[dev1049] Petition - Make entropy stronger

[Natasha]

Alright, so there has been a lot of back and forth going on about this weapon skill. The general consensus from what I gather is that people, and of course dark knights in specific are greatly disappointed by it. It has been said by one of our own, Raelia (hope you don't mind) that great sword now does everything that scythe does better, it is hard to argue with this excepting of course catastrophe but I don't see that as being a a factor worth much consideration. Now I know there are a few out there who will see this and think, "So what? Just use GS and stop complaining" this is a silly statement because no weapon should become worthless and certainly our primary weapon should not be. There are many reasons why scythe is greatly in need of a better weapon skill.

This brings me to the purpose of this thread~ Entropy is a weaponskill that is currently in testing. This is why we test no? Let us have a show of support in improving this weaponskill! (Like!)


Notes: This is not a thread for debate, it is a petition not a poll so please try to avoid fighting. (I know that people will anyway, just in hopes that some in this community will still have some respect... im probably naieve)

Also, I am aware that drk is not the only job facing ws woe (not walk of echoes :p) and if you happen to wander in here, make your own petition and I will likely support you! (Haha troll warriors... can see it now 'ukko's fury needs a buff')

Have a wonderful day guys~

Update #1 Well it looks like they made a change guys!

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/17245-dev1049-New-weapon-skills?p=239652&viewfull=1#post239652

Victory? From their description it doesn't sound like it but we can always hope they changed the damage and just didn't tell us. :(

On the other hand it seems like they may fix up GS a lil bit... which is still a +

[Hextitan]

I'm a career DRK that definitely supports any potential boosts or buffs to the job.

However, I gotta be honest. There doesn't seem to be enough info on this WS to say how good or bad it is. People have said it does anywhere from 1k-3k, and I haven't really seen enough hard core testing on it anywhere. I've seen 2-3 people do a handful of WS and say "it's good" or "it's bad", nothing conclusive. Ironically we probably won't know how good/bad this WS is until it's off the Test Server and goes live.

[Raelia]

Entropy is a four hit WS. The only difference between it and Guillotine in simple damage terms is a 1.0 first hit instead of a 0.875.

The damage was well tested in Misareaux Coast on mobs strong enough to see the full damage but weak enough to see a 'maximum' damage. The result (http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/2904/33556082.jpg) was far below spectacular. No special properties. No Critical compatibility. Just straight Guillotine damage. 1800 average, 2.2k on Double Attacks, 1500 with a miss... Go swing Guillotine at the same things and you'll be within 50 damage. There's a high and low of Resolution in that linked image too, which I shouldn't have to point out as 'holy crap' and illustrates what a difference a STR mod makes.

And for that matter with the pitfalls of being a multihit WS, that 100% INT mod doesn't even matter. Accuracy comes first, then Attack.

Entropy is a derpy Guillotine clone.

Solutions? I suggested two. I lean more towards the second currently. Firstly for either: Dump the 'Recovers MP' effect and/or add it to a different WS like Infernal Scythe. SE wants DRKs to cast their spells, but this is not because we're running out of MP; DRK's spells just tend to be counter intuitive to damage output! DRK doesn't need their level 99 WS dedicated to bolstering the weakest segment of their playstyle!

1. Make Entropy a 'Critical Hit varies with TP' WS. This isn't too great for DRK, jumping on the Crit bandwagon, and provides no practical performance increase outside of Abyssea nor particularly on HNM/Voidwatch mobs. Barring Entropy needing one thing or another, I actually suggest against this.

2. Make Entropy an Eight Hit weaponskill (hitting twice per swing of the existing animation). Seven or Six hits would be acceptable, but Double Attack or Triple Attack gear would then come into play. After accuracy considerations Entropy would then be well balanced against Torcleaver against soft targets, but fall off quickly in performance versus NM/HNM/VW mobs to allow Quietus to shine where it works best. Because it would require a healthy amount of Accuracy and Attack it would carry a much higher performance limit in terms of gearing (to say, decent gear will get decent performance, incredible gear and buffs will earn incredible performance on harder targets). Per old Asuran Fists testing, most of the time with capped accuracy an Eight Hit WS will only land six hits, and with a moderate INT mod such a high fTP is necessary to be competitive with Torcleaver's high single-hit fTP and Resolution's STR mod.

[Rohelius]

I agree which is why I haven't even posted anything on the matter.
What's wrong with it in their minds is that it recovers mp and its mod is INT.
They made it clear they hate magic and won't even entertain the idea that it has its uses.
I can't help but feel they got on the dark knight boat back when the 93% haste zerg was the rage and then got pissed when it went away and left them with a relic they would have never unlocked otherwise.

[Raelia]

I got on the Dark Knight boat when Guillotine had a 68 TP return, just two swings to WS again, but Dragoon's 2-hour was a stupid pet that died if a mob sneezed at it.

DRK doesn't need this kind of MP recovery to make spellcasting usable, necessary, or even viable. It needs better spells. If Drain II was on a 30 second timer instead of two minutes, Dread Spikes on a 1 minute cooldown instead of 3 minutes, and we got something like Absorb-Haste, you'd be damn right DRK might be hurting for MP then and all of these would tend to be worth casting much, much more.

As it stands though: If you can outpace autorefresh gear when idle and Refresh from your support (they have /RDM outside of Abyssea, right?) then you're probably casting too much and your damage is suffering. Kill a mob 10% faster and you'll have taken 10% less damage overall, because a dead mob deals no damage!

I won't say spellcasting is misguided. It's just tends to be weak and counterproductive on anything but easy trash mobs. Absorb-Attri was a huge step in the right direction, but I still can't seem to apply it to enough situations to see my MP pool drop below 90% with Drain II and Dread Spikes casted 'as necessary'.

[Natasha]

Glad to finally see some replies, though i was hoping for a more positive showing :/

Im not going to assume I know best, maybe some people in the community have the right view IDK

BUT I want to make it very clear to SE the kind of ws that we want and should have had a long time ago. Hopefully this thread will get more support and they'll see to it that this ws does not suck..

[Raelia]

I'm sure as hell not gonna butter it up. Entropy is a crappy Guillotine clone, which we have already gotten one of those in the past (Insurgency), with a very gimmicky effect that doesn't do anything for the core issue of DRK's spellcasting: Long casting times, long recast times, 90% useless spells.

SE is killing Scythe completely now that Greatsword has a multihit WS to use with Souleater, and it's got an extra hit over Guillotine/Insurgency/Entropy even! Greatsword now boasts a 60% stronger Single-hit WS that scales at 300tp to being fully 110% stronger, and a five hit WS for Souleater usage that is also STR modded so really works out to being fully 50% stronger than Guillsurgentropy as well.

Scythe weaponskills have been stagnant since level 60!

Maybe I want my DRK to be more than a Stun bot that runs in to use Entropy so it can stand back and stun some more.

If Entropy stays the way it is: Using Scythe on Dark Knight, DRK's signature weapon, will be equivalent to using Polearm on Warrior. Sure they get Penta Thrust, but the availability of Rampage and Ukko's Fury just makes them look like a tard.

[Natasha]

Just going to note though, Raelia, that I fear it would be too late to go for 8 hit as that would mean changing the animation which I don't think they will do. I saw your other post about this and I agree to some extent but I feel a more realistic expectation would be a ftp increase or some other method of boosting the damage.

[Raelia]

Just going to note though, Raelia, that I fear it would be too late to go for 8 hit as that would mean changing the animation
Easy. Make each swing of the animation hit twice, or each swing hits again as the arc it leaves fades out. It'd actually be pretty neat looking.

Eight hits can be made to fit with the current animation, is regulated by accuracy on hard targets, negates the want for Double and Triple attack for WS, allows Scythe DRKs to make use of Stalwart Soul by dumping 80% of their HP in for damage but only dropping 40% while putting up impressive (but accuracy and Souleater recast regulated) spike/e-peen damage, and helps Scythe to remain impressively competitive and situational with Great Sword.

[Natasha]

Easy. Make each swing of the animation hit twice, or each swing hits again as the arc it leaves fades out. It'd actually be pretty neat looking.

Heh, I suppose they could ... you're just so tired of the 4 hit guillotine thing aren't you? :p

[Raelia]

Heh, I suppose they could ... you're just so tired of the 4 hit guillotine thing aren't you? :p

Yeah, now that Great Sword has a five hit WS Scythe no longer holds the 'can use Guillotine/Insurgency with Souleater for spike output' advantage. Not to mention this isn't the first time they've duplicated Guillotine and given it something they thought DRK needed: Light skillchain property on Insurgency, which a minority whined for (because they didn't want to skill up GS for Spinning Slash) just like a minority now tells them DRK needs more MP instead of better spells (because they don't want to obtain autorefresh gear or RDM main or sub support for Refresh).

[NeoLionheart]

Going to get so much hate for this, but I personally like getting a ton of mp back from a non aspirable mob.

[Raelia]

Going to get so much hate for this, but I personally like getting a ton of mp back from a non aspirable mob.

It's too much as it is. It will probably be nerfed before release so as to not give DRK infinite MP. You're gonna hate having said that afterward.

[Natasha]

Going to get so much hate for this, but I personally like getting a ton of mp back from a non aspirable mob.

Hmm.. its not that i hate the idea... but scythe has been needing a new damage ws forever -.-

Edit: c'mon guys SUPPORT SUPPORT SUPPORT! I know there are more drks out there wanting a great 99 ws~

[NeoLionheart]

Personally I've always been bias towards Great Sword. Resolution is the dream WS I've always had in my head that has somehow manifested into reality. That being said....I'm no slouch on my scythes either otherwise I'd be a crap DRK.

With that out of the way, my honest question being, if Entropy was stronger......then what would be special or the point of Resolution other than what it is now?

[Raelia]

Resolution lets Torcleaver DRKs have something to use with Souleater up and gives non-Torcleaver GS DRKs a WS that puts out damage far beyond Guillotine and allows easy 'split building' to achieve 6-hits.

Entropy being eight hits (or even just six or seven, but wouldn't be as adaptable to the animation) would give Scythe a reason to exist in light of GS getting such a ridiculously useful WS.

[Natasha]

Personally I've always been bias towards Great Sword. Resolution is the dream WS I've always had in my head that has somehow manifested into reality. That being said....I'm no slouch on my scythes either otherwise I'd be a crap DRK.

With that out of the way, my honest question being, if Entropy was stronger......then what would be special or the point of Resolution other than what it is now?

well for one it provides some options, i've known many drks that love great sword and used it even when it was not popular to do so. Im all for GS being viable... but as it stands GS has all thats good in drk weapon skills now... even ignoring torcleaver, GS had spinning slash and ground strike which are good options against defensively strong stuff and now it has a far superior multi-hit as well. What does scythe have anymore? it has attack down and mp restore :/

That said, im not specifically asking for it to be 'stronger' than Resolution, I would be happy if it was on par with it but thats just me.

[Rezeak]

1. I do believe it needs to be stronger 2.0-3.0 ftp on first hit would do it.

but i'm gonna say if ya want to remove the mp recovey side of it then PLEASE LEAVE IT AS IT IS.

Basically i'd rather have a new tool than more DMG(which will be equal to GSD anyway) even if it mean i may only switch to scythe for 1 WS to refill my mp only because it's more useful to use as it is.

Either way i think the real solution is for SE to make our mp worth using up so that using scythe = magic + entropy stance and Great sword = Pure DD

or making insurgency crit or 60% STR and INT

[NeoLionheart]

1. I do believe it needs to be stronger 2.0-3.0 ftp on first hit would do it.

but i'm gonna say if ya want to remove the mp recovey side of it then PLEASE LEAVE IT AS IT IS.

Basically i'd rather have a new tool than more DMG(which will be equal to GSD anyway) even if it mean i may only switch to scythe for 1 WS to refill my mp only because it's more useful to use as it is.

Either way i think the real solution is for SE to make our mp worth using up so that using scythe = magic + entropy stance and Great sword = Pure DD

or making insurgency crit or 60% STR and INT

Can't agree more here.

[Natasha]

1. I do believe it needs to be stronger 2.0-3.0 ftp on first hit would do it.

but i'm gonna say if ya want to remove the mp recovey side of it then PLEASE LEAVE IT AS IT IS.

Basically i'd rather have a new tool than more DMG(which will be equal to GSD anyway) even if it mean i may only switch to scythe for 1 WS to refill my mp only because it's more useful to use as it is.

Either way i think the real solution is for SE to make our mp worth using up so that using scythe = magic + entropy stance and Great sword = Pure DD

or making insurgency crit or 60% STR and INT

Thats not a bad idea by any means, however.... 1. we have an A+ in scythe and an A- in GS 2. Scythe has the highest DMG of all weapons in the game ... So this leaves me wondering why GS would be the weapon of choice when it comes to DD on drk ... I wouldnt mind GS having more physical dd use, but I don't want scythe to lose viability as a phisical DD weapon either, so if nothing else make scythe strong for both magic and physical purposes (maybe make it strong physically one way and GS be strong physically in many ways)

[Raelia]

Scythe will (or should) completely disappear from credible DRKs if Entropy stays the way it is now. Scythe will be finally and plainly dead.

Don't even begin to ascribe to 'the utility of Entropy will make Scythe situational'. DRK is one of the finest damage dealers in the game (barring a few hangups about crit WSes) and should continue to shine with its signature weapon, but as this stands we'll be doing our best damage with a weapon shared by WAR and PLD instead of something unique to DRK (BST and BLM on Scythe don't count quite the same).

DRK doing what it does best by using its secondary weapon is just gonna be sad, but at least Zeid won't look like a gimp anymore.

[Rohelius]

DRK doesn't need this kind of MP recovery to make spellcasting usable, necessary, or even viable. It needs better spells.
I never said it was lacking MP or that all its spells were perfect the way they are, i agree with you on this.


If Drain II was on a 30 second timer instead of two minutes,
Yes.

Dread Spikes on a 1 minute cooldown instead of 3 minutes,
Wait what? Remember this?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIWfbR_mFPQ&feature=related


As it stands though: If you can outpace autorefresh gear when idle and Refresh from your support (they have /RDM outside of Abyssea, right?) then you're probably casting too much and your damage is suffering.
1-Nope i do not outpace it, i use the same spells everyone else does, it just makes sense i understand this.
2-Yeah used to be idle and refresh that way but this neat thing added to DRK called Occult Acumen lets me TP from the side lines like never before so im rarely "Idle".
3-My damage is not suffering as far as i know, i am quite happy with it
in and out of Abyssea.


Kill a mob 10% faster and you'll have taken 10% less damage overall, because a dead mob deals no damage!
Sadly you just summarized in that sentence what everyone thinks Endgame and Dark Knight should be all about.
"HIT FAST WTFPWNDWS YEAH BIG NUMBER APPEAR ON SCREEN I ROCK! NEXT POP!!!"
I know its a grind game but just because you need to burn through a lot of pops fast your going to miss out on all the fun stuff in between?
I bet u scroll through all the in-game cut scenes too :/

Sorry i do not want to be that.


