Samurai as intended

[Delvish]

I've never been one for cutting cookies and my job choices (SAM/RNG and SCH) reflect that mentality. Since this is the tank tactics forum, I suppose I'll get things started on a discussion on how SE intended SAM to turn out to begin with.

Disclaimer: I am not asking SE to expand upon this potential, nor am I concerned with how SAM tank compares to any other tanking class or off-class. Simply put, if there is a situation and I am now the only available class, how do we pull it off?

[Kuroganashi]

SAM was initially meant to Tank and NIN to DD

With Kannagi they made NIN a fairly well DD but now SAM needs to be improved so it can has better Tanking odds and Survival rate would go up by a lot

[Neisan_Quetz]

Sam doesn't need shit and roflstomps Nin on dififcult mobs (outside Abyssea).

[Tamoa]

SAM was initially meant to Tank and NIN to DD

With Kannagi they made NIN a fairly well DD but now SAM needs to be improved so it can has better Tanking odds and Survival rate would go up by a lot

Only reason nin can tank better than sam in abyssea is this nice little thing called crit based ws, and add the right atmas to that. But abyssea isn't everything in this game.

Also, I'd say that sam survival rate >>>>> nin survival rate. Capping -PDT and -MDT is easy as sam. As nin, not so easy.

[Dragonlord]

Only reason nin can tank better than sam in abyssea is this nice little thing called crit based ws, and add the right atmas to that. But abyssea isn't everything in this game.

Also, I'd say that sam survival rate >>>>> nin survival rate. Capping -PDT and -MDT is easy as sam. As nin, not so easy.

-MDT is easy to cap on any job w/ shell V on, so that doesn't matter. There are a lot of -PDT all job items in game too, dark rings and twilight neck are -17%, nin is on metallon backpiece for another -4% and i'm sure there's more.

Quite simply though, shadows>third eye, which is where sam falls short on tanking. It can't mitigate damage as well as nin. Now on NMs where any DD can tank, surely sam can as well. But there's a reason nin tanking caught on in the first place, and kannagi now allows nins to maintain hate better. Sam makes a decent tank or support tank on lesser NMs but other jobs overshadow it through dmg mitigation or dmg dealt.

[Delvish]

Lets also remember Zanshin's boost to Seigan (and coincidentally Unkai Kabuto +2's Seigan augmentation). We'd have to find a good medium between -dmg and + Zanshin boosts, such as the difference between the Earth trial GK, or the 100% Zanshin rate GK.

[Patriclis]

SAM was used as a DD by the community and has been geared towards that now with more TP + Weaponskill things, allowing it to put out a significant amount of damage.

NIN was used as a tank by the community and has been geared towards that with more Enmity and evasion gear and other things that focus on tanking.

It's irrelevant how a job was "intended" to be when it was made 5 years ago... what matters is how things are played now.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Just do lolsoboro/dmc with +85 eva like I do. ^^

[Nightfyre]

Also, I'd say that sam survival rate >>>>> nin survival rate. Capping -PDT and -MDT is easy as sam. As nin, not so easy.

It's true that SAM has greater flexibility with MDT gear, but NIN can get 26% MDT without too much effort now even ignoring weapon slots. Only expensive item is Mollusca Mantle, maybe Lieutenant's Sash (time-wise) if you didn't do much Assault. Their PDT options are only inferior to SAM's in one slot (legs, Gavial/Hydra +1 vs Darksteel +1) unless you're also factoring in Eisen Grip for some reason. The more expensive/time-consuming items (Arhat's +1, augmented rings/earrings, Jingang Greaves, Flume Belt, Mollusca Mantle if you can't cap with Shadow) are identical.

[Dragonlord]

Lets also remember Zanshin's boost to Seigan (and coincidentally Unkai Kabuto +2's Seigan augmentation). We'd have to find a good medium between -dmg and + Zanshin boosts, such as the difference between the Earth trial GK, or the 100% Zanshin rate GK.

You bring up a good pint with the counter rate, i wasn't aware of the AF3 head's effect, however i can't find an activation %. As for the zanshin, that 100% proc sword comes from PW so its the 1% of sams you'd be talking about, not very practical. In addition, this hit can still miss. I don't see how zanshin factors into sam tanking other than increasing hitrate from 95%->98%ish.

[Babekeke]

maybe Lieutenant's Sash (time-wise) if you didn't do much Assault.

Colossus's mantle is another fairly easy option to get in the back slot.

