Seriously devs - the balance

[Xellith]

I honestly don't see why almost 90% of every thread that asks for adjustments get a reply back (if a reply at all) basically saying "OH if we did that we would have to make something else about it harder".

I really don't see why most things HAVE to have something detrimental added to them when we ask for something to be fixed.

One of the main things I don't think the dev team understands or maybe we are just dumb on is that when we ask for these adjustments - we are asking for them because currently they could be made better or are currently stupid. Sure some people ask for some dumb things around here - but that doesn't mean that every idea has to have a negative added onto it.

Like we asked for popped HNMs or something to ease the spawn conditions. The dev team trolled us with a 99 kindred seal requirement. That was pretty unnecessary.

Then you get stuff like WOE. We ask for better drop rates and we are told that increasing the drops for some items would lower others when you can easily just stop the random garbage drops like ores and logs from being in the loot pool in the first place.

You get stuff like einherjar - many people expressed the view that they wanted to buy abjurations with ichor. Even if the prices were high. Yet you pretty much flipped us the bird.

Then you get stuff like voidwatch. Almost everyone thinks the battle system rocks our sox off. Yet the dev team always feels the need to give ruin something SOMEHOW - with voidwatch we get the annoying STUPID drop system and yes most everyone agrees its really retarded.

I just don't see why things that the playerbase see as something that should have been a certain way in the first place pretty much requires a harsh detrimental ball and chain attached to it.

It's 4:33 in the AM. My rant is over.... till later >.>

[OgreBattle]

Because FFXI is made with the Everquest 90's western MMO mentality.

I'm pretty sure the makers of this game have never played a Final Fantasy game before lol...

[Muras]

I feel the devs often don't make the "fun" factor a part of their designs. But no matter how fun an event itself can be, it losses it's charm when you don't make progress at a steady pace. This is why Abyssea was more or less successful. It gave players goals that were actually possible to complete within a reasonable time frame.

From what I understand, the reasoning behind stupid low drop rates is that people will complete their goals and run out of things to do, thus quitting out of boredom. This logic is terribly flawed, because most normal people don't play all day long every day, forever. Only a very small few do this, and I don't care if they become better geared because they have more time to play than me. Good for them. You also need to remember that they want to USE their new found shinies and show them off. Can't do that if you quit.

Yoshi-P of FF14 at least understands this as he once said that he wants those few players to be examples to those who play less, so they can see what they're playing and working for. That's why having low drop rates and daily limits on events (Dynamis, Salvage, Assault) are retarded.

As someone who studies game design, I'd like to send a message to the devs as follows. Some of you might've heard this saying before. When you cook food for others, you need to take into account the tastes of those you're cooking for. They might not like the same things you do, so you change and alter your recipe to suit their tastes.

Game design is a lot like cooking. You're creating a work of art for others, and you need to take into account what they like. They might not like the designs you yourself like, so you change your design to suit their tastes. This is good game design, and a pretty good business practice to boot.

Your players have voiced their opinions on the bad loot system for Voidwatch. They've told you Scarlet Delirium sucks. They've told you Walk of Echoes is painfully depressing when it comes to drops. They've been saying for years that 30,000 Alexandrites for a mythic is ridiculous. They've told you 1500 heavy metal plates is unreasonable. The list really just goes on.

They also told you that lowering SCH's helix spells to be subbable was retarded too. Why did you add the test server if you aren't going to listen to our opinions? That whole helix thing was flat out rejected by virtually everyone. On the subject of the test server, I thought it was supposed to increase the rate of version updates. I know I read SE saying it somewhere. But so far the updates are just as far apart as ever. Also, can we get a real roadmap? Knowing when the test server gets content is great and all, but doesn't really do nobody any good when we don't know when the REAL game gets said content.


I'm pretty sure the makers of this game have never played a Final Fantasy game before lol...

Funny enough, a lot of the people involved with FF11 were involved in many other popular games. In particular, Hiromichi Tanaka was the producer for Chrono Cross/Xenogears, game designer for FF1-3, Director for Seiken Densetsu 3 (Secret of Mana 2). They make some classic single player RPGs, but their MMO design is a little questionable in 2011.

[Alhanelem]

Because FFXI is made with the Everquest 90's western MMO mentality.

I'm pretty sure the makers of this game have never played a Final Fantasy game before lol...
I wouldn't go that far with how ridiculously easy leveling up is these days. no corpse runs or perma losing gear when you cant get to your corpse.

[Rie]

I know a few people who quit when the last Abyssea expansion came out, because they felt all the gear they had worked for previously was outdated by the new +2 gear and sets.

They didn't want the best gear to be so easily obtainable by 'casual' players, whereas the old way of Einherjar/HNM dropped all the more exclusive gear that not everyone was able to get by joining a random shout group.

I see the point in some of the obstructions/limits, I also see the positives of changes, and lifting of restrictions.

Dynamis - Judging by the sheer amount of new relics on the server, and currency prices rising, Dynamis has become one of the best ways to make gil easily, and relics aren't out of reach for anyone not in a linkshell with scheduled, regular runs. I'd say that the way Dynamis is now, the 'old way' of doing Dynamis (smashface everything, as fast as possible) is pretty inefficient with the new proc system. It's been redesigned to suit lowmanning or soloing, you can search any of the Dynamis zones now and there's almost always someone there, usually a BST/DNC, DNC/THF or BLU's soloing the MA proc mobs. Major changes, but more popular than ever (seems to me to be anyway, would be neat to get a census from SE on participation numbers before and after changes), due to not needing an organized group.

Walk of Echoes - Yes, the current system is pretty dumb, however, it is far better than how it used to be. Speaking as someone who was in one of two groups able to clear confluxes when WoE was first introduced, leeches were a major issue, and would cause a lot of aggrevation and ruined runs due to them not wishing to listen to our instructions, but rather run off and grab as many mobs as possible. They would die repeatedly, somehow qualify to lot (probably through taking dmg?), and walk off with things they didn't work for, that they would never have had a shot at if our group hadn't done all the work.

The new system gives you a lot of dumb crap, and along with it comes a lot of dumb people doing dumb things, but the re-opening time for confluxes has been shortened, the time limit has been extended, and you ARE guaranteed 5 items, crappy or not, for participating. The introduction of Primeval Brew temp items has also made the chance of success with a lower number of participants a lot higher, if someone ends up getting one.

I think they listened to a lot of our complaints about WoE and did what they saw fit to accomodate our wishes, although they didn't quite get the whole "NO MORE LOGS, NO MORE ORES, PLEASE PLEASE OH GOD PLEASE" idea quite right. Their changes has eliminated the leeches, and made it easier for people to want to work together to achieve a common goal, clearing the conflux, despite not actually knowing each other. In the old system, fights would often break out in /sh about leeches and how people felt about them. It's more peaceful and not as frustrating anymore, outside of the damn synth items. I prefer the new way over having to pray that any leech lots low, I now know that as long as we clear the conflux, everyone gets something. I guess we can only hope that they'll remove some of the most useless synthesis items. Sorry for long sentences and rambling etc!

Voidwatch - The loot system is pretty dumb, and I know a lot of people think it's completely unfair when "he got that item, but this is the first time he's done VW with us, THIS SUCKS". I think there should be an option to add certain items to the treasure pool, but only if you already have the same item in your possession. This would discourage leaders from 'forcing' people to add their loot to the treasure pool if they didn't want to, and ensuring items didn't go to waste, which is the current issue with, for instance, Fajin Boots. Lots of people want them, and of course people are going to be annoyed when a person without the jobs on it gets them, when they have 0 use for them. This could be SE's way of forcing everyone to level every job of course!

HNM changes were retarded, that's pretty much all there is to it. If they had just left the NQ to spawn as normal, with a small chance to drop the HQ pop item, while at the same time introducing the KS99 changes, I think it would have been a lot more reasonable. As it is, it can be very hard to get a Black Belt if you're not extremely lucky and/or have a lot of friends with orbs and no need for BB items. I can understand SE wanting people to stop sitting in Dragon's Aery for 3-4hrs a day, but it could have been done in a better way.

I think they realized that some of the changes were a mistake, because they added in the option to convert seals and crests into KS/KC/HKC or whatever you needed. KC/HKC are so much easier to obtain than KS, so it works out about the same KS gain rate once you've converted them. It still sucks having to rely solely on KS99's for BB items, whether it be from NQ -> HQ pops or the actual drop from the KS99.

Anyway, I apologise for the wall of text, I tend to go on once I get started.

tl;dr: Some changes suck, some have made things better, please remove synth mats from WoE, they're all crappy!

[Hashmalum]

This. A thousand times this. I am so sick of this. When we ask for something and they say they will take something else away to maintain "balance" when what they don't get is that it was never balanced in the first place and that is what we were complaining about. We point out flaws and they don't listen--they either didn't hear us, or think we're wrong but won't say why. They tell us that something can't or shouldn't be done without telling us why. I don't expect (or want) the dev team to do everything we say but there does need to be a better dialogue, a reasoned back-and-forth process that leads to mutual understanding.

