To Developers: Accession

[saevel]

This is for the developers.

Can they alter accession to work with many of the staple enhancing buffs that RDM's use.

Haste
Enspell II
Gain-XXX spells
Temper

Those spells should be usable with accession or have some other method for a RDM to make them aoe. You allow BLU to aoe their spells to party members, you should allow RDM to do the same.

[Arcon]

Would help RDMs be more useful again. AoE Haste and Temper sounds quite nice.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Locking our subjob really isn't a good thing. We should have had an ability to do this naturally ages ago.

[tyrantsyn]

I'd take a accession~able over targeted. Even if it locks my sub. I rather have both, but I have my doubts about that ever happen. Some of these spells being lock out of accession is just silly. And I'd hate to get Temper II merit spell that requires me to merit the hell out of it just to get it up to par with 1. When just accessioning Temper would get the job done.

[saevel]

While my inner sensibilities rail against the idea of being forced /SCH, in the current state of the game we already are forced /SCH unless you have a top notch melee set and your group is willing to work with you. This is more to enhance the WHM part of RDM then anything else.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

While my inner sensibilities rail against the idea of being forced /SCH, in the current state of the game we already are forced /SCH unless you have a top notch melee set and your group is willing to work with you. This is more to enhance the WHM part of RDM then anything else.

Even ignoring melee'ing, we're locked out of say BLM for stun, and so on. I just think forcing the enhancer to sub SCH to do something we should be able to is absurd. Heck even making a merit spell that is 10 minutes and can be dropped to 5 minutes to pass all of our active buffs is a much better solution than Accession.

[Soranika]

Adjustments to SCH should be suggested to it as a main job for focus, not as a subjob.

[saevel]

Even ignoring melee'ing, we're locked out of say BLM for stun, and so on. I just think forcing the enhancer to sub SCH to do something we should be able to is absurd. Heck even making a merit spell that is 10 minutes and can be dropped to 5 minutes to pass all of our active buffs is a much better solution than Accession.

*Cough*

Those spells should be usable with accession or have some other method for a RDM to make them aoe. You allow BLU to aoe their spells to party members, you should allow RDM to do the same.

I'd prefer another method, but I'm thinking about SE here. Plus 5min is nowhere near short enough. Our buffs have a short duration, made shorter if your casting in full +enh set (vs full emp). Accession is on a 2min timer and is ready ~right now~. And while I would prefer a JA on a 3min timer, knowing SE they would make it 10min and only work on a few spells.

And on a side note, why in the heck would you go /BLM just for stun? ES is a joke, as are the ele DoT's. Go /DRK, you'll get stun, absorb line, ABII, SE LR and access to Vorpal (if you don't have CDC). /BLM used to be about ES Sleepga for certain BC's, but now you'd just use a BLM anyway.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

*Cough*


I'd prefer another method, but I'm thinking about SE here. Plus 5min is nowhere near short enough. Our buffs have a short duration, made shorter if your casting in full +enh set (vs full emp). Accession is on a 2min timer and is ready ~right now~. And while I would prefer a JA on a 3min timer, knowing SE they would make it 10min and only work on a few spells.

5 minutes is around perfect timing, assuming they didn't copy the duration bonus from Composure like it should, short of Regen, with the EMP set it'd allow most if not all spells the duration of the JA recast.


Adjustments to SCH should be suggested to it as a main job for focus, not as a subjob.

When they get Temper, Gain-***, Enspells II or even Haste naturally, maybe.... It's already insulting enough they can do a merit spell better than us in Phalanx

[saevel]

5 minutes is around perfect timing, assuming they didn't copy the duration bonus from Composure like it should, short of Regen, with the EMP set it'd allow most if not all spells the duration of the JA recast.



When they get Temper, Gain-***, Enspells II or even Haste naturally, maybe.... It's already insulting enough they can do a merit spell better than us in Phalanx

Umm no. Temper / Enspells / Phalanx you cast in full enhancing magic gear, not emp gear. The duration bonus is much less then you think. It'll wear off before your JA is up. Haste is the only one that you'd cast in full Emp gear. Just goes to show that's all you do on RDM.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Umm no. Temper / Enspells / Phalanx you cast in full enhancing magic gear, not emp gear. The duration bonus is much less then you think. It'll wear off before your JA is up. Haste is the only one that you'd cast in full Emp gear. Just goes to show that's all you do on RDM.

Unless you have the new Enhancing Body (Which only adds 1 enspell dmg, no phalanx increase and I don't know the Temper formula on the check I did) how is it, you'd be casting Phalanx in Emp Body, Head, cape and Feet as there is no enhancing better for those slots. This should put it pretty close to the 5 minute timer if not at it unless my math is wrong.

[Greatguardian]

Oddly enough, I think this would be pretty cool. Huzzah.

[tyrantsyn]

Umm no. Temper / Enspells / Phalanx you cast in full enhancing magic gear, not emp gear. The duration bonus is much less then you think. It'll wear off before your JA is up. Haste is the only one that you'd cast in full Emp gear. Just goes to show that's all you do on RDM.

Normally when i'm on RDM I go for the max duration over enhancing skill just to avoid recasting. Even if it's for an extra 20 seconds. I can see where it would be better for spells like stone skin or phalanx to go more for the skill side of it. But I'd rather have the spare time to try and land enfee...... oh made myself sad. Well i could always hea...... oh damn it. Well i guess I can nuke or stand around til I need to re buff again.

[Greatguardian]

Haste/Refresh/static buff Enhancements are fine to cast in duration sets. Variable buff enhancements should always be cast at the highest level possible, even if it means recasting it more often.

[Ketaru]

I really made my suggestions in the other threads about Accession based on what I read somewhere. Don't ask me to quote where, but I've heard the English version of the Manifesto was not entirely correct and that supposedly (again, don't quote me on this) RDM was really meant to be a self-enhancer.

And, playing along those lines, the only way we'll get transferable buffs is Accession. Or perhaps a Temper II in the future. I don't know, maybe there is some extra work involved in making a spell compatible with Accession. But SCH main's new Enmity and Regain spells work with Accession. Temper is White Enhancing magic and so it ought to benefit from falling in the same group that Accession applies.

Unless of course Camate comes here and tells us, in writing, that the team thinks giving other players enhanced Double Attack would be overpowering.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I really made my suggestions in the other threads about Accession based on what I read somewhere. Don't ask me to quote where, but I've heard the English version of the Manifesto was not entirely correct and that supposedly (again, don't quote me on this) RDM was really meant to be a self-enhancer.

And, playing along those lines, the only way we'll get transferable buffs is Accession. Or perhaps a Temper II in the future. I don't know, maybe there is some extra work involved in making a spell compatible with Accession. But SCH main's new Enmity and Regain spells work with Accession. Temper is White Enhancing magic and so it ought to benefit from falling in the same group that Accession applies.

Unless of course Camate comes here and tells us, in writing, that the team thinks giving other players enhanced Double Attack would be overpowering.

Phalanx II, while under-powered denies the fact they don't think RDM is mean't to enhance the party. The only thing that stopped RDM getting an ability similar to Accession is SCH itself, which is a job that just shouldn't have been added and the buffs it gets now passed out to the jobs that deserved them properly such as Ebullience to BLM. That said, this shouldn't really matter anymore. It's not like all unique JA's/spells haven't been passed out to every job anyway.

As for Double Attack being over-powered both SMN and COR can do the game so doubtful. SE is just anti-RDM buffs ever since Avesta, and now the fool that was in charge before is back you can bet your bottom dollar it'll stay that way.

[saevel]

Normally when i'm on RDM I go for the max duration over enhancing skill just to avoid recasting. Even if it's for an extra 20 seconds. I can see where it would be better for spells like stone skin or phalanx to go more for the skill side of it. But I'd rather have the spare time to try and land enfee...... oh made myself sad. Well i could always hea...... oh damn it. Well i guess I can nuke or stand around til I need to re buff again.

Things like Enspell use enhancing magic as both potency and accuracy, they become more effective when you go for max skill on them. Only the Emp feet / cape have +enh skill. Hands / legs / body all have high amounts of +skill, leaving the head as the only piece you could wear. So on a +enh set you'd end up with +43% duration.

[ManaKing]

I want Composure to AoE my buff spells I cast. Make it simple.

If you are going to pick and choose which buffs work: Temper, Haste, Phallanx, and Refresh.

[saevel]

I want Composure to AoE my buff spells I cast. Make it simple.

Ohh how I do wish for this. I was trying to be conservative and realistic though. SE already doesn't like our job, their too afraid we'll be "already a very strong job".

[ManaKing]

Ohh how I do wish for this. I was trying to be conservative and realistic though. SE already doesn't like our job, their too afraid we'll be "already a very strong job".

We aren't a very strong job, we are just the job that is strong enough to be the weakest in the game and still have people play it.

Just make our AoE buffing surround things that is RDM specific and there shouldn't be a problem. No one is going to complain about AoE Haste. If they do, they should be taken out side to a back alley and re-educated.

[Greatguardian]

We aren't a very strong job, we are just the job that is strong enough to be the weakest in the game and still have people play it.

Just make our AoE buffing surround things that is RDM specific and there shouldn't be a problem. No one is going to complain about AoE Haste. If they do, they should be taken out side to a back alley and re-educated.

Now, now. We're not Summoner quite yet.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I was about to counter mentioning Pup/bst, then I remembered there's hardly anyone playing those jobs.

[Concerned4FFxi]

This is for the developers.

Can they alter accession to work with many of the staple enhancing buffs that RDM's use.

Haste
Enspell II
Gain-XXX spells
Temper

Those spells should be usable with accession or have some other method for a RDM to make them aoe. You allow BLU to aoe their spells to party members, you should allow RDM to do the same.

approve this message

[Sonshou]

I rather have those spells affected by accession under the main job SCH only. give SCH some advantage since they are the job who own those abilities.

[SpankWustler]

I rather have those spells affected by accession under the main job SCH only. give SCH some advantage since they are the job who own those abilities.

When a Scholar casts Gain-STR, Temper, or En-Blizzard II he or she would be able to make those spells Area of Effect.

Something seems off. Let me look at that again.

When a Scholar casts Gain-STR, Temper, or En-Blizzard II he or she would be able to make those spells Area of Effect.

That really doesn't sound right. Maybe if I look at it one more time, I can figure it out.

When Scholar casts...Hey! Wait a minute! Scholar doesn't have any of those spells!

[Hayward]

Now, now. We're not Summoner quite yet.

*waits for better-quality bait than this*

I agree that Accession needs to include Haste (among other spells) now that Scholars could easily do this now with /WHM as well as Red and White Mages. I can't speak for all career Summoners, but I have absolutely no qualms with this as I'd have all the more chance to do other things in a party (like those new Fenrir/Diabolos wards, for example). I could somewhat understand the concern at the 75 cap, but now there's no real objection that I can see for not doing this. Besides, it would certainly streamline this dimension of the job's repertoire. I don't agree with the argument that it would lock RDM into /SCH, though, as some NMs may still require /DRK or /BLM for Stuns (I deliberately excluded /WHM from this point as there's no excuse for leaving out WHMs under any circumstance).

The definition of job balance needs to change with the level cap.

[Economizer]

Haste
Enspell II
Gain-XXX spells
Temper

I'm not so sure on Temper or Enspell II (one could argue that these are for Red Mage melee, not buffing the party; one could also argue that unlike Haste, they wouldn't follow the "rules" of Scholar AoE-ability), but on Haste and Gain-XXX spells, I have the following thoughts:

Red Mage should have gotten Boost-XXX spells instead like White Mage - if cast times mattered, a secret Job Ability to make them cast faster for Red Mage. There is not a lot of good reasons why this spell is different between the two aside from just making Red Mage not be able to AOE for no good reason.

Haste should be Accessionable, however, both Red Mage and White Mage should get Hastega at some high level, at the same time. Thus, /SCH isn't completely overpowered, but /SCH would still allow Haste to be casted on Alliance members.

While we are at it, give Red Mage more AoE debuffs, and higher tiers of Dia. They're in the Dats already last I heard, and Red Mage could use a better crowd control role. Sleep could still be Black Mage only if it matters.

[Ketaru]

I agree that Accession needs to include Haste (among other spells) now that Scholars could easily do this now with /WHM as well as Red and White Mages.

People deliberately exclude that because they were very specific when they said that Haste would not be a spell compatible with Accession. Besides, that wouldn't give us an edge because WHMs are subbing /SCH too.

But we've yet to have any word that Refresh II, Enspell II, Temper, and Gain-??? are going to be deliberately excluded on the basis of some phantom balance issue. Their exclusion is baffling.

Refresh II is nothing more than a tier'd up version of Refresh, only SCH can use the latter and not the former. Enspell II's are nothing more than tier'd up gimp versions of Enspells, only SCH can use the latter and not the former. Gain-??? are self-target versions of Boost-???, much like RDM's Barspells are self-target versions of WHM's Bar-ra spells, only SCH has access to Barspells but not Gain-??? spells.

We can't even use Accession for Baramnesia! New spell. Hmm...


While we are at it, give Red Mage more AoE debuffs

What is it that makes people go hard for AoE debuffs? When, most of the time, you're fighting lone, difficult enemies?

[ManaKing]

Now, now. We're not Summoner quite yet.

SMNs can easily solo plenty of NMs, there is nothing weak about a well equipped SMN. Same with PUP and BST. If you take those jobs seriously they are amazing. Most people think they are jokes so they play them like jokes, but I have friends that play all of those jobs and they are capable of soloing all sorts of content that generally requires multiple people.


I rather have those spells affected by accession under the main job SCH only. give SCH some advantage since they are the job who own those abilities.

Well that really doesn't make any sense since SCH doesn't get Temper, Enspell 2s, Haste, or Gain spells. The only one you can sub is Haste. I don't want to Accession any of them either. I just want Composure to allow me to distribute the buffs that I get in a more convenient method. You can still enjoy that you can cast your buffs outside of your party, while I can be put in a specific party to support a specific group of people.

And honestly if you want to start jacking spells from RDM, we would be happy to take stuff from you. Don't think we have any interest in sharing anything that is actually unique to RDM at this point, since you already get almost every benefit a caster can get from /RDM. If you want Enspells, Temper, Gain Spells, or Refresh 2, we expect your unique toys in return.

[Economizer]

What is it that makes people go hard for AoE debuffs? When, most of the time, you're fighting lone, difficult enemies?

I'm under no illusion that this would make Red Mage more powerful. Even on tough mobs, there is one mob with high resist rates, which AoE spells won't really be good for.

What AoE debuffs will be good for is crowd fights, which Red Mage already excels on with spikes and Phalanx. Considering that the spells are already in the dats, it would take less game resources and dev time to produce this as well. Basically, it doesn't overpower Red Mage (unless being able to wipe shadows without waking mobs or making them unsleepable is overpowered for Red Mage) and would take minimal work compared to other things.

Shoot, maybe when SE releases more dungeon crawl type content, they'll have hordes of weak foes susceptible to debuffs but not sleep to exploit this with.

[Shadowsong]

SMNs can easily solo plenty of NMs, there is nothing weak about a well equipped SMN. Same with PUP and BST. If you take those jobs seriously they are amazing. Most people think they are jokes so they play them like jokes, but I have friends that play all of those jobs and they are capable of soloing all sorts of content that generally requires multiple people.

When people compare jobs they obviously are comparing top tier vs top tier. Of course a crappy MNK is going to get beaten by an awesome SMN. Also, people are not concerned/talking about soloing. A job that never gets damaged/hate while having an unlimited supply of basically immortal pets? Well duh...

I think we should be looking at this from the other side. Haste and Refresh should be Accession-able, but only by SCH main. And in that vein, give SCH access to PhalanxII and En-Spells, but (possibly) with a weaker effect.

[ManaKing]

When people compare jobs they obviously are comparing top tier vs top tier. Of course a crappy MNK is going to get beaten by an awesome SMN. Also, people are not concerned/talking about soloing. A job that never gets damaged/hate while having an unlimited supply of basically immortal pets? Well duh...

I think we should be looking at this from the other side. Haste and Refresh should be Accession-able, but only by SCH main. And in that vein, give SCH access to PhalanxII and En-Spells, but (possibly) with a weaker effect.

