Same-Sex Marriages

[Alkalinehoe]

I think in game weddings should allow two player characters of the same sex to marry. I would like to think SE has gotten a little more progressive as a company when they decided to include two lesbians in Final Fantasy XIII and it would certainly garner some attention to finally break these boundaries. [Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).] It's unfair. It's unjust. It's unconstitutional. There's nothing wrong if two Galkas or two Mithras want to share their love, but this is coming from a company that feels that a Male Goblin and a Female Hume [Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).] getting it on is more socially acceptable.

So I plead to you, SE. Please remove this unnecessary restriction and let the love flow through you.

P.S. Anyone want to marry me? :D

[Kari]

Not to mention, a large portion of males tend to play as females.
Just as well, plenty of females play as males. [Most of my female friends play as males in MMOs.]

This is a fantasy game after all.

[Kabel]

Great idea. Not much other to say than that.

[Zyrs]

But what about the Galkas? They have no sex at all. How can they get married?



edited to add: I agree with the main post. I don't see what the big deal about it is - just let characters marry other characters without having to worry about if they picked the right avatar.

[Dazusu]

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

I am for a change in this direction, though.

[Runespider]

American parents in particular would be up in arms over a game offering same sex marriage (they would say promoting the idea to minors) will never happen lol It's not worth the fallout.

Keep in mind that it happening in a story in another game is another matter compared to two real people actually going though it in an mmo and taking it rather seriously.

[Alkalinehoe]

But what about the Galkas? They have no sex at all. How can they get married?



edited to add: I agree with the main post. I don't see what the big deal about it is - just let characters marry other characters without having to worry about if they picked the right avatar.
Hmmm, Can Galkas not marry at all? I was under the impression they were considered Male. And it doesn't matter, no one cares about the Galkas.

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

I am for a change in this direction, though.
I am being genuine when I say I want same sex marriages, however, I thought I would have a little fun with it while I was at it.

[Kari]

American parents in particular would be up in arms over a game offering same sex marriage (they would say promoting the idea to minors) will never happen lol It's not worth the fallout.

That's a load of bull.
To begin with, parents generally don't care to that level of detail.
You think most parents even know that this game has marriage at all?

Most online games these days that offer dating/relationship/marriage systems, allow it for all sexes.
Especially since most of these systems offer a benefit for being in said relationship, therefore making it unfair to people who play together but can't be partners due to gender limitations, etc.

And Zyrs, as-is Galkas are considered male for marriage and other such purposes.

The only reason I'd see SE declining this, is due to pure laziness, which is very likely.

[Alkalinehoe]

American parents in particular would be up in arms over a game offering same sex marriage (they would say promoting the idea to minors) will never happen lol It's not worth the fallout.

Keep in mind that it happening in a story in another game is another matter compared to two real people actually going though it in an mmo and taking it rather seriously.
You can certainly discuss controversial issues in game and you discuss controversial issues in school as well. Abortion, same sex marriage, civil unions, gun control laws, etc were all issues that came up in my high school government class. Frankly, if your parents feel that you are not old enough to discuss these issues then perhaps they should reevaluate letting their child play an online game where they can interact with adults who aren't afraid of speaking about said issues.

And it's not even that SE is promoting gay marriage, they are merely allowing the players to choose for themselves.

[Mirage]

I totally want same sex marriages too ;o

[Runespider]

That's a load of bull.
To begin with, parents generally don't care to that level of detail.
You think most parents even know that this game has marriage at all?

A lot of americans care about what the media tells them to care about, I can't think of any MMOs that offer marriage to the level FFXI goes with it and it not being an 18 rated game. Can you name some?

[Alkalinehoe]

I totally want same sex marriages too ;o Yay! :D :D

[Alkalinehoe]

A lot of americans care about what the media tells them to care about, I can't think of any MMOs that offer marriage to the level FFXI goes with it and it not being an 18 rated game. Can you name some?
The Sims 2. And they shared the same graphic cutscenes as straight couples did (The same Woo Hooing scene) when they engaged in sex. It was also rated T for Teen.

[Juri_Licious]

Marriage on a game period, is rather dumb anyways.

But anyways, referring to what the OP wanted.

New weapons or the following, maps, add ons, armor, NPCs or same sex marriages. Hmm....

I'll go with new content.

[Siros]

Now look,i get it if ur gay or w/e.My medic(im in the army)was gay an he was a cool friend,best medic u could ever have.But lets keep ur sexuality out of the game plz.I play the game ta have fun with my friends,not see u get fruitier than a bowl a trix with urs.

[Runespider]

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XD



But lets keep ur sexuality out of the game plz

It's already there, marriage is already in the game.

[Mirage]

Marriage on a game period, is rather dumb anyways.

But anyways, referring to what the OP wanted.

New weapons or the following, maps, add ons, armor, NPCs or same sex marriages. Hmm....

I'll go with new content.

This is a poor argument. You're making it sound like same-sex marriage is something so super incredibly difficult that you can't implement it and still have time to do the other things you mentioned.

I'm willing to bet that same-sex marriages wouldn't take more than like an hour to put into the game.

[Mirage]

Why are you bringing up an earth religion as an argument, when there isn't even any evidence of it being true?

[NrvnqsrKhaos]

I was wondering how long this topic would last without getting into the whole "but the gays are wrong" thing.

And I'm pretty sure the people who brought it up so far are just trolls.

So yay on that, I guess.

On topic: What the heck does it matter? If you wanna shout your love for (Asexual, mind you) galka crotch in Port Jeuno, go ahead. Having SE give you a shiny sticker doesn't make your love any less real. I mean seriously, if you cared what other people thought of your sexual exploits (sexploits?), you probably woudn't be openly gay.

As long as I'm not involved in the manpile, I can't see the harm in lettin' people love the way they wanna love. But you don't really need in-game marriage to prove that, unless you're just really insecure and seeking validation from some higher authority.

[Mirage]

I'm heterosexual, and you are a fascist.

[Moonblade]

I started this game with my partner because of the marriage systems. We were able to live out something in a fake world that is denied to us. However, me and him both pick very attractive male elvaans... we then found out we couldnt marry. He could marry my mule.... or I could marry his... but never together...

Fable and the Sims are two games that come to my mind that allow you marry whichever sex you want... and then there is Grand Theft Auto which kids play that has a sex scene...

If this game had to get a higher game rating in the US because of same-sex marriage, I'm all for it. States are slowly responding to their constituents and voting approval on Same-Sex marriages.... Marriage is allowed for all in 10 countries, 6 states and Recognized in 6 countries and 3 states...

Most of the play base that I know of would not have a problem with the idea - plus I agree that there would not be much technical game mechanics that would have to change to allow it to happen.

[Gadanae]

God. Don't you people every stop? Next thing ya know you'll be requiring that SE puts an "In-Game Gay Rights" forum or something. DO US ALL A FAVOR AND STFU!

[Xilk]

the idea of 'same-sex marriage' is pretty ridiculous in the first place. Put it in historical context. It has never come up in any culture before the last few decades. Japan is actually more sane than the west regarding this. It is not taken seriously in Asia at all. Marriage has been a religious institution far longer than a legal one, and even longer than cultural one. 'Same-sex marriage' is a farce. Its an attempt to force everyone to believe that homosexuality is better than the heterosexual marriage that has existed for all human history and nurtured and educated all members of the human family. You can believe whatever you want to believe, but so can I. Don't try to force me to believe this. This is an attack on freedom, NOT a fight for it.

"here lets flip the history of human-kind on its head to do a little experiment! Who cares about the lives that will be shattered in the process! I just want to see what will happen...." ... The more radical you try to shove the pendulum over, the harder it will swing back...

Homosexuality is a sexual deviance like any other fetish. If you want to go for it, more power to you, I really don't care. However, the concept of 'same-sex marriage' is a political contrivance for most and a personal grudge for the rest. Its an attempt to shove a lifestyle choice of a relatively small group of people down the throats of anyone who does not believe as they do.

I think it is sad that people want to reduce their entire lives down to a sexual interest. Life is more than sex! This is true for EVERYONE. If you reduce yourself to this I feel sorry for you. If you want to shove your sexual lifestyle in stranger's and everyone's face, then you are a perpetrator of sexual harassment, NOT a victim.

There is absolutely no reason to shove this into the game. SE should not even respond to these inquiries and demands. They have no responsibility to jump into this deceptive political game. I hope this thread and any thread about same-sex marriage in game gets NUKED.

[Moonblade]

God. Don't you people every stop? Next thing ya know you'll be requiring that SE puts an "In-Game Gay Rights" forum or something. DO US ALL A FAVOR AND STFU!

What is your issue with someone wanting to have and share their loving, happy, and healthy relationship? I don't understand it, especially in a gaming community.

When you make a flaming post stating "Do us all a favor and STFU!" you're not bringing yourself any credit or supporters. If you can provide a logical reason that does not include religion, I will be more than happy to listen and debate this.

Also, Xilk, thank you for saying that homosexuality is a sexual deviance like any other fetish. Whereas the American Psychological as well as many other Psychological Associates have stated that homosexuality is not a deviance. As well as thank you for stating "I think it is sad that people want to reduce their entire lives down to a sexual interest. Life is more than sex! This is true for EVERYONE. If you reduce yourself to this I feel sorry for you. If you want to shove your sexual lifestyle in stranger's and everyone's face, then you are a perpetrator of sexual harassment, NOT a victim."
Every time I see a heterosexual couple able to hold hands, or even slightly kiss in public without people yelling, name calling, or belittling them, shows that people don't care about the "heterosexual" sexual lifestyle.

Just be open minded, no one is trying to shove it down your throat and no one will force you to marry someone else who has created the same-sexed avatar for you. If I remember correctly, marriages are by choice, not force.

[Gadanae]

the idea of 'same-sex marriage' is pretty ridiculous in the first place. Put it in historical context. It has never come up in any culture before the last few decades. Japan is actually more sane than the west regarding this. It is not taken seriously in Asia at all. Marriage has been a religious institution far longer than a legal one, and even longer than cultural one. 'Same-sex marriage' is a farce. Its an attempt to force everyone to believe that homosexuality is better than the heterosexual marriage that has existed for all human history and nurtured and educated all members of the human family. You can believe whatever you want to believe, but so can I. Don't try to force me to believe this. This is an attack on freedom, NOT a fight for it.

"here lets flip the history of human-kind on its head to do a little experiment! Who cares about the lives that will be shattered in the process! I just want to see what will happen...." ... The more radical you try to shove the pendulum over, the harder it will swing back...

Homosexuality is a sexual deviance like any other fetish. If you want to go for it, more power to you, I really don't care. However, the concept of 'same-sex marriage' is a political contrivance for most and a personal grudge for the rest. Its an attempt to shove a lifestyle choice of a relatively small group of people down the throats of anyone who does not believe as they do.

I think it is sad that people want to reduce their entire lives down to a sexual interest. Life is more than sex! This is true for EVERYONE. If you reduce yourself to this I feel sorry for you. If you want to shove your sexual lifestyle in stranger's and everyone's face, then you are a perpetrator of sexual harassment, NOT a victim.

There is absolutely no reason to shove this into the game. SE should not even respond to these inquiries and demands. They have no responsibility to jump into this deceptive political game. I hope this thread and any thread about same-sex marriage in game gets NUKED.

^+2 this. Finally someone with brains speaks out. Thank you.

[Gadanae]

What is your issue with someone wanting to have and share their loving, happy, and healthy relationship? I don't understand it, especially in a gaming community.

When you make a flaming post stating "Do us all a favor and STFU!" you're not bringing yourself any credit or supporters. If you can provide a logical reason that does not include religion, I will be more than happy to listen and debate this.

Read Xilk's post. He says everything I wanted to. Thank Xilk.

[NrvnqsrKhaos]

the idea of 'same-sex marriage' is pretty ridiculous in the first place. Put it in historical context. It has never come up in any culture before the last few decades. Japan is actually more sane than the west regarding this. It is not taken seriously in Asia at all. Marriage has been a religious institution far longer than a legal one, and even longer than cultural one. 'Same-sex marriage' is a farce. Its an attempt to force everyone to believe that homosexuality is better than the heterosexual marriage that has existed for all human history and nurtured and educated all members of the human family. You can believe whatever you want to believe, but so can I. Don't try to force me to believe this. This is an attack on freedom, NOT a fight for it.

"here lets flip the history of human-kind on its head to do a little experiment! Who cares about the lives that will be shattered in the process! I just want to see what will happen...." ... The more radical you try to shove the pendulum over, the harder it will swing back...

Homosexuality is a sexual deviance like any other fetish. If you want to go for it, more power to you, I really don't care. However, the concept of 'same-sex marriage' is a political contrivance for most and a personal grudge for the rest. Its an attempt to shove a lifestyle choice of a relatively small group of people down the throats of anyone who does not believe as they do.

I think it is sad that people want to reduce their entire lives down to a sexual interest. Life is more than sex! This is true for EVERYONE. If you reduce yourself to this I feel sorry for you. If you want to shove your sexual lifestyle in stranger's and everyone's face, then you are a perpetrator of sexual harassment, NOT a victim.

There is absolutely no reason to shove this into the game. SE should not even respond to these inquiries and demands. They have no responsibility to jump into this deceptive political game. I hope this thread and any thread about same-sex marriage in game gets NUKED.

You abuse the strawman fallacy like a drunken stepfather.

Just sayin'.

[Siros]

Preach on Gadanae and Xilk!!! ,they need ta keep it in the closet with Justin Bieber an Elton John...

[Mirage]

So Gadanae,why do you want to shoot everyone who isn't a christian heterosexual? Cause that's what you were implying.

[Moonblade]

I have yet to see a valid reason. The only thing that is coming from the post is that people are "scared" of what they do not know and therefore think it should not be allowed.

No one reduces their life down to sex. Not only am I red-headed, left handed, irish-descent, but I also happen to be gay. Any of the aforementioned reasons will allow me to marry in the Real World with the exception of being gay. Why not allow in the fantasy game environment for same-sexed individuals get married. I know plenty of dudes who play Mithra's and plenty of women who play galka's/male-sexed avatars.... This is not about forcing a belief or forcing an ideology upon people. If you don't like the idea because of your moral/religious background - I can accept that but my morals and god has told me not to judge others.

[Mirage]

No, moonblade, you have to understand that in a perfect world, sexual deviants should be purged and everyone should be indoctrinated in the ways of the only true religion, christianity.

[NrvnqsrKhaos]

No, moonblade, you have to understand that in a perfect world, sexual deviants should be purged and everyone should be indoctrinated in the ways of the only true religion, christianity.

And now the strawmen from the "yay to gay" side. C'mon people, let's have a bit of class in our reasonable discussions of unimportant, underutilized systems in online games that aren't even currently active.

[Mirage]

And now the strawmen from the "yay to gay" side. C'mon people, let's have a bit of class in our reasonable discussions of unimportant, underutilized systems in online games that aren't even currently active.