[Alhanelem]

When we say we want everything to be faster and easier, the reason they say no is they want you to play longer. Part of the problem though, is because they're somewhat limited in their ability to add completely new content, that they need to make sure the content they do have lasts long enough that you will continue to subscribe X more months. It's a business thing, really.

Perhaps, though, they don't realize that they could make more content instead of longer content and keep the subscribers just as long if not longer.

Even with how fast they've made the leveling, this is still one of the "slowest" MMOs out there.

[Tohihroyu]

The answer is simple.

You are not Japanese. Therefore you wont get answers.

[Malamasala]

I just wish they'd grant the wishes of the wisher and not random people.

Like I know CORs asked for a way to keep their own rolls while rolling other rolls on others... and then BRD gets the ability. I don't think I've ever heard a BRD complain they had to swap out their ballad for march.

Another classic I know of personally is asking for a minimum of 5 min support buff duration on wards... and then COR comes along with 5 min duration rolls.

Sometimes I've played with the idea of making threads like "Please give DRK an ability to attack faster with a staff" and see if it accidentally ends up on SMN instead. Or stuff like "lower the recast of chakra" and see if waltz timers get cut short.

[Sparthos]

When we say we want everything to be faster and easier, the reason they say no is they want you to play longer. Part of the problem though, is because they're somewhat limited in their ability to add completely new content, that they need to make sure the content they do have lasts long enough that you will continue to subscribe X more months. It's a business thing, really.

Perhaps, though, they don't realize that they could make more content instead of longer content and keep the subscribers just as long if not longer.

Even with how fast they've made the leveling, this is still one of the "slowest" MMOs out there.

Business is no excuse as point systems could be added with large enough requirements to keep people on the wheel till the next version update. This boils down to the devs wanting to do it their way, ideas of the players be damned.

Heavy Metal Plates being redeemable with "voidwatch points" would take the ores and logs out of every run and actually get some reasonable amount of people doing the content especially with the prospect of 99 around the corner. What do we get instead?

A completely random grind hated by 99% of individuals for the sake of "balance". Is it really that insane to make something like the rare VW drops something you can get within 50+ repeats of a certain NM? The idea of knowing you're going to get something rather than spitting into the wind every time makes all the difference.

This same system could have been expanded to WoE but instead we get more logs and ores courtesy of the devs.

[Hayward]

They didn't want the best gear to be so easily obtainable by 'casual' players, whereas the old way of Einherjar/HNM dropped all the more exclusive gear that not everyone was able to get by joining a random shout group.

This pretty much sums up the "hardcore" players' definition of balance and it is simply mind-numbing why S-E insists on catering to these folks' every whim (see: any Empyrean weapon trial) after they wailed and gnashed their teeth after Visions and Scars were released. Heaven help us all if someone who doesn't have a clique of yes-men and behind-kissers wants to have a set of armor that doesn't require waiting years for imaginary points to build up (provided the linkshell remains intact).

The armor Magian trials, while a bit too biased toward having to fight NMs for my liking on certain jobs, certainly was something S-E got as close to right as they possibly could. I sincerely hope that Empyrean Armor +1 and +2 sets do remain a viable choice for people who don't care for the obscene drop rates of Voidwatch, if only to instill something foreign to the so-called hardcore players: humility.

[Dreamin]

Rie: I agreed with you just about on everything except that you're wrong, leeches are still there, just now they have no impact directly on your loot pool via a better "random lot". See all those lolDD's who just engaged->die->raise -> repeat in flux 9 or 11 or even 7 (7 trends to go too fast to get them enough points but 9 and 11 works prefectly fine). I know some who has done enough on many runs where some has picked up scrolls which others are getting our favorite items: "Logs and Ores". [From my tracking on several ppl that I know who done WoE regularly, scroll appears to always only drop if your point total is within 6-9k range, any higher or lower you wont get scrolls. At least I dont know anyone personally who has gotten one of the rare scroll drop when they're outside that range. Now, my sample is small, 3 for myself (2 comet and 1 thunder 5) and 6 other scrolls total from others that I know.

But yeah, overall, I think everyone here are all on the same boat here. We're all tired of SE's way on forcing things on us and would not listen or acknowledge when there are problems and we are their paying customers. Sad ways to handle business. I know some people who are so sick of these logs and ores now that they're not even playing as often as they used to. Wake up SE before you wake up one day and find out all your loyal customers have left you.

[Varlan]

The goal for any game should be to get as many people as possible to see content. Putting crazy barriers up so that everyone can't enjoy what they've done is crazy at best. They always seem to be thinking about the hardest of hardcore players. Who the hell cares if other people have the same gear? I see more people running around in their set stuff than anything else. The more barriers of entry they make the harder it becomes for people to actually do the content they're trying to use to keep people playing in the first place.

I just don't understand the developers for this game. Sometimes I think they either don't play their game, or really don't understand anything about making games. Maybe they just hate their players.

[OgreBattle]

The strange thing is that Final Fantasy isn't really a hardcore RPG either. My comment before was joking, but it was mostly about how XI does very little to give a FF pacing.

When I was restarting and punching rabbits in Ronfaure, a friend came by and asked. "Is this actually an FF game?"
"Yeah, it's XI"
"Then why are you punching rodents" One at a time too. Two rabbits and I might die.

Every other FF title starts you off fighting goblins, ahirman, soldiers, and then a giant robot scorpion wanders in.


That's my main criticism with XI. It's not "Final Fantasy as an MMO" as it is "Warped Japanese perspective on trying to make a 90's western MMO's"
Sort of like how the Final Fantasy: Spirits Within was a Warped Japanese Attempt at making a Hollywood movie.

The grind of the game has been greatly alleviated since though, but still FF staples like "enter dungeon->fight multiple enemies at once->fight boss" aren't the intended way of play. I love fighting through for Ghelsba, but there's no gameplay benefits for doing that over grinding a tome.

I have hopes for XIV 2.0 to fix this, but then that dev just talks about how he's got experience with a bunch of wRPGs... I just want to play an FF title y'know?

[Catsby]

Guild Wars 2

[Dazusu]

Like we asked for popped HNMs or something to ease the spawn conditions. The dev team trolled us with a 99 kindred seal requirement. That was pretty unnecessary.

I thought that was genius. I thought it would teach people to stop crying for easymode on absolutely everything. I thought wrong.

[Hayward]

I thought that was genius. I thought it would teach people to stop crying for easymode on absolutely everything. I thought wrong.

OK, this quote cannot go unanswered. "Easy Mode", my behind. Contrary to the mindless talking points your kind repeat like sheep, no one wanted the Black Belt handed to us on a silver platter. We simply wanted realistic access to the quest items needed. No more of this waiting for 1 spawn every 24 hours only to see some clown with a bot program claim it so he can charge ridiculous amounts of gil for the item. What S-E did in response was simply absurd and had no logical basis at all except for those who watch far too many karate movies and believe every player should climb Mount Everest, swim across the Atlantic, and run across the Sahara in order to get a small chance at these quest items.

I make no apologies for calling on S-E to make these quests and trials a lot more realistic. Abyssea killed off HNM linkshells and the politics that made them infamous. I am in no hurry to see them revived.

[OgreBattle]

Guild Wars 2
I've played Guild Wars 1 and it's basically an MMO overlayed over the format of a Japanese RPG. Story and quests drive you forward through the wilderness and dungeons, completing a quest brings you to a new area to get more quests, that kind of FF pacing.

Square-Enix is entirely capable of making an online game like Guild Wars, it's just taking from what they already do offline. Look at the new Final Fantasy Type-0, it uses a combat system derived from Crisis Core (the furthest evolution of FF's ATB system) and has ad-hoc multiplayer.
(It's also on the PSP and likely to never come out in English...)

I'm enjoying XI, I really love the lore and look of the world, but I enjoy other S-E title's gameplay even more. All of XI's flaws are carried over from copying western MMO design, they don't exist in Square-Enix's offline titles.

[Concerned4FFxi]

If the content is so hard why is that, since empyreans have been released theres what? 20,000 level 85 empyrean weapons or something? Check the last census, it was crazy. Empyrean weapons have already outpaced relics and mythics combined for total numbers owned. So yea, while I agree some things can change, balance is important. 3-5 man team will get you any empyrean weapon in the game. I personally dual box many of the easier ones. Grab a friend or two, set dates and times, and go work for what you want.

I don't have an e-body but would love one, that's why I'm intereested in doing einherjar. But to just give out this gear or vw drops to everyone thats wants it is not really rewarding at all. Theres many content now that is very easy to do and low manable, what is the point of me working towards it if I can just go buy it with points? I understand the whole ls point system bs, but theres got to be another way of doing it then just having it available for purchase that is no fun at all. Wheres the excitement of killing odin and the rare drop and winning a lot or something? If anything, the game has changed to serve the majority of player base which is the casual player.

As it stands right now there is NO ENDGAME. But I still play, I'm doing the grind thing too, and getting stuff out the way that I can do now, while leveling jobs and getting gear that I have access to and am waiting to see the new endgame. All the content is getting redone, and it makes total sense to do so. Not everyone has abyssea and at 99 why wouldn't older content be made somewhat useful again?

