NIN Tanking

[Kuroganashi]

NIN is the best Tank for a NON BLM Enemy since Shadows are wiped by "-AGA" spells it is a BIG BIG Weakness of us, Ninjas.

However NIN are also best Tanks 'cuz of our Evasion Bonus and Armor, Even tho it could be PAR with THF's but it is only 10 Less skill 2nd BEST EVA Job in GAME

^^

NIN/DNC is nice to tank because it can "Violent Flourish" the "-AGA" the BLM Mobs do, not 100% Stun as any DNC can tell you, but it works.

for Holding Enmity, CAP Haste (26%) and Dual Wield (50~56%) and Weapon Skill Strong and True.

I hope this have helped some new Ninjas looking for GOOD Advice, Peace

[Tamoa]

Nin does not get Evasion Bonus.

And personally I never go /dnc if I'm tanking. Only for soloing.

[Arcon]

NIN is fourth best Eva job in the game. For many things NIN does tank, Evasion sets are often counterproductive. And it's not the best tank for many things, not just BLM mobs. Also, not just BLM mobs cast AoE spells or have AoE moves, which can also wipe shadows. Also, I hate when people say "aga", sounds like cavemen-speech.

[Khajit]

Taking nin tanking advice from a person who cant figure out how to make migawari work seems counterproductive to improving oneself.

[Ayanoki]

I been ninja tanking roughly 9+ years, in fact I would argue me and a handful of players were some of the first Ninja tanks on Fenrir. Nothing I can see is REALLY wrong with ninja as a tank whole. What most people need to understand is game balance, ninja tanking is a group effort as far as not letting hate bounce around. Ninja can now damage deal tank & evade tank for hate which before was not available. Enmity is a huge thing for building hate, but where it really shines is if you macro it in for PROVOKE. Not sure if everyone uses Enmity gear macro for Provoke, try it out you will gain hate back in a instant no matter how much damage was caused to lose it.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Isn't the expansion that added nin less then 9 years old?

[Greatguardian]

Considering there's an "8th Anniversary" thread in General, the entire game for NAs is much less than 9 years old.

[Khajit]

I been ninja tanking roughly 9+ years, in fact I would argue me and a handful of players were some of the first Ninja tanks on Fenrir. Nothing I can see is REALLY wrong with ninja as a tank whole. What most people need to understand is game balance, ninja tanking is a group effort as far as not letting hate bounce around. Ninja can now damage deal tank & evade tank for hate which before was not available. Enmity is a huge thing for building hate, but where it really shines is if you macro it in for PROVOKE. Not sure if everyone uses Enmity gear macro for Provoke, try it out you will gain hate back in a instant no matter how much damage was caused to lose it.
Wrong on multiple counts.

First off nin tanking today is no more a group effort than any other job tanking discounting a pld without ochain that somehow is starving on mp.
Secondly you don't gain hate via evading. Third of all provoke is crap for overall hate since hate/emnity is actually two things combined. Volatile emnity and cumulative emntiy. Cumulative decays very slowly while VE decays rapidly and is the reason behind hate bouncing about. provoke is prettymuch all VE and the reason why i said before that it's crap is the VE decays at such a rate that the hate from provoke wears off before the animation even finishes. Aka it'suseless Thanks to the 2 second JAdelay you're effectively getting negative emnity.
And can now damage tank? That was half the entire point of nin tanking working. The other half was that nin had shadows. This is barring the nin/brd and nin/drk subtypes which no longer matter as they have been completely nerfed into oblivion.

Nin tanking is really simple. Put on some PROPER DD gear melee it for hate with some enfeebles like yurin put in to reduce tp gain.Use migawari if needed. DD the monster for hate. Wear pdt gear when needed and the same with mdt macros. If you cant melee the mob and deal effective damage then you're out of luck since as mentioned before your ability to tank said mobs like that got nerfed already.
Or if even that is tldr. wear DD gear. DD the monster until it's dead.

[Ayanoki]

Sorry, been playing since NA release around 02? which ROZ came out roughly 03 if I remember right.

[Ayanoki]

Wrong on multiple counts.

First off nin tanking today is no more a group effort than any other job tanking discounting a pld without ochain that somehow is starving on mp.
Secondly you don't gain hate via evading. Third of all provoke is crap for overall hate since hate/emnity is actually two things combined. Volatile emnity and cumulative emntiy. Cumulative decays very slowly while VE decays rapidly and is the reason behind hate bouncing about. provoke is prettymuch all VE and the reason why i said before that it's crap is the VE decays at such a rate that the hate from provoke wears off before the animation even finishes. Aka it'suseless Thanks to the 2 second JAdelay you're effectively getting negative emnity.
And can now damage tank? That was half the entire point of nin tanking working. The other half was that nin had shadows. This is barring the nin/brd and nin/drk subtypes which no longer matter as they have been completely nerfed into oblivion.

