[dev1049] New weapon skills

[Prothscar]

i assume it can double atk while still being categorized as "elemental dmg" is what they are saying

the atk penalty, is it possible to be explained due to its unique trait of being elemental? not even sure how to verify something like this but it sorta reminds me of formless strikes (in that it sucks even on some mobs that are phy res)

That makes relatively no sense as it doesn't really count as elemental damage. Requiescat is calculated exactly the same way as any normal physical weapon skill, it just has an additional property similar to Twilight Scythe.

[brayen]

That makes relatively no sense as it doesn't really count as elemental damage. Requiescat is calculated exactly the same way as any normal physical weapon skill, it just has an additional property similar to Twilight Scythe.

well its elemental dmg going by SE terms that is why i use quotation marks, i don't think they have a name for "twilight scythe dmg" ;p
and that is exactly what i am saying, that extra property prolly taking away atk and the ws is giving more atk with tp...sorta ass-backwards reasoning to make it like that but it is the only thing i can think of. its the only reasoning i can come up with short of being bugged which they have yet to admit to so *shrug* till then its "working as intended" and im just trying to rationalize it. hope that makes more sense, not really arguing the results or anything really lol

[Bayohne]

Sorry about that - edited the original post for clarity: "Considering that players can use attack boosts and double attack effects to enhance damage (edited at 12:28pm PST), we decided that an adjustment was unnecessary."

[brayen]

and there now it makes more sense!

[Prothscar]

Yeah makes more sense now, thanks. Essentially it's a weaponskill only to be used against elementals and things with resistance against physical damage such as those. :\

[brayen]

could still be worth putting merits into it for those rare rare occassions ...if nothing else anyways for those w/o empy WS

Sad to see club being nerfed tho

[Quetzacoatl]

Realmrazer was perfect until this came long.

*facepalm*

[Prothscar]

Also, can BLU get some actual clubs that aren't lv75 Wands so we can make use of Realmrazer?

[Amador]

After testing, we concluded that there is a need to lower the damage dealt by the club weapon skill Realmrazer. We'll be making adjustments so that Realmrazer is the strongest club weapon skill for jobs that cannot learn Hexa Strike.

We also concluded that there is no need to increase the damage dealt by the H2H weapon skill Shijin Spiral and the sword weapon skill Requiescat. (The adjustments for the katana and great sword weapon skills were made to fix the difficulty of dealing damage against stronger opponents.)

Shijin Spiral has an attack boost effect, so it can effectively deal damage to stronger opponents. Thus, we decided that there was no need for adjustment. Also, please keep in mind that its modifiers are DEX and not STR.

Since Requiescat has no element, it’s an effective weapon skill against monsters that are immune to physical attacks. Considering that players can use attack boosts and double attack effects to enhance damage (edited at 12:28pm PST), we decided that an adjustment was unnecessary.

We’ll make the above adjustments in the next version update and will look into implementing further adjustments following the version update as necessary.

Seriously? Hexa Strike is your idea of balancing? Why?

A level 220 Combat Skill - Level 67 minimum Job Requirement Weapon Skill should have a greater power over a level 96 357 Weapon Skill? Please tell me this is just a troll and a typo. This is redundant.

If the idea of these new weapons is to simply be WEAKER than what a job already has, why has the Dev Team WASTED their time on them? As well as our time in testing, simply to make them weaker than something at 220?

This is just ridiculous, I can understand you being interested in weakening it slightly. However, why not just make it WHM and BLU exclusive? Why bother having given Warrior the ability to use 9 out of 14 WSs? This in itself needs balance if you feel you need to destroy this WS for Club and Jobs that aren't over powered and broken.

Hexa Strike - 6 hit - 1.0 fTP 20% STR 20% MND, this piece of crap is supposed to be better? Really?

This mind set the Dev team has on something like that is a huge let down. You want to consider Abyssea a failure? These new WS are starting to look like a HUGE failure. Just delete them, and buff all level 58-67 WS. This way we can all use Tanaka's Rage WS of: Sidewinder, Skewer, Hexa Strike, and let's not forget Gekko!

This is truly a joke.

Realmrazer: 7 Hit WS - 20-100% MND. <- It's about looking forward into the FUTURE OF FINAL FANTASY. Not looking back into it's monotonous past.

This is why your post has no likes Bayohne!

[Economizer]

You don't need a White Mage Tarutaru to tell you what's going on.


Requiescat is fine. But since you won't stop complaining we're gonna tell you why we think its fine. On an unrelated note, we're gonna nerf the other WS that Blue Mages and Paladins can get, and piss off White Mages too. If you'd like to speak up again go ahead, this is a forum for feedback. On an unrelated note, that's a mighty nice weapon skill you have for Daggers... you wouldn't want anything to happen to it right?

[Greatguardian]

I'm more surprised that Tachi: Shoha, the absolutely plum-broken WS that shits all over the Empyrean and Relic GKTs, hasn't been nerfed yet.

Don't get me wrong. I don't mind having a super badass GKT WS. I'm just sorta in my corner shaking my head as the Devs nerf all the crappy, broken WS even more while leaving the strongest alone.

[SpankWustler]

I feel like this thread is in desperate need of one of spankwustler's explanations as to the thought process of the devs.

"We saw the giant insects again last night. Nobody was on anything and we weren't in the same room. We saw them anyway. Got calls from each other about it, same thing all around.

They asked about logs. They asked about ore. They seemed unsatisfied. They seemed hungry. Maybe they eat sadness. Maybe they peel off human skin and eat that instead. Hard to tell; they don't have mouths. Ten feet tall, some of the things, and still can't see what's at the back of the pincers. Tried not to look hard, anyway.

I told them about Requiscat. Another guy told them about Shijin Spiral. Ever heard a giant ant chortle? Ever seen how the middle bit of a praying mantis moves when it giggles? It's kind of like, like...you know dried seaweed, right? Imagine if that stuff was moving with the tides instead of living seaweed. It's kind of like that.

Some poor intern told them about Realmrazer. He's...not...He's still here but he's not really here anymore. He's just not."

[Unleashhell]

After testing, we concluded that there is a need to lower the damage dealt by the club weapon skill Realmrazer. We'll be making adjustments so that Realmrazer is the strongest club weapon skill for jobs that cannot learn Hexa Strike.

We also concluded that there is no need to increase the damage dealt by the H2H weapon skill Shijin Spiral and the sword weapon skill Requiescat. (The adjustments for the katana and great sword weapon skills were made to fix the difficulty of dealing damage against stronger opponents.)

Shijin Spiral has an attack boost effect, so it can effectively deal damage to stronger opponents. Thus, we decided that there was no need for adjustment. Also, please keep in mind that its modifiers are DEX and not STR.

Since Requiescat has no element, it’s an effective weapon skill against monsters that are immune to physical attacks. Considering that players can use attack boosts and double attack effects to enhance damage (edited at 12:28pm PST), we decided that an adjustment was unnecessary.

We’ll make the above adjustments in the next version update and will look into implementing further adjustments following the version update as necessary.


The sword weaponskill is terrible though. Its not worth meriting....

[Chriscoffey]

I'm more surprised that Tachi: Shoha, the absolutely plum-broken WS that shits all over the Empyrean and Relic GKTs, hasn't been nerfed yet.

Don't get me wrong. I don't mind having a super badass GKT WS. I'm just sorta in my corner shaking my head as the Devs nerf all the crappy, broken WS even more while leaving the strongest alone.
You are surprised they haven't nerfed something on Samurai.... dude you have to be joking.

[Karbuncle]

Seriously? Hexa Strike is your idea of balancing? Why?

A level 220 Combat Skill - Level 67 minimum Job Requirement Weapon Skill should have a greater power over a level 96 357 Weapon Skill? Please tell me this is just a troll and a typo. This is redundant.

If the idea of these new weapons is to simply be WEAKER than what a job already has, why has the Dev Team WASTED their time on them? As well as our time in testing, simply to make them weaker than something at 220?

This is just ridiculous, I can understand you being interested in weakening it slightly. However, why not just make it WHM and BLU exclusive? Why bother having given Warrior the ability to use 9 out of 14 WSs? This in itself needs balance if you feel you need to destroy this WS for Club and Jobs that aren't over powered and broken.

Hexa Strike - 6 hit - 1.0 fTP 20% STR 20% MND, this piece of crap is supposed to be better? Really?

This mind set the Dev team has on something like that is a huge let down. You want to consider Abyssea a failure? These new WS are starting to look like a HUGE failure. Just delete them, and buff all level 58-67 WS. This way we can all use Tanaka's Rage WS of: Sidewinder, Skewer, Hexa Strike, and let's not forget Gekko!

This is truly a joke.

Realmrazer: 7 Hit WS - 20-100% MND. <- It's about looking forward into the FUTURE OF FINAL FANTASY. Not looking back into it's monotonous past.

This is why your post has no likes Bayohne!

Level ~67 WHM Exclusive Club WS you gain from Natural leveling, Being Better than a level 99 Merited WS you have to dump about 100 Merits into?




inb4 i'm banned, but seriously, this is the most retarded thing I've ever heard. Who's going to blow 100 Merits on something designed to be weaker than other weaponskills?




Non-White Mages? But if the issue is that White Mage should get a better weapon skill... perhaps they should buff Hexa Strike for White Mages at higher skill levles or give White Mages another WS learned at a higher skill while keeping Realmrazer the same...


Oh yeah, Makes perfect sense for all those Club-Heavy DD's out there to want this. Oh wait... o-o

[Coldbrand]

HURRRRR THE NEW WEAPONSKILLS ARE BALANCED BECAUSE THEY'RE BETTER FOR JOBS THAT SHOULDN'T EVEN BE USING THOSE WEAPONS ANYHOW! IT ESPECIALLY MAKES SENSE FOR STARDRIVER SINCE IT HAS A DRAGOON JUMP IN IT YOU GUYS.

[Prothscar]

Have been waiting for you to come in here with that picture. ilu

[Economizer]

This is why your post has no likes Bayohne!

Please don't shoot the messenger. I think the poor Moogles already have to deal with the dev team trying to eat their poms. I imagine their salary doesn't even include Kupo Nuts!


Some poor intern told them about Realmrazer. He's...not...He's still here but he's not really here anymore. He's just not."

I was hoping you'd accept my explanation, but I suppose being a White Mage Tarutaru isn't enough... I'd have to have the onion haircut too.


Who's going to blow 100 Merits on something designed to be weaker than other weaponskills?

Non-White Mages? But if the issue is that White Mage should get a better weapon skill... perhaps they should buff Hexa Strike for White Mages at higher skill levles or give White Mages another WS learned at a higher skill while keeping Realmrazer the same...

[Neisan_Quetz]

Awesome, I now relegate Resquiescat to Spirits/Atonemont 2.0, only it might be situationally useful if you dump 100 merits into it.

Thanks for nerfing club, I have no clue what to merit after GA/Sword now. Maybe I'll just go level Sam after all.

[FrankReynolds]

Who the hell clicked the like button on this dumb ass nerf?

[Insaniac]

I wonder how the people that spent weeks animating these WSs feel about the fact that most of them will never be used.

[Sparthos]

Wow a nerf on Realmrazer? Really?

Jeez SE, why did you bother animating these new WS when you're gonna cut them all off the knees before they even go live? Who the hell cares about Hexa Strike? Any self-respecting WHM DD was going to upgrade to Realmrazer anyway.

There was no balancing issue here.

[Byrth]

On the test server, in the Weapon Skills merit category, the heading above the WSs is "Group 1." If "Group 2" is something inventive that allows weaponskill power-ups (like merit points that give a critical hit rate bonus to the WSs), then these could end up being the most powerful weaponskills in the game still.

[Amador]

Please don't shoot the messenger. I think the poor Moogles already have to deal with the dev team trying to eat their poms. I imagine their salary doesn't even include Kupo Nuts!



I was hoping you'd accept my explanation, but I suppose being a White Mage Tarutaru isn't enough... I'd have to have the onion haircut too.



Non-White Mages? But if the issue is that White Mage should get a better weapon skill... perhaps they should buff Hexa Strike for White Mages at higher skill levles or give White Mages another WS learned at a higher skill while keeping Realmrazer the same...

I would expect the messengers to also have a reply button that goes to the dev teams that says: You're doing it wrong.

At the very least have some degree of insight, to say "Hey, this is going to piss of the community bro. You really want these NW's to be comparable to level 58-67 crap? Wut?

[Greatguardian]

I wonder how the people that spent weeks animating these WSs feel about the fact that most of them will never be used.

This is my biggest concern.

Someone obviously put a lot of time and heart into these skills. It shows. They're gorgeous.

Why spoil all of that hard work by making the WS weak?

[Deadvinta]

Seriously, can we have the Devs take about five minutes from developing to read this thread themselves? Whatever the moogles are telling them, they aren't getting the message (at no fault of your own, guys, I promise).

[Greatguardian]

Seriously, can we have the Devs take about five minutes from developing to read this thread themselves? Whatever the moogles are telling them, they aren't getting the message (at no fault of your own, guys, I promise).

Without meaning any disrespect to them, I highly doubt the Devs are able to read English at a high enough level (especially when including internet slang and colloquialisms) for them to actually read anything in the English forums firsthand.

English is taught in schools in Japan, but there's a reason even most JP players prefer to stay in their own language. There's a huge gap between knowing enough to pass an exam and being able to communicate with English speaking people regularly. Even the Zam/Elmer interviews are done in bilingual settings.

[SpankWustler]

Whatever the moogles are telling them, they aren't getting the message (at no fault of your own, guys, I promise).

In order to communicate fully with the FFXI development team, someone would need to think like the development team.

Imagine a world where up is down. Is down up? No. Down is an egg sandwich. Except when it's not. Sometimes down is a bittersweet memory of a pet turtle you had when you were seven. Sometimes down isn't down, as in the towards-the-center-of-the-earth down, just the word "down" but it actually means "left". Left is usually an anteater.

Even having the mindset down, this individual would need to learn a written language composed entirely of crude drawings of people being crushed by large kitchen appliances. Mostly stoves, for some reason. If not speak, the individual would at least need to understand a spoken language composed entirely of guttural noises. Every one of which imitates the passing of flatus.

No language that currently existed when FFXI was created could convey some of the development team's ideas properly and they had to make a new one, you see.

[Olor]

seriously?

http://images.wikia.com/sonicfanon/images/3/31/RainbowDash4.png

#facepalm

[Amador]

All of this nonsense about thinking like the dev team or not is simply that. Nonsense.

They want us to test and evaluate their product the answer is: No, your current idea and direction this REALLY COOL PRESENTATION, is starting to suck. Therefore we do not like your product, please revise your mistake.

Please do not gimp the Club WS, or any other WS for that matter. Please focus on MAKING THEM BETTER SO THAT WE CAN USE THEM <--- This. Auto-Translate Can I have It?

I mean really devs, messengers, random moogles. Why can't you simply send these ideas in a nice little Microsoft Outlook message that says: Guys, the community really hates this. Can you reevaluate? We need something to make them not rage right now.

What you did was you showed us a really cool product, you made us think wow that'll be hot and amazing. We "tested" it, down to a mathematical level and found that they suck. BUT WE HAVE ASKED YOU TO MAKE IT BETTER BECAUSE WE LIKE IT.

Your response: No we need to make it weaker! Think of poor Hexa Strike! <-- Really sit down and evaluate what you're doing here. It's really not right. You are wrong. Please fix it, not break it further to the point where your next year census says no one merited that WS.

We want to like your product, help us like it more. So you can have our Clink-Clink.

[Vold]

I'm very disappointed about the club WS nerf. I was hearing such great feedback that I already started to regear my warrior for a perma club set up, and I was considering doing the same for my THF NIN SAM DRK BRD BST and RNG afterwards.

[Fredjan]

I suppose Realmrazer'll end up being an answer to people that wanted Hexa Strike though. I was looking forward to a Hexa Strike upgrade myself, but oh well.

[Economizer]

I wonder how the people that spent weeks animating these WSs feel about the fact that most of them will never be used.


This is my biggest concern.

Someone obviously put a lot of time and heart into these skills. It shows. They're gorgeous.

Why spoil all of that hard work by making the WS weak?

Even beyond that, they put a cap on how many points you could put into merits!

Nobody who really plays this game is going to merit all of the weapon skills due to the 15 point cap. If balance is really an issue, just make it harder to merit more then 15 at one time, not impossible!

We should be able to merit all the WS even if doing that requires one thousand times the work that meriting only three of them does!


Wow a nerf on Realmrazer? Really?

Jeez SE, why did you bother animating these new WS when you're gonna cut them all off the knees before they even go live? Who the hell cares about Hexa Strike? Any self-respecting WHM DD was going to upgrade to Realmrazer anyway.

There was no balancing issue here.

Perhaps there is a balancing issue. I can totally respect the dev team if they want White Mage to be better at Club WS then other jobs. Perhaps this is what they are thinking.

Of course, then the ideal solution would be to buff Hexa Strike for high level White Mages or give White Mages an even more advanced club WS. Perhaps anyone meriting the weapon skill gets an advanced version if they have a certain job? It doesn't even have to be cosmetically different from a WS that the WS already has if that would put it into the realm of not being implemented.


I'm very disappointed about the club WS nerf. I was hearing such great feedback that I already started to regear my warrior for a perma club set up, and I was considering doing the same for my THF NIN SAM DRK BRD BST and RNG afterwards.

The Moepapa Mace was starting to shoot up in price on my server... I wonder how many people bought one?

[saevel]

Sorry about that - edited the original post for clarity: "Considering that players can use attack boosts and double attack effects to enhance damage (edited at 12:28pm PST), we decided that an adjustment was unnecessary."

Except it's a percentage reduction not a static reduction. So any attack boosts are themselves reduced. If you want to make it weaker then reduce it's WSC or knock a hit off it or something similar, don't put a permanent percentage reduction to attack. Even if the WS deals neutral damage it would still be weaker then Vorpal / CDC in virtually every scenario. We don't go around meleeing slimes.

[Unleashhell]

Who the hell clicked the like button on this dumb ass nerf?

Prolly someone that doesn't use those weapons.

[Unleashhell]

I think the devs got hit in the head with that big ass star from the Magian Moogle too many times....

[Vold]

The Moepapa Mace was starting to shoot up in price on my server... I wonder how many people bought one?Well I was saying what I said to be sarcastic because I don't feel any job other than WHM is going to care about the new club WS. I suppose other magey jobs who might want to melee time from time could use but like it's not a stretch to say WHM is supposed to be a melee of sorts anyway. It's common for the "white mage <insert equivalent in other games>" job/class to wield a hammer and be a decent melee for screwing around. Even if this WS did 10,000 damage everyone that could use it would find it very hard to put down their cool great axes katanas daggers swords and so on to wield a club like they're a cave man or something. People would probably stfu and do it but they won't like it.

Looking at that one you mention though made me do a double take when I checked it's stats because I keep hearing about it. Before I didn't really think it was all that great. Kind of like, what a piece of crap how is that worth what's it's worth. Then just now I see that dmg on it and it's like, bloody hell, really? It's like if in the next update we got a AH dagger with 71 dmg on it. Say wha? Holy shit. I think they should be upping 1h damage like that anyway because it's getting a bit silly being the level we are at right now and will be soon and weapon base damages have barely increased while 2h is shooting through the roof.

[Kalilla]

I remember starting this game when it came out for NA and trying to figure out what job I wanted to be. I tried Warrior, it seemed easy enough to get to 30 so I did. I later tried other jobs after reaching 30 on WAR until I found WHM.

WHM was great, very easy to get a party and was quite fun for me. I didn't love WHM until a party in Crawler's Nest. Why there? Well, my party was grinding off of crawlers and lizards for a few hours. Then this WHM came up and used Hexa Strike in front of our group and I stopped what I was doing and was awestruck.

I never thought the same way about WHM ever again, and other job possibilities instantly went away. I wanted that WS, and worked hard to get it (as I of course wasn't skilling up club at all). When I finally was able to use it, everything changed. I no longer was interested in a mage WHM anymore, melee was where the fun was at for me. I didn't care about other melee jobs, of course they are going to be good at melee. WHM was something different, a challenge in itself to kick some butt.

I won't ever forget how I felt seeing that taru use hexa and finally getting the message that said I had access to hexa strike. As great as those memories are Square Enix, that was eight years ago. There has not been a WS since then that has overcome Hexa. The next WS after that that WHM's started using a lot was Mystic Boon... 4-5 years ago. Yea, it is just to replenish MP but it changed WHM melee. Even with MB there has not been a Damage ws that has replaced Hexa since, and this isn't only for WHM. There are many jobs that have always used the same WS's for years and years and years!

We all crave for something new to replace these WS's that we have grown bored of, but understandably there wasn't room during the level 75 cap. With the level cap rise gave plenty of room and amazing hope that there would be weapon skills to replace these that are great, but we have grown bored with.

SE you have essentially failed on this. You made these WS's and promised us that we would look forward to them. You gave us power, even WHM, and took it away from us. I was concerned myself that this WS would be given to other jobs and maybe other jobs would be more powerful than WHM ever could be with a club. That didn't matter to me, as always I was never concerned about what other jobs did in dmg. That isn't why WHM's even melee to begin with. So what if a PLD will be able to beat WHM in dmg now, I don't care! If I wanted to be a PLD and melee I would be, but I love WHM.

You essentially teased us and took something we have wished for 8 years away from us. I'm beyond disappointed, I have nothing else to look forward to meriting in this update. I play DNC sometimes, but I won't be focusing merits into dagger just like I'm no longer focusing on club now. I'll get the WS in time, but this just crushed me hard.

To me this is like you giving us Afflatus Solace with Orison Bliaud +2 to give stoneskin to party members then changing it to regen because it's too powerful.