As for VW i agree the drops are bad, perhaps upping the amount of single heavy metal plates to the loot pool instead of ores and logs would do something for VW. By increasing singles, it still preserves the balance of making a 95 empyrean insanely hard to get, but also rewards everyone doing the run by at least getting something decent for their 3-4hours of time that was invested in said event/shout. I have yet to see a plate, and the only rare/ex i got was a mask off the sandy t4 months again, which I muled. I've do jueno t3's alot and havent recieved anything but logs and ores.

As for the 3 kings being KS99, I like the idea floating in this thread where the nq is a a time spawned HNM and has the same drop rate for the hq pop as the ksnm99. Personally, I'd probably not camp it but it should be available to those who want to do so.

As for WOE, the spells where said to not be that easy to get, I seen a Dev response. And it makes sense, that not all your 91+ spells would NOT be hand outs or easily attainable. I like seeing a blm that's not me casting comet/thunder V/blizzaja and me saying to myself, that <bastard sword>. I have none of the 91+ spells for blm or whm, and you know what? I'm fine with that, I bought a Saevus Pendant when it was dirt cheap, and a wizzan strap as well. Now that the prices went up, I'll have to wait on replacing my witch stone. You know why? I still do insane damage with blizzard V/Fire V/thunder IV and there magian staves. It will be very rewarding to me once I have all spelss again, but that's a day in the future that I'm looking forward to and working towards. I dont have to have everything right now.

[Kaizersan]

Yea I am sure everyone here has noticed that most of the dev responses we get are just copy and paste translations from JP asked question so really unless you can write japanese and post in the JP section your calls fall on deaf ears.

[Alhanelem]

No, they're not copy and past translations. They're professional translations made by people who understand the language. It's not like they use google trasnlate or something. And they have on a number of occasions, specifically forwarded questions we've made, not just ones that were asked on the jp forum.

[FrankReynolds]

No, they're not copy and past translations. They're professional translations made by people who understand the language. It's not like they use google trasnlate or something. And they have on a number of occasions, specifically forwarded questions we've made, not just ones that were asked on the jp forum.

yeah, once in a while they post a translation of a response to a JP question, and someone in the english forum goes "Hey, did you mean X...?" and the translator comes back a day later with "yes". other than that, I can read all the responses that we get the day before in the JP forums, because they are all direct responses to JP questions. It's actually pretty comedic how they just post the responses in any thread that is even remotely connected on the english side even if it completely derails the original topic..

[Kaizersan]

No, they're not copy and past translations. They're professional translations made by people who understand the language. It's not like they use google trasnlate or something. And they have on a number of occasions, specifically forwarded questions we've made, not just ones that were asked on the jp forum.

The fact remains that 99% of the posted answers come from JP asked questions and answers the questions answered for us generally get vauge responses.

[Babekeke]

No, they're not copy and past translations. They're professional translations made by people who understand the language. It's not like they use google trasnlate or something. And they have on a number of occasions, specifically forwarded questions we've made, not just ones that were asked on the jp forum.

The translators do indeed forward our questions and responses to polls etc. The dev team however, appears to promptly ignore them.

[Greatguardian]

This pretty much sums up the "hardcore" players' definition of balance and it is simply mind-numbing why S-E insists on catering to these folks' every whim (see: any Empyrean weapon trial) after they wailed and gnashed their teeth after Visions and Scars were released. Heaven help us all if someone who doesn't have a clique of yes-men and behind-kissers wants to have a set of armor that doesn't require waiting years for imaginary points to build up (provided the linkshell remains intact).

The armor Magian trials, while a bit too biased toward having to fight NMs for my liking on certain jobs, certainly was something S-E got as close to right as they possibly could. I sincerely hope that Empyrean Armor +1 and +2 sets do remain a viable choice for people who don't care for the obscene drop rates of Voidwatch, if only to instill something foreign to the so-called hardcore players: humility.

SE? Listening to or catering to Hardcore players?

http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/entries/icons/original/000/004/815/lol-guy.jpg?1294768022

The grass is always greener, bro. I think the mad is truly strong with this one. Maybe if you got over yourself for all of 5 minutes you'd realize just how casual-friendly all of the new content is. Probably not, though.

[Molech]

Lol SE doesn't know the first thing about "Balance" thats why I just bust out laughing uncontrollably everytime I see the dev's or community reps use that dreaded word.

Game is about to be 10 years old in japan this may and they still don't know what to do with the jobs as many are still terrible, they still don't take feedback properly(Hi2U bst jug pet debacle). People loved the Abyssea model but heres more tiers of Voidwatch.

[uptempo]

People like that mug Hayward make me sick just because you don't like hnms doesn't mean they shouldn't be in the game for god sake man no one would make you do them. There is no reason not to add new hnms nothing forces anyone to do them all they need to do is make there drops available in some other event like they did back at 75 with einherjar then both sets of people are happy.

I swear people like you make me so sick just because you didn't approve of them means they must be banished for good.

[Buffy]

I really enjoyed Abyssea. Some people will say that is because that was the game in easy mode, and perhaps they are right. However, I played every day for the year or so from when abyssea got rolling (2nd expansion bringing about AF3), tri-boxing and wishing for more. I helped with many empy weapons and countless +2.

Voidwatch is evil. The drop rates and methods of obtaining gear are unkind to put it mildly. This is a return to old-school dynamis, just under the name of something different. Dynamis was originally a linkshell based, alliance worthy event, where drop rates were horrible, everyone got trolled with bst gloves x4, and the common drop (currency) was in such high demand that the event was repeated over and over out of need well past anyone's desire for armor.

How many people talk about doing Dynamis-Xarcbard for 3 months trying to get thief gloves? (Before the multiple dynamis revamps of the last couple years) This is what we have returned to with voidwatch. It is a linkshell-based (although more shout friendly then dynamis was imo), alliance level event where your gear drops are random and the common drop (heavy metal plates) is in high demand for someone's weapon (or shield, or horn, etc).

The lack of progress is de-motivating to me. I've cancelled 2 of my 3 accounts, and don't enjoy voidwatch because there is no way to make (well, feel like you are making) progress. On a bad night in abyssea, you walk out with some KI and can try again. On an average night you walk out with some full pop sets ready to go or you are 3/6 on some hand +2 that you are working on.

The progress is palpable and measurable.

The lack of perceptable progress (with the exception of upgrading your abyssite) is frustrating. I don't mind doing 100 x nm to get someone (or myself) a piece of gear (Hello Sobek). I mind doing 100 x NM and not knowing if you're going to be done.

This is my single greatest frustration with FFXI's direction and the way the devs handle the game. I would very much like the cure potency/cure casting time body piece that comes from voidwatch (the Rare/EX one). However, based on what I've seen so far, I have a better chance of stabbing myself in the heart with a steak knife and living then I do of obtaining that item within a reasonable (100?) number of runs.

What is so wrong with an ichor-like concept that is exchangeable for a specific item. Earn 1000 itchy-cruor per fight of one specific NM. If you fight Akvan 100 times without receiving the item you want and have 100,000 itchy-cruor, I can exchange it for the cure potency body I want.

Why is this bad?

Just let me feel like I'm making progress, that's all I want. The despair (far too strong a word, but the right sentiment) of seeing crap in your treasure chest dozens of times in a row is infuriating.

[Camiie]

What is so wrong with an ichor-like concept that is exchangeable for a specific item. Earn 1000 itchy-cruor per fight of one specific NM. If you fight Akvan 100 times without receiving the item you want and have 100,000 itchy-cruor, I can exchange it for the cure potency body I want.

Why is this bad?

Just let me feel like I'm making progress, that's all I want. The despair (far too strong a word, but the right sentiment) of seeing crap in your treasure chest dozens of times in a row is infuriating.


Some people would be against it, because earning gear through anything other than completely random and low low low drop rates is somehow akin to having relics/mythics mailed to your Mog House when you first start the game. To them, earning gear over time through a points system isn't earning it at all. It makes gear too accessible to the commoners, of which such gear should be out of reach. It would somehow mean everyone would be done with everything in a week, even if the points system made that impossible, and everyone would quit.

They're wrong, of course... and idiots... but that's pretty much why.

[Sargent]

Here's to hoping they don't apply the same low drop rate chest rubbish to The Last Stand.

*cough* yea right.

[Crysten]

Some people would be against it, because earning gear through anything other than completely random and low low low drop rates is somehow akin to having relics/mythics mailed to your Mog House when you first start the game. To them, earning gear over time through a points system isn't earning it at all. It makes gear too accessible to the commoners, of which such gear should be out of reach. It would somehow mean everyone would be done with everything in a week, even if the points system made that impossible, and everyone would quit.

They're wrong, of course... and idiots... but that's pretty much why.

That's pretty much what's left of the HNM stigma, yeah.

What is so wrong with having the prospect of progression in a game like this? To use your analogy, low, low drop rates are akin to winning a Mog Bonanza every time you log into the game.

