Need for DPS - which job is the most damaging? [Archive]

Arcon

12-02-2011, 08:44 PM

I don't see any mage jobs getting close to heavy DDs. How do you figure SCH is in there? Is Kaustra that much better than any other nuke they have? I didn't play around with it much, but from what I've seen it's by no means spectacular.

Anyways, it'll always depend on the mob too, and whether "pure damage" works in the first place (as in, if survival is an issue). WAR, SAM and DRG should all be up there with the best DDs, not sure how MNK compares these days.

This thread has great flame potential. I can see it going places.

Sharnak

12-02-2011, 08:51 PM

I don't see any mage jobs getting close to heavy DDs. How do you figure SCH is in there? Is Kaustra that much better than any other nuke they have? I didn't play around with it much, but from what I've seen it's by no means spectacular.
.

I also never think it's that powerful until i see it's can kill Melo Melo in one shot (Yes with DoT) even Melo Melo have very powerful regen when in shell also can't beat it's DoT. BTW as you say it's just up to mob i'm totally agree, also it's up to condition of setup you do on each job also. such as subjob, time to prepare, item use, ect.
Which i choose Blu, Sch, Sam sicne this 3 can just go in and start 2 hr to do that dmg with no need any TP storage or can just use it's ja to get it. and it's very potent in short time. =D BTW again as i say it's just IMO

On the right time on the right situation and right condition, RDM with Chainspell also can be one most powerful DD also.

Gokku

12-02-2011, 09:28 PM

Classikal

12-03-2011, 01:00 AM

DD Tanks -
Monk and War , War out dmgs all * with ukko* save for a mythic drg. Monks DPS is nigh impossible to top even with our aftermath gimped on VS.

Straight DD
Mythic Drg
Empy War * mythic sam with a 99 wep*
Empy Monk * with hate* , Sam * with empy and great gear*
Nin * kannagi* and assuming proper gear
Nin / monk
Drg * with drakes*
Blu / Dnc * both empy* , extremely well geared O chain + w/e sword pld on any fast hitting mob/mobs
Etc...

on any mob that can be countered Monk and War will be king as long as they have hate , monk more so just cuz its less likely to instantly die.

That's a pretty one-sided list there. You don't even mention DRK. Now granted DRK isn't as high up on the chain as it used to be, but a good DRK should be able to keep up a respectable pace just fine. I use LVL. 90 Redemption and I feel I carry my weight just fine. My WS's only average about 2-3K with spikes of upwards to 4k in VW, but I make up for it in DoT.

ODD with Scythe is really nice. I break 1k-1300/1400 crits a lot, upwards to 1600/1700 depending on buffs. Give me haste and double march and those ODD's add up really nicely.

EDIT: My signature is a lucky double ODD proc on Qilin, Redemption Aftermath + AF+2 DRK set bonus proccing,

Rewyen

12-03-2011, 01:32 AM

Just because I see no one else saying it :P
A well skilled and well equipped RNG (Mithra especially) can deal sick amounts of damage at later levels in short bursts, but most tend to not classify it as a heavy DD since it's not really a front line job, which is true, but still, just wanna recognize all the RNGs out there.

Kuroganashi

12-03-2011, 02:02 AM

Definately depends on armor but in DPS I believe WAR RNG COR MNK Emp , SAM NIN DRK as 2nd

But it all depends on Armor if you counting a NIN With Kannagi , if you Aftermath lv.3 and Hundread Fists , you can possibly out DD Some jobs and be surprised, but it is all Depending if it procs or not

Tests show that WAR RNG COR MNK gets Strongest WS DMG however they are slow on hitting which gives other "Fast Hitting" jobs a Chance to catch up and PAR with DMG or get close to it

Delvish

12-03-2011, 02:31 AM

I also never think it's that powerful until i see it's can kill Melo Melo in one shot (Yes with DoT) even Melo Melo have very powerful regen when in shell also can't beat it's DoT. BTW as you say it's just up to mob i'm totally agree, also it's up to condition of setup you do on each job also. such as subjob, time to prepare, item use, ect.
Which i choose Blu, Sch, Sam sicne this 3 can just go in and start 2 hr to do that dmg with no need any TP storage or can just use it's ja to get it. and it's very potent in short time. =D BTW again as i say it's just IMO

On the right time on the right situation and right condition, RDM with Chainspell also can be one most powerful DD also.
With the right gear, skill levels and Atma, SCH can supremely out do WARs during Tabula Rasa. Just for example, I was out with a group killing Chigoe in A-Altepa. Pulled the entire area worth (I had phalanx, shock spikes, and stoneskin to stay alive) but the WARs didn't even have a chance to engage before the DOT began knocking them out very quickly. AoE, I was hitting them for 2k+ with potent DoT. Additionally, since it was DoT kill, we got pearl light for it. Just have to cap Azure first and you will get an extra ISL box in the group 90% of the time. It was great fun.