I won't say spellcasting is misguided. It's just tends to be weak and counterproductive on anything but easy trash mobs.
Yuup, sad but true.


Absorb-Attri was a huge step in the right direction, but I still can't seem to apply it to enough situations to see my MP pool drop below 90% with Drain II and Dread Spikes casted 'as necessary'.
Yeah i agree heck of a spell i love it but to say u cant find enough use for it?
-Most abilities that can be dispelled are absorb-able. that is quite a lot.....

And as bonus: The ability Nether Void allows for two beneficial status effects to be absorbed.

I am not gonna cry about something that is still in the testing phase bottom line.
I am however going to think hard why they would give us such a MP boost..
My hope is that New spells are coming and/or recasts are going to be adjusted.

[Raelia]

Read the whole sentence though. You still won't be spamming Absorb-Attri enough to really knock a supported MP pool down, because every mob is gonna run out of buffs sooner or later or the RDM is gonna be dispelling it faster than you can steal it. If it's awesome enough you want it, the tank doesn't want the mob to have it, and they don't wanna rely on your Abs-Attri cooldown, capisce?

The only way to be totally burning your mp pool if you at least have Refresh is if you're spamming spells needlessly. Drain II but not setting up for Souleater, Dread Spikes when you're not gonna have hate, Absorb-Attri when the mob has nothing to steal, or spamming Stun out of rotation... Intelligent casting and having friends (RDM or /RDM) is the solution for mp issues, not a silly-broken MP restore WS. FFXI is a team game after all, so not having at least Refresh and at least one Autorefresh piece for idle isn't excusable when casting will matter.

SE does need to know that Entropy is sub-standard for damage dealing but also inappropriate for DRK. Useful, sure, but only when doing things DRK doesn't excel at.

[Rohelius]

To think that a group would rely on a drk's Absorb-Attri as Dispel is silly you should know that is not what i said.

And yeah its a team game so communicate to your RDM u got next dispel is that hard? Intelligent casting~
it does not hurt your DPS to type capisce?

Oh and you should also know that dark knight is at the very bottom of the refresh rotation and usually not in the mage party.

Whats inappropriate is a 8hit WS on a heavy weapon, would be awesome yeah but i could do some epic numbers with it.
Its not that people ask for fair things/changes... they know they are asking for things they can exploit easily... i see that i am sure they see it too.

[Natasha]

Lets try to stay close to the topic guys.

Reminder, that would be supporting a buff for the ws.

assuming that it is understood well enough which i think it is

[ruzoko]

Scythe will (or should) completely disappear from credible DRKs if Entropy stays the way it is now. Scythe will be finally and plainly dead.

Don't even begin to ascribe to 'the utility of Entropy will make Scythe situational'. DRK is one of the finest damage dealers in the game (barring a few hangups about crit WSes) and should continue to shine with its signature weapon, but as this stands we'll be doing our best damage with a weapon shared by WAR and PLD instead of something unique to DRK (BST and BLM on Scythe don't count quite the same).

DRK doing what it does best by using its secondary weapon is just gonna be sad, but at least Zeid won't look like a gimp anymore.

^ This makes me sad, but i must agree scythe really does need a better weapon skill and if something isn't done to improve the damage of Entropy then all that SE will probably see is a repeat of the past where DRKs don't use their primary weapon (Scythe) and stick to using a Great Sword due to the fact that Greatsword has more overall damage potential over scythe atm.

[Natasha]

^ This makes me sad, but i must agree scythe really does need a better weapon skill and if something isn't done to improve the damage of Entropy then all that SE will probably see is a repeat of the past where DRKs don't use their primary weapon (Scythe) and stick to using a Great Sword due to the fact that Greatsword has more overall damage potential over scythe atm.

Thanks for supporting~

[Urteil]

Increase the FTP or add MAB, or multi hits, or anything to the WS to make it more viable. The WS needs a increase as it is simply another terrible Guillotine clone.





Any DRK needing to use a terrible level 96 WS to recover MP is, terrible.

Already have RDM's, and idle gear for that.
If solo'ing get appetence crown, bale flanchard +2 and aspir 600+ MP away from a EM mob.
Its not like we are casting magic enough to warrant a WS to return it to us. What spell list does SE think we have?

[Natasha]

yay, more support~

[Hextitan]

Hopefully SE listens, but as far as I know they haven't been in here in months, nor have they acknowledged any of the changes people have requested. Not one post.

People ask for new spells, or better WS, or JAs, and invariably a ton of people chime in with "YEAH"....and SE never responds. I don't mean to rain on you parade but it honestly seems like we're talking to ourselves here.

[Demicus]

I agree with the issue of Scythe becoming a dying breed.

I propose a few options:

1) Melee boost. Potential retool of Scythe damage calculation to capitalize on high weapon DMG rating. Adjusting Melee:WS ratio in favor of Melee.

2) WS boost. Quietus along with Insurgency; or Entropy; receive an adjustment such that their output is on the same level as corresponding WS.
Quietus:Torcleaver/Victory Smite; Insurgency:Drakesbane; and Entropy:Resolution.
Adjusting Melee:WS ratio to be equal; or slightly favor WS.

2b) A secondary point which favors a boost to Quietus: The difficulty of obtaining Redemption is not proportional to its performance. Similarly it is not nearly equal to the performance of Verethragna which has the same requirements to obtain.

DRK has traditionally been a bit harder to play and gear. I don't necessarily want this to change, merely because it is part of what makes the job fun and different. However if there is no reasonable way to make a WS perform well; this is simply frustrating.

As an aside, I feel that balance is failing to be achieved partially because of stratospheric WS numbers. I'm not sure the best way to say it; but unnaturally high WS numbers seem to defeat the spirit of the game.

[Raelia]

There's nothing you could do to Scythe that wouldn't also apply to Great Sword without being just... weird. Scythe needs a decent WS, that's pretty much the only unbiased (in the sense that GS got one too) change that can be made to it.

I officially dare them to make Entropy eight hits and see what happens.

[Natasha]

Hopefully SE listens, but as far as I know they haven't been in here in months, nor have they acknowledged any of the changes people have requested. Not one post.

People ask for new spells, or better WS, or JAs, and invariably a ton of people chime in with "YEAH"....and SE never responds. I don't mean to rain on you parade but it honestly seems like we're talking to ourselves here.

S'why we need as much support as we can get.

Many thanks for the support thus far (of course, if you play drk you're potentially helping yourself out ^^)

[Armangetto]

I agree that Entropy needs a boost in dmg. As many have stated boost it to where it does about the same dmg as resoultion. That way people who perfer gs can use resoultion and people who perfer scythe can use entropy. I dont understandy why se made the ws as int... it should of been str.

The absorb mp from the ws is neat but as people have stated before theres no real point. We have aspir, aspir 2, temp meds from vw when your casting absrobs to figure out if its gona proc darkness. I guess it would be good for solo to get more mp for non stop farming on mobs that have nothing to aspir from.

I messed around on the test server in abssyea with buffalos, resoultion was doing 2.2 to 3.6s avrage ws was about 3k. Poped souleater and did 4.6k something. With entropy it was mostly 2.2 to 2.4ks with soul eater almost did 4k. Im gona to test both ws on mobs outside abyssea to see how they do but resoultion just wins out.

SE really needs to redo our scythe ws from Guillotine, Insurgency, Quietus, and Entropy. I own a redemption and I love that weapon and Quietus but it REALLY needs a dmg boost.... Also, I thought SE was gona rebalance weapon skills?

[Armangetto]

This whole scythe is worse than gs thing reminds me of back in the day where drks would use gs and /thief for 1k spinning slashes. I was a gs drk because of that until Toau, where scythes made a comeback. Maybe its time for gs to take over again for a time.... XD

[Quetzacoatl]

I had really hoped for something better with Entropy, but, alas, like many DRKs and everyone else, our hopes keep getting crushed by Square-Enix's ideas.

Like I've said before: Entropy needs to have a STR modifier as well as INT. I think it just makes more sense this way for DRK to gear up STR and INT for a Scythe weapon skill, because I can't see myself gearing for just INT.

I know, Catastrophe is just as farfetched as far as modifiers go (INT + AGI), but I'd like to see a Scythe WS that makes sense for once, outside of Guillotine, a weapon skill that can barely break 1.2K Damage. Enough is enough- the playerbase doesn't want to see the game's developers making anymore tomfoolery out of an iconic weapon.

Square-Enix, we want a serious, raw-damage Scythe Weapon Skill for once. What I propose will in some way help it become that.

[Natasha]

I had really hoped for something better with Entropy, but, alas, like many DRKs and everyone else, our hopes keep getting crushed by Square-Enix's ideas.

Like I've said before: Entropy needs to have a STR modifier as well as INT. I think it just makes more sense this way for DRK to gear up STR and INT for a Scythe weapon skill, because I can't see myself gearing for just INT.

I know, Catastrophe is just as farfetched as far as modifiers go (INT + AGI), but I'd like to see a Scythe WS that makes sense for once, outside of Guillotine, a weapon skill that can barely break 1.2K Damage. Enough is enough- the playerbase doesn't want to see the game's developers making anymore tomfoolery out of an iconic weapon.

Square-Enix, we want a serious, raw-damage Scythe Weapon Skill for once. What I propose will in some way help it become that.

Good to hear it from the Great Sword guy :p

[Ruebyy]

I am baffled as to why SE refuses to step up to play when it comes to dark knight. And with the current state of Entropy they have yet again dropped the ball on giving us improvement or balance.

People who are insisting that this WS is fine or that the MP drain should stay the same are missing the basic point that the more sensible DRK are trying to make. With every update SE has continued to degrade Scythe, the (supposed) weapon of choice for DRK. Not just when compared to GS but against any other respectable DD weapon(GA, PA, Bow...). Just to remain a respectable DD DRK is forced to rely on capacities that are not only "2nd" best choice, but also aren't even exclusive to its repertoire.

Unless this is another situation like insurgency, where we're missing so hidden DD potential, then this weaponskill has absolutely no respectable application. MP restoration would have been a great addition to DRK if not for the wealth of options we now posses to recover MP in most any given situation. That along with a fact pointed out earlier; A DRK who casts appropriately will not outpace his MP refreshment rate. Just because you can cast doesn't always mean that you should.

Side note: Some people clearly don't quite understand the concept of Idling/Idle gear. Idling doesn't necessarily mean you are electing to do nothing instead of actively engaging a mob in some way. In some situations you shouldn't be casting or there is nothing to fighting(in between pulls), just to name a couple.

I'm trying to stay on topic and strictly talk about the weaknesses of this WS here but i think i'll make a post to talk about the current shortcomings of DRK as a whole in the new DD section because Squeenix clearly doesn't read these forums.

[Natasha]

I certainly hope they do (read these forums), trying to get more people to support this to the point that it would be silly for them to completely ignore it. That being said, yeah... they don't exactly have a track record of saying anything to the drk playing community, much less doing much of what they ask for w/e reason. Can still hope though, and theres no reason not to try if you want something.

[Soidisant]

I'd be happy with Entropy if they changed it to a STR modifier and made the first hit 1.5-1.75 ftp. Then it would be worse damage than Resolution but would have the mp recovery aspect still. Or make it 2.0 ftp with 50% STR / 50% INT mod so would still be slightly worse than Resolution.

I think making Entropy = Resolution would be slightly unfair on Greatsword users. If you did that then Scythe would have more base damage on WS, higher fSTR cap, more acc/atk due to skill and it would recover MP too. There would be no point using Greatsword over Scythe in that scenario unless you had a Relic/Empy Greatsword.

[Urteil]

Make magical attack bonus a mod? That might fix things, we have a ton of gear for that.

[Yukichibi]

With the recent last resort ajustement and the base damage of the scythe, maybe, explain why Entropy seems weaker. (and DRK WS in general).
I think we should see damage in globality, DOT and WS, and not WS alone.
I guess someone will reply that it's easier to maintain a x-build with GS than scythe. (i am not the math type player).

[StingRay104]

I think people have forgotten what balance is, which we all know se has no clue what balance is, so allow me to remind you. Scythe weapons have a longer delay time than greatsword and thus this gives greatsword a higher dps rate than scythes but scythes benefit from having higher tp gains which allow them to ws more frequently, thus there is potential for balance. Now as far as ws damage no scythe ws should ever out do damage than a greatsword ws because with that higher ws frequency then scythe would pull ahead of greatsword, (which btw against peoples constant belief that scythe is our signature weapon we have the highest skill rate in both scythe and greatsword as well as historically in past ff games drk's used greatswords not scythes) so therefore greatsword ws's should always do more damage than scythe ws's but there should be a balance. From what I'm seeing of entropy its guillotine + mp regain, so since it does guillotine damage but a bonus of mp regain which one should you use? As for the whole concept of damage for new ws's I agree all drk ws's need to be higher in the damage tiers, and the best way to do this is rework the formula of attack, we have highest attack in the game so therefore its the simplest solution to our damage problems, hell then wars mountain of crits would make since seeing as how that can't compete with our raw attack.

In conclusion I can't support this thread because it lacks balance and logical thinking but please feel free to demand that SE finally does something right because I believe all players agree that SE's performance is dismal.

[Spiritreaver]

I think people have forgotten what balance is, which we all know se has no clue what balance is, so allow me to remind you. Scythe weapons have a longer delay time than greatsword and thus this gives greatsword a higher dps rate than scythes but scythes benefit from having higher tp gains which allow them to ws more frequently, thus there is potential for balance. Now as far as ws damage no scythe ws should ever out do damage than a greatsword ws because with that higher ws frequency then scythe would pull ahead of greatsword, (which btw against peoples constant belief that scythe is our signature weapon we have the highest skill rate in both scythe and greatsword as well as historically in past ff games drk's used greatswords not scythes) so therefore greatsword ws's should always do more damage than scythe ws's but there should be a balance. From what I'm seeing of entropy its guillotine + mp regain, so since it does guillotine damage but a bonus of mp regain which one should you use? As for the whole concept of damage for new ws's I agree all drk ws's need to be higher in the damage tiers, and the best way to do this is rework the formula of attack, we have highest attack in the game so therefore its the simplest solution to our damage problems, hell then wars mountain of crits would make since seeing as how that can't compete with our raw attack.

In conclusion I can't support this thread because it lacks balance and logical thinking but please feel free to demand that SE finally does something right because I believe all players agree that SE's performance is dismal.

Read the whole post, but @ the bold-that's a slippery slope. Very slippery.

[StingRay104]

Slippery slope or not its still facts, and I read every post in this thread. If you wish to debate something then bring up a point. Keyword is balance

Balance

BALANCE!!!

Before you complain try to understand something, I just explained my reasons for not supporting the concept of just upgrading this ws as opposed to an overall fix to how attack works. Also I should mention that its nice to finally see greatsword get a multihit ws to actually get use of souleater with.

