Thief's knife upgrade

[Kayri]

Please SE can you come up with Magian trials for the Thief's knife? I'm sure all Thiefs out there agree that holding on to this dagger is a hassle just because of the TH+1. With level cap in the 90s now, I think an upgrade is in order with some better power for this dagger that deserves to be more useful than just adding TH+1.

[noodles355]

Why did you feel the need to post a new topic? Are you blind? Did you not see the identical topic "A simple request for Thieves: An upgrade to Thief's Knife" that's currently sat right at the top of the damn forum? Or are you just trying to raise your postcount with useless posts?

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/13514-A-Simple-Request-from-Thieves-An-upgrade-to-Thief-s-Knife.

[Delvish]

Ah, that's funny. I was going to post in this thread after reading the main one about how not to count it out of the running yet, as the main thread is so off-topic now that it will soon be locked down. Mods are on their stuff because they beat me to it.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

It's just a random knife with a nice bonus. If they did upgrade it then people would just dual wield two knives with TH on it at the beginning of the battle.

Nothing warrants upgrading it.

[noodles355]

I retract my previous statement about using the old topic!

[Delvish]

That is something that was addressed in the main thread. Yes, a new or upgraded dagger would not solve the issue. We would require either augments to the current Dagger, a new dagger with anti-other knife latents, or a quest that turns the knife into a key item (and subsequently turning the knife into TH1 for all jobs).

As I was thinking about it, SE has been very fond of allowing power at a cost. I.e. our boots are certainly not TP worthy sans tanking, and our hands have no noteworthy bonuses to speak of. Maybe the substandard dagger is substandard on purpose? Man, I wish we had a dislike button so I could dislike that statement.

[noodles355]

It's just a random knife with a nice bonus. If they did upgrade it then people would just dual wield two knives with TH on it at the beginning of the battle.

Nothing warrants upgrading it.Hi there, thank you for contributing to the issue at hand without reading the previous topic where that issue was raised and discussed about at length with many different solutions to the issue raised. I could parrot aforemetions solutions, but to be frank, if you can't be bothered to read the damn thread then I can't be bothered to explain them to you.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Hi there, thank you for contributing to the issue at hand without reading the previous topic where that issue was raised and discussed about at length with many different solutions to the issue raised. I could parrot aforemetions solutions, but to be frank, if you can't be bothered to read the damn thread then I can't be bothered to explain them to you.

You mean the thread that was closed because it went so far off topic it wasn't funny?

Yeah, like I'm wasting my time shifting through a topic like that.

[noodles355]

Then feel free to continue to argue a dead point and be of no use to anyone.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Thoroughly love the pleasant people on here.. It's amazing, such kindness is unmatched....

That said: Feel free to argue over a knife that wont ever be upgraded.

[noodles355]

It's amazing, such kindness is unmatched....Are you new to the internet?

Feel free to argue over a knife that wont ever be upgraded.Gonna have to play the "Read the damn thread" thing again - another point discussed at length.

[Morgantisthedon]

Another thf dagger would be fine if they added. I'd duo wield them at start. I could deal with that or adding th to another piece of gear like a ring or similar for thf. That would make me happy. But not to be a troll or nothing, the dagger alone as it is I think is fine for what it does procs th. Same thing as a rabbit charm neck for macroing in for neck for steal etc. We use it when we want th that simple then swap. Sure you might lose some tp but you are using the knife for its effect not just because it has good stats. If the dagger was lvl 1 and had th we would still use it then swap.
Dont get me wrong at times I do hate off handing it and having to swap it. But overall game mechanics for it are fine. I am more intrested in a diffrent piece to be added even another thf knife so I could duo wield them or put anther item with th onto it so I could include that into my th macro.

[noodles355]

Jesus christ. Go read the damn thread before you start bringing up the same argumnts as have been bnrought up, countered, counter-countered and generally beaten into the ground for pages and pages previously.

[Phen]

Another thf dagger would be fine if they added. I'd duo wield them at start. I could deal with that or adding th to another piece of gear like a ring or similar for thf. That would make me happy. But not to be a troll or nothing, the dagger alone as it is I think is fine for what it does procs th. Same thing as a rabbit charm neck for macroing in for neck for steal etc. We use it when we want th that simple then swap. Sure you might lose some tp but you are using the knife for its effect not just because it has good stats. If the dagger was lvl 1 and had th we would still use it then swap.
Dont get me wrong at times I do hate off handing it and having to swap it. But overall game mechanics for it are fine. I am more intrested in a diffrent piece to be added even another thf knife so I could duo wield them or put anther item with th onto it so I could include that into my th macro.

Yet again: So your in dynamis after you cast your first spell on each mob as blue mage you reset all your spells and suffer the no spells penalty. Rinse and repeat for every monster you kill in dynamis. That sounds like a dumb idea doesnt it? Because you would be effectively setting back your damage by a lot. The lose of tp in situations where you kill multiple monsters for a job like thief hurts its capability in the same way. The reason the mechanic removes tp when you switch weapons is because the game specifically says dont do that. Yet for Thief you are supposed to do just that on everything you fight.

p.s. everyone Ad hominem attacks are what got the last thread locked not the discussion.

[Morgantisthedon]

I read the posts on there complet. I skimmed it if I thought there ideas where meh. btw So u lose what 10~20 tp... If you wanted can wait till u pop off your 1st wpn skill then swap if you where that worried about it when you switch.
Plus who uses blu in dyna ? I dont (I solo with bst when im bored but... thats unrelated to thf dagger I think). But if you wanted you could with blu same way with if im aoing and come run in to proc grellow a mob and got swap spells (both still can be done) The diffrence with blu is you have a set 1 min cooldown b4 you can cast again. Swapping wpns only meens you lose tp and no wait (if you had tp to start) That has no baring on a thf only dagger in refrence to blu. Just because my main job says blu on here isnt all my jobs btw i been playing thf for long time and was my 1st job ever to 75 back in the day.
Sure thf dagger could use updates. I understand that. Does it need it not realy all I was saying.
And before you decide to troll people I merely brought up a option to add a diffrent item. Nobody complaing any of the old items ever always just thf knife .... reason it gives th.