[Delvish]

You bring up a good pint with the counter rate, i wasn't aware of the AF3 head's effect, however i can't find an activation %. As for the zanshin, that 100% proc sword comes from PW so its the 1% of sams you'd be talking about, not very practical. In addition, this hit can still miss. I don't see how zanshin factors into sam tanking other than increasing hitrate from 95%->98%ish.

With the new zanshin updates to SAM, I have almost completely remerited and geared myself accordingly. With Hasso, we now have a chance to hit with Zanshin even if we hit (Ikishoten merits are applied to the second hit too so you can get damn near a triple attacks worth of TP). Seigan on the other hand, got an increased chance to counter based on Zanshin. With enough Zanshin, we are almost looking at a GK wielding MNK tank, and this would be our bread and butter of tanking.

[Tamoa]

It's true that SAM has greater flexibility with MDT gear, but NIN can get 26% MDT without too much effort now even ignoring weapon slots. Only expensive item is Mollusca Mantle, maybe Lieutenant's Sash (time-wise) if you didn't do much Assault. Their PDT options are only inferior to SAM's in one slot (legs, Gavial/Hydra +1 vs Darksteel +1) unless you're also factoring in Eisen Grip for some reason. The more expensive/time-consuming items (Arhat's +1, augmented rings/earrings, Jingang Greaves, Flume Belt, Mollusca Mantle if you can't cap with Shadow) are identical.

You're absolutely right, sam has greater flexibility with -MDT gear than nin. I think that's what I meant, it just came out wrong. :( I also totally forgot about Mollusca Mantle, although I personally don't think it's worth 2.5-3mil. I'd probably get one though if nin was my main and the job I played 95% of the time. To be honest I think the reason I prefer sam tank to nin a lot of the time has to do with the people I have been playing with for the last 2+ years.

[Ritsuka]

ya sam was the new tank not ninja. I'm not sure what they can honestly to sam tanking expect maybe letting it take more damage with out getting killed so fast. or maybe give it another 3rd eye type ablity sense ninja does have ichi and ni maybe make something like that for sam.

[Shinzonx]

yeah sam needs more of a role in abyssea no one hardly use it but to dd in party you dont need a sam if you got a nin tanking for you cause nin can use some ws sam can that can be proced so what bother havin a sam and nin speed now u dont need the ability to give them TP like back in the day where it matter cause no whm's haste people any more so like maybe give sam more weapon choices or job abilities that can proc only sam 50+ can do

[JRoc]

First off, wtf was that gibberish the above poster contributed? Ever hear of punctuation or proof-reading? Talk about a run-on sentence...

Now this is just my two cents. Go easy on me guys...

Sam was never intended to be a tank or a heavy dd. What is sam's greatest strength? The rate at which it gains TP. What is the easiest ability sam can stack on gear that compliments its greatest strength? Store TP. Sam pumps out weaponskills (inside or outsided abyssea) at an insane rate. They still hold the crown for most Skillchains opened or closed. That ability to open or close a skillchain, and that ability alone is the reason for sams existence. It's bread and butter, if you will. Add an experienced blm who is familiar with magic bursts to the mix, and you've got a deadly combo. This tactic is rarely seen anymore except for those "old-school" players who know how to win your "tougher than average" BCNM.

While I'm here, I'll attempt to touch the topic of nin..

Nin was never intended to be a tank or a dd. In my opinion nin was to become a stealthier version of rdm. Let's not forget that debuffing (or enfeebling) a mob is still to this day, one of nin's strongest abilities. How many times have you whms, schs, and rdms cast a debuff on a mob only for it to read in the chat log: "debuff has no effect on <t>."? Enough times I'm sure that that question made you all /grin. The nin elemental wheel is awesome for mages who rely heavily on nukes. Just in general, when you think of the traditional ninja, its strength lies in stealth and takes pride in its ability to go undetected by its target. When things get hairy, they use illusions and shadows to make their escape. To sum it up, I think nin was intended to be supporting role, much like rdm, but without having to rely on mp as their main source.

While the above mentioned is my opinion of what roles said jobs should play, I completely understand that the community has lead it into a totally different direction. I have both jobs leveled to 95, and I can say that I play sam as a heavy dd and nin as a blink tank. I'd love a chance to play both jobs as I believe were intended, but am aware that if I tried, I'd either be laughed or voted out of the party/event, or simply asked to come as another job. So, the end result? I conform and reluctantly fit into the cookie-cutter mold laid out before me.