No thanks, RDM wants something in return. If you want want Accession to work outside your job, expect people to want something in return for you stepping in their domain. Every job has some territory that they cover and excel in. SMN is a unique job that has it's territory well defined as a magical pet job that can solo well in a large spectrum of applications. By contrast, RDM is dangerously close to having no territory left because most of our best toys are under lvl 50 and most of what we can do can be done better by other jobs. If you want something post lvl 50 from RDM, we want something Post lvl 50 from you. We want things like Adloquium and Immanence.

If you aren't interested in sharing with us, then you don't have any validity in any of your claims. You are gaining functionality at the expense of our job's territory. Why would anyone want a RDM in their group if a SCH can offer them all that we have and everything that a SCH has? They will just tell us to please change to SCH or get out of their group. No one picks up RDM for melee in larger groups. They get looked at because they enjoy a couple of unique-ish buffs and being a well rounded, but inferior mage.

[Swords]

I think we should be looking at this from the other side. Haste and Refresh should be Accession-able, but only by SCH main. And in that vein, give SCH access to PhalanxII and En-Spells, but (possibly) with a weaker effect.

That's pretty the opposite of what were wanting. Whole point of even attempting to make spells like Haste Accessionable to begin with, is too at least boost RDM's capabilities beyond what they currently are even IF other mage jobs will be capable of it as well. RDM unfortunately is in one of those positions we would likely take something even if it meant boosting the powers of our competition as well just to give us a better footing in a party setting. Frankly who could blame them either, when SE seems pretty fixed on keeping RDM's from really growing beyond subjob level spells.

[saevel]

We aren't a very strong job, we are just the job that is strong enough to be the weakest in the game and still have people play it.

Just make our AoE buffing surround things that is RDM specific and there shouldn't be a problem. No one is going to complain about AoE Haste. If they do, they should be taken out side to a back alley and re-educated.

MK I was being sarcastic.

That was in reference to one of the older SE "show and tells" where they would answer pre-selected questions. One of their questions was if they were going to give something to RDM after they buffed up WHM and RDM (this was back at 75). Their answer was "we consider RDM to be a very powerful job". This was back when RDM's only claim to fame was being able to solo tons of content and you had people running around making youtube video's. Since then RDM has been sh!t upon and SE has done their best to nerf it into oblivion, aka RNG style.

[Ciecle]

Just hoping that OP realizes that comparing rdm to blu is a stupid idea, blu is stuck on a 10-20 min timer not a 1.5min timer. the only spell blu has that they can AoE no matter what is stoneskin. we cant use accession at all.

Cause i'd hate to see that go towards rdm. 'Oh you guys want an ability like blu? Here you can have it's 20 min timer too! but your spells are still not accessionable!'

[Mirage]

I can get behind AoE temper, enspell2 and gain-stat, but I'm not too sure about haste.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I can get behind AoE temper, enspell2 and gain-stat, but I'm not too sure about haste.

Why not? They could allow Accession to work with haste, then give WHM Hasteaga.

[Glacont]

I Agree. To Use Accession for Main Scholar, or Sub for WHM and RDM (only), will go a long way.

[saevel]

Just hoping that OP realizes that comparing rdm to blu is a stupid idea, blu is stuck on a 10-20 min timer not a 1.5min timer. the only spell blu has that they can AoE no matter what is stoneskin. we cant use accession at all.

Cause i'd hate to see that go towards rdm. 'Oh you guys want an ability like blu? Here you can have it's 20 min timer too! but your spells are still not accessionable!'

Troll.

BLU gets a 10min JA that lets then aoe their next spell, and considering BLU's rather large repertoire of spells it's nothing to scoff at. That whole reference was that allowing RDM, and by extension SCH and WHM, to aoe more buffs wouldn't be game breaking and would allow more versatility.

As for the SMN's, I haven't had a single person yet mention inviting a SMN for hastega. In fact I always see SMN's go /RDM now and spam BP's for damage, not support.

[Ciecle]

Troll.

BLU gets a 10min JA that lets then aoe their next spell, and considering BLU's rather large repertoire of spells it's nothing to scoff at. That whole reference was that allowing RDM, and by extension SCH and WHM, to aoe more buffs wouldn't be game breaking and would allow more versatility.

As for the SMN's, I haven't had a single person yet mention inviting a SMN for hastega. In fact I always see SMN's go /RDM now and spam BP's for damage, not support.

really? Where's that 10 min JA at? Lets look at the wiki shall we?(Btw a blu 95 with the same job ability that you're talking about is not trolling kthx.) and let me bold the part that you're stupid enough to consider me trolling about.


Grants the effect of your next support Blue Magic spell to party members within range.
Obtained: Blue Mage Level 75
Recast Time: 20:00 (-2:30 minutes for every additional merit)
Duration: 1:00, or until the next blue magic spell is cast.
Affects only enhancing blue magic spells and may only be applied to party members.
Area of Effect is centered around the user with approximately 9' radius.
Fully merited, the minimum recast of Diffusion is 0:10:00.
Also affects Adventuring Fellows.

and I was actually being sincere about the JA thing, it's retarded that it's already a minimum 10 min recast on a JA. I'd rather not see Red mage have to suffer the same penalty.

Oh and as far as blu's list of spells, we only get a maximum of 20 spells or 60 points worth of spells at a single time(not including the JA spells). Our list of spells may reach 150 but we are only able to hold 20 of them and as of now 85% of blu's spells have a minimal useage.

Imagine how much you would whine and complain if rdm whm or sch got nerfed that much to where you can only set your 20 of your vast spell lists and have to wait 1 min before you can actually cast them.

[Economizer]

then give WHM Hasteaga.

Then give White Mage AND Red Mage Hastega. I'm sick of White Mage being the only one with AoE enhancing all the time. I can understand barspells, but when it comes to stuff like "Gain-STR", would it really hurt SE to give Red Mage the AoE version and have seven less spells in the game? While we're on it, Red Mage should also get Phalanxga and AoE spikes. >.>

Edit: Seriously, here is how you do it:

Make Haste Accessionable.

Hastega

Increases attack speed of party members in an area of effect.
Spell cost: 40 MP
Spell element: Wind
Target: Party Member
Magic skill: Enhancing Magic
Jobs: White Mage Lv. 80 / Red Mage Lv. 80

Price: 18,000 - 21,000 gil
Quelpia Selbina (H-9) Standard Merchant
Shohrun-Tuhrun Windurst Waters (G-7) Standard Merchant

And if you get complaints you could increase learn levels to 96 for one or both jobs, or increase the spell cost to 129 MP, but I see no reason for either. The point leaving it as is is this - at 80, White Mage, Red Mage, and Scholar would be able to Accession + Haste. While this will still have uses for Alliances, for parties, White Mage and Red Mage will be able to simply use Hastega, while Scholar can burn a strat to use Haste if they have White Mage sub (or at 96, Red Mage sub).

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Then give White Mage AND Red Mage Hastega. I'm sick of White Mage being the only one with AoE enhancing all the time. I can understand barspells, but when it comes to stuff like "Gain-STR", would it really hurt SE to give Red Mage the AoE version and have seven less spells in the game? While we're on it, Red Mage should also get Phalanxga and AoE spikes. >.>

Edit: Seriously, here is how you do it:

Make Haste Accessionable.

Hastega

Increases attack speed of party members in an area of effect.
Spell cost: 40 MP
Spell element: Wind
Target: Party Member
Magic skill: Enhancing Magic
Jobs: White Mage Lv. 80 / Red Mage Lv. 80

Price: 18,000 - 21,000 gil
Quelpia Selbina (H-9) Standard Merchant
Shohrun-Tuhrun Windurst Waters (G-7) Standard Merchant

And if you get complaints you could increase learn levels to 96 for one or both jobs, or increase the spell cost to 129 MP, but I see no reason for either. The point leaving it as is is this - at 80, White Mage, Red Mage, and Scholar would be able to Accession + Haste. While this will still have uses for Alliances, for parties, White Mage and Red Mage will be able to simply use Hastega, while Scholar can burn a strat to use Haste if they have White Mage sub (or at 96, Red Mage sub).

I want natural AoE enhancing magic, but SE just will not give it to RDM for some reason. It's got to the point they're pissing on RDM so much just allowing Haste to be Accessioned would be a massive improvement for RDM.

Personally I always assumed in the beginning SE was under the rules of "Mastery in said field = AoE" and have never understood RDM not getting AoE enhancing, but i'm past thinking SE will do anything but give us junk spells.

Phalanx is our line of spells, and yet they laughed at RDM when they made it castable on others only via merits and not even AoE then added SCH and gave them the ability to AoE it at the same potency and all this without merits. Then looking ahead to 99 SCH will gain Haste so /RDM will be the only job for SCH and they'll do it at the same potency, the same duration as our eAF armour and AoE every spell bar Haste unless SE changes it come lvl.99 which I wouldn't be surprised with.

[Seriha]

More for RDM getting a native option to AoE, sphere, or clone current buffs on a respectable timer. Though, letting Enspell IIs get AoE'd would ideally force SE to fix them as they had to do with T1s to work on caster's skill at time of cast rather than the attacker's on-strike.

Either way, RDM needed new things before even the cap increases. Getting so very little since while other jobs usually got at least one or two good things has widened the gaps that existed even then. So, while I'm for subjobs improving our flexibility, they shouldn't be a requirement to perform a native function of the main... which for RDM should be a little bit of everything.

[saevel]

really? Where's that 10 min JA at? Lets look at the wiki shall we?(Btw a blu 95 with the same job ability that you're talking about is not trolling kthx.) and let me bold the part that you're stupid enough to consider me trolling about.



and I was actually being sincere about the JA thing, it's retarded that it's already a minimum 10 min recast on a JA. I'd rather not see Red mage have to suffer the same penalty.

Oh and as far as blu's list of spells, we only get a maximum of 20 spells or 60 points worth of spells at a single time(not including the JA spells). Our list of spells may reach 150 but we are only able to hold 20 of them and as of now 85% of blu's spells have a minimal useage.

Imagine how much you would whine and complain if rdm whm or sch got nerfed that much to where you can only set your 20 of your vast spell lists and have to wait 1 min before you can actually cast them.

If RDM get even HALF of what BLU has, then I'd be very happy. You forget I am a BLU, I know ~exactly~ what a BLU is capable of, both in offensive roles and as the 2nd best healer in the game. Yes the dirty secret BLU's like to avoid answering is that SE has given you more support options then pure damage options. BLU/WHM gets P.Embrace, M.fruit and Cure IV, all on separate timers. You get Erasega on a ridiculously lot timer, something everyone else has to burn accession for. Stoneskinga, super blink, then all the mdef / mab buffs that you can aoe for the proper moment. You get your own self refresh and haste, and from /WHM you can cast the exact same haste that everyone else gets. One light aoe sleep, two black aoe sleeps, and one ST damage + sleep physical spell. Multiple forms of dispel, even dispel-ga.

And other then 5/5 Assimilation, what else would you be meriting? Enchainment would be the only other one with a decent effect, +50 TP during CA.

So yes, BLU has a 10min JA that makes it's buffs aoe. And it's not just haste, that would be one of the worst use's for it. BLU gets tons of damage reduction buffs, Saline Coat alone is gold. Several shells used to use Diffusion Saline Coat on Ultima (back at 75) to survive Citadel buster. Currently BLU is one of the most overpowered jobs, due to all the buffs SE keeps throwing at it. It gets a useful spell every update, so many useful spells that you can't even fit them all on at once. You get just about every JT in the game and JA's that enhance those spells to allow you to deal more damage, apply more status effects or just self SC. And need we go into a single BLU using Charged Whisker to farm pretty much anything they want.

Do not even try to attack the BLU reference. It was done deliberately to illustrate how aoe buffs for things like Haste already exist in the game and that it wouldn't be breaking anything.

[Darkvalkyr]

You allow BLU to aoe their spells to party members, you should allow RDM to do the same.

Every 10 to 20 minutes by using merits. And most of our buffs are very, very short that it's rare another job can't do it better.

Unless you want a merit JA that does the same thing at 99?

[saevel]

Every 10 to 20 minutes by using merits. And most of our buffs are very, very short that it's rare another job can't do it better.

Unless you want a merit JA that does the same thing at 99?

Vs ... absolutely nothing.

The threads about accession or a similar RDM ability, not Blue Mage. And don't even try to diminish the usefulness of Diffusion. With any other job it would be laughable but with what BLU has access to it's amazing. Barrier Tusk / Saline Coat at a critical moment or immediately prior to a zerg rush is invaluable.

[ManaKing]

More for RDM getting a native option to AoE, sphere, or clone current buffs on a respectable timer. Though, letting Enspell IIs get AoE'd would ideally force SE to fix them as they had to do with T1s to work on caster's skill at time of cast rather than the attacker's on-strike.

Either way, RDM needed new things before even the cap increases. Getting so very little since while other jobs usually got at least one or two good things has widened the gaps that existed even then. So, while I'm for subjobs improving our flexibility, they shouldn't be a requirement to perform a native function of the main... which for RDM should be a little bit of everything.

Oh look, we agree as usual. You must be right. NEEDING a subjob to do you job is a disgrace. Subs are supposed to add extra, not make up for what you job doesn't have.

[Ciecle]

Ok let me break every single piece of diarrhea you just spewed onto paper for you cause obviously you do not understand anything about any job and should probably quit while you're ahead(or behind depending on who you ask.)


If RDM get even HALF of what BLU has, then I'd be very happy. You forget I am a BLU, I know ~exactly~ what a BLU is capable of, both in offensive roles and as the 2nd best healer in the game.
Rdm has better enfeebles that last nearly double that of blu's. Gravity, Gravity II, Addle, Blind, Blind II, Dia, Dia II, Dia III, Diaga, Diaga II, Silence, Paralyze, Paralyze II, Bind, Bio, Bio II, Bio III, Sleep, Sleep II, Slow, Slow II, Break,Poison, Poison II
Now lets break every single spell down that you can instantly cast at any point in time you see fit:
Gravity/Gravity II: Lowers Evasion, and Increases Weight.
Addle: Increases spell casting time and decreases Macc.
Blind/Blind II: Decreases Physical Accuracy.
Dia Family: Decreases Defense and adds a Light Damage-over-time effect
Silence: Makes the enemy not able to cast spells
Paralyze/Paralyze II: Likely chance that your opponent will be Paralyzed and unable to attack
Bind: Stops the opponent from moving
Bio/II/III: Decreases Physical Attack and adds a dark damage-over-time effect
Sleep/Sleep II: Makes the opponent sleep. Sleep II can overwrite Sleep I
Slow/Slow II: Decreases opponent's physical attack speed.
Break: Stops the opponent from moving or casting. aka Bind II with a short silence effect that breaks on an attack.
Poison/Poison II: a plain damage-over-time spell

Depending on sub job, you can get even more enfeebles that are quick to cast and rdm would have a way easier time landing it.
Drk:
Absorb-Tp,Absorb-Dex/str/int/agi/chr/mnd/vit,Drain, Aspir, Stun, Poisonga

Blm:
Stun, Drain, Aspir, Sleepga, Choke, Shock, Rasp, Frost, Drown, Burn

Sch:
Drain(ga*), Aspir(ga*), Dispelga*, Sleepga*, Sleepga II*, Graviga*, Blindga* Bindga*, Poisonga*, Poisonga II*, Breakga*, Bioga*, Bioga II*

and since you want to say that you're also a blu,

Blu:
Sand spin, Sprout Smack, Wild Oats, sound blast, terror touch, stinking gas, geist wall, aweful eye, Soporific, sheep Song, and soon to be jettatura

And all of this is just enfeebles. as far as rdm being the 'Worst at everything' as you're implying, they sure have a lot of just 1 little thing.


