AF3 Body...

[Zerich]

yeah, anyone ever find out what they enhanced about our addenda?

[vavant]

its sposed to be related to a % chance at 0 enmity

[Raksha]

its sposed to be related to a % chance at 0 enmity

People keep saying this, but still no one has done any testing on it.

I'm betting it does the same thing the "enhances enmity douse" and "enhances soul jump" (or whichever jump it is) does.

[Delvish]

Anything involving enmity is just really hard to test without extensive work. Personally, I don't really care what the bonus is because everything else on the piece is more than powerful enough for me to use it 90% of the time (though it would be nice to know more than 'it does something to enmity')

[Raksha]

Anything involving enmity is just really hard to test without extensive work. Personally, I don't really care what the bonus is because everything else on the piece is more than powerful enough for me to use it 90% of the time (though it would be nice to know more than 'it does something to enmity')

Well if it were significant enough I could eliminate my -enmity body piece and save inventory space.

Of course if it were significant enough ppl would probably have already figured it out.

[Jamesy]

the scholar empyrean has a % chance of a 0% enmity gain not sure the actual % but it is rather frequent from what i have seen its around 20% that's a rough estimate

[Zhronne]

People keep saying this, but still no one has done any testing on it.

I'm betting it does the same thing the "enhances enmity douse" and "enhances soul jump" (or whichever jump it is) does.
Raksha you already said you "didn't believe it" in another thread, until me or someone else linked the discussion with the tests (was it on BG? On FFXIAH? I don't remember).

I'm aware it wasn't a particularly extensive set, but there also were very little doubts hinting at something else.
It's just a very small chance of generating 0 enmity while casting a spell, period.
Not worth to take off your -enmity gearset, you can't "control" when the proc happens, and anyway it's a very low percentage.

[Raksha]

the scholar empyrean has a % chance of a 0% enmity gain not sure the actual % but it is rather frequent from what i have seen its around 20% that's a rough estimate

You have a link to testing?


Raksha you already said you "didn't believe it" in another thread, until me or someone else linked the discussion with the tests (was it on BG? On FFXIAH? I don't remember).

I'm aware it wasn't a particularly extensive set, but there also were very little doubts hinting at something else.
It's just a very small chance of generating 0 enmity while casting a spell, period.
Not worth to take off your -enmity gearset, you can't "control" when the proc happens, and anyway it's a very low percentage.


No one ever provided the testing, I think you may have an inaccurate memory of that other thread.

I have no idea what the body does, and occasional 0 enmity sounds like a pretty good guess, but there are lots of good guesses that don't turn out to be accurate, so until I see some tests I'm going to withhold judgement.

If it was a significant proc rate, it probably would be worth losing the -5 enm from body slot (for example if it was more than a 5% proc rate) because you'd end up less enmity over time that way.

This question keep coming up, though, so an official response would be nice.

/holdingmybreath

[Zhronne]

No one ever provided the testing, I think you may have an inaccurate memory of that other thread.
Depending on your definition of "inaccurate", HERE (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11525-Thoughts-on-the-FFXI-Job-Adjustment-Manifesto?p=198883&viewfull=1#post198883) is the link.
Discussion went on for a few pages.
The original test was pretty moot, more a collection of people reporting strange occurencies with their enmity.
Also, there was a more detailed test on FFXIAH (I think) that you linked in another thread that ruled out several other possibilities that were previously hypothesyzed (most of which were pretty complicated anyway).
With those ruled out, the "occasional no enmity proc" made much more sense.

Back then I never experienced it, it happened to me two times not long ago. Similar situation both times. Ninja had just voked and was back tanking, no huge spikes enmity aside from casting a few debuffs, I cast a seriously damaging spell on the target for lots of damage and he stays sticked to the tank.
That wouldn't have been possible without an enmity reduction (zero?) proc. It happened only those two times to me, I figure the proc rate must be pretty low, but then again I don't play SCH that often... and when I do I'm in situations where tanks are holding hate so good that I wouldn't notice if one of my spells generates zero enmity.
I imagine these to be the most common situations among us? That's probably why a lot of people have never noticed it.



