On Artifact Armor.

[MakkotoParinne]

Now that they are reworking Relic Armor, I was wondering if the same would be done for the Artifact Armor it was aesthetically based off of.

It's not a very difficult concept, but problems would be limitations or necessity. Would anyone want their original Artifact Armor to be upgraded using a similar method to Relic Armor? So that there are 3 sets of gear that encompass how a job plays, or just to look different while still performing effectively in a group/solo setting?

...

Now, due to Artifact being easier to get, the trials would probably be more difficult for the NQ Artifact than NQ Relic. The Artifact +1 would share the same "ease" as the Relic +1 pieces because they share the same acquisition method.

Any thoughts on this? I know Relic is a pain, but what about the people who spent many hours/weeks/months on their Artifact Armor +1 pieces?

Thank you for your time.

[Clou777]

this was the original plan anyway im sure

[Vold]

Any thoughts on this? I know Relic is a pain, but what about the people who spent many hours/weeks on their Artifact Armor +1 pieces?

Who? I got mine by doing Limbus, and I darn sure wasn't doing limbus for +1 AF gear. But I got just one done, THF feet, so I could use and get another NQ to store the set. Not exactly a lot of time spent there trying to attain +1 armor. It just came to me on it's own good time.


I rather they give us more new gear than fool around with old tired looking AF gear.

[Eri]

Any thoughts on this? I know Relic is a pain, but what about the people who spent many hours/weeks on their Artifact Armor +1 pieces?

Thank you for your time.

Its 2 Limbus a Week as it stands i have a full Set Dancer AF+1 that didn't take Hours or Weeks it took Months.... But i would like Upgrades on these!

Though i would wish that +1 was neded before Trials im aware that could take to long.

But AF upgrades will not happen until Limbus fixes.... after Einherjar i guess or something.

[MakkotoParinne]

Who? I got mine by doing Limbus, and I darn sure wasn't doing limbus for +1 AF gear. But I got just one done, THF feet, so I could use and get another NQ to store the set. Not exactly a lot of time spent there trying to attain +1 armor. It just came to me on it's own good time.

^ Then I suppose what I said about spending time on it doesn't apply to you. lol

Other people, like Eri, did work hard on it, and it seems unfair to leave them in the dust when they worked just as hard as someone trying to +1 their Relic Armor.

[wildsprite]

I too would like to see something like this

[Zumi]

Honestly I rather have them make new sets then rehash old ones. I don't see why people are so attached to their old gear. Relic upgrades aren't turning out so well they seem to be worse the empyrean gear.

Give me something new that's better then what I currently have, not rehash old gear with a bunch of tedious magian trials.

[MakkotoParinne]

Have we seen any examples of gear yet? That would be the deciding factor, and since they are upgrading Relic already, my point is more toward the people who have already done +1 Artifact.

With new gear there is the matter of keeping it somewhere. With a full Relic/Artifact Armor set, you can just store it when you don't need it, freeing up space, I guess. I'd rather have something old and storable that I can make better (better enough to compete with other sets, that is) instead of getting something new.

What I'd really like to see is the stats. Will upgrading old armor sets be worth it? Are we going to get +1% Cure Potency? 1 STR? 1 Enhancing Magic skill? Those kind of possible Random-Synergy-Augements-Now-Static-Upgrades are exactly what myself and others are afraid of, and if that's the way it's going to be, I'm all for new gear, even if it's not storable.

[solodragon1984]

there should add something like that cause getting relic+3 gonna be a pill IF nobody is helping others cause some people on my server never helps and then when they need help they complain on about nobody helps them -.- and i wonder why

[Greatguardian]

Don't bother.

People will just bitch and moan that their LEVEL FIFTY ARMOR FROM FIVE YEARS AGO isn't better than Empyrean+2 and Voidwatch gear after it's augmented.

[MakkotoParinne]

Won't the same thing happen to the level 71-75 Relic Armor, or Empyrean Armor for that matter come 99?

Why would they implement trials for one set and not the other set of similar acquisition? Adding NQ Artifact Armor to the list of trials would just be complimentary due to the Artifact +1 being as difficult to obtain as Relic +1, in a sense being more complete (as well as harder trials if you don't want to get the +1).

Square Enix is a mystery, as always.

[Teraniku]

Either they will or they won't. While I wouldn't mind upgrading my Gallant Leggings +1 into something more useful, I won't lose sleep over it. I'm just glad we're getting relic upgrades and they are TotM and not Synergy.

[Alhanelem]

Either they will or they won't. While I wouldn't mind upgrading my Gallant Leggings +1 into something more useful, I won't lose sleep over it. I'm just glad we're getting relic upgrades and they are TotM and not Synergy.
What's so wrong with synergy? I'd honestly rather have to do a single synth, however tricky it may be, than have to turn in 1000 Absolutest Virtue Bracelets.

[MakkotoParinne]

Synergy isn't preferred because the augments are random and irreversible. What if you did your synth and got something ridiculously stupid, while someone else does the same synth and receives an amazing bonus? Not many people get what they want on the first try.

Think of it like the current trials for +1/+2 Empyrean Armor. It does a direct jump between stats, statically, making it much better while still retaining the gist of what it originally had on the NQ/+1.

[Camate]

We do not have any concrete plans for artifact armor upgrades. If we were to implement them it would be around the time when we adjust Limbus content. However, we feel that Homam and Nashira adjustments take a higher priority, so we can’t make any promises.