[Theytak]

Camate, Bayohne, please be honest with us. Are the devs actually listening to anything we're saying, or are they just smiling at our feedback, appreciating that we're giving it, and then tossing it in the trash to do something else entirely because the players can't possibly know more about their game and how it's balanced than they do?

Because the players are a lot more well informed about how poorly balanced this game is, and thus far, the devs are only making it worse. Tell them that if they feel any of the new WS need to be weakened, the only acceptable answer is Tachi: Shoha, because it's stronger than the 5~6 other incredibly powerful great katana ws (Yukikaze, Gekko, Kasha, Kaiten, Fudo, and arguably Rana due to SC properties) that completely dominate damage competition when compared to the other 13 weapons' 1~2 powerful WS.

I'm going to go make an in depth weapon skill strength chart using the universal language of math to explain exactly why the devs have yet to do anything correctly with these WS, if their goal is to restore/preserve what little balance is left.

[Tiberius]

220 > 357

Only in Vana'diel...

[Economizer]

would find it very hard to put down their cool great axes katanas daggers swords and so on

Fair enough, I personally find many of those weapons to look (and in the case of Great Katana, sound) really cool, and if I didn't enjoy using hammers so much (Hexa Strike has an awesome animation) I might be playing some other job and hitting things with weapons, or at very least I'd get a Fulcrum Pole (the thing looks and hits like a beat stick) and use that.

It really kills me that there is a 15 point allocation limit on the merited weapon skills, because I'd like to be able to merit them all without gimping myself, even if it took a boatload of work. I'd like to be able to see these new, cool looking weapon skills whenever I do end up playing other jobs for whatever reason.


Then just now I see that dmg on it and it's like, bloody hell, really? It's like if in the next update we got a AH dagger with 71 dmg on it. Say wha? Holy shit. I think they should be upping 1h damage like that anyway because it's getting a bit silly being the level we are at right now and will be soon and weapon base damages have barely increased while 2h is shooting through the roof.

Maybe it is a bit high for an AH club, but clubs (or more accurately, Hammers and Maces, which are Clubs) have had higher damage numbers then Axes, Swords, Katanas, or Daggers. It is alot like the difference between damage Katanas with higher damage and delay for the main hand and the speed Katanas that are usually in the offhand. These aren't the wimpy wands you may have been used to seeing, and will kill things by using the highly advanced principal of extreme blunt force trauma.

"Back in the day", at 75 cap, Mjollnir was the highest damage one handed weapon in the game. While Axes or Swords (I believe one of these are the next highest damage one handed weapons) have been scaling quite nicely in the damage department too, they just don't match up to Mjollnir's current 87 damage at level 95, or the reported 93 it gets on the test server at level 99.

Now one handed weapons might not scale as well as two handed weapons are in terms of damage or DPS, but with a one handed weapon you can offhand a multihitter or one of the magian weapons that boosts double attack rate, or just plain using double and triple attack procs with dual wield can be pretty damaging. While I do wish the weapon skills for one handed weapons could be improved more, some do pretty well despite having low damage rating weapons, like the dagger.


I was concerned myself that this WS would be given to other jobs and maybe other jobs would be more powerful than WHM ever could be with a club.

I love your story, and I wish I could even remember what drew me into my glorious quest for all that is righteous and just. Still, although my motivation may be lost to the sands of time, my campaign of terror on all that opposes the good things in this world, from the smallest kitten to the tastiest cheese sandwich.

If balance compared to White Mage was an issue, they could just give WHM something even better, even if it is a reskin of Realmrazer that you only get while having Realmrazer merited but is an advanced version for White Mage only.


I'm going to go make an in depth weapon skill strength chart using the universal language of math

I'm looking forward to such a chart, we lack a lot of good, deep analysis of the game these days.

[IronPandemonium]

Tell them that if they feel any of the new WS need to be weakened, the only acceptable answer is Tachi: Shoha, because it's stronger than the 5~6 other incredibly powerful great katana ws (Yukikaze, Gekko, Kasha, Kaiten, Fudo, and arguably Rana due to SC properties) that completely dominate damage competition when compared to the other 13 weapons' 1~2 powerful WS.

You're an idiot if you're under the impression any of those six weapon skills hold any relevance in this day and age.

While Shoha and Last Stand clearly stand ahead of the rest of the weapon skills now (with Exenterator, Apex Arrow, Shijin Spiral and I think Resolution to a lesser extent after the latest adjustment to it), there's no need to downgrade them simply because they hold relevance.

Boost the other weapon skills so that they too become worthwhile instead of just a mere 1,000,000* limit point sink for a fancy animation you'll use once every two months to remind yourself of how you wish the new animations were being put to use instead of collecting dust, because they are literally just that awful currently.

*Forgot a zero since my mind's subtly trying to trick me into being optimistic.

[Theytak]

You're an idiot if you're under the impression any of those six weapon skills hold any relevance in this day and age.

While Shoha and Last Stand clearly stand ahead of the rest of the weapon skills now (with Exenterator, Apex Arrow, Shijin Spiral and I think Resolution to a lesser extent after the latest adjustment to it), there's no need to downgrade them simply because they hold relevance.

Boost the other weapon skills so that they too become worthwhile instead of just a mere 1,000,000* limit point sink for a fancy animation you'll use once every two months to remind yourself of how you wish the new animations were being put to use instead of collecting dust, because they are literally just that awful currently.

*Forgot a zero since my mind's subtly trying to trick me into being optimistic.
....are you trying to tell me that no sam uses any of the WS I listed? Not even Kaiten or Fudo? and given that most sams don't own Amano/masa, Gekko and Kasha would still be their go-to WS. Or are you using the "Abyssea = Crit ws only" line of thought, because we've already established a LONG time ago that Abyssea is done, and not to expect more content like it.

Or are you trying to tell me that the three ws with the highest WSC in the game (prior to merit ws), huge attack and accuracy boosts, and strong fTP, are some how not as powerful now as they were at 75? Or the incredibly powerful Kaiten and Fudo that have had sams creaming themselves for years now are some how suddenly not incredibly powerful?

What in the world are you smoking?

Also, ruinator pretty much destroys every other axe WS outside of Primal Rend/Cloudsplitter for stuff that resists physical damage/is extra weak to magic damage, and shattersoul finally gave staff a physical WS that isn't awful (lookin at you, retribution). Realmrazer also gave non-whms a great club WS that didn't require the awkward gearsets and moderate amount of luck that true strike requires to be solid. Hell, even nerfed it'll still do that... I hope...

The point I was trying to make with the sam WS was that sam has 5 incredibly strong WS that are just as good against low def EXP trash as they are against high def HNMs, and they're STRONG against high def HNMs. If you ignore Relic/Empy WS as they're NOT the standard for melee; Compare the heavy DDs (War, Mnk, Drk, Drg, Sam). Yes I realize other jobs are "DDs" as well, but these five are the balls-to-the-wall DDONRY jobs that focus (almost) entirely on physical damage.

War:
WS vs Low Def: 3 (Raging Rush, Fell Cleave, Rampage)
WS vs High Def: 1 (Fell Cleave (basically took steel cyclone's spot))
WS that are strong vs Both: 1 (Fell Cleave)
Merit WS: Upheavel is meh, Ruinator beats Rampage and is ok vs High Def, but you would be better off using gaxe vs High def typically

Mnk:
WS vs Low Def: 1 (Asuran Fists (Ascetic's Fury is garbage outside of abyssea, Tornado Kick and Dragon Kick need footwork to be competitive, and footwork murders dps))
WS vs High Def: 1 (Howling Fist)
WS that are strong vs Both: none
Merit WS: Shijin Spiral is competitive with/stronger than Asuran vs Low Def, and soundly trounces Howling Fist vs High Def, giving non vere mnks access to their first WS that is strong vs both

Drk:
WS vs Low Def: 2 (Guillotine, Insurgency)
WS vs High Def: 1 (Spinning Slash)
WS that are strong vs Both: none
Merit WS: Resolution gives great sword the ability to be used in either situation, but entropy is just another guillotine clone that's primarily for low def/utility.

Drg:
WS vs Low Def: 2-3 (Penta Thrust, Drakesbane, Sonic Thrust?)
WS vs High Def: 1-2 (Wheeling Thrust, Sonic Thrust?)
WS that are strong vs Both: 1? (Sonic Thrust)
Merit WS: Stardiver is horrible

Sam:
WS vs Low Def: 3 (Yukikaze, Gekko, Kasha)
WS vs High Def: 3 (Yukikaze, Gekko, Kasha)
WS that are strong vs Both: 3 (Yukikaze, Gekko, Kasha)
Merit WS: Tachi: Shoha is basically YGK put together, and is absurdly strong. Sam doesn't have any "situational" ws aside from using rana to open darkness for gekko.

I threw out empies because all of their empies are vicious WS (except lolquietus and lolcamlann'storment), and relic because all of the relic ws are more utility-for-aftermath ws than actual damage, except for Kaiten which has always been stronger than YGK

[Nightfyre]

missing the point

To put it succinctly: WAR/SAM.

[Serj]

Stuff

Please stop pretending you know how this game works. It's extremely clear you don't.

[Prothscar]

What am I looking at? You could have just stopped at WAR, where you didn't even list the WS that matters:

Ukko's Fury.

They aren't all vicious, a select few are absurdly powerful, anything besides those are powerful but not quite as or situationally useful assets to have. Victory Smite and Ukko's Fury are the only two weaponskills that I would put into the first category.

If you don't think Empyrean weaponskills are standard for DDs that are worth a grain of salt, then I don't know what to tell you.

http://27.media.tumblr.com/avatar_6feb8634e3d0_128.png

Also would like to note that Ascetic's Fury is pretty baller with Impetus up.

[Theytak]

Please stop pretending you know how this game works. It's extremely clear you don't.

Please elaborate on your assertion, or kindly withdraw it.


What am I looking at? You could have just stopped at WAR, where you didn't even list the WS that matters:

Ukko's Fury.


If you don't think Empyrean weaponskills are standard for DDs that are worth a grain of salt, then I don't know what to tell you.
I didn't say that. I said empy WS aren't the standard for most players since most players don't have them. Doesn't matter how "easy" they are to get now, because the bulk of the playerbase 1) is to lazy to bother making them, 2) doesn't have the ability accomplish getting one even with abyssea godmode playstyle or 3) is waiting until 99 before deciding whether to put in the effort.

[Prothscar]

Being lazy does not provide grounds to exempt Empyrean weaponskills from your listings. They are the superior weaponskills in most or every situation, there's no getting around that. Many to most players do in fact have at least one Empyrean weapon, the lazy minority is not a model to work an entire argument around.

Empyrean weaponskills are the standard.

[Theytak]

Being lazy does not provide grounds to exempt Empyrean weaponskills from your listings. They are the superior weaponskills in most or every situation, there's no getting around that. Many to most players do in fact have at least one Empyrean weapon, the lazy minority is not a model to work an entire argument around.

Empyrean weaponskills are the standard.

If you would actually read what I said, rather than just skimming and going "NO EMPY? U RONG U FAIL",



I threw out empies because all of their empies are vicious WS (except lolquietus and lolcamlann'storment), and relic because all of the relic ws are more utility-for-aftermath ws than actual damage, except for Kaiten which has always been stronger than YGK

when comparing things, it's fairly standard procedure to drop something that is static across the board. The fact that drks get torcleaver and drgs still use drakesbane over camlann's (as far as I know, anyway, I don't read much about drgs), and that Ukko/Smite/Fudo/Torc are all pretty much in the same category of "holyshitpowerful" means that I shouldn't need to include them in a comparison, they should just be assumed. Forgive me for hoping the people reading my post might actually use their brain...

Additionally, I didn't base my argument around "the lazy minority" I based it around the majority of the player base that don't own an empy weapon for every job they can play.

[Serj]

Please elaborate on your assertion, or kindly withdraw it.


Well, it seemed you had the assumption that Fudo/Kaiten have an attack bonus, which they do not. You're also under the assumption that they're extremely powerful ws, which compared to strong ws on just about every other DD job, they are not.

Shoha is something that's extremely needed for sam in the current state of the ws for the current state of sam and the game. Nerfing it is straight up making sam an inferior DD by not giving them a relevant ws.

You also think Sonic Drive is a better ws than Drakesbane, which will never be the case. And you also think Stardiver is a bad ws when it really isn't that bad.

Greataxe is ALWAYS superior to single axes and you should almost always be using RR (because apparently Ukko's is hard to get).


tl;dr You're entire post is extremely flawed. And above everything, you missed the point of who you quoted. If you still don't get the point of Iron's post, it's that sam isn't a good DD compared to war and other options on anything relevant in the game and you're asking for the thing that's going to help fix that to be nerfed.

[Theytak]

Well, it seemed you had the assumption that Fudo/Kaiten have an attack bonus, which they do not. You're also under the assumption that they're extremely powerful ws, which compared to strong ws on just about every other DD job, they are not.

I never said that Fudo/Kaiten get an attack bonus. And are you comparing these ws inside or outside of lolabyssea?


Shoha is something that's extremely needed for sam in the current state of the ws for the current state of sam and the game. Nerfing it is straight up making sam an inferior DD by not giving them a relevant ws.

....wut? Are you seriously trying to say that sam isn't one of the most powerful jobs in the game right now? How is Shoha something sam NEEDED? That's like saying Cors NEED a full sized cannon to shoot with because they're pirates.


You also think Sonic Drive is a better ws than Drakesbane, which will never be the case. And you also think Stardiver is a bad ws when it really isn't that bad.

I NEVER said it was better. I put a question mark by it because I know it was a decent~strong ws when it was released, but like I said, I never read anything about drg, so I have no idea.


Greataxe is ALWAYS superior to single axes and you should almost always be using RR (because apparently Ukko's is hard to get).

While I completely agree with this sentiment (and didn't say, or even imply otherwise), I would ask you that you tell that to every war that owns a farsha. No seriously, tell them, because seeing a war with a farsha makes me cringe.


tl;dr You're entire post is extremely flawed. And above everything, you missed the point of who you quoted. If you still don't get the point of Iron's post, it's that sam isn't a good DD compared to war and other options on anything relevant in the game and you're asking for the thing that's going to help fix that to be nerfed.

wtf is with people and their inability to read and comprehend? SUPERGEARUKONWAR applies to the top 5~10% of the players, and requires a fairly decent amount of work and understanding of the job to pull off. Prior to achieving that level of play, sam wins almost every time.

Perle War vs Perle Sam: Sam wi... no, nvm, They're both wearing perle, no body wins in that situation.
Step-above-perle-AH War vs Step-above-perle-AH Sam: Sam wins
Decently geared War vs Decently Geared Sam: Sam wins
Moderately well geared War vs Moderately well geared Sam: Sam wins
Well geared War vs Well geared Sam: War can finally compete with Sam, depending on the individual player.
Top of the Line War vs Top of the Line Sam: War wins

The reason Sam wins is because sam is just damn easier to gear for, and has a lot more access to Store TP than any other DD. Sam requires much more lenient levels of Gear Quality and Player Intelligence to play well, and that's the bulk of its problem.

I don't care if SUPERGODMOADSAM can't beat SUPERGODMOADWAR, because the chances of me ever being in a party with them are pretty much nil. I do, however, care about the fact that since I will never achieve SUPERGODMOAD status in terms of gear, no matter how well I gear myself, I'll always get shown up by some Sam who doesn't understand anything about the game an just spams his crap, due entirely to having a heavy advantage in base work required to do good damage.

I don't have a problem getting beaten in a parse by someone who's done more work on their character, or even someone who's put in as much work as I have. I do have a problem with some random idiot being able to slap on any old thing and suddenly be able to keep up with me, without putting in 1/10 the effort.

Also, Shoha's totally broken compared to the other merit ws, and you seriously can't deny that. Talk about missing the point though. My whole point was that, if SE wanted to nerf one of the new WS, they should nerf one that's amazing, rather than nerfing the ones that are already horribad. It's kind of like kicking a dog. If there was no way to avoid it happening, would you rather watch someone kick a healthy dog that can fend for itself, or a sick puppy that can barely stand? Also, come on. They're never gonna nerf sam, this is Samurai Fantasy XI.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Farsha is for brews that's about it.

Maybe a faux high damage main hand on bst? Idk I only see them in pet axes all the time. Or Glyph Axes...

Sam is powerful but it's not the most powerful DD in the game. Do not fear though, SE is clearly hard at work rectifying this problem.

There's something about catering to the lowest denominator in all this, but I'm too tired to post it.

[SpankWustler]

I think not accounting for Empyrean weaponskills is a big part of how the Development Bros came up with the statistics for these weaponskills in the first place. Or, in some cases, even considering a Warrior sacrificing well over 40 main-hand attack and accuracy to whack something with a Club instead of a Great Axe.

I feel like I'm dealing with a automotive salesman who wants to sell me a 1978 Chevy Van for 40,000 dollars because it weighs twice as much as a new car. They're missing some very important factors and focusing on barely relevant stuff instead.

[Theytak]

I think not accounting for Empyrean weaponskills is a big part of how the Development Bros came up with the statistics for these weaponskills in the first place. Or, in some cases, even considering a Warrior sacrificing well over 40 main-hand attack and accuracy to whack something with a Club instead of a Great Axe.

I feel like I'm dealing with a automotive salesman who wants to sell me a 1978 Chevy Van for 40,000 dollars because it weighs twice as much as a new car. They're missing some very important factors and focusing on barely relevant stuff instead.

Sounds like business as usual to me

[casual]

I just wanted to add my 5 cents about how the devs are completely retarded at this point. I love sam and all, but the dev team has made it clear that they want most of these new ws to be useless or highly situational. Sam gets a WS that makes Masamune more or less useless, DRK gets another guillotine -1 that restores mp! Awesome.

[Arcon]

Being lazy does not provide grounds to exempt Empyrean weaponskills from your listings. They are the superior weaponskills in most or every situation, there's no getting around that. Many to most players do in fact have at least one Empyrean weapon, the lazy minority is not a model to work an entire argument around.

Empyrean weaponskills are the standard.

Big ass lie. Huge majority of people does not have an Empyrean.

Secondly, Empyreans isn't what this is about, they were talking about Hexa Strike, so he used comparable WS from other jobs to demonstrate his point. It's not at all related to how good or bad they are in comparison.


Shoha is something that's extremely needed for sam in the current state of the ws for the current state of sam and the game. Nerfing it is straight up making sam an inferior DD by not giving them a relevant ws.

That's wrong, SAM is a very powerful DD in the current state of the game, arguably the best. Although that wasn't even the point, it just shows you don't know your shit.

As for the current topic (Realmrazer nerf), I can't say anything that hasn't been said already. Although if I do, maybe it'll carry more weight, so here goes: Retarded. Another example in a long line of mistakes by the development team. Good going, guys.

[Saiken253]

You guys just don't understand what the Dev teams for FFXi are going for!

LONGEST COMBO OF TERRIBLE DECISIONS EVER!

And to have a good idea now would be a major

C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER!

I'm done trolling the devs now lol~

[Urteil]

You guys just don't understand what the Dev teams for FFXi are going for!

LONGEST COMBO OF TERRIBLE DECISIONS EVER!

And to have a good idea now would be a major

C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER!

I'm done trolling the devs now lol~

No you aren't.

[IronPandemonium]

That's wrong, SAM is a very powerful DD in the current state of the game, arguably the best.

Shut up. (http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Asura/Iarumas)

Guess what job I play in 2011, going on '12 currently with a weapon that I obtained in a mere two months compared to the two and a half years I took to complete my relic back before Abyssea.

You're one of those paladins without Ochain or even Almace that full times 5/5 Creed +2 because it's good, am I right.

[Mirage]

Dear developers.

There is no reason to balance weaponskills for level 96 up against weaponskills for level 50-70. It is only natural that higher level weaponskills turn out stronger than lower level weaponskills.

To take a bit of an extreme example. You say Realmrazer is going to end up weaker than hexa strike. Isn't the new Greataxe WS stronger than Raging Rush? Why can't Realmrazer be better than Hexa strike, in that case?

[Runespider]

This is my biggest concern.

Someone obviously put a lot of time and heart into these skills. It shows. They're gorgeous.

Why spoil all of that hard work by making the WS weak?

Balance, there is a reason they look awesome.

They can't make the new WS too strong, same as some of the new "top tier" gear. So what do they do, they make them glowy/pretty or they make the flashy so people want them. It works too.

I can't believe people are actually suprised, the last interview blatantly pointed out what their goals are now (balance) and you are shocked when stuff comes out that is just that?

[Economizer]

Balance, there is a reason they look awesome.

If the intention is to make them suck, but require us to merit them for merit dumps, I'd think they'd allow us to merit more then three to full amounts. The majority of players would fully merit them in time, even if they were a bit on the weaker side if they filled a fair amount of utility and looked cool. But with the 15 merit point allocation limit, people have to choose, which results in wanting to have the best damage dealing WS regardless of all other factors.

It is a stupid limit, regardless of their intentions, but even less prudent in the face of making many of them weaker. If having them all is really a balance issue, just increase the amount of merits required for successive amounts which essentially means having more then three takes a significant amount of effort... much like many super weapons!

[Urteil]

LV 60 WS > LV 90 WS.

100 Merits for an Non-Elemental Sword WS that does terrible damage? KILL ALL THE SLIMES.
100 Merits for a Scythe WS that recovers MP that isn't used? DARK KNIGHT SPIRIT TAKER.
100 Merits for [insert-WS-here] that will never be used over [insert-WS-from-2006-here]. POINTLESS DEVELOPMENT.



