[dev1042] Paladin spells

[Zumi]

It would be nice for Paladins to get 'Shell V' somewhere on the way to 99. It's not really game braking or anything its nice to be able to do your own shell spells and not have to use a lower level.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I'm actually surprised they never got it too be honest. They got Protect V.

[Neisan_Quetz]

They never got Shell IV at 75 cap either, so this is actually expected for SE. Not that it made sense back then either.

[Psion]

I'm guessing their idea is that paladin is a blood tank, and although they are aligned with divine protection like white mage, they aren't as "specialist" in divine protection against magic as a white mage would be, being more aligned with divine protection against physical damage.

Or something.

I'm not the dev team, don't shoot me! /hides

[Zumi]

They never got Shell IV at 75 cap either, so this is actually expected for SE. Not that it made sense back then either.

Yes I realize this. It was stupid back then, and its stupid now. Paladins can learn a high level White Magic spell Holy 2 but not Shell V?

[Economizer]

Not exactly trying to argue against Paladin getting Shell V or whatever, but some numbers and whatnot:

The difference between Shell IV and Shell V is ~3%. The difference between Shell V and a 5/5 Shellra V is also ~3%. Phalanx will net you very roughly >3% damage resist on a 1000 damage hit. Basically, if you are soloing, you can match a Shell V in most cases.

All this said, unless you are soloing, if a ~3% difference in damage is significant enough to matter to you (Shell IV to V) then shouldn't you bring a White Mage with relevant merits?

Of course, a complete spell list might be more relevant then numbers statements to those who posted this thread - in which case no numbers statements will change anyone's mind, even if that's what I was trying to do (I'm not).

[Camate]

Sorry to say, but we do not have any plans for paladin to learn Shell V.

[Hayward]

Sorry to say, but we do not have any plans for paladin to learn Shell V.

*Aims a rubber chicken in Camate's direction*

[Thala]

This isn't exactly the most devastating news. I don't remember the last time I had PLD in a party with a job that didn't have Shell V. But...why? I can't come up with any logical or balancing reason as to why PLD should not get the spell at 99...

[Leonlionheart]

Sorry to say, but we do not have any plans for paladin to learn Shell V.

Good. This is white.

[Deadvinta]

The developers have no true concept how to make the players happy if they won't add a simple spell such as Shell V to the Paladin's white magic list.

Square Enix Final Fantasy XI Development Team, give me some solid feedback. Give me five solid reasons why you cannot and will not give them this spell.

[Neisan_Quetz]

1. Pld doesn't need it
2. Bring an actual healer if Pld needs it
3. If fighting something you don't need an actual healer for, Pld doesn't need it
4. See number 1
5. Did I mention Pld doesn't need it already?

[Juilan]

Its up there with giving everyone but whm higher cure spells despite the fact cure iv gives a disproportionately low cure at this point in time.
If it wasn't for my whm account I couldnt tank anything on pld because cure iv would never keep me alive after I take a monster's weapon skill...

[Neisan_Quetz]

That sounds like a personal problem and not a Paladin one imo.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

This isn't exactly the most devastating news. I don't remember the last time I had PLD in a party with a job that didn't have Shell V. But...why? I can't come up with any logical or balancing reason as to why PLD should not get the spell at 99...

Capping MDT with an Aegis and Shell V, stupid, but this is probably SE's logic.

[Neisan_Quetz]

You could do that without Shell V with Aegis.

[Economizer]

Capping MDT with an Aegis and Shell V, stupid, but this is probably SE's logic.

Aegis actually ignores (and is independent of) the MDT cap if I'm not mistaken.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I'm fairly certain he's aware of that; what I was referring to is capping Magic damage taken for Aegis only (you can't go to 100% and I've heard conflicting reports; it either caps at -87.5% or -90% damage taken, either one is doable by Pld with Shell IV).

[Darkzeru]

The developers have no true concept how to make the players happy if they won't add a simple spell such as Shell V to the Paladin's white magic list.


