+4 Trail Weapons/Miniempyrean? Kinda No Thanks!

[Eri]

So Datamines of the Test Servers Show +4 Weapons... Includeing Miniempyrean...

I mean i'm not trying to be mean or anything but whatever the Trails may be but they are still a lot of work to make, there are new Weapons Model ( some of the 89 JSE Weapons )

In case of Miniempyrean they are not getting Aftermaths or Afterglows(to be added) fine but ...

(Actually NOT fine. If these Weapons are there give em what they deserve. to be better then anything thats a Drop. Census said WoE were Empyrean too...)

Please SE add New Names and Weapon Models to these

Give Players something they can Idle with that shows: 'I did all the silly Trails'

Whats you Opinion on this?
This stuff looks the same for X-Number of Trails ..... Its a Pain >_>

[Camiie]

What I would like to see at the end is an optional set of trials that when completed allow us to choose a different model for our weapon.

Say I made one of the Parazonium+4 (dagger that shares a model with Thief's Knife). No matter which version I made, I would then have a set of trials to choose from each representing a different dagger model. When the trial I select is completed my dagger would change, in appearance only, to the different model. Obviously not every dagger model would be included. I wouldn't be able to make my dagger look like a Twashtar or a Terpsichore. I might be able to make it look like a jambiya or a merc. kris though.

[Arcon]

It's trial.

[Finuve]

It's trial.

great contribution!!

I dont care if they have new models for these weapons, but FFS use the better models at least, scythe is using the stupid small scythe model instead of death scythe style for one example

[Greatguardian]

.dat swap 0123456789

[Finuve]

.dat swap 0123456789I think I mentioned two posts up that your posts provide no contribution but if you missed that let me repeat, GREAT CONTRIBUTION!

.dat swap is not a solution, I don't want to make EVERY scythe look better at the same time

[Greatguardian]

Are you confusing me with someone else? We're not even the same character model.

Secondly, you want public epeen eye-candy in town on your casual-tier fake weapon? Pass. Having a full Empyrean is hardly a big deal, why should the rest of Jeuno care about your WoE weapon?

If you don't like the look of the scythe, change it. If you're just looking for more people to Oooh and Aaah at you (like the OP suggests), get out.

[FrankReynolds]

I like the Dagger Model. I would actually prefer if they changed the look of some of the Real weapons. Twashtar is Ugly as hell, and I'm kinda on the fence about vara.

[Finuve]

Are you confusing me with someone else? We're not even the same character model.

Secondly, you want public epeen eye-candy in town on your casual-tier fake weapon? Pass. Having a full Empyrean is hardly a big deal, why should the rest of Jeuno care about your WoE weapon?

If you don't like the look of the scythe, change it. If you're just looking for more people to Oooh and Aaah at you (like the OP suggests), get out.
oh right my mistake, it was another thread where I didnt respond to you that you said something useless

but either way you have continued that trend here

if you really think its about ooohs and aaaahs then ur an idiot, its about progression, at 75 we progressed from crappy bronze swords through until ridill's and death scythes at 75 (demonslicer excluded) whereas other than relics/empys most people are stuck rocking weapons that looked like the shit we swung at 50

[Greatguardian]

Okay, so .dat swap it.

Edit: And the OP herself very clearly made it about public perception and "oohs" and "aaahs", don't look at me.

[svengalis]

Are you confusing me with someone else? We're not even the same character model.

Secondly, you want public epeen eye-candy in town on your casual-tier fake weapon? Pass. Having a full Empyrean is hardly a big deal, why should the rest of Jeuno care about your WoE weapon?

If you don't like the look of the scythe, change it. If you're just looking for more people to Oooh and Aaah at you (like the OP suggests), get out.

Maybe HE does not like the way the dagger looks. Who are you to say we can or cannot have more options in design when choosing our daggers no matter if it's empyrean or woe? We all pay our own money for our accounts I think that gives everyone the right to come here and ask for addition enhancements if that makes the game more enjoyable to us.

[Greatguardian]

So bloody dat mod it.

[Finuve]

so then the weapons from the 50s also look like the better models, also killing that progression

[Greatguardian]

Who cares what the weapons from the 50's look like? How many people are actually going to be wearing those with 99% of the game population is level 95? Are you going to be wearing a level 50 weapon and get it confused with your WoE? Or do you really care that much what other people's weapons look like?

[FrankReynolds]

Who cares what the weapons from the 50's look like? How many people are actually going to be wearing those with 99% of the game population is level 95? Are you going to be wearing a level 50 weapon and get it confused with your WoE? Or do you really care that much what other people's weapons look like?

Good point. I don't think I've actually seen anyone on a level 50 job in a while. Most people don't stay that level very long. Getting xp isn't that hard now.

[Eri]

Are you confusing me with someone else? We're not even the same character model.

Secondly, you want public epeen eye-candy in town on your casual-tier fake weapon? Pass. Having a full Empyrean is hardly a big deal, why should the rest of Jeuno care about your WoE weapon?

If you don't like the look of the scythe, change it. If you're just looking for more people to Oooh and Aaah at you (like the OP suggests), get out.

Bolded something here^^ As funny as it may sound any Player that done WoE a long time desreves respect. Empy Owners too at 95. All that Abyssea stuff is nice an all but while you can duo that for the most part ... i prefere a player who knows what he or she can acomplish without pushing others for their benefits. Therefor every other weapon but an empy before 95 has earned my respect and should at least look like something you worked for. Its not only Miniempy that look godawful its also Elemental Trail and such. And all these deserve better looks.

[SpankWustler]

Trail weapons are similar to trail mix.

While austere and very brown-looking, trail mix is easy to pack and can be a good source of a protein, carbohydrates, and even fiber if made properly.

Trail weapons look simple because making new models for weapons takes time, but they are excellent weapons if you make a useful one.

If you want a pretty-looking snack, grab some food-grade lye and bake some soft pretzels. You can even bend them into funny shapes! If you want a pretty-looking weapon, the Empyrean trials are not much harder than the Empyrean -1 trials. You can even Occasionally Deal Double Damage after you weaponskill!

[xbobx]

I would like to see the woe weapons get a type of aftermath that isnt near as strong as emp, and the last of the trials get the ws. So h2h get victory smite.

People still worked at it, but make it so the three are scaled properly.

[Morier]

Trail of the magians. Long winding dusty trail it is.

[Greatguardian]

Bolded something here^^ As funny as it may sound any Player that done WoE a long time desreves respect. Empy Owners too at 95. All that Abyssea stuff is nice an all but while you can duo that for the most part ... i prefere a player who knows what he or she can acomplish without pushing others for their benefits. Therefor every other weapon but an empy before 95 has earned my respect and should at least look like something you worked for. Its not only Miniempy that look godawful its also Elemental Trail and such. And all these deserve better looks.

No. No one deserves respect based solely on their pixelated shinies. Respect is earned.

And they call me elitist.

[Meyi]

I don't like how the Magian Staves look either, but eh, it could be worse. They could still be Ash Staves... or Crooks.

I would like to see our weapons achieve new names. Blue bordered weapons looked pretty bad ass and matched our AF3+2, but now the orange boxes seem to bring the equipment box to a funk, and the +4 box will just seem... out of place. As a level 99 weapon, I think they should have unique names.

They should have unique names especially if Square Enix decides to leave the other magian weapons unmeshable. For example, a Magic Damage+ staff should have a name unlike the same element's Perpept- staff.

[Vold]

Bolded something here^^ As funny as it may sound any Player that done WoE a long time desreves respect. Empy Owners too at 95. All that Abyssea stuff is nice an all but while you can duo that for the most part ... i prefere a player who knows what he or she can acomplish without pushing others for their benefits. Therefor every other weapon but an empy before 95 has earned my respect and should at least look like something you worked for. Its not only Miniempy that look godawful its also Elemental Trail and such. And all these deserve better looks.
But you're suggesting WoE weapons get aftermaths which is the only reason you do the Empyrean instead of the WoE weapon. Well, unless you count the fact that it's probably EASIER to do an Empyrean than a WoE for people who can manage Empyrean farming. But I stress I give credit where it's due. You didn't directly suggest they get aftermaths but come on, you basically were.

[Karbuncle]

I'm just going to useless echo the ".dat swap" argument.

Ugly Weapons are always there, You can turn your dagger into Farsha if you wanted. Wont even mess up Weaponskill Animations.

[Meyi]

No. No one deserves respect based solely on their pixelated shinies. Respect is earned.

And they call me elitist.

Everyone should be given respect because they are a person. Appraisal and admiration are what should be earned.

[Greatguardian]

Everyone should be given respect because they are a person. Appraisal and admiration are what should be earned.

Pffft. You know what I mean. Earning respect greater than or different from the baseline applied to your fellow man is something that should be earned rather than bestowed due to the shininess of one's pixels.

[Kincard]

But you're suggesting WoE weapons get aftermaths which is the only reason you do the Empyrean instead of the WoE weapon. Well, unless you count the fact that it's probably EASIER to do an Empyrean than a WoE for people who can manage Empyrean farming. But I stress I give credit where it's due. You didn't directly suggest they get aftermaths but come on, you basically were.

Wait, wha? The guy you quoted seemed to only be talking about skins and not aftermaths. Making those on the WoE weapons would be pretty dumb though, yeah.

I don't get this knee-jerk reaction some of you guys have to making the WoE weapons have unique skins at +4. I'd love for a lot more weapons in the game to get unique skins. Call me shallow if you want, but it's a game, heh. Showing off shinies is fun for some people. You guys just keep making me picture that image of a robot hammering the "NO FUN" sign onto a yard.