Yes, I was exaggerating, but not very much. A few posts ago, you'll see someone saying basically just that,though a bit more subtle.

And it's not even that i'm "yay to gay", it's that I see no reason to discriminate against people who happen to prefer their own sex over the opposite, and definitely not based on your own personal religious belief.

Why should you even care if two men got married? Exactly how does it affect your personal or professional life?

It is something that is nice to homosexuals, and doesn't really affect anyone else. If you are thoroughly disgusted by two people being happily married, maybe the problem lies with you.

[Zyrs]

Yes, I know that Galkas are asexual and just considered male. I was making a joke.

SE could have just as easily made them asexual but considered female, with the same character models. I think that would have been incredibly funny, especially if they had given them the female armor models.

Really though, allowing any character to marry any other character isn't going to hurt anyone at all - I know numerous heterosexual couple that play as two mithra or two galka. If it would make it easier for those opposed, they should just think of it as two characters getting married, since it is all just bits and bytes.

[NrvnqsrKhaos]

I'm just saying, it's a heck of a lot easier to mock someone for something they kinda sorta implied that they may have been thinking than doing it for what they actually said.

Maybe Gadane was referring to some sort of cake and happiness gun, that was loaded with Understanding Shells and fired the buckshot we call Respectful Disagreement. You can't say for certain!

[Mirage]

You're right, I should apologize for jumping to conclusions.

Next time i see someone with a knife on the streets, I'm going to be open to the idea that it's made of chocolate and ask the guy if I can have a taste!

[Juri_Licious]

Also another note.

Who even uses the marriage system in this game? 1% of the FFXI population?

[Runespider]

the idea of 'same-sex marriage' is pretty ridiculous in the first place

Marriage in general is ridiculous, as a race we are hard wired to "be with" as many people as possible and this leads to marriages breaking up and/or one cheating on the other (some are better than others at not getting caught). As more time goes on and more things are acceptable marriage will fade even further away in importance, it's just totally silly in a race that's so Promiscuous and a culture that basically accepts it.

A lot of the posts here are trolling so keep that in mind if you get annoyed by them. They do give you an insight of what some people really do believe though and the outrage among hic parents thinking Square is trying to brainwash their kids into being gay would be more hassle than it's worth.

[NrvnqsrKhaos]

You're right, I should apologize for jumping to conclusions.

Next time i see someone with a knife on the streets, I'm going to assume it's made of chocolate and eat it!

Don't you go pulling the same stunt on me now. :< It's a really easy and really bad habit to get into, when arguing with people. I just try to point it out in hopes that people think more about what they type.

In your example, you have visual evidence that the knife is not, in fact, made of chocolate. And I personally would not antagonize a person who is visably armed in the same way I antagonize people I disagree with on the internet. I cannot say for certain if you share this trait, however.

Stuff like this is why legal speak is so complex. I'm getting tired of it already, and it's my pet peeve!

[Mirage]

Ok, i'll stop joking around now :<

I just get really frustrated sometimes you know

[NrvnqsrKhaos]

Dude/tte, I grew up in Kansas. I know these arguments front and back. I know frustration all too well.

I just decided when I was a cool teenager who didn't care about anything that I didn't care about stuff like that.

Now, as a moderately less cool adult, I care about stuff.

[Xilk]

So Gadanae,why do you want to shoot everyone who isn't a christian heterosexual? Cause that's what you were implying.

Now see, this is a strawman. Did anyone advocate depriving people of basic human rights for their choices?

I would be just as offended by someone attacking someone for their choice of homosexuality. In fact, I have gotten into a fight for EXACTLY that. Guess what, I've also fought off a groups of college morons who were picking on another guy because he's Jewish. The conservative Christian "hole-in-their-heads-where-their-brains-should-be" have attacked me for my religious beliefs since before I hit puberty. Ever Since puberty, the So-open-minded-liberal-my-brain-fell-out leftists have done the same since I was a teenager.

If you protect INDIVIDUAL freedoms, then 'demographics' and 'special interest groups' disappear.

People are people FIRST. Sexuality is way down line. The west is FULL of gay identity politics. It hurts everyone who has been convinced that their identity and their personal VALUE is based of their sexuality. I would not reduce a person to this. Do you have any idea how many 'homosexual' men who were pulled in by the identity politics later found they are attracted to women? Do you know how many 'bi-sexual' people are persecuted by the "homosexual community"?

"Here, life is tough, people are mean to you because they are haters. you belong w/ us. We'll give you a home. We'll take you in. ... (just one thing, You better tote the party line, or else)"

It functions like an abusive family, or a cult. Gee so many of those taken in while teen/tweens find later in life that they really are attracted to women! Sure, they have years of sexual association meaning they still find gratification in homosexual activity, but you can build the same associations with most anything. If you imprint in the middle of sexual development you can have someone who thinks there is nothing as drop dead sexy as orange peel or whatever other thing you can condition someone to. It takes YEARS of painful work to change this for those who WANT to.

Look below the surface. Sure, there are plenty of people who will say that "they are homosexual, it was born into them, its there nature and they couldn't be happier" There are also plenty who will say they were confused and upset and really don't know. The ones shouting are making a political move. The quiet ones are usually working on their emotional health.

You paint the issue WAY to small and simple. "haters are all the people on the other side of the argument" Yeah, right. There are haters on both sides. Keeping it reduced to such a simple level is just a way to avoid the DIFFICULT work or examining the issue and one's own feelings.

You can call my statements a straw-man all you want. It won't make it true. Its just an attempt to avoid the gruesome details and invalidate and ignore the items I bring up. Look deeper into it. Homosexuality has existing for a LONG LONG time. No culture has ever tried to make it into marriage. This idea had to be born of the cultural and political contrasts and pressures in the UNITED STATES of AMERICA.

Do you not know that culture, customs and traditions form society at a more profound and deeper level than law? Do you not understand how These are the source of the values and freedoms you enjoy in most developed counties of the world? Do you not understand that marriage is one of these basic, fundamental building pieces of society? Do you not understand that redefining it and changing it is to culture and society like tweaking the value of gravity would be to astronomical physics?

Its reckless and irresponsible at best. Its catastrophic and malicious at worst.

[NrvnqsrKhaos]

Let me start by saying I don't think you're entirely wrong. I disagree with some points, and your ways of making them, but I agree that people who support gay marraige for the reasons you state are not doing it for the right reasons.


Now see, this is a strawman. Did anyone advocate depriving people of basic human rights for their choices?

Yeah. I called her out on this.


I would be just as offended by someone attacking someone for their choice of homosexuality. In fact, I have gotten into a fight for EXACTLY that. Guess what, I've also fought off a groups of college morons who were picking on another guy because he's Jewish. The conservative Christian "hole-in-their-heads-where-their-brains-should-be" have attacked me for my religious beliefs since before I hit puberty. Ever Since puberty, the So-open-minded-liberal-my-brain-fell-out leftists have done the same since I was a teenager.

This serves no purpose to your argument. It's put in here for a pity plea to show that you're more rational and balanced than you come off. I'm not saying you aren't, but if someone's looking for it, it comes across as manipulation.


If you protect INDIVIDUAL freedoms, then 'demographics' and 'special interest groups' disappear.

This is true. No argument here.


People are people FIRST. Sexuality is way down line. The west is FULL of gay identity politics. It hurts everyone who has been convinced that their identity and their personal VALUE is based of their sexuality. I would not reduce a person to this. Do you have any idea how many 'homosexual' men who were pulled in by the identity politics later found they are attracted to women? Do you know how many 'bi-sexual' people are persecuted by the "homosexual community"?

"Here, life is tough, people are mean to you because they are haters. you belong w/ us. We'll give you a home. We'll take you in. ... (just one thing, You better tote the party line, or else)"

Where is this quote from? You're pulling an example from no where. People are certainly more than just a series of yes/no questions, and certainly, politics seems to revolve around pushing folks into specially designed holes that don't quite fit them. But I'm again having a hard time understanding your point. There are evil, self serving gay people who mislead others? Okay. I knew that, cause they're people, and it's not like we heteros have a monopoly on the jerk department.


It functions like an abusive family, or a cult. Gee so many of those taken in while teen/tweens find later in life that they really are attracted to women! Sure, they have years of sexual association meaning they still find gratification in homosexual activity, but you can build the same associations with most anything. If you imprint in the middle of sexual development you can have someone who thinks there is nothing as drop dead sexy as orange peel or whatever other thing you can condition someone to. It takes YEARS of painful work to change this for those who WANT to.

Scientifically true, and quite a compelling argument. But it reads like you assume this happens in the majority of cases where homosexuality is involved. If that is so, I have to respectfully disagree. This seems like a specialized case due to the work of the kind of assholes you mentioned in the preceeding paragraph, with no indication of how many gay (or supposedly gay) people actually have these problems. Furthermore, if a person is naturally gay, as is argued by many, then that sort of imprinting wouldn't change them.


Look below the surface. Sure, there are plenty of people who will say that "they are homosexual, it was born into them, its there nature and they couldn't be happier" There are also plenty who will say they were confused and upset and really don't know. The ones shouting are making a political move. The quiet ones are usually working on their emotional health.

I agree with the fact that the shouters are the ones who are looking to gain something from the legalization. But I think that the quiet ones mainly just want some peace. Maybe that counts as working on their emotional health? And what about this is looking deeper?


You paint the issue WAY to small and simple. "haters are all the people on the other side of the argument" Yeah, right. There are haters on both sides. Keeping it reduced to such a simple level is just a way to avoid the DIFFICULT work or examining the issue and one's own feelings.

Haters gonna hate, whether it be Orignal Recipe Hate or Crispy Counter Hatred. Hating for no sake other than other people be hating gets society nowhere. But on the other hand, I think that the homosexual community has plenty of reasons to be peeved about their rights and what not, and the issue should be examined in a level more substantial than the bickering of said haters.


You can call my statements a straw-man all you want. It won't make it true. Its just an attempt to avoid the gruesome details and invalidate and ignore the items I bring up. Look deeper into it. Homosexuality has existing for a LONG LONG time. No culture has ever tried to make it into marriage. This idea had to be born of the cultural and political contrasts and pressures in the UNITED STATES of AMERICA.

True. I call your arguments strawmen when they are; both your recent post and previous one pulled quotes from the nether, using them to substantiate your arguments as the "voice of the opposition". That's... pretty much a strawman, dude.

Marriage actually wasn't such a big deal in non-western societies, before western society brought everyone into it's euro centric mindset. Before the USA, I'd assume people were too scared to have the gay beaten out of them to think about marriage. Before the beatings and such, or outside of where said beatings occurred, there wasn't as much of a focus on the whole monogamy thing.

If there wasn't a clear economic advantage to marriage in the form of taxes, insurance, and other legal stuff, it wouldn't be an issue. If civil unions between gay people can give them the same rights, Let's go with that instead, cause it saves the whole "definition of marriage" debate from becoming a clustercluck of angry hens. But from experience, the US has learned "Seperate but Equal" doesn't work so well, and thus here we are.

Oh, and I don't think it's at all bad motives for gays to want marraige to be legalized so that they can enjoy the same benefits as straight couples. As it is now, they have to make due without said benefits, or be someone they're not to have equal treatment. You yourself claimed that people not being who they are is bad, right?


If you imprint in the middle of sexual development you can have someone who thinks there is nothing as drop dead sexy as orange peel or whatever other thing you can condition someone to. It takes YEARS of painful work to change this for those who WANT to.

Just making sure.


Do you not know that culture, customs and traditions form society at a more profound and deeper level than law? Do you not understand how These are the source of the values and freedoms you enjoy in most developed counties of the world? Do you not understand that marriage is one of these basic, fundamental building pieces of society? Do you not understand that redefining it and changing it is to culture and society like tweaking the value of gravity would be to astronomical physics?

Its reckless and irresponsible at best. Its catastrophic and malicious at worst.

And now the drama starts. This is not a strawman, it's a slippery slope with a strawman trap imbedded in it. I'll deftly avoid the trap of comparing man-made law to natural law and simply say that traditions mean absolutely nothing if they aren't currently useful to humanity. Because the tradition of marriage is not useful to some humans, they are looking to abandon the traditional description of it. The changed tradition doesn't mean that the old marriage doesn't exist anymore; nor will changing it somehow undo all of society in a earth shaking global orgy of decadence. The source of something becomes less important as the resulting whatever gains a shape of it's own, which is why vegetarians don't blame grass (Well, okay, corn) for making cows delicious.

So yeah. In game marriage no, cause it's not worth the crapstorm. Out of game marriage, probably, cause the benefits are more important and reasonable for all people to demand.

Then again, if out of game marriage becomes okay, I guess it'd be okay for in game marriage too.

This is getting confusing.

[Venat]

Square Enix already tould players they werent gonna do it cus they feel its just werid. Plus Gay's or Lesbains dont exsist in Vana'diel. Only on Planet Earth.

[Ilax]

People lost they mind for sure... As much i respect gay people, i still don't think is NORMAL or let say not natural.

Is maybe normal to have gay experience as every 'animal' in nature do, but to quote the union 'normal' i think some of you just lost they mind. As i say, i respect gay people since is freedom to everyone to choose they sexuality orientation, but at the point to show it publicly and try spread the word: Let all be gay, that to me is wrong.

You have to realize the difference between acceptance and expose everyone to something that is 'not normal' from base. I doubt anyone have realize yet that are kid looking at news, playing this game, see gay parade, and what you think they see into it? They have no clue yet about they sexuality and they are exposed to this.

Is even more shocking to see no hetero doing parade in the street that news can show at TV. So in the end figure the idea child make over they sexuality. For who still don't understand the point of all this, is also acceptable that someone have sex with someone from his family, animal do it, human always did it in many generation, do you really think that would be right to also show this in media everyday?

In the end what i am saying, even if you like do sex with dead people, love have gold shower, and i skip every other 'not normal' sex, i do not care, and i am respecting it, but that do not mean i wan to see it, or wan my kid see it as 'is normal'.

*Edit: I thanks SE to not support gay union, as i thanks canadian govement to have accept gay union. Some might say: WTF?... Think about it, SE gay marriage is symbolic, Canadian Gay marriage is to protect they right, reduce tax they have to pay, and so on, is way more then just spread the word: Let all be gay. But some just never make difference between acceptance and ignorance.


If there wasn't a clear economic advantage to marriage in the form of taxes, insurance, and other legal stuff, it wouldn't be an issue. If civil unions between gay people can give them the same rights, Let's go with that instead, cause it saves the whole "definition of marriage" debate from becoming a clustercluck of angry hens. But from experience, the US has learned "Seperate but Equal" doesn't work so well, and thus here we are

I agree with that, but people have to wake up, game union don't offer such of thing, but more symbolic that expose people/kid to it, that is by far over the acceptance. I am sure no one wan expose they kid to be gay just because is 'cool'...