100 Merits for another overpowered Samurai WS that is the only great addition thus far?

100 Merits for WS's that took amazing time to make that will never get used?

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c5/Sakaio/wtfisthisshit.jpg

[xiozen]

Being lazy does not provide grounds to exempt Empyrean weaponskills from your listings. They are the superior weaponskills in most or every situation, there's no getting around that. Many to most players do in fact have at least one Empyrean weapon, the lazy minority is not a model to work an entire argument around.

Empyrean weaponskills are the standard.

What you YOU smoking? Emp. weaponskills are "NOT" the standard... get off your box-cart, your highness...

[Runespider]

LV 60 WS > LV 90 WS.

Why are people shocked, level 60 ws have beaten everything always (unless you count Aby content which they said was a mistake), they even beat relic ws for years.

[Arcon]

Guess what job I play in 2011, going on '12 currently with a weapon that I obtained in a mere two months compared to the two and a half years I took to complete my relic back before Abyssea.

You apparently just don't know how to play your job. Also, it seems logic isn't really your thing. Since you linked your account, I assume you think a relic makes you good (which is wrong).


You're one of those paladins without Ochain or even Almace that full times 5/5 Creed +2 because it's good, am I right.

Wrong. Also, irrelevant to the discussion.

[IronPandemonium]

irrelevant to the discussion.

I'd save face like that too if I got called out like how it actually was; regardless, feel free to correct me on how to play my job any better than right now with perfected gear, because I'm clearly doing something wrong when none of my great katana weapon skills can average above 1,500 damage on anything relevant in the game (even with full buffs), whereas Ukko's does that average without even a single buff (and can spike upward of 4k).

But hey, obviously Shoha needs to go, since people like you are clearly afraid of a [currently] second-rate job being just a tad bit better than before (and still not outperforming warrior by any means).

[Laxedrane]

Man I have to agree with everyone else here.. Nerfing Realmrazor has to be one of the worse moves right now. Is it a strong weaponskill? Yes. Can other DDs potentially outdamage whm with it? Oh hell yes. As a whm. I. Really. Don't. Care.


Very few other jobs will be able to produce the Mind necessary to beat a whm on sheer weaponskill damage alone. Only paladin maybe has enough access to good clubs to compete with whms with clubs. Double attack gear won't matter becuase if your dual wielding your already at swing cap. So what do we have to worry about as whms? Plds? Well they have higher skill in club so they are acceptable at out damaging a white mage.

So what are they worried about? It actually competing with other weapon classes? It being better then the "Ultimate" skills on club? Cause 1 doesn't do damage at all, the other your lucky if it clears 300 damage outside of abyss and rangrith? Heh, don't make me laugh. So what are they trying to balance it against? Are they just simply under the ideology that "Mage class weapons" shouldn't have the potential to be able to compete with other weapon classes?

I really hope they re-consider.

[CrAZYVIC]

Tak You dont remember which is the main job of your buddy in Siren? Oh yeah Sam and its me fuck you ^_^. No more love for you in the rest of month <3.

I know a lot of people is suffering atm because the weapons skills for their jobs sux.

I will explain more in deep What can do our little new ToY Tachi destroyShoha

The new Weapon Skill for Samurai as Career sam i only can say this. "SE love us" A 4 hit Kikugasu build can parse equal a 5 hit Masamune fudo... Spam Tachi Shoha every 12 - 15 secs will be too "Overpowered".

For expain more deep this. A 4 hit Kikogasu with good sam merits. Can have a WS frecuently almost Similar a Soboro.... But this time the samurai dont will spam ws 300 damage. This time the Samurai will Spam WS of 3000 and 3700 damage -_-. Not enough for start see how overpowered this shit is? ^_^? "Yes my 6 hit ukovansara buddy you can fear too"

kikogasu 4 hit build will be the new modern minimiun efforts = x2 damage improvement.

So you are a Sam Career just shut up and support to the other players for receive a buff in their new Weapon skills.

Tak knows his Shit in FFXI. i Agree with him, Sam get too much love by the devs

[IronPandemonium]

Well, I never thought there was a second Kuroganashi, until now.

Someone hold me.

[Arcon]

Wrong. Also, irrelevant to the discussion.

I'd save face like that too if I got called out like how it actually was;

Bolded the part you obviously missed. I'm not trying to save face, because there's nothing to save. I don't have an Almace. I don't have an Ochain. I'm not full timing 5/5 AF3+2. How is that in any way relevant? You're just trying to deflect.

Secondly, I never said Shoha should go. I just said SAM is a good DD. If you don't agree, you're either not a good SAM or you didn't use it in the last few months and just like to troll people. I don't care either way, I'm used to SAM being SE's favorite DD job, it's been like that pretty much since it was released. I'm also used to, mainly because of that fact, a shitload of bandwagon SAM who don't know how to play, making the average SAM pretty bad in comparison. You may not be a bandwagon SAM, you do seem pretty dedicated to it, but that doesn't make you any good. I've seen plenty of people who thought they were kings with their relics and I've destroyed them with my non-relic WAR at 75, just to shut them up. If you suck, you suck. Sucks for you.

[Taint2]

The reason Sam wins is because sam is just damn easier to gear for, and has a lot more access to Store TP than any other DD. Sam requires much more lenient levels of Gear Quality and Player Intelligence to play well, and that's the bulk of its problem.

.


I agree with most of your post, but WAR might be the easiest melee job to gear in the game. A good SAM will have gear coming from every corner of the game.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Basic War, but if you really wanted to pimp it out (assuming you just picked up both) War also has gear coming from several places as well, mainly Sky/Einherjar/Kings/Abyssea/VW I know offhand (N hands is byakko only, can skip Kings and try for legs from Einherjar though; other two is obvious, Ares might make a comeback with Upheavel + Salvage upgrades).

I probably overlooked something for Sam however.

[doctorugh]

So just for clairification, the new sword WS will be good for rocs, elementals,flans,ghosts,mimics,skeletons and slimes;on anything else vorpal(or CDC) will be better (maybe sanguine for that matter)?

Does it go through any natural -PDT% stuff or just deals with damage types?

[Neisan_Quetz]

So just for clairification, the new sword WS will be good for rocs, elementals,flans,ghosts,mimics,skeletons and slimes;on anything else vorpal(or CDC) will be better (maybe sanguine for that matter)?

Seems to be the case. SE said they're not going to remove the attack penalty.

[Prothscar]

What you YOU smoking? Emp. weaponskills are "NOT" the standard... get off your box-cart, your highness...

Look, if you and your peers can't take a week or less to create an easy to make weapon that isn't my problem. Saying that 60% or more of people have an empyrean weapon would not be far from the truth. Your linkshell might not, and that's likely because your linkshell is lazy. The biggest gimplets could complete an empyrean in a respectable timeframe. Your inability to do so still does not exempt Empyrean weaponskills from being compared to the merit weaponskills.


Big ass lie. Huge majority of people does not have an Empyrean.

Secondly, Empyreans isn't what this is about, they were talking about Hexa Strike, so he used comparable WS from other jobs to demonstrate his point. It's not at all related to how good or bad they are in comparison.


Again, please refer to my statement above. The majority of people do in fact have at least one empyrean weapon, and if not an empyrean then a gimpyrean. If it isn't related to how good or bad they are in comparison, perhaps he shouldn't have said how good and bad they are in comparison or perhaps only compared the club weaponskill since that's the only one that has been directly compared to an older weaponskill by a community rep. It's also worth noting that he wasn't comparing the club weaponskill to hexa strike btw, he was saying that SAM has a bunch of great weaponskills compared to other jobs.


So just for clairification, the new sword WS will be good for rocs, elementals,flans,ghosts,mimics,skeletons and slimes;on anything else vorpal(or CDC) will be better (maybe sanguine for that matter)?

Does it go through any natural -PDT% stuff or just deals with damage types?

It functions exactly like Twilight Scythe and thus bypasses all forms of physical resistance and most forms of physical immunity. The problem is, it still won't be close to worthwhile even on those types of monsters. Either they'll be so low of a level that Sanguine Blade would be as effective, (even mid to highish level monsters this would be the case, at least you get some HP back too), or will be so high that the attack penalty on Requiescat would cripple it completely.

It comes down to whether you want to spend 5 of your merit WS slots and 1,000,000 limit points on a WS to farm crystals with or use in few and far between specialized circumstances where it isn't that far ahead of the competition.

[Vold]

I wasn't aware that 300,000 empyreans have been made now. It's more like maybe 10,000 people own them across all servers and have 2 or more each. I know it's easy to look at figures and go, oh, there's 50,000 empyreans out there. 50,000 people must own them. No. You underestimate a person's will to farm shit when they want said shit, and you overestimate other person's ability to jump in a group to farm or 2 box another character. I have 2 right now. I WILL have 4 soon, possibly as many as 6 when it's all said and done with. And I'm one person. Who doesn't go through linkshells to get them. And you, whoever you may happen to be, think empyrean weapons are standard? More common than relics by like a factor of 5 does not equate to "standard"

Magian weapons are still the standard, with ex/ra from NM behind it, and maybe MAYBE Empyreans have AH stuff beat out by now. Good grief I get such kicks watching people try to make this point time and again about Empyreans being standard. A couple people spew that non sense off here and there in their shells and on internet forums and everyone starts to believe it. Reminds me of theory crafting or worse, theory TH. Theory Empyreans, enjoy it while you can. You're just a fad, playa.

[Neisan_Quetz]

If you're too lazy to make at least 1 easy weapon, well, what are you doing?

[Prothscar]

Or it could be that you're just ignorant, "playa". Empyrean weapons are standard. They are thus one of the standards on which to judge other weapons and weaponskills; a casual jog through Port Jeuno or Ru'lude Gardens will turn up more empyreans per capita than your ridiculous estimations.

If they can't find a single other person to make their weapon with, then they have bigger problems than weaponskills to contend with.

[IronPandemonium]

long-winding paragraph

I'm not using my relic as a justification for being any better than what I or any other relic would be, I'm using it as a comparison for empyreans weapons, which anyone more or less - even if they're a casual mccasual - can complete an empyrean steadily in about the time frame I suggested as long as they play smart and use their time wisely.

So really, why are you (and a few others) implying an empyrean is anything other than the standard when people are completing them in the time required back before Abyssea to raise a job to seventy-five (without grinding at it every single day), or in another two instances, get the gil for a Hagun or even a Perdu Voulge with imperial standing points.

Here we are then with weapon skills that clearly blow their <300 combat skill weapon skills out of the water which are clearly the standard when at least 50% of the populous has at least one.

For whatever reason, you're seemingly ignoring their superiority all in favor of trying to make a job (of many) that has needed a step forward recently - to only take a step backward - just because you're walking blind in this era of the game that has non-empyrean melee as something you'd never even consider taking to VWNM, or even any event in general really, simply because the purchasable (or otherwise, non-empyrean/relic/mythic trial) weapon counterparts clearly do not compare to how they used to back at seventy-five and relics being a bare-minimum upgrade from what the other normally considered standard weapon for each job would be at the time.

Back to the point of the thread itself, with that said, honestly, half of these weapon skills don't even need to be the best, they just need to be at least good enough to where non-empyrean melee can actually make use of them, because as it is currently, the ones that are frowned upon currently that people are clearly not happy with don't even beat the weapon skills we've used years upon years ago that not only deal 75-esqe damage still (low tier), but are the clear reason as to why everyone's funneled themselves into jobs like warrior and monk approximately over the last year and a half (but for good reason of course).

Gear standards have certainly been revolutionized over the last little while, so why not weapon skills as well?

[Kalilla]

Being lazy does not provide grounds to exempt Empyrean weaponskills from your listings. They are the superior weaponskills in most or every situation, there's no getting around that. Many to most players do in fact have at least one Empyrean weapon, the lazy minority is not a model to work an entire argument around.

Empyrean weaponskills are the standard.Big ass lie. Huge majority of people does not have an Empyrean.
What you YOU smoking? Emp. weaponskills are "NOT" the standard... get off your box-cart, your highness...Look, if you and your peers can't take a week or less to create an easy to make weapon that isn't my problem. Saying that 60% or more of people have an empyrean weapon would not be far from the truth. Your linkshell might not, and that's likely because your linkshell is lazy. The biggest gimplets could complete an empyrean in a respectable timeframe. Your inability to do so still does not exempt Empyrean weaponskills from being compared to the merit weaponskills. The majority of people do in fact have at least one empyrean weapon, and if not an empyrean then a gimpyrean. If it isn't related to how good or bad they are in comparison, perhaps he shouldn't have said how good and bad they are in comparison or perhaps only compared the club weaponskill since that's the only one that has been directly compared to an older weaponskill by a community rep. It's also worth noting that he wasn't comparing the club weaponskill to hexa strike btw, he was saying that SAM has a bunch of great weaponskills compared to other jobs.
I wasn't aware that 300,000 empyreans have been made now. It's more like maybe 10,000 people own them across all servers and have 2 or more each. I know it's easy to look at figures and go, oh, there's 50,000 empyreans out there. 50,000 people must own them. No. You underestimate a person's will to farm shit when they want said shit, and you overestimate other person's ability to jump in a group to farm or 2 box another character. I have 2 right now. I WILL have 4 soon, possibly as many as 6 when it's all said and done with. And I'm one person. Who doesn't go through linkshells to get them. And you, whoever you may happen to be, think empyrean weapons are standard? More common than relics by like a factor of 5 does not equate to "standard"

Magian weapons are still the standard, with ex/ra from NM behind it, and maybe MAYBE Empyreans have AH stuff beat out by now. Good grief I get such kicks watching people try to make this point time and again about Empyreans being standard. A couple people spew that non sense off here and there in their shells and on internet forums and everyone starts to believe it. Reminds me of theory crafting or worse, theory TH. Theory Empyreans, enjoy it while you can. You're just a fad, playa.
If you're too lazy to make at least 1 easy weapon, well, what are you doing?
Or it could be that you're just ignorant, "playa". Empyrean weapons are standard. They are thus one of the standards on which to judge other weapons and weaponskills; a casual jog through Port Jeuno or Ru'lude Gardens will turn up more empyreans per capita than your ridiculous estimations.

If they can't find a single other person to make their weapon with, then they have bigger problems than weaponskills to contend with.
I'm not sure why the empy talk started up, but I support Proth on this one.

They are the standard, before abyssea did you see SE use relics in all their screenshots? No, they used standard gear and mostly AF1/AF2 at the time.

When you see screenshots since abyssea what do you see? Full empy armor with an empy weapon. Go look if you must, I've read the news for years and I know this to be a fact.

With that point alone I think they are standard. SE is showing them off because they are easy to get.

I myself have one, club, and did I need a linkshell to make it? No I did not.

I did mine with just 1 other person, duo'ing a weapon is very common.

I can't defend people who say that it isn't standard, because that just isn't true. Anything that easy has to be the standard, if you don't have one I question how much you've actually tried.

If you don't have one, then I would like to hear your reason. It's been over a year since abyssea started, what have you been doing this whole time? Really, this is a serious question. If you weren't making a weapon what the hell did you do for 12 months? Quit?

Most people who have an empy didn't use their LS to make one, didn't make ls members slaves. It takes some hard work but nothing huge. They are very easy to make and in my opinion not that much harder than any other elemental trial.

If you look at it that way then are magian staffs not the standard for mages? I will laugh if you don't think so. Any self-respecting mage will have at least 1 fully upgraded magian staff.

If you don't even have a fully upgraded trial in anything then please leave this discussion now.

[Tamoa]

Back to the point of the thread itself, with that said, honestly, half of these weapon skills don't even need to be the best, they just need to be at least good enough to where non-empyrean melee can actually make use of them, because as it is currently, the ones that are frowned upon currently that people are clearly not happy with don't even beat the weapon skills we've used years upon years ago that not only deal 75-esqe damage still (low tier), but are the clear reason as to why everyone's funneled themselves into jobs like warrior and monk approximately over the last year and a half (but for good reason of course).

Gear standards have certainly been revolutionized over the last little while, so why not weapon skills as well?

This. Should be rather obvious really.

[SpankWustler]

Gear standards have certainly been revolutionized over the last little while, so why not weapon skills as well?

This succinctly sums up the thoughts and feelings of almost everyone in this topic very well.

These weaponskills have totally new animations, really great ones. We can only upgrade 3 of them to full. Heaven help any poor soul hoping to get a decent result with one of them not upgraded to full, because after a long and hard look, it turns out literally all they have going for them are the 100% stat modifiers.

Not a single person testing a single weaponskill has stumbled onto a bonus or unexpected boon yet. They do what they say on the tin or worse. It's a dark and dead-armadillo-sprinkled road of attack penalties and <1 fTP values on additional hits. Apparently there's an attack bonus on Shijin Spiral, but at this point, I wonder if that just translates to the absence of an attack penalty.

So, again, here are these gorgeous new weaponskills of which we can only fully utilize three. It turns out they're actually mediocre, though. Why?

[Arcon]

I can't defend people who say that it isn't standard, because that just isn't true. Anything that easy has to be the standard [..]

I believe this is what Prothscar and IronPandemonium think as well. It's simply a misinformed definition of what the word "standard" means. At least you didn't insist on the "fact" (as Prothscar so mistakenly called it) that most people have it.

It's actually very common in the endgame scene for people to lose touch with reality. It was the same at 75. People would go on about what the "standard" was ("if you don't have a Haste +6% belt gtfo of my thread") and try to impose their ridiculously absurd perception of normality on the masses. I will admit to this: many people actively participating in current endgame have an Empyrean weapon. If it's most I can't say, I believe so, but I don't have exact numbers, so I won't make ridiculous claims like other people so callously do. But people seem to forget that there's a massive number of people who don't even have one full +2 set (there's even people who don't have a single +2 item). Some of them have even started making some weapons, but the game doesn't come as easy to everyone. There's still people wiping to Durinn. There's still people who don't have the Atma of the Razed Ruins. And all of these cases are very likely to be a subset of the people who don't have an Empyrean weapon. This game isn't all as hardcore as you are.


[..] if you don't have one I question how much you've actually tried.

That's also the thing. Many people haven't even tried yet. At all.


Most people who have an empy didn't use their LS to make one, didn't make ls members slaves. It takes some hard work but nothing huge. They are very easy to make and in my opinion not that much harder than any other elemental trial.

Then your opinion doesn't seem to be very informed. I have both Empyreans and elemental trial weapons and they're worlds apart. Most Empyreans you actually cannot solo, as in, impossible. Try Glavoid solo and see how far you get. I suppose you could pull it to some godforsaken corner of Tahrongi Canyon and zombie it, hoping no one comes by and claims it off you. But that's all you can do. And that's also the bottleneck many people face, not wanting (or getting) to involve others in helping them.

I can already see people responding with "make friends" or "get a WHM mule" or some poor soul will probably even think "suck less". And if you think those are valid suggestions, then I have to seriously doubt your mental capacity and you should leave this discussion now.

Edit:
Forgot to say what I came here to say. Happens when stuff gets derailed. I fully agree with the sentiment that standards have increased. I fully agree that it was a completely inane reason SE offered us for nerfing Realmrazer. They need to stop being afraid of the past and move on. Best example are relics. If they could introduce Empyrean weapons without issues, that completely trump the weapons that have been dominating the game for the better part of a decade, then they shouldn't have a problem with one single weapon skill becoming somewhat outdated.

[IronPandemonium]

Try Glavoid solo and see how far you get.

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/3859/1305445143249.jpg

[doctorugh]

So, again, here are these gorgeous new weaponskills of which we can only fully utilize three. It turns out they're actually mediocre, though. Why?

There's still time put these last three in the trash heap, you're not giving SE enough credit.

I would have rather them use this forum to vote on the potential nerfs for each WS, since SE planned on nerfing them all anyways. It would at least seem like they were interacting with the community that plays the game.

[Zumi]

What sad is basically what the game has turned into anyone who is willing to pay for another account and level whm or has an account of someone who quit, pretty much can have the best WSs in the game since they can easily duo box any empyrean weapon.

SE decides that 100 merit new weapon skills should be worse then pre 75 WS. Yea that doesn't make any sense. If you going to spend 100 merits on something it should be at least better then everything pre 75.

[Prothscar]

I believe this is what Prothscar and IronPandemonium think as well. It's simply a misinformed definition of what the word "standard" means. At least you didn't insist on the "fact" (as Prothscar so mistakenly called it) that most people have it.

It's actually very common in the endgame scene for people to lose touch with reality. It was the same at 75. People would go on about what the "standard" was ("if you don't have a Haste +6% belt gtfo of my thread") and try to impose their ridiculously absurd perception of normality on the masses. I will admit to this: many people actively participating in current endgame have an Empyrean weapon. If it's most I can't say, I believe so, but I don't have exact numbers, so I won't make ridiculous claims like other people so callously do. But people seem to forget that there's a massive number of people who don't even have one full +2 set (there's even people who don't have a single +2 item). Some of them have even started making some weapons, but the game doesn't come as easy to everyone. There's still people wiping to Durinn. There's still people who don't have the Atma of the Razed Ruins. And all of these cases are very likely to be a subset of the people who don't have an Empyrean weapon. This game isn't all as hardcore as you are.



That's also the thing. Many people haven't even tried yet. At all.



Then your opinion doesn't seem to be very informed. I have both Empyreans and elemental trial weapons and they're worlds apart. Most Empyreans you actually cannot solo, as in, impossible. Try Glavoid solo and see how far you get. I suppose you could pull it to some godforsaken corner of Tahrongi Canyon and zombie it, hoping no one comes by and claims it off you. But that's all you can do. And that's also the bottleneck many people face, not wanting (or getting) to involve others in helping them.

I can already see people responding with "make friends" or "get a WHM mule" or some poor soul will probably even think "suck less". And if you think those are valid suggestions, then I have to seriously doubt your mental capacity and you should leave this discussion now.

