[dev1049] New weapon skills

[Raelia]

Inb4 Urteil finding something to complain about when DRK gets legitimately badass weapon skills because Pv- SHIT

Some of us would enjoy having a level 99 Scythe WS that is better than our level 60 Scythe WS. Just sayin'.

[Leonlionheart]

More indepth post on FFXIAH but for those who are wondering:

on Cherufe:
Upheavel 300%: 1944
Mighty Strikes Upheavel 300%: 4944
Mighty Strikes Ukko's Furry: 100%: 2222
Mighty Strikes Upheavel 100%: 3339

[Urteil]

Inb4 Urteil finding something to complain about when DRK gets legitimately badass weapon skills because Pv- SHIT

I like having your existence revolve around me.


Badass where? The Scythe WS apparently can't even beat Guillotine and for the mathematically challenged 96 is > 60 by a 36 whole levels.

Why is a DRK worrying about MP recovery in an endgame event, do your DRK's stand on the side using Tier III nukes? They are running out of MP from all their not-spell-casting between Refresh II and or consumables?

Are there Dark Magic spells worth casting that I don't know about, instead of swinging my apocalypse as fast as I can, as quick as I can?

And it recovers MP, and apparently doesn't steal it from the target. So it fails on levels otherwise thought impossible. So if the previous sentence is true: WTF.

You went full retard son.

[Leonlionheart]

Make the Scythe WS ASPIR MP not RECOVER.

Notawhmrdm.

I hope you're joking, that would just be total failure

[Lyrminas]

I kinda wish that emperyean weapons gave aftermath effect regardless of what WS you use <_<;;; like for Verethragna, any H2H WS should activate the aftermath, and that you worked towards that weapon solely for its aftermath capabilities.

[Sparthos]

And it recovers MP, and apparently doesn't steal it from the target. So it fails on levels otherwise thought impossible. So if the previous sentence is true: WTF.


This is an extremely confusing comment.

You want the WS to steal MP from the target so it'd be subject to resists on mobs like skeletons and other undead/dark-based mobs? Why?

[Taint2]

More indepth post on FFXIAH but for those who are wondering:

on Cherufe:
Upheavel 300%: 1944
Mighty Strikes Upheavel 300%: 4944
Mighty Strikes Ukko's Furry: 100%: 2222
Mighty Strikes Upheavel 100%: 3339


very interesting, thanks for testing.

[Mirage]

Make the Scythe WS ASPIR MP not RECOVER.

Notawhmrdm.
Aspir effects don't work on undeads and any mob without a MP pool. Have fun making the WS useless on half of the game's targets.

Making the WS work like Spirit Taker will let you recover MP from WSing *any* target that isn't under the effect of physical shield abilities.

[Quetzacoatl]

Just so that Square-Enix knows, Entropy needs to have a STR mod added to its current INT modifier. Otherwise, in endgame events, what is a Dark Knight doing that's costing him all his MP that doesn't involve using Drain spells and Dread Spikes?

I am impressed with Resolution, however. I may use it in tandem with Torcleaver and its Aftermath if there is a special perk to using Resolution.

Overall, it's looking like Great Sword is really making a comeback. I can't even look at Scythe anymore.

[Urteil]

Aspir effects don't work on undeads and any mob without a MP pool. Have fun making the WS useless on half of the game's targets.

Making the WS work like Spirit Taker will let you recover MP from WSing *any* target that isn't under the effect of physical shield abilities.

DRK didn't need help recovering MP it doesn't use. At least make the WS make some damn sense with the nature of the job. Instead of making it like an already existent STAFF, ability.

Useless WS was already useless, now it doesn't even have the dignity of making logical sense.

[Urteil]

This is an extremely confusing comment.

You want the WS to steal MP from the target so it'd be subject to resists on mobs like skeletons and other undead/dark-based mobs? Why?

Okay then I suppose Catastrophe should just "recover" HP as well?

SE's Idea List for Dark Knight:

Give them Tactical Parry.
Give them Spirit Taker.

Job fixed yet? /troll.

[Seriha]

Sorry, but I'd rather have a scythe equivalent to Spirit Taker over Energy Drain/Steal. If all this is just groaning about PvP, you're playing the wrong game. Meanwhile, I'll be happy I can more aggressively use Dread Spikes and the Drains when Aspir isn't an option. Lone wolfing in events like Campaign or WoE also introduce a higher longevity, particularly if opting to sub WHM, RDM, or SCH for added survival purposes.

[Raelia]

Lone wolfing in events like Campaign or WoE also introduce a higher longevity, particularly if opting to sub WHM, RDM, or SCH for added survival purposes.
Or you can /DNC with a multihit weapon and make those other subs look silly in terms of longevity.


Anyone else in favor of dropping the MP recovery effect from Entropy and making it an eight hit WS (hitting twice per swing of the animation)? That's what it'd take for Scythe to catch up to Torcleaver.

[Greatguardian]

8-hit WS with 100% WSC mod would be stupidly broken. Is DRK really even hurting that much for INT gear? 100% WSC is 100% WSC.

Edit: Even as an INT WS, this looks fairly decent, http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/239656

Blood mail would be augmented, of course, and I'm guessing on the SC properties. Whenever the fTP's confirmed, Aife's medal may be comparable to gorget in the neck slot.

[Raelia]

8-hit WS with 100% WSC mod would be stupidly broken. Is DRK really even hurting that much for INT gear? 100% WSC is 100% WSC.

Edit: Even as an INT WS, this looks fairly decent, http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/239656

Blood mail would be augmented, of course, and I'm guessing on the SC properties. Whenever the fTP's confirmed, Aife's medal may be comparable to gorget in the neck slot.

That set is great for the INT mod... and just missed three out of four swings (or worse if you're talking about an eight hit Entropy)!

100% INT is certainly NOT stupidly broken. Adding INT doesn't also raise fSTR and Attack like a 100% STR mod would (and the GS WS got a 100% STR mod, wtf?)

8 hits is what a vanilla Scythe WS would need to put the weapon back into contention at all, and also simplifies gearing and limits power creep because Double and Triple attack won't affect it (max 8 hits in any attack). Keeping it an INT mod would further limit the WS just enough for 8 hits to not be totally broken.

The entire concept of making Entropy an 8 hit WS is to give Scythe 1. A reason to exist and 2. Better help the longer delay make use of Souleater.

With capped accuracy it will still only land 6 hits most of the time, with occasional spikes.

[Quetzacoatl]

WHERE IS KIRSCHY'S INPUT ON THIS ; ;

i'mreallyjustcuriousaboutherinput

[SpankWustler]

8-hit WS with 100% WSC mod would be stupidly broken. Is DRK really even hurting that much for INT gear? 100% WSC is 100% WSC.

Edit: Even as an INT WS, this looks fairly decent, http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/239656

Unless I'm missing something (I know little of augments), that's not even the best set, either. Off the top of my head, I'd say Twilight Helm and Twilight Mail would be improvements. The Abyss Gauntlets +2 that will soon exist will be pretty epic for Entropy, too.

Dark Knight has a lot of options that include INT along with STR and stuff. Maybe some of the pieces are a little anemic in terms of attack, but I don't understand the tidal wave of complaints.

[Greatguardian]

Unless I'm missing something (I know little of augments), that's not even the best set, either. Off the top of my head, I'd say Twilight Helm and Twilight Mail would be improvements. The Abyss Gauntlets +2 that will soon exist will be pretty epic for Entropy, too.

Dark Knight has a lot of options that include INT along with STR and stuff. Maybe some of the pieces are a little anemic in terms of attack, but I don't understand the tidal wave of complaints.

D'oh! For some reason, Twilight wasn't there when I did a ffxiah power search for INT+ <_< I guess it cut off the results before it hit Tw.


That set is great for the INT mod... and just missed three out of four swings (or worse if you're talking about an eight hit Entropy)!

100% INT is certainly NOT stupidly broken. Adding INT doesn't also raise fSTR and Attack like a 100% STR mod would (and the GS WS got a 100% STR mod, wtf?)

8 hits is what a vanilla Scythe WS would need to put the weapon back into contention at all, and also simplifies gearing and limits power creep because Double and Triple attack won't affect it (max 8 hits in any attack). Keeping it an INT mod would further limit the WS just enough for 8 hits to not be totally broken.

The entire concept of making Entropy an 8 hit WS is to give Scythe 1. A reason to exist and 2. Better help the longer delay make use of Souleater.

With capped accuracy it will still only land 6 hits most of the time, with occasional spikes.

You realize WSC and fSTR do the exact same thing during WS, right? They both just add to your weapon's base damage. Even if your fSTR isn't capped, 2 STR isn't going to be nearly as potent as 2 INT with a 100% WSC mod.

2 INT * 0.85 = 1.7 Damage, whereas 2 Str is 0~1 Damage with an average of 0.5.

With a 100% WSC mod and 0.85 Alpha, 1 INT is the equivalent of 3.4 STR when fStr is uncapped - STR has no value at all when fStr is capped.

Yes, Attack is an issue when you're not getting free Attack from a STR mod WS, but that's pretty much all it comes down to. But is DRK of all jobs really lacking on Attack? Probably not.

fStr on WS is just not a big deal when you have such a high WSC.

[Alhanelem]

DRK has many items with both STR+ and INT+. You can add INT while also raising FSTR.

[Raelia]

You realize WSC and fSTR do the exact same thing during WS, right? They both just add to your weapon's base damage. Even if your fSTR isn't capped, 2 STR isn't going to be nearly as potent as 2 INT with a 100% WSC mod.


I'm glad you understand alpha and everything, but you completely wooshed my point just so you could play math. I was NOT talking about stacking STR on Entropy.

I was comparing a 100% INT mod to a 100% STR mod.

Let's throw 100 of each stat at each mod and see what we get:
+100 INT, 100% mod
100 * 1.0 * 0.91 (a much more recent alpha value mind you, .85 was back at 80 cap)
91 base damage from WSC

Now 100 STR on a 100% STR mod
91 base damage from WSC, ~25 base damage from fSTR if uncapped (which definitely happens in Voidwatch) and 75 attack (Also highly valuable in such events as Voidwatch)

So you're looking at a 10% Ratio increase on top of 27% more 'bang' from raw Stat.

A 100% STR mod is far more 'broken' than a 100% INT mod would ever be no matter how strong the base WS is. Resolution is 100% STR mod and already 25% stronger than Entropy (5.0 fTP vs 4.0, gorgets and ele belts are far past worthwhile at this point mind you so don't even mention them).

Having a 100% INT mod does not make Entropy any less crappy, especially when compared to Resolution. But if you wanna say that an eight hit Entropy would be broken because of a 100% INT mod you're just being silly.

[Greatguardian]

I'm glad you understand alpha and everything, but you completely wooshed my point just so you could play math.

I was comparing a 100% INT mod to a 100% STR mod.

Let's throw 100 of each stat at each mod and see what we get:
+100 INT, 100% mod
100 * 1.0 * 0.91 (a much more recent alpha value mind you, .85 was back at 80 cap)
91 base damage from WSC

Now 100 STR on a 100% STR mod
91 base damage from WSC, ~25 base damage from fSTR if uncapped (which definitely happens in Voidwatch) and 75 attack (Also highly valuable in such events as Voidwatch)

So you're looking at a 10% Ratio increase on top of 27% more 'bang' from raw Stat.

A 100% STR mod is far more 'broken' than a 100% INT mod would ever be no matter how strong the base WS is. Resolution is 100% STR mod and already 25% stronger than Entropy (5.0 fTP vs 4.0, gorgets and ele belts are far past worthwhile at this point mind you so don't even mention them).

Having a 100% INT mod does not make Entropy any less crappy, especially when compared to Resolution.

I'd like to see where your data supporting a 0.91 Alpha is coming from, considering all of the testing that's been going on on the test server from both Pchan and BG have either confirmed that Alpha is 0.85 or are using 0.85 as the level 99 Alpha. Edit: In fact, I'm fairly certain Alpha was very specifically confirmed to be 0.85 at 99 using Sidewinder because we've been having so many problems figuring out what was going on with these new WS.

Obviously a 100% STR WS would be stronger than a 100% INT WS, my point was simply that being a 100% INT WS doesn't inherently make it "Bad". Is the great sword WS better? Quite possibly, but then Greatswords also suffer from a great deal of X-hit issues and a lower base damage in general. A 15%~ish overall difference in WS damage isn't gamebreakingly horrid when you're looking at a 7-hit GS and a 6-hit Scythe.

[Leonlionheart]

Entropy is the best DRK ws simply because of Liberator.

99 Mythic pretty much rapes the scene.

Obviously, for the 99.999999% that don't have one, Torcleaver on low Defense mobs or High Attack situations and Resolution on high defense mobs.

[SpankWustler]

Following your logic, every single merit weaponskill should have a 100% STR modifier because anything else is just intolerable.

Of course a 100% STR modifier is better than a 100% INT modifier. I don't think anyone would suggest otherwise. I'm just saying a 100% INT modifier isn't as awful a thing as it's being made out to be. The sky isn't falling.

[Raelia]

Alpha has been rising since it was 0.82 at level 75. It's been above 0.90 for some time now. You are way out of date but this portion of the argument is irrelevant. It's still incomprehensible for alpha to have gone back down to almost the level it was at 75, but I digress. Do your own damn research.

The Greatsword WS is curbstompingly better with any decent amount of attack. If you have anything to say otherwise then feel free to make yourself look like a total clown. It's much further on the order of fully 50% stronger just for the STR mod reasons I detailed above and because the base damage difference between Scythe and GS has actually closed since level 75. X-hit issues are on a per-weapon basis (I'm looking at you Caladbolg) but are not insurmountable.

I also hope you're joking about only 6-hitting Scythe, especially with the Askar upgrades coming down the pipe.

100% INT is pretty awful, but isn't what's wrong with Entropy. It's the laughable 'four hits' cloning of a level 60 WS that is the problem. Make Entropy eight hits and it will at least compete even with an INT mod (if it were STR modded, that would indeed be too much!)

This is an opportunity for Scythe to not fall completely off the wagon. As it stands GS will take over both singlehit and multihit WS supremacy with better TP phase damage.

[Greatguardian]

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/106679-Test-Server-Findings?p=4915450&viewfull=1#post4915450

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/106679-Test-Server-Findings?p=4915481&viewfull=1#post4915481

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/106679-Test-Server-Findings?p=4915503&viewfull=1#post4915503

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/106679-Test-Server-Findings?p=4915521&viewfull=1#post4915521

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/106679-Test-Server-Findings?p=4915520&viewfull=1#post4915520

Put your money where your mouth is or shove off.

[Raelia]

Don't really give a rat's ass, you're running a sideline argument and ignoring the topic at hand.

[Greatguardian]

Which is what? You feel entitled to a flat 4.0 fTP increase on your WS? Even Asuran Fists, MNK's strongest non-Empyrean WS, only gets 20% total WSC while being 8-hit - and this is with a significantly weaker base damage.

Yeah, an INT mod is silly, but the alternative you're suggesting is breaking the god damn game. But who cares, right? In the end, it's just DRKs emo'ing about DRK. This entire conversation is subjective nonsense because determining where to draw the line of "Good enough" here is subjective. I could understand if Entropy was being shat on by Guillotine, but it's not. It's very clearly a gimmicky WS, where GS excels in pure damage. Whether it comes out comparable overall is going to depend vastly on the kind of gear/weapon options we're given at 99.

I also don't take kindly to people trying to "correct" me with bad, easily disproved numbers. If you want to get an attitude, make sure your bloody facts check out first.

[Raelia]

Because Torcleaver swinging a 4.75-6.5 fTP with auto-capped accuracy isn't broken in the same way? "Because it only has a 60% VIT mod"? DRK can stack a smidge over +110 VIT on gear but only about +85 INT (and most of that is the same Twilight pieces), and Torcleaver only has to consider Attack before stacking VIT.

An eight hit Entropy would require keeping accuracy capped first, then attack, then that INT mod might come into play. it's the classic Guillotine formula and has always separated the good DRKs from scrubs and would be good to return to. Your point about Asuran Fists's low modifier isn't relevant because said mods should come last from any standpoint.

'Entitled' to a 4.0 ftp increase? I just want the WS to be relevant. DRK should be a DD class to start, hybrid and utility second. After accuracy considerations, eight hits is not overpowered in comparison to Torcleaver.

Would you rather it be made a crit WS?

[Greatguardian]

Accuracy considerations, even at cap, are one of the biggest reasons I'm "wut"ing at this 8-hit request. Why not just add 2-3 fTP to the first hit? That would do a hell of a lot more for the WS than adding extra hits. 8-hit WS's only hit all 8 hits 66.3% of the time, even with capped accuracy. That's a woefully unreliable way to add damage if that's all your after.

[Raelia]

One (two?) word: Souleater.

Combine with Stalwart Soul and DRK has a nice chunk of zerg/spike output back without resorting to giving it a crit WS.

Should still land 6 hits most of the time. Making the WS eight hits means double and triple attack are not necessary and/or abusable if you took it into Abyssea.

It would be a powerful but fairly regulated (mostly by accuracy) weaponskill and fall within classical DRK design schemes without jumping the crit shark. Scythe needs a decent WS that badly and Torcleaver is the least comparison I can make; start throwing around WAR fTPs with critical attack bonus and Blood Rage thrown on top and eight hit Entropy would probably seem downright tame.

[Greatguardian]

If blood weapon isn't up, you would drop from 100% HP to 20% HP instantly... holy suicide, batman. Funny as hell, but nowhere near practical. And if Blood Weapon is up, why are you using a scythe brah?

[Raelia]

Hello Stalwart Soul? Even with eight hits landed and assuming no new tiers of the trait you'd only lose 40% of your HP (48% if you find somewhere to stick an Enhance SE piece) but add 1200-1440 damage.

Blood weapon doesn't work on WS anyway, derp?

Grill me about WS alpha values but then don't know these simple things about DRK? For shame...

Napkin math: A 4k WS ~33% of the time? About 3k average? Sounds good to me if you consider how hard it'd be to maintain that on higher level targets. Expect Quietus to match or surpass it on anything IT or (new)HNM.

[Theytak]

Just gonna point out here, if you're dualwielding, the new club ws will be 8 hits with a 100% wsc. I don't care about the drk discussion going on, but I thought I ought to point that out for the people not thinking about it, especially given how strong realmrazer apparently is.

[Raelia]

Just gonna point out here, if you're dualwielding, the new club ws will be 8 hits with a 100% wsc. I don't care about the drk discussion going on, but I thought I ought to point that out for the people not thinking about it, especially given how strong realmrazer apparently is.
Also aside from the discussion at hand, DRK doesn't get it but PLD does! Hexastrike +1 with Moepapa Mace comes out to about 2.4k damage.

[Theytak]

Also aside from the discussion at hand, DRK doesn't get it but PLD does! Hexastrike +1 with Moepapa Mace might be insane.

especially given how pld has A- club skill, so it's not like they'd be using a weapon with meh skill.

[Tannlore]

Staff WS is pretty hot. Tried it out on smn with little WS gear on (Server went down before I could really test it) and I was popping out 1.7k ws. Will try with a full int build on smn, sch, and blm to see what happens. But damn... 1.7k ws w/o the right gear.

[Motenten]

Alpha has been rising since it was 0.82 at level 75. It's been above 0.90 for some time now. You are way out of date but this portion of the argument is irrelevant.

Alpha went to 0.85 at level 80 and has remained there ever since. It's been re-tested at every level cap raise, and has always remained 0.85. I have verified this or had it verified for me each time for the purposes of my spreadsheet calculations. Data on the test server has so far not shown any solid evidence of a change in alpha for lvl 99, either.

[Urteil]

Sorry, but I'd rather have a scythe equivalent to Spirit Taker over Energy Drain/Steal. If all this is just groaning about PvP, you're playing the wrong game. Meanwhile, I'll be happy I can more aggressively use Dread Spikes and the Drains when Aspir isn't an option. Lone wolfing in events like Campaign or WoE also introduce a higher longevity, particularly if opting to sub WHM, RDM, or SCH for added survival purposes.

I think its hilarious how people assume that I am talking about PvP when I haven't typed the three letters before this occurrence.

And use this piece of shit WS in PvP? Are you kidding, I'd sooner use the level 60 WS with the amazing debuff effect that as far as I can tell does better damage too.

And that somehow attacking me by being amazing at PvP, is stupidity. I've never heard of someone trying to criticize someone over their success, but its not really surprising as your ignorance comes shining through in your feeble attempts to mask your own inadequacy:

Especially when you say things like the above, that is downright laughable as if any other WS in PvP exists for DRK and SAM besides guillotine/tachi: gekko respectively, and as long as the silence is attached to it,never will.

The shit you silly people say.



Meanwhile:

I don't think you play the game well enough.
The WS does poor damage, doesn't make sense, and fulfills nothing that a level 60 WS doesn't do, and what it does it does poorly and something that can easily be compensated by proper gear and MP management, and not being awful in general.

/SCH gives sublimation, you need more MP recovery outside of that and easily obtainable 4/tic refresh gear? Doing it wrong.

/RDM gives Refresh + have great refresh idle gear, and you still have MP problems? Doing it wrong.

Dark Magic spells aren't very costly with Dreadspikes being nearly comparable to the cost of a Cure IV, Dark Magic tends to be the most mp-efficient to HP recovered in the game. Especially with Submliation AND Parsimony.

Are you fighting in Light Arts all the time?
Do you have bale choker, twilight body, and take the time to get a refresh hairpin?

You want longevity? The truth solution is: Get an Apocalypse.

Even in solo events you can aspir nearly 90% of every Campaign mob and Aspir targets are found in WoE. Even then stop being a noob, go get an Appetence crown bale Flanchard +2 and drop a 650+ Nethervoid Aspir II on a solo monster, and if you want to get fancy macro in a Pluto's Staff, then perhaps you won't need a crap level 96 WS to get your mp back.

Get better, and if you were better you might PvP too, or know the fundamental truth that nothing has even come close to the utility/power of guillotine other than Catastrophe (and even then, I always prefer Guillotine over it in PvP shows how much you know!) in any sphere of the game, anywhere any time.

And that is bullcrap.

[Urteil]

Hello Stalwart Soul? Even with eight hits landed and assuming no new tiers of the trait you'd only lose 40% of your HP (48% if you find somewhere to stick an Enhance SE piece) but add 1200-1440 damage.

Blood weapon doesn't work on WS anyway, derp?

Grill me about WS alpha values but then don't know these simple things about DRK? For shame...

Napkin math: A 4k WS ~33% of the time? About 3k average? Sounds good to me if you consider how hard it'd be to maintain that on higher level targets. Expect Quietus to match or surpass it on anything IT or (new)HNM.

I don't care what the WS does the fact that it does LESS damage or equal damage to a level 60 counterpart is the problem

And since the entire draw to the thing was the MP drain, at least make that make sense.

8hit?Crit? Whatever SE couldn't possibly have mucked it up worse than they did, but at least Greatsword is good.

[Seriha]

Mad.

Focusing purely on offense, I see.

Maybe I'm weird in not forgetting DRK has enfeebling magic skill. This makes things like Slow and Paralyze an option when subbing WHM and RDM. Could even Silence mobs whenever I want in place of Guillotine and use, wait for it, a more damaging WS. Stoneskin, Blink, Haste, Aquaveil, Protect, and Shell are also on the plate. Yes, many mobs in Campaign can be Aspir'd, not so for WoE. Self-Refresh is 110 MP returned to yourself, with Convert being laughably wasted if you're not running around with a set to get enough MP to cure yourself back up (And I'd estimate roughly 4 Cure IVs on DRK) to leave yourself close to max once you swap back out. /SCH is more about riding Alacrity for keeping Dread Spikes up as much as possible, but like Aspir, this won't work on all mobs.

Do you want to be meleeing in auto-refresh gear? Okay, can get away with it on the Choker and maybe a Plastron in the body slot, but giving up head and leg slots is huge. Someone mentioned /DNC and a multi-hitter, but these aren't known for damage. Throwing TP into waltzes means less WS, and while this can closely correlate to time spent casting cures on yourself, self-haste is a boon and Steps don't really come close to what Slow/Paralyze can offer with a Dia on top for some defense down.

But if it isn't obvious, I don't give a crap about PvP. I also know that any mob with MP has way more than they need. Valkurm crabs have well over 1000 if I remember right, and these are like level 17 mobs. So, from the PvE perspective, your desire changes nothing and has the potential to make the WS worse if subjected to penalties against Undead/Dark Resisting mobs.

[xiozen]

I really dislike the way they did these WS. The fact that you are stuck unlocking only 3 or if you are to unlock more you rightfully gimp them all. You can only be on one weapon skill table at a time so this is just trying to force players to specialize on fewer jobs.

I personally disagree. Even though its restrictive; I appreciate and commend SE on taking the final step (from 96-99 in levels) and requiring some form of specialization. If you walk around Lower Jeuno and generally look at the characters standing around the Abyssea NPCs, you'll generally see cookie-cutter... meaning, if you have a Verethragna or Revenant Fists +2 via Walk of Echoes, you'll be using Victory Smite... if you have an Almace or Badelaire +2 you'll be using Chant du Cygne...etc. Given the way these have been introduced will (at least in the beginning, who knows what future updates will add) require players to focus on at least 3 weapon skills to strengthen and make VERY powerful with full merits, I believe requiring 1million merits to max out one. So grinding... yea... but I personally have been looking for a reason to get back to meriting... I know many folks were getting very close to maxing out merits on their mains and maxing out merits on other jobs they generally don't use just because they were running out of options when it came down to meriting and spending limit points. This is an excellent addition to using those maxed out limit points and this will take a lot of time, assuming you want to focus on maxing out the weapon skills instead of just unlocking more than 3.