Nin tanking is really simple. Put on some PROPER DD gear melee it for hate with some enfeebles like yurin put in to reduce tp gain.Use migawari if needed. DD the monster for hate. Wear pdt gear when needed and the same with mdt macros. If you cant melee the mob and deal effective damage then you're out of luck since as mentioned before your ability to tank said mobs like that got nerfed already.
Or if even that is tldr. wear DD gear. DD the monster until it's dead.
The number 1 hate builder is DAMAGE. Provoke is NOT a hate builder, it ragains hate. Ever voked a mob you were tanking and it never came back cause the other IE damage dealer had it? That is cause you lacked Enmity to get it back. Should try it some times it works wonders. Tanking now is simple and what a shame.. I came from a time when ninja had to hold one mob for hours. DAMAGE DAMAGE DAMAGE.. he who fills the cup first, holds the key to hate.

Just a side note Emnity gear for provoke adds a huge instant hate spike, while yes it goes away instantly it is very useful for getting the mob back on you.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Sorry, been playing since NA release around 02? which ROZ came out roughly 03 if I remember right.ZM and the NA release are virtualy the same, the expansion existed before we got the game.

[Khajit]

Know what gives you back hate faster than that if the DD pulls hate from you in the situation you speak of? Meleeing the mob for another round instead of getting negative enmity.Your CE is capped at that point and all the hate changes is from ve dropping for everyone. What does that mean in the end? It means that the person hitting the fastest is the one maintaining hate overal.

[Ayanoki]

Know what gives you back hate faster than that if the DD pulls hate from you in the situation you speak of? Meleeing the mob for another round instead of getting negative enmity.Your CE is capped at that point and all the hate changes is from ve dropping for everyone. What does that mean in the end? It means that the person hitting the fastest is the one maintaining hate overal.

Very true, I have noticed monks thru the ages gave me the most hate problems. Back in the day when hate was more of a challenge.

[Nightfyre]

I been ninja tanking roughly 9+ years


Enmity is a huge thing for building hate, but where it really shines is if you macro it in for PROVOKE.

Real pro we got here.

Khajit has it right, you'd be better off meleeing. If enmity gear on Voke makes the difference between getting hate back and not, you haven't acted on the mob for at least 30 seconds... or you just got hit with a hate reset, in which case you should be focusing on building CE with damage as opposed to recapping VE fractionally sooner since it'll cap first anyway.

[TRiPP]

Now, let me get this straight, provoke is useless and you should go into full damage? Okay, I can handle that. Understandable, however why then bother using warrior sub job when in most cases the only reason why you would use it would be for provoke? Either people need to get their stuff right or they need to start rewording things.

[Cdryik]

Double Attack and Attack bonus, Mostly. (also bersek, that enhance your attack for a mid-long duration, that is it worth using at start, and warcry for e-peen).

You can't profit from others sub that will make you hit less often by triggering a spell or a ja.

You'de better go with a powerfull job trait that'll help keep the hate and damage (aka double attack).

Your WS can benefit from it also.


In a small group, i prefer /dnc, it's brainless, i can go the lazy way, no food, better eva, i can stick with dual katana trial eva+.



Nexxus - Cerberus

[Arcon]

Berserk and Warcry are worth more than the Attack Bonus trait. And Provoke is useful to get a mob when it's running towards mages/others. You can't attack it quickly if you have to chase behind them. Also, Provoke does, in fact, give good enmity, with some enmity gear provoking gives more hate then the damage you've dealt in that time, especially on any worthwhile content, even more so if you use it strategically (right before another JA or WS, to minimize the delay penalty). And you won't even lose all of it if you have Enmity gear/merits, but only 1800 after 30s. The additional enmity you got will still be there after 30s, in case you use another Provoke.

Having said that, most important enmity during a fight is CE (to hold hate), which is best accumulated by meleeing. Whether or not Provoke is required depends on what you're doing and how the fight goes, but for what it does, it does so very well.

[Nightfyre]

Tripp: Because WAR is your best damage sub. I figured that was readily evident.


And Provoke is useful to get a mob when it's running towards mages/others.
This is true, and pretty much the only time I ever use Provoke.


Also, Provoke does, in fact, give good enmity, with some enmity gear provoking gives more hate then the damage you've dealt in that time, especially on any worthwhile content, even more so if you use it strategically (right before another JA or WS, to minimize the delay penalty). And you won't even lose all of it if you have Enmity gear/merits, but only 1800 after 30s. The additional enmity you got will still be there after 30s, in case you use another Provoke.
However, barring hate resets (which I've already covered) this isn't really the result you'll see in practice. Hate caps, and VE caps very quickly. Chances are the vast majority of that 1800+ VE will go to waste because you'll cap after about 2.5-3k damage assuming neutral enmity. If you're not capped, you should be focusing on building CE as I mentioned previously since it takes longer to cap and you'll naturally accumulate VE in the process.