[Creelo]

You can dat swap all you want, but deep down... you will always know that your Kila +4 will still look like a Bone Knife :P

Or your Goliard Trews will actually look like... Goliard Trews. X.x

[Hyrist]

And they call me elitist.

You may want to review what you're saying then. Calling the Empy-WS weapons 'fake', and using the term 'casual' as a negative, defiantly send that message to others.

Respect is something earned by people's behavior. Some people can be godawful players yet still have a lot of respect among their peers because they're mature and helpful. Gear has nothing to do with it, skill has little to do with it.

But expecting gear and skill over behavior are the signs of an elitist. And conducting yourself in a behavior that puts those things above others is an elitist trait. Something that should not be respected.

Having new models for the completed Magian weapons would just be an added incentive; a nice thing to have beyond a colored box that says every time you look at it 'good job, you got it done.' And yes, that should be distinctive from the items in progress. Especially for butt-ugly weapons like Khanda.

Honestly, it's my opinion that this could be done for every Magian weapon, including Relics/Empys/Mythics. And can be as simple as a new skin.

Now granted, that's a LOT of files for a simple upgrade. And I can understand if they don't want to do that. But I can also understand the desire.

There's no need to insult the suggestion.

[FrankReynolds]

I honestly don't care one way or the other about the Skin on the weapon. Could one of you bored people come help me farm my next empyrian instead of arguing over this? :P

[Reiterpallasch]

Bolded something here^^ As funny as it may sound any Player that done WoE a long time desreves respect. Empy Owners too at 95. All that Abyssea stuff is nice an all but while you can duo that for the most part ... i prefere a player who knows what he or she can acomplish without pushing others for their benefits. Therefor every other weapon but an empy before 95 has earned my respect and should at least look like something you worked for. Its not only Miniempy that look godawful its also Elemental Trail and such. And all these deserve better looks.
I bolded something too: bullshit. Somebody who sat in WoE flinging an endless supply of garudas at something does not deserve anything more than a pat on the back that says "well, at least you kinda tried".

And what they can accomplish without pushing others? Really? I wasn't aware that real (read: not fake) empyrean weapons were something you had to use others to get, to no benefit to them. As it turns out, most lowman groups will make them for everyone in their group.

Edit: .dat swap

[Divinius]

So.. What color is the +4 box?

[FrankReynolds]

I bolded something too: bullshit. Somebody who sat in WoE flinging an endless supply of garudas at something does not deserve anything more than a pat on the back that says "well, at least you kinda tried".


Lol, that's assuming they even did that. Usually about half the people are DDs who just stand near the boss, take a bunch of damage from AOE, die, RR and repeat. No effort at all other than showing up. You can get 5-6k xp and some junk without attacking the mob more than once.

[Greatguardian]

You may want to review what you're saying then. Calling the Empy-WS weapons 'fake', and using the term 'casual' as a negative, defiantly send that message to others.

Respect is something earned by people's behavior. Some people can be godawful players yet still have a lot of respect among their peers because they're mature and helpful. Gear has nothing to do with it, skill has little to do with it.

But expecting gear and skill over behavior are the signs of an elitist. And conducting yourself in a behavior that puts those things above others is an elitist trait. Something that should not be respected.

Having new models for the completed Magian weapons would just be an added incentive; a nice thing to have beyond a colored box that says every time you look at it 'good job, you got it done.' And yes, that should be distinctive from the items in progress. Especially for butt-ugly weapons like Khanda.

Honestly, it's my opinion that this could be done for every Magian weapon, including Relics/Empys/Mythics. And can be as simple as a new skin.

Now granted, that's a LOT of files for a simple upgrade. And I can understand if they don't want to do that. But I can also understand the desire.

There's no need to insult the suggestion.

You should really read the entirety of my posts rather than jumping on one line. We pretty much said the exact same things. I could give a crap less about them changing the models. I just think it's a sign of hubris and a horrible attitude to feel entitled to shiny models for the sake of idling in town and gaining "respect" just because someone sat in WoE for a while. It's not hard to see this in the OP and some of the posts following it.

This may not be common knowledge, and I know it sure as hell doesn't seem like it is, but having gear and skill does not preclude someone from also being a good person and behaving well. It's amazing, really.

People have this idea that all men/women are endowed with a net 0 sum of attributes. If they're good at one thing, they're bad at another. Geeks are bad at sports, jocks are bad at math, having good gear/skill means you're a jerk, and so on. I think this is just a cop-out. People dislike the idea of any other person being better at one thing than them, so they imagine that said person must have an equally large fault to make up for it. It helps people sleep at night. If you don't believe me, spend a few minutes in any social shell. I guarantee you, from their perspective, every Endgame shell on the server bots, and everyone wearing a {insert HNM color here} pearl is a thieving douchebag. I'd know. I lead a social shell for years, and I've seen the kind of trash people talk on both sides.

But you know what? That's just not true. I have gear, I have skill. My friends have gear, and they have skill. But we're all damned nice guys. We aren't thieving, botting douchebags, or whatever people may label us after seeing us in Jeuno. I'm a casual player. I only really play on weekends. I still get more done than 99% of these forums. Yeah, WoE weapons are fake. Is there a problem with that? Do people want a medal for finishing a fake weapon? Do they want a medal for finishing city Dynamis, too? I sure don't. If you read the OP, and the posts of a few other people in this thread, you'll see very clearly that this isn't about models at all - it's about ego.

Ugly weapons are ugly, but dat swapping them is unacceptable. Why? Because all that matters to them is what other people see. All that matters is that the OP can walk around Jeuno with a giant, glowing {insert weapon here} and everyone else can know that they are supercool. Screw that. Some glowy-ass superd*ck means about as much to me as FFXIAH points.

[svengalis]

I guess that makes armor and gear that we buy out of the auction house "fake" to because we didn't kill x and x NM 20+ times to get our weapon. :rolls eyes:

[svengalis]

News flash everything in this game is fake I wish people would stop saying that.

[svengalis]

I see nothing wrong with dat swapping I just don't know how to do it.

[FrankReynolds]

Just edit the first post. no need for triple posting.

On topic: They are fake in that they are lower quality versions of the the more desired weapon. Much like a fake rolex, or a fake gucci purse. Everyone would obviously buy the real deal if they had money to burn, but we don't, and Guchi bags are easy to spot. Just like that Folex Twashtar.

[Camiie]

The idea that WoE weapons are "fake" is kind of silly. It comes off as kind of degrading to those of us who chose that path because it was one that worked for us. I certainly don't think I deserve to be treated like a queen for having one, and I don't need anything special to be added to it, I just don't think they're something to look down upon either.

[Greatguardian]

It's a fake ultimate weapon. That doesn't make it bad. But that doesn't make it a zomgRelic either.

It's an easier (questionable, but it's supposed to be at least) path towards a knockoff ultimate weapon. Knockoffs of an ultimate weapon are still nice, but that doesn't mean they're not knockoffs. I don't see how that's taken to be demeaning, as it's clearly not meant to be.

[TybudX]

You may want to review what you're saying then. Calling the Empy-WS weapons 'fake', and using the term 'casual' as a negative, defiantly send that message to others.

Respect is something earned by people's behavior. Some people can be godawful players yet still have a lot of respect among their peers because they're mature and helpful. Gear has nothing to do with it, skill has little to do with it.

But expecting gear and skill over behavior are the signs of an elitist. And conducting yourself in a behavior that puts those things above others is an elitist trait.

Everything you just wrote (and pretty much every other 'anti-elitist' poster I've ever seen) is based on your personal opinion and inferences about what little you see of a person posting in a forum. The problem? All you see is those people talking about gear, or jobs, or party set ups, or how to win events and fights. They don't talk about LS problems because those kinds of problems aren't something other people can fix for them, and generally they are personal. They don't talk about getting piece of equipment X with 5 stat because piece of equipment Y has 7 stat, and if you don't have one it's obvious you can use the other. They don't talk about using X job because it's not critical to winning, but if you can still win with job X? Go ahead and use it if that's what you have.

You see people disseminating information about a video game with the end goal being truth, relevancy, and betterment, and assume they hold a hardline stance that only the end goal itself is acceptable. You ignore the obvious fact that nobody is perfect. The people posting this type of information are themselves working towards those end goals. They say 7 > 5, and since you only have 5 you assume they are attacking you for some reason? Are you truly incapable of reading something and understanding the method by which 7 > 5? That's all it takes. Understanding why they say job Y is better for something. Not that it's the only way, but why it's better.

It really is sickening than anybody who wants to make an informative post on these forums needs an addendum outlining their motivation. Do all you 'anti-elitists' read a math text book and accuse the author of being wrong since you don't own a train traveling at 54mph in the opposite direction?

[Hyrist]

Yeah, WoE weapons are fake. Is there a problem with that? Do people want a medal for finishing a fake weapon? Do they want a medal for finishing city Dynamis, too? I sure don't. If you read the OP, and the posts of a few other people in this thread, you'll see very clearly that this isn't about models at all - it's about ego.

You might think you're not being a jerk, but quite a bit in the way you write is showing the reasons why you get called an elitist. You made a comment about it, I'm giving you an answer.

You might think the whole of your statement is neutral and beneficial to the whole. But I made my post knowing well that you and I were stating the same things, because we are stating them in entirely different tones.