Yes the dirty secret BLU's like to avoid answering is that SE has given you more support options then pure damage options. BLU/WHM gets P.Embrace, M.fruit and Cure IV, all on separate timers.You get Erasega on a ridiculously lot timer, something everyone else has to burn accession for. Stoneskinga, super blink, then all the mdef / mab buffs that you can aoe for the proper moment.
Here's the dirty little secret that you're also avoiding, Blu's AoE Erase, is self only. Blus have to run into range of damage to erase, we still have to burn a charge as /sch for erasega if you're not wanting to take damage. P.Embrace is a minor att+ and Matt+ and is a very big mp whore, and as far as all spells being on separate timers, you act like you've been playing with Pup. Stoneskin-ga is the same as everyone else just don't have to use one of your precious charges("OMG THAT'S SOOOO OVER POWERED!" Hi2U Smn). Haste from sub(big whoop a war/whm could still get the same haste.) that rdm isnt missing. Super blink is just that, BLINK yes it can save your life at times, but when it comes to anything that matters blink does not win at any point. Mdef/Mab buffs are nice, but when it gets down to the nitty gritty, the buffs do not last longer then 15 seconds, and in fights that last longer then 15 seconds, you still have the next magic spell from the enemy that you're not going to be able to block, if by chance you're even in a tank party to begin with(aka being in range to be taking damage on anything that matters).


You get your own self refresh and haste, and from /WHM you can cast the exact same haste that everyone else gets. One light aoe sleep, two black aoe sleeps, and one ST damage + sleep physical spell. Multiple forms of dispel, even dispel-ga.
so do whms, schs, and rdms, What's your point on that? Rdm has 2 Sleeps. those 2 sleeps combined last 150 seconds(subject to resists) with which sleep II can overwrite sleep. Blu, has 5 sleeps, Pinecone bomb: minor damage and a short lasting sleep(~30 seconds), Yawn: a Frontal AoE light based sleep(~60s), Sheep Song: an AoE short lasting Light based sleep(~30s), Soporific: A dark based sleep(~90s), and Dream Flower: a dark based sleep(~90s). All of which DO NOT overwrite each other.
as far as dispel goes, Rdm/Sch has Dispel, Dispelga*, Rdm/Blu has Dispel, and Geist Wall, and blank gaze. As far as blu is concerned, we have a total of 4 total dispels, Osmosis, Voracious trunk, Blank Gaze, and Geist Wall. a little hint, Voracious trunk and Osmosis both have a ~1min+ recast time rendering them nearly unusable in most situations that you need a ton of dispels, if you even have all 4 set right then and there.


And other then 5/5 Assimilation, what else would you be meriting? Enchainment would be the only other one with a decent effect, +50 TP during CA. i'd leave this one to your imagination. I will say this though, +25%matt/macc bonus to your next magical based blu spells is very sexy.


So yes, BLU has a 10min JA that makes it's buffs aoe. And it's not just haste, that would be one of the worst use's for it. BLU gets tons of damage reduction buffs, Saline Coat alone is gold. Several shells used to use Diffusion Saline Coat on Ultima (back at 75) to survive Citadel buster.
ok, 75 != 95/99. Things last 10 times longer then ultima not to mention, most people who were any good that had the pleasure of getting drawn in for cit.buster had a mdt-gear set and a whm with capped shellra V.


Currently BLU is one of the most overpowered jobs, due to all the buffs SE keeps throwing at it. It gets a useful spell every update, so many useful spells that you can't even fit them all on at once.
overpowered? ha. Blu still has to sit in the back of the line ups to set spells during voidwatch so they dont take damage so they can run in and proc. If you call that over powered, then you really need to reread the definition of that word. the 'useful' spells are only to keep the job up. with out the spells the job would instantly fall behind pup in damage. and that's a place most blus would rather not be.(sorry pups... I do like Pup just kind of have to throw you under the bus...)


You get just about every JT in the game and JA's that enhance those spells to allow you to deal more damage, apply more status effects or just self SC.

As mr. Camate has stated earlier in one of his many posts:(the post escapes my view at this time...) "Double attack isnt set at 10%, more like... 7%?" if that's not a slap in the face about your statement there, it should be. His statement, tells us that maybe not all of blu's JTs are set as high as they should be. Are you jealous that blu can self SC? Blm can self Sc> MB, Sam can self Sc double light, Sch can self SC > MB.


And need we go into a single BLU using Charged Whisker to farm pretty much anything they want. need we go into the fact that blm can cast AoE spells, that War can Fell cleve, that mnk can Cataclysm, that thf can Aeolin Edge?


Do not even try to attack the BLU reference. It was done deliberately to illustrate how aoe buffs for things like Haste already exist in the game and that it wouldn't be breaking anything.

Here's the small thing that you fail to notice, Smn had AoE buffs longer then Blu was around. and they're all buffs that everyone wants.

Don't start on the whole 'This isn't about that! it's about being able to accession haste and get cure V from SE!'

TL;DR: Saevel is wrong, Rdm doesn't need a job ability that allows buffs to be AoE'd. It would be better if they are allowed to get the actual AoE spells vs a horrid job ability that has a horrible recast added to it...

[Economizer]

Ok let me break every single piece of diarrhea you just spewed onto paper for you cause obviously you do not understand anything about any job and should probably quit while you're ahead(or behind depending on who you ask.)


Ignoring the petty attacks, lets go onto the content:


Diaga II


Red Mage has this spell? News to me.

Ignoring reduced potency even, most mobs are:


Gravity/Gravity II

Immune.


Silence

Immune.


Bind

Immune.

Regardless of what enfeebles any job has, a lot of this could be overhauled. For example, I was under the impression that SE was going to make the evasion down effect of gravity separate, at least on Gravity II, so that even high level NMs could get hit by it, but from test server reports, this seems not to have held true. Anyways, to go on:


Depending on sub job


While Red Mage does synergize with sub jobs more effectively then the majority of other jobs, a sub does not make the main, it only augments it.


Choke, Shock, Rasp, Frost, Drown, Burn


Scale horrifically, otherwise they could have a lot of potential.



as far as rdm being the 'Worst at everything' as you're implying

This one isn't a fact about the game, so I can't really confirm this as easily, but I would think that this is not what Saevel is implying, but I'd have to check with him first, since I don't want to put words into his mouth.


Here's the dirty little secret that you're also avoiding, Blu's AoE Erase, is self only. Blus have to run into range of damage to erase, we still have to burn a charge as /sch for erasega if you're not wanting to take damage.

Remind me what you have to do, aside from setting the spell, to make this work? I don't even care about Red Mage, I would like it if Esuna worked right without having to switched from Solace. Blue Mage might not be a better healer then White Mage, but they have a lot of nice toys for not being one.


P.Embrace is a minor att+ and Matt+ and is a very big mp whore


Plenilune Embrace has a better HP/MP ratio then Cure V, so don't complain about it sucking MP.


Blu, has 5 sleeps

All of which DO NOT overwrite each other.


Whirl of Rage, reapply sleep. BLU is one of the best jobs at crowd control, regardless of what other jobs can do.


Blu still has to sit in the back of the line ups to set spells during voidwatch so they dont take damage so they can run in and proc.

Crappy proc systems does not a crappy job make. Yes this is a major problem, but it does not make Blue Mage crappy.



Blm can self Sc> MB

Without /SAM, /DNC, consumables, or some superweapon how is this possible? Black Mage might even be able to outdamage a self skillchain and burst, but I've never heard of them being able to self chain short of the non-Black Mage methods listed.

-

Ultimately, I'm not really following this argument that closely, but if you are saying that BLU isn't a very powerful job, or incredibly versatile, then that is an outright lie. I think that Blue Mage is a good benchmark of what other jobs should be, and it is only natural for other jobs to emulate the success of Blue Mage - the job is fun, powerful, and even something to be jealous of.

I think the issue of this thread isn't necessarily that some job is under/overpowered, but that SE's treatment of Red Mage (but more importantly, "Enhancing Magic" in general) has not been consistent with what it should be, and we have proof that they can be fairly consistent with jobs like Blue Mage.

I've already said quite a bit about my thoughts on Haste, Phalanx, Gain/Boost, and a slew of other things, so I don't really need to repeat them - ultimately I'd like Enhancing Magic to get better, regardless of what other jobs that have the ability to buff are capable of - be it a COR, BLU, BRD or whatever.

[Ciecle]

I'm sorry, none of that was ment towards you econ, unless you're saevel. Diaga II was in the .dats is why i said it was there.

I thought SE gave blm something that allows them to close SCs with elemental magic... guess i was only thinking of sch.
and ignoring the fact that you choose to say that most NMs are immune to certain debuffs, because when it gets down to it, most enemies are immune to the good enfeebles...

it's not that blu cant do that with sleeps. but what's the point in doing that... you're just increasing the chance of your sleep being resisted if the battles keep going... Yes you reset the timer on sleep, and yes you deal damage in the process with a stun, but if the mob is a pld, that can be dangerous... Most people tend to forget blu can only have a maximum of 20 spells and still has to wait 1 min after reseting them.

I'm not saying blu is not a powerful job. people can vouch for how well geared my blu is and how well i play the job. I'm trying to say that people need to take a step back and realize that comparing apples to oranges is not a good idea. Rdm !=! Blu and people really need to stop trying to make rdm into what blu is. vice versa. Both jobs excel at what they're good at. Rdm's happens to be mainly enfeebles. not sword swinging, not healing, not dark magic, not elemental magic either. Granted they use to be able to do all of those things very well, it's just annoying to see all the crying and whining about Cure V, regen iv, more enfeebles, more job abilities, and more melee abilities...

[saevel]

She/he's just screaming. Pretty much everything she posted was either ad-hominem or factually incorrect. The Diaga II reference alone say they have never actually played RDM now even given it a look.

Most BLU's leveled BLU to get away from RDM, they would absolutely hate the idea of being forced back into a healer / support role. I'm talking fanatical level hate here, you can't reason with that.

BLU gets three medium to high potency cures all on separate timers. The base cure power of M.Fruit and P.Embrace was balanced using 0 healing magic skill, once you add healing magic skill it then surpasses Cure V, heck P.Embrace even has a nice +attack / magic attack bonus tacked on. Unlike RDm who can only do Cure IV -> Cure III -> Cure IV, a BLU can cycle P.Embrace -> M.Fruit -> Cure IV for faster and cheaper healing then a RDM could even dream of. They can go /WHM for haste support if needed or the better /SCH for significantly higher healing magic skill and another form of aoe stoneskin / regen II along with a potent Drain / Aspir. LA/DA does not effect blue magic skill, meaning the BLU can be in DA mode and still get cheap fruits / embraces off. Healing Breeze was amazing at 75, Curaga II is a 120MP spell, Breeze which has the same cure power is only 55MP. It's since got weaker but SE then introduced White Wind which is crushingly powerful. WoP is aoe erasega, it has a 20s recast timer and 36mp cost, BLU gets native FC and haste so that timer can be lower, much lower. No other job in the game can remove status ailments as fast as a BLU.

WW is based on max HP not current HP, meaning a BLU should macro in as much +cure pot and +HP gear as possible for it.

The formula for calculating HP recovered is floor(MaxHP/7)*2.
1500 HP gives 428 base cure power, after some +cure pot you can get 500~ish aoe healing for 145MP, or slightly more expensive then a single Curaga II which is 200~220 with the same +cure pot. Closest comparison is Curaga III at 180MP.

Leave it to a BLU to think 106MP P.Embrace is a "MP whore" compared to WHM's 135MP Cure V. Their so comfortable with ridiculously cheap spells that they never stepped back and saw what every other class had to deal with. Just imagine if the heavy damage BLU spells cost 180~200+ MP each.


This one isn't a fact about the game, so I can't really confirm this as easily, but I would think that this is not what Saevel is implying, but I'd have to check with him first, since I don't want to put words into his mouth.

Mediocre at everything =/= worst at everything. RDM's ability set at 95 is largely the exact same as it was at 75, minor tier ups like Refresh II and the Emp gear making buffs last longer aside, the proposed "support" play style is the same. Haste -> Cure IV -> Paralyze II *RESIST* -> Cure IV -> Cure IV -> Slow II -> Haste -> Dia III and rinse / repeat. Cure IV is no longer enough on it's own, and SE has nerfed enfeebles to mean nearly nothing, other then Dia III. When you combine these two facts, and they are facts as everyone has pretty much stated, RDM really starts to become a dead job. You can try really hard, get the best melee and mage gear possible, macro long complex macros to optimize for those spells, and you'd still not scratch what a AF WHM or BLU could do.

Rather then complaining I've been looking for things to politely request SE to add / modify. They do read these forums, they make notes, and while they may not listen nor have the time to care, occasionally we can get a message through. If we keep putting the word out that we need something more, eventually they'll do ~something~.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

The funniest/saddest thing is: Whether you're a melee enthusiast or prefer the magical side of RDM the biggest fix to both these sides is to kill the Enhancing cycle by giving RDM AoE enhancing capability. In no game should part of a job be decided by the need to cast the same spell on the same people every 2+ minutes.

Doing this would fix a major issue allowing focus on fixing other things such as Enfeebling Magic, Melee Skill etc....

[saevel]

Here cure calculator.

http://members.shaw.ca/pizza_steve/cure/Cure_Calculator.html

At this you can see a BLU's M.fruit destroying Cure V for efficiency, P.embrace is just M.Fruit +110, it rivals Cure V in sheer potency.

At 95 /WHM gives 144 healing magic skill and /SCH gives 310. At 140 MND 90VIT and 18% cure potency (not terribly difficult to achieve) you get.

226 Wild Carrot at 37MP
238 Cure III at 46MP (44 under LA)
481 Cure IV at 88MP (80 under LA)
607 Magic Fruits at 72MP.
717 P.Embrace at 106MP, +Attack / Magic Attack bonus.

In comparison,
843 Cure V at 135 MP (122 with LA)

Another thing of note is that both M.Fruit and P.Embrace are just Cure V (-200 cure power for MF, -90 for PE), they share in it's soft / hard caps being significantly higher then what is possible with Cure IV / III. Also if / when SE alters the cure formula, this can/will directly boost Blue healing magic.

[saevel]

The funniest/saddest thing is: Whether you're a melee enthusiast or prefer the magical side of RDM the biggest fix to both these sides is to kill the Enhancing cycle by giving RDM AoE enhancing capability. In no game should part of a job be decided by the need to cast the same spell on the same people every 2+ minutes.

Doing this would fix a major issue allowing focus on fixing other things such as Enfeebling Magic, Melee Skill etc....

No sh!t, its was getting pretty ridiculous back at 75. Now with full emp gear it's mildly tolerable cycling haste around, really wish I could do more to boost the overall capability of the group. Either through buffing party members or by crippling the targets stats. If SE would create a RDM native version of the ele DoT's (Choke / Burn / ect..), have them based on enhancing magic and with significantly better INT scaling and no DoT effect, then this would greatly serve our purposes.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Elemental_Debuff

At 150INT your only doing -13 stat at 5hp/tick. Doesn't seem to go any higher then that. -13 AGI is -6.5 evasion or +3.25% hit rate ... yeah whatever. Depending on your group you could be raising everyone's crit rate, or not doing a damn thing to it. Also due to their elemental alignments you can't stack -VIT and -AGI. Now if they had ones that did -20/30/40 to the enemy status, then it would rock, even if you could only have one up at a time you could still pick the point to exploit the most.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Sadly, one of the best debuffs at the moment for harder Nms is Impact, which is Cloak only.

[saevel]

Sadly, one of the best debuffs at the moment for harder Nms is Impact, which is Cloak only.

How hard is this to land for full effect / duration? I've been debating going out and getting a clock for RDM/SCH with parsimony. Are NM's terribly resistant to it, or does it follow regular elemental magic accuracy rules?

[Neisan_Quetz]

Only information I have is from others since I've never seen it (seen more mails..) Not sure for VW but most other NMs don't seem to resist the effect heavily, last for 3 mins when it does.

[saevel]

Only information I have is from others since I've never seen it (seen more mails..) Not sure for VW but most other NMs don't seem to resist the effect heavily, last for 3 mins when it does.

Then I guess I'll be spamming Shinryu soon. Still need Mail / Helm for my PLD so this is a good excuse to spend crour on my alt. Need to save mine for Apademak spamming.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Just throwing this out there but maybe SCH and RDM can get a Job Trait unique to them at lvl 99 allowing them to expand upon what is accessionable? Although I can see how this can be taken as encouraging buff-cycles while at the same time lessening having to keep said cycles up. Or make it into two separate JAs and have them mirror WHM's Afflatus JAs, maybe have one unlock the accession restriction on buffs and one JA that allows buffs to be immune to Dispel for X amount of attempts.

