New Monk Weapon skills

[Monchat]

So we have access to three new weaponskills on the test server: Hand-to-hand, club and staff. I played a few with them. They are obtainable with 10 merits after doing the last genkai quest. Each merit upgrades damage. Can merit a maximum of three weaponskills to the max, or 15 weaponskills at level 1. Upgrading one WS to lv5 costs 100 merit points.

(english version is buggy, so I used french version so I dont have the names):

-hand-to hand: 5 fold attack with add plague effect. Help text says DEX modified, but help message on the weaponskill says plague varies with TP so it should not be crit weaponskill. Did a few tries on EP bunny @ vollbow outpost with veretragan 95 and spharai 95, with TP gear:

veretragna: asuranfists 1400~1600, victory smite 1800~2000, NewWS= 1800~2000

spharai: asuran ~1700 NewWS~2200.

Ok the new H2H WS is not crap at all. Looks comparable to Victory smite, so spharai 99 + NewWS should be = to empy 99 with victory smite. Of course there is goign to be a lot of comparison in the next days once Modfifiers are known and WS gear sets are optimized.

Also I did 1.5k damage with the staff ws (earth staff), and the club WS is a 7 hit one, I did 1k dmg with a DMG1 club lol.

[MarkovChain]

Anyone else thinks denali body +5 is overpowered ?



Denali Set +5 - Set Bonus Sometimes deals big damage:

Denali Bonnet +5 - DEF34 STR+6 AGI+14 Ratk+6 Macc+6 Mab+6 Crit+4% Setbonus
Denali Jacket +5 - DEF63 ACC+12 Haste+4 Doubleattack +3% Trippleattack+3% Quadrupleattack+3% Setbonus
Denali Wristbands +5 - DEF28 DEX+8 VIT+8 AGI+8 ACC+10 EVA+10 EnhancesFastcast (4%) Haste+4 Setbonus
Denali Kecks +5 - DEF47 STR+9 AGI +9 ATK+14 EVA+14 Haste+6 Setbonus
Denali Gamashes +5 - DEF26 DEX+10 AGI+10 MND+10 ATK+16 Ratk+10 DoubleAttack+3% Setbonus


1+3*0.03+(1-0.03)[ 2*0.03+ (1-0.03)*0.03 ]=1.176

works more or less like double attack +17.6% starting from zero

and with /war brutal epona atheling it acts as double attack + 13% more or less aka beats anything in the game including AF3+2 body during impetus probably. It's all the greater that level 99 vere will make it even easier to cap fstr. Also allows less haste in other slots.

[Greatguardian]

I think it's pretty neat, but if they're unlocking Floors 101-500 I doubt it'll be "easy" to casually obtain.

My money's on each 20th floor repeating the same armor slot as the first 100, with Floor 120 dropping Feet+1, and so on, with new HNM tiers every 50 floors. So, you'd need to climb to floor 480 and spam the level 99 boss there in order to get Jacket+5.

Hell, if they're feeling really mean, they may even make the bosses drop items used to upgrade the pieces rather than the upgrades pieces themselves.

Edit: Actually, this seems off, since they'd need 600 floors to do that. Maybe floors 20-100 are getting a revamp and drop the +1s? Then 120-200 drop the +2s, etc.

[Monchat]

I didn't think I'd ever say that Nyzlul and denalol would be good for monk... Maybe I'll go farm the pieces I don't have. I have the hands, and I think I had the Body for THF, maybe tossed it. Can't wait for salvage upgrades.

[MarkovChain]

sounds more fun than voidwatch.

On that note the new head/body will be great for the new H2H WS.
Optimal gear in other slots would be ZNM hands, byakko, denali feet +5, plus various easy to obtain gear in other slots for +90 dex.

I ran some numbers assuming the dex mod is 100% using 1.0 ftp on the first hit.
With level 99 spharai and that new WS
5*(0.11*432+3+52+13+0.85*175)*1.98=2616.2730
With level 99 vere and that new WS
5.25*(0.11*432+3+42+12+0.85*0.6*190)*(0.6*1.980000000+0.4*2.980000000)=2516.742900

I assumed a mob with 460 def, that you have 900 attack, and that VS averages to be 40% crit rate globally between impetus up/down. With ftp=1.0 and good gear it's already better than VS but only if you got spharai maxed.

[Motenten]

veretragna: asuranfists 1400~1600, victory smite 1800~2000, NewWS= 1800~2000

spharai: asuran ~1700 NewWS~2200.

Did you do those tests with the weaponskills just unlocked (1 merit) or fully upgraded (5 merits)?

Given that the damage is on par with VS, I'm going to guess 5 merits. Can you try a few more with just 1 merit to see how much of an upgrade it is to max them out?

[FrankReynolds]

I think it's pretty neat, but if they're unlocking Floors 101-500 I doubt it'll be "easy" to casually obtain.

My money's on each 20th floor repeating the same armor slot as the first 100, with Floor 120 dropping Feet+1, and so on, with new HNM tiers every 50 floors. So, you'd need to climb to floor 480 and spam the level 99 boss there in order to get Jacket+5.

Hell, if they're feeling really mean, they may even make the bosses drop items used to upgrade the pieces rather than the upgrades pieces themselves.

Edit: Actually, this seems off, since they'd need 600 floors to do that. Maybe floors 20-100 are getting a revamp and drop the +1s? Then 120-200 drop the +2s, etc.

I would guess that they are gonna make 1-100 drop +1 item, so that people who have them completed have a reason to go back and do them with people that don't.

[Monchat]

Did you do those tests with the weaponskills just unlocked (1 merit) or fully upgraded (5 merits)?

Given that the damage is on par with VS, I'm going to guess 5 merits. Can you try a few more with just 1 merit to see how much of an upgrade it is to max them out?

Its with level 5 merit. Here is more numbers on lv -1 mandy/rabbits/bees outside of windurst:

H2H skill=447
STR133 DEX107 AGI86 VIT101 INT77 MND77 CHR71
MNK99/THF49.
Sneak attack+ Shiijin fist with TP slightly above 100 ( assuming its not damage vairies with TP)
Weapon: spharai 95 (D48).

This gives 113 base damage; confirmed since the max crit I got: 355.

Numbers:
636
639
625
635
635
628
655
624
647
659
622
676
637
619

Maximum of 676 so far. It doesnt work with 100% mods hypothesis so far since

(113+107*0.85)*3.15=642.

So either the first hit's fTP is higher, or something else is a mod, or dmage varies with TP since some got done with more than 100tp.

[Greatguardian]

I don't see any confirmation that the first hit fTP is 1.0 anyways. As far as I know, that's just an assumption for simplicity in Pchan's math.

[MarkovChain]

The description says that duration of plague varies with TP. Those numbers tell us it's superior to what I mathed above, most likely higher ftp which is good as far as multi attack gear goes. Just need different dex or skill values now and do a linear approx.

Or it could mean the 0.85 is no longer valid.

[Monchat]

its plague succes chance varies with TP actually. Anyway 672 with a 300TP shijin fist so its not damage varies with tp.

[Monchat]

What is my base damage with a D48 weapon and capped STR lol? I just got a 357 crits so my base dmg must be over 114. but with 447 skill and 5 weapon rank its says 48+52+13=113.

[MarkovChain]

113 so umm... it's 114. Do you have some kind of crit+ or impetus ? Maybe a job trait ? /thf ? Still doesn't explain the numbers. Did you use wsdmg+ gear ? Did you mix with a kick maybe?

[Greatguardian]

All pertinent BG testing thus far suggests Alpha is still 0.85.

[Motenten]

And Guillotine has "duration of silence varies with TP", with an fTP of 0.875. We can assume 1.0 for now, but there's nothing that says it has to be that.


Hmm. The distribution of damage is a bit odd. There's a 17 point gap between #1 and #2; 37 points between #1 and #5. Meanwhile there's 5 results between #5 and #9 covering a spread of just 4 points of damage, and 5 results between #10 and #14 covering 9 points of damage.

In other words, a very low frequency of values at the uppermost range, which is contrary to standard crit distributions which give a higher frequency of results in the upper range. The middle and bottom ranges look a bit like over 3.0/under 3.0 distributions, but not enough to really tell.


Regardless, with 676 max damage that puts base damage at at least 215. With non-WSC damage of 113, that means at least 102 damage from WSC if fTP is 1.0. Could theoretically have 112.5% Dex mod (some indication that it was dex modded?), as (107*112.5%) = 120.375 => 120 * 0.85 = 102.

With the 17% (or 17.5%?) number being floated around (someone mentioned it as part of the merit description, I think?), that would put the WSC at 60% with 1 merit. As such I would then predict: 54 WSC for 107 dex, so 113+54 = 167 base damage, max crit of 526.

That would be a 28.5% increase in total damage by taking it from 1 merit to 5.



What is my base damage with a D48 weapon and capped STR lol? I just got a 357 crits so my base dmg must be over 114. but with 447 skill and 5 weapon rank its says 48+52+13=113.

That's..... odd. Base damage would have to be at least 114, but I don't see any way you could reach that, unless you somehow missed an extra 8 points of skill equipped somewhere. It's not a normal hit that got a triple proc off the relic?

[Monchat]

113 so umm... it's 114. Do you have some kind of crit+ or impetus ? Maybe a job trait ? /thf ? Still doesn't explain the numbers. Did you use wsdmg+ gear ?

yea impetus lol. its 113 then.

[MarkovChain]

We need the values with vere to interpolate. The dex assumptions comes from the ingame description of merits I think (or JP versions ?)

[Leonlionheart]

In terms of Denali being amazing, I think it's interesting to note that Nyzul gear was, in many ways, just scaled down Salvage gear. (Denali hat was very similar to Usukane hat, Morrigan's hands were basically +1 everything that was on goliard hands)

Don't know if they'll keep the trend, but I'm very hopeful.

[MarkovChain]

Ok ingame description in the merit list :

H2H skill 357 or greater
ajusts DEX bonus by 17%

The color of the ws in the ws list is red if anyone wondered, also virus is fire based.

[Motenten]

17% can't be exact in /1024 values. 175/1024 would be 17.09%. 179/1024 would be 17.48%.

4 upgrades of just 17% would be 68%. Could perhaps be 50% with one merit, up to 118% with 5 merits. Perhaps target 100% with 4 merits, so 117% with 5 merits, and 49% with 1 merit (or 47.5% with 1 merit up to 117.5% with 5 merits, if the 17.5% speculation was valid).


If the gap between 1 and 5 merits seems to be less, it could be 17% of whatever the base mod is. For example, 60% base, 60%*1.17=70% for 2 merits, 60%*1.34=80% for 3 merits, 60%*1.51=90% for 4 merits, 60%*1.68=100% for 5 merits.

[Monchat]

So now with verethragna at lv 90 ( apparently its not 95 on the test server), ive got a max shijin fists of 630 with the same stats ( so in this case 99 base dmg).

(113+MOD)*3.15*fTP=676
(99+MOD)*3.15*fTP=630.

This is consistent with fTP=1 and MOD=102 for example, although other combinations are possible. could be another stat as mod

[MarkovChain]

max H2H, dex 96, str 156,vit 107 I have a maximum of 606 with D39 on vere 95.

So far I think 85% dex mod and 1.125 ftp would match. 17*5=85 btw it could be that each merit adds 17%.
Seems to matches with mdk's values too ...

nvm as I got 614 on the next ws.....