[Mirage]

Of course it's not normal, only about 10-15% of the population is homosexual or bisexual. Doesn't really matter though, them getting married still doesn't really affect the rest of the world.

Who's talking about a "gay parade" in the game? Do you really think that would be the effects of allowing same sex marriage? In a game where 90% of the girls are actually guys?

[Ilax]

Of course it's not normal, only about 10-15% of the population is homosexual or bisexual. Doesn't really matter though, them getting married still doesn't really affect the rest of the world.

Getting married in RL is more then symbolic, but in game is just to expose other to it, same as do a GAY parade.

[Melodicya]

Hello Everyone!

Whatever your personal opinions on Same-Sex marriage, both sides can agree that it is a controversial topic world-wide. Because of its controversial nature, Same-Gender marriages are not currently available in Vana'diel in order to ensure the game is rated "T" (or its equivalent) worldwide.

We do appreciate to continue hearing your feedback on this, as policies are ever evolving and do change, and I'd like to add I personally do appreciate everyone that has particpated in this debate without flaming or being offensive, since it can be a very volatile subject. I do hope we can keep the conversation going if possible.

[Sagian]

the idea of 'same-sex marriage' is pretty ridiculous in the first place. Put it in historical context. It has never come up in any culture before the last few decades. Japan is actually more sane than the west regarding this. It is not taken seriously in Asia at all. Marriage has been a religious institution far longer than a legal one, and even longer than cultural one. 'Same-sex marriage' is a farce. Its an attempt to force everyone to believe that homosexuality is better than the heterosexual marriage that has existed for all human history and nurtured and educated all members of the human family. You can believe whatever you want to believe, but so can I. Don't try to force me to believe this. This is an attack on freedom, NOT a fight for it.

"here lets flip the history of human-kind on its head to do a little experiment! Who cares about the lives that will be shattered in the process! I just want to see what will happen...." ... The more radical you try to shove the pendulum over, the harder it will swing back...

Homosexuality is a sexual deviance like any other fetish. If you want to go for it, more power to you, I really don't care. However, the concept of 'same-sex marriage' is a political contrivance for most and a personal grudge for the rest. Its an attempt to shove a lifestyle choice of a relatively small group of people down the throats of anyone who does not believe as they do.

I think it is sad that people want to reduce their entire lives down to a sexual interest. Life is more than sex! This is true for EVERYONE. If you reduce yourself to this I feel sorry for you. If you want to shove your sexual lifestyle in stranger's and everyone's face, then you are a perpetrator of sexual harassment, NOT a victim.

There is absolutely no reason to shove this into the game. SE should not even respond to these inquiries and demands. They have no responsibility to jump into this deceptive political game. I hope this thread and any thread about same-sex marriage in game gets NUKED.

This post is so patently wrong, I don't even know where to begin.

Same-sex marriages have a very long and ancient history. You would do well to research the subject instead of parroting what you've been told.

In ancient China, through the Ming Dynasty, same-sex marriages were commonplace. An example of this, from the Zhou Dynasty, is recorded in the story of "Pan Zhang & Wang Zhongxian".

Ancient Eqypt allowed same-sex marriages as evidenced by the union of Niankhkhnum and Khnumhotep, two Royal Manuscripts to Pharaoh Niuserre during Egypt’s Fifth Dynasty.

Classical Europe allowed same-sex marriages until it was outlawed In 342 AD in Theodesian Code by Christian emperors Constantius II and Constans. The penalty for violating this code was execution.

That last bit is the source of so-called 'traditional' marriage. Marriage hijacked from same-sex couples 1600 years ago by two religious fanatics under the threat of murder should anyone defy the law.

If you want to look at the historical context of something, you have to look at the whole history, not just the parts that suit your position.

I will also point out that it is individuals such as yourself that want to reduce this issue to sexual interest. That, after all, is what your entire argument is based on. Proponents of marriage equality are the ones stating that the gender of one's marriage interest (and the sex they have) is, and should be, irrelevant.

[Ilax]

Hello Everyone!

Whatever your personal opinions on Same-Sex marriage, both sides can agree that it is a controversial topic world-wide. Because of its controversial nature, Same-Gender marriages are not currently available in Vana'diel in order to ensure the game is rated "T" (or its equivalent) worldwide.

We do appreciate to continue hearing your feedback on this, as policies are ever evolving and do change, and I'd like to add I personally do appreciate everyone that has particpated in this debate without flaming or being offensive, since it can be a very volatile subject. I do hope we can keep the conversation going if possible.

Thanks Melodicya for giving us feed back =)

[Ilax]

Same-sex marriages have a very long and ancient history. You would do well to research the subject instead of parroting what you've been told.

Same as family sex. Is why i pointed this out, but as i say is all about acceptance and ignorance... Both side could have good argument about it, but not mean acceptance will follow, in this regard i thanks SE to keep they position.

[Arcon]

Marriage was in fact a religious institution, as was mentioned before. It was a permanent band between a man and a woman. Asking for same sex marriage in that fashion is like a dwarf asking to join the Giant's Club, it just doesn't belong in there, per definition.

However, marriage means something different now, on the one hand it's political and married couples have rights and options others don't. For that reason marriage should be allowed between all people, regardless of gender.

On the other hand, it's also a symbol of expressing your feelings, of intending to be with one person permanently. It's the highest culturally recognized expression of love and commitment. And if a same sex couple wants to express their love like that, no one should have the right to stop them.

Now none of this has to do with FFXI. It's a fantasy game, yes, but that doesn't mean same-sex marriage must be allowed. It simply means that the culture can be designed unlike the reality, that's the definition of fantasy. If that culture is one that disapproves of same-sex marriage, then that's that.

However, I doubt that's what this is about and I doubt that that's what SE intended. They simply wanted couples to express their love for each other within the game. (And while we're at it, that's neither dumb nor proof that they are not a real couple 'cause they "need" to express their feelings for each over ingame too. It's simply something they want, and people who disapprove of that for no reason should just keep it to themselves until they find one.) And this is now just a matter of opinion. Should this fantasy world acknowledge same-sex marriage?

This has nothing at all to do with real relationships, seeing how women can play male characters and 90% of Mithras are men anyway.

And yes, it would be easy to code, just remove the male/female only restriction on Matrimony Bands/Rings and remove the gender check line from the Wedding Certificate NPC.

And to those people saying marriage is stupid 'cause we're hard wired to be promiscuous and "want to be with" as many people as possible, that's a completely ridiculous argument. What nature wants for us or even designed us to be is not what makes us human, what makes us people, certainly not what makes us individuals. Nature and evolution are nothing but trial and error games, and as such are both slow and prone to mistakes. People can decide what they want outside of their natural cravings (or in this case, the cravings of our ancestors, which have nothing to do with our current generation). People look for meaning in more than sex and even if they find other individuals of their species attractive, they can reason and decide that it's best for them to ignore that attraction in favor of maintaining a stable relationship.

Maybe people who believe that just haven't met that someone that makes them feel like this yet, someone that makes you wonder whether you ever felt such urges to begin with, 'cause you don't look at anyone else anymore. Which is why I wouldn't blame them, for the longest time I believed that too. I thought "the one" was a childhood fantasy instilled in us by movies and stories and mathematically speaking the chances of finding someone you wanna be with exclusively and forever are close to zero. Thankfully I was proven wrong and I can speak from experience that this is not the case. Some people really do wanna be with one person, and one person only. Maybe that also doesn't extend to everyone, but you shouldn't condemn people to what nature designed them to be just 'cause you don't understand or know their feelings.

[Renesmay]

American parents in particular would be up in arms over a game offering same sex marriage (they would say promoting the idea to minors) will never happen lol It's not worth the fallout.

If I recall even after 6 years of playing there is an age limit 13 if i remember right on this game. Plus this game with same sex marriage is no where near close what kids see/hear at school in public on the news, tv and movies. Maybe even at home even.
I think same sex marriage would be hella awesome! Also for them to add a MALE MITHRA to the game and allow 1 free face change ><

[Xilk]

No, its not all bad motives from homosexuals who want same-sex marriage. It doesn't take bad motives to do something very very destructive, ill-thought out, and wrong.
For most people, simply hearing the line "Equal rights for homosexuals" is enough to convince them. Who can argue against equal rights?
In american social politics, its been popular to start titling MANY things as "RIGHTS" that are not rights. You could say marriage is a 'RITE' but its really not a "RIGHT". Healthcare is not a "RIGHT' its a priveledge. Cars and employment are not RIGHTS. They may be needs, but they are not rights. Marriage is a freedom. Marriage is a privilege.

What homosexual has ever been denied the choice to marry? Any man or woman of legal age is free to marry another. What is contested is forcing everyone else to call a same-gender union a marriage. With that everyone else must respect it the same as they respect a real marriage.

The politics are that the lobby is NOT trying to gain any freedom, they are trying to redefine it as a union between man and man or woman and woman, which is something it has never meant. When you try to use law to redefine what is, then you are most certainly affecting everyone else.


This serves no purpose to your argument. It's put in here for a pity plea to show that you're more rational and balanced than you come off. I'm not saying you aren't, but if someone's looking for it, it comes across as manipulation.

My background experience/information serve my argument by showing that I am not what the accusation stated. The accusation was designed to invalidate my points without addressing them at all. Its not a plea for pity.

More rational than I come off huh? opinions vary widely on that one I should think... With any historical perspective, the idea of same-sex marriage is about as irrational as I can think of.


Marriage actually wasn't such a big deal in non-western societies, before western society brought everyone into it's euro centric mindset. Before the USA, I'd assume people were too scared to have the gay beaten out of them to think about marriage. Before the beatings and such, or outside of where said beatings occurred, there wasn't as much of a focus on the whole monogamy thing.

I'm sorry this is grossly false. If you have no judeochristian background whatsoever, any scholar can point to the bible even in a PURELY historical context which refutes this completely. Marriage predates Western Civilization completely. It is ubiquitous in ALL cultures. All, not some, not most, ALL. I use the bible as an easy source, but really any ancient text or stories, myths, etc. They are married. Indian, Chinese, Persian, Babylonian, Mongolian, African... everyone had marriage, its central to how the tribes, societies, customs, civilizations are organized.

Also, if I made a straw-man, than this certainly is too. Where are your references for this statement? but I don't think its a strawman. you are presenting a premise. A straw-man is arguing against a position that I have neither stated nor agree to at all as if it were my position. It is a distracting technique. I perhaps skipped some steps in the arguments at worst, but I jumped to what I have found to be the heart of the matter. If you disagree about my premises, we can discuss the premises, but its no straw man.


If there wasn't a clear economic advantage to marriage in the form of taxes, insurance, and other legal stuff, it wouldn't be an issue. If civil unions between gay people can give them the same rights, Let's go with that instead, cause it saves the whole "definition of marriage" debate from becoming a clustercluck of angry hens. But from experience, the US has learned "Seperate but Equal" doesn't work so well, and thus here we are.

This is an excuse for some, but its not enough and I don't believe it is the driving reason for people to argue for same-sex marriage. In the US there are certainly economic benefits given to married couples. These are not a right. Married couples have no right to them at all. The tax laws and benefits give to married people are not protected in the Constitution, they are not guarenteed. They are privileges given because some lawmakers actually noticed something in wisdom. (its not really that hard to figure out though). Families, procreation, and marriage are VERY good for a culture and a nation. Economically, culturally and so forth. These benefits were developed because raising children benefits society tremendously, and its very demanding and difficult. Its a kind of 'pay it forward' approach.
A same-sex couple does not procreate. If they try to form a family w/ same-gender parents at the top, it is an experiment, not a proven benefit to society.

This is plenty of legal reasoning for the economic and tax laws not to be extended to homosexual partnerships. Its not a right.
These are the types of arguments that persuade academics and lawmakers. They are general, and ambiguous. The motivating reason for an individual or couple is MUCH more personal. The personal reasons people will most likely want? Well, they've chosen a lifestyle that is certainly not normal. The homosexual politics have largely won. They have made an identity out of this choice and gained many laws and moneys from doing so. However it is not enough. What they really want now is acceptance and vindication. Its really the same thing that many have wanted: Acceptance.
People want a home, a family, a community. You can demand tolerance for things that do not infringe upon the freedoms of others, but you cannot demand acceptance. That is the point where you are infringing upon others rights.
Changing marriage to include same-sex partnerships is requiring the law and the rest of society to accept a belief.
The slippery slope is changing the definitions of things.


This is not a strawman, it's a slippery slope with a strawman trap imbedded in it. I'll deftly avoid the trap of comparing man-made law to natural law and simply say that traditions mean absolutely nothing if they aren't currently useful to humanity. Because the tradition of marriage is not useful to some humans, they are looking to abandon the traditional description of it. The changed tradition doesn't mean that the old marriage doesn't exist anymore; nor will changing it somehow undo all of society in a earth shaking global orgy of decadence. The source of something becomes less important as the resulting whatever gains a shape of it's own, which is why vegetarians don't blame grass (Well, okay, corn) for making cows delicious.

It is not tradition for tradition's sake. If a traditions has no more reason that it is tradition, then I believe it is time to cast it aside. Marriage is so much more than that. Marriage is an agreement and a commitment between a man and a woman, god and their society. Marriage has been shown to be the best environment for children to grow up healthy. Marriage shows commitment of love between the partners, yes. However it also tells society what to expect from married persons.

Marriage is useful to all of society even if you are not a direct participant. Marriage forms the family, raises the next generation. This generation provides all the human elements of continuing art, economics, etc. Society does not continue w/out procreation. Children do not grow into healthy productive adults without help. There are exceptions ofcourse, but by and large, this happens in a healthy family headed by a man and woman.

Marriage is under severe threat. This is certainly true. In the US 50% of marriages end in divorce. This is scary for a society and it is very destructive. This does not mean that marriage is meaningless. The very fact we are having this discussion completely counters that idea. If it were meaningless neither of us would discuss it at all. It certainly would not be a political issue. Even if 50% fail, it means 50% succeed. Thats alot. Of the 50% that fail, do you believe all those people feel marriage failed them? The marriage itself was meaningless? Not at all. Most remarry. Most keep trying.

The lack of trust in people keeping commitments is what is hurting society. The lack of faith in the customs and traditions is what causes this deterioration. Saying marriage is meaningless because people break faith, is like saying law is meaningless because people break the law. Is there a different reason one might think marriage is meaningless?

It seems we agree in game same-sex marriage is not going to happen and would not be worth it for SE to make happen.


another side note: In Japan homosexuality is treated much more like a joke than in western counties. They do not have a judeochristian background at all. The overall perspective is quite different regarding religion and it is less accepting of homosexuality and same-sex marriage than the west is. The freedoms we value in Judeochristian society actually give more opportunity for this argument in the first place.

[Ilax]

@Xilk +1 on this post.

[Alhanelem]

You need to respect the cultural differences. SE would likely experience major backlash in japan if it allowed this. I'm all for it, but Japan is not as accepting of this situation as we are in the US, so it will most likely never happen.