[Rohelius]

Our main weapon? Yeah its good to think its a signature but let's face it we will as a player base revolve around the weapon that is better suited for the activity we find our selfs doing the most.

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20050812202560/ffxi/images/6/66/Ragnarok.jpg
Remember this? Its not a paladin weapon or a warrior weapon so...? Check the skill ratings.

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060612141542/ffxi/images/7/71/Chaosbringer.JPG
This is how we unlock the job.

This is another hint by SE.
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100415165219/ffxi/images/d/d5/Raven_scythe.png


or this?
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080706232228/ffxi/images/1/14/KrakenClub.png

A club yeah... It gets the job done does that mean it our main weapon?
No. its great for certain things.

Now you know...
Great sword = physical. - Powerful Reliable damage WS's and DPS.
Scythe = magical. - Powerful damage that helps to enfeeble the foe and strengthen the drk.

And if you really have no use for the MP drain effect of it why dont we take away the Drain effect from Catastrophe too?
If i use you peoples logic then..
You should have a whm /whm around to heal/regen you anyway so if you lose too much HP that u need a WS to drain then your doing it wrong.... right?
Use both and know they both have their uses.

And seriously, if they made a kraken wand with 10 Hits per swing you be in that so fast...

So in short... I do not care if i have to get two good endgame weapons they are what makes my DRK so fun and versatile, i can go WS spamming hard damage DPS oriented, or i could go low man sideline standing support DD get in get out WS with enfeebling capabilities to boot.

I support it being stronger the guillotine not GS altogether.

[Spiritreaver]

Slippery slope or not its still facts, and I read every post in this thread. If you wish to debate something then bring up a point. Keyword is balance

Balance

BALANCE!!!

Before you complain try to understand something, I just explained my reasons for not supporting the concept of just upgrading this ws as opposed to an overall fix to how attack works. Also I should mention that its nice to finally see greatsword get a multihit ws to actually get use of souleater with.

Hold your horses kid.

I'm all for balance, or BALANCE!!! if you like it that way more. Only thing i wanted to get across in my post was that FFXI is a different beast in regards to other titles in the FF line, its an MMO not a single-player game. And partially basing BALANCE!!! in this game on what came in other FF titles is in fact a slippery slope.

Where do you draw the line? You can pull all sorts of things from various previous FF titles and use them to say, "Hey why can't X job do Y move/ability/spell in FFXI? It could do it in FF<BLANK>!!!". Or use those skills to justify a reason to change something about a job here in FFXI.

Just saying, if you are gonna decry a general consensus in FFXI, best to back it up with support from this game.


That said


You are as entitled to your opinion as anyone else here. But really


* WS has a silly mod-DRK is a melee DD. STR, DEX, maybe VIT...but INT?!?

* WS generates MP-When MP isn't an issue when the job is played half right

* WS produces DMG comparable to a WS DRK got an eternity ago at a cost of ALOT of merits-when you can just use said old-school WS for zero merits.


Maybe its more that SE still doesn't know how to BALANCE!!! additions to DRK and not so much DRKs in general forgetting what BALANCE!!! is.



bal·ance    Show IPA noun, verb, -anced, -anc·ing.
noun
[B]1.
a state of equilibrium or equipoise; equal distribution of weight, amount, etc.
2.
something used to produce equilibrium; counterpoise.
3.
mental steadiness or emotional stability; habit of calm behavior, judgment, etc.
4.
a state of bodily equilibrium: He lost his balance and fell down the stairs.
5.
an instrument for determining weight, typically by the equilibrium of a bar with a fulcrum at the center, from each end of which is suspended a scale or pan, one holding an object of known weight, and the other holding the object to be weighed.
Balance (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/balance)

I remember some time back when SE said they wanted DRKs to use scythes more. They specifically said that. How does giving DRK another gimmicky Guillotine rehash(see Insurgency) equate to either BALANCE!!! or SE's statement? If anything, its like others have said, and SE seems to be wanting great sword to be DRK's thing now.

You like great swords? That's fine and dandy. I do too, but speaking just for me i picked the job up way back when because i wanted to swing a scythe. And if SE is gonna give us a new scythe WS, how's about they really make it a new WS. Not a WS we've gotten twice now in slightly different forms. Is having two strong WSs<edit-one for great sword and one for scythe> on the job so much to ask?

I don't think so.

Now, if SE has some grand vision for giving DRK this new WS(and let's face it outside of farming, do you really see BST or BLM using this?), now would be the time for them to break their silence when it comes to DRK and spit it out. But i doubt that is gonna happen anytime soon.

I say more power to the OP for making this thread. I'm all for it.

[Soidisant]

Tbh the biggest kick in the nuts about Entropy is that it literally has a worse ftp modifier than Guillotine (0.75 compared to 0.875). It's hardly like Guillotine has ever been overpowered to begin with and they couldn't even give Scythe a WS that outdamages that.

Like I said, it's a nice WS for what it does. It just isn't the WS we wanted or needed.

And to those saying Greatsword is just as much our signature weapon as Scythe. You all must have a short memory. It was only a few years back when SE complained about DRK's using Greatsword instead of Scythe and that it was a major concern they wanted to address.

[StingRay104]

Hold your horses kid.

I'm all for balance, or BALANCE!!! if you like it that way more. Only thing i wanted to get across in my post was that FFXI is a different beast in regards to other titles in the FF line, its an MMO not a single-player game. And partially basing BALANCE!!! in this game on what came in other FF titles is in fact a slippery slope.

Where do you draw the line? You can pull all sorts of things from various previous FF titles and use them to say, "Hey why can't X job do Y move/ability/spell in FFXI? It could do it in FF<BLANK>!!!". Or use those skills to justify a reason to change something about a job here in FFXI.

Just saying, if you are gonna decry a general consensus in FFXI, best to back it up with support from this game.


That said


You are as entitled to your opinion as anyone else here. But really


* WS has a silly mod-DRK is a melee DD. STR, DEX, maybe VIT...but INT?!?

* WS generates MP-When MP isn't an issue when the job is played half right

* WS produces DMG comparable to a WS DRK got an eternity ago at a cost of ALOT of merits-when you can just use said old-school WS for zero merits.


Maybe its more that SE still doesn't know how to BALANCE!!! additions to DRK and not so much DRKs in general forgetting what BALANCE!!! is.



Balance (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/balance)

I remember some time back when SE said they wanted DRKs to use scythes more. They specifically said that. How does giving DRK another gimmicky Guillotine rehash(see Insurgency) equate to either BALANCE!!! or SE's statement? If anything, its like others have said, and SE seems to be wanting great sword to be DRK's thing now.

You like great swords? That's fine and dandy. I do too, but speaking just for me i picked the job up way back when because i wanted to swing a scythe. And if SE is gonna give us a new scythe WS, how's about they really make it a new WS. Not a WS we've gotten twice now in slightly different forms. Is having two strong WSs<edit-one for great sword and one for scythe> on the job so much to ask?

I don't think so.

Now, if SE has some grand vision for giving DRK this new WS(and let's face it outside of farming, do you really see BST or BLM using this?), now would be the time for them to break their silence when it comes to DRK and spit it out. But i doubt that is gonna happen anytime soon.

I say more power to the OP for making this thread. I'm all for it.

Your calling me a kid when you just go on a little temper tantrum because I happen to disagree with OP's thread and alot of the ideas because they aren't taking balance into consideration. Perhaps you should look up hypocrit while your at it. All OP wanted to know is if people supported his concept of damage increase to this ws and what it should be and the following posts are all saying this should be as strong or stronger than any greatsword ws, so I decided to inform them of base balance of each weapon. As for your slippery slope concept, your wrong. SE bases almost all of this game off its past franchises, sure they do some things different but the overall flavor is still there, but if you want FFXI specific examples because you don't think it relevent otherwise then I will oblige. RNG has 2 main skills, marksmanship and archery, yet both are at a A- rating as is greatsword for DRK, in fact DRK has the highest skill rating in greatsword and is a very strong and useful weapon for DRK, not to mention the previous FF flavor but we are ignoring this. To completely ignore the balance of all of DRKs capabilities is foolish, which of course why we are so upset with SE to begin with. The whole point of my post which seems completely lost on you is that we should be constantly telling SE to bring the balance back to DRK, as well as many other jobs, because if we can get SE to balance the job then everything will fall into place.

If the foundation is flawed then the whole building will fall.

[Natasha]

Stop with the fighting! For the record, StingRay, you're wrong about the balance BUT this is not a debate thread ><

If you do not support it, don't support it, don't come in here and start trying to lecture people lol

Edit: thanks for the support from those who gave it~ special : spiritreaver >_>

[Rohelius]

And to those saying Greatsword is just as much our signature weapon as Scythe. You all must have a short memory. It was only a few years back when SE complained about DRK's using Greatsword instead of Scytheand that it was a major concern they wanted to address.

Yeah I remember people with scythes would be called noobs.
Grab GS sub thf you noob!

SE had a problem with drk only utilizing GS and dismissing scythe.

[Spiritreaver]

Sorry about that Natasha, i woulda taken that to a PM, but alas don't think we have those here.

Again though, 100% for Entropy getting boosted into something.

EDIT ADD-

@StingRay104

Just replying in kind fella

[Natasha]

Sorry about that Natasha, i woulda taken that to a PM, but alas don't think we have those here.

Again though, 100% for Entropy getting boosted into something.

EDIT ADD-

@StingRay104

Just replying in kind fella

Yeah, I know~

Its a little hard to avoid here, and to be honest... if people would just do as I requested I don't think there would be a problem ^^;

This thread is to show support for boosting the ws, if you don't want it boosted don't support it. - I think this is fairly simple... there are other threads open debating the new weapon skills as is.

Friendly comments are okay of course~ and im mostly happy with responses thus far.. just need more support!

[Chriscoffey]

Dark needs adjusted and I am all for scythe being adjusted in the right way , however, SE doesn't intend to do this considering the almost past 4 years they have let dark go downhill.

[Natasha]

Dark needs adjusted and I am all for scythe being adjusted in the right way , however, SE doesn't intend to do this considering the almost past 4 years they have let dark go downhill.

Its worth a try, thanks for supporting~

[echoelman]

I'd rather have SE differentiate Scythe and Great Sword instead of making Entropy = Resolution for Scythe.

I can accept that perhaps they're pushing Scythe as the "utility" weapon whereas GS is pure damage...but are DRKS invited for their utility? No, and that's why this new WS is currently an undesirable clone. Why not encourage DRKs to choose their weapon according to the situation? So either

1. Keep your INT modifier but make Entropy an elemental WS that doesn't suck, affected by +MAB. Wildfire for DRK. Obviously anything that resists it throws this WS out of the window, but at least it has its niche. In this scenario, I'd drop MP restore for solid damage.

2. Keep Entropy the same but dramatically increase the potency of our spell-casting (too vague and unlikely).

3. Reduce the MP restore effect on Entropy by 25-50% but let us ****ing swing and cast simultaneously.

Have to make this a stance? Worried that Occult Acumen becomes too useful? Fine, balance it with increased spell costs or diminish/negate Occult Acumen, though we certainly don't have the MP, Fast Cast, or the spells to magic-zerg anything in the first place. Touching attack speed/Attack would be a big turn-off, and I can't see increasing casting time or recast time any further as a fair trade, either. Or hey, stick to tradition and have the stance reduce our HP in tics or in proportional to MP spent. GS still more useful with said stance? Job ability only takes effect with wielding a Scythe.

The only "downside" is that you could have the incentive to always cast while attacking, but it's safe to say that the game's existing mechanics would discourage this behavior.

tl;dr: Make Entropy a niche (elemental WS) that appeals to the DD nature of DRK or destroy the penalties for casting in the first place, making MP a desirable resource.

[Natasha]

Well to be honest I don't much care if its Entropy or any other scythe ws but Entropy is new, in testing, and is a special ws (unlock via merits, maybe last ws?) and scythe really needs a new damage ws period. Guillotine being the only reasonable damage ws for scythe and its not that impressive in and of itself has been the ws of choice for scythe for far too long. I would actually rather have scythe be stronger than GS but I understand that is an unreasonable expectation so I would be happy enough just to see it brought up to be on par with resolution.

Edit: Can one of you guys explain to me why you really want Scythe as utility instead of GS?

I know Gs is loved but... GS for drk vs GA for war (GA wins out in both DMG and skill rating)
GS for drk vs Pole for Drg (same story)
GS for drk vs GK for sam ( GS wins DMG but not skill rating)

Why would you not want the weapon with the higher DMG and skill rating to be the damage weapon? Sorry to ask but its SOOOO confusing to me :s

[echoelman]

It's not so much that I want Scythe to the utility weapon, but it seems that from SE's standpoint, it would be difficult to to match Scythe to GS' current prowess without differentiating them somehow, outside of number of hits in a WS and the difference in skill levels. If they focus purely on melee damage, one is going to be overall better than the other, or they're going to be the same. If Scythe becomes better, GS is kicked into the gutter. And if they're the same, what's the point of having the option? Aesthetic?

And for as much as people bitch and moan about MP being mostly useless, would you still use GS and Resolution if Entropy did 100-200 points less damage on average but still restored a crapton of MP?

[Natasha]

It's not so much that I want Scythe to the utility weapon, but it seems that from SE's standpoint, it would be difficult to to match Scythe to GS' current prowess without differentiating them somehow, outside of number of hits in a WS and the difference in skill levels. If they focus purely on melee damage, one is going to be overall better than the other, or they're going to be the same. If Scythe becomes better, GS is kicked into the gutter. And if they're the same, what's the point of having the option? Aesthetic?

And for as much as people bitch and moan about MP being mostly useless, would you still use GS and Resolution if Entropy did 100-200 points less damage on average but still restored a crapton of MP?

I personally would likely use it regardless but I'm kinda funny that way (I frequently use spiral hell when im not doing something serious because i like it). I see what you mean, and yes SE does seem to be going that direction but thats why I made this petition ^^

My deal is, at this point we have a wealth of weapon skills, and they plan to re-evaluate our past weapon skills as well, so I dont see why they cant both have a couple of viable damage weapon skills even if one is more dedicated to utility... for that matter, why can they not both have a measure of utility? Both having different strengths damage wise and both having differing utility would be an interesting way to do it.

Just thinking out loud now lol

[echoelman]

I dont see why they cant both have a couple of viable damage weapon skills even if one is more dedicated to utility... for that matter, why can they not both have a measure of utility? Both having different strengths damage wise and both having differing utility would be an interesting way to do it.

Just thinking out loud now lol


That would be the optimal solution! And a complete and utter surprise from SE.

