To Developers: Regen spells

[saevel]

This is for the Developers.

Can they look into giving RDM access to the enhancing magic spells Regen III / Regen IV.

If SE doesn't desire to give RDM access to Cure V then they should at least give us access to the higher level enhancing spells of Regen. This would be a great assistance to RDM's role in supporting their fellow party members.

[tyrantsyn]

Regen III/IV would be nice. Tho with composure, these spell would be like crack for melee. IDK if having those spells wouldn't be a little broken. But since we know for sure RDM is not going to see Cure V, doesn't hurt to ask. And would probably make the RDM community happy.

[saevel]

Regen III/IV would be nice. Tho with composure, these spell would be like crack for melee. IDK if having those spells wouldn't be a little broken. But since we know for sure RDM is not going to see Cure V, doesn't hurt to ask. And would probably make the RDM community happy.

Well SCH already gets a JA that makes their enhancing magic 2x duration, along with the super effects that LA gives them. This would still be below them but would allow us to support heal better.

[Kaych]

I dont support this, however I do want the regen spells to last way longer than they do now.
For instance if you have a regen spell active on one member it lasts 10 minutes. If you have two regen spells active in a party, they will each last 5 minutes. 4 Regens active 2.5 minutes active and so on.

With RDMs the case would be a litle different since they have the jobability Composure. Any suggestions?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I dont support this, however I do want the regen spells to last way longer than they do now.
For instance if you have a regen spell active on one member it lasts 10 minutes. If you have two regen spells active in a party, they will each last 5 minutes. 4 Regens active 2.5 minutes active and so on.

With RDMs the case would be a litle different since they have the jobability Composure. Any suggestions?

Even with Regen IV RDM would still only have 30 HP per tick, Okay it would do ~1800 over the duration of 3 minutes but big woop! That'd barely touch most jobs on any content Abyssea+ heck even Dynamis.

The only use it'd ever have is for RDM themselves, it will never be a means to actually heal anyone but yourself.

[saevel]

Nahh with our emp gear it would last a good chunk of time. Your not trying to cure someone for 1000 HP, your recovering them from the damage their going to take. Monster hits for 250, player regen's 30HP. It reduces cure load over time not replaces healing altogether.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Nahh with our emp gear it would last a good chunk of time. Your not trying to cure someone for 1000 HP, your recovering them from the damage their going to take. Monster hits for 250, player regen's 30HP. It reduces cure load over time not replaces healing altogether.

Under double duration, it'd be what 1:57 hardly game breaking. Personally Regen IV would be nice, but I see no reason not to get at least Regen III. Two tiers less than the master (SCH) one tier less than WHM.

[saevel]

Under double duration, it'd be what 1:57 hardly game breaking. Personally Regen IV would be nice, but I see no reason not to get at least Regen III. Two tiers less than the master (SCH) one tier less than WHM.

Considering your original quote was,


The only use it'd ever have is for RDM themselves, it will never be a means to actually heal anyone but yourself.

And I refuted it. Regen isn't a primary means of curing people, its just healing support. Properly utilized it reduces the amount of healing needed. Back at 75 I would go RDM/SCH and cycle Regen II in-between Haste's on the melee group. Was a nice way to counteract the aoe's people would be taking along with the occasional accession Cure IV.

[Greatguardian]

This wouldn't affect me much either way, personally. Regens are fundamentally useless if you're actually fighting something that's ITG or VT+. You're either wasting ticks, or you're dead. There's very little middle ground.

[tyrantsyn]

I see the best utility for this as a duo situation. Lets say a RDM and a WAR fighting mobs that do between 70 to 120 damage on normal strikes. With Phalanx and Regen III/IV on the WAR, you effectively cut down on the amount of support the WAR needs to get by. And free's the RDM up to do what ever.

In end game situation I suppose it would allow melee to recover at a medium pace after getting hit from AOE's as long as there not being spammed. They might be helpful in keeping pace with damage in a RDM main heal situation, tho I wouldn't put much stock in that. The way I've seen it, getting a guy back up to max hp is imperative in end game fights. Mobs do such massive damage I've seen ppl go down when they were in the white with only 5 to 10 % of their hp gone.

[ManaKing]

I see the best utility for this as a duo situation. Lets say a RDM and a WAR fighting mobs that do between 70 to 120 damage on normal strikes. With Phalanx and Regen III/IV on the WAR, you effectively cut down on the amount of support the WAR needs to get by. And free's the RDM up to do what ever.

In end game situation I suppose it would allow melee to recover at a medium pace after getting hit from AOE's as long as there not being spammed. They might be helpful in keeping pace with damage in a RDM main heal situation, tho I wouldn't put much stock in that. The way I've seen it, getting a guy back up to max hp is imperative in end game fights. Mobs do such massive damage I've seen ppl go down when they were in the white with only 5 to 10 % of their hp gone.

