[dev1042] Lv cap increase

[Seha]

So we get this as last roll:


Avenger's Roll (Lv. 97)
Increases chance of countering for party members within area of effect. Lucky Number: 4. Unlucky Number: 8.Sooo not satisfied, I really doubt my tanks will give a pup about this. Another roll that will hardly find use.

Really hope we get a new cool ja before the new merits at least. :<

Edit: we'll have to see how it turns out, but it'll have to be very high rate to be able to beat the tact+miser combo(and anyway only my pld in vw will care).

[noodles355]

What would you prefer? We were never going to get a haste roll as they didn't want us to replace Brds. I'm happy with Counter Roll to be honest. I mean we've already gotten some very good rolls since 75 - Misers/Tacticians is insane - I'm content with those. We have most rolls we'd need to buff any type of party that may be required already.

[Greatguardian]

The way I see it, this is really just a[nother] deathblow to Spharai. Sup every MNK with a COR mule being able to cap Counter%.

[noodles355]

It'll probably be something like 10% on a lucky/11 roll. So you'd still be 70% off cap is used used relic feet.

[Mirabelle]

Guess it all depends what the counter rate is. If you could approach 25% counter rate for nonMNK tanks, that would be pretty impressive. If its 5%, well....

Still not what I imagined for the last roll but should have expected it. The era of god-like performance is coming to an end.

[Greatguardian]

How does this lessen the power of the positively broken combination of Miser's and Tacticians? COR isn't being removed from God Tier. If anything, we still have Phantom Roll #3 coming up, which will be omgwtfbbq insane.

[noodles355]

Yeah, I'm going to have to agree that Cor is, and will remain God Tier on current endgame (read: voidwatch). Tacticians/Misers is such a retardedly broken combo, added to the fact that wildfire lets you keep up easilly with other empyrean DDs (who's only role is DDing)... Cor is, and will probably remain an awesome job.

[Mirabelle]

So anyone with test server access tested it out?

[SpankWustler]

So anyone with test server access tested it out?

Without the ability to use a parser (due to the test server being testy about such things), it's VERY hard to test stuff like Counter rate. I would not be shocked if this roll isn't tested at all until it hits the normal servers.

I do find it hard to believe no bro or bro-ette has yet rolled an 11, eyeballed all up on that thing, and posted something inaccurate and nearly unreadable about it. I guess Corsair is just that uncommon of a job.

[Greatguardian]

Without the ability to use a parser (due to the test server being testy about such things), it's VERY hard to test stuff like Counter rate. I would not be shocked if this roll isn't tested at all until it hits the normal servers.

I do find it hard to believe no bro or bro-ette has yet rolled an 11, eyeballed all up on that thing, and posted something inaccurate and nearly unreadable about it. I guess Corsair is just that uncommon of a job.

Corsair costs money. It's pretty nice, really. It keeps a lot of the scrubs out, so the people who actually play Corsair now are the ones who are solid enough to fund it. Just looking at this subforum compared to some of the others is a huge relief. I'd go crazy if the Corsair boards ended up as miserable as the Red Mage or Dark Knight boards.

[SpankWustler]

Corsair costs money. It's pretty nice, really. It keeps a lot of the scrubs out, so the people who actually play Corsair now are the ones who are solid enough to fund it. Just looking at this subforum compared to some of the others is a huge relief. I'd go crazy if the Corsair boards ended up as miserable as the Red Mage or Dark Knight boards.

This is true. The signal-to-noise ratio of this sub-forum is incredibly good. People ask questions, people get answers. Threads rarely end in 10 pages of "KNO U!" and instead have actual discussion. It works!

Still, if you try, I'm sure you can imagine 500 posts about how Corsair desperately requires exactly B- staff skill, a far larger selection of subligaria for both decorative and utilitarian purposes, and exactly two dead cats (one black, one calico). I'm sure there's some bro just waiting to supply all 500 when he gets the chance, so you might as well mentally prepare yourself now.