[Orenwald]

Wrong on multiple counts.

VE decays at such a rate that the hate from provoke wears off before the animation even finishes. Aka it'suseless Thanks to the 2 second JAdelay you're effectively getting negative emnity.


I haven't read all the replies yet, I just wanted to point out the 1 flaw in this statement. at +/- 0 enmity it takes 30 seconds to lose the enmity from provoke, so no it's not a negative enmity ability. stop making yourself look stupid. The rest of this wall of text is more or less correct though.

[Zerich]

it sounds like the OP is posting about the oldschool style of tanking...you know, the one that's not effective anymore.

[scaevola]

charm is a better taunt than provoke

[Greatguardian]

I haven't read all the replies yet, I just wanted to point out the 1 flaw in this statement. at +/- 0 enmity it takes 30 seconds to lose the enmity from provoke, so no it's not a negative enmity ability. stop making yourself look stupid. The rest of this wall of text is more or less correct though.

Provoke is net 0 Enmity in a vacuum, negative enmity in practice because you lose 120 delay of attack rounds in the JA animation/lock.

The post was hyperbole, but the point was correct.

[darkvision]

no one really cares about EVA tanking anymore, if your a DD outting out high numbers rapidly, and can be kept alive then you can tank on that job, thats how the game is atm

[Parriah]

Beating a dead horse : Damage = the king of hate.
Nin with Dual wield and the ass loads of haste with the empy set bonus LOL you should be able to have the mobs attention, until EVERYONE gets to the hate LIMIT then you have a mob rotating around it's rather amusing.

If you want to know what I consider a tank, I'll tell you: Holding a mobs Agro/Threat while mitigating as much damage as possible. THAT is tanking.

[Cdryik]

then you have a mob rotating around it's rather amusing.

From my own experience, enmity merit play a big rôle on this. i gave up my enmity merit for spellcast interrupt and since then, i can get some trouble where the mob is rotating. when i had my enmity merit, i didn't have that kind of problem.
You can guess easily that having some enmity while meleeing on auto-attack (well, mostly from merit, i don't see where you can put enmity stuff without losing some power) enhance greatly your holding hate.

[Arcon]

From my own experience, enmity merit play a big rôle on this. i gave up my enmity merit for spellcast interrupt and since then, i can get some trouble where the mob is rotating. when i had my enmity merit, i didn't have that kind of problem.
You can guess easily that having some enmity while meleeing on auto-attack (well, mostly from merit, i don't see where you can put enmity stuff without losing some power) enhance greatly your holding hate.

Not at all. Full Enmity merits is just +10% Enmity generation. However, at cap that doesn't matter, since every melee swing will recap your hate. So the more people are hitting it, the more it will spin, regardless of merits or gear or anything else.

[Kylei]

DNC has great evasion, I can see SE doing something with DANCING TANKS!

[Ayanoki]

Not at all. Full Enmity merits is just +10% Enmity generation. However, at cap that doesn't matter, since every melee swing will recap your hate. So the more people are hitting it, the more it will spin, regardless of merits or gear or anything else.

Those are more less due to what I call hate spikes, prime example is you have someone who has not touched the mob at all perform a powerful move and turns the mob. These are what I refer to as huge hate spikes. I simply macro in Hate gear with my provoke, just for these causes.

[wish12oz]

Those are more less due to what I call hate spikes, prime example is you have someone who has not touched the mob at all perform a powerful move and turns the mob. These are what I refer to as huge hate spikes. I simply macro in Hate gear with my provoke, just for these causes.

If you were at the hate cap before this 'hate spike' from another player it would turn back to you with your next attack. The real secret to ninja tanking, is capping enmity through damage, and attacking faster then anyone else. Provoke is just an initial action you use to pull a mob off someone else who just pulled it or popped it, or to pull with yourself. It's not useful for gaining or keeping hate.

[Arcon]

Provoke is just an initial action you use to pull a mob off someone else who just pulled it or popped it, or to pull with yourself. It's not useful for gaining or keeping hate.

Unless mages pull hate and the mob pulls away. Provoke is instant, running after it to hit it takes time. Which was my point earlier.

[Kriegsgott]

NIN is the best Tank for a NON BLM Enemy since Shadows are wiped by "-AGA" spells it is a BIG BIG Weakness of us, Ninjas.