[Monchat]

Almost naked now, with just vereth 90 and tantra gloves:

STR107 DEX102 VIT89 AGI86 INT77 MND88 CHR71 gives a maximum of 612 ( so far).

STR141 and same DEX/VIT etc as above: 617 max ( so far)

Might be a STR mod too. 100% DEX 10%STR ftp=1 could work. But im goign to sleep hoping someone finds tomorrow. testing sucks.

[MarkovChain]

My final data

STR 156/ DEX 96 / VIT 107 / H2H kill 454 / damage +39
range between 550 and 614 (20 ws)

STR 155/ DEX 96 / VIT 107 / H2H kill 440 / naked weapon
range between 450 and 463 (10 ws)

STR 155/ DEX 96 / VIT 107 / H2H kill 440 / damage +25
range between 482 and 549 (5 ws)

I did a small loop


for x from 0 to 150 do
> for y from 0.50 to 1.50 by 0.01 do
> S:=y*3.15*(51+8+x);
> T:=y*3.15*(52+39+12+x);
> U:=y*3.15*(51+25+11+x);
> if (S>= 463 and S <= 463+20 and T>= 614 and T<= 614+20 and U >=549 and U<= 560) then print(x,y,S,T,U);end if;
> end do; end do;
which checks which possible values for "x" (=the mod ) and "y" (=the ftp) match while x is an integer and y varies by steps of 0.01 (the damage must be greater than what I find, and smaller than that damage +20). The only matching values are x=76,y=1.09.

So right now I think it's 1.09 ish ftp and 76 mod for dex=96. Seems to be around 94% dex it's not pretty.

Looking at mdk's data with spharai
1.09*3.15*(52+48+13+0.85*0.94*107)=681 while he find 676 and if we floor
floor(1.09*(52+48+13+floor(0.85*0.94*107)))*3.15=677.25 so close to what he finds

Now for his data with 107 dex and vere 90
floor(1.09*(52+35+12+floor(0.85*0.94*107)))*3.15=630

Now for his last data (which is with vere 90 not spharai 90 as he has spharai 95)
floor(1.09*(52+35+12+floor(0.85*0.94*102)))*3.15=617.40

mew ?

summary :ftp=1.09 and 94% DEX (if dex is the only mod)

[Greatguardian]

That's really not pretty at all. If we assume that the WSC value is in X/1024 format, and is divisible by 5, you're still stuck between 960/1024 = 0.9375 and 965/1024 = 0.94238. Beyond that, it would be adding 19.2-19.3%/merit versus anything close to 17%.

[Motenten]

You have U limited to 560. Is there any reason you didn't use 549+20 there like the others? It's still within scope even if the low end value is at the absolute bottom of the pDif range.


If we assume a 1.0 fTP (for simplicity) we have:

S = 3.15*(51+8+x); @463+
T = 3.15*(52+39+12+x); @614+
U = 3.15*(51+25+11+x); @549+

Valid base damage that can result in a value between the max observed sample and +20 dmg higher than that:
S = 147 to 153
T = 195 to 201
U = 175 to 180

Which gives a value of x between:
S = 88 to 94
T = 92 to 98
U = 88 to 93

Overlap: 92-93

Extracting alpha means it needs a total between 109 and 110.

Given a dex of 96, that means a WSC between 113.6% and 114.5%. Will just call it 114%.


Checking earlier data:

102 dex == 98 WSC
Vere 90 = d35
Skill = 447 == d52
Total base: 52+35+12+98 = 197
197 * 3.15 = 620 (observed: 617)


107 dex == 102 WSC
Spharai 95 = d48
Skill = 447 == d52
Total base: 52+48+13+102 = 215
215 * 3.15 = 677 (observed: 676)



At the moment it looks like a solid estimate: 1.0 fTP, 114% dex WSC. The config that's furthest off is the one you only had 5 samples for.

[MarkovChain]

I'll check further tonight, but yeah my last test only had 5 attempts and I should have put +20 not +10 in the loop. If someone could explain the BG idiots in the Test server thread that you don't test a WS based on its damage against level 100 voidwatch NMs...

I ran numbers with my simulator (the one that accounts for 4s pause between mobs and 10k HP mobs)
and spharai 99+shijin is about on par with vere+VS


*With ftp=1.09 and 94% mod
440 def mobs, 110 vit, dia3, 1 level difference
700 base attack on both weapon during ws (+40 for sparai I know it's a bit less)
21% DA 3% TA on both sets
200 dex 192 str assumed (I know it's far from perfect for vere)

VS~2723 (account for impetus accounts 20% crit%)
SS~2779

*With ftp=1.0 and 114% mod
440 def mobs, 110 vit, dia3, 1 level difference
700 base attack on both weapon during ws (+40 for sparai I know it's a bit less)
21% DA 3% TA on both sets
200 dex 192 str assumed (I know it's far from perfect for vere)

VS~2728 (accounts for impetus assumes 20% innate crit%)
SS~3066

I think it's going to be a tie in the end. Spharai doesn't rely on having AM up and offers defense and lolplague while vere is good when chaining etc. Then we have to examine the afterglow effetcs...

[Concerned4FFxi]

Is there a reason why the new ws are shitting on people who spend countless hours in WOE to get a mini-empyrean, and now anyone can just merit a ws? Because we all know how hard getting xp is these days. Am I the only one that sees this as a problem?

[darkhorror]

Anyone tested footwork with new WS? Ether way it will make testing easier due to tp gain if you aren't using it to gain tp. Start with a +0 dmg weapon and test a large change in each stat keeping the other stats the same. Then once we make sure DEX is the only mod, do some ws's with not very much dex, then another with a lot of dex.

[Monchat]

yeah I kept footwork up full time or it takes forever to get tp on the low level mobs since you one shot them. It's 3 times faster.

[Motenten]

While I realize it's a lot to ask, I'm hoping you can do a controlled test on fTP. Need about 40 samples each, with and without a gorget (and elemental belt, if you happen to have one to match), using the usual SA+WS on starter zone mobs. Stack as much dex as possible on those tests, since higher base damage values make it easier to differentiate the results. Provide all sample values, not just high/low. Two sets of comparative results (one from each of you) would help make validation easier.

Latest from Gobli apparently have fTP at 1.0625 or something like that, but they may be assuming the 100% stat mod at 5/5.

[MarkovChain]

Updating my data
[D=+0,DEX=96,skill=440]
[463,450,465,456,450,461,455,455,457,460]
[D=+25,DEX=96,skill=440]
[489, 482, 525, 492, 549, 518, 535, 490, 542, 552, 523, 546, 549, 554, 537, 545, 491, 549, 492]
[D=+39,DEX=96,skill=454]
[605,595,556,599,539,590,603,606,604,586,614,595,605,586,601,594,550,605,600,593,559]

Still not enough to accurately narrow the mods but using my loop above If you assume that I am 5 away from the max in each case it only leaves 76 for mods, 1.09 for ftp, and the respective max should be 463,557,614

However if I assume I'm still far from the maximum it doesn't excude 1.06 ftp (which implies 100% dex mod)

[Monchat]

While I realize it's a lot to ask, I'm hoping you can do a controlled test on fTP. Need about 40 samples each, with and without a gorget (and elemental belt, if you happen to have one to match), using the usual SA+WS on starter zone mobs. Stack as much dex as possible on those tests, since higher base damage values make it easier to differentiate the results. Provide all sample values, not just high/low. Two sets of comparative results (one from each of you) would help make validation easier.

Latest from Gobli apparently have fTP at 1.0625 or something like that, but they may be assuming the 100% stat mod at 5/5.

What belt/gorget work with SHijin spiral lol is it known? Well if I dont have it i could abyseea and brew something that drops it.

[Konigwolf]

Shijin Spiral makes light with Apex Arrow so it has either fusion or fragmentation.

[Motenten]

Unfortunately, not sure on skillchain element. Thought I had it, but the list I have doesn't have H2H. Should be pretty easy to figure out, though.

Also, using the second and third test sets given above, it's pretty much an exact match for 1.0625 fTP and 100% dex mod, with 96 dex giving 81 WSC. The first one is believably within range, as well.

[Konigwolf]

SC test:

Dragon Kick (fragmentation) > Shijin Spiral = Light >> shijin has fusion element
Final Heaven (fusion, light) > shijin spiral = nothing >> shijin has neither fragmentation nor light element

A small ftp test (dozing off to zzz):

DMG +34, H2H skill 440
STR 134, DEX 126, Attack 739
5/5 shijin merit

With flame gorget and light belt, SA shijin on starter mobs:

704
804
773
790
769
758
787
736
769
802
776
721
742

Without gorget, belt:

651
626
654
581
665
658
665
653
635
641
658

[MarkovChain]

The above gorget + belt excludes 1.09 ftp // 94% dex as
3.15*floor(1.29*(52+34+12+floor(0.85*floor(0.94*126))))=803.25
It's still within 1.0625 / 100% dex range

The second test has too low numbers to conclude

[Motenten]

If Dex is 100%, that requires an fTP between 1.0392 and 1.0637 for the second test.

The first test would have an fTP between 1.0549 and 1.0598 if the gorget and belt were exactly 0.1. Using 100/1024, though, it would give an fTP between 1.0596 and 1.0645.

The tests themselves have insufficient number of samples to be sure of an fTP range. Best I can narrow it down while ignoring WSC is between 0.964 and 1.113.


For now I'll use 1.0625 in the spreadsheet for initial comparisons.

[Motenten]

Put this in the spreadsheet to look at some comparitive numbers (5/5 merits for Shijin) based on current fTP and WSC values.

Using Vere 90 as weapon (outside Abyssea):

Smite:
Tantra Tathlum
Aias Bonnet
Rancor Max
Brutal
Vulcan
Tantra +2
Heafoc
Rajas
Epona
Atheling
Black
Usukane
Tantra +2

Shijin:
Demonry
Aias Bonnet
Gorget
Brutal
Jupiter
Loki's Kaftan
Ample Gloves
Thundersoul
Thundersoul
Nifty
Warwolf
Byakko
Melee +2

Asuran:
Thew Bomblet
Aias Bonnet
Justiciar's
Brutal
Aesir
Tantra +2
Melee +2
Rajas
Spiral
Atheling
Anguinus
Usukane
Tantra +2


VS fodder mobs with capped pDif:
Shijin: 2253
Smite (-Impetus): 2191
Smite (+Impetus): 2573
Asuran: 1689

Bukhis (changed hands in both sets to Melee+2):
Shijin: 1549
Smite (-Impetus): 1723
Smite (+Impetus): 2126
Asuran: 1512

Faux-Qilin target (changed hands in both sets to Melee+2):
Shijin: 1002
Smite (-Impetus): 1235
Smite (+Impetus): 1262
Asuran: 965


On tougher mobs, Shijin is a bit ahead of Asuran; on weak mobs it's well ahead of Asuran. On tough mobs Smite has a comfortable lead over Shijin, while on weaker mobs they're about on par, if Impetus is down. If Impetus is up and acc is good, Smite takes a substantial lead.


Overall assessment:

If you have Smite, just keep using it.
If you don't have Smite, this is a mild upgrade from Asuran. On the most difficult mobs, Asuran will probably close the gap if you take advantage of the "Accuracy varies with TP" aspect, but on lower end stuff Shijin will be notably better.