[Afania]

Corsair costs money. It's pretty nice, really. It keeps a lot of the scrubs out, so the people who actually play Corsair now are the ones who are solid enough to fund it. Just looking at this subforum compared to some of the others is a huge relief. I'd go crazy if the Corsair boards ended up as miserable as the Red Mage or Dark Knight boards.

Actually I've seen more and more ppl lv COR since the age of VW, and the fact that Arma is easy to build+easy to farm money nowadays just makes this job a lot more bandwagon than Abyssea era.

[Mirage]

But still less than many others

[Greatguardian]

I piss away about a million+ gil a week in Voidwatch on Corsair through consumables/ammo alone.

I don't mind if it's popular. It's just not a job that's even remotely friendly to gimp/retarded/cheap players, which keeps these forums clean.

[Mirabelle]

Even if levelling, Armageddon and money are easier to come by, it still remains a costly job that only certain players enjoy. COR is no more god like in VW than we were bird meripo in the day. Still not a ton of COR back then. I suspect a bunch of new CORs will appear and then disappear when they realize the costs of QD cards alone. Let alone the busy nature of COR compared to garden variety DD.

[Anza]

Also, can we maybe not trash Avenger's Roll before we see how it can be used? People were bitching up a storm about Miser's being useless before it was actually released, and we know how that turned out. Let's give it a chance, k?

Any blink tank will absolutely love more counter to get shadows back up, so I can see this being useful in situations where max damage isn't as important as controlled tanking. Not like PLD or MNK would complain about more counter either. Is it going to replace the ideal DD roll setups? No. But there's certainly some potential for legitimate use here.

[Mirabelle]

It's going to come down to the counter rate. But I like the idea of a variety of tank rolls, just wish people would actually ask for them instead of putting me in DD or mage party all the time. MNK/Avengers could be a sweet combo.

Of course I'd like the ability to just limit certain rolls to the tank like pianissimo. that would make tank rolls a bit more user friendly.

[Greatguardian]

The viability of MNK+Avenger's depends entirely on how Melee Gaiters+2's "Augments Counterstance II" effect scales. Counter does eventually cap, and most Monks already come pretty close with gear and/or Atmas.

New Gun WS looks to be a 2-hit 2-Ammo fTP varies by TP WS. Could be interesting, especially with an 85% AGI mod. Maybe a competitive Physical WS to stand up to Wildfire?

[Anza]

The viability of MNK+Avenger's depends entirely on how Melee Gaiters+2's "Augments Counterstance II" effect scales. Counter does eventually cap, and most Monks already come pretty close with gear and/or Atmas.

Not everyone who would appreciate counter is a MNK, therefore they won't all be able to use MNK job specific gear, Counterstance (unless /MNK), or Perfect Counter.

You really think a PLD wouldn't appreciate, say, 20% Counter rate from a lucky roll? NIN trying to re-apply shadows on an NM would like it (see also: Gnarled Horn and Iga Hakama enhance Yonin effect). I play MNK and NIN, and honestly I'd be much more excited about a good counter roll when tanking on NIN than on MNK.

Even an evasion tank doesn't evade everything - I could see something like a DNC or THF enjoying it on certain fights.

[Greatguardian]

I was replying specifically to a comment about MNK and Avenger's, by discussing how MNK and Avenger's interact. I didn't say anything about how it affects other jobs.

Update:

Last Stand:

2-hit Marksmanship WS.

WSC: AGI 100% (20% per merit)

FTP:

2.0 > 2.125 > 2.25

Like Jishnu's Radiance, fTP is applied to BOTH hits for Last Stand.

This means the total fTP of the WS is 4.0 at 100% TP, and 4.5 at 300% TP.

Gorget and Belt's 0.1 fTP increase applies to BOTH hits as well, meaning these pieces are effectively 0.2 fTP each for this WS.

A 4.4 fTP, 100% AGI Physical WS? Sign me up. It will likely end up competitive with Wildfire (Especially considering it can take advantage of Armageddon's high natural D), and offer a solid option on monsters that are more susceptible to Physical damage than Magical damage.