[Rohelius]

Why would you not want the weapon with the higher DMG and skill rating to be the damage weapon? Sorry to ask but its SOOOO confusing to me :s

Generally speaking, great swords have average delay and damage for two-handed weapons, but their true potential is in their weapon skills. Great sword weapon skills are highly skillchain-friendly, especially for Dark Knights who sometimes have a hard time skillchaining with their Scythes. Because great sword weapon skills are primarily physical damage and single-hit, they are often much more reliable in their damage output than multi-hit weapon skills and also benefit the most from powerful single-hit job abilities such as Sneak Attack and Boost.
Any of that sound familiar?

And this~
Scythes are a high damage and high delay two-handed weapon, and focus primarily on damage output over enfeebling weaponskills or additional effects. Early on, a scythe wielder may find themselves hindered in making popular skillchains, so it is often recommended that scythe users carry a second weapon in case a certain skillchain is required. Dark Knights will frequently use a Great Sword for this purpose.

It used to be the Skillchain weapon for the endgame scene, but it later became the norm for merit parties that were fast paced weapon skill spam fests. but i think its more because everything became this big race towards 100% TP in which GS at the time was better then Scythe then with /SAM, STP, 2-handed weapon update and a lot of Haste it became just as fast to 100TP and having a higher base DMG weapon just makes more sense when ACC gear is more easily accessible.

[Natasha]

I understand how gs work, but if SE seems to be trying to move one weapon over to being utility and one to being damage focused I would think that people would want the stronger weapon to be the one focused on damage.

[Rohelius]

Yeah people want a lot of things and i do not blame them. But when you are not hitting as much because you are casting you would want your hits to hit hard right? same for WS?
well that's why i think they made scythe's base DMG higher with longer delay imo.

[Natasha]

Yeah people want a lot of things and i do not blame them. But when your not hitting as much because your casting you would want your hits to hit hard no? same for WS? well thats base DMG bump imo.

Not quite sure what you're getting at.

[Hextitan]

Not quite sure what you're getting at.

I think he's saying, technically GS doing more WS damage shouldn't matter in the long run because Scythe has much higher base damage. So it comes down to DoT vs WS.

Regardless, our Scythe WSs kinda suck, and I doubt it's for the reason he gave. I'm more apt to believe SE doesn't know what the hell they're doing. We asked for a better WS after Quietus, asked for months, and they gave us Entropy.

It's crazy that they tell us "ok guys, give us feedback" then never acknowledge us, or even post once telling us "hey guys we at least read what you said". I could understand excessive complaining getting old on another board, but they literally asked us for feedback on ways to improve the game and DRK specifically.

[Natasha]

I think he's saying, technically GS doing more WS damage shouldn't matter in the long run because Scythe has much higher base damage. So it comes down to DoT vs WS.

Regardless, our Scythe WSs kinda suck, and I doubt it's for the reason he gave. I'm more apt to believe SE doesn't know what the hell they're doing. We asked for a better WS after Quietus, asked for months, and they gave us Entropy.

It's crazy that they tell us "ok guys, give us feedback" then never acknowledge us, or even post once telling us "hey guys we at least read what you said". I could understand excessive complaining getting old on another board, but they literally asked us for feedback on ways to improve the game and DRK specifically.

Well, yeah... A big part of why they made these official forums was for better communication wasn't it? At least that is what I was lead to believe in respect to ffxiv.

[night159]

I support this petition. Entropy needs to be fixed, the mp drain is nice but it needs a new modifier. I really hope they change it because the past few scythe weaponskills have sucked and DRKs should not have to have the relic scythe to be on par with other DD's and should not have to use a secondary weapon as their main.

[Natasha]

I support this petition. Entropy needs to be fixed, the mp drain is nice but it needs a new modifier. I really hope they change it because the past few scythe weaponskills have sucked and DRKs should not have to have the relic scythe to be on par with other DD's and should not have to use a secondary weapon as their main.

Thanks for supporting~

[Juggernautx]

The Juggernautx supports this petition.

[Quetzacoatl]

Your calling me a kid when you just go on a little temper tantrum because I happen to disagree with OP's thread and alot of the ideas because they aren't taking balance into consideration. Perhaps you should look up hypocrit while your at it. All OP wanted to know is if people supported his concept of damage increase to this ws and what it should be and the following posts are all saying this should be as strong or stronger than any greatsword ws, so I decided to inform them of base balance of each weapon. As for your slippery slope concept, your wrong. SE bases almost all of this game off its past franchises, sure they do some things different but the overall flavor is still there, but if you want FFXI specific examples because you don't think it relevent otherwise then I will oblige. RNG has 2 main skills, marksmanship and archery, yet both are at a A- rating as is greatsword for DRK, in fact DRK has the highest skill rating in greatsword and is a very strong and useful weapon for DRK, not to mention the previous FF flavor but we are ignoring this. To completely ignore the balance of all of DRKs capabilities is foolish, which of course why we are so upset with SE to begin with. The whole point of my post which seems completely lost on you is that we should be constantly telling SE to bring the balance back to DRK, as well as many other jobs, because if we can get SE to balance the job then everything will fall into place.

If the foundation is flawed then the whole building will fall.

The irony in your becoming defensive when the other person you're responding to was giving his point of view just goes to show that you're not helping your argument much by responding to him like that. Smells like mad up in here.

Just my two cents.

[StingRay104]

The irony in your becoming defensive when the other person you're responding to was giving his point of view just goes to show that you're not helping your argument much by responding to him like that. Smells like mad up in here.

Just my two cents.

Funny thing is this was in response to his defensive statement, so I tried to take it to his level so that he could understand, but oh well I better stop before I get the told I'm not allowed at the cool kids forum.

Btw how come when others bring up balance related issues they don't get booed off stage? Just my 2 cents.

[Siiri]

I'll sign, make it not another guillotine please, something different and better after 35 levels. Right now my drk is g.sword only which probably wasn't going to change since Torcleaver, but it would be nice to still have scythe as an option. Right now it is retired permanently.

[Natasha]

Thanks those who supported recently~

[Morier]

The weaponskill is as true to DRK's nature as can be. It doesn't do much damage, but looks cool. Just like DRK.

[SpankWustler]

Apparently, all hits of entropy have the same .75 fTP as the initial hit. I didn't grasp how people were coming up with "less damage than Guillotine" from looking at the Entropy's presumed statistics on paper, but a total fTP of 3 for four hits would definitely do the trick.

I thought that I might as well post this here after reading it a couple other places, because every good wound needs salt.

[Raelia]

If Eight 1.0 hits are too much, make it eight 0.75 fTP hits. SE has shown they can set the multiplier of secondary hits with Jishnu's Radiance and Last Stand, so I'll believe for now that Entropy is 0.75 on all hits.

How SE thinks Guillotine is still a competitive WS for Scythe and that the level 96+ WS for Scythe should be even weaker than that is completely beyond my comprehension though.

Eight hits, 0.75 each? Perfect weaponskill to make Scythe relevant and competitive without completely shoving Great Sword out. Insane Souleater damage at cost of poor scaling on hard targets.

[Natasha]

Apparently, all hits of entropy have the same .75 fTP as the initial hit. I didn't grasp how people were coming up with "less damage than Guillotine" from looking at the Entropy's presumed statistics on paper, but a total fTP of 3 for four hits would definitely do the trick.

I thought that I might as well post this here after reading it a couple other places, because every good wound needs salt.

Thanks for the info, thats much worse than I expected :/

[Reaper]

as someone who leveled drk as his first job to 75, I'd like to say that as much as I like Guillotine, we need a scythe ws that is outright stronger, I don't know what exactly entropy needs, but right now guillotine is our best weapon skill in any situation, off hand I cant think of any weapon skill longer running in a position like that(there might be but I cant think of one atm), as to the subject of the mp recover, I really don't care, as a galka drk at 95 with 6 mp merits i have 293 mp, and i do fine between the bale collar and the occasional aspir, but regardless of whether they keep that part or not, it needs a damage boost, and I support this post

[Natasha]

as someone who leveled drk as his first job to 75, I'd like to say that as much as I like Guillotine, we need a scythe ws that is outright stronger, I don't know what exactly entropy needs, but right now guillotine is our best weapon skill in any situation, off hand I cant think of any weapon skill longer running in a position like that(there might be but I cant think of one atm), as to the subject of the mp recover, I really don't care, as a galka drk at 95 with 6 mp merits i have 293 mp, and i do fine between the bale collar and the occasional aspir, but regardless of whether they keep that part or not, it needs a damage boost, and I support this post

Thanks for the support.

[Chriscoffey]

If Eight 1.0 hits are too much, make it eight 0.75 fTP hits. SE has shown they can set the multiplier of secondary hits with Jishnu's Radiance and Last Stand, so I'll believe for now that Entropy is 0.75 on all hits.

How SE thinks Guillotine is still a competitive WS for Scythe and that the level 96+ WS for Scythe should be even weaker than that is completely beyond my comprehension though.

Eight hits, 0.75 each? Perfect weaponskill to make Scythe relevant and competitive without completely shoving Great Sword out. Insane Souleater damage at cost of poor scaling on hard targets.
The hitrate on 8 hits is by far the most damaging reason why I don't want this weapon skill set as such. I rather the values be raised because at 95% hitrate you are really going to have a hard time to hit all 8 of those hits as pure luck. That is if the accuracy cap hasn't been changed on any updates I have forgot to read lately.

[Rohelius]

This is the old days of Dark Knight and why it got such a bad rep, also why i don't think 8hit WS is the answer..

DRK buffs up pops Souleater...

DRK uses WS the foe takes XXXX damage!

Foe turns around one shots DRK.....

DRK feels pretty good about himself...

Party... /facepalm

[Natasha]

This is the old days of Dark Knight and why it got such a bad rep, also why i don't think 8hit WS is the answer..

DRK buffs up pops Souleater...

DRK uses WS the foe takes XXXX damage!

Foe turns around one shots DRK.....

DRK feels pretty good about himself...

Party... /facepalm

Maybe, maybe not. I just want to see it improved in some way that is significant and in the way of higher damage (drk is a DD after all).

[Gaspee]

I do not play Dark Knight at all, but generally, scythe has always been especially lackluster comparatively to great sword (save Apocalypse). For what it's worth, I support the OP.

[Natasha]

I do not play Dark Knight at all, but generally, scythe has always been especially lackluster comparatively to great sword (save Apocalypse). For what it's worth, I support the OP.

Many thanks for that.

[Kyled24]

I don't understand SE. If scythe is the strongest melee weapon in the game, why the heck do the weapon skills get outplayed by almost EVERYTHING in the game. I have been playing Drk for 5 years and let me tell you.. each of these version updates has literally created a "Dead Knight". This job is very close to being considered the oh so popular "loldrg". Why should a job be too disgusted to use its own main weapon? Drk is forced to result to sticking to a Great Sword, the king of all the Drk damage... SE please fix this job..

[Armangetto]

I did some more testing with Entropy today on elder gubues in the boyha tree. (Sorry I have no Idea where or what mobs to use outside of abyssea for testing so I figured I would use a place I used to farm and for Magian trials.)

The 1st batch was done with +59 int + 65 str 930 attack with last resort, 10% da.

2526
1654
1712
2132
2093
3127
1350
2114
2016
3001

The 1350 missed the 1st hit, the 3001 was 300 tp possable da proc and the 3127 was with soul eater on. The rest were at 100 tp.

The 2nd bach was done with +59 int + 65 str 930 attack with last resort, 3% da(I forgot to take off atheling mantle). This time I use absorb int and the shadow gorget and belt. I use dark seal and neither void to get more int from absorb int. Int was +79(no seal/neither void) +94 (with seal/neither void).

2634
2678
2557
2951
2408
2702
3033
2618
3060
2938

The 3000s were done at 100 tp no da proc.

In my opinion the elemental gorget/belt stacked with as much int as possable, taking to acount acc, att, ect, boosts Entropys dmg quite a bit. I belive that it is a bit stronger than Guillotine. I think because we lack int gear to test entropy on the test server, might be why people think Entropy dmg is bad and worse than Guillotine. Hence why I used absorb int and seal/void to get a massive boost to int for testing.

In summery I belive Entroy can out dmg Guillotine using elemental belt/gorget with enough int (maybe equal int to the amount str you would gear for Guillotine?), wich also helps close the gap dmg wise bettween entroy and resolution but will probaly never out dmg resoultion.

i hope this helps out the people who know how to test entropy and the new ws in general.

[Natasha]

Question really isnt anything having to do with guillotine, scythe has been lackluster .... well since ever. Now with GS getting resolution there is pretty much no reason at all to use scythe.. I think. The weapon skill is still lacking.

[Saiken253]

I support this 100%. I've been a drk player ever since the job was released. I have always loved the combination of melee and magic(with more emphasis on melee; blu would be the reverse in a way). I don't believe what people are saying with Scythe being the Utility weapon for DRK. It wouldn't be our A+ weapon if it were. In fact, GS was/is more utility than scythe (sleepga WS, paralyze WS, ect).

From what I hear and have read, Entropy needs a huge boost. And for all those people that are making arguments against making Entropy = Resolution here's what I have to say. Personalization/specialization. Sure we can have BOTH if we really wanted, and so what? WAR can use Resolution and with Mighty Strikes that would be an insane WS, will they do that? maybe maybe not.

I have a caladbolg, and I wouldn't have gotten it if quietus was any good, and before Torcleaver I was a die-hard scythe DRK. I miss using my scythe, because I know it(outside Apocalypse) is a joke now. Having our best weapon being the worst weapon in the game is unfair. Especially since it has the highest damage rating. I say make Entropy = Resolution so that DRKs can start playing exactly the way they want to and not get laughed at regardless of their decision.

Again, I support this thread 100%, no- make that 200%.

[Armangetto]

I agree that Entropy does need a boost to be competitive with resoultion. Im just saying, I believe entropy is better than guillotine when geared properly. Also Quiteus needs a major boost.

[Natasha]

thanks for the support~

[Calamity]

So, I'm not against it, but at the same time I haven't decided whether or not I'm for it. But one thing that keeps bothering me that I keep reading throughout this, is the number of people who seem to regard greatsword as being an not being as suitable a weapon for drk as scythe. While it is true that we do have a higher skill in scythe, what other job can really make as good a use out of GS as a drk? Not pld. They just don't have the means to but forth the DD to make this feasible. And not war. Despite having the second highest GS skill, they've always been denied all the decent WS's up til now. So though we be the scythe masters of the game, we're also the true GS masters as well.

Therein lies my problem. While this thread was built because scythe seems to be overshadowed by GS, all I'm seeing is people who think GS should be overshadowed by scythe. This I believe to be wrong.

And when you think about it, it's not so hard to understand why SE made this WS weaker. It's been said multiple times in fact. Scythe is, in fact, our the most powerful weapon type in the game. It's base damage is huge, especially compared to GS. It's also almost effortless to make a 5 hit with it, whereas with GS you need to build up your store tp to build your 6 hit. That said, it's not really hard to understand SE's decision, it's that balance thing they're always talking about. The higher damage weapon with the lower xhit gets the weaker ws, while the lower damage ws with the higher xhit gets the stronger one. I'd not be surprised to see Camate pop in here and say something similar.