[MakkotoParinne]

Understood.^^

My opinion is that it wouldn't exactly hurt anyone by implementing it (a lot of the pieces would be decent with proper upgrading), it would just make sense in regards to Relic Armor and the similar difficulty of attaining/+1'ing it.

Thank you for your feedback Camate, I appreciate it! :D

[Concerned4FFxi]

We do not have any concrete plans for artifact armor upgrades. If we were to implement them it would be around the time when we adjust Limbus content. However, we feel that Homam and Nashira adjustments take a higher priority, so we can’t make any promises.

I'm willing for limbus to be a two part update, homam first and whatever else your cooking but please no af1+2, that's just not cool.

[MojoJojo]

What's wrong with AF1+2? I wouldnt mind trying to beef up my Ninja Chainmail....

[Greatguardian]

What's wrong with AF1+2? I wouldnt mind trying to beef up my Ninja Chainmail....

I want new gear, not a rehashing of gear we got 5+ years ago.

Why do people want all of this old gear buffed? Only reason I can think of: Because they already have AF1, and they want good gear without having to go out and get it.

[MakkotoParinne]

If you read my post, I asked for it because it makes sense to do; they are upgrading Relic Armor which is already old and useless/outdated/situational. If they are making that good/better, why not the first set? Making the sets better breathes life into existing zones, and makes Dynamis/Limbus/Einherjar/etc worth doing again. We won't have to play in a do-over of old zones for entertainment.

Everyone wants new gear, I suppose. Once the 99 cap hits, I wonder if the Empyrean Armor would be obsolete at that point, as well.

Also, that's a pretty judgmental opinion. I don't know how it is on Cerberus, but I've never seen level 95's running around in full AF1 (or without AF3, for that matter) on Leviathan.

[Greatguardian]

You've never seen a 95 run around without AF3 before?

Well, if you count the NQ then I guess that's fine.

Regardless, instead of ... playing ... in a do-over... of old zones... you'd rather us .... play in the old zones...?

Something is wrong here.

Think about this for a moment, then get back to me.

[Concerned4FFxi]

Why would the DEV upgrade relic but not artifact? What was the purpose of upgrading af2 to af2+2? That same logic should be applied to af1, the idea is to make them more useful and redo the old content to bring it up to the 99 cap, but really it's not about OUR gear, it's about THEIR zones. They want you to go back and reuse dynamis zones, but they won't invest time into redoing af1 because they feel homam is going to be a big enough draw to get you back into limbus.

I'm paying money for a game and I want the stuff done right, upgrade the af1 or dont upgrade anything I hate being insulted by SE. The more open this dialog is with the DEV the more I realise why people are being pissed off and taking their money elsewhere, this isn't about Cure V, or this or that this is about why the heck would you be so freaking cheap about skipping af1, yet doing af2? I don't care if af1+2 came out last, as long as it comes out.

Personally, and I hate to say this because I love this game and I'm afraid if I really say how I feel someone is gonna agree with what I said and then quit, which makes the end of my favorite MMO that much sooner, if they don't want to invest the money to redo af1 then we probably won't see anything 'new' ever, and last stand or vw isn't what 'new' i'm talking about.

I'm flipping mad right now, I didn't complain that much they rushed 76-99, and made some of the gear/content they introduced out dated almost as soon as it came out, I gave VW a chance, I'm willing to do the last stand, I'll wait for new real content/end game, but now I'm getting irrate. Someone came up with the whole evolith system, tell me that didn't bomb and it's extensive, yet they won't redo af1???

P.S. I'm doing a Concordia for my manequinn now just because my buddy's decided to kill all the fomor kings. SE had time to implemeant this system, and while it can probably use a revision also, AF1deserves/demands priority.

[MakkotoParinne]

You've never seen a 95 run around without AF3 before?

Well, if you count the NQ then I guess that's fine.

Regardless, instead of ... playing ... in a do-over... of old zones... you'd rather us .... play in the old zones...?

Something is wrong here.

Think about this for a moment, then get back to me.

Someone likes to be spicy just because...

Why should they add some extra zones when people don't use the ones that already exist? Can't someone post their opinion without someone being a jerk about it? -_-

If you would like something added to this game that you think people would enjoy, feel free to make your own forum thread about it.

[MojoJojo]

Getting AF upgraded through a quest, or trial could potentially take just as much time, or longer than collecting new gear. So you still have to "go out and get it". I'd love new gear as well, but what's so hard with slapping some magian trial to old forgotten gear to make it more relevant?

[Greatguardian]

Someone likes to be spicy just because...

Why should they add some extra zones when people don't use the ones that already exist? Can't someone post their opinion without someone being a jerk about it? -_-

If you would like something added to this game that you think people would enjoy, feel free to make your own forum thread about it.

I don't use the zones that currently exist because I used them for 8 years and they're honestly not interesting any more.

Straight up. Sea (as an example) is boring. I've spent more hours in Sea than some posters here have played at all. I don't want to have to go back there again for new crap. I want to go somewhere new. I don't want to have to do limbus for the 345094575656th time because the gear I need at level 99 suddenly drops from the zone.