Dragonlord

12-03-2011, 02:48 AM

With the right gear, skill levels and Atma, SCH can supremely out do WARs during Tabula Rasa. Just for example, I was out with a group killing Chigoe in A-Altepa. Pulled the entire area worth (I had phalanx, shock spikes, and stoneskin to stay alive) but the WARs didn't even have a chance to engage before the DOT began knocking them out very quickly. AoE, I was hitting them for 2k+ with potent DoT. Additionally, since it was DoT kill, we got pearl light for it. Just have to cap Azure first and you will get an extra ISL box in the group 90% of the time. It was great fun.

Blu does 6k+ with one spell aoe, that doesn't make it the greatest DD. Useful, yes. But this debate seems more about damaging 1 mob. Any aoe move can beat a single target if there's enough targets to hit.

Emp wars and mnks are pretty top notch. Mythic drg would probably win but there's so few (if any) that exist its impossible to really test. I have to vouch that drakes drg will beat kannagi nins though. I've never come close to losing to a nin on damage on my drg.

@kuroganashi - how can cor be on top tier? i haven't seen many DD cors lately but wildfire's damage falls off pretty fast out of abyssea, can it really keep up w/ emp war/mnks?

Delvish

12-03-2011, 02:58 AM

Blu does 6k+ with one spell aoe, that doesn't make it the greatest DD. Useful, yes. But this debate seems more about damaging 1 mob. Any aoe move can beat a single target if there's enough targets to hit.

You have a good point with BLU, seen thunderbolt oneshot all but maybe 2-3 of them at a time, and it isn't 2hr reliant. It does sadden me that our 2hr has become our staple with crackbrava and kaustra, but I'll take what I can get. As far as single-target goes, Kaustra also does significantly more damage single target (I think I've seen as high as 6k) plus the DoT after-effect. Either way, in a zerg match it certainly puts us up there on the map.

Taint2

12-03-2011, 04:07 AM

Support lvls dictate which jobs/weapons rank where.

Haste/Marches/Misers/Tactical/Chaos and other buffs change greatly influence who is the top DD.

Dragonlord

12-03-2011, 04:28 AM

You have a good point with BLU, seen thunderbolt oneshot all but maybe 2-3 of them at a time, and it isn't 2hr reliant.

True, but charged whisker does more and is generally what blus cleave with. No stun but higher damage.

Granted i don't see many nuking schs around either, lol, so i can't say i know first hand the power of kaustra. But i did try it out on the test server and i can't see it coming close to any decent ukko war especially w/ outside buffs. Now if you're counting the added damage other DDs are dealing because of embrava as your damage, that's a different story. But you can cast it on the DDs and leave party so it's still kind of irrelevant.

@taint2, generally you'd consider any standard buff for this kind of analysis. If one DD is getting march/march/haste, all are.

Manuelbravo

12-03-2011, 04:41 AM

Everyone has alot of great points as well as views, however a dd strategy isn't about just going in seeing how much dmg you can dish out and pray that the support can keep up. In some situations it works yet dealing dmg is also based on dmg made in the long run. By this I mean it's useless if you die right off the bat. Dragoons have an advantage in a way with proper haste sets and timimng. They can deal more dmg over time as well as get out of danger with proper enmity - gear and Super Jump. Drk's, Sam's, rng's all can and most dd's as well as magetypes I've seen play take this for granted. Specially in VW and WoE.

DRG's Pros: If you have relic weapon as well as Angons can be made as a great support job for defense down and with proper macros can deal damage, loose enmity and jump back into battle with a less chance of dieing then if a sam or drk goes in and doesntknow when to zerg. A Drg teamed up with a sam can do constant light on a mob if done properly.

DRG's Cons: (Based on drg's who don't know how to pace themselves) They can be a big burdon if they dont watch out for the dmg output while their tanks can't keep up...in a way that goes for all DD's...

TRUST and Pace your self when dealling Dmg if you want to live longer and be less of a burden...

Aana

12-03-2011, 05:42 AM

SOOOO dependent on what buffs your DDs get and the level/stats of the mob in question.

And no offense to the mnks of the world, but 100 fists doesnt really mean jack when virtually any DD can cap 80% haste or darn close without batting an eye. All 100 fists does is reduce delay to the hardcap of 20% of your base delay. Haste etc will not breach that cap. Its basically just 80% haste which EVERY DD can reach with proper buffs/gear.