[Raelia]

Hey I just do Apollyon NW DRK/DNC solo (no bosses though) so what do I know?

[Economizer]

One of the worst mistakes SE has ever pulled (even the dev team is human) is making job abilities and spells that are unlocked with merits. Yes, having effects improved by merits may have great potential, but it was always a bad idea to have the base version unlocked by merits when that means that players have to choose between being able to perform each one with mediocrity or being able to perform one or two the way they were made to be used.

While I could explain the things that were wrong with the merit system at length, it basically boils down to a few basic points. This is a very different MMO from others. Part of this is because we have a job system that allows people to do everything with one job given enough time and effort. This is very unlike many other MMOs where you are locked to your class from day one, and have to get a new character in order to perform a different role. The uniqueness and intelligent design of the jobs system in FFXI should not be beaten on its face any more then it already has.

While the "Other" category merits were a nice boost to characters, and stat boosts (STR/DEX/VIT/AGI/INT/MND/CHR/MP/HP) are acceptable and even neat like race selections were, and even Skill Boosts are still in the range of okay, the individual class merits at times pushed past this boundary. Still, class choices were at least restricted to classes, so at least if you liked to play as a more offensive version of one class and a more defensive version of another, you could tailor to this.

Basically, bringing merits into this to compare is wrong, because previous merit categories have been widely different - even when they strongly enforced differing play styles, they were at least limited to their individual jobs.

When it comes to Weapon Skills, few people if any really want to sacrifice the potential they should be at in order to be able to use them all. And I'm sure the dev team worked and toiled very hard on each and every animation... which makes me wonder - why would they deliberately decide to implement a system that encourages players to never use 11 of the 14 animations that they designed? This would be like making players decide between being able to go to Sea or Sky exclusively, unless they payed a non-refundable deposit of one million experience points!

Further, this especially punishes niche weapon skills and weapons, especially on unpopular jobs. You basically have to start choosing between weapons altogether, rather then letting the situation let you choose your job then your weapon. Like to solo on one class that is widely different from the ones you party with? Too bad because you can't get the WS you want without being gimp in parties!

All of this is a terrible price to pay for an artificial limitation on being able to enjoy all of the new content to its fullest. Players will already be paying one million merit points per weapon skill, which while this may be a fair price, is a steep one. But it is not as steep as the price of gimping your ability to get into parties and events with jobs you've leveled and geared just because you couldn't justify making that job's weapon skill your third weapon skill over another.

Basically, I see no reason to cap out this particular merit category. But I know that sometimes the dev team is stubborn about certain things, so I'll just list a few ideas that would be better then the current plans for this. This list goes in order of the best option to the worst. Hopefully SE finds at least one of these better then the extremely limiting limit they have now.


No point limits - the players earned their merit points, let them spend them!
Increased point costs for increased point limits - having more then three weapon skills capped will cost progressively more to do then the first choices.
Individual choices per job - each job has to unlock the weapon skills individually, but each job can unlock up to three.
Twenty Point limit, with the first point in any category not counting towards maximum allocation.
Thirty-four point limit - have an uneven amount that makes it clear that the intent is that players unlock all weapon skills and cap out five.

[Arcon]

All merit group combo caps should be lifted.

[Taint2]

Entropy is the best DRK ws simply because of Liberator.

99 Mythic pretty much rapes the scene.

Obviously, for the 99.999999% that don't have one, Torcleaver on low Defense mobs or High Attack situations and Resolution on high defense mobs.


Insurgency say hi.....don't forget the 15% WS boost it gets when used with Liberator.

The new Scythe WS is an absolute joke. Even as a career DRK I won't put a single merit into it. If MP is a problem on DRK, play better.

8hits would not be the answer, why would anyone want an 8hit WS? Give me a high fTP on a 2-4 hitter and make STR the mod.

[Soidisant]

The problem isn't that Entropy is completely garbage because as a standalone WS it is actually fairly nice. The problem is that it is not what DRK needed and SE has missed what was seemingly the perfect opportunity to pull up our damage to acceptable levels.

To me it looks like SE don't see DRK as a top tier DD. It seems like they see us as a utility DD who can do a variety of things but ultimately don't excel at overall damage except in short bursts.

[Zumi]

The problem isn't that Entropy is completely garbage because as a standalone WS it is actually fairly nice. The problem is that it is not what DRK needed and SE has missed what was seemingly the perfect opportunity to pull up our damage to acceptable levels.

To me it looks like SE don't see DRK as a top tier DD. It seems like they see us as a utility DD who can do a variety of things but ultimately don't excel at overall damage except in short bursts.

Well something tells me SE doesn't spend hours parsing fights to insure melee class balance like other companies do with their MMOs. They just add stuff without testing how it effects dps.

[Afania]

One of the worst mistakes SE has ever pulled (even the dev team is human) is making job abilities and spells that are unlocked with merits. Yes, having effects improved by merits may have great potential, but it was always a bad idea to have the base version unlocked by merits when that means that players have to choose between being able to perform each one with mediocrity or being able to perform one or two the way they were made to be used.

[/LIST]

I disagree, I think ppl in this game should have some form of specilization, and IMO merit WS is a good choice.

It's just like rl, you can't master everything in your career, if you want to master one thing you gonna sacrifice another. You can't be best musician and best lawyer+ best accoutant at once, that just doesn't work.

You get best by choosing a job, and take that path, and excel it. Those who spend most effort on this job should be the best.

Ever since Abyssea release there are no "main job" anymore, +2 is easy to get, empy is easy to get, every player has 1338 +2 jobs and empyreans, and all equally geared. If you want to make your main job stand out, it's really hard, because it doesn't take more than 3 months to grind best gears for every job you have. Even if you want to make your main job better than the rest by sacrificing your other jobs, you don't get the choice to.

And what's the point if your main job can't be better than others no matter how hard you try? You're forced to play and pimp other jobs, because if player A has 10 pimp jobs, player B only has 1, ppl would want player A in pt a lot more.

And this is not the first time SE do this with storyline gears, they've released 3 mini-expansion, which you can only pick 2 augments. I picked augment for my COR, so my BLU ended up being gimp cuz there are some other augments my BLU can benefit a lot, but I don't really care. It's my choice, I want to pimp this job and willing to sacrific other job for it. If there's another player who picked the augment for other jobs, that's totally fine. But I certainly don't want to see everyone owning 20 of mini-expansion gears and all augmented for their 20 jobs, that's just not fair because I can never make my main job stand out.

Game should be all about choices, and if you're hardcore it should be about picking a path and excel it. There are thousands of careers I wanna do irl, but in the end I can only pick one, same as jobs, it's call "jobs", that means you should be only excel at one.

[Dragoy]

I always did like the fact that I can level up all jobs on one character, instead of having to create several to do that.

I always disliked the fact that merits force you to choose things like this. I do understand the reasoning on being good at just one, and that you can indeed lower your merits and make changes. Only problem with that is the fact that you need to re-acquire them, and that's when it goes into a "bit too much" in my opinion.

That especially with the old, 10 Merit Point at once limit.
Even if you only got like half of them back to re-assign, I think it would be more OK.

But that's another subject really. Something like weapon skills becoming the same... I understand the reasoning, and sort of agree with it (a little), but no, I can't say I like it. Not that it matters... really... just saying... >.>;


Just some thoughts~

[Afania]

Further, this especially punishes niche weapon skills and weapons, especially on unpopular jobs. You basically have to start choosing between weapons altogether, rather then letting the situation let you choose your job then your weapon. Like to solo on one class that is widely different from the ones you party with? Too bad because you can't get the WS you want without being gimp in parties!

All of this is a terrible price to pay for an artificial limitation on being able to enjoy all of the new content to its fullest. Players will already be paying one million merit points per weapon skill, which while this may be a fair price, is a steep one. But it is not as steep as the price of gimping your ability to get into parties and events with jobs you've leveled and geared just because you couldn't justify making that job's weapon skill your third weapon skill over another.
[/LIST]


The moment you clicked the job change botton you're already not playing your job to fullest potential. You can only play a job to fullest potential when you use it in unfavored situations, since you'd have to find a way to solve the problem and overcome weakness by trying different aspect that it's weak to. If everyone always job change because another job is more useful than this situation, you'll never be able to push your current job further.

And even if you have 20 WS unlocked and all well geared, you still won't be able to get into party and events on certain job anyways. Because certain events always favors certain job, instead of welcomes all job. Those who has NIN leveled probably uses NIN 99.9% of time in Abby, and never get a chance to play SMN even if his SMN has a Mythic. It's all the same, except if he really excel at SMN maybe he'll have more chance to use SMN in a pt.

[Economizer]

It's just like rl

This isn't "real life" and shouldn't be a mirror of it.

We have a job system where you can change your abilities at a moment's notice. This isn't how real life works either.

This limitation is purely artificial, and to imply that Final Fantasy should try to mirror how life functions in this way is nonsensical.


And this is not the first time SE do this with storyline gears

Gear is widely different, and even so there is no gear selection choice that comes close to this merit choice. Not even remotely close.

Even picking up Relic, Empyrean, and Mythic weapons - which very much so lock you down to your choice unless you can muster the considerable resources to get another - are just items. You can still get another one if you pay the cost though.


that's just not fair because I can never make my main job stand out

You want to make your job stand out? Play better at it.

I will admit that I'm not always the best at gearing the job I like to play most, but even when I play with other people who are better geared then I am, I play better at my job.

In fact, this is the closest thing to a real life aspect you should have in Final Fantasy - player skill. If people can only be good at so many things, then they will naturally have one job they are better at playing then others. Since this is outside of the game code already, there is no need to implement it into the game code.

[Alhanelem]

I don't know why people are saying Shijin spiral isnt good... Outside of abyssea, it seems to be on par with Victory Smite, with an additional effect.

[xbobx]

The problem si they are testing it in abyessa and obviously it is not going to perform as will with a crit based weaponskill.

To many abyessa is the only content, but we are moving away from it. I tried in cape last night and on average it was better then pummel. Pummel had to do almost full crits to match the damage. I was doing 1900-2400 with Shinjin

[Greatguardian]

Hello Stalwart Soul? Even with eight hits landed and assuming no new tiers of the trait you'd only lose 40% of your HP (48% if you find somewhere to stick an Enhance SE piece) but add 1200-1440 damage.

Blood weapon doesn't work on WS anyway, derp?

Grill me about WS alpha values but then don't know these simple things about DRK? For shame...

Napkin math: A 4k WS ~33% of the time? About 3k average? Sounds good to me if you consider how hard it'd be to maintain that on higher level targets. Expect Quietus to match or surpass it on anything IT or (new)HNM.

I know Alpha because it's universal common knowledge and every DD in the game should know basic shit like that. I don't know jack shit about DRK specifically, so it's good to hear that they fixed the whole "Kill yourself with WS" crap. I know MNK/DRK Asuran back in the day was a death sentence.

@Mnk WS, it's alright but I'd expect it to drop off compared to Smite on harder (higher def) targets. Aftermath with Vereth should still beat out, or at least be close to depending on what new gear we end up with, Spharai+Shijin. Anything else+Shijin should be a clear loss to Vereth+Smite.

[brayen]

Why do people keep using the cookie-cutter excuse? the game can't change that. There is always a "best" gear choice for x situation, as well as a "best attainable" option that will always "plague" your game. trying to use that to justify having to "specialize" on a single set of weapons is just asinine. as it will be the same for weaponskills anyways. Fact of the matter is the change job option has been a fundamental aspect of this game in where you are allowed to play all the job classes to the fullest that you wish, initiating strict road blocks on that versatility is beyond me. As mentioned before this if you wish to "stand out" then gear up better, you would be surprised how often these so called "cookie cutter" people are geared poorly, the fact that this is being overlooked tells me a bit about how knowledgeable some people are in the actual mechanics and gear options of this game.

[Koren]

I would have liked to get the weapon skills naturally at the 350 or whatever skill level and have the merits adjust the additional affects for each one leaving the mod constant from when it was learned instead of this 17% increase per merit. Just have each be a damage varies with TP as a start. Then let the players decide what else the WS could do.

Example: Each weapon is its own category. 5 levels in each weapon merit, max 5 merits in each category. So 5 can be in Sword, 5 in H2H, 5 in Dagger, etc.

Sword Merit 1: Restores MP
Sword Merit 2: Critical Hit
Sword Merit 3: Lowers Enemy Attack
Sword Merit 4: Inflicts Paralysis
Sword Merit 5: Double Attack Aftermath

H2H Merit 1: Occ. Doubles Damage Aftermath
H2H Merit 2: Inflicts Slow
H2H Merit 3: Enfire effect
H2H Merit 4: Restores HP
H2H Merit 5: Allows one Additional Hit to Weapon Skill

and so on...

These are just examples so I don't really need to hear that H2H Merit 3 sucks vs the others or that I should have a healer or be /DNC if I want to heal myself.

At least this way would let us tailor-make these WS to the way we play, or the groups we may choose to play with. If you want a pure damage dealing WS there's a choice for that, if you want utility you can choose that instead. There are enough math fans here to figure out which would cause the most damage between Critical Hit and Double Attack Aftermath or if its better to put 3 merits in one and 2 in another or the difference between 2 and 3 merits is so small you might as well go 2-2-1 and get a minor additional effect slapped on for some utility.

I'm also for this because I'm a collective type player and the idea that some of these shiny WS would be out of my reach is abhorrent. I don't mind being able to max out 3 of my choice, but being unable to play with the others is just terrible. I'd like to be the best I reasonably can on my favorite jobs.

[Malamasala]

Staff WS is pretty hot. Tried it out on smn with little WS gear on (Server went down before I could really test it) and I was popping out 1.7k ws. Will try with a full int build on smn, sch, and blm to see what happens. But damn... 1.7k ws w/o the right gear.

What were you hitting? Not that it really matters since I rarely see numbers past 500 unless it is a EP mob or I'm using Cataclysm.

[Tannlore]

What were you hitting? Not that it really matters since I rarely see numbers past 500 unless it is a EP mob or I'm using Cataclysm.

I was popping them off on any mobs with no cruour buffs and just regain atmas. I plan to log in tonight and do some thorough testing in and out of aby mixing in various atmas and gearsets. I'll post my findings on the smn forum.

[Greatguardian]

If you want to do serious testing for the WS (this goes for anyone), Sneak attack them on level 0 bunnies in East Ronfaure and record your stats. Get about 20 WS naked, and 20 with as much {stat mod} as you can tack on.

Numbers on Aby and VW are nice, but don't really teach us anything about the WS.

Edit: Obviously, write down every WS# and note high/low, and # of merits in the WS.

[Tannlore]

If you want to do serious testing for the WS (this goes for anyone), Sneak attack them on level 0 bunnies in East Ronfaure and record your stats. Get about 20 WS naked, and 20 with as much {stat mod} as you can tack on.

Numbers on Aby and VW are nice, but don't really teach us anything about the WS.

Edit: Obviously, write down every WS# and note high/low, and # of merits in the WS.

Thank you for the explanation. Didn't feel like posting such gross details about my methods for testing. Typing it all on iPhone makes meh lazy. Good info for others testing.

Although testing in aby/vw tells me nothing? I beg to differ there. I want to know how these ws will behave in these circumstances as well. Which atma suit it more? Which ones do you think would work but for some reason aren't? (maybe broken and needs attention)

[Greatguardian]

It's easy to figure that out after you learn the basic WS properties, though, lol. One leads to the other.

Once fTP and exact WSC are nailed down for these WS, we can math out which atma will do best pretty easily.

[Byrth]

If we accept that the stat mods are 100% at 5/5 for each WS (and they are for each WS that has been rigorously tested), then finding the fTP could be very quick. I'm not up for it tonight, but I can try to do more this weekend at some point.

[Tannlore]

It's easy to figure that out after you learn the basic WS properties, though, lol. One leads to the other.

Once fTP and exact WSC are nailed down for these WS, we can math out which atma will do best pretty easily.

Right cause every WS and atma/atmacite SE's ever implemented has been done so with 100% perfection and efficiency ya? Or every update... like NA players being able to use the new WS and abilities. Part of testing with the atmas is to see if they are working correctly with the desired WS: It is a test server after all. Things might not be working correctly (See comment about bad/missing .dat files for WS and ability names) and I'd like to have it found it before it comes live and we find out after the fact and risk not getting it fixed for weeks/months/ever..

I want to see practical numbers from testing. Not partial testing and then theory-craft after the fact cause "I know how it'll pretty much go". Assumption is the mother of all mess-ups.

[SpankWustler]

Right cause every WS and atma/atmacite SE's ever implemented has been done so with 100% perfection and efficiency ya? Or every update... like NA players being able to use the new WS and abilities. Part of testing with the atmas is to see if they are working correctly with the desired WS: It is a test server after all. Things might not be working correctly (See comment about bad/missing .dat files for WS and ability names) and I'd like to have it found it before it comes live and we find out after the fact and risk not getting it fixed for weeks/months/ever..

I want to see practical numbers from testing. Not partial testing and then theory-craft after the fact cause "I know how it'll pretty much go". Assumption is the mother of all mess-ups.

If you don't know how something should work, there's no way to test if it is working properly. Without knowing basic things about a weaponskill such as the fTP and modifiers, it is impossible to tell if anything is actually having the proper effect.

All you can determine is "dis suks" or "i liek dis", which while useful information for an individual, is not the most objectively useful information.

[Tannlore]

If you don't know how something should work, there's no way to test if it is working properly. Without knowing basic things about a weaponskill such as the fTP and modifiers, it is impossible to tell if anything is actually having the proper effect.

All you can determine is "dis suks" or "i liek dis", which while useful information for an individual, is not the most objectively useful information.


Here's an example of how you can instantly tell if something isn't working in my example:

Soulshatter has an int modifier.
You go into abyssea, get visitant status.. use the ws (no boosts of any kind) record damage
Now you put on all the int boosting atmas you have... use the ws record damage. (keeping all set/tp% etc. the same as your first data sampling)

You find the damage didn't increase at all... there's a problem!

[Motenten]

Which will tell you if there's something wrong with the atma (certainly good to find out), but otherwise won't tell you anything you wouldn't have found out from testing for WSC.

[Tannlore]

Which will tell you if there's something wrong with the atma (certainly good to find out), but otherwise won't tell you anything you wouldn't have found out from testing for WSC.

Except a bigger sampling size for not having the atmas applied (arguably tainted data). The problem may also rest with the WS code itself rather than the atma (Which indecently it's working fine on test btw). Which is part of the purpose of testing the WS in all areas. If the atma wasn't applying, just found out! imagine if it wasn't the only ws that was effected too.

I'm not, nor have I said this is the only way to test. I'm saying that testing one way and saying, "Alright I'll base everything else off this" is good either. You have a propsed work-up for your fTP and wsc after testing outside on bottom of the barrel mobs with the right set up. Good! now go test it out in these areas too.

[FrankReynolds]

yur not gittin et.

[Alhanelem]

Here's an example of how you can instantly tell if something isn't working in my example:

Soulshatter has an int modifier.
You go into abyssea, get visitant status.. use the ws (no boosts of any kind) record damage
Now you put on all the int boosting atmas you have... use the ws record damage. (keeping all set/tp% etc. the same as your first data sampling)

You find the damage didn't increase at all... there's a problem! Now hang on... are you just making an example here? Or is the stat modifier for Shattersoul not working?

[Afania]

This isn't "real life" and shouldn't be a mirror of it.

We have a job system where you can change your abilities at a moment's notice. This isn't how real life works either.



Not much different. If I pick up a pencil, I can become an artist and draw stuff, if I go sit in front of a piano, I can become a pianoist as well. But I'm not going to draw better or play better instrument than professionals, the ones who spend their entire life doing it.

MMORPG is based on community, so it wouldn't be too far off from rl either. Most of the MMORPG I played, although it's locked at one class, you get to choose different skill set/talent to master as well, it's same concept. You can play 20 jobs, but eventually only a few will stand out. You're not gonna cap all of them.


Even picking up Relic, Empyrean, and Mythic weapons - which very much so lock you down to your choice unless you can muster the considerable resources to get another - are just items. You can still get another one if you pay the cost though.


Sure, except ppl nowaday have empy for every job, ever since dyna update BST can solo a relic in 4 months, 2 months with a mule, pretty soon everyone will have relic for every job as well. When other ppl has same gear as you do, you won't stand out.




You want to make your job stand out? Play better at it.


Play better at what? Some job does have more complexity than others. But quite a lot of job is nothing more than pop JA then WS, swap gears for x situation and y situation. There are really nothing else to do research and most of the players that bother to care about their job can catch up in terms of playing skill by watching/doing research and they know what to do easily. The skill required in FFXI to play a job nicely isn't half as hard as playing piano to professional level. Someone may spend their entire life practicing playing piano and become a master and create new value for this instrument, you don't need to spend entire life to play FFXI to learn a job, this game is nothing but a bunch of codes, and many most effective ways to play it(which are mostly done by math) are already discussed on the forums/being discovered.






Gear is widely different, and even so there is no gear selection choice that comes close to this merit choice. Not even remotely close.



It's exactly the opposite, many add-on gears provide bigger boost to their respective jobs, while new merit WS are mostly not game breaking. Most of the merit WS are only on par, or subpar to empy/relic WS unless SE change it after next update. Even if they're on par with empy/relic WS the aftermath from empyrean weapon can easily catch up. You won't be gimp without merit WS at all, you can still go grind an empy, spam empy WS and keep ODD up, and still able to perform decently. You're able to pick 3 merit WS, even if you have 20 job leveled, you can still pick better merit WSs and do empy for those without merit WS. From what I've heard Katana/Scythe/h2h aren't so good, rest are replaceable with relic/empy WS for sure, you're not sacrificing too much performance of your jobs by limiting to 3.

[Seriha]

Yet in FFXI-land, being a beefy Warrior with capped Great Axe skill somehow translates to you forgetting how to use that weapon if you change to Paladin or something. Conversely, I don't suddenly forget how to write with a pencil the moment I sit in front of a keyboard, and have been known to do both on occasion, maybe even drawing.

The merit system, unfortunately, promotes the very form of cookie-cutter some seem so against by advocating its presence. Merits can basically be lumped into gear when it comes to the, "If you want be good at this, have that or else you suck!" kind of thinking. When you start taking away restrictions like merits, 21+ hour pops/event timers, stupidly low/random drop rates, and so on, you start creating an equalized playing field where the only real excuse for a person to "suck" is to simply not having put some effort forward to better themselves. Sure, that definition of effort is going to vary between individuals, especially those of more the casual and hardcore mentalities, but I think if there's one thing both sides have in common, it's that they hate playing with people who do suck, and thus inhibit their own personal progress.

[Kristal]

Yet in FFXI-land, being a beefy Warrior with capped Great Axe skill somehow translates to you forgetting how to use that weapon if you change to Paladin or something. Conversely, I don't suddenly forget how to write with a pencil the moment I sit in front of a keyboard, and have been known to do both on occasion, maybe even drawing.

You know how you always end up having to use a spinning moogle to change your job? That's because the moogles made 20 clones of you, and they change them when you come to job change. Each clone has access to the common pool of knowledge, but only if it trained to do so. Subjobs are a moogle experiment at merging the clones into one being, but they haven't found a way yet to deal with the loss of potential from the donor clone.

[Seriha]

Makes sense. x.x

[FrankReynolds]

Also, the game is called Final Fantasy XI.... that right there is a contradiction just in the name. Expect no regularity in this game.

[CrAZYVIC]

I disagree, I think ppl in this game should have some form of specilization, and IMO merit WS is a good choice.

It's just like rl, you can't master everything in your career, if you want to master one thing you gonna sacrifice another. You can't be best musician and best lawyer+ best accoutant at once, that just doesn't work.

You get best by choosing a job, and take that path, and excel it. Those who spend most effort on this job should be the best.

Ever since Abyssea release there are no "main job" anymore, +2 is easy to get, empy is easy to get, every player has 1338 +2 jobs and empyreans, and all equally geared. If you want to make your main job stand out, it's really hard, because it doesn't take more than 3 months to grind best gears for every job you have. Even if you want to make your main job better than the rest by sacrificing your other jobs, you don't get the choice to.

And what's the point if your main job can't be better than others no matter how hard you try? You're forced to play and pimp other jobs, because if player A has 10 pimp jobs, player B only has 1, ppl would want player A in pt a lot more.

And this is not the first time SE do this with storyline gears, they've released 3 mini-expansion, which you can only pick 2 augments. I picked augment for my COR, so my BLU ended up being gimp cuz there are some other augments my BLU can benefit a lot, but I don't really care. It's my choice, I want to pimp this job and willing to sacrific other job for it. If there's another player who picked the augment for other jobs, that's totally fine. But I certainly don't want to see everyone owning 20 of mini-expansion gears and all augmented for their 20 jobs, that's just not fair because I can never make my main job stand out.

Game should be all about choices, and if you're hardcore it should be about picking a path and excel it. There are thousands of careers I wanna do irl, but in the end I can only pick one, same as jobs, it's call "jobs", that means you should be only excel at one.

There "Career players" This players have 7 years using a job, trying pimp in gear and skills their job. They Read, math and parse real events for a great perfomance improvement.

