Level 99 Relics and Empyreans

[Zumi]

SE put in trails for both Ochain and Aegis, Ochain takes 500 of some item for a 99 Ochain, while Aegis takes 1000 of a item.

Assuming the trials will be similar for weapons, so yea looks like we are going to have to collect 1000 of something for a level 99 relic. Sounds like another long grind to me. Relics have had a pretty long initial grind with the currency now we have to grind 1000 items I am guessing probably from voidwatch where else would they put this stuff.

[Leonlionheart]

SE put in trails for both Ochain and Aegis, Ochain takes 500 of some item for a 99 Ochain, while Aegis takes 1000 of a items.

Assuming the trials will be similar for weapons, so yea looks like we are going to have to collect 1000 of something for a level 99 relic. Sounds like another long grind to me. Relics have had a pretty long initial grind with the currency now we have to grind 1000 items I am guessing probably from voidwatch where else would they put this stuff.

Incredibly doubtful that they will be from VW considering that doesn't follow the pattern of relic trials in any way. At the moment it's harder to make a 95 emp than a 95 relic, so unless the 99 version of relic gets a huge power boost, looks like emps will be king forever.

[Seriha]

SE mentioned something about items that could only drop in CoP Dynamis zones with your subjobs locked. I'd consider that a good place to plop Relic trades. Question is, will it be like someone gets 0-5 per run, or maybe as much as 50?

The daily limit on Dynamis is looking more and more unfriendly if they're going to keep slipping requirements into it, though.

[Taint2]

Its going to be a duanting task for both weapons Im sure, probably VW for emps and Dynamis for relics.

Emps and Relics cost about the same but plates are drying up fast on Cerberus. Currency seems pretty stable with all the lowman farming that's going on.

[Atomic_Skull]

I was expecting this and to be honest I don't mind.

[Monchat]

well if the 4 song on daurdabla is true then wow.. but if the +4 song is true on Ghorn then huh... underwhelming? except for ballad.

[Greatguardian]

The only correct answer has always been Harp+Bard for 3 songs at +3 anyways. Level 99 just means it will be 4 songs at +4.

[Babygyrl]

Seriously 1000 of something else relic users have to collect?! that's so unfair.. we have done enough collecting already!! Dynamis is gonna be come swamped in COP zones.. its going to SUCK.. There is going to be a over crowding issue just like with Aby if this turns out to be the case..a few hundred would have be more reasonable! I would rather do 10k Ws's then collect more crap..

[uptempo]

I'm not going to moan about relics getting to collect 1000 of whatever it is as long as the final relic boost is worth it.

@ Leon - I wouldn't be surprised if some empys are king at 99 and some relics are king aswell, as for right now they are simlar to upgrade to 95, but just wait until the next update to see what these final trials are and to see if they add more ways to obtain plates etc.

[Helel]

Incredibly doubtful that they will be from VW considering that doesn't follow the pattern of relic trials in any way. At the moment it's harder to make a 95 emp than a 95 relic, so unless the 99 version of relic gets a huge power boost, looks like emps will be king forever.

Are you joking? What part of the fact that empyreans are harder to make than relics suggests that they are better than relics? That makes absolutely no logical sense. Not to mention the fact that most relics are now superior to empyreans, and some (bow, gun) were always better than empyreans.

[Greatguardian]

Are you joking? What part of the fact that empyreans are harder to make than relics suggests that they are better than relics? That makes absolutely no logical sense. Not to mention the fact that most relics are now superior to empyreans, and some (bow, gun) were always better than empyreans.

lol wat.

Which Relics are those?

If you said Mythics, I'd totally see where you were coming from. Relics? huh. There are some boss ones, but suggesting that "most" relics are better is fairly silly.

[Leonlionheart]

Are you joking? What part of the fact that empyreans are harder to make than relics suggests that they are better than relics? That makes absolutely no logical sense. Not to mention the fact that most relics are now superior to empyreans, and some (bow, gun) were always better than empyreans.

Work = Reward aspect that I believe SE is trying to pursue.

Also, I can count maybe 6 relics that have a chance at beating their empyrean counterparts in a damage aspect. Club, Scythe, Polearm, Dagger(nonstacked), GS(Prime conditions only), and possibly GK(Probably not, but people like to think it's better than Masa.) Even then the difference is slight (other than club and scythe).

Who knows how powerful the 99 Emps or Relics will be? However as of now I'm certain that, at the very least, Kannagi, Almace, Gandiva, Armageddon, Ukonvasara, and Verethragna will still dominate in terms of DPS (only exceptions being, MAYBE, certain Mythics [mainly looking at Conqueror]). Oh, and Ochain is better than Aegis in nearly every way (honestly in mdt+mdb set you shouldn't be taking nearly enough damage to warrant the use of Aegis since WAR and MNK can both survive pretty much every thing there is right now).

[Cljader1]

Relics are better than emps, and some relics are better by FAR! Take Apoc for example have Hidden damage effects (20% double damage), additional effects (blindness), ws special effect (Super Drain), aftermath (Haste) and superior base damage (base damage 154) and most relic have these multiple utilities. Compared to emps which is secondary base damage, ws, aftermath (30% double damage). I have a bunch of emps and they cant compare to relics

[Cljader1]

Oh, and Ochain is better than Aegis in nearly every way (honestly in mdt+mdb set you shouldn't be taking nearly enough damage to warrant the use of Aegis since WAR and MNK can both survive pretty much every thing there is right now).

Aegis 95 is better than Ochain, you do know with aegis a pld can reach -95% magic damage reduction and aegis has a 60% hidden effect block rate against physical attacks not to mention 240 extra damage added to each shield bash. Ochain can block up too 100% of physical attacks but offer no protection against magical attacks. Aegis is superior

[Taint2]

Aegis 95 is better than Ochain, you do know with aegis a pld can reach -95% magic damage reduction and aegis has a 60% hidden effect block rate against physical attacks not to mention 240 extra damage added to each shield bash. Ochain can block up too 100% of physical attacks but offer no protection against magical attacks. Aegis is superior


Doesn't work that way and is not that cut and dry. What is the mob doesn't cast? What is the mob has a nasty TP move? What is you are holding/tanking multiple mobs?

At 90 all of my friends preferred Aegis and 95 most now prefer Ochain.

[Dragonlord]

Aegis 95 is better than Ochain, you do know with aegis a pld can reach -95% magic damage reduction and aegis has a 60% hidden effect block rate against physical attacks not to mention 240 extra damage added to each shield bash. Ochain can block up too 100% of physical attacks but offer no protection against magical attacks. Aegis is superior

Overall -MDT is ~87.5% Can't go past that even with aegis.

[Sparthos]

So can they make heavy metal sources realistic already? Up the rates, you should be getting at least 1 per win.

Buying metals at 100-200k/pc isn't realistic and they will only go higher once 99 hits and people get antsy to push through the trial.

[svengalis]

Seriously 1000 of something else relic users have to collect?! that's so unfair.. we have done enough collecting already!! Dynamis is gonna be come swamped in COP zones.. its going to SUCK.. There is going to be a over crowding issue just like with Aby if this turns out to be the case..a few hundred would have be more reasonable! I would rather do 10k Ws's then collect more crap..

There's only a handful of people who actually do relics so I doubt this will EVER be the case.

[Greatguardian]

Aegis does not have a secret special block rate unless they added it in the 85+ upgrades. That myth was debunked ages ago.

[Leonlionheart]

Relics are better than emps, and some relics are better by FAR! Take Apoc for example have Hidden damage effects (20% double damage), additional effects (blindness), ws special effect (Super Drain), aftermath (Haste) and superior base damage (base damage 154) and most relic have these multiple utilities. Compared to emps which is secondary base damage, ws, aftermath (30% double damage). I have a bunch of emps and they cant compare to relics

I hope your joking.

Ukon literally destroys every single relic by large amounts and is only beaten (probably) by a Ryunohige using perfect aftermath keep up (Bravura only stands a chance during Mighty Strikes, and that's only, what, 1/240'th of the time without ISL/COR 2h). A good Caladbolg beats out Apocalypse in DPS. Almace rapes the life out of Excalibur. Kannagi is so vastly superior to kikoku comparison is silly. Ochain>Aegis, Gandiva>Yoichi, Masa>Amano, Verethragna>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Spharai, Daurdabla>Gjallarhorn(both or ->), Armageddon>Annihilator(though probably not as useful), Hvergelmir(lol)>Claustrum(lololololololololol).

Once you can spike over 4.8k (highest Ukko's Fury I've seen on Kaggen) or 5.2k (highest Victory Smite I've seen on Kaggen), come back and talk to me.

[Atomic_Skull]

Overall -MDT is ~87.5% Can't go past that even with aegis.

Cap on magic damage received reduction is 50%. However Aegis is a special exception which exceeds the cap.

[Atomic_Skull]

Gandiva>Yoichi

Gandiva will get you killed and piss off the rest of your party when you keep pulling the mob away. Yoichi is good not because of damage but because it allows a RNG to actually function.

[Leonlionheart]

Gandiva will get you killed and piss off the rest of your party when you keep pulling the mob away. Yoichi is good not because of damage but because it allows a RNG to actually function.

I'm talking about DPS. Relics are generally better in utility (though if you don't suck you often don't need the utility).

I think Annihilator is probably the best weapon for RNG.

[Dragonlord]

Cap on magic damage received reduction is 50%. However Aegis is a special exception which exceeds the cap.

Actually, -87.5% is the absolute cap a player can have for MDT. -MDT from everything except aegis(gear, atma, shell) is capped at -50%. Aegis, as part of its design, does not count towards this -MDT cap, but as a special source. However, the cap a player can reduce from every source is ~87.5%. So even -50 from gear/shell and -45% from aegis still only works to -87.5%

[Glacont]

As much as I like the Emp sheild, I still feel Aegis has it's place. If I had to choose beween the two lifes-savers it would be relic, in this case.

[Cljader1]

I hope your joking.

Ukon literally destroys every single relic by large amounts and is only beaten (probably) by a Ryunohige using perfect aftermath keep up (Bravura only stands a chance during Mighty Strikes, and that's only, what, 1/240'th of the time without ISL/COR 2h). A good Caladbolg beats out Apocalypse in DPS. Almace rapes the life out of Excalibur. Kannagi is so vastly superior to kikoku comparison is silly. Ochain>Aegis, Gandiva>Yoichi, Masa>Amano, Verethragna>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Spharai, Daurdabla>Gjallarhorn(both or ->), Armageddon>Annihilator(though probably not as useful), Hvergelmir(lol)>Claustrum(lololololololololol).