No you've got the gist of it. Regen is useful for low man situations, currently. I never saw the reasons why WHM got Regen Potency and Higher Tiers of Regen. It makes more sense for another job to be doing that while WHM is main curing. I'm assuming that is why they are making the changes to SCH. I hope that WHM's and SCH's merits get reworked to reflect the change.

I want Regen IV or better. It's not game breaking and we have tools to get more out of it, just like SCH.

[saevel]

No you've got the gist of it. Regen is useful for low man situations, currently. I never saw the reasons why WHM got Regen Potency and Higher Tiers of Regen. It makes more sense for another job to be doing that while WHM is main curing. I'm assuming that is why they are making the changes to SCH. I hope that WHM's and SCH's merits get reworked to reflect the change.

I want Regen IV or better. It's not game breaking and we have tools to get more out of it, just like SCH.

Pretty much this. I'd like to be able to hand our regens to slow down the HP loss that requires curing. Would be a good way to support our fellow WHMs.

[tyrantsyn]

I want Regen IV or better. It's not game breaking and we have tools to get more out of it, just like SCH.

/nod, you know some times I wonder if this healing thing is as much of a dilemma to SE as it is too us? They want to keep WHM as a primary healer threw large scale cure's, they decide to give SCH a higher tier regen to give them some type of uniqueness. And than you look at RDM and say okay what can I do next, borrow or give it something unique? At this point if the job isn't getting some type of new healing magic I would have to say some type of further damage reduction spell maybe in it's future. Like a spell that annuls damage that scales with our enhancing magic skill like aqua veil. Or reduce large scale damage for a set number of hits. Maybe a retooled phalanx II?

Sorry got away from the subject there.

[Concerned4FFxi]

Under double duration, it'd be what 1:57 hardly game breaking. Personally Regen IV would be nice, but I see no reason not to get at least Regen III. Two tiers less than the master (SCH) one tier less than WHM.

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[Fredjan]

I want Regen IV or better.

We definitely need a Regen improvement, but I heavily doubt it'd end up like that.

Checking levels of all spells here:
Regen I - WHM21, RDM21, SCH18
Regen II - WHM44, RDM76, SCH37
Regen III - WHM66, SCH59
Regen IV - WHM86, SCH79
Regen V - SCH99

Regen II isn't acceptable at this point especially considering the buffs the other jobs - especially Scholar - are gaining in this department. I'd expect SE to at least give us the third tier and adjust Regen II's level. I get dumbfonded when I wonder why Regen II is learned 55 levels later. If anything, Regen III should be level 76, with Regen II at the "mid point" which would be 48-49 between 21 and 76.

My suggestion would be:
Regen I - WHM21, RDM21, SCH18
Regen II - WHM44, RDM49, SCH37
Regen III - WHM66, RDM76, SCH59
Regen IV - WHM86, SCH79
Regen V - SCH99

I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation/request, considering we aren't getting Cure V, and SCH's Regen potency is getting greatly enhanced (ie test server finding: Regen V is 64 HP/tick with Light Arts - at the moment; default potency being 40/tick), not to mention their 2hr improves Regen potency even more.

[SpankWustler]

I think it would be totally kosher for Red Mage to have Regen IV. As the better healer, White Mage will have more potent regen spells. Maybe similar to Scholar in terms of potency per tier, if Cleric's Briault +2 enhances regen spells further. As the better enhancer, Red Mage would have longer-lasting regen spells.

As the master of regen spells, Scholar would have both. Of course, regen spells would still be highly situational and I have doubts that any changes to them will affect healing abilities as much as the planned changes to Cure formulas.

[Economizer]

Red Mage should at least have Regen III. Although in this case, having the same tier (Regen IV) as White Mage won't hurt White Mages in the slightest, even if they don't have any of the crappy Regen gear/merits. Regen IV won't allow another healer to heal at a level competent enough to be enough on stuff you need a White Mage for - which is the very logical reason why other spells aren't given out.

Basically, I see no reason Red Mage shouldn't get Regen III, and only poor ones it shouldn't get Regen IV. Something like Regen III at 76, and Regen IV at 99 sounds like it could work.


I never saw the reasons why WHM got Regen Potency and Higher Tiers of Regen. It makes more sense for another job to be doing that while WHM is main curing.

I think the logic was that Regens (then) were more MP effective then cures mostly, and the idea was that the White Mage would somehow have time to cast what is essentially ancient magic when it comes to healing cast times.

Now Regen is not MP effective for White Mages, although SE is fixing the cast times after all these years. I'm upset that it is when it won't really help White Mage anymore that they decide to fix Regen cast times, years after the fact, but I'm not really sad to see them become more available to other jobs.