Buffs make such a difference. You give everyone miser's role and save TP atmacite with capped haste in VW, and every 2hander has a 2-3 hit build. Suddenly the DD with the strongest WS wins when you have 100TP again before your WS animation finishes. Take away all the save TP and the jobs with more raw DoT from hitting stuff picks up the slack. High level mobs will need more atk so jobs like war and dark do very well. Lower def mobs, jobs with less native atk/atk buffs pick up the pace like drg. (insert every other possible factor for DD output here)

So many factors a simple 1-20 ranking doesnt do anyone any justice.

What assumptions are we making? Best possible mathmatical potential? (best weapon/relic/mythic/empy, best armor, best buffs, no human error etc) or more of a 'joe shmo's ranking' that would answer the best 'general' dd class that most new people are asking about. "What job class kicks butt!" kinda list which would be aimed at an avg Joe playing. Are we talking about a general burn the zone down hypothetical super exp style event running over trashy mobs? Are we talking about zerging the toughest of the tough mobs in the game like AV zerg type events? Are we talking about abyssea/Voidwatch with crazy buffs/meds at your disposal?

This question is so friggin loaded and after playing for ~8 years i am sick and tired of the constant DD rank and file pecking order people try to make. There is no "in the end there can be only 1!!!11!!" DD class. To many mob types. To many gear/weapons. To many buffs. To many fight lengths. To many differences between players and their resources. To many variables.

The best DD is the one that knows how damage works and applies it while having access to the best gear. If you have access to gear and can use accurate knowledge of the damage system in creating gear sets and then apply it swifty and effectively in-game, you can wipe the floor with almost anyone regardless of the job. It is shocking what you can pull off on a crappy DD job just by understanding how to maximize its effectiveness, let alone a job designed to kill things.

Deadvinta

12-03-2011, 06:52 AM

Blu does 6k+ with one spell aoe, that doesn't make it the greatest DD. Useful, yes. But this debate seems more about damaging 1 mob. Any aoe move can beat a single target if there's enough targets to hit.

If single target is the issue, then BLU can use Convergence to both condense the spell to one target and get even more M.Damage and MACC. Sure, that becomes a 10-minute dependent spike damage, But it's a 6k+ spike nonetheless right? Plus then the BLU can just go out and spam Quadratic and Goblin Rush for 1-2k per cast, if geared for it.

Dragonlord

12-03-2011, 08:05 AM

If single target is the issue, then BLU can use Convergence to both condense the spell to one target and get even more M.Damage and MACC. Sure, that becomes a 10-minute dependent spike damage, But it's a 6k+ spike nonetheless right? Plus then the BLU can just go out and spam Quadratic and Goblin Rush for 1-2k per cast, if geared for it.

Absolutly right, i was mearly using blu as an example as to why sch aoe'ing w/ kaustra shouldn't be considered in this debate.

Since we're talking about blu, blu has one of the highest zerg potentials vs. mobs without super high defense. The 2 hr is still limited to 30seconds but the 5-6 spells you can fire + skillchain bonus add up quickly. After this wear they can maintain decent and consistant damage w/ almace and aftermath. However, the 2hr trick relies on the blu SCing, and therefore becomes less damaging in a zerg, since the SC progression will be messed up by other WSs. So i wouldn't put blu up in a party zerg situation, but as a DoT or a solo zerg, it seems pretty top notch.

Saiken253

12-03-2011, 11:06 AM

I agree 100% with Aana. there are way too many variables that come into account when it comes to this classification. I am a career DRK. I know, I'm "crazy" for choosing DRK because War is just SO much better, right? Let me just say, yes I may not be able to regularly do 6k+ WSs on my DRK in abyssea(Crit WSs are completely overpowered in these areas and don't really count imo; however with /thf I can hit 8k+ with Torcleaver and still have great DPS. Just think about how well you WARs have it), but I keep up my damage by doing extremely frequent 1200ish normal hits and 2300+ crits and hit 3-4 times faster than any other 2hander DD. Yes, I have to /thf for that which lessens the amount of hits I can normally do with /war, /sam, or /drg, but if you're looking for just epeen WS damage, that what I use(and for those NMs that you don't want to have more than 1-2 people on it constantly). And again yes to Aana, what really matters is if the person knows what they're doing of not. People too often only look at the WS damage that DDs do, but again, each situation is completely different, especially with the human factor. However, it's not just about the damage that I can possibly do that I love DRK. It's how I can be an assent in disruption and ensorcelment with Stuns, Sleeps, and the like. Now I'm not saying that DRK is the best DD out there, but I am saying that since I know my job so well i can keep up with Ukko WARs and Vere MNKs in damage, and sometimes out DD them if conditions are right.