[Elanabelle]

SAM/WAR can tank just fine, but really only shines as a tank when you merit Third Eye recast and your Parrying Skill reaches its maximum. Unfortunately, people are often unable to think outside the box, and they always merit only Meditate and Store TP on SAM. Also, skilling-up Parrying Skill is a pain in the butt, and (unless I've not caught on to an efficient way to skill it up) laboriously slow.
If you have tons of support as a SAM tank, just use Hasso and damage-deal like an animal in-between Provokes. If you lack for support, use Seigan/Third Eye, and swap-in Damage-reduction equipment when your Third Eye drops.

Ninja is still likely to always be a better tank if the mob uses single-target nukes and/or multiple Utsusemi shadows are able to block some of the mob's nastier TP moves. You could do SAM/NIN, but that's a subpar job combination in my opinion. Having either Hasso or Seigan up will gimp your recast timers on Utsusemi,. Your damage output is gimped on SAM/NIN by lacking Berserk, Warcry, and Attack Bonus. Also, NIN simply gets more shadows per cast.

Bottom line, SAM can definitely tank, but it's typically not the best option. Personally, I think it's best to carry your tanking equipment on SAM at all times, just in case it's needed. However, despite my preparedness, I don't actually end up tanking on SAM very often. If you want to tank "right" on SAM, as I stated before, you gotta level up Parrying Skill and merit Third Eye, in my opinion.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Parrying is floored against most VT mobs, or pretty much close to it... TE merits lost a lot of luster after seigan's introduction.

[Alderin]

What are you talking about, I have accidently tanked a handful of NM's on RNG/SAM due to overaggro with ws spam (in abyssea). I can only imagine the abilities SAM main has..

@Tamoa - Your kidding yourself if you think SAM has a better survival rate to NIN. Utsusemi > Third Eye - Shadows block single target spells, Third Eye doesn't. That is one small example - not to mention NIN gets 9 shadows every 30 seconds. SAM gets lucky if they get 3-4. not to mention NIN's A- Evasion skill in comparison to SAM's B+. Sure gear can even that out - but why would you stack evasion when a job doesn't need to due to natural skill.

As for PDT/MDT- gear, if you actually need to (which you don't really, due to the use of shadows) you can get just as much PDT/MDT on NIN as you can on SAM.

SAM is a better DD outside abyssea then NIN. NIN (in voidwatch) is quite a useless tank against NM's that matter (ie. Voidwatch).

Leave the NIN's and MNK's to shine in abyssea, let the PLD's tank in VW, and let SAM be played how it has been played for 5 years - DD.

As for NIN's "Designed as a DD" theory - I agree with JRoc. That is rubbish. NIN was a supportive role similar to RDM. Debuff, elemental wheel, & shadows so it didn't get 1-shot if it somehow pulled hate. A Ninja is an assassin by history. They were trained to sneak around, kill the target and escape. Not stand there with guns (or shirukens) blazing and kill everything.

[Neisan_Quetz]

What are you fighting that still uses only single target spells?

Third eye completely negates multihit Tp moves, Utsusemei doesn't. It also doesn't get wiped by AoE magic.

[Alderin]

What are you fighting that still uses only single target spells?

Third eye completely negates multihit Tp moves, Utsusemei doesn't. It also doesn't get wiped by AoE magic.

Hmmm if I recall correctly - even Aello still uses single target from time to time. That is just one small example of the list that is waist deep.

Third eye negates multi-hit TP yes - but are you blind? Unless a multi-hit does more then 4-5 hits - utsusemi negates it as well ! Funny that. 99% of them at least.

As for not getting wiped with AoE - this is true, but once again - it doesn't stop Magic from getting through! So kind of a mute point to be honest. A well geared / skilled Ninja will *NOT* have shadows down unless they were stripped by an AOE or simply lasted the 5 hits - oh wait Utsusemi: Ni is back up!

I good NIN would be able to tell you that they barely have to even use :Ichi because their 5 shadows will last them the 25 second recast timer. Ichi is purely a backup, and barely actually used.

As for Third eye - you could be really unlucky and get it stripped off you in 2 hits. That's too bad - now your standing there blood tanking something for another 25 seconds..

This is also not forgetting Migawari when the circumstance arises.

As for solo play (which the point here is survivability - so it was bound to be brought up), NIN/DNC is far more superior to SAM/DNC in every way. I would love to watch a SAM solo a mob even as easy as Briareas on SAM/DNC.