If it was a significant proc rate, it probably would be worth losing the -5 enm from body slot (for example if it was more than a 5% proc rate) because you'd end up less enmity over time that way.
Supposing that's the real effect of the body (can't be 100% sure, but it definitely makes a lot of sense to me), I doubt it has a high %, and it's gonna be so random that a fixed -enmity is probably going to be much more reliable if you wanna keep your enmity generation down, no?
I think at least D:

This reminds me the fact I wish they could fix Augeo and Minuo... /sigh

[Raksha]

Supposing that's the real effect of the body (can't be 100% sure, but it definitely makes a lot of sense to me), I doubt it has a high %, and it's gonna be so random that a fixed -enmity is probably going to be much more reliable if you wanna keep your enmity generation down, no?
I think at least D:



Think of it like WSing in double attack gear. Sure not ALL of your WSes are gonna double attack, but on average your total damage is going to go up.




Depending on your definition of "inaccurate", HERE is the link.
Discussion went on for a few pages.
The original test was pretty moot, more a collection of people reporting strange occurencies with their enmity.
Also, there was a more detailed test on FFXIAH (I think) that you linked in another thread that ruled out several other possibilities that were previously hypothesyzed (most of which were pretty complicated anyway).
With those ruled out, the "occasional no enmity proc" made much more sense.


Yeah and yet still no one can provide me with a link to these tests.

I don't really want to argue about it again, i'm not trying to be hostile or anything, I just don't want speculation to cause me (or anyone else) to make an inferior gear choice. Just because we ruled out a lot of things, doesnt make any leftover hypotheses more plausible. If anything, I'd be more likely to believe that it's broken.

Maybe i'll kidnap byrth and we can hammer this thing out.

[Jamesy]

raksha i dont have a link to testing because personally i never looked for it i was just setting a rough idea of what i have experienced when the body piece was equipped.

i play scholar about 75% of the time and almost every event i do on sch i see a spell or two generate no enmity mostly its on nukes its most likely the same for all spells its just noticed more with nukes for me because i do nuke quite a bit.

[Raksha]

raksha i dont have a link to testing because personally i never looked for it i was just setting a rough idea of what i have experienced when the body piece was equipped.

i play scholar about 75% of the time and almost every event i do on sch i see a spell or two generate no enmity mostly its on nukes its most likely the same for all spells its just noticed more with nukes for me because i do nuke quite a bit.


Not to have a pissing contest, but I play SCH about 99% of the time, and I haven't noticed any particularly strange enmity occurences. If i do have enmity problems (which I rarely ever have) I have a ~-40 enmity set I can swap to.

If the body does occasionally cause your spells to generate 0 (or 1) enmity, great.

[Zhronne]

Yeah and yet still no one can provide me with a link to these tests.
...
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, or maybe I'm just missing some subtext in your posts? I'm pretty confused atm D:


The original test was pretty moot, more a collection of people reporting strange occurencies with their enmity.
Which means, there was no real tests (for which I mean something with a considerable amount of attempts in a controllable environment) but mostly people reporting that thing happening.
I also added that I had never experienced it myself until a few weeks ago, when it happened TWO times, in pretty similar situations, and I Can't find any other possible explanation to what happened other than "something" procced making so my spell generated either 0 enmity or a very very small amount of enmity.

You never experienced it yourself?
Not saying that has to be 100% the effect on the body, but I see no other explanations for what other people have reported and what has happened to ME. I could have thought it was just people influencing each other, until it happened to me.
Could there be another explanation to what has happened to me? Maybe, help me find it then! I can't think of anything else. Just randon emnity bug that has nothing to do with AF3 body? Could be I guess, but when I look at it from a point of view concerning % chances, it seems more likely for it to be the set bonus than a random and mysterious never-seen-before enmity bug.

[Raksha]

...
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, or maybe I'm just missing some subtext in your posts? I'm pretty confused atm D:


Which means, there was no real tests (for which I mean something with a considerable amount of attempts in a controllable environment) but mostly people reporting that thing happening.



People report strange things all the time. Doesn't mean they are lying, they could just be mistaken. There's a reason why we use reason and and the scientific method, it's so we can tell things which exist from things which don't exist.




I also added that I had never experienced it myself until a few weeks ago, when it happened TWO times, in pretty similar situations, and I Can't find any other possible explanation to what happened other than "something" procced making so my spell generated either 0 enmity or a very very small amount of enmity.