IMO there's no FULL way to make players happy....in fact i don't even know why people think that every time someone isn't happy with something that it needs to be changed...

Like others have said they don't "need" it......that's what healer jobs are for..... partially....


They tend to have their reasons behind their actions whether we agree with them or not....

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I'm fairly certain he's aware of that; what I was referring to is capping Magic damage taken for Aegis only (you can't go to 100% and I've heard conflicting reports; it either caps at -87.5% or -90% damage taken, either one is doable by Pld with Shell IV).

Assuming lvl 99 will be 50% on Aegis wouldn't that only make 71%? That said gear would allow it to go higher anyway.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Formula is

Magic Damage You Take = Floor( (Magic Damage you would have Taken)×(100% (-% Magic Damage Taken -% Damage Taken) -% Aegis Magic Damage Taken )÷( 1 + MDB/100 ) )

Can reach 90% with Aegis 90, but I've heard it's capped at 87.5%.

[camaroz]

1. Pld doesn't need it
2. Bring an actual healer if Pld needs it
3. If fighting something you don't need an actual healer for, Pld doesn't need it
4. See number 1
5. Did I mention Pld doesn't need it already?

Pld doesn't need Holy2 but they're getting it.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Pld doesn't need Holy2 but they're getting it.


Sorry to say, but we do not have any plans for paladin to learn Shell V.

Nope.jpeg, get over it.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Formula is

Magic Damage You Take = Floor( (Magic Damage you would have Taken)×(100% (-% Magic Damage Taken -% Damage Taken) -% Aegis Magic Damage Taken )÷( 1 + MDB/100 ) )

Can reach 90% with Aegis 90, but I've heard it's capped at 87.5%.

Ah, fair enough then.

[Atomic_Skull]

The developers have no true concept how to make the players happy if they won't add a simple spell such as Shell V to the Paladin's white magic list.

Square Enix Final Fantasy XI Development Team, give me some solid feedback. Give me five solid reasons why you cannot and will not give them this spell.


Same reason only THF gets base treasure hunter higher than 3. Yes giving everyone everything would make a lot of people happy, but it would also ruin a lot of jobs.


I can't come up with any logical or balancing reason as to why PLD should not get the spell at 99...

Because they have Aegis.

[Atomic_Skull]

double post, ignore.

[Hayward]

It's amusing how some people will say anything to justify aspects of certain jobs being underpowered for fear of them becoming "overpowered". From Red Mages' melee ability to Paladins' ability to effectively defend themselves and do enough damage in the process, this silly talk seems to have "protect (restore in the case of RDM) my job's bandwagon status at any cost".

[Seiowan]

Is anyone else finding it amusing that hard-to-obtain harder-to-upgrade relics are being toted as the sole reason for not giving Paladin's Shell V? Even though someone already mentioned that they can apparently hit the cap without it? Even though they can just get a WHM's fully merited Shell V in a group and get the same bonuses?

There are tons of overpowered soloists in the game, Paladin is rarely mentioned as being amongst them. Let's at least be realistic here.

[Alhanelem]

Because they have Aegis. Because Aegis is totally within the typical player's reach.

[Darkwizardzin]

Because Aegis is totally within the typical player's reach.

.....and another player casing shell V on you is not?

last time I had checked this was a teamwork based game.

[Brolic]

Why is this even a thread?

[Zumi]

Why is this even a thread?

Why you ask? Its the feedback forum and I am giving them my feedback on how I think Paladins should get Shell V.

[Darkwizardzin]

Why you ask? Its the feedback forum and I am giving them my feedback on how I think Paladins should get Shell V.

Well I wouldn't drag this on for too long... SE has clearly stated they aren't going to give them the spell.

I't be more constructive to give feedback on something that will make a difference.

[Hayward]

.....and another player casing shell V on you is not?

last time I had checked this was a teamwork based game.

By "teamwork", I suspect you mean cronyism.

After 7 years of playing and being a native Chicagoan, yes I am that cynical.

[Theytak]

"Plds can't have this!"
"Why not!"
"Because Aegis!"

