What have become of the RDMs.

[Cylock]

After happily leveling RDM and spending years main healing in endgame and merit parties on Col. i feel I am at a loss now with the release of Abyssea. Red Mages used to have the edge over all other healers due to our ability to never run out of MP. Not to mention our native enhancing and unrivaled enfeebling skills. Now that players have HP out the ass and SE didnt see fit to give us higher tiers of curative spells and all of our great unique spells being whored out to SJs what is to become of the RDM if not to main heal? Well the first thing that comes to mind is OMG OMG OMG you mean i can finally realize my dream of being a melee mage? You mean all those parties of putting up with players expecting the world from you were all for not? Ok mabye im being a little dramatic but still i put up with a lot of douche bags in my day, but what are RDMs to do now? So far I've made use of my awesome enfeebling skills in silence pulling parties and that has worked great so far. Other then that i feel useless except for buffing. I am now thinking of level my WHM past a SJ to feed into my need to heal parties and be the object of every party's desire(totally not in a gay way XD.)

What do you guys think, maybe give us some new and interesting spells to give RDM that great uniqueness it once had. I'd like to hear some feedback from the RDM community.:eek:

[Nepharite]

Build an Almace for Chant du Cygne and become that melee rdm you've always wanted to be!
It'll mop the floor with your average DD in a pick up pt.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Evis with blau mops the floor with the average DD in a PUG but I digress...
As it stands aside from certain situations lowmanning Rdm isn't really useful for much unless you feel like dusting it off to finish skilling up or something, that's just how it is in Abyssea since we have few Yellow/Hardly any Blue/Red procs, although aisde from not being useful I'm glad I don't have to main heal as much anymore and can go back to nuking/meleeing for the heck of it. It all depends on what happens in the future, if people are going to stay in abyssea Rdm will need at the minimum more curing ability to be seen as viable, if the game steers away from 3k+ HP straight tanking with no shadows/needing to exploit weaknesses on mobs I don't think it will be necessary.

[Protey]

that's just how it is in Abyssea since we have few Yellow/Hardly any Blue/Red procs,

this is not true, rdm can sub war and do 8 of the 13 red procs (though you'd need 3 staff merits + gear atm to do sunburst).
As /war we can also do 8 blue procs.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Natively, we have few red/blue/yellow procs. Most people aren't going to /war as if you wanted to garauntee red you wouldn't bring Rdm in the first place. Paladin would be more useful in that regard and they're already not wanted (Although for other reasons).

[Protey]

by that token, every job other than blm and blu has few yellow; every job other than war and mnk have few blue; every job other than war has few red. So why complain.

[Nepharite]

Natively, we have few red/blue/yellow procs. Most people aren't going to /war as if you wanted to garauntee red you wouldn't bring Rdm in the first place. Paladin would be more useful in that regard and they're already not wanted (Although for other reasons).

Its for the situations where you only have 2 people or are solo. Then again, most rdms won't have the polearm skill, let alone the pitchfork event item.

[Protey]

Also, to seem viable in abyssea? you do know you can self FC (aeolian edge anyway). You can easily get 50% pdt, you have phalanx, stoneskin, ice spikes, and aquaveil. You have native traits/stats and a huge selection of gear to boost your damage. You can get all lights. All this is native to rdm. If you're /nin you can hold or kill pretty much anything in abyssea. Viable? yea you're viable, you can farm lights/TEs/gold chests/whatever while the rest of your LS goes on their merry way. You pretty much don't need them, but you sure can help them out.

[Neisan_Quetz]

So basically you're advocating Rdm for the position of solo Blu/Blm (who are already desired), only slower.

[Protey]

blu/blm wouldn't survive over a dozen mobs hitting it at once (though this does of course depend on mob, easily done with mandies in tahrongi, not so easy with mobs that hit like a truck). and your rdm must be pretty gimp if it's slower than a blu/blm (either that or you never did aeolian edge spam/have no melee capability)

[Neisan_Quetz]

Blu and blm can survive multiple mobs hitting them at once. Both jobs easily out nuke or out DPS rdm, your blu/blms must not be very good I'm sorry to say. Charged Whisker/Thermal Pulse Etc. easily compare to AE, blm can simply drop aga/aja spells.

[Protey]

outnuke, yes (unless you're counting us using 2 hour, then nothing can compare), outDPS (melee)... no. BLM melee sux. RDM can pull slightly ahead of BLU if you can offhand a KC, but in the absence of that, RDM and BLU are going to be tied with both going Almace/OA2-4, with 15% magic haste and 25% equip haste.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Solo blm only needs to melee long enough for pearl kill so don't see how that matters? Aside from enspells which don't add much to overall damage inside Abyssea (KC notwithstanding) Blu easily has superior melee and WS gear over Rdm, don't see how you're calling it tied. Both jobs can outnuke Rdm inside if so inclined.

[Protey]

what is this superior gear you speak of over RDM, the only piece i'm aware of is epona's ring.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Empyrean Armor, Homam, Loki's, Twilight Belt, Alcide's Set, Ocelot. Not to mention higher skill, settable DD traits, Ease of capping haste as well. haven't seen up to date Blu lately so hammering out set versus best Rdm can do which I already have calculated to see just how disparaging the difference is.

[Protey]

if you look at the blu gear you listed... it's mostly acc based... since when is acc a problem. Twilight Belt... well 2% DA i will give you that. Like i said, both get 25% equipment haste. So BLU will pull slightly ahead with the higher skill, epona's, and twilight, unless the rdm can offhand a KC.

