Saboteur and Dia III

[Neisan_Quetz]

Figured it would be better to make a new thread than necropost.
In response to this:


And now for some education to those who think their really "mage" RDMs and doubt me in the slightest.

If your going to Saboteur an enfeeble, your wasting your time with Slow I/II / Para I/II. Instead use Dia III and I'll show you why I went 5/5 on it.

Dia III is -15% defense, defense like haste is the denominator of the formula. Thus a 15% reduce it 100/(100-15) = 17.6% attack boost. With body its 18% for 100/(100-18) = 21.9% attack boost. And on something ITG its 50% effect (60% with +2 gloves), some of them are 25% effect (30% with +2 gloves).

So Dia III could be 18.75 ~ 22.5 or 22.5 ~ 27 reduction in defense. 27% is a 36.9% boost to everyone's attack. A WAR with 650 attack would be hitting as though he had 889 attack.

Now for the kicker, it stacks with other forms of defense down. Namely a DRG's angon which is -20%. Combined with our Dia III you get 35% def down or 53.8% attack boost. And finially Angon + Sab Dia III (assuming NM is only 50%) ends up with 47% def down or 88.6% attack boost. A 650 attack WAR would be hitting as though he had 1225 attack. Basically every single DD auto-caps or nearly does the attack ratio on whatever NM your fighting, even the super high def turtle ones. Even the lowly RDM @527 attack would be hitting as though he had 993 attack.

Heck on regular monsters with a non-sab Dia III (18%) I'm looking at 527 * 1.219 = 642 effective attack.

Ahh the wonders of math.

Our single greatest debuff is Dia III, and its power is unresistable and completely unaffected by gear (except emp body). Thus a RDM/NIN with gear swap macros can "enfeeble" just as much as a RDM/WHM / RDM/SCH pink-mage can. We can refresh / haste the same as a backliner. The only thing that is worse is we lose the 10~22 from staff. EXCEPT they just made a Cure +10% sword that has really nice DPS. SE's giving us a hint.


Late reply I know, but using the Molting burst method of testing of having the enfeebles reflected back on you, I was unable to note any increased reduction of defense down from Saboteur'd Dia 3 with Emp+2 body/hands on. While /war and fighting Vetehenin in Aby-Tahrongi I melee'd it down to >25% HP then Sabo'd Dia3 and let itself beat on me until it used Molting Burst, reflecting the Dia III back at me. My defense after the dia was +25% -15% or approx +10% total, meaning either reflecting enfeebles are not perfectly reflected (odd), or Foldypaws' testing over a year ago here (http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/98430-new-job-abilities-traits-spells-and-adjustments-to-old-ones-thread!-9-8-10?p=4102268&viewfull=1#post4102268) was always correct. Can anyone confirm/deny this?

EDIT: Percentages were slightly off for not accounting for Dia III being applied to base defense, in which case the total reduction with Defender up came to -13%, applying to base defense is consistent with -15% defense from Dia III.

[saevel]

That method won't work, you need to do the /check method again. FP did his testing back when Sabo was first released before SE altered it (when it worked with Bio and was broke on grav). SE has since tinkered with it so we need to check again, I've noticed an increase in damage dealt but in all honestly nobody's gone out and did the /check's you'd need to do to nail it.

But yes, there is no such thing as "reflect" in FFXI.

[Neisan_Quetz]

If you put Penance effect on and it uses Motling Burst, you get the Penance effect transferred to you, I used 'reflect' out of pure laziness. In my case, I only used Dia 3, and after molting I obtained Dia effect and Vetehnin was no longer affected by it. I'll do more testing later using another sabo'd debuff (ended up dying from afking).

[saevel]

If you put Penance effect on and it uses Motling Burst, you get the Penance effect transferred to you so as far I'm concerned it's as close as you'll get for this game's system. In my case, I only used Dia 3, and after molting I obtained Dia effect and Vetehnin was no longer affected by it. I'll do more testing later using another sabo'd debuff (ended up dying from afking).

It will transfer all debuffs onto you, but whether special status's (Sab / MV) will effect them is the question. FP found out that sab originally effected the DoT on Dia which was pretty bad, but it also effected Bio and messed up Grav. SE then reworked it, including the NM resistance and all that annoyance. Since then I've noticed a jump in effectiveness vs annoying difficult NMs. But in all honestly the only way to find out would be to find a monster that /check are neutral or high defense then put on gear until it's low defense and calculate it's defense from there. Monster's don't have high defense (other then Kindred in Xarc) from what I've seen so chances are your going to be over their defense naturally.