All that said, again, I'm not really opposing this petition, nor am I trying to flame or degradate it, I'm just trying to add additional perspective. No more, no less.

[Natasha]

Thats a fair enough statement, I personally do not wish for either to be 'over shadowed' by the other. I want them both to be strong.

[Cljader1]

So, I'm not against it, but at the same time I haven't decided whether or not I'm for it. But one thing that keeps bothering me that I keep reading throughout this, is the number of people who seem to regard greatsword as being an not being as suitable a weapon for drk as scythe. While it is true that we do have a higher skill in scythe, what other job can really make as good a use out of GS as a drk? Not pld. They just don't have the means to but forth the DD to make this feasible. And not war. Despite having the second highest GS skill, they've always been denied all the decent WS's up til now. So though we be the scythe masters of the game, we're also the true GS masters as well.

Therein lies my problem. While this thread was built because scythe seems to be overshadowed by GS, all I'm seeing is people who think GS should be overshadowed by scythe. This I believe to be wrong.

And when you think about it, it's not so hard to understand why SE made this WS weaker. It's been said multiple times in fact. Scythe is, in fact, our the most powerful weapon type in the game. It's base damage is huge, especially compared to GS. It's also almost effortless to make a 5 hit with it, whereas with GS you need to build up your store tp to build your 6 hit. That said, it's not really hard to understand SE's decision, it's that balance thing they're always talking about. The higher damage weapon with the lower xhit gets the weaker ws, while the lower damage ws with the higher xhit gets the stronger one. I'd not be surprised to see Camate pop in here and say something similar.

All that said, again, I'm not really opposing this petition, nor am I trying to flame or degradate it, I'm just trying to add additional perspective. No more, no less.

I understand what your saying but if GS is stronger than Scythe its a huge problem, granted that a warrior will be able to use Resolution. Drk even with a -A skill wont be able to buff a resolution like a war can, Drk has LR and SE too buff the ws whereas a war has Mighty Strikes, Berserk, Restraint, Blood Rage, Warrior Charge, and on top of all that they have native Double Attack JT and Double Attack Merits. If war is able to use this weaponskill it will outright embarrass drks, thats what the huge problem its, SE needs to put scythe back on top or give drks a JA that gives buffs or enhances them when using a GS.

[Yukichibi]

I understand what your saying but if GS is stronger than Scythe its a huge problem, granted that a warrior will be able to use Resolution. Drk even with a -A skill wont be able to buff a resolution like a war can, Drk has LR and SE too buff the ws whereas a war has Mighty Strikes, Berserk, Restraint, Blood Rage, Warrior Charge, and on top of all that they have native Double Attack JT and Double Attack Merits. If war is able to use this weaponskill it will outright embarrass drks, thats what the huge problem its, SE needs to put scythe back on top or give drks a JA that gives buffs or enhances them when using a GS.

War is elligible to entropy too.

[Cljader1]

War is elligible to entropy too.

If they can it'll be with a real crappy scythe, they have much better choices on GS....Are the new WS's based on combat skill?

[Natasha]

If they can it'll be with a real crappy scythe, they have much better choices on GS....Are the new WS's based on combat skill?

How do you mean? They require a skill of 357 to merit them if thats what you mean.

[Cljader1]

How do you mean? They require a skill of 357 to merit them if thats what you mean.

Yeah that's what I mean, then war definitely have access to resolution, and they can zerg it better than we can. Drk is officially an embarrassment, I'll sign the petition...buff entrophy and stop embarrassing us please.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Resolution has been tested to have an attack penalty of approximately -40%, ensuring it won't be used versus anything but the weakest fodder.

final summary here:

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/106679-Test-Server-Findings?p=4923288&viewfull=1#post4923288

[Natasha]

Resolution has been tested to have an attack penalty of approximately -40%, ensuring it won't be used versus anything but the weakest fodder.

final summary here:

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/106679-Test-Server-Findings?p=4923288&viewfull=1#post4923288

Already aware of this information, it still pulls ahead by a good margin on lower def. mobs and for higher def. mobs GS has torcleaver.

Even barring torcleaver, GS still has spinning slash and ground strike against high def. mobs.

[Cowardlybabooon]

I'm not a 95 drk but I pay attention. Am I the only person who likes that the tables were turned after GSD lived in the trash can for years?

[Natasha]

I'm not a 95 drk but I pay attention. Am I the only person who likes that the tables were turned after GSD lived in the trash can for years?

1. no you're not the only one, but prolly not in the majority. 2. GS was never in the trash, spinning slash was always useful. 3. why would you want scythe to suck? I can see no reason not to want them both to be strong.

[Spiritreaver]

I'm not a 95 drk but I pay attention. Am I the only person who likes that the tables were turned after GSD lived in the trash can for years?

Not well however.

[Hextitan]

The new GS WS is kinda terrible too. I was just skimming BG but apparently it has some sort of Attack penalty.

[Spiritreaver]

Resolution has been tested to have an attack penalty of approximately -40%, ensuring it won't be used versus anything but the weakest fodder.

final summary here:

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/106679-Test-Server-Findings?p=4923288&viewfull=1#post4923288


The new GS WS is kinda terrible too. I was just skimming BG but apparently it has some sort of Attack penalty.

I honestly hadn't looked at the GS merit WS that closely, but my god. Seems like SE is just wasted yet more time that could have been spent elsewhere.

Why make a yet another tier of WSs, this time making them absolutely gorgeous; but then peppering them with reasons for the players to not bother with them? Christ!!!

[Sappho]

As a player whose first (and only) 75 is Dark Knight, I would dearly love to see a Scythe weapon skill that puts Guillotine to rest. I love me some Guillotine, but the level 99 weapon skill should make it look like a paper cut.

/signed

[Saiken253]

Again, 200% for this petition.

However, people keep making arguments that 1 should be stronger than the other, and that Resolution and Entropy shouldn't have the same damage. I still believe they should be the same in damage. If they are, it'll give people that play DRK a real choice in using the type of weapon they love the most; instead of being forced to use 1 weapon over the other because it's clearly better. Make them equivalent so that people can start doing what they want to do and not be ridiculed by everyone else.

[Natasha]

Thanks to those showing support.

[Calamity]

Again, 200% for this petition.

However, people keep making arguments that 1 should be stronger than the other, and that Resolution and Entropy shouldn't have the same damage. I still believe they should be the same in damage. If they are, it'll give people that play DRK a real choice in using the type of weapon they love the most; instead of being forced to use 1 weapon over the other because it's clearly better. Make them equivalent so that people can start doing what they want to do and not be ridiculed by everyone else.

But if both weapons did the same damage, what would be the point of having different weapons? Again, it's a trade off, of a weapon that does more damage per hit, and can WS more often getting the weaker ws, vs the weapon that does less damage per hit and takes longer to build tp for a ws getting the stronger. Would the game be better if every weapon were exactly the same just with a different look?

Has anyone tried a long term parse between both these WS's using proper gear sets and weapons? Is the long term damage so catastrophically different? If anyone has done it I would very much like to see these numbers.

[Taint2]

But if both weapons did the same damage, what would be the point of having different weapons? Again, it's a trade off, of a weapon that does more damage per hit, and can WS more often getting the weaker ws, vs the weapon that does less damage per hit and takes longer to build tp for a ws getting the stronger. Would the game be better if every weapon were exactly the same just with a different look?

Has anyone tried a long term parse between both these WS's using proper gear sets and weapons? Is the long term damage so catastrophically different? If anyone has done it I would very much like to see these numbers.


You don't have to. Once you calculate the fTP/mods and number of hits it can be mathed out.

The GS weapon has a huge attack penalty making it ok on Fodder but lack luster on anything above that. I'm hoping that these are the not the final forms of the WS and that they are still tweaking them.

[Hextitan]

Well SE finally paid attention to us, and this thread specifically!

And made Entropy steal MORE MP!

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/17245-dev1049-New-weapon-skills?p=239652&viewfull=1#post239652

[Natasha]

Well SE finally paid attention to us, and this thread specifically!

And made Entropy steal MORE MP!

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/17245-dev1049-New-weapon-skills?p=239652&viewfull=1#post239652

Thanks for posting that here, gonna update the OP.

[Saiken253]

From what I've heard, SE must half read 1/4 or probably less of all posts... I sincerely hope they increase Entropy's damage at least to be superior to Guillotine before release(in my case, regulars for at least 4k seeing as my guillotine's do 3.8 normally).

[Saiken253]

So like, just read in the "we finally did it" thread, they are reading our posts o_o

So~ how's our little petition here to improve Entropy going? :3

[Natasha]

So like, just read in the "we finally did it" thread, they are reading our posts o_o

So~ how's our little petition here to improve Entropy going? :3

Seemingly not that well.

[Urteil]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/17245-dev1049-New-weapon-skills/page22
WTF IS THIS SHIT.

Fixed. -_-

[Cljader1]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post239652

WTF IS THIS SHIT.

Hey Urteil the link isn't working

[Chriscoffey]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post239652

WTF IS THIS SHIT.

Could you please write down what this was in reference too since the link is no longer active.

[Urteil]

Could you please write down what this was in reference too since the link is no longer active.

Fixed. -_____-

[Hextitan]

Fixed. -_____-

Link still don't work.

[Urteil]

Was just me posting a link to the dev response that said: LOL WE RAISED THE MP RECOVERY FOR THE SPELLS YOU NEVER FUCKING USE DERPITY-DERPENSTEIN.

[Taint2]

(in my case, regulars for at least 4k seeing as my guillotine's do 3.8 normally).


Even with SE up Guillotine is not doing 3.8k normally.

Entropy is pretty useless, they should give it an attack boost.

[Saiken253]

then my parser must be broken~ and i rarely use SE. usually only when i know i won't take hate/will survive retribution from my target, which is rare indeed when using SE lol... makes me sad really.

[ShadedOnyx]

Thinking about it. I am overjoyed at the amount of power Great Sword has finally recieved. I think the potency of Entropy could use a bonus. It's sad that our level 60 ws outshine our level 75 and 80 ws. Raging Rush does so much damage. Crit or Not. It shouldn't out do others. That's for warriors. For Drk's It's hard. Guillotine is so... So so old. If they Alone changed the Mod to Str for Entropy I think you'd see a much larger damage boon. I think 8 hits is an interesting idea. That actually completes solidfys GS and Scythe as seperate weapons that have they're own uses. I don't want Entropy to not Drain MP though. I think gaining MP from a WS is something that we should get. Catastrophe Drains HP.

To some what organize my thoughts.
A. 4hits:
Scythe has been hitting 4times for our supposed power weaponskills for way to long. With Quietus being a different option for mobs that have high defense. A multi-hit ws that was more then 4hits would be very very nice.
B. Back before the empyrean and mythic periods the competitions for weaponskills on drks were Spinning Slash and Guillotine. Guillotine was better when you used SE and could deal massive quantities of damage. Spinning Slash was consistant. It could do consistant high numbers against mobs regardless of they're level and strength. The fact that Insurgency has been so weak is saddening.
C. I like Entropy. It's a fun ws. I think the most direct solution would be to make it a Strength modifier. Scythe Skill was associated with Strength back in Sea. Why can't Gsword and Scythe both be strength. Since drk's have some of the highest strength scores in the game naturally.
D. I like the idea's of seen about Drk getting Noir and Noir II or whatever you wish to call them. Personally I think drk should have less elemental magic and better smarter Dark magic. Personally Lets make Dark Knight a Unique Spell caster. We're the only ones that get stat drains. We get to absorb buffs now. Wish it wasn't once every minute. The Abs should beable to last for a decent amount of time. Drain II and Dread Spikes shouldn't take so damn long to recast. Why can't a Drk have Drain III? Aspir III? a couple other Dark based Nukes that aren't stupid to cast for damage like Impact.
E. How to?: First. Don't Change Resolution more then you're going to as it's written. It sounds like it's going to be interesting. Entropy SHOULD have a strength mod. Not Int. All Drk ws besides elemental ones are STR/mnd or STR/int. Taking Strength out makes it weak. If you have to sacrifice the MP drain effect some thats fine. I think it should drain a consistent amount based on the damage dealt. Like 1mp for every 10pts of damage. If you make it 8hits. It also puts Drks in a place they used to be. We can't use any of the gear that gives us Boosted critical damage. Not for ws. That Trait only helps us if we /thf and use Gsword for Torcleaver. Give Drk some new spells that deal damage. Noir and Noir II are what i'll call them but whatever you want to give them. And a Drain III and Aspir III. As a Drk we have the best Dark Magic Skill in the game. And yet our Dark Magic is Subpar. Please Adjust the Recast times to Drain II and Dread Spikes, Aspir II and our abs. A fight that isn't a boss fight lasts for 45 seconds. I'd like to beable to abs strength and vit and not have to wait for the next mob to hit it. I'd also like to have have to recast on the next mob because my buff only lasts about 45 seconds even with capped skill.

I know I've said alot. I know it's also jumbled. When it comes down to it I've always looked at dark as having two sides. The SCythe side and the Gsword side. Don't make one obsolete. Make Dark Knights unique. Make them the power houses that they are. and a side note. Even with a 157dmg Apoc an 8Hit ws isn't going to be as devastating as some would think. Mods that make each hit totaled together comparible to Torcleaver say 5.5-5.75 As it is Resolution is comparible to Torcleaver against mobs that don't have huge amounts of Defense. It's really only fair that a Scythe should too.

[Rezeak]

Even with SE up Guillotine is not doing 3.8k normally.

Entropy is pretty useless, they should give it an attack boost.

In abyssea it will.

w/ 4k hp a 4 hit guillotine will have WS DMG + 2k Se DMG (2500 5 hit, 3000 6 hit)
u can get near 8k hp with the right atmas meaning you can get 5k-6k guillotines (if ya wanna be a total gimp when Souleater isn't up)

Tho saying all this w/e Guillotine does in abyssea Rampage beats it allowing the max 8 hit

[Taint2]

In abyssea it will.

w/ 4k hp a 4 hit guillotine will have WS DMG + 2k Se DMG (2500 5 hit, 3000 6 hit)
u can get near 8k hp with the right atmas meaning you can get 5k-6k guillotines (if ya wanna be a total gimp when Souleater isn't up)

Tho saying all this w/e Guillotine does in abyssea Rampage beats it allowing the max 8 hit



Lost me at Abyssea.....and even when I was dumb enough to bring my DRK to Abyssea it wasn't averaging 3.8k with perfect gear and atma.

[Saiken253]

Then I must have better gear than you or something =\ not trying to pick a fight, but i'm just defending my words and just wanting to say that I'm not lying.