[Neisan_Quetz]

What? Head and Legs also give str/skill, and Accuracy isn't as autocapped as you might think in abyssea, attack certainly isn't. Blu is handily beating Rdm in both of these fields before gear, which blu has the advantage in. Rdm either requires ASA legs to cap haste, or +1 Dusk in addition to Vbelt/lolninurta's with Nash legs.

[Supersun]

I know abyssea tends to give a lot of accuracy, but we still only have a D in club. I really can't see how the misses and DPS (KC averages at under 10 DPS) loss from the offhand swings using a KC will beat a Joy or a Khanda.

[Protey]

you're forgetting atma of the omnipotent, not only does it make capping equipment haste easy, it also gives a great boost to Chant du Cygne damage

[Protey]

I know abyssea tends to give a lot of accuracy, but we still only have a D in club. I really can't see how the misses and DPS (KC averages at under 10 DPS) loss from the offhand swings using a KC will beat a Joy or a Khanda.

280 skill for rdm. add in some acc food. you're not going to be missing much with the acc gear stacked on top. and if you add in club merits, even more so. Also don't forget all the DEX boost adding acc from cruor/atma.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Capped club merits, Pizza+1, +25 accuracy in gear to keep 25% haste, best Rdm can do is ~92% accuracy on heroes IT mobs with club, so while close still uncapped. Also means abandoning several attack options, of which Rdm already is lacking in. Enspells are barely 7-8% overall damage inside abyssea for Rdm, don't see it being useful.

Atma of omnipotent is a joke to anyone serious about doing damage.

[Protey]

the modifier for chant du cygne is dex, omnipotent gives +50 dex, don't see that as not significant. Also since stacking on dex, should cap acc. Also, last i checked, rdm has attack options in every armor slot.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Razed Ruins exist which is why omnipotent will always be forgotten. And if you're going for 25% haste (for TP) and don't have lolninurta's, you don't. I included RR and cruor buffs up to +50, so assumed slight bonus from dom ops, and composure. for Chant, you're still behind in the WS gear Department. Blu doesn't need to rely on pizza to still cap accuracy, Rdm does.

[Protey]

you can have RR and omnipotent at same time. You don't have to have ninurta's, you can also have speed belt, the 5% haste belt off lacovie works too.

[rog]

OA2-4
Why do people think oa4 weapons are good?

[Protey]

offhand for tp gain

[Neisan_Quetz]

Omnipotent is a horrible atma for damage dealing, virtually anything is better than it, even demonic lash. VV, Stout Arm, harvester, scorp queen, gnarled easily, A/O, Apoc and Sanguine Scythe all outclass it. Was assuming without haste legs, otherwise Rdm can cap but is still lagging in acc/attack/stats/Crit hit rate/damage/DA/TA rate (unless assuming S Scythe which is still a pretty poor atma for melee, still outperforms omnipotent). Don't see how it's close.


Why do people think oa4 weapons are good?

Probably thinks Oa4 is giving him more rounds than it actually is.

[Protey]

was thinking of gnarled as 3rd. That with RR and omnipotent would pretty much cap crit rate.

[Neisan_Quetz]

No. RR capped your crit rate from dDEX. Omnipotent does nothing except WSC for Chant, worthless atma

[Protey]

If RR capped crit rate (which i don't agree with) then why would you suggest gnarled as well?

[Neisan_Quetz]

I said capped crit rate from dDEX, not overall crit rate. There's a difference. Gnarled is for people who don't have A/O or Apoc, it's next best Atma after them for Meleeing on Rdm, followed closely by Lion.

EDIT: finished editing sheet, assuming both using sword/sword and Rdm having to eat pizza+1 (blu caps without acc food even on heroes exp mobs, and on some slightly higher mobs too) Rdm is doing what do you know, roughly 80% of the Blu's damage. Closer than I thought, still slacking behind especially if you assume harder mobs.

[Superchicken]

I know abyssea tends to give a lot of accuracy, but we still only have a D in club. I really can't see how the misses and DPS (KC averages at under 10 DPS) loss from the offhand swings using a KC will beat a Joy or a Khanda.

you obviously dont have a KC i take it. With RR atma KC misses aren't what you think. I use kc on RNG for Jishnus spam and offhand on nin for Hi spam and are crazy, these misses you are speaking of well i'm "missing" what you are saying cause i dont miss like you seem to think a KC would miss

[Neisan_Quetz]

Rng has accuracy bonuses, that is irrelevant to Rdm using KC.

[Superchicken]

Rng has accuracy bonuses, that is irrelevant to Rdm using KC.

i have a KC and have RDM 90 and again have no problems with acc with KC

[Neisan_Quetz]

Using pizza/fighting weak mobs.

[Nepharite]

Did you include composure in your math? I don't see you mentioning it.

[Superchicken]

Using pizza/fighting weak mobs.

not even my friend. Since the game revolves around abyssea i'm talking in abyssea and if your dding RR is pretty much a standard atma most dd's use. So again when you have a KC and can get on RDM and tell me you cant hit with it and show me some hard evidence maybe i'll listen to you, but then again, I have KC and RDM and can attest from what i do, not from what i assume.

And i'll go even further and say i have no problem with acc using KC on jobs like nin and thf that even lower club skill than RDM

And if i was gonna use food in abyssea, which usually is a waste, it wouldnt be pizza my friend

[Neisan_Quetz]

I always include composure, and I didn't say you can't hit with it, I said you're not autocapping accuracy as easily as you seem to believe in Scars/Heroes zones exluding bastion/dominion buffs which are random and can't be relied on. This is a hard fact period.