Argumentum ad absurdum

Not that I really care if I can cast shell V on myself, given that for anything that matters I'll have a whm's fully merited shell V on me, which would overwrite my shell V anyway. But hey, I'm a galka pld. I don't have enough mp to cast Raise, let alone Holy II. (Yes, I'm exaggerating at this point, but sadly, I have 8 mp merits and I sit around 300 MP WITH 1~2 pieces of mp gear....)


By "teamwork", I suspect you mean cronyism.

After 7 years of playing and being a native Chicagoan, yes I am that cynical.Chicago? Please. Try living downstate, in central IL. -_-

Anywhere that isn't Chicago is pretty much completely ignored by Springfield 90% of the time. That said, I completely understand and agree with your view point, as I've also been playing this game for 7 years and am from the same state as you.

[Economizer]

Not that I really care if I can cast shell V on myself, given that for anything that matters I'll have a whm's fully merited shell V on me, which would overwrite my shell V anyway. But hey, I'm a galka pld. I don't have enough mp to cast Raise, let alone Holy II. (Yes, I'm exaggerating at this point, but sadly, I have 8 mp merits and I sit around 300 MP WITH 1~2 pieces of mp gear....)

If I'm not mistaken, Shell V overwrites Shellra V and Shellra V overwrites Shell V (and Shellra 1/5 overwrites Shellra V 5/5). Also, (not that this matters much either) Holy II costs as much as Raise does, and not an MP more.

[Ophannus]

Shell V isn't even THAT much of an improvement over Shell 4 and PLD historically in FF games has always had an 'incomplete' spell list anyway. I'd like for SE to focus more on Divine Magic for PLD not Enhancing Magic like how DRK specializes in Dark Magic and not Elemental Magic. They should really make PLD get Banish III and other strong enhancing/nuking Divine Spells since these are meant to combat the undead which is PLD's specialty, not WHM's which is healing/enhancing.

[Alhanelem]

.....and another player casing shell V on you is not?

last time I had checked this was a teamwork based game.
I think someone totally failed to detect the sarcasm here. Yet the one who failed to comprehend gets all the likes... funny...

[Theytak]

If I'm not mistaken, Shell V overwrites Shellra V and Shellra V overwrites Shell V (and Shellra 1/5 overwrites Shellra V 5/5). Also, (not that this matters much either) Holy II costs as much as Raise does, and not an MP more.

Don't make me choose between Raise and Holy II, man, I can't cast both! If I did, it would leave me spiritually exhausted and unable to properly flash my junk at monsters so that they attack me in the seething, foaming-at-the-mouth rage that ensues upon seeing an unwanted galkan sausage.

[camaroz]

Nope.jpeg, get over it.

I dont care one way or the other. you said pld doesnt need shell 5, i simply stated a fact about holy2

[Alhanelem]

I'd always assumed that the reason PLD doesn't get the highest tier of shell in the first place is simply because it would be a higher level than the level cap due to shells being learned at later levels than protects (PLD had pro IV and shell III at 75, now it has pro V and shell IV at 99).

[Neisan_Quetz]

I dont care one way or the other. you said pld doesnt need shell 5, i simply stated a fact about holy2

And you got an answer about Shell V already, get over it.

[camaroz]

And you got an answer about Shell V already, get over it.

last word.jpg

[Unleashhell]

Personally I don't see why PLD needs Shell V even at 99. Granted yes I have Aegis but even if I didn't Shell IV is just fine. Giving Holy II is just a waste imo. The amount of MP that it will need is prolly 1/3 of most PLD MP pool and its not going to be worth using. They should have given Flash II instead.

[Economizer]

Giving Holy II is just a waste imo.

Spell list completion, and the spell was already in the dats even before they gave it to White Mage. If anything, it was a waste to give it to White Mage, because that was the real effort - giving it to Paladin is just a simple toggle of jobs able to use a spell.

Holy II has twice the potency of Holy for only 50 more MP. Which is to say, Holy II completely sucks unless you use a full Solace charge or Divine Emblem, in which case it only mostly sucks.

