Personal temper findings

[hideka]

so far from what i have seen, temper was pretty good, so i decided to run some parses and see how much varying skill levels effected my double attack rate, so i got on /scholar tempered myself up, took off any and all double attack + gear and haste gear to prevent any chance of attack speed translating to false double/tripple. and went to town on frogs for a few hours.

each test was comprised of 500~550 swings:

@ 376 skill i produced a 5.00% Double attack rate.
@ 392 Skill i produced a 6.20% Double attack rate.
@ 402 Skill i produced a 7.09% double attack rate.
@ 429 skill i produced a 11.63% Double attack rate.

so from how it appears
If Enhancing skill is less then or equal to 376 you will only recieve 5% double attack with no bonus
if your enhancing skill is greater then 376 but lower then 399 you will recieve an extremely small increase in double attack rate
if your enhancing skill is over 400 you will recieve a quite noticeable increase in double attack rates.

392 skill produced roughly a .075 double attack per point of skill increase
and 429 produced a .125 double attack per point of skill. this leads me to belive that the equation is geared to change at precisely 400 enhancing magic skill
i have no way of hitting exactly 400 skill to prove this, but some creative math might support my hypothesis

anyone wana see if they can piece together an equation? ive got the first half of it figured out roughly, i just wana see if anyone else can verify this, because if it continues along this current path, we would have

im missing +10 body, +15 legs +7 neck +3 earring +3 waist +5 feet so

theoretically giving additonal .125* 43 = 5.375 (17.005%) double attack before diminishing returns.

if the B+ skill trend continues, we will recieve 8 skill for 4 levels, giving us a total of 24 more skill, and +5 more skill from the duelist tabard +2, gives us a total of 29 skill, so at 99, theoreticaly RDM will have (.125 *72) =9 (20.63%) giving rdm's temper spells a total of 20-21% double attack before diminishing returns at 99......

now looking at double attack gears:

Khanda : Double attack +10%
Chimeric Flueret : Double attack +4%
Brutal Earring : Double attack +5%
Atheling Mantle: Double attack +3%
Camlecac trousers/ tatsumaki sitagoromo: Double attack +2%
Anguinus belt: 1% double attack
Ferox Visor: +2% double attack
Royal Redingote: +2% double attack

RDM/Dualwield can get currently at level 95,

During TP in capped Haste gear: 41% double attack with no atmas.
During Weaponskills: 46% double attack with no atmas
both of these values are raw values, not factoring in diminishing returns.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

You don't have AF1 legs? That gives you the same 15 as Potent or whatever they're called.

[hideka]

yep, i tossed them ages ago when i quit redmage, back when i was ignorant to how useful enhancing skill actualy is.

[Greatguardian]

diminishing returns.

http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpngb7VwI21qgonjqo1_500.jpg

[ManaKing]

Khanda : Double attack +10%
Chimeric Flueret : Double attack +4%
Brutal Earring : Double attack +5%
Atheling Mantle: Double attack +3%
Camlecac trousers/ tatsumaki sitagoromo: Double attack +2%
Anguinus belt: 1% double attack
Ferox Visor: +2% double attack
Royal Redingote: +2% double attack

RDM/Dualwield can get currently at level 95,

During TP in capped Haste gear: 41% double attack with no atmas.
During Weaponskills: 46% double attack with no atmas
both of these values are raw values, not factoring in diminishing returns.

Only problem you're actually facing is that while dual wielding a Khanda and a Chimeric Fleuret, what WS will you use?

Requiescat may be the solution RDM/NIN is looking for, but otherwise Death Blossom is your best bet. You can drop either sword and have an Almace/Mandau/Excal. I did the same calculation before making my Khanda when Temper came out. I still like my Khanda, but I think I'm going to go for Almace + Mandau instead.

[hideka]

http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpngb7VwI21qgonjqo1_500.jpg

unless im grossly mistaken, diminishing returns refers to the phenomenon where the effect of a stat and or spell looses potency after a certian ammount, or frequency of use.

also im fully aware that 10% DA wouldn't outweigh CDC lol,

[Greatguardian]

10% DA is 10% DA, no matter how much of it you have (well, until 100% DA, because 110% DA and 100% DA are the same thing). Diminishing returns refers to how much total damage that adds. You don't get less double attack, but each point of double attack adds less to your total damage than each previous point.

You don't magically start getting less DA or less Attack as you increase them. Each point just does less for you in terms of your total damage.

[hideka]

i was refering to outside interferences such as tripple, Quadruple, and occasionaly attacksX ammount of times gear/atmas causing diminishing returns on your double attack score.

[Greatguardian]

Then you're pretty clearly misusing the term.

[hideka]

if something causes the potency of any stat to be reduced, then yes it can be clasified as diminishing returns. right now arguing wether it falls under the terms YOU consider to be diminishing returns, and the terms I consider to be diminishing returns (with neither of us being wrong) is pretty damn pointless.

[Neisan_Quetz]

You're using the term wrong period.

[ManaKing]

NQ and GG, do you just go around and double team everyone's posts?

[Neisan_Quetz]

I'm just bored@work, Idk what GG does.

[Greatguardian]

Bored@Library, I live outside walking distance from campus so I just chill here between classes.

I'm not here to throw around insults or anything, though. He's just very clearly misusing a term which has a very specific definition. It's not like FFXI players just magically made up the term "Diminishing returns" and can change it to mean whatever they want it to mean. There is not "Your diminishing returns" and "My diminishing returns". That's like saying the word "Subtraction" has different definitions based on who you ask.

If you don't know what it means or how it works, just don't use the term. It's pretty simple, and it saves you from getting a lot of really weird looks from people who do know what it means. The repeated, convoluted use of "Diminishing returns" in the OP only made it much more confusing to read since it made absolutely no sense in context.

[ManaKing]

Hehehe you guys are funny

[Crimson_Slasher]

Even if the english language is in danger, this is still the redmage board, lets talk redmage and less sidetracking please? I always find someone nitpicking the littlest crap and a conversation, or relevent information gets swallowed in a sea of petty bullcrap. God we need a sub-forum just for information for rdm, and one for discussion...

[hideka]

im always happy to provide what i can, if anyone has any knowledge they would like on redmage, or tactics/techniques please dont ever hesitate to ask.

people tend to look down on redmage, because its not better then any job in the game at anything. what people fail to realize is that redmage is the best at not being the best at anything, if that makes any sense. red mage pretty much has to utilize all of their tools simultaneously to truly shine.

you cant just melee, you cant just enfeeble, you cant just nuke, hell if done properly you can even apply that logic to Healing.

Example:
RDM/DNC DD
with a samurai; you use a death blossom to open up a kasha or fudo light, then the RDM spontaniety Thunder 4 in full magic attack gear with staff to maximize damage, then pop right back into meleeing.

RDM/DNC melee Healer
you can Curing waltz III and Cure IV a target within SECONDS of each other resulting in 600-800 HP healed kknp. this combo is super effective for healing up large damage ammounts, and you can toss on a dagger in times of low MP for Energy drains for decent MP regain.

RDM/SCH
Aoe'ing T1 Enspells and the matching storm spell while equipped with max enhancing skill can result in 30ish damage per swing, which can add up to insane damage over time for such an inexpensive spell, hell one Enspell 1 aoe'd on 2 Dualwielding DPS will do more total damage then ANY nuke in the game.

RDM/NIN
a tried and true classic, with rdm gear its so easy to hit -60% Casting time and -50% recasting speed on utsusemi, paired with slow blind para, you can litterally get away with ONLY using utsusemi NI, and with aquaveil your Ichi casts are virtually uninterruptable

RDM/WAR ( a HUGE favorite of mine)
grants access to berserk, which can give rdm the boost it needs to Hit 999 attack outside of abyssea ( yes outside of abyssea lol) not to mention agressor to help your hit rate on your vorpals/death/CDC's. not to mention it can EASILY hit 40-50% double attack with temper, trait, and gear.

[Neisan_Quetz]

There's... I... I just... I can't even... someone give me words for this.

[cidbahamut]

There's... I... I just... I can't even... someone give me words for this.
Here you go.

http://img.ponibooru.org/_images/c7296204a8e4074c197bd6e3634a7004/827%20-%20angry%20macro%20twilight_sparkle.jpg

[Ketaru]

(1)

Who would actually LIKE that post?!

[ManaKing]

We can't have nice things because we can never agree on anything. SE supposedly has a plan for RDM and it will probably annoy at least half of us.

Guess what? RDM is a wide job. I don't think you can make everyone happy with it, but you certainly can try. Some people will never be happy regardless of what you give them so we'll just have to see how SE deals with it.

By our last post from someone official on the forums, it looks like they have no actual intention of telling us what or how they are changing RDM before hand.

[FrankReynolds]

I think their plan is to mostly ignore red mage, save for the occasional times when they pop in to say "Hey guys, We're not giving you whatever it is your arguing about in here, so you can stop now.". They only do that because people are cursing too much. Not because they care what your talking about.

[saevel]

We can't have nice things because we can never agree on anything. SE supposedly has a plan for RDM and it will probably annoy at least half of us.

Guess what? RDM is a wide job. I don't think you can make everyone happy with it, but you certainly can try. Some people will never be happy regardless of what you give them so we'll just have to see how SE deals with it.

By our last post from someone official on the forums, it looks like they have no actual intention of telling us what or how they are changing RDM before hand.

That's because they don't know themselves.

[hideka]

Who would actually LIKE that post?!

lol, what was wrong with my post? i was just commenting on the current nature of redmage and some various tactics lol. a redmage should never just be "sitting idle" when in an event setting.

[Tamoa]

lol, what was wrong with my post? i was just commenting on the current nature of redmage and some various tactics lol. a redmage should never just be "sitting idle" when in an event setting.

A rdm shouldn't sub war or dnc and melee in an event setting either.

[tyrantsyn]

A rdm shouldn't sub war or dnc and melee in an event setting either.

She never said come /war or /dnc to a event, just that you shouldn't just sit there idle.

[Tamoa]

She never said come /war or /dnc to a event, just that you shouldn't just sit there idle.

The "various tactics" presented were almost all melee-oriented.

[Alkimi]

She never said come /war or /dnc to a event, just that you shouldn't just sit there idle.

Cast nukes then if you're not doing anything else. People seem to forget that RDM has all elemental magic up to Thunder IV.

[tyrantsyn]

The "various tactics" presented were almost all melee-oriented.

Yea but no one shows up on RDM to a event on a sub dd job that's just common sense at this point right. I mean you wouldn't get past 10 post here on the forums thinking that way.


Cast nukes then if you're not doing anything else. People seem to forget that RDM has all elemental magic up to Thunder IV.

Exactly ^^ God knows LOLenfeebling a waste of time.

[Greatguardian]

Yea but no one shows up on RDM to a event on a sub dd job that's just common sense at this point right. I mean you wouldn't get past 10 post here on the forums thinking that way.

This made my day, lol.

