[dev1049] New weapon skills

[FrankReynolds]

It clearly shows that the animator of the WS put alot of detail into his craft only to have it immediately become worthless as many of these skills will never see the day of light thanks to his team leaders poor decision making.



There is a video on the SE youtube feed where they show how animations and cut scenes are made. It is really stupid how much time they must have spent making this bullshit.

[saevel]

My personal theory is that they changed design team members when Tanaka came back to FFXI. All the guys that designed Abyssea and the 80~95 level upgrades have been moved over to FFXIV to try to remake it and salvage that mess. They took the people who destroyed FFXIV and put them in charge of doing FFXI. Can't really fire them and need them to do something productive, so here we are. Their doing the same thing to FFIX that they did to FFXIV from it's birth, refuse to listen to the players and just do whatever they see fit to force us to play the way they want us to play. They keep this up and it'll be two games that Tanaka and crew destroyed.

[Mightyg]

People want new weaponskills that are worth using. Especially if you're going to make us use 100 merit points just to get them to decent. Make these weaponskills worth using, and then if you want us to have other options with other weaponskills, adjust them to be more on par with the level 99 and weapon specific skills. Also make them do level 3 skillchains for crying out loud. Sheesh.

If you can't do that because of "balance", then just drop the merit requirement altogether. Even the people desperate for new content would look at this and think it's not worth their time.

[darkhorror]

If you want to add balance with previous WS's allow us to boost our other ws's through merits.

[Luvbunny]

My personal theory is that they changed design team members when Tanaka came back to FFXI. All the guys that designed Abyssea and the 80~95 level upgrades have been moved over to FFXIV to try to remake it and salvage that mess. They took the people who destroyed FFXIV and put them in charge of doing FFXI. Can't really fire them and need them to do something productive, so here we are. Their doing the same thing to FFIX that they did to FFXIV from it's birth, refuse to listen to the players and just do whatever they see fit to force us to play the way they want us to play. They keep this up and it'll be two games that Tanaka and crew destroyed.

Yup another bonfire - and we become the casualties, the players.... Perhaps another public shaming is needed - seemed the one he got last year did not quite works. If you compared the "tone and voice" of the letter from the developers of FFXI and FF14, you will see a massive big difference. And, oooops, we never really got a letter from the developers from FFXI - lol, just to show you that THIS particular group do not care about the paying subscribers, they never do, and they ignore all of our feedbacks and rants. Even if we cancel, they would not do anything, unless the CEO gives them a good spanking. Otherwise business as usual - ignore forum and player base and pretend that the level cap is still 75.

[xbobx]

Lets all stand in jeuno at a certain set time and all do the /disgust emote at once . yay.

[Doombringer]

has anybody thought to point out that refresh2 is better than refresh? why was refresh2 not balanced so as to prevent refresh from becoming obsolete? comon' se.. a little consistency here?

or any other spell with a number after it's name for that matter.. when's the last time YOU cast dia? i think for me it was about 6 years ago.. se.. this is a travesty.. dia is dramatically underpowered... how dare you?!

[Cowardlybabooon]

SE I think you're doing it right and lazy people just want hand outs. Don't listen to the haters :-)

[Kalilla]

no my argument is if you want a better weapon skill get an empyrean.
Not even caught up to the bottom of the page but are you really that stupid?

Some people are so dense that they think their job is the only job in the game, and their empyrean is the only empyrean that matters in the game.

Have you heard of Gambanteinn? Do you even know what Dagan does?

Complete. Moron.

[xbobx]

SE I think you're doing it right and lazy people just want hand outs. Don't listen to the haters :-)

100,000 merits is a handout and lazy to do? *3 sure exp is easier to get, but that still takes time and is not lazy. No, Se is not doing it right, they haven't been doing much right in a while.

[FrankReynolds]

Not even caught up to the bottom of the page but are you really that stupid?

Some people are so dense that they think their job is the only job in the game, and their empyrean is the only empyrean that matters in the game.

Have you heard of Gambanteinn? Do you even know what Dagan does?

Complete. Moron.

Brolic just trolls. Laugh at whatever nonsense he says and then continue as if it never happened.

[Koroma]

has anybody thought to point out that refresh2 is better than refresh? why was refresh2 not balanced so as to prevent refresh from becoming obsolete? comon' se.. a little consistency here?

or any other spell with a number after it's name for that matter.. when's the last time YOU cast dia? i think for me it was about 6 years ago.. se.. this is a travesty.. dia is dramatically underpowered... how dare you?!

Should you really be giving SE ideas at this point?

[scaevola]

Maybe I shouldn't be complaining because the weaponskills I'm meriting are untouched but:

SE do you really think its fair that realmrazer < hexa now, new axe ws < rampage, Reqiuescat <= Spirits Within , etc when
Tachi Shoha > Tachi: Fudo, Blade Shun is on par with blade HI (this varies), Nothing comes close to Last Stand for marksmenship physical ws and therefore is on par with wildfire for usage, etc. I really didn't see the problem with leaving the weaponskills as they were when they were released. Was it that bad the Realmrzer beat hexa, and that whms finally had a new weaponskill to use after all these years? Or same with bsts and the new axe weaponskill. I mean come on, SE. Even the polearm weaponskill has it use in enhancing drakesbane because of enemy crit evasion-. I just think some of your decisions are made on a whim.

I may have just shot myself in the foot with this post (Don't touch Last Stand -.-), but whatever.

This is exactly right. It's not that the new WSes are bad; it's that some of them are bad and some of them are amazing, and the ones that are amazing went to precisely the jobs that did not need an amazing new weapon skill.

Pretty much the only job getting a weapon skill it really needs is DNC.

[Dragoy]

I haven't been following this thread too closely, so, are they actually saying what they are saying of fully merited weapon skills? I.e., they are comparing the fully merited new club ws to Hexa Strike and think they should be equal'ish?

Really?

Wow... just wow! ~ö~

[FrankReynolds]

I haven't been following this thread too closely, so, are they actually saying what they are saying of fully merited weapon skills? I.e., they are comparing the fully merited new club ws to Hexa Strike and think they should be equal'ish?

Really?

Wow... just wow! ~ö~

Yes, they are truly idiot savants. They have somehow built a successful, long running MMO using the most deranged logic ever.

[Dragoy]

Haha, and silly me was under the impression of that they were possibly making the initial levels of them perhaps slightly weaker or so, but this just does not make any sense, whatsoever.

Or well, obviously it does to them, and for their plans as it is their game after all and I always had much, maybe a little too much understanding for them but this is just... weird. :S

Will be interesting to see what will come of all of it in due time, if anything.

[doctorugh]

Ok, so its obvious most players are very frustrated with the nerfing of the potential damage of some nice looking WS's. "Balance" is the word used to explain to the player base why they are doing this. But I believe the word "compromise" should be looked in to by the development team. Perhaps SE believes that the damage should not be as high as other WS......fine, but if you want them to ever be used (even situationally), a nice buff might make it worth while. Here is my proposal:

Sword - add en-nonelemental damage to melee swings after (1min - 2min - 3min duration at 100/200/300%)

*This would enhance total overall damage, while not exceeding damage from CDC,Vorpal,Sanguine and add further utility to physically resistant mobs

Club - 5% -> 10% -> 15% damage is given back in MP

*The mage jobs,paladin get benefit from this. Warrior may have enough attack to make this WS usable and MNK.....to bad, you should be hitting shit with your hands anyways

Staff - Adds 10-20-30 MAB for 3 minute duation

* Would encourage mages to start off the fight with a WS before returning to backline for nukes

Dagger - Adds 10-20-30 eva for 1 min duration

* An already solid WS, a smaller boost for the jobs that can use it

G.Katana - Adds 10-20-30 STR for 1 min duration

* A good WS from my understanding, could mix this back a forth between Fudo for a nice boost

Axe - Adds Haste (1-2-3min duration)

* I'm understanding a major nerf is being ordered up, this might be nice for solo-BST, or even a reason for the other axe wielders to start with this WS and swap to another weapon for more variety/damage

HtH - Regain +1(for user and automaton) (1-2-3min duration)

* I hear this is an ok WS, again this might be a small reason to start a fight with this WS (or even help gain TP prior to bigger fight)

Gaxe - Adds Stoneskin (doesnt overwrite)

* Could help with that whole idea that SE wants War to tank more

Katana - Adds Reraise (2-4-6 min duration, doesnt overwrite)

* Might be interesting for tank/zombie purpose

Polearm - Adds 15% attack up (1-2-3 min duration)

* That way at least the next WS (and melee between) will be more on target with damage, again a reason to use but not to spam

Marksmanship - Adds 20 racc/acc (1-2-3 min duration)

* A strong WS already, just a slight boost for the jobs that might have a harder time hitting racc cap anyways (COR,THF)

Archery - adds Blink (# of shadows depend on TP, think Occulation)

* I see enough /SAM not using seigan to know this could be useful

GSword - Adds Plague spikes (1-2-3 min duration)

* Might be a useful tanking tool

Scythe - next spell adds 20-40-60% damage

* Hey, a dark knight might actually want to nuke something


Anyways, some of these might seem kinda goofy, but they wouldn't be "Broken" imo, and wouldn't take away "Balance" (in that its the only WS you'll ever use), but it would be more of a "Compromise", where we would all enjoy having an interesting WS for a nice buff that we could mix in with more damaging WS's.

[IronPandemonium]

Pretty much the only job getting a weapon skill it really needs is DNC.

>implying samurai had a relevant weapon skill

I still feel for all the other jobs though regardless, especially dark knight in particular, since it's not like MP's ever an issue anyways when the only spell you ever really cast is stun.

[Vitus]

I have most empy WS for my melees and still bugged with their idea of balancing the final WS to some of 50s. It is logical to have better WS as you get stronger/higher levels. There is nothing broken about the latest WS to be the strongest ones. There is nothing broken about level99 wreck havoc on old, too weak zones with new found power. Let everyone have fun. After all people playing the game is to have fun. The hardcores/jobless/basement dwellers still reign supreme and with their superior base dmg relics and the like. It will be win-win-win for everyone.

In this new era of gaming need new and young blood and creativity. There is no hope for SE's future with these old men at the helm of its goldmine.

[Dreamin]

Here's calling the compromise that's coming...

Those WS will be required for the new VW procs. Maybe even the 101-500 climb proc. Why? Because there's no new content coming and they need to pad in as much time sink as possible in hope of ppl will get sick of 11 and move on to 14. The reality will be most ppl going to just give up on SE and drop 11 like a brick and ignore 14 altogether.

[Amador]

Here's calling the compromise that's coming...

Those WS will be required for the new VW procs. Maybe even the 101-500 climb proc. Why? Because there's no new content coming and they need to pad in as much time sink as possible in hope of ppl will get sick of 11 and move on to 14. The reality will be most ppl going to just give up on SE and drop 11 like a brick and ignore 14 altogether.