There people very well informed, people spend several hours reading how gear a new job, building macros, doing several maths and parsing his new job.

In my personal exp any player informed can master "All jobs he want" No matter what. If this person have time for gear that in the right way, and do all the necesary yes a new job can be mastered.

Even if everyone can master anyjob and be a pimp expert player, always will be a diference vs a True Love and career person using a job.

The Career player will expend 95% their time pimping 1 job, will give these job 240 Spaces and will keep practicing and training for be the number one using his favorite job this is what make the diference vs a "Good informed player" vs a elite Career people.

A good informed player Cant give 240 espaces for only 1 job
A good informed player cant spend 95% of their time pimping a job
A good informed player dont have 7 years using a job 95% of time.

I can Qoute 2 "Elite Career thiefs"

1.- Is Melphina from Fenrir
2.- Is Banalaty


This persons are "ELITE Career players" The diference is notable when you see this persons play. Not is like see a Pimp Twastar thief or see a informed player, is another feeling more deep is lke see a ELITE CApitan player on the battlefields, this people on their jobs really will surprise everyone.

In conclusion everyone can "master" anyjob with efforts and knowedge but a few people will really be a Elite Outstanding player.

A elite player will outparse the 95% The playerbase with "Their favorite jobs No matter if this jobs are inferior jobs", this person will be always 79/80 and with a lot of gear varations in mog house, this kind of players are totaly elite masters in their jobs. Yes even a uKovansara warrior will fear this kind of players if you take they in "Light mode in the parses you will end raped for a big margin"

So i respect this kind of players because they use their jobs in a way exceptional even for see their true potential you need as minimiun be a master in the job they use just for UNDERSTAND whats going in there.

Not is only do maths in a imaginary paralel universe
Not is only parse like a idiot and ask the devil for help for a win a parse
Not is only read and set a Tp set and ws set there a LOT of more things necesary for be a Elite player.

[FrankReynolds]

WHat?..................


anyways, it appears these are generally good WS, so let's all petition to be able to merit them all.

[Feliciaa]

You can merit them all. However, the cap is NOT there to mess with the players. It's there to add some kind of unique style based solely on a player's personal preference. IMO. I really like this since jobs were really starting to all feel the same even to the point of JAs from one class showing up on another but with a different name.

[FrankReynolds]

You can merit them all. However, the cap is NOT there to mess with the players. It's there to add some kind of unique style based solely on a player's personal preference. IMO. I really like this since jobs were really starting to all feel the same even to the point of JAs from one class showing up on another but with a different name.

I was totally gonna petition to make them cap at 5 merits each, with a cap of 15 for the whole category. Thanks for telling me how they already work Captain Obvious.

My "personal preference" is to not have to have some jobs gimped by lack of access to a good weapon skill. Playing war, thf and nin shouldn't mean that my monk is gonna suck. I'm really starting to hate this cap a little more very time I think about it.

[Feliciaa]

Guess I just see this as a great way to finally add some unique game play between players. It even makes relic and emp holders have to consider if they want to spam the weapon's WS or put merits in for these new ones.

[Afania]

I was totally gonna petition to make them cap at 5 merits each, with a cap of 15 for the whole category. Thanks for telling me how they already work Captain Obvious.

My "personal preference" is to not have to have some jobs gimped by lack of access to a good weapon skill. Playing war, thf and nin shouldn't mean that my monk is gonna suck. I'm really starting to hate this cap a little more very time I think about it.

Except if you have WAR THF NIN MNK all of them won't suck by not having the new WS, your WAR NIN MNK can spam empy WS(which as far as test result goes they're still the best), get ODD from empy WS and still outparse WAR NIN MNK using merit WS, and only your THF needs merit WS, in the end you only merit 1 and still has good performance on all of them.

Still I don't know what's this "If I don't have all merit WS I'm gonna suck" mentality comes from.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Guess I just see this as a great way to finally add some unique game play between players. It even makes relic and emp holders have to consider if they want to spam the weapon's WS or put merits in for these new ones.


Nothing has changed for relic WS, the useful ones are just as viable as they were before the new Weaponskills.

Emps depends on the situation.

[FrankReynolds]

Except if you have WAR THF NIN MNK all of them won't suck by not having the new WS, your WAR NIN MNK can spam empy WS(which as far as test result goes they're still the best), get ODD from empy WS and still outparse WAR NIN MNK using merit WS, and only your THF needs merit WS, in the end you only merit 1 and still has good performance on all of them.

Still I don't know what's this "If I don't have all merit WS I'm gonna suck" mentality comes from.

First of all, not everyone has a relic/w/e for every job. The more jobs you have leveled, the more silly what you just described sounds. These WS will be expected of any job that you don't have a relic or w/e for by any group leader. More importantly though, I just want things to use my merits on, and options to use on my different jobs. The above was a hypothetical by the way, I have, and I suspect most other people do as well have several different jobs leveled / geared besides the ones listed. I just don't see why you would want to limit someone who has a bunch of different jobs leveled by going "Well, if you don't have an Empyrian for that job, then come on something that you have the merit WS for.".

[Alhanelem]

Just an FYI out there. the WS still have a stat mod with 1 merit. It appears to be a 15% base and the first point does add 17%; I've read about some testing suggesting that the stat modifier when maxed is 100% of the stat.

These weapon skills are not so jaw dropping amazing (for the most part) that you will suddenly be a terrible gimp if you can't have every one for every job. The whole point of the merit system in the first place, though, was to enable specialization, so that sure, you can play every job, but you will be stronger with your personal jobs of choice. Thus, even when everyone has every job maxed, some people will still be stronger as one job than as another.

Also as an aside, 15 points does allow you to get every weapon skill- they just won't have very strong stat mods.

[Taint2]

Just an FYI out there. the WS still have a stat mod with 1 merit. It appears to be a 15% base and the first point does add 17%; I've read about some testing suggesting that the stat modifier when maxed is 100% of the stat.

These weapon skills are not so jaw dropping amazing (for the most part) that you will suddenly be a terrible gimp if you can't have every one for every job. The whole point of the merit system in the first place, though, was to enable specialization, so that sure, you can play every job, but you will be stronger with your personal jobs of choice. Thus, even when everyone has every job maxed, some people will still be stronger as one job than as another.

Also as an aside, 15 points does allow you to get every weapon skill- they just won't have very strong stat mods.


1/5 is 20% Mod
2/5 is 40%
3/5 is 60%
4/5 is 80%
5/5 is 100%

But there is a 0.85 Alpha applied which explains the 17% increase.

[Coldbrand]

I just hope they increase the merit category cap to 20 or 25. 3 isn't enough.

[Economizer]

Play better at what? Some job does have more complexity than others. But quite a lot of job is nothing more than pop JA then WS, swap gears for x situation and y situation. There are really nothing else to do research and most of the players that bother to care about their job can catch up in terms of playing skill by watching/doing research and they know what to do easily. The skill required in FFXI to play a job nicely isn't half as hard as playing piano to professional level. Someone may spend their entire life practicing playing piano and become a master and create new value for this instrument, you don't need to spend entire life to play FFXI to learn a job, this game is nothing but a bunch of codes, and many most effective ways to play it(which are mostly done by math) are already discussed on the forums/being discovered.

If you really believe this, then you are doomed to be a little "cookie cutter" for the rest of your FFXI career.

It is irrelevant on whether playing a job takes more or less skill then playing the piano, it still takes a set of skills to do. Belittling those skills in favor of gear and merits will only make your playtime empty.

If you think that playing a job is just spamming abilities and spells, then you have no sense of pride in your job. You probably think that someone being able to get the same set of gear you have makes you less good at your job, and I think you'd be right - because your job is not Corsair or whatever FFXI construct you think it is anymore, your job is a metaphorical (er... I won't risk inflaming the overworked moderators to make a better point here) ego measuring contest. You will always lose at that contest for as long as you live as long as you play it, no matter what the arena you play it is in, because there is no way to truly win.

And as long as you do not hold the sense of magic in your class/job, the sense of pride from doing what you do, and the gratification from doing that job well regardless of what others do, and as long as you don't do it as best you can, you will never be unique.

You will always be the cookie cutter, because you foolishly think that some piece of hard to get gear gear or illogical merit limitation will make you any different. It doesn't. You can't be geared or merited to be any more unique from anyone else playing you job in the best gear loadout, but you can care about what you do. This will always make you stand out, even if you aren't the one wearing the best gear or using the best merit loadout for your job.

I could go on and on, but really, I can sum this up very easily. You should be able to have fun regardless of what other people are capable of, and we should never be pointlessly held back for bad reasons.

[Natasha]

First of all, not everyone has a relic/w/e for every job. The more jobs you have leveled, the more silly what you just described sounds. These WS will be expected of any job that you don't have a relic or w/e for by any group leader. More importantly though, I just want things to use my merits on, and options to use on my different jobs. The above was a hypothetical by the way, I have, and I suspect most other people do as well have several different jobs leveled / geared besides the ones listed. I just don't see why you would want to limit someone who has a bunch of different jobs leveled by going "Well, if you don't have an Empyrian for that job, then come on something that you have the merit WS for.".

But what you were just saying, is that essentially, if you don't have the best then you're gimp (assuming you think these weapon skills are strong) so if thats your mentality then you're gimp for not having an empy anyway.... not being the best at everything doesnt make you gimp -.-

abyssea mentality...

[Greatguardian]

snip

Shut up.

Do you believe in the Heart of the Cards, too? When you play Yu-Gi-Oh, are you worried that you may be sucked into another dimension if your blue eyes white dragon gets KO'd? Do you feel that the spirit of your Dark Magician is there to help you win the match and draw the right cards from your deck?

No?

Then we're on the same bloody page.

Have a problem with people who play the game differently from you? Fine. Some of us enjoy different aspects of this game, and no, that isn't automatically a bad thing.. Being able to master multiple jobs quickly and easily doesn't make someone a "cookie cutter robot". It's actually extremely easy when you understand how the game itself works at its core. All you have to do is apply the same concepts to whatever you're working with at the time.

But hey, go ahead and keep flaming everyone who doesn't believe in the Heart of the Cards. It just highlights your insecurity. I don't see anyone else sitting around comparing themselves to other on a parser or pen/paper, OCD about being able to beat everyone else around them. Honestly, I could care less.

Know the real reason why people go out and math out how to play the game as well as they can?

Because some people just care about being the absolute best that they can be.

That doesn't make it a race, shortbus. Just a time trial. My only competition is myself. I guess that thought just never occurred to you, though.

[FrankReynolds]

But what you were just saying, is that essentially, if you don't have the best then you're gimp (assuming you think these weapon skills are strong) so if thats your mentality then you're gimp for not having an empy anyway.... not being the best at everything doesnt make you gimp -.-

abyssea mentality...

Yes, my monk currently has half built Vara. It is Gimp in my opinion. Having this merit weapon skill (which seems to perform pretty close to VS so far) would be a huge step toward un-gimping it. Glad we agree.

For people who don't get to build Best in class weapons, having access to the merit WS will be a must in many situations, if they expect to be competitive with other DD.

[brayen]

First of all, not everyone has a relic/w/e for every job. The more jobs you have leveled, the more silly what you just described sounds. These WS will be expected of any job that you don't have a relic or w/e for by any group leader. More importantly though, I just want things to use my merits on, and options to use on my different jobs. The above was a hypothetical by the way, I have, and I suspect most other people do as well have several different jobs leveled / geared besides the ones listed. I just don't see why you would want to limit someone who has a bunch of different jobs leveled by going "Well, if you don't have an Empyrian for that job, then come on something that you have the merit WS for.".

This sums it up pretty well. I have no desire to be limited on the jobs i like. Not this late in the game. Maybe if it was the case on release but changing this up now is upsetting.

[Economizer]

I really don't get how saying that players shouldn't be held back because someone is afraid of being outdone by others offends you, but alas. I'm not going to quote the thinly veiled comments calling me a retard, but I will get to the core of this. I hope that this can help pacify your dander.


Have a problem with people who play the game differently from you? Fine. Some of us enjoy different aspects of this game, and no, that isn't automatically a bad thing.. Being able to master multiple jobs quickly and easily doesn't make someone a "cookie cutter robot". It's actually extremely easy when you understand how the game itself works at its core. All you have to do is apply the same concepts to whatever you're working with at the time.

I have no problem against people who play the game differently, or people who master several jobs and play them all well. In fact, I think that players able to do that are needlessly held back by artificially limiting how many WS you can merit.

Some players will be able to do this, I have no problem with that, and I have no clue how you came to the conclusion that I did or that I said anything to that effect.

The only players I have a problem with are ones who think they need to have the best gear and the best merits for their particular job and that everyone else should be held back from this unless that is the only job they want to prioritize.

Players who work hard at what they do and care about being good at it will always be better then those who are worried about being the best or being "cookie cutter" or some other thing they see as horrible, even if they are not the best at what they are doing.

I trust that you feel that you work hard at what you do, as that is the feeling I get from your post, and this is entirely what I defended, and not a thing more then what I mean.

[brayen]

i think he just missed what your point was. Not sure why he got so offended. (i think u two are even on the same side of the argument in this discussion too which makes it funny but w/e lol)

[Greatguardian]

i think he just missed what your point was. Not sure why he got so offended. (i think u two are even on the same side of the argument in this discussion too which makes it funny but w/e lol)

Possibly. I'm seeing absolutely no consistency at all in my reading of the past 3 pages. People seem to be all over the place.

It would help if the term "Cookie Cutter" was expanded upon, because that is driving me crazy. The hell is wrong with using the best TP/WS/merit sets for a job? They're the best because they're the best. There is no subjective case there. Using this as a derogatory term is flying in the face of the rest of what appears to be going on here.

[Economizer]

It would help if the term "Cookie Cutter" was expanded upon, because that is driving me crazy. The hell is wrong with using the best TP/WS/merit sets for a job? They're the best because they're the best. There is no subjective case there. Using this as a derogatory term is flying in the face of the rest of what appears to be going on here.

I think calling someone "cookie cutter" is the poor statement that their gear and merits match. That's kind of inevitable and only matters if you think it does.

I was replying to the person who was saying that allowing people to merit as many WS as they want would result in people being cookie cutter. I was telling them that thinking that using the best sets for a job does not set you apart, but rather, playing well does.

Of course, having these things helps, which is why I think they should be available for all jobs someone has, rather then being limited to placate people who are irrationally afraid of looking the same as others.

I don't think that someone could log into your character and do what you do unless they know what you know and care enough about it to put in the effort to pull it off. This isn't necessarily hard, but putting in the effort to do these things is something most people don't do, and I think that should be what sets us apart (not that that is neccisary) not some artificial limit on merit point allocation.

Hopefully this helps, and if I used phrasing that was confusing before, I'm sorry.

[Greatguardian]

Point taken, I'm sorry about that then. In the post you quoted, I saw nothing about cookie cutter from the other guy, so apparently I was missing a good deal of context.

Honestly, I could care less about the whole merit deal. I already know I'm only unlocking GKT, H2H, and Gun. I have a Vereth and an Armageddon already, but those WS just look supercool - and are situationally useful regardless. Last Stand is easily comparable to Wildfire, and would be stronger on anything that physical or non-fire damage are more viable on. Shijin's plague effect is fairly potent, though probably ineffectual on real NMs, so it's a nice solo/lowman tool for summoning pokemanz and keeping TP feed down.

Shoha is just a beast, though. I'm making a new magian GKT for it. A 99 TPBonus Keito with 5/5 Shoha is likely going to demolish a 90Masamune with Fudo, and there's no way I'm taking a Masa to 99.

[brayen]

Cookie cutter is simply a term used for what you see the most of. Peoples argument is that this makes for a change...simply because some people will be able to access the better WS while others who don't have such a luxury to merit enough for all their jobs will be left behind(forcing which jobs you ultimately use as no one will consider a job using raging axe cuz they lack rampage *as an example*) In any case, cookie cutter is deemed evil because people just see same job classes wearing the same stuff and using the same WS/spells, even tho a greta majority of the time said cookie cutters are in fact not wearing the optimal gear or anything like that which makes it all the more humorous.

[Greatguardian]

I know what Cookie Cutter means, the important thing was context. In the context you bring up, I think it's silly to be upset over it. If X gear is the best, I'm going to wear X. If other people wear X too, so what? Good for them, I say. That's always going to happen, no matter what.

What makes you say that "cookie cutting" isn't optimal, though? Why would people wear a set en masse if it was not optimal? Are you referring to the spread of misinformation? If so, I'm against that too! Hell, it's the vast majority of why I post on these forums. You should see the things people come up with.

However, if you were to give everyone all of the knowledge about the game in existence, along with the ability to GM any gear they want out of thin air, people are going to end up wearing the same thing 95% of the time.

[brayen]

I know what Cookie Cutter means, the important thing was context. In the context you bring up, I think it's silly to be upset over it. If X gear is the best, I'm going to wear X. If other people wear X too, so what? Good for them, I say. That's always going to happen, no matter what.

What makes you say that "cookie cutting" isn't optimal, though? Why would people wear a set en masse if it was not optimal? Are you referring to the spread of misinformation? If so, I'm against that too! Hell, it's the vast majority of why I post on these forums. You should see the things people come up with.

However, if you were to give everyone all of the knowledge about the game in existence, along with the ability to GM any gear they want out of thin air, people are going to end up wearing the same thing 95% of the time.

because cookie cutter is usually optimal within reason. For example, a good majority of people have totally skipped out on augmenting abj gear due to the retarded random stats, even tho for a good amount of cases these are the optimal choices. you bring up good points on misinformation as well but main point i was stating was this. as cookie cutter is usually reference to "basic" gear that players wear.

[Economizer]

I think the other five percent of the time will refer to that neck piece and soon the new cape that increase crit rate and damage taken at the expense of having to increase your Tonberry hate.

Now that's a hard choice. :p

[FrankReynolds]

because cookie cutter is usually optimal within reason. For example, a good majority of people have totally skipped out on augmenting abj gear due to the retarded random stats, even tho for a good amount of cases these are the optimal choices. you bring up good points on misinformation as well but main point i was stating was this. as cookie cutter is usually reference to "basic" gear that players wear.

I opted out of that crap because I am against random stats as well, and I refuse to give SE a reason to put that shit on more gear. Nobody wants to be cookie cutter, but by placing these merit caps, they are basically saying that you can only be really good at 3 of 20 jobs (depending on the WS), unless you go build a relic or something. That's pretty harsh. Bear in mind that I'm saying this as a person who probably won't run into that limitation as much as many others will. I'm for the good of the player base. I don't want to be doing Nyzul PUG with a bunch of crappy DDs who have no WS (just and example). I also don't wanna have to filter people out based on that.

As for defending the interwebs from terrible misinformation, please refer to my signature if your not sure these stupid people exist. :P

[Economizer]

As for defending the interwebs from terrible misinformation, please refer to my signature if your not sure these stupid people exist. :P

That thread is near unreadable... do people understand the concept of cutting down quotes to only contain relevant parts and cutting them into pieces when responding to multiple parts?

[Afania]

First of all, not everyone has a relic/w/e for every job. The more jobs you have leveled, the more silly what you just described sounds. These WS will be expected of any job that you don't have a relic or w/e for by any group leader. More importantly though, I just want things to use my merits on, and options to use on my different jobs. The above was a hypothetical by the way, I have, and I suspect most other people do as well have several different jobs leveled / geared besides the ones listed. I just don't see why you would want to limit someone who has a bunch of different jobs leveled by going "Well, if you don't have an Empyrian for that job, then come on something that you have the merit WS for.".

I don't understand.

A while ago you're saying not having merit WS=gimp, and not playing the job to it's fullest potential. I just offered solution to ungimp it.

Yes you can argue that empyrean WS takes longer to get and not everyone have it etc, but most of the ppl in this game also only has 1~2 empyrean weapon since many ppl doesn't have a lot of play time to get 20 empyrean weapons for 20 job too, and 1~2 empy WS is less than 3 merit WS. In that sense their none-empyrean job are not playing to fullest potential too, I never seen anyone complain on SE forum that empyrean WS should be available to everyone and only takes 1 day to unlock. For me empyrean weapon is also a limit to pretty much 99% of ppl since 99% of ppl won't have time to get them all. A lot of ppl have many DD job leveled/geared and no empy(nor time to do an empy), never seen them QQ. A lot of ppl have multiple job leveled/geared and only play their best job with empy, never seen them QQ that they can't play their none-empy DD too.

You said you're doing an empy, chances are by the time you finish it you won't use merit WS ever again. Merit WS is not there to replace the old WS just like how empy WS isn't there to replace old WS, you should treat merit WS like a bonus, not like a must have.

If you wanna treat it like a must have, I can say empy weapons are must have too, and most ppl doesn't have more than 3. So why QQ about having only 3 merit WS?

[Afania]

It is irrelevant on whether playing a job takes more or less skill then playing the piano, it still takes a set of skills to do. Belittling those skills in favor of gear and merits will only make your playtime empty.

If you think that playing a job is just spamming abilities and spells, then you have no sense of pride in your job. You probably think that someone being able to get the same set of gear you have makes you less good at your job, and I think you'd be right - because your job is not Corsair or whatever FFXI construct you think it is anymore

I don't care about contest and what not, I don't care if someone else has the same thing as I do as long as if that's what he choose to focus and excel at, but I do care if someone else have the same thing for 20 jobs. That forces you to level and play as many jobs as well and not allowed to focus on 3.

You were the one saying you want to play ALL your job to fullest potential and won't miss one single WS in this game, and complained that having 3 merit WS means you can't play everything to fullest potential. And the fact that everyone owning same WS, same set of gear, 10+ job leveled and job change on the fly just erase "whatever FFXI constructed you". Ok, so let's say if there are no limit in merit WS, you have 20 jobs, have 20 merit WS, really played 20 job to fullest potential and master everything, what job are you? What can you be identify as? Are there any way other ppl can gain more identification than you by making their job standing out? They can't, no one can beat someone with everything mastered. FFXI doesn't construct you into anything, after playing all 20 job to fullest potential and got every WS in this game. You're the one with empty existence, with no identification. What are identification? One aspect of you is better than average, another aspect is worse than average, that's what makes ppl unique. You can't master all aspect, that will make you an empty existence.

With limit into 3, you make choices, and by going on one path you give up another one. That just makes the game little more interesting and offered more strategic value in terms of character development. No one is the master of everything and get everything in this game. You give up something, you gain something else on other aspect, I just don't understand what's so bad about it. If you're really worried about your job without merit WS will be "gimp" and not in fullest potential, go get an empy and problem solved. I play BLU a fk tones and joined VW pt just fine if they have a BLU spot open, I don't have an empy too, and never have a problem to join. I'm probably not playing it to fullest potential because I lack empy WS, and I never have problem with that.

Seriously idk what's the butt hurt all about, if you're afraid of not playing the job to fullest potential and master your job without merit WS, go get an empy, if you don't have empy or don't want to spend time to get it, chances are you're not playing the job to fullest potential already.

And inb4 skill can make up with gear/WS difference. If you think skill is that important that it can make up with the gear/WS difference, then you just get even less reason to butthurt because you can make up your lack of merit WS with skill.

[brayen]

You are fairly slow if you can't see the problem with needing to undertake the task of empy/relic/mythic as a solution to rendering your job inferior. Fact is there is a base line on what is to be expected from x Job. Where as once you had things like rampage, you now have the new Axe WS which is showing up as being better, and so on for all the weapon classes. Saying "oh you can't maximize a job then go get an empy" is downright insulting as a response.

[FrankReynolds]

I don't understand.

A while ago you're saying not having merit WS=gimp, and not playing the job to it's fullest potential. I just offered solution to ungimp it.

Yes you can argue that empyrean WS takes longer to get and not everyone have it etc, but most of the ppl in this game also only has 1~2 empyrean weapon since many ppl doesn't have a lot of play time to get 20 empyrean weapons for 20 job too, and 1~2 empy WS is less than 3 merit WS. In that sense their none-empyrean job are not playing to fullest potential too, I never seen anyone complain on SE forum that empyrean WS should be available to everyone and only takes 1 day to unlock. For me empyrean weapon is also a limit to pretty much 99% of ppl since 99% of ppl won't have time to get them all. A lot of ppl have many DD job leveled/geared and no empy(nor time to do an empy), never seen them QQ. A lot of ppl have multiple job leveled/geared and only play their best job with empy, never seen them QQ that they can't play their none-empy DD too.

You said you're doing an empy, chances are by the time you finish it you won't use merit WS ever again. Merit WS is not there to replace the old WS just like how empy WS isn't there to replace old WS, you should treat merit WS like a bonus, not like a must have.

If you wanna treat it like a must have, I can say empy weapons are must have too, and most ppl doesn't have more than 3. So why QQ about having only 3 merit WS?


Nope. you sorta missed the point, but I'm no master telecaster, so it may be my fault.

Most people don't have empy weapons.

Everyone will have 3 of these new WS which are for the most part close to empy WS.

No one will want you coming on a job that doesn't have 1 of the 2.



Some people have a bunch of Jobs that they have dumped millions of merits / gear /time into. They shouldn't suddenly be considered gimp because they can't put 5 merits into them.

Again, don't get this confused. I have or will have Weapons / WS for all the jobs I'm really into fairly quickly. But if I had different priorities (think melee mage, ranged jobs, Beast Master, Dark, etc.) I would be extremely pissed right now given my setup. As it is, I'm just concerned because I may get into one of those jobs next (corsair is looking really fun ATM).