[Clou777]

i think Protectra V and Shellra V should be scroll items and WHM merits should be changed to Protectra VI and Shellra VI as it makes no sence that other jobs can have WHM meritted spells pretty much

[LeaderofAtlantis]

I'm still confused by the fact that enemies can use spells as PLDs that we can't even if we hit the same level. I mean, the same could be said about NIN and it's inability to learn some Ni level spells, but take the Banish spells - isn't PLD the anti-undead job? I know most people here wouldn't care either way about them, but I'm just curious about the logic behind us not getting them but we get Holy II. How about Raise II?

I guess I'm just mainly wondering about the thought process behind giving jobs certain spells and not giving it to them when a beastman, for example, of the same level can use spells that we don't have access to.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

i think Protectra V and Shellra V should be scroll items and WHM merits should be changed to Protectra VI and Shellra VI as it makes no sence that other jobs can have WHM meritted spells pretty much

Not at 75 they couldn't, and still can't. Shell V and Protect V are only equal to tier one, and is single target. That's like comparing a SCH Accessioning Phalanx with Phalanx II.

Personally, if they do change it then it should be plain old "Protect Effect and Shell Effect" not another tier.



I'm still confused by the fact that enemies can use spells as PLDs that we can't even if we hit the same level. I mean, the same could be said about NIN and it's inability to learn some Ni level spells, but take the Banish spells - isn't PLD the anti-undead job? I know most people here wouldn't care either way about them, but I'm just curious about the logic behind us not getting them but we get Holy II. How about Raise II?

I guess I'm just mainly wondering about the thought process behind giving jobs certain spells and not giving it to them when a beastman, for example, of the same level can use spells that we don't have access to.

This is true of most jobs. RDM enemies can cast more than 15 different spells at much lower levels than RDM can even get at 99. A few examples:


Diaga II - Lowers defense of enemies within area of effect and gradually deals light elemental damage.
MP Cost: 60 Casting Time: 1.75 Recast Delay: 6.25
Target: Enemy / Type: White / Element: Light / Skill: Enfeebling Magic
Jobs: WHM52 RDM45

Diaga III - Lowers defense of enemies within area of effect and gradually deals light elemental damage.
MP Cost: 120 Casting Time: 2.0 Recast Delay: 6.5
Target: Enemy / Type: White / Element: Light / Skill: Enfeebling Magic
Jobs: RDM75

Meteor II - Magic Help Message.
MP Cost: 150 Casting Time: 18.0 Recast Delay: 52.0
Target: Enemy / Type: Black / Element: Light / Skill: Elemental Magic
Jobs: WHM75 BLM75 RDM75

Paralyga - Magic Help Message.
MP Cost: 12 Casting Time: 4.0 Recast Delay: 20.0
Target: Enemy / Type: White / Element: Ice / Skill: Enfeebling Magic
Jobs: WHM61 RDM61

Slowga - Magic Help Message.
MP Cost: 30 Casting Time: 2.5 Recast Delay: 30.0
Target: Enemy / Type: White / Element: Earth / Skill: Enfeebling Magic
Jobs: WHM61 RDM61

Hastega - Magic Help Message.
MP Cost: 80 Casting Time: 4.0 Recast Delay: 30.0
Target: Self Only / Type: White / Element: Wind / Skill: Enhancing Magic
Jobs: WHM61 RDM61

It's just the stupid way SE works.

[Ophannus]

RDM should totally have AoE enfeebles. Why does WHM get AoE cures and enhancing and BLM gets AoE nukes but RDM gets nothing aoe except diaga. Worthless.

[Theytak]

Not at 75 they couldn't, and still can't. Shell V and Protect V are only equal to tier one, and is single target. That's like comparing a SCH Accessioning Phalanx with Phalanx II.

Personally, if they do change it then it should be plain old "Protect Effect and Shell Effect" not another tier.

but... Phalanx is stronger than Phalanx II with 5 merits... or it was back at 75, the last time any rdm I knew had any phalanx II merits at all... or did I miss the point entirely?