Stop. They've already stated they weren't gonna be used as procs in ANYTHING.

[Dreamin]

Stop. They've already stated they weren't gonna be used as procs in ANYTHING.

No, they said NOT all 'NEW' content will have proc system. Not no more proc in anything coming out.

[Nightfyre]

No, they said NOT all 'NEW' content will have proc system. Not ALL.

They said that not all upcoming endgame content will have proc systems, AND that merit weaponskills in particular would not be procs in those endgame activities that will have proc systems. Two different posts.

[Insaniac]

Correct. Yes, these WSs will for the most part be pointless. The good news is that you don't need to unlock them at all!! That's some silver lining...

[Amador]

Howdy all!

I wanted to share some information on adjustments that will be made to some of the new weapon skills.


• Great Sword Weapon Skill “Resolution”
We’re currently making adjustments so this weapon skill deals more damage to higher level enemies. We will be slightly weakening the effects of the TP damage modifier, but making it so the modifier won’t only be for the first hit as we’ll be changing it so that it’s for all 5 hits.
　
• Scythe Weapon Skill “Entropy”
We will be making adjustments so that the amount of MP recovered will be within a range.
There will be cases where the MP recovered will be higher or possibly lower than now, but we are planning to adjust this so that the average will not change by much.

• Katana Weapon Skill “Blade: Shun”
We will be making adjustments to this weapon skill in the same way as those listed for “Resolution.”

Also, as a side note, we don’t have any plans of adding these new weapon skills to the arsenal of enemy weakness exploits, so don’t not worry about picking which ones you would like to upgrade based on that.

Here is the information that states they will not be used and you can get w/e you want. So, yes. Stop it.

[Camate]

With today’s test server update we have implemented all the aforementioned adjustments.

We plan on making adjustments as necessary after the version update takes place, so please try out the weapon skills with these adjustments and let us know your feedback.

Also, with this update, you will need to place merit points into the new weapon skills you would like to use and you will need to fulfill the below requirements:

-Level 96+
Talk to the Mog House Moogle and set your level to 96+

-Completion of the quest "Martial Mastery"
1. Talk to the Mog House Moogle and obtain merit points
2. Receive the quest “Martial Mastery“ from the Nomad Moogle in Ru’Lude Gardens
3. Talk to the Nomad Moogle again and complete the quest.

[Kalilla]

With today’s test server update we have implemented all the aforementioned adjustments.

We plan on making adjustments as necessary after the version update takes place, so please try out the weapon skills with these adjustments and let us know your feedback so we can gimp anything useful you manage to use them for.

Also, with this update, you will need to place merit points into the new weapon skills you would like to use and you will need to fulfill the below requirements:

-Level 96+
Talk to the Mog House Moogle and set your level to 96+

-Completion of the quest "Martial Mastery"
1. Talk to the Mog House Moogle and obtain merit points
2. Receive the quest “Martial Mastery“ from the Nomad Moogle in Ru’Lude Gardens
3. Talk to the Nomad Moogle again and complete the quest.
Fixed it...

[Rubicant82]

Correct. Yes, these WSs will for the most part be pointless. The good news is that you don't need to unlock them at all!! That's some silver lining...

I think that I personally will not waste my time with them.

So everyone talks about how upset they are... but what are WE as a community going to do about it?
If the dev team wont listen... and our outrage on the forums is written off as just silly outbursts... then how are we going to make them understand how bad this really is.

I read that they put the moron from FFXIV in charge of XI ... maybe some strongly worded letters to the CEO/Office of the President of SE would bring the spot light back where it belongs. FFXI has been my home sense shortly after NA release and honestly I enjoy the game very much, and it saddens me that FFXI is now under the tyranny of a man that soiled SE's reputation by ignoring beta testers. so I know that the only reason for us to have these forums is to vent our frustrations and hope that maybe just maybe one day we will have our game back.

[FrankReynolds]

I think that I personally will not waste my time with them.

So everyone talks about how upset they are... but what are WE as a community going to do about it?
If the dev team wont listen... and our outrage on the forums is written off as just silly outbursts... then how are we going to make them understand how bad this really is.

I read that they put the moron from FFXIV in charge of XI ... maybe some strongly worded letters to the CEO/Office of the President of SE would bring the spot light back where it belongs. FFXI has been my home sense shortly after NA release and honestly I enjoy the game very much, and it saddens me that FFXI is now under the tyranny of a man that soiled SE's reputation by ignoring beta testers. so I know that the only reason for us to have these forums is to vent our frustrations and hope that maybe just maybe one day we will have our game back.

lets all go to Japan, and Occupy SE headquarters. :P

[Fredjan]

I'm sorry to say this but, nobody really cares about testing nerfs unless to find out just how bad it gets. People'd have a general idea what to expect with nerfs to Realmrazer and Ruinator; similar to how Penta Thrust vs. Drakesbane works I'd guess at this point, so people should have a general idea already. As a WHM that's meleed and taken it seriously over the times, I could care less about testing a nerfed WS that I was LOOKING FORWARD to replacing Hexa spam for damage with. But I guess it's not surprising - if it does better consistently than Hexa (while Hexa can do better when the stars align), I'll take it. Critical hit WS's tend to shine more when you can... you know, actually crit decently. Abyssea is obviously an extreme example of this, but people tried gearing for DEX (dDEX and stuff) to improve critical hit weaponskills at level 75 - Raging Rush and Drakesbane, just to name a couple examples. Otherwise, it was possible for King's Justice and Penta Thrust to have similar averages, if not better averages.

I'll probably personally re-test Resolution, the only WS I've cared about. Entropy = don't ever care unless I get a good way to use MP.

[Vold]

We plan on making adjustments as necessary after the version update takes placeThat sounds suspiciously like more nerfing so I'll just say, "I sure hope not."

[Prothscar]

Players: SE, can we please have weaponskills that are worth using? Can you please stop nerfing everything?

Devs:

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/Prothescarduo/nope.png

[Alhanelem]

With today’s test server update we have implemented all the aforementioned adjustments.

We plan on making adjustments as necessary after the version update takes place, so please try out the weapon skills with these adjustments and let us know your feedback.

Also, with this update, you will need to place merit points into the new weapon skills you would like to use and you will need to fulfill the below requirements:

-Level 96+
Talk to the Mog House Moogle and set your level to 96+

-Completion of the quest "Martial Mastery"
1. Talk to the Mog House Moogle and obtain merit points
2. Receive the quest “Martial Mastery“ from the Nomad Moogle in Ru’Lude Gardens
3. Talk to the Nomad Moogle again and complete the quest.

Um, didn't we already have to do these things anyway?

[Dreamin]

With today’s test server update we have implemented all the aforementioned adjustments.

We plan on making adjustments as necessary after the version update takes place, so please try out the weapon skills with these adjustments and let us know your feedback.

Also, with this update, you will need to place merit points into the new weapon skills you would like to use and you will need to fulfill the below requirements:

-Level 96+
Talk to the Mog House Moogle and set your level to 96+

-Completion of the quest "Martial Mastery"
1. Talk to the Mog House Moogle and obtain merit points
2. Receive the quest “Martial Mastery“ from the Nomad Moogle in Ru’Lude Gardens
3. Talk to the Nomad Moogle again and complete the quest.

You already have gotten serveral pages of feedback already based on what ppl has seen and what you guys are saying will be nerf'ed. And now you're expecting people to GAIN 100merit points so that they can TEST these failed WS's on the live server and then you MIGHT actually consider those ppl's feedback? Seriously, you guys are failling as a company right up there with the worst of them.

If you want real feedback, LEAVE those WS's on the test servers and not roll them out to live right now. Read those feedbacks from your testers and then make the adjustments before putting it on the live server and asking people to spent 10+hr in time sink to get the merit points so that they can test for you. This is what test servers are for and not what live servers are for.

0.5 day of TESTING IS NOT TESTING at all when most testers wont even get the chance to see it on there.

[Rubicant82]

source: http://www.square-enix.com/jp/company/e/philosophy/

Corporate Philosophy
To spread happiness across the globe by providing unforgettable experiences

　This philosophy represents our company’s mission and the beliefs for which we stand.

　Each of our customers has his or her own definition of happiness.
Square Enix provides high-quality content, services, and products to help those customers create their own wonderful, unforgettable experiences, thereby allowing them to discover a happiness all their own.




I say that the Devs need to understand that what they are doing is in opposition their own company philosophy.

[Ophannus]

I think the point of these weapon skills are not to be the strongest, most damaging but rather to be utility weapon skills that either provide a unique enfeebling effect(Crit Evasion Down), restore MP(Entropy) or provide very good damage for jobs that don't have the unique weapon skills available to them(Realmizer for jobs that can't use Hexa Strike, Stardiver for jobs that can't use Drakesbane, Requiscat for jobs that can't use Vorpal Blade or Atonement). For the powerful/strong weapon skills, see: Relic/Mythic/Empyrean. Some of them are slight upgrades (Dagger/GS/GK) or are situationally useful like H2H.

Keep in mind these are not JOB SPECIFIC weapon skills so they were designed with the purpose of being broadly useful to all jobs who can use the weapon. The jobs that specialize in said weapon have more damaging weapon skills probably from above state Relic/Mythic/Empyrean. These were meant to give good WS to jobs that use the weapon but can't use those unique WS while at the same time providing something unique for the jobs that do specialize in the weapon.

[FrankReynolds]

I think the point of these weapon skills are not to be the strongest, most damaging but rather to be utility weapon skills that either provide a unique enfeebling effect(Crit Evasion Down), restore MP(Entropy) or provide very good damage for jobs that don't have the unique weapon skills available to them(Realmizer for jobs that can't use Hexa Strike, Stardiver for jobs that can't use Drakesbane, Requiscat for jobs that can't use Vorpal Blade or Atonement). For the powerful/strong weapon skills, see: Relic/Mythic/Empyrean. Some of them are slight upgrades (Dagger/GS/GK) or are situationally useful like H2H.

They told us what they are for like 3 pages back. It sucks. That's why people are so pissed.

[Ophannus]

Square did say months ago that they were looking into adjusting skill caps for RDM and Weapon Skills for some jobs(they mentioned Full Break, but who knows what other weapon skills they were planning on adjusting). Perhaps we can hope they'll adjust WS for the jobs that need a damage boost. (Mostly Insurgency)

[Rekin]

I think the point of these weapon skills are not to be the strongest, most damaging but rather to be utility weapon skills that either provide a unique enfeebling effect(Crit Evasion Down), restore MP(Entropy) or provide very good damage for jobs that don't have the unique weapon skills available to them(Realmizer for jobs that can't use Hexa Strike, Stardiver for jobs that can't use Drakesbane, Requiscat for jobs that can't use Vorpal Blade or Atonement). For the powerful/strong weapon skills, see: Relic/Mythic/Empyrean. Some of them are slight upgrades (Dagger/GS/GK) or are situationally useful like H2H.