Once you can spike over 4.8k (highest Ukko's Fury I've seen on Kaggen) or 5.2k (highest Victory Smite I've seen on Kaggen), come back and talk to me.

95 apoc blows caladbolg out the water, caladbolg is trash compared to a apoc or a ragnarok. I'm working on completing my ragnarok right now. Most relics I seen easily beat emps, aegis is better than ochain...I use to listen to these arguments until I started collecting relics myself, I have bunch of emps and working on my 3rd relic. Outside a few emps, relics simply owns emps especially outside abyssea.

[Leonlionheart]

Caladbolg is trash? Suck less.

This is stupid, you're not going to give me any substantial proof to prove your argument. Just saying the same thing over and over again.

Relics are 80% a waste of time.

[Cljader1]

Im sick of testing stuff for people, just do your own test and you'll see which is better assuming you have a bravura, if not then you cant test it at all. I have both the relics and emps, and so do my friends on bismark and it most cases relics win out. To tell you the truth, after I got my first relic I wasn't even interested in emps anymore. Plus how can you say 80% of relics are useless? you cant test them so how would you even know?

[Atomic_Skull]

upgrading Ragnarok instead of Apocalypse

http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/4476/jeanlucpicardfacepalm.jpg

[Cljader1]

http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/4476/jeanlucpicardfacepalm.jpg

That's not a quote from me sir, I already have apoc...why did you even post that!

[Monchat]

I hope your joking.

Ukon literally destroys every single relic by large amounts and is only beaten (probably) by a Ryunohige using perfect aftermath keep up (Bravura only stands a chance during Mighty Strikes, and that's only, what, 1/240'th of the time without ISL/COR 2h). A good Caladbolg beats out Apocalypse in DPS. Almace rapes the life out of Excalibur. Kannagi is so vastly superior to kikoku comparison is silly. Ochain>Aegis, Gandiva>Yoichi, Masa>Amano, Verethragna>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Spharai, Daurdabla>Gjallarhorn(both or ->), Armageddon>Annihilator(though probably not as useful), Hvergelmir(lol)>Claustrum(lololololololololol).

for kanagi/kikoku, mandau/twasthar etc there isnt eactly a competition. Having both doesnt hurt, and one actually should want to have both, at least for dagger. Same for daurdabla versus G horn. At 95 the best is to sing Ghorn>Ghorn>Daur initially, then resing all 3 with Ghorn before they wear off, until the fight is over. At 95 it will be totally awsome to have both: 2 ballads 2 marches with +4 instruments to mages, 2 marches with capped haste+2 minuet with +4 instrumnent for melees.

Your comparison only really makes sense to 1 hander and H2H. For H2H the difference between relic and spharai is not enormous ( 10%).




Once you can spike over 4.8k (highest Ukko's Fury I've seen on Kaggen) or 5.2k (highest Victory Smite I've seen on Kaggen), come back and talk to me.

Highest damage doesnt mean much, its the averag that counts.

[Leonlionheart]

On Pil, Highest Ukko's (for 4 fights) was 3.9k, highest Catastrophe was 2.1k, highest Torcleaver was 2.9k. Lowest Ukko's was 900, lowest Catastrophe was 300, lowest Torcleaver was 800. Average Ukko's was 1.8k, Catastrophe 1.1k, Torcleaver 1.5k.

Kaiten was averaging 600, Gekko was 900.

WAR: 23% (Ukon)
MNK: 25% (Vere)
DRK: 10% (Apoc)
WAR: 19% (Bravura)
SAM: 9% (Amano)(In his defense he was a Taru having to use Polearm in two of the fights for procs)
DRK: 11% (Cala)

Over the course of 4 fights on Pil. Why there were 2 DRKs, I do not know. Although again, these parses are subject to human error and there's no real way to prove "this is better than that" without a mathematician here and I don't know how to do such maths. However in practice, from every single relic I've seen, they are simply not as good. (Vere MNKs are beastly)

Edit:
Im sick of testing stuff for people, just do your own test and you'll see which is better assuming you have a bravura, if not then you cant test it at all. I have both the relics and emps, and so do my friends on bismark and it most cases relics win out. To tell you the truth, after I got my first relic I wasn't even interested in emps anymore. Plus how can you say 80% of relics are useless? you cant test them so how would you even know?

POIDH you don't have anything according to ffxiah.com, sorry broseph.

I've parsed against a Bravura many a time(90Ukon vs. 95 Bravura). As it is closer to Ukon than it was at 90, it's still not as good (only gains ground when people aren't proccing and Ukon has to use PDT heavy sets reducing DPS more than a Bravura would, because of Aftermath) in the long run.

[Cljader1]

On Pil, Highest Ukko's (for 4 fights) was 3.9k, highest Catastrophe was 2.1k, highest Torcleaver was 2.9k. Lowest Ukko's was 900, lowest Catastrophe was 300, lowest Torcleaver was 800. Average Ukko's was 1.8k, Catastrophe 1.1k, Torcleaver 1.5k.

Kaiten was averaging 600, Gekko was 900.


WAR: 23% (Ukon)
MNK: 25% (Vere)
DRK: 10% (Apoc)
WAR: 19% (Bravura)
SAM: 9% (Amano)(In his defense he was a Taru having to use Polearm in two of the fights for procs)
DRK: 11% (Cala)

Over the course of 4 fights on Pil. Why there were 2 DRKs, I do not know. Although again, these parses are subject to human error and there's no real way to prove "this is better than that" without a mathematician here and I don't know how to do such maths. However in practice, from every single relic I've seen, they are simply not as good. (Vere MNKs are beastly)

Edit:

POIDH you don't have anything according to ffxiah.com, sorry broseph.

I've parsed against a Bravura many a time(90Ukon vs. 95 Bravura). As it is closer to Ukon than it was at 90, it's still not as good (only gains ground when people aren't proccing and Ukon has to use PDT heavy sets reducing DPS more than a Bravura would, because of Aftermath) in the long run.

I dont have to put my stuff my on ffxiah just for you and I have one of the most richest most well geared character on bismark, if I did put my stuff on ffxiah it would shut you up

[Monchat]

I dont have to put my stuff my on ffxiah just for you and I have one of the most richest most well geared character on bismark, if I did put my stuff on ffxiah it would shut you up

The richest, but not the most clever, I see. If you are so rich make the best weapon for the best DD (95 ukon or verethragna), not some inferior weapon for a sub par DD ( ragnarok on drk).

[Leonlionheart]

The richest, but not the most clever, I see. If you are so rich make the best weapon for the best DD (95 ukon or verethragna), not some inferior weapon for a sub par DD ( ragnarok on drk).

Tell it like it is

[Cljader1]

The richest, but not the most clever, I see. If you are so rich make the best weapon for the best DD (95 ukon or verethragna), not some inferior weapon for a sub par DD ( ragnarok on drk).

That doesn't make sense I don't play war or mnk I play drk and I already have apoc, what are you trying to say? Why would a make a relic for a job I don't play? Are you even following the discussion? The argument is relics vs emps

[Cljader1]

But you are right about one thing drk is a sub par dd, and war is the best dd, however drk's relics are much much better than its emps

[Greatguardian]

This is the college professor who didn't understand that Souleater acted as a damage multiplier for Blood Weapon, guys.

Come to terms with the fact that he probably doesn't even have a single Emp and proceed to ignore him. He's already posted some amazingly obvious trollbait, eg "If you don't have a Bravura, then you can't test to see if it's better than a Ukonvasara".

Seriously. Guy's a moron. It's probably another one of Urteil's troll-mules, like Hordecore.

[Selzak]

Just spotted Colliex. Gimp NIN sub and wearing full Empyrean gear.

Also, he is wearing an Apoc (somehow), so I guess that's why it's the best weapon.

[uptempo]

Can't be arsed to get into all this but he's right about one thing apoc is drks best weapon. The highest dps weapon for drk is more than likely liberator.

None of it matters anyway 99 is were the real test will come in for all weapons.

[Cljader1]

This is the college professor who didn't understand that Souleater acted as a damage multiplier for Blood Weapon, guys.

Come to terms with the fact that he probably doesn't even have a single Emp and proceed to ignore him. He's already posted some amazingly obvious trollbait, eg "If you don't have a Bravura, then you can't test to see if it's better than a Ukonvasara".

Seriously. Guy's a moron. It's probably another one of Urteil's troll-mules, like Hordecore.

Ha this guy's funny, unlike you I know what I'm talking about and I see the difference between emps and relics...I see you just like to follow me around like a troll...as I said before I have a bunch on emps maybe I'll post my stuff on ffxiah to shut you up but I bet you'll still try to find something to troll about.

I'm getting tired of people saying that emps are better than relics, because in alot cases its not true...It's mainly the people who dont have a relic that are saying this.

[Cljader1]

Just spotted Colliex. Gimp NIN sub and wearing full Empyrean gear.

Also, he is wearing an Apoc (somehow), so I guess that's why it's the best weapon.

I see you examined me, I'm wearing apoc for one reason I had it on because its drk's best weapon. I have Caladbolg and redemption too but they have no comparison to apoc. You have a 95 lvl drk if you cant see that apoc is drk's best weapon you should probably stop talking

[Greatguardian]

Apoc is awesome. Apoc is not the majority of Relics. It's the outlier.

[Cljader1]

What about Amanomurakumo, Aegis, Annihilator, Mandau, Ragnarok??

[Greatguardian]

Aegis is hardly "better" than Ochain. It's far more situational, and the ideal is to have both anyways - with Ochain being much better if you only had one.

Amano and Mandau are also iffy/situational, neither clearly dominating their Empyrean counterpart like so many Empyreans do their Relic equivalents. Annihilator is only better than Armageddon for Ranger, which has two relics and two Empyreans - Gandiva is vastly superior to both if we left that open.

Again, you said "Most", not "A couple".

[Ragni]

Annihilator is better than Armageddon and Gandiva period (RNG). We are not talking about abyssea, because you dont need rng inside abyssea.
I can take out 50% Kaggen's HP without taking hate and that's in 15 mins of fight (that's just small example) :). Also Gandvia RNG getting raped after 2-3 Jishnu's.

[Greatguardian]

It's not the weapon's fault that the wielder gets raped. Annihilator simply has utility alongside its damage. That doesn't make it more powerful. It's just more useful, in that particular case. In terms of damage output, Gandiva destroys Annihilator.

[Cljader1]

Annihilator is only better than Armageddon for Ranger, which has two relics and two Empyreans - Gandiva is vastly superior to both if we left that open.

/sigh.....