For example, your bit about balancing faults, could be easily interpreted as the following. Please note, this does not reflect my view:

"Oh Hey, some people ARE in fact, perfect. Take me for example: I got it all, skill, friends, loot, oh and I'm a nice guy too, and casual! I still manage to get all the gear I want, unlike you people."

That's pretty much what you said when taken negatively, even though I know very well what you were talking about was putting effort into the time you have in the game, and that some people, in fact, can be successful in the game without being some sort of social reject. I too feel like there's a glaring sense of entitlement that is leaking into all forms of gaming, particularly the social aspects like the forums.

But everyone has faults. Perhaps not to the glaring faults people seem to imply, like you said. But it behooves us to be positive members of the community rather than negative. It's easy to mistake the way people say things, and, to keep things positive, we have to keep a mind on how what we say can be taken.

Also, did you happen to overlook the last aspect of my post? I'll restate it.

There is a sense of personal satasfaction in being able to accomplish something that took a lot of effort. Look at the enterty of weapons. You might demean what it would take someone to finish a Walk of Echoes weapon, but many of these weapons require quite a bit of effort from start to finish. Quite a bit more so than simply getting lucky in the new version of Dynamis.

So what is wrong with suggesting a new skin/model for these completed Magian weapons? (Not just the Walk of Echoes weapons, I mean any of them.) You say it's an ego thing. I disagree. I feel as if it would be a fitting reward for being dedicated to the weapon through the entire upgrade process.

I've already explained the reason why not as far as .dat swapping. It would effect every weapon with that model/skin and that gives absolutely no sense of accomplishment.

Don't go and tell me you felt no accomplishment at all when your title read "Dynamis Beaucidine Interloper" for the first time. This is the same thing. Feeling accomplished is not the same as 'having an ego' by which you mean being egotistical. Sure, there are better accomplishments to go for in the game, but that doesn't mean the one's going up the later can't feel any sort of success. I may be mistaken, but you seem to be implying that they shouldn't, which I feel is an improper approach to keeping people in this aging game.

I'm not saying celibate every little thing. (Although Fanfare does play every time you level, keep that in mind.) But Magian Trials are quite the journey, in my view.

[TybudX]

Do you really think the tone of your posts come off how you want them to when the entire point of your post is to attack how you perceive another poster's tone to be? He never would have brought up having friends and fun and being a casual player if you hadn't called him out for being an evil elitist douche bag... not exactly what you said, but that is the tone of your posts. I fail to see how that is being a positive member of the community.

[ShadowHeart]

i checked 5 different weapons on test server magian trial weapons not emps

and the +4 trial is as LOL as the +3 upgrade was...... so i sure wouldnt say mini empyrean

[cidbahamut]

Stop pretending you have some sort of moral high ground Hyrist. You're just some butthurt guy with a soap box. Or was it an axe to grind?

[FrankReynolds]

LOL @ 11 paragraphs on why someone is a jerk.

[Camiie]

Just edit the first post. no need for triple posting.

On topic: They are fake in that they are lower quality versions of the the more desired weapon. Much like a fake rolex, or a fake gucci purse. Everyone would obviously buy the real deal if they had money to burn, but we don't, and Guchi bags are easy to spot. Just like that Folex Twashtar.


Nice. It's like high school all over again! Your tennis shoes aren't Nike or Reebok or whatever? Your clothes didn't come from the mall??? How disgusting!

[Kristal]

Looks be damned.. I only wish SE added some purpose for WoE weapons when people also have the emp weapons... my Revenant Fists +2 are collecting dust since there's no reason to use them after getting Verethragna 85/90.

[FrankReynolds]

Nice. It's like high school all over again! Your tennis shoes aren't Nike or Reebok or whatever? Your clothes didn't come from the mall??? How disgusting!

Actually it's more like "MOM! My shoes aren't Nike or Rebok like the other kids! Buy me better ones!"

[Camiie]

Actually it's more like "MOM! My shoes aren't Nike or Rebok like the other kids! Buy me better ones!"

I certainly never said that, and I doubt most WOE weapon owners have.

Why look down on everyone's choices and accomplishments by calling them "fake?" Is every weapon that's not an empyrean/mythic/relic fake? Is a Timex (a legit brand of watch) a fake Rolex even though it doesn't claim to be anything other than a watch? Is a Toyota real and a Hyundai fake? Is a purse that's not Prada or Gucci fake simply because it's not one of those brands?

The whole fake thing isn't elitist. That gives it too much credit. It's just mindless nonsense that you guys should be above.

[FrankReynolds]

You guys act like the "Elitists" people posting here don't also own "Fake" versions of these weapons. I am not going to build every Empyrian weapon there is. I am building the "Fake" version of some of them. The "Fake" weapons are not bad. They do represent some hard work. They are however still Fake Empyrians in that they attempt to do the same thing, but do not do it as well. Other weapons are not "Fake" Empyrians because they do not require people to go through the same set of trials with an easier fork at the end in order to achieve an end result that gives some, but not all of the benefits of the Real Empyrian weapon.

What's more, if people are really that concerned with taking pride in the weapon, then they themselves are at least a little bit of an elitist too. Even if to a lesser degree.

[Reiterpallasch]

Why look down on everyone's choices and accomplishments by calling them "fake?"
Would the term "gimpyrean" work better for you? Because that's what it is. It's the inferior version of something that is 1: better, and 2: quite possibly faster to make.

Hell the NMs just leading up to empyrean/gimpyrean fork take longer than the actual abyssea/WoE farming does. So why give up halfway after all the hard work is done?

[Greatguardian]

I certainly never said that, and I doubt most WOE weapon owners have.

Why look down on everyone's choices and accomplishments by calling them "fake?" Is every weapon that's not an empyrean/mythic/relic fake? Is a Timex (a legit brand of watch) a fake Rolex even though it doesn't claim to be anything other than a watch? Is a Toyota real and a Hyundai fake? Is a purse that's not Prada or Gucci fake simply because it's not one of those brands?

The whole fake thing isn't elitist. That gives it too much credit. It's just mindless nonsense that you guys should be above.

Fake Gucci purses are fake Gucci purses.

No one gives a damn if they're fake, but that doesn't make them real. They will always be knockoffs. If you have a problem with your knockoff Gucci bag being labeled a knockoff, maybe you should buy a real one. None of the rest of us really care that much.

You don't see me flashing real Gucci purses in your face or laughing at you for having a fake one. But I'll be damned if I don't laugh at the idea that people with fake Gucci purses want e-props for their style and brand factor. If you want e-props, buy a real damn Gucci purse. If you just want something that holds things, get a knockoff. Just don't turn around and b'awwwwwwwwwwwwww at the rest of us solely because we admit to the fact that it's a knockoff.

[Camiie]

The dickery around here continues to grow and grow. I didn't realize there was an internet version of viagra.

The WoE weapons aren't trying to be anything other than what they are. How can they try to be anything anyway? They're virtual inanimate objects. They are high damage weapons with a weapon skill attached. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. Not special, not gimp, not fake, not awesome, not deserving of praise or derision.

Are the people who want to give them flashy special effects, aftermaths or special new models wrong? Yes. Are the people who call them fake or gimpyreans wrong? Yes.

[Arcon]

Would the term "gimpyrean" work better for you?

I love that.

[Camiie]

I love that.

Why? What do terms like that do for you?

[Arcon]

Why? What do terms like that do for you?

It's catchy and it's funny, because it's true. You can beat around the bush all you want, WoE weapons are meant to be the NQ Empyrean weapons. They were meant to be easier to achieve (which is another sign that SE clearly underestimated Abyssea buffs and lowman setups) and are a full downgrade of their Abyssean counterparts, damage-, stats- and Aftermath-wise. Hence, Gimpyrean sounds perfect.

[Camiie]

nope, gimp doesn't fit at all:

(1) a derrogatory term for someone that is disabled or has a medicial problem that results in physical impairment.

(2) An insult implying that someone is incompetent, stupid, etc. Can also be used to imply that the person is uncool or can't/won't do what everyone else is doing.

(3) A sex slave or submissive, usually male, as popularlized by the movie Pulp Fiction.

[Arcon]

nope, gimp doesn't fit at all:

(1) a derrogatory term for someone that is disabled or has a medicial problem that results in physical impairment.

(2) An insult implying that someone is incompetent, stupid, etc. Can also be used to imply that the person is uncool or can't/won't do what everyone else is doing.

(3) A sex slave or submissive, usually male, as popularlized by the movie Pulp Fiction.

vernacular (plural vernaculars)

(1) The language of a people, a national language. The vernacular of the United States is English.
(2) Everyday speech, including colloquialisms, as opposed to literary or liturgical language. Street vernacular can be quite different from what is heard elsewhere.
(3) Language unique to a particular group of people; jargon, argot. For those of a certain age, hiphop vernacular might just as well be a foreign language.
(4) (Christianity, uncountable) The indigenous language of a people, into which the words of the Roman Catholic mass are translated. Vatican II allowed the celebration of the mass in the vernacular.

Guess which one fits.

[Reiterpallasch]

nope, gimp doesn't fit at all
Sure it does!

(2) An insult implying that someone is incompetent, stupid, etc. Can also be used to imply that the person is uncool or can't/won't do what everyone else is doing.

[Camiie]

I thought we were talking about the weapons? Are you now talking about the actual players who own them?

[Reiterpallasch]

Do you own any WoE weapons..?

[Camiie]

I do own a pair of rev. fists +2. Is this a set up for an insult or are we going to have a serious discussion?