Dragonlord

12-03-2011, 12:07 PM

Cala drks can certainly hold their own in a zerg situation. I have rhongomiant(lol) on my drg and when we do dyna lord its always a close run between drg/drk, so i guess the rivalry continues!

imo, drk needs something. They're typically high middle tier or low top tier, but as a job that has not much else to offer to a party, it really should excel at straight DD. War is weapons master and can change as needed (procs and such), drg can erase enmity and support cure. Drk either needs another niche, or a boost to damage. Drg could use something as well, i barely get to play it anymore w/ all the ukko wars in my shell XD

Saiken253

12-03-2011, 05:54 PM

I agree completely, but what exactly is the problem figuring out! D: I agree that War should just be a weapons expert, changing weapons to fit the situation, and DRG has a nice niche as a near-hateless DD(I say Near simply cause it's just so easy to take hate these days ; ;). 1 idea that I think could work, and would benefit other jobs in the process AND will help level the playing field for all DD is to make every WS have a natural chance to crit; Just have the existing WS that already crit give higher crit rates for their TP, hell even make then crit better at 100TP for originally being a crit WS. That will help in Abyssea anyways. Outside Abyssea, everything levels out much better which makes keeping balance a little harder. I for 1 think if they reverse the timers on SD for DRK and change it around so that for the 1st min that you take damage it builds up the damage bonus and once that min is up it goes into a 2-3min timeframe where you now benefit from the damage bonus. Maybe make it for every 50~100 damage you take that's 1~2% damage bonus you get with a maximum of say +50% damage. However, we need something that's more instantaneous than this.

Also, DRK needs a 2hour revamp like DRG did. Bloodweapon is nowhere near as strong as it used to be(in comparison to what is capable now). Since DRK was supposed to be a more damaging WAR, how about a 2hr that doubles~triples our damage for 30sec~1min(or however long Mighty Strikes is). Could be called something like Might of Darkness(again, playing off DRK supposed to be a more damaging WAR; you HAVE to be war to unlock it! Why make the base job stronger and make it unappealing to even unlock the advanced job?).

As for DRG, yes they somewhat need something as well. I think having something that more closely bonds the drg and the pet would be cool. Like, when you use a jump it creates an opening for your pet to make a special attack of it's own. Not necessarily a breath attack, but something that causes additional damage and maybe a chance for an effect, like reducing the target's critical evasion, or a slow effect or something that would be detrimental to the target based on what "job" it is; melee jobs would have atk down or something and for multi-class mobs, maybe having it randomly choose a detriment based on the jobs that it is? I haven't really had much chance to think of something for DRG for similar reasons that I don't get to play it much either :<

Taint2

12-04-2011, 04:13 AM

however with /thf I can hit 8k+ with Torcleaver and still have mediocre DPS.

/thf is not the answer to any content atm, esp for DRK a job that relies heavily on its sub to even come close to keeping up with other DDs.

Saiken253

12-04-2011, 04:44 AM

/thf is not the answer to any content atm, esp for DRK a job that relies heavily on its sub to even come close to keeping up with other DDs.

Yes I know. However, I did mention that I typically only use that for when I can't be on the NM full-time or only want no more than 1-2 people on an NM outside of WSing. However, even with /thf i can still keep up with other DDs on my drk simply cause I still have capped haste and Last Resort caps out my atk by itself as well. However, it is also not about just the WS damage. Your TPing damage makes up a huge portion of your damage as well(for a DRK at least). That being said, DRK still does need something to improve it's game. And just to clarify, I do agree that /thf is not the answer, it's just a situational thing for EG situations.

Rezeak

12-06-2011, 06:01 AM

In abyssea alot of the time i find DRK/THF a good DD (basically if i'm not tanking(/mnk) i'm /THF on DRK) really even with the long sneak attack recast meaning you have to sit on tp it helped alot by calaborg (more tp = more dmg + better aftermath) either way the difference between DRK/THF and DRK/SAM in abyssea isn't a bit deal.

scaevola

12-06-2011, 07:21 AM

Also, DRK needs a 2hour revamp like DRG did. Bloodweapon is nowhere near as strong as it used to be(in comparison to what is capable now). Since DRK was supposed to be a more damaging WAR, how about a 2hr that doubles~triples our damage for 30sec~1min(or however long Mighty Strikes is). Could be called something like Might of Darkness(again, playing off DRK supposed to be a more damaging WAR; you HAVE to be war to unlock it! Why make the base job stronger and make it unappealing to even unlock the advanced job?).

DRK may need a better 2-hour, but Blood Weapon would have to be removed completely; shortening the cooldown on BW means you pretty much have to nerf Souleater to the point that you might as well just remove it from the game. I mean, you can even make your own Kraken Scythe now.

Also, when I can solo caturae on DNC it's pretty safe to say we're past the point where anyone can make a straight-faced claim they need a crit WS.