Once you can get their exact defense number you can calculate what it should be under a 15%, 30% and inbetween. Then you have to hit it with Dia III and check to ensure it's that number, then hit it with sab Dia III and check to see if it went lower. Logically Sab should boost Dia the same way that Light shot boosts it.

[Neisan_Quetz]

If it's similar to L Shot affecting it I can probably wait for Byrth and Proth on that then. Actually, poison 2 should work just fine if it's just sabo affecting the transferred buff. I initially didn't have the Emp body working for it in Ballista, but ballista has weird rules so I discounted it.

[Crimson_Slasher]

Well what about a more favorable situation? Dunno if it would work but i was thinking, Player A (Pld, full buffs), Target B (Mob with charm at 5% hp) and Player C (RDM +2 body/hands.) Pld charmed, rdm sab dia III's pld, and either then kills (or a Player D does it) the nm/mob and pld checks def vs natural def with said buffs. Dunno since its still a player but may work different than ballista.

[saevel]

If it's similar to L Shot affecting it I can probably wait for Byrth and Proth on that then. Actually, poison 2 should work just fine if it's just sabo affecting the transferred buff. I initially didn't have the Emp body working for it in Ballista, but ballista has weird rules so I discounted it.

Sab makes Poison II into 20hp/tick so it does effect DoT spells. Thing is Dia has both a DoT and a -Def component, L.Shot effects the -Def so Sab should also. But this is SE, originally they had Banish coded to use INT, they could of screwed up anything.

[Hayward]

Just out of curiosity, how does Bio III play out with Saboteur as far as knocking down Attack and DoT?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Just out of curiosity, how does Bio III play out with Saboteur as far as knocking down Attack and DoT?

It doesn't. Saboteur only enhances Enfeebling Magic, Bio III isn't included as it isn't Enfeebling Magic.

[ManaKing]

Saevel, I will ask you point blank. You believe Saboteur actually works with Dia 3 and that you get more out of it by 5/5 because it makes the duration long enough on the spell to last until you need to Saboteur again?

I go with 5/5 Phallanx; 1/5 Slow, Blind, Par 2; and 2/5 Bio 3. I use Bio 3 in Dynamis to pull TEs. That is honestly why I have it instead of Dia 3.

I can pull them and throw Poison 2 at the same time. If I have to run away to get clear of surrounding mobs, the TEs are 1/2 dead by the time they waddle over to me.

[saevel]

Saevel, I will ask you point blank. You believe Saboteur actually works with Dia 3 and that you get more out of it by 5/5 because it makes the duration long enough on the spell to last until you need to Saboteur again?

I go with 5/5 Phallanx; 1/5 Slow, Blind, Par 2; and 2/5 Bio 3. I use Bio 3 in Dynamis to pull TEs. That is honestly why I have it instead of Dia 3.

I can pull them and throw Poison 2 at the same time. If I have to run away to get clear of surrounding mobs, the TEs are 1/2 dead by the time they waddle over to me.

Hmm I made a post and it vanished.

I currently do believe that Sab boost Dia III's base effusiveness due to how light shot works and my own observation of a damage jump on higher defense targets. This is of course subject to change should someone retest FP's original tests. I prefer 5/5 Dia III because out of all our merited enfeebles it's the strongest and most potent.

I'm currently
5/5 Dia III
2/5 Slow II
1/5 Para II
1/5 Blind II
1/5 Bio III

The last two I have for VWNM procs. I have 1/5 in Para II because currently anything that would remotely be considered difficult is immune to its effects. I'm 2/5 in Slow II because while it's not very potent and scales horribly, its still better then Slow and not many things are immune to it. I don't even both with Phalanx II because without full merits it's useless, and even with full merits its mostly useless on anything difficult. This is due to it scaling at 25 points per 1 damage mitigation vs Phalanx 1's 10 until 28 then 29 after.

Now onto Dia III and why it destroys every other enfeeble in the game. Defense down is handled as a subtraction of a percentage of a monsters defense. This is exactly how haste works, subtraction of a percentage of your delay. Because this effect is on the target, anything that does attack/defense calculations will get this effect, including Blue Magic spells, Pets and every alliance member.

Dia III is -15% defense, because attack and defense are part of the same fraction, they become interchangeable. 100/85 = 1.1764, or 17.64% boost to the top number. Thus a 17.64% boost to attack could be wrote as 117.64/100 = 1.1764. In short 15% defense down is +17.64% attack up to every alliance member, every pet, and on all Blue Magic spells. 17.64% attack is a very significant chunk of attack. At 600 attack you would receive 600 * 0.1764 = 105.84, so +105 attack. I'd be hitting as though I had 705 attack. Someone with 750 attack would get 750 * 0.1764 = 132.3, or +132 attack, they'd be hitting as though they had 882 attack.