That said, as there is no longer an "official" wedding service, you can pretty much do whatever you want, except get your names put on the ring.

This is all aside from the apparent concern that the game's rating might change in some countries if this were allowed.

Hello Everyone!

Whatever your personal opinions on Same-Sex marriage, both sides can agree that it is a controversial topic world-wide. Because of its controversial nature, Same-Gender marriages are not currently available in Vana'diel in order to ensure the game is rated "T" (or its equivalent) worldwide.

We do appreciate to continue hearing your feedback on this, as policies are ever evolving and do change, and I'd like to add I personally do appreciate everyone that has particpated in this debate without flaming or being offensive, since it can be a very volatile subject. I do hope we can keep the conversation going if possible.

I must say... it's really great of you to respond on this issue.

[Xilk]

Pan Zhang & Wang Zhongxian
There is no record of any marriage. They lived together in a relationship. there is nothing suggesting this is more than another homosexual romance in ancient history. This does not suggest a legal or cultural acceptance of marriage between the 2.

Niankhkhnum and Khnumhotep
both were married to women and had children and families. They were not married to each other.

but guess you have me on a technicality, I painted the brush a too broadly. Its not completely new idea to have same sex marriage. Guess I was a bit en-passioned about the argument. I really should have known better to think something original was actually thought of.

Apparently Nero thought of it. I wouldn't really want that as my reference though. Thats why it got recorded, there was an insane emperor who thought of it too. There is not clear information on how any practice may have been. Most homosexuality in Rome was for married older men to have younger male 'mistresses' for lack of a better term. (BTW another insane Roman emperor tried to make his horse a Consul and a priest... (Caligula) How can you account for the insanity of Kings and Emperors?)

This rarity hardly gives any credit to the concept.

[Cellsplitter]

All I see here is "It's not natural" or "Bible sais no!" "I don't understand it" "It's icky!". If you say marrige is for the purpouse of having and raising kids then infertile people would then be not allowed to marry?

I'd like to see a argument against gay-marrige that can't be used against straight-marrige. Without invoking riligious, social or personal biases.

P.S. I'm not Gay :) I just love Yuri <3 w

[Alhanelem]

Without invoking riligious, social or personal biases.Well the thing is, marraige itself was originally a religious institution long before it had legal ramifications in any government. So it's hard not to bring any such bias to the table.

[Deadvinta]

I can't find it, but I could have sworn someone said there are no gay people in the storyline.

My response to that is "someone hasn't played Wings of the Goddess~~."

[Hyperon]

If you allow two male humes to marry next will be a galka and a beastmen or a mithra and a moogle. We must up hold...wait...do we even have guidelines for sexual orientation in this game....in that case fuck it, go crazy! I personally don't care :)

[Cellsplitter]

Well the thing is, marraige itself was originally a religious institution long before it had legal ramifications in any government. So it's hard not to bring any such bias to the table.

I guess it depends on the country you live in. But I don't want that to be an excuse :(

[Tenshibaby]

You shouldn't equate "progressive" with "progress".

[chrism]

You need to respect the cultural differences. SE would likely experience major backlash in japan if it allowed this. I'm all for it, but Japan is not as accepting of this situation as we are in the US, so it will most likely never happen.

That said, as there is no longer an "official" wedding service, you can pretty much do whatever you want, except get your names put on the ring.

This is all aside from the apparent concern that the game's rating might change in some countries if this were allowed.


I must say... it's really great of you to respond on this issue.



I agree with this , If same sex marriage is allowed it will not only affect gameplay and the rating of FF11 but could potentially push other players who are against same sex marriage away from FF11 and that could be a huge ordeal for Square enix not to mention they are already going through enough with the earthquakes in japan... I'm just sad to read the news that we USA players have to suffer through a week of no play because it... You would think that there would be backup servers in the USA so the rest of us could play or something but No.

[Tenshibaby]

I'm just sad to read the news that we USA players have to suffer through a week of no play because it... You would think that there would be backup servers in the USA so the rest of us could play or something but No.
Yes, this is the true tragedy of the past weekend. This and losing an hour of sleep. Life is so hard for us...
But on the bright side the earthquake shortened the length of a day by a few microseconds so your life span will increase.

/sarcasm

[Ilax]

You would think that there would be backup servers in the USA so the rest of us could play or something but No.

Go outside and discover the real world...

[Ilax]

People like this almost make me wish the game totally crash, and find out how horrible they are at life, i mean if is what you need to offer better sympathy for japan...

[Alkalinehoe]

Hello Everyone!

Whatever your personal opinions on Same-Sex marriage, both sides can agree that it is a controversial topic world-wide. Because of its controversial nature, Same-Gender marriages are not currently available in Vana'diel in order to ensure the game is rated "T" (or its equivalent) worldwide.

We do appreciate to continue hearing your feedback on this, as policies are ever evolving and do change, and I'd like to add I personally do appreciate everyone that has particpated in this debate without flaming or being offensive, since it can be a very volatile subject. I do hope we can keep the conversation going if possible.

What I don't understand is that why FFXI would suddenly get an M rating when there are other games, like the previously mentioned The Sims series, that have more graphic depictions and still receive T ratings.

[Arcon]

What I don't understand is that why FFXI would suddenly get an M rating when there are other games, like the previously mentioned The Sims series, that have more graphic depictions and still receive T ratings.

Melodicya mentioned the worldwide T rating. While in America it is commonly accepted in video games, there may be other countries that aren't as tolerant on this subject. And adjusting the game for certain country doesn't work, as it's an international MMORPG, and it's not something that can just be censored for certain countries, it's a core game feature.

[Alhanelem]

What I don't understand is that why FFXI would suddenly get an M rating when there are other games, like the previously mentioned The Sims series, that have more graphic depictions and still receive T ratings.
I don't know anything about Sims 3 that strikes me as "graphic" enough to get worse than a Teen rating. Anything that is "graphic" gets bleeped/blocked out/pixelated so you can't really see it. And Sims 3 as far as I know does not have GLBT marriage.

[Canadian]

Hmmm, Can Galkas not marry at all? I was under the impression they were considered Male. And it doesn't matter, no one cares about the Galkas.

There are some females that play as Galka, on my server anyways.

[Fiarlia]

Really? I was hoping it'd be a lot longer before this retarded topic was brought up.

Personally, I have no issue with homosexual men, or bisexual men, or lesbians, or even transsexuals, nor what or who they do in real life. In fact, in real life, I'm in support of gay marriage. Not to say I'm pro-gay, I just don't give a *** and think if someone wants to marry they should be able to.

However, FFXI != real life. It's a video game, and while it's not really marketed or directed at 13 year olds, they are able to play it and would likely be a factor in the decision making process at SE. If you look at the US, it's quite obvious that there's a large amount of people who are against gay marriage. Again, I'm not, and I think people who are are just plain stubborn, bigoted, or an overly religious fanatic, perhaps even stupid. However, I know that I'm not quite in the majority, and I'm sure that anyone who is gay/bi/lesbian/transgender is also aware of this, hence why gay marriage isn't legal in so many states.

Whether or not you want to admit it, SE would receive a ton of backlash if they allowed this. From politicians, to retailers, to parents, to anyone looking for another excuse to criticize the game industry and/or MMO's. Hell, even just criticize SE themselves.

Asking a company that puts out games and content that you love to play to get behind your own views and be publicly liberal and pro-gay-marriage is honestly selfish. This is a video game, not the streets of San Fransisco where you can have your parade. This is not the proper means or outlet to cry out about the injustices you have to suffer at the hands of stubborn politicians, regardless of how much of right you actually have to cry (which I think you do - just not here).

Just because you might be gay does not mean that every facet of you life, online and off, has to be involved with the gay movement.

***, instead of wasting the time of this forums readers and the DEV team (since they addressed this YEARS ago that they would not do this) by posting this, why not write a letter to your Governer or Senator? Or organize a peaceful protest in front of City Hall? Or if you're one of the gay people that happens to be lucky enough to live in a state that accepts you and allows you to marry, write to the heads of other states?

I'm all for gay rights, but come on, people, pick and choose your battles. This one is a lost cause and a waste of energy.

[Alkalinehoe]

Melodicya mentioned the worldwide T rating. While in America it is commonly accepted in video games, there may be other countries that aren't as tolerant on this subject. And adjusting the game for certain country doesn't work, as it's an international MMORPG, and it's not something that can just be censored for certain countries, it's a core game feature.
I get that other countries have different rating systems, but it really isn't a core game feature. It's an event that so little actually take advantage of and really is meant for the few dedicated who actually want to take it up. Heck, I would be fine if the ceremony didn't even involve any kissing (never been to a in game wedding before, so not sure exactly if they kiss, just as long as it's open to other players. It really baffles me that other countries would raise the rating just for that single thing. I recall another MMO that allowed their in game marriages to open up to same sex couples without any ratings scandal (the name escapes me atm) but it shows it can be done.


I don't know anything about Sims 3 that strikes me as "graphic" enough to get worse than a Teen rating. Anything that is "graphic" gets bleeped/blocked out/pixelated so you can't really see it. And Sims 3 as far as I know does not have GLBT marriage.
Not sure about The Sims 3, but in The Sims 2 there were GLBT marriages. And yes, everything is pixelated but they still recieve the same pixelated sex as the straight sims.


There are some females that play as Galka, on my server anyways.

I didn't mean if there were no females playing galkas, I meant that if SE considered the Galkan race males. So if a Galka could marry a female player or could not marry at all.



However, FFXI != real life. It's a video game, and while it's not really marketed or directed at 13 year olds,

Are you implying 13 year olds can't be gay or know what homosexuality is? I can assure you most know more than you think.


they are able to play it and would likely be a factor in the decision making process at SE. If you look at the US, it's quite obvious that there's a large amount of people who are against gay marriage

Most polls (and elections, Prop 8 for example) show that America is pretty much split down the half on the issue, with just slightly more leaning towards gay marriage. So they are certainly not the majority.


Again, I'm not, and I think people who are are just plain stubborn, bigoted, or an overly religious fanatic, perhaps even stupid. However, I know that I'm not quite in the majority, and I'm sure that anyone who is gay/bi/lesbian/transgender is also aware of this, hence why gay marriage isn't legal in so many states.

From laws that are old and are meant to keep bigotry rampant. Not to mention that there are many republican states and the elected officials (Judges, governors, senators, etc) that are not in favor of gay marriage, however, they do not always do what their people want them to do.



Whether or not you want to admit it, SE would receive a ton of backlash if they allowed this. From politicians, to retailers, to parents, to anyone looking for another excuse to criticize the game industry and/or MMO's. Hell, even just criticize SE themselves.


A ton of backlash from a nearly decade old game that frankly no one but the dedicated players care about? SE has already shown with their lesbian couple in XIII that they aren't opposed to same sex relationships. From what the moderator said earlier (I know, not an official SE statement but I will go with it) they are more concerned about the ratings increase then with the issue itself.


Asking a company that puts out games and content that you love to play to get behind your own views and be publicly liberal and pro-gay-marriage is honestly selfish.

Really? Cause honestly, most of the straight people who were in here said they SE shouldn't because of their religious/political views. I guess everyone is a little selfish which comes to my next comment,


This is a video game, not the streets of San Fransisco where you can have your parade.

No matter how much you claim to agree with gay marriage advocates, with your pointless stereotypes you aren't helping the situation nor are you contributing. It just makes you look like an ill informed man.


Just because you might be gay does not mean that every facet of you life, online and off, has to be involved with the gay movement.

Then why did SE include the marriage in the first place? Obviously straight people need to be 100% straight 100% of the time.


***, instead of wasting the time of this forums readers and the DEV team (since they addressed this YEARS ago that they would not do this) by posting this, why not write a letter to your Governer or Senator? Or organize a peaceful protest in front of City Hall? Or if you're one of the gay people that happens to be lucky enough to live in a state that accepts you and allows you to marry, write to the heads of other states?

I fail to see this thread any less worthy then any other thread in the forum. I was unaware this issue was brought up in the past with SE, however, what is wrong with trying to improve upon a game you play? Yes it's a game, but it's also something many people invest a lot of time in, straight or gay, so any suggestion a player has (within reason, and this request is) is valid.

[Csitri]

This response is to Xilk’s post, which was a well-stated and conscientious addition to the discussion. Quoted sections are from his post.


You could say marriage is a 'RITE' but its really not a "RIGHT". … Marriage is a freedom. Marriage is a privilege. [sic]

What is the difference between a freedom and a right? Can we agree that a right is a freedom with Constitutional backing?

Who gets to decide what is a right? You? Me? I'm not a constitutional scholar, yet I believe marriage is a right. Is there a reason one of our beliefs should be given more credibility?

We have differing opinions, but the legal standard lies with the United States Supreme Court. They haven't yet ruled on same-sex marriage, but they have ruled on interracial marriage. In this ruling they applied a passage of the fourteenth amendment of the US Constitution to marriage, and wrote that … the freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men … and that … To deny this fundamental freedom on so unsupportable a basis as the racial classifications embodied in these statutes, classifications so directly subversive of the principle of equality at the heart of the Fourteenth Amendment, is surely to deprive all the State's citizens of liberty without due process of law. The Fourteenth Amendment requires that the freedom of choice to marry not be restricted by invidious racial discriminations. Under our Constitution, the freedom to marry, or not marry, a person of another race resides with the individual and cannot be infringed by the State.

This ruling struck down the ban on interracial marriage. I am not claiming here that it should apply to same-sex marriage—that is a separate argument entirely. However, it shows that the US Supreme Court has in the past considered marriage a vital personal right and a fundamental freedom. It's unlikely they would overturn this in future rulings.


What homosexual has ever been denied the choice to marry? Any man or woman of legal age is free to marry another.

In 1967, prior to Loving v. Virginia, a black woman could marry a black man and a white woman could marry a white man. Today, a gay woman can marry a man and a gay man can marry a woman. In both cases you can ask, who is being denied the choice to marry?

Loving, a black woman, asked, "Why can a white woman marry a white man, but not I?" Today, the gay woman asks, "Why can a man marry a woman, but not I?" The Supreme Court declared marriage was a "vital personal right essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men." Loving’s happiness was a white man. A gay woman’s happiness is a woman. Neither was being denied the ability to marry, but the ability to marry the person who would make them happy.

The Supreme court ruled that limiting a person’s options by racial classification subverted the principle of equality in the fourteenth amendment. They have not yet ruled on whether limiting a person’s options by sex classification does the same.


What is contested is forcing everyone else to call a same-gender union a marriage. With that everyone else must respect it the same as they respect a real marriage.

Redefinitions are a byproduct of human society. Language, and law, evolve as we grow and learn. Marriage law has undergone changes in the past, and it will undoubtedly undergo changes in the future. Public perception, depiction, and understanding of gay relationships have shifted over time. Human beings have a tremendous capacity to learn, to adapt.

