Einherjar / Limbus / Nyzul Isle / Salvage - No More Proc Systems!!

[Unleashhell]

As the subject stats, renewel to these zones DO NOT NEED PROC SYSTEMS!!


These events should be able to be done everyday just like the revamp of dynamis.



Nyzul Isle and Einherjar should have Alexandrite and linen pouches available from those events.



New Chambers should be added to Einherjar with a new Einherjar specific Abjuration set as well as upgrades to existing Einherjar specific gear (Valhalla, Fork etc)



No single person treasure pools that can give an existing item a person already has.


Proc systems were fine in Abyssea, and we were forced to have them in the revamp of dynamis. Please do not force on us more proc systems in events that did not have them before.

[brayen]

oh god this a million times, i farmed coins in dynamis for first time the other day and im already annoyed. procs were fine for one event or two, but VW took it a step too far and reusing it in dynamis was just redundant.

[Alhanelem]

I approve of this message 999%.

[Insaniac]

/signedddd

[Killvearn]

Yeah no more proc please.

[Dais]

I liked weakness procs in abyssea, where extra work gave extra rewards, but I do not care for how they work in voidwatch. In voidwatch you can work very hard maximizing lights for little more than a mahogony log. I am a little torn on dynamis, however. It isn't the triggering I mind in dynamis, it's how stubborn the monsters can be. Instead of fighting at a natural pace all we do is spam until we proc.
I really wouldn't mind needing some easy to trigger generic weakness for bonus items in these event renewals, but that dose not seem to be the direction the dev team is heading.

[Aeonk]

The problem with completely scrapping the proc system is it lets the game go back to ToAU job favoritism again. At least with the proc system, 5 jobs get some love instead of like... 2.

Ideally SE should make every job desirable in one way or another, but until they get that right (they never will, thanks to the fickle attitude of players) a proc system is the easiest way to make sure no one gets completely left out.

That said, adding it to a lowman type event like Nyzul Isle would do more harm than good. And even in large scale events like Einherjar... it should be possible to get decent loot with just TH alone.
If they could get the balance down to where every job has a decent chance of proc'ing like in VW, and it has a significant impact like near-guarenteed drops like in abyssea... that'd be fine.

[Tawnee]

No more procs! No more procs! No more procs!
いいえprocファイルシステムはご遠慮ください！

[SpankWustler]

Ideally SE should make every job desirable in one way or another, but until they get that right (they never will, thanks to the fickle attitude of players) a proc system is the easiest way to make sure no one gets completely left out.

It does help, but it's FAR from a magic bullet.

It rarely matters how potent the procifying spell or ability is, just that there's a character around with it. Thus, a job there solely to proc stuff is likely to be on somebody's second character, wearing only a subligar and some basic stuff, and used only to proc stuff. Also, somebody can sometimes just sub something weird.

Sometimes, being there just to proc something can almost be worse than not being there or just being there because your bros and bro-ettes are there. Blue Magic procs in Voidwatch are more of a millstone around Blue Mage's neck than a ticket for inclusion, for example.

The proc system was interesting for a while, but I really don't want it in everything.

[Tamoa]

Agreed, having to proc in Abyssea, Dynamis and Voidwatch is enough. No more, please.



Blue Magic procs in Voidwatch are more of a millstone around Blue Mage's neck than a ticket for inclusion, for example.


This x 1000. The few times I have been blu for Voidwatch I've nearly torn all my hair off in sheer frustration.

[Aeonk]

It does help, but it's FAR from a magic bullet.

It rarely matters how potent the procifying spell or ability is, just that there's a character around with it. Thus, a job there solely to proc stuff is likely to be on somebody's second character, wearing only a subligar and some basic stuff, and used only to proc stuff. Also, somebody can sometimes just sub something weird.

Sometimes, being there just to proc something can almost be worse than not being there or just being there because your bros and bro-ettes are there. Blue Magic procs in Voidwatch are more of a millstone around Blue Mage's neck than a ticket for inclusion, for example.

The proc system was interesting for a while, but I really don't want it in everything.

This is true, I was actually thinking that a refinement to the proc'ing system would be in order. As it is right now, you're correct. None of the systems in place are perfect.

This may be a bit scatterbrained, but this is something I was thinking about in terms of improving the proc system as a whole.

Since SE is going to be revamping Nyzul Isle in the near future, I'd imagine Mythic WS's are once again going to be pretty commonplace (not that they were rare to begin with.)

They could make a sort of hybrid system between the Blue proc'ing in abyssea and VW's system.

General Rundown:
You have 2 different ways to proc with weapons, NQ weakness and HQ weakness. The NQ weakness would be a generic WS that most jobs have access too. HQ weakness would be Mythic WS's. Every job has one.

The difference between an NQ and HQ trigger would be the increase in drop rate on desirable loot. This loot still has a reasonable shot of dropping with just TH (which makes the entire system somewhat optional, but still gives incentives for trying to incorporate it into your playstyle/alliance make-up.) But the NQ trigger would increase drop rate significantly, and the HQ trigger would make it near guarenteed.

Keep the whole "time aspect" of blue procing from abyssea intact.
Weapon types that have no Mythic WS at all would be removed from the list entirely.

Example: Let's say... you have Polearm. NQ weakness would be something like Raiden thrust: DRG, SAM, PLD, WAR, etc. have access to. But to trigger the HQ weakness, you have to use the Mythic WS for that weapon type: Drakesbane, a DRG exclusive. This way, even if a DRG is not dealing as much damage as a SAM or WAR (purely hypothetical here...), he compensates by giving out better loot during Piercing time.

Other example: A weapon like Sword, which PLD/BLU/RDM have Mythic WS's for. All 3 would be able to proc HQ weakness. Guarenteed. This way, during Slashing time, if it happens to be sword, the RDM/PLD/BLU have it covered, all the while covering NQ weaknesses for other damage types when it's not Sword or Slashing time.

The way I see it, it means that every job during their specific time has a reason for being present at an event, but if people choose to just bring <insert top DD here> to their runs, those players aren't completely screwed. They can still do NQ procs with other weapon types during times where their HQ proc isn't a possible option.

It's entirely possible that I may be overlooking something that makes this entire idea stupid, this was more of a "top of my head" thing. Just a thought. Either way, it's late. And I'm gettin some sleep.

[Winrie]

Making a proc system different after this long is a horrible idea and secondly changing it so other jobs are "used more" is foolish, you have to make a proc system for everything so the jobs stay useful. There's a reason jobs like pup are sidelined, they are unusable for endgame events as they are useless additions.

[Glacont]

1) 24 Hour Entry. Einherjar will be enjoyable to spam. It works for Dynamis, and it will work for this event

2) Switch up the Treasure Chest Rewards to:

+ Abj (Higher Drop Rate) With the introduction of Relic+, and the currecnt open market of AF3, there is no need to hold back. Let us relish the spoils of old hnm.
+ Tatter Abjs
+ Cotton Coin Purse & Linen Coin Purse. Usher in more Mythic weapons.
+ "Salvage Materials Only" instead of normal crafting materials. A Rebirth of a Good event.

3) Base upon everyone's preformance in the field, from waves of mobs to the boss, the alliance is given a healthly amount of:

Tokens
Imperial Standing
Assualt Points
Theron Ichor

7k to 8K worth. Mythic now seems more in reach.

3) Install an Eniherjar NPC next to all WhiteGate NPC. Thier only function will be to port You to Nashmau for the price of 100 Therion Ichor. I have nothing aginst the Tidal Wave Coat, nor the Nashmau earring, or even racing through Alzadaal Undersea Ruins, but this way is more effective. If you're running late, and you need to rush at the last min for whatever reason, there will be no excuse.

4) Provide 3 new wings, where the jobs of ToaU take the spolight:

Buccaneer's wing = Upon entry Your stats are left in hands of chance. You can suffer a Bust Duration for the fight; You May enter with a full inventory of Besieged Temp Items; You may have one roll up (thinking ahead with the 3 rolls coming into pratice); or You may have enter as normal. For each member of the alliance the outcome will be different.

Immortal wing = The choice of your spells offensive/defensive will insure or unhinge your chance of victory. This will apply to the waves and the boss (Raubahn), where one blu of your alliance must duel. If anyone but a single blu approaches the battle is lost. You are given 5 mins to prepair spells, while Raubahn buff himself.

Puppetmaster Wing = I am not sure what to place here.

While playing in the three new wings, Cor Blu & Pup JAs and Spells have an Higher Potency than the rest of the alliance. This is thier home turf, and they should have home game advantage. Bias? Yes.

As for mobs, off the top of My head, I say bring in various characters from the ToaU missions/Quest. Raubahn whom is up to date on spells; Razfahd with a mixture of old and new moves; Gessho useing all the new spells. In short be creative. Incorporate as much of ToaU as you can.

Odin: Add a Defender Ring as one of the drops. This alone is sexy.

These are all rough drafts, but something to play with.

[Arcon]

Odin: Add a Defender Ring as one of the drops. This alone is sexy.

A while ago I would have laughed at you for suggestion that. Now I fear it would be the best shot I had at it, next to Mog Bonanza.

The other suggestions are kinda... I really don't wanna have to bring a COR, BLU or PUP for that. Why would you wanna make it dependant on one certain job, some groups may not even have? Especially a BLU duel? Pass.

[uptempo]

No more proc system.

For that guy wanting a warp to Nashmau npc, unlock synergy buy a silver earring (1kish npc) and a nashmau waystone (10k) get someone to craft it there you go 30 charges to warp to Nashmau from anywere.

[detlef]

The problem with completely scrapping the proc system is it lets the game go back to ToAU job favoritism again. At least with the proc system, 5 jobs get some love instead of like... 2.Abyssea proc system actually excludes more that it includes.

Everything else is just holding back damage and drawing out the fight longer than it has to be.

[Afania]

Tokens
Imperial Standing
Assualt Points
Theron Ichor

7k to 8K worth. Mythic now seems more in reach.



Every requirement of Mythic is already easy enough except alex. You can easily get 3k token in one Nyzul run if you start from F100 and climb 5+ floors(which is easy nowadays). There's no need to adjust token/AP/Ichor drops at all.

All I see is just some impatient ppl wanting to finish Mythic in 1 month like empy instead of 1+ year, and keep asking SE to make this easier, make that faster. However by making Mythic faster to build will also erase the epicness of finishing this weapon, and thus not much point to make it(for most of the jobs) anymore.


I hope Mythic stays on the top as a weapon requires most dedication to make, period. Once a new player without one job 95, haven't finish spell list, doesn't gear swap, zero AF3+1(wearing full pink) and only knows how to spam MP costly spell like Gob rush told me he wants to make a Mythic, and been starting working on Ichor/token stuff, before doing things that's more important and provides bigger boost to his job like grind Abyssea gears and empy.

If Mythic gets THAT easy to make we'd just see a bunch of more Mythic owners in pink, who doesn't know what's the priority. Mythic should remain as a weapon that you need to gear your job decently first before you can do it, and shouldn't be available to full pink players. At 75 cap this kind of player won't even clear salvage/Nyzul, now you can pretty much clear it naked.

[Aeonk]

Abyssea proc system actually excludes more that it includes.

Everything else is just holding back damage and drawing out the fight longer than it has to be.

Depends on what you're trying to proc. BLM's got a hell of a lot more love after abyssea came out.

[Darkvalkyr]

The problem with completely scrapping the proc system is it lets the game go back to ToAU job favoritism again. At least with the proc system, 5 jobs get some love instead of like... 2.

Ideally SE should make every job desirable in one way or another, but until they get that right (they never will, thanks to the fickle attitude of players) a proc system is the easiest way to make sure no one gets completely left out.

By that logic, I'd only want the jobs that proc the most.
In abyssea, it becomes 'we should have NIN, we should have WAR, we should have WHM, we should have BLM, BLU and BRD. Everything else? We covered just about every proc, why care?'

[SpankWustler]

I hope Mythic stays on the top as a weapon requires most dedication to make, period. Once a new player without one job 95, haven't finish spell list, doesn't gear swap, zero AF3+1(wearing full pink) and only knows how to spam MP costly spell like Gob rush told me he wants to make a Mythic, and been starting working on Ichor/token stuff, before doing things that's more important and provides bigger boost to his job like grind Abyssea gears and empy.

If Mythic gets THAT easy to make we'd just see a bunch of more Mythic owners in pink, who doesn't know what's the priority. Mythic should remain as a weapon that you need to gear your job decently first before you can do it, and shouldn't be available to full pink players. At 75 cap this kind of player won't even clear salvage/Nyzul, now you can pretty much clear it naked.

Given how difficult it can be to take advantage of most Mythic weapons, this wouldn't bother me at all.

Some bro who doesn't change his imaginary pants would get to feel happy about his shiny thing, and knowledgeable people get to point out how someone that dense would actually do more damage with a simple fire-path Magian weapon and joke about it. Seems like a win/win situation to me.

[Orenwald]

I... like procs in Dynamis. stops it from being the same boring "Throw 18 DDs at it till it dies" borefest that Dynamis used to be. Dynamis was boring as sin before, and now I actually am having so much fun I'm making a relic weapon.

[Aeonk]

By that logic, I'd only want the jobs that proc the most.
In abyssea, it becomes 'we should have NIN, we should have WAR, we should have WHM, we should have BLM, BLU and BRD. Everything else? We covered just about every proc, why care?'

And what's the alternative? Ukon WAR and WHM onry?

I already stated in my second post that the current proc system isn't perfect. Far from it. I even threw out some possible suggestions to improve on the current system to include more jobs without being the complete clusterfuck that is voidwatch.

So yea, until SE can properly balance the jobs to give incentive to bring all of them, the proc system is the next best thing. 6 jobs being useful is better than 2.

[Greatguardian]

SE is never going to win at making every job useful in one particular event. There isn't a single event in the world that would ever be able to do this properly, not while keeping all 20 jobs in this game unique.