IT exp mobs in heroes have 407 evasion approximately, rdm has 280 club skill 296 with merits, assumed roughly 80 dex, + 50 RR +40 full furtherance +15 Almace +3 hollow +4 cuch, +15 accuracy from Composure, head body hands waist legs and feet locked out for haste options, can get +37 accuracy from the remainder for a grand total of 434 accuracy putting you at 74% hit rate approximately. And you think you're capping accuracy easily without food? Pray tell me how you are. Don't say chaining stalwart's either, not always an option.

[Superchicken]

point being you were trying to say the misses from kc offhand were so much that its not a viable option, and from experience and not your mathmatical equations i can tell you the misses aint what you think. I will have tp way faster than offhanding a joytoy or w/e you want to call put in my offhand, which over time means i'm gonna be wsing more often. Like i've said make your statements from what you personally have experienced not the math equations you want to post up or assumptions. But let me take a stab here and say your next argument is going to be that my melee hits from the KC aren't what a joytoy or other weapon would be. Well duh, but the argurment here is not about that we are talking dmg over time with that comes the amount of wsing done and i can tell you with offhand KC the dmg overtime > tahn offhand w/e you want to insert.

[Neisan_Quetz]

So your anecdotal evidence circumvents how accuracy has been working in FF for the last 5 years, okay. And if you're using the best DD atma for meleeing, one of which is Apoc, another of which is Alpha/Omega, you aren't even weaponskilling as much as you think you are than someone with even a Mageblade and have worse DoT.

[Superchicken]

when you have a KC and can make your assumptions more reasonable with facts from using one holler at me.

[Neisan_Quetz]

When you learn how accuracy works in this game holler at me.

[rog]

Don't say chaining stalwart's either, not always an option. On exp mobs? It kind of is.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I don't have anything on how much accuracy it is, assuming he was chaining stalwart's then I'll give he's capping accuracy with D club skill then.

[Superchicken]

when you believe taht your mathmatics say your accuracy is 74% so out of 100 swings or you are gonna hit 74 times or however many swings you take you are gonna hit 74% of the time holler at me.

And again lets use your joytoy in the offhand that MAY double attack then lets look at the KC that MAY 2-8 time attack, and yes already know you are gonna pull the 8 times is the max you can attack in a round card so if you swing with your main hand sword you can only attack up to 7 times with the KC card. I'm telling you from experience with both a joytoy and KC offhand, the tp gain with the KC is still faster with KC than joytoy regardless of any mathmatical equation you want to throw out there. But again i'll listen to you cause you have KC and have tested it out first hand!

and even if i'm chaining stalwarts it dont matter cause we are talking abyssea here clearly since the use of atma is in discussion as well, but no even without using stalwarts. But food or no food stalwarts or no stalwarts my acc aint an issue i'll tp up faster than an offhand joytoy rdm will. I've used both and have both and speak from experience not math equations.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Both suck if you use Apoc/A/O/Lion, TP gain isn't as fast as you think it comes out to and overall DPS is just lower.

EDIT: I gave you atma, I gave you composure, I gave you cruor buffs, I gave you high accuracy gear with capped haste, your accuracy is more of an issue than you seem to believe without stalwart's/acc food. Try parsing instead of eyeballing for once?

[Supersun]

It's more of the lack of attack that's the problem.

That and what's the point of getting TP quickly on Rdm? Unless you have CDC Rdm WSs are ...slightly below average at best and not to mention DPS from the Kraken is going to be nearly nonexistent at all. A LOT of Rdm's damage comes from DoT. Sacrificing a big portion of your DoT for extra crappy WS damage doesn't seem like a good move. Not to mention the TP feed. Every time I see someone use a Kraken club in WoE I want to shoot them.

[Jandel]

First, I hope my english is understandable.

Regarding the thread and not how rdm is good or bad in melee...

I'm the kind of rdm who likes to just stand and focus debuffing mob, sadly, colibrì exp pt and abyssea pt won't make me doing this role, I was so disgusted by old merit pts that I merited my rdm all in campaign (lol), where I could do whatever I pleased.
In abyssea pts the role seem close to colibrì pts: haste dds, refresh mages, @#asjdn dds that don't know how to use shadows and so on. Abyssea end-game seems to me like an abyssea pt, I often found myself just helping the whm curing and buffing than debuffing the mob: usually the routine is pop nm, trying red/yellow/blue, zerg the nm and repeat with the next pop. So, not lot of place for debuffing. Dds are stronger, hit harder and miss less, what's the point in dia them?

I also hope SE won't give us cure 5, basically because I don't want to be the main healer again (this is a whm role!).

So, how do I see the rdm now?

I see it less bound to standard pts.
Something like duo/trio with friends some abyssea nms (or non abyssea nm too) that can be done without the evil brew (It's just envy: I still can't buy it!) or solo something, even just farming gold pixies.

[Rambus]

to lowman abyssea is dependent on procs, so in that view rdm ant needed.

abyssea being easy mode is part of the issue since you really do not need the support of rdm ether.

[Strife]

This thread has moved off topic but before I get back on topic I have to ask why aren't you guys using dagger? I've only recently returned to the game so I don't have an Almace but my AE was doing ~2k on multiple mobs without macro'n in any enhancing gear or using the best set-up of atmas so I don't see how chant could beat that when it's only single target. I think BLU is usually a better DD than RDM but as it doesn't posses any good AoE WS (unless circle blade is really good with atmas? I haven't tried it yet) I think AE gives us a slight edge on melee though that is most likely eroded with BLUs ability to spam AoE spells (if they have reasonable survivability against multiple mobs, I always found BLU interruption rate horrible on longer casts.