This is where you get the disconnect. If you're not absolutely sick of Sky, Sea, Dynamis, or Limbus, how long were you doing them pre-patch? Because, honestly, it seems more like the people who never really Endgame'd it up are ones who want this gear to be useful so that they have a reason to do old content that they never did before. But those of us who spent far too many hours sitting around in Apollyon don't want to go back, especially for armor that's actually worthwhile. We want something that's legitimately new. Upgrading Artifact Armor is the exact opposite of that.

Sure, I'm damn sure that most of these forums can't sympathize with me about how infuriating the thought of spending one more second in Sea is, but so what? Homam, WS Gorgets, Nashira, shit is still worth getting. No amount of reward is going to magically make these zones more popular among experienced players (you know, the ones who actually leave port jeuno on a regular basis). They will still be empty - just slightly less empty with a smattering of full perle BSTs.

[MakkotoParinne]

I don't use the zones that currently exist because I used them for 8 years and they're honestly not interesting any more.

Okay, if that's the way you feel, why not put forth some ideas that reflect what you want in this game, and rely on your nigh-decade long expertise for it, instead of tearing down other people's ideas with blown-out-of-proportion remarks?

You've said your piece, and since you obviously disagree, come up with something better/more relevant. :) We all play the same game, after all... shouldn't we all try to come up with ideas that would work out together?

[Greatguardian]

Okay, if that's the way you feel, why not put forth some ideas that reflect what you want in this game, and rely on your nigh-decade long expertise for it, instead of tearing down other people's ideas with blown-out-of-proportion remarks?

You've said your piece, and since you obviously disagree, come up with something better/more relevant. :) We all play the same game, after all... shouldn't we all try to come up with ideas that would work out together?

Unfortunately for you, I don't have to "propose my own ideas" in order to dislike yours. I don't care to waste development time on upgrading level 50 armor that we obtained 6 years ago, only to have it used as an excuse when we don't see legitimate new content.

All of the "New" stuff we're lined up to get for the next few months is just a rehash/expansion of old stuff. Some of that old stuff was actually fun, so I don't mind, but AF1? Limbus? Anything sea-related can just go to hell. It's not like it really matters, the Devs already said there were no plans to dick around with AF1 so I'm happy with that.

[MakkotoParinne]

We do not have any concrete plans for artifact armor upgrades. If we were to implement them it would be around the time when we adjust Limbus content. However, we feel that Homam and Nashira adjustments take a higher priority, so we can’t make any promises.

Again, you're getting argumentative. I'm not forcing you to do anything, merely suggesting. Read the above before you make comments like that, please.

[Greatguardian]

Again, you're getting argumentative. I'm not forcing you to do anything, merely suggesting. Read the above before you make comments like that, please.

Are you intentionally ignoring the mooglespeak subtext there? The Devs haven't even started on things they said they would definitely do 6 months ago. I wouldn't get your hopes up just because they said they "Really aren't planning to do it, but might maybe sorta if we get it done before January"

[MakkotoParinne]

I'm not taking anything they said out of context. They are thinking about it.

Either way, this would be a proper debate if you actually had an idea of your own, but I won't press the issue. In your previous post, you said that the "new" content is just re-done stuff, so why are you bashing an AF upgrade thread when you can just bash a "New (Actually Old) Content" thread?


Edit: By "new" content, I mean zones, battlefields, endgame, etc.

[Greatguardian]

Lol, not this again. When you write a thesis, you're also responsible for defending your thesis. You can't just say, "Well, this isn't a real debate until you go and write your own thesis". I have no interest in proposing, I don't know, flying chocobos?

There are a million things that the Devs could do. One thing I absolutely do not want them to do is augment AF1. That's all that's necessary for participation in this discussion.

[MakkotoParinne]

I did defend my thesis, though... I gave reasoning to why they should be upgraded and what good will come of it, while you just abhorred the idea of anything Limbus related.

All I'm saying that you're putting my ideas down while refusing to post something better, and that's just the truth.

"I'm sick of Limbus" isn't an excuse, in my opinion. As far as I'm concerned, if you don't have anything productive to say/do, then why are you still posting here after you've said your piece?

Note: Flying chocobos! <3

[Greatguardian]

Limbus was only one example. So what if I'm not posting something "better"? That has no bearing on whether or not I think AF1 should be augmented. It's a yes/no topic.

It's old gear, from level 50, that we obtained 6 years ago. There is nothing wrong with gear being outdated, events being outdated, or hell even zones being outdated. Out with the old, in with the new. If you enjoy the old, nothing is stopping you from enjoying it now.

I respond because my posts are being directly responded to. You may call it unproductive, or even counterproductive, but if what I desire is for AF1 to stay AF1, then I feel like I'm being perfectly productive. It's very obvious that I'm not here to help or encourage you or your idea. I stand in direct opposition to it. I do not feel that your idea would make the game better - I feel that it would make it worse, by encouraging this horrific rehashing trend.

The crux of your logic was "If you're upgrading relic, why not artifact too?". As far as I'm concerned, neither should have been bothered with. Since they already upgraded Relic, they may as well not scrap it as they will never get that development time back, but there's no need for them to waste even more time upgrading gear from half a decade ago.

[MakkotoParinne]

That's not what I mean. I'm not saying you can't say no; as a matter of fact, I respect your opinion. Your reasoning behind it, however, is biased.

Why don't we just agree to disagree? This isn't getting anywhere. :)

[Greatguardian]

That's the idea.