That way each stance allows for you to buff and to do so excellently and in ways a WHM cant since they can already heal in ways that you can't. Of course that is just an idea im throwing out there but RDM and SCH both need something since MP efficency was a niche now taken away as the game plays with larger numbers then as it once did. I think that SCH and RDM will carve their final territory at the end of the job road map in the realms of buffs/debuffs and DoTs.

**I understand the above JA proposals are broken in the vacuous state delivered so naturally if such things were in game they'd have certain riders attached to not be so broken.

But RDM and SCH DO NEED something to happen since all jobs should be excellent at the things they do and SCH and RDM along with other jobs just aren't there yet....but hey what a thing it would be if they ever do make it there. Imagine what NMs would have to take the field to be deemed "endgame content" at that point?

or not

Ignore me!!

The issue with this is that gaining a JA/Trait to unlock Accession for RDM would make no sense as it'd be a job buff for a subjob bonus.

It's why I want a unique (I say unique) buff for RDM to do AoE effect buffs, while I respect it removes a bonus aspect of SCH, I just don't think Buff Cycles are good gameplay, I'd be open to just Phalanxga, Hasteaga and Refreshga I-II. Though ideally Stoneskinga and such would be nice, I'd be fine with SCH still having unique buffs for themselves to cast or as /SCH

[Alpheus]

Hence the lack of sleep induced idiocy of needing a main job trait to make a subjob selection actually work lol

*edit* think u responded as i re-read and proceeded to delete the post or something.

heading to bed long day but point well taken tho

[Greatguardian]

Here cure calculator.

http://members.shaw.ca/pizza_steve/cure/Cure_Calculator.html

At this you can see a BLU's M.fruit destroying Cure V for efficiency, P.embrace is just M.Fruit +110, it rivals Cure V in sheer potency.

At 95 /WHM gives 144 healing magic skill and /SCH gives 310. At 140 MND 90VIT and 18% cure potency (not terribly difficult to achieve) you get.

226 Wild Carrot at 37MP
238 Cure III at 46MP (44 under LA)
481 Cure IV at 88MP (80 under LA)
607 Magic Fruits at 72MP.
717 P.Embrace at 106MP, +Attack / Magic Attack bonus.

In comparison,
843 Cure V at 135 MP (122 with LA)

Another thing of note is that both M.Fruit and P.Embrace are just Cure V (-200 cure power for MF, -90 for PE), they share in it's soft / hard caps being significantly higher then what is possible with Cure IV / III. Also if / when SE alters the cure formula, this can/will directly boost Blue healing magic.

This is bad math. You're using a BLU's Cure Potency gear on a WHM to get those results. WHM is absolutely not going to be rocking 18% Cure Potency =/.

The correct comparison looks more like this:

BLU w/your stats:
Wild Carrot: 226 HP / 37 MP Ratio = 6.108
Magic Fruit: 607 HP / 72 MP Ratio = 8.43
Pl. Embrace: 717 HP / 106 MP Ratio = 6.76

WHM w/ 150MND 100VIT 400 Healing Skill 50% Cure Pot (not hard outside Abyssea):
Cure2: 147 HP / 22 MP Ratio = 6.68
Cure3: 307 HP / 42 MP Ratio = 7.31
Cure4: 622 HP / 80 MP Ratio = 7.77
Cure5: 1095 HP / 122 MP Ratio = 8.98

This is excluding the 35% Solaceskin bonus each cure receives.

BLU's cures do not rival WHM in either potency or efficiency using your prescribed stats. I don't know jack shit about BLU gear availability, so if they can get more Cure Potency please be sure to adjust your numbers accordingly.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Blu maxes out at... ~32% Cure Potency counting all augmented gear I believe. ~24% without. 19% with apollo's/oretenia's/serpentes. ... How did you get 18% anyway?

[Greatguardian]

Switching BLU to 24% Cure Potency changes their numbers to:

Wild Carrot: 238/37 R = 6.43
M Fruit: 637/72 R = 8.84
P Embrace: 753/106 = 7.10

It comes closer to WHM's efficiency, but still does not beat it - and doesn't come close in pure potency, still ignoring solaceskin.

Let's try maxed augmented gear, or 32% Cure Pot:

Wild Carrot: 253/37 R = 6.84
M Fruit: 678/72 R = 9.41
P Embrace: 801/106 = 7.55

Now, if we ignore Solaceskin, Magic Fruit becomes more efficient than Cure V. Plenuline Embrace, however, is still less efficient than even Cure IV and caps out significantly lower than a decent Cure V, let alone a Cure VI. If we add Solaceskin to the mix, WHM's potency starts to look like the following:

Cure2: 198 HP / 22 MP Ratio = 9.0
Cure3: 414 HP / 42 MP Ratio = 9.85
Cure4: 839 HP / 80 MP Ratio = 10.49
Cure5: 1478 HP / 122 MP Ratio = 12.11

Yeah. BLU isn't even close if you take Solace into account - neither in Efficiency, HP cured, or total HP saved (skin+cure).

[Swords]

Even with WHM having AF3+2 pants and Cureskin giving them the advantage in both mp efficiency and curing ability, BLU is the only job with the scope to even reach an acceptable secondary healer if nothing more due to the fact they have multiple mid-high level cures available to them. SCH can pull out a decent Cure IV, but falls behind without the support of another mid/high level cure to cycle through, which RDM also suffers from.

Anyways, not trying to get into the middle of your argument, but aside from numbers I think the whole point Saevel was trying to make was...

"BLU while limited in it's own aspects, gets multiple tools in multiple forms at a level much better than any jobs besides specialists in their respective field, putting them at a much higher tier of versatility and capability than other jobs like RDM which are supposed to be specialists in the respective field of versatility."

[Greatguardian]

Holy crap, I forgot AF3+2 pants. That would vastly change the HP:MP ratios for all WHM spells, meaning BLU doesn't even come close to touching them. What the hell, Saevel?

I think the issue that people are forgetting with BLU, though, is the fact that they can only set so many spells at one time and there is a delay after any sort of changes wherein the BLU can't cast anything at all. People seem to underestimate the value of this time. Arts are the single biggest reason that SCH is such a shitty mage, and even those are more lenient than BLU spell setting. BLU loses a ton of versatility by having to set their spells for a given role and then be stuck in them, unable to change their role instantly on-the-fly if they need to.

As a backup healer, they have decent spells, but if they're set as a backup healer then they are only a backup healer unless they want to be useless for a full minute while resetting spells. They can't handle backup healing while doing crowd control, enfeebling, and contributing worthwhile nuke damage. That doesn't happen. Who can do that? Red Mage.

[Swords]

Holy crap, I forgot AF3+2 pants. That would vastly change the HP:MP ratios for all WHM spells, meaning BLU doesn't even come close to touching them. What the hell, Saevel?


Really though, is this so much about WHM. Thought the whole point he brought up BLU to begin with was to point out it has better capability than either RDM or SCH at healing and enhancing even if BLU's role would be more or less restricted to it (which at the moment RDM pretty much is).

[Greatguardian]

Really though, is this so much about WHM. Thought the whole point he brought up BLU to begin with was to point out it has better capability than either RDM or SCH at healing and enhancing even if BLU's role would be more or less restricted to it (which at the moment RDM pretty much is).


At this you can see a BLU's M.fruit destroying Cure V for efficiency, P.embrace is just M.Fruit +110, it rivals Cure V in sheer potency.


In comparison,
843 Cure V at 135 MP (122 with LA)

Another thing of note is that both M.Fruit and P.Embrace are just Cure V (-200 cure power for MF, -90 for PE), they share in it's soft / hard caps being significantly higher then what is possible with Cure IV / III. Also if / when SE alters the cure formula, this can/will directly boost Blue healing magic.

Don't look at me. I jumped in because he was using terrible, shitty math to prove a point and I corrected it. If he wants to make some point completely unrelated to WHM, that's fine, but he doesn't get a free pass if he tries to bullshit his way through it.

My point stands, however, with regards to RDM. RDM can cap Cure Potency now, so you'd still have to compare the non-Solaceskin numbers to BLU, with the exception of Cure V.

This becomes:
Pimped BLU using all augmented gear for 32% Cure Pot:

Wild Carrot: 253/37 R = 6.84
M Fruit: 678/72 R = 9.41
P Embrace: 801/106 = 7.55

Normal BLU using 24% Cure Pot:

Wild Carrot: 238/37 R = 6.43
M Fruit: 637/72 R = 8.84
P Embrace: 753/106 = 7.10

RDM with 50% Cure Pot:

Cure2: 147 HP / 22 MP Ratio = 6.68
Cure3: 307 HP / 42 MP Ratio = 7.31
Cure4: 622 HP / 80 MP Ratio = 7.77

BLU is pretty easily more potent than RDM, but it loses out on a ton of versatility if it's spec'd for healing alone.

Edit: This is also ignoring the fact that Embrace has twice the recast of normal cures.

[ManaKing]

Both jobs excel at what they're good at. Rdm's happens to be mainly enfeebles.

WRONG. BLU is a job that has some limits to the flexibility it can offer in a single battle, but never lacks for potency on what they have available. (If you pick a bad bunch of spells then your BLU can look pretty bad, but that is user error, not job inadequacy.)

RDM on the other hand has no potency what-so-ever that competes with other jobs. Enfeebles? More than half of our library has been disabled from serious play in this game through straight immunity. What is left over? Dia 3 that you could get a DRG!? to get a better defense down debuff. You can't even use Saboteur to increase the defense down effect of Dia 3. Paralyze and Slow II that always suffer from reduced potency or immunity from real NMs. Blind II that doesn't matter because the accuracy for real NMs will not be affected by it. Poison II's damage was outdated at 75, Saboteur didn't change that because the HP for NMs went up exponentially.

So yeah we have full potency at one thing that SE decided they were going to destroy when they moved past 75. You're right apple and oranges, as in BLU is a good job aka an apple and RDM is an orange aka a broken job. (If you like oranges better than reverse them for your preference.) One of these jobs is blatantly better than the other and BLU doesn't want to admit that it is in a pretty sweet spot because they have to reset spells if they want to change out from their good spells to their other good spells....


not sword swinging, not healing, not dark magic, not elemental magic either. Granted they use to be able to do all of those things very well, it's just annoying to see all the crying and whining about Cure V, regen iv, more enfeebles, more job abilities, and more melee abilities...

You're right RDM has access to around 120 spells, BLU has access to around 150 spells. Since 75 RDM has gotten 20 spells, BLU has gotten 37. It's like SE has taken a vested interested in one of these jobs and left the other one out in the cold.

RDM has access to 21 job traits, BLU has access to 32. Those 21 job traits are distributed into 8 different traits that we just get higher tiers of. BLUs only repeating trait is Clear Mind which goes up to IV on BLU and only up to III on RDM, so realistically BLU has access to 29 unique job traits. On top of that, BLU can choose which job traits they want so they can custom tailor themselves for whatever task is ahead. Furthermore, BLU has access to job traits that belong to a wide variety of jobs, not just mage jobs. SE has no problem putting access those job traits on BLU, but the RDM wants them, they are scorned for wanting things that other people have even though we are described as a jack-of-all-trades job. I guess that means that a BLU must be a Queen-of-all-trades job since they are clearly allowed to get whatever they want from other jobs, while RDM is not.

RDMs are asking for more things all the time because what we are supposed to excel at is broken and everything else we have is not just behind BLU in potency, but everyone. I personally don't want Cure V, but upgrades to melee and nuking would be appreciated, since we don't believe that enfeebling will be fixed anytime soon. Until Enfeebling is fixed or we get upgrades in potency for other things, then RDM will remain at the end of the line, a place BLU is nowhere near.

[ManaKing]

Sadly, one of the best debuffs at the moment for harder Nms is Impact, which is Cloak only.

That's RDM only right, because we are the best enfeeblers? Pretty much every job with MP can use it? It's not even based off of Enfeebling magic? It's based off of Elemental Magic? /SCH on any job which enough MP to cast Impact is better for Impact than RDM main?

Well good thing we aren't blatantly getting left behind again....WAIT A MINUTE!

[Ketaru]

Such misplaced rage at SCH and BLU right now. Especially since SCH itself is in a pretty terrible position right now and, as far as the rest of the game is concerned, RDM and BLU don't fill the same spot in a group.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Such misplaced rage at SCH and BLU right now. Especially since SCH itself is in a pretty terrible position right now and, as far as the rest of the game is concerned, RDM and BLU don't fill the same spot in a group.

Think the issue with BLU for some people is exactly that it could fill RDM's slot if you wanted it to, as for SCH it's because they got Accession after so many years RDM's were asking for it.

[ManaKing]

There is no rage at SCH. It's simple, if you want something that will work for everyone, fine. If you want specific buffs for your job that directly take away from another job, no thanks. If you want your job to be better, think of ways that makes your job better without making other jobs worse. There is no reason you should be able to Accession things that aren't part of your job. It doesn't make any sense. If you want something from another job, you should be willing to share or at least support them in their own growth.

As far as BLU goes, you have a job that works. RDM has a job that is blatantly broken. Don't try to tell us that we don't need buffs when your job actually gets improvements to itself past 75 and ours isn't. It comes across as hypocritical and in bad taste.

[Swords]

As far as BLU goes, you have a job that works. RDM has a job that is blatantly broken. Don't try to tell us that we don't need buffs when your job actually gets improvements to itself past 75 and RDM hasn't really received anything overly significant in 8 years. It comes across as hypocritical and in bad taste.

Fixed for clarity.

[ManaKing]

Fixed for clarity.

Sorry, you're right, I was being vague.

[saevel]

Really though, is this so much about WHM. Thought the whole point he brought up BLU to begin with was to point out it has better capability than either RDM or SCH at healing and enhancing even if BLU's role would be more or less restricted to it (which at the moment RDM pretty much is).

Yeah kinda finding it funny that people arguing WHM vs BLU when I clearly said BLU is the second best healer in the game by a very large margin. A BLU can actually main heal a party, no sh!t if they dress in mage gear and use mage spells / JT's then they can actually heal just fine. Having three separate mid to high powered cures is the reason, SCH, RDM and every other job in the game (/WHM) has to wait for Cure IV's timer, BLU on the other hand will be spamming fruit / embrace and using Cure IV as a backup for when the first two timers are down. Embrace for 700+ and Fruit for 600+ at 18% potency is ridiculous, especially when you consider it's cost. WHM is obviously the best, but BLU crush's RDM, SCH, SMN and DNC for healing.

[Neisan_Quetz]

In a single party. Screw the DPS drop, get a whm if you want a healer.

[saevel]

In a single party. Screw the DPS drop, get a whm if you want a healer.

Umm ... WTF?

What DPS drop, if the BLU is there to main heal, then their there to heal not do damage. Although they would do more damage then a WHM would. For the same reason, if a RDM is there to main heal then they shouldn't be meleeing either.

If your saying "get a WHM" then you immediately forfeit your argument for RDM getting Cure V because you only want one healer in the game. BLU can already main heal just fine, they don't because their too scared of being forced back into RDM's shoes if the general population found out they could heal just fine. Or between you arguing that RDM should get Cure V so there would be more main healers, and then your statement to just use a WHM and forgo any alternate healers, did you have some sort of change of heart.

Cognitive Dissonance, ain't it a b****.

[Neisan_Quetz]

If you're looking for an actual main healer for something moderately difficult, you're not looking for Blu. If it is not a moderately difficult mob the Blu doesn't need to use cure pot main/sub. If you are doing a moderately difficult mob and are looking for a Blu main healer, you have problems. I've given up asking for Cure V because SE is stubborn/stupid over the issue nothing else.

[Greatguardian]

Yeah kinda finding it funny that people arguing WHM vs BLU when I clearly said BLU is the second best healer in the game by a very large margin. A BLU can actually main heal a party, no sh!t if they dress in mage gear and use mage spells / JT's then they can actually heal just fine. Having three separate mid to high powered cures is the reason, SCH, RDM and every other job in the game (/WHM) has to wait for Cure IV's timer, BLU on the other hand will be spamming fruit / embrace and using Cure IV as a backup for when the first two timers are down. Embrace for 700+ and Fruit for 600+ at 18% potency is ridiculous, especially when you consider it's cost. WHM is obviously the best, but BLU crush's RDM, SCH, SMN and DNC for healing.