The impact of Plague from Shijin is as yet unknown.

[MarkovChain]

It might be due to me not using the spreadsheet correctly but anyway something sounds wierd. On the shijin page If I want to compute the average number of hits per WS I do the sum of the column 'Q' times 'F' over all the lines. If the case of DA=20% and 95% hitrate for instance I find 5.2 when it should average to (1.2+1.2+3)*0.95=5.13
If I do the same stuff for victory smite page (columns H times F) I find 4.18 which is correct since (1.2+1.2+2)*0.95=4.18.

So did you forget to count DA on second hit for shijin calculus ?

Secondly for the data page that I downloaded I have a target of level 106, 560 def, 120 vit which I assume would be qilin ? If I push my accuracy enough, for instance by using extra madrigals, in order to cap accuracy and I compare the spreadsheet gives 1260 average shijin vs 1164 victory. So Shijin is technically superior than VS to me.

Ok now using impetus up & down feature I find with 95% melee acc / 95% ws acc on both sets :

impetus up : VS=> 1372
impetus down : VS=> 1164
shijin => 1260

So shinjin will beat victory/be equal for pure damage (but maybe not for in DPS due to aftermath) as long as your accuracy is good, no ?

[Atoreis]

It might be due to me not using the spreadsheet correctly but anyway something sounds wierd. On the shijin page If I want to compute the average number of hits per WS I do the sum of the column 'Q' times 'F' over all the lines. If the case of DA=20% and 95% hitrate for instance I find 5.2 when it should average to (1.2+1.2+3)*0.95=5.13
If I do the same stuff for victory smite page (columns H times F) I find 4.18 which is correct since (1.2+1.2+2)*0.95=4.18.

So did you forget to count DA on second hit for shijin calculus ?

Secondly for the data page that I downloaded I have a target of level 106, 560 def, 120 vit which I assume would be qilin ? If I push my accuracy enough, for instance by using extra madrigals, in order to cap accuracy and I compare the spreadsheet gives 1260 average shijin vs 1164 victory. So Shijin is technically superior than VS to me.

Ok now using impetus up & down feature I find with 95% melee acc / 95% ws acc on both sets :

impetus up : VS=> 1372
impetus down : VS=> 1164
shijin => 1260

So shinjin will beat victory/be equal for pure damage (but maybe not for in DPS due to aftermath) as long as your accuracy is good, no ?

Its all cool on paper but not really match reality. I have only 2 parses from Qilin. First is mine and it was mostly with impetus up and my avg Vsmite is 2420 (971, 1116, 1209, 1788, 2237, 2331, 2469, 2801, 2832, 3182, 3758, 4348) Note I had fighter roll and minuet V but that shouldnt pump my damage by +80% from what you got on "paper".

2nd parse is some JP MNK and fight was longer so there was impetus up and down. His avg Vsmite is 2106. He had chaos roll and minuet V (1214, 1231, 1256, 1407, 1520, 1569, 1647, 1666, 1774, 1865, 1958, 2162, 2241, 2324, 2534, 2536, 2570, 2672, 3227, 3264, 3608)

On all parses I did against Kaggen Pil and Qilin I was never below 1800 and some of them (Kaggen) can lower your avg damage by a lot with Bio+statsdown tp move. Idk what you doing wrong that theory doesn't match reality (maybe you doesn't count temp items that you get when doing VW?) but its far off.

[Motenten]

It might be due to me not using the spreadsheet correctly but anyway something sounds wierd. On the shijin page If I want to compute the average number of hits per WS I do the sum of the column 'Q' times 'F' over all the lines. If the case of DA=20% and 95% hitrate for instance I find 5.2 when it should average to (1.2+1.2+3)*0.95=5.13
If I do the same stuff for victory smite page (columns H times F) I find 4.18 which is correct since (1.2+1.2+2)*0.95=4.18.

So did you forget to count DA on second hit for shijin calculus ?

Going to need to review this....

Yep, there's an error. When I rewrote it, I got rid of some numbers that I shouldn't have (the second DA/TA/QA values; they're the same as the first for mnk, but different for dnc; I'd deleted them since mnk didn't need, but the formulas still referenced them).

In the case of the sum of F*Q, the result should be 5.40 with 20% DA. F column is the number of swings, not the number of hits, so acc won't factor into the result.

Fixed version uploaded.



Secondly for the data page that I downloaded I have a target of level 106, 560 def, 120 vit which I assume would be qilin ?

Select the target on the Setup page (L1). That info gets used in the Data page. Qilin has completely made-up numbers, but is intended to represent a very difficult mob that you probably won't cap acc on, etc.



If I push my accuracy enough, for instance by using extra madrigals, in order to cap accuracy and I compare the spreadsheet gives 1260 average shijin vs 1164 victory. So Shijin is technically superior than VS to me.

Doing a little comparison.. Added 50 acc to each set (you can put arbitrary adjustments on the blue Set Bonus line on the Gear page) to cap accuracy. With both capped on accuracy, but cRatio still around 1.0, the best/closest I can get is 1140 Shijin, 1214 Smite. If you could copy the gear lists you're using for each set, that might help me understand what you're seeing.


From what I'm looking at, if you're at capped accuracy on both, Shijin has a slight lead at high cRatios and Smite has a slight lead at low cRatios (excluding Impetus).

[Motenten]

Its all cool on paper but not really match reality. I have only 2 parses from Qilin.

Note: the values I have for Qilin are fake. I haven't gotten decent estimates on NM stats on pretty much anything, so I just had to make up a 'difficult mob' to replace Bukhis (for which I at least had real estimates for, even if it was a bit rough) after the level cap increased to 95. The name on it is "Qilin?" since I didn't really have anything better to call it.

[MarkovChain]

Its all cool on paper but not really match reality. I have only 2 parses from Qilin. First is mine and it was mostly with impetus up and my avg Vsmite is 2420 (971, 1116, 1209, 1788, 2237, 2331, 2469, 2801, 2832, 3182, 3758, 4348) Note I had fighter roll and minuet V but that shouldnt pump my damage by +80% from what you got on "paper".
It matches a mob with extraordinary def and level which is not qilin then. But it doesn't matter because contrary to pupular thoughs, crit ws will not be greatly superior to others in low pdif case unless it's both low pdif and low level corection. In this cas this is due to VS being not a very good weapon skill if it couldn't crit.






2nd parse is some JP MNK and fight was longer so there was impetus up and down. His avg Vsmite is 2106. He had chaos roll and minuet V (1214, 1231, 1256, 1407, 1520, 1569, 1647, 1666, 1774, 1865, 1958, 2162, 2241, 2324, 2534, 2536, 2570, 2672, 3227, 3264, 3608)


It means qilin has no defense lol, doesn't really matter.



On all parses I did against Kaggen Pil and Qilin I was never below 1800 and some of them (Kaggen) can lower your avg damage by a lot with Bio+statsdown tp move. Idk what you doing wrong that theory doesn't match reality (maybe you doesn't count temp items that you get when doing VW?) but its far off.

It means Qvoidwatch NMs doesn't have unusual defense just accuracy at worse.

[Atoreis]

It matches a mob with extraordinary def and level which is not qilin then. But it doesn't matter because contrary to pupular thoughs, crit ws will not be greatly superior to others in low pdif case unless it's both low pdif and low level corection. In this cas this is due to VS being not a very good weapon skill if it couldn't crit.







It means qilin has no defense lol, doesn't really matter.



It means Qvoidwatch NMs doesn't have unusual defense just accuracy at worse.

Well you guys need to go on Qilin/Kaggen/Pil and test it with Spharai.

[Monchat]

The queston that needs an answer: clear winner between spharai+shijin versus verethragna + victory smite? I Need to decide which I'll upgrade first @99 lol.

[Monchat]

Its all cool on paper but not really match reality. I have only 2 parses from Qilin. First is mine and it was mostly with impetus up and my avg Vsmite is 2420 (971, 1116, 1209, 1788, 2237, 2331, 2469, 2801, 2832, 3182, 3758, 4348) Note I had fighter roll and minuet V but that shouldnt pump my damage by +80% from what you got on "paper".

2nd parse is some JP MNK and fight was longer so there was impetus up and down. His avg Vsmite is 2106. He had chaos roll and minuet V (1214, 1231, 1256, 1407, 1520, 1569, 1647, 1666, 1774, 1865, 1958, 2162, 2241, 2324, 2534, 2536, 2570, 2672, 3227, 3264, 3608)

On all parses I did against Kaggen Pil and Qilin I was never below 1800 and some of them (Kaggen) can lower your avg damage by a lot with Bio+statsdown tp move. Idk what you doing wrong that theory doesn't match reality (maybe you doesn't count temp items that you get when doing VW?) but its far off.

Just means VW NMs have high level correction but low stats. Low stats low level correction both WS will be comparable. High stats and level correction, comparable. VS should still win slightly with after maths, though.

[MarkovChain]

Well you guys need to go on Qilin/Kaggen/Pil and test it with Spharai.

Don't need to fight qilin or parse to know what damage you can do. If VS does 1.8k damage to qilin, so does shijin. Proof above.

[MarkovChain]

Just means VW NMs have high level correction but low stats. Low stats low level correction both WS will be comparable. High stats and level correction, comparable. VS should still win slightly with after maths, though.

With the spreadsheet I find around 4% less damage with spharai and with my simulator I find 3% less. I just need confimation from motenten that I'm using spharai correctly in the spreadsheet by ajusting the ODD from 30 to 24 when using spharai ?

It's not exagerated to claim that spharai is more usuable as you don't have to assume ODD. We just need to know if relic are going to get an improved 3x proc and if the afterglow effect on empy will not suck. Also after reading the info on BG on the plague it seems pretty cool. For instance when farming dynamis mobs you are likely to never see tp moves (right now it's usually doing a TP right at the end). For longer fights it's a good help and paired with counter it's great for tanking. If acc is capped and coutner rate is capped (which it should be with spharai) you will also get a small DPS boost.

[Monchat]

well 4% is neglectible imo if you think the gearsets posted by motenten are not completly optimized, anmd theat level 99 will definately bring more WS gear. For example, shura kabuto +1 has a common augment on HQ3 with WSdmg+3% DEX+5, and can get attack if lucky, which favors shijin fists more than asuran fists. Next im not sure if gorget is better than love torque or that New DEX+6 agi+6 necklace. For the hands there is also the ZNM kote, byakko's can be augmented with DEX+5. For the body, Osode is better han loki, and can be further augmented with DEX and double attack as common HQ3. There will be stats+8 rings @ 99 too.

Obviously im not going to try to augment osode or byakko before the level cap increase since there is a high chance lv 99 gear will blow this out of the water, but just saying that 4% difference with non optimized gearsets is not a lot.

[Atoreis]

I would like to point out that Spharai can only Relic proc on first hit of the attack rounds (At least that was what I remember) and ODD on Veret can proc on every hit with sub hand including multi-attacks. Assuming Denali Jacket+5 we will have around 1.42 hit per hand. I was wondering if you taking this into consideration when calculating boost from aftermath/relicTriple?