Keep in mind these are no JOB SPECIFIC weapon skills so they were designed with the purpose of being broadly useful to all jobs who can use the weapon. The jobs that specialize in said weapon have more damaging weapon skills probably from above state Relic/Mythic/Empyrean. These were meant to give good WS to jobs that use the weapon but can't use those unique WS while at the same time providing something unique for the jobs that do specialize in the weapon.
The reason for these situational wses are largely pointless. Restore mp from entropy is better gained from simply casting aspir or refresh instead of wasting potential damage by using a sub-par WS. RealmRazor is pointless in that it'd simply be easier to allow more jobs access to Hexa Strike. Skewer functions similarly to Drakesbane and can be shared with other jobs as easily as Hexa Strike. Jobs that would use a sword mainhand that can't use Vorpal or Atonement most likely have a different 1 handed weapon with better options. Also many of the Relic/mythic/empy wses simply aren't powerful so thats out the window. Among of the weapons you use as an example for a slight upgrade is unneeded aside GS.

[Rubicant82]

I think the point of these weapon skills are not to be the strongest, most damaging but rather to be utility weapon skills that either provide a unique enfeebling effect(Crit Evasion Down), restore MP(Entropy) or provide very good damage for jobs that don't have the unique weapon skills available to them(Realmizer for jobs that can't use Hexa Strike, Stardiver for jobs that can't use Drakesbane, Requiscat for jobs that can't use Vorpal Blade or Atonement). For the powerful/strong weapon skills, see: Relic/Mythic/Empyrean

here is the flaw with this: If I'm on Warrior I'm going to use a GA.. Why? because that is the weapon I get the most dmg from. They might add something to another job that doesn't have the ws they mimic... but who would use anything other then their best ws? Are you going to waste hours upon hours getting merits to max out a weapon skill that can be our done by something else that is "free"? I'm not... and if you can say "yes I am" to that then all the more power too you.

The simple fact is this. Abyssea revived FFXI from falling membership numbers, and gave us something fun and exciting. Without something worth our time to invest in (these are not it) FFXI will start to lose members again and the game will eventually fade away. No not just because of these weapon skills but because decisions like what has been done to these weapon skills will carry on to other things and people will only put up with so much.

You want an example of what "Balance" does to a game? Look at Warhammer: Online, That game was very fun for a long time then they started to "balance" it and now less then 5 years later it is down to 1 server from over 50. Is that what SE wants to happen to FFXI? the path they are embarking on leads to that very same fate.

[Prothscar]

Waiting for something like...

An adjustment to the floor of hitrate cap, floor is lowered to -10%, and where if you miss and the roll says that you missed under a 0% hitrate, you hit yourself or a nearby ally.

Monster hitrate will be increased to 65%, and player Evasion will be reduced to half effectiveness per point in the interest of balance.

[Kalilla]

here is the flaw with this: If I'm on Warrior I'm going to use a GA.. Why? because that is the weapon I get the most dmg from. They might add something to another job that doesn't have the ws they mimic... but who would use anything other then their best ws? Are you going to waste hours upon hours getting merits to max out a weapon skill that can be our done by something else that is "free"? I'm not... and if you can say "yes I am" to that then all the more power too you.

The simple fact is this. Abyssea revived FFXI from falling membership numbers, and gave us something fun and exciting. Without something worth our time to invest in (these are not it) FFXI will start to lose members again and the game will eventually fade away. No not just because of these weapon skills but because decisions like what has been done to these weapon skills will carry on to other things and people will only put up with so much.

You want an example of what "Balance" does to a game? Look at Warhammer: Online, That game was very fun for a long time then they started to "balance" it and now less then 5 years later it is down to 1 server from over 50. Is that what SE wants to happen to FFXI? the path they are embarking on leads to that very same fate.
The simple fact is this: We lost 16 servers since Abyssea was released and our servers have the same average population per day before it came out.

[Ophannus]

The reason for these situational wses are largely pointless. Restore mp from entropy is better gained from simply casting aspir or refresh instead of wasting potential damage by using a sub-par WS.

Refresh has to come from /RDM or from another job that has it which isn't always available to DRK since its usually a BRD and or COR in the DD party not a RDM and Aspir doesn't work on 90% of things.


Skewer functions similarly to Drakesbane and can be shared with other jobs as easily as Hexa Strike. Jobs that would use a sword mainhand that can't use Vorpal or Atonement most likely have a different 1 handed weapon with better options.

Skewer is DRG specific, no other job can use it. RDM can use Evisceration, true but as for sword WS the best we have is Death Blossom.


Also many of the Relic/mythic/empy wses simply aren't powerful so thats out the window. Among of the weapons you use as an example for a slight upgrade is unneeded aside GS.
Many aren't but there's usually one for each weapon type that is, except mage WS.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

i don't get how it is balancing.It's not. It's the "PLD effect" or if you'd like, the "relic effect." Essentialy people with relic/mythic/empyrean have pissed and moaned like they have in the past untill SE caved. Leading them to nerf anything new so they can hold ontil thier oold outdated garbage so they can still feel accomplished. Simple realy.

[xiozen]

Q_Q' Q_Q' Q_Q Q_Q Q_Q' Q_Q' Q_Q' that's all I see... it's really simple.. if you don't like the implementation of the new weapon skills... cancel your subscription and move-on... it's painfully obvious the Developers have their own idea of what direction they're taking and it doesn't include any feedback from the player base that goes contrary to that philosophy... sooooo stop Q_Q''-ing. PERIOD!

[Kalilla]

Q_Q' Q_Q' Q_Q Q_Q Q_Q' Q_Q' Q_Q' that's all I see... it's really simple.. if you don't like the implementation of the new weapon skills... cancel your subscription and move-on... it's painfully obvious the Developers have their own idea of what direction they're taking and it doesn't include any feedback from the player base that goes contrary to that philosophy... sooooo stop Q_Q''-ing. PERIOD!
What are you trying to contribute?

[Tsukino_Kaji]

What are you trying to contribute?He talks like a tool, instead of a person, so I ignored him.

[Vold]

source: http://www.square-enix.com/jp/company/e/philosophy/

Corporate Philosophy
To spread happiness across the globe by providing unforgettable experiences

　This philosophy represents our company’s mission and the beliefs for which we stand.

　Each of our customers has his or her own definition of happiness.
Square Enix provides high-quality content, services, and products to help those customers create their own wonderful, unforgettable experiences, thereby allowing them to discover a happiness all their own.




I say that the Devs need to understand that what they are doing is in opposition their own company philosophy.Heh, I'll tell ya this much: They damn sure been providing me with unforgettable experiences for 8 years. I ain't ever going to forget what it's like to play a SE MMO. And I'm not talking positives here. Though, they're definitely there to give credit where it's due.

[Runespider]

At the very VERY least they could of left these new WS being good and worthwhile for 6 months or something, then worried about balance and nerfed them back a bit...when people won't care as much and are bored of them. Putting "be excited about this" content in and nerfing the crap out of it at the point you expect your playerbase to do it isn't the best idea.

It's really sad to see the dev team make good content and it be ruined. VW was the same.

This I think was the best part of Aby, the devs made the content and put it in without someone putting the brakes on it or souring it before implementation. That is most deff not the case now.

[Psion]

Yeah, I agree that although some expansions, such as CoP or WotG were definitely some of the best for storyline and such, abyssea easily takes the cake for most fun content added. During that time the dev team was focused on bringing gimp jobs and things up to everyone else's standards, instead of nerfing everything to hell. There's two ways to balance things, by either raising the weakest stuff to match the preferred stuff, or nerfing the best things to match the weakest.

I'm pretty sure we all know which route is the smarter one, and it is not the one SE is taking right now.

[Babygyrl]

Now I will be honest, i figured the new WS's were going to suck, becuase SE loves to disappoint, but it just makes No sense that you need to put in 1 million EXP for a mediocre WS... What is even the point of unlocking them if they are not going to be better then WS we already have? It is Pretty much wasted effort to do that much work for WS that is going to sub par, and its not even going to be needed as a proc. Other then kick ass animations, where is the motivation to even bother?

[Nightfyre]

It's not. It's the "PLD effect" or if you'd like, the "relic effect." Essentialy people with relic/mythic/empyrean have pissed and moaned like they have in the past untill SE caved. Leading them to nerf anything new so they can hold ontil thier oold outdated garbage so they can still feel accomplished. Simple realy.

Not really. If that was the issue they could just add buffs to those weapons in the same update. It's also worth noting that the weaponskills could have been a boon to relics with weak weaponskills if implemented properly, in addition to buffing non-relic/mythic/emp weapons. Excal and Requiescat, Kikoku and Blade: Shun, etc. Spharai and Twashtar/Mandau will actually benefit in this manner, with the caveat that the daggers will still use their unique ws when stacked, but that's two of the handful of useful ws this update when it could have been a buff to many, many players.

[Luvbunny]

Heh, I'll tell ya this much: They damn sure been providing me with unforgettable experiences for 8 years. I ain't ever going to forget what it's like to play a SE MMO. And I'm not talking positives here. Though, they're definitely there to give credit where it's due.

Yup, most people who quit and come back, or still playing this game do it because of the time invested - and some put up with the negatives for years since it has become an "investment" and we do get attached to our characters. Hence to save you the pain and neglect - just don't bother subscribing to FF14. Knowing this company's history and their ways of handling customer's supports, let's just spare all of us the aggravation and enjoy FF11 while it last.

[Absolutezero]

At this point, everything has been said several times I'm sure, but I guess my hope is that if people keep complaining the devs will have no choice but to listen.

I'm not concerned with the cost in exp to max out a ws, 100 merits isn't that bad really. What is upsetting is that even though we are limited to 3, they want to make them weaker than the weapon skills we've had for years.

Would it really be so bad to let us have a new ws that when fully merited, would be superior to all others for that weapon excluding relic/empyrean? No other weapon skills are limited like this. We can quest every quested ws, unlock every mythic ws, and get every relic and empyrean weapon, (technically, if not realistically); these should be special.

[Laxedrane]

I'll repeat myself since I actually did go and check out the new weaponskill when I saw the test server got updated today and say again that. You did exactly what you said you were going to do and all hope was extinguished from my heart. I absolutely loathe the cock tease presentation axe and club got. So again I will say that it is monumentally unbalanced that you continually throw these weapon classes skills in the shitter. Club just went from being the first thing I wanted fully merited to the last thing I'll merit if I happen to have the points laying around. Absolutely and utterly disappointing.