Bias, however, is a fact of life. It's impossible for anyone to be unbiased. You have your bias, I have my bias. Honestly, I don't feel that my bias is any more prominent than yours either. You want something, for some reason that appeals to your personal interests. I don't want that something, because it stands in opposition to my interests. It's all the same.

[MakkotoParinne]

Let's leave it at that then. :3

Maybe a member of the dev team will post again in here to get a yes/no clarification.

[Seriha]

Assuming whatever possible upgrade system comes about MUST regurgitate old content is flawed. Rather, SE giving us options is something we should be striving for. While perhaps a bit late for warning, Makkoto, GG is the type who would gleefully gut a job of its theme for practicality. Once you get past the concepts of abilities and the like, equipment like Artifacts and Relics is a subset of those themes in both function (ideally...) and aesthetics. So, it's not really surprising he's raging since there are people who still care about these types of things and dares to disagree with his esteemed opinion foundationed in longevity.

Personally, I can sympathize with event burnout. That's where having multiple paths to a similar destination shines. Or things like point systems where it's not so much about a random number generator as it is modest effort. When I see people clamoring for AF1+2, I get the vibe they're not just fishing for +1-2 of existing stats and calling it a day. That'd be a waste of player and dev time. No, I see people wanting things brought up to new standards, maybe even setting bars relative to independent gear options. Yes, getting these would suck if it meant grinding Dynamis/Limbus/Salvage/etc. 500+ times, but there's nothing stopping SE from putting the upgrade methods in honest to goodness new content other than SE themselves. Sadly, with a skeleton crew and limited budget, that's a harsher reality than it should be.

[Greatguardian]

Gee Willikers, it's almost as if you +1'd the things I've been championing in other threads in this subforum. So where's the disconnect? Ah, right. Lore.

Believe it or not, I love lore. I enjoyed my Artifact quests. I enjoyed the characters, and the stories plenty. Maybe I don't want to see such a rich lore watered down into magian trials. Maybe some sleeping dogs should be left to lay. Maybe I just want new stories, new lore, new characters to interact with seeing how the level 50 Orcs really aren't that scary any more when our individual player characters are a higher level than the Beastman Kings.

Maybe, just maybe, I enjoyed my Artifact quests but simultaneously recognize that they are over, and the gear is old. What does the armor really mean to the job, hm? Most of it is typical "This was rusted, you found it, I'll repair it for you" stuff. It was never meant to be the penultimate culmination of a job's individuality or power - merely a stepping stone. We outgrew footsie pajamas, too.

[Seriha]

Yet with the ease of leveling these days, through antiquation you're basically advocating the abandonment of old content and lore (that not everyone may have experienced) solely because you don't want to step into an old area again and are talking like that is it how it has to be. Some of the AF quests are left open-ended or relatively unexplained, like what happened with Rainemard and the San d'Orian church for RDM. On the other end, we've been hinted at the existence of "elite" representations of our job types like those deployed to Xarcabard during the Crystal War. What's to stop plot from ushering players as the next generation of these ideals for the classes with equipment to match? Things can be more than a moogle zapping our stuff, but the prospect of getting SE to write up 20 storylines and 100 quests dispersed among them is probably a time long behind us. Still, I'd rather have that than, "You find Best In Slot(tm) on the New HNM Only Few Get to Fight." Quested gear with a meaningful story has been exceptionally rare in FFXI. It's not too late to change that. Of course, if we're gonna go that far, I wouldn't be surprised to see having AF+2, Relic+2, and Emp+2 as a requirement for the next best thing.

[Greatguardian]

If people are ignoring story and lore because they have the option to ignore story and lore, making armor obtained via story and lore isn't going to make them suddenly care more about story and lore.

If they want to expand on story and lore, that's fine. Anyone who gives a damn about story and lore can and should be going and doing the Artifact quests anyways, especially since many pieces are still useful at 95 anyways. But adding magian quests to old armor doesn't equate to an expansion of lore. Likewise, expanding on the lore doesn't necessarily equate to making the gear wtfbbqawesome or equivalent to AF3.

There is a massive difference between saying "Hey SE, please give us some more story and lore. I miss that." and "Hey SE, please make my level 50 armor super awesome at level 99 via trials of the magians". One of these I support, the other I do not.

[FrankReynolds]

Well, making AF viable again may actually make people who skipped it go back and check out the story / lore that goes with it, but I can't get behind this unless it somehow ends with a trial that uses both the relic and the AF piece to make one uber piece. Even if it's just combining the relevant stats. I have too much gear, and I like most of my AF right where it is right now....in storage and forgotten.

[Raksha]

I agree that they should probably work on new stuff instead of old stuff, but there is one aspect of upgrading AF1 that I like: For the most part AF1 is stuff we already have, and upgrading it would only make it better, therefore it wouldn't really require more inventory slots like it would if they added something new.

My inventory is strained already, so if they just buffed gear that I'm already carrying around, it'd be great.

[MakkotoParinne]

Yet with the ease of leveling these days, through antiquation you're basically advocating the abandonment of old content and lore (that not everyone may have experienced) solely because you don't want to step into an old area again and are talking like that is it how it has to be. Some of the AF quests are left open-ended or relatively unexplained, like what happened with Rainemard and the San d'Orian church for RDM.