Saiken253

12-06-2011, 12:01 PM

DRK may need a better 2-hour, but Blood Weapon would have to be removed completely; shortening the cooldown on BW means you pretty much have to nerf Souleater to the point that you might as well just remove it from the game. I mean, you can even make your own Kraken Scythe now.

Also, when I can solo caturae on DNC it's pretty safe to say we're past the point where anyone can make a straight-faced claim they need a crit WS.

Drk already had a kraken scythe; Bahamut's Zhagnal. and Souleater is already nerfed where it matters. I.E. the Souleater resistance that SE gave to pretty much every NM that counts. And BW being on a 20min CD wouldn't be an end-all game -breaking thing, but what some suggestions for changing BW to a JT that has a % to proc(pretty low, 5~%) would be nice; in fact probably the best option.

DNC not have Evisceration? I must imagine that in my WS slots and macros. But yes, DNC is in the top 3 best solo jobs: DNC SMN and BST; which makes me feel that other jobs need more utility, but certainly not as much as they do.

Sappho

12-07-2011, 03:05 AM

But doesn't Bahamut's Zaghnal, Kraken Scythe, Mercurial Kris (etc etc) all suffer from the same problem that they will not proc with Double Attack or Triple Attack?

scaevola

12-07-2011, 03:38 AM

DNC not have Evisceration? I must imagine that in my WS slots and macros. But yes, DNC is in the top 3 best solo jobs: DNC SMN and BST; which makes me feel that other jobs need more utility, but certainly not as much as they do.

You are missing the point.

Abyssea is done. DRK does not need a crit weapon skill to shit all over deprecated content.

Also, a rare-ish drop from Bahamut 2.0 can't be compared to a weapon that's not only better for BW/SE but can also be completed literally by killing easy preys, but that's not really the point, either. You say nearly all the important NMs have SE resistance and you might be right, but a whole lot more would have to get resistance if we're going to live in a world where DRKs can KC zerg every twenty minutes. The closer BW gets to an on-demand JA the more game-breaking SE becomes.

Your idea of making BW a randomly-occurring trait effect is actually not bad, though I have a hard time envisioning a situation where such a trait would be useful.

Dragonlord

12-07-2011, 04:40 AM

But doesn't Bahamut's Zaghnal, Kraken Scythe, Mercurial Kris (etc etc) all suffer from the same problem that they will not proc with Double Attack or Triple Attack?

If i'm remembering correctly, no. Older oaX weapons like sea weapons proc OA before TA/DA, and only ToM paths suffer from that. However, pre-sea (ridill and merc kris), sea (jailer weapons), and ToM oa weapons all have slightly varying rules, and info on each is hard to find.

Sappho

12-07-2011, 04:43 AM

If i'm remembering correctly, no. Older oaX weapons like sea weapons proc OA before TA/DA, and only ToM paths suffer from that. However, pre-sea (ridill and merc kris), sea (jailer weapons), and ToM oa weapons all have slightly varying rules, and info on each is hard to find.

I don't suppose BG or someone has posted stats on which OA weapons are useful with DA/TA?

Neisan_Quetz

12-07-2011, 04:44 AM

Jailer weapons proc on DA(TA/QA?), that's the only exception I know of. All others proc after QA/TA/DA last I checked.

Arcon

12-07-2011, 05:01 AM

I don't suppose BG or someone has posted stats on which OA weapons are useful with DA/TA?

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Occasionally_Attacks_X_Times

To my knowledge only virtue stone weapons are an exception (stack with DA/TA), all others behave the same way (as in, DA/TA will overwrite their native effect). However, that doesn't make those weapons less usable, since their average is usually around ~2 attacks/round anyway (notable exceptions being Kraken Club and Quint Spear), it also makes DA have less of an effect than it normally would (only with a Kraken Club or Quint Spear it would be a detrimental effect).

However, DRK doesn't have much Double Attack from gear anyway, and in those zerg situations it can just macro them out, so it shouldn't affect your choice much regardless.

ApocalypseNow

12-07-2011, 05:46 AM

scaevola

12-07-2011, 06:44 AM

I want to see numbers on RNG with Decoy Shot and an OA2-4 gun.

Saiken253

12-08-2011, 04:16 PM

You are missing the point.

Your idea of making BW a randomly-occurring trait effect is actually not bad, though I have a hard time envisioning a situation where such a trait would be useful.

It is sadly a request that DRKs have been making ever since the cap increase :<

Dragonlord

12-09-2011, 04:41 AM

This is my first post ever so take it easy on me. Most damage in shortest period of time, I would go with War/Sam with Ukko's. Not only do you post 6-8k with most Fury's but when you chain Fury/Fury the 8k light damage it's sick. Nothing like doing 18-24k damage in 5 seconds. Now use revitalizer/Dustywing/ and rinse repeat Sekkanoki Fury/Fury and you have done around 40k damage in 12 seconds. If you want to extend it more, you use lucid wing along with your meditate and probably do 60k in less then 20 seconds. Actual damage is probably a lot higher because your crits can do up to 3500k with set bonus and aftermath active, and retaliated attacts will do 900-1k damage. Now this is only inside aby. Outside I know it's completely different. To who ever said a Drk can keep up with a Ukko's war in aby, you make me laugh.