[Kimble]

I don't know why anyone would really give a crap if they did make they look different/better when you got done with the 99 trial. Its not like it makes it a better weapon, and its not like it affects you if their weapon looks nice.

[Greatguardian]

I thought we were talking about the weapons? Are you now talking about the actual players who own them?

Funny, because the rest of us are fine with calling NQ weapons NQ. You seem to be the one who's taking it as an affront.

[Camiie]

NQ is fine. Call them NQ all day long. I'll call them NQ myself! Sounds perfect to me. NQ is not demeaning or insulting. Fake and gimpyrean is.

[Greatguardian]

Oh dear, I insulted your weapon. Are its feelings hurt? Will it be okay? Does it need a band-aid?

Seems like the insulted one is you. Maybe you should think long and hard about why someone identifying the status of your weapon affects you.

[Camiie]

Oh dear, I insulted your weapon. Are its feelings hurt? Will it be okay? Does it need a band-aid?

Seems like the insulted one is you. Maybe you should think long and hard about why someone identifying the status of your weapon affects you.


This from the same guy who gave me a hard time about calling out elitists for which I apologized. Then when I call you out for jerkish behavior you can't take it. Kinda odd behavior for someone who claims to be such a darned nice guy. You certainly don't show it on these forums.

[Greatguardian]

If my sister started freaking out after I mentioned that her fake Gucci purse was fake, I'd be pretty bewildered too.

Why do you care so much if someone calls a WoE weapon a fake Emp? Or a Gimpyrean? They're fun, catchy names. Not like most people don't have one.

This isn't even a matter of growing a thicker skin. No one's said a damn thing about the person wielding the weapon. You're the one drawing that conclusion, and pretty much everyone else here is just staring in awe as you proceed to be gravely insulted over the terms used to casually identify some mediocre weapons.

[Camiie]

I just don't think such lines of thought as yours here do the community any favors. Attitudes like this make us look bad. If you're cool with that, then I guess have at it.

[Greatguardian]

Quick recap: My line of thought doesn't extend from the gear to the player.

Yours does, apparently.

Are you saying that being okay with calling my lolNIN gimp and Hauteclaire an ugly gold FakeCalibur is a bad attitude to have?

I think more people should have an attitude like that. Laugh at yourself. Admit your own faults, and weaknesses. Be okay with having a gimpyrean. And most importantly, don't take comments about gear personally. Who the hell cares if you have a fake gimpyrean? I have a shitty NIN. My buddy has an epicly shitty RDM. Like, worst bloody RDM on the entire bloody planet. Are we not friends any more because of that? Does he break down crying whenever we bring up his RDM? Nah. Who cares? He plays his RDM even less than I play my lolNIN. It doesn't affect me any.

Sit down and realize that you've taken over the past 2-3 pages of this thread all because someone called WoE weapons "Fake Empyreans", and you somehow attributed that to be an insult to yourself and other people. That's an extremely unhealthy attitude to have =/ My blood pressure sure as hell couldn't handle that.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Quick recap: My line of thought doesn't extend from the gear to the player.
I think more people should have an attitude like that. Laugh at yourself. Admit your own faults, and weaknesses. Be okay with having a gimpyrean.You're not adding up.

[Greatguardian]

You're not adding up.

No u. 0123456789

If you remove the personal association from your gear, then you can easily be okay with a gimpyrean if that's best suited for you.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

No u.

You're rarely worth bothering with as the majority of your posts are just postcount+1 one-liners, so if you honestly can't understand the logical disconnect, then I'm not going to waste my time going through it.Nice ninja edit, too bad I caught it.

[Greatguardian]

I decided to be nice and bother with you after all. Don't particularly care if you "caught" me.

[Camiie]

Quick recap: My line of thought doesn't extend from the gear to the player.

Yours does, apparently.


Not at all. I judge people based on how they act. How they treat other people.



Are you saying that being okay with calling my lolNIN gimp and Hauteclaire an ugly gold FakeCalibur is a bad attitude to have?


If you were just talking about yourself I certainly wouldn't care.



I think more people should have an attitude like that. Laugh at yourself. Admit your own faults, and weaknesses. Be okay with having a gimpyrean. And most importantly, don't take comments about gear personally. Who the hell cares if you have a fake gimpyrean? I have a shitty NIN. My buddy has an epicly shitty RDM. Like, worst bloody RDM on the entire bloody planet. Are we not friends any more because of that? Does he break down crying whenever we bring up his RDM? Nah. Who cares? He plays his RDM even less than I play my lolNIN. It doesn't affect me any.


It affects you enough to mention it.




Sit down and realize that you've taken over the past 2-3 pages of this thread all because someone called WoE weapons "Fake Empyreans", and you somehow attributed that to be an insult to yourself and other people. That's an extremely unhealthy attitude to have =/ My blood pressure sure as hell couldn't handle that.


And I think your attitude is unhealthy when you apply it to what complete strangers do or have. I laugh at myself all the time, and people laugh at me as well. They're my friends and it's all good natured fun. You think you're kidding around and having a good time, but most people here don't know you. It doesn't come off the same way you think it does. People, especially newer players, see comments like yours and they mistakenly put stock in what you say. They see someone who claims to be elite (not saying you are or aren't and I really don't care) calling this lol and that gimp, and they wonder what kind of community they've gotten themselves into. Maybe you act differently in game when dealing with people "face-to-face" but that doesn't show up here. Rightly or wrongly how we treat each other here does have an impact on how players view the community.

You don't have to act like Little Mary Sunshine, but you also don't have to be the obnoxious guy at the party who goes around teasing people he doesn't even know.

I know nothing will change but I said my piece. I leave the thread to you. The bitch has left the building! (See self deprecating humor! Oh my god)!

[Aeonk]

Are you saying that being okay with calling my lolNIN gimp and Hauteclaire an ugly gold FakeCalibur is a bad attitude to have?

Hey now, don't be dissing the Hauteclaire! Looks better than Excal imo! And I probably spent more time camping it than I should've back in the day... lol

[Sonshou]

Is this the topic to discuss the need for name change and model change for +4 magian trial weapons? What is going on with all the rage and attacks?

I personally desire a name change and model change. And coming up with a new name isn't a big task for Dev team, I dun expect any shiny model like emp or relics, or create new model. But just pick up another old model to indicate you complete another trial.

Some of you might think no matter what name change or model change still the same weapon doesn't afffect anything. But I think it actually does please the person who complete the trial. It is not about being able to show a shinny weapon to others, just a fresh change of look. It is something like fashion. You dun want to wear same old dress for 5 years.

About data swap I personally against it. As of why.... it feel like lieing to yourself. When you got a new dress you want others to see it, not to brag about it, but hope that other would say that is eye pleasing.

[Shadowsong]

GG I seriously have no idea why you bother with these people, but in the end I'm glad you do.
I stopped taking Camii seriously once she dropped the term "derogatory". Nothing in any game is derogatory no matter what it is.
I don't care what anyone says, once you start getting offended from items in a game you're waaaay passed the point of discussing anything with.

inb4: basic respect, idontknowwhattheinternetis, yadda yadda; ok Martin Luther King Jr.

Edit: Oh yeah, on topic: I'm for the idea someone said earlier for allowing a trial at the very end to change models into anything availible, maybe even some unique ones. Would add more flair methinks


About data swap I personally against it. As of why.... it feel like lieing to yourself. When you got a new dress you want others to see it, not to brag about it, but hope that other would say that is eye pleasing.
While I agree in theory, there will always be that nagging feeling that people are still seeing your Kila+3s and baby scythes, some things are just for the enjoyment of the player. I for one know for a fact that .dat modding OHat/Turban, Heca gear, and Aurum boots easily kept me playing the game a year after I woulda stopped lol

[FrankReynolds]

I'm personally fine with all the magian weapons for the most part, however, I think the Staffs need to be renamed because they are retarded for macros. I don't care if my utility dagger looks lame, or if everyone sees my gimpyrian sword or w/e, but The magic attack / acc/ summoner staves need new names so they can be macroed properly. Actually...... they should have a special trial for those, that rewards you with 1 staff that covers all the elements in the end.

They could name it OMFGICANTBELIVEIDIDALLTHESESTUPIDTRIALSMONGER.... and still laugh at mages trying to make macros.

[SpankWustler]

Guess which one fits.

I hope it's the one about a male sex slave, because a male sex slave duct-taped to a spear or axe or maybe even both fists would be a truly terrifying weapon.

Er...anyway...back on topic...

If someone insists on feeling that his or her imaginary weapon is a symbol of his or her social standing in a multi-player videogame, maybe that person should just make whatever weapon will finally fill the gaping abyss within his or her soul.

I don't mind if they re-use prettier models for Empyrean-1 weapons and other Magian stuff at 99, and I don't mind if that they use the most hideous models they can find. It won't change how the weapons perform, it won't change the trials, and it certainly won't change anything about the players that own Empyreans or Empyrean -1's. I'm not a pair of knuckles that are shaped like a turkey, and you're not a cake-server that can inexplicable perform as well as a dagger.

I am, however, a male sex slave duct-taped to somebody's axe. Oh baby, prepare to be most bitterly disappointed by my Cloudspliter!

[Shadowsong]

^ Just won the thread
/lock

Edit: lol trolled by new page

[FrankReynolds]

^ Just won the thread
/lock

Edit: lol trolled by new page

Spank seems to win the majority of threads with comic relief interspersed with cutting reality. There really should be a like button for the overall thread winner.