Edit:
Forgot to say what I came here to say. Happens when stuff gets derailed. I fully agree with the sentiment that standards have increased. I fully agree that it was a completely inane reason SE offered us for nerfing Realmrazer. They need to stop being afraid of the past and move on. Best example are relics. If they could introduce Empyrean weapons without issues, that completely trump the weapons that have been dominating the game for the better part of a decade, then they shouldn't have a problem with one single weapon skill becoming somewhat outdated.

If they haven't tried or put forth the effort its their own damn fault. FFXI isn't rocket science. Their inability to grasp simple game mechanics is their own issue that they could easily deal with without being "hardcore". You don't have to be "hardcore" to finish an empyrean weapon. At all. You're over inflating the difficulty of acquiring a simple weapon, and I'll pretend I didn't see you mention Empyrean armor.

Again, you're coming up with an excuse for nothing except being lazy. There is no other way to turn it. This is easy content when it comes to MMOs, or video games in general. It's a grind, nothing more nothing less, a grind that takes minimal amounts of effort to complete and moderate amount of time if done casually.

You need no more than two people for every empyrean weapon, barring possibly Bhukis because he can be annoying at points. It may be difficult for you and a select few others, and you may wipe to Durinn as do a select few others, but that is the minority. Not everyone is pants-on-head retarded or lazy.

@Devs: Buff Requiescat please. Your reasoning is absolutely ridiculous and it is nearly useless in its current form. Same can be said for all but about two of these weaponskills.

[Economizer]

So, again, here are these gorgeous new weaponskills of which we can only fully utilize three. It turns out they're actually mediocre, though. Why?

I feel that the Dark Knight WS just being a utility rather then a Damage WS wouldn't be as bad if only people could merit all the WS. I feel that the Sword WS being a situational rather then a damage WS wouldn't be as bad if only people could merit all the WS. I could go on, but the main point is this - SE don't limit the amount of weapon skills people can fully merit.

As a bit of a side note, I understand the idea behind having White Mage be the club master, but as always, if that's what they want, they could just give White Mage a better WS then Realmrazer if they unlock Realmrazer, and keep Realmrazer at its current level. Less disappointment for everyone, and the new WS can just use the same animation. Or Hexa Strike could get a quest to buff it or just a buff that only high level White Mages can do.

[Prothscar]

Would also put forth the motion that if they plan on leaving these weaponskills as useless messes, at least let us merit every single one fully and not just limit us to three weaponskills max.

[Siiri]

Discussion kind of lost focus in the emp weapon stuff. I think most of us agree that these weaponskills should be better than the lvl 60 weapon skills, and it is very sad that most are not. Also, regardless of where SAM currently falls on the food chain of DDs, it has been consistently a favorite of the developers, and many people are kind of mad once again they are one of the only jobs that got a good weaponskill.

[Quetzacoatl]

Would also put forth the motion that if they plan on leaving these weaponskills as useless messes, at least let us merit every single one fully and not just limit us to three weaponskills max.

I agree, something to the likeness of putting a certain amount of bonus into a specific weapon skill.

Here are my ideas on the matter (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/18027-DEV1049-New-Weapon-Skills-Potency-Bonuses?p=241812#post241812)

[Koren]

Would also put forth the motion that if they plan on leaving these weaponskills as useless messes, at least let us merit every single one fully and not just limit us to three weaponskills max.

If these are all useless messes at 5/5 merits, I'd rather just keep it as is and put one merit into each WS. Why should we waste time getting ~1400 merits rather than accumulate only the 170 needed to unlock all 14 WS and be done with it? If it's going to suck regardless, why put forth the effort? Or do we all enjoy Abyssea alliances to that extent?

[Economizer]

If it's going to suck regardless, why put forth the effort?

Not all of them are going to suck, which will encourage a 5/5 in a few. I don't think that the high experience points requirements really bother me, since it is just a matter of time, even if it takes a few months. What bothers me is a limit on them so you can only have so many at a time.

Well, I'd rather have them all be useful, but maybe some won't be damage, but utility WS. And lets face it, when someone has a handful of jobs, they're going to go for damage, not utility if they are forced to choose, so why should we be forced to choose?

[Kalilla]

It's actually very common in the endgame scene...

...I will admit to this: many people actively participating in current endgame have an Empyrean weapon. If it's most I can't say, I believe so, but I don't have exact numbers, so I won't make ridiculous claims like other people so callously do. But people seem to forget that there's a massive number of people who don't even have one full +2 set (there's even people who don't have a single +2 item). Some of them have even started making some weapons, but the game doesn't come as easy to everyone. There's still people wiping to Durinn. There's still people who don't have the Atma of the Razed Ruins. And all of these cases are very likely to be a subset of the people who don't have an Empyrean weapon. This game isn't all as hardcore as you are.
I'm not hardcore, I don't play more than 5-6 hours a week truthfully unless I'm fishing which I don't include for obvious reasons. It wasn't that way before abyssea but then again standing in 1 area for 3 hours and then moving to another area for 3 hours isn't really that different when you add up the time you actually play now is it.

During the past year I abandoned said end-game for a more casual play style where I'm not ruled by spawn timers and event times. I actually enjoyed being able to play when I actually wanted to play instead of being expected to be at some event some where, whatever. There have been times when I teamed back up with my old end-game ls for big events that they invited me to come to, but was nothing more than that.

In the past 12 months, where I have been labeled as hardcore by you, I was never in a party (including myself) more than 4 people (unless I'm leveling... or w/e), but more often than not I was only with my bf helping him make weapons.

Surprisingly, I do understand that not everyone has time to make an empyrean weapon. Really once you get past the NM hunting you're no longer bound by timers and can continue doing the trial in your spare time. Some people might have less time than I have to play, and that's fine. Should they be considered the standard player?

That depends on the average playtime of players really. I think the average is around 8-10 hours a week, and some of the more hardcore players can put that into a single day (why...).


Then your opinion doesn't seem to be very informed. I have both Empyreans and elemental trial weapons and they're worlds apart. Most Empyreans you actually cannot solo, as in, impossible. Try Glavoid solo and see how far you get. I suppose you could pull it to some godforsaken corner of Tahrongi Canyon and zombie it, hoping no one comes by and claims it off you. But that's all you can do. And that's also the bottleneck many people face, not wanting (or getting) to involve others in helping them.

I can already see people responding with "make friends" or "get a WHM mule" or some poor soul will probably even think "suck less". And if you think those are valid suggestions, then I have to seriously doubt your mental capacity and you should leave this discussion now.
I seriously think that the difference isn't as huge as you're making it out to be. Sure, with Empyrean you need a healer, but when it comes to time investment well...

Many people (hardcore unfortunately) can make an Empyrean weapon in a few days. Now an elemental trial is bound by rules to where you can only do it on certain times of the day. More often than not it takes longer to make an elemental weapon than it is possible to make an Empyrean weapon.

I admit my comparison between the two was probably too much and was bound to be controversial, but I still stand by my point. I think it is completely reasonable that if you can make a fully upgraded elemental trial then you can make an Empyrean weapon.

Also: I've helped make 5 Empyrean's other than my own, made club and considering dagger if I get bored enough. And have made 4 fully upgraded elemental trials. Also only play WHM and DNC.

Anyways I'm done talking about Empyreans and trials. They are such a boring topic to talk about...

[Laxedrane]

Anyone know if this update went live on the test server yet so I can see how much they hate white mage melees everywhere? Or we just gonna have to wait and be surprised when it goes live on the main servers?

[Treyd]

Discussion kind of lost focus in the emp weapon stuff. I think most of us agree that these weaponskills should be better than the lvl 60 weapon skills, and it is very sad that most are not. Also, regardless of where SAM currently falls on the food chain of DDs, it has been consistently a favorite of the developers, and many people are kind of mad once again they are one of the only jobs that got a good weaponskill.

This is my sentiments exactly. These WS are not only level 96, but require a large amount of merit points to upgrade them to their fullest potential. In my opinion, they are supposed to represent mastery over a weapon. To make them equal or in some cases lower in power to WS learned over 30 levels ago is a joke and a slap in the face. I'm honestly getting of the Devs using "Balance!" as an excuse for implementing poor gameplay mechanics that continuously receive negative feedback from the playerbase.

This is not even close to balance. Like many others, I'm starting to lose faith that SE will ever listen. The playerbase wants these new WS to be regularly usable and moderately strong for the jobs that can use them. I seriously doubt anyone is looking forward to spending 100 merits on situational toys that may be used rarely for their favorite jobs. I know I'm not.

[Dohati]

Since Requiescat has no element, it’s an effective weapon skill against monsters that are immune to physical attacks. Considering that players can use attack boosts and double attack effects to enhance damage (edited at 12:28pm PST), we decided that an adjustment was unnecessary.

Yeah, because you can build TP on mobs that are immune to physical damage...

[Luvbunny]

Seriously? Hexa Strike is your idea of balancing? Why? This is why your post has no likes Bayohne!

He is just the messenger, don't hate him for that. But do hate and voice your opinion (and wallet) against the Tanakateam so that they understand the URGENCY to look into the future and forget the "craptastic spectacular" that is the past. The current team clearly have no ideas, no visions, or heck, not even a clue on how to create a product that will satisfy the majority of the players. Their idea of a game is a hamster wheel where you run and run and run in it for years.

[kingfury]

After testing, we concluded that there is a need to lower the damage dealt by the club weapon skill Realmrazer. We'll be making adjustments so that Realmrazer is the strongest club weapon skill for jobs that cannot learn Hexa Strike.

We also concluded that there is no need to increase the damage dealt by the H2H weapon skill Shijin Spiral and the sword weapon skill Requiescat. (The adjustments for the katana and great sword weapon skills were made to fix the difficulty of dealing damage against stronger opponents.)

Shijin Spiral has an attack boost effect, so it can effectively deal damage to stronger opponents. Thus, we decided that there was no need for adjustment. Also, please keep in mind that its modifiers are DEX and not STR.

Since Requiescat has no element, it’s an effective weapon skill against monsters that are immune to physical attacks. Considering that players can use attack boosts and double attack effects to enhance damage (edited at 12:28pm PST), we decided that an adjustment was unnecessary.

We’ll make the above adjustments in the next version update and will look into implementing further adjustments following the version update as necessary.
------------------------
Please forgive me in advance if this stuff is tough to read (English folks).

I know interpreting/translating what we say so the Devs can understand it is the job of the Community Reps, but in fear that the numerous walls of text posted here could take entirely too long for them to translate in time for the Devs to actually fix things in a satisfactory way, I'm almost forced to try my own hand at posting my own "Ready to Deliver" Feedback (Well I hope it is anyway). Here goes (Google Translate, don't fail me now >< ):

(English) Final Fantasy Developers, Please listen to the fans!
--[translation]--
(Japanese) ファイナルファンタジーの開発者は、ファンに聴いてください！
-----
(English) Please understand that the new weapon skills look great! I was excited to see them the very first time, but I'm very disappointed in their strength.
--[translation]--
(Japanese) 新しい武器のスキルがきれいに見えることを理解しなさい！私は非常に最初にそれらを見て興奮していたが、私は非常に彼らの強さにがっかりしています。
-----
(English)
Please hear our requests to change these Skills into very powerful Weapon Skills instead of being Weak Weapon Skills. If they are very powerful, we will put lots of time into unlocking these Weapon Skills.
--[translation]--
(Japanese) 代わりに、弱い武器のスキルというのは非常に強力な武器スキルにこれらのスキルを変更するために私たちの要求を聞いてください。彼らは非常に強力である場合、我々はこれらの武器のスキルをアンロックに多くの時間を配置します。
-----
(English) If you have plans to increase the strength of these Weapon Skills after this update, please let us know so we can understand your direction.
--[translation]--
(Japanese) このアップデート後にこれらの武器のスキルの強さを増加させる計画を持っている場合、我々はあなたの方向を理解できるように私たちに知らせてください。
-----
(English) I was happy to test the skills of these weapons on the test server, if you decide to make changes to them, I would be very happy to test them again.
--[translation]--
(Japanese) 私は、テストサーバー上でこれらの武器のスキルをテストするために幸せだった、それらに変更を加えることを決定した場合、私はそれらを再度テストすることが非常に幸せになる。
-----
(English) Thank you very much for listening to our feedback!
--[translation]--
(Japanese) 私たちのフィードバックを聞くことを本当にありがとう！
I pray that the translation job done by Google translate wasn't too much of a hack job (^.^;) I really, REALLY love the animation work and graphic effects of these new Weaponskills, and as some have already posted, I would hate to see them go to waste. /Applause to the animation staff and special effects teams for creating some truly beautiful content! Lets hope the Planners of the actual content can hear our requests to match the masterful work and make these WS's really shine game-wise.

[Theytak]

Google translate is ALWAYS a hackjob. Seriously, where are our bilinguals who can accurately translate all the stuff we're saying? I know there are some around here somewhere...

[Greatguardian]

I can think of 4 off the top of my head. They're pretty easy to spot, they have funny moogle avatars and all of their posts show up in blue.

Don't worry. I highly doubt this is an issue of our feedback not being sent to the Devs in their language. Them hearing us and them listening to us are two completely different things.

[Theytak]

I can think of 4 off the top of my head. They're pretty easy to spot, they have funny moogle avatars and all of their posts show up in blue.

Don't worry. I highly doubt this is an issue of our feedback not being sent to the Devs in their language. Them hearing us and them listening to us are two completely different things.

I mostly just meant so that people stop posting google-translated nonsense and thinking they were helping at all

[Greatguardian]

I mostly just meant so that people stop posting google-translated nonsense and thinking they were helping at all

I know. I was addressing them as well, lol.

[kingfury]

Google translate is ALWAYS a hackjob. Seriously, where are our bilinguals who can accurately translate all the stuff we're saying? I know there are some around here somewhere...
------------------
lol well when the "bilinguals" open a thread on these forums for us Google Translate dependents to have our thoughts quickly and accurately translated to help the Com. Reps out, let me know! Google Translate is a major pain in the neck, but realistically, one can only hope the Devs are at least a tiny bit partial to us attempting to self translate lol... I would hope...

I honestly feel bad for the Com. Reps on Monday mornings after what... 10-20 pages of Text Wall-to-Text Wall post of feedback to translate to the Devs. Google Translate sux crackers, but I can imagine the Com. Reps get a laugh out of it at least :D

[saevel]

------------------------
Please forgive me in advance if this stuff is tough to read (English folks).

I know interpreting/translating what we say so the Devs can understand it is the job of the Community Reps, but in fear that the numerous walls of text posted here could take entirely too long for them to translate in time for the Devs to actually fix things in a satisfactory way, I'm almost forced to try my own hand at posting my own "Ready to Deliver" Feedback (Well I hope it is anyway). Here goes (Google Translate, don't fail me now >< ):

(English) Final Fantasy Developers, Please listen to the fans!
--[translation]--
(Japanese) ファイナルファンタジーの開発者は、ファンに聴いてください！
-----
(English) Please understand that the new weapon skills look great! I was excited to see them the very first time, but I'm very disappointed in their strength.
--[translation]--
(Japanese) 新しい武器のスキルがきれいに見えることを理解しなさい！私は非常に最初にそれらを見て興奮していたが、私は非常に彼らの強さにがっかりしています。
-----
(English)
Please hear our requests to change these Skills into very powerful Weapon Skills instead of being Weak Weapon Skills. If they are very powerful, we will put lots of time into unlocking these Weapon Skills.
--[translation]--
(Japanese) 代わりに、弱い武器のスキルというのは非常に強力な武器スキルにこれらのスキルを変更するために私たちの要求を聞いてください。彼らは非常に強力である場合、我々はこれらの武器のスキルをアンロックに多くの時間を配置します。
-----
(English) If you have plans to increase the strength of these Weapon Skills after this update, please let us know so we can understand your direction.
--[translation]--
(Japanese) このアップデート後にこれらの武器のスキルの強さを増加させる計画を持っている場合、我々はあなたの方向を理解できるように私たちに知らせてください。
-----
(English) I was happy to test the skills of these weapons on the test server, if you decide to make changes to them, I would be very happy to test them again.
--[translation]--
(Japanese) 私は、テストサーバー上でこれらの武器のスキルをテストするために幸せだった、それらに変更を加えることを決定した場合、私はそれらを再度テストすることが非常に幸せになる。
-----
(English) Thank you very much for listening to our feedback!
--[translation]--
(Japanese) 私たちのフィードバックを聞くことを本当にありがとう！
I pray that the translation job done by Google translate wasn't too much of a hack job (^.^;) I really, REALLY love the animation work and graphic effects of these new Weaponskills, and as some have already posted, I would hate to see them go to waste. /Applause to the animation staff and special effects teams for creating some truly beautiful content! Lets hope the Planners of the actual content can hear our requests to match the masterful work and make these WS's really shine game-wise.

I'll probably end up .dat swapping the new WS's onto some of the more boring older ones. That way I can at least enjoy looking at the pretty visuals and pretending their new.

[SpankWustler]

When I put a recent post by Mocchi into Google translate, it transformed some text about Blue Mage and clubs into something else entirely.

The translated post began with a bit of none-too-subtle innuendo about how Blue Mages were lonely for want of proper poles, briefly approached making sense by referencing Trials of Magians and White Mage-only poles (but mentioned neither by name), had a lengthy bit of vague jibberish in the middle, and closed by implying people are annoying.

I suspect the vague jibberish in the middle was accurate in spirit if not in letter, but you get the idea. I will say that Google Translate is much better now than when it first began, only because it is no longer obsessed with fish.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Supposedly on JP forums SE has stated they will be weakening Ruinator to be equal to rampage with 2-3 crits (same for Realmrazer compared to Hexa Strike), they want Rdms and Blus to use Requiescat but not Plds (so keeping the attack penalty), and they want Shijin to be weaker than Stringing Pummel.

Well, thanks a lot for that then.

[macross]

Yeah, jpn friend told me axe getting nerfed too.

[Sparthos]

SE>> We want this update to fail.

[Aldersyde]

Is there any new ws that is actually better than one already in the game?

WHY on earth would I put 10>15>20>25>30 merits into a ws just to have it be equal to a ws I've had since 2005-2006? That's the million-dollar question. Getting 1,000,000 xp (despite the ease in which it can be acquired) for a ws that is merely equal to what we already have is sheer lunacy. 1,000,000 xp for something that is merely pretty? I'm getting tired of this side-grade bullshit. Level 99 and merited weapon skills should have been epic, instead, it's just garbage.

/Sigh, and I was looking forward to an improvement over rampage.

[Economizer]

Yeah, speaking of garbled Google Translate, even mucking through it, I can say with near-total confidence that the JP forums thread on this is almost a perfect mirror, except without any paranoia about not being listened to because they speak English.

I mean, it is eerie how closely they mirror the topics we've been talking about, at least in the last several pages of chatter.

[darkhorror]

Supposedly on JP forums SE has stated they will be weakening Ruinator to be equal to rampage with 2-3 crits (same for Realmrazer compared to Hexa Strike), they want Rdms and Blus to use Requiescat but not Plds (so keeping the attack penalty), and they want Shijin to be weaker than Stringing Pummel.

Well, thanks a lot for that then.

Ugh.... Why does SE hate us so much?

Now my question is how are they making Ruinator weaker? Anyone good at translating?

[Neisan_Quetz]

All I could reasonably get that made any sense was they want it to be equal to Rampage with 2-3 crits, and it was meant less for Knight than Red demon taoist and Blue demon taoist.

[darkhorror]

So SE thinks it's a good idea to make a bunch of WS's with some of the best animations we have seen, that cost 100 merits, and are level 96+, but are weaker than ones we have been using since lvl 50+?

This makes zero sense.

[Greatguardian]

DO NOT SCREW WITH SHIJIN SPIRAL. IT IS THE ONLY THING IN THE GAME RIGHT NOW THAT MAKES SPHARAI WORTH MAKING AND COMPETITIVE WITH VERETH. THIS MEANS IT'S THE ONLY BLOODY WS THAT'S WORKING PROPERLY.

[Kincard]

They're planning on making it deal something like half the damage it does now. Like Neisan said, they want to balance it so that will do similar damage to Rampage assuming all hits connect and 2-3 crits. The implication is that you would want to use Ruinator over Rampage in low-crit situations because it will supposedly have better consistency.

I'm also going to throw in the "why spend 100 merits on this stuff". I don't mind if SE wants there to be more variety in the weapon skills we use, but making one of those situational WSs cost 100 merit points, instead of making us level into it, is just really silly.

Also stop using Google translate please, the pseudo-Japanese it spits out is laughable to anybody who has even a rudimentary grasp of the language. ISHYGDDT

EDIT: As far as I can tell GG, they don't plan on touching Shijin Spiral. That entire post they did was more or less to explain why it's power level isn't over 9000 like a lot of players are asking for it to have.

[darkhorror]

They're planning on making it deal something like half the damage it does now. Like Neisan said, they want to balance it so that will do similar damage to Rampage assuming all hits connect and 2-3 crits. The implication is that you would want to use Ruinator over Rampage in low-crit situations because it will supposedly have better consistency.

I'm also going to throw in the "why spend 100 merits on this stuff". I don't mind if SE wants there to be more variety in the weapon skills we use, but making one of those situational WSs cost 100 merit points, instead of making us level into it, is just really silly.

Also stop using Google translate please, the pseudo-Japanese it spits out is laughable to anybody who has even a rudimentary grasp of the language. ISHYGDDT

EDIT: As far as I can tell GG, they don't plan on touching Shijin Spiral. That entire post they did was more or less to explain why it's power level isn't over 9000 like a lot of players are asking for it to have.