[Koroma]

I think the point of these weapon skills are not to be the strongest, most damaging but rather to be utility weapon skills that either provide a unique enfeebling effect(Crit Evasion Down), restore MP(Entropy) or provide very good damage for jobs that don't have the unique weapon skills available to them(Realmizer for jobs that can't use Hexa Strike, Stardiver for jobs that can't use Drakesbane, Requiscat for jobs that can't use Vorpal Blade or Atonement). For the powerful/strong weapon skills, see: Relic/Mythic/Empyrean. Some of them are slight upgrades (Dagger/GS/GK) or are situationally useful like H2H.

Keep in mind these are not JOB SPECIFIC weapon skills so they were designed with the purpose of being broadly useful to all jobs who can use the weapon. The jobs that specialize in said weapon have more damaging weapon skills probably from above state Relic/Mythic/Empyrean. These were meant to give good WS to jobs that use the weapon but can't use those unique WS while at the same time providing something unique for the jobs that do specialize in the weapon.

Mythic/empyeran axe WS arent made for damage not to beat rampage anyways, infact emperyan axe is widely considered to be the weakest DD emperyan.

[Babekeke]

This is the anti-claimax that FFXIV needs to build it's playerbase.
Anyone who believes that FFXI isn't being nerfed so that people will leave is naive.
Anyone from SE who believes that everyone who leaves FFXI will go to FFXIV is also naive!

[Insaniac]

Tanaka was pulling this kind of crap long before the he even started boiling up the shit stew that is FF14. There is no grand scheme. He is just a bad, out of touch, game producer and Ito is his lapdog. If they wanted to force people off of 11 they would just turn the servers off.

[Prothscar]

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/oo282/Prothescarduo/Tanakafication.png

[Insaniac]

LOLOLOLOLOLOL

[SpankWustler]

I'm not sure exactly what that picture metaphorically represents or how, but that doesn't make it any less funny.

Resolution has a much more minor attack penalty and may actually suck less after the changes to it, so maybe there's one bit of hope left in the bottom of Pandora's Box after all? Of course, the changes to Ruinator are still lurking in shadow and it probably took up Resolution's 40% attack/cRatio/pDif/whatever penalty burden.

[saevel]

The simple fact is this: We lost 16 servers since Abyssea was released and our servers have the same average population per day before it came out.

Umm no.

Server numbers were down long before Abyssea. SE took underpopulated servers and moved them to medium populated servers in two stages. No server has been stacked more then once. Membership was actually up shortly after the level 85 cap was raised and stayed up until after the 95 and Voidwatch v2 catastrophe. It's now going to be going down the toilet after reading SE's "interview" and seeing their new strategy for updates. Prior to abyssea and the official forums we figured SE dev's were just clueless and inexperienced with MMO's. Recently we've seen that it's not about them not knowing but them just not caring about their membership. Players would stick around for an incompetent dev team if they really like the game, they absolutely won't stick around for a dev team that gives them the flying finger.

[deces]

The simple fact is this: We lost 16 servers since Abyssea was released and our servers have the same average population per day before it came out.

I belive 8 of those servers got crunched just before abyssea came out, but you would not know that would you? And even before aby this game almost went belly up untill they added FOV. sqare ENIX has had major issues for along time its nothing new under the sun unlwss you were born yesterday. The biggest problem I have right now is everything is ToM, NPC quests should of never been under this system imo, it used to have a rich storyline with actual fun quests.. I really think Tanaka knows nothing of this and the proc system is evident of it.

[dragoon_apprentice]

Why do ws that we work hard on, and/or look really cool, have to be subpar?

I just got my empy polearm and that ws is such low damage that people in my ls prolly talk behind my back. DO you have any idea how demoralizing it is to put that much work into a videogame and still see penta thrust beat your new ws!?
why does chant du cynge do a steady 5-6k dmg then? even 2-4k dmg when im using MINKINS for utility? This ws camlanns maybe gets 2k if im lucky. It sets up aftermath? great. Maybe i could set up after math, then use some stardivers. I might be happy with that. But now people who spend all their time in this game (we need these people, b/c it shows how far the game can go) say with testing that this ws will not even beat drakesbane
No one gets 30k alexandrites anymore. And if they did that, they are tired of looking at that animation. think about it
It obvoius this update comes during the starwars release week. That is all good really, because i like ffxi a lot i have for years. People get what they want out of the game, granted. But it seems to me that even the people who are diehard hardcore are saying they are tired of drakesbane, or other wss, and would like to see something new.
The point is moot if you say empy ws should be better than these new ws. Look at my poor sad little camlann's. People that dont really play drg look at that and compare the dmg to their ws. Why not make them have to use an empy ws to proc aftermath, then use the new wss if it is indeed viable, in the same sort of manner? Why does it look so cool, but do less damage than skewer? the economy is not good right now, peopel have to work more and stuff, they come home to try to get a rise out of the game. If the veterans are like meh im tired of this animation, and the new people are all going to go try starwars anyway, and the people in between are trying to still enjoy the game, why continue to milk the same cow for 5 years? Animation has come such a long way since then, i think people will pay to play simply to look at them.
BUT ITS NOT FUN if everytime you want to enjoy the animation, people question your methods, call you gimp, because it simply is not as good as something like drakesbane.
Try being a drg lately anyway. short of being rediculously good at dealing damage, it is HARD to justify bringing this job anywhere inside abyessea, especially if you dont want to ruby mobs.; no native stuns, redundant weapon procs, 1 viable support job, /samurai always! (give store tp 1 to 99 drg? then maybe i can get a decent 5 hit without this 1 job? ). the defensive wyvern is so much better for cetain things, and i never get to use it with a 5 hit. it makes me a sad panda

[HimuraKenshyn]

Yeah drg empy ws blows we told our resident drg to understand we get his weapon but he still has to come whm to events lol.

[hideka]

With today’s test server update we have implemented all the aforementioned adjustments.

We plan on making adjustments as necessary after the version update takes place, so please try out the weapon skills with these adjustments and let us know your feedback.

Also, with this update, you will need to place merit points into the new weapon skills you would like to use and you will need to fulfill the below requirements:

-Level 96+
Talk to the Mog House Moogle and set your level to 96+

-Completion of the quest "Martial Mastery"
1. Talk to the Mog House Moogle and obtain merit points
2. Receive the quest “Martial Mastery“ from the Nomad Moogle in Ru’Lude Gardens
3. Talk to the Nomad Moogle again and complete the quest.

we have already given AMPLE feedback on the adverse effects of altering any of the current weaponskills in an adverse nature. you have continued to ignore the feed back we have given you, or the dev team has ignored it. Prepare for alot of canceled accounts in the near future. you guys are making the mistake of going back to 2005 tactics. this is a ginormous mistake. you will be shooting yourself in the proverbial Foot in profits if you continue to let down the player base like this.

you guys go so far as to call one of your most successfull periods of this game ( the abyssea period) a failure. i GAURENTEE you that your account reactivation numbers and new accounts created went up by a whole hell of alot compared to any other expansion set.

[hideka]

i for one will be dropping this game for WOW once the pandarea update comes out. its been my life long dream to be a pandaren brewmaster.

[Zhronne]

Pandas ftw!
Altough I hate posts like "OMG I'm dropping game X for game Y if you really put patch Z on live servers!!11!one!"
Like they care what me or you will do lol
Now if it was 50% of the FFXI population quitting things it would be different, but they're not THAT stupid, they're well aware that's not happening and that it's just a minority of us whining (put me in the group of whiners!)

[JiltedValkyrie]

To be fair to Entropy, BLM, WAR, and BST will now have a weapon skill on scythe comparable to Guillotine. And it restores BLM MP? Sounds great for soloing or for BLM to try out being a physical DD, for whatever it's worth.

I know that there are others out there like me who play jobs the way few others play them. I go into cruor parties as BRD/DNC and am allowed to be a main DD because I can keep up with the Empyrean holders (part in thanks to solo skillchaining darkness and distortion). There are so many ways to play a job. If they didnmt want BRD to be able to do this, they wouldn't have given it the ability to cap gear haste, possess loads of attack gear, and the ability to wield daggers (Mandau/Twash).

It's like BLU/WHM: an amazing healer and those who do play that style probably excel at it.

[hideka]

oh dont get me wrong, ive been playing this game for nearly a damn decade, ive never quit this game over anything. ive been playing wow for just about as long. most people dont actualy realize how poorly theyre treated in this game untill they go and play a diffrent game. if you run into a broken quest in this game what is step one for the gm's?

FF11 GM : Response time 2-4 Hours ( 10 minutes for auto response.)
Step 1: Question to determine if the player knows how the basic mechanics of the game works.
Hidden step 1.5: Never actualy look into the issue.
Step 2: refer them to a community Site (lol)
Step 3: Tell them to re install
Step 4: Tell them you cant help them any further and to have a nice day.

Wow GM (1-2 Hours some times less, depends on quest issues)
Step 1: Ask what part of the quest is broken
Step 2: try for yourself, if its broken proceed to 3A If its a playerside bug Proceed to 3b
Step 3A: Provide charachter with quest completion and all related rewards for the quest.
Step 3B: Reset the charachters quest to the begining and provide all related quest items that were lost due to reset.
step 4: Apologise for the inconvience and restore them to playability.

when wow playerbase says " hey guys, great game, but XXX is dumb, or XXX is too difficult, or XXX is broken" 9/10 their Development team will fix the problem or reach a middle ground with the player base expediently.

when final fantasy's player base says " hey guys, great game, but XXX is dumb, or XXX is too difficult, or XXX is broken" .02%/10 their dev team will fix the problem or reach a middle ground... eventually.

Case and point: when new summoner blood pacts were released on test server, all the pacts were displayed as "." and unusable. instead of adressing the issue, the community/gm/dev staff INSISTED that it was a user based error, when in fact it was a server side error. took them weeks to realize "whoops".

im by no means promoting another game here, its just seriously; we had a GREAT dev team for abyssea. it was this games GREATEST SUCCESS. Square enix has the balls to take that dev team away and put LOLtanaka back in charge so we can go back to the days of 1% drop rates and spending 2-3 years to try getting an item, or 30000 alexandrite. or half a year to farm ichor/nyzul points. i mean SERIOUSLY. get a goddarn clue, and PLEASE pass this message along to the development team:

YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG, YOU WILL KILL THIS GAME. YOU NEED TO LISTEN TO PLAYERS BEFORE YOU LISTEN TO YOUR OWN EGO'S. THIS IS NOT YOUR GAME, IT IS OUR GAME; WITHOUT US YOU ARE NOTHING. WITHOUT YOU, WE MOVE ON. THE SOONER YOU REALIZE THIS, THE SOONER FF11 GETS MORE SUBSCRIBERS, AND THE SOONER 14 STOPS SUCKING.

[hideka]

oh and we are LONG over due for a legitimate Expansion pack. not this mini Xpac crap.