[Zerich]

ITT: .dat swaps

[Meyi]

ITT: .dat swaps

Shouldn't have to break your contract with Square Enix's Terms of Service to have something new to look at in the weapon slot. And since these will be the level 99, final (or so I think!) upgrades, they should at least have their own names and new designs.

Unfortunately .dat swapping goes against the ToS. A shame because there are some beautiful fanmade dats out there that I think Square Enix should admire.

[ShadowHeart]

magian trial and empyreans arent even in the same ball park and really with the new ws and i am sure weapons to come empyreans 6 months from now will be weapons of the past and just something people do in their spare time while they grind for the real weapons... personally i rather have a sagasinger then an almace but thats just me i guess XD who knows what the current empyreans will even bother to offer at 99 and 6-9 months from now there has to be a lot of new different content to come or the game will die and none of this will matter anyhow XD

i am guessing new weapon skills offered with a +10% ws damage magian weapon might even surpass the current empyreans with right mods just a guess .... who knows what the new expansions 9 months form now will be or offer..

[Arcon]

Unfortunately .dat swapping goes against the ToS. A shame because there are some beautiful fanmade dats out there that I think Square Enix should admire.

Is it? I always thought DAT swapping was allowed, since you're not modifying the code. It can't be considered third-party software, because it's not software. Guess I'll need to look at the exact definition.

[Greatguardian]

Is it? I always thought DAT swapping was allowed, since you're not modifying the code. It can't be considered third-party software, because it's not software. Guess I'll need to look at the exact definition.

Modifying the game files is probably under the huge ToS umbrella, which would include dat replacement. However, they literally have no way of knowing. Like, literally, no way. It's just a different model being called on your computer. It's purely aesthetic.

If that's, like, a moral problem for you, I guess you get to stick with ugly weapons. But you will never, ever be banned for dat swapping.

[Meyi]

Modifying the game files is probably under the huge ToS umbrella, which would include dat replacement. However, they literally have no way of knowing. Like, literally, no way. It's just a different model being called on your computer. It's purely aesthetic.

If that's, like, a moral problem for you, I guess you get to stick with ugly weapons. But you will never, ever be banned for dat swapping.

This.

It's against the ToS, but they have no way of proving it. I'm just saying we shouldn't have to go against the ToS with .dat swapping to make ugly things not as ugly anymore.

[Kincard]

I'm sure I'm in the minority, but I've never really liked dat swapping, it's similar to using lots of mods for certain PC games. Things to change the UI I can understand, but when you start removing/replacing graphical parts of the game (barring high-res textures) and editing certain fundamental gameplay rules, you start to wonder if you're actually playing the game you bought.

That's a really big separate topic though, so I'll just keep it at I support them making new models, and a player really shouldn't be told to go dat swap when he asks for them, because the players shouldn't have to make the game for the creators. If it's simply a manpower issue for making new models, that much I can understand. It would be nice if they used some of the lesser-seen models for the final forms though- when's the last time you saw a Colichemarde (http://www.ffxiah.com/item/16515/colichemarde)?

Well, unless it's that hideous damned Ancient Sword model they used for Khanda. You'd think they could've chosen ANYTHING but that one.

[Greatguardian]

.Dat swaps don't alter any fundamental gameplay rules. They're basically just high-res texture packs.

Or, hell, you can even replace an existing dat with an existing dat. Turn every wax sword into an Excalibur model by just copy-pasting and renaming the weapon dat. Like I said, it's purely aesthetic.

[Kincard]

Eh...I wouldn't say that, since hi-res texture packs are about reproducing the same art design in a better quality, like remastering a movie for a DVD release. Replacing a dat changes what you see and not what other people see. I know people are going to bring out the whole "who cares" clause again, but I doubt any of you can deny that a lot of what tethers you to this game IS the community aspect, as anybody who has ever went "I finally finished my weapon/got that drop" and gathered their LS for a screenshot should know. It's shallow and purely aesthetic, yes, but that's part of the fun.

And, like I said, players really shouldn't be forced to manipulate the game files in order to have their character look a certain way. It'd be fixed if they adapt one of those "make gear look like other gear" systems a bunch of other MMOs are adapting, though I'm guessing in XI's spaghetti code it'd be a nightmare to implement. Oh well.

...Actually, whatever happened to that whole ebon/ebur/furia dye-ing system? You'd think they would've tried to at least expand that concept a little more- like putting it on gear that doesn't suck.

[FrankReynolds]

...Actually, whatever happened to that whole ebon/ebur/furia dye-ing system? You'd think they would've tried to at least expand that concept a little more- like putting it on gear that doesn't suck.

I think that system was just a beta for the AF3 system in abyssea. To be honest, the system sucked as bad as the gear. I'm glad it never really caught on. The gear models were sorta cool though.

[Kincard]

It was actually a beta of sorts for armor dyeing in FFXIV, as well as an attempt to make something unique for synergy (hahaha...), which was an offshoot of the augment system and people complaining you couldn't choose your stats. The system sucked, but only because it was so annoying to get the dye (Really shouldn't need to fight what, at the time, were pretty difficult NMs just to change the color of your armor) as well the general irritation of how making slots in synergy armor worked for really sub-par results. If they fixed it up so that it was a really simple "buy dye, synergize, viola new color", then it'd work fine.

[FrankReynolds]

It was actually a beta of sorts for armor dyeing in FFXIV, as well as an attempt to make something unique for synergy (hahaha...), which was an offshoot of the augment system and people complaining you couldn't choose your stats. The system sucked, but only because it was so annoying to get the dye (Really shouldn't need to fight what, at the time, were pretty difficult NMs just to change the color of your armor) as well the general irritation of how making slots in synergy armor worked for really sub-par results. If they fixed it up so that it was a really simple "buy dye, synergize, viola new color", then it'd work fine.

I think the issue was that the stats were soooooo situational, and just barely a sliver of a hair of a percent better than what was available through normal means. I mean whos gonna take the time to build a gk that performs better than the current standard, but only vs bst mobs on firesday during a full moon. :P

[Kincard]

Oh yeah, the armor definitely sucked (designs were cool, they should reuse them more), but I think it'd be cool if they made you able to dye more armor sets.

You know you want to dye your Cirque capello black so you can look like Tuxedo Mask.

[FrankReynolds]

Oh yeah, the armor definitely sucked (designs were cool, they should reuse them more), but I think it'd be cool if they made you able to dye more armor sets.

You know you want to dye your Cirque capello black so you can look like Tuxedo Mask.

Yeah, some cheap easy armor customization would be cool, but in this game, the ugliest gear being the best gear seems to be the tradition. Honestly, if it took me more than like say 2 minutes to do it, I probably wouldn't bother.

[Shadowsong]

I'm sure I'm in the minority, but I've never really liked dat swapping, it's similar to using lots of mods for certain PC games. Things to change the UI I can understand, but when you start removing/replacing graphical parts of the game (barring high-res textures) and editing certain fundamental gameplay rules, you start to wonder if you're actually playing the game you bought.

You are contridicting yourself.
So you are ok with changing the User Interface, which actually does make playing easier. But you are NOT for .dat swaps with change nothing but how pretty my little axe I swing is?
I'm not sure you fully understand what a .dat swap is. It only changes the model you, personally, singley see. The stats and mechanics and such do not change, and others see the original model.

[Kincard]

What? I know just fine how a .dat works. I don't think you know what a contradiction is, though, nor do I think you grasped the point of my post. I think it's okay to fix what are problems with a game by fixing the game interface because that doesn't affect the core gameplay. Manipulating equations and changing the way jobs work (which is impossible in this game since it's online and all, which is why I brought up PC games in general) would be such a change.

And I'm not AGAINST dat swapping, do whatever you feel like. I just personally don't see the point, because to me, once again, you're changing some things that make the game what it is, not to mention half the reason people get a lot of the items in this game stems in some form from the community aspect. And, like I said, you shouldn't HAVE to manipulate game files for something like this.

[Urteil]

I wish SE would just allow us to assign skins to weapons, like Aion or have a vanity tab.

Even with the best items, NQ or not. Most people are gimp, and are too weak the source of the problem is the psychology.

Item is not usually the source of discontent.


One day I'll get an opponent who has both, /goesbacktoweightliftingskydivingclubbingITing.

[Urteil]

I'm sure I'm in the minority, but I've never really liked dat swapping, it's similar to using lots of mods for certain PC games. Things to change the UI I can understand, but when you start removing/replacing graphical parts of the game (barring high-res textures) and editing certain fundamental gameplay rules, you start to wonder if you're actually playing the game you bought.

That's a really big separate topic though, so I'll just keep it at I support them making new models, and a player really shouldn't be told to go dat swap when he asks for them, because the players shouldn't have to make the game for the creators. If it's simply a manpower issue for making new models, that much I can understand. It would be nice if they used some of the lesser-seen models for the final forms though- when's the last time you saw a Colichemarde (http://www.ffxiah.com/item/16515/colichemarde)?

Well, unless it's that hideous damned Ancient Sword model they used for Khanda. You'd think they could've chosen ANYTHING but that one.

Why couldn't it have been the Death Scythe Model.

Bone Scythe gtfo.

[Zagen]

What? I know just fine how a .dat works. I don't think you know what a contradiction is, though, nor do I think you grasped the point of my post. I think it's okay to fix what are problems with a game by fixing the game interface because that doesn't affect the core gameplay. Manipulating equations and changing the way jobs work (which is impossible in this game since it's online and all, which is why I brought up PC games in general) would be such a change.