Regardless of this, back on topic

Please make entropy stronger... It shouldn't be doing less than what I do with Guillotine. It's a lvl96(though probably won't attain until 99) weaponskill. It had better be stronger than just about every WS of it's type >:(

[Dart]

axe/ridill in abyssea obviously

[Taint2]

Then I must have better gear than you or something =\ not trying to pick a fight, but i'm just defending my words and just wanting to say that I'm not lying.

Regardless of this, back on topic

Please make entropy stronger... It shouldn't be doing less than what I do with Guillotine. It's a lvl96(though probably won't attain until 99) weaponskill. It had better be stronger than just about every WS of it's type >:(



You don't have better gear then me. You just like to exagerate and eyeball damage.

[Saiken253]

no i do have a parser ^^ Maybe i'm luckier than you as well in the melee dept. Regardless i'm done debating this it's pointless.

The point IS though that entropy needs to get stronger and many of the other merits WSs(because Tanaka is back and wants to break our knees haha!.... T-T). But with reading from other threads, they all got weaker... What a backwards company. I personally think it's pride on Tanaka's part that he wants the stuff that was purely his to be the best.

Yay pride! The inhibitor to sensibility and progress!

[Neisan_Quetz]

I can believe 3.8k average on fodder inside.




with SE up

[Soidisant]

To average 3.8k you'd need to be rolling with Griffon's Claw/Alpha + Omega/Apocalypse against mobs who took additional damage imo.

[Saiken253]

[QUOTE=Neisan_Quetz;243153]I can believe 3.8k average on fodder inside.




Yes on fodder or NM spawned adds(if i it is actually better to use my scythe instead of cala on an NM, which would be things that have stupid high phys def/resistance so Tscythe makes their def not a factor, which is rare indeed). It's not hard. but again, this is not the point of this thread.

[Saiken253]

No, VV/RR/apoc for the most part(cause atma selections suck for DRK in general). Sometimes I swap out either VV or apoc with GC depending on situations or if i want something different that gives very similar, if not, exact results.

[Rezeak]

Saiken just as a fyi you'd be LUCKY to average 3k with guillotine inside of abyssea

i'm not saying this as my DRK or based on what others have said i say this based on the maths.

w/ say a 400 Stat mod + twilight scythe w/ av 5 hit guillotine you will average (if attack is maxed) around 2.4k so there is no way you average 3.8k (without SE)
unless you know something about guillotine that the 100s of people tested it, didn't know.

Basically guillotine sux w/ it's 25% mod and non critness

[Dart]

To average 3.8k you'd need to be rolling with Griffon's Claw/Alpha + Omega/Apocalypse against mobs who took additional damage imo.

even then i'm not sure that you could "average" that high

[Zemarin]

Only thing I don't like about this WS is that it's Modded by INT, but I guess it gives ppl a reason to actually wear the AF3 now, Anywho's to inser the rest of my 2 cents, I'm not totally disappointed with it, Guillotine doesn't close many WS's and Guillotine don't Return MP and Guillotine doesn't get Stronger with More TP. SO Iguess I'll be happy with this WS.. Only thing Guillotine has over it is that the Mod is STR, but Um Idc Guillotine cant close darkness, I haven't used Guillotine Ever since I got the other 4 Hit wonder.

Also I would Have Rather Scythe get another One hit wonder WS, 4 hit animations are not only long and annoying, but if its like the other multihitters and mod only matters on First hit, there's really no point in equipping INT in the first place. Overal I'm Happy tho, no more Running out of MP *yay* oh ya and now Scythe can make Darkness by myself.

I'm fine with it.

[Saiken253]

that's fine that it can make Darkness and all. but if you have a TEAM MATE in this TEAM BASED game, you could easily make Darkness with Crossreaper(which will do more damage than Entropy). The second problem is, you really don't need all that MP back that Entropy gives you. DRK doesn't have any spells worth using~(because, as stated by others, casting spells seriously hurts your DPS). I hear, however, that SE might be giving us DRKs Darkness 1 and 2(Holy counterparts). Yet again, in this team based game and with all the refresh gear that you can get for drk, I still won't be running out of MP any time soon(as an elvaan). I might put 1 merit into it and be 4/5 of Shoha(because Shoha at 4/5 is still a godly WS) or another WS, just for the MP recovery in case the Darkness spells are any good(but knowing SE they're going to be absolute crap).

[Zemarin]

when you pt gonna wipe to an OP move stuns worth casting...
When ur missing alot Absorb ACC is worth casting...
Absorb TP is worth Casting even if you are at the haste cap, cause um it hinder TP moves from mobs, maybe not so good when low on HP but when mobs are storing TP to WS early fight its a pretty good idea.
If your dying Drain is worth casting, same with Drain 2...
If the mob is buffed Absorb Attri is worth casting..
I find alot of spells worth casting. Honestly if you worried about 'not' casting and your 'DPS' so much I don't even understand why you chose to play DRK in the first place... go play Warrior or Monk?

How can u honestly expect to have a job that does more/equal DPS then other Melee jobs and has the Ability to basically debuff/stun a mob indirectly.

I can agree it would be nicer if they lowered Dark Magic cast time for DRK and made a DRK MAGIC that actually does some DAMAGE rather then forcing us to use weak elemental magic. but other than that if you don't wanna cast on DRK go play Warrior plz.

[Taint2]

when you pt gonna wipe to an OP move stuns worth casting...
When ur missing alot Absorb ACC is worth casting...
Absorb TP is worth Casting even if you are at the haste cap, cause um it hinder TP moves from mobs, maybe not so good when low on HP but when mobs are storing TP to WS early fight its a pretty good idea.
If your dying Drain is worth casting, same with Drain 2...
If the mob is buffed Absorb Attri is worth casting..
I find alot of spells worth casting. Honestly if you worried about 'not' casting and your 'DPS' so much I don't even understand why you chose to play DRK in the first place... go play Warrior or Monk?

How can u honestly expect to have a job that does more/equal DPS then other Melee jobs and has the Ability to basically debuff/stun a mob indirectly.

I can agree it would be nicer if they lowered Dark Magic cast time for DRK and made a DRK MAGIC that actually does some DAMAGE rather then forcing us to use weak elemental magic. but other than that if you don't wanna cast on DRK go play Warrior plz.



Sure you can play DRK like that, or you can play it correctly. Its your 15bucks....

[Zemarin]

Then what makes it even MORE retarded about ppl QQING about DRK is that GREAT SWORD Actually brings DRK damage back up... so its not even QQing about the lack of DPS on DRK its drk's QQing cause they can't use SCYTHE to play like Warriors. So stupid.. whole drk thread is stupid.. if you hate drk so much just quit it.

Unlike Most DD's Drk's have options and utility... and if you don't wanna Cast on a Job that has MP... why would you even bother playing it? It's not hard to understand that Drk's augment their melee potential thru magic rather than Job abilities.

[Rohelius]

Then what makes it even MORE retarded about ppl QQING about DRK is that GREAT SWORD Actually brings DRK damage back up... so its not even QQing about the lack of DPS on DRK its drk's QQing cause they can't use SCYTHE to play like Warriors. So stupid.. whole drk thread is stupid.. if you hate drk so much just quit it.

Unlike Most DD's Drk's have options and utility... and if you don't wanna Cast on a Job that has MP... why would you even bother playing it? It's not hard to understand that Drk's augment their melee potential thru magic rather than Job abilities.

Oh I've been saying that for a while now.
Some of the people in here are so arrogant and think they know "the correct" way to play it then go cry about the job being broken in some aspects like the magical side and doing anything but "WS - Hit fast - WS".

Guess what, you can't say there is a correct way to play something that's broken that doesn't make sense.
You can say that the physical side of drk was much stronger then the magical side and so in true playerbase mentality the best way it was applyed was tru the haste zerg 2hr hit spam, and it was so good now they won't accept anything else unless it takes them back to that.

[Finuve]

Then what makes it even MORE retarded about ppl QQING about DRK is that GREAT SWORD Actually brings DRK damage back up... so its not even QQing about the lack of DPS on DRK its drk's QQing cause they can't use SCYTHE to play like Warriors. So stupid.. whole drk thread is stupid.. if you hate drk so much just quit it.

Unlike Most DD's Drk's have options and utility... and if you don't wanna Cast on a Job that has MP... why would you even bother playing it? It's not hard to understand that Drk's augment their melee potential thru magic rather than Job abilities.wait seriously, what spell does that? I've been trying to find it for years

[Zemarin]

Absorb STR ~Vit ~ Agi ~ INt - Endark -Absorb Attri can steal Beserk - Absorb Acc Dread Spikes Absorb TP maybe you should try checking ur spell list Or invest in buying these spells.

[Taint2]

Absorb STR ~Vit ~ Agi ~ INt - Endark -Absorb Attri can steal Beserk - Absorb Acc Dread Spikes Absorb TP maybe you should try checking ur spell list Or invest in buying these spells.


I can get 100tp in the time it takes to cast any of those spells and I promise you my 4 swings + WS do more damage then the result of any of them.

I'm all for casting, there was plenty of reason to cast spells at 75, now there is none.

[Taint2]

Oh I've been saying that for a while now.
Some of the people in here are so arrogant and think they know "the correct" way to play it then go cry about the job being broken in some aspects like the magical side and doing anything but "WS - Hit fast - WS".

Guess what, you can't say there is a correct way to play something that's broken that doesn't make sense.
You can say that the physical side of drk was much stronger then the magical side and so in true playerbase mentality the best way it was applyed was tru the haste zerg 2hr hit spam, and it was so good now they won't accept anything else unless it takes them back to that.


The correct way to play is one that accomplishes the most in the shortest amount of time. Nothing DRK cast besides stun and a prebuff endark does that.

If you were building an alliance and you could pick from one DRK that likes to cast debuffs and drain with mediocure damage, and one that full out DDs for good damage but doesn't bother to ever cast which would you pick?

I don't QQ about DRK, I'll step into any VW fight in a PDT set and tank that sucker while the average DRK melees in twilight for access to RR. The job works fine for me.

[Zemarin]

The correct way to play is one that accomplishes the most in the shortest amount of time. Nothing DRK cast besides stun and a prebuff endark does that.

If you were building an alliance and you could pick from one DRK that likes to cast debuffs and drain with mediocure damage, and one that full out DDs for good damage but doesn't bother to ever cast which would you pick?

I don't QQ about DRK, I'll step into any VW fight in a PDT set and tank that sucker while the average DRK melees in twilight for access to RR. The job works fine for me.

Aparrently not

According to the thread drks are useless... I guess i should get on monk thread and start QQin about monks not having a puppet to follow it around and cure it..

Or pups not having coounter stance.

[Rohelius]

If you were building an alliance and you could pick from one DRK that likes to cast debuffs and drain with mediocure damage, and one that full out DDs for good damage but doesn't bother to ever cast which would you pick?
I do not have a "He sucks" list.
I do not go around telling people how to play their jobs in-game, i do however relay strategies and tactics to make it clear to anyone when its okay to back off and cast and when to zerg.
I thought that was how this game worked team work and communication, not "lol u suck /kickmember"


/facepalm

If it takes a relic to make the job work there might be something wrong.

Judging by this you think DRK with no relic doesn't work, so that gives me some insight as to why you say DRK is broken but you are happy with what it can do for you. basically no relic = your doing it wrong so that hypothetical
scenario i just answered falls on def ears :/


I don't QQ about DRK, I'll step into any VW fight in a PDT set and tank that sucker while the average DRK melees in twilight for access to RR. The job works fine for me.
Your tanking in tanking gear that means your precious DPS goes out the window!? sacrilegious according to all the Xhit or gtfo threads.
I fully agree with the argument that DRK can do more then just xhit WS spam you apparently know this, but just because relic makes it better doesn't mean that no relic automatically makes it suck.

[Saiken253]

@zemarin: I cast many of the absorb spells(mostly TP for WS and semi-restricting the mob's moves, VIT to slightly increase dmg, STR for the not Torcleaver WS, Attri for the obvious, ACC and DEX for the obvious) but other than attri and TP, they aren't really worth much casting. I wish they made a bigger impact on the fight so that they would be more useful. and yes, a DRK that can't stun is a lousy DRK.

I chose DRK for the fact that it was a warrior that had magic. However, SE's implementation of this was terribly constructed. They need to take a look at DnD Player's Handbook II(3.5 Edition) and look up the class Duskblade. That is precisely how DRK should work(it is even very DRK itself! has a spell that sacrifices HP for more DMG/swing!)

I don't hate drk. It's my absolute favorite job. always has been. however, when +90% of it's spells are useless and it's DPS is outshone greatly by other DDs that it used to be very competitive with, it's very saddening for me. Especially with Tachi: Godmode(Shoha) that's making Masamune useless(has been tested by a LS mate with masa and says Kikugosaku with a 4hit build greatly out damages Masamune/Fudo[4k+ normals 7k+ highs at 100tp; yeah Tanaka is definitely showing which jobs he loves and hates right now]).

As for me, I have to have to either have 200tp or use SE to hit those #s on Resolution, which is not fair imo with the fact that SAM can just pop those out every few seconds and have no drawback. I digress though, because again Tanaka is back and he is gay for sam and a raging troll against SMN DRK and all those other neglected/rejected/abused jobs.

BALANCE!

[Chriscoffey]

I don't QQ about DRK, I'll step into any VW fight in a PDT set and tank that sucker while the average DRK melees in twilight for access to RR (because they don't have apocalypse). The job works fine for me.
Had to add something .

[Taint2]

I do not have a "He sucks" list.
I do not go around telling people how to play their jobs in-game, i do however relay strategies and tactics to make it clear to anyone when its okay to back off and cast and when to zerg.
I thought that was how this game worked team work and communication, not "lol u suck /kickmember"



Judging by this you think DRK with no relic doesn't work, so that gives me some insight as to why you say DRK is broken but you are happy with what it can do for you. basically no relic = your doing it wrong so that hypothetical
scenario i just answered falls on def ears :/


Your tanking in tanking gear that means your precious DPS goes out the window!? sacrilegious according to all the Xhit or gtfo threads.
I fully agree with the argument that DRK can do more then just xhit WS spam you apparently know this, but just because relic makes it better doesn't mean that no relic automatically makes it suck.


I do keep track of players that suck and those that dont, its important esp now with VW being the focus.

I never once mentioned you need an Apoc, it does help, but I tank just fine using Caladborg when GS is a proc. Keeping hate and proper support are what makes a DRK tank work.

Ofcourse I tank in tank gear. I also have a proper xhit and DD gear for when I'm trying to regain hate or when temps are up.

[Zemarin]

@zemarin: I cast many of the absorb spells(mostly TP for WS and semi-restricting the mob's moves, VIT to slightly increase dmg, STR for the not Torcleaver WS, Attri for the obvious, ACC and DEX for the obvious) but other than attri and TP, they aren't really worth much casting. I wish they made a bigger impact on the fight so that they would be more useful. and yes, a DRK that can't stun is a lousy DRK.