Many people would dislike this change. And there would be a great deal of change, if there were not marriage and same-sex marriage, but only marriage. Dictionaries would be reprinted. Wikipedia would update pages. Countless legal forms would be redesigned. Database tables would be restructured. Language and conversational assumptions would shift, realign. There would be a long period of adjustment both in infrastructure and social discourse.

However, the role of the court is not to make sure people are happy with every change. The role of the court is to act as a check on executive and congressional power, to ensure that the passage of new laws, or alterations to existing ones, adhere to the principles of the Constitution.


If there wasn't a clear economic advantage to marriage in the form of taxes, insurance, and other legal stuff, it wouldn't be an issue.

edit: I reread Xilk's post and saw this section was a quote. My response therefore is not to Xilk but to the quoted passage

The economic advantages of marriage certainly are an incentive, and I don’t doubt they played a part in speeding along the challenges to marriage laws. However, I disagree that without them the issue would not exist. If we accept that the ability to marry a person we love is fundamental to the pursuit of happiness—as discussed, this fundamental right business is for the court to decide—then it should be an issue even without the financial benefits. People marry for many other reasons—religious, social, spiritual, and emotional—and having your friends, your community, your laws, your society, your country backing your relationship, saying, “This is a good thing. We support this,” is a big part of it.


In the US there are certainly economic benefits given to married couples. These are not a right. ... These benefits were developed because raising children benefits society tremendously, and its very demanding and difficult. Its a kind of 'pay it forward' approach. [sic]

I agree with everything you say here.


A same-sex couple does not procreate. If they try to form a family w/ same-gender parents at the top, it is an experiment, not a proven benefit to society.

Same-sex couples have been raising children via adoption, surrogate pregnancies, sperm or egg donation, or past or transsexual partnerships, for many years. The 2000 Census figures reveal a third of gay women-headed households, and a quarter of gay male ones, were raising children at that time. Undoubtedly these rates would go up if same-sex marriage were legal.

At what point does the experiment end? What is the definition of proven benefit? Clarification on these points is necessary for your argument to hold. I argue that children raised in same-sex parent households grow up and contribute to society just as do those raised in opposite-sex parent households, and thereby benefit society.


You can demand tolerance for things that do not infringe upon the freedoms of others, but you cannot demand acceptance. That is the point where you are infringing upon others rights. … Changing marriage to include same-sex partnerships is requiring the law and the rest of society to accept a belief.

You are right. You cannot demand acceptance, only tolerance. The court can pass a law that allows gay people to marry each other. It cannot make people like it. That attitude, that perception, that belief, that personal acceptance will only happen as society evolves over time.

However, passing a law does not require every person to accept a belief. When Loving v. Virginia was passed, a huge portion of the country continued to believe that marriage between blacks and whites was wrong. There are people today who believe this. Changing a law changes a law. People change at their own pace.


Marriage is so much more than that. Marriage is an agreement and a commitment between a man and a woman, god and their society.

God only comes into the picture if the couple desires. The distinction of man and woman in your definition is the issue on the table, and so must be omitted; the argument “marriage can’t be between two women because marriage is between a man and a woman” is like saying “women can’t vote because voting is something only men do.”


Marriage has been shown to be the best environment for children to grow up healthy. Marriage shows commitment of love between the partners, yes. However it also tells society what to expect from married persons. … Marriage is useful to all of society even if you are not a direct participant. Marriage forms the family, raises the next generation. This generation provides all the human elements of continuing art, economics, etc. Society does not continue w/out procreation. Children do not grow into healthy productive adults without help.

If marriage strengthens the family, benefits children, and helps them grow into healthy, productive members of society, why should we bar same-sex parents from marrying? Do you believe that a partner or child in a same-sex household is better off unmarried? That the rank ordering of “healthiness” is (child in opposite-sex household) > (child in unmarried household) > (child in same-sex household)? Every relevant accredited organization, such as the American Medical Association and the American Psychological Association, has concluded otherwise—they support same-sex couples raising children, and have found no evidence that same-sex parenting causes harm, that this belief is merely a social prejudice.


It seems we agree in game same-sex marriage is not going to happen and would not be worth it for SE to make happen.

I would love to see them implement it, but I’m not holding my breath. In any case, this discussion is healthy, and I thank you for adding to it a thoughtful and considerate contribution.

[Alhanelem]

but it really isn't a core game feature. It doesn't have to be a core game feature for the rating to be affected. if there is sex, or violence, or alcohol anywhere in a game, even if it's in some side quest minigame, it will affect the rating.


Marriage is an agreement and a commitment between a man and a woman, god and their society. This statement is currently in dispute across the US and other places, so I do not consider it in discussing this topic. People can get a marriage license and marry without ever saying anything about God, and people who don't believe in god or believe in some other deity can still get married.


A same-sex couple does not procreate.Sometimes I get the feeling that people in general are afraid that GLBT folks will take over the world and become the norm or something. But this simple fact prevents that from happening. Some of them do raise children, but they are never entirely biologically the product of the couple.

[hollowsgrief]

Really? So is that why in many manga there are gays and lesbians? You are aware of the fact that Japan believes in homosexual love, right? This was put to make sure that their consumers for the game are not offended. This way they make money, without having to deal with unnecessary lawsuits and politics about an MMO where lesbians and gays are in it. Besides, it's an online GAME. Get out into the real world if you want to do something with the same sex. You're fussing over the fact that 1's and 0's can't "legally" get digitally married. And you are aware that Japan is a completely different Country, and has entirely different laws, yes? So you saying "Unconstitutional" is completely irrelevant, the U.S. constitution has absolutely nothing to do with them.

[Alhanelem]

You're fussing over the fact that 1's and 0's can't "legally" get digitally married.it's not about the 1s and 0s, it's about the symbolic connection between the people behind those 1s and 0s.

[Alkalinehoe]

/Snip
Amazing post.


It doesn't have to be a core game feature for the rating to be affected. if there is sex, or violence, or alcohol anywhere in a game, even if it's in some side quest minigame, it will affect the rating.

I only said it wasn't a core game feature because the person i was quoting claimed it was. Obviously anything in a game, weather it be obscure or blatant, is subject to ratings. However, to equate gay marriage with a graphic depiction of shooting another person in the head (found in most FPS games and most tend to be M-rated) is extremely childish and depressing.


Really? So is that why in many manga there are gays and lesbians? You are aware of the fact that Japan believes in homosexual love, right? This was put to make sure that their consumers for the game are not offended. This way they make money, without having to deal with unnecessary lawsuits and politics about an MMO where lesbians and gays are in it. Besides, it's an online GAME. Get out into the real world if you want to do something with the same sex.

A game is a game is a game. I wish people would stop pulling out the real life card and actually contribute some worthwhile discussion.


You're fussing over the fact that 1's and 0's can't "legally" get digitally married. And you are aware that Japan is a completely different Country, and has entirely different laws, yes? So you saying "Unconstitutional" is completely irrelevant, the U.S. constitution has absolutely nothing to do with them.
That was the joke.

[Bahamut]

F*x N*ws would have a fielday on same sex marriages in a online video game, I can see the headlines now. Demonic Addictive Online game turning kids into evil gays. Well I say screw them, lets move into the 22 century aready and regonize human rights in all aspects of life, including online videogames.

[Lollerblades]

Oh i'd love this :D
LGBT Weddings ftw \o/ /waves a pride flag

[Alhanelem]

F*x N*wsI see what you did there. :p

Thing is, who watches, or at least who believes, anything they see on Fox, after they fought for and won the legal right to lie on the air?

[Mirage]

More like Faux news, amirite

[Zazhi]

Hmmm, Can Galkas not marry at all? I was under the impression they were considered Male. And it doesn't matter, no one cares about the Galkas.

excuse me ...
... and btw: I am female

[Mirage]

Wouldn't you have liked to marry a hume male, Zazhi?

[Alhanelem]

Can Galkas not marry at all?Galka are treated as male for the purpose of weddings. They can marry any females.

[Alkalinehoe]

Galka are treated as male for the purpose of weddings. They can marry any females.
Thanks, that was my question. :D

So Galkas are considered Male.

[Juri_Licious]

This topic should probably be closed.

[Alkalinehoe]

This topic should probably be closed.

Why is that?

[Xilk]

Really? So is that why in many manga there are gays and lesbians? You are aware of the fact that Japan believes in homosexual love, right? This was put to make sure that their consumers for the game are not offended. This way they make money, without having to deal with unnecessary lawsuits and politics about an MMO where lesbians and gays are in it. Besides, it's an online GAME. Get out into the real world if you want to do something with the same sex. You're fussing over the fact that 1's and 0's can't "legally" get digitally married. And you are aware that Japan is a completely different Country, and has entirely different laws, yes? So you saying "Unconstitutional" is completely irrelevant, the U.S. constitution has absolutely nothing to do with them.

Most homosexual romances in Japan are consumed by a female audience. It is largely presented as a 'more equal romance' that is desired by women in Japan who feel a great divide in equal rights between men and women in relationships in Japan.
The remaining stories are mostly comedies making fun of homosexuality.

Sure the stories are there, but they are like so many teenagers dating someone from the other side of the tracks... they don't often bring them home to meet mom and dad.
Also, it takes very few people to publish an idea. Depending on the presentation more than the content, Masses will pay lip service to it. Very few will internalize and accept it.


A game is a game is a game. I wish people would stop pulling out the real life card and actually contribute some worthwhile discussion.

A game is not just a game any more than a book is just a book or an essay is an essay. The media and ideas you consume or just dwell around shape attitudes, beliefs and choices. It is very naive if this is not understood in online culture. That is why it matters.
Often people live in idealogical microcosms. It could be a small town factory or church. It could be a University. It could be the business executives elite in the downtown metro area. Inside the microcosm it is thought "Well, everyone thinks this way!"
Guess what. Its not true. Sometimes its just the loud ones that no one is arguing with. Sometimes everyone in the microcosm does think the same way... but thats why they are a microcosm. Guess what, every county is a microcosm too. It is surprising to find the beliefs that are held "universally true" (no I"m not refering to religion at all, just life) in once culture and completely opposite from those in another culture.
A mild and safe example that jumps to mind is what I consider a japanese superstition: If you eat too many peanuts, you will get a nosebleed.
Its just a little myth. Plenty of these in any culture, but it surprised me alot while living in Japan. It seemed quite silly to me. However it is quite easily accepted in Japan as a minor medical knowledge.

Same-sex marriage is not about providing freedom for a small group. It is about depriving freedom for a large one.
Individual choices are one thing. Changing laws and policies is quite another. That is when you are imposing will upon others.

[NrvnqsrKhaos]

Same-sex marriage is not about providing freedom for a small group. It is about depriving freedom for a large one.
Individual choices are one thing. Changing laws and policies is quite another. That is when you are imposing will upon others.

How does same sex marriage deprive freedom from anyone? I'm not following this train of thought at all. Making marriage more inclusive does not harm people who are already married, or in the group of people who were alreadyable to get married. No will is imposed upon anyone, because nothing has changed for anyone except gay people.

[NrvnqsrKhaos]

Let's just ignore the trolling messages and focus on the topic at hand, shall we? This thread has somewhat evolved from the original debate of in-game marriages to the larger real life issue, which is probably what makes everyone all passionate. I'm still of the opinion that the in game marriages aren't important enough to implement, nor are they worth the flack the game would get for them.

[Ritsuka]

Hmmm I'd marrie you if i was single lol

[Vraelia]

I totally would like same sex marriages in this game. If this was a poll, I'd vote yes.

[Alhanelem]

Thanks, that was my question. :D

So Galkas are considered Male.
Well, it says in the instruction manual that Galka technically have no gender but are generally treated as male.

[Meyi]

It really is just a game. If you're concerned about having "wedding rings", level goldsmithing up to 28+ and make Silver Rings for one another with your signed names on them.

I'm a male, I play a boy taru. My girlfriend plays a boy taru too. I'm not offended that I can't marry her in game (although it does suck that some events we can't do together, like Valentine's day). It's just a game. I'm much more happy that I can be with her in real life and hold her at night.

That means much more to me than a pixelated ring.

That said, nobody should get their subligar in a bunch over this, because it is just a game. So what if some male Elvaan is chilling in Port Jeuno with a male name embedded in a ring. Does it really matter? Really? Your whole life is ruined? Your religion has been pooped upon? Said person supposedly needs a psycho-analysis now because their pixelated character is in love with another pixelated character that has the same gender symbol as them?

Okay.

[Ragmar]

Xilk for president. Please fix amercia.

[Kailea_Nagisa]

It really is just a game. If you're concerned about having "wedding rings", level goldsmithing up to 28+ and make Silver Rings for one another with your signed names on them.

I'm a male, I play a boy taru. My girlfriend plays a boy taru too. I'm not offended that I can't marry her in game (although it does suck that some events we can't do together, like Valentine's day). It's just a game. I'm much more happy that I can be with her in real life and hold her at night.

That means much more to me than a pixelated ring.

That said, nobody should get their subligar in a bunch over this, because it is just a game. So what if some male Elvaan is chilling in Port Jeuno with a male name embedded in a ring. Does it really matter? Really? Your whole life is ruined? Your religion has been pooped upon? Said person supposedly needs a psycho-analysis now because their pixelated character is in love with another pixelated character that has the same gender symbol as them?

Okay.

its not really about being offended, its more of an annoyance, because there are so many other MMORPGs that offer constricted marriage.

I play as a Mithra myself, and it would be nice, if when I meet the right girl in game, I could marry her.

[Juri_Licious]

The marriage system is very, very, rarely used and there are more players in which are heterosexual.

So, if barely the majority of these users are using this feature to begin with. Why is this so necessary?

Also, if you really care about someone I doubt a piece of paper or pixelated images are going to improve that care at all.

If it does, you're a person too involved in material things to know what love is.

[Jamesruglia]

-The marriage system is inconsequential. Why bother?
-The marriage system is hardly used. Why bother?
-The very notion of "same sex marriage" is itself foreign and contrary to the very point and concept itself.
-After all the slack that people gave polygamists in the late 1800s, you'd be crazy to think that I wouldn't quit this game if they allowed two people of the same sex to go and get wedding bands-as though it's the number two, and not their sexes, that matters. The fact that they just keep it how it is instead of dragging western modern politics into it is one of my favorite features of FF11.
-I know this has become an international game, but the fact is that Square Enix is primarily based in Japan, and in pretty much all of Asia(except Thailand), the whole concept is a null point anyway.

[Andevom]

If you wanna shout your love for (Asexual, mind you) galka crotch in Port Jeuno, go ahead.

The last time I did this in Bastok, I learned how "Lame Deer" got his name.

[Yenrii]

Definitely not the most eloquent way to lay down an argument, but I agree wholeheartedly with the concept. FFXI should allow any two people/characters to marry, regardless of gender. This argument is everywhere.

[Samunai]

I totally want same sex marriages too ;o

yus! i cant marry my boyfriend (who is a mithra too) bc of this -.-'
we do wanna marry, so pls!!!