I agree with most of your post, however the use of temps opens up a ton of variability. Mostly concerning mythics. The better mythics like kenkonken/ryunohige will benefit more from the tp wings because their oa2-3 bests ODD by far. In addition, their AM lasts longer, so they can produce high dmg for a longer period of time, if we assume temps don't get refilled.

Long story short, talking about temps gets fuzzy unless you give an estimate/average of how often temps will be restored.

p.s. in a zerg situation, SCs don't matter because other's WS will mess it up. In a single person zerg, blu could probably keep up with war due to their 2 hr. I heard good things about dnc w/ rudra's SCs too (SC bonus traits adding to dmg).

One final note, the 3500 crit spikes would be quite rare. assuming AM3 and full AF3 equals (30% crit rate)*(50% AM ODD)*(5% AF ODD)=0.75% of all proccing on 1 hit.

ApocalypseNow

12-14-2011, 05:14 AM

Appreciate the feed back. I don't know much about BLU and I haven't actually seen many mythics in action, if have seen any lol. I probably shouldn't post till I see a talented blu use there 2 hour. I did have the oppertunity to see a few relics in action when I joined a shout group for Pil. I was quite impressed even with there damage (they were mostly RNG). I have only been playing 1 year since a 3 year break and I quit right as TOA came out. Question to anyone that might know, is Ukko's better then Bravura or Conqueror?

Saiken253

12-14-2011, 06:49 AM

Ukonvasara is better than it's mmyth/relic counterpart by far. Also, set bonuses do not affect WSs if i'm not mistaken. At least that's how it is with DRK(or have yet to experience a set bonus proc on a WS if it does occur

Greatguardian

12-14-2011, 09:52 PM

This is not true. Conqueror, like most Mythics, is pretty much amazing and destroys Ukon/Bravura. Bravura also allows for many more defensive options while maintaining capped gear Haste, and is comparable to Ukonvasara on stronger enemies. It will be weaker than Ukon on weak shit in Abyssea, though.

Overall hierarchy for Great Axes is Conqueror on anything > Bravura on strong shit > Ukon on strong shit > Ukon on weak shit > Bravura on weak shit

Jerynh

12-15-2011, 03:23 AM

y'all forgot pup

Dragonlord

12-15-2011, 03:38 AM

y'all forgot pup

Pup, ok let's see. First off, pup really can't zerg well. You can't tp feed your automaton like you can for yourself with meditate/temps. So it immediately loses a large chunk of dmg.

As a DoT DD, it can maintain consistent high dmg WSs, but its melee can't keep up well due to native high delay h2h (unlike mnk). Verethragna doesn't add a ton of damage to pup for 2 reasons. Stringing pummel is nearly as good as VS, and AM on h2h is a little gimped because it can only proc on the first hand. Also, this doesn't increase your auto's damage at all.

So finally, pup's savior is its mythic. oa2-3x for the master AND the auto. This increases tp gain and WS damage of both auto and master by a significant degree. In terms of mythics, this one grants one of the highest changes to the job. The ability to spam SP (with a 15% bonus to dmg!) and armor shatterer/string shredder turns pup into a powerhouse DoT.

tl;dr;lolpup - pup can't match other high end DDs until they have a mythic, but i would say pup also beats many high end DDs with said mythic.

Greatguardian

12-15-2011, 05:54 AM

That's if and only if the other DDs don't have mythics themselves, which is a fairly disingenuous comparison.

Dragonlord

12-15-2011, 09:41 AM

That's if and only if the other DDs don't have mythics themselves, which is a fairly disingenuous comparison.

The only job that benefits as much as pup from mythic would be drg, since both jobs use their mythic WS, and receive a straight +15% WS damage. Other jobs with weaker mythic WS are forced to use the WS to activate their AM, and then they'll spam their better WS. Meaning that hidden +15% WS damage isn't adding much to their damage.

ApocalypseNow

12-15-2011, 09:58 AM

I'm pretty sure Dnc can benefit quite a bit from there mythic to make multiple skill chains. Unless they have changed it in this update, Dnc doesn't have a relic so it's either mythic or empy.

Dragonlord

12-15-2011, 11:24 AM

I'm pretty sure Dnc can benefit quite a bit from there mythic to make multiple skill chains. Unless they have changed it in this update, Dnc doesn't have a relic so it's either mythic or empy.