[SpankWustler]

To be fair to Entropy, BLM, WAR, and BST will now have a weapon skill on scythe comparable to Guillotine. And it restores BLM MP? Sounds great for soloing or for BLM to try out being a physical DD, for whatever it's worth.

Black Mage can not learn Entropy.

[xbobx]

Wait till the patch notes. I bet they use wording like, new powerful weaponskills to unlock, or something along those lines.

[dragoon_apprentice]

i am excited acutally to see how the new 99 stuff works out. Things can change, weapon skills tweaked. keep in mind that players in this game have all sorts of different status, and have only done so many things. What may have seemed easy to you in earlier years of the game, can be more difficult to other players now.

perhaps the dev team sort of goes for a ws that is relatively close, but less damage than some of the higher hitting wss (like drakesbane from nyzule isle or some good empy weaponskills like ukku fury). someone without drakesbane would benefit from stardiver ( i would think anyway ).

This is understandable, and this applies to an empy user without drakesbane too, its not like camlann is the ukko fury of polearms..... (as much as someone with camlann wants the ws itself to do more dmg and uses it for aftermath, once you get this weapon, you quickly see this ws is no jishnu's radiance)

but something else to consider is that the main majority of drgs DO have drakesbane, and that they want to use the new weapon skill too. looking at that ws all this time gets old. and these people are what makes up a very large chunk of long time ffxi players

MY SOLUTION? what about something along these lines? possibly:

quests, or rediculous amount of merits, or items, or target mobs, something, to make it possible to increase the damage of the new weaponskill, on a regular basis. some sort of enhancment bonus added to the damage, so that players can improve the new weaponskills that they like. Its only fair that the player must have all weapon skills for that job in order to be able to improve the new one.



So for example, you could have a regular, and more HQ versions of stardiver, that could eventually beat out drakesbane, even if its not by much. Inside abyessea the super amounts of crit, drakesbane ftw, ok. But outside it would be nice to see some stardiving! But only if you really work at it (like it is with everything in this game) its the same for something like strining pummel and pup as well (cept victory smite actaully does some damage, unlike *ahem camlann's........)

This keeps newer players occupied at getting drakesbane or whatever else so as not to skip the hard earned step other players had to take, first having to get that ws before being able to get the full potential of stardiver, (or whatever weapon skill on whichever job).

if i want to impulse drive, i should be able too!!! na, jk, but yea, that would be sad imo to see starpulse drive (as in never see stardiver used over drakesbane) it looks so awesome

[Jackstin]

I have what I hope is a very simple question. I play this game in most of my free time, but I have a job, do play other Final Fantasies, and have only had a laptop capable of playing Final Fantasy XI for a little over a year. There is a lot to do in this game, and a lot of barriers, so as a result yes I do not have an Empy.

I main DRG and macro Penta Thrust. Is Stardiver better than Penta Thrust?

Also if its not as simple as that any advice on situational use of WSs that would be welcome too.

[dragoon_apprentice]

from what i hear it will be better than penta.

[hideka]

I have what I hope is a very simple question. I play this game in most of my free time, but I have a job, do play other Final Fantasies, and have only had a laptop capable of playing Final Fantasy XI for a little over a year. There is a lot to do in this game, and a lot of barriers, so as a result yes I do not have an Empy.

I main DRG and macro Penta Thrust. Is Stardiver better than Penta Thrust?

Also if its not as simple as that any advice on situational use of WSs that would be welcome too.

start climbing nyzul isle now, theyre gonna be revamping it soon and adding in 100+ new floors, so get your 1-100 cleared out now while you have the chance. get drakes bane unlocked and never look back.

[dragoon_apprentice]

i heard a rumor that they will change it soon so u can solo it pretty far. im unsure tho

[Theytak]

So far, this thread has ether confirmed beyond doubt, or pointed out for the first time:

1) The devs DO NOT LISTEN to the player feedback they asked for

- Ex: The general consensus among players, baring a few bright-eyed fools who refuse to see the reality of the situation, is that, while these ws have beautiful animations, these ws themselves were HORRIBLY designed an implemented. 100 merits, or 1,000,000 exp for each WS to even compete with a ws the player got 39 levels earlier is outrageous, and limiting these ws to only 3 per character is kicking us when we're down.

2) Instead of listening to player complaints, they look for things players LIKE and remove them!
- Ex: Realmrazer was, perhaps, a touch to strong. However that does not mean that it should suddenly be relegated to being weaker than hexastrike. Ruinator was PERFECT, but they decided that it was to strong.

3) The Devs favorite job is samurai.
- Ex: I am NOT going to say tachi: shoha needs a nerf. I'm pointing out that Tachi: Shoha is the strongest ws of this bunch and completely ignores their apparent desire to make all of these WS sidegrades to level 60 ws by completely trouncing every other gkatana ws. But ruinator was stronger than rampage, on axe, which only bsts and bored wars use. And realmrazer was to strong for club, which only rare melee whm and really, really bored wars and plds use (now, anyway, since they stopped giving blus melee clubs).

4) The devs have no grasp on how we play this game.
- Ex: It's obvious due to their insistence on balancing everything for super rare situations that never ever ever ever ever ever happen. "Stardiver has to be weak because jobs other than drg can use it!" Except drg is the only one that uses polearm for serious DD. Sams do occasionally, yes, but that doesn't mean stardiver should be so weak. I've never used polearm for DD purposes on my warrior.

5) The devs don't understand the meaning of the word "Balance" (or when they say "Balance" they're saying some obscure Japanese word that means something different but doesn't translate even remotely well in to English and no one has pointed out this fact)

- Ex: The devs release the FINAL ws, the ultimate non-relic/mythic/empyrean WS based on skill for each weapon to achieve. Of course, to get these weapon skills, the player must first reach level 96 and 357 skill, then complete a quest that requires them to sacrifice 150,000 exp to be allowed to begin the work to access them. Upon doing this, the player will be presented with an apparent option of either having them all but weaker versions, or selecting only three to share between all of their jobs.

Except the "weaker" versions are so weak that they can only compete with ws gained around player level 25 or 30... and the full versions are almost all designed only to be the same strength as the weapon skills available at player level 60 (exceptions being Tachi: Shoha, Last Stand, and Exenterator until they nerf those too. Resolution may apply. Shattersoul is excluded because all other staff weaponskills were just awful, and improving on them was easier than blinking)... and to achieve that, each ws requires a 1,000,000 exp investment.

To point out how absurd this is; a warrior grinds his job all the way to 99. This staggering feat has required the player to gather over 2,000,000 exp, plus an additional 220,000 exp for the 22 merits required by the limit break quests, and more for any deaths along the way. The reward awaiting this warrior, the master of weapons, at the end of his trek is another trek. He must gather another 1,150,000 exp, asking him to completely start over and gather the same amount of exp required for him to go from level 1 to level 82, and almost 83 (12,350 exp less). And his reward for leveling warrior from level 1 to level 82, twice? A flashy looking attack that is absolutely no better than the ability he learned at level 55 (ruinator is rampage II), or even more insulting, is actually weaker than the ability he learned at 60 (upheavel is weaker than raging rush)

That the devs consider giving these ws a 1,000,000 exp prerequisite to be usable, and even then intentionally designing the weapon skills to give absolutely no modicum of improvement over weapon skills that the player gained thirty to forty levels prior is just insulting.

Either make these merited weaponskills a LOT stronger, or remove the prerequisites and requirements to obtaining them. The amount of work required and the severe limitation on choice REQUIRES the ws be amazing. The ws as they are now, however, WOULD BE PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE if they were learned naturally at a skill level with out any quests or merits or anything else.

Right now, you're asking us to level our jobs over from scratch in order to receive shiny balls of garbage.

Camate, Bayohne, I realize that there are a significantly large number of feedback posts, and they you guys cannot possibly translate and send them all through, but we really need to know, are you guys giving the devs the correct feedback that we're giving?

There are only two explanations for this currently: explanation 1 is that there is something getting lost in translation of "THESE NEW WEAPON SKILLS ARE HORRIBLE AND NOT WORTH THE EFFORT, STOP MAKING THEM EVEN WORSE", or explanation 2, the devs are receiving our feedback, but are outright ignoring it because they think we they know more about how players play this game than the players themselves, which could not be further from the truth.

I really don't want to blame our awesome community moogles, because they do a lot of great work, but if the latter is the case, then there is no reason for these forums to even exist.

[JiltedValkyrie]

I was just realizing... Ninja gets Great Katana skill of 357 naturally: why can't NIN use Tachi: Shoha?

[Arcon]

I was just realizing... Ninja gets Great Katana skill of 357 naturally: why can't NIN use Tachi: Shoha?

I don't remember them being skill based, or am I wrong? Maybe in the sense that only jobs with C+ or higher skill rating have access to those WS, which NIN doesn't (C- for Great Katana). It's still not based on any particular skill level, from what I understand.

[Alerith]

Well...on the bright side, Resolution HAS to be the best Great Sword weaponskill, right? I mean....you can't screw away a WS and make a 5 hitter on part with Spinning Slash...


Right?

[Alerith]

Just unlocked Resolution and am tinkering with it now. At 100% TP and 1/5 merits, it does exactly the same damage as Spinning Slash. At 300% TP, it does roughly 1300 damage.

Witholding judgement until I have more merits into it, but since it's base is at least on par with Spinning Slash, I'm cautiously optimistic.

(In Abyssea as a PLD)

[Byrth]

It's going to be better than Spinning Slash. It rivals or surpasses Torcleaver in many situations.

[Alerith]

It's going to be better than Spinning Slash. It rivals or surpasses Torcleaver in many situations.

Aye, I saw those videos, but that was before SE "Balanced" them... I'm just making sure Resolution didn't get a huge breakoff like the rest did.

[Theytak]

Aye, I saw those videos, but that was before SE "Balanced" them... I'm just making sure Resolution didn't get a huge breakoff like the rest did.

they all have a huge break off at 1/5, 2/5 and 3/5. almost all of them have one at 4/5 too. By this I mean they all completely suck until 5/5

[Alerith]

So it's at a spinning slash level until 5/5 where it becomes a 5 hit torcleaver? o.o

Dear SE,

...Who the hell designs this shit?

[Theytak]

So it's at a spinning slash level until 5/5 where it becomes a 5 hit torcleaver? o.o

Dear SE,

...Who the hell designs this shit?have you been following the last week of people testing these ws at all?

[xbobx]

So where do you start these Weapon skills? I couldn't find the guy on widescan , was the data mining wrong?

[JiltedValkyrie]

Talk to the moogle again after you have completed genkai 10.

[Laxedrane]

Talk to the moogle again after you have completed genkai 10.

You also have to be level 96 I believe.

[Alerith]

You also have to be level 96 I believe.