In my opinion, I think it would be good to expand on this. Every job has one NPC in general that has something to do with their class quests. Black Mage has Shantotto, Monk has Oggbi, Dark Knight has Zeid. Perhaps there could be a quest/trial that gives you an armor set in their name, such as Erlene's Attire (Scholar), Laila's Attire (Dancer), or Zeid's Armor (Dark Knight); something handcrafted by the best/iconic member of that job class to bring your abilities that much higher, with a set bonus to match. Long shot? Hell yes.


Once you get past the concepts of abilities and the like, equipment like Artifacts and Relics is a subset of those themes in both function (ideally...) and aesthetics.
...
I see people wanting things brought up to new standards, maybe even setting bars relative to independent gear options.

Look different, play well, have fun.^^

[MakkotoParinne]

Likewise, expanding on the lore doesn't necessarily equate to making the gear wtfbbqawesome or equivalent to AF3.

Just a thought, why does AF3 have to be the only set of best gear? I believe there should be more than one set of job-defining/visually notable gear that makes a job class truly shine. Artifact and Relic would do that nicely, without creating new gear people can't store.

[FrankReynolds]

I agree that they should probably work on new stuff instead of old stuff, but there is one aspect of upgrading AF1 that I like: For the most part AF1 is stuff we already have, and upgrading it would only make it better, therefore it wouldn't really require more inventory slots like it would if they added something new.

My inventory is strained already, so if they just buffed gear that I'm already carrying around, it'd be great.

I keep about 99% of it in storage, so just pulling it out to upgrade = inventory -1. And this is SE, so of course they won't make an NPC that can store the new upgraded gear until 1-2 years after you stop using it again.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I keep about 99% of it in storage, so just pulling it out to upgrade = inventory -1. And this is SE, so of course they won't make an NPC that can store the new upgraded gear until 1-2 years after you stop using it again.

They already stated the moogle would be able to store it.

[Greatguardian]

Well, making AF viable again may actually make people who skipped it go back and check out the story / lore that goes with it, but I can't get behind this unless it somehow ends with a trial that uses both the relic and the AF piece to make one uber piece. Even if it's just combining the relevant stats. I have too much gear, and I like most of my AF right where it is right now....in storage and forgotten.

We both know people would just spam enter through the cutscenes if all they were after was the gear. If people care about story/lore, they do story/lore quests. If they don't, they don't. If they have to for nice gear, they spam enter.


Just a thought, why does AF3 have to be the only set of best gear? I believe there should be more than one set of job-defining/visually notable gear that makes a job class truly shine. Artifact and Relic would do that nicely, without creating new gear people can't store.

It doesn't. There is definitely gear being released that's better than AF3. But you know what doesn't need to be better than AF3? AF2. And AF1. You know, the AF with the lower numbers that we got years ago. AF3 shouldn't be any more of an end-all be-all at 99 than AF2 was at 75, or AF1 was at 60, but you know, that doesn't mean any of these sets should be the fulltime iconic job set. On top of that, why does flavor/lore/iconic gear have to trump other pieces in the same slot? Even most AF1, and a lot of AF2 still has macro use today, otherwise I'd never be messing around with Moogle Slips 4 and 6 all the time. It's not "Useless", just not fulltimed or TP'd in (... okay, Ninja TPs in AF1, what the hell).

Frankly, I'm not sure what you want. AF1 is about as useful as it should ever be, really. I hate the idea of people running around fulltiming JSE at 99 because it's best-in-slot. Everyone looks the same. Tantra this, Tantra that. Sure, high-end players will always end up looking somewhat similar due to the nature of gear in this game, but that doesn't mean making easily-obtainable grind gear the best for each job is even close to a good idea. At the same time, please don't even say you want it to be "Good but not the best". It already is. Every job I play uses at least 1 piece of AF1/AF1+1. All of them. Some jobs use 4 pieces of AF1/+1. I'd say that's useful enough.

[FrankReynolds]

We both know people would just spam enter through the cutscenes if all they were after was the gear. If people care about story/lore, they do story/lore quests. If they don't, they don't. If they have to for nice gear, they spam enter.

Your probably right, was just wishful thinking. To be honest, the last couple jobs I've leveled, I didn't even bother with AF, and I like the stories.

[MakkotoParinne]

On top of that, why does flavor/lore/iconic gear have to trump other pieces in the same slot?
...
Frankly, I'm not sure what you want.

I suppose random armor found in the gut of some ugly monster makes more sense.

I already said multiple times what I want, more than one set of gear that has good stats/set bonus that is visually appealing and/or job-defining. We already have those in the form of Artifact and Relic Armor, without creating more random sets. On that note, it does follow the trend to have AF1 upgraded in the same manner as the rest of the old gear in this game.

The questline/lore is important. I think it makes more sense for ancient armor with backstory to be the "best gear" rather than a random item found in a treasure chest from the Walk of Echoes or something.

[Greatguardian]

1) I've addressed the trend. I dislike the trend. I don't think it should continue. Just because Homam is getting a facelift doesn't mean AF1 needs to. Neither should be getting facelifts to begin with.

2) We already have three sets of gear with good stats and a set bonus that is visually appealing and job-defining. I still use AF1 and AF2 as well as AF3 on all of my jobs, without needing to upgrade them. Do you just want to fulltime AF or something? Or do you want to crash the crafting and endgame markets completely by making AF the penultimate gear? Because those are still important parts of the game.