However NIN are also best Tanks 'cuz of our Evasion Bonus and Armor, Even tho it could be PAR with THF's but it is only 10 Less skill 2nd BEST EVA Job in GAME

^^

NIN/DNC is nice to tank because it can "Violent Flourish" the "-AGA" the BLM Mobs do, not 100% Stun as any DNC can tell you, but it works.

for Holding Enmity, CAP Haste (26%) and Dual Wield (50~56%) and Weapon Skill Strong and True.

I hope this have helped some new Ninjas looking for GOOD Advice, Peace

BLM's arnt the only one Mobs which can and will do AoE's
Whm's cant cast Diaga or rdms?
never fighted any Mobs like Moblins which can do a AoE move?
just 2 examples for you!

La Vaule (S) - Falsespinner Bhudbrodd
such a nice NM for you doing AoE moves having a High Counter rate

[wish12oz]

Unless mages pull hate and the mob pulls away. Provoke is instant, running after it to hit it takes time. Which was my point earlier.

Attack faster and you won't have that problem.

[Arcon]

Attack faster and you won't have that problem.

Why not? Are you saying to hit it before it moves out of range? Even at capped delay reduction it'll still take you > 1s between your melee rounds, time which the mob has to run away.

[Greatguardian]

Unlock targeting and run ahead of it. Better than losing 2.033898 seconds worth of attack around with provoke.

[Arcon]

Unlock targeting and run ahead of it. Better than losing 2.033898 seconds worth of attack around with provoke.

Maybe we're talking about different things, but in the scenario that plays in my head, you can't run ahead of a mob that's fleeing from you. The time it would take you to catch up (assuming mages are out of AoE range, if not the may as well be standing within melee range) is probably more than 2.033898 seconds.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Chasing after a mob while locked onto it will never work because you will always lag behind it. Unless the mob has enhanced speed and you don't you can typically hit it sooner by unlocking and attempting to run ahead of it (when your model is 'overtaking' the monster's 'body').

[Kuroganashi]

BLM's arnt the only one Mobs which can and will do AoE's
Whm's cant cast Diaga or rdms?
never fighted any Mobs like Moblins which can do a AoE move?
just 2 examples for you!

La Vaule (S) - Falsespinner Bhudbrodd
such a nice NM for you doing AoE moves having a High Counter rate

True, however the mobs that spam AOE Magic are the problem, you are right about WHM and RDM and BRD's but BLM are the ones that spam the most AOE and Most powerful ones too, which is why I mention them, but thanks for Correcting me.

[Boldheart]

Haha... NIN tank can be more beneficial than PLD in situations... as well as PLD over NIN. Depends on the player, and his skill, the gear he uses and how he tanks a mob. Someone said about NIN sucks on BLM type NM's isnt true. There are ways to get your -MDT gear up pretty high and having a good stunner always helps =).

[Tetsujin]

You say voke is useless but... what about pre-level 80+ when everyone isn't hitting hate cap?


This is a *tanking* thread, and people still have to tank when levelling their subjobs or, say, getting their job to level 60 or something. Would it still be useless even in that context?

[Neisan_Quetz]

Less voking more swinging.

[Tetsujin]

sorry, couldn't help but be bothered by this so I went ahead and took a look at Kanican's enmity research. (http://kanican.livejournal.com/13235.html)

Now we all agree that you'll hit hate cap right? that's 10,000 units CE.
So all this extra swinging won't get you extra static hate, it'll only give you that "last action."

Mathematically we can argue that provoke isn't useless at all. It'll generate +1800 VE for the 30 seconds that it's down, which is most likely more you can generate in one action (better a single Job Ability than several, right? Less delay loss.)

Therefore, since VE adds to CE (and they don't share to cap) Provoke is beneficial to a situation with capped hate.

[Arcon]

Therefore, since VE adds to CE (and they don't share to cap) Provoke is beneficial to a situation with capped hate.

How do you mean the bolded part? VE and CE are completely different status values, they don't interact at all. Both CE and VE have their individual caps (both 10,000). And CE doesn't decline like VE does, but only when taking damage.

Only use for Provoke at Hate cap is the part I mentioned before, when a mob is running away from you (to the mages or something) to get it back.

[Tetsujin]

Total Enmity is the combined value between CE and VE. that's what I meant.

[Arcon]

Total Enmity is the combined value between CE and VE. that's what I meant.

Doesn't change the fact that at hate cap, your TE is, well, capped. CE will usually be capped after a short while (VE almost instantly), so the only factor to consider is enmity loss from VE. Provoke doesn't contribute to enmity gain, it's only a small and short (and fast) burst for enmity control.

[Tetsujin]

ah I get where you're coming from.
Dunno why, I assumed that VE wouldn't be capped since it's volatile but I forgot to consider that it builds faster than it decays.

Got it.