Now to get back on topic


First, I hope my english is understandable.

I also hope SE won't give us cure 5, basically because I don't want to be the main healer again (this is a whm role!).

So, how do I see the rdm now?

I see it less bound to standard pts.
Something like duo/trio with friends some abyssea nms (or non abyssea nm too) that can be done without the evil brew (It's just envy: I still can't buy it!) or solo something, even just farming gold pixies.

Your english is very good^^

SE has to give us cure 5 it's a no brainer really. Not only was our last cure upgrade at level 48 but BLM/WHM has the same tier cures as a RDM now! This is just insane! We should've got 5 in the last update, a BLM being able to cure on par with a RDM (with slightly less potency of course) wtf lol!? Cure 4 is useless as the game is now & at 99 cure 5 will be like cure 4 was pre Abyssia.

I have to disagree with what you said I think we're more bound now as one of the roles we could fill previously we now can't efficiently. I don't like being a main healer & we shouldn't & never will be as good at it as WHM but it is part of our role as a support mage & at the moment we suck in that role.. almost on par with BLM :confused: *the mind still boggles*

Though I haven't played it a lot yet since I got back (as it isn't as popular/ useful as it used to be) to me this is the only real complaint I have with RDM at the moment. With our AF3 SE has buffed our offensive magic (though some more elemental magic skill would've been nice), our enfeebling potency & our buffing abilities. With saboteur, composure & the range of benefits from subs RDM has really opened up but as we've gained in those areas we've been stripped of our effectiveness as healers & that's 50%+ of any good support mage.

PS. I know inside Abyssea our melee has greatly improved but what about outside? I don't see much improvement by way of abilities/ traits have gear options got much better (not including Almace)?

[Seriha]

If you're using AE to its best, you're giving up a lot of physical potential. That might be okay if you actually do a lot of AoE farming, but it's not something exclusive to RDMs and people would more than likely prefer us to heal or even pull for said AoEs. Fighting single mobs is generally more realistic, inside and out of Abyssea. Not to mention RDMs are typically yelled away from mobs of difficulty since the damage rarely justifies the TP feed.

[Protey]

PS. I know inside Abyssea our melee has greatly improved but what about outside? I don't see much improvement by way of abilities/ traits have gear options got much better (not including Almace)?

It's easier to get 25% haste now with the 8% haste head (Zelus Tiara). Atheling Mantle is nice for damage (attack +20, double attack +3%). Some nice acc/att options like Rager Ledelsens (acc +10, att+12), Anguinus Belt (acc +12, att +15, double attack +1%), and Tumbler Trunks (DEX +5, att +18). And if you're into daggers, twilight knife is quite nice (DMG 40, delay 190, quadruple attack +3%, additional effect: hp/mp/tp drain)

[Jandel]

Your english is very good^^

Thanks /blush


SE has to give us cure 5 it's a no brainer really. Not only was our last cure upgrade at level 48 but BLM/WHM has the same tier cures as a RDM now! This is just insane! We should've got 5 in the last update, a BLM being able to cure on par with a RDM (with slightly less potency of course) wtf lol!? Cure 4 is useless as the game is now & at 99 cure 5 will be like cure 4 was pre Abyssia.


You've got the point in cure 5, really :p
It will also be nice when soloing... Swap in mp gear -> Convert -> Cure5: almost full health without /whm! Nice, indeed.


With our AF3 SE has buffed our offensive magic (though some more elemental magic skill would've been nice), our enfeebling potency & our buffing abilities. With saboteur, composure & the range of benefits from subs RDM has really opened up but as we've gained in those areas we've been stripped of our effectiveness as healers & that's 50%+ of any good support mage.

I still don't own af3, sadly, so I yet have to see if the buffer role is better... One of my linkshell's friend (full af3+1) said he needed just one item to boost his enhancing magic so it will last the Composure lenght on other player.
Maybe my rdm will be more free, I often found myself just hasting in a pt, when I casted last haste I have to go back and start casting again from the beginning... And that was boring... And again, curing stupid dds that are just whinning they need haste and don't bother about casting their own shadows (Do you know that with haste utsusemi recast are shorter?)...

I'm not against support role but now, expecially in Abyssea, isn't the best role nedeed... Bards and corsairs suffer from it too, or am I immagining things wrong? Rdm is just "lucky" that can haste a whole alliance...

P.s. *brain broke* at blm as a support role D:
Once I had to be a blm supporter (I was helping a friend)... It's madness! When SE will give Meteor to blms I swear I'll cast it on everyone who thinks blm could help curing! >:D

[Protey]

And again, curing stupid dds that are just whinning they need haste and don't bother about casting their own shadows (Do you know that with haste utsusemi recast are shorter?)...

the only DD that should be using shadows are nin. all the dd should be /war or /sam with rare exception (like if they're spike flail tanking)

[Thizzerio]

"What has become of RDM"
You should be the person timing his cures to land, the instant dmg occures, the whm's job is to heal, your role is to mitigate the damage with cure IV

As a RDM in Abyssea you single target heal everything to full in your party of 6, you also keep high priority targets buffered with HP, because your fast cast allows it, (mnk), i target the whm also, aside from this, you are on croud control duty and a fisherman, you keep things slept and bound, silenced and paralyzed, you cast addle on things that do magic dmg, and you haste anyone you feel like. you should have 3 sets of gear, capped fast cast - enimity for healing, an idle set, and a nuking set, you should sub either whm or blm, i prefer WHM,

Enjoy 100% attendance and DKP as well as being in the main group hanging out with your friends.