Voidwatch drops, and to an extent Walk of Echoes, are a game of chance, nothing more. I could do Voidwrought 200 times and be in the exact same position as when I started - no closer to any of my goals and practically tearing my hair out. I've been through this enough in old FFXI and I got a harsh taste of reality when I went to do my Black Belt post HNM revamp. I'll tell you now, after over 3000 Kindred Seals, 8 Wyrms, 8 Fafnirs, 21 Chlevniks, 21 Behemoths, 1 King Behemoth, 4 Adamantoises and 1 Aspid, my reaction to finally finishing was not one of joy, but one of "THANK GOD THAT'S OVER." Each time I killed one of the NMs, my heart sank just that little bit more and I very nearly quit the game by the end of it all. I look back at my Black Belt not with fond memories, but as one hell of a lot of wasted time.

In comparison, my Empyreans and my Relic were much less painful as I was making progress little by little, day by day. I could see how far I was getting and this gave the motivation I needed to keep going, despite the events being boring as hell. I will tell you now that if I had to kill Voidwrought, Qilin or whatever other VWNM 200 times to guarantee me the drop I wanted, you could sign me up rght now. Einherjar's Ichor system and to a lesser extent, Assault Points, were some of the best ideas SE had to make gear more accessible and it's sad they didn't take advantage of it more.

While people say people would quit if they got things too fast, the opposite holds true just as much - you cockblock people enough and there's a point they say "No more" and simply walk away out of frustration. Voidwatch is a perfect example of this, especially with the element of cocktease you get when that fulltime WHM that doesn't have a DD job gets that rare body piece!

I think people overreact when they say "stop asking for easy mode, you noobs!" We're not asking for a silver platter - we're asking for a realistic reward in regards to time invested. That would give me no end of reason to keep playing the game now and into the future. You keep cockblocking people with artificial and unfair roadblocks, and they're gone.

EDIT:: I completely misread the post - I'm actually totally agreeing with you. Herpderp. xD

[Greatguardian]

Most HNM-tier players I know loved the Einherjar/Assault drop system and hate the Voidwatch drop system. I doubt any of us would be upset if they instituted a point-based system for this stuff. Some may just ask that the point requirements for awesome gear be really high, so that it actually takes work to get it rather than just seeing everyone walking around in it after a month.

[Crysten]

I'm not against a compromise in that regard and would be completely for the idea of rare drops taking a while to obtain via points means.

The further away we get from the butthurt entitlement issues some fragments of the HNM/Relic community still have though, the better.

[uptempo]

I love hnms and i hope at 99 they add some new world spawns, they could add there drops to some event like how they did back at 75 with einherjar to keep everyone happy.

[uptempo]

I'm not against a compromise in that regard and would be completely for the idea of rare drops taking a while to obtain via points means.

The further away we get from the butthurt entitlement issues some fragments of the HNM/Relic community still have though, the better.

You're the one coming across as butthurt in your posts to be honest.

[Crysten]

You're the one coming across as butthurt in your posts to be honest.


People like that mug Hayward make me sick just because you don't like hnms doesn't mean they shouldn't be in the game for god sake man no one would make you do them. There is no reason not to add new hnms nothing forces anyone to do them all they need to do is make there drops available in some other event like they did back at 75 with einherjar then both sets of people are happy.

I swear people like you make me so sick just because you didn't approve of them means they must be banished for good.

Right back at you, buddy /

[uptempo]

It's true you're a mug like him you don't like hnm we get it no need to keep going on about it you're like a broken record and together with that stupid post you made on ffxiah just goes to prove the extent of your butthurt.

Lets say that did add new hnms at 99 we all know they won't but lets pretend nothing would force you to do them and if you could get the same drops from another event you would have no room to complain but people like you still would you really are a pathetic creature.

[Camiie]

That's pretty much what's left of the HNM stigma, yeah.

What is so wrong with having the prospect of progression in a game like this? To use your analogy, low, low drop rates are akin to winning a Mog Bonanza every time you log into the game.


That's exactly right. It doesn't prove anything except that the person getting the drop was lucky. The saying, "I'd rather be lucky than good" should honestly be the FFXI motto. It's not a game of skill. It's not a game of dedication. It's a game of pure, dumb luck.



Voidwatch drops, and to an extent Walk of Echoes, are a game of chance, nothing more. I could do Voidwrought 200 times and be in the exact same position as when I started - no closer to any of my goals and practically tearing my hair out. I've been through this enough in old FFXI and I got a harsh taste of reality when I went to do my Black Belt post HNM revamp. I'll tell you now, after over 3000 Kindred Seals, 8 Wyrms, 8 Fafnirs, 21 Chlevniks, 21 Behemoths, 1 King Behemoth, 4 Adamantoises and 1 Aspid, my reaction to finally finishing was not one of joy, but one of "THANK GOD THAT'S OVER." Each time I killed one of the NMs, my heart sank just that little bit more and I very nearly quit the game by the end of it all. I look back at my Black Belt not with fond memories, but as one hell of a lot of wasted time.


I think many people can't tell the difference between a sense of accomplishment and a sense of relief. It's not so much that they're happy they won, it's that they're "happy" they finally stopped losing. And yes, when we go out and do an event with a desired result in mind and that result isn't reached, we lost. And FFXI has a habit of making us lose a lot before arbitrarily allowing us to win.



In comparison, my Empyreans and my Relic were much less painful as I was making progress little by little, day by day. I could see how far I was getting and this gave the motivation I needed to keep going, despite the events being boring as hell. I will tell you now that if I had to kill Voidwrought, Qilin or whatever other VWNM 200 times to guarantee me the drop I wanted, you could sign me up rght now. Einherjar's Ichor system and to a lesser extent, Assault Points, were some of the best ideas SE had to make gear more accessible and it's sad they didn't take advantage of it more.



Yes! I'd be glad to do VW or whatever new events come along if I knew for sure that it'd be worth my time and not be such a gamble. Not all of us like to gamble. There's nothing wrong with having random drops AND a points system within the same event. It works! There's proof of it working out very well! They can easily appease both the gamblers and non-gamblers, but for some reason they choose not to even try to do so with the latter anymore. They won't even throw us a bone at all.

I just don't get why. Too lazy? Not enough manpower? Sorry, but I expect a bit more from a company with a history of greatness like SE. Goes against their current philosophy? To paraphrase a line from an anime I liked, "Screw your philosophy! SCREW IT!"



While people say people would quit if they got things too fast, the opposite holds true just as much - you cockblock people enough and there's a point they say "No more" and simply walk away out of frustration. Voidwatch is a perfect example of this, especially with the element of cocktease you get when that fulltime WHM that doesn't have a DD job gets that rare body piece!


People who enjoy how FFXI endgame content works as it is and see no need for any improvements should try explaining it to people who don't play MMOs or have played newer MMOs. Those crazy looks and incredulous responses they give aren't for nothing.



I think people overreact when they say "stop asking for easy mode, you noobs!" We're not asking for a silver platter - we're asking for a realistic reward in regards to time invested. That would give me no end of reason to keep playing the game now and into the future. You keep cockblocking people with artificial and unfair roadblocks, and they're gone.

EDIT:: I completely misread the post - I'm actually totally agreeing with you. Herpderp. xD


There is room for all sorts of content in FFXI. Easy, normal, and hard. There is room for different means of progress within the same event. Random drops and points. The problem is, SE doesn't seem to be working very hard to cater to everyone. They can give all the reasons and excuses they want, but why doesn't matter. They have to provide content that people will enjoy and find rewarding or they will lose subs. No offense, but hardcores and "gamblers" alone will not keep this game in business.

[Greatguardian]

That's exactly right. It doesn't prove anything except that the person getting the drop was lucky. The saying, "I'd rather be lucky than good" should honestly be the FFXI motto. It's not a game of skill. It's not a game of dedication. It's a game of pure, dumb luck.

You keep running around slandering a group of people without actually reading what they type in response to you. Read what myself and Uptempo are actually saying and you'll realize you're just yelling at air. Actual, living, existing HNM-class players are not running around making the stupid back-asswards claims that you're saying they are. If some real, living person is, point us in their direction so we can call them retarded too. Otherwise, you're just propagating a conflict that does not exist.

This is what I can't stand about posts like yours and Hayward's (See? I'm using specific examples instead of just saying "CASUALSSSSS RRRGH"). You talk so much about some elite community that has its head so far up its own ass that they can lick their own eyeballs, but who do you see actually instigating those beliefs? What "Elites" do you actually deal with? Who are the individual people making these retarded, back-asswards assertions about the game and trying to hold it back as much as possible?

It's impossible to deal with people when all they do is throw around broad generalizations rather than treating people like people. I'm a human being, and I will not be told what my beliefs are simply because I play at a higher level than others.

As for the part I've actually quoted, it really always is better to be lucky than skilled. Just ask Kai Allard-Liao and Victor Hanse Steiner-Davion.

[Camiie]

You keep running around slandering a group of people without actually reading what they type in response to you. Read what myself and Uptempo are actually saying and you'll realize you're just yelling at air. Actual, living, existing HNM-class players are not running around making the stupid back-asswards claims that you're saying they are. If some real, living person is, point us in their direction so we can call them retarded too. Otherwise, you're just propagating a conflict that does not exist.