[hideka]

A rdm shouldn't sub war or dnc and melee in an event setting either.

yea, most redmages WOULD say that lol.

if im not in a Void watch setting, or something that ABSLOUTELY requires me to be at a distance, then im most definately meleeing. its not that redmage is ANY less effective when meleeing, its that people dont have the practice, macros or gear builds to actualy HANDLE meleeing on redmage whilst preforming another role.

when was the last time ANY of you ever picked up a -50% PDT build subbed warrior and attempted to tank? how do you know its inefective? have you tried it? or you just regurgitating what the gaming society has deemed "acceptable"? i mean have you seriously put forth a Recognizable effort into playing redmage outside of its Social Cookiecutter?

see THIS is why we never get anything good. because people dont dig to find shit, theyre too ready to go " AH EM GEE MY JERB ISUNT AZ GUD AS ANOTUHR! I HAIVE TU NURD RAG IN FURMS CUZ I SUX".

here is a PRIME example
i play WOW on the side; for those of you dont know, there is 3 assigned roles in that game and your job/specialization is not supposed to play outside of its Pre defined role. like Holy paladin isnt supposed to Melee DPS, its supposed to be a healer or offensive caster.
my example is with Protection paladin (tanking spec) being Inferior to Retribution paladin (DPS spec) at tanking instances (dungeons) for levels 10-60. the DD job HANDS DOWN crushes the tanking job. now even tho im more effective as a tank, and im putting out far superior damage per second, and able to solo any boss/trash pull as a DD, people still whine and bitch untill they actualy see it in action first hand, because they've been so ingrained with the thought of " DD's can only dd, Tanks can only tank, Heals can only Heal" that they cant see past the shit to the real truth. i looked past the shit to the truth, and posted/talked ALOT about it, now its become a socialy acceptable way to progress through levels 10-60. go figure.


i just want people to try new play styles. if you do this, it makes your "RDM sucks at everything and needs to be more uber" argument all the more effective; i want people to stop flinging premade ideals and cookie cutter builds/tactics. be creative, use your mind and dont be some thoughtless player.

the more people inform themselves, the more they experiment, the more likely they are to make a compelling enough argument to sway SE's feelings on whatever the current topic is. Knowledge is power baby.

[FrankReynolds]

stuff

I know how to use a core I7 processor to make a nifty Coffee Warmer / Hot Plate. I'm not gonna go on the interwebs and spout off about how people are closed minded because they think it should be used in a computer. Some things, while fun to you, are still dumb. Your welcome to do them, but don't come on the net expecting people to pat you on the back for it.

[cidbahamut]

when was the last time ANY of you ever picked up a -50% PDT build subbed warrior and attempted to tank? how do you know its inefective?

Math. lol @ tanking meaning provoke and a melee weapon

[hideka]

so youve sat down and calculated that no matter what RDM does, that it will never reach a respectable damage mitigation level? really now, cause id love to see your research lol. the point of that post was, incase you missed it, was that people shouldnt always just blindy eat what is fed to them, open your eyes and see for yourself whats on that plate.

@FrankReynolds
lol thats called Innovation. creative thinking. experimenting. discovery. which is EXACTLY the point of my post. with out those 4 things i mentioned, mankind would have died off a long time ago. and yes, you do have every right to call anyone close minded if they tell you your wrong for building a Coffee cup warmer out of a CPU. see im not trying to force people into playing my way, i just want people to not discount it, or belittle it due to ignorance.

[cidbahamut]

I suspect you lack a fundamental understanding of both damage mitigation and what tanking actually entails. Hint: /WAR isn't good for either.

[hideka]

Orly? cause i coulda sworn it gave us access to all of our missing sword skills, fencer, defender, provoke, all of which are great supplements to defense.... when im sitting at 800-900 defense, Haste cap, PDT cap, a decently high shield rate, fairly decent Magic defense, Casting speed and recasting speed caps, yea those are all totaly horrible things for blood tank to have right? just a FYI ive been Main PLD and Off NIN since the game started in north america lol.

last i checked war was the standard for ninja tanking, and /nin is pretty meh these days for paladin when packing an Ochain.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Because Rdm is Ninja and Pld and gets ochain/shadows and DW without sub... Not..

Inside - Shouldn't be on Rdm
Outside- If damage was your goal, shouldn't be subbing War.

Holy shit you did not mention defender please just stop right now.

Actually, mentioning provoke and bloodtanking at all, please step into the Dolorian and go back to the Future.

[Ketaru]

lol, what was wrong with my post? i was just commenting on the current nature of redmage and some various tactics lol. a redmage should never just be "sitting idle" when in an event setting.

Other people are going to do a bang up job of dissecting all the misinformation and soapbox self-righteousness of your responses.

I just don't like you because your diction and keyboarding suck.

[SpankWustler]

Defender is an excellent way to mitigate damage. It very effectively mitigates however much more damage one could do to a monster if one did not just use Defender.

I could type a long post that some folks would hate reading and I'd probably hate myself for typing, but I'll be brief.

What in the buttered, oblong, gnomish Heck are you fighting that Red Mage/Warrior tanks with such effectiveness by utilizing such things as Fencer and Defender and Provoke?

For niche getting-hit-in-the-face activities Blue Mage provides access to the same Sword weaponskills, and even higher defense that comes with no attack penalty.

[FrankReynolds]

The Michael Jordan of Drunk Driving played his final game tonight.
And burdened by his loneliness, he wanted to feel alive.
His laziness built the pyramids, and his solitude was a knife.
The Michael Jordan of Drunk Driving played his final game tonight.


Where is this quote from? A song? The fact that Michael retired, came back, played baseball and sucked, hooked up with his maid, got divorced and somehow took no heat for it... raises so many questions.

EDIT:Also... the fact that your signature ranks on the first page of Google when i search for "The Michael Jordan of Drunk Driving played his final game tonight." is a little bit scary. :P

[TybudX]

its not that redmage is ANY less effective when meleeing, its that people dont have the practice, macros or gear builds to actualy HANDLE meleeing on redmage whilst preforming another role.

You're delusional if you think auto attacking and timing out WSs is any more difficult than timing out more spells. You're also delusional in that you seem to think you have cornered the market on FFXI's rudimentary combat system. Hint: you haven't. Not being able to 'HANDLE' melee RDM isn't why people don't use melee RDM, it's because it sucks.

[SpankWustler]

Where is this quote from? A song? The fact that Michael retired, came back, played baseball and sucked, hooked up with his maid, got divorced and somehow took no heat for it... raises so many questions.

EDIT:Also... the fact that your signature ranks on the first page of Google when i search for "The Michael Jordan of Drunk Driving played his final game tonight." is a little bit scary. :P

A song by Andrew Jackson Jihad titled, aptly enough, "The Michael Jordan of Drunk Driving." It is twenty-eight seconds long, and my signature contains the entirety of it's lyrics.

The meaning is never explained or even hinted at. Given how depressing the rest of the album is, I may be better off never knowing. Other gems are the phrases, "I saw a man drink a bottle of mouthwash on Christmas Eve. No, you can never fall too far." and "The flask is an alcoholic's paintbrush. The flask is an alcoholic's toothbrush. I have to go throw up now."

To everybody else, sorry about the off-topic post!

[tyrantsyn]

Orly? cause i coulda sworn it gave us access to all of our missing sword skills, fencer, defender, provoke, all of which are great supplements to defense.... when im sitting at 800-900 defense, Haste cap, PDT cap, a decently high shield rate, fairly decent Magic defense, Casting speed and recasting speed caps, yea those are all totaly horrible things for blood tank to have right? just a FYI ive been Main PLD and Off NIN since the game started in north america lol.

last i checked war was the standard for ninja tanking, and /nin is pretty meh these days for paladin when packing an Ochain.

If your hitting all those stats at once with /war? You Sir/mam are some kind of sorcerer.

I could maybe hit those kind of defensive number /BLU for cocoon but I don't know about the rest. I'd like to see that gear set.

[Neisan_Quetz]

With Augmented ASA legs and goli body I think I can hit haste/PDT caps with my current inferior dark ring (loldefending ring) during night time.

I'm not even going into cast/recast becasue that is precast swaps, you don't melee in that...

800 defense sounds like inferior food. Decent shield block rate on Rdm is just lol.

[hideka]

PDT Cap gear:
Sashmir -10% PDT
Genbu's Shield -10% pdt
Neck- Twilight torque -5% DT
Ring1 Dark ring (6 PDT 5 MDT)
Ring2 Dark ring (6PDT 4 MDT)
Hands melaco Mitts +3 PDT
Legs Goliard Trews (or tatsumaki) 3-4%
Umbra Cape -6% PDT
Colossus Earring -1~2% PDT
Total 49~50% PDT

spell Damage reduction:
Phalanx: -44 damage

Haste Cap Gear
Zealus tiara: +8%
Ninturias Sash/Goading belt +5~6%
goliard Saio: +4%
Erus's Lesledens: +4% haste
Swap-in Dusk Gloves +1 +4% haste (to cap spell recast timers)
Total 22-26% haste.

Spell casting gear (swapped in on casts)
Warlocks chapeau +1 -10/5%
Duelist tarabard -10/5%
Haste spell -0/15%
Fast cast V -30/15%
Gear haste -0/14%
total: -50% Casting Speed - 54%recasting speed (caps at 50%)

Defense gear:

Head: 0
Body: 42
Neck: 0
Rings: 0
Earrings: 0
Hands : 19
Back: 6
waist: 0
legs: 35
Feet: 22
shield:24
Protect 5 : +60
Taco: 160 defense
Defender: +25% Defense
Vitality: 82 > 41 defense
totaling : 682 defense without swapping in defense pieces

Defensive Atmas.
Atma Of the stronghold: +40 Def +15 regen
Atma of Viscistitude: +40 DEF +15 regen
Atma of the shrieking one: +50 Defense.

regen II:


so revising my previous statment, RDM can sit at 49~50% PDT, 22-26% haste, -50% Casting Speed - 54%recasting speed, and 682 (800+ inside of abyssea) defense at all times with minimal gear swapping.

not to mention that phalanx is pretty boss damage reduction, lets say a 400 damage melee swing hits the redmage, that is reduced to 200 damage by PDT, and to 156 damage by phalanx. with slow II most monsters will never atack more then once in a 6 second window. if your inside of abyssea you have regen atmas that can tic 2 times per enemy swing for 42 X2 = 84 HP negated. so total a rdm can shave a 400 damage attack round down to 74 damage. thats over 75% of the damage negated. im just saying, rdm can hit pretty damn respectable damage mitigation.

OH and a moderate shield block rate cuts down damage like a charm. we will never be the most effective tank, but were certianly able to do it.

[wish12oz]

OH and a moderate shield block rate cuts down damage like a charm. we will never be the most effective tank, but were certianly able to do it.

My problem with you isn't that your gear swaps and things are wrong, all that stuff is nice, and it's true that RDM wouldn't take a lot of damage, but you can't hold hate against any half decent DD since they nerfed the amount of enmity gained by all the spells RDM use to use to maintain hate. And since you can't hold hate, having a tanking set to reduce the amount of damage you take is pretty pointless, because you will never be getting attacked.

Phalanx also reduces physical damage btw, shell is what only reduces magic damage, I'm not sure why you listed phalanx under magic damage reduction.

Casting time reduction does not cap at 50%.