The solution is simply more events. Let MNK shine in one place, and PUP in another. We already know that every job has some sort of niche where they function better than their peers. If you want to limit the power of specialist classes, restrict party sizes for certain events or drop people in different areas of a map to start with. I know I'll be much better able to survive on my own while my party regroups on Summoner or Puppetmaster than I would be on Monk or Warrior without backup.

Beyond that, it's important to make rewards enticing from every style of event. People do Abyssea and generally ignore Walk of Echoes (which is extremely hybrid-friendly) because Abyssea drops better shit. In trying to make the events unique, SE is going to end up making the rewards for each event different - and when things are different, one piece will always be better than the alternative, making the latter worthless.

Voidwatch can't be the be-all end-all. The Last Stand can't be the be-all end-all. If you're attempting to create a balanced environment for all 20 jobs in Endgame, then no singular event should take the stage as the epitome of endgame development because no single event is ever going to be able to fully utilize every one of the jobs in this game.

Create multiple paths to the same goal. That's how you encourage variety.

[Concerned4FFxi]

Aeonk,
While I like your proc idea, I don't think proc belongs in these events because they are made to move very fast thru the event in order to low man it, and proc takes up alot of time. In dynamis it was sort of ok because the purpose for said event, once you did a clear run or new hnm gear run, it's all about farming currency/af2. But with limbus or einherjar for example, these are events that have nothing to do with farming so to speak and everything to do with "hurry up, hurry up" because you need to get those 5 floors done in nyzil, you need to clear the chambers in 30 minutes, you need to get the te chest in limbus and get your butt up to the next floor if you want that chip. So, proc for these events would totally ruin the event for low manning, and lets face it they are not going to be suddenly popular to the point that that 1. you are going to find 6+ people to do the event with, except einherjar which you already need a decent amount of people and that's hard to come by if you don't have a ls just for that event, and 2. who wants to share with 6 people the drops when you can already low man the stuff with 3-4 (except einherjar, and if you can 3-4 man it hit me up please)?

[Helel]

I... like procs in Dynamis. stops it from being the same boring "Throw 18 DDs at it till it dies" borefest that Dynamis used to be. Dynamis was boring as sin before, and now I actually am having so much fun I'm making a relic weapon.

And spamming steps and flourishes is not boring...? Give me a break.

[Aeonk]

SE is never going to win at making every job useful in one particular event. There isn't a single event in the world that would ever be able to do this properly, not while keeping all 20 jobs in this game unique.

The solution is simply more events. Let MNK shine in one place, and PUP in another. We already know that every job has some sort of niche where they function better than their peers. If you want to limit the power of specialist classes, restrict party sizes for certain events or drop people in different areas of a map to start with. I know I'll be much better able to survive on my own while my party regroups on Summoner or Puppetmaster than I would be on Monk or Warrior without backup.

Beyond that, it's important to make rewards enticing from every style of event. People do Abyssea and generally ignore Walk of Echoes (which is extremely hybrid-friendly) because Abyssea drops better shit. In trying to make the events unique, SE is going to end up making the rewards for each event different - and when things are different, one piece will always be better than the alternative, making the latter worthless.

Voidwatch can't be the be-all end-all. The Last Stand can't be the be-all end-all. If you're attempting to create a balanced environment for all 20 jobs in Endgame, then no singular event should take the stage as the epitome of endgame development because no single event is ever going to be able to fully utilize every one of the jobs in this game.

Create multiple paths to the same goal. That's how you encourage variety.
See, that's a fair solution in my book.

I'm not saying the proc system is a must-have deal, but to completely strip it away and not include content that other less desireable jobs are able to participate in is a step backwards, not forward.
That seems to be what others are suggesting. And that's not a real solution.

Maybe if the revamps SE has in mind for Nyzul/salvage/einherjar make for more diversity, that will help. But going off of what we know the events to be so far, I see many jobs getting the shaft once again. I hope SE proves me wrong, I really do.

[detlef]

And spamming steps and flourishes is not boring...? Give me a break.This so much. Seriously.

[Afania]

Given how difficult it can be to take advantage of most Mythic weapons, this wouldn't bother me at all.

Some bro who doesn't change his imaginary pants would get to feel happy about his shiny thing, and knowledgeable people get to point out how someone that dense would actually do more damage with a simple fire-path Magian weapon and joke about it. Seems like a win/win situation to me.

Yes but this game is all about making progress, and achieve more goal after seeing your character improved. And Mythic(or w/e epic weapon it is) is a trophy of achieving your goal after you improve your performance.

Back at lv 75 era when I just ding 75, didn't know how to gear swap(or play my jobs properly), didn't have an EG event gear, I tried my first Nyzul run, and joined a Nyzul static tried to clear. That's when Nyzul was still challenging for newer ppl without experience. After we failed Floor 1~5 run for a month and static disbanded because of that, I realized I need better gears. I joined a dynamis LS to get BLU relic body for refresh, and got sea access+ joined limbus LS to upgrade my BLU AF1 to +1, after some gear grind and made different gear sets, our static reformed, and finally able to clear F100. That was an epic moment in my FFXI life, Nyzul 100 clear seemed impossible months ago, and in the end all the obsticle was overcomed and finally able to get clear.

I wouldn't even think about stuff such as doing Mythic before I have decent gear back at 75 cap, just because clearing Nyzul, salvage, ToAU HNMs, Einherjar, wasn't easy for someone just ding 75 with no EG experience/gear/friends, and there are priorities I need to do before attempting hardest weapon in this game.

Now you can pretty much clear all of those naked. It's like playing a RPG without trying to get better items and lv up, then you go to final boss right away. Do you fight Sephiroth in FF7 before getting enough materia/items/levels on Cloud? No you don't. You attempt the boss fight after a long journey, you don't attempy to fight him right from the beginning. Nyzul is already easy enough since you can climb 5+ floors nowadays, and by adding more tokens that just makes the entire section of this quest a joke. Now there's nothing to stop a lv 1 Onion knight to fight Dark cloud like in FF3, you don't need to make any progress, you just automically fight the final boss and automically wins. What's the meaning of even playing it then?

I've seen many ppl asking this and asking that on the forum about mythic weapon. Ask to remove the assault 3 ppl requirement because ppl can't find 2 other character to do assault(you can't even find 2 CHARACTERS to do an 5~30 min event in an MMORPG, seriously?) Ask unlimited Nyzul tag/Einherjar entrance so they can spam Nyzul/Einherjar like how they spam empy 10hrs a day and finish it in a week. All I see is just a bunch of impatient ppl want Mythic weapon to be something like Abyssea empy weapons, wants duobox-able assault like abyssea, no cool down time for nyzul/einherjar so they can spam both events for 10hrs a day and finish Mythic in 1 month. And the fact that most of the old events are easy means there are no obsticles too.

I started working on Mythic 1.5 year ago before empy even exist, joined 5 different Einherjar LS, made alliance of 18 ppl or join LS events to kill ToAU HNMs, made assault/salvage/nyzul static for alexandrite/assault clear/tokens, meet all sorts of ppl and play with different ppl during the process, did those title fights while it was still epic and challenging. The experience of making a Mythic(at least before lv cap increase) is nothing like soloing on BST in dyna for 2 months for a relic, or dual box with a mule 10hrs a day for an empy. There are epic moments during the process, unlike doing relic/empy nowadays. I can understand that due to lv cap increase, ToAU content is no longer worth anything challenge. But I still think 1~2 years is reasonable amount of time to finish a Mythic(some ppl spend 3+ years on relic back in the day, so 1 year isn't even as bad), but certainly not 1~2 months like relic/empy.

If you wanna make Mythic weapon easy and able to finish it naked that's fine, but we already have empy that can be done in 1 week, and relic can be done in 2 months with a mule, with many ppl owning more than 2 empy or relic. We don't need another fast cast weapon that can be done in one month and ppl ended up getting 20 Mythics for every job. I've got 3k token with just 3 ppl in pt in Nyzul in one run, and that's only 1.5 month of spamming Nyzul to finish this part if you want to. There are very little reason to make it drop more. Mythic should remain as the long journey to an end, a final goal for the job you truely loved that you would only do it once a life time, and a memoriable moment after this goal accomplished. If you really want a Mythic weapon and love your job enough, you will finish it eventually, instead of complaining over here because you want to finish it in 1 month instead of 1 year.

[Ravenmore]

Procs are for one thing alone and that was to combat zergs. Now kill speed and damage take a back seat to getting procs. They are doing this since its cheaper to draw out content for as long as the player base will put up with it so they don't have to make more content. They have no idea how else to do it with in the frame work they boxed them selfs into with having to work around the PS2 code limits and can't pull off the tricks other MMOs can.

[Tamoa]

I... like procs in Dynamis. stops it from being the same boring "Throw 18 DDs at it till it dies" borefest that Dynamis used to be. Dynamis was boring as sin before, and now I actually am having so much fun I'm making a relic weapon.

I like the changes to dynamis. Being able to enter for free once a day, solo, and get currency/relic armour was a change for the better. And I don't think having to proc to get currency was such a bad solution. Otherwise it would be too easy and the currency prices would have crashed a long time ago. They are already on the way down, at least on Asura, and Ru'lude is packed with people bazaaring currency.

Could SE have come up with another way of restricting currency drop? Quite possibly. As it is, I don't mind the proc system in dynamis, but like I already said - no more please SE.

[Glacont]

@ Afania I Reviewed your first post:

It seem to give the imppression of new players given the chance to grab something with ease, where a vetran, like yourself, has work hard to achieve. And that if this is put into motion it will only be a slap in the face to those whose been here pre-Level 75 cap raised.

And the second post:

Where you go into detail as to why this should not be.

I myself am not one of the new players; no disrespect to them. I've put in work at various activites since 04. Look Me up on FXIAH.com (Fenrir) and take stock under the sub-heading 'Achievements' if you doubt My words. Mythic is perhaps one of the last things I have yet to fully give My attention. I touch bases with most requirements out of sheer game play, but not all the meat and potatos. Why? Chuck it up to Salvage and Einherjar being My main obession during that era, and by the time the smoke cleared Abyssea was in the mix, however, I stray from topic. Am I one of those impatient players? For obtaninig My own Mythic.. in this case I can say yes, my reason for being impatient are not important, but you have to admit the number of requirements 'as a whole' are a bit much. I have made the "suggestions" as means to revive Einherjar, Salvage, and open the doors for Mythic Weapons to be in reach; Not handed to anyone, but simplely put into reach if someone wants to take that path. From My own personal stand point, there is nothing wrong with this.

Your posts combined hold alot of passion, and strong beliefs. Out of respect, which you've certainly earned, I'll simply say "Ok". I do understand where You are coming from, and what You're saying, but I do not fully agree.

/bow :) [No sarcasim is intended]


With that aside, procs applies to Abyssea, Dynamis, and VoidWatch. Procs does not, however, apply to Limbus, Nyzul Isle, or Einherjar. These are fast pace, hack n' slash, events and should never be slowed down for any reasons.

[Dart]

to sum up the wall-o-text

plz SE no more proc systems. We're getting worn out on them.

[Vold]

What Greatguardian said.

I've always considered the absolute best way to go about making all jobs useful, is to have specific encounters where they will shine at and cannot be won without them. Perhaps not even engaged without them. Sort of like the Abyssea content and system minus procs. It'd be a zone full of content and NMs where if they drop drg war whm blu gear then only those jobs can engage and kill it, or perhaps all jobs can engage but only those four jobs can get the kill shot or do serious damage or any variation of that.

"usefulness" is NOT restricted to dealing the most damage or being the best healer or being a ranged attacker. If your job is required to win an encounter well then guess what? You just became useful in the grand scheme of things. It is absolutely no different from anything else requiring blank to win. No different from BLM armies or zergs or SMN armies or typically 6 man group of tank healer nuker debuffer melee melee. Whatever gets the win = useful. SE just needs to go about it differently. Mostly they just need to dish out more content than not. I stick to my guns. FFXI end game is extremely weak in size compared to most MMOs. And because of that we've had to live with cookie cutting our way to victory. Events are fine and dandy but at the end of the day events don't support 20 jobs. We need more Abyssea style content, in the sense that we have a zone to go to and NMs to farm for all jobs in the game. NOT in the sense of atmas, buffs, procs. Sky/sea/Abyssea whatever floats your boat as an example. And if we're going to keep doing event style end game at least mix it up so one group of jobs don't always remain the best options.

But of course looking at VW, all of what I just typed probably was a waste of time. They're staff is on life support. They're trying to do content that appeases all jobs for a change. And that effort is admirable. But it's not working due to the nature of the NMs and the drop system. Sky was very successful/still successful for good reasons, not that we all enjoyed sky farming back in the day. The system is great but it needed higher drop rates. Why they have swayed so far from that style of end game is beyond me. But we need more of it, and less of... ugh. Voidwhatever.

[Alhanelem]

I... like procs in Dynamis. stops it from being the same boring "Throw 18 DDs at it till it dies" borefest that Dynamis used to be. Dynamis was boring as sin before, and now I actually am having so much fun I'm making a relic weapon.
Not proposing that current systems be removed, only that they stop reusing the same concept over and over for future content.

Also, on Dynamis specifically since the specific proc in each category is random every time, it's not like the strategy is much different than you described. It's either "weaponskill it til it dies," "Nuke it til it dies," or "Kill it til it dies after JA proc". It's not bad, no, but I don't really care to keep having it in future content.

[Glamdring]

The problem with completely scrapping the proc system is it lets the game go back to ToAU job favoritism again. At least with the proc system, 5 jobs get some love instead of like... 2.

Ideally SE should make every job desirable in one way or another, but until they get that right (they never will, thanks to the fickle attitude of players) a proc system is the easiest way to make sure no one gets completely left out.