[MarkovChain]

The spreadsheet mentions the ODD on one hand and my simulator too. It's equivalent to 15% odd on both hands for vere, and 12% for spharai.



well 4% is neglectible imo if you think the gearsets posted by motenten are not completly optimized


It's optimized for acc and dex I didn't bother checking against optimized STR/ACC. It's listing 150 str/140 dex so it seems quite good if acc is lacking. If I try to stack acc & STR on a VS build I think I would use

aiais bonnet (8) // AF3+2 body( 12) // AF2+2 hands (0) // shura haidate +1 (6) // AF3+2 feet (8)
acc gear on neck, ear2, ring 1, back (0 str)
anuguinius belt on waist (0)
tantra on range (4)
weapon (20)

so ~ +58 str for ~160 total, so about 150 if you are mithra for instance.

[Greatguardian]

I would like to point out that Spharai can only Relic proc on first hit of the attack rounds (At least that was what I remember) and ODD on Veret can proc on every hit with sub hand including multi-attacks. Assuming Denali Jacket+5 we will have around 1.42 hit per hand. I was wondering if you taking this into consideration when calculating boost from aftermath/relicTriple?

Was this changed/proved recently? I was under the impression that Vereth ODD was mainhand only for a long time. If the source is on BG, I can probably searchfunction it if you remember what thread it was posted in.

[Cream_Soda]

Was this changed/proved recently? I was under the impression that Vereth ODD was mainhand only for a long time. If the source is on BG, I can probably searchfunction it if you remember what thread it was posted in.
Seconding this. Unless this is recent, Vereth proccing on both hands is absolutely false.

Though, Gg, for me it always procced on offhand (second hit) and never on the first, for some weird reason.

[Greatguardian]

Seconding this. Unless this is recent, Vereth proccing on both hands is absolutely false.

Though, Gg, for me it always procced on offhand (second hit) and never on the first, for some weird reason.

I honestly can't remember which one it was, ha. I haven't been on MNK in ages, COR is just too boss in Voidwatch. But yeah, I definitely don't remember seeing anything about ODD on both hands.

[Cream_Soda]

I did testing on it a while ago. With 50% ODD rate of 300 tp aftermath, I got 20 procs on the offhand, 0 on main hand, 0 on any da/ta/kick proc.

20 is a small sample size, etc., but when you're looking at a 50% rate, not to get a single proc on anything else, yea. That was conclusive enough for me.

[Monchat]

triple proc is for sure main hand only on spharai, and almost sure it doesnt proc on da/ta. And i narrowed it down to 12% proc rate wit confident interval of +/-0.8%, but stoped testing further , waiting for level cap.

[MarkovChain]

Btw ODD rate is 30% on one hand only or 15% on both hands, since I've tested on this forum on MNK & also PUP.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/14073-Monk-Kick-Attack-Rate-and-Random-other-Facts-and-Formulas?p=222760&viewfull=1#post222760

All this with level 95 vere

[Atoreis]

Nope you misunderstood me. Veret only proc on one hand but can proc on multihit attack.

IE: with Denali Jacket you can lets say quadruple attack on your offhand and all 4 attacks from offhand can be ODD when with relic when main hand proc quadruple attack only first of those 4 hits can be triple damage.
Assuming around 1.42 hit per hand with Denali Jacket we have:

(107+107)*1.42(multiattack)*1.15(ODD)+~26(kick)=375
375*60/106=212dps

and for relic (assuming triple damage has 10% rate on main hand):
(117*1.2(triple damage)+117*0.42+117*1.42)+~26=381
381*60/113=~202dps

~5% higher DPS with Veret AM1 and in many fights like Voidwatch you can easily maintain or at least have AM3 for most of the time with dust wings and its ~12% advantage for Veret then.

[Cream_Soda]

Didn't misunderstand you at all


I got 20 procs on the offhand, 0 on main hand, 0 on any da/ta/kick proc.

[MarkovChain]

Nope you misunderstood me. Veret only proc on one hand but can proc on multihit attack.

IE: with Denali Jacket you can lets say quadruple attack on your offhand and all 4 attacks from offhand can be ODD when with relic when main hand proc quadruple attack only first of those 4 hits can be triple damage.
Assuming around 1.42 hit per hand with Denali Jacket we have:

(107+107)*1.42(multiattack)*1.15(ODD)+~26(kick)=375
375*60/106=212dps

and for relic (assuming triple damage has 10% rate on main hand):
(117*1.2(triple damage)+117*0.42+117*1.42)+~26=381
381*60/113=~202dps

~5% higher DPS with Veret AM1 and in many fights like Voidwatch you can easily maintain or at least have AM3 for most of the time with dust wings and its ~12% advantage for Veret then.

Good for the rest of the world that doesn't touch voidwatch due to it being 100% fail in every aspect. The last fail aspect we saw in this thread is that the dex body is the best WS piece for a WS that is not released yet, and will be the second best only when the ws is finally released. I'm more intersted in killing serious crap like dynamis NMs that drop many goodies including stats neck that are going to perform well for the new multihit WSs, and the Nyzul revamp since it sounds very much 6-man-ish, as well as clearly infinitely better reward as you pointed out (body+5).

And btw for your pathetic voidwatch zergs you need to get a mythic and use a perma AM3 OA2X/3x so stop bothering us with it.

[Atoreis]

Good for the rest of the world that doesn't touch voidwatch due to it being 100% fail in every aspect. The last fail aspect we saw in this thread is that the dex body is the best WS piece for a WS that is not released yet, and will be the second best only when the ws is finally released. I'm more intersted in killing serious crap like dynamis NMs that drop many goodies including stats neck that are going to perform well for the new multihit WSs, and the Nyzul revamp since it sounds very much 6-man-ish, as well as clearly infinitely better reward as you pointed out (body+5).

And btw for your pathetic voidwatch zergs you need to get a mythic and use a perma AM3 OA2X/3x so stop bothering us with it.

VW is for now pretty important end game event or maybe even the only one beside dynamis HQ bosses. When they will add details about Nyzul revamp we can start discuss about it because for now you cant even exclude temp items there.

[Neisan_Quetz]

NQ Nyzul has temps anyway, I doubt they're going to suddenly drop it altogether. Maybe make them harder to get.

[MarkovChain]

Small correction, in my estimation that vere is 3-4% better than spharai, as far as ODD is concerned, I averaged it to 15% and applied it to all hits incluing DA/TA on main or second hand except kicks. No idea about the spread sheet.

[Motenten]

Spreadsheet had ODD applying as (for example) 30% of all hits on one hand, but not kicks. Adjusted to only apply to primary hit of one hand.

[MarkovChain]

This will not affect the account much probably 1% unless you have an exagerated multiattack rate. Anyone knows if cruor is replenishable at will on test server to take advantage of brews for ftp testing ?

[Motenten]

Yeah, pretty minor effect, but will probably have to adjust all the spreadsheets for.

Pretty sure one of the Moogles will give you like 200 million cruor at a time if you ask for it. Don't know which one, though.

[MarkovChain]

For anyone interseted, you can get infinite cruor by talking to the norg "Test GM moogle". Go in aby-misareux buy brews and SA+shinijin on the frogs. You can hold your brew on coffers to make it last longer. So far with +60% crit atma and 4% retrun per WS (447skill, brew caps DEX) the damage ranges from 4478 to 5080 with vere 95.

If the % on dex is 100 then ftp is >=1.05 since 1.6*3.15*1.05*(52+39+12+floor(0.85*floor(999*1.00)))=5037

[Motenten]

Interesting. If fTP is 1.0625, max would be 5094-5095 (depending on if fTP is first or last in multiplication/rounding order), which is pretty close to what you saw. Minimum fTP (with 100% dex) would be 1.0588 in order to get 5080, though more realistically at least 1.059.

[Gokku]

BG users are reporting a -% atk on alot of these new ws , something close to -40%atk on all hits.

[MarkovChain]

Final results
447 skill, brew, SA+ shijin en Ep mobs in abyssea, no gorget, 4% TP return
the WSs range between [4478,5086] (24 ws)

So if DEX=100% => ftp is greater than 1.061

447 skill, brew, SA+ shijin en Ep mobs in abyssea, flame gorget, 4% TP return
the WSs range between [4907,5556] (20 ws)
confirms values above.

[Motenten]

Gorget results require at least 1.159 fTP. Subtracting 100/1024 from that means base fTP has to be at least 1.0614, which is right on top of the 1.061 of your first test.

Closest higher fraction of 1.0614 in units of /1024 would be 63/1024, but I'm inclined to stay with 64/1024 as a more even unit, and the probability that you didn't get -all- the way to the max value in just a couple dozen weaponskills. Thus we can consider 1.0625 fTP as stable, along with the 20/40/60/80/100% dex mod.


Next issue is what Gokku mentioned. A number of the new weaponskills are showing up with attack penalties (but of course not GK, which gets an attack boost). The great sword weaponskill is -40%. I haven't seen values confirmed on any of the others.

If SS has a built-in attack penalty, that lowers its usefulness considerably. It could be tested by getting just enough attack to be at 2.0 cRatio on a particular mob (eg: 654 att vs Greater Colibri) and making sure that the range of damage values produced matches the expected distribution, or if it seems generally lower. If it's lower, then you'd want further testing to refine just how much it was penalized. If you save TP to weaponskill in the last 5-10% you should only land 1-2 hits, which would reduce the amount of variability to account for. Also, don't use a gorget for this test, due to the last issue.


And the final issue to be checked on is the possibility of fTP being carried over across all hits. This is the case for some of the new weaponskills such as Stardiver (polearm), where it's 0.75 fTP on all hits rather than 0.75 on the first hit and 1.0 on the remaining hits.

Since SS's fTP is fairly close to 1.0, its primary interest would be in the value of a gorget or belt. To test this you'd probably want to find mobs with about 6k HP (I know dolls in Altepa-A have about that much HP since that's what's needed to one-shot them using Blizzard V on blm) and do the brewed SA test again, as that should allow one additional hit to land. You'd then need to narrow down the range of possible values of the second hit based on the tests you already did for the first hit.

[MarkovChain]

The "expected distribution is bullshit", just saying. Nobody knows the distributions between min and max. Sometimes it's around the average between max and min sometimes it's concentrated on one side. I've personally conducted interesting tests on chigoes, getting hit by 3 of them with various level of defense including counterstance and stacked defense.

For instance I've got data on chigoes hitting me while counterstance is up and having beserk (40 def only)


counterstance_40 := ["86" = 6, "87" = 10, "88" = 20, "89" = 22, "90" = 41, "91" = 34, "92" = 32, "93" = 38, "94" = 26, "95" = 30, "96" = 35, "97" = 35, "98" = 42, "99" = 21, "100" = 31, "101" = 39, "102" = 29, "103" = 28, "104" = 24, "105" = 28, "106" = 38, "107" = 36, "108" = 48, "109" = 28, "110" = 34, "111" = 30, "112" = 24, "113" = 32, "114" = 32, "115" = 47, "116" = 39, "117" = 25, "118" = 40, "119" = 35, "120" = 38, "121" = 34, "122" = 31, "123" = 30, "124" = 28, "125" = 29, "126" = 32, "127" = 28, "128" = 37, "129" = 29, "130" = 38, "131" = 25, "132" = 27, "133" = 33, "134" = 33, "135" = 42, "136" = 40, "137" = 36, "138" = 34, "139" = 46, "140" = 41, "141" = 38, "142" = 33, "143" = 35, "144" = 18, "145" = 20, "146" = 10, "147" = 16, "148" = 10, "149" = 5, "150" = 2];BarChart(counterstance_40);

which produces the following distribution
http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z315/pchann/counterstance.jpg

Then I've got plenty of intermediate data. For instance if I got 390 defense


def_390:=["15" = 963, "16" = 48, "17" = 52, "18" = 50, "19" = 23, "20" = 106, "21" = 41, "22" = 35, "23" = 57, "4" = 47, "25" = 38, "26" = 45, "27" = 47, "28" = 32, "29" = 43, "30" = 56, "31" = 48, "32" = 49, "33" = 47, "34" = 56, "35" = 45, "36" = 32, "37" = 25, "38" = 10];BarChart(def_390);
which produces this distribution
http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z315/pchann/def390.jpg
So really .. good luck figuring out what the real distribution is it's clearly no uniform even at low defense, then you have intermediatory distributions like above where a fraction of the hit seem to floor at max(pdif). I've ran plenty of test and in this situation the proportion of hit that are = max(pdif) is proportionnal to the invert of def and therefor cratio.