3) Define "Best". There will never be a single "Best piece of armor in the game for everything" in any slot, ever. What do you want? Best TP piece? Best WS piece? Best macro piece? Best skill piece? Best potency piece? Most AF1/AF2 is already the Best in slot for job-specific abilities because they have job-specific enhancements like Temple Cyclas/Melee Gloves' Chakra boost and Commodore Tricorne's Phantom Roll enhancement. A lot of AF is already the "Best" at something. Do you just want it to be the best at Everything? If so, that's impossible.

[FrankReynolds]

I would like it if they released new abjurations that drop in Sky / Sea / Einherjar / Limbus / Abbysea / (my god I can't believe I'm saying this) ...Voidwatch, that can be traded in along with corresponding pieces of AF, Relic and Empyrian Armor to create jizztastic Single pieces of armor that combine all the stats.

IE: trade in warlock's + Duelist's + Estoqueur's hat +abjuration and receive :

NEW PIMP HAT NAME +3
[Head] All Races
DEF: 31 HP +14 MP +40 INT +8 MND +8
Magic Accuracy +7
"Magic Atk. Bonus" +7
Elemental magic skill +10
Enhances "Fast Cast" effect
Enfeebling magic casting time -12%
Enfeebling magic skill +15
Adds "Refresh" effect
Set: Augments "Composure"

Maybe they let you pick which model you want to keep, so that you can pick your look. Fashion freaks could redo the quest by obtaining all the crap again if they wanted to change looks.

Of course this will never happen, but it sure would be nice if we could stop juggling all these JSE sets.

[Greatguardian]

I think they're still struggling with the cap on the number of attribute types that can be placed on a single piece of gear, so "uber gear" is pretty much impossible.

[FrankReynolds]

Yeah, I forget what the cap is on attributes, but I'm sure quite a few pieces would go over it. Maybe They could compensate somehow.....they probably would mess it up though :P

It's just a pipe dream. You know if they ever did it there would have to be some new crappy thing they did to "balance" it, like make it so that the piece doesn't function with gear macros or something lame :P

[Concerned4FFxi]

1) I've addressed the trend. I dislike the trend. I don't think it should continue. Just because Homam is getting a facelift doesn't mean AF1 needs to. Neither should be getting facelifts to begin with.

It's not just homam, it's homam, af2, nyzil gear, and salvage gear, plus we already had sky gear augments so why would af1 be left out?

I feel this is SE being cheap, and not being consistant.

[MakkotoParinne]

I still use AF1 and AF2 as well as AF3 on all of my jobs, without needing to upgrade them.

Do you just want to fulltime AF or something?

Or do you want to crash the crafting and endgame markets completely by making AF the penultimate gear? Because those are still important parts of the game.

1. Okay, why not have them upgradable so they do their job better? Nothing quite like better gear!

2. Suuuure. I'd like one set with everything on it, sure, but that's not possible with the current mindset of players and Dev team members.

3. Yes, damn those synergy workers/crafters, wearing their smocks and.. being.. synergists/crafters.

...

Along with consistancy, I'd just like more options. I don't want to look like everyone else, walk like everyone else, talk like everyone else, TP in the same gear, weaponskill in the saaaame gear. It might as well be Final Gear Options Fantasy With No Variety. I'd like to have more than one set of gear with good stats on it while looking like the job I play.

Idea: You weaponskill in a piece of gear that has 30 STR on it. You TP in a piece of gear that has 10% Haste. Why not.. (wait for it!!) make a piece of gear with 30 STR and 10% haste? Add that onto a nice piece of matching equipment (such as Warrior's AF1) and you have a decent set of armor that looks okay, does it's job, and you don't need to gear swap. Blown out of proportion, but that's the gist of it.

[MakkotoParinne]

On that note, upgrading old gear would be nice so people could use the gear they liked with a higher level standard. Why do you think they are upgrading old sets? People used to wear it, it is no longer relevant, and they don't want their hard work to be blown out of the water.

More sets of equipment to do well in a party/solo setting while looking aesthetically appealing would be nice. Again, just pushing around some ideas.

[Leonlionheart]

It's not just homam, it's homam, af2, nyzil gear, and salvage gear, plus we already had sky gear augments so why would af1 be left out?

I feel this is SE being cheap, and not being consistant.

How in the world do you come to the conclusion that the difficulty to obtain AF1 is even close to Homam, AF2, Nyzul, or Salvage gear and therefore deserving of the same treatment?

A toddler could get 5/5 AF1 in a few hours

[MakkotoParinne]

How in the world do you come to the conclusion that the difficulty to obtain AF1 is even close to Homam, AF2, Nyzul, or Salvage gear and therefore deserving of the same treatment?

A toddler could get 5/5 AF1 in a few hours

It's more of a matter of perspective. At that time, without higher level help (read: not level 70+ when you did your AF1), the quests were rather vague and difficult (read: Wiki hasn't been around forever).

I don't think anyone said anything about the difficulty of obtaining AF1. Most armor sets aren't difficult to obtain, they are more of a grind-with-no-success thing unless someone isn't doing their job properly. At least, that's my experience on the matter.

Upgrading it would be consistant, like they are upgrading every other set of old gear.

[Greatguardian]

Hm. And here I figured they were updating old sets because they knew damn well that they didn't have nearly enough content ready for the release of level 99, and modifying old systems is easier than coming up with new ones. But that's totally not in line with anything else they've been doing over the past couple years, right?