That said, adding it to a lowman type event like Nyzul Isle would do more harm than good. And even in large scale events like Einherjar... it should be possible to get decent loot with just TH alone.
If they could get the balance down to where every job has a decent chance of proc'ing like in VW, and it has a significant impact like near-guarenteed drops like in abyssea... that'd be fine.

As Opposed to Abyssea job favoritism you mean?

Honestly, I want the revamp on these events to actually revive the old pt-based XP system where any job (except possibly bst... /sigh) could work as long as you keep BALANCE in the build. Revive the old tank/puller/dd/dd/healer/support etc. builds. After all, it was good enough to keep the game running for 7 years until the lack of end-game content took it's toll.

[Tawnee]

Revive the old tank/puller/dd/dd/healer/support etc. builds.

Yes because we all remember there was absolutely no job favoritism back then >.>

[LeaderofAtlantis]

Proc system can be used for 1 event only - Nyzul Isle - and only as one of the conditions for a clear. I would like to see a bit more variety beyond "go find the lamps and avoid gears!" which pops up a lot more often than I'd like.

[Unleashhell]

It would be nice if they actually asked for our feedback on whether or not they intend to add some kind of proc system into these events. Even though I started this topic in hopes to get some feedback, I really feel the devs just say we are revamping events whether you like the changes or not. One thing I feel they forget is that we are the ones paying for this every month. We should have a little more say it what changes happen imo. Its like they already have the changes in motion, writing code, and at the last minute say here are the changes we are implementing do you like them? How about ask us, the players what we would like BEFORE starting the revamps of events. Then give feedback to us if the changes we would like to see can happen or if they cant. Its just a waste of manpower hours making changes nobody wants.

[detlef]

Well, procs are annoying and don't add any fun to content but the reason you have procs in Dynamis is to prevent people from mass-killing mobs for currency. Dynamis procs are pretty much a necessary evil.

[Mifaco]

It would be nice if they actually asked for our feedback on whether or not they intend to add some kind of proc system into these events. Even though I started this topic in hopes to get some feedback, I really feel the devs just say we are revamping events whether you like the changes or not. One thing I feel they forget is that we are the ones paying for this every month. We should have a little more say it what changes happen imo. Its like they already have the changes in motion, writing code, and at the last minute say here are the changes we are implementing do you like them? How about ask us, the players what we would like BEFORE starting the revamps of events. Then give feedback to us if the changes we would like to see can happen or if they cant. Its just a waste of manpower hours making changes nobody wants.

If they ask for feedback, it will be in the JP forums, not here.

Thus, if this will have any hope of getting read, the OP needs to be translated (not Google translate) and posted in the JP forums

[xiozen]

I Google Translated ver. of this into the japanese forums; so hopefully SE understands how serious the issue is. Thanks for the post. Rate up!

[Alhanelem]

That's not true, they ask for feedback in both sections on the same topics.

They respond directly to JP threads more because they're Japanese and it's easier for them to do so. Any english posts from English reps need to go through the Japanese folk in japan before they can post it, or there's a risk what they post won't be accurate and people will complain about that.

There is going to be at least a minor disconnect between he communities no matter how hard they try.

[Sevokevo]

Signed... No more procs.

[Meyi]

I Google Translated ver. of this into the japanese forums; so hopefully SE understands how serious the issue is. Thanks for the post. Rate up!

Hmm, well, google translate is pretty terrible. I can tell when people use google translate and copy/paste in the game because their sentences always have 'watashi wa' or 'anata wa'.

I would translate for us, but my Japanese skills are pathetic. ; ;

[Glacont]

Hmm, well, google translate is pretty terrible. I can tell when people use google translate and copy/paste in the game because their sentences always have 'watashi wa' or 'anata wa'.

I would translate for us, but my Japanese skills are pathetic. ; ;

Whom here has the skills to do so?

[Alhanelem]

I Google Translated ver. of this into the japanese forums; so hopefully SE understands how serious the issue is. Thanks for the post. Rate up!

You don't have any idea how bad you will sound when you post machine-translated japanese on the japanese forums. It's extremely obvious.

[Afania]

@ Afania I Reviewed your first post:

It seem to give the imppression of new players given the chance to grab something with ease, where a vetran, like yourself, has work hard to achieve. And that if this is put into motion it will only be a slap in the face to those whose been here pre-Level 75 cap raised.



I really have no problem about old content being easier, since it's inevitable and I got lots of benefit from it myself too, able to obtain old gears solo/duo when it used to require a LS to do. But just feel sad to see newer players would rather do events like Einherjar/nyzul for Mythic before having one job 95, and no spells/AF3+1 when they could have spend their time in Abyssea to get basic AF3+1 first. And there's nothing to stop them, since you don't really need any work to clear those old events anymore.

This applies to relic too, a perle BST can solo a relic in a couple of months, and actually more efficent than say, a pimp pt of 4 empy/+2 DDs+1 healer. Are there even any point to work your job in this game anymore? If you can clear everything, obtain legendary tier weapon without doing some work first. Not that I agree with old 75 era only LS leaders gets relic, but getting top tier weapon without making progress on your job first or play with other of ppl just doesn't seem right, either.



Am I one of those impatient players? For obtaninig My own Mythic.. in this case I can say yes, my reason for being impatient are not important, but you have to admit the number of requirements 'as a whole' are a bit much. I have made the "suggestions" as means to revive Einherjar, Salvage, and open the doors for Mythic Weapons to be in reach; Not handed to anyone, but simplely put into reach if someone wants to take that path. From My own personal stand point, there is nothing wrong with this.



Yes I agree that some of the Mythic requirements are a bit too much. I agree that alexandrite requirement is too much when average alex drop in a run with 4 pouch(boss hardly drop pouch) is only 60. If boss pouch drop is 100% it can be a lot better. And 80% of the time whoever come and do salvage usually got nothing they want because the drop rate of gears are so low as well. ZNM trophy requirement is just fine after last update since it's now 100%. Token requirement is certainly fine when you can farm token a lot faster than it used to be by climbing faster. I also made a couple of Nyzul statics and helped a couple Nyzul climb pts for it, IMO Nyzul requirement is one of the most enjoyable stage because I get to play with many different ppl all over the place, help many new players to climb, and it's generally not as stressful as other events. Einherjar requirement is debatable, because it requires 1 year of doing Einherjar to finish. However considering you only spend 1~2hr a week on this event, and 50~100 hr of play time total, it's really not as bad. Just go do something else during the cool down time, no need to spam it over and over daily and finish it in 2 weeks.

And about assult, once I saw someone asking SE to lower the assault entrance requirement(when it's already very low). Again, I wonder if ppl in this game still play with other ppl other then your close friend? Or they just solo/duo everything? Try to find other ppl wanting to clear assault and make a static? The process of making a static with ppl you don't know and clear all assaults to reach the goal of captain is way more fun than solo/duo everything with a mule/close friend IMO.

[Afania]

The problem with completely scrapping the proc system is it lets the game go back to ToAU job favoritism again. At least with the proc system, 5 jobs get some love instead of like... 2.



Proc system is way worse than ToAU era in terms of job favoritism. And you can make up the disadvantage of certain job by improving your performance or try different strategy in TOAU era. DDx3+COR+BRD+RDM is standard bird merit pt setup. That means if you're a PLD you can't do merit pt? A PLD focused on good DD build with 2 other DDs wouldn't get much less EXP/hr compare with 3 DDs with average/below average gears. BLM can join BLM pt for merit point.

BLM and PLD wasn't loved in Nyzul, but I've cleared Nyzul run at 75 cap with PLD and BLM in pt before. It works, may be harder, but still doable. BRD is loved in Einherjar, but if you don't have a BRD leveled, and play other job instead, your einherjar gear progress won't be slower than another BRD in the LS since lotting right is based on attendance/points.

On the other hand in Abyssea pt with right job is at least 3x efficent than pt with wrong jobs. Even though pt with wrong jobs can still kill the NM just fine. I can solo(or duo with any random job like PUP) KI NM for empy on BLU, but a NIN+WAR combo with 100% proc is always 4 times faster than me(even if the WAR is naked except weapons). Even though my pt killing speed isn't slower than NIN+naked WAR, but the amount of proc available just makes a huge difference.

Proc system just makes the game lacking variety, you can't play the job you like, you can't see your pt performance improve by improving your job because another half naked pt with right job still farms KI 4x faster. And the only way to improve efficency is to go home and job change, or lv right jobs, and there are no way out of this. Job favoritism in TOAU era is nowhere near as bad as proc.

[SpankWustler]

I Google Translated ver. of this into the japanese forums; so hopefully SE understands how serious the issue is.

The development team is now aware that fish are on fire in the trouser leg trouser trouser leg of the contingent of beginnings in that place. Fish bringing fire to the hill. Fish bringing water to the hill. People are unhappy with fish.

[Aeonk]

Proc system is way worse than ToAU era in terms of job favoritism. And you can make up the disadvantage of certain job by improving your performance or try different strategy in TOAU era. DDx3+COR+BRD+RDM is standard bird merit pt setup. That means if you're a PLD you can't do merit pt? A PLD focused on good DD build with 2 other DDs wouldn't get much less EXP/hr compare with 3 DDs with average/below average gears. BLM can join BLM pt for merit point.

BLM and PLD wasn't loved in Nyzul, but I've cleared Nyzul run at 75 cap with PLD and BLM in pt before. It works, may be harder, but still doable. BRD is loved in Einherjar, but if you don't have a BRD leveled, and play other job instead, your einherjar gear progress won't be slower than another BRD in the LS since lotting right is based on attendance/points.

On the other hand in Abyssea pt with right job is at least 3x efficent than pt with wrong jobs. Even though pt with wrong jobs can still kill the NM just fine. I can solo(or duo with any random job like PUP) KI NM for empy on BLU, but a NIN+WAR combo with 100% proc is always 4 times faster than me(even if the WAR is naked except weapons). Even though my pt killing speed isn't slower than NIN+naked WAR, but the amount of proc available just makes a huge difference.

Proc system just makes the game lacking variety, you can't play the job you like, you can't see your pt performance improve by improving your job because another half naked pt with right job still farms KI 4x faster. And the only way to improve efficency is to go home and job change, or lv right jobs, and there are no way out of this. Job favoritism in TOAU era is nowhere near as bad as proc.

I call bullshit on that. The same arguement you made against procs could be used to counter your own ToAU job favoritism preference.

"You still have a reasonable chance of getting the KI after each kill, even if you don't proc. Or getting seals to drop without grellow. Sure it's not as efficient as bringing X,Y, and Z but that's ok."

Sound familiar?

You can't adopt a "well these jobs do good enough" attitude for ToAU content like nyzul isle then conveniently forget to apply that same mentallity for abyssea.

In ToAU, it was SAM + RDM + COR onry. With abyssea's system, jobs like NIN, BLM, WHM, BLU, MNK, and WAR got a little more attention and actually saw some use. Last I checked, 6 is > 3.

[Arcon]

In ToAU, it was SAM + RDM + COR onry.

I don't think we're referring to the same thing when we say ToAU. Treasures of Aht Urhgan? I frequently used WHM, BLM, SCH, BRD, PLD, WAR, DRG, MNK (any DD really), even NIN, and if people wanted to come on less optimal jobs I always let them, because it was always useful. And that goes for almost every event (Salvage was a bit restricting, but Nyzul, Einherjar, Assaults and even HNMs allowed most jobs). In Abyssea these jobs aren't useful. Don't get me wrong, you can still bring them, but there are just combinations that are a hell of a lot better, and it's solely because of weakness staggering. Because any DD can kill any mob in Abyssea in no time. But here's the thing, NQ mobs die in one WS, most HQ NMs still die in < 3min, farming low tier NMs still < 1min. The only time sink is staggering and farming, and since every job can farm just as well, staggering is the bottleneck. So why come DRG when you can come WAR and have almost all red procs? And having more people (i.e. DRG+WAR) doesn't help either, because fighting itself is the lowest time investment in Abyssea. Who cares if you kill the NM in 40s or in 1min? It's not gonna save you any noticeable amount of time, but instead may require another healer/supporter. Hence the uselessness of almost every job in Abyssea. In ToAU, more people equalled higher killspeed (where it actually mattered, when prolonged fights meant you would die easier), or easier fights. That's not the case in Abyssea, because more (and more diverse) jobs don't add to the overall group value.

Also, you don't need BLU, I never have a BLU in Abyssea, and rarely need MNK, and when I do I usually don't need NIN. Abyssea simply encourages small parties with certain jobs, you can trio almost everything in Abyssea very efficiently (including some Empyrean weapons) with WHM, BLM, WAR and possibly a THF for good measure.

[Babekeke]

What if they actually made just 1 change to salvage, einherjar and nyzul where you could proc mobs like in dyna, and if you did, you are guaranteed 1-2 alexandrite?
If you don't like to proc; don't. You can carry on the same way that you always did.
If you can clear the zone in 30 mins and would prefer to get extra alex; go for the procs!

Adding procs to allow you to get what you always could before is bad. Adding procs to allow you to get over and above what was available before, I'm all for it. Even if you don't care for the procs, you can make your way through the zone as you always did, and occasionally, you might get the procs by accident and get extra alex. Bonus.

[Gaiben]

I think the biggest thing is that these events are FINE THE WAY THEY ARE. The only thing that you really need to change is that they are a bit easy due to the level gap and the rewards are lacking in luster also due to the level gap. The easiest way to bring life back into them is adding more sections to them, not changing their core function. The very differences they have from the proc based newer content is why players will use other jobs here. As was mentioned a few times earlier, just add newer chambers, higher floors, newer mobs/bosses. Have the additions be a greater challenge with more of a reward. But some of these events I would still like to keep them the same.