True, pyrrhic is a decent WS, DE is dnc's best out of abyssea though. dnc can do a 2 step skillchain using reverse flourish or a 3 step using /sam and sekkanoki. (maybe 4 w/ meditate if timed right? not sure)

If im remembering correctly, terpsichore makes steps grant 5 FMs. This would allow the dnc to benefit from using step->refresh flourish, instead of lose tp from it currently (which happens due to JA delay) However, it doesn't allows for any more skillchains than current due to reverse flourish's recast. Although with dnc's tp gain+meditate+oa2-3 AM, im almost certain the dnc could make that 4 step SC.

For certain terpsichore would increase dnc's zerg ability by a decent margin. And would increase overall dmg especially when you can evisc->pyrrhic (with +15% ws dmg) for darkness which will mirror that +15%.

ApocalypseNow

12-15-2011, 11:46 AM

Ya pretty much what I was getting to Dragonlord. I would be interested if you still get the 5 FM's from Terp if it's in your off hand. I would think so, and in that case it would be cool to have Empy in main, and mythic in off hand :O. lol

Dragonlord

12-15-2011, 11:50 AM

I'm pretty sure relics/emps/mythics don't do anything special in offhand. But i can't say i've heard an account from some one w/ a mythic, but it's how relics/emps are.

Saiken253

12-15-2011, 11:53 AM

The only job that benefits as much as pup from mythic would be drg, since both jobs use their mythic WS, and receive a straight +15% WS damage. Other jobs with weaker mythic WS are forced to use the WS to activate their AM, and then they'll spam their better WS. Meaning that hidden +15% WS damage isn't adding much to their damage.

Don't forget about Nirvana for SMN~ +40(maybe 45 for 99?) mab and the oat2-3 for smn and pet with Garland of Bliss decreasing the target's defenses by 12.5%? ;3 pretty boss as well imo. would love to get my hands on 1 myself. just need all those alexandrites... near 5k merit BPs mmm~(outside that is)

Dragonlord

12-16-2011, 02:20 AM

Don't forget about Nirvana for SMN~ +40(maybe 45 for 99?) mab and the oat2-3 for smn and pet with Garland of Bliss decreasing the target's defenses by 12.5%? ;3 pretty boss as well imo. would love to get my hands on 1 myself. just need all those alexandrites... near 5k merit BPs mmm~(outside that is)

Hmm, well tbh smn is probably the job i know least about, lol. If it's like blm, however, the HQ ele staves will still beat the +40 mab, and the elemental ToM staves go far beyond the HQs. The defense down is pretty irrelavent since defense down does not stack and other jobs like drg (that should be meleeing, unlike smn) grants a better defense down. The oa2-3 for pet would be interesting, but avatar melee dmg is terribly underwhelming to begin with.

Neisan_Quetz

12-16-2011, 04:22 AM

Er... Avatars aren't affected by affinity damage boosts last I checked, just the -perp.

The only elemental trial which helps them are the pet: staves.

Saiken253

12-17-2011, 04:25 PM

Indeed. the HQ staves only provided perp-3. the ToM smn pet staves also only provided perp-, but with the additional property of basically capping your BP delay- for the pet of that element ToM staff. Nirvana will add around 50% more damage to or pet's magic BPs, the OA2-3 for the pets with more atk is very nice. And i can get 100tp in the time it takes for my BP timer to cooldown ^^ will probably be a little faster with Nirvana(with the whole more attacks and all).

Neisan_Quetz

12-18-2011, 12:20 AM

It's quite less than 50%, Celestial Avatars are Blms and have at least MABV.

Saiken253

12-18-2011, 06:22 PM

I don't see how people keep thinking that the celestial avatars are blms :< I have never read anywhere that they have any JT.

Regardless, Nirvana would add a tremendous boost to SMNs magic damage.

Greatguardian

12-19-2011, 12:20 AM

Define "Tremendous". It's pretty much a 15%-ish increase over Pet:MAB staves, discounting the OAT which is not a huge loss considering how strongly Avatars favor BP damage over white damage.

Kokorololi

12-21-2011, 05:52 AM

I don't see how people keep thinking that the celestial avatars are blms :< I have never read anywhere that they have any JT.

Regardless, Nirvana would add a tremendous boost to SMNs magic damage.

They do have job traits. Most of them have MAB. Carbuncle doesn't, it instead has Auto Regen and I believe MDB. I never checked for MDB, but I did check for the others years ago.

Theytak

12-21-2011, 07:37 AM

y'all forgot pup

For future reference, from one pup to another, never bring up pup in a conversation like this, because

Pup, ok let's see. First off, pup really can't zerg well. You can't tp feed your automaton like you can for yourself with meditate/temps. So it immediately loses a large chunk of dmg.