So now you can see, +17.64% attack to every single alliance member, every WAR, every DRG, every PLD, THF, SAM, RNG, BLU, Summon, and yes even myself the RDM. It's only down side is that it's only applicable to that one monster, only people hitting that monster would get the bonus. Anyone who doesn't have at least two merits in Dia III (because spamming it every 30s is going to get old fast) is doing a great disservice not only to themselves but to whomever they play with.

And while there is an argument for Dia II, it's only 10% or 11.11% attack bonus. It's also negated by our Bio II spamming BLM and DRK friends. Dia III won't be negated by those spells. Over the course of a fight that 6.53% attack difference adds up into a pretty big number.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Could you not just use PvP to test if it works, or is it gimped there?

[saevel]

Could you not just use PvP to test if it works, or is it gimped there?

Things work differently in PVP vs PVE, would be a good place to see but ultimately need to do the defense /check method to be positive. I'd say use the demons in xarc, they have ridiculously high defense, something like 500~600. Way higher then any other regular monster I've seen, and higher then pretty much every non-turtle NM I've seen.

[Economizer]

Over the course of a fight that 6.53% attack difference adds up into a pretty big number.

The question is, if the 6.53% difference adds up, then wouldn't it be best to sub /DNC and do Box Step for the additional ~5-13% defense down over /NIN (in situations where you are solo, or are the only person who can Box Step)?

[Hayward]

Point taken. I stand corrected. Bio just had to be classified as Dark Magic. I guess that brings up the question of why Dia wasn't classified as Divine Magic.

[Economizer]

why Dia wasn't classified as Divine Magic.

Used to be, was reclassified back when Red Mage was retooled as an enfeebler. This is part of the reason Red Mage has native Divine Magic skill but no Divine Magic.

[saevel]

The question is, if the 6.53% difference adds up, then wouldn't it be best to sub /DNC and do Box Step for the additional ~5-13% defense down over /NIN (in situations where you are solo, or are the only person who can Box Step)?

Yep, this is a very valid setup. Earlier I mentioned RDM/DNC for when you need melee capable but with more party support options. You will take an overall damage hit from both lack of DW3 and spending time using JA's, but overall it's a very good sub, especially if your using haste samba.

[Greatguardian]

Things work differently in PVP vs PVE, would be a good place to see but ultimately need to do the defense /check method to be positive. I'd say use the demons in xarc, they have ridiculously high defense, something like 500~600. Way higher then any other regular monster I've seen, and higher then pretty much every non-turtle NM I've seen.

It would be nice if you could go out and do this, seeing as you're the one claiming that all pertinent testing on the subject is wrong based on eyeballing and "common sense" (lol applying sense to SE).

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Things work differently in PVP vs PVE, would be a good place to see but ultimately need to do the defense /check method to be positive. I'd say use the demons in xarc, they have ridiculously high defense, something like 500~600. Way higher then any other regular monster I've seen, and higher then pretty much every non-turtle NM I've seen.

Bleh, tried this method, if I tried H2H it was always High Defense obviously due to no skill, but using a /BLM with a staff I then received low regardless of whether Dia III was on.

Do you mean Xarcabard (S), Dynamis or just Normal.

[saevel]

Bleh, tried this method, if I tried H2H it was always High Defense obviously due to no skill, but using a /BLM with a staff I then received low regardless of whether Dia III was on.

Do you mean Xarcabard (S), Dynamis or just Normal.

Inside Dynamis Xarc, the newer Demons they sprinkled around have ridiculous defense.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Inside Dynamis Xarc, the newer Demons they sprinkled around have ridiculous defense.

Okay then, I'll try it out if the group I'm with decide not to do anything today.

[Greatguardian]

Wait, why are you using a mob with crazy Defense? Especially with RDM. You realize the /check method requires you to get your attack within 125% of the monster's defense at different levels in order to be remotely effective, right? How the hell are you going to ride that much attack on Red Mage without throwing %-based food into the mix (and thus making testing a lot harder than it needs to be)?