Why so defensive? I never called you out. I don't actually like calling people out by name. I have seen the things said that I was talking about. I've seen them stated outright and implied. Do they reflect your views? That's great that they don't. I never said that they did.



This is what I can't stand about posts like yours and Hayward's (See? I'm using specific examples instead of just saying "CASUALSSSSS RRRGH"). You talk so much about some elite community that has its head so far up its own ass that they can lick their own eyeballs, but who do you see actually instigating those beliefs? What "Elites" do you actually deal with? Who are the individual people making these retarded, back-asswards assertions about the game and trying to hold it back as much as possible?


I really don't have a list of names. I don't keep a score sheet of who says what, but I assure you I have seen these ideas in game and in forums. I can't prove it, so I know you won't believe it until you see it. Next time I see something I'll be sure to PM you or something.



It's impossible to deal with people when all they do is throw around broad generalizations rather than treating people like people. I'm a human being, and I will not be told what my beliefs are simply because I play at a higher level than others.

As for the part I've actually quoted, it really always is better to be lucky than skilled. Just ask Kai Allard-Liao and Victor Hanse Steiner-Davion.


So you've never seen generalizations about "n00bs' and "casuals" and people who want "easymode" and "everything handed to them?" You've never seen anyone state that points systems are bad and only random is good? You've never seen people upset that things are too easy or too plentiful or what have you?

Now I don't really pay much attention to who says these things, and I don't do any background checks on them. They may or may not actually be elite players, but they tend to put forth the idea that they are. I really don't know whether you are or not, nor does it really matter to me. I will tell you I am not one, and you can certainly check up on my lack of eliteness if you want.

I'll do my best in the future to not be so general and document things better.

[Greatguardian]

Why so defensive? I never called you out. I don't actually like calling people out by name. I have seen the things said that I was talking about. I've seen them stated outright and implied. Do they reflect your views? That's great that they don't. I never said that they did.

If you call out elite players, then you call me out. You can Karbuncle out. You call Byrthnoth out. This is the quintessential problem with sweeping generalizations. Honestly, I've been on both sides of this fence, and all I can say is it needs to stop.


I really don't have a list of names. I don't keep a score sheet of who says what, but I assure you I have seen these ideas in game and in forums. I can't prove it, so I know you won't believe it until you see it. Next time I see something I'll be sure to PM you or something.

This is important. It doesn't matter whether or not someone is elite or casual or Wopadobop. Individuals hold individual views. If someone is being a flaming retard, then it is that person alone who is a flaming retard. It does everyone else around them a disservice to credit their flaming retardedness to their peers.


So you've never seen generalizations about "n00bs' and "casuals" and people who want "easymode" and "everything handed to them?" You've never seen anyone state that points systems are bad and only random is good? You've never seen people upset that things are too easy or too plentiful or what have you?

Now I don't really pay much attention to who says these things, and I don't do any background checks on them. They may or may not actually be elite players, but they tend to put forth the idea that they are. I really don't know whether you are or not, nor does it really matter to me. I will tell you I am not one, and you can certainly check up on my lack of eliteness if you want.

I've seen them. Most of the time, they come from people that I (and most of BG) would consider noobs/gimps/retards. The FFXI middle class is their own worst enemy. Those who have actually held power and prestige for a long period of time have grown accustomed to it. We don't particularly mind if other people share the limelight, since we already have plenty of claim to fame ourselves.

Personally, I was one of the originators of the now-famous Cataclysm cleave on BG (which got compiled and reposted by various others on nearly every website around). I lead and organized one of the server-first sub-12 man Odins many years ago, and I have an extremely solid reputation on my server. What do I care if other people get better at the game? Good for them, I say.

On the other hand, you have a lot of casual players who were suddenly thrust into the limelight with Abyssea. Suddenly, they were able to be "Elite" (think nouveau riche), and tried to lord it over others as much as possible like a kid with a new holographic Charizard. You have people who were solidly left out of serious Endgame content prior to Abyssea, suddenly wanting things to go back to being hard after they've come out on top so that they have a chance to flaunt their epeens the way that other people did to them in the past. While they may have everything they want now, they have it because it's not exclusive any more, and they desperately want to have their cake and eat it too.

These retards are not elite. They just wish they were, and are able to convince a decent amount of people who don't know better that they are. Please don't attribute their hubris to the rest of us. They're a disgrace to the term "Elitist".


I'll do my best in the future to not be so general and document things better.

Please do. Generalizations only perpetuate this senseless "Class warfare" that always seems to go on in more casual-heavy forums. You don't see BG bashing on new players all the time. We're actually extremely new-friendly, and have massive threads dedicated to helping new/returning players adjust to the game as it is now. On the other hand, whenever I walk into Alla or many social/casual shells, all I see is leet-bashing. Elitists this, Elitists that. If I'm to believe half of the things people say about Elitists, then I'd have to be a botting douchenozzle who will hack your account for fun and post pictures of myself tossing your Empyreans in BG: Media.

[SpankWustler]

There's a difference between wanting something to require relative effort for a relatively long period of time, and wanting something to require wrestling the seemingly sadistic workings of FFXI's Random Number Generator for a random period of time that may be forever.

Similarly, few people who want the former are huge fans of the latter. Check out threads about the Voidwatch item distribution thread for proof of that. Actually, I'm sure no small number of people would like the fights themselves to be more difficult but the item distribution system to make sense.

Lumping every kind of time or effort together isn't a good idea, and neither is lumping together everyone who wants stuff to require sizable time or effort.

[Crysten]

If you call out elite players, then you call me out. You can Karbuncle out. You call Byrthnoth out. This is the quintessential problem with sweeping generalizations. Honestly, I've been on both sides of this fence, and all I can say is it needs to stop.

I will definitely agree here. By and large I have a lot of respect for the BG community and what they contribute to the game. Players such as yourself, Byrthnoth, Kirschy, Nightfyre and several others have all been fantastic sources of information and as such, it is being unfair to lump you all together. I've seen that a lot of the more mature members of BG are pretty much on the same page.

That being said, much like you say, posts (http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/27014/dev-reducing-spawn-timer-for-all-hnms/6#1633316) like (http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/27014/dev-reducing-spawn-timer-for-all-hnms/7#1633431) this (http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/27014/dev-reducing-spawn-timer-for-all-hnms/7#1633659) only serve to reinforce the negative stigma a lot of players have towards endgame as a whole. Hell, using uptempo's posts on the previous page as another example - would there be as much unneeded enmity if I said I totally agreed with an HNM/Einherjar point style system as he said?

I think a lot of the generalizations can go both ways. Any relic/empyrean comparison thread pre-level 90 was pretty good proof of the kind of people that the community tend to resent.

And yes, they aren't "elitist."

[Camiie]

I've actually played with Kirschy and Nightfyre before. Been in LSes with them both and done lots of events with Kirschy. No issues with them at all. I don't know the other folks mentioned. I really didn't intend to lump everyone who was truly elite or knowledgeable into a certain category, even if I ended up doing so. I'm really sorry for that, as it wasn't my intention to insult good people.


I do hope that not everything I mentioned is invalidated by my mistake. If so, then I'll just try to make a better argument next time.

[Byrth]

I wouldn't call someone who can't spell and glorifies his bot an "elite" of anything. Nor would I call myself an elite though. I picked up Dancer specifically to avoid the whole Level 75 Endgame trap. All the job really needed at 75 was a few pieces from Dynamis. I don't dislike noobs. I don't dislike casuals. I dislike idiots. Unfortunately, there are plenty of idiots.

Now that everything is obtainable with a little skill and (sometimes quite a bit of) time, I'm doing fairly well for myself. Pushing the focus off the HNM system is one of the best things this game has ever done, and it's a rare bird who disagrees with that statement regardless of what group you're talking to. In general, I like the direction they have taken the game.

That said, I agree that they're taking the game whatever direction they want without much respect for the substantial quantities of player input they receive. Do I blame them? Not really. The effort SE would have to spend sorting out well-measured and thought out suggestions from the suggestions of idiots is substantial. Then, in our case, the effort they would have to spend translating our suggestions would be substantial. If you guys think they yield to JP suggestions much more than NA suggestions, you'd be wrong. The JPs were just as "wat? where did this come from." about the job FAQs when they came out and blamed us for it the same way we blamed them.

There are two types of things that actually get addressed:
* Bug Reports
* Localization Reports
Everything else is just SE's translated responses that they drop on to whatever thread fits the best. That's fine, I guess, but it means that people waste a lot of time and effort blowing smoke at each other proposing intricate ideas that will never be read, considered, or implemented.

[Karbuncle]

Feeling the love in here D:

[Crysten]

Can I have a hug? :<

[Karbuncle]

Yes. Yes you can

[Crysten]

And they all lived happily ever after <3

[Sparthos]

As someone who devoted alot of time to partly running a big HNMLS, I have mixed feelings regarding where SE has taken the game in the past year or so not because it undercut my "importance" but more because I play XI for the social aspect and that has started to significantly recede with the emphasis on content that can be duoed or trioed rather than things for 6-12man parties.