You never experienced it yourself?
Not saying that has to be 100% the effect on the body, but I see no other explanations for what other people have reported and what has happened to ME. I could have thought it was just people influencing each other, until it happened to me.
Could there be another explanation to what has happened to me? Maybe, help me find it then! I can't think of anything else. Just randon emnity bug that has nothing to do with AF3 body? Could be I guess, but when I look at it from a point of view concerning % chances, it seems more likely for it to be the set bonus than a random and mysterious never-seen-before enmity bug.


So what exactly happened that causes you to believe that af3 body gives an occasional enmity free spell? Which spell were you casting? which mob were you fighting? Who were your other party members? You say it happened twice? was it on the same mob? during the same fight?

And as for "noticing it" during a fight, what exactly is there to notice? You cast a spell and don't pull hate? I do that all the time. How do we distinguish a hate-free spell from a regular one? (Hint: you probably can't in the middle of a battle.)

SE has recently added a piece of gear that "occasionally causes spells to generate no enmity" (or w/e the wording is). So we know the mechanic exists, the question remains though is that effect also on SCH af3 body? No one is going to know for sure without controlled tests.

[Zhronne]

People report strange things all the time.
Absolutely.
But when you see all sort of people (we're not talking about 2 here, eh) posting on KI, FFXIAH, Alla, official forums, BG etc and all reporting the same effect you kinda start thinking which are the odds that they're all the same 2 people using fake accounts, or under mass-hallucination, or that maybe *hint hint* what they're reporting exists and it's not a random occurrence.



Doesn't mean they are lying, they could just be mistaken.
Absolutely.
But please find another explanation for what I described, I'm open to suggestions.



So what exactly happened that causes you to believe that af3 body gives an occasional enmity free spell?
I wrote it above.



Which spell were you casting? which mob were you fighting?
Don't remember the spell on the first one, it was a nuke though. No debuff or other stuff. I clearly remember it was a nice Blizzard IV the second time, the target was different. Once it was a NM in Abyssea - Attohwa (I think Granite Borer?) and the other time it was a jelly NM in Abyssea - Konschtat (the one that drops Savant's Treatise)



Who were your other party members?
Me, the above mentioned Ninja and a BRD on the first NM, me and the Ninja alone on the second.



You say it happened twice? was it on the same mob? during the same fight?
Yes.
No.
No.



And as for "noticing it" during a fight, what exactly is there to notice?
Simply said, if that NIN wasn't back tanking and the fight hadn't just started, I would have never noticed it.
When I pull hate over a tank it's not because of a single spell, but because of all of the ones I cast until that point.
Having a single spell that generates no enmity would only delay the moment I get enmity.
Still morning-dead brain, let me try with an example:

-------------flow of time---------------->
spell 1, spell 2, spell 3, spell 4, spell 5, !!! you get hate on you
spell 1, spell 2, spell 3, spell 4, spell 5 (body proc), spell 6 you get hate on you

This is what would happen to me.
Supposing this is true, it's no surprise I never noticed it before, especially outside of abyssea. (altough the biggest reason for me is that I don't often get a chance to play SCH tbh)



You cast a spell and don't pull hate?
The monster had just been pulled/popped, no action (aside from maybe a couple of debuffs) had been performed on it.
No way I wouldn't pull hate on it in those circumstances with the amount of damage I did with those spells.



How do we distinguish a hate-free spell from a regular one? (Hint: you probably can't in the middle of a battle.)
It's almost impossible, altough maybe Libra could help with that.
But I guess it's almost impossible otherwise, and the very peculiar situation I was in allowed me to tell it because the fight had just started. Were I in the middle of a normal fight, I would have just assumed that the tank was doing his job and keeping his enmity above mine, I would have never thought my spell generated no enmity (hence: I would have never noticed, see above)



SE has recently added a piece of gear that "occasionally causes spells to generate no enmity" (or w/e the wording is). So we know the mechanic exists
Oh... uhm I missed that, or maybe I just forgot about it after reading in dat mines.


Once more, I'm not saying it has to be 100% that way, just that what happened to me was very strange and I can't find any other explanation, other than... uhm... a random bug or something? But which are the odds of that happening seriously?

[Ank]

People report strange things all the time. Doesn't mean they are lying, they could just be mistaken. There's a reason why we use reason and and the scientific method, it's so we can tell things which exist from things which don't exist.

In other words, anecdotal evidence is not evidence.

Observation leads to hypothesis.
You observe what you believe to be hate free spells. You don't then state as fact that you have hate free spells. You attempt prove your hypothesis.