By saying UI dat swap is ok but armor/weapon dat swap is not, you are contradicting yourself. They both use the same dat swap process so if you're ok with one you should be ok with the other.

Also just pointing out that by changing the UI on your local end, you are giving yourself an unfair advantage, think about the Utsusemi Counter swap before SE made their own, or all the different icons for statuses that already had their own icon space in the game but SE didn't feel the need to let the players see a difference.

Reducing the stress of counting shadows in your head or making sure the correct buff is up without having to highlight the icons does indeed affect the core game play and give you an unfair advantage. Wax Sword > Excalibur on the other hand does not as it is pure ascetics.

[Shadowsong]

Thanks Zagan that's what I was trying to say.
UI changes literally make the game easier for you. It's not wrong, I do it myself, but don't go saying one is better than the other when its pretty obvious one helps with gameplay (ffxi-atlas maps, Utsusemi Counters, different BRD song icons and COR rolls, yadda yadda) and other helps with my eyes not bleeding from OHats and SAM AF3 lol

[Kincard]

The problem is that you misread my original post to say "this is better than this", when I was giving a personal opinion of what changes made to a game breaks the line between simply making it less annoying to play, to changing the intent of the people who designed the game- that's why I brought up PC gaming in general to begin with, I wasn't speaking specifically about FFXI. Like I said, that's a really broad topic on it's own.

Also, taking just FFXI, many UI "changes" generally don't involve dat swaps anyway.

The more relevant point I wanted to make was that .dat swapping isn't something people should be forced to do if they want their characters to not look dumb, especially in an online game where the community aspect (usually within your own little circle, LS or whatever) is one of the major driving forces to you wanting to get certain items anyway.

[Shadowsong]

Agreed, but after nearly 10 years what are you gonna do? lol
I like that the new Voidwatch armor is pleasing to the eye and moderately useful, rather than just recreating Scorpion Harness and Heca Harness clones.
I agree you shouldn't HAVE to do it, but I don't agree with the people who say there's nothing we CAN do about it.

Edit: To comment on the designer intent. I would think changing the UI would change the game's intent and mechanics WAY more than a changing the skin of a lvl 99 weapon a computer programmer intern copy-pasted from an Onion Dagger.

[Zagen]

The problem is that you misread my original post to say "this is better than this", when I was giving a personal opinion of what changes made to a game breaks the line between simply making it less annoying to play, to changing the intent of the people who designed the game- that's why I brought up PC gaming in general to begin with, I wasn't speaking specifically about FFXI. Like I said, that's a really broad topic on it's own.

You said this right:


Things to change the UI I can understand, but when you start removing/replacing graphical parts of the game (barring high-res textures) and editing certain fundamental gameplay rules, you start to wonder if you're actually playing the game you bought.

Now if you say "Things to change the UI" applies only to official UI changes and not the changes by certain fans, then my mistake. However if you're talking about the UI changes made by a player that color coded all the status icons and made the Utsuemi icon into white 1,2,3 which was a dat swap of the original icon dat sheet. Then Shadowsong was correct in saying you're contradicting yourself.


Also, taking just FFXI, many UI "changes" generally don't involve dat swaps anyway.

Pretty much you just admitted you don't understand how dat swapping works, at least partially you don't as the icons are dat files.

Edit: I get not wanting to change the designer's intent but that also applies to icons being generic since that's how they designed the icon sheet.

[Kincard]

Edit: To comment on the designer intent. I would think changing the UI would change the game's intent and mechanics WAY more than a changing the skin of a lvl 99 weapon a computer programmer intern copy-pasted from an Onion Dagger.

Basically, I don't really believe it should be "either you're okay with all of it or you're against all of it", I think there's something in between that. I brought up HQ texture packs for certain games- for me, while, yes, you're technically replacing a file in the game to make something a higher resolution, you're not actually changing the art design that the creator intended.

Likewise, for a UI change (including icon changes, because unlike gear, people arn't going to see your icons, and with icons most people prefer function over form anyway, unlike gear where lots of people want both), you're not really changing how a fight works. I'll go on record saying that I use the in-game macros since I play on consoles pretty often, but I don't really mind if someone uses a UI change so that they swap out their gear in a single macro rather than in two macros like I need to do. I realize that if you're really pedantic you'll say, "well pressing two macros is what the designer intended", but I think there's a big difference between tackling a challenge of figuring out how to best strategize against a monster's AI and needing to struggle against a game's crappy UI- actually, a lot of this sort of discussion was present when FFXIV was first released, how some people were saying that making the PC interface different would create too much of a rift between them and the future PS3 players.


You said this

Yes, the key part being:


you start to wonder if you're actually playing the game you bought

I wasn't making any sort of statement saying how you're a terribad person if you dat mod, but rather explaining why some people wouldn't want to do it.


Pretty much you just admitted you don't understand how dat swapping works, at least partially you don't as the icons are dat files.

I actually didn't even think of the icons when I was thinking UI changes, was more thinking of macro lines and what have you. Forgot that people even did that. But if you want a distinction between why someone would be okay with dat swapping icons and not gear, see above: People don't see your icons, they do see your gear, and once again, wearing cool gear is a pretty big community thing.

[Arcon]

Pretty much you just admitted you don't understand how dat swapping works, at least partially you don't as the icons are dat files.

There's different kinds of UI changes, some involve DAT swapping (new fonts, icons, etc.) others don't (enhancing UI by adding new things like showing party/alliance TP and MP, adding timestamps to the chatlog, showing JA recast timers on the screen, etc.). Personally I don't even consider the first UI changes, because the interface is still the same, it just looks different, and not by much. Everything works still the same and is still in the same place with the same size and the user can't do anything new. It's largely a cosmetic change, not a functional change (only the part about changing different types of icons). So he wasn't contradicting himself, and you pointing out that he "admitted [he doesn't] understand how dat swapping works" makes you sound like a douche, which I'm guessing you are.

There's a clear difference between cosmetic changes and usability changes and personally I find the first one worse. It changes the game while the latter changes how you play it. I like the game itself a lot, and I find changing it would be insulting to the creators. But the functional aspect is what allows us to enjoy the game, and I wanna properly enjoy it, however with the interface provided to us natively, it's hard to enjoy it, they don't make their own game very accessible to us. Hence why I don't think altering the interface is as bad as changing the design. I'd never DAT swap, I put up with my Widowmaker for almost a year and now the equally fugly Ukonvasara, possibly for even longer, but that's how the designers intended them to look so I'll respect that.

[Shadowsong]

I am very very very confused by Arcon and Kincard-
UI changes MAKE GAMEPLAY EASIER AND CHANGES THE GAME
.dat swaps make it more pleasing to my eye and does literally nothing to change gameplay or mechanics.
Yet you both are saying .dat swaps change the game and the developer's intent and UI doesn't? The developers designed it to make me hate playing THF because of a pointy hat? Or WAR because of yellow boots?
I'm so confused right now I'm not even sure how to put my thoughts into words.
I have seen a million threads bitching about UI changes breaking the game, this is the first I've ever seen advocating .dat swaps are worse.
Come on guys, I myself do both of these things, but it's rather apparent which alters the game more than the other. (well apparently less apparent than I had thought)

ITT: Changing the game is staying true to the game developer's intent? :?

edit: combined a double post

[Arcon]

The distinction between content (gameplay, underlying mechanics, gear, weapons, basically anything the server does), the presentation of said content (character design, world design, spell animations, equipment design, basically everything stored in DAT-files) and user interaction (keyboard controls, reading/interpreting of game content, user input, data presentation) is very clear. DAT swapping (logically) affects only the second category and the server is irrelevant to this discussion.


I am very very very confused by Arcon and Kincard-
UI changes MAKE GAMEPLAY EASIER AND CHANGES THE GAME
.dat swaps make it more pleasing to my eye and does literally nothing to change gameplay or mechanics.
Yet you both are saying .dat swaps change the game and the developer's intent and UI doesn't?

No. None of us have said that (and actually I don't think Kincard and I are even talking about the same thing, but we still didn't say that). Both of them change the developer's intent, but for different categories of the game. The second category is a matter of taste. Whether or not you like an Optical Hat may differ from person to person. And that's the part I don't like messing with.

The third category, however, is not about taste but function. There is a better and a worse interface. The interface SE provided us with is stupid. It doesn't allow us to access the content as much as we could. That's why I don't mind interface enhancements.


I have seen a million threads bitching about UI changes breaking the game, this is the first I've ever seen advocating .dat swaps are worse.
Come on guys, I myself do both of these things, but it's rather apparent which alters the game more than the other. (well apparently less apparent than I had thought)

It's not "one game" they alter, the one alters a different aspect of the game than the other, and they both alter their respective aspects just as much. And in the end, it's your opinion which one you can agree with more, which is exactly why I said this magic word:


There's a clear difference between cosmetic changes and usability changes and personally I find the first one worse.

I'm not saying one is objectively worse than the other. It's just one I don't wanna mess with, because I respect the game content, however the accessibility of that content is retarded at best (hence the million+2 threads about changing this and that through this entire forum).

Cosmetic changes mean absolutely nothing to me (mostly because they're only cosmetic to yourself, to everyone else you're still wearing piss boots). It's like not wanting to admit that you're fugly. Sometimes you are. Deal with it. Make a town set if you need to feel pretty.


ITT: Changing the game is staying true to the game developer's intent? :?