The higher my defense the higher the % of hit towards the max distribution. Once def is low enough it's getting close to something that looks evenly distributed but it only looks so because if you look at the CC graph above it's not uniform nor symetric. So idk how you reversed attack from a few WS samples, but to say anything precise you'll have to know what proportion is in which interval and there doesn't seem to be anything trivial to describe it.

The only thing that seem to come from the countertatnce data above is that the average value is (min+MAX)/2 and there are as much value above and below this value (2K sample size). It's safe to say it's only correct at capped pdif and always incorrect to be safe at low pdif.

[Motenten]

Umm... That looks like a fairly ordinary distribution chart.

For the low defense chart:
Min damage is 86, max damage before accounting for 5% spread is 143. The low-end values (~86-89) have their frequency lowered because a lot of each damage value is moved upwards by the 5% spread, and isn't compensated for by having values below that spread into them. Midrange stuff (90-143) is mostly even, and the high-end (144-150) is taking the highest values' 5% spread.

86 * 1.05 = 90, which is the first value that gets to accumulate the full spread of the values below it, and is also the first value that's mostly even with the rest of the midrange. 143 * 1.05 = 150, which is the highest observed value, where 143 is the last of the mostly even midrange group.

The high defense chart has clear indication of a common phenomenon of the damage being capped. I'll often see values around 15-19 when I guard against mobs that I have relatively high defense on anyway. Somewhere in that range is the minimum damage that SE will allow. I haven't really tried to figure out how it's calculated, though.

The rest of that range is fairly even. 38 is 1.05 * 37, where you get the last bit of fall-off from the damage spread.

Edit: Oh, and the spike at 20 is most likely due to another part of the pDif equation that's a bit complicated to explain. Simple version: random pDif is generated between A and C; valid values are between B and C; values between A and B get reset to a 1.0 (though in this case it looks like 0.5; I never worked out the specifics for cRatios below 1.0). And of course values between B and C that fall below some arbitrary limit (looks like 75% of the 0.5 reset point, so 0.375) are capped at that value.

[MarkovChain]

Anyway since you don't control much, the only and best way to test pdif on WS is a lot of WSs then average the value and divide by the overall ftpx0.95. It's a 5-hit ws anyway so 1 mob = 5 sample. If there is a 40% drop in attack it's fairly easy to check just by examining the average WS. Also for the ftp happening maybe on all hits it will be impossible to test it with a brew like I did earlier. I had to do 20ish WS to get close to cap so I'll need 400 for the first 2 hits to get close to capx2. Again this will be easier to check with full WSs, for instance spamming brews without sneak attack.

[MarkovChain]

PUP99,432skill,D+39
No multiattack
219 DEX / 578 att / 173 str (irrelevant : you cap fstr)

I did sand sweepers ; only registered WS that didn't kill them. I stopped when they started to repop decent challenge.

max crit was : 476 (irrelevant.. I think, but maybe since I don't cap max(crit) I think)
shijin=[2128,2206,1963,2124,1676,1878,1943,2033,1912,2073,1950]

global ftp should be :
0.95*1.0625*(floor(432*0.11)+3+12+39+floor(0.85*219))+4*0.95*(floor(432*0.11)+3+12+39+floor(0.85*219))=1380
mean(shijin)=1989
stddev(shijin)=146
CI : 1989 +/- 86 ( more or less irrelevent since that's only 11 ws so 55 hits total).

1989/1380=1.44 average pdif on the WS hits.

Here we go, /check command returns low eva at 486 att and low def&eva @ 493 (easy preys), make it 490 => they got 392 defense, my cratio is therefore 578/392=1.47

Using masa formulae on the notes from wiki's pdif page
1 handed middle value @ 1.47 cratio is (1.14*cratio - 0.72+1.0888*cratio + 0.31)/2=1.438 (far from cap therefore)

It matches the average pdif found on the WS I did so far so yeah, nothing happened, no def penalty.

[Motenten]

Also for the ftp happening maybe on all hits it will be impossible to test it with a brew like I did earlier. I had to do 20ish WS to get close to cap so I'll need 400 for the first 2 hits to get close to capx2. Again this will be easier to check with full WSs, for instance spamming brews without sneak attack.

To test the fTP carrying over:

SA+WS first hit with gorget maxes at about 5563.

Max damage on a non-crit 1.0 hit should be around 2261
Max damage on a non-crit 1.16 hit (fTP+gorget) should be around 2622

Max damage if fTP carries: 8185
Max damage if fTP does not carry: 7824

That's a 360 point gap in damage, which should be enough to make it fairly easy to check for. If fTP carries, you should see something over 7824 nearly half the time since 2261 would only be about a 2.05 pDif. If you needed 20 weaponskills to get in the 5550 range for the first hit, you could probably expect to see a hit over 7824 within about 50 attempts.

Even better would be to add an elemental belt to the mix (should be easy enough to brew Indrik for a light belt), and take off Sanguine Scythe to drop crit damage to 30% (to prevent killing the mobs on the first hit). That would change values to: 4901 max first crit hit, 2842 for max if fTP carries, and 2261 if fTP does not carry. Total of two hits if fTP does not carry would be 7162, while if it does it would be 7743, giving you a 581 point gap. 7162 would be about 1.9 pDif on the second hit if the first one was near max, and thus would show up well over half the time.

Plus, given that about half the first hit crits should be at 3.0 pDif or higher, it would be very common for the first hit to be at least 4668. 2842 on the second hit after a 3.0 first hit would total 7510, which is still 348 points above the max total if fTP does not carry. You should see a value within that range on the second hit about 40% of the time. Overall, you should expect to see a value above that 7162 limit about 20% of the time if fTP carries across hits. It should be apparent very quickly.

If you don't see a value within that range within 20 weaponskills, we can pretty much dismiss the notion of the fTP carrying over.


It matches the average pdif found on the WS I did so far so yeah, nothing happened, no def penalty.

OK, good to know. Thanks for that testing.

[Zhronne]

I'm feeling a bit lost now... minus the "a bit" part.
Thanks a lot for all your efforts and dedication guys, really hope you'll manage to reach a conclusion about how good/bad this WS is, because atm I really have no clue from the back & forth things going on D:

I have been very rash... just did 5-7 WS on normal mobs, on Kaggen, on Qilin (on both MNK and PUP) and judged the WS as an inferior option to Vsmite, but better than everything else for those who don't have Vsmite. Altough my gear wasn't top-notch (tbh I find it harder to gear for DEX on MNK compare to STR, I had better DEX ws gear on PUP lol)

[MarkovChain]

Sand sweeper, 571 att, 219 dex 173 str, 425 skill, gorget

shijin : [2061,2005,1965,2236,1622,2079,1964,1493,1550,1870,1947,1810,1977,2241,2339,1492]
Mean2 : 1915.68
stddev :263.8
CI : +/- 129

If I assume that the gorget bonus applies to all hits
ftp2=0.95*1.1625*(floor(425*0.11)+3+12+39+floor(0.85*219))+4*0.95*1.1*(floor(425*0.11)+3+12+39+floor(0.85*219))=1511.33

The previous test was done with 578 att 432 skill and no gorget. I extended it a bit and got
[2128,2206,1963,2124,1676,1878,1943,2033,1912,2073,1950,1853,2166,2240,1104,2200,2124,1289,1425,1968,1882,2015,2237,2395]
so Mean1=1949.33 and ftp1=0.95*1.0625*(floor(432*0.11)+3+12+39+floor(0.85*219))+4*0.95*(floor(432*0.11)+3+12+39+floor(0.85*219))=1380.29

the ratio Mean1/Mean2 (assuming the sample size is ok) should be
ftp1*578/(ftp2*571)=0.9244
Here we find mean1/mean2=1.0175

At best this fraction is, with our CIs,
(mean1-123)/(mean2+129)=0.893 and at worst (mean1+123)/(mean2-129)=1.160

so it's still borderline possible.. just need a bit more to infirm it. But I'm confident it's not the case.

[setting]

so whats better here 99 relic using new ws or a 99 vere with smite no clear anwsers are shown lol

[xbobx]

question. I see a lot of testing in abyessa. Isn't it an obvious thing to conclude that the crit ws with all the crit bonus in abyessa will do more for this new WS?

what about outside, wouldnt the new ws be better because it doesn't rely on crits to be very effective? Since the game is moving away from abyessa.

[Greatguardian]

They're not using Abyssea to test "How good it is". They're using Abyssea to narrow down fTP hit distribution and possible Attack penalties that we're seeing in other WS.

For those who just want a "Here's what you use, bro" summary:

95 Vereth w/Smite = 95 Spharai w/Spiral > 90 Vereth w/Smite > 85 Vereth w/Smite > 95 STR Taipans w/Spiral > 95 WoE w/Smite

Throw in whatever AH/R/EX weapons that aren't magians around the Taipan/WoE mark because I don't even bother following those.

[MarkovChain]

Shijin Spiral has an attack boost effect, so it can effectively deal damage to stronger opponents. Thus, we decided that there was no need for adjustment. Also, please keep in mind that its modifiers are DEX and not STR.

mewwwwwwwwwwwwww, going to guestimated this boost after dumbamis.

[Monchat]

so whats better here 99 relic using new ws or a 99 vere with smite no clear anwsers are shown lol

they seem so farm to be on par ( lv 99 relic versus empy). verthragna users have no reason to use shijin from what we know ( because of how impetus boosts VS), but its the best WS for people w/o verethragna. Thats the perfect situation that makes everyone happy if you ask me.

[Motenten]

As a dev has explicitly stated that Shijin gets an attack boost, this needs to be retested.


Elvaan (per Markov's avatar icon) mnk/dnc: 92 str (no merits)

Weapon:
Lvl 95 Vere (17 str)

Total str: 92+17 = 109. fStr cap at 111
Add 2 str merits to get it to 111

No other str or att gear during weaponskill. Dex is fine.

Skill @99: 424 (no merits)

Base attack: 424 + 8 + 111/2 = 487

Greater Colibri lvl 81: 322 def
Greater Colibri lvl 82: 327 def

cRatio at attack bonus of:

00% -- 1.512 / 1.489
10% -- 1.661 / 1.636
20% -- 1.814 / 1.786
25% -- 1.888 / 1.859
30% -- 1.966 / 1.936

If the buff is 30% or higher, need to retest with more defensive mobs to get accurate values.