One last point I will make - a mob is at 5% and you need to hold it for whatever reason.. SAM's back tanking skill is totally rubbish. A few hits and your blood tanking for another 20 seconds - with no ability to parry or counter. NIN? That's not an issue - you have 9 shadows each with a 25 sec recast (with good gear & basic spell haste).

Does NIN have weaknesses? Sure, AOE spells, MNK mobs that counter and rip shadows fast (due to dual wield hit rate), mob's elemental spikes (due to dual wield hit rate). Can SAM tank? Sure, in some cases. More survivability then NIN? No

[Neisan_Quetz]

I said only single target, not also single target.

SE+TE can completely negate multiple attacks (30+) in rapid succession, utsu doesn't come close in such a situation (HF for example)

You have to be beyond unlucky for a fresh TE to vanish after 2 hits. I've almost never seen it on Sam main and usually see it on rare occasions /Sam.

Both that their benefits but for most 2hDD /Sam > /nin for damage mitigation.

Having greater damage mitigation doesn't matter as long as you don't die, that's why Pld tanking has fallen out of favor.

[Alderin]

I said only single target, not also single target.

SE+TE can completely negate multiple attacks (30+) in rapid succession, utsu doesn't come close in such a situation (HF for example)

You have to be beyond unlucky for a fresh TE to vanish after 2 hits. I've almost never seen it on Sam main and usually see it on rare occasions /Sam.

Both that their benefits but for most 2hDD /Sam > /nin for damage mitigation.

Having greater damage mitigation doesn't matter as long as you don't die, that's why Pld tanking has fallen out of favor.

Also / Only... irrelivent. That single target nuke is going to hit a SAM harder then it will hit a NIN (which isn't at all) providing they are well geared & skilled. Unless a mob chainspells - or for some unlucky reason you cannot cast Ni inbetween, a NIN will *NOT* get hit by a single target spell. (once again, providing they have a brain).

As for negate multiple attacks - yes, NIN also has a JA for that - it's a thing called Issekigan and more then terrible Parry skill. If you have been a NIN for a long time - your parry will be nearly or should be capped.

Beyond unlucky? No. Unlucky? Yes. It happens.

I will agree, for 2hDD /SAM > /NIN but we aren't talking about subjobs here. If I recall correctly, this whole thread has been about SAM being about to tank, not WAR/SAM, DRK/SAM, hell even RNG/SAM.. Yes Seigan > Third Eye is more effective then shadows but once again - this isn't a topic of subjobs, it is SAM main's ability to tank. While it exists, I'm sorry, you are kidding yourself if you think SAM is more efficient at damage mitigation then NIN.

PLD tanking is not out of favour. Hmm Voidwatch mean anything to you? If you're not a PLD and want to tank, you can go home. If I recall this original topic was originally brought up regarding stuff outside Abyssea.

I will paint it black and blue for you... NIN/WAR > SAM/Anything for any and all tanking task. I have seen Voidwatch adds eat a SAM alive, yet a NIN can stand there and hold it for the whole fight with very minimal support.

[Dragonlord]

SE+TE can completely negate multiple attacks (30+) in rapid succession, utsu doesn't come close in such a situation (HF for example)

You have to be beyond unlucky for a fresh TE to vanish after 2 hits. I've almost never seen it on Sam main and usually see it on rare occasions /Sam.

Both that their benefits but for most 2hDD /Sam > /nin for damage mitigation.

30+? I've barely ever seen 5 anticipates proc when /sam. That is simply a totally unrealistic number. Also, TE is on a 30 second timer that can't be reduced by haste/fast cast. Utsu has 2 spells each giving 3(more when main nin) shadows who's timer can be reduced to half. I'm not saying DDs should cast utsu:ichi, but claiming TE is better than shadows because it *can* block more hits on rare occasions is a bad example.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Multiple mobs/HF, I've seen a pic of it somewhere.

Pld tank isn't necessary for good VW groups. Of course if you only do pickups get a prd tank.

Parry Skill wut, Sam has A- parry... same as Nin main..

Sam doesn't have to be more efficient at damage mitigation to be a better tank than Nin. Pld is the most efficient Tank for damage mitigation and look how popular that is for good groups.

[Alderin]

Multiple mobs/HF, I've seen a pic of it somewhere.

Pld tank isn't necessary for good VW groups. Of course if you only do pickups get a prd tank.

Parry Skill wut, Sam has A- parry... same as Nin main..

Sam doesn't have to be more efficient at damage mitigation to be a better tank than Nin. Pld is the most efficient Tank for damage mitigation and look how popular that is for good groups.