I just can't get myself to respect people who say "ITT" followed by a retarded and (almost universally) wrong summary of a post or thread.

[Shadowsong]

Well thanks for that I guess. Good to know how fast people can write you off on here.
Have fun enjoying your ugly gear

[Zagen]

So what I got is that UI changes (i.e. Showing TP/MP for other members, Unlimited Macro lines, etc.) to "improve" game play are okay because while they aren't sanctioned changes to UI functionality they "improve" game play.

But changing piss colored boots to something else isn't okay even though it "improves" Shadowsong's game play by not having to stare at something he/she considers to be ugly.

[Eri]

So what I got is that UI changes (i.e. Showing TP/MP for other members, Unlimited Macro lines, etc.) to "improve" game play are okay because while they aren't sanctioned changes to UI functionality they "improve" game play.

But changing piss colored boots to something else isn't okay even though it "improves" Shadowsong's game play by not having to stare at something he/she considers to be ugly.

Hell if i cared abou that Shoes :P They would still be ugly on my Screen. If it improves something for you... i'd say:
Sure ok. But you still look like a Hobo on my Screen.
On the other Hand UI changes, while i won't say that breaking the ToS is cool or anything, will improve that Persons Gameplay which results in benefitting the whole Group.

So better looks for Weapons should be made by SE aswell as a better UI. If a Player changes their DATs who am i to stop them it doesn't hurt me. If a Player changes their UI and plays better as a result, cool i benefit.

I would benefit form nicer looking Gear on other Players too in a Way .....

[Shadowsong]

Hell if i cared abou that Shoes :P They would still be ugly on my Screen. If it improves something for you... i'd say:
Sure ok. But you still look like a Hobo on my Screen.

Ah ha! But If i change my own SAM AF3, I never see ANY SAM AF3 :)

Edit: And come on, changing all jug pets on BST to Voidwroughts, Promathias, and Ark Angel MRs is badass as hell lol

[Kristal]

Ah ha! But If i change my own SAM AF3, I never see ANY SAM AF3 :)

Edit: And come on, changing all jug pets on BST to Voidwroughts, Promathias, and Ark Angel MRs is badass as hell lol

Badass.. and wrong.. because Voidwrought(iron giant) is clearly an automaton swap! Although caturae look better then a clunky pile of parts.

[Kincard]

But changing piss colored boots to something else isn't okay even though it "improves" Shadowsong's game play by not having to stare at something he/she considers to be ugly.

You're still not getting what I was saying. I don't care if people dat swap or not, I'm simply saying there's a reason some people don't like it/won't do it, and telling these people to go dat swap when they voice their concerns is missing the point. They don't simply want to change it on their end, they want a weapon model that says, "I did x trial". Shallow? Yes. For some people that's part of the fun.

[Zagen]

You're still not getting what I was saying. I don't care if people dat swap or not, I'm simply saying there's a reason some people don't like it/won't do it, and telling these people to go dat swap when they voice their concerns is missing the point. They don't simply want to change it on their end, they want a weapon model that says, "I did x trial". Shallow? Yes. For some people that's part of the fun.
Then work on the weapon that looks the way you want instead of wanting a weapon that isn't supposed to be special or unique to become special/unique looking when you didn't choose to pursue the special/unique weapon path.

[Eri]

Then work on the weapon that looks the way you want instead of wanting a weapon that isn't supposed to be special or unique to become special/unique looking when you didn't choose to pursue the special/unique weapon path.

Lol theres Trail Weapons that have arguably better stats. Wanna force players to use crappy weapons for better looks?
Wanna have everone look the same but have good Stats?

Seriously some New weapon Models turned up lately. Trail Weapons didn't get any.

If I see 1 more Person say :"Dat Swap!" i'd say: "Brain swap!" Seriously.

[Zagen]

Lol theres Trail Weapons that have arguably better stats. Wanna frorce players to use crappy weapons for beeter looks?
Wanna have everone look the same but have good Stats?

Seriously some New weapon Models turned up lately. Trail Weapons didn't get any.

If I see 1 more Person say :"Dat Swap!" i'd say: "Brain swap!" Seriously.

I'd say don't cry about some of the best off hand stat weapons that anyone with half a brain can make not looking unique or special. But if you are gonna cry then dat swap is the answer because again they aren't supposed to be unique or special.

Now the new merit WS could make many Emp/Relic WS obsolete thus making elemental weapons better as they're easy to keep upgraded but since those are still being tested and could be nerfed I wouldn't bank on that yet.

[Eri]

Everyone with 'Dumb Luck' can get better looking weapons out of Abys or VW (Some Unique Weapon Models on Top) that have rather decent Stats and are considderably less time that any easy Trail Wep, therefore they Simply shoud look at least decent...

[Greatguardian]

It takes a lot more than dumb luck to get HQ weapons from Voidwatch in less time than it takes to create any magian.

As in, Winning the Mog Bonanza type luck.

Do we complain about magians because people who win mog bonanza get free relics? Nah.

[Kincard]

Then work on the weapon that looks the way you want instead of wanting a weapon that isn't supposed to be special or unique to become special/unique looking when you didn't choose to pursue the special/unique weapon path.

...the whole point of the complaint being voiced is precisely the fact that there's no unique model for the paths that don't have one. I just don't see why anybody would be against adding more models to the game for the sake of more variety.

Obviously if there's manpower issues, that's understandable. I just don't get why so many people seem to be vehemently against people asking for some nice models to be added to the game.

[Zagen]

...the whole point of the complaint being voiced is precisely the fact that there's no unique model for the paths that don't have one. I just don't see why anybody would be against adding more models to the game for the sake of more variety.

Obviously if there's manpower issues, that's understandable. I just don't get why so many people seem to be vehemently against people asking for some nice models to be added to the game.

And the point for them not being unique is because while they are powerful stats they are accessible to everyone thus not being unique. If they aren't unique then why have a unique model?

[Kincard]

Whee, here we go, the "only rare items deserve cooler models". Actually, the funny thing about that speaking just within the confines of FFXI is that in for a couple of the weapons there's actually more Empyreans running around than the WoE weapons. Besides, how "accessible" it is has never been some sort of deterrent to them making extra models: See again, Colichemarde, Ryumon...not to mention all the unique-model weapons they made during Abyssea that was for pretty much every single weapon class- Oirandori, Auric Dagger, Plaga Scythe, etc- all of which take only a fraction of the time to obtain versus any given Magian weapon would take.

There's nothing in the way of new models other than just plain laziness or staff limitations. Like I said, that's understandable, but I really don't see why anybody would stop asking for new models just because of that, seems like a really defeatist attitude to be taking.

[FrankReynolds]

Out of curiosity.... Is it not possible to change the title of a thread once it is posted? Or is this purposely called a "Trail Weapon"?

[Zagen]

Whee, here we go, the "only rare items deserve cooler models". Actually, the funny thing about that speaking just within the confines of FFXI is that in for a couple of the weapons there's actually more Empyreans running around than the WoE weapons. Besides, how "accessible" it is has never been some sort of deterrent to them making extra models: See again, Colichemarde, Ryumon...not to mention all the unique-model weapons they made during Abyssea that was for pretty much every single weapon class- Oirandori, Auric Dagger, Plaga Scythe, etc- all of which take only a fraction of the time to obtain versus any given Magian weapon would take.

I sure as hell hope that in any game rare items would have "cooler" (unique) models than more common items.

Empyrean's uniqueness is in the WS and Aftermath they give not in how many exist. It takes 2 competent people less time to complete 2 Empyreans than many elemental paths.

Colichemarde is the only sword that deals darkness damage, it is also the same sword used by demons.
Ryumon also has the unique attack bonus while shadows are up. Also I think this texture isn't unique but I can't compare to other weapons.

Each weapon from abyssea again provides a unique stat bonus/effect also were the best weapon for their level cap in many cases, some past that. Oh and those are texture swaps not actual new models.

[FrankReynolds]

I think they should just color all the elemental ones after the color of the elemental path they are from. Then they should take the rest and give them obnoxious colors like florescent pink and green and orange. That way everyone knows what your working with. :P

[scaevola]

I just don't think such lines of thought as yours here do the community any favors. Attitudes like this make us look bad. If you're cool with that, then I guess have at it.

No, people acting like spazzes over perceived insults to status based on gear is what makes us look bad.

(proud owner of Rev. Fists +2, soon-to-be Harrier +2, and no Empyreans, baby)





(of course, what REALLY makes us look bad is being grown men and women who spend evenings playing computer games with elves and shit but w/e)

[Zagen]

I think they should just color all the elemental ones after the color of the elemental path they are from. Then they should take the rest and give them obnoxious colors like florescent pink and green and orange. That way everyone knows what your working with. :P

I detect some sarcasm but I honestly would find it hilarious to have a neon pink weapon as the OaX weapon line.

[FrankReynolds]

I was being sarcastic, but I also wouldn't mind it :P

[Kincard]

I sure as hell hope that in any game rare items would have "cooler" (unique) models than more common items.

Yeah, that'd be nice if it were true, but that's not the case even now.


Empyrean's uniqueness is in the WS and Aftermath they give not in how many exist. It takes 2 competent people less time to complete 2 Empyreans than many elemental paths.

Uh, exactly my point? So they're easier to complete for some people, and by the line you just said before that by they shouldn't have unique models.


Colichemarde is the only sword that deals darkness damage
Ryumon also has the unique attack bonus while shadows are up.
Each weapon from abyssea again provides a unique stat bonus/effect also were the best weapon for their level cap in many cases, some past that

A bunch of the water path weapons are the only MDB weapons of their type too. What's your point?