You're the one who compared it to WHM in the first place, broski. BLU doesn't even come close to WHM in terms of efficiency (though you claimed otherwise, quite loudly), and you were using terribad gear potency comparisons even in the scope of BLU vs RDM. No RDM worth half a shit is sitting on a measly 18% Cure Potency.

Good job completely avoiding all of the actual math proving you wrong, though, and choosing instead to make swipes at people in the second person.

[Neisan_Quetz]

He is sitting on 18% cure potency though, while sword swinging with augmented gear.

[ManaKing]

Sigh, I'm still pretty sure Saeval is just saying that BLU is the 2nd best healer in the game. The need to show that WHM is still clearly first seems irrelevant since WHM is clearly the best healer in the game. I'm sure the reason Savael is pointing out BLU is because it has cures in excess of Cure IV, which no one else in the game has. I don't need to use numbers to prove this, I just need to look at BLUs spell list to realize that it is correct, regardless of the fact that I already knew it.

I'm still pushing for Composure to do more for us than it is right now. If not composure, then something else to be added to RDM. Just like RDM shouldn't be linked to a subjob to do their job, they shouldn't be tied down to their set bonus from their AF3+2 to make a school of magic we have a B skill rating, relevant.

Get us some Job abilities and Job Traits SE. We had Chainspell and Convert only, for too long for you to continue this game. If you want RDM to keep trying to break things, the easiest way you can encourage this is by not giving us enough personal power to rival other jobs. Make us happy by giving us the same treatment you've been giving other jobs and most of us will stop trying stupid things like kiting an NM for 4 hours. There will still be idiots that will attempt it, but the rest of us that actually have some respect for others will not.

[cidbahamut]

Get us some Job abilities and Job Traits SE. We had Chainspell and Convert only, for too long for you to continue this game. If you want RDM to keep trying to break things, the easiest way you can encourage this is by not giving us enough personal power to rival other jobs. Make us happy by giving us the same treatment you've been giving other jobs and most of us will stop trying stupid things like kiting an NM for 4 hours. There will still be idiots that will attempt it, but the rest of us that actually have some respect for others will not.

There is so much wrong with this statement. You clearly aren't very knowledgeable about Red Mage soloing, or game design in general.

[ManaKing]

There is so much wrong with this statement. You clearly aren't very knowledgeable about Red Mage soloing, or game design in general.

Thank you for the insult. You added so much to the constructive nature of this forum post. Your contribution has been noted and as it is nothing, you will be remembered as such.

The personal power of a RDM is the ability to take longer to solo things that other jobs can solo right now. Instead of RDMs hidden class feature being, can solo things if you have the time of day to do so; it is changed to you are weaker than other jobs that can solo what you are trying to solo all day, but they do it in less time. SE has given people significantly less incentive to try to kite NMs for long durations of time by breaking most of the tools that people used to accomplish it.

Now if you are using some kind of speed hack where it doesn't matter what SE does to gravity or bind anything else for that matter, because you aren't playing by the rules anyways. But I still like playing this game without cheating because it is more fun for me. The only time it isn't fun is when I'm around people that aren't.

What myself and all the constructive people on this forum are trying to do is come up with alternatives to what RDM can do now to have it's own specialty, since we obviously won't be continuing as we were. We are thinking of improvements that would benefit RDM in a practical party setup so that it actually has a place in end game content. If all you want to do is nitpick, nay-say, and insult, then there isn't anything I can say to you because what you seem to be getting satisfaction out of is not the improvement of your job.

[Greatguardian]

Gravity has been pretty useless even without speed hacks for a long time now.

[Ketaru]

Now if you are using some kind of speed hack where it doesn't matter what SE does to gravity or bind anything else for that matter, because you aren't playing by the rules anyways. But I still like playing this game without cheating because it is more fun for me. The only time it isn't fun is when I'm around people that aren't.


Much more constructive to just insinuate that somebody who doesn't agree with you must be cheating...

...

...just saying.

[Rukkirii]

Red mage was designed to be proficient in the ways of enfeebling magic and single-target/self enhancements. Magic spells were split so that red mages focused on single-target magic, while white mages excelled in AoE magic.

In regards to Haste specifically, the stats surrounding the spell were created for a single target in mind, so for balance reasons we have no plans to make it possible to turn it into an AoE spell.

Due to this, we do not have plans of allowing red mage spells to simply be changed into AoE spells.

[Ketaru]

You did it for Enspell Is, Barspells, and Phalanx...

[Alhanelem]

In regards to Haste specifically, the stats surrounding the spell were created for a single target in mind, so for balance reasons we have no plans to make it possible to turn it into an AoE spell.Virtually every other spell that was only available as single target "for balance reasons" was eventually made AoE by SCH and /SCH

Haste being single target only is not a balance issue, it's just a hassle, and it's one of the reasons some people I know stopped playing WHM.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Ah, got ya! So Hasteaga doesn't exist for SMN right......

Another "We don't want RDM to be good at anything so forget it" from the Devs.

Thanks for confirming it though, I wont even bother getting RDM to 99 no matter how easy EXP is.

[Quetzacoatl]

Red mage was designed to be proficient in the ways of enfeebling magic and single-target/self enhancements. Magic spells were split so that red mages focused on single-target magic, while white mages excelled in AoE magic.

So...that's the end of Red Mage, eh? I don't care whether RDM gets Haste-ga or not, but seriously?

Enfeebling will still be looked down as useless, despite whatever Square-Enix does to reduce Enfeebling resistance on higher-tier monsters so that the job is partly relieved of its disparities (come on, we know Square-Enix well enough to know that whatever good things they do will be very minimal and will result as situational at best), and now the job has spells that either don't contribute to party situations or has spells where other jobs or effects can do Red Mage's job for them...

There is now absolutely no reason to bring a Red Mage to anything. Tell the Devs we said thanks for putting Red Mage in the grave. Thank goodness I made the final decision to make DRK and BLU my main LS jobs from now on.

[Mizuharu]

Firstly, why are the RDMs complaining about a SCH job ability...? You all complained about if we had the level cap as 100 and that Composure would be made subjob-accessible. Then go off and complain about a spell not stacking with something that, with the old level cap, was SCH exclusive? And does this mean that if a spell isn't Accession compatible, you'd rather not waste the time casting it? Ex; casting AoE Refresh I rather than Refresh II.

Secondly, if you honestly have trouble keeping a haste cycle going, lol. RDM is a support-role job in a party situation. At a time, it could main heal effectively, but that has come and gone. RDM (again, in a party/alliance role) hinders the target's actions while applying supporting magics onto allies and healing/nuking when they're primary role has been fulfilled.

Hastega isn't going to help this job. (And I loved RDM from day 1 of my time in FFXI) It needs a great number of things over Hastega... Cure V would be more useful than Hastega, but everyone's seem to have given up on that since the devs have very clearly stated no job, other than WHM, would get it. (Which, actually, if you take the time to get a cure potency + set for BLU, you're the second best healer in the game... Sub sch for -na spells and the healing skill increase.)

I agree that RDM needs some major fixes. And, from the looks of it, will be one of the last (if not already last) jobs to get patch-work done. But Hastega? Really? Leave it to SMNs/BRDs...

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Since this thread will now be dead...

When will they fix the , after everyone's name on the "New Posts" page, very annoying!

:o That is how you handle certain posts.

[Quetzacoatl]

RDM (again, in a party/alliance role) hinders the target's actions while applying supporting magics onto allies and healing/nuking when they're primary role has been fulfilled.

Sorry, but that was 20 levels ago. Try doing that now.

[Muras]

In regards to Haste specifically, the stats surrounding the spell were created for a single target in mind, so for balance reasons we have no plans to make it possible to turn it into an AoE spell.

Could you perhaps ask the Dev team to elaborate on this a bit for us? Because technically spells like Blink/Stoneskin/Aquaveil/Enspells/Phalanx, which are self target only compared to Haste which is an "everyone" spell, were also obviously designed to be "single target", but here we are with it being AoE-able with Accession anyways. So really, that explanation doesn't really explain anything. I understand Haste is a very powerful stat, but because Haste's recast is low, we're still able Haste everyone in a PT. It'd just be nice if it could be AoE'd to ease up an already busy job.

I remember back when Lv80 cap was released a lot of people were really excited about being able to accession Haste, only to have those hopes crushed later on. As far as I can see it myself, there's no problems with Haste being AoE-able through Accession... It's not like the base stats are changed and people are suddenly swinging like they're under the effects of Hundred Fists. The only benefit is it just makes the mage's life a little easier, or rather, makes the game a little less tedious. How is that a bad thing?

I feel at times that the only reason it can't be Accessioned is because people were actually excited about it pre-80 and talked about it a lot making the devs think "Do they know something we don't? ...Better nerf it to be safe..."

If I could just make a small request to the dev team... Could we perhaps actually get explanations on why they do the things they do, instead of just "working as intended"? Because unless they logically and fully explain themselves, people will just continue to ask for these things. If we the players have a better idea on what their idea of "balance" is, it'd certainly help us give better suggestions for improvements to the game and help prevent the same question being asked again every couple weeks.

[Ophannus]

RDM is designed to specialize in enfeebling yet we only have 2 unique enfeebles. WHM, which specializes in "healing" still gets high level enfeebles, but the inverse s not true as RDM does not get high level healing. Why give WHM Addle, a level 80+ Enfeeble, but not give RDM a level 70 Cure?

[Vold]

I just think it's amusing people continue to think the solution to their job problems is to boost them even more when it boils down to content. So sure are you that RDM in it's current state will remain in the grave? Do I have to recite the countless examples over the years as to why this mindset is false?

It's always the same story. The people think boosting jobs is the answer. Make us stronger! SE says nope, we're just going to do content right so the roles of jobs are useful. The players say nope, we don't want to play the game as intended, we want to zerg. SE says nope, we're just going to do content right so the roles of jobs are useful.The people say nope, we're quitting this is BS. SE says okay we'll give you what you want. The people say really? SE says nope, it's just Chuck Testa.

Early 2010 if I told any of you that BLM BLU WHM SMN would be the future stars of FFXI while BRD COR RDM and zerg merit PTs would be in the dumps I would have had the worst name in the community EVER across the internet and in game. WTF is this idiot talking about, there's nothing SE can ever do to accomplish the BS he is spewing. Yeah. What can they ever do to accomplish the same for RDM in the future you ask? The hell if I know. I didn't see Abyssea coming anymore than the next person. But just because I can't fathom the solution does not mean in the least that a solution is impossible as proven by Abyssea. So either SE knows what they are doing long term to set things right, or one day soon RDM is going to see adjustments to make them really impossible to say no to.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Holding on to vain hope for higher tier enfeebles, maybe SE making Dia affected by Saboteur, and maybe that enfeebling/cure adjustment not being a flop.

[Ophannus]

Also you said "Magic was split so that Red Mage gets single target and White Mage gets AoEs" BUT WHITE MAGE GETS BOTH SO THEY SPECIALIZE IN BOTH

[Ophannus]

Self Target spells have NO value for Red Mage. Change them AT LEAST to single target. Gain-stat spells have such a limited effect on RDM gameplay but could do worlds of benefit for other jobs and RDM specializes in Enhancing magic but our best enhancing spells go to jobs that sub /RDM48. A BLM99/RDM48 can heal just as good as a RDM99 and also haste and refresh people. Gravity 2 is a JOKE.

[Rorrick]

So what's the logic behind Garuda's Hastega pact? Is this not identical to how Accession Haste would work?

[Koroma]

im kinda glad no offence to any of you despite being sjable with the next lvl increase hastaga is still smns best buff imo.

[Quetzacoatl]

Holding on to vain hope for higher tier enfeebles, maybe SE making Dia affected by Saboteur, and maybe that enfeebling/cure adjustment not being a flop.

it most likely will be regardless ; ;

[Rezeak]

In regards to Haste specifically, the stats surrounding the spell were created for a single target in mind, so for balance reasons we have no plans to make it possible to turn it into an AoE spell.


There isn't really any balance issues (all balance issues are delt with the use of a stratagem)

As a DD it's frustrating when you have WHMs or RDMs not hasting everyone because there so busy w/ healing or enfeebling or procing so making accession stack w/ accession will least make it alot easier

As a WHM haste cycles suck and are prolly the most boring part of the job.

[cidbahamut]

Red mage was designed to be proficient in the ways of enfeebling magic and single-target/self enhancements. Magic spells were split so that red mages focused on single-target magic, while white mages excelled in AoE magic.

In regards to Haste specifically, the stats surrounding the spell were created for a single target in mind, so for balance reasons we have no plans to make it possible to turn it into an AoE spell.

Due to this, we do not have plans of allowing red mage spells to simply be changed into AoE spells.

I'm calling bullshit on everything you just said. Everything.

[SpankWustler]

Red mage was designed to be proficient in the ways of enfeebling magic and single-target/self enhancements. Magic spells were split so that red mages focused on single-target magic, while white mages excelled in AoE magic.

The different specializations would be great, if they were actually different specializations. The only unique single-target Enhancing spells that Red Mage learns are Phalanx II and Refresh II, and the rest have been self-only. Of the recent self-only spells, the Gain line are identical in potency to the Boost line in spite of being self-only and Temper is very situational.

Specializing in single-target magic wouldn't be bad thing, but being limited to single-target magic with only two additional spells to show for it doesn't feel so hot.


In regards to Haste specifically, the stats surrounding the spell were created for a single target in mind, so for balance reasons we have no plans to make it possible to turn it into an AoE spell.

By competently casting Haste on anyone in my party or alliance who hits a thing with a thing, I have subverted the plans of the Development Bros once again! AHAHAHAHAHA!

Seriously, Haste is important and anyone with half a brain is going to cast it on anyone who is hitting a thing with a thing. The only thing that making Haste incompatible with Ascension and having no Hastega equivalent accomplishes is that I cast a spell with low casting time, low MP cost, and low recast three or more times instead of casting a spell with high casting time, low MP cost, and low recast time once.

[Garota]

Red mage was designed to be proficient in the ways of enfeebling magic and single-target/self enhancements. Magic spells were split so that red mages focused on single-target magic, while white mages excelled in AoE magic.

In regards to Haste specifically, the stats surrounding the spell were created for a single target in mind, so for balance reasons we have no plans to make it possible to turn it into an AoE spell.

Due to this, we do not have plans of allowing red mage spells to simply be changed into AoE spells.

Not only is RDM proficient in Enfeebling (When a monster isn't damn near immune to it.) But, I for one would have expected RDM to have gained access to Adloquium (Regain) and better Regen spells due to the fact that RDM has higher enhancing skill and original access to the Regen spell.

[Economizer]

Seriously, Haste is important and anyone with half a brain is going to cast it on anyone who is hitting a thing with a thing.

Doing it wrong, there is no reason Haste shouldn't be on everyone at all times when possible.

Healer? That could be a second off those cure recasts and everyone knows that Cursna doesn't have the most forgiving of recasts when dealing with Doom.

Nuker/Enfeebler? Sleep and Stun timers aren't exactly low, but Haste helps you get to cap fast.

Guy who is doing absolutely nothing in the corner? Guess what? Haste has been shown in preliminary studies to shorten the life expectancy of idlers while being completely safe for anyone who is not AFK!

Haste has even been proven 15% effective at speeding up attacks, and 83% effective at reducing rage from people actively tanking mobs - even when it is the White Mage!

WARNING: REPEATEDLY CYCLING HASTE FOR STUPID BALANCE REASONS HAS BEEN PROVEN TO MAKE MAGES CHRONICALLY DEPRESSED AND SHOULD NOT BE APPLIED FOR LONGER THEN FOUR HOURS BY THE SAME PHYSICIAN.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Red mage was designed to be proficient in the ways of enfeebling magic and single-target/self enhancements. Magic spells were split so that red mages focused on single-target magic, while white mages excelled in AoE magic.

In regards to Haste specifically, the stats surrounding the spell were created for a single target in mind, so for balance reasons we have no plans to make it possible to turn it into an AoE spell.

Due to this, we do not have plans of allowing red mage spells to simply be changed into AoE spells.

Mind asking the Dev Team how does self target spells benefit the party... ever?