[Arcon]

Thoroughly love the pleasant people on here.. It's amazing, such kindness is unmatched....

Everyone's patience runs thin after a while. That thread was closed because of people like you, people who refuse to read/understand the issue at hand, yet keep posting. After a while things escalate. It's your fault.


I read the posts on there complet. I skimmed it if I thought there ideas where meh.

Those two statements are contradictory. Stop talking garbage. We explained several times and in painstaking detail why your arguments are bullshit. We also explained way too many times and in excrutiating detail why this was never the issue to begin with. Everyone here knows how TH works. Stop insulting our intelligence.

There is no way for us to put full TH on mobs without sacrificing major overall damage, even if you're swapping (probably even more if you're swapping than just fulltiming it in situations like Dynamis). So our choices are high TH or higher damage. Currently, Thief's Knife is not worth equipping at all in some situations due to the enhanced killspeed yielding more drops than using a Thief's Knife would, swapping or not. Which makes this dagger a pure frustration. The math is all there, in the other thread. If you're too lazy to read it all, I understand, but then stop wasting our and the mods' time with this crap and just don't post at all.

I kinda pray for the mods to close this thread too so people can stop spreading bullshit.

[Morgantisthedon]

I have a right for my opnion and I know what I am talking about. If you want th on a good wpn ask them to incoperate it on mandau or twastar or the mythic one for 99 verison. Redoing old wpns is a mute point. And yes i skim people who posts are by lvl 1 mules or has no refrence or dont know what they talking about. Just because you can post doesnt meen you know what you are talking about. Its was ment to be a objective way to lvling th if SE needed incoperate it into something else. Stop beating old gear wpns with upgrades. Simple and fact if that was case we be adding trials to tons gear and almost every wpn in game.
Plus i hope a monerator closes this because what i say has merrit and just because i dont agree with what was said doesnt meen cussing or bashing of players. Plus its perticulary frown upon from my understanding. Shows how much of communication skills some players have.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Everyone's patience runs thin after a while. That thread was closed because of people like you, people who refuse to read/understand the issue at hand, yet keep posting. After a while things escalate. It's your fault.

That thread was closed because it wasn't on topic, don't kid yourself.

I'm not reading a 25 page thread (that was closed) to see if my comment would be answered first in a thread separate to the OP. This thread is NOT the other one!

[Greatguardian]

I have a right for my opnion and I know what I am talking about. If you want th on a good wpn ask them to incoperate it on mandau or twastar or the mythic one for 99 verison. Redoing old wpns is a mute point. And yes i skim people who posts are by lvl 1 mules or has no refrence or dont know what they talking about. Just because you can post doesnt meen you know what you are talking about. Its was ment to be a objective way to lvling th if SE needed incoperate it into something else. Stop beating old gear wpns with upgrades. Simple and fact if that was case we be adding trials to tons gear and almost every wpn in game.
Plus i hope a monerator closes this because what i say has merrit and just because i dont agree with what was said doesnt meen cussing or bashing of players. Plus its perticulary frown upon from my understanding. Shows how much of communication skills some players have.

I thought this was ironic. Is English your first language?

[Morgantisthedon]

I never said i type good ~.* Simple fact is I dont use lewd or abusive or slang language. But yes my typing skills are sub - par at best. I normaly use vent or 360 chat. Been the on going joke I type in morganese in my ls and static for mutiple years. LOL .
Guess that is what happens when watching 3 screens same time :)

[Arcon]

That thread was closed because it wasn't on topic, don't kid yourself.

I know, how is that different to what I said? Why wasn't it on-topic? Because of people who don't wanna read/understand what the issue is and comment with worthless opinions and we get frustrated of explaining over and over again what the issue is. And then you have people who, even after explaining the issue, still don't get it and try to defend their position. Then either they won't admit they were wrong because of their undeserved pride or they just don't understand it because of their inferior intellect, and keep retorting, as if this was a matter of opinion. From there it escalates, and that's why that thread was closed, and it's precisely where this one is headed, probably for the best.


I'm not reading a 25 page thread (that was closed) to see if my comment would be answered first in a thread separate to the OP. This thread is NOT the other one!

Yes, it just has the same title, is about the same topic and the same people talk in it. But the thread ID is different, that's right.


Incoming 2nd locked Thief's Knife thread.

One can only hope at this point.

[Karbuncle]

Its a shame when the absolute stupidity and ignorance of a few people can cause intelligent problem solving and solution making into a bickering cesspool of ignorant babble.

You know who I'm talking too, and you should feel ashamed of yourselves. Its one thing to simply not understand a problem, Its another thing entirely to smear this lack of understand up and down an otherwise constructive thread to the point it becomes locked.

The solutions in the previous thread are still there to view, and the final one we all pretty much agreed upon would still be the best bet. Its not that long of a thread, And theres a lot of interesting debates in there. If you can't take the time to educate yourself properly please do not spend the remaining time bathing in your ignorance and splashing it on others for the sake of drawing attention to yourself.

Much appreciated.


Incoming 2nd locked Thief's Knife thread.

Edit: And for those too daft to read even the OP of the first thread,




This is the current Best solution. If you can't understand why, I can already imagine how you play THF, and I hate the color Pink.

Edit2: To explain it simply. Thief, While not a Magnificent DD, Is still at heart a DD. We TH, And we want to TH, but we dont want our TH to be a burden to us. The Thief's Knife is a level 70 Weapon, its outdated in every right. The problem is using this Weapon hurts out DoT. In places like Dynamis and what have you where DoT/DPS Is quite important, Sacrificing our Damage for more TH is just a choice we should have to make.

Should a WHM have to chose between Regen, or Cure? Haste or Cure? No

Should a RDM have to chose between Convert and Refresh? no

In the same light, I Feel Thief should not have to chose between Treasure Hunter, or Damage.