Of course, regen spells would still be highly situational and I have doubts that any changes to them will affect healing abilities as much as the planned changes to Cure formulas.

The cast time change probably has the most effect, but yeah, I'm more interested in the cure formula changes. If SE had done that before giving White Mage Cure VI, we wouldn't have all these "give us Cure V" arguments, because Cure III/IV would fill the roles of higher tier cures currently, and Cure VI wouldn't exist to give people who don't know how to make sane or logical points a reason to argue for Cure V.

[SpankWustler]

I just read about the casting time changes, and they are apparently drastic. Regen I seems to be 1.5 seconds. Regen IV looks be 2.25 seconds, which is less than half it's current casting time. Regen V has been reported as 2.5 seconds, which is half of Regen IV's casting time at present. It's a really pleasant surprise.

If the Development Bros have ever thought about expanding Red Mage's selection of Regen spells, now seems like a great time to do it. They're already messing with the spells constantly in an attempt to re-balance them for Scholar and level 99.

Oh, hey, I found the latest .dats on Julian's thingy (http://juliandev.com/ffxi/TEST2011-11-25/):


Regen - Gradually restores target's HP.
MP Cost: 15 Casting Time: 1.5 Recast Delay: 12.0
Target: Party Member/Self / Type: White / Element: Light / Skill: Enhancing Magic
Jobs: WHM21 RDM21 SCH18

Regen II - Gradually restores target's HP.
MP Cost: 36 Casting Time: 1.75 Recast Delay: 16.0
Target: Party Member/Self / Type: White / Element: Light / Skill: Enhancing Magic
Jobs: WHM44 RDM76 SCH37

Regen III - Gradually restores target's HP.
MP Cost: 64 Casting Time: 2.0 Recast Delay: 20.0
Target: Party Member/Self / Type: White / Element: Light / Skill: Enhancing Magic
Jobs: WHM66 SCH59

Regen IV - Gradually restores target's HP.
MP Cost: 82 Casting Time: 2.25 Recast Delay: 24.0
Target: Party Member/Self / Type: White / Element: Light / Skill: Enhancing Magic
Jobs: WHM86 SCH79

Regen V - Gradually restores target's HP.
MP Cost: 100 Casting Time: 2.5 Recast Delay: 28.0
Target: Party Member/Self / Type: White / Element: Light / Skill: Enhancing Magic
Jobs: SCH99

[ManaKing]

/nod, you know some times I wonder if this healing thing is as much of a dilemma to SE as it is too us? They want to keep WHM as a primary healer threw large scale cure's, they decide to give SCH a higher tier regen to give them some type of uniqueness. And than you look at RDM and say okay what can I do next, borrow or give it something unique? At this point if the job isn't getting some type of new healing magic I would have to say some type of further damage reduction spell maybe in it's future. Like a spell that annuls damage that scales with our enhancing magic skill like aqua veil. Or reduce large scale damage for a set number of hits. Maybe a retooled phalanx II?

Sorry got away from the subject there.

No you are still on it. The point is WHM are still going to be the best bulk curers. SCH will be able to not only help WHMs, but do them one up on Regen so that WHM are going to say to SCH, "Will you put Regens on people so I can focus on main curing and any other aspects of my job?" The question is, what will the WHM and SCH ask the RDM to do? Phallanx is getting rusty. We could really use an upgrade to our damage mitigation spell.

[ManaKing]

I think it would be totally kosher for Red Mage to have Regen IV. As the better healer, White Mage will have more potent regen spells. Maybe similar to Scholar in terms of potency per tier, if Cleric's Briault +2 enhances regen spells further. As the better enhancer, Red Mage would have longer-lasting regen spells.

As the master of regen spells, Scholar would have both. Of course, regen spells would still be highly situational and I have doubts that any changes to them will affect healing abilities as much as the planned changes to Cure formulas.

I wouldn't say they are highly situation at this point. The only time that they can't be useful is when whatever you're fighting takes the tank from 100% to almost dead, constantly. Otherwise Regen keeps people in better condition on average. Sometime that average may not be overly significant, but it will always reduce the amount of hate a WHM will accumulate over the duration of a fight. Thus a SCH is capable of protecting and insulating the WHM from aggro.

My guess is that what was found in the .dat files is what is going to be implemented. RDM is the poster child for, they gave it to other people even though it makes sense that we should give it to RDM. Most likely RDM will never go back to a significant healing roll. SE has made no indication that they will be addressing any of RDMs curing 'woes', only that they will be keeping it in line with how it is now and that it will scale the same as every other job when they redo healing magic. This isn't a big blow to some of us because mediocre healing was all we ever needed to get by, but to anyone that is trying to pink mage it up, this is a death sentence.