Using defensive atmas will weaken your ability to hold hate, since it will lower your DPS, and in Abyssea, that's all thats required to tank. The same can be said of your PDT sword, Almace is required to increase your DPS if you even want to have a ghost of a chance at tanking, maybe if that new sword WS is good this won't be true, but for now it is.

I'm done picking apart your arguement now as I have grown bored, but this isn't all thats wrong with it.

[Neisan_Quetz]

You're delusional if you think Rdm has anything close to a 'moderate' shield block rate on anything above DC/EM.

Loltacos/defender, pelase return to the 21st century and eat real food, and if you're going to use an inferior sub, use actual damaging JAs. Nice to know you weren't capping haste, unless you think meleeing in 22% haste is cap.

... Oh god you did not mention using such retarded atmas either... I use the regen atmas too... when skilling up on war.

[tyrantsyn]

PDT Cap gear:
Sashmir -10% PDT
Genbu's Shield -10% pdt
Neck- Twilight torque -5% DT
Ring1 Dark ring (6 PDT 5 MDT)
Ring2 Dark ring (6PDT 4 MDT)
Hands melaco Mitts +3 PDT
Legs Goliard Trews (or tatsumaki) 3-4%
Umbra Cape -6% PDT
Colossus Earring -1~2% PDT
Total 49~50% PDT

spell Damage reduction:
Phalanx: -44 damage

Haste Cap Gear
Zealus tiara: +8%
Ninturias Sash/Goading belt +5~6%
goliard Saio: +4%
Erus's Lesledens: +4% haste
Swap-in Dusk Gloves +1 +4% haste (to cap spell recast timers)
Total 22-26% haste.

Spell casting gear (swapped in on casts)
Warlocks chapeau +1 -10/5%
Duelist tarabard -10/5%
Haste spell -0/15%
Fast cast V -30/15%
Gear haste -0/14%
total: -50% Casting Speed - 54%recasting speed (caps at 50%)

Defense gear:

Head: 0
Body: 42
Neck: 0
Rings: 0
Earrings: 0
Hands : 19
Back: 6
waist: 0
legs: 35
Feet: 22
shield:24
Protect 5 : +60
Taco: 160 defense
Defender: +25% Defense
Vitality: 82 > 41 defense
totaling : 682 defense without swapping in defense pieces

Defensive Atmas.
Atma Of the stronghold: +40 Def +15 regen
Atma of Viscistitude: +40 DEF +15 regen
Atma of the shrieking one: +50 Defense.

regen II:


so revising my previous statment, RDM can sit at 49~50% PDT, 22-26% haste, -50% Casting Speed - 54%recasting speed, and 682 (800+ inside of abyssea) defense at all times with minimal gear swapping.

not to mention that phalanx is pretty boss damage reduction, lets say a 400 damage melee swing hits the redmage, that is reduced to 200 damage by PDT, and to 156 damage by phalanx. with slow II most monsters will never atack more then once in a 6 second window. if your inside of abyssea you have regen atmas that can tic 2 times per enemy swing for 42 X2 = 84 HP negated. so total a rdm can shave a 400 damage attack round down to 74 damage. thats over 75% of the damage negated. im just saying, rdm can hit pretty damn respectable damage mitigation.

OH and a moderate shield block rate cuts down damage like a charm. we will never be the most effective tank, but were certianly able to do it.

KK your talking inside abyssea numbers, which is magically fairy land for over powering a job to get something accomplished. Being able to do these sorts of things on RDM is the problem tho. And why the the player base is divide on RDM improvements. I don't envy SE, this job is a train wreck of issues. And as much as the player base can help it, it adds to it problems at the same time.

[hideka]

KK your talking inside abyssea numbers, which is magically fairy land for over powering a job to get something accomplished. Being able to do these sorts of things on RDM is the problem tho. And why the the player base is divide on RDM improvements. I don't envy SE, this job is a train wreck of issues. And as much as the player base can help it, it adds to it problems at the same time.

lol, the only number that was affected was my defense score, and by 110 points... im still able to maintain the levels i spoke of in my prior post while outside of abyssea lol.

and i didnt mean phalanx was magical damage reduction i meant it was "spell" damage reduction, you know like gear damage reduction, i should have worded that better and i apologize.

i can sit at haste cap at all times. it just requires me to drop 3% PDT, which isnt a huge loss, got any more smart ass comments neisan? so far youve done nothing but tell me it wouldnt work, but youve provided ZERO proof as to why it would not, do this then we can talk.

[tyrantsyn]

lol, the only number that was affected was my defense score, and by 110 points... im still able to maintain the levels i spoke of in my prior post while outside of abyssea lol.

and i didnt mean phalanx was magical damage reduction i meant it was "spell" damage reduction, you know like gear damage reduction, i should have worded that better and i apologize.

i can sit at haste cap at all times. it just requires me to drop 3% PDT, which isnt a huge loss, got any more smart ass comments neisan? so far youve done nothing but tell me it wouldnt work, but youve provided ZERO proof as to why it would not, do this then we can talk.

I wouldn't doubt you could pull it off, But Like Wish12oz said you couldn't have any type of DD with you they'd end up dead from lack of support due to hate issues.

[Kitkat]

I love how this topic mutated into some kind of
http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/9333/rdmpowah.jpg

[Neisan_Quetz]

I shouldn't have to explain why it doesn't work, and asking me to explain means you lack any sense of how game mechanics work.

Sheet doesn't even have a tab for Defender because it's so stupid to use, give me a few minutes.
Assumed Target is bukhis since you mention Tanking.

No songs/outside buffs

RR/SS/Apoc Atmas
RDM/NIN TP:
Almace(90)/Shamshir+3(STR)/x/smart grenade
Zelus/Rancor/Brutal/Suppa
ACP(DualWield)/Dusk+1/Rajas/Tyrant's
Atheling/Phasmida/Calmecac/Eurus

WS:

Almace/Sham+3/x/Demonry
MKD (WS/Crit)/Rancor/Brutal/Jupiterpearl
Antares/Warlock's+1/Rajas/Thundersoul
Atheling/Cuch/Tumbler's/Lithe

334 DPS Approximately (Alucinor isn't included)


Your Rdm/War (assumed WS gear as follows)

Shamshir/Genbu's/x/Flame Sachet
MKD/Rancor/Brutal/Aesir
Assault/Heafoc/Rajas/Pyrosoul
Atheling/Anguinus/Tumbler's/Rager

91.4 DPS

Gimp V Bhuj War (not even posting gear weapon is enough)

162 DPS.


Pray tell what you're going to tank in that set when you don't have hate?

[tyrantsyn]

I love how this topic mutated into some kind of
http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/9333/rdmpowah.jpg

ha ha I just pee a little.

[ManaKing]

Because Rdm is Ninja and Pld and gets ochain/shadows and DW without sub... Not..

Inside - Shouldn't be on Rdm
Outside- If damage was your goal, shouldn't be subbing War.

Holy shit you did not mention defender please just stop right now.

Actually, mentioning provoke and bloodtanking at all, please step into the Dolorian and go back to the Future.

I'm pretty sure NQ just said you were a visionary and that you come from the future.


Where is this quote from? A song? The fact that Michael retired, came back, played baseball and sucked, hooked up with his maid, got divorced and somehow took no heat for it... raises so many questions.

EDIT:Also... the fact that your signature ranks on the first page of Google when i search for "The Michael Jordan of Drunk Driving played his final game tonight." is a little bit scary. :P

He's god damn Michael Jordan. Of course he got away with it. He's a Pro.

[Kitkat]

I serious, I came into this thread hoping that somehow someone may have looked at some of the new +enhancing options and tried to calculate out what the total DA% is with temper. Instead I'm seeing the Original Poster going totally anal about their awesomeness when people are just iterating that it is ok for solo, but it isn't going to be a viable tank due to the lack of enmity generation.

/rant

With updated gear options and merits that is going over the 500skill limit. On test server my Rdm currently sits at 477enhancing in gear+merits. However, I'm missing +3 earring, +5belt, no +enhancing body, and I'm using merciful instead of Est. Cape since I've yet to get it, so I could be 497 enhancing. Swap the +11 body for +15 from +2 body and +3 more since hands become +18 and that puts rdm at 504 enhancing (506 if you have +10 neck during lights day). Wish I could get a working parser for what 477 is giving me but...no luck.

[ManaKing]

I serious, I came into this thread hoping that somehow someone may have looked at some of the new +enhancing options and tried to calculate out what the total DA% is with temper. Instead I'm seeing the Original Poster going totally anal about their awesomeness when people are just iterating that it is ok for solo, but it isn't going to be a viable tank due to the lack of enmity generation.

/rant

With updated gear options and merits that is going over the 500skill limit. On test server my Rdm currently sits at 477enhancing in gear+merits. However, I'm missing +3 earring, +5belt, no +enhancing body, and I'm using merciful instead of Est. Cape since I've yet to get it, so I could be 497 enhancing. Swap the +11 body for +15 from +2 body and +3 more since hands become +18 and that puts rdm at 504 enhancing (506 if you have +10 neck during lights day). Wish I could get a working parser for what 477 is giving me but...no luck.

I'm sure it gets close to 15%. I don't think it goes higher yet, but I could be wrong. When I use Khanda, Atheling Mantle, Brutal Earring, and Calmecac Trousers i have 20% Double attack from gear. With Temper on, I double attack around 1/3 of the time. When /NIN with this, I attack 3 times a round more often than not.

[hideka]

my first post was nothing but pure information and values. if you didnt get caught up in the crap storm people have been tossing my way for even suggesting that rdm could be viable at anything other then backline roles, you might have seen that. the awnser to your question is: 17.63 double attack provided SE hasnt programmed in a cap that ive yet to hit, or a sudden drop in the + DA per skill curve. at 501 skill we would have 20-21% double attack rate. all of this information was in the very first post. honestly this thread needed to be locked after someone started nitpicking over the usage of diminishing returns.

[FrankReynolds]

Reading this thread has diminishing returns.

[Kincard]

I think he's onto something. What if you offhanded Thanatos Baselard to make your enfeebles more effective without having to swap weapons and lose TP? I think it's worth checking out.

[FrankReynolds]

I think he's onto something. What if you offhanded Thanatos Baselard to make your enfeebles more effective without having to swap weapons and lose TP? I think it's worth checking out.

No Way! You must off hand Stun daggers.

[Kitkat]

my first post was nothing but pure information and values. if you didnt get caught up in the crap storm people have been tossing my way for even suggesting that rdm could be viable at anything other then backline roles, you might have seen that. the awnser to your question is: 17.63 double attack provided SE hasnt programmed in a cap that ive yet to hit, or a sudden drop in the + DA per skill curve. at 501 skill we would have 20-21% double attack rate. all of this information was in the very first post. honestly this thread needed to be locked after someone started nitpicking over the usage of diminishing returns.

Your information had inaccuracies so I was looking for people to actually back up what you said with solid information. Currently there has been no solid answer derived via reverse equations of known % values to give a working equation to work with. Additionally, without a working parser for test servers let alone the fact that we can't even do the +2 relic trials at the moment, it would be more beneficial for numbers to be ran and verified via community.