I chose DRK for the fact that it was a warrior that had magic. However, SE's implementation of this was terribly constructed. They need to take a look at DnD Player's Handbook II(3.5 Edition) and look up the class Duskblade. That is precisely how DRK should work(it is even very DRK itself! has a spell that sacrifices HP for more DMG/swing!)

I don't hate drk. It's my absolute favorite job. always has been. however, when +90% of it's spells are useless and it's DPS is outshone greatly by other DDs that it used to be very competitive with, it's very saddening for me. Especially with Tachi: Godmode(Shoha) that's making Masamune useless(has been tested by a LS mate with masa and says Kikugosaku with a 4hit build greatly out damages Masamune/Fudo[4k+ normals 7k+ highs at 100tp; yeah Tanaka is definitely showing which jobs he loves and hates right now]).

As for me, I have to have to either have 200tp or use SE to hit those #s on Resolution, which is not fair imo with the fact that SAM can just pop those out every few seconds and have no drawback. I digress though, because again Tanaka is back and he is gay for sam and a raging troll against SMN DRK and all those other neglected/rejected/abused jobs.

BALANCE!

Your problem is not understanding Each DPS excell and blow at different things. For you balance is DRK being able to kill everything in game like a WAr can on Trash mobs. Even tho 2handed weps was made to be better in the long run the same rule applies as it did back in the HNM days where some jobs are better at end game things awhile others are better at trash/gimmicky things. I find it hard to believe anything with a grain of Defense a monk/sam/drg can out damage a drk on. DRK isn't being Gipped, although some of the Job Abilities like Occult Accumen do benefit blms and sch more. For the most part anything beyond it has been good for drk.

I don't Agree with forcing DRKs to use elemental magic at all and don't understand why their enfeebling magics are so low... however I don't believe drk is horrible for not being TOP Dps seeing as a DRK can take alot of heat esp. with the right sub where as most dps get hammered.. also in situations where the mob has very high def/eva u cant really count on blus/mnks/dncs as reliable dmg/stuns.

Also if you can make the argument that Using En-Dark absorb acc or whatever can hurt ur DPS so can using berserk.. u gotta stop ur animation to use and JA as well as magic regardless. Magic spells help u when the situation deems it necessary and sometimes even when not.

Back on topic.. i still dont find anythign wrong with scythe and if u dont like it plz use a great sword.

[Taint2]

Your problem is not understanding Each DPS excell and blow at different things. For you balance is DRK being able to kill everything in game like a WAr can on Trash mobs. Even tho 2handed weps was made to be better in the long run the same rule applies as it did back in the HNM days where some jobs are better at end game things awhile others are better at trash/gimmicky things. I find it hard to believe anything with a grain of Defense a monk/sam/drg can out damage a drk on. DRK isn't being Gipped, although some of the Job Abilities like Occult Accumen do benefit blms and sch more. For the most part anything beyond it has been good for drk.

I don't Agree with forcing DRKs to use elemental magic at all and don't understand why their enfeebling magics are so low... however I don't believe drk is horrible for not being TOP Dps seeing as a DRK can take alot of heat esp. with the right sub where as most dps get hammered.. also in situations where the mob has very high def/eva u cant really count on blus/mnks/dncs as reliable dmg/stuns.

Also if you can make the argument that Using En-Dark absorb acc or whatever can hurt ur DPS so can using berserk.. u gotta stop ur animation to use and JA as well as magic regardless. Magic spells help u when the situation deems it necessary and sometimes even when not.

Back on topic.. i still dont find anythign wrong with scythe and if u dont like it plz use a great sword.


Zerk vs a spell?

SAM and MNK not good on high def mobs?

Troll attempt?

[Chriscoffey]

Zerk vs a spell?

SAM and MNK not good on high def mobs?

Troll attempt?
It's quite obvious anyone who comments "knowing" we are full of shit about dark are the very same people who don't play it enough comparatively speaking. There is absolutely no comparison from dark to most other melee jobs in just how much they lack for melee DPS/WS with buffs. This always ends up "low man groups" but never acknowledging the simple fact the haste is so easy to cap now. That was what made dark in it's own place in the melee department. The fact haste can be capped on so many jobs pretty much ended that.

[Saiken253]

Indeed. using a JA is much more instantaneous than casting a spell(except for stun, which is roughly the same).

Also, is it wrong to want to do similar damage on an advanced job that is supposed to be the better version of the base job that unlocks DRK? Yes I somewhat have more survivability on DRK than WAR but if you have good enough support(which is what this game is all about) you most likely won't die.

Despite what you think, Scythe desperately needs improvements on all/most of it's WSs. As it stands now, GS does everything scythe does but better(9k Resolutions[high end] says hi). This needs to be rectified, because scythe is my preferred weapon but as things are now a DRK will be viewed as gimp if they use their 1 and only A+ skill, which is their SIGNATURE weapon(in ffxi that is).

[Calamity]

Scythe may be an A+ skill, but I don't see how that makes it any more a signature weapon than it does GS. Drks have always been the best wielder of both weapons. I think the very idea of one weapon being superior to the other is a mistake. I mean really, the difference in skill between scythe and GS is what now, 7-8 points? That's negligible on anything. This is not an attack on scythe, this is an attack on the idea that scythe is any more deserving than GS as a drk's weapon of choice.

[StingRay104]

Indeed. using a JA is much more instantaneous than casting a spell(except for stun, which is roughly the same).

Also, is it wrong to want to do similar damage on an advanced job that is supposed to be the better version of the base job that unlocks DRK? Yes I somewhat have more survivability on DRK than WAR but if you have good enough support(which is what this game is all about) you most likely won't die.

Despite what you think, Scythe desperately needs improvements on all/most of it's WSs. As it stands now, GS does everything scythe does but better(9k Resolutions[high end] says hi). This needs to be rectified, because scythe is my preferred weapon but as things are now a DRK will be viewed as gimp if they use their 1 and only A+ skill, which is their SIGNATURE weapon(in ffxi that is).

Whats the first weapon every DRK gets, do you remember the quest? Its a GS. Thats right the quest to unlock the job starts you off with a GS, and that weapon can be upgraded through another quest. Its funny how many people (myself included) forget this, but that shouldn't be the complete point, after all how many jobs have main weapons in the A- range? The point is that GS and Scythe are DRK signature weapons, and thus increases in both fields are beneficial to the job. Now for years GS has been ignored when it came to a good souleater ws but now that has been corrected, now we just need a decent scythe ws, and personally I think Entropy is fine where its at because it offers great utility for casting spells, but people want raw damage. I have always thought Insurgency needed a buff and by making it crit then that would give scythe something, also Quietus needs a damage boost because it is still quite weak, however entropy seems right on the money, its slightly better than guillotine but gives mp (instead of drains which would be useless on no mp mobs).

[Concerned4FFxi]

Its just silly no matter how one looks at the picture that in order for any dark to compete with other dd classes in THEIR MAIN WEAPON CLASS, they need a relic weapon.

Empyrean is garbage, mythic (idk and boy are mythics alot of work).

In the case of a non-relic drk they need to use a GS and the new merit ws or again use another GS from the empyrean path. This is crazy, why are all scythe ws junk and it's the drk's main weapon? WAR gets a decent mythic, empyrean, relic, and now merited ws for their GA, plus they get access to the new merited GS ws. Really, why play drk without a merit? Its not like the job gets the same WS JA bonuses WAR gets, or even a decent WS for their main weapon. loldrk

If this is gonna be how it is, then give DRK A+ skill in GS and call it what it is, loldrk.

[Calamity]

Its just silly no matter how one looks at the picture that in order for any dark to compete with other dd classes in THEIR MAIN WEAPON CLASS, they need a relic weapon.

Empyrean is garbage, mythic (idk and boy are mythics alot of work).

In the case of a non-relic drk they need to use a GS and the new merit ws or again use another GS from the empyrean path. This is crazy, why are all scythe ws junk and it's the drk's main weapon? WAR gets a decent mythic, empyrean, relic, and now merited ws for their GA, plus they get access to the new merited GS ws. Really, why play drk without a merit? Its not like the job gets the same WS JA bonuses WAR gets, or even a decent WS for their main weapon. loldrk

If this is gonna be how it is, then give DRK A+ skill in GS and call it what it is, loldrk.

Say what you will. I use GS and my dark performs exceedingly well. Drk done right is not by any means "lol". This is more than likely your own personal experience with your own personal drk. And as mentioned before, the difference between A- and A+ skill is about 7 points. This isn't going to make any noticable difference on anything.

I also explained before the reason why GS gets better WS's than Scythe. Name any single other way in which GS is stronger than scythe. Base damage, not even close. Ease of TP build? No chance. This is that "balance" thing SE talks about so much. But why complain? Drk is a master of GS and scythe both. War's never been capable of making full use out of the GS and neither has pld. GS is a dark knight's territory. And I keep noting people raising hell that war can use the new GS ws. Guess what? They can use the new scythe ws also. So can bst. Why not raise holy hell about that too?

I always see drks bitching about SE never giving drks anything good, then suddenly they give us a new ws that's pretty awesome, and of total benefit to the drk, and now I see pages and pages of complaints that SE did give us something we can use, but we want something else. And as has been stated by a few people already, Entropy may not be as overwhelmingly powerful as people hoped, but it is an upgrade to guillotine. Nobody seems to be happy with that fact either.

I'm not against either weapon, I'm pro both. But that doesn't mean I demand both to be super powerful, just means I'll be happy with the strongest of either category. If tomorrow scythe suddenly shot out ahead, I'd prolly start using it. But for now I'm happy and content with GS as my weapon of choice.

[Dart]

Your problem is not understanding Each DPS excell and blow at different things. For you balance is DRK being able to kill everything in game like a WAr can on Trash mobs. Even tho 2handed weps was made to be better in the long run the same rule applies as it did back in the HNM days where some jobs are better at end game things awhile others are better at trash/gimmicky things. I find it hard to believe anything with a grain of Defense a monk/sam/drg can out damage a drk on. DRK isn't being Gipped, although some of the Job Abilities like Occult Accumen do benefit blms and sch more. For the most part anything beyond it has been good for drk.

I don't Agree with forcing DRKs to use elemental magic at all and don't understand why their enfeebling magics are so low... however I don't believe drk is horrible for not being TOP Dps seeing as a DRK can take alot of heat esp. with the right sub where as most dps get hammered.. also in situations where the mob has very high def/eva u cant really count on blus/mnks/dncs as reliable dmg/stuns.

Also if you can make the argument that Using En-Dark absorb acc or whatever can hurt ur DPS so can using berserk.. u gotta stop ur animation to use and JA as well as magic regardless. Magic spells help u when the situation deems it necessary and sometimes even when not.

Back on topic.. i still dont find anythign wrong with scythe and if u dont like it plz use a great sword.

you can't be serious, it literally has to be impossible to be this blind.

[Saiken253]

@Stingray104

I agree with you on the point that neither GS nor scythe should be stronger than the other. I wan them to both be equivalent in damage and utility. before, GS and scythe were the utility weapons(with different effects) with sleep and paralysis being on GS and Scythe has blind and silence. Why force scythe to then be super utility and then GS be super damage? why not they be equal?

I know what people will say, them being equal is stupid, but please stop being ignorant. Them being equal would allow DRKs to play exactly the way they want to play and not be laughed at for not using GS(now) or Scythe(then). I want to be able to use either and have that kind of variety in my favorite melee job.

Making either GS or Scythe superior to the other is just unfair to us DRKs.

[Calamity]

@Stingray104

I agree with you on the point that neither GS nor scythe should be stronger than the other. I wan them to both be equivalent in damage and utility. before, GS and scythe were the utility weapons(with different effects) with sleep and paralysis being on GS and Scythe has blind and silence. Why force scythe to then be super utility and then GS be super damage? why not they be equal?

I know what people will say, them being equal is stupid, but please stop being ignorant. Them being equal would allow DRKs to play exactly the way they want to play and not be laughed at for not using GS(now) or Scythe(then). I want to be able to use either and have that kind of variety in my favorite melee job.

Making either GS or Scythe superior to the other is just unfair to us DRKs.

But how would you do this? It's not as simple as just matching their WS potential. Making scythe WS's = to GS would only serve to kill GS. If both had equally strong ws's, the GS supporters would instead be ridiculed for using a low damage weapon with a worse xhit instead of a 4-5 hit high damage scythe. The only way I can see to make the two weapons perfectly equal is to have them be exact mirror images of each other in damage, delay and WS damage, and at that point, why even bother having multiple weapon choices?

[Saiken253]

just make the scythe WSs a little weaker then GS then i suppose. as it is right now, scythe WSs are much weaker than GS.

[Concerned4FFxi]

Scythe may be an A+ skill, but I don't see how that makes it any more a signature weapon than it does GS. Drks have always been the best wielder of both weapons. I think the very idea of one weapon being superior to the other is a mistake. I mean really, the difference in skill between scythe and GS is what now, 7-8 points? That's negligible on anything. This is not an attack on scythe, this is an attack on the idea that scythe is any more deserving than GS as a drk's weapon of choice.

This isn't personal what I'm about to say, but I'd like to just point out something using your quote. I want everyone to consider that when DRK (you too SE please) is given a job specific weapon ONLY, i.e. twilight sycthe, the one from megamaw mikey, all the 70+ ones; the weapon that is for DRK only is Scythe. Our relic and empyrean only are this, so that's just a point I'm making. Besides Blm, there is no other job which has that job only scythe to my knowledge. So, because there's so many scythe for drk only, that must mean that's a drk's main weapon. Sure, if a blu wants to he can use a club, so can a pld. But you get what I'm saying don't you.

Why does the Scythe WS suck so bad, give DRK A+ GS skill, because without a relic Scythe, there's really no point to use a scythe because all it's WS suck. I tried to use my twilight one, but really you should have made it "Twilight Great Sword", Drk only.

[Calamity]

You do raise good points, though I don't think any of mine are really diminished. GS is the only weapon type in the entire game that started out without a job to master it. I'd say that has changed. And I do have to say I think it's an exageration about how much Entropy sucks. It's not as strong as a GS ws, but with the right gear setup, it's really not that bad. Inside abyssea it's actually damn good. I average 4-5k on trash mobs with it and about 3k on higher level stuff. Whether or not it's what people hoped for, it is an upgrade to what we had. You have to give SE at least that much

[StingRay104]

@Stingray104

I agree with you on the point that neither GS nor scythe should be stronger than the other. I wan them to both be equivalent in damage and utility. before, GS and scythe were the utility weapons(with different effects) with sleep and paralysis being on GS and Scythe has blind and silence. Why force scythe to then be super utility and then GS be super damage? why not they be equal?

I know what people will say, them being equal is stupid, but please stop being ignorant. Them being equal would allow DRKs to play exactly the way they want to play and not be laughed at for not using GS(now) or Scythe(then). I want to be able to use either and have that kind of variety in my favorite melee job.

Making either GS or Scythe superior to the other is just unfair to us DRKs.