A whole bunch of other crap 2 posts down..

OK, I have all 20 jobs to 95. I have gone out and earned perfect gear for every one of them. I am now just starting on my quest to build all of the Relics, all of the mythics, and all of the empys. In the mean time, I have put equal effort into all of my jobs. How is limiting me to only 3 cool WS not a problem? (encase you didn't notice I'm doing a hypothetical here. A lot of people won't level all 20, or need all the Relics etc, before they run into an issue with not being able to merit what they want.)

[Afania]

You are fairly slow if you can't see the problem with needing to undertake the task of empy/relic/mythic as a solution to rendering your job inferior. Fact is there is a base line on what is to be expected from x Job. Where as once you had things like rampage, you now have the new Axe WS which is showing up as being better, and so on for all the weapon classes. Saying "oh you can't maximize a job then go get an empy" is downright insulting as a response.

No it's the same thing. Once you had things like Sidewinder, and sidewinder was best bow WS. Then JR showed up, now JR is the best WS. Will your RNG be "inferior" without JR? When you only have enough play time to grind 3 empyrean weapon but have 20 job leveled, will you sacrifice other job's performance to pimp RNG first by grinding JR instead of other weapons?

When you have 20 job leveled, some of the bound suffer if you wanna focus on something. Although FFXI can job change, the core game concept is never about capping 20 jobs. You can lv 20 jobs sure, but some of them will be "inferior". Why? Merit, storyline mission reward choices, limited play time to spend on gears. The game concept allows you to play 20 jobs, but you specilize in one instead of master everything.

You can only pick 1 out of 3 rings from ToAU(although most of them sucked nowadays, but they weren't THAT bad before), melee ring, mage ring, or ranged attack ring. If you pick one you gonna miss another one. That's specilization. You can only pick a few in merit category. If you pick enmity- for your BLM, your PLD is gonna suck. You can only pick 2 augment for add-on reward. If you pick waltz recast time- for your DNC, your BST gonna suck without pet PDT-. The choices was there, as always. SE never allow player to master all 20 jobs at once ever since release, why suddenly act as if it's a big deal.

EDIT: Yes and it's boring if every player with both DNC and BSTs leveled are allowed to obtain 2 add-on armor and do augment for both of their jobs.

[brayen]

You completely and entirely missed my point. Sidewinder is attainable by anyone using archery as a skill(well rng anyways). JR is not(requires huge time sink of 48? or so NMs + 175? items just for lv 90). If that logic is understandable, then you should be able to grasp that the baseline was always sidewinder, if you have JR then you are in a better boat...but not due to choices, but due to time restraint. I hate to burst you bubble but empy is not the norm for everyone on every job. The fact they are limiting how well you can perform at a base level, further pushes any job lacking said skills down even further, meaning even further ostracizing jobs that do not have the empy/merit ws and such.



EDIT: Yes and it's boring if every player with both DNC and BSTs leveled are allowed to obtain 2 add-on armor and do augment for both of their jobs.

lol so then your whole game revolves around what others do/wear? as someone else having something like that is boring for u >.> in either case those armor are readily interchangeable at will and for all intents and purposes are not unlocking anything new for said jobs(small edit: this goes for 100% of armor btw).

[FrankReynolds]

You completely and entirely missed my point. Sidewinder is attainable by anyone using archery as a skill(well rng anyways). JR is not(requires huge time sink of 48? or so NMs + 175? items just for lv 90). If that logic is understandable, then you should be able to grasp that the baseline was always sidewinder, if you have JR then you are in a better boat...but not due to choices, but due to time restraint. I hate to burst you bubble but empy is not the norm for everyone on every job. The fact they are limiting how well you can perform at a base level, further pushes any job lacking said skills down even further, meaning even further ostracizing jobs that do not have the empy/merit ws and such.

I should just delete my posts and quote yours. I think the egg nog is talking too much in mine. :P

[Amador]

I like to play multiple jobs, it keeps things fresh. It would be nice if there wasn't a 3 WS Cap, due to the reason that most people this late in the game play a lot more than just 3 jobs.

I say 3, because in getting all 15 weapon skills, you're quite frankly just wasting merits. The weapon skills are terrible at level 1. So, realistically, it's 5/5 or nothing.

That aside, it's not as if they're cheap. 100 merits, even being able to hold 30 at a time is a bit of a chore. Even in an Abyssea burn party it still means having to go dump merits, go back and rebuild your lights and experience point level then rinsing and repeating 4 times just for 1 Weapon Skill at 5/5. Now if you do that same process times 15, it's quite a chore.

Now as far as the whole Relic/Mythic/Empyrean deal, those weapons offer a lot more than just a simple damage boost. So saying that these merit-able weapon skills define a job, and or limit a job to being gimp or not for not having one or the other is silly. If anything that's place for the weapons. You can use these weapons skills with a level 1 weapon, that doesn't change regardless. Relic/Mythic/Empyreans are meant to lead in damage through the utility in which they offer. As for the weapon skills, they're meant to be pretty strong it's expected they are level 99 weapon skills or rather level 96 weapon skills. Isn't that peculiar?

As a career Dragoon I'm inclined to Max Stardiver. As a Paladin and Blue Mage enthusiast, I am inclined to level Sword. The 3rd is undecided as I have to pick and choose between what I want. So, I think they should remove that silly little limit cap, and allow those who are willing to grind through that lovely 1,500,000 Experience.

[Afania]

You completely and entirely missed my point. Sidewinder is attainable by anyone using archery as a skill(well rng anyways). JR is not(requires huge time sink of 48? or so NMs + 175? items just for lv 90). If that logic is understandable, then you should be able to grasp that the baseline was always sidewinder, if you have JR then you are in a better boat...but not due to choices, but due to time restraint. I hate to burst you bubble but empy is not the norm for everyone on every job. The fact they are limiting how well you can perform at a base level, further pushes any job lacking said skills down even further, meaning even further ostracizing jobs that do not have the empy/merit ws and such.



lol so then your whole game revolves around what others do/wear? as someone else having something like that is boring for u >.> in either case those armor are readily interchangeable at will and for all intents and purposes are not unlocking anything new for said jobs(small edit: this goes for 100% of armor btw).

If empy is not for every job, then so does merit WS, it's not for every job as well, idk what's the difference. If you have the merit WS, great, you gain the advantage, if you don't, then you can still play your job if your pt happened to need that job. If situation needs a MNK, and if they can't find empy/merit WS MNK, they will still invite MNK without them. I invited many MNK during Abyssea era without BB/nyzul WS, just because I can't find a better one. If someone else in the pt happened to have an empy MNK, chances are you can't play MNK even with merit WS as well.

And yes you can change mission reward, and you can also change your merit WS, it's not like you pick one then you stuck with it for rest of your life. You just require some effort that's more than clicking a job change button to change it(like mission reward) that's all.

Yes it's boring if everyone lost it's uniqueness, I can't stress this enough.



You will always be the cookie cutter, because you foolishly think that some piece of hard to get gear gear or illogical merit limitation will make you any different. It doesn't. You can't be geared or merited to be any more unique from anyone else playing you job in the best gear loadout, but you can care about what you do. This will always make you stand out, even if you aren't the one wearing the best gear or using the best merit loadout for your job.


Let me just do one example, if player A has 1 job leveled, WHM 95, but he is the most dedicated WHM on this server.
Player B has all job 95. Both player spend same amount of time doing research on their jobs, and have almost all the best gear on both jobs. And both player has same amount of play time/resources. In terms of gears, both players are on same level, since most of the good gears are from Abyssea and doesn't take very long to obtain. However since player A focus on one job, he is a bit more knowledgeable and skilled than player B, he one of the best WHM on this server. But player B can still perform at least 90%~95% as good as player A by watching other ppl plays and read info on internet.

Now both player wants to join an event LS, but this LS only have one spot open. If you're LS leader, who're you gonna take?

It may depend on what LS needs, but I believe most of the LS leader would rather pick player B than A. Why? Player B offers way more than A ever can to a LS. You don't need a "best" WHM to clear most of the stuff, a WHM has 95% of performance can get it done just fine. But player B has way more different job to offer and way more competitant. And player A can't make it up with 5% of extra skill level.

Now after merit WS come out, player B decided to focus on DRG SAM BST, 3 of his favorite job, so he merit polearm/GK/axe. Player A of course merit club. Now player A's WHM is a lot more different than player B's. It offers unique value by having a very pimp WS and do decent dmg when needed. Now LS may invite him to events just because he offers extra unique value other WHMs doesn't have and it may be situationally useful. Does player B still get to play WHM? Yes, when player A isn't around and pt needs WHM. But player A's WHM is no longer replaceable. Does that make player B a gimp player and useless to LS? No. Player B still has 20 jobs, and still offers a lot of jobs when pt needs it, he is just not good at everything.

If you wanna choose to have every job, fine, but it's not really fair that a player plays every job is more useful than player who focus on one job. Both players are great players, player A gets club WS but doesn't make player A better than B. It only makes A's WHM better than B's, but B still has a lot of other aspect to offer. However if B gets every WS, then A no longer has it's own advantage by focusing on that job.

You can keep saying skill can make every player different, but really, in the end skill doesn't make a whole world of difference, unlike playing piano irl. If you read parse result, a dedicated DRK with every best gear and Cala probably gonna parse similar to a DRK(with 5 other DD job leveled) with every best gear and Cala, since most of the optimal sets of gears are on the internet already and you just have to swap them correctly.

It is just necessary to distinguish every player, just like every other MMO. Having skill difference isn't enough. Although you can job change, this game never allow players to master everything since day1, it's just like other MMORPGs. At lv 75 era everyone is different because gears takes months to years to obtain, lving to 75 takes months to years too. So most of the player only have enough playtime to focus on one, a PLD with aegis and ares probably not gonna wear that tier of gear on 10 other jobs too. Now with many ppl finish empy/+2 and even VW bodies in months, you pretty much have to rely on skill only(which doesn't make a whole world of difference in this game for ppl that bother to do research) to stand out if you want to focus on one job instead of 10.

If you think making player different with merit is stupid, then offer other suggestion for players to stand out on different job and create uniqueness then.

What I can think of:
1.Make gears takes months to years to obtain like it used to be so players can only pimp 1~3 jobs.....but do you want that? I highly doubt it, and I doubt most of the player base wants old FFXI back as well.

2.Make this game a whole lot more complicated like rocket science so skill/knowlege actually make more difference. You need to study for years to truely understand a job fully.

And obviously, this is even more stupid than limit with merit, this is just a game.

3. The easiest way is to limit with merit/gear rewards that you can only pick one(or three), that's the most effective, and fast way to get the result.

[Afania]

Nope. you sorta missed the point, but I'm no master telecaster, so it may be my fault.

Most people don't have empy weapons.

Everyone will have 3 of these new WS which are for the most part close to empy WS.

No one will want you coming on a job that doesn't have 1 of the 2.



Some people have a bunch of Jobs that they have dumped millions of merits / gear /time into. They shouldn't suddenly be considered gimp because they can't put 5 merits into them.





So you already realized being "gimp" or not is depending on other player's level. If everyone has AF3, you're using perle, then you're "gimp". If only 2% of player has AF3, and you're using perle, then you're just average.

So you have 3 merit WS, and every other player also have 3, idk what's so gimp about it. The amount of merit WS you have isn't lower than other ppl.

And no, merit WS won't make a very big difference about able to play a job or not. I often join /shout VW pt on BLU, and as long as there's a BLU spot open I can pretty much get in easily. I dont have empy, and everytime when I joined entire alliance has empy as long as it's DD or PLD. Compare with other player in alliance, I'm "gimp", since my gear lv is slightly on lower tier. But that doesn't stop me from playing BLU, because the alliance needs it.

If your WAR doesn't have enough merit to get merit WS, you will still get invited if the situation needs WAR and they can't find other ppl. And not having merit WS doesn't make it gimp either, since the amount of merit WS you have isn't lower than other ppl. The pt may try to find Ukko WAR first, and they may not be able to find one because not everyone have empy. Then they start to look for merit WS WAR, and they may still not be able to find one because no one merit that WS. In the end they will have to settle for the one without, then everyone with WAR leveled and no merit WS will have same chance to get in to the pt. If everyone all have merit WS on every job, chances are you still won't gain extra chance to play your WAR because other WAR has it too.

Merit WS should be like empy WS, that it offers you extra advantage when trying to get in to the pt. But if the situation really needs X job, there's no way you don't get to play it just because you don't have the WS. Of course, other ppl with that WS may get more chance than you to play that job, but it's also the same with empy. Other ppl with empy has more chance to play that job than you as well. You're only assuming that everyone can get merit WS therefore everyone else will have that WS, but that's not necessary true since not everyone will merit same WS as you do. Merit WS will NOT become a standard to judge gimp or not because not everyone has them all, period. If merit WS is a standard, then so does empy because a large amount of population has it(you can't deny that)

[SpankWustler]

Specific jobs are very rarely needed outside of White Mage and sometimes Paladin, unless it's related to procs. In fact, every single example you gave seemed to be related to procs.

Actually, let's take that further. I wonder how many people will feel the same way about being limited to 15 points across the board if these new weaponskills become part of various and sundry proc systems looming in the future. It's been said such systems won't be in all new content, and you know what that means...

They cost too many merits to switch around like spells or abilities, and I doubt very many people would merit some of them for any reason other than making a !! pop up over a monster's head. I think that kind of situation would suck rather vehemently.

At the very least, I think natively learning the horrid 20% modifer version or something similar would be really nice.

Other than that, all I got from those four paragraphs is that you're a masochist who enjoys finding Voidwatch procs on Blue Mage.

[Malamasala]

Specific jobs are very rarely needed outside of White Mage and sometimes Paladin, unless it's related to procs. In fact, every single example you gave seemed to be related to procs.

That is the theory. It is based on people not caring how long it takes to fight, or if they might lose, or if the monster has good drops. As soon as we all play according to this, jobs won't matter. Until then, the only jobs that count are the best ones, which are about 4-6 jobs total.

[FrankReynolds]

So you already realized being "gimp" or not is depending on other player's level. If everyone has AF3, you're using perle, then you're "gimp". If only 2% of player has AF3, and you're using perle, then you're just average.

So you have 3 merit WS, and every other player also have 3, idk what's so gimp about it. The amount of merit WS you have isn't lower than other ppl.


This is the part I have a problem with. I honestly didn't read the rest because I'm getting bored of it.

First part is correct. Not having the baseline gear makes you a gimp.

Second part is just..... Look... if everyone can only be good at three jobs, that is a problem.

[Economizer]

I could reiterate why you are completely wrong and your fear of people being able to merit everything somehow making you a worse player is inherently wrong, or I could just base my entire reply on pointing out how horrifically wrong your reply is. I think it is childish, but considering that I'd just be repeating my unchallenged statements again and nothing you said is even new or challenges anything I said at this point, my choices are either silence or pointing this out.

I tried silence, but this level of... for a politer way to say it, wrong, is too much to bear in silence.


Now after merit WS come out, player B decided to focus on DRG SAM BST, 3 of his favorite job, so he merit polearm/GK/axe. Player A of course merit club. Now player A's WHM is a lot more different than player B's. It offers unique value by having a very pimp WS and do decent dmg when needed. Now LS may invite him to events just because he offers extra unique value other WHMs doesn't have and it may be situationally useful. Does player B still get to play WHM? Yes, when player A isn't around and pt needs WHM. But player A's WHM is no longer replaceable. Does that make player B a gimp player and useless to LS? No. Player B still has 20 jobs, and still offers a lot of jobs when pt needs it, he is just not good at everything.

I'll admit it. I'm going to be the White Mage capping club out. I figure you are trying to appeal to me or something.

Except the situation you give is completely a joke. Sort of having Mjollnir, the Reigning High God-King of One Handed Weapons, in my possession (and even then), there is absolutely no reason any party is going to consider letting me melee on a mob, even if I can perform all my previous duties and melee at the same time.

I don't even know how you came to the conclusion that there is a situation outside of proc systems where Realmrazer is going to have parties even remotely considering having it merited as a plus for their White Mage to have, and if it is in a proc system, that means the Warrior begrudgingly has it and every other WS he can use 1/5'd, defeating the purpose, and just giving another reason why this whole allocation limit business a terrible, terrible mistake.

Considering how out of touch your statement is, I cannot even phantom how you could possibly really believe this, and I have to honestly wonder if you are actually taking this seriously, or if you are deliberately fishing for issue, or trying to stir up emotions.

I wonder why I am the only one to point this out so far... perhaps that nobody is reading your comments anymore, because they have more wisdom then I at knowing when to cut their losses.

[Afania]

This is the part I have a problem with. I honestly didn't read the rest because I'm getting bored of it.

First part is correct. Not having the baseline gear makes you a gimp.

Second part is just..... Look... if everyone can only be good at three jobs, that is a problem.

Since you didn't read the rest, I guess you missed the most important point in the post, that merit WS won't become the baseline of the job because not everyone will have it on that job.


And second part.......I already stress this over and over, but I guess you won't get it then. Allowing a player lose focus on one(or few) job in a MMORPG does more harm than good. I think That's one of the biggest complain in FFXIV, that there are very little to distinguish between each player.

[FrankReynolds]

Since you didn't read the rest, I guess you missed the most important point in the post, that merit WS won't become the baseline of the job because not everyone will have it on that job.


And second part.......I already stress this over and over, but I guess you won't get it then. Allowing a player lose focus on one(or few) job in a MMORPG does more harm than good. I think That's one of the biggest complain in FFXIV, that there are very little to distinguish between each player.

It is the baseline. You are not getting into any events on jobs with sub par damage. Everyone else will be on the jobs that they have merited ws for. That is the baseline that you will be compared to.

FFXIV sucks on so many different levels that its not even comparable. Forcing a player to only focus on three jobs is not going to make the game better. It's going to force people to sacrifice merits in jobs they like so that they can put them into the jobs that LS and Group leaders and / or the community in general wants them to. IE. I want to put merits into GA right now, but I had to remove them so that I could get Staff red proc. That is lame, although far less severe than say removing a skill entirely.

[brayen]

if you dont believe a merited WS won't become a baseline for all jobs, then you clearly won't ever get it. Maybe you still thinking exping is as hard as getting an empy? News flash it is easier to exp. i am curious at this point how you can be so adamant about limiting players to an amount of jobs...and there was a WHOLE LOT more wrong with ffxiv then some sort of distinction between each player lol not sure if that was a serious point or not. How you think these new Ws which are easily accessed and don't require a whole set of long quests, etc, to get will not be a baseline on DDing is beyond me. And these are not easily changed as mission/quest rewards, this takes a WHOLE lot longer to change from 1 WS to another as you will be making a bunch of trips to MH just to expend your merit points.

..Honestly it is like you are refusing to understand the points everyone has given you, out of curiosity do you even have or care about more then one job of yours?

[Afania]

Specific jobs are very rarely needed outside of White Mage and sometimes Paladin, unless it's related to procs. In fact, every single example you gave seemed to be related to procs.

Actually, let's take that further. I wonder how many people will feel the same way about being limited to 15 points across the board if these new weaponskills become part of various and sundry proc systems looming in the future. It's been said such systems won't be in all new content, and you know what that means...

They cost too many merits to switch around like spells or abilities, and I doubt very many people would merit some of them for any reason other than making a !! pop up over a monster's head. I think that kind of situation would suck rather vehemently.

At the very least, I think natively learning the horrid 20% modifer version or something similar would be really nice.

Other than that, all I got from those four paragraphs is that you're a masochist who enjoys finding Voidwatch procs on Blue Mage.

They shouldn't make merit WS a necessary to have in any event, instead it should be a nice bonus.

I only use blue mage as an example, why brought up all the masochist talk? It's not constructive at all and only seems childish.




I could reiterate why you are completely wrong and your fear of people being able to merit everything somehow making you a worse player is inherently wrong, or I could just base my entire reply on pointing out how horrifically wrong your reply is. I think it is childish, but considering that I'd just be repeating my unchallenged statements again and nothing you said is even new or challenges anything I said at this point, my choices are either silence or pointing this out.

I tried silence, but this level of... for a politer way to say it, wrong, is too much to bear in silence.



I'll admit it. I'm going to be the White Mage capping club out. I figure you are trying to appeal to me or something.

Except the situation you give is completely a joke. Sort of having Mjollnir, the Reigning High God-King of One Handed Weapons, in my possession (and even then), there is absolutely no reason any party is going to consider letting me melee on a mob, even if I can perform all my previous duties and melee at the same time.

I don't even know how you came to the conclusion that there is a situation outside of proc systems where Realmrazer is going to have parties even remotely considering having it merited as a plus for their White Mage to have, and if it is in a proc system, that means the Warrior begrudgingly has it and every other WS he can use 1/5'd, defeating the purpose, and just giving another reason why this whole allocation limit business a terrible, terrible mistake.

Considering how out of touch your statement is, I cannot even phantom how you could possibly really believe this, and I have to honestly wonder if you are actually taking this seriously, or if you are deliberately fishing for issue, or trying to stir up emotions.

I wonder why I am the only one to point this out so far... perhaps that nobody is reading your comments anymore, because they have more wisdom then I at knowing when to cut their losses.

First of all I do not fear being able merit everything will make someone a "worse" player. But I do believe a player focus on one job should gain some kind of advantage that is more than skill or knowledge. And appearantly you disagree, and would rather have everyone all have same level of job and rely on "skill" to make the difference, which is already lacking variety and mostly done by math. Go to an art gallery, look at all the art work, everyone's style is different. Now play FFXI, play with all the NINs or WARs, their play style/gear set won't be too different because it's the optimal set. You really think that's good?

Secondly I didn't use WHM as an example to "appeal" you, I didn't even know what your main job is. And if you think WHM with melee is useless in pt, then may I ask you why you have a set/merit? It's pointless to have, no? Any WHM without a melee set can perform as well as you do no?

I'm going to guess that's because you love WHM more than average, and you wanna play with different aspect of the job. In that case then it's really no different from merit WS, it's a bonus, and not a norm. It's the main reason we can have fun to play our job, rather than grind gear and cap gear, then start doing same thing as other players do. The reason why I will invite a WHM with melee set is more than "oo because his melee is pimp so I can use etttttt". Playing a job should be a process of discovering different value of the job, and gaining other aspect of the job, and look for new optimal ways of beating the content, instead of using 100 gear set that's exactly the same as other ppl and doing same thing as other ppl. Really, what's the point to make WHM melee set if you don't melee and strongly believed that WHM melee is useless? Personally I don't believe WHM melee is entirely useless, but appearantly you'd rather believe it is, I feel sad.

[Koren]

In this case it's 3 weapons, not 3 jobs. You could merit Dagger, Sword and H2H and be set for MNK, PUP, THF, DNC, BLU, PLD and RDM. That's 7 jobs you more or less maxed out right there. A far cry of having to merit each job individually like with job merits. If exp was as slow as it was before Abyssea we probably even relish the fact we could get several jobs finished on the same merits. But with how easy exp flows in, we no longer mind the time it takes to get these things.

I am on the side of obtaining these Weapon Skill naturally, I'm a collector and I love to collect shiny things. I was planning on leveling NIN and whichever other jobs to get the new abilities, but now I'm not encouraged to do so. I made a post a few pages back about leveling into the Weapon Skills like we normally do and have merits to augment them with different additional effects such as Criticals hits, or MP recovery, or some specific buff or debuff, or even a specific Aftermath effect. The potency/activation rate/duration of the augments would be increased with merits.

There's no real reason to argue about the gimp vs not these days. The argument has always been against the guy showing up at merit camps wearing leather armor and level 14 STR rings expecting to kill things with his bronze sword, and we are all aware he is contributing less than the 6 naked players standing next to the Dominion Ops guy. WHMs that haven't exceeded 60 couldn't possibly contribute to a party. The best they can administer is a Cure IV drip.

[Afania]

if you dont believe a merited WS won't become a baseline for all jobs, then you clearly won't ever get it. Maybe you still thinking exping is as hard as getting an empy? News flash it is easier to exp. i am curious at this point how you can be so adamant about limiting players to an amount of jobs...and there was a WHOLE LOT more wrong with ffxiv then some sort of distinction between each player lol not sure if that was a serious point or not. How you think these new Ws which are easily accessed and don't require a whole set of long quests, etc, to get will not be a baseline on DDing is beyond me. And these are not easily changed as mission/quest rewards, this takes a WHOLE lot longer to change from 1 WS to another as you will be making a bunch of trips to MH just to expend your merit points.

..Honestly it is like you are refusing to understand the points everyone has given you, out of curiosity do you even have or care about more then one job of yours?

I said ONE of the complaint, of course I know there's UI problem, content problem, but I didn't say the entire problem in FFXIV is only just job system.

In fact the way they're starting to redo job system in FFXIV proves that it doesn't really work. And which MMORPG you've played that every player has no identification? Having an identification is one the most important aspect in an MMORPG, since it's role-playing.

If you don't like merit system, then suggest SE to give players some sort of identification then? Instead of seeing every player grind 20 jobs to 99, cap all gears on them, and when you ask what job are you? You're everything, you lost it's uniqueness. You keep saying I don't get your point, but my main point is this game needs some sorts of stuff to distinguish between players since you can job change and cap gears. And skill/knowledge can't distinguish player enough either because this game isn't as complicated as rocket science/music/art and doesn't allow each player to develope unique play style when everything is done by math for optimal result. This is the point I made from the start, if you think new WS should be giving to everyone every job, fine. Come up with something else that can distinguish players and give identification then. But if not, then merit limit is the best way to go.