Weaponskill the mob with around 5% HP left to only land one hit.

pDif Damage range (including 5% damage spread):

00% -- 1.014-1.945 / 1.000-1.915
10% -- 1.183-2.132 / 1.154-2.104
20% -- 1.355-2.292 / 1.324-2.263
25% -- 1.439-2.370 / 1.406-2.340
30% -- 1.527-2.452 / 1.493-2.420


Example:
Base damage @424 = 49
fStr: 12
Weapon: 39

Dex: 88
Byakko's Haidate: 15
(most other dex gear I can think of offhand has str on it, so avoiding; ensure TP gear with str/att on it is not used for ws)
Total: 103

WSC: 87

Base damage: 187
fTP (with gorget): 1.1602

Final base damage: 216

Damage range:

00% -- 219-420 / 216-413
10% -- 255-460 / 249-454
20% -- 292-495 / 285-488
25% -- 310-511 / 303-505
30% -- 329-529 / 322-522


Note that these are still just approximations of the range of values, not exact predictions. A couple dozen weaponskills should get a fairly decent idea of the attack bonus, though.

Edit: fixed errors

[MarkovChain]

PUP/WAR 99/49
591 att => using defender so 443 att
STR 178, DEX 216, H2H 432 D+39

Target= decent challenge sand sweeper for 451 def (stops checking low def @564 att)

shijin=
[1522,1614,1384,1859,1240,1755,1236,1877,1221,1515,1193,1650,1419,1427,1140,
1382,1394,1659,1201,1369,1579,1544,1076,1774,1138,1455,1398,1799,1102,1687,
1453,1540,1574,1415,1763,1347,1355,1140,1487,1372,1909,1493,1479,1438,1396,
1596,1531,1840,1577,1764,1364,1481,1409,1592,1455,1468,1363,1085,1372,1427,
1810,1604,1542,1498,1478,1694,1359,1359,1508,1389,1470,1457,1312,1461] (74 WSs)

mean : M=1473.44
max=1909 / min=1076 / midle=1492 (data is about centered)
std.var=74
CI=+/- 44

my ftp averaged with acc would be
ftp:=0.95*1.0625*(floor(432*0.11)+3+12+39+floor(0.85*216))+4*0.95*(floor(432*0.11)+3+12+39+floor(0.85*216))=1365.86

The % increase of pdif ranges therefore between
[(M-CI)/(ftp*443/451),(M+CI)/(ftp*443/451)]=[1.065451220, 1.131042864]

So there is a boost that is between 6.5% and 13.1% .. make it 10% then, no too bad.

[Motenten]

Interesting. Adding it to the spreadsheet.

Treating it like Berserk and Boost, in that it's an addition based on a multiplier on the base attack, not a multiplier on the cumulative total attack. That will lower its relative value when combined with other attack boosts.

Note that a percentage boost to attack is more valuable the higher the level correction. So the mention of being better against higher level mobs makes sense.

Quick check on spreadsheet damage: with Impetus up, Smite goes from a 20% lead (on Bukhis target) to just a 10% lead. With Impetus down, Shijin goes from tied to having a 9% lead. Overall, generally closes the gap on DPS vs Smite; Smite still has a decent edge due to ODD, though.

[MarkovChain]

err small correction, I made a logical error in my last post but the conclusion will be the same : i have 443/451 cratio (that's not the pdif average) so according to masa's work
pdif average=-0.12311+(443/451)*1.129179=.986039217

so the actual "average pdif" increase lies in the interval (with 95% likelihood as usual with stats)

[(M-CI)/(ftp*pdifavg),(M+CI)/(ftp*pdifavg)]=[1.061369412, 1.126709770]
It still appears to be 10%, and is still good news. It should make Shijin always superior beside high crit rates situations.

edit: this is the increase of average pdif only. If we want the increase of cratio we have to backsolve the average pdif equation : cratio during WS lies in
[1.035851591,1.092909113]
so the cratio increase lies between 5.4% and 11.2%

Also note that I never TPed exactly at 100 TP so if the boost varies with TP it's going to be harder to guess correctly.

[MarkovChain]

Ok I tried it out in a simultation

I compare spharai(99)+ shijin spiral VS verethragna(99)+victory smite

Assumption for spharai:

usual TP gear, capped accuracy

melee attack (base with food and gear) 730
WS attack 730
10% crit rate,3% triple attack rate,21% double attack rate, 150 str on TP and WS
DEX on WS : 200 I know I'm targetting high end setups (consider that 2x march will give you 10 dex also with marches)
TP skill:=426 WS skill=412

mob's def:=500*0.90 (dia) 1 level difference
no boosting
693/1024 haste (maxed)

Kick rate rate:=0.25*1.1
regain:=1/tick
tripleproc on relic 12%
no gorget
counterrate:=80%


Assumption for vere:

usual TP gear, capped accuracy

melee attack (base with food and gear) 700
WS attack 700
10% crit rate [with impetus and VS's natural crit it averages to 39% crit rate on ws, using rancor collar : 15 base 15 boost and rest comes from impetus up/down],3% triple attack rate,21% double attack rate, 160 str on TP and 200 on WS (pushing it near the high end too)

TP skill:=426 WS skill=412

mob's def:=500*0.90 (dia) 1 level difference
no boosting
691/1024 haste (maxed)

Kick rate rate:=0.25*1.1
regain:=1/tick
ODD rate 15%
no gorget
counterrate:=65%

For mob's stats :
110 vit, 500 def + dia2, +1 level difference
10k HP, 4 sec delay between each fight, I don't use any ws under 1k HP remaining, mobs have 4 second delay (for counter calculations)

Here are the results with current knowledge


"DPS spharai,vere, spharai/vere"
[388.9669757, 379.0248486, 1.026230806]
"acc average"
[0.9561073074, 0.9563744842]
"wsacc average"
[0.9498607832, 0.9492771651]
"critical%-melee"
[0.2059280258, 0.2092076548]
"critical%-ws"
[0., 0.3891860806]
"critical%-global"
[0.1623425645, 0.2409357812]
"melee%"
[0.6504023593, 0.6575677767]
"melee dmg p/s"
[268.4073412, 262.8751178]
"WSdmg p/s"
[144.2715757, 136.8937383]
"number of rounds per WS avg"
[6.428989197, 6.809890266]
"avg Ws dmg"
[shijin=2489.513089, victory=2273.579329]
"avg ws damage divided by non crit pdif(include crit dmg+ and critrate)"
[1491.588933, 1590.139342]
"avg punch incl. KA and DA"
[236.8036157, 217.2948220]
"counter damage%"
[0.03030805889, 0.02172873248]
"counter rate"
[0.7591093767, 0.6173330208]
"distribution of the # of rounds to get 100% TPs"
[0., 0., 0.003440445882, 1.153237460, 17.77059107, 40.76515516,25.11387876, 9.461914264, 4.188398816, 1.345902429,0.1857840776, 0.01100942682, 0.0006880891764, 0., 0., 0., 0.,0., 0., 0., 0., 0., 0., 0., 0., 0., 0., 0., 0., 0.]
,[0., 0., 0., .1816027408, 6.874500914, 35.80278715, 37.43592386, 12.12488086, 4.603822673, 2.238479174, .6562169960, .7792174339e-1, .3863888102e-2, 0., 0., 0., 0., 0., 0., 0., 0., 0., 0., 0., 0., 0., 0., 0., 0., 0.]


With lower haste spharai will win even more due to counter. SS is decently higher in damage (9.5%) and spharai's ws damage per second is slightly higher than vere (5.4%) since vere is still a bit less delay. Spharai's stronger base damage and 3x proc helps it surpass vere's dots even though it has 15% ODD rate : spharai melee hits are 9% stronger but it's slower so in the end it's 2.1% better melee damage per second only. Also in practice Shijin has much less variance than vere so it's more reliable in a sense. Note that the counter+ on spharai only slightly helps damage output due to capped haste.

We know have to wait what the afterglow is.

Spharai is ~2.6% better than vere for pure damage not counting the tanking capability (-5/tick TP for 30 second on shijin and more counter).

[MarkovChain]

I continued the data posted in #76 of this thread :

PUP99,432skill,D+39
No multiattack, no gorget
219 DEX / 578 att / 173 str

I did easy preys sand sweepers ; only registered WS that didn't kill them. I stopped when they started to repop decent challenge.

shijin=[2128,2206,1963,2124,1676,1878,1943,2033,1912,2073,1950,1853,2166,2240,1104,2200,2124,1289,1425,1968,1882,2015,2237,2395,2068,2261,2265,2207,1843,2175,1672,2230,1886,2320,2422,1845,1985,2039,1969,1794,1879,2244,2148,2184,2223,2466,2099,1819,2214,1955,2235,1782,1494,1809,1818,2530,2090,1772,2070,2123,1921,1938,2318,1640,2215,2073,1675,2335,2032] 69 WSs

Mean M=2012.550725
IC : +/- 62

def=392
cratio=578/392=1.4744
in this range of cratio the formula for the average pdif is 0.7486*x^2-1.5814*x+2.1349 with x=cratio
The interval in which the avg pdif on WS lies is therefore
[(M-r)/(ftp1),(M+r)/(ftp1)] with ftp1=0.95*1.0625*(floor(432*0.11)+3+12+39+floor(0.85*219))+4*0.95*(floor(432*0.11)+3+12+39+floor(0.85*219))
so [1.413144949, 1.502981102]
Backsolving the pdif equation : cratio lies in
[1.445467775,1.577299846] so the pdif "increase" is between
-2% and 7%... In this case the attack boost is not to obvious.

[Atoreis]

Ok I tried it out in a simultation

I compare spharai(99)+ shijin spiral VS verethragna(99)+victory smite

Assumption for spharai:

usual TP gear, capped accuracy

melee attack (base with food and gear) 730
WS attack 730
10% crit rate,3% triple attack rate,21% double attack rate, 150 str on TP and WS
DEX on WS : 200 I know I'm targetting high end setups (consider that 2x march will give you 10 dex also with marches)
TP skill:=426 WS skill=412

mob's def:=500*0.90 (dia) 1 level difference
no boosting
693/1024 haste (maxed)

Kick rate rate:=0.25*1.1
regain:=1/tick
tripleproc on relic 12%
no gorget
counterrate:=80%


Assumption for vere:

usual TP gear, capped accuracy

melee attack (base with food and gear) 700
WS attack 700
10% crit rate [with impetus and VS's natural crit it averages to 39% crit rate on ws, using rancor collar : 15 base 15 boost and rest comes from impetus up/down],3% triple attack rate,21% double attack rate, 160 str on TP and 200 on WS (pushing it near the high end too)

TP skill:=426 WS skill=412

mob's def:=500*0.90 (dia) 1 level difference
no boosting
691/1024 haste (maxed)

Kick rate rate:=0.25*1.1
regain:=1/tick
ODD rate 15%
no gorget
counterrate:=65%

For mob's stats :
110 vit, 500 def + dia2, +1 level difference
10k HP, 4 sec delay between each fight, I don't use any ws under 1k HP remaining, mobs have 4 second delay (for counter calculations)

Here are the results with current knowledge


With lower haste spharai will win even more due to counter. SS is decently higher in damage (9.5%) and spharai's ws damage per second is slightly higher than vere (5.4%) since vere is still a bit less delay. Spharai's stronger base damage and 3x proc helps it surpass vere's dots even though it has 15% ODD rate : spharai melee hits are 9% stronger but it's slower so in the end it's 2.1% better melee damage per second only. Also in practice Shijin has much less variance than vere so it's more reliable in a sense. Note that the counter+ on spharai only slightly helps damage output due to capped haste.