Getting to floor 100 again but with some stupid tricks would just be stupid. Nyzual is still really fun, and getting that top floor for mythic weapon skill will not go away. Killing Odin for the title and Atma will still be a worthy cause. But I would be glad to have a new reason to jump back into those fun events. Also making mythics realistic would be nice.

[Spiritreaver]

This is true, I was actually thinking that a refinement to the proc'ing system would be in order. As it is right now, you're correct. None of the systems in place are perfect.

This may be a bit scatterbrained, but this is something I was thinking about in terms of improving the proc system as a whole.

Since SE is going to be revamping Nyzul Isle in the near future, I'd imagine Mythic WS's are once again going to be pretty commonplace (not that they were rare to begin with.)

They could make a sort of hybrid system between the Blue proc'ing in abyssea and VW's system.

General Rundown:
You have 2 different ways to proc with weapons, NQ weakness and HQ weakness. The NQ weakness would be a generic WS that most jobs have access too. HQ weakness would be Mythic WS's. Every job has one.

The difference between an NQ and HQ trigger would be the increase in drop rate on desirable loot. This loot still has a reasonable shot of dropping with just TH (which makes the entire system somewhat optional, but still gives incentives for trying to incorporate it into your playstyle/alliance make-up.) But the NQ trigger would increase drop rate significantly, and the HQ trigger would make it near guarenteed.

Keep the whole "time aspect" of blue procing from abyssea intact.
Weapon types that have no Mythic WS at all would be removed from the list entirely.

Example: Let's say... you have Polearm. NQ weakness would be something like Raiden thrust: DRG, SAM, PLD, WAR, etc. have access to. But to trigger the HQ weakness, you have to use the Mythic WS for that weapon type: Drakesbane, a DRG exclusive. This way, even if a DRG is not dealing as much damage as a SAM or WAR (purely hypothetical here...), he compensates by giving out better loot during Piercing time.

Other example: A weapon like Sword, which PLD/BLU/RDM have Mythic WS's for. All 3 would be able to proc HQ weakness. Guarenteed. This way, during Slashing time, if it happens to be sword, the RDM/PLD/BLU have it covered, all the while covering NQ weaknesses for other damage types when it's not Sword or Slashing time.

The way I see it, it means that every job during their specific time has a reason for being present at an event, but if people choose to just bring <insert top DD here> to their runs, those players aren't completely screwed. They can still do NQ procs with other weapon types during times where their HQ proc isn't a possible option.

It's entirely possible that I may be overlooking something that makes this entire idea stupid, this was more of a "top of my head" thing. Just a thought. Either way, it's late. And I'm gettin some sleep.

I like the ideas you are sharing here, but really they should not be added to Nyzul Isle imo.

Nyzul Isle is almost perfect as it is now. All it needs are

* additional uncapped floors that should be accessible only after you have a floor 100 runic key

* the pool of NMs that can appear should be expanded to include NMs added after ToAU

* list of purchasable gear/items that can be bought with tokens should be added

and most important

* unlink Nyzul Isle and Salvage. Make one or the other dependent on tags(and allow tags to refresh in a manner closer to Abyssean traverser stones) and the other based on a re-purchasable KI that sells from a NPC for like 1k like WoE.


That last one because really, after Abyssea, SE shouldn't try and dictate how often an event can be done. As you can literally stay in Abyssea indefinitely until you want to leave. People that want to do Nyzul Isle AND Salvage shouldn't have to pick one or the other anymore.


Again there really doesn't need to be a proc system in Nyzul Isle, my above suggestions would be easy to do and SE could call the event fixed and move on.

[Glamdring]

I like the ideas you are sharing here, but really they should not be added to Nyzul Isle imo.

Nyzul Isle is almost perfect as it is now. All it needs are

* additional uncapped floors that should be accessible only after you have a floor 100 runic key

* the pool of NMs that can appear should be expanded to include NMs added after ToAU

* list of purchasable gear/items that can be bought with tokens should be added

and most important

* unlink Nyzul Isle and Salvage. Make one or the other dependent on tags(and allow tags to refresh in a manner closer to Abyssean traverser stones) and the other based on a re-purchasable KI that sells from a NPC for like 1k like WoE.


That last one because really, after Abyssea, SE shouldn't try and dictate how often an event can be done. As you can literally stay in Abyssea indefinitely until you want to leave. People that want to do Nyzul Isle AND Salvage shouldn't have to pick one or the other anymore.


Again there really doesn't need to be a proc system in Nyzul Isle, my above suggestions would be easy to do and SE could call the event fixed and move on.

I can almost guarantee the entrance requirements will be changed. Every other event they've redone has had entrance requirements eased, positive these would too, especially if the idea is to make mythic easier to obtain.

Expanding NMs? only if you expand floors. Time limit, remember?

I have no issue with requiring Nyzul 100 beat before you enter salvage the 1st time, but otherwise I'm completely on board with you about unlinking them. Unlink the need to burn assault points too, hard enough to find a group doing assaults as it is.

Absolutely on board with adding "goodies" that can be purchased. The stuff that can be purchased now with assault points needs a revamp as well; the gear was decent (not uber, but decent) before the cap increase from 75 but it's irrelevant now, so we need some 90+ stuff.

1 idea, if they really want to increase interest in doing this stuff then making Salvage/Nyzul an alternative path to Voidwatch as a means of Empy upgrading 95>99 would be an option, and a welcome one to those of us who don't care for Voidwatch. Sorry haters, I like options. It's still the obvious place for mythic 95>99 of course.

[Glacont]

I can almost guarantee the entrance requirements will be changed. Every other event they've redone has had entrance requirements eased, positive these would too, especially if the idea is to make mythic easier to obtain.

Expanding NMs? only if you expand floors. Time limit, remember?

I have no issue with requiring Nyzul 100 beat before you enter salvage the 1st time, but otherwise I'm completely on board with you about unlinking them. Unlink the need to burn assault points too, hard enough to find a group doing assaults as it is.

Absolutely on board with adding "goodies" that can be purchased. The stuff that can be purchased now with assault points needs a revamp as well; the gear was decent (not uber, but decent) before the cap increase from 75 but it's irrelevant now, so we need some 90+ stuff.

1 idea, if they really want to increase interest in doing this stuff then making Salvage/Nyzul an alternative path to Voidwatch as a means of Empy upgrading 95>99 would be an option, and a welcome one to those of us who don't care for Voidwatch. Sorry haters, I like options. It's still the obvious place for mythic 95>99 of course.

100% My Vote.

[Glamdring]

Yes because we all remember there was absolutely no job favoritism back then >.>

only if you were too stupid to know how to build a party. A general party could use any combination of DDs, with or without a support role, tank was kind of restricted, but not always necessary, and there were multiple options with healers-which expanded drastically with the use of proper subs, and there were multiple pulling options as well. The new jobs expand the choices to fill those roles (dancer is a viable tank for instance), and increased cure power allows for more flexibility in party building. The gear choices have beefed most jobs to the point that outside Aby (where the new content is being added) their power is such that they can function easily in a standard party (again, beast is the exception, as they can only DD or pull), albeit in slightly different roles, and proper sub choice on the part of players can make up for the preceived deficiencies in other jobs. Example: red mage is fine as a healer outside dynamis if the pt has a dnc or at least 1 DD /dnc, or a Blue mage in it. Back-up ____ has always been a viable element in any build, it simply requires a little thought and planning when you build your party initially. In fact, standard partys were often a revolving door in many of the roles. Believe it or not the game can be successfully played in more ways than "haste the DDs and cure-bomb".

[Spiritreaver]

I can almost guarantee the entrance requirements will be changed. Every other event they've redone has had entrance requirements eased, positive these would too, especially if the idea is to make mythic easier to obtain.

Expanding NMs? only if you expand floors. Time limit, remember?

I have no issue with requiring Nyzul 100 beat before you enter salvage the 1st time, but otherwise I'm completely on board with you about unlinking them. Unlink the need to burn assault points too, hard enough to find a group doing assaults as it is.

Absolutely on board with adding "goodies" that can be purchased. The stuff that can be purchased now with assault points needs a revamp as well; the gear was decent (not uber, but decent) before the cap increase from 75 but it's irrelevant now, so we need some 90+ stuff.

1 idea, if they really want to increase interest in doing this stuff then making Salvage/Nyzul an alternative path to Voidwatch as a means of Empy upgrading 95>99 would be an option, and a welcome one to those of us who don't care for Voidwatch. Sorry haters, I like options. It's still the obvious place for mythic 95>99 of course.

Should have worded that better. I mean expand the pool from which the NMs are drawn from, not now many are loaded per floor.

EX-Chaneque drops Birdbanes, pretty nifty HTH weapon if you know you are gonna be fighting some weak to piercing mobs. As of right now, Chaneque will never pop in a Nyzul Isle run because it was added after ToAU.

All i'm suggesting with that point is to open up the system there so more different NMs have a chance to pop up during a run.

[Unleashhell]

Guys try to stay on topic. Lets not pick each other apart for past things like level 75 party setups and how we used to play. We don't play like that anymore and we need to move forward with what we would like to see in these new events.

[Leonlionheart]

Procs are horrible, and have been horrible since 80 cap.

It's just a sorry excuse of "balance" to include jobs that wouldn't have been included before (in the end in VW, the only jobs that get included that wouldn't be included otherwise are like BLU, SCH, RDM, DRK, and like DRG. PUP is still left out, even DRG, RDM, and SCH can be left out and still cap lights very easily.) It obviously doesn't work in Aby in terms of 'inclusion,' WAR NIN WHM BLM/BRD THF BLU or -------------->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>get out

[SpankWustler]

What if they actually made just 1 change to salvage, einherjar and nyzul where you could proc mobs like in dyna, and if you did, you are guaranteed 1-2 alexandrite?
If you don't like to proc; don't. You can carry on the same way that you always did.
If you can clear the zone in 30 mins and would prefer to get extra alex; go for the procs!

Adding procs to allow you to get what you always could before is bad. Adding procs to allow you to get over and above what was available before, I'm all for it. Even if you don't care for the procs, you can make your way through the zone as you always did, and occasionally, you might get the procs by accident and get extra alex. Bonus.

A "bonus" proc system like this would be peachy, but I just can't imagine sane "normal" drop rates and a proc system co-existing at this point. From the Development Bros' standpoint, I doubt such a rational option is an option.

[Helel]

Salvage and Nyzul aren't really linked anymore... You only need 500 assault points per permit which, even at the lowest assault rank, is about 1 tag per 2 runs. Basically you only have to do 1 assault every 2 days, which really isn't that bad at all. I have no problems with the entry requirements personally.

-Drop rate from gears needs to be drastically increased.
-Linen pouch 100% or near 100% from the boss.
-Coin pouches from NMs in Nyzul.
-More areas of Nyzul/Salvage/Einherjar
-Something purchasable with ichor that's actually worthwhile. This really bothers me now that I think about it... There's literally no use for ichor at the moment other than for a mythic. Upgrades for Odin specific gear would be cool.
-Probably leaving some stuff out.

[Kitkat]

God I hope they don't add anymore proc system events. I am so sick of drawing out fights to proc for drops (or in VWNM case a placebo effect) instead of getting onto the next fight. While in some of the events it makes sense to proc....in others you proc, cross your fingers, pray to whatever treasure gods, rub you local bald LS leaders head for luck, punt a taru, sacrifice a taru, and maybe toss a thf at it just to get synth materials.....well....wow...that was so worth it...

[Glacont]

God I hope they don't add anymore proc system events. I am so sick of drawing out fights to proc for drops (or in VWNM case a placebo effect) instead of getting onto the next fight. While in some of the events it makes sense to proc....in others you proc, cross your fingers, pray to whatever treasure gods, rub you local bald LS leaders head for luck, punt a taru, sacrifice a taru, and maybe toss a thf at it just to get synth materials.....well....wow...that was so worth it...

lol whose head, Kitkat?

[Jile]

((*agreed*)) Please, no more procs!

[Panthera]

I'll go one step further.

No more procing to any event, new or old.

[Vivivivi]

I like procs in Abyssea and Dynamis, but do NOT want more in these other places pleeeeeeeease. We have enough of them :)

[Zhronne]

I like procs, but they get annoying when they're used EVERYWHERE. Having a part of the content, even a good part, using slight variations of the Procs systems is alright, but we already achieved that with Abyssea + Dynamis + Voidwatch.

Please don't use it again for Salvage, Nyzul -100, Einherjar and Limbus!

[Leonlionheart]

If they add procs to salvage, all hope is lost.

[Camiie]

The thing I hate about procs is having to stand back and not be able to make use of the gear I've earned. I know some people don't want zergfests anymore, but I really want to be able to go all out and smash things into oblivion sometimes without worry over procs or lights.

Variety is the spice of life, right? If people like procs then don't do away with them, but it'd be nice to have new relevant events where we can just cut loose. Not without risk of dying, of course. We have to maintain some challenge. I just wonder what good all these powerful weapons, armors, spells, and abilities are if we have to constantly nerf ourselves to get anything done. Let us show them off and be rewarded for doing so.

[Glacont]

The thing I hate about procs is having to stand back and not be able to make use of the gear I've earned. I know some people don't want zergfests anymore, but I really want to be able to go all out and smash things into oblivion sometimes without worry over procs or lights.

Variety is the spice of life, right? If people like procs then don't do away with them, but it'd be nice to have new relevant events where we can just cut loose. Not without risk of dying, of course. We have to maintain some challenge. I just wonder what good all these powerful weapons, armors, spells, and abilities are if we have to constantly nerf ourselves to get anything done. Let us show them off and be rewarded for doing so.

We're on the same page.

[Leonlionheart]

The thing I hate about procs is having to stand back and not be able to make use of the gear I've earned. I know some people don't want zergfests anymore, but I really want to be able to go all out and smash things into oblivion sometimes without worry over procs or lights.