We all know that SE has problems implementing in a way that makes sense. But if they don't tell us how they are trying to accomplish it, we will just have to wait till next update and see what they did. fTP change, attack penalty, we will have to wait and see I guess.

[Finuve]

SE, ALL MERIT WSs SHOULD BE STRONGER THAN ALL NON EMPY WSs, Relic WSs should be boosted to be stronger than merit WSs, and Mythic WSs should be boosted when using Mythics to be stronger than Merit WSs (this last is already usually the case)

in essence Empy > Mythic(With mythic weapon only) = Relic > Merit > ALL ELSE
Make Relics and Mythics = Empy outside of the WSs

Is this THAT HARD?

shift key = fun as well

[Byrth]

I guess I should post a picture in case people are missing it:
http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/gallery/9381bc363ce34b1d5a1202fde77971b0.jpg

This could all be "working as intended." 100 merits gets your foot in the door, and then they release the next patch.

[Greatguardian]

What in the world could they possibly merit up aside from the WSC that would make the WS worth using though? Would they actually allow us to bump up fTP with merits? Even 0.1 per upgrade for 5 upgrades could be overpowered as balls on the WS which retain fTP through all hits.

Even if Group 2 is WS-related, I'm looking forward to Attack Penalty reductions for Req/Res, and Plague duration increases on Shijin, etc. None of which will really salvage the skills if they nerf them even more.

[Laxedrane]

SE, ALL MERIT WSs SHOULD BE STRONGER THAN ALL NON EMPY WSs, Relic WSs should be boosted to be stronger than merit WSs, and Mythic WSs should be boosted when using Mythics to be stronger than Merit WSs (this last is already usually the case)

in essence Empy > Mythic(With mythic weapon only) = Relic > Merit > ALL ELSE
Make Relics and Mythics = Empy outside of the WSs

Is this THAT HARD?

shift key = fun as well

I personally think the order should be Empyreon>Relic>Mythic since mythic are emphasis on stats on weapon while relic is emphasis on break and buff weaponskills with highest DoT.(Not counting aftermaths of course)

Of course I am of the school of thought that they should make mythics aftermath all 3 and just have higher tp increase the effect and duration. So don't mind me.

[Soidisant]

If there was a Group 2 then it would either have to be 1 individual tweak for each WS or merits that apply to all meritted WS'es across the board otherwise the scroll list would be silly.

[Byrth]

Crit rate, Accuracy, fTP, TP Bonus, and Attack could all be applied across the board.

Like:
fTP: +12/256 per merit level (~+0.05 fTP)
Attack/RAtk: +5% per merit level
Accuracy: +10 per merit level
Crit Rate: +1% per merit level
TP Bonus: +20 TP Bonus per merit level

etc. I'm sure there are more. Point is, the heading says "Group 1." Maybe "Group 2" is going to be another set of weaponskills that cost a lot of merits and no one cares to use, but I doubt it. Or maybe the "Group 1" is the result of sloppy copy-pasta from Tier 1/2 job merits.

[darkhorror]

So you're tell me there is a chance! haha

[Greatguardian]

TP bonus would be interesting. Would they really add crit rate to WS that already have non-crit effects? I don't think we've ever seen this done, but it would be interesting.

Granted, I completely forgot the potential of TP bonus, I'm just not getting my hopes up. I'd rather be pleasantly surprised later than disappointed when group 2 is Attack +2/merit. All I see right now is a whole slew of nerfs to what could have been awesome WS.

Also, people will shit bricks if they screw with Shijin Spiral. It is currently perfect. It's situationally useful, and only stronger than Vereth/Smite if you have a 99 Relic - and even then only by a couple %. This is right where it should be. Nerfing it makes absolutely no sense.

[Byrth]

All I'm saying is, most of these weaponskills are very obviously not useful and look like they've been intentionally made that way. The only "strong" part of most of these WSs is their modifier. I don't know exactly what they're planning for Group 2, or even if the Group 1 header is anything more than laziness, but I'd hesitate to totally write them off for all time.

At the moment, none of these weaponskills are so awesome that I'm going to go merit right after the update so I can use them. XP comes to me anyway and I'm bound to cap my merits out before the next patch, so there's no rush. These weaponskills aren't a waste of merits if you had no other way to spend them, which is the approach I'm taking with it. I'll cap out STR and Exenterator, then HP/MP, and then Upheaval/Ruinator. Then the next patch will hit.

[Koroma]

I personally think the order should be Empyreon>Relic>Mythic since mythic are emphasis on stats on weapon while relic is emphasis on break and buff weaponskills with highest DoT.(Not counting aftermaths of course)

Of course I am of the school of thought that they should make mythics aftermath all 3 and just have higher tp increase the effect and duration. So don't mind me.

I sort of agree with you emp should be the strongest WS but i think relic weapons deserve better aftermath effects some of them really suck.

[Asymptotic]

Meh.
Exenterator is still decent.
Turning a blind eye.

[Sparthos]

All I'm saying is, most of these weaponskills are very obviously not useful and look like they've been intentionally made that way. The only "strong" part of most of these WSs is their modifier. I don't know exactly what they're planning for Group 2, or even if the Group 1 header is anything more than laziness, but I'd hesitate to totally write them off for all time.

At the moment, none of these weaponskills are so awesome that I'm going to go merit right after the update so I can use them. XP comes to me anyway and I'm bound to cap my merits out before the next patch, so there's no rush. These weaponskills aren't a waste of merits if you had no other way to spend them, which is the approach I'm taking with it. I'll cap out STR and Exenterator, then HP/MP, and then Upheaval/Ruinator. Then the next patch will hit.

I'd throw in the "I want to believe.jpg" here but if that was the case Byrth, SE has failed on marketing the product to its end-user and no such announcement supporting your argument has been made. Cat II could be another set of WS for all we know or tweaks to old weaponskill modifiers.

Some of the weaponskills are already viable without further improvement and rival/surpass current weaponskills. Last Stand, Tachi: Shoha, Resolution, Shijin Spiral and Exenterator to exact so I see no reason why they'd hand out nerfs without explaining that a bright future lay in wait for the very same weaponskills.

It seems in yet another fit to 'balance' things, SE has completely destroyed the viability of 3 WS in particular (Ruinator, Realmrazer, Requiescat) and feel that old weaponskills should hold some seniority over the new. Of course, this point of view is the polar opposite of the base but what's new.

[Camate]

Hey everyone, we’ve been looking over your feedback and wanted to give more details in the thought process behind our changes and some of the weapon skills themselves.
　　
Axe Weapon Skill “Ruinator”
We will be lowering the attack modifier value and changing it so it’s half of the current value. The amount of damage dealt to high level enemies (those that have high defense) will be reduced, however, being able to deal damage easier than other axe weapon skills will remain unchanged.

We are making it so that the amount of damage will be around the same as Rampage if you have full accuracy and get 2-3 criticals. (This is when both of them are executed at 100 TP. There is of course more damage that can be dealt depending on gear and food.)

We are making adjustments so that you can pick Ruinator if you want to deal more consistent damage, or Rampage if you want to try and deal large amounts of damage.
　
Club Weapon Skill “Realm Razer”
The idea behind the adjustment is the same as Ruinator.

We are making it so that the amount of damage will be around the same as Hexa Strike if you have full accuracy and get 2-3 criticals. Again, this is for 100 TP and more damage can be dealt depending on gear and food.

We ultimately decided to adjust this weapon skill due to the fact that a non-critical hit modifier weapon skill would easily surpass the maximum damage dealt by Hexa Strike in stable conditions, and the result would cause a rapid increase in damage inflation.
　　
Sword Weapon Skill “Requiescat”
Since Spirits Within’s damage varies based on your amount of HP and TP, we are adjusting Requiescat so that it will be easier to use than Spirits Within once you have 300 TP and also so that jobs that cannot boost their HP as high as paladins will be able to deal damage.

Also, Atonement is an easy to use weapon skill for paladins, which has a special feature, so the idea behind Requiescat was to give jobs other than paladin, specifically red mage and blue mage, a good weapon skill choice.
　
　
Hand-to-Hand Weapon Skill “Shijin Spiral”
There have been requests saying that this is weaker than Stringing Pummel and Victory Smite, so please make it stronger than both of those, but we cannot do this for the same reasons listed for our adjustments to Ruinator and Realm Razer.

We have also received some comments saying that the damage of Shijin Spiral is no different than Asuran Fists, or perhaps lower.

We took a look at the conditions of the players who performed weapon skill tests, but there are differences in attack power when executing each weapon skill, and because of this the result was that Asuran Fists and Victory Smite was higher.

Shijin Spiral is stronger than Asuran Fists and when boosting your stats using the appropriate equipment and food, the differences between Asuran Fists and Shijin Spiral will become more apparent, and the gap between Victory Smite and Shijin Spiral will also become smaller.

[Kalilla]

Camate, please send a message to them:


8 YEARS

Hexa Strike, to my knowledge, was added May 27th, 2003 along with Holy Breastplate/Divine Breastplate.

Black Halo was introduced Dec 16, 2003, but was never as powerful as Hexa Strike was. In 4 days it will have been 8 years since Black Halo was introduced.

Randgrith was introduced Feb. 26, 2004, and only limited to Mjollnir/Gullintani until the Sep. 9, 2010 update where SE introduced weapons that could use these weapon skills. This was again never as good as Hexa Strike.

Mystic Boon was introduced Sep. 9, 2008. This was the first new weapon skill in 5 years that was worth using. Even though it is very useful for replenishing MP, it is not a damage dealing weapon skill per se. So with that this doesn't count.

Flash Nova was introduced Jun. 22, 2010, and wasn't ever used...

Dagan was introduced Sep. 9, 2010, exactly two years after the previous mythic release. This weapon skill does NO damage, and is weaker than Mystic Boon until you start fighting more difficult monsters where you'll benefit from using Dagan instead to bypass the enemies defense. This is very, very situational and I almost never use it (and I have Gambanteinn).

Realmrazer will be introduced Dec. 14, 2011? From what you have said this will again be a weapon skill that isn't as strong as hexa, but unlike previous weapon skills in the past that provided additional benefits to the White Mage (aside from Black Halo) this does not give anything to the user. It is a damage dealing weapon skill that isn't as powerful as Hexa Strike, and was only created to give other jobs who always wanted Hexa Strike in the past a chance to use it. You're giving away the only thing we had and on top of that you made it weaker than Hexa Strike so we don't even benefit from using it.

[Byrth]

I'm riding the "I want to believe.jpg" pretty hard right now. I want to believe that it's possible this is all part of a larger plan. Like:
* Realmrazer : We don't know how they're changing it, but I'd bet they're dropping it to about a .6 fTP that's propagated through the hits. That way you end up with 4.8 fTP without gorget/belt or 6.4 fTP with gorget and belt instead of the current 8 base (including offhand in all cases). If you tossed another +.25 fTP on there from Group II, it'd be up to 7.6~8.4 fTP, aka back to current power. Tossing on another 25% Attack would make it a Hexa Strike replacement in pretty much every situation.
* Requiescat and Blade Shun : These would be able to use +25% Attack and +100 TP Bonus to neutralize their Attack penalty. It would make Blade: Shun a pretty respectable WS in some situations.
* Stardiver with fTP+.25 and Attack+25% would take all kinds of dumps over Drakesbane in many situations.
* Shoha would become a destroyer of worlds, and the SAM fanboy apocalypse that would ensue may shatter Vanadiel. I can't decide if that makes it more or less likely.
* Other already solid WSs like Upheaval and Exenterator would get stronger, but they wouldn't benefit from it as much as the WSs that are currently weaker because they don't replicate fTP or have an attack penalty.

The fact that it pushes the WSs towards balance with each other (apart from Shoha) is what encourages me. SE has always been pretty horrible at hiding their love of SAM, so I'm willing to write that one off.

[Prothscar]

Sword Weapon Skill “Requiescat”
Since Spirits Within’s damage varies based on your amount of HP and TP, we are adjusting Requiescat so that it will be easier to use than Spirits Within once you have 300 TP and also so that jobs that cannot boost their HP as high as paladins will be able to deal damage.

Also, Atonement is an easy to use weapon skill for paladins, which has a special feature, so the idea behind Requiescat was to give jobs other than paladin, specifically red mage and blue mage, a good weapon skill choice.

Here's the problem with this reasoning, sword already has a weaponskill that is superior to Spirits Within and Atonement: Sanguine Blade. It deals magical damage, bypassing the same physical defenses that Requiescat bypasses and does not face the Spirit Damage penalty that Spirits Within and Atonement have on any NM added in the last 3 years. It, however, does not have a massive attack reduction, making it functionally useless on anything that is high enough of a level that Requiescat would be superior to Sanguine Blade on.

On most any target, especially the ones that I feel the Dev team is trying to target with Requiescat, Chant du Cygne and even Vorpal Blade will be superior options to use. Just remove the attack penalty, it doesn't even have to get an attack bonus in return, just remove the attack penalty. An fTP increase based on TP (BOOST), an Accuracy boost based on TP (BOOST), anything except an attack penalty.

[Greatguardian]

I want to know who's supplying the negative Shijin Spiral feedback and why they suck so much. All of the testing on the English forums pretty much point it to being comparable to VSmite if you don't have a Vereth and better than VSmite if you have a Spharai, and otherwise being an Asuran replacement for non-Smite users.

It's good, I guess, that they're not nerfing it. Bringing it up at all had me worried, since it was doing so well. I'm just sorta flabbergasted. I suppose I should praise the incompetence of the JPMNK forums for not realizing what a gem they had? Or perhaps I should praise their ingenuity. Reverse psychology, dawg.

Quickly! We need a bilingual to go post some phony Tachi: Shoha numbers in JP that have it losing to Tachi: Gekko so that they will simply respond to us by refusing to buff it instead of nerfing it.

[Creelo]

Axe Weapon Skill “Ruinator”
We will be lowering the attack modifier value and changing it so it’s half of the current value. The amount of damage dealt to high level enemies (those that have high defense) will be reduced, however, being able to deal damage easier than other axe weapon skills will remain unchanged.

We are making it so that the amount of damage will be around the same as Rampage if you have full accuracy and get 2-3 criticals. (This is when both of them are executed at 100 TP. There is of course more damage that can be dealt depending on gear and food.)

We are making adjustments so that you can pick Ruinator if you want to deal more consistent damage, or Rampage if you want to try and deal large amounts of damage.


They couldn't just fucking leave the solid Axe WS alone...

[Zannon]

...Just pass on to "Enix..." delete the forums/test server because clearly they suck at listening to feedback, the game is clearly going downhill...the bottom is called Game over!

I'm done with this forum, only here till my friends quit later.

PS i miss when squaresoft made good games and Enix has done nothing but taint their name by pumping out 100s of trash games a year.

[Keinn]

You guys think its a good idea to make people spend 100 merits to have a level 96 weapon skill that is less good or equal to what is already available to players since level 55-70. Really?

I am disappoint.

[Aldersyde]

Hey everyone, we’ve been looking over your feedback and wanted to give more details in the thought process behind our changes and some of the weapon skills themselves.
　　
Axe Weapon Skill “Ruinator”
We will be lowering the attack modifier value and changing it so it’s half of the current value. The amount of damage dealt to high level enemies (those that have high defense) will be reduced, however, being able to deal damage easier than other axe weapon skills will remain unchanged.

We are making it so that the amount of damage will be around the same as Rampage if you have full accuracy and get 2-3 criticals. (This is when both of them are executed at 100 TP. There is of course more damage that can be dealt depending on gear and food.)

We are making adjustments so that you can pick Ruinator if you want to deal more consistent damage, or Rampage if you want to try and deal large amounts of damage.

Let me get this straight. You want players to invest 1,000,000 xp for a weapon skill so they can deal mediocre, yet consistent, damage but if they want to deal "large amounts" of damage, they should continue to use a weapon skill that is eight years old and is available by natural skill at level 55? On what plane of reality does this make any sense whatsoever? You've given the thought process that went into nerfing these weapon skills but I want to hear the how the dev team justifies such a heavy cost in time for a weapon skill that is less effective at damage dealing than ones we already have.

If these weapon skills were based off natural skill, I would be cool with consistent damage and situational uses. When the cost is 10>15>20>25>30 merit progression, I'm not so forgiving. This is bullshit and quite frankly should be acquired with natural skill or scrapped altogether.

The utter contempt exhibited by these devs in their refusal to actually provide a suitable reward for time invested by players makes me feel stupid for giving SE money every month. Their fear of actually offering meaningful progression baffles me.

I need booze.

[Zannon]

Lololololololol

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d102/ama989010ama/balance.jpg

[Zirael]

　　
Sword Weapon Skill “Requiescat”
Since Spirits Within’s damage varies based on your amount of HP and TP, we are adjusting Requiescat so that it will be easier to use than Spirits Within once you have 300 TP and also so that jobs that cannot boost their HP as high as paladins will be able to deal damage.

Also, Atonement is an easy to use weapon skill for paladins, which has a special feature, so the idea behind Requiescat was to give jobs other than paladin, specifically red mage and blue mage, a good weapon skill choice.

Giving Red Mage a native weaponskill with attack penalty (Requiescat) makes more sense than not giving Red Mage a native weaponskill with STR/MND/INT/Mab modifiers (Sanguine Blade)? Last time I checked, RDM didn't sit at 999 Attack. If something is resistant to physical damage, both Red Mage and Blue Mage would use... magic.

[FrankReynolds]

Hey everyone, we’ve been looking over your feedback and wanted to give more details in the thought process behind our changes and some of the weapon skills themselves.

Basically we just tried to do everything you didn't want us to do, and none of what you wanted us to do. We even tried to mess with some stuff that you thought was fine to begin with, just for good measure.



I'm joking.....

Seriously though..... Nobody cares why you guys are doing all this weird crap with the new Weapon Skills. We just want you to knock it off.

[Greatguardian]

Hey guys, don't you understand? It's an EXP sink. People've been asking for something to do with that overflow EXP, right?

Now you have things to drop 3 million EXP into!

What? Why are you angry? You told us they didn't have to be useful merits. You just wanted an exp sink!

Guys? Why are you looking at us like that? Is that a pitchfork? Are you cosplaying? What anime is that from?

Oh dear. I don't think they're cosplaying, Jim.

[Prothscar]

Seriously though..... Nobody cares why you guys are doing all this weird crap with the new Weapon Skills.

On the contrary...

[Nightfyre]

Hey everyone, we’ve been looking over your feedback
Bullshit. If the developers honestly believe this tripe constitutes good game design, they are not only ignoring our feedback but also have no understanding of the game they've created. This is an embarrassment and they should be ashamed, if not fired. Not just for this, but also for every other terrible idea they've implemented over the years.

[Sparthos]

Gene Wilder with a message from the developers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5QGkOGZubQ&feature=related

[Daniel_Hatcher]

lol, Wow! And someone actually gave a thumbs up to this nonsense.

[Kalilla]

Hey everyone, we’ve been looking over your feedback and wanted to give more details in the thought process behind our changes and some of the weapon skills themselves.
.
.
.

Hey everyone, we’ve been looking over our feedback and wanted to give more details in the thought process behind our changes and some of the weapon skills themselves.
Ah now it makes sense

[darkhorror]

Hey everyone, we’ve been looking over your feedback and wanted to give more details in the thought process behind our changes and some of the weapon skills themselves.
　　
Axe Weapon Skill “Ruinator”
We will be lowering the attack modifier value and changing it so it’s half of the current value. The amount of damage dealt to high level enemies (those that have high defense) will be reduced, however, being able to deal damage easier than other axe weapon skills will remain unchanged.

We are making it so that the amount of damage will be around the same as Rampage if you have full accuracy and get 2-3 criticals. (This is when both of them are executed at 100 TP. There is of course more damage that can be dealt depending on gear and food.)

Did Ruinator have a large attack bonus? Did they just cut the attack bonus in half? Or was their an attack modifier that was at like 1.5, and cutting it in half puts it at .75 making it so you have an attack penalty? Or was it just an ftp mod or something?

If there was a large attack bonus and it was just lowered to half of what it was, I am ok with that. But an attack penalty will make this WS totally useless in any situation where it matters.

[Dreamin]

I'm going to predict right now, Tanaka going to make these new WS required proc (or only thing that will proc) the 'new/reramped' content...

I gave up trying to understands what SE is doing...

[Kalilla]

Axe Weapon Skill “Ruinator”
We will be lowering the attack modifier value and changing it so it’s half of the current value. The amount of damage dealt to high level enemies (those that have high defense) will be reduced, however, being able to deal damage easier than other axe weapon skills will remain unchanged.

We are making it so that the amount of damage will be around the same as Rampage if you have full accuracy and get 2-3 criticals. (This is when both of them are executed at 100 TP. There is of course more damage that can be dealt depending on gear and food.)

We are making adjustments so that you can pick Ruinator if you want to deal more consistent damage, or Rampage if you want to try and deal large amounts of damage.They couldn't just fucking leave the solid Axe WS alone...
http://ru.memegenerator.net/cache/instances/400x/11/11936/12222522.jpg

[UnicornLeoheart]

Should just change the name from ruinator to ruined, sorry.

[Insaniac]

I can't even think of anything funny to say. This is so god damned stupid.

[FrankReynolds]

On the contrary...

You honestly like them nerfing weapon skills, and then giving half baked explanations about balance? What is wrong with you?

[kingfury]

Hey everyone, we’ve been looking over your feedback and wanted to give more details in the thought process behind our changes and some of the weapon skills themselves.
---------------
Even after a deeper explanation of the Dev's direction/thinking with these new weapon skills, it's just a humongous disappointment to those of us that take massive pride in obtaining, testing, and perfecting the weapons skills we have. It's just a horrible direction for such great looking weapon skills. We've been seeing Re-skinned weapon skills for so long. Empyrean weapon skills were last of Great weapon skill animations we got to see (even though they all were not super effective), so these nicely animated skills had high potential to be the next BIG "energy".