[Neisan_Quetz]

/SCH, or /nin and melee/nuke/no one really cares because they already have everything else covered if you're on Rdm.

[Strife]

@Seriha
I was talking more about RDM solo in Abyssia using AE but I might start using it when I go RDM to LS farming to. Many times our time building is slowed down by our Fell Cleaver dying because the mages aren't on the ball (& I can't spam lolCure 4 fast enough to be very useful) & usually the mobs (something with low HP usually) only have 10-20% left so AE might finish them off.

@Protey
Hmm.. looks like I'll have to go do some shopping in Abyssia.. after I clear some inventory space. lol



OP Jandel: Maybe my rdm will be more free, I often found myself just hasting in a pt, when I casted last haste I have to go back and start casting again from the beginning... And that was boring... And again, curing stupid dds that are just whinning they need haste and don't bother about casting their own shadows (Do you know that with haste utsusemi recast are shorter?)...

Urgh tell me about it.. I levelled RDM as my very first job that way back in the bad ol' days of XP. Suffice it to say I was so scarred that RDM was the only job I levelled for a long time! Lol.

@Thizzerio
Lol. While low manning even though the MNK or other tank is busting out crazy damage on the mob I've seen WHM often pull hate using mostly cure 5s because they have to spam so fast. Now I don't know what super amazing cure potency/ -enmity set your rocking but if your spamming cure 4s as fast as your capped FC will allow your usually going to pull hate -& the mob- to you & potentially wipe the back line. Also BLM, BLU& BRD are much better crowd control than us & while RDM can pull just like any job can there are jobs better suited for it (unless you need silence pulling). While de-buffing NMs is very helpful a lot of jobs can do this now & in XP parties or low man non NM farming de-buffing is kind of pointless since the mobs die so fast. By the way what's DKP ?
Anyway the point is while RDM is still kind of useful & more so in certain situations we are not as we once were very useful in most situations =/
I also agree with Neisan I prefer /SCH if I'm going to be nuking, RDM needs the elemental skill & you can still have most of the important WHM spells if you need to switch rolls while also getting access to stratagems.

[Thizzerio]

While low manning even though the MNK or other tank is busting out crazy damage on the mob I've seen WHM often pull hate using mostly cure 5s because they have to spam so fast.

Not pulling hate is FFXI 201, sorry i overlooked it for you, it wasnt a pressing issue.

we use 2 healers, rdm and whm, mnk tank

ive never seen the whm pull hate.. ever

ive managed to pull hate solo healing a paladin on orthrus, but thats the only instance i can think of, other than that, it hasnt really been an issue. then again, i wasnt really paying mind to the other players who might be reading, now that i think of it, not everyone has the luxery of a perfect mnk as the base of the group, nor do they have accurate knowledge on alot of the details that go along with what you addressed, so i apologize for the bluntness of the post.

I dont want to explain, id rather just inform. you should be able to figure it out yourself.

as for blm blu brd,

BRD is usually chilling with me and the whm most of the time, so its a given that hes supporting with sleep but his job priority isnt going to take over your rediculous survivabilty on trash mobs and CC ability, its only going to improve you.

Our blu is either charge whisker 2 shotting with the blm on aoe pulls, or luling out chant du cynge while chatting in ls, id much more prefer him fulltime this, improving TE drops and pop items, than wasting time doing things that he isnt needed for,

Blu is a DD and a TE whore.

I sub WHM for Flash.

My view is seperate from yours, but id like to hear your input.

[Protey]

DKP = dragon kill points. In other words, linkshell points.

[Strife]

Thanks Protey I had never heard DKP before but our LS doesn't use a points system.


Not pulling hate is FFXI 201, sorry i overlooked it for you, it wasnt a pressing issue.
Yes and I'm sure not chainspelling cure 4 like you suggest would've been taught in the first class -I exaggerate to illustrate my point.


ive never seen the whm pull hate.. ever
Regardless the point I was making is even a WHM spamming on a petrified tank taking heavy damage or other such situations which are not rare in Abyssea will pull hate let alone someone spamming cure 4 with capped FC.


I dont want to explain, id rather just inform. you should be able to figure it out yourself.
Sorry but to me that just sounds like you think your opinion is the only correct one yet you can't offer an argument to support why.


as for blm blu brd,

BRD is usually chilling with me and the whm most of the time, so its a given that hes supporting with sleep but his job priority isnt going to take over your rediculous survivabilty on trash mobs and CC ability, its only going to improve you.

Our blu is either charge whisker 2 shotting with the blm on aoe pulls, or luling out chant du cynge while chatting in ls, id much more prefer him fulltime this, improving TE drops and pop items, than wasting time doing things that he isnt needed for,

Blu is a DD and a TE whore.

That's great for you & your group but not everyone’s going to have your group or play your way. For instance my group usually uses Fell Cleave to AoE kill not magic, we find it's usually easier than time nuking & then BLM can go off & cap azure & when I play BLU after I help cap lights off ephemerals I usually just Dream Flower pulls & Actinic burst to help the WAR take less damage.


I sub WHM for Flash.
If you sub WHM you have sleep/2, bind & gravity as CC spells that's at most 4 mobs you can handle at a time.. How does that make you at all useful for crowd control especially over other jobs with multiple/ fast sleepgas?