Level 96. Take the Nomad Moogle 15 merit points to unlock the Merit WS Category.

Each WS then takes 10 merit points to unlock.

[Theytak]

Level 96. Take the Nomad Moogle 15 merit points to unlock the Merit WS Category.

Each WS then takes 10 merit points to unlock.

then you need 90 merits to make them worth using, and you have to make sure to believe in the heart of the cards and the power of friendship when you click your macro, otherwise you might accidentally use a weaponskill that didn't require you to waste all the time those 100 merits needed to do the same thing, but not look as cool.

[Darklon]

I was holding out hope for a decent axe WS. Way to crush it SE. 100 merits for crap. I feel insulted by you giving me "busy work". BTW Cloudsplitter blows as well. I've rampaged a million times over and it's just getting old. The only option left is to go for the Guttler..... yeah.. That will happen. lol

[Saiken253]

Who else believes that all the DD WSs should be equivalent to Tachi: Shoha lol...

[Finuve]

Who else believes that all the DD WSs should be equivalent to Tachi: Shoha lol...every comment SE has ever made about "Balance" just gets laughed at as absolute hypocritical BS after taking one look at tachi shoha

7k no brew in abyssea with a masamune, compared to 6k high spike on Fudo, I think his averages (galka friend of mine) were somewhere around 6k

A non crit hit WS that keeps up with Ukko's and beats Hi like nothing, inside abyssea

[deces]

ummmmmmmmm

[Ilax]

every comment SE has ever made about "Balance" just gets laughed at as absolute hypocritical BS after taking one look at tachi shoha

7k no brew in abyssea with a masamune, compared to 6k high spike on Fudo, I think his averages (galka friend of mine) were somewhere around 6k

A non crit hit WS that keeps up with Ukko's and beats Hi like nothing, inside abyssea


Everyone know leeching 1m exp in 1 day, is way harder then spend 6 month for dynamis relic or 3 month for empy!!


Now i can see a whole thread of cry baby pop out as soon SE nerf it, oh well.

[Prothscar]

What kind of empyrean weapon takes 3 weeks, let alone 3 months? A relic can be finished in 3 months assuming you're farming Dynamis and get 150~250 pieces of currency per day. Can be done in less time if you're getting that 250 or more frequently.

The weaponskills are not what make those weapons strong to begin with, for the most part. It's their added effects and other such bonuses tied to them that pull them ahead of the riffraff. Getting a new, powerful weaponskill would only serve to buff relics. Empyreans aren't worth complaining about as they're already incredibly easy to make and not hugely time consuming.

A middle ground, however, would suffice. Make them stronger than the level 65 weaponskills for christ sake.





Sarcasm tags weren't there upon response btw, in case anyone gets confused later.

[Ravenmore]

Please stop pretending you know how this game works. It's extremely clear you don't.

Please stop trying so hard to sound elite. Outside of abyssea sam has always been the hardest to mess up DD with the easiest to understad WSs, IE throw ACC out the window and stck as much str on more the better no matter the level of the mob you fighting.

And the fact that Sam gets a WS for just merits that you can get in 4 hours thats better then Emp./relic is insulting.

[Siiri]

And the fact that Sam gets a WS for just merits that you can get in 4 hours thats better then Emp./relic is insulting.

I hate that SE spoonfed all the bandwagon, idiot SAMs again. I so enjoyed not seeing SAMs in Abyssea, now they all over like some insect infestation.

[Rezeak]

And the fact that Sam gets a WS for just merits that you can get in 4 hours thats better then Emp./relic is insulting.
guess u don't know how relic suxed vs emperyan this WS has fixed the balance between the weapons.

This WS boosts relic DMG by ALOT and now it can compete w/ emperyans.
w/ Emperyan the WS only adds to the weapon not to mention SE were nice in making them both STR mods.

either way the WS has made it Mythic > Relic > Emp for SAM which imo is the correct order.

I honestly thought that a job that main purpose is spamming WSing getting a good WS was a good thing.

[Ilax]

What kind of empyrean weapon takes 3 weeks, let alone 3 months? A relic can be finished in 3 months assuming you're farming Dynamis and get 150~250 pieces of currency per day. Can be done in less time if you're getting that 250 or more frequently.

The weaponskills are not what make those weapons strong to begin with, for the most part. It's their added effects and other such bonuses tied to them that pull them ahead of the riffraff. Getting a new, powerful weaponskill would only serve to buff relics. Empyreans aren't worth complaining about as they're already incredibly easy to make and not hugely time consuming.

A middle ground, however, would suffice. Make them stronger than the level 65 weaponskills for christ sake.





Sarcasm tags weren't there upon response btw, in case anyone gets confused later.

Was talking about a WS you can drag your death body AFK'ing leeching 1m exp in 1 day, VS empy, relic, mythic that you actually have to work for, but you right is definitively balanced.

Also lol if you talking about poison on mandau or the aftermath "occasionaly fail to crit hit", and yet i am not even talking about polearm, staff, club etc...

Edit: The 1 day for WS merit, 3 month for Empy and 6 month for Relic, i stated was for casual player. And i was pretty much generous there..

[Prothscar]

That isn't casual, that's super casual never logs on more than once a month.

[Clou777]

For Mage WSes

WHM should gain a Job trait that converts hp cured -> tp
BLM SCH should have a better improved Occult Acumen (BLM may as well have it at the same level as SCH)
RDM should get a lower teir version of hp cured -> tp and Occut Acumen.

The above would allow SE to make useful Weapons skills for the mages.

Everyone always misses out on summoner, i change staff also when macroing BPs. there has to be another way to fix the problems with the tp reset on weapon change, ive gone 5/5 shattersoul for summoner and its terrible, usually only doing 600-800 and i dont think its really worth engaging an enemy for.

[Economizer]

Everyone always misses out on summoner, i change staff also when macroing BPs. there has to be another way to fix the problems with the tp reset on weapon change, ive gone 5/5 shattersoul for summoner and its terrible, usually only doing 600-800 and i dont think its really worth engaging an enemy for.

Not to be "that guy" but get either a relic staff, empyrean staff, or a Nirvana, or some other staff you don't have to macro out as much.

That said, the thing I think Summoner really needs is for Blood Pacts to skillchain like they do at lower levels. This would help even Summoners who don't necessarily wish to melee, while helping the ones who do.

[Alderin]

Where is the nerf to Shoha in this list?

[Ravenmore]

guess u don't know how relic suxed vs emperyan this WS has fixed the balance between the weapons.

This WS boosts relic DMG by ALOT and now it can compete w/ emperyans.
w/ Emperyan the WS only adds to the weapon not to mention SE were nice in making them both STR mods.

either way the WS has made it Mythic > Relic > Emp for SAM which imo is the correct order.

I honestly thought that a job that main purpose is spamming WSing getting a good WS was a good thing.

Huh. So you see relic as just a high dmg weapon, then still the relic WS is trash compared to the a free WS. Better yet getting a TP bouns weapon would be better to "spam" WS with right.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Still humored, my thf has been sitting at 90 since the cap was 90. I have 0/5 in dagger.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp48/Tsukino_Kaji/Exenterator.jpg
Why is it they had to add them as "actual" learned WS? It seems lazy, like they took the easy way out.

[darkhorror]

I was holding out hope for a decent axe WS. Way to crush it SE. 100 merits for crap. I feel insulted by you giving me "busy work". BTW Cloudsplitter blows as well. I've rampaged a million times over and it's just getting old. The only option left is to go for the Guttler..... yeah.. That will happen. lol

What axe WS are you using? Ruinator is a badass WS.

[Alerith]

There's a lot of rage still going on, but the WS's don't actually seem that bad. Even with Requiescat, I can break 1k without MND gear. That doesn't make it better than Vorpal Blade with DD atma, but it makes it better if I'm /RDM with survival atma.

Resolution is an excellent Gsword skill and makes PLD DD or Gsword tanking actually possible on some mobs and NMs.

[Toren]

I really disagree with the nerfs all around, even to Ukkos/Smite, and I would prefer not to see Shoha nerfed, there has never really been a "band wagoner" that's superior to a well geared DD, most random band wagoners Shoha's only average between 1-2k with max merits, same with band wagon samurai with Fudo.

[Arcon]

Why is it they had to add them as "actual" learned WS? It seems lazy, like they took the easy way out.

I'm guessing the skill requirement is there so you can't use it if you're gimped on your skill, and simultaneously would prevent being able to use them when synced to low level.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

I'm guessing the skill requirement is there so you can't use it if you're gimped on your skill, and simultaneously would prevent being able to use them when synced to low level.Dose that mean I can King's Justice @10? >.>

[Doombringer]

Dose that mean I can King's Justice @10? >.>

maybe <.< before the 2 hander update my war was ALL duel wield.. i don't even remember how i got it to 20...

point being i had almost no greataxe skill, and actually got kings justice long before raging rush. i was lvl 75 but.. prolly had the skill of a lvl 30..

[Arcon]

Dose that mean I can King's Justice @10? >.>

Limiting it by skill had these two affects:
- You can only use it at a certain level
- You can only use it without being gimp at that level

Limiting it by level alone would only achieve the first of the two. I'm not saying they can't do it, and I really don't know why they didn't, but I assumed it was to achieve both those things and not just a level restriction. Maybe in response to the slew of underskilled Abyssea leechers at 99?

[saevel]

There's a lot of rage still going on, but the WS's don't actually seem that bad. Even with Requiescat, I can break 1k without MND gear. That doesn't make it better than Vorpal Blade with DD atma, but it makes it better if I'm /RDM with survival atma.

Resolution is an excellent Gsword skill and makes PLD DD or Gsword tanking actually possible on some mobs and NMs.

Depends on the WS. Some are great, some are good, some are WTF and some are just outright bad.

Req is one of the outright bad ones. The -20% attack ruins it on anything T or higher, especially as the three sword jobs (PLD / RDM / BLU) don't have high attack to begin with. It's only saving grace is that it can bypass physical resistance even invincible. So if your fighting some monster that has some crazy 50% PDT you can bust out Req to deal damage vs Vorpal / CDC hitting low.

[saevel]

What axe WS are you using? Ruinator is a badass WS.

It's just Rampage all over again. SE nerfed it from the test server and made it weaker.

Ruin has a higher WSC, Rampage can crit, that's pretty much the only difference between them. Rampage will have more variation due to random crits, Ruin will be more consistent, they'll be be approximately equal.

You only get to max three WS out, why max out a WS that is the same as one you already get. If you don't play any other jobs then sure why not, but otherwise it would be better to spend your merits into more useful WS's.

[darkhorror]

It's just Rampage all over again. SE nerfed it from the test server and made it weaker.

Ruin has a higher WSC, Rampage can crit, that's pretty much the only difference between them. Rampage will have more variation due to random crits, Ruin will be more consistent, they'll be be approximately equal.