[Ragni]

It's not the weapon's fault that the wielder gets raped. Annihilator simply has utility alongside its damage. That doesn't make it more powerful. It's just more useful, in that particular case. In terms of damage output, Gandiva destroys Annihilator.

You are so wrong sir lol. Gandiva is ONLY good for suicide. I can do Coronach every 10 secs for 2k how about Gandiva? You wont beat Annihilator because you will be dead after 3 ws.

[Greatguardian]

You are so wrong sir lol. Gandiva is ONLY good for suicide. I can do Coronach every 10 secs for 2k how about Gandiva? You wont beat Annihilator because you will be dead after 3 ws.

Isn't that exactly what I just said? Annihilator doesn't do more damage. It just takes less hate.

[Ragni]

Outside abyssea Coronach dmg is same or even better than average Jishu's, that's what i noticed on hight tier VW's.

Also who cares about dmg? If you die after 3 WS's your dps is much lower.

Annihilator is still the best weapon for RNG and nothing will beat it ;)

[Greatguardian]

Also who cares about dmg?

Gee, I wonder what this conversation was about before you threw yourself into it without reading.

[Soidisant]

On Pil, Highest Ukko's (for 4 fights) was 3.9k, highest Catastrophe was 2.1k, highest Torcleaver was 2.9k. Lowest Ukko's was 900, lowest Catastrophe was 300, lowest Torcleaver was 800. Average Ukko's was 1.8k, Catastrophe 1.1k, Torcleaver 1.5k.

Kaiten was averaging 600, Gekko was 900.

WAR: 23% (Ukon)
MNK: 25% (Vere)
DRK: 10% (Apoc)
WAR: 19% (Bravura)
SAM: 9% (Amano)(In his defense he was a Taru having to use Polearm in two of the fights for procs)
DRK: 11% (Cala)



Is that a decently geared Apoc? I only ask because it is nowhere near that lopsided when we do Voidwatch. The end result is the same, just not the margins. Unless buffs are skewing it towards the Empys or something.

For what it's worth I personally think Calad will beat Apoc but only if accuracy is not an issue and you can go all out. If either of them are an issue the I'd favor the Apoc. It is a huge amount of accuracy you give up going from Apoc to Calad, you're potentially talking about a 75+ acc drop.

In raw damage terms though, Apoc isn't even the best Relic DRK can use, nevermind the best overall weapon. Sure Cata is a better WS than Scourge but do the gear swaps allow you to make up for the huge crit advantage Ragna has over Apoc? I highly doubt it. Apoc basically needs to be in a scenario where Catastrophe drain is the difference between living and dying for it to be better than Ragnarok.

And Liberator should beat Apoc in raw damage too.

So it's a weird one. In raw damage terms Apoc is probably only the 4th best weapon for DRK. Yet on the flipside it adds more utility to the job than the others and doesn't give up anywhere near as much as the others when you have to play defensively (can be 6 hit with 47% PDT, capped MDT and capped haste). And of course it's rare that you're in the perfect DD'ing scenario which generally favors Apoc too. So despite not being the strongest in terms of raw damage, it's debateably still the best Emp/Relic/Mythic choice for DRK if you could only pick one.

Most importantly though, none of the 5 make DRK a desirable DD choice compared to Ukon/Vere/etc.

[Atomic_Skull]

That's not a quote from me sir, I already have apoc...why did you even post that!

Why do you want Ragnarok if you already have Apocalypse? What are you going to dual wield them?

[Atomic_Skull]

Annihilator is only better than Armageddon for Ranger, which has two relics and two Empyreans - Gandiva is vastly superior to both if we left that open.


An Annihilator RNG will always outparse a Gandiva RNG because they can spam at will and never pull hate while a Gandiva RNG has to either hold back damage or get faceraped. A dead RNG deals no damage so Annihilator wins the parse.


It's not the weapon's fault that the wielder gets raped. Annihilator simply has utility alongside its damage. That doesn't make it more powerful. It's just more useful, in that particular case. In terms of damage output, Gandiva destroys Annihilator.

Which is completely irrelevant because you can never fully utilize that potential. It does not matter if Gandiva can in theory deal higher damage than Annihilator if you can never actually use that potential. Gandiva's DPS is effectively lower than Annihilator in actual use. You're just arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

[Cljader1]

Why do you want Ragnarok if you already have Apocalypse? What are you going to dual wield them?

Three jobs can use the ragnarok, plus I'm interested in how much of an increase there is with "Increase Critical Hits IV"

[Xellith]

Three jobs can use the ragnarok, plus I'm interested in how much of an increase there is with "Increase Critical Hits IV"

test server go

[Cljader1]

test server go

I play on ps2, I have no test server access

[Leonlionheart]

I play on ps2, ...

I've found your problem

[Vizardx]

It should be said, while not the best weapon by far.
Guttler blows Farsha slam out of the water :P

[Leonlionheart]

It should be said, while not the best weapon by far.
Guttler blows Farsha slam out of the water :P

True, but

Aymur or ->

[Zumi]

I have Excalibur and Almace and I found that in non abyssea areas like doing VW Excalibur does surpass Almace in dps.

[Leonlionheart]

I have Excalibur and Almace and I found that in non abyssea areas like doing VW Excalibur does surpass Almace in dps.

This is opposite from about 5 testimonials I've heard from owners of both. Also, I've personally seen an Almace and an Excalibur tanking on one mob before, the Excalibur couldn't hold a candle to the Almace. 95Excal vs 85 Almace.

[Cljader1]

This is opposite from about 5 testimonials I've heard from owners of both. Also, I've personally seen an Almace and an Excalibur tanking on one mob before, the Excalibur couldn't hold a candle to the Almace. 95Excal vs 85 Almace.

Zumi is trying to tell you what he/she has found, its up to you to listen

[Greatguardian]

Excal has already been shown to be mathematically inferior to Almace outside Abyssea a few times on these boards.

[Leonlionheart]

Zumi is trying to tell you what he/she has found, its up to you to listen

I did, and I've found him to be wrong

[Zumi]

You can check my FFXIAH, I really do got both of them. Tried them both on various fights.
http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Phoenix/Zumi

This is Excalibur 95 vs Almace 85. Was doing Jeuno VW today KoR seems to do around 200 more damage on average then CdC. I am getting a lot of 450+ add. damage procs with Excalibur. I switched swords half way through noticed, I did worse almost every time I swapped to Almace.

Working on Alamce 90 though to see if it will preform better then Excalibur.

[Leonlionheart]

Was your WS set up to date?

[hiko]

An Annihilator RNG will always outparse a Gandiva RNG because they can spam at will and never pull hate while a Gandiva RNG has to either hold back damage or get faceraped. A dead RNG deals no damage so Annihilator wins the parse.



Which is completely irrelevant because you can never fully utilize that potential. It does not matter if Gandiva can in theory deal higher damage than Annihilator if you can never actually use that potential. Gandiva's DPS is effectively lower than Annihilator in actual use. You're just arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

because FF is only about big monster and never about killing a lot of lesser monster (einehjar2?, nyzul2 kill all floor? limbus2?) where you wont get hate, you will just kill monster faster.

ang GG already said that anhi has utility

[Amador]

As far as Empyrean's being King of absolutely anything is completely dependent on the job the Empyrean is for and the caliber of player that utilizes the weapon.

Current standing augments made on weapons are unbalanced. They know this, they see it. They have stated that upon Level 99, afterwards balancing will take place between the final trials of these weapons. What I can see is that the thought out the path of Empyreans well, and have been implementing more appeal to Mythics. A strange order.

However, if the balancing is to be taken seriously then it's going to show a lot. In time, at this current stage in the game the hardest weapons to obtain are Mythics and by that right they have gained Occ. Attacks Twice or Thrice at what has been stated to be a 40 40 20 Rate. Which is fairly intense. These weapons also bolster +15% Damage Increase to their respective WS. King's Justice, Drakesbane are amongst two of the most powerful in the Mythic case.

As far as Relic Weapons go their power has been enhanced slightly however, not enough to compensate for some. They still require massive balancing in the aftermath scenario.

The new introduction of After circle has been mentioned, and hopefully that'll be something great and beneficial for all weapons as well as the wielder.

[Insaniac]

This again!? I've decided to make a list. These are just my opinions based on observations, and opinions of owners of both including myself. I'm trying to base this on over all usefulness. Some of these are hard to compare because they can be used by different jobs.

Mandau = Twashtar - Very well balanced weapons at 95.
Ukon > Bravura - Ukon is the clear winner for anyone who has seen both used by competent players.
Rhongomiant > Gungnir - Not a huge win for Rhongo. Both of these weapons are absolutely crushed by Ryunohige
Apocalypse >>> Redemption - Without a doubt Apoc is the ONLY relic that crushes it's emp counterpart
Masa > Amano - On a lot of hard stuff both weapons will probably be using Gekko but Fudo > Kaiten when they do get used.
Caldabolg > Ragnarok - Ragnarok has some hype behind it but scourge is a terrible WS unless stacked with SA.
Verethragna >>> Spharai - VS > enhanced counter.
Almace > Excal - On extremely tough mobs excal could potentially get close but I don't think it could ever win.
Guttler > Farsha - Farsha got screwed with an inexplicable elemental WS.
Kannagi >>> Kikoku - I can't think of a single situation where one would use Kikoku over Kanaggi.
Gambanteinn > Mjolnir - Meh. DD WHM. At least with Gamb you can pop wings in VW for MP. Yagrush is king.
Daurdabla > Gjallarhorn - Gjallarhorn doesn't amount to much but a space saver. A 3rd song is kinda game changing.
Anni = Armageddon - I don't think this should really even be considered. Arma is clearly a COR weapon and Anni is RNG only.
Hvergelmir > Claustrum - Who cares.
Ochain > Aegis - Aegis has it's uses for sure and is an awesome shield but most of the damage most mobs are gonna do to you is physical and Ochain puts a stop to that and turns it into infinite MP.

EDIT: Forgot the bows!

Yoichi > Gandiva - A static enmity WS changes the game for RNG. Gandiva is beast for damage but as mentioned before. You don't do damage while you take a dirt nap.

[Insaniac]

Oh yeah. As far as the OP goes. I agree 100%. If it's some terrible grind to get my Mandau to 99 I will nerd rage so hard it will echo through the heavens. I will RMT my character, buy a plane ticket to Japan, a Hattori Hanzo sword, and a yellow suit. Then I'll take out the devs like they are the Crazy 88. Except since it's the ffxi team it will be the Crazy 4.