[Vivik]

I would support same sex marriage but I'm sorry, sex is never the same after marriage.

[Rambus]

you have galka and mithra that presents a problem of trying to have oppsite sex only, that and there is other agurments for doing what the OP has said. that subject I do not want to tuch here.

All am i going to say is i support the OP and hope this can change

[Harpalina]

It really is just a game. If you're concerned about having "wedding rings", level goldsmithing up to 28+ and make Silver Rings for one another with your signed names on them.

I'm a male, I play a boy taru. My girlfriend plays a boy taru too. I'm not offended that I can't marry her in game (although it does suck that some events we can't do together, like Valentine's day). It's just a game. I'm much more happy that I can be with her in real life and hold her at night.

That means much more to me than a pixelated ring.

That said, nobody should get their subligar in a bunch over this, because it is just a game. So what if some male Elvaan is chilling in Port Jeuno with a male name embedded in a ring. Does it really matter? Really? Your whole life is ruined? Your religion has been pooped upon? Said person supposedly needs a psycho-analysis now because their pixelated character is in love with another pixelated character that has the same gender symbol as them?

Okay.

WIN! Ahaha...I must say this entire thread has become so warped and diluted from the original topic at hand. I agree with a bunch of other posters in here, saying that I would love to have gay marriage in game, but I don't think it's going to happen. This topic has been beat around to death since the dawn of marriage in FFXI. Very few people choose to use this service...I've only been to one or two in game weddings since I started in 2004. It's completely irrelevant. Do I think SE would receive extreme backlash by implementing this? Not really. Because FFXI is a dying MMORPG, no matter how many claim how many millions play this game. You don't see noobs in starter cities as much as you used to...SE aren't getting new players daily...and they're doing ANOTHER server merger, which proves that the FFXI population isn't where it used to be. I'm going off on another tangent though. FFXI is just a game, so let people have fun. Leave religion and all the other bullcrap to the side.

[Amerlyn]

In my opinion, you will never truly end this conflict. It just reforms into another conflict. You add in same-sex marriage, you get people complaining about how wrong it is. You don't add it in and you get people complaining about homosexual rights, and it isn't right to be prejudiced. You take away marriage and it will form into a blame game between each side of whose fault it was that it was taken away. As much as I would love to see this conflict go away, I very much doubt it will. Not in our lifetime anyways.

I really wish this conflict would just stay out of game. How many people honestly play this game to hear about real life conflicts and drama? I know I don't. Going off topic and I will most likely start a thread on it. Answer me honestly, Why did any of you start playing this game?

I'll answer first: I joined because I am not only addicted to Final Fantasy games, but b/c I needed an escape from the drama of real life for a short period of time.

[Mirage]

The most insightful reply in this thread so far, congratulations!

[Penance]

I support the OP. The opinions I've seen are how this will influence other people, but no matter how you look at it, even if 2 guys should not marry, it does not make them less gay, and I personally dont hide the fact that I am online.
The ceremony only occurs once ingame and most likely only friends who already know the couple is gay, are invited. If your against it, you just dont go to it, your probably not even going to be invited.

Everyone is different.

[Rosalie]

....really? This is a HUGE issue?

Honestly, the only thing 'lacking' privilege-wise from 'same-sex' marriage in this game anymore is the certificate itself.

GM's don't run the weddings anymore, so everyone's on equal terms ceremony-wise by having your friends perform the ceremonies, the full text for which is now available since ALL WEDDINGS ARE PLAYER-RUN NOW. As for attire, you can have someone show up in dinner hose and the other in a dress/tuxedo if you really wanted. (oh NOES no galkas in dresses.) You can even have the matrimony rings/bands signed for the same gender, just trade the unsigned version (craftable by Goldsmithing) to the person handing it over to the other so they can take a tornado crystal and sign the thing like the Castor/Pollux rings. I have seen this done before, it works.

I really don't see why this NEEDS to be a giant issue in a FANTASY game. An 'official' marriage in the game ONLY gets you a paper to put on the wall, and NOTHING else that can't be obtained otherwise. I can see why you'd complain about the certificate, but I can't see why you're complaining about not having things that are already available to you.

[cidbahamut]

If it's no big deal then why not just change it? It's not like it's hard to remove a boolean variable check from source code.

[Rosalie]

uh... I think you missed my point....

tl;dr version of my previous post:

MARRIAGE (ceremony/rings/gear) for any race/gender combination is already available in the game.

CERTIFICATES for same-sex is the only thing that is not available.

[cidbahamut]

Yeah, but it's a relatively simple thing to fix, so why not do it?

[Rosalie]

Hello Everyone!

Whatever your personal opinions on Same-Sex marriage, both sides can agree that it is a controversial topic world-wide. Because of its controversial nature, Same-Gender marriages are not currently available in Vana'diel in order to ensure the game is rated "T" (or its equivalent) worldwide.

We do appreciate to continue hearing your feedback on this, as policies are ever evolving and do change, and I'd like to add I personally do appreciate everyone that has particpated in this debate without flaming or being offensive, since it can be a very volatile subject. I do hope we can keep the conversation going if possible.

^ this. I think you missed it. (thanks ESRB! >.>; )

[Rambus]

Hello Everyone!

Whatever your personal opinions on Same-Sex marriage, both sides can agree that it is a controversial topic world-wide. Because of its controversial nature, Same-Gender marriages are not currently available in Vana'diel in order to ensure the game is rated "T" (or its equivalent) worldwide.

We do appreciate to continue hearing your feedback on this, as policies are ever evolving and do change, and I'd like to add I personally do appreciate everyone that has particpated in this debate without flaming or being offensive, since it can be a very volatile subject. I do hope we can keep the conversation going if possible.

So.. can someone explain why a girl and a boy getting married gives a different rating then a girl girl or guy guy? seems like the rating system is unfair if that is the case and opens up a new diserbing issue if you ask me

[RaenRyong]

Cat on cat and there isn't full support for this? I am disappoint.

[Rosalie]

At this point, it's really not anything you can argue with from SE, you'd have to go take it up with the ESRB. Have fun with that...

[cidbahamut]

At this point, it's really not anything you can argue with from SE, you'd have to go take it up with the ESRB. Have fun with that...

Well that's pretty stupid, but a better reasoning than straight up homophobia(although really it's just indirect homophobia, but still...).

[Kabel]

I read the first seven pages of this argument before I became discouraged to read the same silly arguments that people have been proposing for decades, even centuries. These are arguments that modern day academia has poked way too many holes in to stand up anymore. Even when homophobia passed proposition 8, it failed. No same-sex marriage in FFXI IS homophobia. I will accept the argument that it is irrelevant to game play, but this still makes it homophobia. Arguing against sexual orientation rights is like arguing against women's or racial rights a few decades ago. You're going to start feeling really stupid really fast.

[Dale]

I think in game weddings should allow two player characters of the same sex to marry. I would like to think SE has gotten a little more progressive as a company when they decided to include two lesbians in Final Fantasy XIII and it would certainly garner some attention to finally break these boundaries. After all, MMOs are about the freedom to explore, why does SE want to cockblock me when I want to explore another guy's crotch. It's unfair. It's unjust. It's unconstitutional. There's nothing wrong if two Galkas or two Mithras want to share their love, but this is coming from a company that feels that a Male Goblin and a Female Hume (What a slut btw) getting it on is more socially acceptable.

So I plead to you, SE. Please remove this unnecessary restriction and let the love flow through you.

P.S. Anyone want to marry me? :D

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).] Let me explain something to you Alkaline, the boundaries of homosexuality was broken back in the B.C., and Final Fantasy 11 is not a good place to explore other men's crotches. Go take a cold shower or watch some gay porn. It's not like the internet doesn't have enough places for you to find men interested in sex, so please - spare me the gay discrimination B.S. You are probably the most well represented minority in the history of mankind.

[Rosalie]

I read the first seven pages of this argument before I became discouraged to read the same silly arguments that people have been proposing for decades, even centuries. These are arguments that modern day academia has poked way too many holes in to stand up anymore. Even when homophobia passed proposition 8, it failed. No same-sex marriage in FFXI IS homophobia. I will accept the argument that it is irrelevant to game play, but this still makes it homophobia. Arguing against sexual orientation rights is like arguing against women's or racial rights a few decades ago. You're going to start feeling really stupid really fast.

...so I guess that means you missed the part where I was explaining just how to perform such ceremonies and obtain all the gear?

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing against it or for it or any which way. I'm just saying that most of the arguments I had seen here were directed at the wrong parties and for the wrong reasons.

Saying you can't have a same-sex marriage in FFXI is just incorrect. Saying you can't get a marriage certificate for a same-sex marriage is correct, and more worth arguing about.

[Alkalinehoe]

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).] Let me explain something to you Alkaline, the boundaries of homosexuality was broken back in the B.C., and Final Fantasy 11 is not a good place to explore other men's crotches. Go take a cold shower or watch some gay porn. It's not like the internet doesn't have enough places for you to find men interested in sex, so please - spare me the gay discrimination B.S. You are probably the most well represented minority in the history of mankind.

How am I broadcasting my sex life? How am I turning this "outlet of public entertainment" into anything it was different before? Straight people have met in game and had relationships, the same with gays in game. Just because we would have equal access to in game opportunities makes you uncomfortable? Who cares about the rest of the internet, to say that we aren't allowed to talk about issues that concern us is absurd. Granted, we haven't gone through quite the same struggles as other minorities (blacks and jews for example) but we have gone through our share of strife. It was only until the second half of the last century (which is only 50 years ago btw) identifying as gay was considered a mental health issue and were often institutionalized in hospitals. The only other option was living a lie and trying to lead a "normal" life and hope every second no one would find out and out you, thus destroying your family, career, credibility, reputation and pretty much anything else. Your internalized homophobia is laughable and I hope you come to terms with whatever you are dealing with and hope you can become tolerant for differences in culture.


[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]
Pretty much this.

[Heady]

After all, MMOs are about the freedom to explore, why does SE want to cockblock me when I want to explore another guy's crotch.But this is coming from a company that feels that a Male Goblin and a Female Hume (What a slut btw) getting it on is more socially acceptable.

This thread should not have continued beyond these idiotic statements.Try to have a little tact next time.

[bishop]

I want to marry my pet.

[Alkalinehoe]

This thread should not have continued beyond these idiotic statements.Try to have a little tact next time.
It's a joke.


Wooooosh.

[Alkalinehoe]

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]


It's a joke.


Wooooosh.


The internet has a zillion different places for you to get in touch with other men who want their crotch explored. I suggest you use them, instead of whining about how you can't marry your current sex toy on a video game.

Basically what i''m saying to you is there are better places for you to be a hoe at.

Again, not like I'm asking for a lot.

[Kabel]

Saying you can't have a same-sex marriage in FFXI is just incorrect. Saying you can't get a marriage certificate for a same-sex marriage is correct, and more worth arguing about.

Saying you can't sit on the bus is incorrect. Saying you can sit only in certain parts of the bus is correct.

Like I said, this argument is irrelevant to game play.

How is arguing the difference between same sex marriage or a marriage certificate worth arguing about at all? Do you know many times this argument has been shot down?

[Kabel]

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

"You people" Do you not understand how destructive and backwards that kind of dichotomic thinking is? It's not like heterosexuality is in every facet of society, oh wait. Maybe he gets tired of hearing about how heterosexual men like having sex with women all the time.

[Vivik]

a built in quota for gay people in every faucet of society.

So, would your faucet run out of gay people at some point or do you mean you have to let out a certain amount of gay people each day?

[Alkalinehoe]

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]
Actually, I'm not really a big fan of pride parades. I like them for that fact that it is a strong message to youths for acceptance, as many questioning youth contemplate suicide or deal with depression, but they are over the top and often, much how like how you are doing, strengthens negative stereotypes many gays try to separate themselves from. But that isn't the topic.

The issue is weather or not SE can/are willing to change the current system to meet the wants of all players. I'm not saying I'm going to quit if they don't make me an emote where i can grab a man's crotch (since you have such a difficulty with sarcasm) but it would be nice to have a feature that's open to a group available to the entirety of the population.

[Kabel]

So, would your faucet run out of gay people at some point or do you mean you have to let out a certain amount of gay people each day?
Ahahahhaha. I wasn't gonna say anything but I think this post captured my thoughts perfectly about that typo.

[Alkalinehoe]

"You people" Do you not understand how destructive and backwards that kind of dichotomic thinking is? It's not like heterosexuality is in every facet of society, oh wait. Maybe he gets tired of hearing about how heterosexual men like having sex with women all the time.
As a gay man, I never tire about hearing how a straight man bangs so many chicks. Such an interesting topic.

[Alkalinehoe]

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]

It's a nickname.... My name is Alkalinejoe, but my an ingame friend called me Alkalinehoe and it kinda stuck (even before they knew i was gay). And geez, it's a joke. Everyone else who has posted in this thread have deduced that. Good thing I know not the entire straight population is this retarded.

[Kabel]

.

Alkaline, you accuse me of strengthening negative steriotypes while you coming onto a video game forum with hoe in your name and fussing about being cockblocked cause you can't explore other men's crotches on the game by marrying them. Think about that and realize you may just be your own worst enemy.

Just like the black author who writes a book "How to make love with a negro without getting tired" is his very own enemy. If you can't see the tact in the satire then that you're own problem.

[Dale]

Just like the black author who writes a book "How to make love with a negro without getting tired" is his very own enemy. If you can't see the tact in the satire then that you're own problem.

yes well I guess i have a problem then, cause i see nothing tactful about hoe's posts :)

And I meant to type facet not faucet, but nothing beats typo humor, another stunning example of your excellent tastes in tact :)

[Yawn]

Squre-Enix ninja-added gay marriage in over a year ago with their automated marriage system. They couldn't just come out and say they added it due to political and social pressure, so they stuck it in and just let people figure it out for themselves. Here is a basic rundown on how to marry someone of the same sex:

Step 1: Get a friend of the opposite gender (your best man or maid of honor or witness or whatever) to buy two rings.
Step 2: Use an HQ earth crystal to sign the rings.
Step 3: Exchange the rings (whether through a ceremony or juat right there at the NPC who acts as a justice of the peace.)
Step 4: Buy your friend a ring.
Step 5: Talk to the NPC one at a time while partied with your friend to get your marriage certificates. Marriage certificates aren't actually signed. They're just furnishings. congratulations! You're married.

As for there being no gay NPCs in FFXI, I direct you to WotG's storyline and numerous ToAU quests; most notably Three Men in the (and the?) Closet. There is a gay Tarutaru in the Windurst Woods Clothcraft guild, as well as the Norg NPC who accepts the avatar items for your summoner ring. Also, the male mithra in the Windurst Waters (S) storyline is openly bisexual.