As a DoT DD, it can maintain consistent high dmg WSs, but its melee can't keep up well due to native high delay h2h (unlike mnk). Verethragna doesn't add a ton of damage to pup for 2 reasons. Stringing pummel is nearly as good as VS, and AM on h2h is a little gimped because it can only proc on the first hand. Also, this doesn't increase your auto's damage at all.

So finally, pup's savior is its mythic. oa2-3x for the master AND the auto. This increases tp gain and WS damage of both auto and master by a significant degree. In terms of mythics, this one grants one of the highest changes to the job. The ability to spam SP (with a 15% bonus to dmg!) and armor shatterer/string shredder turns pup into a powerhouse DoT.

tl;dr;lolpup - pup can't match other high end DDs until they have a mythic, but i would say pup also beats many high end DDs with said mythic.

is all aggravatingly true. In terms of raw DD, you're only options are get Kenkonken or change jobs. Pup will always shine in it's lowman utility and flexibility in terms of party role, but there's no point even bringing it up in a min-max best DD discussion, sad to say. We are the only job with Cure VI, Thunder V, and the ability to put out strong melee damage (I said strong, not superwarmnksamgodmode, don't flip shit and try to correct me because you define the word "strong" differently), but the job is so difficult to play well and expensive to gear properly, and misunderstood in general, that most people won't bother considering it for any event ever, unless they know the person playing it.

Saiken253

12-22-2011, 02:40 PM

They do have job traits. Most of them have MAB. Carbuncle doesn't, it instead has Auto Regen and I believe MDB. I never checked for MDB, but I did check for the others years ago.

If they do have MAB, they definitely don't have enough. but more JTs is a must for out pets, like attack bonus, DA, TA, TH(damn you bsts!), and much much more.

Fupafighter

03-28-2012, 07:00 PM

Mythic sam, ragnarok drk, mythic drg. Those are my top 3 picks. Shoha with lvl 3 aftermath on mythic is just insane 0.o And a 30% boost to drakesbane is just insane too.

Kristal

03-29-2012, 05:46 PM

Pup, ok let's see. First off, pup really can't zerg well. You can't tp feed your automaton like you can for yourself with meditate/temps. So it immediately loses a large chunk of dmg.

As a DoT DD, it can maintain consistent high dmg WSs, but its melee can't keep up well due to native high delay h2h (unlike mnk).

You CAN TP feed automatons. Heat Capacitor with triple FM will even beat SAM, although you'd need to use a Kenkonken to use it most effectively. Without KKK, it'll be a bit trickier, but still beats /SAM.

Also, H2H delay is not the issue when compared between MNK and PUP, PUP can get lower delay then MNK. MNK has the advantage in skill and JAs to give it higher damage per hit, but PUP has the better hits/round (when you include pet.)

But as someone already mentioned, comparing PUP to other jobs is very difficult. There's too many variables floating around, and too few people that can manage all of them in the midst of battle. Even SE devs have trouble with PUP.

Fupafighter

06-20-2012, 04:12 PM

In lowman situations (like dynamis or abyssea) mythic pup should beat a mythic sam. Other than that, no. It's pretty much ryugohige drg or koga sam. Their weaponskills are too powerful.

Fupafighter

06-21-2012, 05:30 PM

You CAN TP feed automatons. Heat Capacitor with triple FM will even beat SAM, although you'd need to use a Kenkonken to use it most effectively. Without KKK, it'll be a bit trickier, but still beats /SAM.

Also, H2H delay is not the issue when compared between MNK and PUP, PUP can get lower delay then MNK. MNK has the advantage in skill and JAs to give it higher damage per hit, but PUP has the better hits/round (when you include pet.)

But as someone already mentioned, comparing PUP to other jobs is very difficult. There's too many variables floating around, and too few people that can manage all of them in the midst of battle. Even SE devs have trouble with PUP.
You forgot to mention that a haste capped 2 hander blows any 1 hand DD out of the water. As haste increases, 1 handers fall behind.

Zamms

06-21-2012, 11:17 PM

From personal experience from seeing the dmg out put by members of my ls mythic drg lvl 99 polearm has done around 5-6k consistantly to Arch Dynamis Lord. Amano lvl 99 using shoha i have seen hit 10k to ADL but consistant damage is around 5-6k as well. Ragnarok lvl 99 on drk i have seen do around the same as the Amano but I have seen it do around 13k to CC in Abyssea Misereaux. A lvl 99 Apoc I have done 4800 to ADL but more consistant with about 3,900-4k this is with souleater and last resort in effect. We do not have any other mythics in ls to test dmg with yet. As for our Vere mnks they all have switched over or are currently working on ukon due to Vere low damage out put.