[uptempo]

Why wouldn't you want a hard grind for your relics as long as it puts them back to number 1 i welcome a hard grind.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Edit to that list however:

Gungnir > Rhongomiant - at 95 with the hidden damage boost in addition to the defense down effect Gungnir is better than Rhongomiant by not having to rely on a weaker WS to keep up aftermath. both lose to Mythic in overall damage on paper.

Bravura has some utility use for playing defensively but situations like that for War are typically few. Bravura loses a lot less in terms of haste etc. once you start having to swap to DT sets with Ukon.

Brd should have both tbh, you sing 3rd song with Daurdabla then overwrite all 3 with Gjallerhorn.


If the test server update that has 1h relic stats working in offhand goes live Mandau Kikoku and Mjollnir become viable offhand weapons (in terms of DDWhm you'd probably still want to mainhand Mjollnir however).

[Insaniac]

Because I already did my grind 4 years ago and then again when SE gave us crap upgrades for dozens of hours of mindless killing. When I made my relic no one was even talking about 75+ and when I finished I expected that to be the end of it. It's messed up to tell people who thought they were done with a weapon that there is an equally hard or harder grind just to keep the weapon up to date. Every trial on relics and mythics should be something that can be done in a week or less. I also know that they won't do anything drastic enough to them to justify the grind. Most relics will never be #1 again unless they are rebuilt from the ground up and SE will almost certainly NEVER do that.

As far as emps go the HMP stage kinda balances the difficulty between them and relics but it was a total bait and switch. The HMP stage is too much to throw at people who started weapons because they were reasonable to obtain for average players and not just hardcores. I guess the idea is that average players will still have good weapons with the level 90s and the hardcores will go the extra mile and take them to 99 which does make a lot of sense but I imagine that's kind of disheartening for an average player who felt good about finally having top tier gear or even a hardcore that made 2+ emps and now has to stare at inferior level 90s because spending a billion gil on all the plates he needs isn't reasonable.

[Insaniac]

Edit to that list however:

Gungnir > Rhongomiant - at 95 with the hidden damage boost in addition to the defense down effect Gungnir is better than Rhongomiant by not having to rely on a weaker WS to keep up aftermath. both lose to Mythic in overall damage on paper.

Bravura has some utility use for playing defensively but situations like that for War are typically few. Bravura loses a lot less in terms of haste etc. once you start having to swap to DT sets with Ukon.

Brd should have both tbh, you sing 3rd song with Daurdabla then overwrite all 3 with Gjallerhorn.


If the test server update has 1h relic stats working in offhand goes live Mandau Kikoku and Mjollnir become viable offhand weapons.

If you're talking about abyssea then yes Gungnir wins but no one plays DRG in abyssea for anything but exp. Outside for me Camlann's does similar damage to drakes on easy stuff and beats drakes on anything with decent DEF and 30% ODD on all swings beats the crap out of 15% 2.5x damage that can only proc on the first hit of a multi attack. Gungnirs acc does nothing and Rhongos VIT is lovely for jumps. Like I said it's not a huge win for Rhongo but imo it's still a win and at 99 when it's (in theory) AoE shock spikes VS. AoE ODD gungnir is toast.

[Neisan_Quetz]

The new jumps don't have a vit mod iirc, not sure why you're using the old ones. Correct me if I'm wrong but I've seen no evidence for it. I was referring to in or out, if the Acc matters on Drg (rare if at all possible) then Gungnir wins, if the def down procs Gungnir is increasing everyone + the Drg's damage bar angon/BT/Tourb, Gungnir doesn't have to use a Vit modded WS ever and can spam drakes happily.

[Insaniac]

You use old jumps when your wyvern is dead.

Like I said. No one uses goons in abyssea for anything but exp and in EXP what I will usually do is use Camlann's when I have TP and the mob is 50% or less cause it kills it anyway. I might even get enough ODD like that to make up for gungnirs full time 2.5x. I concede that gungnir most likely does come out a little ahead in abyssea.

Gungnir will also proc on top of your angon decreasing every ones damage. The proc will only help you 50% of the time and hurt you the other half.

The VIT mod on Camlann's is a non factor. I sacrifice a total of 7 STR in my Camlann's set over my Drakes set and come out with something like +70 VIT. I know a VIT mod WS sounds bad but the gear options for DRG are very accommodating. Outside Camlann's is a better over all WS and there's no reason not to spam it. The only reason I still use drakes is to solo double light.

[Atoreis]

Ok one important thing. Most thing you say Leon is true BUT at some point you started to believe in something that you never checked. Gandiva is not better than Annihilator and im not talking about utility. Just check their avg WS and dps.

Wrong idea about their damage comes from misleading power of crit for melee. For ranged attack its only +25% to pDIF not +1 to pDIF ( like for melee). So even assuming that you cap ddex on your jishnu and lets say achieve 60% crit rate with it and you pDIF is around 2.0 It will raise 60% of this to 2.5 on crit. Jishnu set have maybe 9% crit damage bonus. Thats:

0.4*2 + 0.6*2.5*1.09= 2.435

compered to Annihilator which has more ratt in set and will be at 2.1 pDIF probably so 16% advantage for Gandiva here from being crit WS.

Lets check fTP and base for them now then:

Jishnu 3.95 60%DEX and 156 base from bow+ammo. Jishnu set has pretty low fSTR2 but I will give it more than it has lets say 15. Lets say 170 DEX (probably also more then it has).

(0.6*0.85*170+156+15)*3.95*2.435= 2471

Now annihilator 40% dex 40% agi. Base is around 170(combined) and at least +60 from equip so 230. Annihilator + Ammo is 176. fSTR2 is much higher in coronach set but lets say its just 25.

(0.4*0.85*230+176+25)*3.2*2.1*1.25(relic boost)= 2343

so around 5.5% advantage for Gandiva (With data favoring Gandiva).

Lets check shooting phase

Gandiva: 4*(156+10)*2.0 damage in 4*580 delay 34.34 dps
Annihilator: 3*(176+15)*2.1 damage in 3*822 delay 29.27 dps

17% advantage for Gandiva which should be tuned opposite by Rapid shot, double shot and Barrage which all favors Annihilator a lot.

Save TP and regain at VW helps Anni more too. Letting it win in WS frequency by around 7%-30%(depends of Miser roll).

In the end Annihilator DPS is at least the same if not better than Gadiva even forgetting about Anni utility.

[Brolic]

On Pil, Highest Ukko's (for 4 fights) was 3.9k, highest Catastrophe was 2.1k, highest Torcleaver was 2.9k. Lowest Ukko's was 900, lowest Catastrophe was 300, lowest Torcleaver was 800. Average Ukko's was 1.8k, Catastrophe 1.1k, Torcleaver 1.5k.

Kaiten was averaging 600, Gekko was 900.

WAR: 23% (Ukon)
MNK: 25% (Vere)
DRK: 10% (Apoc)
WAR: 19% (Bravura)
SAM: 9% (Amano)(In his defense he was a Taru having to use Polearm in two of the fights for procs)
DRK: 11% (Cala)

Over the course of 4 fights on Pil. Why there were 2 DRKs, I do not know. Although again, these parses are subject to human error and there's no real way to prove "this is better than that" without a mathematician here and I don't know how to do such maths. However in practice, from every single relic I've seen, they are simply not as good. (Vere MNKs are beastly)

Edit:

POIDH you don't have anything according to ffxiah.com, sorry broseph.

I've parsed against a Bravura many a time(90Ukon vs. 95 Bravura). As it is closer to Ukon than it was at 90, it's still not as good (only gains ground when people aren't proccing and Ukon has to use PDT heavy sets reducing DPS more than a Bravura would, because of Aftermath) in the long run.


did you parse damage taken, i'm curious to see how the Bravura war stacks up against the Ukkon.

[Urteil]

Doesn't really bother me if warrior has the ability to do the most physical damage.

Its pretty much all the job has, and is a giant MP sink with nothing else to bring in the way of utility, survivability or efficiency outside doing lots and lots of damage.

[Brolic]

Doesn't really bother me if warrior has the ability to do the most physical damage.

Its pretty much all the job has, and is a giant MP sink with nothing else to bring in the way of utility, survivability or efficiency outside doing lots and lots of damage.

When is mp ever an issue though?

[Cowardlybabooon]

Outside of abyssea MP still matters.

[Brolic]

outside of abyssea being voidwatch?between stagger temps, atmacties, spheres and cor, rdm, brd. mp hardly matters? not to the point of needing to shorten the fight

[Dragonlord]

Doesn't really bother me if warrior has the ability to do the most physical damage.

Its pretty much all the job has, and is a giant MP sink with nothing else to bring in the way of utility, survivability or efficiency outside doing lots and lots of damage.

Actually w/ bravura, the added effect from metatron torment allows warriors to maintain capped -pdt and capped haste. It may not be able to touch ukon's dmg, but it is certainly a useful weapon.

Like Quetz said, a dead DD is the worst DD.

[Taint2]

outside of abyssea being voidwatch?between stagger temps, atmacties, spheres and cor, rdm, brd. mp hardly matters? not to the point of needing to shorten the fight


But oustide of Abyssea getting 1 shotted can and does happen, which makes a PDT/MDT set valuable and being able to still do solid damage while in one of those sets is a huge advantage.

[Leonlionheart]

From personal experiance, you don't need more than ~35% PDT to survive in VW. Meaning Chersos Helm(4)+Mekira Meikogeki(12)+Dark Rings(24)+Magma Gauntlets(28)+Mollusca Mantle(32)+Wiglen Gorget(38) is more than enough. Grim Cuirass +1 is probably an upgrade, because you don't really need the 2% PDT (though it's still god for MDT). Either way this leaves you with room for a combination of 21~26% haste on Ukon(depending on if you drop body for grim cuirass and use bullwhip, or drop hands for dusk+1 and keep body). Though not capped it should be enough to still stay on top of DD.

You should still have a OSHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII set for heavy hitting TP moves and obviously a MDT set for spells/magic abilities.

So basically if you're smart, the sentinel effect from Metatron Torment is nothing more than a nicety.

Edit: Also, I've never been one shotted while using said 35% PDT set, unless it was from Death Prophet.

[Atoreis]

From personal experiance, you don't need more than ~35% PDT to survive in VW. Meaning Chersos Helm(4)+Mekira Meikogeki(12)+Dark Rings(24)+Magma Gauntlets(28)+Mollusca Mantle(32)+Wiglen Gorget(38) is more than enough. Grim Cuirass +1 is probably an upgrade, because you don't really need the 2% PDT (though it's still god for MDT). Either way this leaves you with room for a combination of 21~26% haste on Ukon(depending on if you drop body for grim cuirass and use bullwhip, or drop hands for dusk+1 and keep body). Though not capped it should be enough to still stay on top of DD.