Marginalizing kings was one of the best things SE did with the game, don't get me wrong. The breath of fresh air that sent the most virulent botters packing along was way past overdue. Yeah, I camped my fair share of all those NMs (making large sums of gil in the process) but the arrogance that came with being the best claimer of a lottery mob had become completely silly and represented the worst this game had to offer.

There was never any challenge in Kings yet so many people equated skill with claims. Fafnir could always be slept, anyone could kite KB till reinforcements arrived and Aspid was stupid easy once you brought the proper number of BLMs. I had more joy beating the Pandemonium Warden than I ever did with Kings because time, skill and organization were all being tested while the only thing a Sandworm or Dark Ixion would frequently do is try my patience.

My main trouble with this game now is that the current systems of loot rewards is Abyssea which has ended for most individuals, Dynamis which is worthless unless you happen to be farming gil or a relic and Voidwatch which doesn't encourage LS play because the drops are terrible to sort out. People aren't going to waste time for marginal upgrades coming off a system where doing a few hours work resulted in huge upgrades and so they have voted with their feet to quit this game until version updates bring news of something worth chasing.

XI is in a good place if you like to play solo or catch up on old, rotting content but the future is bleak with regards to meaningful events being released anytime soon. We get promises of Nyzul II and revamps but what the game needs right now is buzz and life - not more events revolving around logs and ores.

[Alhanelem]

Well it's presumptuous to assume that every event is going to dispense useless garbage, but I agree with the message of your post for the most part. It does seem they've been saving some actually new content for 99, so hopefully this turns out to be more interesting.

For me, with things like Voidwatch, it isn't even the junk drops and low rate of good stuff- there just isn't anything in it that interests me. There are some nice items in it right now, but notihng that's worth the aggravation of the system. Being a dedicated PUP, I was pretty disappointed to find the only special drop for PUP ended up being a piece of trash (new animator) and basically lost any interest in doing the event. Everyone I know, at best, wants one or two items from all ov voidwatch (which consists of a bunch of paths with a bunch of NMs in total- only a couple are of interest to anyone I know)

[SpankWustler]

Feeling the love in here D:

You smell funny and you will never succeed in life. Worse yet, these two things are only tangentially related.


That said, I agree that they're taking the game whatever direction they want without much respect for the substantial quantities of player input they receive. Do I blame them? Not really. The effort SE would have to spend sorting out well-measured and thought out suggestions from the suggestions of idiots is substantial. Then, in our case, the effort they would have to spend translating our suggestions would be substantial. If you guys think they yield to JP suggestions much more than NA suggestions, you'd be wrong. The JPs were just as "wat? where did this come from." about the job FAQs when they came out and blamed us for it the same way we blamed them.

I can just imagine what would happen if they translated everything...

"So, what did Camate and Co. have for us this week?"

"To summarize, there were suggestions for improving the Voidwatch item distribution system, some minor and some rather large. In addition to that, there were suggestions about dual-wielding Great Katanas, sixteen vague and nebulous topics about improving Dark Knight (fifteen of which were started by the same person), a fellow named '...Spank...Wustler" suggested we run around the office naked and regularly break apart the copier to drink the toner contained within and a disturbing number of people found it believable, the entire Red Mage sub-forum is a den of fury, sadness, and conflict that every one of our community representatives refuse to...Sir, what are you doing?"

"I am putting on my clothes and having one last dram of White-Out before I leap from the nearest window. Congratulations on your coming promotion!"

[Alhanelem]

I lol'd. 12345

[Greatguardian]

I've actually played with Kirschy and Nightfyre before. Been in LSes with them both and done lots of events with Kirschy. No issues with them at all. I don't know the other folks mentioned. I really didn't intend to lump everyone who was truly elite or knowledgeable into a certain category, even if I ended up doing so. I'm really sorry for that, as it wasn't my intention to insult good people.


I do hope that not everything I mentioned is invalidated by my mistake. If so, then I'll just try to make a better argument next time.

No, your points stand. I just felt they were misdirected. People like the ones quoted by Crysten above are beyond help, and I recognize at least a couple of names as people who have been laughed off of and/or suspended from BG at least once. These people really aren't elite, though. They're just morons who have/had a decent bot. Equating skill with claim rates has never been anything more than laughable.

Honestly, I'm not really angry at you, and I apologize if I came off harshly. Your post just came off badly when read in conjunction with Hayward's. Hayward is a much better example of the problem I've been addressing. The man can only seem to spew vitriol whenever he posts about elite players or BG posters. It's a chronic problem, especially on these boards, and I was just getting tired of it.

Honestly, I can't and won't stand up for anyone and everyone who did HNMs. There are definitely jerks and jackasses around. But that's just how people are, and it happens at both ends of the spectrum. Thankfully, most of these people end up in the middle rather than at the top. It takes a certain measure of maturity and intelligence to make a skilled player, which typically precludes mouthbreathing retards like the ones Crysten referenced.

Personally, I've always felt that the Einherjar, Nyzul, and Assault drop systems were some of the best in the game. Adding Abjuration drops to Einherjar with unique Odin-only drops, while allowing kings to keep some marginally useful (but not game-breaking or absolutely necessary) items was a wonderful balance. The Ichor and Assault Point systems were nice, and I always hoped they would be expanded upon for those who already had everything they wanted from them.

The biggest problem with point based systems is stagnation. Once I had X, Y, and Z, Ichor became useless to me. Adding valuable consumables and crafting materials to point reward lists would help give people a reason to continue utilizing them after they have the gear that they want.

I wouldn't mind new world spawns, I just don't want them to become the be-all-end-all again. Allowing players to get items faster via world spawns, and slower but claim-free in a battlefield-esque system while maintaining some individuality by including unique but not end-all pieces to each system would be ideal. There are people who just want to go out and get things right now by claiming HNMs, and that's fine. There's just no reason to make that the absolute crux of the game again.

[Hayward]

Playing for 7 years and seeing the garbage posted on Alla (usually by sockpuppets from other forums) for as many years, you'd be tired of elitists (or should I say egomaniacs, for which I have a low tolerance) too if you had to hear horror stories about various job discrimination issues (<insert flavor-of-the-month job> only, lol<insert whatever job is out of favor accoding to the talking points>, "Level a 'real' job", etc.), (H)NM claiming issues, and general ignorance on S-E's part on how to bring certain jobs up to par (particularly Summoner. I've enjoyed the job over the years, but I hate the fact that I've done so despite S-E's slow-footing on fixing the job for fear of "overpowering" it). That gets old really fast and nobody should have to put up with it without calling BS on it.

I have no hatred of HNMs at all beyond the unjustifiable drop rates and cheap tactics programmed into them. My beef is with HNM linkshells members who act like someone shot their mothers when those who were sick of the political BS were able to acquire good stuff in Abyssea and through Magian Trials with a little effort and persistence (Empyrean weapons aren't my cup of tea, but I still respect those who have come through those trials without losing their sanity). S-E did something so right in releasing Abyssea that the professional endgamers nearly had a collective case of cardiac arrest, it seemed. From experience alliances that allowed any job to get experience without waiting hours or days for a party, to AF3 sets that I hope will remain good up to 99, to item drops that are not only good but drop reliably, Abyssea is what MMOs are supposed to be about. Abyssea had the right kind of balance, with good rewards for honest effort.

You bet I get irritated when someone starts screaming "Easy Mode" just because we don't have to risk losing 4-5 levels for a Fire Crystal drop anymore (exaggeration, yes, but you get the idea). That stuff needs to be called out as well as absurdities being posted in response to threads looking for ways to make jobs stand out more than they currently do without requiring Empyrean weapons.

[Greatguardian]

I think I found the problem. You based your interpretation of Elite/HNM/Endgame players on Allakhazam - on stories or linkshells rather than on individuals.

Were there dicks out there? Yeah. Did they exist on Cerberus? Definitely. Do the vast majority of these players even play the game any more? Nah. Are the remaining ones still dickholes? Not really, a lot of people grew out of it when they got the chance. Christ, even Armada's mellowed out a ton (though really it was more a few members giving them a bad name in the first place).

If you actually read BG (I know, the devil's forum, etc) you'd find that most people like the ones you described are told to gtfo of there, too. Most Endgamers really did not have a cardiac arrest. It was just a few loud, annoying, retarded ones that we don't like either.

Sure, I'd like content that's harder than Abyssea, but there's a difference between wanting something that doesn't bore me to tears and having a conniption fit because casuals can get gear.

[SpankWustler]

general ignorance on S-E's part on how to bring certain jobs up to par

I think this is something that people are aggravated by across the board, and I'm not sure how it's related to player mentality since developer responses to player feedback are often dubious. To their credit, they did handle the recent AI changes for puppets like really awesome people doing a really awesome thing.

As for the rest, people are individuals and I think you're connecting dots that just don't connect. I'm sure it's cathartic somehow to blame every issue within FFXI on the far-reaching tentacles of one conglomerated group, but that group doesn't really exist.