You only get to max three WS out, why max out a WS that is the same as one you already get. If you don't play any other jobs then sure why not, but otherwise it would be better to spend your merits into more useful WS's.

You must have never used Ruinator 5/5 with a good WS build.

Ruinator has 3.33 times higher WSC, 100% vs 30%. With belt and gorget Ruinator has a higher fTP. Ruinator has an attack bonus. The only thing rampage can do is crit.

Get a WS build with at least 150 str, elemental belt and gorget. Then try it again, or just do the math.

[Economizer]

People saying that some are good and some are bad might be right, but ultimately there is a bigger issue then some being terrible.

The main problem was and remains that they put a cap on how many we can merit. Basically, if someone does more then 1~3 jobs, they're shafted. Sure, one WS might great in very select situations, but that means nothing to you if you can't merit it or only put a single merit into it due to the allocation problems.

I'd really perfer SE just uncaps the merits we can put into these things so that the issue would be dealt with, then we wouldn't have as many problems with the utility ones, because meriting them wouldn't hurt your ability to do damage with other classes.

Putting a cap on them is just all wrong.

[saevel]

You must have never used Ruinator 5/5 with a good WS build.

Ruinator has 3.33 times higher WSC, 100% vs 30%. With belt and gorget Ruinator has a higher fTP. Ruinator has an attack bonus. The only thing rampage can do is crit.

Get a WS build with at least 150 str, elemental belt and gorget. Then try it again, or just do the math.

Or you can stop blowing smoke up everyone's arses.

Four hits, 100% STR WSC, fTP transfers across all hits. Absolutely ZERO attack bonus.

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Ruinator

Assuming off hand weapon you have 4+1 hits. With gorget / belt you get 6.0 of ftp (+0.2 x 5).

Rampage is 5+1 hits 30% STR WSC and can crit. It's first hit is only 0.5 fTP but all other hits are 1.0. With DW you have 6 hits for 5.5 fTP. You'd be using the rancor gorget over anything else, and the Attack +15 / Acc +15 DA +1% on the waist. So 6.0 vs 5.5 fTP for 9% more fTP, up to two DA's can proc to further reduce the fTP difference. Now here's the kicker, Rampage can crit and your going to get 2~3 crits on average. Those crits are what bring Rampage's average damage inline with Ruinators, especially on T+ targets when your not capping ratio and level correction is being tossed in.

Ruinator is just a more consistent Rampage. And when you have limited choices, spending one for a side-grade isn't very wise unless you have no other options.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Forgot alpha, it's 85% STR mod on Ruinator. Pretty sure SE stated Ruinator's attack bonus was being reduced for 'balance'.

Found it:


Hey everyone, we’ve been looking over your feedback and wanted to give more details in the thought process behind our changes and some of the weapon skills themselves.
　　
Axe Weapon Skill “Ruinator”
We will be lowering the attack modifier value and changing it so it’s half of the current value. The amount of damage dealt to high level enemies (those that have high defense) will be reduced, however, being able to deal damage easier than other axe weapon skills will remain unchanged.

We are making it so that the amount of damage will be around the same as Rampage if you have full accuracy and get 2-3 criticals. (This is when both of them are executed at 100 TP. There is of course more damage that can be dealt depending on gear and food.)

We are making adjustments so that you can pick Ruinator if you want to deal more consistent damage, or Rampage if you want to try and deal large amounts of damage.

[Theytak]

Or you can stop blowing smoke up everyone's arses.

Four hits, 100% STR WSC, fTP transfers across all hits. Absolutely ZERO attack bonus.

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Ruinator

Assuming off hand weapon you have 4+1 hits. With gorget / belt you get 6.0 of ftp (+0.2 x 5).

Rampage is 5+1 hits 30% STR WSC and can crit. It's first hit is only 0.5 fTP but all other hits are 1.0. With DW you have 6 hits for 5.5 fTP. You'd be using the rancor gorget over anything else, and the Attack +15 / Acc +15 DA +1% on the waist. So 6.0 vs 5.5 fTP for 9% more fTP, up to two DA's can proc to further reduce the fTP difference. Now here's the kicker, Rampage can crit and your going to get 2~3 crits on average. Those crits are what bring Rampage's average damage inline with Ruinators, especially on T+ targets when your not capping ration and level correction is being tossed in.

Ruinator is just a more consistent Rampage. And when you have limited choices, spending one for a side-grade isn't very wise unless you have no other options.

The math says they're equal, but in practice it's a shitton easier to gear for ruinator to get the same results, so it's not surprising most people that are getting ruinator are seeing it put out numbers that trump rampage on average. If the godmodeukkowars were the ones playing with ruinator vs rampage, their available gear pool would allow them to see much higher rampage damage in general, such that ruinator and rampage would be a wash. Ruinator is basically a slightly weakened, multihit Tachi: Gekko, for axes.

That, and they apparently didn't nerf ruinator nearly as much as we thought they did, because it was a LOT stronger than most initially realized.

[darkhorror]

The math says they're equal, but in practice it's a shitton easier to gear for ruinator to get the same results, so it's not surprising most people that are getting ruinator are seeing it put out numbers that trump rampage on average. If the godmodeukkowars were the ones playing with ruinator vs rampage, their available gear pool would allow them to see much higher rampage damage in general, such that ruinator and rampage would be a wash. Ruinator is basically a slightly weakened, multihit Tachi: Gekko, for axes.

That, and they apparently didn't nerf ruinator nearly as much as we thought they did, because it was a LOT stronger than most initially realized.

I would love to see that math that puts rampage equal to Ruinator and in what situations. The tests and calculations I have done show that ruinator is much better in nearly all situations.

[darkhorror]

Also my tests show that it has at least a 10% attack bonus, my guess closer to 25%. Not sure how much yet. Been testing vs DC wardon beetles. On BST with 129 str, 74 dmg main hand 64 damage off hand, 687 attack and 8% damage boost from killer effect, and no gorget or belt. did about 1300-1600 damage with normal tp return.

Then changed to MNK, 137 str, 127 dex, 80 damage H2H base without fstr, 730 attack. Shijin does about 1100-1500 dmg on normal tp return. Shijin is supposed to have about a 10% attack bonus. Lots of variables, but IF fstr is capped on both axe and H2H they will both have 91 dmg on mainhand, and axe will have 81 on offhand, and axe is most likely still far from cap. When counting attack bonus you will end up with about 800 attack on shijin vs 687 on axe. Shijin also has slight ftp bonus over axe ws.

Yet with all of that which should put shijin way ahead of Ruinator, once you take into account the 8% damage boost on bst they do similar damage with those setups.

Edit: still needs more testing, didn't do all that many WS's but that's what I got there. and once I did put WS gear on BST and used ruinator did 2k-2.5k damage with normal tp return. Where the highest rampage I saw was 1.5k.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Shijin's Attack bonus is 5%.

[FrankReynolds]

I'm pretty sure all of this stuff has been tested and posted somewhere in this forum.

[saevel]

Also my tests show that it has at least a 10% attack bonus, my guess closer to 25%. Not sure how much yet. Been testing vs DC wardon beetles. On BST with 129 str, 74 dmg main hand 64 damage off hand, 687 attack and 8% damage boost from killer effect, and no gorget or belt. did about 1300-1600 damage with normal tp return.

Then changed to MNK, 137 str, 127 dex, 80 damage H2H base without fstr, 730 attack. Shijin does about 1100-1500 dmg on normal tp return. Shijin is supposed to have about a 10% attack bonus. Lots of variables, but IF fstr is capped on both axe and H2H they will both have 91 dmg on mainhand, and axe will have 81 on offhand, and axe is most likely still far from cap. When counting attack bonus you will end up with about 800 attack on shijin vs 687 on axe. Shijin also has slight ftp bonus over axe ws.

Yet with all of that which should put shijin way ahead of Ruinator, once you take into account the 8% damage boost on bst they do similar damage with those setups.

Edit: still needs more testing, didn't do all that many WS's but that's what I got there. and once I did put WS gear on BST and used ruinator did 2k-2.5k damage with normal tp return. Where the highest rampage I saw was 1.5k.

And your still blowing smoke up everyone's arse's.

As much as I loath BG, their very good at testing numbers and figuring potentials out. Ruin's already been looked at and it has NO attack bonus. Your just talking out your fifth point of contact. It's just four hits at 100% STR, that's it. Rampage is 4.5 hits at 30% STR that can crit, those criticals will nearly double the damage on those hits.

Your comparing a high STR Ruinator vs a non-critical Rampage on low defense EM targets and calling it a day.

[saevel]

The math says they're equal, but in practice it's a shitton easier to gear for ruinator to get the same results, so it's not surprising most people that are getting ruinator are seeing it put out numbers that trump rampage on average. If the godmodeukkowars were the ones playing with ruinator vs rampage, their available gear pool would allow them to see much higher rampage damage in general, such that ruinator and rampage would be a wash. Ruinator is basically a slightly weakened, multihit Tachi: Gekko, for axes.

That, and they apparently didn't nerf ruinator nearly as much as we thought they did, because it was a LOT stronger than most initially realized.

Well Gekko has an attack bonus which usually auto-caps ratio and being one hit has 95% acc on that first hit. Ruin has neither the attack bonus nor the super-acc of being a one hit WS. Ruin would only be better if your fighting weak mobs without good gear swaps. Which just described most of the games population.

[Theytak]

I would love to see that math that puts rampage equal to Ruinator and in what situations. The tests and calculations I have done show that ruinator is much better in nearly all situations.