We should be able to put on a Mandau/Coruscanti combo and be able to still get our Full TH power as it is. The problem is merely the weapon, Our other pieces are fine. The issue is a weapon is not easily swapped out, because of the lose of TP. So in places like Dynamis where mobs come and go quickly, You're forced a choice between Lowering your Damage, and thus, Currency output, or Lowering your TH, and chancing less currency output.

Other situations would for instance be farming pop items for Abyssea NMs (for t1's etc), and so forth.

Now, the reason the above is an issue in the first place is because its not always our choice to decide of we want full TH, or Full DD. THF Is forced to go Full TH, Linkshells or what have you. The job itself is based around this in the eyes of the community. We're merely asking that, if we are to be Treasure hunters through and through, That we can at least maintain our role as that and still contribute to the damage of the party. To feel useful outside of Treasure hunter.

And so forth I hope that makes more sense.

Edit?: Also, Noodles, Cut back a tiny bit on the cursing. It hurts my head too, But no use getting yourself Banned friend.

[Morgantisthedon]

IT seems people on here dont know how to communicate w/o cussing or personal attacking people.
Yes I do know the game, yes i have been playing forever. Yes my main was thief for a long time. Have my posts been rude or attacking people .... No. This is where you and others I pay little attention to and disregard your post. Because your post has no meaning for me and I dunno why a SE moderator doesnt ban you for personal attacks or cussing. Hello this isnt wikki or ffxiah.com. Its the offical forums where actions can be taken against you. Sometime players forget that and need to be reminded. Or you just dont care in which sure go ahead flame on and continue to be disrespectul and rude. I might type bad but I do have points in what I am saying.


All i said is incoperperating a update and change to any old wpn or armour woud issue in a whole slue of people wanting to update other non important pieces for everything. Adding a second wpn dagger would just meen people duo wield it.
Various option could be done to improve it remove it sure. Chances are this will never happen. At most i could see the "rare" from it removed. This would alllow some for of update from FoV elite fights if anything.

I just dont agree with upgrading this via trials. As stated before this would open up people wanting this and that all updated. As I said it is fine for what it does adds th. At the cost of a minor loss in damage and a w/e offhand wpn thats sub par at best. But used soley for the perpose of th.
There is no reason to hate
Dont be a internet hero and try to verbaly assult me or trash me because what I say doesnt back with what you want. I offered diffrent options for coming up with other solutions on the idea.

Karbuncle I read your post after I was typing up mine. The latent effect is awsome on that ring btw. This is why i said add the option to something outside of wpn to a diffrent piece of gear in previous post.
I do agree that ring is what we need or somethign similar.
That is something I can go for. Its not a weapon and is fine so it fits perfect with exactly what thf knife needs. (basicaly just not used lol) Just be removed and implemented somewhere else.
I actually think I missed your edit on page one when I read and missed some pages for some my readings was hard to filter some that out so i do appologize on that note i got ADD and my attention span is short.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Should a WHM have to chose between Regen, or Cure? Haste or Cure? No

Should a RDM have to chose between Convert and Refresh? no

In the same light, I Feel Thief should not have to chose between Treasure Hunter, or Damage.

Those are not even the same. Wielding a Thief's Knife only helps with your natural job trait, whether you wear it or not you can still gain the same TH with or without it, it'll just take longer to build it up over time.

Gaining their traits on weapons, armour and accessories isn't something only THF suffers, loads of equipment grants similar effects for many jobs. As you level it just becomes outdated and no longer gets used.

While I do think perhaps THF should have gained possibly another TH piece. Stating a Knife that is exactly the same as any other "trait enhancing piece" requires an update simply because it's TH is silly. Comparing a piece of equipment that enhances a trait but does not remove it to a spell/JA is absurd.

[Karbuncle]

Those are not even the same. Wielding a Thief's Knife only helps with your natural job trait, whether you wear it or not you can still gain the same TH with or without it, it'll just take longer to build it up over time.

While this I agree with, a philosphy i myself hold too, thus, I don't use a Thief's Knife when I'm in control.

Not everyone agrees with your mindset. If you continued reading, You saw i said "The reason this is a big problem is because we as a THF community are forced to use this such weapon by the leaders of shells and what have you".

Because the leader wants the best TH, and you may even get the Leader who feels the need to make you full time the gear.

Yah, If he does that, He's pretty dumb, But in a game revolving around team work, You either listen, Or you deal with shout groups, or don't get content done.

And shout groups might even fall back under the first problem. The only reason, again, this is an issue, Is because its forced on us.

We as a Community know and understand our roles, Treasure Hunter, But we do have the secondary role of DD, Hate control, What have you. What We, or I, Am asking is to be able to fullfill those goals without this 1 Particular limitation. I'm not asking to remove TH, Add 1 Mega-TH Item, or anything of the sort. What i ask is this 1 Item that binds us to be removed or replaced in some manor that won't effect our jobs other aspects. including DD.

Can i admit my examples were a bit extreme? Yah. Are they "not the same"? No. Curing and Hasting are two aspects of WHM, Dealing Damage and Treasure Hunter are THFs two aspects of it. While i stretched it to the extreme, I stand by my example in its most basic meaning.

THF is being forced to perform one task which robs it of efficiency in another task. And yes, It is forced if we ever want to enjoy playing our favorite jobs. As a THF community, to those of us who hold THF as our Favorite job, Who go as far as to get Relics for it, And so on, We enjoy playing the job, We don't mind being TH Whores, But we do mind being forced to impact our Damage for the sake of that trait.

We only ask this one thorn in our side be removed. We're not asking for anything else. Can you say you cannot see the simplicity and logic behind such a request?


Gaining their traits on weapons, armour and accessories isn't something only THF suffers

This wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't a weapon, No one complains about Assassin Armlets, or Raider's Poullaines, Its just the weapon, and even that would not be anywhere near an issue if it wasn't for the fact we are forced to wear this, or forced to not go to events as that job.