In reality, just a handful of people feel setting up a bot and a few doodads properly should still be the pinnacle of the FFXI experience. I'd guess most folks who are old-hands at end-game stuff are in the "My imaginary person sat in a vomit-green room for three hours while I cleaned my house and learned guitar because, hey, what else was there to do in 2005?" club and are more than happy that things lean more towards active content now.

The FFXI community isn't the two-party system that far too many people perceive. There are people who want content to be less random but take more time and effort. There are people who want to try their luck with stuff that pops whenever it wants and drops whatever nobody wants. There are people who want more straight-up casual-friendly stuff. There are people who make topics complaining about Dark Knight's something or Summoner spirits forever and ever.

[Crysten]

I think it all ultimately boils down to one simple thing - the hugely vocal, stupid minority will silence the silent, sensible majority 100% of the time. People end up judging their opinions on the minority, and we end up in a similar situation to this.

Happens with everything, not just FFXI.

[Zerich]

AM I TOO LATE TO COMPLAIN ABOUT HASTEGA BEING SMN ONRY?!

[Malamasala]

Sure, I'd like content that's harder than Abyssea, but there's a difference between wanting something that doesn't bore me to tears and having a conniption fit because casuals can get gear.

This part I always disagree with though. People that expect to gear the best, and adapt their alliances to 18 most suitable jobs, then complain that it wasn't hard enough.

It should be perfectly obvious AND expected that if you have a relic/empy/mythic there shouldn't be any hard content left for you, because you picked up the "easy mode" weapon. Same when you are not filling the party with PUPs and SCHs and DNCs and what else is less popular than PLD, WAR, WHM, BRD etc.

You always have the option of making content hard. And every single person always picks the easy way by wearing the best gear and coming as the best job. If the topic is difficulty, then the problem is yourself (and friends). You can always have a fun and challenging battle if you aim for it.

[Greatguardian]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

[Greatguardian]

The essence of a challenge is giving it your best and struggling to come out on top.

If you won't give it your all, then it's not something worth doing to begin with.

[Alhanelem]

while I understand and agree with parts of Mala's sentiment, there still needs to be something to provide some kind of challenge to the people who have the best.

They shouldn't be FORCED to weaken themselves just to make the game more fun.

[Chriscoffey]

while I understand and agree with parts of Mala's sentiment, there still needs to be something to provide some kind of challenge to the people who have the best.

They shouldn't be FORCED to weaken themselves just to make the game more fun.
Most of this non-challenge has came because of too many great job abilities and adjustments. I wish someone could have played most of these jobs before all the updates like warrior and samurai. SE went and got crazy with adjustments after the 2 handed update and it has yet to stop so anything added after this fact has been quite easy to beat.

The HNM before were easy to some people but by a comparative measure nothing how they are today. I saw linkshells still taking an hour before abyssea came out to beat Fafnir when most linkshells I knew of could do it in a few minutes tops. That is the underlying problem where people who just don't educate themselves to understand their teamwork and game play bitch rage because they can't do something others do quite easily.

[OgreBattle]

You could have new challenge in simply having another format to approach the battle. Characters are pretty optimized to crush single, tough bosses. Do something different (say, multiple enemies that cannot be disabled you fight at once, the whole dungeon being the challenge and involving a split up alliance cooperating, etc.) and you'll get, at the very least, a different feeling of challenge.

[Greatguardian]

That's basically Einherjar. It's not really hard, especially since each foe has to have their strength scaled down in order to make it viable to split up. Make foes too strong, and we'll just sac them. Honestly, it's our job as players to figure out how to beat whatever the Devs come up with. We're going to do it. It's their job as Devs, then, to provide us with new challenges to overcome.

And, of course, it's SE's job to provide the Devs with the personnel and funding necessary to do that if they want to keep the game running.

[Chriscoffey]

I know exactly how to help in the all out zerg type battles. The concept is to go back to doing skill chains again. The mobs are strong to both physical and magical but not to the point they are immune just enough you do damage. You then have to skill chain to open them up to certain magic abilities or physical damage. During this variable window you could zerg or to add even farther progression the more links in the skill chain you do the more damage and increase the window timeframe is added.

There could exist easier 1 skill chain type mobs to the more extreme 4+ skill chain link type based mobs. This could pose some challenge to people as I know most of these new players fail at skill chains now lol. I don't find them hard but it does put a pause in between zerg fested playing.

I also believe end game HNM should be longer periods of time than the said 30 minutes VW are now. I would like for it to be an increased time but not like an 18 hour pandy/AV fight either. I believe they can make us a good challenge in FFXI if they just put their energy into FFXI and not FF14 for more people to /facepalm quit.

[Juri_Licious]

Make a new Absolute Zero type NM for the 99 cap. (Not to break the cap)

[Alhanelem]

Most of this non-challenge has came because of too many great job abilities and adjustments. I wish someone could have played most of these jobs before all the updates like warrior and samurai. SE went and got crazy with adjustments after the 2 handed update and it has yet to stop so anything added after this fact has been quite easy to beat.

The HNM before were easy to some people but by a comparative measure nothing how they are today. I saw linkshells still taking an hour before abyssea came out to beat Fafnir when most linkshells I knew of could do it in a few minutes tops. That is the underlying problem where people who just don't educate themselves to understand their teamwork and game play bitch rage because they can't do something others do quite easily.

You have to add and change features of classes peroidcally or things get stale. This means old challenges get easier and room is made for new challenges. If you leave the old challenges hard, it gets harder and harder for newer players to play catch up. Part of the reason newer players can get into things and be up with us so quickly is they don't have to spend as much time on the older stuff. It's good for the existing players too because they get fresh blood infused more quickly. Basically, leaving everything like the good old days means things just get boring. Of course, not everything has to be changed, nor does it all have to be changed constantly.

By the way, the famous HNMs were never all that hard. The only real challenge was beating claim bots to the punch. The monsters themselves have not changed (much), we've simply gotten higher levels and new abilities that make them easier. In exchange, we get new stuff to challenge us. That's just how most MMOs work. Your "underlying problem" isn't really the underlying problem. The real problem is when we don't get new challenges or those challenges are too inaccessible or not rewarding enough to get enough of a following (e.g. voidwatch).

[Chriscoffey]

You have to add and change features of classes peroidcally or things get stale. This means old challenges get easier and room is made for new challenges. If you leave the old challenges hard, it gets harder and harder for newer players to play catch up. Part of the reason newer players can get into things and be up with us so quickly is they don't have to spend as much time on the older stuff. It's good for the existing players too because they get fresh blood infused more quickly. Basically, leaving everything like the good old days means things just get boring. Of course, not everything has to be changed, nor does it all have to be changed constantly.

By the way, the famous HNMs were never all that hard. The only real challenge was beating claim bots to the punch. The monsters themselves have not changed (much), we've simply gotten higher levels and new abilities that make them easier. In exchange, we get new stuff to challenge us. That's just how most MMOs work. Your "underlying problem" isn't really the underlying problem. The real problem is when we don't get new challenges or those challenges are too inaccessible or not rewarding enough to get enough of a following (e.g. voidwatch).
I think you would be incorrect in your comparison to say jobs (I.E. warrior/samurai) of 03 is anything even remotely close to those of today with all the changes. This in turn made the HNM a harder challenge in itself because they were never really adjusted other than rage mode for all those years. The wyrms were always causing problems with people on all levels of playing unless you had the best teamwork available before.

I agree with you on some points but if there wasn't a huge difference in educating how one plays to say they are "easy" then you shouldn't have had people still taking an hour to beat "easy" mobs like Fafnir before abyssea came out. I just don't agree that people who complain from that group determine what "end game" is for someone like me who did FFXI end game with ease and wanted an update to this. I saw no reason for the ones taking longer to beat mobs not to "learn" to be more efficient in a team like the rest of us did so they could be more effective in a group alliance.

I am not stipulating there should be no updates and we are fighting the same HNM for years and years with stagnation occuring. I am saying that as far as a challenge goes they got progressively easier to the point that they weren't anything close to something i would consider end game anymore. There wasn't anything really added after to give a fresh outlook on the end game scene either other than Einherjar/Salvage. I did enjoy Einherjar before it was crapped on with new content.

[Olor]

So I'm hearing new relic is upgraded with 100 peices - if that's the case does anyone else think it is madness?

[Alhanelem]

I think you would be incorrect in your comparison to say jobs (I.E. warrior/samurai) of 03 is anything even remotely close to those of today with all the changes.Say what? Where did I make this comparison or say this? I said jobs change and evolve over time. That includes I.E. Warrior/Samurai from 03 vs now. You're right, they aren't remotely close to what they were back then. This is a good thing, not a bad thing.

New abilities are going to make old thins progressively easier. That's why the new abilities exist. To make old challenges easier and to present new challenges that require intelligent use of the new features to win.

[Greatguardian]

So I'm hearing new relic is upgraded with 100 peices - if that's the case does anyone else think it is madness?

We're still not really sure where that information is coming from. The Magian data is screwed up on the test server, for both NA and JP clients as far as I can tell. One of the Kila trials redirects to an item from a 2004 holiday event, lol.