You should still have a OSHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII set for heavy hitting TP moves and obviously a MDT set for spells/magic abilities.

So basically if you're smart, the sentinel effect from Metatron Torment is nothing more than a nicety.

Edit: Also, I've never been one shotted while using said 35% PDT set, unless it was from Death Prophet.

You not responded to my post and I'm pretty sure 35% pdt is only enough for mnk to not be one shoted by Deadly Hold but yeah in good ally you wont ever be w/o fanatic on Qilin or you can just seigan when fana down and probably wont get hit but if you would that probably end up one shooting you. Im not sure about Uptala Tp moves too ( I saw Nin got hit for 2200 today) and I have no idea about dmg from Caleano because I only tanked adds there but mages were saying something about random 1500 crit hits (so maybe not one shot but TP move + hit w/o pause between them can happen).

[Urteil]

When is mp ever an issue though?

If you want to cure it is.

[Leonlionheart]

You can get 1 shotted from Deadly Hold in 50% PDT (did 1700 to some DRK), he must've been using berserk and last resort (lol he wasn't /sam) but still.

Also, I've never EVER gotten close to running out of MP WHM/SCH in VW. Generally always over 300, without using sublimation (usually have BRD or RDM or COR in party)

[Atomic_Skull]

because FF is only about big monster and never about killing a lot of lesser monster (einehjar2?, nyzul2 kill all floor? limbus2?) where you wont get hate, you will just kill monster faster.

RNG is completely useless and a waste of a party slot in those scenarios anyway. And you will still piss off everyone when you pull a monster away when you occasionally (every 5-6 mobs) manage to get a Jishnu's off.

[Leonlionheart]

RNG is completely useless and a waste of a party slot in those scenarios anyway. And you will still piss off everyone when you pull a monster away when you occasionally (every 5-6 mobs) manage to get a Jishnu's off.

Kclub+Jishnu's spam or ->

there i fixed your pulling away from the party problem

[Atomic_Skull]

Oh yeah. As far as the OP goes. I agree 100%. If it's some terrible grind to get my Mandau to 99 I will nerd rage so hard it will echo through the heavens. I will RMT my character, buy a plane ticket to Japan, a Hattori Hanzo sword, and a yellow suit. Then I'll take out the devs like they are the Crazy 88. Except since it's the ffxi team it will be the Crazy 4.

An easy upgrade quest basically ensures that relics are going to be second place. I don't mind a hard quest as long as the end result is worth it.

[Atomic_Skull]

Brd should have both tbh, you sing 3rd song with Daurdabla then overwrite all 3 with Gjallerhorn.

4 songs for the lvl 99 version.

[Atomic_Skull]

Jishnu 3.95 60%DEX and 156 base from bow+ammo. Jishnu set has pretty low fSTR2 but I will give it more than it has lets say 15. Lets say 170 DEX (probably also more then it has).


Should be fTP 5.25. Jishnu's Radiance is unique in that it has fTP 1.75 on all three hits.

[Atoreis]

You can get 1 shotted from Deadly Hold in 50% PDT (did 1700 to some DRK), he must've been using berserk and last resort (lol he wasn't /sam) but still.

Also, I've never EVER gotten close to running out of MP WHM/SCH in VW. Generally always over 300, without using sublimation (usually have BRD or RDM or COR in party)

On MNK I got hit for 1590 Hold and was barely on orange HP :P

[Sparthos]

Kclub+Jishnu's spam or ->

there i fixed your pulling away from the party problem

Honestly if your RNG is gonna be up close and personal then it's a waste of a slot and you're better off getting another DD.

RNG is a ranged class useful for procs and ranged battles, it drops like a stone the second you have to sit up close and use a kclub.

[Leonlionheart]

Honestly if your RNG is gonna be up close and personal then it's a waste of a slot and you're better off getting another DD.

RNG is a ranged class useful for procs and ranged battles, it drops like a stone the second you have to sit up close and use a kclub.

Don't look at me, their the one who wants to use it on fodder mobs, where it's completely useless

[Dragonlord]

Should be fTP 5.25. Jishnu's Radiance is unique in that it has fTP 1.75 on all three hits.

Is there any testing proving this? Checked BG and they only had data on the first hit, as far as i read. The only thing i know to work like this are the post-75 blue magic multihit spells.

[Insaniac]

An easy upgrade quest basically ensures that relics are going to be second place. I don't mind a hard quest as long as the end result is worth it.
You can see the stats on the 99 relics and unless they have some outlandish hidden effect almost all of them are still 2nd or 3rd place. SE is never gonna put relics back in 1st place so I would rather just have moderate to easy trials. I wouldn't doubt that all we are getting at 99 is AoE aftermaths which for most relics is junk. Even the better aftermaths will be a joke compared to AoE ODD or OA3. This trial will be a bitch and will likely have us even further behind than we were at 95 so gimme the cake walk trials.

[Atomic_Skull]

Kclub+Jishnu's spam or ->

there i fixed your pulling away from the party problem


Still a waste of a party slot that could go to a WAR or MNK or whatever. RNG is only good on high level mobs, their actual damage is pretty gimpy compared to melees. Not to mention that ranged damage is gimped at melee range.

You would never, ever bring a RNG to the events you mentioned unless if he had no other job.

[Dragonlord]

You can see the stats on the 99 relics and unless they have some outlandish hidden effect almost all of them are still 2nd or 3rd place.

Well they do have a hidden effect. Occasionally deals 2 to 3 times dmg. The amount and proc rate depends on which weapon. We also can't tell how the proc rate increases until relic owners upgrade to the final stage, and they've gotten sizable boosts the past 2 updates.

[Atomic_Skull]

Well they do have a hidden effect. Occasionally deals 2 to 3 times dmg. The amount and proc rate depends on which weapon. We also can't tell how the proc rate increases until relic owners upgrade to the final stage, and they've gotten sizable boosts the past 2 updates.

The relic WS damage boost might also be increased.

[Insaniac]

Well they do have a hidden effect. Occasionally deals 2 to 3 times dmg. The amount and proc rate depends on which weapon. We also can't tell how the proc rate increases until relic owners upgrade to the final stage, and they've gotten sizable boosts the past 2 updates.


I know. I'm saying they would have to add a NEW hidden effect. Most of them would have to be rebuilt from the ground up. Mage relics would need mage stats. Most relics would need entirely new WSs and aftermaths. It does not appear that they have done any of those things.

[Dragonlord]

My point is relics don't need their WS to activate the ODD or OTD. For example if gungnir brings Occ. 2.5x up near 30%, in addition to its 35 acc and higher base dmg, it shatters rhongomiant. Granted rhong is probably the worst melee emp in general, lol.

[Insaniac]

The relic WS damage boost might also be increased. Chances are it won't be. So far they have been upgrading them in stages. The last 2 boosts focused on one global aspect of the weapons. I don't think they would go back and revisit them. They probably changed them to what they believed to be good enough the first time around so that they wouldn't have to spend the man hours changing the same thing again a few months later. I said 2 months ago that they would do something to the aftermaths this update because that was all that's left and that's what it looks like they did. If there is some hidden boost that we aren't seeing it would have to be so insane to merit an HMP level grind that it's something SE would never do in my opinion. SE has never had a concept of effort vs. reward. They believe a large part of the reward is the accomplishment in itself and it has resulted in all types of monumental failures in game design. The mythic system for instance which requires double the work and gil for a usually inferior weapon. Basically my point is... I have played this game long enough to know that just because SE slaps some terrible grind onto relics doesn't mean we will get anything substantial. See 2500 dragon killshots for 3 base damage and 5 attack. I would rather play it safe with an easy trial and just hope they feel like giving us something cool. See 5 attest mob kills for a 25% boost in WS damage.

[Atomic_Skull]

Chances are it won't be. So far they have been upgrading them in stages. The last 2 boosts focused on one global aspect of the weapons. I don't think they would go back and revisit them.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/2528-ATTN-Dev-Comm.-Rep-Relic-Mythic-Weapons-Reborn-Yes-Please-%E3%83%AC%E3%83%AA%E3%83%83%E3%82%AF%E3%81%A8%E3%83%9F%E3%82%B7%E3%83%83%E3%82%AF%E3%81%AE%E5%BC%B7%E5%8C%96?p=145664&viewfull=1#post145664


Concerning relics and mythics, we said that their defining characteristics would be strongly modified and that perhaps additional properties may be added. However, these will be adjustments which will take place when the level cap is 99.

[Insaniac]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/2528-ATTN-Dev-Comm.-Rep-Relic-Mythic-Weapons-Reborn-Yes-Please-%E3%83%AC%E3%83%AA%E3%83%83%E3%82%AF%E3%81%A8%E3%83%9F%E3%82%B7%E3%83%83%E3%82%AF%E3%81%AE%E5%BC%B7%E5%8C%96?p=145664&viewfull=1#post145664
I read that too but I don't see any evidence of it. I'm sure when/if those changes come we will have to do even more trials.

[Leonlionheart]

You can see the stats on the 99 relics and unless they have some outlandish hidden effect almost all of them are still 2nd or 3rd place. SE is never gonna put relics back in 1st place so I would rather just have moderate to easy trials. I wouldn't doubt that all we are getting at 99 is AoE aftermaths which for most relics is junk. Even the better aftermaths will be a joke compared to AoE ODD or OA3. This trial will be a bitch and will likely have us even further behind than we were at 95 so gimme the cake walk trials.

I don't think it's true that the aftermath will be AoE

IIRC the translation on the 85 emps was "After Circle" also, but Aftermath on the true English version.

[Insaniac]

Here's the JP description and google translate of the 3 85 daggers.

Ｄ46 隔176 攻+30 マーシーストローク
追加効果:毒

Ｄ43 隔200
不意打ち&だまし討ち性能アップIII
マンダリクスタッブ
アフターマス:命中+/攻+/時々2回攻撃

Ｄ45 隔176 DEX+10 ルドラストーム
アフターマス:時々2倍撃

Mercy Stroke Attack +30 DMG 176 D46
Additional Effect: Poison

DMG 200 D43
Up III deceptive attack and surprise performance
Manda stub Jobs
Aftermath: Occasionally attacks twice + / + Attack / Accuracy

Rudra 176 DEX +10 DMG Storm D45
Aftermath: sometimes attack twice

As you can see, the Mandau doesn't even mention aftermath and the other 2 translate directly to aftermath.

[Leonlionheart]

Still unlikely.