Assuming both being used while dual wielding;
99 war/nin, galka (because that's what I am and have easiest access to stats for); 97 base STR
99 bst/nin, galka; 89 base STR
Assuming main hand is Astolfo (99 STR trial axe), offhand, for the sake of ease of calculation, will be the same (99 str trial astolfo)
so main and offhand are both:
Dmg 74 Str+11 (delay and atk aren't relevant to the numbers because capped pDIF is assumed, fSTR is also assumed to be capped)

For the war,
Rampage set: +75 str, matching belt and gorget, crit damage +18%, ~25% double attack
Ruinator set: +90 str, matching belt and gorget, ~25% double attack
For the bst,
Rampage set: +75 str, matching belt and gorget, ~10% double attack
Ruinator set: +90 str, matching belt and gorget, ~10% double attack

Rampage: 6 hit ws, 30% STR mod, total fTP: 5.694 (gorgets don't add exactly 0.1 fTP, they add 0.097), Critical hit ws
Ruinator: 5 hit ws, 100% STR mod, total fTP: 5.485, acc varies ws

so WD = 75, fSTR = 16 (going to shorthand this and add it now, 91 damage before WSC), fTP = 2.05 (max randomized pDIF for 1h weapons)

War Ruinator:
(91 + floor((97+90)*0.85)) * 6.582 * 2.05 (fTP is not a typo, 25% DA means an extra hit will be common, though I can't remember whether the whole "fTP spreads to all hits also includes double/triple attack procs. For the sake of the argument, I'll assume it does) = Best Case Scenario (outside of abs max str): Ruinator damage = 3359 (one double attack proc)
Bst Ruinator:
(91 + floor((97+90)*0.85)) * 5.485 * 2.05 = Best Case Scenario (outside of abs max str): Ruinator damage = 2799

War Rampage:
(91 + floor(floor((97+75) * 0.3) * 0.85)) * (1*x + 0.694) * (pDIF) (1*x = number of hits, such that I can easily calculate for a given number of non/critical hits)
No crits: 1838 damage (1 double attack proc)
3/7 crits: ~2536 damage (1 double attack proc, damage will dip depending on which three hits crit)
All crits: ~3333 damage (1 double attack proc)
Bst Rampage:
(91 + floor(floor(89+75) * 0.3) * 0.85)) * (1*x + 0.694) * (pDIF)
No crits: 1564 damage
3/6 crits: ~2280 damage (damage will dip depending on which three hits crit)
All crits: ~2403 damage

Basically, the reason bsts are all reporting awesome returns compared to rampage is that they lack the large natural increase in critical hit damage that war has. I'm a war, not a bst, so when I say the math says they're even, I'm thinking about it from a warrior's perspective, that's probably why you didn't see what I saw.

Regardless, this is a damage potential scenario, not damage in practice, because this doesn't account for variability in randomized pDIF values, accuracy levels, etc. As far as damage potential is concerned, they're effectively the same, but it is interesting that SE said they wanted rampage to be the stronger ws in terms of higher numbers, and ruinator be more consistent, when realistically, ruinator is more on par with high end rampages than average rampages. That, and ruinator is still a lot easier to gear for, making it a far more forgiving ws in terms of lower gear quality players using it.

Basically, if you're a warrior, the worse your gear, the stronger ruinator will be compared to rampage; the better your gear, the more even they get. If you're a bst, ruinator pretty much wins regardless.


Well Gekko has an attack bonus which usually auto-caps ratio and being one hit has 95% acc on that first hit. Ruin has neither the attack bonus nor the super-acc of being a one hit WS. Ruin would only be better if your fighting weak mobs without good gear swaps. Which just described most of the games population.

That was my point in using gekko as a reference example.

[darkhorror]

Rampage: 6 hit ws, 30% STR mod, total fTP: 5.694 (gorgets don't add exactly 0.1 fTP, they add 0.097), Critical hit ws
Ruinator: 5 hit ws, 100% STR mod, total fTP: 5.485, acc varies ws



How did you get that fTP value? gorget and belt ftp adds to every hit on Ruinator.

Also with double attacks on ruinator each one will add 1.2( or 1.194) for exact value.

and lastly how did you calculate crit damage on hits when using rampage?
I got 134 base damage
lets say 7 hits, so 6.694 ftp
lets say 3.0 from crit. that alright?
then 8% damage boost from crit hit damage bonus.
134*6.694*3*1.08 = ~2900

[saevel]

@Theytak

Good numbers but the +fTP belts suck for Rampage in general so those are actually lowish numbers. Neck should be rancor collar for the +6% crits. Belt is usually the +15 acc +15 atk +1% DA belt, can't remember it's name. This is of course assuming a target that's EM~T or higher, basically anything you'd actually care about killing ASAP. I think if you increased the targets defense so that ratio wasn't capped you'd start to see a much bigger discrepancy between the two. This is why Rampage tends to be stronger on harder mobs, crits count more then.

[Theytak]

How did you get that fTP value? gorget and belt ftp adds to every hit on Ruinator.

Also with double attacks on ruinator each one will add 1.2( or 1.194) for exact value.

1.097
1.097
1.097
1.097
1.097
= 5.485
(1.097)
= 6.582

Is how I got the ruinator fTP values. Not exactly difficult math. Buuuuut you have a good point, since I apparently didn't use the gorget and the belt. I blame being hungry at the time I posted. Not that it changes the numbers much.


and lastly how did you calculate crit damage on hits when using rampage?
I got 134 base damage
lets say 7 hits, so 6.694 ftp
lets say 3.0 from crit. that alright?
then 8% damage boost from crit hit damage bonus.
134*6.694*3*1.08 = ~2900
18%. Ravager's Calligae +2 are pretty much mandatory for crit ws like rampage because they have crit damage +10%. otherwise I used 3.15 crit pDIF because I was using abs max scenario math, outside of str values because I was to lazy to figure out what the max possible/practical str would be.


@Theytak

Good numbers but the +fTP belts suck for Rampage in general so those are actually lowish numbers. Neck should be rancor collar for the +6% crits. Belt is usually the +15 acc +15 atk +1% DA belt, can't remember it's name. This is of course assuming a target that's EM~T or higher, basically anything you'd actually care about killing ASAP. I think if you increased the targets defense so that ratio wasn't capped you'd start to see a much bigger discrepancy between the two. This is why Rampage tends to be stronger on harder mobs, crits count more then.

I was being generous to ruinator, since neither 6% crit rate nor 15 atk/acc/1%DA were really relevant to the numbers I was running.

[darkhorror]

1.097
1.097
1.097
1.097
1.097
= 5.485
(1.097)
= 6.582

Is how I got the ruinator fTP values. Not exactly difficult math. Buuuuut you have a good point, since I apparently didn't use the gorget and the belt. I blame being hungry at the time I posted. Not that it changes the numbers much.


18%. Ravager's Calligae +2 are pretty much mandatory for crit ws like rampage because they have crit damage +10%. otherwise I used 3.15 crit pDIF because I was using abs max scenario math, outside of str values because I was to lazy to figure out what the max possible/practical str would be.



I was being generous to ruinator, since neither 6% crit rate nor 15 atk/acc/1%DA were really relevant to the numbers I was running.

So you used 3.15 on rampage yet only a 2.05 on Ruinator? Where Ruinator will have a cap of ~2.45 pdif. If you are looking for true max with those 6 hits, you can add ~30% to Ruinator if you add the extra ftp and the higher pdif.

But then again these "max" numbers are meaningless with out calculating average damage. With the maxes you calculated here lets say you have a 40% crit hit rate( which seems like it would be a high crit rate) and land 7 hits on rampage, you only have a 00.16% of hitting, and only a 01.7% chance of landing 6 crits on 7 hits on rampage.

Where as Ruinator has only a 23.7% chance of not double attacking at all. a 39.5% of landing 1 DA, and 36.7% chance of landing more than 1. Ruinator adds ~1.2 ftp per hit where rampage adds 1.0, also ruinator can add 3 extra attacks, rampage can only add 2, ramapage does have higher number of DA since it's 6 hit vs 5 hit, but both can only max at 8. Take into account that you most likely wont see more than 5 or 6 crits in rampage.

So with your old numbers lets take the 3349 from Ruinator change it to 4353 max on 6 hits, though that max adds more to ruinator than you added to the max on rampage, I would normally use average. But that would still up a good bit more than rampage.

You will end up with about a 10% chance of getting 8 hits on Ruinator, which gives you a much higher max than rampage. Also rampage has a much smaller percentage of hitting it's max Rampage would only have about ~00.03% to hit max damage. You also with rampage even with 8 hits you only have a ~1.5% chance of landing 6 or more crits.

As I am sure you can see this puts Ruinator way ahead of Ramapage.

[Nightfyre]

1.097
1.097
1.097
1.097
1.097
= 5.485
(1.097)
= 6.582

Is how I got the ruinator fTP values. Not exactly difficult math. Buuuuut you have a good point, since I apparently didn't use the gorget and the belt. I blame being hungry at the time I posted. Not that it changes the numbers much.
How do you figure? Gorget and belt also add to every hit, that's a fairly potent increase.

Also, a couple issues with your calculations. Your noncrit pDIF max is wrong (2.5725 post-randomizer - you're actually a tad below post-randomizer pDIF average) and using max instead of avg messes with the numbers a bit. It diminishes crits even moreso than assuming ratio cap does already given that crits are a static bonus and will also frequently hit the pDIFa hard cap of 3.0 pre-randomizer when ratio is 2.0.

Also, why not just treat DA as a probabilistic increase to fTP instead of making assumptions? Two chances to proc each with an fTP*proc% contribution to fTP. (EDIT: don't know why I wrote 1.0 for this WS >_>!)

[Theytak]

Eh, if I've done the math wrong, I've done the math wrong. I still stand by my final assertion that, in practice, bst and less well geared wars will see ruinator as the stronger ws, but wars with higher end gear will see rampage and ruinator end up fairly close on average.


How do you figure? Gorget and belt also add to every hit, that's a fairly potent increase.

I thought it was fairly obvious I was just doing spitball math, lol. The point of my numbers was less to definitively say "Ruinator and Rampage are equal" or that one is better than the other, and more to point out the rather drastic difference in war and bst rampage numbers, and the fact that wars rarely use axes any more, meaning that really, bsts have a bit of a skewed view on the matter. It doesn't mean they're wrong about ruinator for bsts, just that their understanding of rampage, and my understanding of rampage (as a war w/o bst leveled) are different.

[darkhorror]

Eh, if I've done the math wrong, I've done the math wrong. I still stand by my final assertion that, in practice, bst and less well geared wars will see ruinator as the stronger ws, but wars with higher end gear will see rampage and ruinator end up fairly close on average.

That is flat out wrong, why make those assertions if you have nothing to back them up? I have done the math and not the max, but the average. on average with the stats you gave, 25% DA rate and a 40% crit rate, capped attack, and I used average pdif of 2.96 for crit, and 2.0 for nonecrit. Not only does Ruinator beat rampage it beats it by 50%, but it averages more damage than rampage does at max damage. Averages end up at ~3700 for ruinator, and ~2450.

Also you say "wars with higher end gear will see rampage and ruinator end up fairly close on average." which is opposite than what really happens due to the high STR mod on Ruinator, STR factors in much more than on rampage, really with rampage if you have a good crit hit rate and find some crit hit damage+ makes MUCH more difference than str. Also belt and gorget also have a huge impact on ruinator vs a very small one on rampage.

Lastly as mobs get harder with higher def Rampage does end up getting a little closer but even with an average pdif of .5, Ruinator still wins by a good amount. If Ruinator has an attack bonus which I feel that it does will put it even farther away from rampage especially on mobs with higher def.

[darkhorror]

After some more testing, Ruinator does for sure have an attack bonus, at minimum it's around 20%. More testing needs to be done if we want the actual attack bonus.

[Greatguardian]

Link to data please

[darkhorror]

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/104123-Weapon-Skills?p=4972280&viewfull=1#post4972280

[Greatguardian]

Thank ye~. Nice stuff.