And to ans your Q, I have 7 jobs 75+, but yes I only care about 1, and I only lv one of them to 95 rest all stay lower than 95because I don't want to play them atm. Is that some sort of a crime? I don't enjoy playing other jobs, I lv them to 75, but I don't like it, is that such a big problem that you're not allowed to only enjoy playing one job? Personally I can use 4 merit WS, but I can only get 3, and I'm forced to give up one, do you see me QQ? Do I want all 4 WS? Yes, because playing job to fullest potential etc, but I'm happy with 3, because it's making choices, and making choices is what's fun, I sacrifice one aspect and gain another etc. I'd rather make choices, make one aspect better and one aspect worse, than capping everything I have.

[Afania]

I am on the side of obtaining these Weapon Skill naturally, I'm a collector and I love to collect shiny things. I was planning on leveling NIN and whichever other jobs to get the new abilities, but now I'm not encouraged to do so. I made a post a few pages back about leveling into the Weapon Skills like we normally do and have merits to augment them with different additional effects such as Criticals hits, or MP recovery, or some specific buff or debuff, or even a specific Aftermath effect. The potency/activation rate/duration of the augments would be increased with merits.



Actually that's a pretty good idea, but players want to cap everything gonna QQ again "WHY MY NEW WS FORCED TO BE GIMP THAT'S NOT FAIR I WANT TO PIMP EVERY JOB" again.

[brayen]

That is a crime in terms of the argument, you clearly don't care to have more then one job. That is why you will never understand the concept we are trying to lay out as you are in the position of not being affected by it unless others can get them all it would seem(this seems to be your point in either case). Not sure what you want from identification? Between job you are playing, race, and who you are (how you play) there is more then enough identification to go around. Add in major accomplishments from finishing a relic or something of that sort and you have tons of identification to go around.


Actually that's a pretty good idea, but players want to cap everything gonna QQ again "WHY MY NEW WS FORCED TO BE GIMP THAT'S NOT FAIR I WANT TO PIMP EVERY JOB" again.

and i am done talking to you after this, you clearly have it out against anyone even bothering to lvl another job so you clearly lack any insight to even discuss anything with. I hope you enjoy your one job, variety is clearly not your strong suit.

[Afania]

That is a crime in terms of the argument, you clearly don't care to have more then one job. That is why you will never understand the concept we are trying to lay out as you are in the position of not being affected by it unless others can get them all it would seem(this seems to be your point in either case). Not sure what you want from identification? Between job you are playing, race, and who you are (how you play) there is more then enough identification to go around. Add in major accomplishments from finishing a relic or something of that sort and you have tons of identification to go around.

Yes but I also pointed out that I can use more than 3 and won't QQ if I can't get them all even if I want them all. I am still affected by it, and unable to reach fullest potential because of it, but I think getting identification is more important atm, so I'm fine. I don't see how we're not on same start baseline about this arguement.

You said to distinguish player by jobs playing, but you can job change already, I don't see how job can distinguish players unless everyone's job develope differently(and they don't). How you play is already set in stones most of the time. The only way to make the difference is really just gears that takes very long time to obtain since most ppl wont have enough resources to get all 20. And That's really just Mythic/relic.

So you pretty much have to grind a relic/mythic to stand out? That doesn't sound very friendly to most players. Merit/storyline reward is really the only way that's average player friendly.




and i am done talking to you after this, you clearly have it out against anyone even bothering to lvl another job so you clearly lack any insight to even discuss anything with. I hope you enjoy your one job, variety is clearly not your strong suit.


I'm not "against" other ppl with many jobs, I just don't think everyone should cap everything is that so hard to understand?

If you like 20 jobs, fine. If you want to pimp 20 jobs, fine. It's your monthly fee and you play however you want that's not my business. Have variety is good, but forcing other ppl to play jobs they don't like is not.

[brayen]

Yes but I also pointed out that I can use more than 3 and won't QQ if I can't get them all even if I want them all. I am still affected by it, and unable to reach fullest potential because of it, but I think getting identification is more important atm, so I'm fine. I don't see how we're not on same start baseline about this arguement.

You said to distinguish player by jobs playing, but you can job change already, I don't see how job can distinguish players unless everyone's job develope differently(and they don't). How you play is already set in stones most of the time. The only way to make the difference is really just gears that takes very long time to obtain since most ppl wont have enough resources to get all 20. And That's really just Mythic/relic.

So you pretty much have to grind a relic/mythic to stand out? That doesn't sound very friendly to most players. Merit/storyline reward is really the only way that's average player friendly.

and again you missed the point.

You said you have only 1 job at 95, so i am unsure what else i need to even say about your bias opinions on the subject after everything you have already said. I am not talking about 2 jobs at 95 i am talking about jobs you have lvled and well geared and you have taken time to adjust.

You do distinguish by jobs, to start with not every two people play the same or best at x job, if you are unable to understand this then i am unsure what to tell you. I cant heal the best which is why i have hardly done it, doesn't stop me from trying to attain gear for said job (cure magian staff for example) and get better at it. completing empy and such is just another thing i mentioned to distinguish, but you clearly saw fit to dismiss any of my other points on this godly "identification" you cling to.



I'm not "against" other ppl with many jobs, I just don't think everyone should cap everything is that so hard to understand?

If you like 20 jobs, fine. If you want to pimp 20 jobs, fine. It's your monthly fee and you play however you want that's not my business. Have variety is good, but forcing other ppl to play jobs they don't like is not.

How in the world are you forcing others to play jobs they dont like? you have blown me away i think i might of clicked the wrong forum language x.x

[Afania]

and again you missed the point.

You said you have only 1 job at 95, so i am unsure what else i need to even say about your bias opinions on the subject after everything you have already said. I am not talking about 2 jobs at 95 i am talking about jobs you have lvled and well geared and you have taken time to adjust.

You do distinguish by jobs, to start with not every two people play the same or best at x job, if you are unable to understand this then i am unsure what to tell you. I cant heal the best which is why i have hardly done it, doesn't stop me from trying to attain gear for said job (cure magian staff for example) and get better at it. completing empy and such is just another thing i mentioned to distinguish, but you clearly saw fit to dismiss any of my other points on this godly "identification" you cling to.
How in the world are you forcing others to play jobs they dont like? you have blown me away i think i might of clicked the wrong forum language x.x

I can say you're biased too because merit limit benefits ppl with 1~3 jobs more, but not ppl with 10~20 jobs. So ppl with 10~20 jobs thinks it's unfair, but that's baised. You're only QQ because you're not the one getting the benefit more.

On the other hand fast capping gear in Abyssea era benefits ppl with 10~20 jobs more and doesn't benefit ppl focus on 1~3 jobs, since ppl with 10~20 jobs already gain the benefit of capping gear on 20 jobs what's wrong with balancing it?

If player A with only WHM leveled, and player B has 20 job leveled but focus on DRG and SAM, player A's WHM should be better than player B's WHM. I have no problem if player B choose to focus on WHM and his WHM ended up as good as player A. But if player B choose to focus on DRG and SAM, and his WHM is still as good as player A, then there's a problem in this game.

I have NO PROBLEM with ppl lving 20 jobs, but ppl who has 20 jobs can only reach top on a few, have every job reach top just doesn't make sense in any way.

You're the one missing the point. The job you focus on should be your best, doesn't matter how many other job you leveled. But if you don't focus on that job and it's still as good as player focusing on that job(again, since you can cap gear in months you don't really need to focus on a job to reach on the top) then it's bad for a MMORPG.

[brayen]

if someone is focusing on x job over another given equal time then it shouldn't matter if player b had extra time to perfect another job as well. Your point is entirely skipping time given which is an important factor here. If one person only wants or has time to lvl one job they should NOT be limiting everyone else potential. That is so retarded i can't even express words. It is like saying "kid b cant play video games so everyone else has to play what he wants"

the fact that someone is being forced to ONLY have a few top jobs renders the rest utterly worthless therefore you are forcing people tp abandon other jobs, if you can't grasp that then you clearly just trying to get everyone else to play like you..which is 1-3 jobs at 95 the rest of your efforts(time given) be dam.

[Afania]

if someone is focusing on x job over another given equal time then it shouldn't matter if player b had extra time to perfect another job as well. Your point is entirely skipping time given which is an important factor here. If one person only wants or has time to lvl one job they should NOT be limiting everyone else potential. That is so retarded i can't even express words. It is like saying "kid b cant play video games so everyone else has to play what he wants"

the fact that someone is being forced to ONLY have a few top jobs renders the rest utterly worthless therefore you are forcing people tp abandon other jobs, if you can't grasp that then you clearly just trying to get everyone else to play like you..which is 1-3 jobs at 95 the rest of your efforts(time given) be dam.

Except time isn't important factor nowadays when you can finish +2/empy in weeks. It would work if it's old FFXI since you only have time to grind gears for 1~3 jobs, but now you can grind gears for 20 jobs and become the best for everything in same time frame. If you want to make one of your job stand out by focusing on one, your only chance is pretty much to go get a relic/mythic. Again, I have no problem if ppl has extra time to pimp all 20 jobs too, but pimping one job nowadays doesn't require as much time as it used to be, that everyone can pretty much cap it with very little effort.

Your other jobs won't be useless even if it's not the best, just because certain jobs may be needed. I invited THF to pt for TH many times even though he has better geared SAM and NIN. The only job that will get affected is really just DD job, which already has hiearchy before merit WS release.


I feel I'm talking in circles. I already made all my points very clear for pages, that only ppl who spend most effort on that job is the best, if you want to spend effort on other job you can't be best on this job. And it has nothing to do with me, my job, how many job I have and how good/bad my jobs are, it's just how this game should work, and how rl works too.

But you just won't get it, and insist that you want to cap 20 jobs. There are really no point to talk about it anymore. I offered different ideas to make your jobs to stand out if that person want to focus on that, but you won't accept. So I think we should just stop and let SE decide what to do next.

[Greatguardian]

It doesn't really matter anyways.

The number of people who actually hit the theoretical maximum on more than 3 jobs that actually use weapons is extremely slim as is.

Even if we had the option of maxing all 14 WS, you wouldn't have many people maxing every job. Sure, it's not hard to play any of them, but simply being well geared is a far cry from perfection. Even then, how well geared is the average player? Answer: Not.

Sure, literally anyone can finish Emps in anywhere from a few days to a couple weeks. Doesn't mean they do.

[Amador]

It doesn't really matter anyways.

The number of people who actually hit the theoretical maximum on more than 3 jobs that actually use weapons is extremely slim as is.

Even if we had the option of maxing all 14 WS, you wouldn't have many people maxing every job. Sure, it's not hard to play any of them, but simply being well geared is a far cry from perfection. Even then, how well geared is the average player? Answer: Not.

Sure, literally anyone can finish Emps in anywhere from a few days to a couple weeks. Doesn't mean they do.

That doesn't imply there should be a limitation to it. Yes people do, those that care to do so do.

There's a wide difference in players, from those who are average joe's to the elitest core who actually excel and perform on whatever job they get on because they've taken the time to invest into being useful to that degree.

This is a huge difference compared to the type of player who simply has 2 jobs to offer, that aren't required for x event due to whatever reason and or other people who have the same jobs that do the jobs better. It's about being able to utilize what you have available to form solid tactics, not to just rofl through an event only to stand up and say: What do I lot?

[Greatguardian]

I think you misinterpreted my post.

Even among the elitist core, how many people have a slew of perfect geared jobs? I'm talking perfect, not above average or even awesome. Perfect. Absolute best of everything for everything.

The answer is very few. Exceedingly few. So few that Afania really has nothing to worry about. You will never, ever see a massive horde of perfect geared players with multiple perfect jobs and no variance in FFXI. Knowing the maximum is one thing. Perfecting everything? That's a feat. When most people can't even be assed to get an Empyrean or two, you really don't have to worry about everyone being the same.

[Mirage]

You are fairly slow if you can't see the problem with needing to undertake the task of empy/relic/mythic as a solution to rendering your job inferior. Fact is there is a base line on what is to be expected from x Job. Where as once you had things like rampage, you now have the new Axe WS which is showing up as being better, and so on for all the weapon classes. Saying "oh you can't maximize a job then go get an empy" is downright insulting as a response.

Implying 90% the playerbase doesn't already see you as inferior if you don't have an empyrean WS.

[brayen]

Implying 90% the playerbase doesn't already see you as inferior if you don't have an empyrean WS.

Thank you for further accentuating my point. Needing an emp is beyond retarded as a base level, these WS are easy enough to attain and are at least comparable (and in some cases better) then emp. ws. The fact they are being restricted pushes the typical/average player even lower in terms of performance, as the typical/average player do not wield emp but do have multiple jobs. I just don't see why some people are so against this. All we are saying is to not restrict what everyone can learn, i don't want to see people still using lv 60 WS at 99 and frankly if people are coming up with shortage on merit space this is what will happen, and i cant see anyone wanting said jobs(this feels like the old argument of "baww i camped HNM too much why arnt i special anymorez, stupidz new gear")

[SpankWustler]

They shouldn't make merit WS a necessary to have in any event, instead it should be a nice bonus.

I only use blue mage as an example, why brought up all the masochist talk? It's not constructive at all and only seems childish.

What the development team probably "should" be doing and what they do tend to vary tremendously. I find it best to live in fear.

Sorry, I didn't mean it to be an insult. Just a reference to how miserable the workings of Voidwatch procs can be for Blue Mage, since you specifically mentioned Voidwatch and Blue Mage. I don't know anyone who has reported happiness with Blue Mage in relation to Voidwatch, particularly the proc system.

I probably should have been more clear and just said "Blue Mage in Voidwatch with a candlestick" is a pretty weird example of a specific job being needed for a thing. So weird, in fact, that I assumed it was a personal anecdote and you don't mind how brutal Voidwatch can be for Blue Mage.

I also tend to assume most folks on the internet are pretty gruff with language, but obviously that's not always the case. Sorry that my comment bothered you.


The answer is very few. Exceedingly few. So few that Afania really has nothing to worry about. You will never, ever see a massive horde of perfect geared players with multiple perfect jobs and no variance in FFXI. Knowing the maximum is one thing. Perfecting everything? That's a feat. When most people can't even be assed to get an Empyrean or two, you really don't have to worry about everyone being the same.

You can even take this further. Even if someone had the time to make a whole bunch of Empyrean and Mythic and Relic weapons and got lucky enough with Voidwatch drops and sky and abjuration augmentation and whatever else I am forgetting, they would then be faced with another issue.

Loads and loads of equipment to store and manage. Sometimes, in cases like Red Mage and Blue Mage, even figuring out what to carry in the limited equip-from-able space for one job. The bestest Blue Mage has the best Charged Whisker set. The bestest Blue Mage has the best Sanguine Blade set. The bestest Blue Mage has the best Breathe set. And so on.

So yeah, I doubt anyone is in any danger of being the bestest of the bester at a large number of jobs.

[Feliciaa]

Sooooo much QQ over such a simple thing. just pick the best 3 WSs for your play style and own stuff. This is not rocket science. Lol

[brayen]

Sooooo much QQ over such a simple thing. just pick the best 3 WSs for your play style and own stuff. This is not rocket science. Lol

by that logic lets not give any feedback and delete the forums altogether?

[Economizer]

Sooooo much QQ over such a simple thing. just let the folks using rational arguments and logic make it so everyone can merit as much as they want and do their own stuff. This is not rocket science. Lol How do people honestly talk like this?

[Feliciaa]

Sooooo much QQ over such a simple thing. just let the folks using rational arguments and logic make it so everyone can merit as much as they want and do their own stuff. This is not rocket science. Lol How do people honestly talk like this?

This whole thing is not even close to a rational argument.... The design team has never allowed players to max out any merit category. There has always been a limit on the total you can spend. So asking them to suddenly let players max every WS makes no sense at all and does not even follow the basic design concept behind the merit point system.

[FrankReynolds]

Sooooo much QQ over such a simple thing. just pick the best 3 WSs for your play style and own stuff. This is not rocket science. Lol


LOL @ Missing the point

[Selzak]

I don't care if we all had every job at 99 (we will soon enough, EXP is lol and that isn't much of an accomplishment). Forcing us to make choices creates variation and that's good. It's not even permanent; you can change it up after a while if you want. You made a permanent choice on your character's effectiveness at certain things when you chose your race, and you've always made choices with merits that have pros/cons depending on what job you're playing.

[brayen]

If this was restricted via job only fine, but its making you choose between jobs, and no one is going to lvl all jobs if they dont like said jobs (at least i hope not) so that's sorta silly to consider. I am starting to think people would be happier if group 1 and 2 for merits were also limited to 15 total >.>

[Afania]

Sorry, I didn't mean it to be an insult. Just a reference to how miserable the workings of Voidwatch procs can be for Blue Mage, since you specifically mentioned Voidwatch and Blue Mage. I don't know anyone who has reported happiness with Blue Mage in relation to Voidwatch, particularly the proc system.

I probably should have been more clear and just said "Blue Mage in Voidwatch with a candlestick" is a pretty weird example of a specific job being needed for a thing. So weird, in fact, that I assumed it was a personal anecdote and you don't mind how brutal Voidwatch can be for Blue Mage.




I guess using BLU in VW is a bad example then, but I also used THF as example, that when TH is needed nobody would care whether it has good gear/certain WS or not. And since most of the important game content nowadays are proc based, coming on certain job mostly are based on proc instead of your job's performance.


This whole thing is not even close to a rational argument.... The design team has never allowed players to max out any merit category. There has always been a limit on the total you can spend. So asking them to suddenly let players max every WS makes no sense at all and does not even follow the basic design concept behind the merit point system.

And everyone should totally suggest SE to delete the difference between each race too since taru WAR has lower STR than Elvaan WAR thus not playing WAR to fullest potential. And race difference shouldn't exist in a game that can job change.

I think the best solution of this that may make everyone happy is to increase the mod of 1/5 for each WS greatly, that way you have 15 merit to spend, you can choose 1/5 on 10 weapons and 5/5 on one weapon. The weapon you do 1/5 is gonna be 100 dmg lower than 5/5 people, but that's very small difference and totally acceptable for someone without empy/relic to use and do acceptable dmg, you're just not gonna beat 5/5 ppl.

And if you think that's not acceptable that you must do as much dmg as everyone else on 20 jobs, then I really don't know what to say.

From a game designing prospective, a lot of other long time RPGs, like fallout, D&D and such allows you to customize your charater. I can create a character with low STR, but very high INT and speech skill, I can talk through everything, but when I gonna face a fight, I'm gonna have a hard time, and I'm unable to use some of the best weapon/armor in the game. Or I can create a completely different character, a strong fighter but not so good at dealing with others. But I can not create a character that's both good at fighting and equip best weapons, and still able to talk through every NPCs.

It is articifical limitation, and that's what makes the game fun, by creating limitations. I'm forced to think of a way to get out of the situations based on my strength and weakness. Instead of having a character that's perfect and able to deal with everything and reach fullest potential of everything. I'm not going to experience everything on this character, but that's what makes the game interesting.

FFXI at least it allows you to redo storyline reward and redo merit points(even though it's a lot), so you're still able to experience everything on one single character without creating a new one, besides race difference.

And inb4 FFXI is not Fallout. Most of the RPGs more or less follow the basic concept of making the game, and that's how those games are sucessful. I don't see any reason for FFXI not to follow it and allow every character cap everything.

[Afania]

If this was restricted via job only fine, but its making you choose between jobs, and no one is going to lvl all jobs if they dont like said jobs (at least i hope not) so that's sorta silly to consider. I am starting to think people would be happier if group 1 and 2 for merits were also limited to 15 total >.>

Group 1~2 is meant to create variation between each jobs, so your NIN will be different from my NIN based on different merit, although in the end after most optimal merit choices are discovered, 90% of G1 G2 merits are the same.

Stats/skills are meant to create variation between character. So player A with NIN WAR BLM WHM leveled will have different focus from playr B with same job leveled. Merit WS is just an extention of combat skill. You don't have to keep thinking SE is against player with 20 job leveled and whoever has 1~3 jobs are not allowed to disagree with you. Merit, alone with race and story reward, is really just there to create variations.

[Kysaiana]

I highly doubt SE will keep the cap at 15 forever. Attributes started out at 5 and now, or rather soon, will cap at 12. While I wish the cap was higher already, I don't see it as such a huge deal considering many of the new WS, while awesome looking, are either similar or even lower in damage than the standard WS used for each particular weapon. Entropy is about the same as guillotine, Shijin Spiral is about the same or lower than Stringing pummel or Victory Smite etc. Club and Staff are by far the best physical damage WS for both weapons, but their uses would be pretty situational. I'll probably end up maxing 1 or 2 WS out and then unlock 5 or so ws just for fun and hope they eventually raise the cap so I can max more out later.

tl;dr Maxing out all the weapons skills for every skill your jobs have would be cool, but I can see why they limited the merit cap for now. Hopefully they will raise it in the near future.

[Mirage]

Thank you for further accentuating my point. Needing an emp is beyond retarded as a base level, these WS are easy enough to attain and are at least comparable (and in some cases better) then emp. ws. The fact they are being restricted pushes the typical/average player even lower in terms of performance, as the typical/average player do not wield emp but do have multiple jobs. I just don't see why some people are so against this. All we are saying is to not restrict what everyone can learn, i don't want to see people still using lv 60 WS at 99 and frankly if people are coming up with shortage on merit space this is what will happen, and i cant see anyone wanting said jobs(this feels like the old argument of "baww i camped HNM too much why arnt i special anymorez, stupidz new gear")

I disagree, I think it will actually more close the gap between empy users and non-empy users. Take this somewhat realistic example:

Player 1: I have mnk war and sam, but I feel pretty gimp on war and especially on sam because I have neither ukko's or fudo. I mainly play mnk because i have revenant fists/verethranga there.

Player 2: I have war mnk sam and i have ukonvasara, masamune and verethranga. I play pretty much whatever I want, lol.

*after update*

Player 1 : Oh hay, that new gkatana is actually pretty good. if I merit that and use a tp bonus gk, I'll actually perform decently.

Player 2: Hm, some of those new WSes rival the empy WSes if you don't count the aftermath. Guess I'll get the Gkatana one to use when sekkanoki/meditate is up!

The best use I see for these merit WSes is to fill in the empy-WS gaps of your character. Use them on jobs that you don't care enough about to make an empy for, but still want to use now and then.

[saevel]

I disagree, I think it will actually more close the gap between empy users and non-empy users. Take this somewhat realistic example:

Player 1: I have mnk war and sam, but I feel pretty gimp on war and especially on sam because I have neither ukko's or fudo. I mainly play mnk because i have revenant fists/verethranga there.

Player 2: I have war mnk sam and i have ukonvasara, masamune and verethranga. I play pretty much whatever I want, lol.

*after update*

Player 1 : Oh hay, that new gkatana is actually pretty good. if I merit that and use a tp bonus gk, I'll actually perform decently.

Player 2: Hm, some of those new WSes rival the empy WSes if you don't count the aftermath. Guess I'll get the Gkatana one to use when sekkanoki/meditate is up!

The best use I see for these merit WSes is to fill in the empy-WS gaps of your character. Use them on jobs that you don't care enough about to make an empy for, but still want to use now and then.

Pretty much this.

Most of the new WS's seem to be directed at people / jobs who don't have emps. The new sword one is 5 hits with up to 100% MND WSC and TP mod is +attack. CDC will still beat it, but for those RDMs without CDC it makes an amazing alternative, especially once you consider that RDM has access to tons of +MND gear and tends to have lowish attack. BLU and PLD both have vorpal blade. Outside abyssea the new sword one will most likely be stronger then vorpal, so it's still an upgrade just not as big as going to CDC. Same with the SAM and WAR ones. I have CDC so I most likely won't get the sword weapon skill and instead get the GAXE / GKT due to me not having a ukon / fudo.

[FrankReynolds]

I disagree, I think it will actually more close the gap between empy users and non-empy users. Take this somewhat realistic example: ....... <example here>.....

.

I'm pretty sure that you just agreed with everything he said. Only difference being (maybe) that he doesn't want the merits capped to 3 WS.


Group 1~2 is meant to create variation between each jobs, so your NIN will be different from my NIN based on different merit, although in the end after most optimal merit choices are discovered, 90% of G1 G2 merits are the same.

Bolded for importance. This is why limiting the number of WS that can be merited will be nothing but a hindrance. People will still end up putting them into what is considered the best, instead of what they want, and there will be very little of that customization through limitation you so desire.


Merit, alone with race and story reward, is really just there to create variations.

And you already agree that there are plenty of other ways to customize without adding more limitations...

Artificial limitations are not what make games fun. If that were true, nobody would bother leveling at all. It would all be about who can get through the game with the lowest merits and worst gear.

[Afania]

Bolded for importance. This is why limiting the number of WS that can be merited will be nothing but a hindrance. People will still end up putting them into what is considered the best, instead of what they want, and there will be very little of that customization through limitation you so desire.



No it won't, ppl will merit the WS for their favorite job, or the job they play the most. There are no limit in the number of WS you can get, you can get all 15, just that 1/5 sucked too much that it's 5/5 or gtfo. The only fix they need is to pimp 1/5~4/5 to make them worth while that's all.




And you already agree that there are plenty of other ways to customize without adding more limitations...

Artificial limitations are not what make games fun. If that were true, nobody would bother leveling at all. It would all be about who can get through the game with the lowest merits and worst gear.