While maybe this is not something you feel, Its common place for linkshell leaders and what have you to do such things to a Thief.


loads of equipment grants similar effects for many jobs. As you level it just becomes outdated and no longer gets used.

True, Thief's Knife however is terribly outdated, But still we are forced to use it. Think of it like... You know, I can't even give you a good Comparison, Because there isn't one that accurately represents the situation here.

It would be like if MNK Couldn't use counterstance unless he was wearing a pair of Cross-Counters. So in order to tank effectively, He'd had to stop using his Vereth and switch to Cross-counters. Thats the best i can come up with.

Would MNKs not be saying "This is unacceptable, Can we please change this to be on something other than a weapon?" As we are now?

You as your lovely Level 6 Monk, If you could not use Counterstance unless you were wearing an Outdated weapon, would you not be asking SE for a change or replacement to that in the form of Armor instead of weaponry?

I mean, You still get ~10% Counter from the Job Trait, as THF Still gets TH5 from Other places, But you couldn't do it as effectively as you should.

a MNK Wouldn't be invited to Tank with no Counterstance (hypothetically), and a THF Won't be invited to the party unless he has TH6. Because you can be replaced with someone who does have it.

Is it not true Counterstance only helps the Natural job Trait Counter, as a Thief's Knife only helps the Natural job trait TH?

So Hopefully that hypothetical example landed a bit closer to home. Its basic meaning is, "We're asked to do this, Or we're not invited", so what we want is "To be able to do this, as well as perform our best as a DD, But not equipping a now 25 levels outdated weapon".

I understand the natural lust or need some of you must have to argue with someone over the internet, But this request is far from absurd, and if any of you were in a similar position with your favorite jobs, I dare you to say you would not be looking for a solution to the problem at hand.

Its a tiny improvement to the job, But an improvement no less. It would take mere moments to put in a Ring like i described above, and SE would have fixed a thorn in the side of every THF.

TL;DR:




For the record, This isn't all entirely directed at you Quoted man. I tend to babble in a generalized way sometimes.

Okay always

[Arcon]

IT seems people on here dont know how to communicate w/o cussing or personal attacking people.

We know how and we do it every day. But not to everyone, and maybe that should be a sign to you. Do you think we don't like you because you disagree with us? Or because you can't type well? No, disagreeing is fine, and sadly good typing isn't required at all to use the internet. Plenty of people disagree with trial upgrades, me too. I also disagree with Karby about the ring, and I'm not giving him a hard time about it either.

No, we don't like you because you're like a kid putting his fingers in his ears and screaming, not hearing or wanting to hear what we have to say. It's one thing to have a different opinion, it's another to have your facts wrong. We can and will call you out on that, for example, like you just said in the same post, that it's a "minor loss of damage". That's wrong, it's a signifcant loss of damage, and it will get a lot worse over time.

If a Lv30 Double Attack piece is overshadowed by a Lv90 Haste piece, people will use that instead. However, people still use lower level pieces that are useful in certain situations (think of various jobs' artifact armor), the solution to that is macroing. And normally, macroing gear has no drawback to normal battle performance, however in this one single case it does, because in this case, you will lose TP if you macro it all the time. Losing TP, however, is not related to TH, it's so people don't abuse different weapons to increase the TP gain phase and the WS phase at the same time. The TH effect on the Thief's Knife simply suffers from a game mechanic that doesn't have anything at all to do with it. It's an innocent bystander. That's why it's special and deserves special attention.


Those are not even the same. Wielding a Thief's Knife only helps with your natural job trait, whether you wear it or not you can still gain the same TH with or without it, it'll just take longer to build it up over time.

This is horribly misleading. First of all, not all mobs will give you enough time to build it up to the same level at all. Especially going back to our farming scenario, mobs will usually die before you get a single TH upgrade. And secondly, if you do get an upgrade, that would mean that with Thief's Knife, you would still be one ahead. So the formally correct statement would be, you can not match the same TH effect without a Thief's Knife.


TL;DR:




/rage

[Morgantisthedon]

Hey Arcon i got question for you since we both on same page for a better th dagger in some way. Wouldnt incoperating another Dagger simlar to treasure hunter+1 as a finshed product for any current trial maginal wpn be acceptable? Even added to relic and mythic and emperian or any elemental path.
In theroy we could custom fit our dagger to how we want it not be stuck with a set lv 70 one or with iffy stats on a dagger we dont like how its built.

The only issues i see with this is SE allowing both to be worn.

A) having a lentent of " TH on it"( which only applies to if your main job is set to thief). As some the daggers are weildable by dnc and brd also.
This could also be a welcomed added update for more th on those 2 jobs also if SE deemed acceptable since thf still will be the top dog in the TH department. If they dont add the lantent



So I came up with a sollution. Take the latent effect off the ring and add it to the maginal trial for 99 be it for any wpn. In theory it would allow you to build the dagger of your liking and add TH onto it.

The issue with the above I see though would be the following
A) only allowing one wpn with the said TH attribute to be allowed to be wore at once. This is of course would work if SE deems it ok to duo wield them. Then woudlnt matter.
We would then see mutiple th in on and off hand. Both would have stats we would enjoy and to our liking and be able to have a specific wpn we wont have to swap.

B) If Se deems duo weilding 2 set wpns with th is to much. Maybe incoperate" latent: of does not stack other TH+ wpns "?

Maybe by doing this would show merrit to why theif dagger is lvl 70 and we leave it in the dust instead trying to upgrade it Now we can just do the wpn we like and build it how we want then add TH as final trial at 99.

[Delvish]

TL;DR:





Rofl.

TIL, that posts need to be more than 10 characters.

[Vold]

TL;DR:




That's very good I'm going to use that.

[SpankWustler]

Because the leader wants the best TH, and you may even get the Leader who feels the need to make you full time the gear.