We know have to wait what the afterglow is.

Spharai is ~2.6% better than vere for pure damage not counting the tanking capability (-5/tick TP for 30 second on shijin and more counter).

You making a lot of false assumptions that in the end favors Spharai a lot. Like there is no way Spharai has better melee damage.

Spharai (51+10+52)*1.24+(51+10+52)*1.52=140+172=312 DPS 312*60/113.2=165.37
Veret (51+13+42)*1.26*1.3+(42+13+52)*1.26=307 DPS 307*60/106.2=173.4

Thats around 5% advantage before kicks which will favor Veret a little more because of delay.
This advantage will raise even more with more QA/TA/DA gear coming in next updates or if you have fighter's roll.

[MarkovChain]

If I exclude your inability to compute fstr I think you forgot spharai's 40 attack boost which is 30 attack more than vere, when you are unlikely to not cap pdif in all seriousness with 160 str before weapon and full AF3... You usually get minuet V from daurdabla too and 7 from curry buns and if your whm doesn't suck, at least 10 from boost str. If my 6 man party can get +18 str just from a bard's minuet and a whm I hope you do anywhere where it matter.

[Atoreis]

If I exclude your inability to compute fstr I think you forgot spharai's 40 attack boost which is 30 attack more than vere, when you are unlikely to not cap pdif in all seriousness with 160 str before weapon and full AF3... You usually get minuet V from daurdabla too and 7 from curry buns and if your whm doesn't suck, at least 10 from boost str. If my 6 man party can get +18 str just from a bard's minuet and a whm I hope you do anywhere where it matter.

But I took STR you posted...


10% crit rate,3% triple attack rate,21% double attack rate, 150 str on TP and WS

and mob you posted....


110 vit, 500 def + dia2, +1 level difference

150-110=40
40/4=10

[MarkovChain]

and you forgot the attack boost too ? dude. While the fstr is indeed 11 and 13 for the example above, it also means that I'm understimated them for tp in both cases. You find vere 4.8% better so what ? You don't account for impetus up/down, nor the attack boost on spharai and plenty of other important things (counter for instance).

[setting]

is there any extra buffs to 99 relic ws or the 2.5dmg proc ? mabe relic ws will own both /prays

[Atoreis]

is there any extra buffs to 99 relic ws or the 2.5dmg proc ? mabe relic ws will own both /prays

None has 99 relic. Update is at Wednesday not to mention we don't even know 1000 of what we need to upg it to 99...

[Konigwolf]

I think you misunderstand the mechanics of DA/TA/doubleDamage/tripleDamage effects Atoreis. For example:

Comparing two weapons with everything equal besides delay:

W1 : DMG 35 Delay 51, I'll skip over the math and simply state that DMG 35 deals 100 damage per round.
W2 : DMG 35 Delay 86, 100 damage per round.

Let's look at the total damage dealt over 1 minute with 0% DA and 20% DA for each weapon (I'll just look at DA since TA/doubleDamage etc. are the same calculations anyway)

W1
Delay 51 => (60/51) = ~1.176 attacks per second, 70.588 attacks per minute
70.588*100 = 7058.8 damage per minute (0% DA)
70.588*1.2*100 = 8470.56 damage per minute (20% DA)
(8470.56 - 7058.8)/7058.8 = 0.2 20% improvement in damage

W2
Delay 86 => (60/86) = ~0.698 attacks per second, 41.860 attacks per minute
40.860*100 = 4086.0 damage per minute (0% DA)
40.860*1.2*100 = 4903.2 damage per minute (20% DA)
(4903.2 - 4086.0)/4086.0 = 0.2 20% improvement in damage

So delay has nothing to do with how much benefit you get from DA/TA/doubleDamage/tripleDamage. You could have had 500 delay and still derived the same benefit from DA/... if your base damage made up for it.

However, you're right that Kick Attacks should slightly favor Verethragna's lower delay, because Spharai can't improve kick damage as much (except maybe for attack +40, which I'm not sure if it applies to kicks).

[Cream_Soda]

This advantage will raise even more with more QA/TA/DA gear coming in next updates or if you have fighter's roll.
http://i33.tinypic.com/28lb4uf.jpg

[MarkovChain]

I think you misunderstand the mechanics of DA/TA/doubleDamage/tripleDamage effects Atoreis. For example:

Comparing two weapons with everything equal besides delay:

W1 : DMG 35 Delay 51, I'll skip over the math and simply state that DMG 35 deals 100 damage per round.
W2 : DMG 35 Delay 86, 100 damage per round.

Let's look at the total damage dealt over 1 minute with 0% DA and 20% DA for each weapon (I'll just look at DA since TA/doubleDamage etc. are the same calculations anyway)

W1
Delay 51 => (60/51) = ~1.176 attacks per second, 70.588 attacks per minute
70.588*100 = 7058.8 damage per minute (0% DA)
70.588*1.2*100 = 8470.56 damage per minute (20% DA)
(8470.56 - 7058.8)/7058.8 = 0.2 20% improvement in damage

W2
Delay 86 => (60/86) = ~0.698 attacks per second, 41.860 attacks per minute
40.860*100 = 4086.0 damage per minute (0% DA)
40.860*1.2*100 = 4903.2 damage per minute (20% DA)
(4903.2 - 4086.0)/4086.0 = 0.2 20% improvement in damage

So delay has nothing to do with how much benefit you get from DA/TA/doubleDamage/tripleDamage. You could have had 500 delay and still derived the same benefit from DA/... if your base damage made up for it.

However, you're right that Kick Attacks should slightly favor Verethragna's lower delay, because Spharai can't improve kick damage as much (except maybe for attack +40, which I'm not sure if it applies to kicks).

His point is that odd can proc on multiattack. Even if that is the case it's a minor upgrade for current gear. If we exclude the fact that fighter's roll is as useless as the job that casts it, the next Nyzul body has a decent increase in mutiattack rate. However it's not +20% DA its da, ta and qa in small amount so even if odd can proc it's going to make vere less reliably better than spharai assuming it is. Nevermind the fact that VS would lose from not equipping AF3+2 this during impetus (losing ~20% cridamage I think)

[Atoreis]

Yeah I need to eat my words sorry everyone. We got shafted once again Veret's ODD can only proc ONCE per attack round like Vegetto said( cant proc on multiattacks ). Ofc all other Empy can proc on multiattacks, THANK YOU SE!

@Konigwolf My idea of Veret getting stronger with QA/TA/DA was based on thinking that Relics can only proc hidden damage on very first hit of the attack round (cant on multiattacks) which is also true for main hand of Spharai and Empy ODD proccing on multiattacks which also true for every empyrean beside Veret. Once again THANK YOU SE!

@MarkovChain VS actually not losing anything from not equipping af3+2 body during punching. Bonus to crit damage from body is storing +1%crit damage every hit even if you equip body only for WS itself.

[Zhronne]

@MarkovChain VS actually not losing anything from not equipping af3+2 body during punching. Bonus to crit damage from body is storing +1%crit damage every hit even if you equip body only for WS itself.
Are you saying that to get the +1%crit damage every hit you only need to wear AF3+2 body when you use the JA? I thought you had to keep it equipped for all the lasting time of Impetus.

Speaking of which, the attack cap has been found, anybody has a rough estimate of the +crit rate and +crit damage caps added by Impetus?

[Atoreis]

Are you saying that to get the +1%crit damage every hit you only need to wear AF3+2 body when you use the JA? I thought you had to keep it equipped for all the lasting time of Impetus.

Speaking of which, the attack cap has been found, anybody has a rough estimate of the +crit rate and +crit damage caps added by Impetus?

Cap is 50% for both (after 50 hits made in a row w/o miss)
You dont need to wear body at any point beside the one you want to take advantage of it's bonus.
You can turn impetus and hits 25 times in a row and wear body for 26th and if it happen to be crit it will receive +26%crit damage.

[Zhronne]

I see, thanks! But swapping in and out during the 3 minutes of impetus to "store" (since I imagine the amount "stored" on the body is effective only while you're under the effect of the Impetus JA?) cridamage and unleash it on WS is some very deep fine-tuning that we're talking about.

Last part of OT concerning this, is there a rule on how the missed hits reset Impetus? Because sometimes I miss hits and it rightfully resets, someother times I clearly see a missed hit both visually and in the log, but when I enter the menu I still see the same attack value. Maybe missed DA/TA hits do not count? Because normal hits, kickattacks and I think missed counters all count toward the reset of Impetus.


Getting back IT, good job there guys! Down from my ignorance I'm still trying to follow the discussion but atm I still am very confused about wether I should or should not get 5/5 Shijin Spiral when the patch comes out.

[Atoreis]

DEX on WS : 200 I know I'm targetting high end setups (consider that 2x march will give you 10 dex also with marches)

What exactly set you think about? Because I have a problem to achieve that high DEX unless with maximum boost-DEX

Best setup I can think about is

Spharai/x/x/Thew*
Shura/gorget/jupiter/brutal
Toci/hachiryu/+8/epona
Atheling/pipilaka/byakko/af2+2

Shura with dex+6 and 3%WSD, Byakko with +5dex
Im not sure about tew vs demonry and atheling vs nifty.
Thats +74dex on top of my 88base which is 162.
172 with marches and close to 200 wit boost dex.

The question is if you gonna boost dex on something harder instead of boost DEX.

[MarkovChain]

@MarkovChain VS actually not losing anything from not equipping af3+2 body during punching. Bonus to crit damage from body is storing +1%crit damage every hit even if you equip body only for WS itself.

It's ok this body doesn't seem to be a clear winner neither for TP or WS while impetus is up anyway. Way too many sacrifices : martial arts, fstr, attack and acc, counter damage, full set.

[Monchat]

since shijin spiral is 100% mod, and 5 hit WS, its better to equip + dex gear compared to + da. So you can remove back and ring and replace with +8 DEX ring and a dex mantle ( cuchulain mantle, aife's mantle come to mind). Think of victory smite on the belt slot ( Black belt versus Tjukurrpa belt): 3% DA is only 0.3% better than 2 STR and inferior to 3 STR.

[MarkovChain]

Spharai/x/x/Thew*
Shura/gorget/jupiter/brutal
Toci/hachiryu/+8/epona
Atheling/pipilaka/byakko/af2+2

Shura with dex+6 and 3%WSD, Byakko with +5dex
Im not sure about tew vs demonry and atheling vs nifty.
Thats +74dex on top of my 88base which is 162.
172 with marches and close to 200 wit boost dex.

The question is if you gonna boost dex on something harder instead of boost DEX.

Oce. Headpiece +1 : auction house, cheap for someone that aimed for vere99/spharai99 (13)
Ocelm. Harness +1 : look above (13)
Moepapa Medal : likely > than gorget (5 hits) (6)
brutal / pixie(lol) : (3)
dex 8 rings : (16) I said I'm pushing it high
hands : ZNM (10)
legs byakko (15)
feet nyzul +5 (10)
Nifty (6)
pililaka (6)
demonry 4

This looks close to optimal beside brutal vs dex4 earrings or random augment like byakko with dex on .