In conclusion, your numbers are not substantiated at this time and I'm looking for people to focus on that rather then troll you. Don't jump my case for trying to correct the course of this topic. If you want to argue semantics of what a rdm can/can't do then go make a new topic for it and argue to your hearts content.

[Greatguardian]

Reading this thread has diminishing returns.

Hilariously enough, THIS is using the term correctly.

Edit: Crap. Kitkat may end up giving this thread increasing returns after an inflection point if this goes on, though. Come on Red Mage forums, don't fail me now.

[Tamoa]

I just want to know what kind of mob(s) Hideka is successfully tanking (i.e. not being the only one hitting it) as rdm/war. Both inside and outside abyssea.



Yea but no one shows up on RDM to a event on a sub dd job that's just common sense at this point right. I mean you wouldn't get past 10 post here on the forums thinking that way.

Wishful thinking. :/

[Zerich]

Wait, if that's so, then why can't i be a main tank on my SCH...I mean, I have a form of shadows, damage mitigation, and (lol)Sandstorm with a GAMEBREAKING VIT+?!

[Kitkat]

Hilariously enough, THIS is using the term correctly.

Edit: Crap. Kitkat may end up giving this thread increasing returns after an inflection point if this goes on, though. Come on Red Mage forums, don't fail me now.

Lol, yeah right....as you said, this is the rdm forum.

[Crimson_Slasher]

Frankly im getting a bit tired of the pissing-contest on the rdm forums that seems to follow Great Guardian and Neisan Quetz's posts. At this point, i agree with some of the others that rdm shouldnt be locked to one role, so lets break out our thick glasses, calculators, pocket protecters, and start number crunching like nerds, find out real useful things and stop nitpicking semantics. I want to know what is my potential, not what Joe-blow thinks about my ability to do it. Lets contribute constructive information at this point and not destructive comments. I hope others can get behind my message when i say, grab your staffs, swords, daggers, bows, clubs, pinwheels, shields, and whatever else you can carry and get crackin! If i can find a parser that i like, ill even start getting numbers going myself. Feel free to direct me to one if possible.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Can I even post the link to kparse? w/e, it's easy to find on google, just look up Motenten.

DPS sheets (there isn't one for Rdm, I just modify the Pld Sheet):

https://docs.google.com/#folders/0B0A0wGYYRRdaZjdlNTdkNTEtMDMyYy00OTVmLWI4N2ItNDMwMDI1N2VkYWZk

[Ketaru]

my first post was nothing but pure information and values. if you didnt get caught up in the crap storm people have been tossing my way for even suggesting that rdm could be viable at anything other then backline roles

Actually, I think the course of the thread was:
Informational post that misused "Diminishing Returns".
People call out misuse.
Instead of admitting a mistake was made, OP (that would be you) gets all defensive about how s/he chose to use "Diminishing Returns".
Some arguing about the value of selecting proper words to articulate what you actually mean.

Then...

random OUT OF THE BLUE post from lolWackyland about how GREAT RDM is with war subJob for tanking and dd-ing and using DEFENDER that ppl hav n instant negative lol reaction to orz!

Then the discussion went from there.

[Doombringer]

tanking is very simple. 1)hold hate. 2)don't die.

now, in a.. well at this point, not so recent update... se destroyed the enmity gain on a lot of rdms spells. we don't have our own equivalent of flash, shield bash, sentinel, whathaveyou, to generate hate. plus on top of that.. actual paladins, who used to be the hate monsters of ffxi, are already having problems holding hate off strong DD's.

now, while all that stuff you listed does help with the "don't die" part, just subbing ninja and spamming shadows would help MORE against most mobs. (all that cast/recast time applies to utsusemi to) and at the same time, duel wield and the fact your not using defender is going to lead to a lot more damage. damage that will generate hate. enough hate to more than cancel out the loss of provoke. (though, i would suggest that it's usually not gonna be enough to actually HOLD hate.)

so at this point, subbing warrior isn't really good. even if you find a mob that can tear shadows apart, or you INSIST on going cheap and not using tools, you could sub blu for MORE defense without hurting your attack via defender.



also, i dislike the idea of dnc as a dd sub.. it's not.. you get a better delay reduction from /nin. and while waltzes could be helpful, every point of tp you spend to heal is tp you didn't ws with. you may as well have subbed nin and not taken that damage in the first place. also in your example... what sam? what samurai is going to wait for you to build tp if your spending it 50 points at a time on waltzes?

then as a healer sub, if you find yourself in a situation where you're needed to heal others, but don't have the mp to keep up.. it's probably a "don't melee' situation anyway. how much healing power are you even gaining by subbing dnc? compared to the mage gear and staff you're not wearing?


i hate the typecasting of rdm even more than the next guy. i'm actually a long time "meleerdm" but.... it's not like this isn't controversial enough already, yah know?

this whole post makes me feel like a hypocrite but... i feel like it needs to be said.. so i'm gonna address this next bit at nobody in particular, so please nobody take offense :"if you're gonna suck, do it with a staff on your back. my life is hard enough already." that's a self quote actually, from years ago. after i explained to a friend all the gear he'd need to even TRY to be effective as a hybrid rdm.. and his response was something to the effect of "to hard, i'll just blah blah bare minimum"

my point is, there aren't many.. unconventional.. rdms left. so we all end up representative of one another in the publics mind. wow this post got long...

[Greatguardian]

I liked Doom's post.

Yeah, I went there.

[SpankWustler]

Your information had inaccuracies so I was looking for people to actually back up what you said with solid information. Currently there has been no solid answer derived via reverse equations of known % values to give a working equation to work with. Additionally, without a working parser for test servers let alone the fact that we can't even do the +2 relic trials at the moment, it would be more beneficial for numbers to be ran and verified via community.

In conclusion, your numbers are not substantiated at this time and I'm looking for people to focus on that rather then troll you. Don't jump my case for trying to correct the course of this topic. If you want to argue semantics of what a rdm can/can't do then go make a new topic for it and argue to your hearts content.

Well then, you might like to hear about something Byrthnoth posted some time yesterday.


Temper is weird.
404 Skill = 10% DA rate, recasting every 500 seconds
410 Skill = 12% DA rate, recasting every 500 seconds
435 Skill = 13% DA rate, recasting every 600 seconds
471 Skill = 17% DA rate, recasting every 600 seconds

So it is either non-linear (seems very unlikely) or there is something else going on. All precisions are within 1%.

As I understand it, Byrth's sample sizes were over 5000. THE PLOT THICKENS.

[hideka]

could you link his thread? the fluxiations between our numbers indicates 1 of 3 things
1). my sample size was too small and didnt allow certian tiers to ramp up enough.
2). he has outside DA equipped and Temper provides +% instead of +ammount
3). he just invented numbers to fill in his gaps.

[SpankWustler]

could you link his thread? the fluxiations between our numbers indicates 1 of 3 things
1). my sample size was too small and didnt allow certian tiers to ramp up enough.
2). he has outside DA equipped and Temper provides +% instead of +ammount
3). he just invented numbers to fill in his gaps.

Here's his original post. (http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/103597-Random-Facts-Thread?p=4920117&viewfull=1#post4920117) At least, I assume it's the original post. I only follow 2-ish threads on BG and exactly 0 threads on other community forums, and I think he posts on almost all of them.

Not a lot of information is included, but his sample size is mentioned further down that page. It's safe to assume that he eliminated painfully obvious confounds such as Double Attack equipment given the experience that Byrthnoth has with testing spells and abilities in FFXI, though.

If he just invented numbers, he would probably have invented numbers that made it scale in a linear fashion rather than...however it scales. Also, he would have invented cooler numbers. Like "schlexen", the number with a speech impediment that lurks between six and seven.

[saevel]

Of all our enhancing magic, none of them scale in a purely linear fashion, other then stoneskin. Most are tiered in some fashion. Enspells / Phalanx / Gain-Stat spells all change calculations once you pass a certain skill point, then also each require you to hit the next tier before additional enhancing magic adds to potency. For example, 460 has the same potency enspell as 479 enhancing magic.

[Byrth]

Sorry, those were parses of Hpmedes with a D0 weapon, which lets me afk for a few hours while I collect data. Useful, considering I don't have a controller atm and am severely lacking in keyboard coordination.

What you do is:
* Get a D1 weapon (like Trainee Knife)
* Make sure you have 65 STR or less (at least)
* Go find a high level Hpmede (I use Teleport-Holla, run towards Temenos, and look for a Hpmede with >300 evasion).
* Pull it, and make sure you're swinging quickly enough that you keep its interest through casts, but slowly enough that the parser doesn't blur your attack rounds (~>180 delay)
* Having low STR will give you an fSTR of -1, which lets you turn your D1 weapon into a D0 weapon. This means you can never hit for damage. Put yourself somewhere without agro and afk with the parser running.
* I'm not sure exactly where this method came from, but it was introduced to me in the BG Critical Hit Rate thread where they dissected the dDEX relationship.
* You can figure out how to cast Temper every 500-600 seconds and use Composure once in a while for an indefinite period of time if you really think about it.

The original post for Temper was actually the bgwiki discussion page (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Talk:Temper). I put it in the random fact thread because I wanted some input. I ended up skipping out on the followup with DA gear in favor of confirming whether or not THF gets Triple Attack II (they don't), but I can do it tonight instead of figuring out whether or not WAR gets Double Attack II if people care.

I think I saw your data on wikia, and N=500 explains it. In general (for your higher sample stuff at least), you can reduce what you're measuring to a binomial distribution (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Binomial_Distribution) if you set up your experiment correctly (make sure there are only two states). The linked page has the statistics for determining your 95% confidence interval.

As for why my data is weird . . . I don't know. The parses were almost continuous, I never changed gear, Temper never wore off, etc. Why it jumps 2% in 6 skill and then 1% in 25 skill is a mystery to me. I wanted the story to work out to a nice 1% every 10 skill as it originally appeared it would. If you want work this out faster and with less static about people caring/not caring about Temper and the RDM Meleeing that it represents, I'm Byrthnoth on BG and you can just PM me.

PS. Saeval, those things you're describing are called "piecewise linear." Nonlinear things look like this:
http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Talk:Afflatus_Solace

[saevel]

My point was that none of our spells are a straight 1 skill = ~something something~, their all staggered depending on which developer wrote the code. So while you can make a graph with the tiered points and draw a line through it, the line itself is a lie as it would suggest a difference between 360 and 379 enhancing magic on Enspell potency which in actuality there is none. It's a stair stepped appearance, no reason to think Temper would be any difference. Eventually people will figure out the tiers.

[Byrth]

Ah! I have just the page (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Floor)for this situation!

See, the second equation you're referring to actually is linear (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Category:Enspell). It just involves a floor function. I've never verified that the first equation (nonlinear) is legit. It seems unlikely to me that it is, but it also isn't very relevant content anymore.

[hideka]

well, my guess, is that a base stat could possibly affect how your DA effects Ramp up, thats the only explination for the large diffrence were seeing between our numbers

[hideka]

one thing that bothers me, is that my projected outcome for Max skill DA rates are identical to his max skill outcome rates, but none of our lower Skill tiers match up... this indicates that the .125 DA per point of skill over 400 might be correct and for some reason our %'s arent matching up for some odd reason...