Maybe I'm just spoiled from only doing stuff with friends recently, but my brain just refuses to believe that anyone so misinformed would be allowed to lead anything by anyone else. My heart, however, pumps the darkest ichor of pessimism and tells me that such a thing has happened and will happen again. I am unsure which vital organ to believe, and my stomach refuses to break the tie because I had mixed vegetables for dinner.

Expounding on how much worse Thief's Knife has gotten compared to it's effect on damage at level 75, soon there will be Assassin's Armlets +2 with Treasure Hunter +2, unless a last-minute change is made. More Treasure Hunter in a slot that is infinitely less awful. How, again, is Thief's Knife okay?

[Karbuncle]

Maybe I'm just spoiled from only doing stuff with friends recently, but my brain just refuses to believe that anyone so misinformed would be allowed to lead anything by anyone else. My heart, however, pumps the darkest ichor of pessimism and tells me that such a thing has happened and will happen again. I am unsure which vital organ to believe, and my stomach refuses to break the tie because I had mixed vegetables for dinner.

Expounding on how much worse Thief's Knife has gotten compared to it's effect on damage at level 75, soon there will be Assassin's Armlets +2 with Treasure Hunter +2, unless a last-minute change is made. More Treasure Hunter in a slot that is infinitely less awful. How, again, is Thief's Knife okay?

I don't know how exactly to answer this, Because I'm not sure the question or if its even a question at me >_> but even Asslets getting +2 TH Still means We'll get a base of +7 and be forced to Deepthroat that level 70 Abomination.

But yah... There leader out there that stupid. I've met a few. Not for long mind you, as when I'm being lead by a moron i generally seek out a new shell as fast as possible.

[Lokithor]

Here is a summary of on-topic points from the other thread.


The current TH's knife forces Thf to use a weapon that has fallen way behind damage consistent with the higher levels.
Swapping out the knife to use an appropriate damage weapon after applying TH to a mob negatively affects damage as you lose TP. No other job is forced to gimp their damage in this way.
Thf's do NOT want another weapon with TH on it as this would force Thfs to use both weapons, making the matter even worse (with the possible exception of a new weapon whose TH only works when Thf's knife is not equipped).
Options to fix this include:

Raising the damage level of the existing knife by some means (magian, etc).
Transferring the TH effect to a swappable piece of gear by giving that new piece of gear a latent effect where its TH is only active when the TH's knife is not equipped.
Removing the loss of TP when you swap any weapon in your off hand. This is my preference as it would also add lots of interesting options for dual wielders.



So, if you have anything else to add, go for it. If not, gtfo this thread.

[Morgantisthedon]

I wanted to respond to the above statement
No other job is forced to gimp their damage in this way
Nobody is forcing a thf to wear this knife. We do so to help bring our TH up on a mob. Sure it can be a pain but we do it to help for the better ment of the group. It doesnt have to be wore it is decided to be worn. This is key to understanding it we wear it for a effect.
I listed some examples of jobs and how they get gimped on tp (for weapons basicaly and when you would)

Abby
Blue procs or Red procs- this affects various jobs from nin to war to many others. But yet we do it out necissaty if something is wanted. Is it needed ? Not realy more so desired. I have yet to hear anyone complain I lost such such tp when they where asked swap to a wpn for helping this.

VW
Same as abby we do the above because its for the betterment of the group when a cetain wpn is needed to proc a hq or low quality proc.

Pulling. Sometimes it better to swap on the ole evasion or put on the pdt wpn. When it is needed for the situation. Many time I have just used those and swapped back @ camp.

Mnk chi blast building. rarely used but I have done it and lost tp when they said stay off the mob and chi blast so i tossed on a mnd + staff/ Or when I pulled to many and I need to do cata to some mobs. Anther thing is i will swap my wpn for chakra build.

Blu - various uses when we choose the option of a elemental staff swap for more damage to buff our spells from using my swords or swapping to a pdt build. Or when I need swap my fast cast sword on when I keep getting interupted.

Sch i have been dding and swapped to diffrent ele staff or my sublimination staff many times when the need arises

Bst when my pet needed healing. I thought not for a second to toss on my reward axes to feed my pet.

Ranger. If i had my staff on and a mob came close to me i had the option to run or toss on some daggers or sword to dispatch or kite. Or I pulled to much hate and had swap evasion daggers on to live.

Pld I have swapped my main wpns along with other gear to give me a boost in various stats, enimity ,vitality ,pdt etc.


Smn- to get the effect I want from diffrent avatars I choose. I will swap mid fight if needed for that avatar even if dding sometimes.

There is tons more options out there of what would benefit you swapping your weapon out for the desired effect not just thf knife.
This is the idea of swapping why it is done for wpns. You want a effect from a wpn be it anything. From plus enimity - enimity , stat boost, fast cast, reward etc etc I belive this same concept is used for thf knife.
Could it use a upgrade of course. Dose it need one not realy. I did purpose various other ways of doing it also if that was route choosen
Dont get me wrong I love thf. I just know what the benfits of swapping wpns are. Some good some bad but we get desired results from the wpn we use it why we do. I wish they would upgrade alot stuff dont get me wrong. If SE where to allow alone the thf knife to be updated they would have to allow each job w/ mutiple wpns and gear to do so. The reason is people are passionate about thief and it erks them to do so. Alot jobs swap weapons when the need arises is all. Trust me I feel same way but I know why and understand the dynamics of the job and how and why it is done same with all the above reasons we lose tp .

Would upgrading the th knife would be awsome ... definatly and I would welcome it open arms in any form.
Sadly it isnt 100% needed. Its surves it purpose for when I put it on. Thats reason why we wear it or not wear it.

[Karbuncle]

Well, one thing, If you ever want to go to a LS Event on THF, You are going to be "forced' to wear a Thief's Knife, or forced to chose a different job. With most Linkshells anyway.

Unless your LS leader is particularly understanding/Intelligent.