Anyway I think what the OP was asking was not "How do I move from one narrow role into another" but "How are we supposed to make full use of our diverse skills in various rolls when we're not as desirable or effective in those roles any more and what could be done to fix this?" at least that's what I read into it.
Thought I have a suspicion the OP is actually a closeted WHM as I never enjoyed being a WHM substitute as much as he seemed to lol.

[Thizzerio]

I think that you should be supporting everyone, if i was to try to explain it simply.

I guess we all play our own ways, but im having a really fun time as a rdm in abyssea, ive seen alot of people wanting new spells , this, that, complaining, asking, but i mean, isnt that the point of a MMORPG, or.. the online gaming experience in the first place,

From my point of view, i really dont have any issues with abyssea, the dev team gave us 3 months of fun content, some low man farming, time to chill with members of the linkshell, pump out cool dmg, fight some new bosses, (they might not be that hard..) but still fun i acually think it was more of a open test of a new theory of gameplay, but all in all.. i really enjoyed the break from 2 years of dynamis farming, and late nights doing fafnir and aspid 24/7, and... not having to rest was a godsend, but i have faith in the dev team and im sure they arnt done with new content, as well as RDM in general, but i do thank them for changing us from a cycle mage, to somthing fun to play, for real :)

So really i think that RDM has been given the opportunity to preform in a way that otherwise, wasnt available, and thats what has become of the class, im really eager to see where it goes for sure, ^^;

[Boldheart]

WOW some of you guys went off topic like a mofo. My opinion is that RDM is the unique job of melee/buffs/magic, it's the ultimate soloer, good healer, and best buff magic on mobs. You can go and heal a party like a whm, go nuke mobs like a blm, or go do a lil of both nuking and meleeing mobs. If you dont no what to do w/ your RDM you obviously dont know the job and how to use it. Great job and I like it alot.

Yes I agree it cant nuke like a BLM but you can easily hit 2k+ damage nukes on IT mobs in Abyssea. Yes you dont have Cure VI like WHM's do but you can Cure good enough. It's the all around job, not the best at everything but has the diversity no other job has.

[RaenRyong]

good healer

False.

WHM = Best healer.
BLU = good healer.
RDM = meh healer.

[Thizzerio]

False.

WHM = Best healer.
BLU = good healer.
RDM = meh healer.

^ Failpost.

[Neisan_Quetz]

When you have weaker cures than a BLU (not counting cure potency gear) then something is wrong. Rdm can at least outcure their version of cure 4 but Plenilune Embrace does fairly well even without cure potency gear so yea... Blu is currently a better healer than rdm.

[Bigboy]

I have a hard time commenting in this thread because the problem described in the OP, is not actually a game design problem, but more of a perception problem. If a RDM feels lacking because they don't get to replace the best healing class in the game with no detriments anymore, then they aren't really being honest with their expectations. I always try to consider game balance when people ask for changes to a job. A hybrid job like RDM or BLU, can get broken really quickly if they try to bring it in line with a single-role job, because the moment you are allowed to do just as well as a job that only does that one thing, you with replace them in almost every instance.

What I would have liked to see out of a RDM healer would have been a heavy focus on Regen spells, but SE apparently disagrees with me. lol

[Thizzerio]

When you have weaker cures than a BLU (not counting cure potency gear) then something is wrong. Rdm can at least outcure their version of cure 4 but Plenilune Embrace does fairly well even without cure potency gear so yea... Blu is currently a better healer than rdm.

a dead blu cannot heal

[lorzy]

a dead blu cannot heal

neither can a dead rdm?

[Strife]

I agree with RaenRyong RDM= meh healer atm. When a BLM, BRD, SMN, etc. can heal almost as well as you you kind of think "wtf?!" lol.

Thizzerio I couldn't agree more!! lol.. You just illustrated my FF life for the past.. to long! The whole time I was grinding away at those activities I was praying for a break like we're enjoying now -although Abyssia grinding has kind of taken over a lot of that.. gotta get those Sobek skins! >< . My only sadness is I was away for most of it & I hope I didn't miss out entirely on that lull in grinding where we can enjoy the game play.

I think we're all excited to see where they take RDM hence all the complaining & asking, we all want it to be our own RDM ideal. Here's to hoping the surprise is a good one.^^

[Thizzerio]

gotta get those Sobek skins

My Guku!!!!

[Dale]

After happily leveling RDM and spending years main healing in endgame and merit parties on Col. i feel I am at a loss now with the release of Abyssea. Red Mages used to have the edge over all other healers due to our ability to never run out of MP. Not to mention our native enhancing and unrivaled enfeebling skills. Now that players have HP out the ass and SE didnt see fit to give us higher tiers of curative spells and all of our great unique spells being whored out to SJs what is to become of the RDM if not to main heal? Well the first thing that comes to mind is OMG OMG OMG you mean i can finally realize my dream of being a melee mage? You mean all those parties of putting up with players expecting the world from you were all for not? Ok mabye im being a little dramatic but still i put up with a lot of douche bags in my day, but what are RDMs to do now? So far I've made use of my awesome enfeebling skills in silence pulling parties and that has worked great so far. Other then that i feel useless except for buffing. I am now thinking of level my WHM past a SJ to feed into my need to heal parties and be the object of every party's desire(totally not in a gay way XD.)

What do you guys think, maybe give us some new and interesting spells to give RDM that great uniqueness it once had. I'd like to hear some feedback from the RDM community.:eek:

This post strikes me as odd. If you wanted to be a primary healer why not play a white mage? lol

Buffing and enfeebling is what Red Mages do best, so I should think you be happy now that you can focus on your strengths.