Tangent: Does anyone with test server access know if we have our third roll there yet? Where the heck is that?

[SpankWustler]

Tangent: Does anyone with test server access know if we have our third roll there yet? Where the heck is that?

In happier places. Blowing over a green, lush field on a cool breeze. At just that distance from a fire where it feels "toasty" rather than "hot. In the dreams of every sleeping child. Just past the horizon, where everything is bright and warm and the chill of night is no longer felt. Written on a wadded up piece of paper at the bottom of a waste basket in a drab second-floor office within SE's main offices, long forgotten.

[Afania]

Any blink tank will absolutely love more counter to get shadows back up, so I can see this being useful in situations where max damage isn't as important as controlled tanking. Not like PLD or MNK would complain about more counter either. Is it going to replace the ideal DD roll setups? No. But there's certainly some potential for legitimate use here.

Tanks like PLD MNK NIN etc usually gets more benefit from DD rolls since DD>all seems to be No.1 rule in this game for tank jobs(and it is, in most situations, since you need to cap enmity)

Defensive buffs probably work better when you lowman stuff and lack support/heals, or when situations getting bad that you need to try harder to stay alive.

This roll may work better for lowman situations IMO. COR doesn't have many good defensive buffs, only has evasion/magic def bonus roll and it doesn't make a very huge game breaking difference. I guess it's nice to have another one. Although I was expecting PDT- roll or some sort.

[noodles355]

I piss away about a million+ gil a week in Voidwatch on Corsair through consumables/ammo alone.How o.O? In a VW event (4-8 Zilart/Jeuno T3, or 12 City T4 per event) I go through less than a half-stack of steel, 1-2 stacks of bronze, and maybe half a stack of cards. Synth about 4-5 stacks of bronze for 10k, but even if I bought them at 15k/stack and bought steel for 30k/stack and cards 20k/case. RCB is worthless in high-tier VW as you're well under capped Acc (On Pil with Pot-Au-Feu and Hunter's Roll (Which you wont normally have in favour of Tacticians/Misers) I'm only 70%ish and I'm using about +100Racc in TP gear), so say you go through half a stack of sushi (20k/stack) per event.

If you did 4 VW events a week, you're looking at like 2 stacks of steel, 6 stacks of bronze, 2 card cases and 2 stacks of sushi... 60k+90k+40k+40k=230k. How the heck you're spending 1mil I just don't know unless you're including the cost of Voiddust and Cells which doesn't count as everyone buys them - not just cor.

[Greatguardian]

I use a little over 30 cards a fight, and typically 50-120-ish Bronze and 50-100 Oberon's depending on the mob. I don't use Steels if I can avoid it. I use about 6 sushi per fight, more on dicks like Pil, considering I always get hate and die, more than once. I rock hard and roll harder on pirate, lol.

My linkshell has a habit of calling fake Marksmanship procs when they want me to stop ripping hate off the tanks and use crap WS for a bit, lol.

[noodles355]

Sounds about the same rate as me, just bumped up the numbers to show even when over-exaggerating, it should be nowhere near as much as 1mil. I tend to hold off after taking hate once as Hard fights have nasty AoEs that will one-shot you if weakened and you can't DD at all double weak. On easier fights like city T4s I tend to only DD during staggers as otherwise they die too quick.

[Greatguardian]

Eh? I said per fight, lol. Not per event / 4-12 fights. When I get hate, I tend to just pop Fanatic's/Fool's and beat the shit out of whatever dared to look at my Corsair the wrong way, lol.

[Pebe]

you think its expensive now? HA! Just wait until Last Stand is available. 2 hit weaponskill that we need to use our best bullets for Q.Q. I go through stacks of arrows like candy when I'm spamming Jishunu's on rng. Whenever Armageddon does more damage, I breathe a sigh of relief because I can save my arrows.

[Afania]

I use a little over 30 cards a fight, and typically 50-120-ish Bronze and 50-100 Oberon's depending on the mob. I don't use Steels if I can avoid it. I use about 6 sushi per fight, more on dicks like Pil, considering I always get hate and die, more than once. I rock hard and roll harder on pirate, lol.