Also about Dia and Saboteur as well if you please.

[Crimson_Slasher]

Not everything made in ffxi is made to help the party. Even if most of it is, sometimes you just gotta get something for yourself to make you better, and by extension the party better through your enhanced performance. Berserk sure as hell doesnt help any party members.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Not the same thing. A DD typically only has the major role of dealing damage. Rdm has a decent amount of Self target spells for mitigating damage - but can't hold hate/isn't asked to tank. Gain Spells are completely replaced by boosts which help everyone not just the user. Other mages either get haste or will be able to sub it /whm or /rdm soon. That leaves Phalanx 2.

[Hyrist]

Issues with haste are going to fall by the wayside anyways because anyone /whm or /rdm will be able to cast it.

I don't see anything here that I haven't been saying would happen. Sad to see that some of my ideas for adding on as alternatives haven't made it.

We get no Cure V, but limited cure adjustments and no specific spell to augment curing. (Perhaps the MND effect will make Gain MND worthwhile for it.)

We get both Sword and Dagger WSes, further fueling the hybrid approach to the class as they're both fairly decent WSes. But still we lack in a wider array of gear for those who cannot tote around the absolute best for RDM Meleeing, a role scorned anyways.

And those who have been spouting for more AoE spells finally get told no. And honestly, I've agreed to that for a long time. RDM's functionality should not be limited to another job's function. However, there's not even a peep towards giving RDM more single target buffs or, better still, debuffs that are unique to the class.

All of what people have been asking for in that department could likely be established with better enfeebels anyways, as they're target centric, not player centric. (Which makes debuffs place on the monster effectively alliance-wide buffs, balanced by only being most powerful on difficult monsters which are subject to capped durations, lesser potency, and resist issues.)

We've a pathetically limited array of debuffs for a Debuff Specalist. Especially in the offensive debuffs.
(Hint to the developers: Oil/Imperil, Vit-0, Zombie(on foes), And Mini are all status effects you could still balance for an MMO yet still implement, an that's not touching new debuffs you have in game but do not give us in spell form.)

There's also the standing issue of no direct way to Regard TP moves themselves (rather than slowing or trying to prevent them.) Which needs to be addressed.

I understand you're finally trying to Corral Red Mages into finally playing the image you mean for them, but don't do it just by repeatedly saying 'no' to suggestions. Give us something to go on in the departments you're wanting Red Mage to specialize in: Enfeebles.

Honestly, why haven't we gotten even a hint on what the Devs are thinking in that regard?

[tyrantsyn]

Red mage was designed to be proficient in the ways of enfeebling magic and single-target/self enhancements. Magic spells were split so that red mages focused on single-target magic, while white mages excelled in AoE magic.

In regards to Haste specifically, the stats surrounding the spell were created for a single target in mind, so for balance reasons we have no plans to make it possible to turn it into an AoE spell.

Due to this, we do not have plans of allowing red mage spells to simply be changed into AoE spells.

You know maybe it's just me but I can remember this being address already before. And we were told the same thing at the time. What I'd like to point out here is that this only addresses "haste" and not any of the other Accession~able spell ppl have been talking about. Like our gain line, Refresh II, and Temper "and for some enspell II's."

Now if SE doesn't want to make these spell aoe threw sub job, the question still stands can we get single target version on the gain line, Temper, or even the Enspell II's? It seems a little odd sitting here asking for more utility threw a sub job. Tho it seems to be the fan favorite for most on the job.

The way I see it, single target = greater potency over a spread out version of the spell. This isn't to say there couldn't be a dum down version of a AOE haste spell made. Which would probably land in the hands of WHM's not RDM's. And would basically be a tone down version of the current single targeted version. Like Rukkirii said, the current version is specifically design around single target spell and making that spell aoe/accession would make it unbalanced. That's not to say SE couldn't take the current spell, bump it's status up to tier II and make a weaker version tier I that could be made into a AOE/accession~able spell. The question is would any one really want that? The idea falls into the whole trade off system that most jobs are know for. So I wouldn't count something like this out.

[ManaKing]

Red mage was designed to be proficient in the ways of enfeebling magic and single-target/self enhancements. Magic spells were split so that red mages focused on single-target magic, while white mages excelled in AoE magic.

In regards to Haste specifically, the stats surrounding the spell were created for a single target in mind, so for balance reasons we have no plans to make it possible to turn it into an AoE spell.

Due to this, we do not have plans of allowing red mage spells to simply be changed into AoE spells.

Any chance we'll be on equal footing with the other jobs any time soon as a whole or does your design for RDM also including leaving RDM in the dust?

Because every mage is better than us right now and we aren't a DD and we aren't a better buffer than anyone. Also, we aren't a tank, regardless of how tough we can be and that we have access to shield mastery. Our shield is limited to a Genbu's shield or nothing useful.

The job has major problems, your answer didn't solve any of them. RDMs expect to be taken seriously in these next couple of updates since we clearly weren't in Aby. Some actual transparency into our future would go a long way to start RDMs being able to have actual discussions on things that might be useful.

[ShadowViper]

Love it we are profiecient in the ways of enfeebling but dont get any AOE enfeebling besides poisonga and diaga (which should be divine anyhow). Yet whm whos profiecint in Healing and divine has AOE versions of both healing and divine with blm being profiecent in Elmental has AOE versions of those spells and rumor of an AOE dark spell to come (though they should get natural bioga).

So looking more at whm specifically its now able to do aoe heals, divine and enhancements and people wonder why there is no room for RDM in a group. I dont care if i ever get cure 5 i dont want to be a main healer, i want to be the enfeebler/enhancer SE keeps talking about that can jump into the fray when need be. If we were giving the aoe versions of our enhancing spells and have them self cast and give us the barga spells we would have more of a role in game. Right now what SE has done is turned whm into a main healer, light trigger go to job, and main buffer (with stonegra using solace/curaga, boost spells and barga spells) leaving rdm as just a enfeelber for its main role, but guess what all but the merit spells (should never of been merits) are able to be done by other jobs such as whm.

Looking at BLm it gets 2 very useful AOE spells that are enfeebling based with Sleepga/Breakga, how is that balanced when blm after being able to enfeeble a crowd can now go in and use AOE dmg spells to kill em, least if these spells were RDM main not BLM a RDM can't just simply work down the crowd solo, it would also give the enfeebling aspect role BACK to RDM so if an event needed crowd control you dont go to your nuker you go to your enfeebler (isnt that what we do with brd anyhow but as a non mage).

FFXI is a group based MMO, most things in game require a party, yet what does a RDM have to offer to the group making it unique--- Refresh?? --- guess what 3 other jobs can do this also and all of them do it in an AOE version, all 3 of those stack with any other form of refresh in game while rdms doesnt work with sublimation, XXofValors buffs, and drinks, so how is that balanced. Worried about hastega being unbalanced, again why the same jobs above have similiar buffs, and minus smns hastega from garuda theirs dont get overwritten by slow.

Again make these AOE buffs be aoe centered on the RDM and guess what, now you dont have to sacrifice a WHM to run in to "Buff" a party send in the rdm whos suppose to be buffing parties into demigods anyhow.

Because RDM is lacking any natural unique abilities its heavily reliant on its sub job to fit a role, why topics like this about improving RDM by adjusting other jobs abilties pop up, but this won't change the role for RDM. If the spells were made accessionable then it just means whms now have the AOE version of Haste, LV 99 SCH/RDM will have it leaving rdm with only refresh 2 and en2 spells which aren't all that desired than they were before because of other jobs able to do the AOE version of refresh and not many wanting their own weapon effects to be overwritten, would still leave RDM no real role in a group.

So my call to SE, Keep whm with its aoe version of healing/divine spells (make dia divine again), with BLM having its AOE Elemental and DARK (need to add more aoe dark like drainga/aspirga/bioga) but make all Enfeebling/Enhcaning AOE RDM exclusive spells (need more enfeebling/enhancing spells, but would include existing spells such as pro/shell-ga/barga/sleepga/breakga).

This would give the three starting mages distinct roles as mages and still have room in game for SCH who is would still stay the second best nuker in game, and hopefully with update to regen be a decent replacement for whm if non are available (though i believe sch should get cure 5 to make it the go to job as a back up to whm and to keep SCH the DOT master its becoming give it refresh also).

[Lyandra]

In regards to Haste specifically, the stats surrounding the spell were created for a single target in mind, so for balance reasons we have no plans to make it possible to turn it into an AoE spell.

Due to this, we do not have plans of allowing red mage spells to simply be changed into AoE spells.

When the 80 level cap increase was announced and the rules for Accession+Haste were mentioned, I was glad then that SMN would retain at least one "unique" ability in Hastega. However now I think it would be easier to allow it to be cast as a spell to cut down on maintaining Haste on multiple targets. I think by 99 it should be released as a usable spell, since the actual Hastega spell exists in game and is still cast in party by the Moblin Gurneyman in Oldton Movalpolis. (Since it's AoE, it'd likely go to WHM before RDM however, so I dont think that RDMs would like that decision anyways :()

But as far as mechanics and balance go, if Hastega were a learnable spell why not do what they did with BLU Refueling and Animating Wail? Just keep Haste as single-target +15% increase but make Hastega party +10% increase instead. That way players could choose to give faster haste as needed or sacrifice performance for convenience.

[Neisan_Quetz]

10% hastega is effectively useless. Rdm needs fixes but hastega is not going to change anything, especially a gimped version.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

10% hastega is effectively useless. Rdm needs fixes but hastega is not going to change anything, especially a gimped version.

Hastega wont fix any job, it'll just make the tedious part of RDM, WHM and now SCH that much less tedious.

It certainly is not worthy of a gimp, you can keep Haste up on all party members fine. It's just the cycle that's annoying.

RDM was useless as soon as the level cap went past 75, and now SE have basically guaranteed it'll stay that way.

Basically as far as SE are concerned: "RDM will not be getting any buffs, we'll add a few JOKE spells but that's it"

[Froggis]

They will not let RDM die out. All jobs will probably be getting some kind of insane spell or ablity we've always hoped for in group 3 merit form. Perhaps Haste II, though that wouldn't be my preference lol. People shouldn't give up hope on RDM just yet, it will come back, and it will be quite amazing when it does, though it will be about 3 to 6 months from now I imagine.

[FrankReynolds]

Red mage was designed to be proficient in the ways of enfeebling magic and single-target/self enhancements. Magic spells were split so that red mages focused on single-target magic, while white mages excelled in AoE magic.

In regards to Haste specifically, the stats surrounding the spell were created for a single target in mind, so for balance reasons we have no plans to make it possible to turn it into an AoE spell.

Due to this, we do not have plans of allowing red mage spells to simply be changed into AoE spells.

This post is not only inaccurate ( haste is not a balance issue, other spells etc.), but also has a bad tone to it. It's fairly obvious that people are desperate for something to make red mage a good job again.

Instead of popping in and going " No! You will get nothing, and like it.", why not try saying something like "We are not planning on adding this requested feature because we have something in the way of <insert hint about something you have planned for red mage here> planned, and we think you will find it is even better.".

[Hyrist]

Some actual transparency into our future would go a long way to start RDMs being able to have actual discussions on things that might be useful.

I think Red Mages as a community is often divided by the various ideas we would like to see implemented for the jobs, but we can all unite under this statement.

If your idea is to make enfeeblement and single/self target buffers. We want examples, even the roughest of conseptual ideas as how the developers are going to accomplish this. Even asking us pointed questions would be preferable to the near-silence we have gotten in comparison to other jobs.

We realize this job is a hard one to balance. But this difficulty should be encouraging the development team to be more vocal and open with us, not the opposite. Engage us, talk to us. Give us a direction to work with instead of letting the community tear itself apart for a lack of anything solid to work with.

[Greatguardian]

This post is not only inaccurate ( haste is not a balance issue, other spells etc.), but also has a bad tone to it. It's fairly obvious that people are desperate for something to make red mage a good job again.

Instead of popping in and going " No! You will get nothing, and like it.", why not try saying something like "We are not planning on adding this requested feature because we have something in the way of <insert hint about something you have planned for red mage here> planned, and we think you will find it is even better.".

Well, that assumes that there are plans for something better.

Inb4 gravity II

[FrankReynolds]

Well, that assumes that there are plans for something better.

Inb4 gravity II


Bahhhhhhh! <shakes fist at the sky>

[Economizer]

Inb4 gravity II

To be fair, they did make it sound like Gravity II had potential, with sweet nothings about only the movement speed decrease being resisted by NMs and making it sound like free sushi only a RDM could dispense.

Say what you will about evasion down, but if it worked like Dia for evasion, I think the spell could be amazing... if only.

[cidbahamut]

Instead of popping in and going " No! You will get nothing, and like it.", why not try saying something like "We are not planning on adding this requested feature because we have something in the way of <insert hint about something you have planned for red mage here> planned, and we think you will find it is even better.".

They would have to actually have something planned for Red Mage to do that.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

They will not let RDM die out. All jobs will probably be getting some kind of insane spell or ablity we've always hoped for in group 3 merit form. Perhaps Haste II, though that wouldn't be my preference lol. People shouldn't give up hope on RDM just yet, it will come back, and it will be quite amazing when it does, though it will be about 3 to 6 months from now I imagine.

DRK's been waiting the longest, and it's still waiting. I wouldn't count on it.

[Vaness]

@ saevel and daniel.You two were crying in the Cure V thread about how you didn't wanted to be Enhancing bots.I am pretty sure asking for accession temper, haste,gain-spell and Enspell 2 will make you an enhancing bot.Changed your mind?

[ManaKing]

@ saevel and daniel.You two were crying in the Cure V thread about how you didn't wanted to be Enhancing bots.I am pretty sure asking for accession temper, haste,gain-spell and Enspell 2 will make you an enhancing bot.Changed your mind?

It's a bot if you have to cast all of those spells on every person in the party. When you do it in an AOE it is more like we are actually supporting people like real supports.

[FrankReynolds]

It's a bot if you have to cast all of those spells on every person in the party. When you do it in an AOE it is more like we are actually supporting people like real supports.

That sounds like code for "I don't want to be so busy. I want to auto-attack like the melee do. Who knows, maybe I'll cast a buff or two if I'm bored."

[Vaness]

It's a bot if you have to cast all of those spells on every person in the party. When you do it in an AOE it is more like we are actually supporting people like real supports.

Ok so lets do some maths, simple ones.

Rdm using SCH sub have 2 Strat.Each strat have a 2 min Recast.

Situation no.1 (You get accession with the possibility to use it with haste, temper, Enspell and Boost-spell)
Actions
No.1 Accession + Haste
No.2 Accession + Temper
No.3 Do whatever for the next 45s because your Accession timer is at 1 min 45s
no.4 Accession + Enspell
no.5 Wait for the 1 min 45s on the second strat.
No.6 Accession Gain-spell

Conclusion:Considering a full AF3 +2 set gives other ppl a 5 min buff (aprox) you would have to keep recasting the buffs.That is an enhancing bot.

Situation no.2 (Haste and refresh 2 as single targets no accession but no gain/enspell/temper to cast)
Action
no1.Cast Haste on Melee
No.2 Cast Refresh II on the WHM while haste timer is down (about 10s)
no.3 Cast Haste on another melee
No.4 Recast haste every 10s until all the melee in your PT got.

Conclusion: It takes you less then 1min 30s to have every1 hasted/refreshed wich leaves you with 3 mins 30s to dance the Lambada if you feel like it.

Ofcourse I might give too much credit to most RDM thinking that they would actually WANT to cast enhancing.....at all.But as soon as you would get to a "certain level" of event, you can be sure that melees and tank would ask and annoy you about having all those shinies on them.So can you really be mad at them for not giving you accession?

[saevel]

I think Red Mages as a community is often divided by the various ideas we would like to see implemented for the jobs, but we can all unite under this statement.

If your idea is to make enfeeblement and single/self target buffers. We want examples, even the roughest of conseptual ideas as how the developers are going to accomplish this. Even asking us pointed questions would be preferable to the near-silence we have gotten in comparison to other jobs.

We realize this job is a hard one to balance. But this difficulty should be encouraging the development team to be more vocal and open with us, not the opposite. Engage us, talk to us. Give us a direction to work with instead of letting the community tear itself apart for a lack of anything solid to work with.