Find something with a Defense parameter roughly equal to your base Attack (with some weapon, doesn't even need to be sword yo) and just adjust your attack with gear/weapons until you nail their defense before/after/afterSabo. Better yet, just use something whose defense values are common knowledge <_<

Edit: Because nothing pisses me off more than bad testing parameters, here's what I'm going to try (keeping in mind I may not be able to due to sheer lack of Attack gear on me that works on RDM. Screw buying gear for this nonsense)

Step 1: Go to Greater Colibri camp in Bhaf

Step 2: Pull a random Colibri and sleep it

Step 3: Set your Attack to 323-326. If the monster has Low Defense, it is level 81. If it does not, it is level 82.

Step 4 (for level 81): Set your Attack to 342.

Step 5: Cast Dia 3 without Saboteur and use Bind/Grav/Break/Utsu/I don't even care to not die. Ensure that the monster does NOT check as Low Defense. Its expected Defense after Dia 3 is 273.

273 * 1.25 = 343, threshold for Low Defense

Step 6: Wait for Dia to wear off

Step 7: Cast Dia 3 with Saboteur. If it still does not check as Low Defense, then Saboteur does not affect the Defense Down effect of Dia 3.

Done.

Edit 2: Apparently I can actually do this if I use Defender, so I'll head to Bhaf now. Christ. Getting my attack that low is hard work. Believe it or not, I have sword merits /shocked.

[Greatguardian]

Update: Confirmed.

Dia 3 potency is NOT affected by Saboteur. Will edit in pictures when I'm done uploading them

Pictures:

http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/gallery/383e25594ce323a3b35b7d2ebc166bc8.jpg

http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/gallery/2e08a9a08a466b32b59b07ee2f8cf1dc.jpg

http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/gallery/8822071e8cb086162f08f3d0774f0994.jpg

Edit: Well, the forums are resizing them. Right-click View Image to see them in their proper size.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Update: Confirmed.

Dia 3 potency is NOT affected by Saboteur. Will edit in pictures when I'm done uploading them

Good to know.

[Kitkat]

So, with this, other than duration of the effect the only potency this spell gains from sabo is the DoT or not even? If it doesn't effect potency, in the effect of dot or effect, then better to just recast it when it wears and use sabo with something else.

[Greatguardian]

I'm busy in Voidwatch right now, but if someone wants to go test the DoT portion on level 0 mobs it's pretty easy.

[saevel]

Edit 2: Apparently I can actually do this if I use Defender, so I'll head to Bhaf now. Christ. Getting my attack that low is hard work. Believe it or not, I have sword merits /shocked.

That was why I was suggesting a higher defense monster. Now at 95 it's damn hard to get a low attack without using stave's, and then its too low. Didn't think about using defender though, good idea.

And good find, now we know SE hasn't fixed Sab Dia III. Should report as bug or feature request?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

That was why I was suggesting a higher defense monster. Now at 95 it's damn hard to get a low attack without using stave's, and then its too low. Didn't think about using defender though, good idea.

And good find, now we know SE hasn't fixed Sab Dia III. Should report as bug or feature request?

Doh! I didn't think of Defender either.

A bug I'd assume. It is Enfeebling after all, SE has no reason for this not to work under Saboteur.

[Ophannus]

Maybe it enhances duration or the dot?

[Greatguardian]

It does affect duration normally. I have not bothered to check the DoT, but like I said, anyone can walk to SarutaBaruta and use it on a Tiny Mandragora (they have 25 HP) and see if Sabo affects the DoT at all. If that doesn't work (due to initial damage being too high), it's probably going to be extremely difficult to test. Regardless, it's not really that important since the DoT on Dia spells is practically nonexistant. Doubling it won't really do much.

[ManaKing]

That was why I was suggesting a higher defense monster. Now at 95 it's damn hard to get a low attack without using stave's, and then its too low. Didn't think about using defender though, good idea.

And good find, now we know SE hasn't fixed Sab Dia III. Should report as bug or feature request?

Both. If they don't think this is a bug, then request that they make our JAs not lackluster and function the way the people that actually play the job would want it. No reason that Saboteur shouldn't do something significant for every enfeebling magic at this point, though it blatantly doesn't. It should be extending the effect and the duration of what is significant about the enfeeble.

No one uses Dia III as a DoT, that is what Saboteur-ing Poison II is blatantly for (Seriously SE? No Poison III yet?). The effect that should be modified is the defense down on Dia III because that is what Dia is used for. Bottom line, fix RDM already SE, it's broke as a joke and the joke stopped being funny years ago.

[saevel]

There

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/17645-RDM-Job-ability-Saboteur-and-Dia-III?p=235044#post235044

Bug report filed. Lets see how long till they try to side step it.