.125* 43 = (5.375 + 11.63) = (17.005%) double attack.

( the 11.63 was the ammount of DA i was pulling down at 429 Skill, the 43 Represented the skill i was missing to cap)

[Byrth]

well, my guess, is that a base stat could possibly affect how your DA effects Ramp up that's the only explanation for the large difference were seeing between our numbers

It could be, but Stoneskin is the only enhancing magic known to be related to a base stat thus far.
* I lost 10 MND and 5 INT going from 471 skill (17%) to 435 skill (13%).
* Then I lost a further 13 MND going from 435 skill (13%) to 410 skill (12%).
So if it's MND related, the effect is pretty weak and/or not there.

Also, your values and mine don't necessarily disagree. The closest to disagreeing we are is at your 402 sample, and my going from 404 to 410 and seeing +2% DA rate shows that area is kind of weird. Also, it's good to keep in mind that the confidence intervals with your sample sizes are a little too large to draw strong conclusions from.

[Kitkat]

Hmm, from my personal testing/comparison of war DA vs Blu DA (or rather a confirmation that war da is in fact 10% within a .05% error range vs blu's 7%) brings me to a conclusion that Hideka's sample is too small. I recall that 10% DA had an error variance of 2-3% in the 500-700 range, and a 1-2% in the 700-1000 range, that didn't display correctly until past the 1000 rounds mark. This would go a long way in explaining the variance of Hideka's numbers to Byrth's numbers since his are >1000 compared to Hideka's 500~550 range.

[Seriha]

Not sure if it'll help much since they're lowish side for samples, but I did these shortly after they seemed to add scaling to Temper on the test server.


Did some plodding on the Test Server curious to see if things had changed. My targets were Glen Crabs in Grauberg[A]. I did 2 sets of 10 mobs, first full-timing Enhancing gear, second in melee gear with no other DA sources on. I was RDM/BLM, so no DA trait there.


Temper: 459 Enhancing full-timed.

Crab 01: 6/34 = 17.6%
Crab 02: 4/34 = 11.7%
Crab 03: 6/30 = 20.0%
Crab 04: 5/39 = 12.8%
Crab 05: 6/35 = 18.1%
Crab 06: 4/41 = 09.7%
Crab 07: 3/35 = 08.5%
Crab 08: 1/35 = 02.8%
Crab 09: 4/31 = 12.9%
Crab 10: 7/45 = 15.5%

Total: 46/359 = 12.8%


Temper: 459 Enhancing on-cast, 392 on-strike.

Crab 01: 5/36 = 13.8%
Crab 02: 5/45 = 11.1%
Crab 03: 6/41 = 14.6%
Crab 04: 4/41 = 09.7%
Crab 05: 5/43 = 11.6%
Crab 06: 8/46 = 17.3%
Crab 07: 7/48 = 14.5%
Crab 08: 7/30 = 23.3%
Crab 09: 6/44 = 13.6%
Crab 10: 4/42 = 09.5%

Total: 57/416 = 13.7%Inclined to say the spell's improved, and that its potency is hopefully determined on-cast as opposed to on-strike. If we want to assume that and combine the two tallies, 13.29% would be the current estimated proc rate at 459 skill.

[SpankWustler]

The original post for Temper was actually the bgwiki discussion page (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Talk:Temper). I put it in the random fact thread because I wanted some input.

Sorry about posting something you tested and dragging you in here to clarify it as a result. This forum doesn't have PM's so I couldn't just ask if there was more or if it was cool or whatever. Thanks for providing so much information about what you were whacking and such.

Also, I am taken greatly aback by seeing neat and sanely recorded statistics on a wiki's talk page rather than seven idiots talking about Bora Axe's low magic accuracy. And rest assured, none of the seven are referring to the additional effect.

[saevel]

I'm just surprised they even allowed someone to post anything at all in the temper section without inspiring a flame war about "death to lolMeleeRDM".

[Neisan_Quetz]

Byrth and Septimus maintain the wiki iirc and neither will let that fly for a second (regardless of personal opinions about Rdms and meleeing).

Actually, it's nice to know it stacks with the trait unlike how Saber dance apparently behaves, but there isn't enough incentive to /war and lose out on dual wield if you came to melee.

[Byrth]

It's all no problem. Because the method lets me collect data while afk, it doesn't cost me anything. I put on a certain amount of enhancing gear and go to work. I come back and put on a different amount of enhancing gear while I continue to work at home. I put on a different amount of enhancing gear before I go to bed. etc.

I just wish my damned display driver wouldn't randomly crash me out of FFXI.

[Ketaru]

I'm just surprised they even allowed someone to post anything at all in the temper section without inspiring a flame war about "death to lolMeleeRDM".

It's a subject worth talking about if people would just let go of all the emotional baggage behind it. In a perfect world, it would just be an accepted fact that meleeing on RDM is just not optimal for higher tier content. For lower tier and probably most mid tier level content, it could possibly be done as long as it's not to detrimental of the task at hand. Even better if you can demonstrate you actually can produce meaningful numbers.

"With all those disclaimers out of the way, let's talk about how good Temper actually is."

It might seem like a shame that such disclaimers need to be said at all, but we don't play in a perfect world. The Vana'diel we play in is a nightmare where I'm joining an EXP party to skillup Axe and get some cruor and merits. And this RDM/DNC (hee haw!) comes along and joins the group with his 2 totally awesome augmented Firmaments. He casts random spells out in the middle of nowhere, aggroing dolls, and dying an unmourned death in a style reminiscent of the Mass Production Evas disembowling Unit 2. Thus, the emotional baggage...

But that doesn't mean that, just because some of us believe backline is more optimal, we can't be bothered to find out what the options are for frontlining as well.

[saevel]

It's a subject worth talking about if people would just let go of all the emotional baggage behind it. In a perfect world, it would just be an accepted fact that meleeing on RDM is just not optimal for higher tier content. For lower tier and probably most mid tier level content, it could possibly be done as long as it's not to detrimental of the task at hand. Even better if you can demonstrate you actually can produce meaningful numbers.

And thus you've proven that your part of the problem. You have reached a conclusion without actually quantifying it. I've demonstrated, multiple times over the past four years that RDM could melee perfectly fine in "high tier content". And WTF is that supposed to mean, you can define anything as "high tier content". You can define old style XP parties, dynamis, einerjar, limbus, ground kings, sky NMs, sea boss's, nyzule isle or even salvage as "high tier content". You can define anything in abyssea, or anything in voidwatch as "high tier content". The only thing that escapes that label is soloing bunnies somewhere.

Define a specify exactly what you mean, exactly which situations and be specific in which duties your assigned and expected to perform. Words like "supporting" and "enfeebling" get thrown around a lot yet are never actually quantified. "Supporting" ~ALWAYS~ ends up being "Cure IV, Cure IV, haste, Cure IV Cure IV". And "enfeebling" is ... para... ohh wait ... slow II ... sure why not .. umm ... silen ... damn ... bin.. damn it again ... GRAVITY II ... ohh sh!t. So exactly what else, other then playing WHM-2 are you supposed to be doing with your time again?

[Ketaru]

Hey, no need to get all mad that I'm dealing in absolutes when it seems to be you who doesn't let your definitions evolve along with the game. No. I would not consider a lot of that old content to be higher tier content anymore. And I'm sure, if you have a really competent group backing you up, they can allow you to indulge in your desire to melee. But don't trick yourself into thinking it's anything more than an indulgence.

I'm not going to bother defining what "Supporting" and "enfeebling" mean. But it certainly doesn't mean getting up in the mob's face and swinging your sword. Because if that's what it is, the sad fact is that you're not needed there on RDM. Better to be WHM-2 than yet another frontliner that needs to be supported.

[saevel]

Hey, no need to get all mad that I'm dealing in absolutes when it seems to be you who doesn't let your definitions evolve along with the game. No. I would not consider a lot of that old content to be higher tier content anymore. And I'm sure, if you have a really competent group backing you up, they can allow you to indulge in your desire to melee. But don't trick yourself into thinking it's anything more than an indulgence.

I'm not going to bother defining what "Supporting" and "enfeebling" mean. But it certainly doesn't mean getting up in the mob's face and swinging your sword. Because if that's what it is, the sad fact is that you're not needed there on RDM. Better to be WHM-2 than yet another frontliner that needs to be supported.

Ohh I'm not angry at all, I've had this conversation in various forms too many times over the years to let ignorance make me angry. What I can tell you is that I've dis-proven each and every point you've made and will attempt to make, and all before abyssea.

If you've followed any of the threads on this forum then you'd know that not only am I proponent of our melee aspect, I'm also a big proponent of all our other aspects to and include those moments where you need to focus on curing. There is no golden "go to" rule for anything, no such thing as "high tier content". Everything is on a case by case situational determination, which required the RDM in question be both experienced and have good situational awareness.

RDM is the second most survivable job, only being beat out by PLD. Between us a WAR / SAM / DRG / DRK / MNK, we would have the least chance of dieing, and least support requirements. Before SE nerfed the enmity from sleep / bind / blind / dispel we even tanked HNMs, turned out to be one of the best tanks. Thus anything that would sideline a RDM would also sideline a WAR, DRK, MNK, DRG, SAM and all the other "real" DDs. At least on the sidelines we can continue to contribute something, rather then sitting with our GAXEs shoved where the sun don't shine.

So we're hard to kill and can contribute a significant amount of damage (don't even try to argue this, I'll destroy you) while being capable of supporting ourselves (we don't need haste / refresh or really much healing) and if / when things go south, we can continue to support even while weakened, where as the "real" DD's would either be dead or sitting on the side weakened.

Pretty much the only area RDM sucks is hitting weakness's, and that's 100% SE's fault for not giving us anything unique.

All in all, that looks to be a pretty useful job to have around. Doesn't specialize in any one task but can quickly perform several different tasks as the situation warrants.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Rdm tanking was only good on Nms you didn't viably melee. The moment you could feasibly melee it, Rdm wasn't a good tank for it.

War has fairly good survivability with /Sam and Bravura if necessary, but Ukon just does more damage (ignoring the -def and -evasion effects). Unless the -DT on Bravura is the difference between surviving and dying, there's no real need for it.

Sam and Mnk both have fairly good damage mitigation on top of damage potential.

Drg has issues with their pet dying from AoEs, no damage mitigation other than SJ, better off using jumps to shed hate etc.

Would like to know this significant damage you're adding, it's apparently too early in the morning and I've overlooked it.

[saevel]

Now for what you really think.

Your one of the "RDM melee is fine as a toy" group. For yourself it can never be more, no matter what someone else does you'll just write it off to some outside circumstance. There are a few fallacies that could be used here, but I think moving the goalposts is a good one to use.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts

Might even be a no true scotsman argument.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

[Neisan_Quetz]

Or just post proof? I think Rdm melee is a toy because that's what it is right now. As of 95 cap Rdm melee at best is behind a Blu that never uses a single spell. If your only jobs are all mages notBlu, Rdm is probably your best melee (Bar whm shenanigans). If you leveled a single other job, it's a better melee/DD than Rdm.

[saevel]

Rdm tanking was only good on Nms you didn't viably melee. The moment you could feasibly melee it, Rdm wasn't a good tank for it.