[Trangnai]

When you have weaker cures than a BLU (not counting cure potency gear) then something is wrong. Rdm can at least outcure their version of cure 4 but Plenilune Embrace does fairly well even without cure potency gear so yea... Blu is currently a better healer than rdm.

blu is only a better healer then rdm when you gear entirely for it, it always has been, and the lack of Alliance cures kinda makes up for it. Most people never recognized blus potential has a healer role. And honestly they still don't. Considering blu is a hybrid job like rdm, I don't see your point at all, a well geared rdm couldn't out heal a blu (per cure) before the only thing making rdm stand out was its was its MP regenerations with refresh and convert. which in situations where a whm wasent needed was all that made it stand out.

its not the job thats broke, its Abyssea. With jobs being able to solo/Duo almost anything and whms getting 20mp/tick without a rdm to assist them. Jobs like rdm, which are used for Utility perposes are simply replaced by Atmas. Or only used in the very few instances when something can't be easily low maned.

[lorzy]

blu is only a better healer then rdm when you gear entirely for it, it always has been, and the lack of Alliance cures kinda makes up for it. Most people never recognized blus potential has a healer role. And honestly they still don't. Considering blu is a hybrid job like rdm, I don't see your point at all, a well geared rdm couldn't out heal a blu (per cure) before the only thing making rdm stand out was its was its MP regenerations with refresh and convert. which in situations where a whm wasent needed was all that made it stand out.

its not the job thats broke, its Abyssea. With jobs being able to solo/Duo almost anything and whms getting 20mp/tick without a rdm to assist them. Jobs like rdm, which are used for Utility perposes are simply replaced by Atmas. Or only used in the very few instances when something can't be easily low maned.

a rdm spamming cure 3 and 4 is not going to cure for as much as a blu using pleniune and c4/magic fruit. when mobs can deal 2000 damage, and players have enough hp to not be one-shotted by it, cures 3 and 4 don't really cut it. and i assume they meant that with all the cure potency rdm has access to, c4 can outdo magic fruit (i don't know if this is true). when you're speaking specifically about a job's healing capability, i don't see how the fact that they're both hybrid jobs is relevant at all.

saying that "it's not the job thats broke, it's Abyssea" means nothing. it's already painfully obvious why rdm isn't useful in abyssea. however, pointing out rdm's shortcomings in an area where refresh is not important does not make the job any more useful. if the content that everyone wants to do is in abyssea, and rdm is useless in abyssea, then rdm is useless for the vast majority of what people want to do.

i still have my rdm always geared, but it's mostly because i prefer to play rdm in dynamis, where cure 4 is still sufficient to main heal, and i can nuke too. as far as cures, go, i think having a full blown cure V would make whm a lot less useful outside of abyssea, but it's also ridiculous that the highest cure tier rdm gets is the same as any job that subs whm.

[Doombringer]

eh.. at least the pressures off?

but in all seriousness, i'm sorta hoping this resurgence in whm popularity finally leads to rdm becoming that hybrid fighter mage we were all sold on 7 years ago.

keep cure5, give me an A sword skill and access to the same sword ws's as blu. make enspell2 effect all hits instead of just initial hits, and make it's dmg take enhancing skill into account at the time of casting, not the time of the swing. (why reward someone for meleeing in enhancing gear?) raise the cap on stoneskin and give the final form of rdm emp armor some haste and acc, oh... and make it look like crimson scale mail.. cuz nothing LOOKS more classic rdm than crimson scale mail and a warlocks chapeau. then put "RDM" onto some existing gear (why can't my rdm wear my warriors agasaya's collar?) maybe toss in a little "fencer" trait, then as a final beautiful cherry on top, give us a job trait that extends our enspell to nearby party members, like an aura effect. they'll BEG us to melee.

(please don't flame these suggestions as Up/Op, i just dreamt them up on the spot, you get what i'm going for though.

[Xikeroth]

this is not true, rdm can sub war and do 8 of the 13 red procs (though you'd need 3 staff merits + gear atm to do sunburst).
As /war we can also do 8 blue procs.

We shouldn't need to sub warrior to do any procs

[Xikeroth]

If you're complaining about not main healing on RDM, I right away stop paying attention to you. I have WHM leveled to 90 and I'll heal on that any day of the week, But I leveled RDM to nuke, enfeeb buff and even melee before I have it leveled to main heal. I have quit event linkshells because they wanted me to act as a glorified pink mage without any problem.

But I will agree RDM has lost much of its thunder, there is NOTHING rdm can do that no one else can do. Any mage job can enfeeb and buff. We really only have a smaller benifit from tier 2 enfeebs, other jobs far surpass ours in most cases.

But don't be too afraid bards are in the same boat but at least they have exclusive staggers.

Don't worry too much though abyssea is coming to an end as voidwatch designed for 18 players is non-abyssea so everyone will be crying wanting our refresh II, and debuffs since they wont be brokenly overpowered as they are in abyssea.

[Rayik]

Just give RDM Vorpal Blade. Done. Next?

[Fiarlia]

But don't be too afraid bards are in the same boat but at least they have exclusive staggers.

BLM/BRD gets all the Threnodies, and has Elemental Seal to land them.

[Alukat]

eh.. at least the pressures off?

but in all seriousness, i'm sorta hoping this resurgence in whm popularity finally leads to rdm becoming that hybrid fighter mage we were all sold on 7 years ago.

keep cure5, give me an A sword skill and access to the same sword ws's as blu. make enspell2 effect all hits instead of just initial hits, and make it's dmg take enhancing skill into account at the time of casting, not the time of the swing. (why reward someone for meleeing in enhancing gear?) raise the cap on stoneskin and give the final form of rdm emp armor some haste and acc, oh... and make it look like crimson scale mail.. cuz nothing LOOKS more classic rdm than crimson scale mail and a warlocks chapeau. then put "RDM" onto some existing gear (why can't my rdm wear my warriors agasaya's collar?) maybe toss in a little "fencer" trait, then as a final beautiful cherry on top, give us a job trait that extends our enspell to nearby party members, like an aura effect. they'll BEG us to melee.