Its an unfortunate truth for many Thieves out there. We have a choice, for sure, but its between Listening, Or not playing THF in group settings. Not very fun of a choice.

[Lokithor]

Maybe I should have said something "intelligent" to add. Someone who uses smn and sch melee weapons swaps as an equivalent example would clearly not meet that requirement. My apologies to everyone for my omission.

[Insaniac]

The problem with all of his examples is that the trade off is battle related. It's for the purpose of either doing more damage in that situation or making a fight go more smoothly. I use an evasion kila sometimes and I have no problem with it even though it lowers my damage. If a blu did more total damage by not swapping to elemental staves for w/e reason then that BLU would not swap to those staves. I would have no problem on PLD switching between and ochain and aegis mid battle and losing TP if I needed to because the fight called for it. The difference is clear. Thief's Knife gives a miniscule non battle related boost for huge cuts in DPS and people expect you to use it because they believe a 1% increase in drops is better than killing 10% more mobs over time.

[Arcon]

I wanted to respond to the above statement
No other job is forced to gimp their damage in this way
Nobody is forcing a thf to wear this knife. We do so to help bring our TH up on a mob. Sure it can be a pain but we do it to help for the better ment of the group. It doesnt have to be wore it is decided to be worn. This is key to understanding it we wear it for a effect.
I listed some examples of jobs and how they get gimped on tp (for weapons basicaly and when you would)

All those example are for NM fights. But that's not what this is about. I don't think anyone here will complain that on NMs you lose some TP as a one time thing. It's a problem if you are farming. Dynamis is really the best example, actually even inside Abyssea when you're farming for NM triggers. You have mobs that die in seconds, but farming is the one sole objective, so you want maximum TH. Swapping out weapons all the time would be a severe overall damage loss. Just using a Thief's Knife fulltime would also be a damage loss, though not quite as high, but still to a degree that using the knife itself is a bad idea. Hence, it defeats its own purpose with the low damage rating it has.

[Zirael]

Maybe I'm just spoiled from only doing stuff with friends recently, but my brain just refuses to believe that anyone so misinformed would be allowed to lead anything by anyone else. My heart, however, pumps the darkest ichor of pessimism and tells me that such a thing has happened and will happen again. I am unsure which vital organ to believe, and my stomach refuses to break the tie because I had mixed vegetables for dinner.

Expounding on how much worse Thief's Knife has gotten compared to it's effect on damage at level 75, soon there will be Assassin's Armlets +2 with Treasure Hunter +2, unless a last-minute change is made. More Treasure Hunter in a slot that is infinitely less awful. How, again, is Thief's Knife okay?
Absolute Virtue/Pandemonium Warden/Kirin/whatever zergfests take 90s max. I'd very much rather wield Mandau/Twash and ride aftermath in those kinds of fights. It's like asking your Ukonsavara WAR to open fights with 300TP Full Break - it's helpful for the rest of the alliance after all. And I bet you'd get gtfo slammed right into your face tho. And whilst WARs and any other DDs are allowed to use their strongest weapons, when you join a fight which takes several milion gil or several days to get prepared, I find it very much reasonable from the pop holder to expect from a THF to use their strongest TH effect right from the start. There is no such thing as building TH on Absolute Virtue or anything in Dynamis etc. In abyssea and voidwatch Thief Knife might not be an issue (because TH+1 doesn't matter) but anywhere else it still drags us to the very bottom of parse barrel.

[Greatguardian]

I guess I'm one of those rare and understanding leaders, then. Screw Thief's Knife.

[Arcon]

I guess I'm one of those rare and understanding leaders, then. Screw Thief's Knife.

You make it sound sarcastic, but the "rare and understanding" part is actually true. Not many people know how useless it actually is.

[Sappho]

Not to be insensitive to the delicate nature of the question, but is there a reason Thief's Knife cannot be augmented via the Fields of Valor Elite NM?

[Greatguardian]

You make it sound sarcastic, but the "rare and understanding" part is actually true. Not many people know how useless it actually is.

It's not my intention to be ironic or sarcastic. I just didn't realize it was that rare. Thief's Knife is garbage. How is someone so misinformed as to force thieves to wear it allowed in a leadership role in a first place? Is this really so common, even for the BG posters here?

Should probably ask if the Paladins are required to wear CHR for voke and face NorthWest during a full moon while casting Flash, too.

[Sappho]

Should probably ask if the Paladins are required to wear CHR for voke and face NorthWest during a full moon while casting Flash, too.

Not sure about that one, but you definitely gotta face south when desynthing using a lightning crystal or your head will explode.

[Sappho]

I guess I'm one of those rare and understanding leaders, then. Screw Thief's Knife.

With the "new" proc ability that a thief has to increase TH, are either the Thief's Knife or the AF2 hands really a "must have?"

[Greatguardian]

With the "new" proc ability that a thief has to increase TH, are either the Thief's Knife or the AF2 hands really a "must have?"

Not really. Throwing on AAs for one round is a lot less detrimental than throwing on Thief's Knife and resetting your TP (or trashing your DPS) every fight, though.

[Sappho]

Not really. Throwing on AAs for one round is a lot less detrimental than throwing on Thief's Knife and resetting your TP (or trashing your DPS) every fight, though.

I see your point and raise you a ^^

[Babekeke]

Not to be insensitive to the delicate nature of the question, but is there a reason Thief's Knife cannot be augmented via the Fields of Valor Elite NM?

Been a while since I did these, but iirc you couldn't trade any rare items.

[Scribble]

It's pointless to upgrade the Thief's Knife anyway. THF is mainly around for TH and for that, this dagger still serves it's purpose. Why bother with trials?

[Arcon]

It's pointless to upgrade the Thief's Knife anyway. THF is mainly around for TH and for that, this dagger still serves it's purpose. Why bother with trials?

Why bother with reading a thread? Why bother with having half a brain? Apparently you can live just fine without.

[Karbuncle]

Why bother with reading a thread? Why bother with having half a brain? Apparently you can live just fine without.