That's just a really arbitrary reason you came up with to weasel around the topic. There's plenty of unique stats on weapons that don't have unique models, like the Tredecim Scythe.


Also I think this texture isn't unique

It is. Though they are adding another Utsusemi-bonus katana in the December patch and it's certainly possible they'll reuse it for that one.


Oh and those are texture swaps not actual new models.

Almost all the Dynamis Relics are "just" texture swaps too. What's your point?

[Zagen]

Uh, exactly my point? So they're easier to complete for some people, and by the line you just said before that by they shouldn't have unique models.

Which line?


A bunch of the water path weapons are the only MDB weapons of their type too. What's your point?

That's just a really arbitrary reason you came up with to weasel around the topic. There's plenty of unique stats on weapons that don't have unique models, like the Tredecim Scythe.
All water path but staff are "unique" stat that still doesn't change the fact they are available to everyone.

Can't really argue Tredecim Scythe while technically available to everyone it is a unique effect, and I'm sure you'll be able to point out other weapons if you dig around enough.


Almost all the Dynamis Relics are "just" texture swaps too. What's your point?
Which means nothing since the first sentence in that addresses this.

Be proud you aimed for a common, easy to get weapon that requires little effort or thinking on your part. If you aren't proud of it then you should have pursued something you consider worth being proud of.

[Kincard]

Which line?

I sure as hell hope that in any game rare items would have "cooler" (unique) models than more common items.


All water path but staff are "unique" stat that still doesn't change the fact they are available to everyone.

Yeah. So are a bunch of the other unique-skin/model weapons- and by your own admission, the Empyreans are actually more accessible than the WoE weapons depending on your playstyle, which is why that's not an excuse.


Which means nothing since the first sentence in that addresses this.

Quit being pedantic, it was obvious that significant reskins were included in the discussion, otherwise there'd be way more complaints since that would mean there's only something like 5 models total for each weapon type.


Be proud you aimed for a common, easy to get weapon that requires little effort or thinking on your part. If you aren't proud of it then you should have pursued something you consider worth being proud of.

Actually, I do have an Empyrean for the weapon I wanted a unique model for, so cut the passive-aggressive crap. I just think it'd be nice if more weapons had unique models because, unlike you, I think having more models in the game wouldn't be enough to threaten the "pride" I have in that precious item I obtained in an online game.

[Zagen]

Yeah. So are a bunch of the other unique-skin/model weapons- and by your own admission, the Empyreans are actually more accessible than the WoE weapons depending on your playstyle, which is why that's not an excuse.
Requiring half a brain =/= competent players.
So no not by my admission are they more accessible to the spectrum of players elemental paths and many other magian trials are targeted toward.

If everyone who'd quite happily built elemental magians were competent and knew Emps took a fraction of the time, spent a portion of that time on Emps there would be many more, though really for most I would think it is more of a lack of determination, desire, and/or lack of wanting to have to team up with someone else.


Actually, I do have an Empyrean for the weapon I wanted a unique model for, so cut the passive-aggressive crap. I just think it'd be nice if more weapons had unique models because, unlike you, I think having more models in the game wouldn't be enough to threaten the "pride" I have in that precious item I obtained in an online game.

I think it would be nice too... drop all console support (they will become outdated and a limitation at some point anyways),turn SE into a company that truly cared about its customers, and a real dev team instead of a skeleton crew then we could expect that.

[SpankWustler]

Everyone with 'Dumb Luck' can get better looking weapons out of Abys or VW (Some Unique Weapon Models on Top) that have rather decent Stats and are considderably less time that any easy Trail Wep, therefore they Simply shoud look at least decent...


Out of curiosity.... Is it not possible to change the title of a thread once it is posted? Or is this purposely called a "Trail Weapon"?

Three pages in, and Trail Weapon remains Trail Weapon. So, yes. A Trail Weapon is a Trail Weapon.

[Kimble]

They also aren't english and isn't their first language.

[Greatguardian]

English is a derivative of German, so that's really less of an excuse than it is for French/Spanish/Romance language speakers.

But no, they can change the title of the OP but the thread title won't change. It's kinda a pain.

[Shadowsong]

All this bickering shows one thing: Use .dat swaps.
Its pretty obvious some people really care about their models and some people dont. In that case why bother SE with it? If you care, .dat swap. If you dont, dont.
It doesnt matter if we shouldnt HAVE to do that, but whatever. Why worry about changing content half the people dont care about, when you can do it yourself in 5 minutes?

Then again, if anyone responds with "but then others cant see my cool looking weapon", than you fall into the "work on a weapon that is actually WORTH showing off" category

[Sparthos]

Honestly my only peeve with the 99 weapons is that they won't have a 100% enspell effect for the standard stat+ weapons.

I mean you've fed these things tons of geodes so the least they could do is hit with the appropriate element for some decent added effect damage. Going above and beyond would be to have an aura/glow effect like the Voidwatch weapons but I would be clearly asking for too much.

[Greatguardian]

Eh I'd be unhappy with enspells. They always overwrite Samba, which would force you to choose between a non-elemental magian weapon and 10% JA Haste.

[Karbuncle]

Well, Technically you could offhand a non-magian weapon and still get the samba effect.. or Main hand a non magian, etc.

But still, 2x STR Kila @ 99 looking better and better >_> but still Coruscanti... Thwast, etc..

[Alerith]

Tis not wrong to call a Caliburn a gimp Excalibur.

Tis not wrong to call a Corbenic Sword a gimp Excalibur.

Tis not wrong to call a Badelaire +4 a gimp Almace(99).

[Shadowsong]

^
Careful, the way some people on these forums can get, calling a Gimpyrean a Gimpyrean is equated to killing someone's Grandmother while punting their dog.

[saevel]

Tis not wrong to call a Caliburn a gimp Excalibur.

Tis not wrong to call a Corbenic Sword a gimp Excalibur.

Tis not wrong to call a Badelaire +4 a gimp Almace(99).

Except first two are severely limited while the last one has access to the best Sword WS (CDC) all the time. It's missing the ODD and bonus DEX from Almace but you can still spam CDC like there's no tomorrow.

[Arcon]

Good going Alerith. The pointless flamewar about this issue had just calmed down and you managed to revive it. Hope you're proud of yourself.


Except first two are severely limited while the last one has access to the best Sword WS (CDC) all the time.

How are they more limited than an Almace? Because they don't have access to a WS you'd never use fulltime?


It's missing the ODD and bonus DEX from Almace but you can still spam CDC like there's no tomorrow.

Hence, gimp. Gimp doesn't mean bad. It means not as good as it could be. It's why a THF95/NIN45 has a gimp subjob. It doesn't mean the missing two levels will actually ever hurt them, it doesn't change the fact that it's not as high as it could be. You people read way too much into this.

[saevel]

Good going Alerith. The pointless flamewar about this issue had just calmed down and you managed to revive it. Hope you're proud of yourself.



How are they more limited than an Almace? Because they don't have access to a WS you'd never use fulltime?



Hence, gimp. Gimp doesn't mean bad. It means not as good as it could be. It's why a THF95/NIN45 has a gimp subjob. It doesn't mean the missing two levels will actually ever hurt them, it doesn't change the fact that it's not as high as it could be. You people read way too much into this.

I don't know whatever flamewar the previous guy started, I don't every page here.

Gimp has an extremely negative connotation in the english language. It doesn't only mean "not as good as it can be" it means "completely sucky and an embarrassment to everyone". Even the world "subpar" would be wrong as that means below average which would be implying that Almace is "Average" when it's actually one of the best.

Badelaire +4 isn't bad nor gimp. It easily beats out all other sword options except Almace and possibly Excalibur (situational with jury being out). Thus it belongs in the upper end category, it's great just not awesome. The amount of effort required to get it is comparable to the Infinity +1 sword Almace, so why even mess with the Badelaire when the Almace ends up being better for the same effort.

Of course this game has entirely too many over the top min-maxers (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Whoring) and munchkins (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Munchkin) are worshiped.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Outside 95 Excal with KoR has a fairly good chance of beating Baudelaire+3, You lose the aftermath, +Dex and it has higher delay with less damage rating which do cause it to fall behind (without external buffs anyway).

It's not by a huge margin though.

[Greatguardian]

It's good to know that Saevel is comparing the handicapped and disabled population to a huge embarrassment to the human race, as that's the original definition of the word gimp. Got a bum leg? That makes you a gimp.

The negative connotation was derived from thin-skinned players who couldn't stand to have their oh-so-precious game pride poked at. Being gimp is non-ideal, but it's rarely an assault on the gimp person themselves. The nice thing about FFXI is that your character can't suffer from permanent disability, so being gimp in a video game is a conscious choice rather than a crippling disorder. This is what people really call out when they call out a gimp. Not the fact that someone's gimp, but the fact that they could be ungimp if they cared.

This hardly applies to Gimpyreans anyways, which are really just Empyreans with a lame foot. They can't run a 4 minute mile, but they can still hobble like a boss.

Oh yes, and subpar doesn't have to be below average. Subpar can still be above average. It all depends on how you define par.

[Shadowsong]

My pixel weapons are srs business
Did I not call this reaction?
Gimp = Gimp = Gimp = Gimp. In an online game, if the best option is easy to get than everything under it is gimp. Doesn't matter how close the gimp gear is, why don't people ever comprehend this.