[Sparthos]

At this point I hope SE is willing to revise the Heavy Metal requirement because frankly the supply isn't there and the droprates are terrible on plates off the top tier mobs. People are noticing Voidwatch is really Ingot/Logwatch and they aren't repeating this content often enough to create a stable market for these items unless you spend the next couple months grinding Dynamis for gil to pay the outrageous prices people want - 98-250k/plate.

For such a large requirement, the least we could get is a 100% rate on Metal from Jeunos and 100% on one metal pouch from Zilarts. It'd be a step above the current fiasco we have going on and would still take players forever and day to complete a single weapon.

[Insaniac]

Still unlikely.
It seems broken for emp/mythic to me too but I can't think of anything else that "Aftercircle" could mean. If it does turn out to be AoE then relics will fall so far behind in usefulness it's pathetic. AoE gear haste for people who's gear haste is already capped? Subtle Blow? I can hear my Kikoku friends Mijin Gakureing in real life already. We'll see what happens I guess but I sense a gigantic FU for relics.

[Atoreis]

I have no idea why ppl think tat aftercircle even if AoE aftermath would be the same as aftermath for person wielding it. It doesnt need super logic to know they wont make aoe 30-50% ODD sphere effect after WS on Empy. It can be something like AoE sphere giving buff to stat based on weapon (for example Ukon giving aoe+20 str, Rhongomiant aoe+20 vit, etc.) Seriously ppl who believe in AoE 30% ODD sounds like they have been playing this game since last week.

[hiko]

It seems broken for emp/mythic to me too but I can't think of anything else that "Aftercircle" could mean. If it does turn out to be AoE then relics will fall so far behind in usefulness it's pathetic. AoE gear haste for people who's gear haste is already capped? Subtle Blow? I can hear my Kikoku friends Mijin Gakureing in real life already. We'll see what happens I guess but I sense a gigantic FU for relics.
disagree here. if aftercycle is aoe aftermath only ONE DD in pt need empy, other play with their relic, get hidden proc+ODD from aftercycle and just outDD the empy if they have a strong base WS (need to not use relic ws to not overwrite the odd )

[Insaniac]

I have no idea why ppl think tat aftercircle even if AoE aftermath would be the same as aftermath for person wielding it. It doesnt need super logic to know they wont make aoe 30-50% ODD sphere effect after WS on Empy. It can be something like AoE sphere giving buff to stat based on weapon (for example Ukon giving aoe+20 str, Rhongomiant aoe+20 vit, etc.) Seriously ppl who believe in AoE 30% ODD sounds like they have been playing this game since last week.

Man you are so right. I don't know how anyone could be so stupid to think that:

"Ukko's Fury"
Aftercircle: Occ. deals double damage

means that after Ukko's Fury you would get a circle of Occ. deals double damage. There's no way a logical mind could come to that kind of conclusion. The clear answer is that it does something that it doesn't even mention.

[Insaniac]

disagree here. if aftercycle is aoe aftermath only ONE DD in pt need empy, other play with their relic, get hidden proc+ODD from aftercycle and just outDD the empy if they have a strong base WS (need to not use relic ws to not overwrite the odd ) I see your point and I thought about that but it doesn't change the fact that the emp is the reason you can make that happen. That's why I said "in usefulness". An emps after circle would be so much more valuable and usefull than a relics and given the choice people would always rather have a 99 emp than a 99 relic in their party. Also as far as aftermaths overwriting, all 3 weapon types aftermath have a different buff ID so in theory they would stack so that's an upside. No doubt if they stack a Relic/Emp/Mythic DD party would be balls to the walls insane but the take it or leave it element of that party is the relic because unless they change the aftermaths drastically they are negligible compared to OA3 and ODD.

[Cljader1]

At this point I hope SE is willing to revise the Heavy Metal requirement because frankly the supply isn't there and the droprates are terrible on plates off the top tier mobs. People are noticing Voidwatch is really Ingot/Logwatch and they aren't repeating this content often enough to create a stable market for these items unless you spend the next couple months grinding Dynamis for gil to pay the outrageous prices people want - 98-250k/plate.

For such a large requirement, the least we could get is a 100% rate on Metal from Jeunos and 100% on one metal pouch from Zilarts. It'd be a step above the current fiasco we have going on and would still take players forever and day to complete a single weapon.

I'm glad SE put in 1500 Heavy Metal requirement, there's to many people running around here with 85 emps who think there big shit. Emps was too easy to get I'm glad SE fixed that, and I hope trails are even tougher for a lvl 99 emp version.

[Atoreis]

Man you are so right. I don't know how anyone could be so stupid to think that:

"Ukko's Fury"
Aftercircle: Occ. deals double damage

means that after Ukko's Fury you would get a circle of Occ. deals double damage. There's no way a logical mind could come to that kind of conclusion. The clear answer is that it does something that it doesn't even mention.

Except that is your translation I have seen like 5 others and few posted by ppl that knows JP a little. In those other translations it was stated that you should read it as aftermath: ODD and aftercircle as separate things.

[Insaniac]

Except that is your translation I have seen like 5 others and few posted by ppl that knows JP a little. In those other translations it was stated that you should read it as aftermath: ODD and aftercircle as separate things.

Really because nowhere in the description does it even say aftermath anymore. How do you read something as separate that does not exist. Such questions have haunted the minds of the worlds greatest thinkers for centuries.

EDIT: I'm not saying aftercircle ODD is written in stone or a fact but don't talk down to people for reading things as they are written.

[Insaniac]

Actually I went back and looked again and it does say aftercircle separately on emps and mythics. So you may be right. I had only looked closely at the relic and ochain descriptions which only say after circle because they never said aftermath in the first place. I apologize.

[Leonlionheart]

ODD for the entire party would be a little... OP

[Atomic_Skull]

disagree here. if aftercycle is aoe aftermath only ONE DD in pt need empy, other play with their relic, get hidden proc+ODD from aftercycle and just outDD the empy if they have a strong base WS (need to not use relic ws to not overwrite the odd )

Unless aftercircle can't overwrite itself 2 or 3 Empyreans would be better than just one because it would ensure full time ODD.


ODD for the entire party would be a little... OP

This may be why the upgrade is so ridiculously hard.

[hiko]

I see your point and I thought about that but it doesn't change the fact that the emp is the reason you can make that happen. That's why I said "in usefulness". An emps after circle would be so much more valuable and usefull than a relics and given the choice people would always rather have a 99 emp than a 99 relic in their party. Also as far as aftermaths overwriting, all 3 weapon types aftermath have a different buff ID so in theory they would stack so that's an upside. No doubt if they stack a Relic/Emp/Mythic DD party would be balls to the walls insane but the take it or leave it element of that party is the relic because unless they change the aftermaths drastically they are negligible compared to OA3 and ODD.
afaik sam have never been able to have 2aftermath active at the same time (and i say sam because it's the only job that can use 2aftermath ws without swap)

[Insaniac]

Yeah but I think it would even be beyond SE to tell people not to use their relic WSs because someone else has a better aftermath. The fact that they have different buff IDs means they can easily stack and I would hope they would.

[hiko]

Actually I went back and looked again and it does say aftercircle separately on emps and mythics. So you may be right. I had only looked closely at the relic and ochain descriptions which only say after circle because they never said aftermath in the first place. I apologize.

problem solved, aftercycle is a new effect, not the ODD

[Cljader1]

Actually I went back and looked again and it does say aftercircle separately on emps and mythics. So you may be right. I had only looked closely at the relic and ochain descriptions which only say after circle because they never said aftermath in the first place. I apologize.

Hmm this is interesting..

[Leonlionheart]

This may be why the upgrade is so ridiculously hard.

Do you realize what would happen if a Emp gave a Relic ODD? Can you even comprehend what would happen if a Mythic gave an Emp it's full aftermath?

You would be able to land 5? hits on Ukko's Fury, doubling it's damage. (Could easily hit 6~10k outside Abyssea. That's 10~15% of AV's HP. With Miser's Roll and Marches you could literally kill AV with 4~5 people in less than a minute.)

[CrAZYVIC]

I play on ps2, I have no test server access

Well i dont want be rude with you.

If you dont parse with regularity your events for check your perfomance, you cant know if you are doing well and how well your LS mates is doing.

Probably your Ukovansara war friend is doing x3 more damage than your apoc drk and you ignore it. Probably you are doing x2 damage with your calabolg and you dont know it.

A tip. Play on pc if you can parse your events and after outparsing yourselft with Apoc/ragnarok/Calabolg, claim which one is better.

Or do some maths for compare all the power this weapons with diferent sets of gear and haste %. Doing maths you can compare all scenarios you want.

The Occ deals double damage and WS damage on "a lot" of empyreal weapons is just too powerfull and overpowered for a simple high base damage weapon or a silly hidden effects without real prouds and serious tests can beat it.

[Insaniac]

I think mythic multi-attack can only proc once on a WS so it would be 5 hits max assuming you DAed on the 2nd swing which is only 1 more swing than is currently possible outside right? I think the true broke-ness of it would be the massive massive DPS increase. Any weapon in a party with a 40/40/20 spread on 1/2/3 attacks and ODD that could proc on all those hits is going to be D-stroying regardless of how much it's WS is doing. I would be interested to see something like a Set bonus + Relic Damage + ODD proc. If the stars aligned a Mandau THF could do an 18x damage attack lol. I'm kinda pumped to find out what after circle actually is now.

[Cljader1]

Well i dont want be rude with you.

If you dont parse with regularity your events for check your perfomance, you cant know if you are doing well and how well your LS mates is doing.

Probably your Ukovansara war friend is doing x3 more damage than your apoc drk and you ignore it. Probably you are doing x2 damage with your calabolg and you dont know it.

A tip. Play on pc if you can parse your events and after outparsing yourselft with Apoc/ragnarok/Calabolg, claim which one is better.

Or do some maths for compare all the power this weapons with diferent sets of gear and haste %. Doing maths you can compare all scenarios you want.

The Occ deals double damage and WS damage on "a lot" of empyreal weapons is just too powerfull and overpowered for a simple high base damage weapon or a silly hidden effects without real prouds and serious tests can beat it.

Well a drk is not out parsing a war with ukon, war is king...however my drk with apoc will out parse a caladbolg drk any day of the week. I have apoc, caladbolg and redemption and apoc is king by far in terms of damage and utility and its not even close I have the weapons and tested them myself.

[Glacont]

Well a drk is not out parsing a war with ukon, war is king...however my drk with apoc will out parse a caladbolg drk any day of the week. I have apoc, caladbolg and redemption and apoc is king by far in terms of damage and utility and its not even close I have the weapons and tested them myself.