I was going to say something to him, But i realized he's got RDM listed, We should pity him, at least THF still has a slim spot in any endgame, TH Whore or not.

RDM needs help.


I guess I'm one of those rare and understanding leaders, then. Screw Thief's Knife.

What Arcon Said, Also, Even us from BG do in fact have to deal with pee-brained Leader. Quite unfortunately most if not all of the good Linkshells are full, and the ones left you can't really be picky about if you are ever wanting to accomplish anything, especially with the VoidWatch Era and my hatred for pick up groups.

So yah, Its not a pressing issue for all Thieves, just most... or some.

Either way, Fu*k the knife, Just give us a Armor with Laten Effect: TH+1 with no THF Knife equipped so i can toss my dagger for good. Only time i put it on is at tbe beginning of Longer fights/1-time Battles (For instance, Voidwatch, or Fafnir/Etc).

PS: I like my current LS but they're about as social as a room of dead people.

[Scribble]

I was going to say something to him, But i realized he's got RDM listed, We should pity him, at least THF still has a slim spot in any endgame, TH Whore or not.

I updated my long outdated profile to show that I am now a WHM. Being that I am now relevant to endgame, my opinion feels much heavier already. In fact, I feel the need to displace some of that weight in this, the second of two lame threads both of which are apparently about inventory space; yet another thing that THF does better than RDM.

You win. I've had a change of heart. After staring at your sig I got all warm and fuzzy and decided that the knife definitely needs to be upgraded. Consider this post as my signature on the petition to increase the effect of the knife to placebo +2 and to redistribute the loot wealth.

OccupyUggalepih... Mic Check!!

[Karbuncle]

I updated my long outdated profile to show that I am now a WHM. Being that I am now relevant to endgame, my opinion feels much heavier already. In fact, I feel the need to displace some of that weight in this, the second of two lame threads both of which are apparently about inventory space; yet another thing that THF does better than RDM.

You win. I've had a change of heart. After staring at your sig I got all warm and fuzzy and decided that the knife definitely needs to be upgraded. Consider this post as my signature on the petition to increase the effect of the knife to placebo +2 and to redistribute the loot wealth.

OccupyUggalepih... Mic Check!!

Don't be so sensitive,

While i admit, its really is amusing how easily you fly off the handle like that, Especially when my comment had no malicious intent behind it. RDM is truly a terrible job in need of help. You taking it personally is an unintended side effect, Though it can't be helped now.

I won't lie there was a touch of sarcasm in my statement but really now, overreact much?

[Scribble]

I don't take any offense at all. I'm not sure how you arrived at the conclusion that I flew off the handle or that I'm sensitive. I'm not mad bro. I just see more irony than sarcasm in your post.

Bottom line is that a knife that serves it's purpose doesn't need to be upgraded to a knife that serves the same purpose, especially when that purpose is inventory -1. The word of the day is prioritize.

[Karbuncle]

I don't take any offense at all. I'm not sure how you arrived at the conclusion that I flew off the handle or that I'm sensitive. I'm not mad bro. I just see more irony than sarcasm in your post.

Bottom line is that a knife that serves it's purpose doesn't need to be upgraded to a knife that serves the same purpose, especially when that purpose is inventory -1. The word of the day is prioritize.

The whole dramatic effect of you "Seeing the error of your ways", or "Change of heart" and what not is where i got that conclusion. Seemed awfully upset. But if you say you aren't. Who i am to disagree?

BTW, just a minor correction really, It has absolutely nothing to do with it being Inventory-1, Its the fact its a terribly gimp outdated 25 soon to be 29 levels behind weapon we are still forced to wear.

and it wouldn't even be "inv -1" seeing as how Dagger is already Inv-1, so a Ring replacing the dagger would technically be inv-0 since the Dagger would no longer be useful.

Or something.

Which, while acceptable on a job not focused around TP, Is quite unacceptable for a Melee job. It does serve it purpose, No ones debating that, Its the cost of that purpose that is in question.

We, or I and those like me, Simply believe THF as a job is giving up too much to accommodate for Treasure Hunter. SE used TH As an Excuse to not give Thief Subtle Blow. Their reasoning was "Since you melee to upgrade TH, Subtle blow is too unbalanced" (or something...?). We as a job have suffered due to Treasure Hunter. Its both a Gift, and a Curse. The Trait keeps us alive endgame, But also kills us in the same regard.

We're asking for just 1 Nail in the Coffin (Thief's Knife Hit to our DPS) to be removed. Really not that much of a problem is it?

[Scribble]

The whole dramatic effect of you "Seeing the error of your ways", or "Change of heart" and what not is where i got that conclusion. Seemed awfully upset. But if you say you aren't. Who i am to disagree?

Sarcasm.

Addendum to your correction:

Thief's Knife was outdated long before level cap increase. It's never been a great weapon for a thief.


so a Ring replacing the dagger would technically be inv-0 since the Dagger would no longer be useful
C'mon now, simple math...

1 - 1 + 1 = ?


We're asking for just 1 Nail in the Coffin (Thief's Knife Hit to our DPS) to be removed. Really not that much of a problem is it?
No, it isn't that much of a problem. I'm guessing you'll probably see one at 99.

Unless it's being required by your LS, thieves are gimping their dps of their own accord. It's a choice you make to sacrifice your personal dps for an increase in drop rate. You yourself say that you "Give up too much for Treasure Hunter" so obviously you feel that the value of TH isn't worth it. Why bother?

[FrankReynolds]

I don't see how anyone could come in here and argue against TK being fixed / replaced other than just wanting to piss off thieves. There is really no downside to it. It would hurt no one.

[Greatguardian]

I'd rather see TH5-10 fixed first, personally. As is, the difference is so minute that it rarely makes a difference at all, let alone one that is worth the loss in kill speed.

[Scribble]

I don't see how anyone could come in here and argue against TK being fixed / replaced other than just wanting to piss off thieves. There is really no downside to it. It would hurt no one.