My linkshell has a habit of calling fake Marksmanship procs when they want me to stop ripping hate off the tanks and use crap WS for a bit, lol.

Some of the gears on head/legs/waist slot has both AGI and enmity-, and according to my math(using WF dmg calculator to calculate the dmg), a COR capping enmity- with merit/gear(must use a good set that has as much AGI/MAB as possible with enmity- 50) is able to do WS 3x more and deal 2x amount of dmg total before capping hate.

I was planning to try it myself to see how effective it is, but I took a break after update and no longer play enough, and I can't find some of the good enmity- gears on AH everywhere as well since no one's selling it, so it kinda hold off. With next update coming soon I probably need to save my merits and won't be able to change my merit to enmity- to reach cap anyways.

I'm not 100% sure it will be more effective without actually use it in practice, I saw someone else used it, so wanted to try myself. Just tossing out an idea here if hate is an issue.

[noodles355]

Eh? I said per fight, lol. Not per event / 4-12 fights. When I get hate, I tend to just pop Fanatic's/Fool's and beat the shit out of whatever dared to look at my Corsair the wrong way, lol.I'm sorry, you're not WSing 50-120 times per VW fight, don't be rediculous. T4 Cities die too quick, either you're holding dmg for procs, or you're raping it - it dies too quick to WS that much. T3 Zilart and Jeuno will kill you in about 3 hits, as soon as fanatics wears - you're dead. If it's constantly staggered well so that you can keep popping fanatics then it's going to die within 5-10 minutes and you wont have time to WF 50-120 times. You cap hate after about 10 WFs. Soon as you die once you can't go and cap hate again bcause if you die again you can't do any damage for 5 minutes thanks to double weak.

[Greatguardian]

I don't let Fanatics wear! I may have been highballing a bit according to find's ammo tracker from the other night, but not by too much. Actual bronze usage ended up being about 40/fight on T3 Jeuno. Oberon's usage was higher though, as the NMs decided to be dicks and dispel my rolls over and over, and Trump cards were still about 20-30 a fight depending on how fast they were. As long as there is some sort of proc every 2 minutes or so, I'll have Fanatics up at least 50% of the time, and plenty of Lucid potions and Fool's to spam in the meantime (I also get cures, so it's not like I just drop if I have hate). My gun shots take longer to fire than a melee round, so as long as the melees tanking it have capped hate too the mob won't be on me fulltime unless QD charges are up.

Don't get me wrong, I do die, but since I'm typically living off temp items anyways I'm typically able to unweak before dying a second time.

Oberon's prices have finally dipped again though, which has helped. They were 700k/stack on my server for a long while (causing the vast majority of my expenditures), and are now back down to 400k. I'm not entirely sure what causes these market fluctuations, but they save me cash! The original point was that Corsair is expensive as balls anyways, which I'm sure we can agree on.

[noodles355]

I don't agree with basing your numbers off perfectly timed voidwatch staggers. 40 a fight is much more reasonable for a long fight (read: where staggers are being stupid and taking ages). Up to 120 is just rediculous.

Also I'm not sure how you go through more oberons than bronze. Are you getting dispelled regularly? Why? You can QD and WS from like 16-18" away, there's no real reason to be in AoE range. In fact, that's one of the reasons why Cor is so good - you can put up about 20k damage before capping hate, and do it from completely outside almost all AoEs.
If you're not getting dispelled then with Tacticians/Misers, it's rare I ever fire more than one shot between WS, and if QD's up (usually is 1/4 of the time) then I don't need to fire at all. I don't feel it's worth shooting again if you're only a few ticks regain off another WS, it'll take longer than it would to wait on regain, and the damage of normal TP shots is pretty pathetic.

[Greatguardian]

You're always in AoE range if you have hate. That's pretty much the simplest answer. I also have a tendency to walk into AoE range to avoid screwing with my DDs by pulling the monster away and making them lose TP mid-WS. Even with Wildfire's Enmity- buff, I'm gaining hate about as fast as the Ukon/Vereth combo we have tanking most of the time - especially when they change to proc weapons and I don't.