In all honestly they have absolutely no clue what their going to do with us as a job. They threw out the "enfeebling specialist" as an idea, but if "Gravity II" is any indication, then we're not getting a damn thing. If SE was smart they'd just bite the damn bullet and redesign the entire enfeeble line instead of trying to band aid it all. Change gravity from -movement to just plain -evasion similar to Slow II / Blind II. Change the bind spell from 0% movement speed to a stun effect (old White Mage Hold spell). Remove ALL NM's super immunity's period, never implement them again, ever. Implement a line of -stat enfeebling spells that actually scale.

For each of the aspects of RDM (WHM/BLM/WAR) there are things they can do. Heck just put RDM on all the EX WS's, that would immediately fix many issues and would cost nearly no developer time.

There are things you can do but SE is so damn resistant to change. It really does fell like their punishing RDM as a job for all those soloists running around.

[Seriha]

Yet, imagine if some got their wish and Temper and Gain spells could be cast on others... imagine that nightmare party where you need to dole out 6 individual hastes, 6 refreshes, 6 tempers, 6 gains, and maybe even 6 phalanx 2s. Basically, any time we're in a situation where we have to buff 3 or more people with the same spell, an AoE equivalent would be far more beneficial.

Being limited to the timer of Accession is a factor, yes, and bluntly, some kind of RDM equivalent would work just fine on a minute timer. Unfortunately, I doubt our set bonus would convey the duration extension to others if using Accession, nor do some buffs people would like to see benefit from the full set.

So, we come kind of full circle to why sphere/aura (like Mantelets, but RDM being it and people receiving as long as they're in range) or buff copying to others as both the more practical and elegant solution. Like it or not, casting burden has been one of RDM's bigger issues over the years, resulting in dropping spells like debuffs on mobs since they weren't terribly essential, perhaps not being able to nuke as often, or most definitely suffer from the melee perspective since you're looking at least 2 seconds of not swinging per spell you cast, which hurts a job that's already third-rate physically for various reasons.

The alternative to AoE spells is significantly longer durations on the single-targets. Personally, I'd gladly pay double, maybe even triple, the MP costs of a spell if it meant I could keep it one someone for 15 minutes or more. Sure, we'll see a glut of dispel/overwriting/buff-stealing happy mobs then, but for more leisurely play, it'd free us up to be a bit more versatile even if heavily leaned on as a party's support in a given group.

[saevel]

Yet, imagine if some got their wish and Temper and Gain spells could be cast on others... imagine that nightmare party where you need to dole out 6 individual hastes, 6 refreshes, 6 tempers, 6 gains, and maybe even 6 phalanx 2s. Basically, any time we're in a situation where we have to buff 3 or more people with the same spell, an AoE equivalent would be far more beneficial.

Being limited to the timer of Accession is a factor, yes, and bluntly, some kind of RDM equivalent would work just fine on a minute timer. Unfortunately, I doubt our set bonus would convey the duration extension to others if using Accession, nor do some buffs people would like to see benefit from the full set.

So, we come kind of full circle to why sphere/aura (like Mantelets, but RDM being it and people receiving as long as they're in range) or buff copying to others as both the more practical and elegant solution. Like it or not, casting burden has been one of RDM's bigger issues over the years, resulting in dropping spells like debuffs on mobs since they weren't terribly essential, perhaps not being able to nuke as often, or most definitely suffer from the melee perspective since you're looking at least 2 seconds of not swinging per spell you cast, which hurts a job that's already third-rate physically for various reasons.

The alternative to AoE spells is significantly longer durations on the single-targets. Personally, I'd gladly pay double, maybe even triple, the MP costs of a spell if it meant I could keep it one someone for 15 minutes or more. Sure, we'll see a glut of dispel/overwriting/buff-stealing happy mobs then, but for more leisurely play, it'd free us up to be a bit more versatile even if heavily leaned on as a party's support in a given group.


Completely agree with you on all accounts. I was just using accession as an example as it's an already existing game mechanic that's commonly used to share self cast buffs on other party members. Honestly I'd prefer if they made a native RDM JA that made next spell effect everyone within 8 feet. Heck make it not comply with haste but work on Temper / Phalanx / Enspells.

The whole point of this post was to throw a bone to the support role peoples (support not main healer). And while most people only hear my talking about the melee side, it's only because that's the most neglected and least explored aspect. I prefer to do all three aspects of the job, it's why I play RDM the most instead of my WAR, SAM or DRK.

[Kristal]

Red mage was designed to be proficient in the ways of enfeebling magic and single-target/self enhancements. Magic spells were split so that red mages focused on single-target magic, while white mages excelled in AoE magic.

What point is proficiency when RDM 99 is facing mobs that are either immune to enfeebling, die before the spell lands, or subjob RDM does an equally efficient job at it? It's more efficient to cast Sleep II on a Treasure Pyxis...

[Daniel_Hatcher]

@ saevel and daniel.You two were crying in the Cure V thread about how you didn't wanted to be Enhancing bots.I am pretty sure asking for accession temper, haste,gain-spell and Enspell 2 will make you an enhancing bot.Changed your mind?

I don't LIKE being an Enhancing Bot, casting Haste and Refresh on one person at a time. I did it when RDM was desired, I still didn't like it. Acccession > Spell is the case of cast and then recast once at every recast time, it's a lot better that way and less tedious.

This allows plenty of time in between to do other stuff, such as depending on how the player plays RDM, Help with Curing, Nuke, Melee (if allowed) and so on.

I personally only care for Haste and Temper being made Accessionable, Refresh II is alright, but unless you're in a mage party you're not going to need to refresh all those party members.

[cidbahamut]

Ok so lets do some maths, simple ones.

Rdm using SCH sub have 2 Strat.Each strat have a 1 min Recast.
And you've failed right out of the gate. Stratagem charge time is 2 minutes: http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Stratagems

The rest of your post is built upon an incorrect premise.

[tyrantsyn]

Being limited to the timer of Accession is a factor, yes, and bluntly, some kind of RDM equivalent would work just fine on a minute timer. Unfortunately, I doubt our set bonus would convey the duration extension to others if using Accession, nor do some buffs people would like to see benefit from the full set.
.

I'm sorry you lost me here, are you saying accession doesn't convey over or spell duration and bonuses with our emp +2 gear? Or if we pick up the ability to accession the gain line/Temper spells they wouldn't get the bonus?

[Vaness]

And you've failed right out of the gate. Stratagem charge time is 2 minutes: http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Stratagems

The rest of your post is built upon an incorrect premise.

I'm sorry you are right, I am a sch main and barely uses /sch or accession as sub....at all.
But that revelation makes the whole accession + haste/temper/gain-spells/enspells even worse.

So the rest of my built isnt exacly built on Incorrect since it was made to show how accession + the new buffs you guys asking, would make you even more of an enhancing bot.

[saevel]

I'm sorry you lost me here, are you saying accession doesn't convey over or spell duration and bonuses with our emp +2 gear? Or if we pick up the ability to accession the gain line/Temper spells they wouldn't get the bonus?

She saying that if SE did implement it, that they would screw it up and not include the set bonus from composure, since your targeting yourself.

[Neisan_Quetz]

That's not a screw up though, that's accession working as intended.

[tyrantsyn]

She saying that if SE did implement it, that they would screw it up and not include the set bonus from composure, since your targeting yourself.

Okay thanx


That's not a screw up though, that's accession working as intended.

Intended for SCH perhaps. But i'd have my doubt SE would be that trifling about it.

[Neisan_Quetz]

The enhances effect duration bonus effect on cape + feet is transferred yes, full set bonus no because that's not how it works. Simple pasa.

[tyrantsyn]

The enhances effect duration bonus effect on cape + feet is transferred yes, full set bonus no because that's not how it works. Simple pasa.


you sure about that?
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Estoqueur's_Armor_%2B2_Set

[Greatguardian]

Very sure. Set bonus only works when casting on others. If you're accessioning a self-target spell, then only Cape+Feet will transfer to the other players in AoE.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I'm sorry you are right, I am a sch main and barely uses /sch or accession as sub....at all.
But that revelation makes the whole accession + haste/temper/gain-spells/enspells even worse.

So the rest of my built isnt exacly built on Incorrect since it was made to show how accession + the new buffs you guys asking, would make you even more of an enhancing bot.

I still don't see how casting 2 spells as that's the most you can under Accession once at the minimum recast of 3 minutes makes you more an enhancing bot than casting 2 spells 5 times each every 3 minutes minimum.

[tyrantsyn]

Very sure. Set bonus only works when casting on others. If you're accessioning a self-target spell, then only Cape+Feet will transfer to the other players in AoE.

Ah yea okay.

[FrankReynolds]

I still don't see how casting 2 spells as that's the most you can under Accession once at the minimum recast of 3 minutes makes you more an enhancing bot than casting 2 spells 5 times each every 3 minutes minimum.


So Accession -> temper
Accession -> gain-str
haste * X
Refresh * X

Sound right?

[Greatguardian]

I'd rather just Accession Temper, leave a strat open for dispelled buffs/situational uses, and let the WHM use Boost-MND. People don't actually let Red Mages watch a party full of melees on their own without a real healer there, do they?

[Economizer]

I could never understand the other things, but I still think that Temper and Enspells at least made some sense why they were not able to be cast on others or made AoE, since they are exclusively for boosting the melee capability of the Red Mage.

You can say that Red Mage is a bad melee all you want and maybe you'd even be right, but they are what SE tried to give to Red Mage for its melee side, and not for enhancing others.

On the rest, I'll say it again. Gain-STAT? WHM can, so whynot RDM? Refresh II? BRD can, why not RDM? Haste? WHM and RDM should be able to with a unique spell, and Haste itself should be Accessionable.

[FrankReynolds]

I'd rather just Accession Temper, leave a strat open for dispelled buffs/situational uses, and let the WHM use Boost-MND. People don't actually let Red Mages watch a party full of melees on their own without a real healer there, do they?

Just checking. So anybody want to predict what crap they are going to add?

[Greatguardian]

Native Dual Wield 2.

Many, many lulz would be had.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

So Accession -> temper
Accession -> gain-str
haste * X
Refresh * X

Sound right?

Like I said before:

Only Haste, Temper and Refresh II would be worthwhile with Accession. WHM can do the Gain line already fine, and you'd be better of leaving RDM's at single-target just make it party targetable if anything to give say THF/DNC and so on DEX while the white mage gives the rest another one.

Haste + Temper would end up being the only ones used, and if you were in a mage party you'd only use Refresh II and possibly Haste. A mixed party you'd just cast Refresh II separately, Haste if it's mostly mages.

You can do fine with RDM with only two stratagems unless the enemy dispels.

[Greatguardian]

Haste and Refresh are really not that worthwhile with Accession. Convenient? Situationally. I'd only really bother Accessioning buffs that are otherwise self-target only (eg, Temper). For everything else, it's not really a big deal. It's, like, 2-3 spells every 6 minutes.

I mean, you're not the only mage in the party, right? Split Haste duties with the WHM like everyone else.

[cidbahamut]

Just checking. So anybody want to predict what crap they are going to add?

Bind II to go along with Gravity II, obviously.

[FrankReynolds]

I'm thinking they will give us Dia / Bio IV - which will be exactly the same as 5/5 III, but with slightly higher DOT.
That will clear up those merits for us.

Then they will add a whole bunch of new NMs that are actually susceptible to Paralyze / Slow / Gravity (gravity won't matter because they will be bosses in events that require a full group).

People will laugh at us.

Then 2 years from now when they update the merit categories, they will change all the spell merit categories to: "Increases <enter spell name here> potency." Which will give para / slow %1 more potency per merit (most mobs will still resist it), and add 2 damage per tick to Bio/Dia.

Then red mage will be perfect (if you look at it in a carnival mirror).

[Mageoholic]

LOL @ AoEing Enspell2's. That is all.

[saevel]

LOL @ AoEing Enspell2's. That is all.

They would actually be good for 2H melee's. This is of course if SE fix's their scaling issues. Heck the scaling of ALL enspells sucks past 75.

[ManaKing]

Ok so lets do some maths, simple ones.

Rdm using SCH sub have 2 Strat.Each strat have a 2 min Recast.

Situation no.1 (You get accession with the possibility to use it with haste, temper, Enspell and Boost-spell)
Actions
No.1 Accession + Haste
No.2 Accession + Temper
No.3 Do whatever for the next 45s because your Accession timer is at 1 min 45s
no.4 Accession + Enspell
no.5 Wait for the 1 min 45s on the second strat.
No.6 Accession Gain-spell

Conclusion:Considering a full AF3 +2 set gives other ppl a 5 min buff (aprox) you would have to keep recasting the buffs.That is an enhancing bot.

Situation no.2 (Haste and refresh 2 as single targets no accession but no gain/enspell/temper to cast)
Action
no1.Cast Haste on Melee
No.2 Cast Refresh II on the WHM while haste timer is down (about 10s)
no.3 Cast Haste on another melee
No.4 Recast haste every 10s until all the melee in your PT got.

Conclusion: It takes you less then 1min 30s to have every1 hasted/refreshed wich leaves you with 3 mins 30s to dance the Lambada if you feel like it.

Ofcourse I might give too much credit to most RDM thinking that they would actually WANT to cast enhancing.....at all.But as soon as you would get to a "certain level" of event, you can be sure that melees and tank would ask and annoy you about having all those shinies on them.So can you really be mad at them for not giving you accession?

It's funny because I specifically said that I have no interest in improving /SCH and Accession. I just want Composure to AOE Phallanx 2, Temper, and possibly Haste or Gain spells. I don't care about cycles, I just want to benefit people when I benefit myself. Thus not a bot and thus all of your post was misdirected. I apologize that my post about preferring to use Composure as a catalyst to make RDMs cycles go away instead of Accession was a previous post and that you didn't read it. But I have no intention of double posting all day long every time I want to comment on a thread. I simply read everything that everyone has posted thus far so that I don't misinterpret what people are say. I guess that isn't common courtesy on forums.

[ManaKing]

Native Dual Wield 2.

Many, many lulz would be had.

Hey I need at least Dual Wield 5 to catch up with the rest of the world. Jk. (Possibly not?)

I honestly have no idea what they are giving us because the only new traits we have gotten are shield mastery and magic burst bonus (thx for no SC). The only job abilities are Saboteur (We all know the problems) and Spontaneity (10 minute recast for 1 spell!). As far as actually new magic we have the Gain Spells, Addle, Break (*grumble*), and Temper.

If you see a pattern...then maybe let us know, because it all looks like random stuff that doesn't have a theme. The only theme I see is that it is the sort of thing you would expect SE to give RDM. Random Stuff with no actual purpose.


They would actually be good for 2H melee's. This is of course if SE fix's their scaling issues. Heck the scaling of ALL enspells sucks past 75.

Most people I know prefer DNC Merited Haste Samba for the additional TP and possibly superior DPS. Enspells are really only good, not great, when you are against something with incredibly high defense and low magic defense. When your THF hits Jailor of Fortitude or PLD mobs for 1~10 damage, it's nice if they can hit for 27 damage on hits with Enspell 1s.

But hey, if they want to make it so Enspells and Sambas can stack, then I would be happy to worry about if my party has Enspells up. Otherwise I'm undermining my DNC.

[Crimson_Slasher]

As a note, delay cap can be reached without haste samba if you have a 2hour brd. Situational yes, but then enspells trump haste samba completely.

[saevel]

Most people I know prefer DNC Merited Haste Samba for the additional TP and possibly superior DPS. Enspells are really only good, not great, when you are against something with incredibly high defense and low magic defense. When your THF hits Jailor of Fortitude or PLD mobs for 1~10 damage, it's nice if they can hit for 27 damage on hits with Enspell 1s.

But hey, if they want to make it so Enspells and Sambas can stack, then I would be happy to worry about if my party has Enspells up. Otherwise I'm undermining my DNC.

Obviously another 10% JA haste would be superior to anything enspells could do without a very specific situation. DNC is also kinda of a rare job, I don't see many in groups and I've rarely partied with one. I was assuming no DNC present. Of course that opens up the possibility of RDM/DNC giving 5% haste samba, depending on situation could be very useful.