There are already articifical limitations and it doesn't stop ppl from lving all 20 jobs. If you're a galka NIN, your evasion won't be as high as mithra NIN. If you're a taru WAR, your dmg won't be as high elvaan WAR. If you merit enmity- for your BLM, your PLD gonna suck and so on. And yet we still see plenty of Galka NIN, taru WAR, ppl lv both PLD and BLM and so on. Are they play their job to fullest potential? No. But they still play different jobs and aim to get better and make up the small difference with gears/skill.

You already can't be best at everything in this game, and I don't see how ppl would ended up getting through the game with lowest merits and worst gear.

The only problem with merit WS is 1/5~3/5 or maybe even 4/5 are not worth getting, therefore there aren't much choice to make. If 1/5 is still good enough and worth getting it, I don't see how this can be a problem at all. It's not like the end of the world if one of your job doing is 100 less dmg with 1/5 than ppl with 5/5.

[FrankReynolds]

No it won't, ppl will merit the WS for their favorite job, or the job they play the most. There are no limit in the number of WS you can get, you can get all 15, just that 1/5 sucked too much that it's 5/5 or gtfo. The only fix they need is to pimp 1/5~4/5 to make them worth while that's all.


No one is going to do 1/5, or any variation of that. 5/5 is the only way they are powerful enough to be worth it. Please stop saying people can do 1/1.


There are already articifical limitations and it doesn't stop ppl from lving all 20 jobs. If you're a galka NIN, your evasion won't be as high as mithra NIN. If you're a taru WAR, your dmg won't be as high elvaan WAR. If you merit enmity- for your BLM, your PLD gonna suck and so on. And yet we still see plenty of Galka NIN, taru WAR, ppl lv both PLD and BLM and so on. Are they play their job to fullest potential? No. But they still play different jobs and aim to get better and make up the small difference with gears/skill.

You already can't be best at everything in this game, and I don't see how ppl would ended up getting through the game with lowest merits and worst gear.

The only problem with merit WS is 1/5~3/5 or maybe even 4/5 are not worth getting, therefore there aren't much choice to make. If 1/5 is still good enough and worth getting it, I don't see how this can be a problem at all. It's not like the end of the world if one of your job doing is 100 less dmg with 1/5 than ppl with 5/5.

Yes, there are already very small choices that must be made when meriting basic stats. Nobody calls that fun. They just deal with it. Not one single person has ever ever ever said "Hey SE, do you guys think you could add more category caps, and make the merits MORE specific, so that I have absolutely no chance off being good at both a mage and a DD class on the same character? I'm really tired of the temptation to do both.". Nobody likes that. they just accept it.

Why merit anything at all if you don't care that your jobs does less damage than others?

[Greatguardian]

How many of the WS are gamebreakingly worth getting, though? It's not like they're all best-in-class skills. Most are a sidegrade at best next to their respective Empyrean WS, with or without Aftermath.

Honestly it feels more like a casual alternative to Empyreans to me. If you can't get Smite, get Shijin Spiral. If you don't have Drakesbane, get Stardriver. If you don't have Torcleaver, get Resolution. If you don't have a Mandau, get the dagger WS that I can't be assed to spell. You get a free pass on being awesome through merits without having to build an ultimate weapon.

The only really ridiculous Empyrean-killer in the bunch (disclaimer: For melee DD jobs) is Shoha. Oh god, Shoha.

[Kincard]

I dunno if anyone has mentioned it yet, but a couple nice options opened up by these new weapon skills is kinda dampened by the fact of how few weapons for non-specialist jobs have been released past 75. By that I mean most clubs released have been for PLD and WHM, most good daggers for THF, DNC, BRD, etc.

Like how BLU has access to a good club WS now in case you're fighting skeletons or something (Yeah I know there's plenty of blunt spells, but it's nice to have melee swings be stronger too, and BLU has a B- with the things anyway), but the last decent club for BLU was like, Mighty Cudgel or something back at level 70. There hasn't been any decent spears for WAR or SAM for a couple levels, etc. Hoping they add some new weapons to compensate for this, otherwise the multi-job nature of these WS is kinda pointless in terms of damage type flexibility.

[Greatguardian]

As far as Polearms go, Quint Spear is going to be pretty decent for these new WS considering the vast majority of their functional damage rating is going to be coming from WSC.

[Afania]

Yes, there are already very small choices that must be made when meriting basic stats. Nobody calls that fun. They just deal with it. Not one single person has ever ever ever said "Hey SE, do you guys think you could add more category caps, and make the merits MORE specific, so that I have absolutely no chance off being good at both a mage and a DD class on the same character? I'm really tired of the temptation to do both.". Nobody likes that. they just accept it.

Why merit anything at all if you don't care that your jobs does less damage than others?


What's so fun about playing a RPG if you can't create an unique aspect of your character, unless you go do relic/mythic and fill your inventory with 0.00001% situational pieces. A character's uniqueness based on gear grinding, inventory filling and "play style"(which never exist in this game) is pretty lame.

It's pretty pointless to create a character in a RPG that has nothing special, no weakness and no strength, nothing stands out. Unless your definition of fun is to be the very best at everything, do best dmg and won't allow even 0.1% of difference when comparing with someone else. If that's the case, then I really have nothing to say, since my definition of fun in a RPG, is different from you. For me a taru WAR doing 0.1% lower dmg than elvaan is personality, the unique aspect of being a taru WAR, for you it's hinderance to compete with other ppl.

I care about the role-playing element and being unique, if you only care about competition then that's too bad.

And personally I don't believe every_single_player in this game has same definition as you or me as well. Saying "nobody likes that, they just accept it" is just false assumption. Or else nobody would ever play a taru WAR, or galka mage, even though they know their DD/mage aspect would suck before they create their character.



No one is going to do 1/5, or any variation of that. 5/5 is the only way they are powerful enough to be worth it. Please stop saying people can do 1/1.



If you're only doing merit WS for your none-empy jobs, and if SE can raise mod of 1/5 to 80%, I don't see what's the very big deal about doing 1/5 for your none-empy jobs. You just want an acceptable performance and get invite to pt no? If you want performance that's above acceptable go do an empy/WoE. Doing 50 less dmg than other ppl is not the end of the world, kid. You will still get invited.


How many of the WS are gamebreakingly worth getting, though? It's not like they're all best-in-class skills. Most are a sidegrade at best next to their respective Empyrean WS, with or without Aftermath.



GK dagger gun(although for RNG probably not so much) club(although I think PLD BLU can totally just use almace) Axe.

Or maybe sword when needing none-elemental dmg.

The real game changing ones are not even more than 3~4.

[Greatguardian]

Gun is 4.0-4.5 fTP 100% AGI stacked against 5.5 fTP 60% AGI. It's a solid competitor/alternative to Wildfire, but I wouldn't say it crushes it. Armageddon gets ODD too.

[FrankReynolds]

What's so fun about playing a RPG if you can't create an unique aspect of your character, unless you go do relic/mythic and fill your inventory with 0.00001% situational pieces. A character's uniqueness based on gear grinding, inventory filling and "play style"(which never exist in this game) is pretty lame.

So your in favor of limiting merits, and you don't like the gearing aspect... how else do I enhance my Job performance (beside the obvious "just play better")?


It's pretty pointless to create a character in a RPG that has nothing special, no weakness and no strength, nothing stands out. Unless your definition of fun is to be the very best at everything, do best dmg and won't allow even 0.1% of difference when comparing with someone else. If that's the case, then I really have nothing to say, since my definition of fun in a RPG, is different from you. For me a taru WAR doing 0.1% lower dmg than elvaan is personality, the unique aspect of being a taru WAR, for you it's hinderance to compete with other ppl.

The jobs already have strengths and weakness. I can't melee Quiln on my whm. I can't main cure on monk. I don't need any merits or gear to prove that.


I care about the role-playing element and being unique, if you only care about competition then that's too bad.

It sounds to me like you want to be better at something just because you picked a certain job, and not have to actually put any work into meriting / gearing said job. That's cool and all, but an MMO that doesn't allow improvement of ones character is a dead MMO in a very short time frame. I mean, I guess if this was street fighter or mortal kombat, that would be cool, but it's not. I can go play a game with a clear beginning and end (not and MMORPG) if I don't want to build my character over time.


And personally I don't believe every_single_player in this game has same definition as you or me as well. Saying "nobody likes that, they just accept it" is just false assumption. Or else nobody would ever play a taru WAR, or galka mage, even though they know their DD/mage aspect would suck before they create their character.

Go back and read all your posts, and see how many little thumbs up you got.

EDIT: If people could switch races like they switch jobs, very very very few people would play melee jobs on taru. For instance. My taru started as WHM. He now has E.body, Black belt etc. I would love to change him to a hume. I can't. I suspect that some people picked tarus cuz they like them, many picked them because they wanted to make a mage char. None picked them because they like having low HP and Melee stats.


If you're only doing merit WS for your none-empy jobs, and if SE can raise mod of 1/5 to 80%, I don't see what's the very big deal about doing 1/5 for your none-empy jobs. You just want an acceptable performance and get invite to pt no? If you want performance that's above acceptable go do an empy/WoE. Doing 50 less dmg than other ppl is not the end of the world, kid. You will still get invited.

Using it at 1/5 would be worse than existing WS that people get as low as 60 in some cases. That will never happen, but keep repeating "1/5 is fine". Some people swear that affirmations work.

[Alhanelem]

The jobs already have strengths and weakness. I can't melee Quiln on my whm. I can't main cure on monk. I don't need any merits or gear to prove that. The strengths and weaknesses are over other people playing the same roles as you. Lots of people have <job> leveled, but not everyone has invested their merits in a way to optimize <job>. Especially now when many people have 10+ jobs leveled, there's not many ways to stand out besides gear and "not sucking." Limiting merits adds another way.

The WHOLE POINT of merits was to allow players to spec out a certain way- not just to provide a general, generic boost to stats- If that were the case, it may as well have just been more levels with no new spells/abilities.

[newmonkey]

What they need to do is remove the - Attack penatly on resolution this is just stupid and silly to have on.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Looks like Resolution isn't alone in that, Blade: Shun looks to have one and possibly Requeiscat as well.

[Byrth]

Exenterator has also been underperforming my expectations, but I need to do a more controlled test to be sure.

[Urteil]

Ohhhh maaan, does the Great Katana one not have an attack penalty?

OH SHIT WHAT A SURPRISE!

(Seriously, does it?)

[Neisan_Quetz]

Nope, GK seems to have an cratio bonus similar to Y/G/K.

[FrankReynolds]

The strengths and weaknesses are over other people playing the same roles as you. Lots of people have <job> leveled, but not everyone has invested their merits in a way to optimize <job>. Especially now when many people have 10+ jobs leveled, there's not many ways to stand out besides gear and "not sucking." Limiting merits adds another way.

The WHOLE POINT of merits was to allow players to spec out a certain way- not just to provide a general, generic boost to stats- If that were the case, it may as well have just been more levels with no new spells/abilities.

There is a big difference between not having a few points of strength merits, or 8/8 GK, and not having the weapon skill to use them. And the not many ways to stand out thing is pretty weak, I doubt you know very many people who have every one of their ten+ jobs pimped out. Even if you did, I'm willing to bet that the guy who does that is building/has built end game weapons for those jobs too. These caps only hurt the people who don't have all the best gear yet, and thus are differentiated by gear and levels of suck. People should be differentiated by gear they have earned / levels of suck anyways. They shouldn't be different because of artificial limitations that automatically make a person suck on one job and shine on another.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Well, with the new information coming out, I won't have to worry about meriting one of the 4 weaponskills I was considering, huzzah!

[Afania]

So your in favor of limiting merits, and you don't like the gearing aspect... how else do I enhance my Job performance (beside the obvious "just play better")?




I NEVER said I don't like gearing aspect, stop putting words in my mouth. I only said it needs more than gearing aspect. You can get every gear in this game literally, how'd you stand out if other ppl can get every other same gear too?





The jobs already have strengths and weakness. I can't melee Quiln on my whm. I can't main cure on monk. I don't need any merits or gear to prove that.


No I'm NOT talking about job's strength and weakness, I'm talking about strength and weakness as a character. What makes you think it's totally ok for a character with 10 job leveled, and spend 1/10 of time to gear/play PLD should be as good as a career PLD that plays PLD 95% of time, invest 95% of time to work on PLD? If someone's a career PLD, his PLD should be different than average PLDs, period.

If you want to focus on that job, your that job should be better than others, if you're willing to sacrifice other aspect. Other ppl who doesn't sacrifice other aspect to focus on one isn't "gimp", but they're just not the best. What makes you think it's totally ok if everyone can reach best, as best as the one who focus?(even though it's very hard in practice)

And it has nothing to do with me, it's just how many other RPGs works too, not because I want something so I'm saying this. Besides universal difference like gear/job, and indiviual player difference like reading forum/reaction speed, each CHARACTER also needs a difference that's more than name and appearance. Especially since you can job change, your character needs an identity.




It sounds to me like you want to be better at something just because you picked a certain job, and not have to actually put any work into meriting / gearing said job. That's cool and all, but an MMO that doesn't allow improvement of ones character is a dead MMO in a very short time frame. I mean, I guess if this was street fighter or mortal kombat, that would be cool, but it's not. I can go play a game with a clear beginning and end (not and MMORPG) if I don't want to build my character over time.


Yes I'm talking about improving your job right from the beginning. And there are very little option to, besides grinding gear. You can't develope your own play style by focusing on it because everything is restricted in game code and there are only the most optimal result. If you see someone sucked at one job, it's mostly because of his player skill as an indiviual player, not as a character. If someone sucked at playing PLD, it's mostly because he doesn't read forums, didn't swap gear correctly, and have slower reaction/laggy internet, fat chances are that his other jobs are gonna suck too. Gear difference isn't strength/weakness, since you can literally cap gear and obtain everything. Playing skill difference isn't strength/weakness, since it's, err, player skill as indiviual, and you can be good at all your jobs or suck at all your jobs. Only making choices through race/mission reward/merit are strength/weakness. It addes spice to the game, not JUST about grind gear. You like to grind gear? Sure! But I'm talking about it needs MORE than that, it needs to allow players to make choices, and what's wrong with wanting more?





Go back and read all your posts, and see how many little thumbs up you got.
EDIT: If people could switch races like they switch jobs, very very very few people would play melee jobs on taru. For instance. My taru started as WHM. He now has E.body, Black belt etc. I would love to change him to a hume. I can't. I suspect that some people picked tarus cuz they like them, many picked them because they wanted to make a mage char. None picked them because they like having low HP and Melee stats.



Go do a survey, unless you can prove that 100% of playerbase, all dislike race/storyline reward/merit system, your statement of "No one likes them they just accepts it" won't be true. I mean 100%, not 99%, or 99.999999%, you need to prove that not a single person out of all the FFXI players likes merit/race difference. Saying "No one" is pretty arrogant that you think you can represent everyone's opinion. Plus, by saying "No one" means if you want to prove you're right you need to ask everyone's opinion to prove you're right, but other ppl only need to find one person to disagree with you to prove you're wrong. I don't think it's a very good term to use in an arguement as it will place you in a disadvantage.





EDIT: If people could switch races like they switch jobs, very very very few people would play melee jobs on taru. For instance. My taru started as WHM. He now has E.body, Black belt etc. I would love to change him to a hume. I can't. I suspect that some people picked tarus cuz they like them, many picked them because they wanted to make a mage char. None picked them because they like having low HP and Melee stats.


No, ppl probably won't pick a taru because they want to be a good DD class, but yes, many picked them because they want to make a "good" mage char. And I'm pretty sure many career taru BLMs love their char as a taru too. Why do you only see the weakness of one char but never see the strength? A taru is typical example of strength/weakness. Your DD is weaker, but your mage is stronger. Does that makes your taru gimp? No, because your taru is a better BLM than an Elvaan BLM in same gear.

Seriously it seems that you just won't, and unwilling to accept the concept of strength/weakness. So you want taru/elvaan/mithra all the same? A taru BLM nuke same amount of dmg as Elvaan BLM in same gear? You don't get to make choices while developing your character? I don't see how that makes the game more fun.




Using it at 1/5 would be worse than existing WS that people get as low as 60 in some cases. That will never happen, but keep repeating "1/5 is fine". Some people swear that affirmations work.

ERRRRRARGHHHHH......that's all I want to say atm. Can you please read my post and what I tried to convey ;(
You already mentioned you got bored by reading in previous post, so I guess ;((((((

So I'm going to make it bold one last time, if you still won't get it, then I have nothing to say, not my problem that you don't want to read.

1. I never "suggest" player to do 1/5 as they are now.

2. I suggest SE to make 1/5 STRONGER THAN EXISTING WS AND TOTALLY USEABLE SO PPL CAN GET MORE THAN 3.

I feel I'm just talking to the wall, all the points I made about strength/weakness and making choices you don't seem to get it, and I got the feeling that you're not bothering to read at all, just insist that you're right and this game design(merit/race) is wrong because your taru DD isn't the best. I'm out of this pointless silly arguement unless you can come up with something new.

[FrankReynolds]

I NEVER said I don't like gearing aspect, stop putting words in my mouth. I only said it needs more than gearing aspect. You can , how'd you stand out if other ppl can get every other same gear too?

oh.


A character's uniqueness based on gear grinding, inventory filling and "play style"(which never exist in this game) is pretty lame.

And no. You can't "get every gear in this game literally".


What makes you think it's totally ok for a character with 10 job leveled, and spend 1/10 of time to gear/play PLD should be as good as a career PLD that plays PLD 95% of time, invest 95% of time to work on PLD? If someone's a career PLD, his PLD should be different than average PLDs, period.

If the guy with ten jobs spends more time on paladin than the guy with just paladin, then he should be better. You shouldn't get to be better at a job just because you didn't level another. The quality of your job should be based on the work you put in to it, not the work you didn't put into another job. My WHM mule shouldn't be better than my mains whm just because i leveled nin, monk, thf, dnc, war, red, blm, sum on my main. He's a mule. I put mad work into my main.


<cutting stuff out cuz this is getting ridiculously long> as best as the one who focus?(even though it's very hard in practice)

Again, no one has all the gear. Go read the voidwatch threads if you think gear is raining from the sky. Get over it.


your character needs an identity.

No. You need an identity, and your willing to sacrifice other peoples enjoyment to get one because its easier than getting one by working on your gear / skills.


And there are very little option to, besides grinding gear. You can't develope your own play style by focusing on it because everything is restricted in game code and there are only the most optimal result. If you see someone sucked at one job, it's mostly because of his player skill as an indiviual player, not as a character. If someone sucked at playing PLD, it's mostly because he doesn't read forums, didn't swap gear correctly, and have slower reaction/laggy internet, fat chances are that his other jobs are gonna suck too. Gear difference isn't strength/weakness, since you can literally cap gear and obtain everything. Playing skill difference isn't strength/weakness, since it's, err, player skill as indiviual, and you can be good at all your jobs or suck at all your jobs. Only making choices through race/mission reward/merit are strength/weakness. It addes spice to the game, not JUST about grind gear. You like to grind gear? Sure! But I'm talking about it needs MORE than that, it needs to allow players to make choices, and what's wrong with wanting more?

So what I'm getting from this is that you don't think people who practice, put in work and are skilled at the game should have stronger characters than people who dont have skill or put in work? You think that should be decided by what race / merit they choose?



Go do a survey, blah blah blah disadvantage.

I don't need to do a survey. There are thousands of reasons to pick taru as a character. Having low hp and weak melee stats is not one of them.


No, ppl probably won't pick a taru because they want to be a good DD class, but yes, many picked them because they want to make a "good" mage char. And I'm pretty sure many career taru BLMs love their char as a taru too. Why do you only see the weakness of one char but never see the strength? A taru is typical example of strength/weakness. Your DD is weaker, but your mage is stronger. Does that makes your taru gimp? No, because your taru is a better BLM than an Elvaan BLM in same gear.

Now your agreeing with me about the reasons behind picking a taru, but still insisting that people like being weaker at melee. They don't like the weak melee stats. They just like good mage stats more. Only insane people like being bad at something.


You already mentioned you got bored by reading in previous post, so I guess ;((((((
they are way too long.


So I'm going to make it bold one last time, if you still won't get it, then I have nothing to say, not my problem that you don't want to read.

1. I never "suggest" player to do 1/5 as they are now.

2. I suggest SE to make 1/5 STRONGER THAN EXISTING WS AND TOTALLY USEABLE SO PPL CAN GET MORE THAN 3.



So your suggestion is to make them just as good, but only require 1 merit instead of 5........


I feel I'm just talking to the wall, all the points I made about strength/weakness and making choices you don't seem to get it, and I got the feeling that you're not bothering to read at all, just insist that you're right and this game design(merit/race) is wrong because your taru DD isn't the best. I'm out of this pointless silly arguement unless you can come up with something new.

There is already enough difference between players just based on gear and skill to create individuality. I think your thinking everything is the same now because you see a lot of people in af3 in jeuno. Trust me. They all have different WS / PDT / MDT / EVA / MA / ACC / etc sets, macros, the list goes on. None of them have perfect gear. All of them play differently no matter how hard they try to be the same, and this will never change. If you are really that much in need of recognition for your individuality, try getting a face tattoo, or a really big piercing.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Seriously? Are we still going on about the race argument in this day and age? Did I timewarp back to 2005?

So I heard hume finally overtook the master race.

[Afania]

If the guy with ten jobs spends more time on paladin than the guy with just paladin, then he should be better. You shouldn't get to be better at a job just because you didn't level another. The quality of your job should be based on the work you put in to it, not the work you didn't put into another job. My WHM mule shouldn't be better than my mains whm just because i leveled nin, monk, thf, dnc, war, red, blm, sum on my main. He's a mule. I put mad work into my main.
.

Yes, I agree that ppl with 10 job lv and spend more time on PLD should be better than ppl with only one PLD and didn't spend as much time. I said it very clear that ppl who spent the most effort on a job
should be the best, right from the first post. And that's exactly how this game works atm, which I'm happy with and I don't think it needs a change at all. Someone can have 10 jobs lv, not PLD main, and have Aegis/Almace/Ochain/AF3+2. He doesn't have enmity+ merit, but his PLD is still better than a perle PLD main who only has enmity +5 merit. Why are you even worrying about ppl without enmity+ merit but has relic/empy can't beat a perle PLD with nothing but merit?

This is what's it like in this game right now and should just stay the same.

I'm not asking SE to remove the gear/skill difference entirely. There are already gear/skill difference in this game. But I see no reason to remove the merit/race difference, since those difference are very small compare with gear/skill difference. Only ppl who thinks this game is all about who is better and who is the best thinks that's important. If you really think so, you may as well go play a fighting game since every character stats are the same as long as you pick the same character.

This is a RPG, not a competitive game like fighting game, RPG is about personality, about creating background story, emotion, link to your character. And strength/weakness is part of personality. Making decision is part of it, to define the final look of character. Grinding gear/practicing skill has zero decision making element. I'm not asking SE to remove those element entirely, but there should be decision making element about developing your charater.


And I believe that's what SE wanted to, to give room to players to make decision, that's why they keep race/merit system or else they'd delete race/merit/storyline reward already.



No. You need an identity, and your willing to sacrifice other peoples enjoyment to get one because its easier than getting one by working on your gear / skills.
.

Me? Sacrifice other ppl's enjoyment? I'm not even the one who design the game, why is it my fault that this game has race/merit differernce >.> what you replied here isn't even rational. If you're not happy with the game because your character is X stat lower on one of the job due to race/merit, go play other games that has no race/merit system >.>



Now your agreeing with me about the reasons behind picking a taru, but still insisting that people like being weaker at melee. They don't like the weak melee stats. They just like good mage stats more. Only insane people like being bad at something.


I never insist that people like being weaker at melee.........

They just like good mage stats more, yes. Strength and weakness, a taru may hate his low STR, but may love his high INT and MP when playing mage classes.

If you can change race when you change job, or delete the race difference between each character, then they no longer have their mage advantage as a taru. You keep insisting on "weak melee" part as if every taru hates it, why not just let taru BLM main who enjoy playing BLM enjoy their superior stat.......



There is already enough difference between players just based on gear and skill to create individuality. I think your thinking everything is the same now because you see a lot of people in af3 in jeuno. Trust me. They all have different WS / PDT / MDT / EVA / MA / ACC / etc sets, macros, the list goes on. None of them have perfect gear. All of them play differently no matter how hard they try to be the same, and this will never change. If you are really that much in need of recognition for your individuality, try getting a face tattoo, or a really big piercing.

Yes, I agree that everyone has different WS/PDT/MDT etc sets, but the point is, there are "the best" WS/PDT/MDT/EVA set at certain situations because what's optimal is done by math. There are very little decision to be make when picking your gear sets, if your set is different from the best set, that only means your set isn't done, doesn't mean you make a decision to do so. Sometimes when you do get to make decision on gear sets, it's usually sidegrade only. 95% of gear set is if you don't use this set in that situation, you're doing it wrong.

And your definiation of individuality is about getting a face tattoo or big piercing? That's pretty shallow. But it seems you don't understand the concept at all, so w/e. I suggest you can play street fighter since every character you picked has same stat and it's pure skill based when you compete. No offense, SF is really a good game, just that when I control the character in a fighting game that character has nothing to do with me, but only a tool that I used to compete with other ppl since I never make any decision about how that character should develope.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I like my high int on melee jobs, less damage from nukes!