So far the only thing that has given real credence, that I've seen please don't link that ffxiah thread again, to this hypothesis is the introduction of that item that claims to do exactly that.
Just to be clear though, I'm not arguing against the possibility.

[Zhronne]

I'm not particularly arguing for or against the possibility either, I'm just saying that:
1) given the current situation and the "hints" given to us by SE
2) given the series of possible buffs that have been safely ruled out due to semi-extensive testing
3) given the amount of people reporting the same or very similar occurrencies

It all seems particularly "fitting" to say the least. The fact it does seem to fit like a perfect piece of the puzzle doesn't necessarily mean things are to be that way, and the "Self-fulfilling prophecy" mechanism might be misleading some of us.
Still... this all seems way too perfectly fitting for all of these things to be just coincidences.

[Raksha]

I don't reall ffxiah much, but I read BG all the time, and here on the official forums is the first time I've ever heard this 0 enmity theory.

Zhronne I agree that's a strange occurence that happened to you, do you happen to remember how much damage those nukes did? Were you wearing any -enmity gear at all? Did the ninja have a good +enmity set? Do those mobs have particularly strange hate mechanics? Are you sure the ninja wasn't doing other stuff? (trying to proc with Ni nukes or debuffs, for instance?) Did the BRD cast Adventurer's Dirge on you? Did he cast Foe Sirvante on the NIN?


If you could provide the ffxiah thread i would appreciate it. I think i found it but I have to go buy a new rim for my car so I can't read it at the moment.

[Motenten]

It would seem to be fairly easy to test.

Need 3 people. Can be done with two if care is taken to balance initial enmity and the sch doesn't use the AF3 body during initial enmity setup.

1) Puller (any)
2) Rdm
3) Sch/rdm

Ensure mobs always hit for 0 dmg.

Puller pulls. Rdm gets on hate list with Dispel (1 CE/300 VE), then puller can zone (can do with mandys right outside Windy).
Wait out the VE decay time (5 seconds) so rdm is left with only the 1 CE.
Sch then casts Dispel (1 CE/300 VE). If sch pulls hate, there was no 0-enmity proc. Rdm can Dispel again to get hate back (should have 1 CE more than the sch), and wait out the VE decay.

Each cycle, the rdm should be 1 CE higher than the sch after VE decays. If the sch is -ever- able to cast Dispel without pulling hate, that's evidence of a 0-enmity proc.

It's possible that a "0" enmity proc still generates 1 CE (fundamental minimum). In that case, have the rdm cast Dispel an additional time so that there's a 2 CE lead over the sch, and 1 CE won't pull hate.

If no evidence of 0-enmity procs occurs, then try again with the rdm at a greater lead over the sch. Dispel generates 300 VE, so the rdm may cast two en-spells for 160 CE (slightly more than half the hate that Dispel will generate). If the sch ever fails to take hate, that's evidence of a hate reduction proc that reduced enmity by at least ~50%.

Can repeat as necessary to narrow down the enmity reduction.

[Raksha]

It would seem to be fairly easy to test.

Need 3 people. Can be done with two if care is taken to balance initial enmity and the sch doesn't use the AF3 body during initial enmity setup.

1) Puller (any)
2) Rdm
3) Sch/rdm

Ensure mobs always hit for 0 dmg.

Puller pulls. Rdm gets on hate list with Dispel (1 CE/300 VE), then puller can zone (can do with mandys right outside Windy).
Wait out the VE decay time (5 seconds) so rdm is left with only the 1 CE.
Sch then casts Dispel (1 CE/300 VE). If sch pulls hate, there was no 0-enmity proc. Rdm can Dispel again to get hate back (should have 1 CE more than the sch), and wait out the VE decay.

Each cycle, the rdm should be 1 CE higher than the sch after VE decays. If the sch is -ever- able to cast Dispel without pulling hate, that's evidence of a 0-enmity proc.

It's possible that a "0" enmity proc still generates 1 CE (fundamental minimum). In that case, have the rdm cast Dispel an additional time so that there's a 2 CE lead over the sch, and 1 CE won't pull hate.

If no evidence of 0-enmity procs occurs, then try again with the rdm at a greater lead over the sch. Dispel generates 300 VE, so the rdm may cast two en-spells for 160 CE (slightly more than half the hate that Dispel will generate). If the sch ever fails to take hate, that's evidence of a hate reduction proc that reduced enmity by at least ~50%.