You obviously don't read.

But yes I would love to see this screenshot of mitigating 30+ attacks.. try 6-7 if you are amazingly lucky.

Aello? Uptala? Pil? Sorry but unless your just spamming the proc once and zerg til it's dead method (while capping red as fast as you can before everyone dies) - you're going to need a PLD. If not for the main, you will need to hold the adds in zilart. MOST voidwatch groups will epicly fail without a PLD.


Parry Skill wut, Sam has A- parry... same as Nin main..
Issekigan.... Issekigan....Issekigan... Should I say again? Issekigan. Hell I will even quote it.

yes, NIN also has a JA for that - it's a thing called Issekigan and more then terrible Parry skill. (which does not mean "nin has A-" it means that a skilled/not-gimped ninja who has skilled parry)

Yes SAM & NIN have equal parry skill. Never brought that up or denied that fact. However with capped parry skill, and this JA active - you parry more then you lose a shadow on half the mobs. If we are talking about "hundred fist" (so I am assuming a mob like Chloris yeah? since nothing harder uses HF at the moment). I can 100% guarentee that your third eye will be down before my 5 shadows from Ni will be with this JA (ill quote again - Issekigan) on a NM like Chloris.



Sam doesn't have to be more efficient at damage mitigation to be a better tank than Nin. Pld is the most efficient Tank for damage mitigation and look how popular that is for good groups.
"Good groups" in voidwatch use a well rounded party, with solid damage, widespread list of procs, and the most efficient TANK when it comes to damage mitigation (ie. a PLD). One PLD opens up a lot of slots that you would otherwise have to use healers / refreshers. Btw - temp item spamming isn't tanking.


Look I will put it down to this...
Let's remove subjobs for a second.. Forget about them for one minute... You also don't have a WHM.. Bare basics - who will be able to survive the longest out of a PLD/0, NIN/0, SAM/0 on a standard DC-T mob. No complex variables here. Lets assume this mob has 9999999HP for argument's sake, so it will last as long as the job can stay alive.. Assume all jobs are well geared. The mob is a standard mob, melee's once per attack round, sometimes DA, throws the odd nuke, -ga... whatever. Standard mob.

The order will be PLD > NIN > SAM.

-A skilled PLD could stand there and watch the mob melee keeping themselves alive forever - assumably.
-A skilled NIN will not get hit by melee. Not get hit by single target spells. Not get hit by a standard TP moves. Only a random -ga spell can effectively hurt them, if you make full use of NIN's JA's and debuffs.
-A SAM will use Seigan > TE, get hit every 4-5 hits (to be generous to the SAM, try every 3), will eat single target spells, will eat -ga spells.

No. A SAM has much less survivability then a NIN.

Going to bed. enjoy.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Most VW groups suck and need a Prd. You can just stop right there.

Bring better support and stop using shitty support as a reason for needing Prd.

Lolwut, not counting a Whm? No shit Prd is gonna last the longest.


EDIT: Aside for tanking adds, that's the biggest use for Prd.

[Brolic]

all this talk about tanking and nobody that vere mnks shits on; mnk, plds and sams?

[Neisan_Quetz]

Totally need that Prd and Nin tank for Pil/Kaggen didn't you hear? "Good" groups have to bring Prd or they're doomed to fail.

/sarcasm

[Daniel_Hatcher]

What's a "prd" when it's at home?

[Neisan_Quetz]

Something I dress up my mannequin with.

[scaevola]

Less talking about /WAR tanking, more testing on how Counterstance interacts with Seigan/TE.

NIN/MNK falls apart because you can't counter with shadows up, but you can counter and not lose TE by Seigan's very design, so ??????

[Alderin]

Less talking about /WAR tanking, more testing on how Counterstance interacts with Seigan/TE.

NIN/MNK falls apart because you can't counter with shadows up, but you can counter and not lose TE by Seigan's very design, so ??????

NIN/MNK has even more tanking potential. Don't know why your using that as an argument. Having counterstance active while recasting shadows means you are very unlikely to get spell interrupt during an already fast Utsusemi recast when shadows drop.

[Neisan_Quetz]

If you can counterstance tank it at that point you're better off bringing a better DD than Nin and having them /mnk (or just bring a Mnk).

Haven't tested Kabuto+2 and counter rate/does it stack with stance, will try and get around to it sometime before the year ends.

[Kuroganashi]

Only reason nin can tank better than sam in abyssea is this nice little thing called crit based ws, and add the right atmas to that. But abyssea isn't everything in this game.