[Trangnai]

I must admit that I've always thought giving rdm regen spells was a good idea, only to see once again that sch gets a one up on us. seeing as refesh is one of token spells, why can't regen be too? making us a job that can be mainly DoT and RoT based. This would help the melee advocates like myself aswell as we would be able to offer more support from the front lines. in cases of back line roles we will still have access to those spells to boost our support.

At least regen III would be nice, but regen IV would be even nicer. Poison III would be nice too, come to think of it.

[ManaKing]

Why Poison 3 hasn't happened yet is a complete mystery to me.

[tyrantsyn]

Why Poison 3 hasn't happened yet is a complete mystery to me.

Probably because the next tier will be a merited one for RDM? I can't help but to think that once we see 99, that they'll spend the next year getting spells to scale right with levels. Like scaling Regen II back to something that makes more sense for it's progression. But that just a stab in the dark.

We learn I at level 5 and II at level 46. Odd they haven't thrown it in there yet.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Probably because the next tier will be a merited one for RDM? I can't help but to think that once we see 99, that they'll spend the next year getting spells to scale right with levels. Like scaling Regen II back to something that makes more sense for it's progression. But that just a stab in the dark.

We learn I at level 5 and II at level 46. Odd they haven't thrown it in there yet.

Not to mention we was the first to get Regen... Well done SE!

[Seriha]

Well, poison was often part of the evil DoT/Kite tactic, so it's not entirely surprising we've been held from that just like Grav II seems to be more of the same.

[cidbahamut]

evil DoT/Kite tactic

http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/photos/images/original/000/000/151/n725075089_288918_2774.jpg

[ManaKing]

well you see. The reason that people think that RDM is OP (Over Powered) is that they could take a ridiculously long time to solo NMs that usually took multiple people to take on normally. Because this annoyed people so much because a RDM would be taking up genbu for the better portion of an hour or two, they decided that RDM shouldn't get any stronger to prevent them from doing this same garbage to the next generation of NMs.

Players found ways to make RDM stronger than the Devs intended. To make sure they wouldn't be unaware of how far players could push RDM again, they broke everything on the job related to kiting and made only the most basic upgrades to RDM since 75. So basically all RDMs have to suffer because some people got creative. Instead they will just let NIN solo everything because their DPS is higher so they don't claim mobs for extremely long times. It doesn't matter that NIN is blatantly stronger that RDM. The Devs intended them to be as stupidly over powered as they made them in aby; either that or they don't know how math works. I'm assuming they are pretty good at math.

[cidbahamut]

It was rhetorical.

I'm well aware of how terribad players would use nothing but DoTs to kill NMs. Seriha calls it "evil" though, and that's just silly.

[Greatguardian]

But but but nuking uses soooo much MP, and always resists because Rdm has low elemental magic skill!

[Seriha]

It was rhetorical.

I'm well aware of how terribad players would use nothing but DoTs to kill NMs. Seriha calls it "evil" though, and that's just silly.

You've programmed yourself to jump down my butt every chance you get that you missed the sarcasm.

[cidbahamut]

You've programmed yourself to jump down my butt every chance you get that you missed the sarcasm.
I find it difficult to believe that was sarcasm considering how you've gone on at length about how much you despise people who solo NMs and scorn them for damaging the job by preventing us from getting nice things.

[Seriha]

My opinion != SE's opinion, no matter how close they may actually be. Ball's in your court to prove it's never been a factor with the implementation of things like immunities, rage timers, flee speeds, limited fight areas, potent regens/regains, and so on. I'm not the only one who's made this observation, but apparently I'm silly for reminding some of an aspect of it.

[Neisan_Quetz]

If you take so long to kill a NM it rages you deserve to lose it (in most cases). Most rage timers are no less than 20m-1hour, anything shorter is a zerg kill (or shouldn't have taken you that long in the first place). Gravity immunity means nothing anymore, I don't even remember the last NM that wasn't a joke it landed on anyway.

[Seriha]

Power of 75's grew over time. While the method grew less practiced as a result of that and SE's nerfs/preventative measures, to imply it never happened is the silly proposition, quite possibly to our long-term detriment as "powerful" job.

[Neisan_Quetz]

It grew less practiced because we realized how inefficient it was. Kinda like SC+MB.

[Swords]

It was always inefficient, people just did it to sell or keep drops, or for bragging rights just to say they did it, but that was SE's fault for not fixing bad game mechanics not because RDM's were capable of abusing them, after all it's those exact same bad game mechanics that allow people to abuse zerg tactics and other jobs like NIN, MNK, DNC, and so on to solo things now and better than RDM's used too. They just decided to take it out on RDM cause everyone was using Avesta's and a few others soloing exploits as a scapegoat to the real problem which is much more apparent though many would deny the truth so they can keep on soloing things like RDM used too.