War has fairly good survivability with /Sam and Bravura if necessary, but Ukon just does more damage (ignoring the -def and -evasion effects). Unless the -DT on Bravura is the difference between surviving and dying, there's no real need for it.

Sam and Mnk both have fairly good damage mitigation on top of damage potential.

Drg has issues with their pet dying from AoEs, no damage mitigation other than SJ, better off using jumps to shed hate etc.

Would like to know this significant damage you're adding, it's apparently too early in the morning and I've overlooked it.

RDM tanking worked on Dark Ix'ion, Khimera and JoL (at 75) amongst other things. It was actually the harder fights that we excelled in due to our ability to build large amounts of hate and simply not die. I'm really laughing at the idea of using TE for mitigation on anything remotely dangerous. It's not the melee hits that will kill you, its the ridiculous aoe's that will do you in. This is why TE is a great damage mitigation tool on ash and trash but seriously lacking on big fights. MNK's don't really tank per se, they just hit stuff really fast and have the white mage spam Cure V on them with infinite MP. The moment that's no longer a viable strategy you'll get a flattened monk. Counter is right up there with TE, won't do anything for aoe's or magic damage.

As for damage, there is absolutely NOTHING special about RDM. No hidden JT's, no special RDM only formula's that imply suckage. You use the same numbers as anyone else, so all you need to do is manipulate and control those numbers. You'll find its not nearly as hard as you guys make it out to be. Haste, Acc, Atk, DA, fSTR, crit hit and a decent WS are all you need, and it's only the last one that a RDM has issues with. I used to spam Pizza+1, these days I don't even need to do that anymore, just spam Bison Steak or maybe even Dragon Steak. If the NM happens to be evasive, I still pack plenty of Pizza +1.

Honestly the only thing holding back damage is the support load that is required, and that shifts from fight to fight, moment to moment. There is nothing being within melee distance does to stop you from hitting a macro that is,

/equip cure item 1
/equip cure item 2
/equip cure item 3
/equip cure item 4
/ma "Cure IV" <stal>

Cool thing about that macro is that it'll put a cursor on the player list that you can use to choose the target while your still swinging. Makes support healing while engaged an absolute breeze.

Reapply enfeebles as they wear off and continue to gain TP -> spam WS.

Keep stoneskin up, keep blinks up, keep self buffs up. Keep any assigned party buffs up.

Honestly out of all those, it's SS that will take the most time from you, as super monsters spam AoE's your skin will need to constantly be reapplied.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Sam could Tank Dark Ixion, Mnk can tank Pil.


I have best melee Rdm set ~30% (probably closer to 25%) behind Blu not using a single spell.

[saevel]

Or just post proof? I think Rdm melee is a toy because that's what it is right now. As of 95 cap Rdm melee at best is behind a Blu that never uses a single spell. If your only jobs are all mages notBlu, Rdm is probably your best melee (Bar whm shenanigans). If you leveled a single other job, it's a better melee/DD than Rdm.

I realize you don't know me. My fully geared and active jobs are,

SAM
RDM
WAR
BLU

Mostly geared jobs
PLD
DRK

I'm an extremely aggressive player, I hit sh!t, and I hit sh!t really hard and really fast. I tanked as a SAM/WAR back in 03/04, and again as a RDM/WAR (all lower level stuff). Later as a BLU/WAR. Also did main healing on BLU, that was interesting and extremely effective.

I like to play ALL aspects of jobs, I had a SAM/RNG build back when we did that.

The reason I enjoy RDM so much is that you can do just about anything at once, and your ridiculously hard to kill. I sh!t you not, during VWNM's I've say there and spamming shadows -> skin -> cure IV while this thing tries to kill me after I hit it with a couple CDC's upside it's head. Things like that simply aren't possible with the pure "DD" jobs without a WHM spamming cure V on them. And that is without a PDT / MDT set, I got rid of most of mine after they nerfed RDM tanking. In the process of rebuilding it now.

I've done so many parses that I've just stopped. No matter how many I do, the fallacy of the moving goal post is used. Here is a little tidbit, a dead DD deals no damage.

It's like everyone does damage comparisons vs a wall with infinite HP that doesn't fight back.

[saevel]

Sam could Tank Dark Ixion, Mnk can tank Pil.


I have best melee Rdm set ~30% (probably closer to 25%) behind Blu not using a single spell.

And now I'm calling BS on you. Your using very stretched and obfuscated circumstances to define "tank". What you really mean is that a SAM with a couple WHM's spamming cure can hold Dark Ixion, until it WS's and one shoted the SAM. MNK is similiar with Pil, except MNK has enough HP that it won't be one shoted, but it'll need a ton of healers.

Both of those scenarios are examples of a red herring.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignoratio_elenchi#Red_herring

Technically nearly any job can tank anything for a period of time, provided they got enough HP to not be one shoted and have enough people casting cure. The difference comes in how effectively a job can tank while reducing damage intake to a manageable amount. The less damage the tank takes the more the healers can focus on other melee's, otherwise you just got dead melees or only one or two people on the monster.

The fact that your using rare scenarios off BG, something you yourself have never done, just goes to show your running out of arguments. Your no longer arguing what a RDM is capable of and are now attempting to discredit by implying other jobs are ~more~ capable or just as capable. Neither the 75 SAM in DI nor the 95 MNK on Pil is capable of self supporting, or other supporting as the RDM is. Thus by definition a RDM has more capability then either of those two in either of those situations. Remember we have MDB along with Skin / Phalanx / Aquaveil to go with that PDT / MDT those two previously mentioned players were using.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Uh what? I have killed Dark Ixion, and a Prd or Rdm tank wasn't needed for it, thanks for assuming I haven't though.

Tanking isn't hard.


Rdm/Nin with offhand mandau and Dia 3 always active vs Blu/war with Dia 2/Triple attack/dualwield 2 set, used optimal sets for TP/WS versus a level 101 NM (560 defense 100 AGI 430 evasion). Rdm is a terrible melee DD.

[saevel]

Uh what? I have killed Dark Ixion, and a Prd or Rdm tank wasn't needed for it, thanks for assuming I haven't though.

Tanking isn't hard.


Rdm/Nin with offhand mandau and Dia 3 always active vs Blu/war with Dia 2/Triple attack/dualwield 2 set, used optimal sets for TP/WS versus a level 101 NM (560 defense 100 AGI 430 evasion). Rdm is a terrible melee DD.

I was talking about you being a SAM on DI or the MNK on Pil. DI will one shot anything without high MDT at 75, Lightening Spear ~will~ do that, anything else can be dealt with.

And which mobs are using those stats, or need I break out screen shots again. I've seen very few NM's with 500+ defense. Also laughing at you using /WAR on BLU, talk about cherry picking your stats to support your claim.

And stop using excel sheets to calculate damage vs a target with infinite HP that can't fight back. You'll lose to the MNK/WAR ~EVERY~ single time.

[Neisan_Quetz]

So I Should use blu/nin so Rdm sucks less compared to Blu on harder mobs? Is that what you're trying to argue?

Blu now 12% above Rdm. Still not casting a single spell.

[saevel]

And BTW NQ, you do realize that BLU's with Almace are encouraged to NOT cast damage spells and focus on spamming CDC, unless there is a need for large burst damage. So your attempt to allude to a RDM vs BLU with a BLU being gimped by not casting is dishonest, and you know it. Your also removing all external considerations other then damage in an attempt to misdirect. A RDM isn't a DD, its' a hybrid, meaning DD + support. To discount the support and self sustaining portion is to only compare 30% of the job.

I'm remembering why I put you on Ignore list. You can't actually make a logical argument and rely on misdirections and false dichotomy's in an attempt to prove a point.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Post proof or shut up, I'm tired of your rhetoric now. Or I'll happily point you back to Byrth's analysis in the Blu forum where we had to sit you down and teach you math.

[saevel]

Post proof or shut up, I'm tired of your rhetoric now.

And while I know I'm gonna regret clicking show on your post, for everyone's sake I'll ask.
What would you define as "proof"?

50%, 60%, 70%, 80% of some theoretical DD that doesn't exist.
3000 , 4000, 5000 HP cured.

What exactly is your metric by which you objectively evaluate the utility and viability of a hybrid RDM? Are you comparing it vs a non-hybrid /WHM RDM? Are you comparing it to a DD BLU, SAM, MNK, WAR?

I think your answer will ultimately be that there is no metric. No amount of parses will demonstrate anything. I can show me be beating emp WAR's, SAMs and MNKs. That was mostly due to them dieing and me not dieing, skin, blinks and my own cure source help tremendously when the NM in question is spamming high damage aoes. Or I can dial the way-back machine to when we were 75 and I used to parse almost every dynamis run. That was back when I was trying to prove that I could keep up with or at least hold my own. I eventually stopped saving parses cause it didn't matter, people just get angry when you show them their idea's and beliefs are wrong.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Congratulations, you beat a bunch of gimps. Doesn't make you a DD.

Especially a Ukon war loooooooool, that's a good laugh. Just stop while you're still behind.

I'm still waiting for your proof of adding actual significant damage on Rdm.

EDIT: If you want to talk about 75 my rdm/drk nuking outdamaged a Sam. Does that mean Rdm was a good damage dealer? No, it means that Sam wasn't worth half a shit.

[saevel]

Congratulations, you beat a bunch of gimps. Doesn't make you a DD.

Especially a Ukon war loooooooool, that's a good laugh. Just stop while you're still behind.

I'm still waiting for your proof of adding actual significant damage on Rdm.

This is why I stopped saving parses. No matter what I do, you'll just immediately discount it.

In an even fight vs a brick wall with infinite HP, a Ukon WAR will crush anything a RDM could do. In a real fight with NM's spamming aoe's, that story can change really fast as now the WAR must worry about not dieing, and once dead they deal no damage.

Not only that, but again if we're talking Abyssea / Voidwatch then we're talking procing things for drops. Getting loot takes precidence to measuring e-peen's. So that Ukon WAR is now wielding a staff, or a GSWD, or a Polearm or even a Club trying to proc red instead of spamming Ukon. If the RDM is going full tilt (he shouldn't be) then the WAR will lose. (This isn't to say RDM is even remotely as useful as a WAR is inside abyssea, but that's a different discussion entirely).

So now we're left with Voidwatch as the only relevant "content" at 95. An event where the NM's spam high damage aoe moves so much, that now melees are Tping in -PDT/MDT sets instead of full DD gear. Again we see dealing damage taking a backseat to staying alive.

Tell me again, whats your accepted standard / objective measurement? I must of missed it.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I stopped saving parses because I realized there's no point in using gimps as a measuring bar. Now I just use it check accuracy etc. in VW.

I can proc red in Abyssea and still outdamage my rdm by a mile and a half no contest.

War in full PDT gear with ukko's is still a better dd than rdm.

[saevel]

I stopped saving parses because I realized there's no point in using gimps as a measuring bar. Now I just use it check accuracy etc. in VW.

I can proc red in Abyssea and still outdamage my rdm by a mile and a half no contest.

War in full PDT gear with ukko's is still a better dd than rdm.