(please don't flame these suggestions as Up/Op, i just dreamt them up on the spot, you get what i'm going for though.

or at least if SE plans group 3 merits, a JA that enhances en-spell (as example+5 dmg cap, enspell duration +10 seconds for each merit) and make it possible to extend it on pt members.
and i agree that it should proc on every hit and not only at the initial one.

Edit: EN-def down with 50% proc
EN-eva-down with 50%
EN-acc-down with 50%
EN-att-down with 50% might be nice too ^^

Edit2: i know rdm has gravity for eva,blind for acc,dia III for def and Bio II for att down, but an additional one is just *.*

[Kuvo]

I don't know about anyone else but as a RDM in abyssea i have found that it has helped jobs do what their jobs were meant for. For the most part. I never have any issues getting into any type of aby party either NM seal runs, clears, exp and so on. I just found that I actually get to do the job i was supposed to during the NM seal farming and clears more so then exp. During the exp parties I seem to be a healer and nuker which isn't different since the game came out. The better side to this is that our nukes are more respectable now with the new gear and the right atmas. On the NMs and clears I found that my enfeebles have become so strong with atmas and gear that I have seen them save the party from wipeing, and could be the difference in getting the clear or not.

For example i was in a party fighting durinn (4ppl pty) and close to the end of the fight our main tank went down. I already had it paralize on it which was proc pretty nicely, i casted gravity which stuck for the rest of the fight i was able to kite it while our whm got the tank back up for us to kill and get the atma.

Anyway, in my opinion abyssea made the experience i have had much more enjoyable for my RDM job. I won't even get into how much fun i've been having with my BLM job but overall my time in aby as rdm is better.

[Trangnai]

a rdm spamming cure 3 and 4 is not going to cure for as much as a blu using pleniune and c4/magic fruit. when mobs can deal 2000 damage, and players have enough hp to not be one-shotted by it, cures 3 and 4 don't really cut it. and i assume they meant that with all the cure potency rdm has access to, c4 can outdo magic fruit (i don't know if this is true). when you're speaking specifically about a job's healing capability, i don't see how the fact that they're both hybrid jobs is relevant at all.

Yeah, I said that. blu outheals a rdm. it always has in terms of per-cure casting. The reason that being a Hybrid is important is the thing most people don't seem to get. especially when comparing the blu style to the rdm style for healing. Blu is severely limited by there spell setups while rdm can still cast all of there spells regardless of there setup.


saying that "it's not the job thats broke, it's Abyssea" means nothing. it's already painfully obvious why rdm isn't useful in abyssea. however, pointing out rdm's shortcomings in an area where refresh is not important does not make the job any more useful. if the content that everyone wants to do is in abyssea, and rdm is useless in abyssea, then rdm is useless for the vast majority of what people want to do.

So stating an important point in an argument is useless now? It seems that rdms are complaining more then any other job. There are alot more jobs then just rdm that are suffering due to the way the game is now. Look at pld, drk, sam as well who are not as sought for there once strong role, if any at all. The end line is, quite literally, Abyssea is broken.


i still have my rdm always geared, but it's mostly because i prefer to play rdm in dynamis, where cure 4 is still sufficient to main heal, and i can nuke too. as far as cures, go, i think having a full blown cure V would make whm a lot less useful outside of abyssea, but it's also ridiculous that the highest cure tier rdm gets is the same as any job that subs whm.

I can agree with you on this point. Rdm is still useful as a healer outside of abyssea. And at the same time giving rdm cure V would probably kill whm of its role outside of abyssea or at least minimize it. I personally don't believe we need cure V, we just need a new role identity and situations that call for it.

[Rayik]

I'm excited to see what this "Voidwatch" has in store. By taking it back out of Abyssea, it drastically removes the godhood status of some jobs, since there's no atma. I want to be there to see those first Voidwatch battles, when the WHM's run out of MP throwing Cure VI all over the place, and draw agro like crazy, not having Allure and MM atmas for enmity reduction or refresh. Watching them desperately ride their /rdm Convert timer while we sit back and clean up the mess.

Refresh II? {You can have this.}

[Supersun]

Until the Voidwalker NMs are immune to enfeebles and people realize that 2 White Mages are actually better for Mp/time then White Mage +Red Mage unlike at 75 where MP was difficult to get and pretty much the only way to get it was refresh.

Yeah, White Mages won't have their crack atma but with /rdm which gives them refresh and convert they have miles more efficiency then they did before and people should realize pretty quickly that unless your white mage is gimpy as hell and has less then 800 MP adding another white mage will do more then adding a red mage.

The only place we really specialize in outside of abyssea is being the refresh whore for an entire party of MP users.

[Kuvo]

I'm not sure what they have in store for the voidwatch but i hope they add them to areas like sky and sea and higher level areas that have become dead since abyssea. Similar to how they reused the beginning areas with abyssea. But i also think with the voidwatch areas they are working on starting the skillchains up again to make things more fun outside of abyssea. Either way I can't wait to see what SE has in store for lvl 99 content since all the land HNMs and even gods at lvl 99 are going to be cake. (some are now at 90).