Variety is the spice of life, right? If people like procs then don't do away with them, but it'd be nice to have new relevant events where we can just cut loose. Not without risk of dying, of course. We have to maintain some challenge. I just wonder what good all these powerful weapons, armors, spells, and abilities are if we have to constantly nerf ourselves to get anything done. Let us show them off and be rewarded for doing so.

Preach it!

[Alhanelem]

Procs are horrible, and have been horrible since 80 cap.

It's just a sorry excuse of "balance" to include jobs that wouldn't have been included before (in the end in VW, the only jobs that get included that wouldn't be included otherwise are like BLU, SCH, RDM, DRK, and like DRG. PUP is still left out, even DRG, RDM, and SCH can be left out and still cap lights very easily.) It obviously doesn't work in Aby in terms of 'inclusion,' WAR NIN WHM BLM/BRD THF BLU or -------------->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>get out
Even if you wanted to include as many jobs as possible, you can't include them all, because there are 20 jobs and only 18 spots in an alliance. So guess which jobs would be left out even in the best case scenario? Probably PUP and either DRG or BST.

[Greatguardian]

Procs killed Dragoon, it's not anywhere near the same lol level as PUP or BST in group settings. Even including procs, the jobs you'd want to leave out are the ones that don't have unique weapon procs - BST and PUP. Pet procs are stupid for anything that isn't SMN.

Honestly not sure where the Drg hate is coming from. It's a solid DD, and it can easily keep up with the big 3 as long as their wyvern's alive. Throw in a Mythic and it's basically unstoppable.

[Alhanelem]

Honestly not sure where the Pup hate is coming from. It's a solid DD and it can easily keep up with the big 3 as long as their puppet's alive. Throw in an Empy and it's basically unstoppable.

[Greatguardian]

Oh you're funny. I'd like to see that PUP keeping up with the big 3 without a Mythic. The only reason the wyvern matters for Dragoon is for the later jumps, not because pet damage is worth a shit (hint: It's not, even on PUP).

[Unleashhell]

Heh 60 "Thumbs Up" on the OP and a bunch of posts that followed. Pretty awesome. Now just need some feedback >.>

[Alhanelem]

not because pet damage is worth a shit (hint: It's not, even on PUP). Then you're doing it wrong. Especially so following the coming update, which makes sharpshot considerably stronger due to the drastically improved drum magazine, which means more ranged attacks, faster TP, and more WS. PUP can keep up with DRG just fine. And I know, because have some pretty darn good DRG friends (whom don't get to use it as often as they'd like because they have some of the 17 other jobs that are more wanted). PUP BST and DRG aren't even likely to be the number one job due to SE's overly cautious nature with pet jobs, but I can assure you from personal and eyewitness experience that you're not giving any of these jobs enough credit. Oh, and no PUP in their right mind should be taking the mythic over Verethregana.

(Previous post was semi-poking fun, but you chose to press it further)

//Cue post about me being irrationally defensive, though GG is basically trolling

[Afania]

I call bullshit on that. The same arguement you made against procs could be used to counter your own ToAU job favoritism preference.

"You still have a reasonable chance of getting the KI after each kill, even if you don't proc. Or getting seals to drop without grellow. Sure it's not as efficient as bringing X,Y, and Z but that's ok."

Sound familiar?

You can't adopt a "well these jobs do good enough" attitude for ToAU content like nyzul isle then conveniently forget to apply that same mentallity for abyssea.



No it's not, because the efficency difference is way different than ToAU era.




In ToAU, it was SAM + RDM + COR onry. With abyssea's system, jobs like NIN, BLM, WHM, BLU, MNK, and WAR got a little more attention and actually saw some use. Last I checked, 6 is > 3.


Now see who's BSing

SAM+RDM+COR in ToAU? Wut? Are we playing the same game? You don't use BRD in merit pt? You don't bring MNK in salvage at 75? If your LS has a relic DRK or Mythic DRG you'd rather use Shinsoku SAM over Apoc DRK? Yes, SAM is bandwagon in ToAU era, but if you have a very pimp DD there are no reason not to use it and would rather use a naked SAM. However I'd rather use a naked WAR over Mythic DRG in Abyssea for KI farm in any way since no body cares about the pt killing speed and performance. Using differernt setup for Nyzul isn't half ass attitude, there are no reason to refuse a pimp DD to join the pt and go look for a bandwagon SAM. I see plenty of non-SAM DDs outparse bandwagon SAMs in ToAU and outperform them, how often do you see none NIN WAR jobs farming KI in Abyssea?

[Greatguardian]

Lumping DRG in with PUP and BST is so so so bad. I don't particularly care about how you and your friends perform. Anecdotal evidence really is the best evidence. Dragoon, however, currently holds the "Most powerful job in the game if given X, Y, Z gear" title. The biggie is Ryunohige, but it's no slouch without it. Kenkonken destroys Verethragna, too - the hell are you smoking?

Dragoon is a top-end DD who flops miserably in proc-land because they don't have crap for weapon access outside of lances.

PUP is a B-tier DD and pets will never, ever be competitive themselves until they're able to receive Haste/Song/Samba effects and all Corsair rolls. I wanted to inb4 "Pups are people too", but I guess you beat me too it. As I said earlier, the Wyvern being alive isn't important because of its own damage, it's important because it buffs Spirit/Soul jumps. That's the only important "Pet" portion of Dragoon.

Most importantly, I was looking more at Leon excluding Drg if procs were not an issue. I could care less what you think on the matter, considering all you're likely to do is huff around about how great pet jobs can be in the right hands and other such inane tripe. I don't like bad Wars any more than I like bad Pups. A good War is simply a hell of a lot better than a good Pup, and a good Drg is not very far behind a good War - a truly great Drg is miles ahead of the rest of the pack.

[Leonlionheart]

Oh you're funny. I'd like to see that PUP keeping up with the big 3 even with a Mythic. The only reason the wyvern matters for Dragoon is for the later jumps, not because pet damage is worth a shit (hint: It's not, even on PUP).

i think i ftfy

[Leonlionheart]

Most importantly, I was looking more at Leon excluding Drg if procs were not an issue.

tbh I leave out DRG because it has poor survivability. Very very hard to cap PDT w/o Mekira Meikogeki and Defending Ring. The job loses even more than WAR does, because of no Chersos Helm/Rvg. Cuisses +2.

Edit: Although you can heal yourself with your wyvern, it's too slow to be reliable. If you're WHM hasn't healed you by the point your wyvern is going to heal you, you're either not in danger or already dead.

[Greatguardian]

tbh I leave out DRG because it has poor survivability. Very very hard to cap PDT w/o Mekira Meikogeki and Defending Ring. The job loses even more than WAR does, because of no Chersos Helm/Rvg. Cuisses +2.

Edit: Although you can heal yourself with your wyvern, it's too slow to be reliable. If you're WHM hasn't healed you by the point your wyvern is going to heal you, you're either not in danger or already dead.

Fair enough. I certainly wouldn't be looking for a DRG to be tanking anything, or holding hate for any extended period of time if at all possible. One of the nice things about lances is that since they're even slower than GAs, you're unlikely to have a DRG holding hate in any pack of heavy DDs if only due to the fact that they hit less often than Mnks and other 2-handers (capped hate and all that).

I was thinking mainly as a damage dealer, first and foremost, where survivability is pretty much already taken care of by the big 3. If you want pure, unadulterated damage, Dragoon's up there pretty easily.

[Divinechild]

Depends on what you're trying to proc. BLM's got a hell of a lot more love after abyssea came out.

I think thats because of what they did to them in ToAU with colobri

[Leonlionheart]

I was thinking mainly as a damage dealer, first and foremost, where survivability is pretty much already taken care of by the big 3. If you want pure, unadulterated damage, Dragoon's up there pretty easily.

No doubt, and if it wasn't for every single relevant NM 1) doing 700~ AoEs and 2) dying in 3~7 minutes I'd say DRG would be a vital part of a party. Extremely high damage where you can shed hate in OSHI situations? Yes please.

[Alhanelem]

Lumping DRG in with PUP and BST is so so so bad. I don't particularly care about how you and your friends perform. Anecdotal evidence really is the best evidence.Except it's not sosososo bad, because it's true.


As I said earlier, the Wyvern being alive isn't important because of its own damage, it's important because it buffs Spirit/Soul jumps. That's the only important "Pet" portion of Dragoon. The pet is far more important to PUP and BST, and in both cases contributes far more than the wyvern does, and I'm considering the indirect benefit to jumps in that.


I could care less what you think on the matter, considering all you're likely to do is huff around about how great pet jobs can be in the right hands and other such inane tripe.Well, it's not "inane tripe," its real, reasonable statements, but I'll save you the trouble of having details to respond to since you'd likely just declare it more "inane tripe" no matter how much truth there is in it. All you do is talk about how bad these jobs are without backing it up, with the specific objective of getting me to do what you say I'm likely to do.

[Leonlionheart]

PUP all together sucks, get over it dude.
BST too, outside of being the god of solo.

[Alhanelem]

PUP all together sucks, get over it dude.
BST too, outside of being the god of solo.
Nice troll bait there bro

GG is more subtle, at least.

[Greatguardian]

Do you really not realize we're talking purely from a group-oriented standpoint where the only important factor for these jobs is the damage they're able to deal with buffs from other specialized players? Or are you honestly so jaded that you think PUP comes remotely close to MNK, WAR, or SAM in terms of raw damage?

[Arcon]

Or are you honestly so jaded that you think PUP comes remotely close to MNK, WAR, or SAM in terms of raw damage?

It actually did come close for a while, when they got 10 TP/tick Regain on Burattinaios. After that, they got demoted to sidelines entertainment again.

[Greatguardian]

It actually did come close for a while, when they got 10 TP/tick Regain on Burattinaios. After that, they got demoted to sidelines entertainment again.

Maybe without buffs or with magic haste onry, sure. The achilles' heel of pet jobs is and always will be their pet's inability to contribute meaningful damage in group situations (eg, ones with buffs)

[Leonlionheart]

PUP is fun, but that's all it is. No reason to have it other than for the lulz.

[Alhanelem]

PUP is fun, but that's all it is. No reason to have it other than for the lulz.
No, that's not all it is. If any job has defects, those defects should be repaired. If you feel that something can only be done "for the lulz" then there are problems that need fixing. No job deserves to be completely unwanted, otherwise there's no reason for it to exist in the first place. If it can't be fixed to where osmeone would want it for something, then it should just be removed. the fun value of a job is diminished if it can't be put to good use for anything.

Would you still be saying that if they nerfed the crap out of war and there was no longer any reason to play it except "for the lulz"?

Every job deserves to have something in the game for which it is a strength or asset to have. If you can't think of anything, than either the job needs to be adjusted or content needs to be added or adjusted for it to shine in. But you disagree, because as long as you can kick ass on WAR/MNK/SAM and have a white mage curing you, you don't care about anything else.

[Leonlionheart]

No, that's not all it is. If any job has defects, those defects should be repaired. If you feel that something can only be done "for the lulz" then there are problems that need fixing. No job deserves to be completely unwanted, otherwise there's no reason for it to exist in the first place.

Would you still be saying that if they nerfed the crap out of war and there was no longer any reason to play it except "for the lulz"?

Nope! because that would be all it is

even if the puppet is fixed, unless it gets march/haste samba/cor buffs, PUP will fall by the wayside (unless it's all of a sudden able to spam Cure V)

[Alhanelem]

even if the puppet is fixed, unless it gets march/haste samba/cor buffsThe same can be said for ANY job. this is about the dumbest thing I've ever seen you say. Proper support should always be given if available.

I can get march/haste samba/cor buffs anytime you can. Outside buffs are not part of a job and cannot be used to measure it.


(unless it's all of a sudden able to spam Cure V) It already does that. Cure VI, in fact (But with the update, it will not waste MP on cure VI when a lesser heal would be enough)

Edit: If you're referring to the puppet getting those buffs, it absoltuely does not require those things in order for the player to be able to compete. It is a minor flaw, but the master is capable of putting out enough damage to where the automaton's output gives the performance needed to close the gap.

Go ahead and work some math out in your head. PUP wouldn't just compete, it would decimate the competition if both master and automaton had maximum possible haste. SE doesn't do this because they know it would be overpowered.

[Leonlionheart]

POIDH (yes i did mean the puppet)

PUP is terribad. Face it. If the pet did get haste it would be slightly different, but still wouldn't be anything close to a competing DD.

I've parsed against great PUPs and am afraid to tell them the results because it's just onesided (DRG(contus/zelus/aresbody/dusk+1/4%bestia/aces) vs PUP(magianstr, 4/5 AF3+2, and Enkidu's feet) vs THF(pink) 54% vs 31% vs 9%) and that was on Chickcharney in Abyssea with full dominion buffs and everyone (other than lolthf) sporting RR/SS/Apoc. No marches or haste was given, other than Hasso on me, the DRG.

That was when my DRG was severely gimped too(only +1 legs out of all AF3)...

Don't tell me that Atmas push things in DRG's favor either, Stringing Pummel is affected heavily by RR and SS.

Edit: I included the pet damage into the totals

[Greatguardian]

I know why puppets don't get Haste. Doesn't mean that the lack of Haste isn't absolutely crippling to the job in any serious group setting. An unhasted puppet will never "close the gap" between PUP melee and MNK melee in a group setting, ever.

Throwing fully buffed PUPs and fully buffed MNKs at Qilin on Kine's spreadsheet, the MNK is doing 387 damage/second with Vereth 90, and the PUP is doing 253 damage/second with Vereth 90 - without pet and not using maneuvers, since those subtract from master damage. If you want to add pet's damage into the mix, I'll input that the PUP will use one maneuver every 20 seconds (that's reasonable, eh?), that drops their DPS down to 230.

When your puppet is able to do 160 damage/second to Qilin, let me know.

[Rukkirii]

After sending off your feedback, the dev. team let me know that not all content going forward will have a weakness system, so don’t worry!