I don't doubt your words, but can you provide numbers as to how each DRK weapon stands up to another? I am curious.

[Atoreis]

Well i dont want be rude with you.

If you dont parse with regularity your events for check your perfomance, you cant know if you are doing well and how well your LS mates is doing.

Probably your Ukovansara war friend is doing x3 more damage than your apoc drk and you ignore it. Probably you are doing x2 damage with your calabolg and you dont know it.

A tip. Play on pc if you can parse your events and after outparsing yourselft with Apoc/ragnarok/Calabolg, claim which one is better.

Or do some maths for compare all the power this weapons with diferent sets of gear and haste %. Doing maths you can compare all scenarios you want.

The Occ deals double damage and WS damage on "a lot" of empyreal weapons is just too powerfull and overpowered for a simple high base damage weapon or a silly hidden effects without real prouds and serious tests can beat it.

Well Cljader1 is very wrong on most of his claims but he might be right about Apoc and Cala. Apoc has much higher acc/att in it's set. 5hit Apoc has also around 25% better WS frequency. They are very close to each other on dmg and only assuming Cala is at acc cap (and it might not be sometimes).

About Ukon vs Cata. Only parsed something like this on qilin. One time when WAR (ukon90) went full out (didnt need to make any stagger with other weapon so only Ukko's furry from start to end) I was at 22% and War at 26.5%. I atm waiting for e body abj so I use full af3+2 for now (tho its possible thats my set is actually better than 5 hit Ebody because of regain and save tp). So yeah Ukon WAR is around 30% better on pure dmg assuming zerg (less if WAR need to play save and will lose aftermath for some time) but nowhere near "x3" dmg.

[CrAZYVIC]

Well a drk is not out parsing a war with ukon, war is king...however my drk with apoc will out parse a caladbolg drk any day of the week. I have apoc, caladbolg and redemption and apoc is king by far in terms of damage and utility and its not even close I have the weapons and tested them myself.

Im glad you tested they already. My suggestion still there try move if you can PC. You cant imagine the fun and exciting is parse your evens vs your friends and this will be a good chance for you test all your weapons in diferent scenarios. This will increase your perfomance a lot.

[CrAZYVIC]

Well Cljader1 is very wrong on most of his claims but he might be right about Apoc and Cala. Apoc has much higher acc/att in it's set. 5hit Apoc has also around 25% better WS frequency. They are very close to each other on dmg and only assuming Cala is at acc cap (and it might not be sometimes).

About Ukon vs Cata. Only parsed something like this on qilin. One time when WAR (ukon90) went full out (didnt need to make any stagger with other weapon so only Ukko's furry from start to end) I was at 22% and War at 26.5%. I atm waiting for e body abj so I use full af3+2 for now (tho its possible thats my set is actually better than 5 hit Ebody because of regain and save tp). So yeah Ukon WAR is around 30% better on pure dmg assuming zerg (less if WAR need to play save and will lose aftermath for some time) but nowhere near "x3" dmg.

I was just giving a example talking x3 damage. I dont wish start a discuss this job vs this job but.

Warior only in abbysea and zerg situations like zerging AV or mobs very strong is unbeateable.

But in Einherjar, VW, Dynamis and limbus Warrior is just a solid DD. Not invencible or imposible outparse. I believe you was near in that parse.

The only oportunity i haved parsing vs a ukovansara war. Was in a random /shout dynamis. We did Dynamis bastok, i was using My Fudo Sam, and i outparsed him for a great margin not was even close.

I dont know if Ukkos fury work like the others Multi hit WS only take the remain HP from a mob, this make him end with 140 - 160% tp often. With Fudo i can still pop a WS at 10% mob hp and put 2700 damage.

Soon my LS will have a Good Ukovansara war i will have the chance see a good warrior in action

[Rie]

I'm not an expert on parsing, but Dynamis is generally not the best place to do so I think? Especially if it was after the update, where most of the time you're trying to proc rather than do max damgage, or before update, where if you were a second or two slow to engage, the mob would be dead by the time you'd drawn your weapon. Either way, I don't think you can get a fair parse in Dynamis... Just my two øre.

[CrAZYVIC]

I'm not an expert on parsing, but Dynamis is generally not the best place to do so I think? Especially if it was after the update, where most of the time you're trying to proc rather than do max damgage, or before update, where if you were a second or two slow to engage, the mob would be dead by the time you'd drawn your weapon. Either way, I don't think you can get a fair parse in Dynamis... Just my two øre.

This was a random group shout was 9 people x2 WHM. SAM, WAR, PLD, DRG, THF, BLM and RDM/BLM. Was a run hunting AC Only, not NMS and not the win, all they wanted was JA procs and WS procs.

I ended with 27 Coins we splited it /9. I dont know if 243 Coins is a decent amount for 9 people.

Actualy dynamis is one of my favorite events for parse. Is a very intense battlefield and fight 2 hours vs massive amount of mobs is fun, another note i warned all this guys about the parse and they acepted glady.

I forget add. I remember at lv 75 when 30 players assist 1 only pld -_- this was super weird and was almost imposible hit the mob. This problem was solved making several /assist persons in the past

LOL the PLD actualy say /assist me but nobody listen him ><. Everyone was attacking the mobs in the order they want, this caused a few deaths, the monks, ninjas and rangers mobs killed a few times the people.

[Rie]

JA procs and WS procs still take away from how you'd play the job if you weren't trying to proc the mobs, at least that's how it is for me. I don't often spam box step and Animated Flourish on THF elsewhere, or Aeolian Edge with Twashtar much outside Dynamis (inb4 AE burns, I use BLU for burns) :p

[CrAZYVIC]

JA procs and WS procs still take away from how you'd play the job if you weren't trying to proc the mobs, at least that's how it is for me. I don't often spam box step and Animated Flourish on THF elsewhere, or Aeolian Edge with Twashtar much outside Dynamis (inb4 AE burns, I use BLU for burns) :p

Yeah "We were not trying proc". lol we only was focus in kill like possesed people. Only 1 of our mages was saying Now Is time for JA procs Now is time for WS proc, and we did the classic Voke in the time Ja procs ROFL and when was WS proc well... poor mob was dying in seconds

[Taint2]

afaik sam have never been able to have 2aftermath active at the same time (and i say sam because it's the only job that can use 2aftermath ws without swap)


I have Masa and Yoichi, you are correct. You can only have 1 AM up at a time and Relic AM over writes Emp AM, but Emp AM does not over write Relic AM.

[Sparthos]

I'm glad SE put in 1500 Heavy Metal requirement, there's to many people running around here with 85 emps who think there big shit. Emps was too easy to get I'm glad SE fixed that, and I hope trails are even tougher for a lvl 99 emp version.

Except there is nothing "challenging" about farming gil like to get an upgrade and the laziness in its implementation licks of arbitrary roadblocks designed to placate people who cried about the ease of Emps while simultaneously undercutting the appeal of Empyreans for 90% of people.

Congratulations, you managed to farm more gil than it takes to build a relic? Seriously, the magian trials involving killing VNMs X number of times is more challenging than what amounts to a surprise gil investment where they previously was none.

But who am I kidding, lets add an Alexandrite-type stage to Empyreans and pretend its such an intense challenge designed to test players skills with their weapons.

A 'clear all Shami BCNMs' requirement would have been more challenging than this heavy metal plate middle finger to the playerbase. The public has spoken: People rather quit FFXI than go back to insanity grinds and perhaps it's time SE gets with the program and discontinue this path back to FFXI circa 2007.

On my server you're lucky to find pug shouts for Voidwatch outside the weekends because its not worth the time invested by any stretch of the imagination.

[uptempo]

Edit ////

Actually stuff it sick of aruging about empys and relics, lets see what happens at 99. Mythics can be on top for all care afterall they are the hardest by far to make.

[Sparthos]

It's true in a sense what he said since certain people got empys they think they are great it's really laughable terrible players who got a easy to make 85 empy.

Complete joke to even suggest the vnm stage of empys is hard, empys are a utter joke to get to 85 were they get good.

So making getting a 99 Emp a task that rivals getting a relic weapon evens the playing field? Sorry guys, the barn doors were opened, the horses bolted and no amount of posturing is going to change the fact that Emps are weapons anyone could get and that with the attached weaponskills, you've got a potent weapon at 85 alone.

All this Heavy Metal stage did to XI was drive players to quit when they caught wind that the old ways were coming back to town. Even during the height of grind fantasy XI you had good players with relics and completely pants on head players with relics thusly pointing out that difficulty has nothing to do with who winds up with the end results when it boils down to simply accruing X amount of gil to clear the stage.

Which is why I pointed out a Shami orb requirement would have been superior as it requires clearing capped BCNMs which retain some "old world" difficulty while also encouraging individuals to do something which is currently all but dead. You can't just fist your way through the trials by throwing gil at it and that is you know... the point of creating trials in the first place.

You guys can keep thinking that this will weed out bad players though. I pointed out the VNM stage was more "difficult" than plates because it at least the NMs attempted to put players against challenging enemies for a reward whereas these plate trials just encourage gilbuying as the NMs attached don't even drop plates at a fair rate.

20mins for 0-1 plates at best? I can feel the challenge running through my veins. It feels like a bowel movement on part of SE.

[uptempo]

Don't get me wrong i think the heavy plates stage is silly and i'm hopeing next update they increase the drop rate by far. All i'm sick of is certain people who get empys then suddenly hate on relic holders some people have been doing this for close to a year now, i'm just sick of it.

[Cljader1]

So making getting a 99 Emp a task that rivals getting a relic weapon evens the playing field? Sorry guys, the barn doors were opened, the horses bolted and no amount of posturing is going to change the fact that Emps are weapons anyone could get and that with the attached weaponskills, you've got a potent weapon at 85 alone.

All this Heavy Metal stage did to XI was drive players to quit when they caught wind that the old ways were coming back to town. Even during the height of grind fantasy XI you had good players with relics and completely pants on head players with relics thusly pointing out that difficulty has nothing to do with who winds up with the end results when it boils down to simply accruing X amount of gil to clear the stage.

Which is why I pointed out a Shami orb requirement would have been superior as it requires clearing capped BCNMs which retain some "old world" difficulty while also encouraging individuals to do something which is currently all but dead. You can't just fist your way through the trials by throwing gil at it and that is you know... the point of creating trials in the first place.

You guys can keep thinking that this will weed out bad players though. I pointed out the VNM stage was more "difficult" than plates because it at least the NMs attempted to put players against challenging enemies for a reward whereas these plate trials just encourage gilbuying as the NMs attached don't even drop plates at a fair rate.