Uber gear is also completely out the window due to engine limitations, unfortunately. Gear only has a certain number of "Slots" where you can add effects or attributes to them. This is why a lot of AF loses its elemental resistance component when an effect is added in the +1. There simply isn't space for all of the attributes. This means that FFXI will always be an extremely macro-dependent game. They will never be able to release any single piece of armor that's good enough for anyone to fulltime.

But, you're right, as long as they're upgrading all of that nice, endgame level 75 armor, they may as well upgrade the level 50 armor while they're at it too. Gee, wouldn't it be nice if they augmented our level 30 RSE too? I think that'd be swell. They may as well be consistent. 75-52 is only 23 levels, and 52-30 is 22 levels! There's precedent, see!?

[FrankReynolds]

Well... +1s from limbus were 75 right? I guess if they went that route, it would ............ still be dumb. Also, I would be sad because I'm pretty sure I tossed all my Thief +1 gear except for feet. Would be lame if I had to go get all that crap again.

[hiko]

I suppose random armor found in the gut of some ugly monster makes more sense.

I already said multiple times what I want, more than one set of gear that has good stats/set bonus that is visually appealing and/or job-defining. We already have those in the form of Artifact and Relic Armor, without creating more random sets. On that note, it does follow the trend to have AF1 upgraded in the same manner as the rest of the old gear in this game.

The questline/lore is important. I think it makes more sense for ancient armor with backstory to be the "best gear" rather than arandom item found in a treasure chest from the Walk of Echoes or something.

3/5 of AF armor are found in tresure chest!

It's not just homam, it's homam, af2, nyzil gear, and salvage gear, plus we already had sky gear augments so why would af1 be left out?

I feel this is SE being cheap, and not being consistant.
because
1)homam, af2, nyzul salvage sky gear were "end game" gears and AF1 were not
2) AF1 already got upgraded

[Seriha]

If you want to play the endgame semantics game, when the cap was 60, AF would've been considered endgame for its time along with things like Roc, Simurgh, Serket, and Lumberjack. Granted, this is a period most anyone outside of Japan wouldn't know about since NA release came with both Zilart and the 75 cap.

Still, as others have noted, it doesn't take long to get most of these pieces (minus mandatory day/JP midnight waits or moon phase stuff like with RNG), but antiquation and abandonment of content we both paid for and devs spent a lot of time on is a reality if we subscribe to the belief of just washing our hands of it and hoping for something new. Again, there's nothing saying legitimate new content can't be related to these in some way along with other general shinies.

[Greatguardian]

No, I most certainly do not feel that Garrison and Eco-Warrior should still be relevant in 2012.

That's pretty much what this comes down to.

[Seriha]

So, how slippery is that slope of yours?

[Greatguardian]

Almost as slippery as yours, considering you're the one who brought up the 60 cap and tried to call Artifact armor "Endgame".

[Seriha]

Do you use any +1'd gear from Limbus? If so, where's the violent rage about SE using an upgrade system for content a couple years down the line? Strangely enough, Limbus was in no way related to their base piece's original acquisition methods... Curious precedent, that.

[Greatguardian]

One or two pieces. Why only one or two? Because most of the upgrades are insignificant. If that's all this was, and it didn't detract at all from the development of real endgame (hint: not possible), I honestly couldn't care less. Unfortunately, here's the way things look in the real world:

1) Developing a system to dick around with AF1+2 means not developing a system for new gear/rewards/stuff. Straight up. Even if the new event is the same either way, I'd rather get new gear from it than magian upgrades for level 50 armor.

2) No one in this camp, including the OP, is going to be happy with minor upgrades to the existing pieces like AF1+1. They are going to want massive overhauls that make them better than AF3+2 and/or Voidwatch part 1/2 armor. If it doesn't beat AF3+2, it will be deemed worthless. Do you see a problem with this? I do. The flaw is not in level 50 armor being upgraded, per se, it's in level 50 armor suddenly being better than level 90/95/99 armor.

To expand upon this, even if they avoided overpowering AF1+2, what would essentially change? Niche macro pieces will stay niche macro pieces. Nothing is gained. So, why waste time on it? Opportunity cost is a very real thing. If I had the option to hire more people onto the Dev team and help them produce more content, I would. But I don't. Therefore, real priorities have to be assigned to what the team actually works on. AF1 is not a priority.

[MakkotoParinne]

3/5 of AF armor are found in tresure chest!

Not exactly what I mean. There's a difference between armor with backstory and armor that has none.


No one in this camp, including the OP, is going to be happy with minor upgrades to the existing pieces like AF1+1. They are going to want massive overhauls that make them better than AF3+2 and/or Voidwatch part 1/2 armor.

Not super overpowered. On par, if not somewhat less is some regards, with AF3+2, while having a certain stat setting them apart. Just like what they should do with all endgame gear sets that people tried tirelessly to attain (AF1+1 being one of them, and in turn AF1), with slightly different stats for different playstyles.

...

On that note, I'm beating a dead horse. It doesn't matter what we say or do: they will be upgraded or they won't. We shall wait and see, and anything else said on the subject is null and void.

[MakkotoParinne]

Gee, wouldn't it be nice if they augmented our level 30 RSE too? I think that'd be swell. They may as well be consistent. 75-52 is only 23 levels, and 52-30 is 22 levels! There's precedent, see!?

I don't know what you mean. I have much more priority for my level 1 RSE to be upgraded, there is NOTHING else I want more.