I also have to be within 16' any time I want to roll, so it's just more convenient overall not to stray too far away from the monster. I prefer to stay at 12-14' if I have the option, which is enough to run out of range of AoEs if I need to, and close enough that I can run into range quickly if I take hate or know I'm about to take hate, as I dislike making the monster turn and run away from the DDs.

[noodles355]

Even with Wildfire's Enmity- buff, I'm gaining hate about as fast as the Ukon/Vereth combo we have tanking most of the timeI don't think you are. They cap hate after about 7k damage. With wildfire you do at least double that before capping hate. You're not doing double their damage in the same amount of time.

I know you're a good Corsair, but I really think you're overplaying the hate-tanking thing. If after you're capping hate, you're riding fanatics and staying in melee/aoe range then you still run accross problems for survival what with Instant Death, Encumberment, Enemies using both Magic an Physical AoEs, heavy Dot, etc. In the end it's just not very efficient for the group, and personally I don't think it's worth my personal satisfaction of going "hur hur I'm so awesome, I do so much damage". In the end, does the damage you gain offset the damage you lose by having to slow down and go easy once weakened to avoid being double weak? And if so, is it by so much that it's worth the extra curing power to keep you alive? personall I don't think so.

[Greatguardian]

Every instant-death move that I can think of is blockable o.O. Glare can be turned, Prophet can be stunned, Death Spell is avoidable with Fool's. What other ones am I missing?

14k damage is about 10 Wildfires, though. Going in with 300TP from Tact and using Sekka is 2, each Quick Draw adds another WS which makes 4, and then Meditate on top of your 12/tic regain from Monarch's+Tact+Ring+Coercion is easily another 2-3 WS right there. 7 WS off the bat, without any shooting, is 10-11k damage plus 600-700 from the two QDs. COR can cap hate at the start of a fight almost effortlessly. Hell, I lose more damage sitting around popping Ascetic's/Braver's/Monarch's/Gnostic's/Fanatic's than anything else.

I know it can be bothersome sometimes, but that's why I end up standing in/near AoE range. If I sat out of range, I'd end up getting mages or regain'ing melees hit by any AoEs that were aimed on me. That's no good.

On pretty much anything aside from lolCity T4s, adding damage is only a good thing. Lights are capped pretty easily, so there's really no reason for me to hold back on doing as much damage as possible on COR. Heck, on the runs we did last night I destroyed the parses on Pil, and was second-third most of the time on Kaggen. As long as lights are capped and we're not suddenly wiping because I'm pseudo-tanking sometimes, I don't really see the harm in it.

[noodles355]

That's fair enough. Though I never unload JA at the very start of a VW fight, I always save for the first red proc. Like you say you can get off a lot of WS, only really being limited by the time it takes to activate items and TP, which really helps capping lights faster. Kill speed is never as much of an issue on any VW really except Pil if you haven't got a good means to drop his Gambit quickly.

[Greatguardian]

It's not so much an issue of "Can we kill it in time?" as much as it is "Do I want to waste additional time going 0/1 billion on drops if we cap lights either way?" =P

[Seha]

So...back to original topic. I can't give actual numbers on the activation rate, but after playing a while with this roll on test server the results are quite underwhelming.

[Huevriel]

So we get this as last roll:

Sooo not satisfied, I really doubt my tanks will give a pup about this. Another roll that will hardly find use.

Really hope we get a new cool ja before the new merits at least. :<

Edit: we'll have to see how it turns out, but it'll have to be very high rate to be able to beat the tact+miser combo(and anyway only my pld in vw will care).

Parry Roll. Been asking it since the announcement of the level cap increase from 75. I think at the very least we'd love to see this for skill ups alone. Not asking for usefulness in party situations, but for those skill up parties.

[Mirabelle]

My activation rate in a quick test was 10% with Lucky up. (Just counted swings that connected ).