Keep up the good work with voicing your feedback. ^_^

[Kitkat]

After sending off your feedback, the dev. team let me know that not all content going forward will have a weakness system, so don’t worry!

Keep up the good work with voicing your feedback. ^_^


Thank god...

[Elexia]

Well that sucks, I liked the stagger systems (since it also influenced drop rates, you know, that thing people complained about in a lot of XI's events?)

Ah well.

[hiko]

After sending off your feedback, the dev. team let me know that not all content going forward will have a weakness system, so don’t worry!

Keep up the good work with voicing your feedback. ^_^
read: some of the new content will still have a weakness system (just not all, can hope for VW only)


Well that sucks, I liked the stagger systems (since it also influenced drop rates, you know, that thing people complained about in a lot of XI's events?)

Ah well.
yes but when 75% of battle time is procing, most of people are only here to proc and nothing pop in coffer it just
sucks.

[Leonlionheart]

Well that sucks, I liked the stagger systems (since it also influenced drop rates, you know, that thing people complained about in a lot of XI's events?)

Ah well.

go die in a fire, etc

[Unleashhell]

After sending off your feedback, the dev. team let me know that not all content going forward will have a weakness system, so don’t worry!

Keep up the good work with voicing your feedback. ^_^

How about no more revamped content has triggers. I guess cept Voidwatch since it is already in place.

[FrankReynolds]

Blah people posted so fast.

[Camiie]

After sending off your feedback, the dev. team let me know that not all content going forward will have a weakness system, so don’t worry!

Keep up the good work with voicing your feedback. ^_^


Thanks much, Rukkirii! It's nice to know we'll have a little variety.

While you're in touch with the devs, replace that Moogle ball thingy with one off an Orobon and try to Hypnic Lamp some super secret info out of them on our future events and the systems they'll use! Also have them send all their gil to Camiie on Fenrir server! Thanks!

[Zeo]

After sending off your feedback, the dev. team let me know that not all content going forward will have a weakness system, so don’t worry!

Keep up the good work with voicing your feedback. ^_^

That's good to hear. I didn't mind it in abyssea but it got redundant after VW and dynamis.

[MarkovChain]

No more voidwatch ty.

[Babekeke]

Not all.... but some.

Edit: Bah failed to notice the extra page of posts since Rukkiri's, and Hiko beat me to it... by about 3 hours.

[MarkovChain]

tbh I leave out DRG because it has poor survivability. Very very hard to cap PDT w/o Mekira Meikogeki and Defending Ring.


Because 4% pdt matters. Dude It's 2011. Cure V skinned. Trying too hard to make gear that is mainly invo +1 and not worth the effort nor macroing nor filling your inventory.

[Juilan]

After sending off your feedback, the dev. team let me know that not all content going forward will have a weakness system, so don’t worry!

Keep up the good work with voicing your feedback. ^_^
Can we petition SE for a new Dev team if they do it in salvage?

[Asymptotic]

SE gives people a way to drastically increase payoff for a little bit of extra busy work, and people whine because they'd rather engage and watch netflix with autotarget on.

[hideka]

After sending off your feedback, the dev. team let me know that not all content going forward will have a weakness system, so don’t worry!

Keep up the good work with voicing your feedback. ^_^

procs werent that bad, but having procs on all new content would be .... annoying.

[Camiie]

SE gives people a way to drastically increase payoff for a little bit of extra busy work, and people whine because they'd rather engage and watch netflix with autotarget on.

Really? Who said that? Please do quote them.

[Dohati]

It actually did come close for a while, when they got 10 TP/tick Regain on Burattinaios. After that, they got demoted to sidelines entertainment again.

with 10TP regain, pup dmg was unreal... can't believe you only give it credit for "coming close". obviously, every pup you've ever seen is doing it wrong. that 1 weapon aside, pup can hold it's own no problem. ever since pup's h2h skill was upgraded a few ranks and SE started giving access to real melee gear, there hasn't been a problem (as far as dmg goes. mages' AI always needed serious fixing but that's on the way!)

[Vold]

Getting back on topic...

Procs in general have never been the issue. It's the requirement of procs that nobody likes. They should be a little more like TH in the sense it's no extra effort to get it on, and a lot less like "get the proc or else no realistic chance at drop" Abyssea had it right except for them being tied to game time which just turned it into a cookie cutter fest. Had it been truly random, with a bit higher drop rates on certain things, atmas and KI drops being drastically increased, and not such a drastic increase in drops when procs landed(0-1 seal vs 4), there would have been an awful lot less complaining going around because it would have been status quo with the occasional "woot we got some procs tonight for more drops" joy on the side.

Don't be so quick to dismiss the system in general. It is getting us more drops that otherwise we wouldn't be getting. But the use of them needs a serious overhaul from what they've become in VW and so far with Dynamis currency being nerfed and the proc requirement as the trade off for a once per day, open for all content.


So, to sum things up, refine procs to better serve the players. Weaknesses are a nice addition. They just need to be better implemented so we aren't spending more time than not standing around watching someone else play the game. As a matter of fact we need to be never standing around waiting for procs to land. So either untie them to drop rates and become more strategic for victory or make them super rare so no one has an excuse to ever waste one second disengaged with their backs turned. Either way enough with the narrow minded view on both the player and developer side that the only possible use for procs is to increase drop rates 100% of the time. Players don't want to be doomed to standing around waiting for procs to land and devs don't want to give away loot like it's candy. Find a middle ground so exploiting a monster's weakness for strategic purposes can remain part of the game because I'm so sorry but I didn't sign up for ZergXI.


TLDR: I said some stuff. Some more stuff. And some more stuff. And I wasn't talking to you. Go back to doing whatever it is you do in between not reading things and don't worry about it.

[FrankReynolds]

SE gives people a way to drastically increase payoff for a little bit of extra busy work, and people whine because they'd rather engage and watch netflix with autotarget on.

Nope, they just want to be able to occasionally do full damage instead of procs, and / or bring jobs that don't proc well.

[Arcon]

with 10TP regain, pup dmg was unreal... can't believe you only give it credit for "coming close". obviously, every pup you've ever seen is doing it wrong. that 1 weapon aside, pup can hold it's own no problem. ever since pup's h2h skill was upgraded a few ranks and SE started giving access to real melee gear, there hasn't been a problem (as far as dmg goes. mages' AI always needed serious fixing but that's on the way!)

NO U .

[Leonlionheart]

NO U .

Unfortunately PUPs don't seem to be able to provide real results through parses and maths, so this is about what all arguments with them will eventually amount to.

[Godofgods]

After sending off your feedback, the dev. team let me know that not all content going forward will have a weakness system, so don’t worry!

Keep up the good work with voicing your feedback. ^_^



Thank god...

You're welcome.

[Alhanelem]

Unfortunately PUPs don't seem to be able to provide real results through parses and maths, so this is about what all arguments with them will eventually amount to.
Well, you don't do that either, you even said you had parses but you didn't want to reveal them...

Even if I went out and tried to parse and provide you with real results, you'd throw them out because the people I have avialble to work with aren't as elite as you are and among the people I've worked with recently, so you'd just say "well I still wouldn't take them because your WAR wasn't a perfectly geared Ukon WAR" or something like that. Also, among my circle of friends, I'm the only one with DNC and also the only one with PUP, which creates a problem in providing haste samba.

Anyway. Your contention is that effectively, PUP gains less from haste than other jobs because the automaton isn't affected, making it less able to make up the performance gap left by the master's lower base stats (and as a secondary effect, PUP is slowed down more by job ability use than most jobs). I assume I'm reading that right. I don't fully agree, but I want to make sure we're on the same page.

Now, this may be a silly line of discussion, but I would like to see this situation analyzed:

Let's just say for a moment, that all haste of every kind was removed from the game (martial arts and DW delay reductions remain in place). Would this significantly alter what jobs rank where in terms of DPS? Does this bring PUP/SMN/BST into contention? Because effectively, the less haste there is, the stronger these jobs are. Or, flip it around: Let's just say that all of everyone has max haste and we add max haste to all pets. Are they now competitive?

[Unleashhell]

SE gives people a way to drastically increase payoff for a little bit of extra busy work, and people whine because they'd rather engage and watch netflix with autotarget on.

How is anyone whining? You think its fun waiting around for someone to proc yellow? People spend more time afk or watching TV waiting for procs then actually doing something productive and moving on to something else.

[FrankReynolds]

Without running the numbers, I would have to guess that while pup can be very competitive, The required skill becomes a much larger factor in a job as complex as pup. DD jobs like monk/war/sam are comparatively dummy-proof, making pup an unnecessary risk to bring to events, regardless of actual output. Basically, pup has a higher suck / kick-ass ratio due to the gearing / play style complexity, and the general oddball nature of the job.


EDIT: again though, I ran no numbers. This is just an educated guess.

[Greatguardian]

Well, you don't do that either, you even said you had parses but you didn't want to reveal them...

Anyway. Your contention is that effectively, PUP gains less from haste than other jobs because the automaton isn't affected, making it less able to make up the performance gap left by the master's lower base stats (and as a secondary effect, PUP is slowed down more by job ability use than most jobs). I assume I'm reading that right. I don't fully agree, but I want to make sure we're on the same page.


Throwing fully buffed PUPs and fully buffed MNKs at Qilin on Kine's spreadsheet, the MNK is doing 387 damage/second with Vereth 90, and the PUP is doing 253 damage/second with Vereth 90 - without pet and not using maneuvers, since those subtract from master damage. If you want to add pet's damage into the mix, I'll input that the PUP will use one maneuver every 20 seconds (that's reasonable, eh?), that drops their DPS down to 230.

When your puppet is able to do 160 damage/second to Qilin, let me know.


Now, this may be a silly line of discussion, but I would like to see this situation analyzed:

Let's just say for a moment, that all haste of every kind was removed from the game (martial arts and DW delay reductions remain in place). Would this significantly alter what jobs rank where in terms of DPS? Does this bring PUP/SMN/BST into contention? Or, flip it around: Let's just say that all of everyone has max haste and we add max haste to all pets. Are they now competitive?

Removing Haste increases the relative power of SAM and all 2-handers /SAM. Maxing Haste for pets increases the relative power of PUP and BST.

Who cares, though? That's a hypothetical, not where the game is now. Where the game is now, PUP sucks. There's some math. Go show me your puppet doing 160 damage/second to Qilin.

Edit:
Without running the numbers, I would have to guess that while pup can be very competitive, The required skill becomes a much larger factor in a job as complex as pup. DD jobs like monk/war/sam are comparatively dummy-proof, making pup an unnecessary risk to bring to events, regardless of actual output. Basically, pup has a higher suck / kick-ass ratio due to the gearing / play style complexity, and the general oddball nature of the job.


EDIT: again though, I ran no numbers. This is just an educated guess.

It's actually the opposite. Having to use multiple maneuvers and other JAs means a mandatory 120 delay where you're not doing anything every 20 seconds. The more complicated a PUP tries to play, the lower their personal damage output will be - and their personal damage output will always dwarf their puppet's damage output if they're in a group receiving buffs.

[Alhanelem]

Well I somewhat agree with your comments about keeping things simple; from a game play standpoint (and this is what makes PUP more enjoyable than a lot of jobs for me), PUP has a much higher skill ceiling (as you said). BST also, to a lesser degree (but I quit BST early on after trying it years ago because using charmed pets and not having the leave command made it frustrating :p)

I would (personally) rather play with the smart person who knows what he's doing than the guy who isn't so bright, but is playing an easy job so you wouldn't notice his suckage as easily. That's a good thing about PUP, not a weakness- it's doesn't take long to see if you're playing with someone who's mastered the job or if you're playing with someone with uh... not-so-much mastery.


Who cares, though? That's a hypothetical, not where the game is now. Where the game is now, PUP sucks. There's some math. Go show me your puppet doing 160 damage/second to Qilin.That's not math. Don't respond if you can't make a meaningful comment. And why are we talking about Qilin, out of all the monsters in the game, just out of curiosity?


It's actually the opposite. Having to use multiple maneuvers and other JAs means a mandatory 120 delay where you're not doing anything every 20 secondsIt's not "the opposite." this has zero effect on the hypothetical scenarios because PUP needs to do those things regardless of how much or little haste it or its pet has. In fact, in the case of the pet having maximum haste, the impact of JA delay would be reduced because it only slows down you, not the master- and on top of that, if you didn't need a wind attachment to achieve that maximum haste (let's just say you don't), you woudn't need to use as many maneuvers, dropping the impact further.

The point of these situations is to find where things can/need to be adjusted to bring these where they should be. offering no constructive discussion, saying "You suck/Pup sucks", and offering challenges doesn't in any way contribute to this admittedly off topic discussion.

[FrankReynolds]

It's actually the opposite. Having to use multiple maneuvers and other JAs means a mandatory 120 delay where you're not doing anything every 20 seconds. The more complicated a PUP tries to play, the lower their personal damage output will be - and their personal damage output will always dwarf their puppet's damage output if they're in a group receiving buffs.

HAH! Guess I was way off. Glad I stopped that job at level 8.


Well I somewhat agree with your comments about keeping things simple; from a game play standpoint (and this is what makes PUP more enjoyable than a lot of jobs for me), PUP has a much higher skill ceiling (as you said). BST also, to a lesser degree (but I quit BST early on after trying it years ago because using charmed pets and not having the leave command made it frustrating :p)

I would (personally) rather play with the smart person who knows what he's doing than the guy who isn't so bright, but is playing an easy job so you wouldn't notice his suckage as easily. That's a good thing about PUP, not a weakness- it's doesn't take long to see if you're playing with someone who's mastered the job or if you're playing with someone with uh... not-so-much mastery.


Sort of, but if they are both geared the same, I'm probably still gonna want the skilled guy to come on a more "reliable" job for things that matter. Of course on less difficult things he can do what he wants.