No seriously the difference between a pimped out Taru and Elvaan is something like 3% overall damage potential. That is miniscule. The HP / MP factor is a bigger argument if both are being used (or abused) productively.

[FrankReynolds]

Yes, I agree that ppl with 10 job lv and spend more time on PLD should be better than ppl with only one PLD and didn't spend as much time. I said it very clear that ppl who spent the most effort on a job
should be the best, right from the first post

Then why not let the guy get his weapon skills?



I'm not asking SE to remove those element entirely, but there should be decision making element about developing your charater.

Decision making should be about choosing whether or not to put in the effort. If all characters are the same because they have run out of things to put the effort into, SE should be adding more stuff for them to do to enhance / customize (which they are planning to do).


And I believe that's what SE wanted to, to give room to players to make decision, that's why they keep race/merit system or else they'd delete race/merit/storyline reward already.

They did to some extent. There are so many different gear swaps / improvements that can be made before you reach the point that changing race is the only thing you can do to improve performance, its ridiculous.


Me? Sacrifice other ppl's enjoyment? I'm not even the one who design the game, why is it my fault that this game has race/merit differernce >.> what you replied here isn't even rational. If you're not happy with the game because your character is X stat lower on one of the job due to race/merit, go play other games that has no race/merit system >.>

Actually I think I'll just state my opinion in the official forum, where they read and take into account players suggestions for changes and then continue playing this game(see bully threads, or the new limit break quest thread encase you were unaware of this).





I never insist that people like being weaker at melee.........

They just like good mage stats more, yes. Strength and weakness, a taru may hate his low STR, but may love his high INT and MP when playing mage classes.

If you can change race when you change job, or delete the race difference between each character, then they no longer have their mage advantage as a taru. You keep insisting on "weak melee" part as if every taru hates it, why not just let taru BLM main who enjoy playing BLM enjoy their superior stat.......

Actually I said:
None picked them (taru) because they like having low HP and Melee stats.

and you said:
your statement of "No one likes them they just accepts it" won't be true.

Insinuating that people do actually like having crappy melee stats.


Yes, I agree that everyone has different WS/PDT/MDT etc sets, but the point is, there are "the best" WS/PDT/MDT/EVA set at certain situations because what's optimal is done by math. There are very little decision to be make when picking your gear sets, if your set is different from the best set, that only means your set isn't done, doesn't mean you make a decision to do so. Sometimes when you do get to make decision on gear sets, it's usually sidegrade only. 95% of gear set is if you don't use this set in that situation, you're doing it wrong.

The same thing will happen with these WS. Limiting them just makes the problem worse. People are going to do the same thing they do with gear. They will math out which WS are the best, and get those 3. If you remove the cap, people at least have the option to merit more of them. It would be nice to have a bad ass Staff WS for my mage jobs, but there is no way I'm picking that and gimping my other jobs. No individuality for me. =/


And your definiation of individuality is about getting a face tattoo or big piercing?
That was clearly sarcasm. Please don't go tattoo your face.


That's pretty shallow. But it seems you don't understand the concept at all, so w/e. I suggest you can play street fighter ......

Nope, I'm gonna keep playing this, because there is a massive pool of gear that I still want (and I'll never have it all) to improve my character, and I will continue to gear based on what is best for me and the time I have available, not best overall. The player who has everything does not exist. Every player in this game is constantly sacrificing one piece of gear or another so that they can go after the one that makes the most sense for them. I don't need artificial limits in place to be an individual.

[Siiri]

Nope, GK seems to have an cratio bonus similar to Y/G/K.
The blatant SAM favoritism has really gotten over the top.

[Byrth]

I think it's technically more correct to call it an attack bonus similar to YGK, but yeah. SE seems content to keep DRK's DD power relatively lower on the grounds that they can cast Stun.

You guys want to hear a funny joke? Okay.

What's 5 fTP and 60% VIT mod? - DRK's best Scythe/GS WS, Torcleaver.
What's 5 fTP and 100% VIT mod? - DRK's best WS, Upheaval.

Harharharharharharharharharharharharharharhar etc.

[SpankWustler]

The more I learn about these new weaponskills, the less and less it bothers me that I can only merit 3 of them.

At this point, I suspect only two or three will be found to not have massive attack penalties, <1 fTP values on additional hits, or some other penalty no one has even fathomed yet.

What are the chances that Ruinator has a considerable accuracy penalty? It would go along with the theme established by the attack penalties thus far, but it seems like an accuracy penalty of any amount would be easy to notice.

[Karbuncle]

Indeed, I've already determined i'll probably merit Dagger, Staff, and ... IDK..

Dagger? = I love THF

Staff? = Cause i can

Last one I'm up in the air, I literally have 1 job that can use each and every WS... Any suggestions? my favorite of the jobs left over would likely be BST, PLD, WAR, MNK, and PUP

[Arcon]

Last one I'm up in the air, I literally have 1 job that can use each and every WS... Any suggestions? my favorite of the jobs left over would likely be BST, PLD, WAR, MNK, and PUP

Requiescat, because it has an awesome name.


What's 5 fTP and 60% VIT mod? - DRK's best Scythe/GS WS, Torcleaver.
What's 5 fTP and 100% VIT mod? - DRK's best WS, Upheaval.

Harharharharharharharharharharharharharharhar etc.

I laughed. Hard. Then I realized Upheaval was VIT modded. Then I cried.

[Kaizersan]

Gun is 4.0-4.5 fTP 100% AGI stacked against 5.5 fTP 60% AGI. It's a solid competitor/alternative to Wildfire, but I wouldn't say it crushes it. Armageddon gets ODD too.

Being a COR that has a 85 Armageddon Last Stand does come in handy for when you are facing mobs that have heavy magic resistance or fire resistance but from testing it on the test server I was able to pull close to Wildfire numbers but to do so you can't sub RDM so it slightly gimps your Wildfire damage.

[Feliciaa]

Wildfire also generates less enmity but like you guys have said, the new WS would be great for things with high magic resist, fire resist, or low physical DEF.

[Theytak]

The blatant SAM favoritism has really gotten over the top.

lol, the blatant sam favoritism has been over the top ever since the 2h update.


The more I learn about these new weaponskills, the less and less it bothers me that I can only merit 3 of them.

At this point, I suspect only two or three will be found to not have massive attack penalties, <1 fTP values on additional hits, or some other penalty no one has even fathomed yet.

What are the chances that Ruinator has a considerable accuracy penalty? It would go along with the theme established by the attack penalties thus far, but it seems like an accuracy penalty of any amount would be easy to notice.

oh god, don't say something like that. Ruinator is one of the few remaining gems of these WS for me, given that upheaval has a%^@#%^@ing VIT mod and people can't decide whether Shijin Spiral is on par with Asuran, better than pummel, or just general suck. If my AWESOMEGALKAFLIPWS has @%@#%@^ing acc penalty, I'm gonna give up.

[hiko]

lol, the blatant sam favoritism has been over the top ever since the 2h update.



sam favoritism went away whith lvl cap increase and abyssea (sekanoki lowered so everyjob can get it as sub, lack of crit ws, not lot proc)

now it come back even stronger with shoha and apex arrow .

[Dragoy]

I think it's technically more correct to call it an attack bonus similar to YGK
They actually mentioned that they ignore defence, which I imagine might have a similar effect to an attack bonus? I could be wrong, and it could have been a mistake in translation or/from the developers but eh, felt like mentioning it. ^^;

[Byrth]

Ignoring defense and adding attack end up being functionally the same when you take the ratio. Saying that it adds or subtracts Ratio implies that it's happening after "Ratio" is calculated, which means after it is capped. It happens before it's capped, so it is modifying Attack or Defense.

[Theytak]

sam favoritism went away whith lvl cap increase and abyssea (sekanoki lowered so everyjob can get it as sub, lack of crit ws, not lot proc)

now it come back even stronger with shoha and apex arrow .

It's not that it stopped. They didn't weaken sam in any way, they only made it stronger with konzen-ittai while we were off gallivanting in abyssea. They basically just slapped a temporary bandaid on how broken sam was with atma, but now that we're done with abyssea, the fact that sam is just as OP, if not more so, only proves that it never really stopped.

[Chriscoffey]

It's not that it stopped. They didn't weaken sam in any way, they only made it stronger with konzen-ittai while we were off gallivanting in abyssea. They basically just slapped a temporary bandaid on how broken sam was with atma, but now that we're done with abyssea, the fact that sam is just as OP, if not more so, only proves that it never really stopped.
I just find it ironic dark knights beg/plead for being boosted on weapon skills or better magic considering how screwed up SE has made them. There are no replies to anything and they keep on making the job a farce. Now on the flipside they go and make sam even more broken and OP without them even asking (like they need more buffs). They should just delete red mage and dark knight so they have more hard drive space on their database with how this keeps going.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Of course, can't have a filthy gaijin job beating Sam outside now can we?

[Chriscoffey]

Of course, can't have a filthy gaijin job beating Sam outside now can we?

SHORT DERAIL:
I bet you are real happy about red mage lol. I was red mage for years before venturing into the depths of melee. What I find hillarious is the simple fact they are the "best enfeeblers of the realm" yet they give other jobs those same enfeebles or turn around and make anything red mage could be useful on in party 100% resistant.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I love the job too much, no matter how useless it is :/

[Afania]

Then why not let the guy get his weapon skills?



So the problem is that 1/5 being too weak and should be fixed, not merit/race system.


Decision making should be about choosing whether or not to put in the effort. If all characters are the same because they have run out of things to put the effort into, SE should be adding more stuff for them to do to enhance / customize (which they are planning to do).


I don't really agree since it's a RPG and not a competitive game like a fighting game. A RPG shouldn't just let players define their character with only gears, but also that character's unique trait. Having an aegis on your PLD isn't your char's unique trait. What are your character's unique trait? My character is stronger(high STR) but not as smart as your character(low INT), your character is faster(high AGI) but not as durable(low HP) as his character. My character has talent in sword and learn it fast(sword 8/8), but I'm really bad at using a bow(bow 0/8) and so on. Those are the unique trait. That's what merit system/races are for. Deleting this entire system will erase the room for players to define their character with traits.

I can go dress up like MJ or Lady Gaga but I'm not going to become MJ or Lady Gaga since I don't have their unique trait. Just like face tatoo or big piercing or an Aegis can never define a person. What you're good at, have talent in, and what you're better/worse than other ppl in certain aspect is that character's unique trait.

Other RPGs allows players to define your character with more than just gears, idk why FFXI shouldn't just because you can job change. Unless 5% of performance is omgwtf the end of world. And it's not, you're not gonna lose 100 dollar if your NIN was 1% weaker than another NIN due to combat skill merits.

Tbh atm those differences between character are only like 3~5% of this game max, 95% of time you still compete with gear/skill/knowledge and so on, and you can still make up the character innate difference with effort. There are no point to make that 5% into 0% at all, in fact that's even more meaningful, to make up your character's innate weakness with effort is way more interesting than no weakness right from the beginning. Just leave that merit system alone and enjoy the variety between each char ;/






Actually I said:

and you said:

Insinuating that people do actually like having crappy melee stats.


Oh I thought you mean no one likes merit system/race. My bad. But yes, no one likes weak melee stats on melee job, doesn't mean everyone would want race/merit system to be erased.






The same thing will happen with these WS. Limiting them just makes the problem worse. People are going to do the same thing they do with gear. They will math out which WS are the best, and get those 3. If you remove the cap, people at least have the option to merit more of them. It would be nice to have a bad ass Staff WS for my mage jobs, but there is no way I'm picking that and gimping my other jobs. No individuality for me. =/



No the problem is really just 1/5 being too weak, not the cap on merit system. If there are no cap on merit system, how do you define your char with your traits? You will just max everything and lost uniqueness as a character. The cap on the merit system is there for the role-playing purpose, idk what's the super big deal over it, that you must remove it. Unless you value competition more than role-playing, but that's really not SE's vision of this game unless they change it.

[Economizer]

I wish I could say I love the comments about people not changing things on a forum that is supposed to be for player feedback, but I could never love the inane.


The cap on the merit system is there for the role-playing purpose, idk what's the super big deal over it, that you must remove it.

For a role play element, they certainly affect damage numbers in a large way. How about instead of hurting everyone else's ability to play what they want without having to spend eight hours remeriting a category or having to get a new character if they want to play a different job like idiots do in crappy MMOs not worth playing, we have no cap on the weapon skill merits.

Instead we have a cap on a specifically titled "Role Play Merits" section. There will be a cap of ten merits in the category, and it will have the following items in it:


Red Tint
Turns character model slightly more red.
Green Tint
Turns character model slightly more green.
Blue Tint
Turns character model slightly more blue.
Tarutaru-izer
Talk more-ithy like a Tarutaru.
Mithra-izer
Talk morrre like a Mithra.
Knight-izer
Talk moreth like a Knight.
Pirate-izer
Talk more like a Pirate, mate.
Elite Mentor Icon
Advanced Mentor Icon. Turns off after a set amount of time unless you have full merits.
Victory Music
Victory Fanfare is longer with each merit.


This way, nobody will be denied from a party over weapon skill merits ever, but you will still be able to show how much you care about role playing.

[FrankReynolds]

Edited for brevity

I don't wanna keep this long post stuff going, so I'll sum it up. I think advocating artificial weakness in place of increased power through play is a poor approach. Making the weapon skills more powerful at 1/5 would be the same as allowing people to merit them all 5/5, except that it would require less work to get them.



For a role play element, they certainly affect damage numbers in a large way. How about instead of hurting everyone else's ability to play what they want without having to spend eight hours remeriting a category or having to get a new character if they want to play a different job like idiots do in crappy MMOs not worth playing, we have no cap on the weapon skill merits.

Instead we have a cap on a specifically titled "Role Play Merits" section. There will be a cap of ten merits in the category, and it will have the following items in it:

...........

This way, nobody will be denied from a party over weapon skill merits ever, but you will still be able to show how much you care about role playing.

Now this is a good idea for giving characters personality. Things that don't make the game frustrating to play. :)

[Camate]

Howdy all!

I wanted to share some information on adjustments that will be made to some of the new weapon skills.


• Great Sword Weapon Skill “Resolution”
We’re currently making adjustments so this weapon skill deals more damage to higher level enemies. We will be slightly weakening the effects of the TP damage modifier, but making it so the modifier won’t only be for the first hit as we’ll be changing it so that it’s for all 5 hits.
　
• Scythe Weapon Skill “Entropy”
We will be making adjustments so that the amount of MP recovered will be within a range.
There will be cases where the MP recovered will be higher or possibly lower than now, but we are planning to adjust this so that the average will not change by much.

• Katana Weapon Skill “Blade: Shun”
We will be making adjustments to this weapon skill in the same way as those listed for “Resolution.”

Also, as a side note, we don’t have any plans of adding these new weapon skills to the arsenal of enemy weakness exploits, so don’t not worry about picking which ones you would like to upgrade based on that.

[FrankReynolds]

Howdy all!

I wanted to share some information on adjustments that will be made to some of the new weapon skills.


• Great Sword Weapon Skill “Resolution”
We’re currently making adjustments so this weapon skill deals more damage to higher level enemies. We will be slightly weakening the effects of the TP damage modifier, but making it so the modifier won’t only be for the first hit as we’ll be changing it so that it’s for all 5 hits.
　
• Scythe Weapon Skill “Entropy”
We will be making adjustments so that the amount of MP recovered will be within a range.
There will be cases where the MP recovered will be higher or possibly lower than now, but we are planning to adjust this so that the average will not change by much.

• Katana Weapon Skill “Blade: Shun”
We will be making adjustments to this weapon skill in the same way as those listed for “Resolution.”

Also, as a side note, we don’t have any plans of adding these new weapon skills to the arsenal of enemy weakness exploits, so don’t not worry about picking which ones you would like to upgrade based on that.

Did i just hear all the dark knights /sigh at once and then die?

[Alhanelem]

Probably. the MP recovery is nice, but they don't really give a rats behind how much it gives back. All they want is more damage. DAMAGE DAMAGE DAMAGE. IM A DARK KNIGHT I KILL THINGS RAAAWR

[Zeroe]

Oh Boy! Now I can suck even harder at dark knight! Ty SE... Do you even read the forums???

[Byrth]

They've got to be reducing the attack nerf of Resolution and Blade: Shun. If they make Resolution 5 hits and .75 base fTP without an attack penalty, it will still be better than it is now.

[scaevola]

• Scythe Weapon Skill “Entropy”
We will be making adjustments so that the amount of MP recovered will be within a range.
There will be cases where the MP recovered will be higher or possibly lower than now, but we are planning to adjust this so that the average will not change by much.


Funniest thing I've read all day. Thanks!

[FrankReynolds]

Seriously..... I don't even play Dark, and that made me want to throw my monitor.

[Monchat]

poor dark knights. balance!

[Soidisant]

Why on earth do SE hate DRK so much? It's like they don't even listen to us. Sorry, this will be a ranty post but getting seriously fed up with the DRK situation now.

We do not care about the MP recovery on Entropy. It's fine as it is or even a little lower than it is now. But we absolutely need it to be stronger damage wise. Not MP recovery wise but damage wise. At the minute you have given us absolutely zero worthwhile Scythe weaponskills for damage. Why are we stuck using a 3.875 25% STR, 25% MND WS for damage whilst every other DD job gets a far superior WS for damage?

And Resolution change will depend on how much they lower the modifier of the first hit but should be better than it is now. But why oh why do you mention the modifier being the same for all hits like it's a good thing? Making the modifier apply to all the hits makes it worse than if it only counted for the first hit at 100% TP. Even with Belt/Gorget it's worse (assuming it's 0.75 mod) because you have to give up Neck + Waist in order to make it even with if the modifier was first hit only. It's only ever going to be beneficial if you are sat on TP.

It's like the dev team don't even understand how their own game works at times.

[Koroma]

Did i just hear all the dark knights /sigh at once and then die?

??? from the sounds of it this will make the GS ws stronger.

[SpankWustler]

• Scythe Weapon Skill “Entropy”
We will be making adjustments so that the amount of MP recovered will be within a range.
There will be cases where the MP recovered will be higher or possibly lower than now, but we are planning to adjust this so that the average will not change by much.

Man proposes, but God blocks the game.

That aside, any change to the horrifying attack penalties to Resolution and Blade:Shun will be an improvement. I somehow doubt whatever drawback the Development Bros can come up with can be on par with -40-ish% Attack at 100% TP.

It warms the cockles of my cockles that these weaponskills will not be part of any deranged proc system. Thanks for letting us know that!

[MarkovChain]

dH/dt=-infinity

[Byrth]

dH/dt=-infinity

iloled

I do think they're adjusting Blade: Shun and Resolution to be similar to Stardiver though.

[Fredjan]

Howdy all!

I wanted to share some information on adjustments that will be made to some of the new weapon skills.


• Great Sword Weapon Skill “Resolution”
We’re currently making adjustments so this weapon skill deals more damage to higher level enemies. We will be slightly weakening the effects of the TP damage modifier, but making it so the modifier won’t only be for the first hit as we’ll be changing it so that it’s for all 5 hits.
　
• Scythe Weapon Skill “Entropy”
We will be making adjustments so that the amount of MP recovered will be within a range.
There will be cases where the MP recovered will be higher or possibly lower than now, but we are planning to adjust this so that the average will not change by much.

• Katana Weapon Skill “Blade: Shun”
We will be making adjustments to this weapon skill in the same way as those listed for “Resolution.”

Also, as a side note, we don’t have any plans of adding these new weapon skills to the arsenal of enemy weakness exploits, so don’t not worry about picking which ones you would like to upgrade based on that.

GS/Katana WS changes look good.

@ Scythe:
Please consider giving DRK darkness-based versions of Holy and Holy II at 55 and 99, respectively. I'd then care about Entropy. I don't speak for all DRKs, but as a DRK with Caladbolg, and an Apocalypse in progress, I could care less about our elemental magic, none of it is worth casting outside of enemy staggers because they can take a while to cast, especially when it also happens to slows down our damage. Some of us are tired of spamming a level 60 weaponskill for damage when it comes to Scythe. Insurgency? Don't make me laugh. That is a "damage based on TP" weaponskill, whereas Guillotine is consistent regardless of TP and performs better in most cases. We don't have to have something that crits, just a Guillotine improvement in general.

Honestly, is this SE's way of telling us to use Great Sword for damage and Scythe for utility? It wouldn't surprise me that much given Apocalypse and Catastrophe. I personally was a Scythe-only Dark Knight for some time, because GS damage never impressed me until I owned a Caladbolg. Resolution impressed me until I heard about the attack penalty associated with it, and it seems that is getting resolved, meaning it's DRK's new Souleater WS. Torcleaver + Aftermath's hard to pass up otherwise for pure damage.

[FrankReynolds]

??? from the sounds of it this will make the GS ws stronger.

That was in regards to the Scythe WS.

[Chriscoffey]

Seriously..... I don't even play Dark, and that made me want to throw my monitor.
This has been going on for years now. This same sort of thing. They give dark knights updates but the LR update was the only one that even made some progress for them. I find it sad that they update LR that much and the job is still behind most other melee by an extreme measure. I can't believe that much of an haste/attack buff still doesn't put dark in the same ball park as other jacked up melee. That should tell you just how broken the jobs are at this point.

[Theytak]

Howdy all!

I wanted to share some information on adjustments that will be made to some of the new weapon skills.


• Great Sword Weapon Skill “Resolution”
We’re currently making adjustments so this weapon skill deals more damage to higher level enemies. We will be slightly weakening the effects of the TP damage modifier, but making it so the modifier won’t only be for the first hit as we’ll be changing it so that it’s for all 5 hits.

You need to be a lot more careful with your wording here, camate, because spreading the fTP mod across all hits can just as easily be an additional nerf in terms of damage potential. Saying "but" implies it won't be, but currently all hits of resolution have a 1.0 fTP, so if you weaken the initial mod and spread it across all the hits, then at least at 100% TP, which is the only practical TP% in 95% of the game, you should say "slightly weakening the effects of the TP damage modifier, and making it so the modifier ... [will be] for all hits" Unless you mean that you're only changing it when the mod is over 100% in which case your wording is correct and my comment is groundless.

Regardless it's still better than a 40% atk penalty, don't get me wrong, it's just that given SE's track record with incredible vague statements and horribly inaccurate assessments where a small number of words cause the issue, I wanted to point this out.


• Scythe Weapon Skill “Entropy”
We will be making adjustments so that the amount of MP recovered will be within a range.
There will be cases where the MP recovered will be higher or possibly lower than now, but we are planning to adjust this so that the average will not change by much.

...When you told the devs "The NA players are saying that Entropy deals the same damage as every other scythe ws, and they want something different, not the same damage, and they don't care at all about the MP restoration", did they just laugh at you?


• Katana Weapon Skill “Blade: Shun”
We will be making adjustments to this weapon skill in the same way as those listed for “Resolution.”

Also, as a side note, we don’t have any plans of adding these new weapon skills to the arsenal of enemy weakness exploits, so don’t not worry about picking which ones you would like to upgrade based on that.

That's awesome, but that still doesn't justify the 3 ws per character limit, especially if someone plays jobs where more than one WS are practical choices. For me, I'm Pup, Mnk, War, Pld. Shijin Spiral is worthwhile, Ruinator and Upheavel are both fairly strong and have their uses, Requiescat I'm not sure of, but Realmrazer is strong enough that I'll want it for pld and war (I <3 playing with my truestrike build on war, realmrazer is just as delicious), and additionally I'm working on leveling my ranger and corsair, so I'll want Last Stand especially, but also Apex Arrow, and the fact that the only way I can access all these ws is to make them all absolutely worthless to use is just ridiculous :/

Also, I'm just gonna throw this out there; if you want to make any of the ws a poor choice, nerf Tachi: Shoha. Sam doesn't need ANOTHER reason tacked on to the always growing list of why it's too strong. (seriously camate, tell the devs that samurai is just way to strong compared to the other jobs when you're not looking at equally geared relic/mythic/empyrean weapon holders who got insanely lucky with the horribad voidwatch drop system)

[Atomic_Skull]

Probably. the MP recovery is nice, but they don't really give a rats behind how much it gives back. All they want is more damage. DAMAGE DAMAGE DAMAGE. IM A DARK KNIGHT I KILL THINGS RAAAWR

Go get a great sword then. It's obvious that the dev team has decided that Great Sword=pure damage and Scythe = damage + additional effects and that they aren't going to change their minds on this.


Oh Boy! Now I can suck even harder at dark knight! Ty SE... Do you even read the forums???

They read the JP forums. They don't give a rats ass what we think, or haven't you been paying attention?


Why on earth do SE hate DRK so much? It's like they don't even listen to us.

It is not "like" they don't listen to you, it is that they don't listen to you. The thread on BST pets where they ignored the NAs and went with the JP's choices should have hammered that point home already.

[Kincard]

I really don't get the Entropy adjustment. I guess that makes the ability somewhat consistent with its name, but I'm a bit baffled as to why they would bother putting forth the effort to make a convoluted adjustment to it that would end up just making it do the same damn thing over time, and even bothering to make an announcement about it.

[Atomic_Skull]

This has been going on for years now. This same sort of thing. They give dark knights updates but the LR update was the only one that even made some progress for them. I find it sad that they update LR that much and the job is still behind most other melee by an extreme measure. I can't believe that much of an haste/attack buff still doesn't put dark in the same ball park as other jacked up melee. That should tell you just how broken the jobs are at this point.