This is my best suggestion for such a direction. Please use the current logic on some level 80+ "RESKINED animations" weapon skills that can merited and "enhanced" in the very same method as the Devs are proposing currently. This wouldn't take massive new production time creating new animations, and it would be numbers and values to plug in for us to start testing. Give them new names but let these non-awesome looking weapon skills absorb this strange reasoning that the Devs are looking to marry to some weapon skills.

For these beautifully new and "Powerful-looking" weapons skills, please just make them destroy our enemies upon using them. We can still unlock them via Merits and such, but just make them plan-o'l-damage dealing weapon skills please. Real easy stuff. They would instantly be loved by the player base at that point.

There's no easier way to put it I'm afraid. We all wanted to believe that these weapon skills would be just as damaging as they appear to be, so just simply award us that please.

[Greatguardian]

You honestly like them nerfing weapon skills, and then giving half baked explanations about balance? What is wrong with you?

I think he just meant he cared why they were doing all this dumb bullcrap.

[FrankReynolds]

I think he just meant he cared why they were doing all this dumb bullcrap.

I know, but he ignored the second sentence which negated the need for an explanation. I'm just giving him a hard time, because it's better that kicking the dog (which is what camates post made me want to do).

[xStealth]

Players want new weaponskills for one reason -- to deal damage, not to restore MP or to look at pretty animations. "Hey, check out these new awesome looking (for the most part) weaponskills, players! Unlock them all and suck or max out 3 and ... well, after we've nerfed them all (except GK of course!), still suck! We want to take this opportunity to invite everyone to level SAM!" Seriously, it might feel as if the players are asking for a lot, but all we want are WS that do more than the counterparts you're comparing them to. I don't think anyone expects them to do more than empyrean WS, but come on, less or at most on par with WS all jobs have had since 70 or below (most even lower)? I can't express the sheer amount of fail from the dev team on this one...

I'd say something about how you want us to be annoyed and quit to head over to XIV, but hey, that sucks even more :/ I would think since we're theoretically paying for the development (read: correction) of XIV, the dev team might actually use our input. I find it incredibly hard to believe that the JP would be in favor of nerfing all the WS.

[Greatguardian]

I know, but he ignored the second sentence which negated the need for an explanation. I'm just giving him a hard time, because it's better that kicking the dog (which is what camates post made me want to do).

Poor Camate =/. This is just one of those days where he knows the messenger is going to get shot. I hope he doesn't take it personally. Though, at the same time, maybe his bosses shouldn't be putting him in a position to get shot by the playerbase in the first place.

What do you think, moogles? Time for a ... moogle kupo d'etat?

[Kalilla]

lol, Wow! And someone actually gave a thumbs up to this nonsense.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/17510-dev1049-新たなウェポンスキルの追加-について-テストサーバ?p=242364#post242364

The JP's rated Mocchi up 28 times... lol

[Nightfyre]

I find it incredibly hard to believe that the JP would be in favor of nerfing all the WS.
From what I've heard, a lot of them are upset too.

[Keinn]

Most of the people that spoke in complaint underneath Mocchi's post got 60-100 rate ups.

[Prothscar]

I think he just meant he cared why they were doing all this dumb bullcrap.

This.

/10char

[Monchat]

The Dev's "balance" attitude is starting to piss me off. FF14's failure was not enough, they keep failing with 11. Clearly balance means not releasing something stronger than what already exits; they proved it with lv 95 update, and now those mostly useless WS; at least they dont nerf shijin spiral ... crossing fingers because it makes spharai the #1 MNK weapon.

Idk who those JPs are that tested asuran fists to be stronger than shijin spiral. The same JPs that test counter rate on spharai with a sample of 50? lol

Can't wait for the merit related relic+2s, can't wait for more balance.

I want to believe.jpg too

( this update is going to be more underwhelming than lv 95 one)

[Prothscar]

An explanation is in order. Don't feed me that mother fucking "balance" bullshit, we all know that's just a cover story now that your precious "PS2 Limitations" has been dispelled. All you're doing is fucking us over, the loyal paying customers, some of which have been playing for 9 or so years, dangling new pretties in front of us, making them somewhat passable; then we ask for them to be slightly increased in power to make them worthwhile and you instead nerf everything.

What in the fuck is wrong with you SE? Seriously, what have we done other than pay you year after year while simultaneously getting buttfucked?

We're not going to leave FFXI and play FFXIV if you make FFXI shittier than ever. If anything, it'll piss us off so much that we'll never subscribe to one of your games again.

[Luvbunny]

I'd say something about how you want us to be annoyed and quit to head over to XIV, but hey, that sucks even more :/ I would think since we're theoretically paying for the development (read: correction) of XIV, the dev team might actually use our input. I find it incredibly hard to believe that the JP would be in favor of nerfing all the WS.

I think that is their reasoning - nerf, "balanced" and keep adding utter craps for FFXI so that the players quit in droves to FF14. But the retards do not understand that this taint the brand image of FF in general. So my first reaction would be "SE is bad as company and creating inferior products" hence I should no longer purchase any of their games at full price and wait until it hit the bargain bins - here is looking at you FFXIII-2 (was looking forward to buy but now will just wait till the price is reduced). In any case - vote with your wallet, the next few updates look like utter garbage anyway so there is no reason to continue paying after this month if you don't like what you see.

[Kalilla]

Most of the people that spoke in complaint underneath Mocchi's post got 60-100 rate ups.
lol yea, was just mentioning it.

On that note...


http://kalilla.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/looks-important.png

I'm not sure what he said but people like it.

[Finuve]

ya know SE you could have at least taken me out to dinner first, I prefer to be wined and dined before I get...

[wish12oz]

Let me get this straight. You want players to invest 1,000,000 xp for a weapon skill so they can deal mediocre, yet consistent, damage but if they want to deal "large amounts" of damage, they should continue to use a weapon skill that is eight years old and is available by natural skill at level 55? On what plane of reality does this make any sense whatsoever? You've given the thought process that went into nerfing these weapon skills but I want to hear the how the dev team justifies such a heavy cost in time for a weapon skill that is less effective at damage dealing than ones we already have.

If these weapon skills were based off natural skill, I would be cool with consistent damage and situational uses. When the cost is 10>15>20>25>30 merit progression, I'm not so forgiving. This is bullshit and quite frankly should be acquired with natural skill or scrapped altogether.

The utter contempt exhibited by these devs in their refusal to actually provide a suitable reward for time invested by players makes me feel stupid for giving SE money every month. Their fear of actually offering meaningful progression baffles me.



An explanation is in order. Don't feed me that mother fucking "balance" bullshit, we all know that's just a cover story now that your precious "PS2 Limitations" has been dispelled. All you're doing is fucking us over, the loyal paying customers, some of which have been playing for 9 or so years, dangling new pretties in front of us, making them somewhat passable; then we ask for them to be slightly increased in power to make them worthwhile and you instead nerf everything.

What in the fuck is wrong with you SE? Seriously, what have we done other than pay you year after year while simultaneously getting buttfucked?

We're not going to leave FFXI and play FFXIV if you make FFXI shittier than ever. If anything, it'll piss us off so much that we'll never subscribe to one of your games again.



Quoting this because it should really be said again.

Why the hell are you adding new weapon skills that require such a huge amount of work to acquire, and limiting the number of them you can have, when they're not as good as shit you naturally get 25 or 35 levels earlier? This is just plain stupid.

[Vold]

Lose the honey Gagotoki thought butyrate fine cuisine

WS who made the motion, I think people are allowed but the balance Bun殴Tsu Is what came up for me. I wish translate didn't suck. I also wish all those English Japanese speaking jokers online in game that seem like they're everywhere actually hung out here so they could inform us wtf is going on over on the JP forums time from time. I know one personally but he felt like quitting for a new job he picked up after finishing high school. I mean seriously wtf is THAT all about? Stupid jobs and money.

[Ruebyy]

Quoting this because it should really be said again.

Why the hell are you adding new weapon skills that require such a huge amount of work to acquire, and limiting the number of them you can have, when they're not as good as shit you naturally get 25 or 35 levels earlier? This is just plain stupid.
I say we should all go to the jp forums and rage together!~

[Samosa]

If the devs were worried that the new ws's would be too strong, did they consider making them usable only if you have 300tp?

[xbobx]

OH SE, you guys so funny, I darn near pooped myself.

[Amador]

So,

I was gonna quote everything basically. Make a nice neat post, bold, italicize, and underline things that popped out at me.

However, all of that just really doesn't quite say it.

People have very accurately expressed their feelings, have provided hard numbers, logic, eloquent verses of sarcasm and countless pictures that show Mr. Tanaka very much like we find pictures of George W. Bush on the internet.

If the development team is so insistent that these weapon skills require extensive penalties, weakening of, and lowering the practicality of these weapon skills. Then perhaps they should at least apply this train of thought to all current new merit-able weapon skills they have implemented.

Reason: Their current choices are "Jobist", lack the appeal towards various jobs, while favoring a select few. Effectively alienating a good percent of jobs.

Axe: Has been reduced to being more consistent than Rampage, however Weaker and less damaging than Rampage.

Club: Has been reduced to being weaker than Hexa Strike, realistically under all conditions due to attack penalties on jobs that could actually benefit from it, minus Warrior.

Sword: Should be readjusted so that it's power is not stronger than Sanguine Blade.

Polearm: Should be adjusted so that it's power is not stronger than Skewer.

Staff: Practical, but expecting it to be weakend to match the power of Retribution, and or Full Swing.

Scythe: Something that generally will have no application in a real time scenario or any type of event that allows for ease of MP management. Will generally only if at all ever be used on fodder content that means absolutely nothing.

Great Axe: Will more than likely and or should be weakened to match the power of Raging Rush.

Katana: Will more than likely be readjusted so that it's power doesn't surpass the power of Blade: Jin.

Archery: Will more than likely be adjusted so that it's power doesn't surpass that of Sidewinder.

Marksmanship: Will more than likely be adjusted so that it's power doesn't surpass that of Slug Shot.

Great Sword: Will more than likely be readjusted so that it's power is equal to or greater than that of Spinning Slash.

Great Katana: Will more than likely be readjusted so that it's power is equal to that of Trunks from DBZ cutting a a planet in half.

Hand to Hand: Will more than likely and or should be adjusted so that it's power does not surpass Howling Fist.

Dagger: Will more than likely and or should be adjusted so that it's power is not stronger than Dancing Edge.

These adjustments seem radical don't they?

This is the closest thing to what the Dev team is thinking, and it's disgusting. If a "Messenger" such as Camante stumbles upon posts, do you think that they quote or note down what the player base is arguing? Do they perhaps simply dash tally based on Negative and Positive Feed Back and have a safe number such as 66% Positive ='s go with it?

It's really redundant, I cannot believe they are pushing forward with this.

Camante post should have read: We're sorry. Due to the immense negative feedback we've gotten we will further consider our choice to change these weapon skills, and find a true not LAZY means of adjusting them fairly and correctly so that we do not seem like complete oblivious developers who have access to changing everything in the games code on a whim.

Your current choices, and work ethic seems lazy, lacks foresight and is really a half ass way to shake someone's hand and say: Thank you for playing this game for 10 years, we appreciate your money. We do not appreciate your opinion, or your concerns. Good day.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I sincerely doubt even SE could make Shattersoul worse than Retribution, but I have been wrong about SE before.

[Feliciaa]

I 100% agree with Amador and what others are saying. Why have WSs that require soo much time + exp to get if they are just going to be weaker/equal to stuff players learn at 50-75? The design team might as well not even waste the effort to even add them into the game...

For reaching the classic lvl 99 this is turning into something that is sadly very very underwhelming... And very lazy game design.

[Amador]

I sincerely doubt even SE could make Shattersoul worse than Retribution, but I have been wrong about SE before.

Have faith my friend, they would never let: Ultio Grip lose it's prowess in battle.

[Raksha]

Hey everyone, we’ve been looking over your feedback and wanted to give more details in the thought process behind our changes and some of the weapon skills themselves.
　　
Axe Weapon Skill “Ruinator”
We will be lowering the attack modifier value and changing it so it’s half of the current value. The amount of damage dealt to high level enemies (those that have high defense) will be reduced, however, being able to deal damage easier than other axe weapon skills will remain unchanged.

We are making it so that the amount of damage will be around the same as Rampage if you have full accuracy and get 2-3 criticals. (This is when both of them are executed at 100 TP. There is of course more damage that can be dealt depending on gear and food.)

We are making adjustments so that you can pick Ruinator if you want to deal more consistent damage, or Rampage if you want to try and deal large amounts of damage.
　
Club Weapon Skill “Realm Razer”
The idea behind the adjustment is the same as Ruinator.

We are making it so that the amount of damage will be around the same as Hexa Strike if you have full accuracy and get 2-3 criticals. Again, this is for 100 TP and more damage can be dealt depending on gear and food.

We ultimately decided to adjust this weapon skill due to the fact that a non-critical hit modifier weapon skill would easily surpass the maximum damage dealt by Hexa Strike in stable conditions, and the result would cause a rapid increase in damage inflation.
　　
Sword Weapon Skill “Requiescat”
Since Spirits Within’s damage varies based on your amount of HP and TP, we are adjusting Requiescat so that it will be easier to use than Spirits Within once you have 300 TP and also so that jobs that cannot boost their HP as high as paladins will be able to deal damage.

Also, Atonement is an easy to use weapon skill for paladins, which has a special feature, so the idea behind Requiescat was to give jobs other than paladin, specifically red mage and blue mage, a good weapon skill choice.
　
　
Hand-to-Hand Weapon Skill “Shijin Spiral”
There have been requests saying that this is weaker than Stringing Pummel and Victory Smite, so please make it stronger than both of those, but we cannot do this for the same reasons listed for our adjustments to Ruinator and Realm Razer.

We have also received some comments saying that the damage of Shijin Spiral is no different than Asuran Fists, or perhaps lower.

We took a look at the conditions of the players who performed weapon skill tests, but there are differences in attack power when executing each weapon skill, and because of this the result was that Asuran Fists and Victory Smite was higher.

Shijin Spiral is stronger than Asuran Fists and when boosting your stats using the appropriate equipment and food, the differences between Asuran Fists and Shijin Spiral will become more apparent, and the gap between Victory Smite and Shijin Spiral will also become smaller.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0 [billy madison speech]



What we should do is find the JP thread, and rate up every post that has lots of rate ups already.

EDIT: here it is

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/17510-dev1049-新たなウェポンスキルの追加-について-テストサーバ?p=242364#post242364

EDIT AGAIN: Poor Camate shoulda just stayed in bed this morning /comfort.

[starfxcker000]

Sword Weapon Skill “Requiescat”
Since Spirits Within’s damage varies based on your amount of HP and TP, we are adjusting Requiescat so that it will be easier to use than Spirits Within once you have 300 TP and also so that jobs that cannot boost their HP as high as paladins will be able to deal damage.

Also, Atonement is an easy to use weapon skill for paladins, which has a special feature, so the idea behind Requiescat was to give jobs other than paladin, specifically red mage and blue mage, a good weapon skill choice.

I don't think SE is aware that everything they've added in the past few years resists the crap out of Atonement and Spirits Within. That, and Blue Mages can achieve just as high, if not more, HP as Paladins due to the fact that we have breath spells (which is also resisted by everything they've added in the past few years) and now White Wind.

Why are the new weapon skills being compared to older weapon skills? We are higher level now... Shouldn't weapon skills learned at later levels be stronger than weapon skills we learned 40 levels earlier?

[Psxpert2011]

MNK= Dragon Punch, that's all I have to say.
(a multi-hit, fire, spinning upper-cut, not like street fighter but more flashier)

[Alhanelem]

We ultimately decided to adjust this weapon skill due to the fact that a non-critical hit modifier weapon skill would easily surpass the maximum damage dealt by Hexa Strike in stable conditions, and the result would cause a rapid increase in damage inflation.We've gained 24 levels... Damage should be inflating past what it was at 75, and it hasn't by very much.


Realmrazer : We don't know how they're changing it, but I'd bet they're dropping it to about a .6 fTP that's propagated through the hits. That way you end up with 4.8 fTP without gorget/belt or 6.4 fTP with gorget and belt instead of the current 8 base (including offhand in all cases).There must be something I don't understand about fTP- I thought it was simply a multiplier to the damage of a hit, which is usually based on the amount of TP you have on use. I thought that an fTP of less than 1 was therefore a damage penalty, and applying it to every hit meaning that every hit's damage would be reduced. How does .6 fTP add up to 4.8 then?

//genuinely confused- I feel like I must have never understood fTP correctly all this time.

Edit-

Damage = WD (http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/Base_Damage) * PDIF (http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/PDIF) = ( D (http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/Weapon_Base_Damage) + fSTR (http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/FSTR) + WSC (http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/WSC)) * fTP (http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/FTP) * PDIF (http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/PDIF)

fTP is a direct multiplier. a fTP of less than one applied to all hits means even less damage than if it was only applied to one hit, as far as I can tell. Normally, fTP is 1.0 for all hits after the first, but some of the new weapon skills apply their fTP to all hits.

[wish12oz]

How does .6 fTP add up to 4.8 then?

It's 0.6 fTP per hit. + 0.2 fTP per hit from gorget/belt, and it's a 6 hit weapon skill.
6*0.8=4.8

Generally speaking all extra hits on weapons add fTP+1 per hit, for these new WS's, when they have less then 1 fTP as the modifier for the first hit, the fTP carries over for all hits.

EDIT: I won.

[Nightfyre]

We've gained 24 levels... Damage should be inflating past what it was at 75, and it hasn't by very much.

There must be something I don't understand about fTP- I thought it was simply a multiplier to the damage of a hit, which is usually based on the amount of TP you have on use. I thought that an fTP of less than 1 was therefore a damage penalty, and applying it to every hit meaning that every hit's damage would be reduced. How does .6 fTP add up to 4.8 then?

//genuinely confused- I feel like I must have never understood fTP correctly all this time.

fTP normally applies to the first hit only, and any successive hits can be treated as having a fTP of 1 not affected by gorgets/belts. As such, you could say that Realmrazer has an effective fTP of 7.0 - the first hit is 1.0, then 6 more hits. 8.0 if dual-wielding or you get a multiattack proc, but can't go higher than that due to the 8 hits/round cap. Some of the new WS however use the first hit's fTP, gorget/belt included, on all hits. If the first hit was given an fTP of 0.6 and this was applied to all hits, the effective fTP of the base WS thus becomes 0.6*7=4.2. I'm guessing he was assuming dual wielding (reasonable enough, WHM makes great use of multihit offhands), so 4.8. Add in gorget and belt, 0.8*8=6.4.

[Insaniac]

Maybe the concern is that jobs like SAM are on Polearm and WAR is on club and they don't want those jobs outclassing or keeping up with the main users of those weapons. If that's the case maybe they should just remove the extra jobs from these WSs instead of making them shitty for everyone. These are all gonna end up as WSs that people merit because they don't have access to the best native WS for that weapon. Which is stupid as fuck. I can't think of any reason to spend merits on any of these WSs for any of my jobs other than dagger and I'm hesitant to mention it because they will probably nerf it now.

[Alhanelem]

fTP normally applies to the first hit only, and any successive hits can be treated as having a fTP of 1 not affected by gorgets/belts. As such, you could say that Realmrazer has an effective fTP of 7.0 - the first hit is 1.0, then 6 more hits.I don't get this still. So you're basically saying that the fTP of all hits is added together into one value? I thought that, ignoring the other things that a weapon skill does to the damage of a hit, a (example) 0.7 fTP meant 70% of normal damage on that hit. Thus meaning every hit would do 70% normal damage if it propgated- meaning less damage than if it didn't propgate.

So is basically what you're saying is that the total damage for the whole WS with fTP 0.7 (all hits combined into one damage total as is done for weapon skills) would have an effective fTP of 4.8, do I understand that right? Because that still sounds bad when you consider multi hit WS that existed prior were effectively 1.0 on all hits after the first, so a 7 hit WS would effectively be 6.0 + whatever th fTP is for the first hit. In other words, a fTP of less than one propgating to all hits still means the weapon skill is worse than if it didn't propgate.


EDIT: I won. You "won?" Was someone calling you wrong? I was saying I didn't understand- I wasn't calling you wrong, nor did anyone else that I'm aware of.

Edit: Or do you simply mean that you beat the other poster to the punch?

[Zohnax]

@Devs, I really don't see the logic in trying to "balance" new content for a higher level to that of years and dozens of levels past. Usually in a video game, when you level up, you get stronger. Sometimes, you get new abilities/weapon skills, and usually, they're STRONGER as you get higher leveled. No one is going to want to waste 100 merits, let alone 10, on WSs for their favorite jobs if they're crap WSs and do worse than WSs they already got for free back at level 50-60. It's crap like this that builds on players until eventually they say,"Screw this," and go to another game. Now, I'm all for a slim concept of balancing jobs to an extent, but comparing age old content to new age is flat out idiotic.

[xiozen]

There must be something I don't understand about fTP- I thought it was simply a multiplier to the damage of a hit, which is usually based on the amount of TP you have on use. I thought that an fTP of less than 1 was therefore a damage penalty, and applying it to every hit meaning that every hit's damage would be reduced. How does .6 fTP add up to 4.8 then?

//genuinely confused- I feel like I must have never understood fTP correctly all this time.