Can repeat as necessary to narrow down the enmity reduction.


This was my idea of a test exactly (i was going to use 2 SCHs though, but either works). Byrth left the country and I work all of the time so I haven't been able to talk to him about it yet.

[Zhronne]

I don't reall ffxiah much, but I read BG all the time, and here on the official forums is the first time I've ever heard this 0 enmity theory.
Don't remember if there's a thread about it (don't think so, but there are a few on FFXIAH and Allakhazam, KI too I think), but there are quite a few random posts, spread mostly into the random questions threads.
As I said before, it's mostly a matter of different people reporting these things, more than anybody doing careful testings.
Which I would normally consider moot, but I've seen reported it so many times by so many people in so many forums you kinda start raising your right eybrow.



Zhronne I agree that's a strange occurence that happened to you, do you happen to remember how much damage those nukes did?
Nope sorry, but it was normal damage for a gimpy SCH like me. It wasn't something like 200 damage etc, probably was around 2k or something below (if I recall I wasn't using ebullience)


Were you wearing any -enmity gear at all? Did the ninja have a good +enmity set?
Ninja was using full AF3+2 set, possibly Yonin was up. I don't have any special -enmity gear. Your average gimpy ful AF3+2, AF2 belt, int+5 rings, hecate/moldavite, HQ staves, AF3 neck, Twilight Cape, and I had no klimaform/weather up for sure.
Definitely no Ebullience or other strategems. No Animus either on either me or the NIN.


Do those mobs have particularly strange hate mechanics?
As far as I remember they don't have hate reset mechanics.
Pretty sure about Granite Borer, don't remember about the slime-thing in Konsch but don't think he has anything like that.
Mobs have been popped/claimed for just a few seconds anyway, doubt they did any TP move, just a single spellcast probably.


Are you sure the ninja wasn't doing other stuff? (trying to proc with Ni nukes or debuffs, for instance?)
No, he usually starts with debuffs like Hojo/Kurayami/Yurin hoping for hints during those 3, at the time my spells hit he was still doing those. He didn't voke on Borer (used Violent flourish) and if I recall he didn't voke on the slug either but I might be wrong here, not 1005 sure.


Did the BRD cast Adventurer's Dirge on you? Did he cast Foe Sirvante on the NIN?
Don't think he has those 2 merited, but BRD was afk anyway, shouldn't even have mentioned him lol, sorry for the confusion :D
Oh and we were just in two on the slime guy btw, brd was there only on Borer but came back like a while after the thing happened.



If you could provide the ffxiah thread i would appreciate it. I think i found it but I have to go buy a new rim for my car so I can't read it at the moment.
If I recall the thread was the same one you found, which has the tests for the other things (which have been ruled out) ont he first page.
In the following page there are other people reporting the "omigod I cast a spell and no enmity!!1one!" thing.
Lemme check and I'll copypaste.
That was the main one, pretty sure. Think there were a few more random ones.

[Zhronne]

Found only this (http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/17448/savants-gown-enhances-addendum/3/) one on the first page which is the one I Was talking about earlier.
Pretty sure there a few random posts here and there spread around but I couldn't be arsed to look for them.
The random questions on BG should still be there since I searched on BG a few days ago and could find them inside one of the random questions thread, if I'm not wrong.

[Crossarius]

In the same thread there popped a new comment about it stating that it might even shred enmity.
ffxiah talk about the AF3 body effect (http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/17448/savants-gown-enhances-addendum/5/#1670179)

[Zemarin]

I don't see why there is an ongoing debate to find someones uncredible testing on something that pretty plain and simple and clear as all day since SE released info on what it does.

Light arts: White magic has a chance to cause no enmity Gain
Dark arts: Black magic has a chance to cause no enmity..

And just because you don't notice something doesn't mean it doesn't work, its pretty damn noticeable esp when u cast blizzard 5 for 6~8k/mb'd for more dmg and mob dont move then u libra for less Enmity then u had before your last libra... And its just as random as quick cast is. if you really wanna test it go get a pld mule, have him hold hate then spend countless hours casting libra >> magic >> libra again Just to get a stupid % like maybe 5-10%

And no having one spell not have enmity game doesn't mean you get a random enmity douse.. It means simply u dont get enmity for that one spell as long as the right arts is on.