____________________________
+102
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perma double march is +10 dex
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should be 202 dex on elvaans who suck at dex. You should keep boost-STR because your ws build has less dex and it's always a better boost for tp. I said I'm pushing the DEX build high, 200+ str on vere is not completely easy either just more common due to what WS we use now.

[Atoreis]

Oce. Headpiece +1 : auction house, cheap for someone that aimed for vere99/spharai99 (13)
Ocelm. Harness +1 : look above (13)
Moepapa Medal : likely > than gorget (5 hits) (6)
brutal / pixie(lol) : (3)
dex 8 rings : (16) I said I'm pushing it high
hands : ZNM (10)
legs byakko (15)
feet nyzul +5 (10)
Nifty (6)
pililaka (6)
demonry 4

This looks close to optimal beside brutal vs dex4 earrings or random augment like byakko with dex on .

____________________________
+102
______________________________
perma double march is +10 dex
______________________________

should be 202 dex on elvaans who suck at dex. You should keep boost-STR because your ws build has less dex and it's always a better boost for tp. I said I'm pushing the DEX build high, 200+ str on vere is not completely easy either just more common due to what WS we use now.

I checked it closer and best will be:

Oce. Headpiece +1 (13)
Ocelm. Harness +1 (13)
gorget same damage but 7 more acc over Aife
brutal / Pearl : (4) Brutal is better than 4dex
dex 8 ring and Epona (8) Epona is better than 8dex
hands : ZNM (10)
legs byakko (20)
feet nyzul +5 (10)
Atheling 3%DA is +1% and 5dex is +1.5% but ateling has 11 more attack which should beat that 0.5%
pililaka (6)
demonry (4)

Thats +88 so ok fairly close to 200.

[Atoreis]

So the conclusion would be Veret during Impetus and Spharai during Impetus down? Unless you tanking something hard and counterable then Spharai fulltime?

[MarkovChain]

Nope spharai because it's a very consistent ws like asuran was. At least until the modifications on both weapons at 99, if any, become public. And I'd say spharai for high def things if they actually exist.

Notice how the dev said today that shijin is meant to be slightly inferior to VS (with a given weapon) and the gap is all the closer as you can push the mod high ? Superhigh str on vere is not as great as superdex (200+) due to 60% vs 100% mods.


With numbers I gave in the simulation (post) I have

during impetus : shijin ~2550 vs~2600 (infinite duration impetus so it's overestimated for vere) spharai is within 1% of vere

outside impetus : shijin~2400sih vs~1940 ish (spharai is 7.5% better so noticably)

The difference between both weapons is going to be determined by the quality of your dex builds. Can push dex even higher with luck on probably shura kabuto with dex and wsdmg+, osode, byakko, merits because str is not necessarily great anymore with the amount you have on gear. If you manage this you 'll have a clearly better ws that is more consistent with a weapon that doesn't require 100% AM1 to be on par.

We still need to confirm the attack boost (static or %).

[Monchat]

I checked it closer and best will be:

Oce. Headpiece +1 (13)
Ocelm. Harness +1 (13)
gorget same damage but 7 more acc over Aife
brutal / Pearl : (4) Brutal is better than 4dex
dex 8 ring and Epona (8) Epona is better than 8dex
hands : ZNM (10)
legs byakko (20)
feet nyzul +5 (10)
Atheling 3%DA is +1% and 5dex is +1.5% but ateling has 11 more attack which should beat that 0.5%
pililaka (6)
demonry (4)

Thats +88 so ok fairly close to 200.

ok I aggree epona probably goign to be better, as well as atheling. Forgot Victorys mite is actually 2.25 fTP not just 1.0625; I can't see gorget being better than a dex+6 necklace though. Accuracy will typically not be an issue since you are gearing for DEX and 200DEX give 100ACC.

[MarkovChain]

With too high DEX it's slightly better, just need more +DEX on neck slots from the VU to seal the comparison.

[MarkovChain]

This time I fought EM sand sweepers (457 def) because in previous tests I didn't control level beside "easy prey" or "decent challenge"

First I did ~100 WS with vere95, cap fstr, 578 attack, 432 skill, 219 dex, no gorget nor multiattack gear. I won't list it but I find an average of
m=1727.813725 (+/- 51)
The +/- should be smaller because one WS is actually 5 rolls so it's actually 500 pdif rolls (so the error is about 51/sqrt(5)~ +/- 23)
my ftp*WD with 95% accuracy is 1380.290625
My average pdif on Shijin is therefore 1.251775310

Here is the problem : BG wiki's average pdif formulae are wrong, at least for the setup below. I did a sample of 150 hits with the same defense and str and got an average of 121.0064103 +/- 3. My total damage is floor(432*0.11)+3+39+12 so my average pdif is 1.198083270. The range of min pdif to max pdif is correct but the average is not (cratio=478/457). At this point since average pdif formulae are incorrect you cannot reverse the formula like I did previously so I ate a kabob and adapted my gear to have 607 attack which is +5% attack.

I did 165 melee hits and got an average of 127.2848485 and a pdif of 1.260246025 which is about what I found on shijin empirically. So now I think it is 5% attack. It still puts spharai ahead (slightly) and spharai behing ahead is heavily dependent on having a good DEX build for shijin.

[Motenten]

Yes, all the wiki pDif averages are wrong. Based on what I know of the pDif distribution formulas, I'm not actually sure *how* to make an average pDif formula that wouldn't involve a huge amount of manual work.

That's part of the reason I suggested doing the one-hit-kill testing method, since that allows you to see the exact range of values produced, making it far easier to back-calculate to the actual cRatio.


Anyway, after a long bit of wrangling with the math, it looks like a cRatio of roughly 1.315 for the weaponskill, based on average pDif. cRatio of 1.315 would imply an attack of 601, which is a 4% increase in base attack. Given quite a few stages where error can creep in, I would concur on the likelihood of a 5% attack boost.

[Lushan]

I must question what gear you were wearing when you did the test......Because I full meritted the new WS and it pales in comparison to Ascetic's Fury (in most cases, however, I do get wack ascetics fury for low damage, not sure why). My gear are as follows: Tantra crown +2, Tantra Cyclas +2, Tantra Gloves +1, Tantra hose +2, Tantra Gaiters +2, Tantra Tathlum, Black Belt, Eponas, Raja's, Brutal, Kemas. Although i don't have verethragna, or Sapharai (currently using Taurine Cestis). My H2H is capped and fully meritted and my strength is fully meritted. Yet 9 out of 10 times, Ascetic's fury out damaged Shijin Spiral by 1k (i.e. Shijin did 2.8k damage in Aby against Bugards, Ascetics fury did 3.8k against same type of mobs).

[Motenten]

I think you missed the fact that this is not a crit-based weaponskill. Crit weaponskills will always do better than non-crit weaponskills in Abyssea with atma. If you think this will compete with Smite, or even Fury, inside Abyssea, you're completely missing the point.

While there is testing being done in Abyssea because it lends itself to certain types of tests, this weaponskill is only relevant outside Abyssea. Try comparing this with Ascetic's outside Abyssea and get back with us.

[Monchat]

I must question what gear you were wearing when you did the test......Because I full meritted the new WS and it pales in comparison to Ascetic's Fury (in most cases, however, I do get wack ascetics fury for low damage, not sure why). My gear are as follows: Tantra crown +2, Tantra Cyclas +2, Tantra Gloves +1, Tantra hose +2, Tantra Gaiters +2, Tantra Tathlum, Black Belt, Eponas, Raja's, Brutal, Kemas. Although i don't have verethragna, or Sapharai (currently using Taurine Cestis). My H2H is capped and fully meritted and my strength is fully meritted. Yet 9 out of 10 times, Ascetic's fury out damaged Shijin Spiral by 1k (i.e. Shijin did 2.8k damage in Aby against Bugards, Ascetics fury did 3.8k against same type of mobs).

You gear up for dex/da/ta. Should be obvious that Shijin spiral wouldn't beat even ascetic in abyssea. Outside, fo a given weapon and decent build, shijin is better than victory smite when impetus is done, and victory smite> shijin when its up. For non victory smite weapons ( say fire taipans +4 or relic), shijin is like 30%+ superior to asuran fists.

[xbobx]

Well what a horrible test you did. I bet you have RR on so Ascetics automatically gets a 30% boost over Shinjin right away.

I wish people actually would think first before testing

[MarkovChain]

I have a mix of attack & dex beating pure dex build. Right now I'm looking at

Spharai 99 // potestas bomblet
Ocemoleh head+1 // flame gorget // brutal // aesir
Toci's harness // Melee gloves +2// rajas // eponas
atheling // artful+1 // byakko // athos (until denali+5)

For the "ideal" set. Unless you have both toci+head, a well augmented shura kabuto will perform better. That's +66 dex only but a shitload of attack, probably more than a victory smite build.

[Monchat]

I'm using:

spharai 95// thew bomblet/
ocelomeh headpiece+1/light gorget/brutal earring/aesir ear pendant/
ocelomeh harness +1/melee gloves+1/epona's ring/rajas ring
atheling mantle/anguinus belt/byakko's haidate[augment:+6 attack]/melee gaiters+2

Playing with spharai while farming the second melee gaiters+2 upgrade items in Bubu, on Lv96 Dhalmels. Buffs were 2xmarch (+10 dex) minuet V(+5STR), red cury buns, Boost-STR(+13).

Berserk up: ~3k, up to 3.987k.
Berzerk down(but impetus up): ~2.5k

/jawdrop.


athos (until denali+5)
There is an AH feet ( probably the NQ version of athos) with dex+10. Athos's additional stats do nothing better for shijin spiral.

[setting]

so whats the difference with smite being slap on all str you can find and this ws go for attack first ?

[MarkovChain]

You should aim for attack for VS too, but the thing is str naturally gives attack so in pertty much all the slots you can think of str wins. Dex gives crit% but Shijin cannot crit, it also gives accuracy but you don't need generally.

[Cursed]

You should aim for attack for VS too, but the thing is str naturally gives attack so in pertty much all the slots you can think of str wins. Dex gives crit% but Shijin cannot crit, it also gives accuracy but you don't need generally.

Thought DEX only added accuracy to 2Handed weapon users?
Am I wrong?

[Zhronne]

Thought DEX only added accuracy to 2Handed weapon users?
Am I wrong?
Ehr... wut? D:

Maybe I just misunderstood your question but DEX converts to Acc in a 2:1 ratio, similar to what happens with STR>Att.
The ration was changed for 2H weapons from 2:1 to 1:1 first and to 1:0,75 sometimes later, which is still the situation atm.
For 1h weapon users it always stayed 2:1 and never got changed.

[Cursed]

Ehr... wut? D:

Maybe I just misunderstood your question but DEX converts to Acc in a 2:1 ratio, similar to what happens with STR>Att.
The ration was changed for 2H weapons from 2:1 to 1:1 first and to 1:0,75 sometimes later, which is still the situation atm.
For 1h weapon users it always stayed 2:1 and never got changed.

nope you didn't misunderstand. I never knew DEX translated into accuracy for 1 handed users. Might be due to me quiting during the 2handed boost where 1 dex = 1 acc and 1 str = 1 atk.
Good to know lol.