BLAH DOUBLE EDIT: on topic. let's just all agree that the proc system is well intended but still somewhat messed up, and not fit for a lot of events. Lets leave it out of these.

[Alhanelem]

Sort of, but if they are both geared the same, I'm probably still gonna want the skilled guy to come on a more "reliable" job for things that matter.if you already know the person's capabilities, then he can be just as reliable on whatever job.


HAH! Guess I was way off. Glad I stopped that job at level 8.You weren't way off. GG is the one way off here. JA delay addition is always there adding the same amount of delay at the same intervals regardless of how much or little haste there is. It has no effect on the scenario.

[Greatguardian]

That's not math. Don't respond if you can't make a meaningful comment.

Yes. I don't feel like using half a page to outline basic damage formulas for you. Is there something wrong with using Kinematic's spreadsheets for average DPS now? It's not like anything in there is a big mystery. They're just a big calculator.


And why are we talking about Qilin, out of all the monsters in the game, just out of curiosity?

This was about leaving PUP out of a Voidwatch alliance after all, because it just can't keep up with the big 3 in a group setting. Qilin's a mob we have fairly close approximate stats for, so I threw those in. Do you want all the nitty gritty details? I sure as hell don't mind.

Edit:

You weren't way off. GG is the one way off here. JA delay addition is always there adding the same amount of delay at the same intervals regardless of how much or little haste there is. It has no effect on the scenario.

This is patently incorrect. It has quite a large effect on the scenario. Take it apart:

Maneuvers take a set amount of time (120 delay) on a set interval.

As damage per unit time increases, the damage lost in each set amount of time grows. Wherein doing 100 DPS and losing 2 S means a loss of 200 damage, doing 500 DPS and losing 2 S means a loss of 1000 damage.

The relative detrimental effect of using maneuvers/JAs increases as your haste value increases. This is why every good Monk knows not to use Boost if they're 2hr'ing or have Marches.

[Alhanelem]

This was about leaving PUP out of a Voidwatch alliance after allWell, off on a tangent, you wouldn't have to worry about leaving any PUPs out of a voidwatch alliance, only because there is almost nothing of interest to the job in the event. In fact, the only job specific item I'm aware of off the top of my hand, the new animator, is inferior to the existing ones. There are a few other things, but must players of the job were pretty disappointed when they found this out.

//again, not important to the discussion, just an observation.


Yes. I don't feel like using half a page to outline basic damage formulas for you. Is there something wrong with using Kinematic's spreadsheets for average DPS now? It's not like anything in there is a big mystery.This doesn't really help me calculate the automaton's capability because we don't know all of the fTP, modifiers and characteristics of the automaton's weapon skills. This is aside from punching numbers into a spreadsheet is not a thoroughly accurate predictor of exactly how well you will perform in the actual game.

[Greatguardian]

not important to the discussion

Sums up pretty much all of your past half dozen posts in this thread, even in the context of the PUP discussion.

Player Skill? Irrelevant. The issue is job potential, not whether or not one player can be a great PUP and then a crapass WAR.

Non-Voidwatch/Lowman/Unbuffed scenarios? Irrelevant. No one made any claims about these.

Hypotheticals where puppets can cap Haste? Irrelevant. It's not real.

PUP in Alliance-scale events where players are getting buffs? Shit. No one's claiming anything more or anything less than that. And it's damn true.

[Leonlionheart]

You weren't way off. GG is the one way off here. JA delay addition is always there adding the same amount of delay at the same intervals regardless of how much or little haste there is. It has no effect on the scenario.

Like GG said if you use a Maneuver every 20 seconds, you take out 2 seconds of DPS from the ability delay. It has a huge effect on the scenario, since without Maneuvers your automaton sucks, and with them your DPS drops.

This is relevant on all jobs, particularly why I try to use Retaliation and Hasso at the same time if I'm forced to use them mid battle (3 seconds instead of 2), or why I use Meditate immediately after Ukko's (3 seconds instead of 2), or why THFs should be using SA and then WS 1 second afterwards (3 seconds instead of 2). Same with Boost, and the stacking of Focus/Impetus/Berserk/Aggressor (if you choose to do it that way).

Edit: Point is, you lose much more DPS from a 20s cd JA than from a 5~4:10 minute cd JA, and it just adds to PUP's awfulness.

[Alhanelem]

Player Skill? Irrelevant. The issue is job potential, not whether or not one player can be a great PUP and then a crapass WAR.Player skill is not irrelevant. You just massively discredited yourself. And where did I say anything about being a crapass WAR? I only said that player skill is more visible with some jobs (e.g. PUP) than others.

Like GG said if you use a Maneuver every 20 seconds, you take out 2 seconds of DPS from the ability delay. It has a huge effect on the scenario, since without Maneuvers your automaton sucks, and with them your DPS drops. No. It has zero effect, because that 2 seconds of DPS you take out occurs at all levels of haste from zero to maximum- Using abilities adds the same amount of delay and thus the same amount of time doing no damage no matter how fast your attack speed is. its effect on your DPS is constant. it doesn't vary with level of haste.


Edit: Point is, you lose much more DPS from a 20s cd JA than from a 5~4:10 minute cd JA, and it just adds to PUP's awfulness.PUP is not "awful," especially in everyday situations with non-elitists. It needs improvement, I don't disagree at all. but you have no purpose to use extreme adjectives except in an effort to infuriate me for your own entertainment.

[FrankReynolds]

No. It has zero effect, because that 2 seconds of DPS you take out occurs at all levels of haste from zero to maximum- Using abilities adds the same amount of delay and thus the same amount of time doing no damage no matter how fast your attack speed is. its effect on your DPS is constant. it doesn't vary with level of haste.

That is why its worse at higher haste. The faster you can hit, the more hits you miss during the 2 seconds.

[Alhanelem]

That is why its worse at higher haste. The faster you can hit, the more hits you miss during the 2 seconds.
I sir, am humbled by your wisdom and don't know why I failed to see that end of it.

I suppose this means that the no-haste situation is by far the most favorable one then.

The other parts of my last post stand, however.

[Greatguardian]

Player skill is not irrelevant. You just massively discredited yourself. And where did I say anything about being a crapass WAR? I only said that player skill is more visible with some jobs (e.g. PUP) than others.

Player skill is irrelevant because no one is making any claims about players (inb4 calling Analhelm overly defensive again). The only claims being made are about jobs. Not players. Jobs. Maximum potential, average performance, not some one-off challenge between individual people. People are a variable. They effect where a job's observed performance falls in relation to its expected performance. It does not change the job's expected or potential performance. A super great awesome tier PUP will never, ever break the world of math and do more than is mathematically possible for them to do on average.

If you don't have the ability to play any job but PUP or SMN at their maximum potential, that's your flaw and you can live with it. Some people actually do take the time to be the very best that they can be at every job they have. This is yet another reason why player skill is not a mathematically viable factor. A good player will be able to hit the maximum potential of their job no matter what job they're on. A bad player is just a bad player, and that doesn't change the fact that, if they're performing poorly, it's their own fault and not the fault of their job.


No. It has zero effect, because that 2 seconds of DPS you take out occurs at all levels of haste from zero to maximum. its effect on your DPS is constant. it doesn't vary with level of haste.

It removes a constant percentage of your damage (2.0 * D/S). It adds a static number to your damage (Pet attributes which are not changing based on Master haste). Therefore, the end result varies with total DPS (which varies with Haste).

Scenario: Adding a maneuver makes your Puppet do 500 more damage every usage

Formula becomes:

500 - 2(X) where X is your DPS.

Whenever X is greater than 250, you are losing overall damage by stopping and using Maneuvers instead of auto-attacking and WS'ing.

Edit: Christ, finally. At least it clicked.

[Alhanelem]

Player skill is irrelevantOnly irrelevant in the arguments about math. In real, live practice, player skill is not irrelevant, because different players have different skill levels and some people can and some people can't handle their jobs.


If you don't have the ability to play any job but PUP or SMN at their maximum potential, that's your flaw and you can live with it.I take every job I play fairly seriously. Not just PUP, or SMN, but every one I play. So no, it's not my flaw.

[Greatguardian]

In real, live practice not everyone who plays not-PUP is complete and utter shit at their jobs. Comparing great PUPs to mediocre WARs will always be disingenuous (That means Dishonest, by the way). Always.

If someone's best performing Voidwatch/Alliance job is PUP, then they're obviously someone who doesn't give half a damn about any of their other jobs - and thus not someone I want to work with at all.

[Alhanelem]

Comparing great PUPs to mediocre WARs will always be disingenuousYou're implying such a comparison was made where none was made.



If someone's best performing Voidwatch/Alliance job is PUP, then they're obviously someone who doesn't give half a damn about any of their other jobsThat's a massive load of cockadookie.

Just because someone doesn't want to play "the big three" doesn't meant hey give half a damn about their other jobs. People play a given job because they WANT to play it. They min-max a particular job because they like playing that job- but it doesn't mean they "don't give half a damn about any of their other jobs." Not everyone is as obsest with perfecting the maximum possible performance party setup as you are. It's not necessary to easily and handily beat any monster in the game. The level of performance you demand as a player is not a level of performance that is required to beat ANYTHING in the game.

You've denied it before, but you are sitll displaying a demand for an unnecessary level of perfection. Very few groups will ever have completely optimal setups for everything they do. But they will still be able to accomplish their goals. It might take a few seconds to minutes longer to win a fight, but 99.9% of the population is okay with that. If it was as important as you like to think it is, everybody would use the same setup for everything, and at least a good third of the jobs could be removed from the game with no impact.

[Greatguardian]

Again, bad assumptions. I didn't talk about the group, or what the person wanted to play, or anything like that.

I simply said: if the best job they have for Voidwatch is PUP, then their other jobs must be shit. Follow this for a moment.

First, the antecedent: If the Best job they have for Voidwatch is PUP.

Note, this says nothing about what they want to come, or what they come, or what they like.

If the best job they have for Voidwatch, that is highest performing Voidwatch job, is PUP: Okay.

Now, the conclusion: Then their other jobs must suck.

Pretty straightforward. With a good player at the wheel, a good WAR will destroy a good PUP in an alliance. If their WAR is not destroying their PUP, then their WAR is not good. Ergo, it sucks.

Edit: lol assumptions about how I run my linkshell. Right on, bro. I never said I wouldn't work with PUPs. I simply wouldn't work with someone who didn't give half a flying frap about any job but PUP, which is what it would take for PUP to be their best job for Voidwatch.

[Alhanelem]

Now, the conclusion: Then their other jobs must suck.This is a logically fallicious conclusion. baced on the antecedent. It's not even a complete argument. Your argument is:

A sucks.

If A is best, then B sucks.
Not a complete argument.

You've omitted your opinion about all other jobs being unequivocally superior for all reasons and situations;

What you really want to say is:

A= PUP. B= {The rest of the jobs.}
A sucks.

B doesn't.

Therefore, if A > subset of B reperesenting all available jobs to the player, then subset of B must suck more.

Which is nonsense, but at least it completes your argument


I simply wouldn't work with someone who didn't give half a flying frap about any job but PUP, which is what it would take for PUP to be their best job for Voidwatch.Contradicts the preceeding sentence in your post, because if you would work with PUPs, you wouldn't work with them because they wouldn't be the best job for Voidwatch. You seem oblivious to the idea that having perfect geared Ukon WARs and whatever other perfect stuff you need for your perfect setup for a voidwatch NM isn't required to play and win that content.

I'm not talking about your linkshell- I don't know a thing about it. I'm talking about your attitude in regards how you feel people should play the game.

WANTING to use PUP to do <whatever> does not in any way imply anything about the condition of their other jobs. To assume this is nothing but folly.

I (currently) have four other jobs that I actively work to advance on. I can be competent with any of them. Just because I care about PUP more, it doesn't mean that my other jobs are crap.

(in before "using any job other than the most maximally optimal one is hurting everyone around you", which is ridiculous when you remember that you're playing this game for purposes of entertainment, which is what games are supposed to be for)

[Leonlionheart]

PUP is not "awful," especially in everyday situations with non-elitists. It needs improvement, I don't disagree at all. but you have no purpose to use extreme adjectives except in an effort to infuriate me for your own entertainment.

I'm not elitist, I'll play with a PUP if that person wants to come PUP (outside of Abyssea, don't be stupid) and the rest of the party setup is good enough depending on the event.

Doesn't make it any less awful.

[Leonlionheart]

In real, live practice not everyone who plays not-PUP is complete and utter shit at their jobs. Comparing great PUPs to mediocre WARs will always be disingenuous (That means Dishonest, by the way). Always.

If someone's best performing Voidwatch/Alliance job is PUP, then they're obviously someone who doesn't give half a damn about any of their other jobs - and thus not someone I want to work with at all.

Quoted for epic truth

[Alhanelem]

Because quoting yourself and also posting twice in a row is cool.

It's also epic falsehood, not epic truth.

[Arcon]

Player skill is irrelevant in this discussion, because player skill is majorly relevant to someone's performance. Meaning, skill makes a good player. However, that means that jobs cannot be compared with player skill in mind, because player skill will always trump other factors. So, to reliably compare two jobs, you need to assume the same skill level for both jobs. You can either assume the worst, but then you'd have to define what the worst is, or you assume the best, meaning you compare the jobs' capabilities. This can be entirely defined by math, which is why it's used in these discussions. It also makes sense, because one can reasonably assume that players will always strive to do their best, instead of their worst, or deliberately trying to be average. So that's why player skill cannot be taken into account when comparing jobs, or you'll get meaningless results, because player skill will almost always trump a job's native capabilities in relevance, which makes it, for this discussion, irrelevant.