The biggest problem with people saying that they want scythe and GS damage to be equal is that they mean equal, as in the same exact damage. Scythe and GS have always had to be different in damage because of balance issues, GS needs the high damage ws's because its lower delay means it takes longer to build tp, whereas scythe has higher delay and base damage meaning its ws's should be a little weaker to make up for the higher tp gain and higher base damage.

As for utility, enfeebling effects on ws's are forgotten effects, seriously does guillotine cause silence, who knows, really at best you get it to interupt spells like gekko does, point is ws effects are by and large pointless with 2 exceptions, HP drain and MP gain. The relic ws catastrophe and entropy are very useful ws's and provide much for DRKs with them, and thus considering that Entropy is in fact stronger than guillotine and has the nice added bonus of mp gain it seems like a no brainer to me. However I also understand that scythe still lacks in the damage area and has fallen behind against GS and I would agree that certain ws's like Insurgency and Quietus need strong damage buffs (crit for Insurgency and higher tp mod for Quietus) but I think Entropy is just fine where it is. Torcleaver had a vit build on it and that was difficult til 90 when they introduced better gear with vit for DRK to build on with for strong ws sets, but I have always noticed good int gear on DRK.

As I agree making either stronger is not the way to seek BALANCE, yet I can't agree with entropy getting the desired boost you want because at this point it is a very great and useful ws.


PS: I just got done celebrating the downfall of the super broken Ukko;s Fury and can't wait to see DRK get back in the game of being a great DD.

[Hextitan]

PS: I just got done celebrating the downfall of the super broken Ukko;s Fury and can't wait to see DRK get back in the game of being a great DD.

This mind state is moronic. Nerfing another job does nothing for DRK. I don't think you grasp how weak our WSs are compared to Ukko's Fury. They'd have to nerf the WS to oblivion for any of our WS to come close to it....and even then it's still STR based with a chance to crit.

The fact that DRKs are so hard up that they'd actually cheer another job getting nerfed speaks volumes on how bad the job currently is.

[Chriscoffey]

This mind state is moronic. Nerfing another job does nothing for DRK. I don't think you grasp how weak our WSs are compared to Ukko's Fury. They'd have to nerf the WS to oblivion for any of our WS to come close to it....and even then it's still STR based with a chance to crit.

The fact that DRKs are so hard up that they'd actually cheer another job getting nerfed speaks volumes on how bad the job currently is.
It has been like that for years but it seems every other job made light of the simple fact SE trolled us with bullshit ja/spells/etc that are useless in most cases. This was all fine with everyone that we were the "emo" crowd till a "slight" nerf to warrior and you would think the fucking walls are falling in on everyone. Go find yourself some razor blades now because this nerfing jobs (except sam) won't be over anytime soon.

[Taint2]

PS: I just got done celebrating the downfall of the super broken Ukko;s Fury and can't wait to see DRK get back in the game of being a great DD.


Nerfing isn't good for anyone. Ask anyone that had Apoc pre2007 or did a RNGburn or was a RDMtank etc. UF WARs helped me as a DRK, killing stuff faster is good for everyone.

[Sayomi]

Make anything DRK related stronger. Would be a start.

[Chriscoffey]

Nerfing isn't good for anyone. Ask anyone that had Apoc pre2008 or did a RNGburn or was a RDMtank etc. UF WARs helped me as a DRK, killing stuff faster is good for everyone.
It's march 08 sir.. had your date wrong there...

[StingRay104]

As I've stated so many times on these forums it should be well known my stance on the issue, I would welcome the concept of bringing everyone up to wars power as dd, however no ws should be able to hit the 10k mark unless a brew is used. Ukko's Fury was broken from the start and needed to be fixed, and I'm glad SE is finally handling this issue. With UF being as broken as it was it basically turned war into sam after the 2handed/ygk nerf, get Hagun or play another job, except now its Ukonvasara. With the impending nerf to UF coming war can lose those restrictions and become a better all around dd instead of king of the hill everyone must have 1 weapon job. Besides if anyone remembers what eventually happened after ygk nerf after every other job got buffed to sams level it was removed, in fact ygk are stronger than they originally were.

I also find it funny the hot topic in the make Entropy stronger thread is my comments on UF nerf, strange world isn't it. However my response to the nerf is my opinion on the matter if you share it or don't share thats your opinion however this nerf can mark the beginning of the fix I have been waiting for, the bring war down a little and then bring everyone else up to that level fix that SE promised us so many updates ago.

[Spiritreaver]

I've following the development/release of the 96+ merit WSs as best as i can and have already made my choices as to which i've unlocked/plan to unlock.

I have been wondering and now want to ask anyone who has unlocked Entropy: Does Entropy receive the same treatment from the elemental gorgets/belts that say the WSs Blade: Shun or Stardiver have gotten? And if so, does this make the it not so much of a joke?

I mean as much as it is possible to make a WS based on INT not a joke when its supposed to be used by a heavy DD job.

Just been wondering. I've be using the ele gorgets/belts to good effect on my chosen WSs and was curious of their application on Entropy.

Thanks in advance for any replies.

[Calamity]

Belt/gorget do work the same on this ws as with others as far as I can tell. And I do feel "joke" is a little harsh. It is stronger that Guillotine is *if* you are willing to gear it right. I treat it just about the same as Torcleaver, capped attk, which in this day and age, no drk has an excuse to not be able to do. I throw a bit of acc in since it is a multi hit, then hurl as much int as I can in the remaining slots. I seriously think the WS does alright. It's great inside abyssea, and even outside I hit around 2kish on T/VT mobs, and my WS build has lots of room for improvement

[Taint2]

I'm still 3/5 but I'm getting solid results in VW with this set. 5/5 should easily beat Guillotine.

Entropy set (http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/241836)

[Spiritreaver]

Thanks for the update there guys.

[Hextitan]

It has been like that for years but it seems every other job made light of the simple fact SE trolled us with bullshit ja/spells/etc that are useless in most cases. This was all fine with everyone that we were the "emo" crowd till a "slight" nerf to warrior and you would think the fucking walls are falling in on everyone. Go find yourself some razor blades now because this nerfing jobs (except sam) won't be over anytime soon.

I'm a career DRK. Been playing since day 1 when the game came out in the U.S. I think it's pathetic that some of you are so disenchanted with the game, and DRK specifically, that you'd actually cheer another job getting nerfed. And then try to rationalize it by saying "well, DRK got sh*tted on for years and no one cared!"....do you have any idea how petty and childish you sound?

[Chriscoffey]

I'm a career DRK. Been playing since day 1 when the game came out in the U.S. I think it's pathetic that some of you are so disenchanted with the game, and DRK specifically, that you'd actually cheer another job getting nerfed. And then try to rationalize it by saying "well, DRK got sh*tted on for years and no one cared!"....do you have any idea how petty and childish you sound?
I just made a simple fact statement which you seem to be the one going off on me about how petty I am. Do you know how stupid you are to bring up something so stupid as this little "slight" nerf to warrior? Get over it and move on. I haven't danced around saying OMG HOW GREAT THIS IS WARRIOR GETS A NERF. It would be you petty warriors who can't epeen it out which is way more petty than me stating a fact of the game about dark and their shit handed to them over the years. You saying you're a career dark doesn't give you some greater understanding about dark when talking about what SE are doing now to war/mnk. Facts are facts.

Here is a fact: I could care less if FFXI ended today, tomorrow or next week but that is a FACT sir, not being petty, much like how you people keep bringing up this adjustment by SE and how it's wrong.

[Hextitan]

I'm still 3/5 but I'm getting solid results in VW with this set. 5/5 should easily beat Guillotine.

Entropy set (http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/241836)

Hmmm....I'm curious. How are the numbers decent with so little INT?

[Dart]

have to try and cap str/attack first before you worry about secondary stuffs. Stalwarts helps with attack, but still need major str+ to get even remotely close to capping it in top tier VW mobs.

[Taint2]

have to try and cap str/attack first before you worry about secondary stuffs. Stalwarts helps with attack, but still need major str+ to get even remotely close to capping it in top tier VW mobs.

^
This, with a rank25 weapon fSTR is always a concern.

[Raelia]

Chasing an effective 25% Mod for fSTR instead of stacking for a 100% INT mod...

Derp much?

[Chriscoffey]

Chasing an effective 25% Mod for fSTR instead of stacking for a 100% INT mod...

Derp much?
If you actually took time to look at Taints set you would see its a balanced type thing where he gains more on fSTR/attack with a combo of INT. I am all for the discussion of different sets with results but most will not do that.

[Thanotos]

if your argument that entropy is stronger than guillotine, and to stop crying cause we got something stronger, maybe your dumbass should remember that guillotine is a level 60 ws, and that every ws in theory should have been slightly stronger, esp the ones that required a quest, and that the dmg of a level 99 ws is comparable to a level 60 ws, or maybe you just like to throw logic out the fucking window, as SE does everyday when they come to work. in my opinion, drk are no better than when they were level 75, (the last resort buff doesnt even count, the 30 second duration was flawed to begin with), we have not benefited from the level increase in anyway besides getting a stupid easy to get empy weapon GS, that is the only thing that keeps drk competitive and then just barely, and its not just drk, all jobs suffer from the dumb logic that as they gain more levels, the ws have been, for the most part, become weaker, I assume this is SE logic of keeping balance, or maybe they are extremely bad at math and dont know that 2>1, doesnt take rocket science to determine the power of a ws should be at higher levels, they even opened a test server so they wouldnt have to test it themselves. Yet they still disrespect every ffxi player's feedback in these forums, and continue to distribute total shit for updates. Bitch fest done. That is all. Hail SE Nazi Regime!

[Taint2]

Chasing an effective 25% Mod for fSTR instead of stacking for a 100% INT mod...

Derp much?



What would you change in my set? Maybe a +7INT ring?

[ShadedOnyx]

Taint. The only thing I would suggest about your set is using Empyrean +2 legs over the armada legs.

[Saiken253]

@taint

Yes Bale+2 legs would be much better than adaman/armada breeches(they're kinda worthless imo). I would also have the Abyssal earring for 1 slot and Bale for the other, however brutal is good for a not 8-hit multi-hit WS(which is what this WS should have been), so I suggest Abyssal/Brutal as a secondary earring set option.

I haven't been able to exp enough to get full entropy(did Shoha and Resolution first), but with 1/5 i have been able to do 2k Entropy's frequently. My WS set isn't much different from yours, with the exceptions being the 2 earrings, legs, strap(I use Pole or Uther's) and weapon(which I'm nearing completion on ;D)

[Taint2]

Did you guys click my link? Those Armada Legs have +10str and +3int on them and are better then Bale+2 most of the time. (high lvl mob without stal/LR bale pull slightly ahead)

TPbonus Moonshade/brutal >>> abyssal/brutal > bale/brutal for Entropy. Bale+Abyssal is a terrible idea.

[Saiken253]

the augments didn't show up on the legs, sorry about that; but 10str and 7acc 7atk>12str 15acc 15atk? though, the +3 int in tandem with the str is somewhat nice for your augments to the WS, but as you said, against high def mods bale is definitely better. Bale+abyssal isn't bad tbh; and the TPbonus from the earring is almost negligible on Entropy(+25tp on a WS of which it's fTP increases by very small amounts with TP isn't worth much). Yes the 5% DA from brutal is nice, which is why I said abyssal/bale is only an option(for simply being there). So allow me to clarify this:

Outside Abyssea- Abyssal/Brutal
Inside Abyssea- Abyssal/Bale

[Taint2]

the augments didn't show up on the legs, sorry about that; but 10str and 7acc 7atk>12str 15acc 15atk? though, the +3 int in tandem with the str is somewhat nice for your augments to the WS, but as you said, against high def mods bale is definitely better. Bale+abyssal isn't bad tbh; and the TPbonus from the earring is almost negligible on Entropy(+25tp on a WS of which it's fTP increases by very small amounts with TP isn't worth much). Yes the 5% DA from brutal is nice, which is why I said abyssal/bale is only an option(for simply being there). So allow me to clarify this:

Outside Abyssea- Abyssal/Brutal
Inside Abyssea- Abyssal/Bale



What? You are wrong lol. Are you just making that up?

TPbonus wrecks Abyssal and Bale, its not even a contest or worth debating. And Abyssal/Bale is NEVER the best combo in any area or zone in the game.

Also on the bale/armada its only on a highlvl mob with LR/Stal down.....thats like 5% time in game right now, if not less. Even on tier6 VW mobs I'll have LR/Stal up almost the entire fight making my armada better.

[Saiken253]

If you look at the terrible ftp progression on entropy you might agree with me ^^ and brutal becomes inconsequential in Abyssea(with the rediculous amounts of DA that you get) which means 5% isn't all that great(where again the %s are rediculous); the number crunchers in my ls figured these out ^^ but i'm not going to go out of my way for those pants when i got jet seraweels with +5str augment hehe so those might be better(simply for the 100% int mod), but i'm still testing because they don't have any attack and acc, so that option is still iffy(but has potential).

[Returner]

You gain about 0.03/0.95 from moonshade, not to mention the +4 attack. So that's more than 3% of the damage which Abyssal earring will never match.

[Taint2]

If you look at the terrible ftp progression on entropy you might agree with me ^^ and brutal becomes inconsequential in Abyssea(with the rediculous amounts of DA that you get) which means 5% isn't all that great(where again the %s are rediculous); the number crunchers in my ls figured these out ^^ but i'm not going to go out of my way for those pants when i got jet seraweels with +5str augment hehe so those might be better(simply for the 100% int mod), but i'm still testing because they don't have any attack and acc, so that option is still iffy(but has potential).



/facepalm

Abyssea is dead and still Moonshade/Brutal will out perform Abyssal or Bale. There is no mob/zone/set up that will make abyssal/bale or any combo better then Moonshade/Brutal. Your number crunchers have no idea what they are talking about.


Here are your numbers for you:

Outside: High Level Mob:
Bale/Abyssal - 1821
Moonshade/Abyssal - 1828
Moonshade/Bale - 1835
Moonshade/Brutal - 1851

Outside: Low level Mob:
Bale/Abyssal - 2202
Moonshade/Abyssal - 2229
Moonshade/Bale - 2220
Moonshade/Brutal - 2270

In Abyssea: High level Mob: Apoc/A+O/RR
Bale/Abyssal - 3239
Moonshade/Abyssal - 3259
Moonshade/Bale - 3258
Moonshade/Brutal - 3268

I can run the math on any setup you want, but the results will be the same. Moonshade/Brutal is the best combo.

[Kury]

make entropy better by giving us a souleater for MP! Consume mp to increase attack!

[saevel]

If they would just change the WSC from ... lol INT to STR, it would at least be a decent WS. Seriously ... INT ....

[Dart]

once I finish apoc to 99 I have this sinking feeling that I'll never use entropy again -_-

[Taint2]

once I finish apoc to 99 I have this sinking feeling that I'll never use entropy again -_-


You won't.