[Alkalinehoe]

Squre-Enix ninja-added gay marriage in over a year ago with their automated marriage system. They couldn't just come out and say they added it due to political and social pressure, so they stuck it in and just let people figure it out for themselves. Here is a basic rundown on how to marry someone of the same sex:

Step 1: Get a friend of the opposite gender (your best man or maid of honor or witness or whatever) to buy two rings.
Step 2: Use an HQ earth crystal to sign the rings.
Step 3: Exchange the rings (whether through a ceremony or juat right there at the NPC who acts as a justice of the peace.)
Step 4: Buy your friend a ring.
Step 5: Talk to the NPC one at a time while partied with your friend to get your marriage certificates. Marriage certificates aren't actually signed. They're just furnishings. congratulations! You're married.

As for there being no gay NPCs in FFXI, I direct you to WotG's storyline and numerous ToAU quests; most notably Three Men in the (and the?) Closet. There is a gay Tarutaru in the Windurst Woods Clothcraft guild, as well as the Norg NPC who accepts the avatar items for your summoner ring. Also, the male mithra in the Windurst Waters (S) storyline is openly bisexual.

Wow, nice find. Didn't know about this!

[Yawn]

Actually, your history of marriage is completely mistaken. Marriage has historically been, and still remains for most people, a means of gaining wealth, status, and/or power; as well as creating offspring to carry that legacy on ad infinitum. Historically, taking one or more lovers onthe side has been completely acceptable as long as you keep it a secret. That way, you don't dishonor or embarass your spouse. In fact, the concept of monogamy is relatively new. ,Marriage is not even a religious thing. Religions use marriage to their own ends, but marriage itself is all about the above.

As for Asians finding homosexuality (or gay marriage) laughable, that is completely untrue. In most of Asia, homosexuality was often called the purest form of love since it was a love that could not give offspring, wealth, or prestige. In fact, homosexuality was widely accepted throughout even the United States until the end of World War 2.

If, as you say, life is about more than sex you should focus on the idea that gay people just want tax breaks. Marriage, for most of its history, has never had anything at all to do with sexual desire or love. Henry the 8th even created his own religion just so he wouldn't have to keep killing his wives off when they wouldn't give him legitimate male heirs. History is full of people who used marriage AND religion for their own selfish designs. He was not an exception. Just look at the concept of a dowrey. If a woman's family was not wealthy enough she could not marry a man. That was true even for peasants. Publicly, we villify the idea. Our entire history as a race is filled with this ,though.

Modern media has actually changed most people's concepts of love and marriage. Shakespeare and Hollywood have done a lot to romanticize the idea of love over responsiblity to one's family. Perhaps this change in the overall view of marriages as an institution of love is exactly the reason same-sex marriages should be allowed.

[Siros]

Xilk for president. Please fix amercia.

I second that motion.

[Siros]

So, would your faucet run out of gay people at some point or do you mean you have to let out a certain amount of gay people each day?

Nah,we just keep em locked up at the plant were they can roam an graze freely.Government says we cant let out any more they get too wild an rialed up an cause havok... lol. Seriously,im joking,this thread got outta hand fast.

U wanna be gay,fine w/e but plz keep it outta the game....

[Yawn]

A lot of people felt the same way about black people when they were fighting for their own rights. The gay rights movement is actually very similar.

I know. It's terrible to compare the two. It's not like gay people have had to live in hiding for fear of persecution. It's not like thousands of gay people were knowingly used by the millitary then kicked out so they could not accrue retirement benefits. It's not like gay people don't get beaten and sodomized in public bathrooms because they "deserved it." It's not like gay people aren't even allowed to play professional sports openly. It's not like gay people get fired from normal jobs just for being gay.

How dare these people, who are treated like they are less than a straight person; who are beaten to death just for being true to themselves; who cannot gain healthcare or financial benefits for being in long term monogamous relationships, would want to push for equality! Maybe they should riot more, like they did in the 50s and early 60s. They're peacefully protesting everywhere someone will listen.

People have short memories. If they stop talking, no one will remember they are, in fact, being persecuted. Not just because they can't get married, but because in many places they are still persecuted and killed just for being different.

[Rosalie]

Squre-Enix ninja-added gay marriage in over a year ago with their automated marriage system. They couldn't just come out and say they added it due to political and social pressure, so they stuck it in and just let people figure it out for themselves. Here is a basic rundown on how to marry someone of the same sex:

Step 1: Get a friend of the opposite gender (your best man or maid of honor or witness or whatever) to buy two rings.
Step 2: Use an HQ earth crystal to sign the rings.
Step 3: Exchange the rings (whether through a ceremony or juat right there at the NPC who acts as a justice of the peace.)
Step 4: Buy your friend a ring.
Step 5: Talk to the NPC one at a time while partied with your friend to get your marriage certificates. Marriage certificates aren't actually signed. They're just furnishings. congratulations! You're married.

As for there being no gay NPCs in FFXI, I direct you to WotG's storyline and numerous ToAU quests; most notably Three Men in the (and the?) Closet. There is a gay Tarutaru in the Windurst Woods Clothcraft guild, as well as the Norg NPC who accepts the avatar items for your summoner ring. Also, the male mithra in the Windurst Waters (S) storyline is openly bisexual.


And this is exactly what I was talking about earlier, but was ignored when you decided to just apply the 'homophobe' label to me. Hypocritical much?

Additionally, thanks for the info about the certificates being unsigned. With that information, all it would take would be a little manipulation of the system with a couple of opposite-gender Jeuno mules or friends to have EVERYTHING a hetero 'marriage' in-game would have.

[Vivik]

U wanna be gay,fine w/e but plz keep it outta the game....

I don't think anyone "wants" to be gay. It's less of a choice and more of the way you are born. I don't think anyone would choose to be the focus of such hate.
All in all it's less of a gay thing in game and more of a same sex character marriage thing. I know lots of Mithra that are men and it would be nice if they wanted to marry their female GF or wife in game.

[JiltedValkyrie]

I just have to add that I chuckled when I saw one of the first posts say people would be in an uproar if you could get married to the same sex in a game. This is old. Fable, one of the most popular RPG franchises right now, has had gay marriage and gay sexual partners for a long time. Nobody complained. You don't see gay gamers playing a game where there is a heterosexual marriage. It'd be nice to see the day where more straight gamers felt the same about a gay marriage in the future. We'll get there... in time.

[HFX7686]

The amount of homophobia in this thread is staggering.

I don't care if they add same-sex marriage into the game. It won't affect my game play.

[Rubeus]

im surprised this got to page 3 before getting assinine. I'd personally like to see this thread closed for that very reason.

P.S.: I'm gay, I play a male Hume and my boyfriend plays a mithra. So, no, this isn't me being "insensitive." I just don't really need to read all this hate in a game forum.

[Rubeus]

@Xilk: marriage was originally created to serve the purpose of increasing personal family wealth and making countries not go to war with eachother. Then it became the bill of sale of a woman. Now it's a religious thing, which is actually VERY recent. so don't talk about things you don't know about.

Also, samurai had homosexuality and it was very okay. Greeks had it, Romans had it, American Indians had it, and Hindu's had it pre-Gandhi. sooooo stfu. :)

[Rubeus]

Also, one in every 10 people is gay, worldwide, which is true. we are not a minority group. we are here. we've BEEN here. we've helped in YOUR wars, YOUR economy, and YOUR struggles. we have hidden because YOU persecuted us. YOU can now sit down and take a back seat as we ask for our dues.

[Rubeus]

Being gay isn't a sexual deviance. Neither is it "shoving it in anyone's face." this is a suggestion forum, this is the suggestion. It's actually very standard a request. He's not converting people. He's not preaching on the rooftops. But many straight couples in FFXI preach about their husbands and wives etc etc. How is that different from me talking about my boyfriend?

you really need a lesson in being less of a histrionic pissant.

[Rubeus]

omg thank you Sagian, you're my new best friend.

[Rubeus]

@Ilax we only have gay parades because we DON'T have the rights of a straight person, i.e. we cannot get health insurance, make family decisions together, adopt children easily (in some states its next to impossible), get a tax break, etc. If you gave gay people that, and didn't call it marriage, we would be happy I think. If you said, "go buy property together and do your taxes together and everything else marriage entails. P.S. we're calling this Purple Hippopotamus Joint Custody Bill of Sale" we'd still be like OMG THANK YOU and probably wouldn't have parades anymore. :P

just my personal belief.

[Rosalie]

At this point, I wouldn't mind seeing this thread closed either, as it's degenerated from a request to make in-game items and ceremonies that are ALREADY AVAILABLE to ALL types of couples (unless you want to marry your npc whut) slightly more convenient (which, btw, can't be done for political bull**** reasons that are beyond SE's control) into a political argument about sexual preferences and oppression.

I'm just surprised this hasn't turned into a Galkan oppression cryfest already.

Also @Rubeus: (not to be mean, but try editing your post instead of sextuple posting next time?)

[Rubeus]

@Xilk: "marriage is a freedom" "its popular to title things as a right when it's not" "marriage is a privilege" ... hmm.. no. you can't have both. and freedom should belong to everyone, not just who you deem worthy of having it.

Also, the original hebrew bible never mentions homosexuality. soooo again, you're wrong. and Indian culture was very popular with gay relationships before Gandhi destroyed a lot of the evidence, but not all of it. Which is also a fact, btw.

Also, Japan's had christianity since the 1500s. So, how is that not a background?

... @Chrism wow. you really used the earthquake as a reason not to do this. THAT is low. INCREDIBLY low.

@ Rosalie: is this better? ^^ sorry, didn't think of it.

also, LOL @ galkas in dresses and cat on cat, furthermore, it IS just a game and it wouldn't make an OMGHUGE difference but nonetheless.

Yawn and Vivik did all the work for me on explaining how I felt. so, thank you guys.

now if you'll excuse me before this gets 40 pages of DUMB I'm going to RUN AWAY SCREAMING before someone else says something asinine and I feel the intense need to punch them for being a religious zealot, right-wing idiot, troll, or prat. *never reading again*

[Xilk]

Actually, your history of marriage is completely mistaken. Marriage has historically been, and still remains for most people, a means of gaining wealth, status, and/or power; as well as creating offspring to carry that legacy on ad infinitum. Historically, taking one or more lovers onthe side has been completely acceptable as long as you keep it a secret. That way, you don't dishonor or embarass your spouse. In fact, the concept of monogamy is relatively new. ,Marriage is not even a religious thing. Religions use marriage to their own ends, but marriage itself is all about the above.

As for Asians finding homosexuality (or gay marriage) laughable, that is completely untrue. In most of Asia, homosexuality was often called the purest form of love since it was a love that could not give offspring, wealth, or prestige. In fact, homosexuality was widely accepted throughout even the United States until the end of World War 2.

If, as you say, life is about more than sex you should focus on the idea that gay people just want tax breaks. Marriage, for most of its history, has never had anything at all to do with sexual desire or love. Henry the 8th even created his own religion just so he wouldn't have to keep killing his wives off when they wouldn't give him legitimate male heirs. History is full of people who used marriage AND religion for their own selfish designs. He was not an exception. Just look at the concept of a dowrey. If a woman's family was not wealthy enough she could not marry a man. That was true even for peasants. Publicly, we villify the idea. Our entire history as a race is filled with this ,though.

Modern media has actually changed most people's concepts of love and marriage. Shakespeare and Hollywood have done a lot to romanticize the idea of love over responsiblity to one's family. Perhaps this change in the overall view of marriages as an institution of love is exactly the reason same-sex marriages should be allowed.


Wow. a little bit of hyperbole... Sure, there have been economic and political motivations and abuses of marriage for a long time. There are also real economic concerns and demands when it comes to raising a family. In order to have a healthy and safe environment to raise and protect children, you need a certain level of economic protection.

Marriage has been, throughout history, the means of raising a family. This is by far the MOST important, profound, and impacting element of marriage.
Marriage is not easy. Raising children is not easy.
Marriage protects and supports these goals.
It is not JUST economic protection. There is Spiritual and Emotional protection that needs a bond of love between parents to keep a strong and healthy environment to raise children. These are all part of what marriage is.

Same-sex Couples want tax breaks huh? I've already addressed this. This is a political excuse. Tax breaks are offered in the US (I dont' know the tax code in other countries) to married couples because they are in fact providing a great civil service by keeping the customs of the land and raising children within marriage. TAX BREAKS ARE NOT A RIGHT.
Same-sex couples have a weak claim trying to say a same-sex centric family is a better or even just as good environment for child rearing. That would be a social experiment. The burden of proof is in proving the new concept. The stakes of doing so are tremendous.
This is akin to the 'experiment' one US doctor took in the 70s in convincing a couple to raise 1 of their twin sons as a girl after a malpractice circumcision removed the boys genitals. The boy wasn't told the truth until he was 17. Its a horrific story.
This type of experimentation should not be done in my opinion. It infringes upon the freedom of children who have no way to protect themselves.

The real motivations people have are not taxes. They are much more personal. The tax benefits are ok in the US for a married couple, but frankly, they are really not much. they are a drop in a bucket for what it takes to raise kids.
Same-sex couples have some shared experiences. Following romance for the same gender has lost them friends, it has lost them respect in some communities, it has lost them acceptance.
Many other things lose people acceptance into a community. In US culture obesity and hygiene can do it. In FFXI culture, not using haste gear can do it.
For example's sake, let suppose the issue is haste gear in FFXI. Lets suppose there was such an outcry from players who will not swap gear or equip haste that they cry out to SE that they are being unfairly discriminated against. SE as the holders of law throughout Vana'diel actually responds and say Non-haste gear users cannot be discriminated against in making parties for events, exp, etc.
First its ridiculous and not enforceable. Second... what happens when you try to enforce the unenforceable?
Most players would leave the game. Non-haste users would abuse the enforced change in status. Some opportunists would stop using haste in order to join the new special demographic.
or more practically, when you try to kick someone from the party who is trying to steal loot, refuses to help, and they would call a GM and the GM would force them back in the party. The party complains? well they are haters, they are breaking policy, there should be some disciplinary action here. Obviously this has become a repressive and abusive authority.

Freedom is not infinite. We love freedom in our country. It is perhaps the highest ideal that is shared so widely around our populous. Some freedoms are promised to all, but don't be mistaken! Freedom requires responsibility. The more responsibility one can maintain, the more powerful and free to act and choose one can become. The more 'freedom' you try to give to one group or another, you will be taking it away from everyone else. The way to avoid this is to keep freedom's for INDIVIDUALS.
Same-sex couples are already free to live together as they like. Taxes are not nearly reason enough. Just because something is tolerated, does not mean it is accepted. You cannot force acceptance.

[Meyi]

I really like Yawn's posts. :) Thank you, Yawn.