[ManaKing]

Obviously another 10% JA haste would be superior to anything enspells could do without a very specific situation. DNC is also kinda of a rare job, I don't see many in groups and I've rarely partied with one. I was assuming no DNC present. Of course that opens up the possibility of RDM/DNC giving 5% haste samba, depending on situation could be very useful.

I have 4 people I play with regularly that play DNC for one thing or another. True, DNC has to be on a mob for Sambas to be effective, while RDM can cast at least Enspell 1s from relative safety. It's just annoying that you can't get both to work at the same time or that a RDM/DNC can't apply both to an ally. I don't personally like the job combination at all, but I play it in dynamis so we have a raiser that can proc just in case a reraise goes wrong.

[saevel]

I have 4 people I play with regularly that play DNC for one thing or another. True, DNC has to be on a mob for Sambas to be effective, while RDM can cast at least Enspell 1s from relative safety. It's just annoying that you can't get both to work at the same time or that a RDM/DNC can't apply both to an ally. I don't personally like the job combination at all, but I play it in dynamis so we have a raiser that can proc just in case a reraise goes wrong.

Let me check this but I'm fairly sure that even with enspell on your still applying the special status effect on the NM. So while you don't get the haste effect, your other party members should be.

[Arcon]

Let me check this but I'm fairly sure that even with enspell on your still applying the special status effect on the NM. So while you don't get the haste effect, your other party members should be.

This is correct.

[Economizer]

We haven't received favorable replies to Haste, but I still have ideas they might be more receptive to.

You know how they talked about perhaps giving Scholar the ability to cast Regen outside of parties? I've been thinking... in another thread I suggested they give Scholar mains the ability to cast weather spells outside of parties too, which is a good idea. And in the past I've also suggested that Gain-STAT spells should be castable on others, along with Phalanx (suggesting they get rid of Phalanx II) by Red Mages.

So what if Red Mage mains, perhaps past a certain level or under a certain job ability (Composure) could cast Refresh, Phalanx, and Gain spells on anyone in their alliance? Not AOE or anything, just on others.

While Refresh II might not be a big enough difference to make it so you want three Red Mages in an alliance, I think it has always been a big enough one that I've always fought for one in my party - being able to have it casted cross party would mean one RDM could hit all the mages in a party, despite party positioning. On the Gain spells, my thinking is that it would be for characters already getting hit by Boost-STAT spells that want a different buff, or other situational things. Same with Phalanx, although the main thing would be that it is party castable, allowing Red Mages more freedom to merit things, freeing up a spell slot for SE to make a new spell with, and making Red Mage more competitive.

It might not be AoE spells, but it would be a very, very nice change.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

We haven't received favorable replies to Haste, but I still have ideas they might be more receptive to.

You know how they talked about perhaps giving Scholar the ability to cast Regen outside of parties? I've been thinking... in another thread I suggested they give Scholar mains the ability to cast weather spells outside of parties too, which is a good idea. And in the past I've also suggested that Gain-STAT spells should be castable on others, along with Phalanx (suggesting they get rid of Phalanx II) by Red Mages.

So what if Red Mage mains, perhaps past a certain level or under a certain job ability (Composure) could cast Refresh, Phalanx, and Gain spells on anyone in their alliance? Not AOE or anything, just on others.

While Refresh II might not be a big enough difference to make it so you want three Red Mages in an alliance, I think it has always been a big enough one that I've always fought for one in my party - being able to have it casted cross party would mean one RDM could hit all the mages in a party, despite party positioning. On the Gain spells, my thinking is that it would be for characters already getting hit by Boost-STAT spells that want a different buff, or other situational things. Same with Phalanx, although the main thing would be that it is party castable, allowing Red Mages more freedom to merit things, freeing up a spell slot for SE to make a new spell with, and making Red Mage more competitive.

It might not be AoE spells, but it would be a very, very nice change.

Alliance wide cycles... While it's not a bad idea, non AoE I think I'd pass on RDM if they did that.

[Economizer]

Alliance wide cycles... While it's not a bad idea, non AoE I think I'd pass on RDM if they did that.

Yeah, it was a big fear I had when I was writing it. If it really is an issue, I think maybe just Refresh should be alliance targetable, but the other two should be party targetable regardless.

[ManaKing]

Yeah, it was a big fear I had when I was writing it. If it really is an issue, I think maybe just Refresh should be alliance targetable, but the other two should be party targetable regardless.

RDM seems to be SEs play thing for coming up with restrictions on targeting groups. We'll most likely have to ride out all of the updates to FFXI to find out what they intend to do about RDM. They really haven't said anything transparent in a long time.

[Meyi]

RDM have no natural spell that is aoe. Not one. They don't deserve hastega and they certainly don't deserve some AoE job ability that allows them to AoE their spells.

That said I am all for allowing Accession to AoE more white magic spells, but this should be accessible to everyone, not just RDM/SCH. WHM/SCH and SCH/RDM should also be able to AoE Haste, Refresh, and what have you.

Edit: And RDM a joke? Please. RDM used to be the king of solo, and is still able to solo what it used to be able to solo back in the day. Now I understand RDM has had its light taken from it with everyone gaining its powerful spells via subjob, but I think there are better ways than giving RDM access to things it would never have access to (like native AoE spells). It's a good job, it just needs to have its strong points enhanced better.

[Crimson_Slasher]

Rdm has diaga, thats AOE

[Greatguardian]

Drk has poisonga, that's AOE.

One spell of dozens isn't much of a precedent.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

RDM have no natural spell that is aoe. Not one. They don't deserve hastega and they certainly don't deserve some AoE job ability that allows them to AoE their spells.

That said I am all for allowing Accession to AoE more white magic spells, but this should be accessible to everyone, not just RDM/SCH. WHM/SCH and SCH/RDM should also be able to AoE Haste, Refresh, and what have you.

Edit: And RDM a joke? Please. RDM used to be the king of solo, and is still able to solo what it used to be able to solo back in the day. Now I understand RDM has had its light taken from it with everyone gaining its powerful spells via subjob, but I think there are better ways than giving RDM access to things it would never have access to (like native AoE spells). It's a good job, it just needs to have its strong points enhanced better.

Yeah, why does a "Supposed Enhancer" deserved AoE enhancing magic... :rolleyes:

[Meyi]

Rdm has diaga, thats AOE

Huh. I checked exactly for that spell on the wiki to make sure before I posted that, and I guess I somehow missed it. You're right, and I'm sorry. orz

Still, I'd like to see something else done with Red Mage. Perhaps some sort of enhancement to Composure where enhance buffs become AoE within a small radius? I mean, the whole point of Composure was so that Red Mages would spend a little less time buffing while also enhancing their melee abilities. I wouldn't mind seeing Composure become like Accession. Perhaps a second job ability could be used in juncture with Composure to turn it into Accession, but with durations decreased?

[Neisan_Quetz]

Why are people pointing out Diaga? Not to mention Whm learns it too, I guess they should get AoE light enfeebles along with Rdm?

[Crimson_Slasher]

Neisan Quetz, would you REALLY be opposed to say slowga/paralyga/diagaII? And if those were opened, then we would have a chance at diaga3, slowga 2, and paralyga 2, imagine that, being able to paralyze all adds during an event? its not sleep, but with enough aoe debuffs and some cures, DDs could solo down links. Not useful in most practical situations but i wouldnt be against it.

[Neisan_Quetz]

No I have never desired slowga/paralyga, and diaga II is pretty much fucking useless.

If I wanted Aoe Enfeebles to deal with adds, I'd want Sleepga Breakga Bindga and Graviga.

...

[Jamesy]

all i can go is lol at this thread just because its started with a redmage crying about how he can't /sch and get aoe enspell II's or haste.

get over it SE won't give it to you because a scholar can't do those spells minus haste from current update being /whm or /rdm, but this is beside the point scholar can only accession the first tier of enspells because of /rdm which isnt even that great its maybe another 10-20 damage a hit.

i can just say i hope se doesn't take you seriously because this thread is similar to the thread on sch forums about a smn crying because they dont have thunderstorm.


oh and on a second not they also will not make gain spells accessionable because sch doesnt get them customarily redmage has always been single target whm aoe and scholar has been a mix of the mages. so what i have to say is learn your job oh and the only reason scholar can do a stronger phalanx is because our enhancing skill. if a redmage actually focused on enhancing skill gear set before casting a spell im sure the could match or surpass a scholar's phalanx

[Crimson_Slasher]

Im starting to get a poor impression of those on Quetzalcoatl as of late. Dunno what rdms you run into complaining about sch and phalanx, but ive got no issue outmatching schs with enhancing magic. As for aoe enfeebs, while you dont see em practical, id like to see em. I mean hell, a regular past time, fell cleaving, could benefit from something like diaga II/III.

But to each their own, id take a situationally useful thing over absolutely nothing at all, which is why i can atleast enjoy things like scarlet delierium (would like a longer duration though) or shield mastery, even if i dont get much use out of them. The times i do get use out of em make me smile and go "oh yeah, that was pretty handy right THERE!"

[Daniel_Hatcher]

all i can go is lol at this thread just because its started with a redmage crying about how he can't /sch and get aoe enspell II's or haste.

get over it SE won't give it to you because a scholar can't do those spells minus haste from current update being /whm or /rdm, but this is beside the point scholar can only accession the first tier of enspells because of /rdm which isnt even that great its maybe another 10-20 damage a hit.

i can just say i hope se doesn't take you seriously because this thread is similar to the thread on sch forums about a smn crying because they dont have thunderstorm.


oh and on a second not they also will not make gain spells accessionable because sch doesnt get them customarily redmage has always been single target whm aoe and scholar has been a mix of the mages. so what i have to say is learn your job oh and the only reason scholar can do a stronger phalanx is because our enhancing skill. if a redmage actually focused on enhancing skill gear set before casting a spell im sure the could match or surpass a scholar's phalanx

Two things....

1: Everyjob can do something unique with /job except anyjob /SCH

2. SCH Can't do a better Phalanx, SCH and RDM have the same skill, RDM has more gear so RDM is and will be until equipment change the superior Enhancer where Phalanx is concerned. The only one that competes is WHM and they can't get AoE/Targetable Phalanx.

Doing a quick scan I got gear: SCH = 66 (with rare VW body) ---- RDM = 84

[Jamesy]

lol i wasn't saying scholar was better i was saying someone crying over not having accession is silly and you are continuing to prove my point that a redmage can get a stronger phalanx if they actually use enhancing gear

[saevel]

Just another troll trying to start a fire. Ignore them an they'll go away.

Remember kids, only you can stop forum fires

[Neisan_Quetz]

Im starting to get a poor impression of those on Quetzalcoatl as of late. Dunno what rdms you run into complaining about sch and phalanx, but ive got no issue outmatching schs with enhancing magic. As for aoe enfeebs, while you dont see em practical, id like to see em. I mean hell, a regular past time, fell cleaving, could benefit from something like diaga II/III.

But to each their own, id take a situationally useful thing over absolutely nothing at all, which is why i can atleast enjoy things like scarlet delierium (would like a longer duration though) or shield mastery, even if i dont get much use out of them. The times i do get use out of em make me smile and go "oh yeah, that was pretty handy right THERE!"

If you need Diaga for cleaving/AoE farming you're doing it wrong.
If I'm benefiting from Shield Mastery I'm doing something wrong.

I've don't recall really complaining about Schs having AoE phalanx, it doesn't really bother me. What I want is Phalanx 2 to be noticeably better than 1 and not just roughly equal with longer duration at 5 merits.

[Greatguardian]

Phalanx 2 is better than Phalanx 1.



For people with no Enhancing skill or gear for it.

Higher base, slower gains. It's really an extremely annoying spell whose formula catered to only the most epic gimps for who knows what reason.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Phalanx 2 is better than Phalanx 1.



For people with no Enhancing skill or gear for it.

Higher base, slower gains. It's really an extremely annoying spell whose formula catered to only the most epic gimps for who knows what reason.

Hopefully the +2 piece of relic equipment will actually put Phalanx II a bit of a distance above.

[saevel]

Technically Phalanx II already is higher the Phalanx 1, but only at 5/5 merits.

To illustrate, with 496 Enhancing magic (my current without getting new shinys).

Phalanx 1, Enhancing > 300 = 28 + ((Enhancing-300)/29)
Once your past 300 skill it's growth slows to an epic crawl.
@496 it would be 34.75 reduction.

Phalanx II is just (Enhancing/25) + (3 x merit) + 1 so
19.84 [19] + 15 + 1 = 35 reduction.

So 50% of your tier II merits used for a spell that is 1 point higher then what you got at level 33. PLD's get their own at level 77, and while their enhancing skill isn't no where near ours, the scaling of Phalanx 1 is such that a PLD can easily get 28~30 reduction. So then it becomes an argument of 50% of your tier II merits for 4~6 reduction.

Then there is the argument of cycling it across a bunch of people as Phalanx II can be single targeted. I can't imagine any current content where Phalanx II will make a difference where Accession Phalanx wouldn't be the better choice.

This is why I say Phalanx II is useless, it requires that you spend 50% of your tier II merits and thus forgo useful spells like Dia III / Slow II / Paralyze II for a spell that currently has no place in the game.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Already gutted my merits for voidwatch procs. I'm so hoping SE would fix that when they adjust merits...

I want to believe

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Already gutted my merits for voidwatch procs. I'm so hoping SE would fix that when they adjust merits...

I want to believe

Well seeing as how the full relic upgrades them in someway, I should hope they plan for you to actually get 'em all.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Well, at least I can skip pants. Again.

[saevel]

Well, at least I can skip pants. Again.

Yeah pants are gonna be my very last piece to worry about.

Currently (subject to changes)
5/5 Dia III
2/5 Slow II
1/5 Para II
1/5 Blind II
1/5 Bio III

Really want to knock off the Bio III / Blind II for more Slow / Paralyze.

[ManaKing]

Slow 2 and Bio 3 have always been my favorite. Bio 3 is more for Dynamis solo though. I like it when things don't hit me hard.

[Economizer]

Honestly, I think they should just let people put full points into the tier 2. As a White Mage, I'd be somewhat screwed by this compared to the benefits certain other classes would get, but I think they should add merit categories and revamp others when they do it. For example, Protectra V can give physical damage taken -3% (or some number that makes it on par with Shellra), or something that makes it somewhat useful.

Certain classes, have six categories, like Red Mage, one class - Ninja, has eight tier II categories, while most, like White Mage, have four. You could either accept classes having different amounts, accept them having different amounts, and allow more max merits for those that have less then six (while ignoring Ninja), or just add more categories.

For example, if the goal was to bring each class to eight categories once we have the ability to max out all categories, then Red Mage could probably get something like "Composure effect" that increases melee accuracy, decreases the recast penalty, and increases enspell effects, or "Gravity effect" that increases the evasion effect and "Addle effect" that increases the magic accuracy affect, or something to increase "Gain-Spell effect." Personally, I still think Phalanx should be other targetable under Composure or something like that and Phalanx II should just be deleted regardless, but that's just me.

[Seriha]

Meh, I've been game for the ability to fully merit everything. It would've been a hell of a task back in the day. Maybe not so much now, but still a healthy chunk of time invested. All the new WS probably doubled that investment, too.

[Crimson_Slasher]

Honestly most of the time i have capped merits. I spend too much time skilling and such so i usually cap merits in a week and have a bunch left to rot... So id be fine with this.

[Economizer]

Even if they uncapped the job categories we'd still have capped merits, which is why I've suggested this:


I think that regardless of how many things SE gives us to merit (even if they don't cap categories that don't need caps) we'll still eventually cap them. I suggest that to remedy this, we should be able to convert Merits to something else. Some form of currency would be nice, even if it is gil, but Beastmen's Seals or something like that would work too. Or it could work with one of the newer things they are doing like points for the daily reward system.

A few ideas of things that merit points could be transferred into (ratios subject to SE's judgement, and some items could cost more then one merit):


Gil
Conquest Points
Imperial Standing
Allied Notes
Cruor
Beastmen's Seals / Kindred's Seals / Kindred's Crests / High Kindred's Crests
Dominion Notes
Daily Reward Points
Traverser Stones
Ancient Beast Coins
Ancient Currency
Alexandrite


Of course, some of these things might not be suitable, but these are just suggestions.