[Greatguardian]

And we're back at square 1. If you don't want Af1 to be overpowered, you just want it to be best at "something", preferably relating to the job.

Okay.

Temple Cyclas: Best Chakra body
Temple Gloves: Best Boost gloves
Temple Crown: Best Focus head
Temple Gaiters: Best Dodge feet
Temple Hose +1: Best Guard legs

Hm. Maybe Monk is a fluke.

Gallant Leggings: Best Shield Skill feet AND Best Holy Circle feet (goes from 15% to 17% damage bonus)
Gallant Coronet: Best Cover head
Gallant Breeches +1: Best Phalanx legs

Oh dear. What is this? Uhhh, maybe a mage then,

Warlock's Chapeau: Best Fast Cast head
Warlock's Tabard: Best Enfeebling Magic Skill body
Warlock's Tights +1: Best Enhancing Magic Skill legs
Warlock's Gloves +1: Best Parrying Skill hands
Warlock's Boots +1: Best Shield Skill feet

Well, shit.

[MakkotoParinne]

I mean more of a set like AF3, how people can wear it as a whole set. But like I said, beating a dead horse. They'll do what they do.

Hopefully, like I said previously, a member of the Dev team will clarify what will happen.

[Greatguardian]

As a full set, it will either be better than something or it won't be. There is no "Alternative TP set". It's better, or it's worse. Adding stats that don't influence the final outcome has a net effect of 0.

[Concerned4FFxi]

How in the world do you come to the conclusion that the difficulty to obtain AF1 is even close to Homam, AF2, Nyzul, or Salvage gear and therefore deserving of the same treatment?

A toddler could get 5/5 AF1 in a few hours


And homam or af2 is hard to acquire? Ask yourself why did they upgrade af1 to af1+1 in the first place, if what you said was true. It's easy to get all of these gear sets, granted some are more time consuming than others, but getting af1+1 requires a good amount of time as well, more than it does since af2 rains from the sky in dynamis. The only difficulty in getting af2 is there is a randomness about the drops, but theres also a randomness to the af1+1 items also.

[Concerned4FFxi]

It's more of a matter of perspective. At that time, without higher level help (read: not level 70+ when you did your AF1), the quests were rather vague and difficult (read: Wiki hasn't been around forever).

I don't think anyone said anything about the difficulty of obtaining AF1. Most armor sets aren't difficult to obtain, they are more of a grind-with-no-success thing unless someone isn't doing their job properly. At least, that's my experience on the matter.

Upgrading it would be consistant, like they are upgrading every other set of old gear.

Thank you, that's my point I been stressing. Consistency.

[Concerned4FFxi]

But, you're right, as long as they're upgrading all of that nice, endgame level 75 armor, they may as well upgrade the level 50 armor while they're at it too. Gee, wouldn't it be nice if they augmented our level 30 RSE too? I think that'd be swell. They may as well be consistent. 75-52 is only 23 levels, and 52-30 is 22 levels! There's precedent, see!?

Again, another person not looking at the bigger picture. The gear IS NOT LEVEL 50, it's the same level as af2/af2+1, af1+1 is what the highest current form of af1 there is, the current level to equip af1+1 is 70+. we are going forward, not backwards.

P.S. lol at your RSE remark, it's obviuos you'll say anything just to trash a topic you don't approve.

[Concerned4FFxi]

because
1)homam, af2, nyzul salvage sky gear were "end game" gears and AF1 were not
2) AF1 already got upgraded

AF2 got an upgrade as well
AF1 gets their current +1 from an endgame event, limbus, so whats your point?

[Concerned4FFxi]

Do you use any +1'd gear from Limbus? If so, where's the violent rage about SE using an upgrade system for content a couple years down the line? Strangely enough, Limbus was in no way related to their base piece's original acquisition methods... Curious precedent, that.

Thf feet, whm hands, blu body, smn legs, nin body, there's two macros peices and three possible full time full time peices, depending on your gear set, right off the top of my head. Just because the content came out in it's orginal fashion, didn't stop the DEV from saying that it was good enough to warrant it's upgrade in Limbus to AF1+1, to be on the same level with relic and relic+1. I like serious debates, but some of these posts are amazingly lacking in logic, and people say anything just because they refuse to back down from what they said earlier, even when the evidence is out there that proves their point is mute.

[Greatguardian]

GOOD GOD QUINTUPLE POST

STOP. JUST STOP.

[Krashport]

Square Enix should just make: "All the time melee/TP/DMG Armor set."

Quest: What the hell are you doing!? "Hey now that Quest name is all that I could think of, On short notice"

You gotta collect this:
Artifact: Fighter's Armor +1 Set
Relic: Warrior's Armor +2 Set
Empyrean: Ravager's Armor +2 Set

Just using the WAR Job as a metaphor. You just freed up 10 inventory spaces also you don't have to run back and fourth to the Porter-Moogle!!! Also I'm sure Lv.99 will bring more weapon skills, abilities etc... This is just an "Rough" idea of what one set could look like.

Edit: Just think how many macro's it would free up for those Abilities and useful things like items and not just gear swaps, If you put all that time into getting all those Sets and having those Stats, Whats really the point in gear swapping. The "Final set" would incorporate all those stats in to "one set!" Now that would be the best reward in the game I think!

[Tsukino_Kaji]

I still say that AF should be an ingredient in the new relic.