Edit-

Damage = WD (http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/Base_Damage) * PDIF (http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/PDIF) = ( D (http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/Weapon_Base_Damage) + fSTR (http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/FSTR) + WSC (http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/WSC)) * fTP (http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/FTP) * PDIF (http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/PDIF)

fTP is a direct multiplier. a fTP of less than one applied to all hits means even less damage than if it was only applied to one hit, as far as I can tell. Normally, fTP is 1.0 for all hits after the first, but some of the new weapon skills apply their fTP to all hits.

This... /end

[Insaniac]

Something they keep saying is that we can enhance the new WSs with gear. What does that even mean? You can do that with any WS. I'm pretty sure I can use attack double attack and STR gear with rampage so what is their point? How does that make things any better?

Where do they expect most of these WSs to be used? Most of them will be completely worthless on anything that your attack isn't capped on. So are these WSs built to destroy TW mobs? I just don't get it. What is the point of releasing new WSs that will be worthless on new content? Why even waste time creating them?

[Alhanelem]

Well, techically, you can interpret it the way the other people are, but basically, a WS with 7 hits and no propgation of FTP would be at least 6.x overall (x being the fTP of the first hit if it's less than 1). a 0.7 fTP propgating to all hits would be 4.8 if added together, essentially making the WS inferior to other multi-hit WS, ignoring stat modifiers (Yes, the new WS have large stat modifiers when fully merited, but is this enough to offset the crappy fTP?)

The long and short of it is, applying a <1.0 fTP to more hits means less damage than if it's not applied to more hits. Damage decreases with the propogation, not increases.


Something they keep saying is that we can enhance the new WSs with gear. What does that even mean?There are magian weapon skills that (at certain stages) increase damage of specific weaponskills, so it stands to reason that they'll be adding more gear that enhances specific weaponskills rather than just boosting the stat values that we use to enhance our damage.

[Greatguardian]

That's correct. The fTP carry-over is a nerf for all WS with <=0.8 fTP. It could only be a buff for a WS with >0.8 fTP because Gorget/Belt fTP bonuses carry over on all of the WS whose fTP carries over into multiple hits.

[Alhanelem]

That's correct. The fTP carry-over is a nerf for all WS with <=0.8 fTP. It could only be a buff for a WS with >0.8 fTP because Gorget/Belt fTP bonuses carry over on all of the WS whose fTP carries over into multiple hits.
Shocking, that means I actually did understand something correctly for once. :D

I suppose technically they might introduce more fTP-boosting gear, which essentially means that any such gear is more effective on these new WS than on the ones that came before it.

[Nightfyre]

I don't get this still. So you're basically saying that the fTP of all hits is added together into one value?
I'm saying you can look at it that way for simplicity's sake. It may or may not be mechanically accurate, but it's functionally equivalent as long as you bear in mind the base damage of an offhand weapon for that one hit, should it be relevant. You can also use this to represent the functional damage increase of DA/TA with respect to their procrates. 20% DA will raise average effective fTP by 0.2 per chance to hit on weaponskills where fTP doesn't propagate (so 0.4 on multihit ws given the second chance to proc), etc. Gives a better idea of the impact of gorgets/belts.


I thought that, ignoring the other things that a weapon skill does to the damage of a hit, a (example) 0.7 fTP meant 70% of normal damage on that hit. Thus meaning every hit would do 70% normal damage if it propgated- meaning less damage than if it didn't propgate.
That's correct. Given that Realmrazer is getting nerfed, it was simply that poster's speculation on how they might go abobut implementing that nerf.


So is basically what you're saying is that the total damage for the whole WS with fTP 0.7 (all hits combined into one damage total as is done for weapon skills) would have an effective fTP of 4.8, do I understand that right? Because that still sounds bad when you consider multi hit WS that existed prior were effectively 1.0 on all hits after the first, so a 7 hit WS would effectively be 6.0 + whatever th fTP is for the first hit. In other words, a fTP of less than one propgating to all hits still means the weapon skill is worse than if it didn't propgate.
Right. This is why Stardiver and Entropy are weaker than otherwise expected. Resolution and Shun will probably take on this characteristic when the update hits given previous dev commentary. Jishnu's Radiance and Last Stand on the other hand benefit greatly from it because they have 1.75 and 2.0 fTP/hit, respectively.


Edit: Or do you simply mean that you beat the other poster to the punch?
Probably this, lol.

EDIT: beaten again >.>

[SpankWustler]

Hey everyone, we’ve been looking over your feedback and wanted to give more details in the thought process behind our changes and some of the weapon skills themselves.
　　
Axe Weapon Skill “Ruinator”
We will be lowering the attack modifier value and changing it so it’s half of the current value. The amount of damage dealt to high level enemies (those that have high defense) will be reduced, however, being able to deal damage easier than other axe weapon skills will remain unchanged.

We are making it so that the amount of damage will be around the same as Rampage if you have full accuracy and get 2-3 criticals. (This is when both of them are executed at 100 TP. There is of course more damage that can be dealt depending on gear and food.)

We are making adjustments so that you can pick Ruinator if you want to deal more consistent damage, or Rampage if you want to try and deal large amounts of damage.
　
Club Weapon Skill “Realm Razer”
The idea behind the adjustment is the same as Ruinator.

We are making it so that the amount of damage will be around the same as Hexa Strike if you have full accuracy and get 2-3 criticals. Again, this is for 100 TP and more damage can be dealt depending on gear and food.

We ultimately decided to adjust this weapon skill due to the fact that a non-critical hit modifier weapon skill would easily surpass the maximum damage dealt by Hexa Strike in stable conditions, and the result would cause a rapid increase in damage inflation.
　　
Sword Weapon Skill “Requiescat”
Since Spirits Within’s damage varies based on your amount of HP and TP, we are adjusting Requiescat so that it will be easier to use than Spirits Within once you have 300 TP and also so that jobs that cannot boost their HP as high as paladins will be able to deal damage.

Also, Atonement is an easy to use weapon skill for paladins, which has a special feature, so the idea behind Requiescat was to give jobs other than paladin, specifically red mage and blue mage, a good weapon skill choice.

A Player and a Developer walked along a beach.

The Player looked back and said, "You know, Developer, there's only one set of footprints during all of the worst periods of FFXI. They're kind of staggered and crooked, too."

The Developer smiled and replied, "During the worst times, I was riding on your back and whipping you with a stick and laughing."

[Selzak]

So I cancelled my ID for the month because of finals, and it's getting harder and harder to bring myself to reactivate it.

Honestly, I think SE has just become devoid of creativity. Since Enix, it's been going downhill and I guess they're just at the bottom of the pit now. I won't even get started with SE games as a whole (FFXIV especially), but in FFXI it's gone from lacking the creativity to solve problems and balance jobs:

DRKs found a way to take advantage of their 2-hour on end-game content? Hmm...well just make HNMs resist Souleater. That'll "fix" it.

There's a RDM soloing a few HNMs? Hmm...well just make mobs resist enfeebles. That'll "fix"it.

The jobs aren't balanced now and some jobs are just flat-out useless? Hmm...well let's just pick a few and focus on them so everyone will play what we want them to. Samurais are cool, right?

To the point that our limit break quests are poop jokes and end game "content" is a mixture of fetch quests and pseudorandom number generators...that all take place in copy/pasted versions of old zones.

[Koroma]

　　
Axe Weapon Skill “Ruinator”
We Realized we gave BST a WeaponSkill that wasn't useless we Deeply apologize for our Glaring oversight and shall endevor to fix this, by making it not worth using like the Empyeran Axe WeaponSkill

Fixed That For You.

[Darkvalkyr]

Square Enix is making me want to chew some rat poison right now.

Actually, this is so bad it's not worth it.

[Alerith]

...someone please, PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong but...

Did they try to justify Requiescat being shit for Paladin because Paladin has Atonement?

SERIOUSLY?!

When was the last time Atonement was even remotely useful? 75 cap with Joyeuse?

[Babekeke]

All that I get from this is that you are supposed to choose these weaponskills as the 'next best thing' for jobs that don't get the current best WS.
If you only use sword on PLD, don't bother meriting requiescat, if you only use club on WHM, don't bother meriting Realm Razor. However, Realm Razor on PLD will be pretty good now, especially since Moepapa Mace has more base damage than even 95 Almace or Excalibur. Very good option for vs Bones/Pots etc.

[Kalilla]

All that I get from this is that you are supposed to choose these weaponskills as the 'next best thing' for jobs that don't get the current best WS.
If you only use sword on PLD, don't bother meriting requiescat, if you only use club on WHM, don't bother meriting Realm Razor. However, Realm Razor on PLD will be pretty good now, especially since Moepapa Mace has more base damage than even 95 Almace or Excalibur. Very good option for vs Bones/Pots etc.
No other job had any right to fuck with what WHM had to itself, we don't even get to melee in main content unless it's for a quick proc.

It's complete bullshit that they are giving jobs a 7 hit club ws regardless if it is as good as hexa or not. That bullshit pisses me off and to add to that they made it so WHM wouldn't benefit from meriting it. It is a complete slap in the face and a fuck you to all melee whm's.

Anyone remember those job previews years ago of them saying they promise that they will find a way to bring whm's to the front lines?

Fucking lazy. Another job isn't a fucking solution, it is completely twisted around so they do the exact opposite and ignore WHM melee.

Yes I'm jealous, 10% jealous, 80% angry as hell, 5% confused as to why SE thinks this is a good idea and why they think this way, 5% not surprised.

[Francisco]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v285/MrBill82x/tanaka2.jpg

Balance is important.

[Karbuncle]

I wonder what the Reps would say if they could talk freely about how they feel about these changes.

Like, They all say they play the game, You sometimes think they look at what they're told to post and go "you're joking right?"

I can't imagine they find much joy in telling us "oh, Remember those 100 Merit Weaponskills that were introduced that were slightly passable? they're nerfing them to be useless and weaker than the same weaponskills you've been using for the last decade"

[Insaniac]

I like that picture but I think on one side of the pole should be a box labeled "fun" and the other side should be a box labeled "worthless bullshit"

[Economizer]

Anyone remember those job previews years ago of them saying they promise that they will find a way to bring whm's to the front lines?

Fucking lazy. Another job isn't a fucking solution, it is completely twisted around so they do the exact opposite and ignore WHM melee.

I pretty much gave up on being able to melee during party content back when Abyssea came out and we had this situation:

Standing close to a mob will get you killed by AoE spam.
More then two people hitting a mob will kill many groups from TP spam.

Short of White Mage's Magic Defense Bonus trait, there isn't really much that protects them at the front lines, and even then mobs that spam magical AoE still do huge numbers against White Mages, or even just spam physical damage AoE. And even then, TP feed is about the number one killer of groups these days, so groups that might even want to allow a White Mage to hit things is further disuaded.

On top of all this, being in a decent melee set that is also good for healing in isn't as much as a possibility as it was at 75 cap, because you are expected to cap out Cure Potency and few people even consider the benefit of haste on recast timers. Pulling out decent damage dealing clubs pretty much cuts you down 25% cure potency from not holding either a staff or a pair of cure potency clubs, which is also a major blow to being a competent healer while doing any amount of damage worth feeding TP for.

I could go on, but the deck is stacked hard against White Mages meleeing things down short of fighting groups of weaker mobs, and even then, it still is pretty hard to compete with others even when you are only there for Shellra, barspells and the occasional cure. At least when there is a Red Mage melee, it has tier 2 enspells that enfeeble the mob a tiny bit, and you know how well regarded that spell line was...

I suppose we should just be happy they are thinking about our melee side at all, and that we're still on the best clubs in the game. I can somewhat respect their reasoning even if it wasn't the best solution, but it kinda sucks just to get another sidegrade. Shoot, even look at the White Mage only gloves (level 98) that are on the test server. They are pretty much a merger of the AF1+1 gloves and NQ Blessed gloves. Basically, disappointing... they could have at least made them replace the HQ Blessed gloves too.

-

For the overworked Moogle who is reading this right now, I'll say this. I can respect wanting to maintain balance, but when gear that have twenty-eight levels on other gear is slightly worse then the gear you get twenty-eight levels before it just so you can carry one piece of gear instead of two, there is a problem.

On the weapon skills, I don't mind even the current changes we're being told so much as long as we're not limited to only being able to merit 15 points between 14 merits. Please don't limit the merits we can allocate to them in any way - this alone would do a lot since they seem to be "situational" compared to existing weapon skills. Beyond that, please promise us more weapon skills in the future (or at very least a quest to upgrade the old ones we have), I understand they may take a long time, but I think it would do much to put many of us more at ease.

Hey, and as a secret between us, I'll give each one of you a Kupo Nut if you can quitely fly to the servers and secretly buff Hexa Strike without the dev team finding out.

[Kalilla]

Oh believe me, I never expected us to do anything like that really. I know my limits and I think it get's fun when you're barely past your limits, but anymore is just dumb.

I used that example because it has been stuck in my head ever since they said it. So many empty promises and now they just give the WS we love to everyone with an additional hit but make it so we wouldn't do as much with it as we would with hexa.

It just annoys me to no end :(

[Rubicant82]

What happened to these WS

Player(s): "Wow! we actually get to have fun again and have nice things!"
meanwhile in the Dev room an alarm sounds and red light start to flash.
Dev#1: The new weapon skills are bringing joy to the players!
Dev#2: Oh no! We must fix this! Quick nerf everything useful!
Dev#3: Send Camate an e-mail with the notes tell him to pull something out of his a$$ to justify this... They will listen to him!




Seriously Dev team please pull your heads out of your rears, your game is on the verge of collapse because you claim to listen to us but you don't. This awesome game that many of us have been playing for the better part of a decade is about to hit a monuments milestone... and you YOU the DEV TEAM are jacking it up because of "balance"...
It's level 99 it's not supposed to be balanced! at 99 we should be able to walk into anything and kill it with out question except content tailored directly for level 99s. Look at it this way... Every FF game I've every played you got to 99 you were almost unstoppable... I say that because there is always pesky things like doom and death but still 99 the final weapons skills should be overpowered and cost a bunch that is what makes them THE END GAME WEAPON SKILLS.

[Saiken253]

haha I could totally see that happening with the devs. and I agree, the "final weaponskill" that the devs are claiming these are SHOULD at least curb-stomp all other WSs of their type.

[Chamaan]

I for one applaud them for doing the right thing and preserving the integrity of these classic WS. I only wish they'd take it a step further and bring glory back to such once-great WS as Sturmwind and Combo. -80% Attack Bonus for everything except Wasp Sting, I say!

[Insaniac]

Let's add accuracy penalties too and allow them to go past the floor so if you do new WS on something with high evasion you have a 0% hit rate.

[Runespider]

Last update they added a spell BLM have drooled over since FFXI came out, it cost 2-3mill, and basically sucked (but looks pretty).
They just released an interview that stated content from now on is going to be all about balance, and that the last 2 years was a mistake.
We have a guy in charge now that during his proper FFXI reign was all about sidegrades/balance/boring content made simply to keep us playing as long as possible as cheaply as possible.
The new premier content is Voidwatch (logwatch).
The playerbase is now being completely ignored unless it goes inline with what the leadership of FFXI wants to do anyway (unlike during abyssea), even the JP players.

All of the above since balance guy came back and anyone expected these WS (or any content from now on) to be good or indeed expect all this complaining to do ANYTHING at all? Tanaka will ignore all the rage over this and VW with the same skill he ignored the beta testers for 14, it's how he likes to run the games he is currently ruining.

Did you guys forgot how much we all complained about HNM, salvage drop rates etc before Abyssea? Thats where we are again, no amount of complaining, no amount of likes will change how these WS are and you should all know that. Tanaka thinks he knows best and even failing 14 taught him nothing, he still operates the same way.

The problem isn't that they don't make good content, it's that someone is sticking his nose into it at the end and ruining it before implementation.

[Prothscar]

Goes passed 0%. Every time you miss a hit with a negative hitrate, you hit yourself.

[Greatguardian]

Goes passed 0%. Every time you miss a hit with a negative hitrate, you hit yourself.

Playerbase is Confused.

Playerbase hurt itself in its confusion!

[hiko]

Why are the new weapon skills being compared to older weapon skills? We arehigher level now... Shouldn't weapon skills learned at later levels be stronger than weapon skills we learned 40 levels earlier?
little fix:
weapon skills learned at later levels HAVE TO be stronger than weapon skills we learned 40 levels earlier
evene more when you need 1MXP to max em.

imo 1merit WS should be on par with previous "base" WS with reworking the merit value effect:
lvl1 42.5%wsc (50*.85)
then +10.625 per merit

[Quetzacoatl]

Okay...That's it. I really, really do have to ask, now that we have more nerfs coming on...

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b244/FenreyVarnFFXI/Outside%20FFXI/GeneStarwindWTF.png

Square-Enix, reducing damage dealt on these weapon skills is NON-NEGOTIABLE. "BALANCE" SHOULD NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT. Leave them be as they were, or you all are going to be facing some serious backlash (even though you're already getting it).

NONE OF THESE WEAPON SKILLS SHOULD BE ANY LESS POWERFUL THAN THE SAME LEVEL 60 WEAPON SKILLS WE'VE BEEN USING FOR YEARS. NERFING THE MERIT WEAPON SKILLS DOES NOT ALLOW THEM TO "HAVE A LITTLE BITE," LIKE YOU SAY ABOUT ENDGAME CONTENT RIDDLED WITH DESIGN FLAWS. THIS IS OUTRIGHT STUPID.

I leave this thread in total frustration with a depiction of where these nerfs have lead to:

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b244/FenreyVarnFFXI/Outside%20FFXI/1134134856515.jpg

[Urteil]

Okay, here we go again:

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c5/Sakaio/wtfisthisshit.jpg

I like how they didn't even mention Entropy.

They can't possibly come up with BS to make that seem logical.

I'd like to see them try.


SE seems to think that if they explain their thinking behind things that somehow instantly makes it okay!

[Aleste]

Club Weapon Skill “Realm Razer”
The idea behind the adjustment is the same as Ruinator.

We are making it so that the amount of damage will be around the same as Hexa Strike if you have full accuracy and get 2-3 criticals. Again, this is for 100 TP and more damage can be dealt depending on gear and food.

We ultimately decided to adjust this weapon skill due to the fact that a non-critical hit modifier weapon skill would easily surpass the maximum damage dealt by Hexa Strike in stable conditions, and the result would cause a rapid increase in damage inflation.


After how disappointing Dagan was for an empyrean weapon skill, I can't say I'm too surprised. Gee, thanks SE...

Also, is it just me, or did mystic boon get ninja-patched? It's been dealing about 50-75% of what I recall it used to be capable of.

[Frost]

According to Square-Enix logic....

There should be no Dagger Weapon Skill stronger than Wasp Sting.

There should be no Sword Weapon Skill stronger than Fast Blade.

There should be no Katana Weapon Skill stronger than Blade: Rin.

There should be no Great Sword Weapon Skill stronger than Power Slash.

There should be no Club Weapon Skill stronger than Shining Strike.

There should be no Hand-to-hand Weapon Skill stronger than Combo.

There should be no Great Katana Weapon Skill stronger than Tachi: Enpi.

There should be no Great Axe Weapon Skill stronger than Shield Break.

There should be no Axe Weapon Skill stronger than Raging Axe.

There should be no Staff Weapon Skill stronger than Heavy Swing.

There should be no Polearm Weapon Skill stronger than Double Thrust.

There should be no Scythe Weapon Skill stronger than Slice.

There should be no Marksmanship or Archery Weapon Skills stronger than Hot Shot or Flaming Arrow.


Square, if you can refute anything I've said here, then you've just made my point.

[Calysto]

i don't get how it is balancing.

basicaly, they are giving some jobs others weapons options with "decent" weaponskills.
there's no ballance here. that's just keeping the status quo to me.(sam being ahead seems to be part of it XD )

taking club as an exemple. why not just add hexa strike to the jobs that are on "realmrazer" ? i mean, if it's supposed to do the same...

also. the ws look great, sure, they have "badass" names, but at this rate, you should really reconsider the naming. i mean "realmrazer", "ruinator", "stardiver", etc... better called "wallrazer", "ruin", "bridgediver", etc...

SE better fix existing WSs before adding new flawed WSs.

[Finuve]

I don't understand why SE would take so much time creating completely new animations, new effects, and a new system for unlocking Weapon skills, when the playerbase will not be using any of them

[Frost]

Well what gets me is the jobs that benefit most form these weaponskills, now have even less reason to even bother with them...

Case and point: Whm.

You got a nice new Club Weaponskill to use.
They nerf it to less than Hexastrike.
Now there's no reason to merit it.

The logic is flawed...

Do they think now that Warrior and Paladin gets access to a good Club Weaponskill, they're going to forgo their 'A' weapons, and the new weaponskills for those 'A' weapons in favor of a club?

No...

The person that's going to benefit form the Club weaponskill is the one that uses Clubs, Whm... And I bet you a dozen Donuts those Whms are were looking forward to being able to use something different than they've been using for EIGHT YEARS....

[doctorugh]

I wonder if those who put so much time into creating animations get pissed that they will rarely (if ever) get used due to developers idea of "balance". Like telling an artist their artwork work is beautiful but will only being showing it in the basement of a burned out building in a dangerous area.

http://hucknet.pl/balance.jpg

[noodles355]

Hey everyone, we’ve been looking over your feedback and wanted to give more details in the thought process behind our changes and some of the weapon skills themselves.
　　
Axe Weapon Skill “Ruinator”
We will be lowering the attack modifier value and changing it so it’s half of the current value. The amount of damage dealt to high level enemies (those that have high defense) will be reduced, however, being able to deal damage easier than other axe weapon skills will remain unchanged.