I'd call it speculative bullshit until there's some serious confirmation on either the data or the source. No one is going to build the equivalent of a relic to complete their AF2+2 sets.

[SpankWustler]

We're still not really sure where that information is coming from. The Magian data is screwed up on the test server, for both NA and JP clients as far as I can tell. One of the Kila trials redirects to an item from a 2004 holiday event, lol.

I am amazed by the randomness of the random stuff the Alzheimer's-afflicted Magian Moogle is spitting out now.

My personal favorites are the ones that currently award a cabinet or bookshelf for upgrading one's weapon. I imagine a character being so infuriated after completing the broken trial that he or she carries the offending furnishing away in a huff and uses it as an impromptu weapon. As you'd expect from a fifty pound wooden construct, it is quite effective.

My guess is that the Alzheimer's Moogle mumbled he wanted was a couple of 100 pieces to upgrade some piece or the other. Since this made more since than anything else he'd said about cabinets and event items, it was assumed to be correct. It's not impossible, but I wouldn't get worked up over it yet.

[Malamasala]

The real problem is when we don't get new challenges or those challenges are too inaccessible or not rewarding enough to get enough of a following (e.g. voidwatch).

The real problem is that people don't want challenges. They say they do, so they can sound cool, but in reality they do not want them.

Make for example a NM with en-death that goes through shadows. Suddenly only thing that can kill it is either kiting BLMs or a SMN party. Challenging? Well, 18 of 20 jobs can't do it, so it should be called hard or? But since you can make a group and win, it is too easy. So we need something harder than a monster that kills instantly. How about death aura? Now we are talking. As soon as a someone is within 20' they die. There we have it, a challenge to figure out how to kill a monster that kills everyone before they can touch it.

But is it really a challenge if it is impossible? Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

Personally I think SE needs more gimmick designs. Like a monster that takes 100 - damage from weapon damage. So someone hitting for 150, heals 50, someone who goes up with a weak weapon doing 5 damage, hits for 95. So on those NMs the best weapons are those that have very low damage rating like Trick Staff.

But yea, imagine how many relic and empy owners that would do such NMs and not just say "Nah, I won't do stuff I'm not awesome at".

There is no content you can make that makes people like greatguardian happy.

[Meyi]

I don't think that's true at all, Mala. Greatguardian is a pretty reasonable guy. I don't even see him complaining about content currently available, but rather making comments here and there how he would be interested in seeing some fresh, challenging content.

Sometimes the best part of a challenge is breaking it down and solving it.

I think SE was on the right track with Abyssea monsters by making them change depending on spawn conditions. The only reason this became so incredibly easy was the fact that they gave us the Abyssite of Discernment. When Abyssea first came out, it was incredibly difficult getting anything to proc because we had no clue what we were doing. I really like the idea that monsters vary depending on what day it is, what time it is, who popped them and the conditions of whoever popped it last. As I've seen said before, Abyssea may be the training grounds for the new end game content, and if it is, I'm very excited to see what Square Enix will create for us!

[SpankWustler]

The only things a Notorious Monster really needs to be both challenging and fun are a few interesting TP moves, high enough parameters that players will want enfeebling stuff on the monster and buffing stuff on themselves, the ability to be fought fairly often, and drops that feel like a reward instead of a punishment.

The Development Bros have created some commendably horrifying TP moves lately, but they seem compelled to make Notorious Monsters consistently immune to enfeebling magic and less often but still regularly equipped with some form of Dispel instead of just making the monster more difficult under the assumption it will be enfeebled and players will be well-buffed.

They also seem to weigh how often a monster can be fought against the chance of that monster dropping anything that anyone would ever want. If something can be fought on a regular basis, you can expect it to provide you with a plethora of logs and ore and logs and ore and logs and ore and logs and ore.

LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND 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AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND LOGS AND LOGS AND ORE AND...LOGS?

[Ravenmore]

Its been beaten to death but its still true, the hardest thing that ever been or ever will be in FFXI is finding 5 to 17 other people that are not brain dead. Its also not like ever group has to break down each fight. Once a mob is down and the strat used is posted on wiki(well not anymore) or BGwiki its not that hard.

[Chriscoffey]

I stick to my skill chain idea which not only slows the fight down progressively from zerging all the time to a more controllable fight pattern for different stages of the fight mechanics.

[Hayward]

Whenever I read posts from people who call for more "challenge" I tend to read that with the stipulation "except for my superior job that has the best endgame gear on my server". Mellowy is in part right that people want a challenge except when they don't. I don't want any part of NMs that have Doom Auras or En-Doom like Xibalba or Myrmecoleon unless someone at S-E wises up and makes Cursna 100% effective against it.

Playing cards with someone who marked the deck isn't a challenge anyone should want to undertake. Nor should anyone want the type of "challenges" (read: stacked decks in S-E's favor) that some are wishing for.

[Greatguardian]

Then you completely misread my post and Mellowy's with it.

I want things to be hard despite having an ideal setup and perfect gear. I'm not asking for anything to be hard "For anyone who doesn't have perfect gear". Though, I guess that would naturally follow off of what I'm asking. No, I want content that's hard even for hardcores.

[Chriscoffey]

Then you completely misread my post and Mellowy's with it.

I want things to be hard despite having an ideal setup and perfect gear. I'm not asking for anything to be hard "For anyone who doesn't have perfect gear". Though, I guess that would naturally follow off of what I'm asking. No, I want content that's hard even for hardcores.
Most people fail to realize what this actually means to an "end game" challenge. They all put anyone in this mindset to the elitist frame of mind and that we must be evil bastards for considering something that takes more teamwork less zerg fest.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Myrmecoleon unless someone at S-E wises up and makes Cursna 100% effective against it.

Myrmecoleon has en-doom?

[Juri_Licious]

Why do we suffer from PS2 limitations?
SE: To keep it balanced.

[Hayward]

Myrmecoleon has en-doom?

My mistake. I was thinking of Megantereon (the tiger in La Thiene [A]). I'll never know how Myrmecoleon, which I never fought, came to my mind.

Good catch.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

My mistake. I was thinking of Megantereon (the tiger in La Thiene [A]). I'll never know how Myrmecoleon, which I never fought, came to my mind.

Good catch.

Ah, just wondered as I kill that on BST all the time and he'd never doomed me.

[Leonlionheart]

I haven't read anything other than OP and some interesting points, but I just wanted to say

The original post has one of the best points I've ever seen on these forums.

[Malamasala]

Then you completely misread my post and Mellowy's with it.

I want things to be hard despite having an ideal setup and perfect gear. I'm not asking for anything to be hard "For anyone who doesn't have perfect gear". Though, I guess that would naturally follow off of what I'm asking. No, I want content that's hard even for hardcores.

No, he read my post perfectly. Perhaps too well, maybe he is a mind reader.

And I'm just saying that so far I haven't met a single person on forums or in game that would want to do content without good loot tables for them. They obviously do not care about the content, they want to be special wearing rare armors.

You are welcome to prove me wrong. The world could need a few people who actually kill NMs without drops.

[SpankWustler]

And I'm just saying that so far I haven't met a single person on forums or in game that would want to do content without good loot tables for them. They obviously do not care about the content, they want to be special wearing rare armors.

You are welcome to prove me wrong. The world could need a few people who actually kill NMs without drops.

Counterpoint: People actually do Voidwatch.

Voidwatch's item distribution system is byzantine. A large chunk of the items obtained are extremely situational.

A big part of the reason that many people do Voidwatch is because it provides a different experience than most other content available right now. People do want Toci's Thingy, but I think it's safe to say such items aren't the main reason people do Voidwatch.

[Economizer]

Voidwatch's item distribution system is byzantine. A large chunk of the items obtained are extremely situational.

To be fair to Voidwatch, I like the fact that each drop is individual - it destroys point systems that have a chance of rewarding favoritism. I think the entire system could easily get a fix by making rare items that someone already has automatically go into the pool when they open their chest (or by making none of the items that drop in VW chests ex). The problem with such a fix is that SE would claim they have to nerf already low drop rates in order to maintain "balance" somehow.

[FrankReynolds]

I was just thinking that now that they made the chat box re-sizeable, they will of course have to make it so that you can't see the text now, for balance purposes.

"Here you go kupo! Enjoy your empty boxes!"

Maybe they could put more logs in the chat box instead of text.

[Economizer]

I was just thinking that now that they made the chat box re-sizeable, they will of course have to make it so that you can't see the text now, for balance purposes.

That reminds me of a computer that was so old that the specs said it couldn't run the game, but it could...

Well, at least in full screen mode. When windowed mode was introduced I tried setting it up to run windowed for the person who was using it, but whenever you'd try to type anything in the screen or the text (I can't remember exactly) would go black until the text was entered or cleared.

Needless to say they used full screen mode until the setup could be upgraded.

[Shadowsong]

And I'm just saying that so far I haven't met a single person on forums or in game that would want to do content without good loot tables for them. They obviously do not care about the content, they want to be special wearing rare armors.


Congratulations, you finally realized what the difference between an MMO and a single player game is.