This a faulty argument by several standards

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_%28logic%29
I never argued who was the better DD, RDM isn't a full DD

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

I never argued that RDM was the best DD

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasty_generalization

Your sample size in the prescribed debate is effectively 0

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well

Or also depending on what you were trying to do

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_attribution

Your statement that anything that doesn't out-damage a RDM must therefor be gimp.

And ultimately,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignoratio_elenchi

A job being able to out damage another job on an infinite hit-point target has no bearing to the usefulness of a Hybrid Red Mage.

Again that objective measurement.

[Kitkat]

Get back on topic or I'm going to report the thread which will most likely end up getting it locked based on the fact it already took 7 pages to get back on topic and couldn't even stay there for 2 pages before once again going off topic because someone thinks they have something to prove.

For the last time this isn't t: http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/9333/rdmpowah.jpg topic, it is about reversing known numbers of temper findings to find a formula to go by, and hopefully, once 99 cap is live finding the cap of temper if it is within our enhancing skill range.

[saevel]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/17483-Personal-temper-findings?p=238301&viewfull=1#post238301

The points at which it veered off topic. You guys wanted to bring it up. At least my post was relevant as it related to the posting at BG about the temper findings.

If (s)he had left the whole


In a perfect world, it would just be an accepted fact that meleeing on RDM is just not optimal for higher tier content

out of it there wouldn't of been a sidebar.

Anyway this is about Temper, which is a melee related spell that can ONLY be cast on a Red Mage. Thus the melee viability of said Red Mage is related to the thread.

Now if you guys would just stop trying to prove anything by yelling louder and insulting people we might actually get somewhere.

[Qeepel]

Hello everyone,

I'd like to remind everyone to please refrain from making inflammatory comments towards others and off topic discussions. Such language and actions is considered a violation of the forum guidelines, and can result in the termination of your account.

Thank you.

-SQUARE ENIX MODERATOR

[Crimson_Slasher]

The moderators are quick! ill have to remember that next time a topic is usurped by unrelated posts! I hope they start watching here more often!

[scaevola]

Orly? cause i coulda sworn it gave us access to all of our missing sword skills, fencer, defender, provoke, all of which are great supplements to defense.... when im sitting at 800-900 defense, Haste cap, PDT cap, a decently high shield rate, fairly decent Magic defense, Casting speed and recasting speed caps, yea those are all totaly horrible things for blood tank to have right? just a FYI ive been Main PLD and Off NIN since the game started in north america lol.

last i checked war was the standard for ninja tanking, and /nin is pretty meh these days for paladin when packing an Ochain.

Why wouldn't you use /BLU over /WAR for this?

I mean, Cocoon's more useful than Defender for jobs that DON'T have native MP pools or fast cast.

[Greatguardian]

All of this "SAM can't tank" and "MNK can't tank Pil" stuff is hurting my head...

Anything could tank Khimaira at 75. Corsair could tank Khimaira at 75 (seen it, not even kidding). Red Mage could easily tank anything, sure, but it becomes a waste when other jobs are able to deal damage and thus tank while doing more damage.

Red mage can deal damage, sure. It wont' deal as much damage as literally any pure melee on the planet. But it can deal damage. For reference, let's list the jobs that can deal more damage on "High tier content" (Let's say Kaggen, Akvan, and Pil) than RDM:

Monk - duh
Warrior - duh
Samurai - duh
Corsair - duh
Dark Knight - duh
Ranger - duh
Dragoon - duh
Thief - hm
Ninja - oh
Dancer - oh dear
Puppetmaster - uh oh
Blue Mage - ... this won't end well
Beastmaster - ... shiiiiiiit

And the jobs that don't do as much damage as Red Mage?

Black Mage
White Mage
Bard
Summoner
Paladin
Scholar

Okay. You will outdamage the ... well, hopefully nonexistant Paladins. And the Bards. And the White Mages. And pretty much anything that's reliant on nuke damage. Omedato-daysuuuuuuuuu~~~~

[saevel]

Why wouldn't you use /BLU over /WAR for this?

I mean, Cocoon's more useful than Defender for jobs that DON'T have native MP pools or fast cast.

And both are equally useless in reducing damage. Monsters Ratio floor being what it is and all. /WAR is used for another VE hate tool (1800 VE voke), 10% DA, Berserk and access to Vorpal Blade (RDM).

[Neisan_Quetz]

Can we please stop counting voke? Please? Please. I'm tired of people trying to use voke as an example for anything but hate reset > mage just pulled hate and you're too far away to melee.

cocoon is better than defender for the simple fact it doesn't reduce your attack.

[scaevola]

And both are equally useless in reducing damage. Monsters Ratio floor being what it is and all. /WAR is used for another VE hate tool (1800 VE voke), 10% DA, Berserk and access to Vorpal Blade (RDM).

Provoke is useless and while my RDM and BLU are level 1 and my sword skill is exactly as high as it needs to be to use Seraph Blade, there's no reason I can see why RDM/WAR would have access to Vorpal Blade and RDM/BLU wouldn't.

As for Berserk, if you can bloodtank something while under the effect of a defense-reducing ability like Berserk and be fine, /MNK is going to beat pretty much everything, Vorpal Blade or not.

That I am a level 1 RDM and am telling you this is unsettling.

[saevel]

Provoke is useless and while my RDM and BLU are level 1 and my sword skill is exactly as high as it needs to be to use Seraph Blade, there's no reason I can see why RDM/WAR would have access to Vorpal Blade and RDM/BLU wouldn't.

As for Berserk, if you can bloodtank something while under the effect of a defense-reducing ability like Berserk and be fine, /MNK is going to beat pretty much everything, Vorpal Blade or not.

That I am a level 1 RDM and am telling you this is unsettling.

Provoke is exactly 1800 VE, its not useless but it's not the greatest for tanking. Melee damage is CE, a different stack of hate. VE degrades at the rate of 60 units per second, CE is only degraded whenever your smacked around. Interesting note is that the amount of hate from voke is match's exactly with the rate of decay, thus spamming voke every 30s will prevent any VE generated from flash or other abilities from degrading.

Defender is useless as monsters attack/defense ratio can't go under 1.0 if the monster is above your level. This is just SE doing their usually and screwing over the players.

That being said, REDUCING your defense to 50 is a very bad idea, incredibly bad. Monster ration caps higher then ours, something around 4.0. And while their attack isn't high (they don't eat food, and rarely use buffs), artificially putting your defense at rock bottom is auto-capping their ratio which would result in them doing ridiculous damage. Only reason MNK can get away with it is they have WHM's spamming Cure V on them for when the NM's use physical damage aoe's.

Plus if we're talking -RDM- here, then /WAR will beat out /BLU for offense and cocoon will be useless in general. Better idea would be to look at /DRK, LR, SE and Attack Bonus II for the melee side, Stun, Drain, Aspir and Absorb-TP for the mage side.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Time spent voking is time spent not meleeing. Spamming voke every 30 seconds lower your damage dealing and conversely, your tanking. That's why we call Voke useless.

Defender is useless because reducing your damage output is counterproductive. If you're not dying with Zerk up there's no reason not to fulltime it.

[tyrantsyn]

Wow, what happen here? I thought this part of the discussion was dead after last week. Yesterday when I check the thread it was back on track and we were done with this nonsense. Sadness.

[saevel]

Time spent voking is time spent not meleeing. Spamming voke every 30 seconds lower your damage dealing and conversely, your tanking. That's why we call Voke useless.

Defender is useless because reducing your damage output is counterproductive. If you're not dying with Zerk up there's no reason not to fulltime it.

JA's are instant use that insert 60 delay units (1 second) into your attack round. That's not going to be noticeable by anything other then a parser, and even then barely.

[Greatguardian]

120 delay or 2.033898 seconds

[Byrth]

I am pretty much done with this (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Temper). It should be possible to get 21% Double Attack from Temper at 99 with a perfect enhancing magic set. You can almost get 22% (2 skill off) but you can't yet (outside of Abyssea), I think. The data is on the talk page.

[saevel]

I am pretty much done with this (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Temper). It should be possible to get 21% Double Attack from Temper at 99 with a perfect enhancing magic set. You can almost get 22% (2 skill off) but you can't yet (outside of Abyssea), I think. The data is on the talk page.

Have they done any testing over at BG on the new sword WS yet? I know they've been doing the others but I haven't seen anyone post any actual testing results from the sword. Asking because if it's like Shun then we can try to see if SE is willing to fix it.

[SpankWustler]

Have they done any testing over at BG on the new sword WS yet? I know they've been doing the others but I haven't seen anyone post any actual testing results from the sword. Asking because if it's like Shun then we can try to see if SE is willing to fix it.

To paraphrase and condense stuff Prothescar learned and posted while testing it:

The attack penalty isn't as steep as that of Blade: Shun or Resolution, but there's definitely one present. It seems the penalty is about 20% at 100% TP and it never quite goes away even at 300% TP. That's right. The weaponskill never has an actual attack bonus.

I have my doubts that the Development Bros will consider adjusting it, since they probably consider the ability to use Requiscat well on elementals or slimes to be mind-blowing. They also consider White-Out and toner to be a hidden sixth food group. Can't hurt to ask, though!

[saevel]

To paraphrase and condense stuff Prothescar learned and posted while testing it:

The attack penalty isn't as steep as that of Blade: Shun or Resolution, but there's definitely one present. It seems the penalty is about 20% at 100% TP and it never quite goes away even at 300% TP. That's right. The weaponskill never has an actual attack bonus.

I have my doubts that the Development Bros will consider adjusting it, since they probably consider the ability to use Requiscat well on elementals or slimes to be mind-blowing. They also consider White-Out and toner to be a hidden sixth food group. Can't hurt to ask, though!

Ele's and slimes? Thought it was a physical damage WS. If it's using attack/defense, accuracy and fSTR then it pretty much sounds like a physical WS.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Doesn't seem as heavily affected by damage resistance if at all, still not very useful due to the attack penalty.

Of course they're probably going to respond with 'balance'.

[scaevola]

Unless I missed something it seems like it'd be pretty great for Pil if it's really straight non-type damage like Twilight Scythe, to the extent that people will still be doing Pil.

[Greatguardian]

2 Cors can still knock out Pil's shield instantly without ever getting into melee range, and while still contributing god-tier buffs and A-tier damage, so tossing a sword user (any of them) in to WS down the shield is extremely redundant and inefficient.

I've never lost a Pil parse on COR yet.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Ele's and slimes? Thought it was a physical damage WS. If it's using attack/defense, accuracy and fSTR then it pretty much sounds like a physical WS.

Isn't it called as a non-elemental WS, as opposed to Physical.

[Seriha]

I guess I want to say it's disingenuous to say the WS has an ATK bonus when it starts with a penalty that never goes away. Hearing things like DRKs need 1200+ ATK to cap out their own has me shaking my head at the thought of respectably breaking 600 with food and some ATK/ACC/MND hybrid thing going on, Berserk, LR, and atmas aside. I'm not usually one to whine about the differences between one and two-handers, but just seems like this penalty should be there.

[Anoobulchandra]

Look look... all this arguing is pretty much null and void. First off you are talking about rdm melee.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Look look... all this arguing is pretty much null and void. First off you are talking about rdm melee.