We are making it so that the amount of damage will be around the same as Rampage if you have full accuracy and get 2-3 criticals. (This is when both of them are executed at 100 TP. There is of course more damage that can be dealt depending on gear and food.)

We are making adjustments so that you can pick Ruinator if you want to deal more consistent damage, or Rampage if you want to try and deal large amounts of damage.
　
Club Weapon Skill “Realm Razer”
The idea behind the adjustment is the same as Ruinator.

We are making it so that the amount of damage will be around the same as Hexa Strike if you have full accuracy and get 2-3 criticals. Again, this is for 100 TP and more damage can be dealt depending on gear and food.

We ultimately decided to adjust this weapon skill due to the fact that a non-critical hit modifier weapon skill would easily surpass the maximum damage dealt by Hexa Strike in stable conditions, and the result would cause a rapid increase in damage inflation.
　　
Sword Weapon Skill “Requiescat”
Since Spirits Within’s damage varies based on your amount of HP and TP, we are adjusting Requiescat so that it will be easier to use than Spirits Within once you have 300 TP and also so that jobs that cannot boost their HP as high as paladins will be able to deal damage.

Also, Atonement is an easy to use weapon skill for paladins, which has a special feature, so the idea behind Requiescat was to give jobs other than paladin, specifically red mage and blue mage, a good weapon skill choice.
　
　
Hand-to-Hand Weapon Skill “Shijin Spiral”
There have been requests saying that this is weaker than Stringing Pummel and Victory Smite, so please make it stronger than both of those, but we cannot do this for the same reasons listed for our adjustments to Ruinator and Realm Razer.

We have also received some comments saying that the damage of Shijin Spiral is no different than Asuran Fists, or perhaps lower.

We took a look at the conditions of the players who performed weapon skill tests, but there are differences in attack power when executing each weapon skill, and because of this the result was that Asuran Fists and Victory Smite was higher.

Shijin Spiral is stronger than Asuran Fists and when boosting your stats using the appropriate equipment and food, the differences between Asuran Fists and Shijin Spiral will become more apparent, and the gap between Victory Smite and Shijin Spiral will also become smaller.
Cheers Camate, but could you possibly get a comment out of the dev team regarding the polearm and scythe WS?

Penta Thrust and Drakesbane already have large attack penalties. Geirskogul, Camlann's Torment and Sonic Thrust are essentially the same WS with different modifiers. And now Stardiver has a very low FTP which is carried accross all hits instead of just the first hit. Why is dragoon constantly shafted on weaponskills?

A lot of jobs have good empyrean weaponskills. Dragoon was not one of them. It was given a Geirskogul Mk.2. Geirskogul was already a crap WS. Why did SE feel the need to give it a different animation and a different secondary attribute (Vit instead of Agi) but still keep it as essentially the same WS?

Penta Thrust had an attack penalty. Dragoon already has relatively low attack compared to other two-handed DDs (Drk gets Attack Bonus, War get Berserk, Samurai gets to sub /WAR for berserk without sacrificing it's damage). Then SE decides to throw us a bone with Drakesbane.

4.00 FTP, 50% STR, Can crit.

That sounds like an awesome WS. Finally, Dragoon has a weaponskill that will help it keep up with other two-handed DDs.

Except then they decide to slap a huge -19% Attack penalty on it? Oh yeah but it's fine because we'll give you Wyvern emotes. You're trolling right?

Ok, the last weaponskills. Merit weaponskills. A chance for Dragoon to finally get a good weaponskill to make up for the fact that SE has gimped all of our other ones.

And then you go and make it 0.75FTP accross all four hits. Are you serious? First you give us a pretty Mythic WS that has a huge attack penalty, then you give us our Empyrean WS which is just a copy of our Relic WS (which was already crap). Then you give us another copy of our Relic WS but make it AoE... And then finally you give us a WS which is so weak that even with 5/5 merits it's still worse than all the others we have.

You know what? Screw it. I've got B- skill in Staff. Why bother using a lance at all? I'm going to merit Shattersoul.

[Laxedrane]

Man I just checked out the test server update. Fired up realmrazor. It's doing exactly the damage they wanted it to do compared to hexa. AKa the same exact damage.

I have never been so excited for something in this game for years. Last time I was this stocked was when I finally got mystic boon after spending 6 days of my unemployed existence unlocking it on floor 40. That was at least 4 years ago.

I've never been on such a high and throw into utter demoralization in any video game I've played. This is seriously strike 2 for me, strike 1 was that interview. I'll definitely be one of those people jumping ship before it pulls into the sea of endless shit hoping for the sparkling sunset of bibiki bay on the other side.

It's like if square was a friend who set up on a date with amazingly gorgeous guy with a great personality a sultry voice and a great job. Talked to him, met him, 2 days before the date square calls and says he started going out with him instead but he found someone just as good! So I show up and... It's a woman. FML.

Utter stupidity. They bring the dude that ran the game into the ground before back. That. Makes. No. Sense.

[ThaiChi]

Dear Devs, if there's this much negative reaction in regards to the adjustments planned to the merit weaponskills, why bother? It seems like (in my situation as a Ninja main), in your pursuit of "balance" you would have me favor a weapon skill I learned at level 60 all the way up to 99. Why is it so "unbalanced" to give the players something to be excited about? You gave us relic class weapons with the empyreans and most of the weaponskills were something that made the players clamor about playing again. Then you give us content that is actually challenging in voidwatch, but give this dichotomy of: get an empyrean weaponskill, or stick with your old bread and butter WS. NIN is lucky in this respect, Blade: Hi is a good weaponskill, and is a logical step up from Jin. Which now begs the question, why should I bother with the meritted WS, something many Empyrean owners may consider themselves. Non-empyrean holders, take for example my BLU, does not have an Almace, nor do I plan on making one, I'm stuck with ONLY Vorpal Blade as the only half-way decent weaponskill. The new merit WS actually gave us a prospect of having the potential to do damage outside of our spells but now we get some really neutered version of Atonement. A friend of mine said it best when talking about what it seems like the devs plan out content for us, "Oh look, they're actually enjoying the game... we can't be having that..." I don't even know if I had a point to what I'm saying (I started typing this at 4am in the middle of running Nyzul), I'm just outraged at the devs, and it would seem it's the same on both sides of the pacific. What is the point if having these forums up if they ask us for what we want, and don't bother listening to us at all?

[HimuraKenshyn]

100 merits for a shitty ws I really now believe the DEVS are tired of working on this game and are trying to KILL it off but call it BALANCE balance my a$$. Just like the abyssea thread the hand writings on the wall on how out of touch these guys really are just wow....

[Laxedrane]

This is the basic line of logic I am seeing. Axe and Club do not have a great damage dealing Relic, mythic, or empyreon. Some decent utility weapon skills in there but no great damaging ones. So we are going to balance these skills against their strongest skill Hexa and Rampage.

Lance strongest skill is Drakesbane. We will match that damage.

Sam strongest weaponskill is Tachi: Fudo We will balance against that.

Now square did we forget that weapon skills not only need to be balanced inside their own weapon classes but against other weapon classes as well? As it stands the odds of you adding another ultimate weapon series is low as such this is it for these weapon classes. So, forget white mage it's fun to melee but let's look at this seriously for a moment.

Fuck beast becuase we had the poor planning to give them an elemental weapon skill as both their mythic and empyreon and we made relic weapon skill suck so they can suck on eggs becuase we will never give them a weapon skill they can use to compete with jobs in other weapon classes? Sword is in almost as bad of a boat since while empyreon is good it definitely not lighting the world on fire. Then mages can all collectively jump off a bridge get the *%& back into the kitchen I mean the back line and cast magic only. Is this really your vision square? Does this really seem balanced? Your logic is so flawed it's worrisome.

[Brolic]

100 merits for a shitty ws I really now believe the DEVS are tired of working on this game and are trying to KILL it off but call it BALANCE balance my a$$. Just like the abyssea thread the hand writings on the wall on how out of touch these guys really are just wow....

100 merits is a thing? i've wasted 100 merits last week from doing vw\abyssea just by being capped.

[Frost]

The real problem is that the devs really lack any perspective.

If the game fails, they will just say "It failed because it was an old game", giving no thought into what they did to destroy it. Then they will make a new game with that ego and wonder why it fails...

Oh wait... that is exactly what happened with Final Fantasy XIV!

Open your eyes Square... You're screwing up again and you can't even see it because of your pride and ego. You were doing good for a while, but you're slipping back into your old habits.

[Brolic]

I don't get the big outrage? free\easy to learn weaponskills aren't as good as the ones that come attached to weapons. seems ok to me

[Finuve]

I don't get the big outrage? free\easy to learn weaponskills aren't as good as the ones that come attached to weapons. seems ok to me

please read thread and attempt to comprehend it

NO ONE is saying these weapon skills should be more powerful than Empy WSs, what people are saying is that these weapons skills should be more powerful than Hexa Strike, Vorpal Blade, Raging Rush, Sidewinder, Slug Shot, Guillotine, Blade: Jin, Tachi: Gekko, Penta Thrust, Asuran Fists, as well as (when not using a mythic weapon) Insurgency, Stringing Pummel, Drakesbane ETC ETC ETC

this takes into account outside abyssea and no relic mythic or empyrean weapon

we've been using these same weapon skills for 8 years and for 35 (going to be 39) levels, we NEED a change, there is no balance here, there is progression, our WSs SHOULD be stronger, and if making them stronger means having to buff Empy/Mythic/Relic WSs then so be it, just buff the new challenges that are coming to compensate

[Zemarin]

People literally MOAN about EVERY LITTLE THING.... (My favorite Weapon doesn't do the Weapon Skill that does the most Damage) It's getting Tired. Then there's (OMG I can change jobs but I can't Min Max all of them cuz i cant get ALL the Merited WS's to FULL DAMAGE).... FFXI's NA Player Base is prolly just as bad or maybe worse than WoW's....
Oh ya and like the guy above me QQin about how their WS's aint stronger.. I guess having WS's that do "slug shot dmg" and close/open Darkness and light is just horrible. I mean for a game where WS's are meant to be Skill chained ppl are easy to cry than to understand that

2000+2000~3000 is > 2000+500~1000

[Runespider]

I don't get the big outrage? free\easy to learn weaponskills aren't as good as the ones that come attached to weapons. seems ok to me

Personally I hate that they add the most beautiful cool looking WS ever and make them crap to the point you won't even use them, make them harder to get if needbe but for christs sake make them worth using.

As it is they will be no more useful that job emotes, all that effort into new exciting content and they fluff it up making them suck.

[Brolic]

please read thread and attempt to comprehend it

NO ONE is saying these weapon skills should be more powerful than Empy WSs, what people are saying is that these weapons skills should be more powerful than Hexa Strike, Vorpal Blade, Raging Rush, Sidewinder, Slug Shot, Guillotine, Blade: Jin, Tachi: Gekko, Penta Thrust, Asuran Fists, as well as (when not using a mythic weapon) Insurgency, Stringing Pummel, Drakesbane ETC ETC ETC

this takes into account outside abyssea and no relic mythic or empyrean weapon

we've been using these same weapon skills for 8 years and for 35 (going to be 39) levels, we NEED a change, there is no balance here, there is progression, our WSs SHOULD be stronger, and if making them stronger means having to buff Empy/Mythic/Relic WSs then so be it, just buff the new challenges that are coming to compensate

Actually i have not, i've been using the same ws since i got my alamce, since i got my ukkon and since i got my kanagi.

jin, raging rush and atonement went bye bye, likewise if u dont like using the same ws for 8 years, get a relic\empy

[Finuve]

Actually i have not, i've been using the same ws since i got my alamce, since i got my ukkon and since i got my kanagi.

jin, raging rush and atonement went bye bye, likewise if u dont like using the same ws for 8 years, get a relic\empyI have an empy u twit

Empy weapon skills should be more powerful than merit, NO ONE is arguing that, what people are arguing is the fact that 14(?) useless Weapon skills just got added to the game, WSs that could have easily solved the problem that the majority of the population (read: non empy/relic/mythic wielders) is still using the same WSs they have been for 8 years

and to the other poster, why shouldnt a light/dark skillchaining WS be stronger than slugshot et al? we are 40 levels past slug shot

this balance argument makes no sense, there is no reason to balance against abilities from 8 years ago

[Treyd]

I don't get the big outrage? free\easy to learn weaponskills aren't as good as the ones that come attached to weapons. seems ok to me

I don't think the majority of upset players are asking for these WS to be stronger than some of the big damage empyrean WS, but they do need to be in the top contenders at max potential. We just want to feel like we are making PROGRESS in our jobs/weapons(also what is wrong with voidwatch IMO). I don't mind situational WS, but it is borderline insulting that these new flashy awesome looking WS that require level 96, 357 skill, and 100 merits to fully upgrade be as strong as a level 60 WS AT MAXIMUM POTENTIAL. Players need to feel like they are getting stronger with each passing level. No matter how you slice it, if these WS continue at their current trend of nerf-itude they will be seen as a joke.

It was a great opportunity for something new and exciting for potentially all jobs, but it's turning out to be more of the same. That is why the outrage and disappointment.

Edit: Ha...beaten to the punch by a long shot. That's what I get for posting at work.

[HimuraKenshyn]

I don't get the big outrage? free\easy to learn weaponskills aren't as good as the ones that come attached to weapons. seems ok to me

Missing the point how hard was it to get Rampage or Hexastrike? Maybe people that aren't retarded like getting new useful skills that aren't worse than skills received almost 40 levels earlier. Some actually look forward to new toys to play with hell I rather they add a new set of end game weapons with these skills on them that are harder to get than relics rather than making em shitty. It's just the mind set that is being shown they use BALANCE as a way to NERF the game to the point of feeling why login its all balanced nothing worth getting or doing any more just mindless grinding....

[Aldersyde]

I don't get the big outrage? free\easy to learn weaponskills aren't as good as the ones that come attached to weapons. seems ok to me

That's not the complaint at all. The issue is is that they are not better than weapon skills gained from level 55-75, yet they want us to invest 1,000,000 xp to fully max out one. I'm going to be blunt with you. If you think that a level 55 weapon skill, like rampage, should be better than ruinator, which comes 44 levels later and then has to be unlocked with a quest AND then with 10>15>20>25>30 merits, I don't know what to say. What I really want to say is that you're hopeless and it's pointless to try to explain anything to you.

Your argument that ws attached to weapons should be better than these merited ones doesn't even apply to axe or club or scythe; especially the case of axe. Rampage has been king of the hill for a long time. Decimation didn't outdo it. Primal Rend didn't outdo it. Cloudsplitter was a slap to the face as the ws doesn't even match Primal Rend unless you're using a brew, where it finally does pull ahead. The only thing a Farsha is good for is the base damage and the +10 str, so you can have a stronger Rampage. Don't get me started on Onslaught. So with axe, that's four weapon skills, three attached to weapons and one to a quest, where the reward ws wasn't better than the one received through natural skill. You really think after 44 levels and then another 1,000,000 xp, ruinator is an acceptable ws? I sure as hell don't.

You talk about xp being easy to get. Well, empyreans aren't that hard to get either pal.

[Brolic]

Missing the point how hard was it to get Rampage or Hexastrike? Maybe people that aren't retarded like getting new useful skills that aren't worse than skills received almost 40 levels earlier. Some actually look forward to new toys to play with hell I rather they add a new set of end game weapons with these skills on them that are harder to get than relics rather than making em shitty. It's just the mind set that is being shown they use BALANCE as a way to NERF the game to the point of feeling why login its all balanced nothing worth getting or doing any more just mindless grinding....

actually getting rampage was a lot harder than getting these weapons skills 49-55? at 5k an hr vs 100merits at 200k xp an hr.

[Soidisant]

SE are effectively trying to close the stable door after the horse has bolted with these balance nerfs. If they hadn't effectively blown away the doors with Abyssea and some Empyrean WS'es then there probably wouldn't be such a huge issue.

But it's kind of hard to scream balance after over a year of letting people tear shit apart with stuff like Ukko's, Smite, etc. The precedent had already been set with Empyrean WS'es and if some of them hadn't been so ridiculous then they could have gotten away with the meritable WS'es being slightly better or more consistent than the older WS'es. Now it just looks stupid screaming about balance when they blatantly ignored any semblance of balance when creating some of the Empy WS'es.

[Finuve]

actually getting rampage was a lot harder than getting these weapons skills 49-55? at 5k an hr vs 100merits at 200k xp an hr.

is that really your argument

[darkhorror]

is that really your argument

He is obviously trolling

[Brolic]

is that really your argument

no my argument is if you want a better weapon skill get an empyrean.

[Finuve]

no my argument is if you want a better weapon skill get an empyrean.
ok, I'll just close with "your argument is dumb" I can't justify continuing on with this crap

back to thread, SE needs to buff these WSs to be inbetween level 75 top WSs and Empy WSs, badly

[Aldersyde]

no my argument is if you want a better weapon skill get an empyrean.

And if the ws attached to weapon is balls? Is this where you tell me to level a different job? Get bent bro.

[Brolic]

ok, I'll just close with "your argument is dumb" I can't justify continuing on with this crap

back to thread, SE needs to buff these WSs to be inbetween level 75 top WSs and Empy WSs, badly

The could buff it to 1 damage below Empy ws, and it wont matter, who's inviting non Empy'dd to anything anyway?

[SpankWustler]

I don't get the big outrage? free\easy to learn weaponskills aren't as good as the ones that come attached to weapons. seems ok to me

I'd never expect them to be on par with beastly Empyrean weaponskills like Ukko's Fury, but it would be nice for Ruinator, Realmrazer, and Stardiver to outperform Rampage, Hexastrike, and (to a lesser extent) Drakesbane under non-Abyssea conditions.

For me, the most grating thing is that many weapons with mediocre Empyrean weaponskills are getting mediocre merit weaponskills as well. That leaves players serious about certain jobs without many options for significant damage upgrades.

[HimuraKenshyn]

Balance is my new 4 letter word. Next time I want to curse peeps I will just scream BALANCE you.


Instead of you got Fed bro = You got balanced bro

Get the balance out of here

Balance my life

They so balanced this game its not worth it any more

Stop feeding the troll....

[Pebe]

Maybe I shouldn't be complaining because the weaponskills I'm meriting are untouched but:

SE do you really think its fair that realmrazer < hexa now, new axe ws < rampage, Reqiuescat <= Spirits Within , etc when
Tachi Shoha > Tachi: Fudo, Blade Shun is on par with blade HI (this varies), Nothing comes close to Last Stand for marksmenship physical ws and therefore is on par with wildfire for usage, etc. I really didn't see the problem with leaving the weaponskills as they were when they were released. Was it that bad the Realmrzer beat hexa, and that whms finally had a new weaponskill to use after all these years? Or same with bsts and the new axe weaponskill. I mean come on, SE. Even the polearm weaponskill has it use in enhancing drakesbane because of enemy crit evasion-. I just think some of your decisions are made on a whim.

I may have just shot myself in the foot with this post (Don't touch Last Stand -.-), but whatever.

[HimuraKenshyn]

Maybe I shouldn't be complaining because the weaponskills I'm meriting are untouched but:

SE do you really think its fair that realmrazer < hexa now, new axe ws < rampage, Reqiuescat <= Spirits Within , etc when
Tachi Shoha > Tachi: Fudo, Blade Shun is on par with blade HI (this varies), Nothing comes close to Last Stand for marksmenship physical ws and therefore is on par with wildfire for usage, etc. I really didn't see the problem with leaving the weaponskills as they were when they were released. Was it that bad the Realmrzer beat hexa, and that whms finally had a new weaponskill to use after all these years? Or same with bsts and the new axe weaponskill. I mean come on, SE. Even the polearm weaponskill has it use in enhancing drakesbane because of enemy crit evasion-. I just think some of your decisions are made on a whim.

I may have just shot myself in the foot with this post (Don't touch Last Stand -.-), but whatever.


Whoa whoa whoa or they might balance you next lol...

[Sparthos]

I don't get the big outrage? free\easy to learn weaponskills aren't as good as the ones that come attached to weapons. seems ok to me

If the new WS are going to only barely beat lvl60 WS then what was the point of designing them? It clearly shows that the animator of the WS put alot of detail into his craft only to have it immediately become worthless as many of these skills will never see the day of light thanks to his team leaders poor decision making.

As it stood pre-nerfs, many of the new WS were going to lose to their Empyrean counterparts but the point was that you'd have some variety regarding situational uses. Ruinator for instance is a WS that was more than likely see use on BST over the other classes and as is common knowledge, Axe has needed a WS that can hurt strong mobs for a while now as Rampage is particularly ineffective against these targets.

Ruinator was the answer till it got this nerf. Basically, now you've got a WS that'll be just as ineffective as Rampage against tough targets (but more consistent) and against easy targets you'll be back to using the same WS you've been using since the game launched. Makes sense right? About as much sense as the moon being made of swiss cheese.

The problem SE has is in marketing. They release the test server, give players these toys to try out under the guise of open feedback that would make the game a better place yet we know this not to be so. Nerfs are handed out, pathetic reasons given for said nerfs (Atonement SE? really?) and people are made upset when potential toys are broken because the devs want to chase a misguided dream that doesn't even take into account the current state of the game.

We'll soon be hearing Chi Blast mentioned when they modify something MNK related. Such is the magnitude of disconnect between designers and end-users.

Instead of taking away, SE should be adding. They wanted Rampage/Hexa Strike to be still used? How about modifying them to give them situational use instead of nerfing the new WS down?

Realmrazer too strong you say? Add a cure potency added effect to Hexa Strike and voila, you'll have WHMs using it while everyone enjoys a new WS toy - namely BLUs and PLD who stood to gain situational boosts from this WS.

But what do I know.

[darkhorror]

Test server has them updated now, lets see some testing.