[chrism]

Squre-Enix ninja-added gay marriage in over a year ago with their automated marriage system. They couldn't just come out and say they added it due to political and social pressure, so they stuck it in and just let people figure it out for themselves. Here is a basic rundown on how to marry someone of the same sex:

Step 1: Get a friend of the opposite gender (your best man or maid of honor or witness or whatever) to buy two rings.
Step 2: Use an HQ earth crystal to sign the rings.
Step 3: Exchange the rings (whether through a ceremony or juat right there at the NPC who acts as a justice of the peace.)
Step 4: Buy your friend a ring.
Step 5: Talk to the NPC one at a time while partied with your friend to get your marriage certificates. Marriage certificates aren't actually signed. They're just furnishings. congratulations! You're married.

As for there being no gay NPCs in FFXI, I direct you to WotG's storyline and numerous ToAU quests; most notably Three Men in the (and the?) Closet. There is a gay Tarutaru in the Windurst Woods Clothcraft guild, as well as the Norg NPC who accepts the avatar items for your summoner ring. Also, the male mithra in the Windurst Waters (S) storyline is openly bisexual.






Awh man you shouldn't have told everyone... Now all the trolls have nothing else to feed themselves with :[[[ Poor trollerz, lmao, And I thought I was the only one who knew about this xDDDD

[chrism]

Go outside and discover the real world...


I have the right to complain I pay to play this game tyvm <3

Besides that... wanna get same-sex married? Lmfao

[Xilk]

@Xilk: "marriage is a freedom" "its popular to title things as a right when it's not" "marriage is a privilege" ... hmm.. no. you can't have both. and freedom should belong to everyone, not just who you deem worthy of having it.

Also, the original hebrew bible never mentions homosexuality. soooo again, you're wrong. and Indian culture was very popular with gay relationships before Gandhi destroyed a lot of the evidence, but not all of it. Which is also a fact, btw.

Also, Japan's had christianity since the 1500s. So, how is that not a background?

... @Chrism wow. you really used the earthquake as a reason not to do this. THAT is low. INCREDIBLY low.

@ Rosalie: is this better? ^^ sorry, didn't think of it.

also, LOL @ galkas in dresses and cat on cat, furthermore, it IS just a game and it wouldn't make an OMGHUGE difference but nonetheless.

Yawn and Vivik did all the work for me on explaining how I felt. so, thank you guys.

now if you'll excuse me before this gets 40 pages of DUMB I'm going to RUN AWAY SCREAMING before someone else says something asinine and I feel the intense need to punch them for being a religious zealot, right-wing idiot, troll, or prat. *never reading again*

translation on the end: "I've said a bunch of false, foolish things and I'm going to run away before anyone calls me on them so I can pretend to be above the argument."

Freedom is finite. Asking for all personal freedom is asking for anarchy. People have more freedom because power and freedom grow when we are united. We promise some freedoms to all in our country. This is not a guarentee of all freedoms.

Christianity in Japan at its peek is a small sliver. It does not form the core values, beliefs or customs of the civilization like it does in many nations in the west. the difference is ubiquitous and obvious. Go there sometime or somewhere else. Make a comparative study and 1st hand observation of what things are common amongst humans and what things are common only among cultures.

The Hebrew bible does specifically list homosexuality in many places the mosiac law in exodus for one example... Sodomy is mentioned in Genesis in the practice of the residents of Sodom and Gomorrah for which the practice was named... I don't understand your point here though. My only reference to the bible was as an example that marriage clearly predates Western Civilization. I find it mildly surprising and irritating that someone can persist in ignorance of this.

Freedom comes as a result of choice and how power is exercised. More people united results in more freedom for all. When you break people into groups to separate and distinct them, then they compete for freedom and power. This is simply how it works. Its not even a matter of beliefs or moral judgment.

Marriage entails a great deal of responsibility. with that comes freedom, yes, but also agreement to restriction in freedom. One door opens, another door closes. It is a privilege in that you need to convince someone to marry you. I feel quite privileged when someone gives a gift especially such a gift as the commitment of marriage.

I agreed from the start that this thread would not be a great place. I saw only contention possible to come from it. I don't think it is needed for the game. However, I feel very strongly about this topic and I will not stay silent if the debate is here. I feel a responsibility to give fair response to the issue. If it goes completely uncontested, then readers will have no options by which to judge their beliefs and feelings.

All my arguments in this thread have been against same-sex marriage. I have made no accusations against homosexuality directly. I have also made it quite clear that I do not agree with it. I do not believe it is a good thing. I would not take personal offense at anyone stating they are gay. I do not believe homosexuality is as simple as "born that way". I cannot say it is as simple as a choice either, although this is what I believe is more prevalent. However, our choices form who we are and who we become much more than our natures. Of this, I do not doubt. I do not want to presume to judge why anyone is individually homosexual. I do not have the benefit of omniscience which is prerequisite for a good judgment in such a matter. I am convinced that their are many who are NOT born that way. I am quite confident that there are many who are driven to homosexuality through social pressures. Homosexuality itself however has not been a point of my argument in this forum at all however. It has been about law and same-sex marriage.

Your accusations are exactly what I do not like. "Religious Zealot" , "right-wing idiot"

This tells me you do not look at the ideas. You are applying derogatory labels to "the other side" of the argument. You are reducing it to "my group vs any other group, and forget the details!" Perhaps you have encountered zealots and idiots opposing and offending you. its not exactly rare... You should recognize there are plenty of zealots and idiots on both sides of the argument. They do not help the issue at all. You sound rather zealotous yourself.

Demonizing and name calling are not at all conducive to a meaningful discussion. They only purpose as an attempt to embarrass, shame and ultimately SILENCE your opposition without respecting their right freedom of speech or belief. it is a weasel tactic of one who would deny them such freedom if they could.

A few other posts use the term "Homophobic" for exactly this purpose as well. It is applied to anyone who does not believe homosexuality is right and just as good (read better) than heterosexuality. The term itself tries to be ambiguous by having several levels of meaning and application, none of which quite fit.
One level of meaning is it implies one has an irrational and unexplainable fear of homosexuality.

I do not fear homosexuality. It is not scary.. I find the thought of engaging in homosexual acts rather repulsive, but this is not fear. I believe I could recover from the emotional trauma I believe I would encounter if i participated (willfully or unwillfully) in such an act.

On another level it is used to depict someone as a hater. Someone so full of hate for homosexuals that it overrides all other judgments. Again I cannot feel this applies to me. I have known homosexuals. I do not believe it is the definition of a person. I believe it may be one part of someone's life, and I do not agree with it.

Homophobe is a very derogatory term. It is too broadly applied and it only serves to marginalize and ignore those who do not share a view about homosexuality.

I have consistently argued against same-sex marriage in this thread because I believe it is a real threat to Marriage, freedom and family. I believe it is a destructive thing for our society.

[Xilk]

I have the right to complain I pay to play this game tyvm <3

Besides that... wanna get same-sex married? Lmfao

I feel like quibbling at the moment.

You have the privilege and freedom to complain on this forum because SE allows it for subscribing players.
it is not a right.

[NrvnqsrKhaos]

translation on the end: "I've said a bunch of false, foolish things and I'm going to run away before anyone calls me on them so I can pretend to be above the argument."

Freedom is finite. Asking for all personal freedom is asking for anarchy. People have more freedom because power and freedom grow when we are united. We promise some freedoms to all in our country. This is not a guarentee of all freedoms.

Christianity in Japan at its peek is a small sliver. It does not form the core values, beliefs or customs of the civilization like it does in many nations in the west. the difference is ubiquitous and obvious. Go there sometime or somewhere else. Make a comparative study and 1st hand observation of what things are common amongst humans and what things are common only among cultures.

The Hebrew bible does specifically list homosexuality in many places the mosiac law in exodus for one example... Sodomy is mentioned in Genesis in the practice of the residents of Sodom and Gomorrah for which the practice was named... I don't understand your point here though. My only reference to the bible was as an example that marriage clearly predates Western Civilization. I find it mildly surprising and irritating that someone can persist in ignorance of this.

Freedom comes as a result of choice and how power is exercised. More people united results in more freedom for all. When you break people into groups to separate and distinct them, then they compete for freedom and power. This is simply how it works. Its not even a matter of beliefs or moral judgment.

Marriage entails a great deal of responsibility. with that comes freedom, yes, but also agreement to restriction in freedom. One door opens, another door closes. It is a privilege in that you need to convince someone to marry you. I feel quite privileged when someone gives a gift especially such a gift as the commitment of marriage.

I agreed from the start that this thread would not be a great place. I saw only contention possible to come from it. I don't think it is needed for the game. However, I feel very strongly about this topic and I will not stay silent if the debate is here. I feel a responsibility to give fair response to the issue. If it goes completely uncontested, then readers will have no options by which to judge their beliefs and feelings.

All my arguments in this thread have been against same-sex marriage. I have made no accusations against homosexuality directly. I have also made it quite clear that I do not agree with it. I do not believe it is a good thing. I would not take personal offense at anyone stating they are gay. I do not believe homosexuality is as simple as "born that way". I cannot say it is as simple as a choice either, although this is what I believe is more prevalent. However, our choices form who we are and who we become much more than our natures. Of this, I do not doubt. I do not want to presume to judge why anyone is individually homosexual. I do not have the benefit of omniscience which is prerequisite for a good judgment in such a matter. I am convinced that their are many who are NOT born that way. I am quite confident that there are many who are driven to homosexuality through social pressures. Homosexuality itself however has not been a point of my argument in this forum at all however. It has been about law and same-sex marriage.

Your accusations are exactly what I do not like. "Religious Zealot" , "right-wing idiot"

This tells me you do not look at the ideas. You are applying derogatory labels to "the other side" of the argument. You are reducing it to "my group vs any other group, and forget the details!" Perhaps you have encountered zealots and idiots opposing and offending you. its not exactly rare... You should recognize there are plenty of zealots and idiots on both sides of the argument. They do not help the issue at all. You sound rather zealotous yourself.

Demonizing and name calling are not at all conducive to a meaningful discussion. They only purpose as an attempt to embarrass, shame and ultimately SILENCE your opposition without respecting their right freedom of speech or belief. it is a weasel tactic of one who would deny them such freedom if they could.

A few other posts use the term "Homophobic" for exactly this purpose as well. It is applied to anyone who does not believe homosexuality is right and just as good (read better) than heterosexuality. The term itself tries to be ambiguous by having several levels of meaning and application, none of which quite fit.
One level of meaning is it implies one has an irrational and unexplainable fear of homosexuality.

I do not fear homosexuality. It is not scary.. I find the thought of engaging in homosexual acts rather repulsive, but this is not fear. I believe I could recover from the emotional trauma I believe I would encounter if i participated (willfully or unwillfully) in such an act.

On another level it is used to depict someone as a hater. Someone so full of hate for homosexuals that it overrides all other judgments. Again I cannot feel this applies to me. I have known homosexuals. I do not believe it is the definition of a person. I believe it may be one part of someone's life, and I do not agree with it.

Homophobe is a very derogatory term. It is too broadly applied and it only serves to marginalize and ignore those who do not share a view about homosexuality.

I have consistently argued against same-sex marriage in this thread because I believe it is a real threat to Marriage, freedom and family. I believe it is a destructive thing for our society.

You know, I can't say I disagree with your premise here. People are bloody hypocrites very often; Name calling isn't reserved to those who are in the majority.

I respectfully disagree with your stated purpose of marriage, and it's significance in our society. I also believe that the current economic benefits for marriage are not based on it's usefulness to society, but rather a simple economic tool to be utilized for businesses and governments. I say this because there are many reasons that a couple could not fit the standards you specified for the marriage to be helpful to society: Sterility is a prime example. And yet, sterile straight couples, who cannot produce a family, have those benefits.

But that's really it. I'm honestly getting sick of the name calling of this thread, especially from the "yay to gay" side, because that's really just putting you down on the same level as those "Nay to gay"s you're criticizing. Way to go!

We already answered the actual question of the topic: Same Sex Marriages aren't in the game, but if you reeeeaallly want to marry a person who's the same in-game sex as you, there's a method. End of discussion.

The rest of this junk is just rants. Hell, I've done my own share of ranting. I'm ranting right now!

Peace out, people. I'm done here.

[Xilk]

Peace out, people. I'm done here.

Peace out, NrvnqsrKhaos. You certainly have my respect. You approached the arguments and the ideas consistently and respectfully. Its not an easy thing to do when you have strong feelings for a subject.

[Lollerblades]

ohh this is so LOL ~ People are gay get over yourselves you don't like don't look quite simple. Appreciated if you didn't try to shove synical bullshit down our throats because it's not ethically correct to you.

[Sutaru]

Well, my boyfriend decided to create a Mithra to play thief. He's been playing longer than we've been together and we didn't find out until probably a year or two after I started playing that we couldn't get married. There's no option for a sex change, even though it's not uncommon in other MMOs, and since two avatars of the same gender can't get married, there's nothing we could do. It just kind of sucked.

On the other hand, there is no real benefit to being married, is there?

[Juri_Licious]

On the other hand, there is no real benefit to being married, is there?
There is.

Pixelated Importance Boots 10+ all stats, 10+ all elemental defense, 50% faster walking speed with also, regen and refresh.

And when you die, you don't lose EXP.

[Rosalie]

>.>; nobody actually READS posts anymore do they?

Oh well, I'm done beating this dead horse. Third (or fourth? dunno) time I'm saying it this thread: with only a minor bit of finagling it's quite possible to have a same-sex marriage between avatars with all the non-benefits (i.e. ceremony/gear/furniture/henpecking/cuckolding) of a heterosexual one.

Have fun with your holier-than-thou political arguing~

[Zeroe]

Marriage on a game period, is rather dumb anyways.

But anyways, referring to what the OP wanted.

New weapons or the following, maps, add ons, armor, NPCs or same sex marriages. Hmm....

I'll go with new content.

Lol made me laugh

[Dazusu]

I believe it is a real threat to ... freedom

Hypocrite.

[Kitheren]

I seriously don't see the problem. All a kid has to do these days is turn on a TV and they can see two same-sex people kissing or other such things.

My husband and I met on this game. We are both Mithra. I would love nothing more than to be able to have an in-game wedding with a GM present to make it all official. I would be ecstatic.

[Rambus]

So.. can someone explain why a girl and a boy getting married gives a different rating then a girl girl or guy guy? seems like the rating system is unfair if that is the case and opens up a new diserbing issue if you ask me

anyone that supports this should start a petition to them.. ill sign it or help whoever i can, just not sure how to

[Xensai]

It's unfair. It's unjust. It's unconstitutional.



Fyi in case you didn't know, not only is this game of Japanese origin but also... not every country has this "Constitution" that you are talking about. I'm just sayin

[Avalgida]

Hello Everyone!

This has certainly been a volatile issue ever since marriage services were initially offered. It is wonderful to see that so many of you care a great deal about Vana'diel and there have been many constructive comments in this thread. Unfortunately, it does appear to have shifted from suggestions about the game's environment to real-world matters. As a result, the thread will be closed.

Please remember that lively, relevant debate and discussion about the world of Vana'diel is encouraged. However, respect for your fellow Vana'dielans should always be maintained (especially when you disagree with them).