Yes... very good! There I was thinking we were talking about RDM Curing.... /rolleyes

[Anoobulchandra]

Yes... very good! There I was thinking we were talking about RDM Curing.... /rolleyes

With all the scratching noises of rdms doing on mobs IDK how you could think of that. I mean hey rdms are supposed to be enhancing masters, and enfeeblement masters. So we should be talking about how se can make adjustments towards that. Instead of wasting time figuring out what tempers DA% is. Though with current rate of things yeah RDM is gonna turn into a lolmelee that won't even be used for anything but killing bunnies in dunes like it did in valkurm... and where it should have ended.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

With all the scratching noises of rdms doing on mobs IDK how you could think of that. I mean hey rdms are supposed to be enhancing masters, and enfeeblement masters. So we should be talking about how se can make adjustments towards that. Instead of wasting time figuring out what tempers DA% is. Though with current rate of things yeah RDM is gonna turn into a lolmelee that won't even be used for anything but killing bunnies in dunes like it did in valkurm... and where it should have ended.

Lord knows why I'm entertaining a troll but....

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/17366-Saboteur-and-Dia-III
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/15937-How-about-an-Enfeebling-Magic-thread
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/17618-One-of-the-biggest-problem-RDM-still-faces...
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/17416-To-Developers-Accession
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/17417-To-Developers-Regen-spells

etcetera... etcetera...

Do try doing some reading to save yourself the bother of looking like an idiot.

As Temper is the only thing outside of Gravity II, people will test what the hell they god damn want to without the fear or care of some fool that joined simply to post most his post count trolling.... that is so old and boring now, seriously! Right up there with playground bullying, aren't you cool!

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQBXuJxKQ9FoicGHEOMIBlkPckT-8sq_tNBzpNX84L7AdIWJOZRf65iTaQ4

[Anoobulchandra]

All I had to do was read the dia3 thread and laughed. Only one guy saw the flaw from the beginning. No one even told that girl with blind2 1/5 and bio3 2/5 that blind2 is a waste of a merit and bio3 isn't worth jack unless 5/5. Slow2 5/5 is a must anything after that is dependent on how you use rdm. Except for blind2 which the exception for the case. You can call me a troll but you don't know what trolling is then. If anything what I did was "flamebaiting" look it up. You call me an idiot but you respond to my messages, and use 3rd grade retorts. So who's the idiot either way I'm bored. Go back to your lolOFF and the clanging of your swords.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

All I had to do was read the dia3 thread and laughed. Only one guy saw the flaw from the beginning. No one even told that girl with blind2 1/5 and bio3 2/5 that blind2 is a waste of a merit and bio3 isn't worth jack unless 5/5. Slow2 5/5 is a must anything after that is dependent on how you use rdm. Except for blind2 which the exception for the case. You can call me a troll but you don't know what trolling is then. If anything what I did was "flamebaiting" look it up. You call me an idiot but you respond to my messages, and use 3rd grade retorts. So who's the idiot either way I'm bored. Go back to your lolOFF and the clanging of your swords.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=troll

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=flamebait

More or less the same, but whatever!

[Doombringer]

Look look... all this arguing is pretty much null and void. First off you are talking about rdm melee.

wow, i thought the internet was out of you guys. it's been what, weeks? since some random jagoff wandered into the rdm boards to flame it up?

i mean granted we've still been arguing with each other.. but this attitude, like you think you're enlightening us? like we haven't heard it a hundred times before? congratulations.. your the latest in 8 years worth of annoyances who think they are showing me the light.

but no, go on brother.. bring us the good news....

i mean it must be news because apparently we've never heard it before.. otherwise why would you bother? just to be a douche? naw.. who would do that?

[saevel]

Isn't it called as a non-elemental WS, as opposed to Physical.

Damage is either magical or physical. As in it use's fSTR and pDiff or fINT (fAGI ect..) and MDiff. Damage is then divided into subtypes of slashing / piercing / blunt / h2h. Now I can see them making it a physical WS that has no damage subtype similar twilight scythe. Needs testing and I have absolutely no time to get on the server.

[Asymptotic]

1.) Damage is not necessarily magical or physical. There's a special category called "no attribute (http://wiki.ffo.jp/html/10612.html)" basically, which is not affected by weaknesses or resitances to any of the elemental or physical attributes. What we call "non-elemental damage" is really this "no attribute" damage. Atonement is a good example of this type of damage. Coincidentally, it's also a sword WS

2.) Temper will matter when it can either be used with Accession or cast on other players. It should have been able to be cast on other players to start with, but apparently RDMs would rather screw around with melee than have an actual job to do.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

1.) Damage is not necessarily magical or physical. There's a special category called "no attribute (http://wiki.ffo.jp/html/10612.html)" basically, which is not affected by weaknesses or resitances to any of the elemental or physical attributes. What we call "non-elemental damage" is really this "no attribute" damage. Atonement is a good example of this type of damage. Coincidentally, it's also a sword WS

2.) Temper will matter when it can either be used with Accession or cast on other players. It should have been able to be cast on other players to start with, but apparently RDMs would rather screw around with melee than have an actual job to do.

2) Wrong! RDM's just for the most part hate cycles. If they wanted to make Temper Accessionable like people said from the introduction, it'd be perfect.

Consider this: You're a BRD, would you like it if they made your songs only single-cast... I think not.

[cidbahamut]

Consider this: You're a BRD, would you like it if they made your songs only single-cast... I think not.

Didn't Bards complain until they were blue in the mouth trying to get the ability to make songs single target via a JA?

Your point still stands, regardless.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Didn't Bards complain until they were blue in the mouth trying to get the ability to make songs single target via a JA?

Your point still stands, regardless.

Yeah, Yet we complain for AoE version and get told tough. :(

[Greatguardian]

2) Wrong! RDM's just for the most part hate cycles. If they wanted to make Temper Accessionable like people said from the introduction, it'd be perfect.

Consider this: You're a BRD, would you like it if they made your songs only single-cast... I think not.

Cycles are white noise. They don't bother me in the slightest. I'd love having single target castable Temper if it meant having more reason to actually break out my pimp hat.

What I do wish for is an update to yarnball that includes variables for AF3+2 and Composure, as it's essentially worthless when none of our buffs still last for lol3Minutes.

[saevel]

1.) Damage is not necessarily magical or physical. There's a special category called "no attribute (http://wiki.ffo.jp/html/10612.html)" basically, which is not affected by weaknesses or resitances to any of the elemental or physical attributes. What we call "non-elemental damage" is really this "no attribute" damage. Atonement is a good example of this type of damage. Coincidentally, it's also a sword WS

2.) Temper will matter when it can either be used with Accession or cast on other players. It should have been able to be cast on other players to start with, but apparently RDMs would rather screw around with melee than have an actual job to do.


Umm no, not exactly. Your talking about Spirits Within and Atonement, both are considered magical and are blocked via any ability that blocks magic damage.

I'm talking about it using the physical WS calculation but have it's subtype set to none so as to bypass resistance to Slashing / Piercing / Blunt that some monsters have.

[ManaKing]

2.) Temper will matter when it can either be used with Accession or cast on other players. It should have been able to be cast on other players to start with, but apparently RDMs would rather screw around with melee than have an actual job to do.

RDMs don't have actual jobs. Just the ability to try their best and then be told they are inferior because their job is inferior. Temper is as irrelevant as RDM itself. At the end of the day COR has had AOE double attack buffs forever and RDM still doesn't know what it is good at because Aby trashed it and VW really doesn't have a place for it either that people respect.

[saevel]

RDMs don't have actual jobs. Just the ability to try their best and then be told they are inferior because their job is inferior. Temper is as irrelevant as RDM itself. At the end of the day COR has had AOE double attack buffs forever and RDM still doesn't know what it is good at because Aby trashed it and VW really doesn't have a place for it either that people respect.

Gotta love people say things like "do you job" but can't actually say what RDM's "job" is other then "anything not holding a sword". They will attempt to throw the "enfeebling" work out there but we've gone over that to death already. It takes a few seconds to apply the enfeebles that will stick (if that), and then your free for a couple of minutes.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Get back to helping cure/buff the DDs who are apparently dropping like flies and/or nuking.

[saevel]

Get back to helping cure/buff the DDs who are apparently dropping like flies and/or nuking.

Meleeing > Nuking for damage.

And with Cure IV spamming lolz.

Might as well come WHM instead if that's what your going to do.

[ManaKing]

Meleeing > Nuking for damage.

And with Cure IV spamming lolz.

Might as well come WHM instead if that's what your going to do.

Pretty much. RDM works fine for spot healing, but you really can't have a RDM heal unless you are talking about 2 RDMs instead of 1 WHM.

RDM are still tied to Tier IVs for Nukes. I haven't gotten my Twilight Cloak to drop yet to try out Impact on my RDM, but it's the only thing we could possibly have that would compete with an Almace. With Spontaneity and Convert, you could actually get Impact off relatively quickly without worry to hard about your MP reserves. Casting Impact back to back doesn't make a lot of sense because you'd want to ride the timer on the Stat Down Debuff unless Impact can do significantly more damage outside of aby than I've seen.

[Neisan_Quetz]

If you're free for a couple of minutes on the only event you'd use Rdm in because it has unique procs, well it's not my fault your DD are dying while you're too busy to cure them now is it?

[saevel]

Pretty much. RDM works fine for spot healing, but you really can't have a RDM heal unless you are talking about 2 RDMs instead of 1 WHM.

RDM are still tied to Tier IVs for Nukes. I haven't gotten my Twilight Cloak to drop yet to try out Impact on my RDM, but it's the only thing we could possibly have that would compete with an Almace. With Spontaneity and Convert, you could actually get Impact off relatively quickly without worry to hard about your MP reserves. Casting Impact back to back doesn't make a lot of sense because you'd want to ride the timer on the Stat Down Debuff unless Impact can do significantly more damage outside of aby than I've seen.

Yep that is the sad part. One of our best debuffs is from a cloak. RDM/SCH using the 50% cost strategem could do pretty well in keeping the -20% stat effect up. Does damage as well, just at a ridiculous MP cost. But since there isn't much else to toss our MP out on mind as well do that.

[ManaKing]

Yep that is the sad part. One of our best debuffs is from a cloak. RDM/SCH using the 50% cost strategem could do pretty well in keeping the -20% stat effect up. Does damage as well, just at a ridiculous MP cost. But since there isn't much else to toss our MP out on mind as well do that.

Funny thing on Spells costing a ton of MP. You can get more TP from Occult Acumen. /SCH would be a better use than /DRK, but /DRK sounds like more fun.

I'm assuming that you can use Spontaneity on Impact, otherwise RDM just sucks as usual.

[saevel]

Funny thing on Spells costing a ton of MP. You can get more TP from Occult Acumen. /SCH would be a better use than /DRK, but /DRK sounds like more fun.

I'm assuming that you can use Spontaneity on Impact, otherwise RDM just sucks as usual.

Ohh it works, so do strategems and the BLM JA. Once just for sh!ts me and a BLM times our JA's so that he got to cast a free impact every 10min. Wasn't particularly game breaking but still was funny.