LR does put you in the same ballpark if you get haste and attack buffs (you attack at hundred fists speed with a Great Sword) but DRK will always get put in the "short bus" party with THF and BLU because nobody cares.

[FrankReynolds]

They read the JP forums. They don't give a rats ass what we think, or haven't you been paying attention?



It is not "like" they don't listen to you, it is that they don't listen to you. The thread on beast pets where they ignored the NAs and went with the JP's choices should have hammered that point home already.

Someone should really make a dummy account, and just go copy paste every NA thread into Google translate, and then re-post it in the JP forum. It would be interesting to see if they got responses.

[Atomic_Skull]

Someone should really make a dummy account, and just go copy paste every NA thread into Google translate, and then re-post it in the JP forum. It would be interesting to see if they got responses.

Wouldn't make any difference, they only care what the JPs want because JPs make up the largest number of FFXI's subscribers. So they will always cater to what they want. Sucks for us but it does make business sense.

[Luvbunny]

G
They read the JP forums. They don't give a rats ass what we think, or haven't you been paying attention?
It is not "like" they don't listen to you, it is that they don't listen to you. The thread on beast pets where they ignored the NAs and went with the JP's choices should have hammered that point home already.

Voicing our opinion with our wallet is the only way they will LISTEN to the NA market needs and opinions. Otherwise they will keep ignoring us - with the gaming market becoming more and more global and competition is getting fierce - this is something that they cannot sit idle on their laurels. They must take actions to win their paying clients - and stop acting like they know everything and we just have to take it as it is.

[Atomic_Skull]

Also, I'm just gonna throw this out there; if you want to make any of the ws a poor choice, nerf Tachi: Shoha. Sam doesn't need ANOTHER reason tacked on to the always growing list of why it's too strong. (seriously camate, tell the devs that samurai is just way to strong compared to the other jobs when you're not looking at equally geared relic/mythic/empyrean weapon holders who got insanely lucky with the horribad voidwatch drop system)

This one isn't going to change because it's a cultural thing.


Voicing our opinion with our wallet is the only way they will LISTEN to the NA market needs and opinions. Otherwise they will keep ignoring us - with the gaming market becoming more and more global and competition is getting fierce - this is something that they cannot sit idle on their laurels. They must take actions to win their paying clients - and stop acting like they know everything and we just have to take it as it is.

Problem is that a lot of what we want is mutually exclusive to what the JPs want. So they have to choose one or the other. And because most of FFXI's subscribers are in japan they will go with what the JPs want.

Now if this game actually had a chance at becoming big internationally maybe it would make sense for them to pay more attention to us, but at this point in the game's life it doesn't.

[Unctgtg]

Did i just hear all the dark knights /sigh at once and then die?

Nope cause I'll still be using my Catastrophe WS.

[Siiri]

This one isn't going to change because it's a cultural thing.



Problem is that a lot of what we want is mutually exclusive to what the JPs want. So they have to choose one or the other. And because most of FFXI's subscribers are in japan they will go with what the JPs want.

Now if this game actually had a chance at becoming big internationally maybe it would make sense for them to pay more attention to us, but at this point in the game's life it doesn't.

Do the Japanese DRKs really want a weapon skill that returns magic over a high damage ws?

[FrankReynolds]

Do the Japanese DRKs really want a weapon skill that returns magic over a high damage ws?

I feel like it would be extremely racist to assume that the JP player base is that crazy. Unless they know something that we don't about SEs plans for Dark Knight magic.

[Hextitan]

We have no reason to believe the JPN player base is any happier about this Entropy update, or DRK in general. SE doesn't listen to anyone most of the time which is ironic considering they created this forum specifically for feedback.

[Selzak]

Probably. the MP recovery is nice, but they don't really give a rats behind how much it gives back. All they want is more damage. DAMAGE DAMAGE DAMAGE. IM A DARK KNIGHT I KILL THINGS RAAAWR
Or something to do with the MP that we get back. Blizzard III has a recast, you know!

[Theytak]

I can't believe that the devs think giving WS an attack penalty is a good idea in anyway...

[Chriscoffey]

I can't believe that the devs think giving WS an attack penalty is a good idea in anyway...

So far they didn't with Tachi:Awesome for Sam with GK. never fails lol

[Alhanelem]

That's awesome, but that still doesn't justify the 3 ws per character limitThere is no "3 WS per character" limit. You can get more if you don't maximize the mods (even at level 1, they still have some stat modifier- 32% including the base)

You can't be the best at everything. The WHOLE FARKING POINT of the merit system is speccing your character so that one person who plays MNK (example) is different from another person who plays MNK in more ways than gear.
People ask for specizlization options.
SE grants specialization options.
People subesequently complain they can't upgrade everything.
SE removes specialization options?
Profit?

FFXI's character customization is very limited compared to many MMOs. What you're asking for is basically the same as people in WoW asking to be able to max out all three Talent trees. They were created that way for a reason: to give you choices to make.

HOWEVER: I would not be against them making it less difficult to change no-longer-wanted merits- for instance, giving back half the merits spent (full refund for 1 point merits) and freely reallocating, or fully refunding merits and placing a cooldown on merit removals.

[Zephyrtaru]

Someone should really make a dummy account, and just go copy paste every NA thread into Google translate, and then re-post it in the JP forum. It would be interesting to see if they got responses.The JPs also complain about the Entropy announcement in this thread here: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/17510-dev1049-%E6%96%B0%E3%81%9F%E3%81%AA%E3%82%A6%E3%82%A7%E3%83%9D%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B9%E3%82%AD%E3%83%AB%E3%81%AE%E8%BF%BD%E5%8A%A0-%E3%81%AB%E3%81%A4%E3%81%84%E3%81%A6-%E3%83%86%E3%82%B9%E3%83%88%E3%82%B5%E3%83%BC%E3%83%90. They are more focused on Resolution ftp discussion, but also making comments about MP is never a problem about scythe, it's the lack of choice after a level 60s WS.

[Greatguardian]

Howdy all!

I wanted to share some information on adjustments that will be made to some of the new weapon skills.


• Great Sword Weapon Skill “Resolution”
We’re currently making adjustments so this weapon skill deals more damage to higher level enemies. We will be slightly weakening the effects of the TP damage modifier, but making it so the modifier won’t only be for the first hit as we’ll be changing it so that it’s for all 5 hits.
　
• Scythe Weapon Skill “Entropy”
We will be making adjustments so that the amount of MP recovered will be within a range.
There will be cases where the MP recovered will be higher or possibly lower than now, but we are planning to adjust this so that the average will not change by much.

• Katana Weapon Skill “Blade: Shun”
We will be making adjustments to this weapon skill in the same way as those listed for “Resolution.”

Also, as a side note, we don’t have any plans of adding these new weapon skills to the arsenal of enemy weakness exploits, so don’t not worry about picking which ones you would like to upgrade based on that.

I realize that the Devs already know this, but just so we're clear, you realize these look like nerfs, right?

Making a <1.0 fTP modifier stack on all 5 hits is weaker than having a <1.0 fTP modifier on the first hit and 1.0 on subsequent hits (And Resolution already appears to do this so it wouldn't be a change). Resolution and Blade: Shun also suffer from an Attack penalty, which does not appear to be adjusted if we're to read this translation verbatim.

Can you please double check with the developers to make sure they're not talking about lessening/removing the Attack penalty on Blade: Shun and Resolution (which is the value that varies with TP, rather than the TP damage modifier aka fTP)? The way this is translated does not appear to be doing anything but making the weaponskills weaker.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Howdy all!

I wanted to share some information on adjustments that will be made to some of the new weapon skills.


• Great Sword Weapon Skill “Resolution”
We’re currently making adjustments so this weapon skill deals more damage to higher level enemies. We will be slightly weakening the effects of the TP damage modifier, but making it so the modifier won’t only be for the first hit as we’ll be changing it so that it’s for all 5 hits.
　
• Scythe Weapon Skill “Entropy”
We will be making adjustments so that the amount of MP recovered will be within a range.
There will be cases where the MP recovered will be higher or possibly lower than now, but we are planning to adjust this so that the average will not change by much.

• Katana Weapon Skill “Blade: Shun”
We will be making adjustments to this weapon skill in the same way as those listed for “Resolution.”

Also, as a side note, we don’t have any plans of adding these new weapon skills to the arsenal of enemy weakness exploits, so don’t not worry about picking which ones you would like to upgrade based on that.


I'm almost afraid to ask for them to give Requiescat a second look but removing the attack penalty so it's actually useful on higher level enemies would be a start.

[Atoreis]

I realize that the Devs already know this, but just so we're clear, you realize these look like nerfs, right?

Making a <1.0 fTP modifier stack on all 5 hits is weaker than having a <1.0 fTP modifier on the first hit and 1.0 on subsequent hits (And Resolution already appears to do this so it wouldn't be a change). Resolution and Blade: Shun also suffer from an Attack penalty, which does not appear to be adjusted if we're to read this translation verbatim.

Can you please double check with the developers to make sure they're not talking about lessening/removing the Attack penalty on Blade: Shun and Resolution (which is the value that varies with TP, rather than the TP damage modifier aka fTP)? The way this is translated does not appear to be doing anything but making the weaponskills weaker.

For now it sounds like it can be anything. First part "We’re currently making adjustments so this weapon skill deals more damage to higher level enemies" can mean that they lowering or removing attack penalty. The second part can mean that they will lower fTP of all hits below 1.0 to make it a little weaker in exchange for removing attack penalty (in this case it would be a slightly buff still because 0.75 on all hits and 0.95 with gorget/belt and removing attack penalty is better than what we have now) OR the second part can be a result of first part and can mean that all hits will have fTP higher than 1.0 with higher TP ( Lets say 0.9/1.0/1.1 at 100/200/300TP and 1.1/1.2/1.3 with gorget belt but attack penalty will stay). I think we wont be able to tell before the update hit the server.

[CrAZYVIC]

For the GS weapon skill maybe they will remove the attack penalty and reducing the Tp multiplier. If this Happen im sure this WS will beat Torcleaver mathing Resolution with 0.75 tp multiplier and taking off the attack penatly. this little toy can average.

2454 - 3680. With cratio 2.2 capped and using a SOLID STR Build.
2971 - 4455 Double attacked WS.

So far without the attack penatly even if they reduce to 0.75 the tp multipliquer this WS is a monster.

Now DRK say Hi with Calabolg and 6 hit build Resolution the parse damage of a DRK will be increased in a dramatic way.
The no empyreal drks, with Jingang greatsword 5 hit build say Hi for the others DDS.

Lets forget the fail entropy and cross our fingers for they REMOVE THE ATTACK PENALTY From RESOLUTION.

[SpankWustler]

I realize that the Devs already know this, but just so we're clear, you realize these look like nerfs, right?

Making a <1.0 fTP modifier stack on all 5 hits is weaker than having a <1.0 fTP modifier on the first hit and 1.0 on subsequent hits (And Resolution already appears to do this so it wouldn't be a change). Resolution and Blade: Shun also suffer from an Attack penalty, which does not appear to be adjusted if we're to read this translation verbatim.

Can you please double check with the developers to make sure they're not talking about lessening/removing the Attack penalty on Blade: Shun and Resolution (which is the value that varies with TP, rather than the TP damage modifier aka fTP)? The way this is translated does not appear to be doing anything but making the weaponskills weaker.

I just assumed the phrase "We’re currently making adjustments so this weapon skill deals more damage to higher level enemies." to be the usual vague and barely comprehensible way of saying "We're reducing the smothering attack penalty, which in the case of Blade:Shun, is somewhat related to TP."

Given what some amongst the Development Bros seem to know about math, though, your extremely literal reading of "We think we're making this better but we're actually making it worse. Much worse." seems far from impossible.

I am now afraid.

[Quetzacoatl]

• Scythe Weapon Skill “Entropy”
We will be making adjustments so that the amount of MP recovered will be within a range.
There will be cases where the MP recovered will be higher or possibly lower than now, but we are planning to adjust this so that the average will not change by much.

http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/gallery/e4802d2ea22c731efa9c152e5d11f9c6.png

Sorry Camate, but I have to say this to the devs:

God-f#@ng dammit, Square-Enix, YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG

STOP DOING IT WRONG AND INCREASE THE WEAPON SKILL DAMAGE

We don't care about the MP recovery so much as we want to see an increase in WEAPON SKILL DAMAGE

How is Scythe function? HOW IS SCYTHE FUNCTION!?!?

So glad I got a Caladbolg. At least Apocalypse does more than enough to make up for the shortcomings normal Scythe Weapon Skills are presented with. /rage

[Dawnn]

• Scythe Weapon Skill “Entropy”
We will be making adjustments so that the amount of MP recovered will be within a range.
There will be cases where the MP recovered will be higher or possibly lower than now, but we are planning to adjust this so that the average will not change by much.


WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU SE?!

[Kaizersan]

Just remember Tanaka knows better then you do on how powerful your ws need to be keep at it and he will lower the damage more to increase the mp you get back.

[Theytak]

So far they didn't with Tachi:Awesome for Sam with GK. never fails lol

Which one? Tachi: Geksome, Tachi: Kaweshome, Tachi: Kaiwesome, Tachi: Fuwesome, or Tachi: Showesome? or Tachi: Situationallyrawesome? Or Tachi: Surprisinglypowerfulforalevel49wsjinpusome?


There is no "3 WS per character" limit. You can get more if you don't maximize the mods (even at level 1, they still have some stat modifier- 32% including the base)
Not a single one of the merit ws has absolutely any worth if used with only 1 merit. You may as well just use something like One Inch Punch over Victory Smite or Iron Tempest over Raging Rush. A few of them are useable at 4 merits, but most require 5 merits to even be competitive. At level 1, THEY ALL SUCK. It's 3 ws per character max, and trying to argue that it's not is just stupid, I'm sorry.


You can't be the best at everything. The WHOLE FARKING POINT of the merit system is speccing your character so that one person who plays MNK (example) is different from another person who plays MNK in more ways than gear.
People ask for specizlization options.
SE grants specialization options.
People subesequently complain they can't upgrade everything.
SE removes specialization options?
Profit?

FFXI's character customization is very limited compared to many MMOs. What you're asking for is basically the same as people in WoW asking to be able to max out all three Talent trees. They were created that way for a reason: to give you choices to make.

HOWEVER: I would not be against them making it less difficult to change no-longer-wanted merits- for instance, giving back half the merits spent (full refund for 1 point merits) and freely reallocating, or fully refunding merits and placing a cooldown on merit removals.

I would like to point out that I did not say "Give everyone the ability to merit all 14 ws to 5/5" though given the massive merit requirement for the ws, I don't personally feel that it's unreasonable. The thing is that these WS should never have used merits as their method of attainment in the first place. It was an absolutely horrendous idea and in implementation, is even worse than on paper.


The JPs also complain about the Entropy announcement in this thread here: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/17510-dev1049-%E6%96%B0%E3%81%9F%E3%81%AA%E3%82%A6%E3%82%A7%E3%83%9D%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B9%E3%82%AD%E3%83%AB%E3%81%AE%E8%BF%BD%E5%8A%A0-%E3%81%AB%E3%81%A4%E3%81%84%E3%81%A6-%E3%83%86%E3%82%B9%E3%83%88%E3%82%B5%E3%83%BC%E3%83%90. They are more focused on Resolution ftp discussion, but also making comments about MP is never a problem about scythe, it's the lack of choice after a level 60s WS.

Wait, the JP and NA communities AGREE on something? and SE STILL ignored it?

You guys may as well give up on entropy.

[Urteil]

Scythe Weapon Skill “Entropy”
We will be making adjustments so that the amount of MP recovered will be within a range.
There will be cases where the MP recovered will be higher or possibly lower than now, but we are planning to adjust this so that the average will not change by much.


Camate, I love you. I do. Please turn your eyes aside, you do no wrong.




The amount of mp recovered is already in a "range," because it actually gives MP back?

Your making the WS unreliable why? Its already serving little function as DRK hardly uses enough MP for the recovery aspect of the WS to matter.

If you aren't going to change it by much, why even bother? Just to make it more random. . .?
As far a Entropy is concerned you're wasting dev time to change nothing. . .? What?


*
If the DEV-team played DRK they'd be the worst DRK's on the planet, they'd come out /rdm and wear HQ staves and nuke things, and refuse to gear swap. They would not have scythe capped because the WS for it suck anyway, and why bother when you can Blizzard 3 things.

The DEV-team would sword and shield on DRK because all of the shields have DRK on them, and they'd melee in Hecatomb gear.



Let me do my best to explain to you exactly how Dark Knights are feeling, I'll say it and I've finally snapped, I'm not going to pad it, or make it nice because everyone is thinking it.

Based on your repeatedly terrible and stupid decisions as far as development goes for this job:


NOBODY CARES ABOUT MP RECOVERY ON A DARK KNIGHT WS, WE HAVE NOTHING TO USE MP ON.

???????????????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THERE IS HARDLY A REASON FOR DARK KNIGHTS TO USE MP IN PVE AS IT STANDS NOW.

DO YOU THINK WE ARE CASTING BLIZZARD 3/THUNDER 3 WITH THE HORRIBLE RECAST/DAMAGE/CASTING TIME?

GIVE US GOOD MAGICAL SPELLS, IF YOU ARE GOING TO PULL THIS KIND OF NONSENSE.









TLDR;

WTF IS THIS SH#$?!

[Urteil]

I really don't get the Entropy adjustment. I guess that makes the ability somewhat consistent with its name, but I'm a bit baffled as to why they would bother putting forth the effort to make a convoluted adjustment to it that would end up just making it do the same damn thing over time, and even bothering to make an announcement about it.


This is all SE is good at, and probably the motto behind development.

[Finuve]

SE...boost quietus

[hideka]

We have no reason to believe the JPN player base is any happier about this Entropy update, or DRK in general. SE doesn't listen to anyone most of the time which is ironic considering they created this forum specifically for feedback.

actualy they do listen to the JP alot more then they do us: Please See the Voting poll for new beast pets. americans voted like 80+ votes for a scorpion, and like 5 JP's voted for the hippo. we got the hippo.

[Aarahs]

actualy they do listen to the JP alot more then they do us: Please See the Voting poll for new beast pets. americans voted like 80+ votes for a scorpion, and like 5 JP's voted for the hippo. we got the hippo.

Are people still going on about that? SE counted the votes correctly and the hippo won. Get over it.

[FrankReynolds]

Are people still going on about that? SE counted the votes correctly and the hippo won. Get over it.


In other news: The government never lies.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Are people still going on about that? SE counted the votes correctly and the hippo won. Get over it.

Yup, yup...

Lets separate French, German and Japanese but clump every English speaker into the NA vote count..... real fair!

On a different subject the MP recovery would have suited the Sword WS over the Scythe one, that should have been pure damage.

[FrankReynolds]

Yup, yup...

Lets separate French, German and Japanese but clump every English speaker into the NA vote count..... real fair!

On a different subject the MP recovery would have suited the Sword WS over the Scythe one, that should have been pure damage.

That's assuming that they even counted them that way, and didn't just flat out ignore us. Best case scenario: all English speakers are the same lol.

[Tohihroyu]

Well the only way they will make Entropy stronger besides "lol Spirit Taker for Scythes" is if the Japanese player base says they want Entropy to hit harder. Just like everything else. Big example? the new bst jugs :|

[Selzak]

Yup, yup...

Lets separate French, German and Japanese but clump every English speaker into the NA vote count..... real fair!

On a different subject the MP recovery would have suited the Sword WS over the Scythe one, that should have been pure damage.
It's worth noting that SE never even claimed to have done this. It was just one of the (many) laughable excuses the apologists tried to make.

The only way this WS is going to mean anything is if DRK gets a major overhaul to its casting ability. Otherwise, it's just a continuation of how SE has always treated DRK.

[brayen]

It's worth noting that SE never even claimed to have done this. It was just one of the (many) laughable excuses the apologists tried to make.

The only way this WS is going to mean anything is if DRK gets a major overhaul to its casting ability. Otherwise, it's just a continuation of how SE has always treated DRK.

That would actually be really nice to see drk have stuff worth casting w/o losing so much dmg in the process. As the game works tho, they would need crazy celerity trait for spells on top of much more powerful stuff to actually use up mp on (and skilling up does not count! ;p )

[Kincard]

Wait, the JP and NA communities AGREE on something? and SE STILL ignored it?

You guys may as well give up on entropy.

Contrary to what a lot of people across a bunch of the English XI boards think, the JP and EN communities agree on things concerned with game mechanics pretty often, because there's plenty of hardcore players on the other side that also know how the game works.

Even with the BST pet thing, even though both communities ended up choosing different pets, both really wanted the same thing: Something to fill one of the blind spots in the versatility within BST pets.

[Seriha]

While not mentioned in Camate's info, seems like Requiescat also has its own ATK penalty and while the WS itself states that additional TP boosts its ATK, these values don't seem to exceed the penalty. Seeing PLDs, BLUs, or RDMs running around with the 1000+ ATK needed to cap out on higher end prey isn't going to be a common happening, especially if trying to balance ACC/ATK/MND on gear that rarely comes in such combinations. If this is some cheeky plan to try and get people to double Minuet with Chaos Roll, it's not gonna work since people would rather WS more frequently with Marches and other COR options. And as a one-handed WS, it just feels like a bit of a low blow to begin with.

[Amador]

Howdy all!

I wanted to share some information on adjustments that will be made to some of the new weapon skills.


• Great Sword Weapon Skill “Resolution”
We’re currently making adjustments so this weapon skill deals more damage to higher level enemies. We will be slightly weakening the effects of the TP damage modifier, but making it so the modifier won’t only be for the first hit as we’ll be changing it so that it’s for all 5 hits.
　
• Scythe Weapon Skill “Entropy”
We will be making adjustments so that the amount of MP recovered will be within a range.
There will be cases where the MP recovered will be higher or possibly lower than now, but we are planning to adjust this so that the average will not change by much.

• Katana Weapon Skill “Blade: Shun”
We will be making adjustments to this weapon skill in the same way as those listed for “Resolution.”

Also, as a side note, we don’t have any plans of adding these new weapon skills to the arsenal of enemy weakness exploits, so don’t not worry about picking which ones you would like to upgrade based on that.

There are multiple threads discussing the in balance and weakness of certain ws. I see you take time to side note that they won't be used as triggers.

Any side note on if these are the only 3 weapon skills receiving adjustments or if others will too?

[Bayohne]

After testing, we concluded that there is a need to lower the damage dealt by the club weapon skill Realmrazer. We'll be making adjustments so that Realmrazer is the strongest club weapon skill for jobs that cannot learn Hexa Strike.

We also concluded that there is no need to increase the damage dealt by the H2H weapon skill Shijin Spiral and the sword weapon skill Requiescat. (The adjustments for the katana and great sword weapon skills were made to fix the difficulty of dealing damage against stronger opponents.)

Shijin Spiral has an attack boost effect, so it can effectively deal damage to stronger opponents. Thus, we decided that there was no need for adjustment. Also, please keep in mind that its modifiers are DEX and not STR.

Since Requiescat has no element, it’s an effective weapon skill against monsters that are immune to physical attacks. Considering that players can use attack boosts and double attack effects to enhance damage (edited at 12:28pm PST), we decided that an adjustment was unnecessary.

We’ll make the above adjustments in the next version update and will look into implementing further adjustments following the version update as necessary.

[FrankReynolds]

After testing, we concluded that there is a need to lower the damage dealt by the club weapon skill Realmrazer. We'll be making adjustments so that Realmrazer is the strongest club weapon skill for jobs that cannot learn Hexa Strike.

We also concluded that there is no need to increase the damage dealt by the H2H weapon skill Shijin Spiral and the sword weapon skill Requiescat. (The adjustments for the katana and great sword weapon skills were made to fix the difficulty of dealing damage against stronger opponents.)

Shijin Spiral has an attack boost effect, so it can effectively deal damage to stronger opponents. Thus, we decided that there was no need for adjustment. Also, please keep in mind that its modifiers are DEX and not STR.

Since Requiescat has no element, it’s an effective weapon skill against monsters that are immune to physical attacks. Considering that it has an attack boost and double attack effects, we decided that an adjustment was unnecessary.

We’ll make the above adjustments in the next version update and will look into implementing further adjustments following the version update as necessary.

Blah! Make some changes to Scythe before the darks get all mid-evil on you guys. :P

[Byrth]

Requiescat's description would lead you to believe it has an attack bonus, but it is actually a ~20% penalty at 100TP. What do you mean by "double attack effects?"

[Prothscar]

Since Requiescat has no element, it’s an effective weapon skill against monsters that are immune to physical attacks. Considering that it has an attack boost and double attack effects, we decided that an adjustment was unnecessary.

On the contrary, according to my testing Requiescat receives an attack penalty at 100, 200, and 300 TP. Is this a bug? Or are you saying that the attack bonus is just a less potent attack penalty as TP increases?

As for double attack effect... uh? Every weaponskill under 8 hits gets to make use of double attack, unless you're implying that Requiescat receives additional chances at double attacking or has a native chance to double attack...

[brayen]

i assume it can double atk while still being categorized as "elemental dmg" is what they are saying

the atk penalty, is it possible to be explained due to its unique trait of being elemental? not even sure how to verify something like this but it sorta reminds me of formless strikes (in that it sucks even on some mobs that are phy res)

[FrankReynolds]

I feel like this thread is in desperate need of one of spankwustler's explanations as to the thought process of the devs.