Also, I'd say that sam survival rate >>>>> nin survival rate. Capping -PDT and -MDT is easy as sam. As nin, not so easy.

yet a good NIN doesn't get hit, so it is a Variable if the NIN gets hit or not and if the Enemy is better tanked as a NIN or SAM or MNK or w/e

i.e. TURUL a lot easier on MNK than it is on NIN (Thanks to the Counter Rate / Guard / PDT / MDT) , however some mobs are better tanked as a Blink Tank or EVA tank rather than Blood tank, Wouldn't ya agree my dear?)

[Kuroganashi]

Less talking about /WAR tanking, more testing on how Counterstance interacts with Seigan/TE.

NIN/MNK falls apart because you can't counter with shadows up, but you can counter and not lose TE by Seigan's very design, so ??????

/MNK be nice for when nin came out, however, nowdays we got something called "Yonin" adds Counter+ and Emperyan armor +2 also Auguments that Counter Rate, so it would add a bit more but not enough to make a huge difference.

[Tamoa]

yet a good NIN doesn't get hit, so it is a Variable if the NIN gets hit or not and if the Enemy is better tanked as a NIN or SAM or MNK or w/e

i.e. TURUL a lot easier on MNK than it is on NIN (Thanks to the Counter Rate / Guard / PDT / MDT) , however some mobs are better tanked as a Blink Tank or EVA tank rather than Blood tank, Wouldn't ya agree my dear?)

Actually no, I don't agree, seeing as for over 2 years I've been playing with a damn good sam (and war after abyssea was released) who pretty much blood tanks everything. 99% of the time I'm the one responsible for keeping him alive and status ailment-free. But I will admit that my views on war or sam tanking v/s nin tanking has been heavily influenced by this.

[Brolic]

yet a good NIN doesn't get hit, so it is a Variable if the NIN gets hit or not and if the Enemy is better tanked as a NIN or SAM or MNK or w/e

i.e. TURUL a lot easier on MNK than it is on NIN (Thanks to the Counter Rate / Guard / PDT / MDT) , however some mobs are better tanked as a Blink Tank or EVA tank rather than Blood tank, Wouldn't ya agree my dear?)

not in the slightest, with the infinite mp of minkin or vw temps mobs are best tanked by the job that will kill it the fastest

[scaevola]

yet a good NIN doesn't get hit, so it is a Variable if the NIN gets hit or not and if the Enemy is better tanked as a NIN or SAM or MNK or w/e

i.e. TURUL a lot easier on MNK than it is on NIN (Thanks to the Counter Rate / Guard / PDT / MDT) , however some mobs are better tanked as a Blink Tank or EVA tank rather than Blood tank, Wouldn't ya agree my dear?)

None of that has anything to do with the fact that you can't counter with shadows up, but you CAN theoretically counter with Third Eye up. Furthermore, the better the NIN, the less useful Counterstance becomes, but a Seigan-using SAM is always going to have windows where she's vulnerable, making /MNK useful even if she doesn't benefit from Counterstance while TE's active.

I was screwing around a bit with SAM/MNK and it feels like I'm countering a whole bunch without losing Third Eye, but I don't know if that's because of Counterstance or the Zanshin buff. Just occurred to me, though (which shows you how much thought I've been putting into this question): we ought to be able to get an answer pretty easily by just using Third Eye without Seigan and seeing if we get Counterstance counters that don't strip TE.

[Delvish]

Man, gone for 3 days on honeymoon and this thread takes off.

Let me just add that Zanshin is now essential for SAM tanking, a thought that has barely been mentioned until these last few posts. Before you run your comparisons, let's make sure we are including the full potential of SAM tank (Zanshin, Seigan, Kabuto +2, TE+zanshin merits) because if you aren't going all in, you aren't going to tank even remotely close to any of the above.

[scaevola]

te merits bro

[Neisan_Quetz]

Zanshin merits are only 1.25% Zanshin rate aka mostly a waste of merits. Depending on GK (namely masa/amano) you can 5 hit with 5/5 STP merits and new STP options, med recast is also still a fairly solid choice as long as you use them productively. If not then go ahead and merit TE.

[Brolic]

can u 5 hit @ 26haste with masa? i haven't looked at sam since 75?

[Neisan_Quetz]

25% iirc, need usu feet.

[Delvish]

I'm terrible with using Meditate on time, so I went with STP and Zanshin to capitalize on those adjustments.