20mins for 0-1 plates at best? I can feel the challenge running through my veins. It feels like a bowel movement on part of SE.

So your just going to take your ball and go home just because SE cut easy mode off? SE did not intend for these many players to have emps, actually your probably lucky easy mode continued until lvl 90. Stop complaining about the heavy plate requirement and prepare yourself for old school end game play and get your application ready and submit it to a voidwatch linkshell.

[Taint2]

So your just going to take your ball and go home just because SE cut easy mode off? SE did not intend for these many players to have emps, actually your probably lucky easy mode continued until lvl 90. Stop complaining about the heavy plate requirement and prepare yourself for old school end game play and get your application ready and submit it to a voidwatch linkshell.


VW LSs last as long as people need the drops. I'm working on Plates (more like gil but the goal is plates) and its hard to get excited about fighting Qilin for the 100th time now that I've gotten the gorget, boots and NQ dagger. All I need is the plates but the chances of getting a pouch are 1/9 for a capped run. Its even harder for the other 2 sky VWs because they are more of an effort with a side of wipe. Jueno NMs aren't for plate farming.

I'm banking on all this changing with the VW update making pouches more common or adding a higher tier of pouches like Salvage.

[Leonlionheart]

So your just going to take your ball and go home just because SE cut easy mode off? SE did not intend for these many players to have emps, actually your probably lucky easy mode continued until lvl 90. Stop complaining about the heavy plate requirement and prepare yourself for old school end game play and get your application ready and submit it to a voidwatch linkshell.

lol voidwatch isn't even close to oldschool ffxi. It's reminiscent of Abyssea in how easy it is, but you just NEED 18 people. You can lowman pretty much everything, but without procs whats the point?

Heavy Metal Plates are just a grind. Time Sinks so that SE can get you to play for longer. It might even be worth it if there was a noticable difference between 90-95, though I'm sure there will be a difference between 90 and 99 (just because of base damage). Still, I think the 90 version of many emps will beat their 99 relic counterparts.

[Greatguardian]

Nidhogg was harder than Voidwatch? Or what fight in particular are you referencing in terms of Old v New? Because old FFXI sure as hell wasn't that hard, either. PW and AV were just giant "Screw You"s to the playerbase. Everything else was a matter of repetition, claiming, and grinding out popsets.

[Ophannus]

Nobody said you HAD to upgrade your relic/mythic/empyreans. Those weapons are the strongest weapons in the game at the level 85 version. 90-99 versions are icing on the cake and should be hard as hell to improve. 85 emps/mythics are better than any HNM/VNM/Crafted weapon you can get, improving them past that ought to be hard since theyre ALREADY the best.

[Sparthos]

So your just going to take your ball and go home just because SE cut easy mode off? SE did not intend for these many players to have emps, actually your probably lucky easy mode continued until lvl 90. Stop complaining about the heavy plate requirement and prepare yourself for old school end game play and get your application ready and submit it to a voidwatch linkshell.

People aren't going to go backwards after seeing how fun systems like Abyssea could be. Though I was a vocal opponent of cheapbrews/Apoc, SE is effectively decapitating this game if they believe that people are going to go from Abyssea back to Kings style infinite grinds for minimal upgrades.

Subs have already taken a hit and Voidwatch enthusiasm has already started to fade yet this is supposed to be the premier (read: only) content worth doing right now? That speaks volumes in itself.

The new Dynamis? Arch NMs have crap for loot, Arch MBs require huge currency sacrifices for subpar/trash/novelty loot. Walk of Echoes? I heard you like Logs and Ores so I put them in treasure chests for you to enjoy forever.

I've had my fair share of challenges within XI but this simply is a road to destroying the game again. You may think stupid plate requirements is fun but people are quitting because 30min voidwatches for 0-1 plate is a huge waste of freakin' time.

When Jeuno is silent on Saturday/Sundays, you know something is wrong and it isn't Skyrim/MW3 causing it.

[Unctgtg]

It is all just a time sink until ffxiv version 2 comes out next year

[Atomic_Skull]

On my server you're lucky to find pug shouts for Voidwatch outside the weekends because its not worth the time invested by any stretch of the imagination.

Why would you do VW with a pickup?

[Sparthos]

Why would you do VW with a pickup?

Why wouldn't you? Who has 18 people just idly sitting in LS these days?

It's pretty obvious VW is supposed to be done in PUGs for the normal player.

[Cljader1]

Why wouldn't you? Who has 18 people just idly sitting in LS these days?

It's pretty obvious VW is supposed to be done in PUGs for the normal player.

I'm in 2 voidwatch linkshells, surely you can find one

[Insaniac]

Why join a VW linkshell when PUG VW groups usually go fine on our server? A VW only shell is even more pointless than an all encompassing endgame shell. Afaik there aren't any VW shells on our server anyway.

[Greatguardian]

I lead a VW-only shell on the weekends. It's handy. Saves time since we don't have to look for people, or sift through pickup garbage. We enjoy the event, too. It's a lot of fun dicking around on vent while doing it.

[Raksha]

Why wouldn't you? Who has 18 people just idly sitting in LS these days?


*cough*Anduril*cough*

You should join us.

Though, we don't generally do a lot of plate mobs.



Why join a VW linkshell when PUG VW groups usually go fine on our server? A VW only shell is even more pointless than an all encompassing endgame shell. Afaik there aren't any VW shells on our server anyway.

Haters be hatin'.

[Insaniac]

Haters be hatin'.
Who am I hating on? =P Anduril isn't VW only. I'm in Emi and we run VW nights but I'm fully aware that I would probably get more done without being tied down to events that cater to the needs of the many and not the needs of the few (me). But I stick around because I enjoy the company and there's people in the shell that I enjoy helping. That's really the only function of an "endgame shell" anymore imo. You get stuff done together. It's slower but maybe you have more fun. The people who are really really concerned with finishing things at epeen speeds roll in groups of 3-4 characters played by 1-2 people.

[Raksha]

Who am I hating on? =P Anduril isn't VW only. I'm in Emi and we run VW nights but I'm fully aware that I would probably get more done without being tied down to events that cater to the needs of the many and not the needs of the few (me). But I stick around because I enjoy the company and there's people in the shell that I enjoy helping. That's really the only function of an "endgame shell" anymore imo. You get stuff done together. It's slower but maybe you have more fun. The people who are really really concerned with finishing things at epeen speeds roll in groups of 3-4 characters played by 1-2 people.

Sure, for now anyway.

IIRC you guys were one of, if not THE first NA ls on our server to kill AV. You do that with two people dual boxing?

[Insaniac]

No but that guy that DBs JoL pop sets and does shout groups has killed about 10x as many AVs in the past 6 months as we have and has absolutely banked and paid for multiple relics for himself. That wouldn't have been possible at level 80 when we first killed it but I'm talking about now. Practically everything an LS can do for a person they can do for themselves or with a very small group of friends a lot faster these days. If I only want a select few pieces from VW which is the case for most people then it makes much more sense for me to just build shout groups so I can do the NMs I care about over and over and then move on instantly when I get the drop I want instead of cycling mobs that drop nothing I want for the sake of other people in an LS.

I'm not anti-LS at all. I've been in one endgame shell or another since 2004ish and I have always enjoyed my time with them more than lone wolfing. Really what I said was in response to what's his face acting like doing PUG VW was stupid when it makes more sense as long as you're winning. That's just the way SE has been building the game for the past year or so. I think they actually expected 14 to destroy all the big LSs so they started making content that was friendly to low man and PUGs. It became a self fulfilling prophecy.

[hiko]

Who am I hating on? =P Anduril isn't VW only. I'm in Emi and we run VW nights
and you say their is no shell that do VW and you are force'd to do pick ups?


but I'm fully aware that I would probably get more done without being tied down to events that cater to the needs of the many and not the needs of the few (me).
/sh also catter to the need of the many since you'll get faster answer and sea more /sh for those.
you can spend one night without gathering people for the fight you want because people /sh for other fightthat interest other more.


But I stick around because I enjoy the company and there's people in the shell that I enjoy helping. That's really the only function of an "endgame shell" anymore imo. You get stuff done together. It's slower but maybe you have more fun.
only reason I still play FFXI : having fun with people i enjoy playing with.
+ i dont play a lot and when i log i like to know that i will be doing something soon and not need to wait for pug to be built


The people who are really really concerned with finishing things at epeen speeds roll in groups of 3-4 characters played by 1-2 people.
dont think that works well for VW equipment farming (for plate farming they just farm currency to buy their plate)

so you said that VW is better done in pug, that their is no LS that do VW then you do VW with your shells....

[Insaniac]

I said there is no VW specific shell that I know of. My LS does VW 2 nights a week. English doesn't seem like your first language so maybe you just didn't understand that. The rest of the days we do things that make a little more sense for an LS to do. I really don't know why this argument is happening. If you want to do a ton of VW on my server there is no 7 day a week VW shell that I know of at least. So on my server if you wanna focus on specific VW gear you have to do PUGs groups. Even if there was a 7 day a week VW group on my server and I wanted to do VW 7 days a week I would still do PUGs because I could focus on only the mobs I want instead of getting people clears and doing mobs that don't drop anything I want. If someone does have a shell that does VW occasionally what is the harm in joining a PUG that is doing the mob you want when you have nothing better to do? What are we arguing about?

[hiko]

we are arguing about you saying pug is the best way to do VW while you do it with your shells! and totally don't care that your LS also do other things :when you do other things you dont do pug VW!

I never said pug was bad nor that VW LS was better but both have reason to exist.LS being VWonly or VW+other stuff dont really matter
I prefer LS because i dont play a lot and barely only log when i have a scheduled event

[Insaniac]

You still don't really understand what I said but you clearly aren't a native English speaker so I will just leave it be.

[Sparthos]

I don't see what's hard to understand in the first place.

As an event, it is almost always better to do Voidwatch in PUGs if you're concerned about getting drops anytime soon. With how low the drop rate is and LS event days being typically 3-4x a week, the event is designed for constant repetition and that is what you're able to pull off by shouting runs and grinding through kills one right after the other.

Of course linkshells contain friends but the more people you have wanting different drops, the more likely you are to divide the time amongst different NMs and never actually get what you want in the first place. You can do Qilin everyday or wait till event days but more than likely the person spamming Qilin everyday is going to wind up getting the HQ2 drop before the individual that waits for event days.

Such is SEs new system of handling drops where linkshells aren't as "ideal" as pug groups doing content in small parties. That doesn't change my liking of linkshells but the facts are the facts.