[SpankWustler]

It also makes sense, because one can reasonably assume that players will always strive to do their best, instead of their worst, or deliberately trying to be average. So that's why player skill cannot be taken into account when comparing jobs, or you'll get meaningless results, because player skill will almost always trump a job's native capabilities in relevance, which makes it, for this discussion, irrelevant.

I subscribe to a more negative and vaguely Hobbesian theory about player cognition, but arrive at the same conclusion.

The actions of most players are weird, dumb, and inexplicable. In fact, these actions are so weird, dumb, and inexplicable that no predictions or models can be made to account for the causes or effects of such actions.

Therefor, anyone attempting to make a prediction or model has no choice but to assume everyone does the most effective thing or at least a relatively effective thing.

[Greatguardian]

Because quoting yourself and also posting twice in a row is cool.

It's also epic falsehood, not epic truth.

He was quoting me. We just share the same superior character model so I can understand your confusion.

And nowhere in any of my posts have I talked about what people want to play. Merely what performs the best in an Alliance. Do you see the disconnect?

You seem to think I hate people who like PUP or something. You should see my friends. BLU main with Almace. PLD main with Almace. THF main with Mandau. PUP main with no Empy and we make fun of him all the time for it. The list goes on.

You see, I'm really an extremely nice guy and an extremely competent leader. I just ask one thing from my members, and that is that they give me their best no matter what job they're on. In turn, I give them my absolute best every single time. If a player enjoys PUP more, that's great for them and I always try to work with people's preferences when I have the option. But I have to keep the group's welfare in mind first and foremost, and if I ask them to come WAR and they consistently do less damage on their WAR than their own PUP, then it's obvious to me that they're not giving me their all when they aren't getting their way. That is one thing I will not work with.

[Alhanelem]

PUP main with no Empy and we make fun of him all the time for it. I wouldn't want to be that "friend." (I realize it's probably "Just messing" but that sort of thing gets on my nerves if it goes on for too long)


I just ask one thing from my members, and that is that they give me their best no matter what job they're on. In turn, I give them my absolute best every single time. If a player enjoys PUP more, that's great for them and I always try to work with people's preferences when I have the option.Seriously, that's good to hear, but nobody, and I mean nobody, could possibly gather that from any of your (or LL's, mostly LL's) posts on topics like this. You must be able to see how other people would perceive what you're saying as "I hate PUP, you can't use PUP, PUP is bad, go away." You and LL have very frequently posted with the same blunt, negative, arguably nonsconstructive nature every time this comes up. Which means that if you don't actually show that kind of disrespect to the job and its players in practice, then you and/or LL are posting that way purposely to troll me. In which case, I'd politely request to you that you stop trying to provoke me for entertainment purposes. I have an untamed passion for these jobs; you don't HAVE to exploit that and put me in "valiant defender" mode.


I ask them to come WAR and they consistently do less damage on their WAR than their own PUP, then it's obvious to me that they're not giving me their all when they aren't getting their way.I don't have a problem with expecting people to do their best. I do have a problem, however, with the automatic association between having a strong PUP apparently automatically meaning that they must not try to do their best on any other job. That's not the case for me, and very likely not the case for any truly serious player of the job (or whatever job is their favorite for that matter).

[Unleashhell]

Can you guys go talk on the PUP board thanks... >.>

[Greatguardian]

See, I told you you were being overly defensive about the job.

Nowhere have I ever insulted anyone for liking jobs. I'm glad they have something they enjoy. That does not, however, make PUP good in an alliance setting. It just does not.

Likewise, liking a job doesn't mandate being blind to the job's weaknesses. Sure, I like RDM a lot, but that doesn't mean I think it's super awesome at Voidwatch and a great mage to bring to everything right now. Straight up, it's not. RDM is in a really shitty place right now.



Yeah. PUP sucks. Does that mean you suck? Nah. Well, not on its own, though you're certainly good at grating on nerves when you read past what people are saying and inferring things that just aren't there - That has nothing to do with PUP, though. Does that mean anyone who likes or plays PUP sucks? Nah.

Could PUP not suck if X, Y, or Z happened? Sure. Does that have any bearing on whether or not PUP sucks in this context right now? Nah. No matter what we brainstorm here, PUP sucks. The focus of the discussion wasn't even on PUP to begin with, but rather Voidwatch. Therefore, it's not worth wasting everyone's time talking about how/why PUP sucks or being constructive about fixing PUP because all that matters in the context of Voidwatch is that PUP sucks and has no place there.



You seem to have problems differentiating between the job and the player behind it. As far as I'm concerned, these are two separate entities entirely and the flaws of one do not reflect flaws in the other. This is pretty much the crux of every single argument you've thrown us all into over all of your pet jobs for the past few months. You seem functionally incapable of not taking comments about PUP/SMN personally.

That can't be good for your blood pressure. Just chillax and realize that the best thing for you to do, if you like pet jobs, is to recognize that they really bloody suck and then work on figuring out ways to fix them rather than stuffing cotton in your ears and shouting "LA LA LA PUP IS FINE IF GOOD PLAYERS USE IT".

No. PUP's not fine. Denying it only makes the problem worse for all of them.

Edit: Don't look at me. We were originally talking about god damn Voidwatch :(

[Alhanelem]

You seem functionally incapable of not taking comments about PUP/SMN personally. I don't take them personally. and I'm not "funcitonally incapable." But your posts are often offensive (meaning "on the attack", not "inappropriate") and being that I disagree with some of your points, I feel the need to speak up. That doesn't mean that I'm thinking "an attack on PUP is an attack on me" - it means I'm thinking "This guy doesn't seem to understand the job too well if he really thinks it's as bad as he says it is."


No. PUP's not fine. Denying it only makes the problem worse for all of them.There's a difference between "not fine" and "terribad." It needs to be better than it is now, but that doesn't make it a "bad job." You need to be more direct and literal with your words if you wexpect me not to infer things you think I shouldn't.


"LA LA LA PUP IS FINE IF GOOD PLAYERS USE IT". I never said this, now who's inferring things they shouldn't? You were the one who said player skill was irrelevant (which you qualified more specifically after I posted about it, but you should have done that to begin with). You need to be specific from the beginning, and not just assume that I or anyone else are going to read every word of yours exactly the way you intended.

I don't think PUP doesn't have issues but you often make posts that seem to attack or deride players of the job and you don't explain what you think the problems are until I press you for it. In order for things to get fixed, we have to understand what the problems are and how those problems can be addressed. We can't just go "Oh, SE isn't going to do anything about it, so we may as well not talk about it."


Therefore, it's not worth wasting everyone's time talking about how/why PUP sucks or being constructive about fixing PUP because all that matters in the context of Voidwatch is that PUP sucks and has no place there.It is worth "wasting everyone's time" (It's not a waste) talking about PUP and being constructive about it, because if we don't then the problems will never be solved. As far as voidwatch, if PUP "sucks and has no place there" (which you'd be wrong by accounts of my friends having trouble capping lights because high quality triggers ended up being PUP WS) then in my opinion (I know you disagree) there is a problem that needs addressing.

[Greatguardian]

Unless every single proc ended up being Auto WS, any good shell would have no problem capping lights without a PUP. It's really not that hard, even without covering everything, especially when you can get 200% of one light from a single proc by interrupting a cast/action with an HQ proc.

[Alhanelem]

Unless every single proc ended up being Auto WS, any good shell would have no problem capping lights without a PUP. Well, that's basically what happened. It wouldn't necessarily kill you to have someone on standby for that purpose, no matter how useless you see the job being outside of that.

[Greatguardian]

I'd love to have the free party slots to waste on a standby character like that =/.

Doesn't matter post-update anyways, considering you can discern white proc and it auto-caps all lights.

[deces]

How the hell did this thread get hijacked by pup trolls?

[Glamdring]

After sending off your feedback, the dev. team let me know that not all content going forward will have a weakness system, so don’t worry!

Keep up the good work with voicing your feedback. ^_^

thank you, thank you SO much!


any chance of removing the stupid system from some of the places it is now?

[FrankReynolds]

debating what trolling is .... is trolling. Anyways..... The events named in the thread title are not good places for procs. Just make the drop rates better. 0/100+ on goliard boots. I am pretty pissed that I have to go try for them again now >.<. Please don't make matters worse by telling me I have to go blm/brd to every nyzul island run now. grrrrrr.........

[Glamdring]

Unless every single proc ended up being Auto WS, any good shell would have no problem capping lights without a PUP. It's really not that hard, even without covering everything, especially when you can get 200% of one light from a single proc by interrupting a cast/action with an HQ proc.

they added lights to Nyzul, limbus, Ein and salvage? I thought this was supposed to be about improving them, not wrecking them

[FrankReynolds]

they added lights to Nyzul, limbus, Ein and salvage? I thought this was supposed to be about improving them, not wrecking them

We don't know. They said "not all". They didn't say which though, so as things stand, They may end up in some of these events (which would suck). The point of the thread is to petition against it (and argue about pup). I am against procs in these events. Nyzul and Salvage are already limited in what jobs are desired for them and or party size. Procs would make it worse. Einherjar used to have semi hard bosses. I don't want to be trying to proc in a event with short time limit. I like that Einherjar was all out fast paced and over fast. Limbus, I could see putting it on the bosses maybe. Coin drops are plenty as it is though.

[deces]

I hate procs, I belive if one beats a mob that is called a win, not this do this and do that with a pop set or in an allowed amount of time and maybe you get what you weant. I dont have to fist**** a girl to get what I want so why should I need to do that for this game

[FrankReynolds]

I hate procs, I belive if one beats a mob that is called a win, not this do this and do that with a pop set or in an allowed amount of time and maybe you get what you weant. I dont have to fist**** a girl to get what I want so why should I need to do that for this game

I lol'ed. And then I agreed. They should make getting drops thief's job again. Staggers are cool, but getting loot is thief's bane. They keep saying they can't make thief better because it has lol treasure hunter, but they never go "hey black mage, we are gimping all your magic because you can make everything drop 200% better.".

Let's get back to letting people beat stuff up on whatever their best job is, instead of whatever job can proc.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

As the subject stats, renewel to these zones DO NOT NEED PROC SYSTEMS!!


These events should be able to be done everyday just like the revamp of dynamis.



Nyzul Isle and Einherjar should have Alexandrite and linen pouches available from those events.



New Chambers should be added to Einherjar with a new Einherjar specific Abjuration set as well as upgrades to existing Einherjar specific gear (Valhalla, Fork etc)



No single person treasure pools that can give an existing item a person already has.


Proc systems were fine in Abyssea, and we were forced to have them in the revamp of dynamis. Please do not force on us more proc systems in events that did not have them before.To bring back up the point of this entire thread as apposed to whatever peope are droning on about now, you do realize that all of these addition proc systems are because people complained about "not being usefull."(I.e. abyssea.) So they were added in responce. It was brought upon yourselves.

[FrankReynolds]

To bring back up the point of this entire thread as apposed to whatever peope are droning on about now, you do realize that all of these addition proc systems are because people complained about "not being usefull."(I.e. abyssea.) So they were added in responce. It was brought upon yourselves.

People asked to be made more useful by balancing the job abilities / strengths. No one ever said "hey! why don't you make a new gimmicky system that makes job performance irrelevant, and requires nothing more than simply being on a certain set of jobs to get the drop?!?".

SE came up with that crap on their own.

[SpankWustler]

People asked to be made more useful by balancing the job abilities / strengths. No one ever said "hey! why don't you make a new gimmicky system that makes job performance irrelevant, and requires nothing more than simply being on a certain set of jobs to get the drop?!?".

SE came up with that crap on their own.

The Development Bros. are basically a conglomerate of evil genies, when it comes to responding to player requests.

"I wish to never to have to walk five miles to work again."

"It is done."

"OH NO OH GOD OH GOD NO MY LEGS HAVE BEEN REPLACED BY DASCHHUNDS!"

"Well, now that I can't walk, can you at least make me able to fight Fafnir on my timer rather than Fafnir's."

"It is done."

"..."

"I hate you and my final wish is that a homeless man pees in your lamp. Good luck turning that one back on me."

[Unleashhell]

To bring back up the point of this entire thread as apposed to whatever peope are droning on about now, you do realize that all of these addition proc systems are because people complained about "not being usefull."(I.e. abyssea.) So they were added in responce. It was brought upon yourselves.

Whats sad is that it just made things the same way as any other event. WAR MNK WHM BLM NIN BLU pretty much cover everything in Abyssea. So idk where the balance ever came as far as making more jobs useful. With some luck we wont have to worry about any of that again.

[Khajit]

Whats sad is that it just made things the same way as any other event. WAR MNK WHM BLM NIN BLU pretty much cover everything in Abyssea. So idk where the balance ever came as far as making more jobs useful. With some luck we wont have to worry about any of that again.
Same as any other event? People were soloing, duoing and trioing HNMs for lulz before abyssea. At any given time there were only 2~3 useful jobs and 1 of them was only because of treasure hunter. The ridiculous proc/loot systems we got in voidwatch may be bad but you're absolutely deluded if you think the 6 jobs you listed being useful isn't an improvement over a grant total of 4 max.(the only reason it's even at 4 is because of treasure hunter and that was literally being done with mules by many)

[Unleashhell]

Same as any other event? People were soloing, duoing and trioing HNMs for lulz before abyssea. At any given time there were only 2~3 useful jobs and 1 of them was only because of treasure hunter. The ridiculous proc/loot systems we got in voidwatch may be bad but you're absolutely deluded if you think the 6 jobs you listed being useful isn't an improvement over a grant total of 4 max.(the only reason it's even at 4 is because of treasure hunter and that was literally being done with mules by many)

And people are soloing, duoing, trioing now, which is exactly my point. As someone posted they made the proc system so more jobs would be useful... well guess what it didn't happen. And idk how you think 6 jobs instead of 4 jobs being so useful is some grand improvement.

[Greatguardian]

People don't trio Voidwatch and expect drops.