I agree, but there really isn't any upside to it either. There are already other weapons you can(and should) use to increase your DPS.

[Brolic]

I don't see how anyone could come in here and argue against TK being fixed / replaced other than just wanting to piss off thieves. There is really no downside to it. It would hurt no one.
i'm mad that my ptd sword doesn't out dd my almace

[FrankReynolds]

I agree, but there really isn't any upside to it either. There are already other weapons you can(and should) use to increase your DPS.

That have Treasure hunter +1?!? wow!!!! This is great news. Oh... wait..... your just a troll.

The upside is that people get their Placebo hunter +1 and I don't have to deal with a crappy dagger to do it. It's pretty clear by the heated debates, that this thing annoys the crap out of a lot of people. In all of the pages thus far, I have yet to see anyone post a reason against it that didn't boil down to "I just don't want thieves to have their cake and eat it too".

[FrankReynolds]

i'm mad that my ptd sword doesn't out dd my almace

I'm mad that your a galka. Who cares what you think? What does that even have to do with thief knife? and again? How does a change to Thief Knife effect that?

[Arcon]

i'm mad that my ptd sword doesn't out dd my almace

Duh, you're Galka. You're all mad.

[Scribble]

The upside is that people get their Placebo hunter +1 and I don't have to deal with a crappy dagger to do it. It's pretty clear by the heated debates, that this thing annoys the crap out of a lot of people. In all of the pages thus far, I have yet to see anyone post a reason against it that didn't boil down to "I just don't want thieves to have their cake and eat it too".

I'm not against it. As a matter of fact I'm almost certain it will come along in a future update. I just don't see why people feel it's so important. It does nearly nothing for you aside from increasing your DPS which, again, can be achieved already. Why bother?

Why not work on some abilities or changing mechanics for THF that push it further away from being pigeon-holed into the TH whore? I don't get it. Most of the people here arguing in favor of an upgrade are also staunch advocates for de-mystifying TH so they can actually participate in LS events beyond poking a mob every 30 seconds.

FYI having a differing opinion from someone regardless of whether or not that person is in the minority or not doesn't make them a troll. Everything I have said here is on topic, is logical and backs up my position on the topic.

[Lokithor]

Scribble, your posts seem to be deliberate trolling. You know that the prevalent perception of TH is that the highest degree of TH must be applied to any mob that is being fought for drops. As far as most in this game are concerned, the only purpose for Thief is TH - regardless of whether it is really a placebo or not.

There is not another single job in the game that is expected (more like REQUIRED) to equip a specific, single piece of gear for every fight. That piece of gear limits us from our other potential. All we want is to have that limit removed.

In your post above you state that we can increase our DPS (by refusing to use the thief's knife). For many thieves, this would get them kicked from events.

You also say we should work on abilities that push us away from only TH whore. We all agree! However, we are limited in what we can do while continuing to be shackled to that one damn dagger.

I'm glad that you have a different perception regarding how important that extra +1 of TH is. The fact is, you are a very small minority in that view (I happen to share it btw). I think it is far easier to remove limitations due to the current thief's knife than it is to change the perception of 99% of the playing community.

[Arcon]

[..] I don't get it. [..]

That about sums up your post. Not being insulting, it's not your fault. The fact is, a lot is wrong with THF. And a lot has been discussed already, however, it's scattered throughout many a thread, with many an idiot coming along and posting garbage, then derailed the respective threads. It happened so much, it's hard to filter out what's productive and what's just flame war between disagreeing parties (and, sadly not too rarely, also agreeing parties).

To answer some of your questions:

Why not work on some abilities or changing mechanics for THF that push it further away from being pigeon-holed into the TH whore?

Yeah, why not? Do you think any of us would mind that? We have suggested and begged SE for years to do something about this, because let's face it, we've never been much more than TH whores (and occasionally Charby tanks). Abyssea was our brief moment of glory, when we could tank and DD on par (using that term very loosely in this context) with comparable tanks. But now we're in the same spot we were before. Did SE do something about it? Well, let's sum up the changes SE has applied to THF in the last few years:
- Dual Wield. A godsend. Yet, borderline useless, because it's such a low tier. It still almost dictates /NIN. While /WAR is feasible, it's not a major boost (if any, often even a loss), at a significant cost of survivability.
- Modified TH system. TH now has a chance to upgrade. Higher chance for SA and TA hits (relevant for Bully).
- Higher TH tiers from both gear and trait.
- Bully. Every three minutes we can land a SA when soloing or solo tanking. Minor increase in damage, chance to upgrade TH
- Conspirator. The only somewhat useful ability we got in a party situation. Unless it's solo-tanked, and DDs only run in to stagger mobs, which is still the majority of content. The one single restriction on this ability makes this, again, borderline useless.
- Despoil. Sad to even have to mention it. But running out of things to say.
- Critical Attack Bonus. Useful.

So that's it. How much of this actually helps THF outside of TH? Only the Critical Attack Bonus and to some degree Bully (although still mainly for TH). Everything else is just an extension to the existing TH system. And the problem is, that is what SE thinks will fix THF, adjustments of TH. They don't seem to get that that's not all that THFs wanna be. Call it selfish, because it is, but we wanna do more than just apply TH and gtfo. Every job wants an actual role they play in a party, they want something to do and something to achieve. And THFs do not have that, at all.

Oh, and since we're on the TH topic: the current TH system blows ass. Which is the main part of what's wrong with SE's approach of trying to fix THF instead of fixing TH. Because they don't wanna fix TH at all, they wanna make THFs better at it. But they don't seem to realize (or realize that we realized) that TH beyond tier three is barely worth it. In most situations all you'll have is a waste of a slot. Sure, there are still times when you want max TH on a mob (empyrean weapon farming and similar things), but for most purposes /THF or BST or RNG get the same effect with a lot less effort and a lot more options to do during a battle than just stand around and SA every now and then.

So what's wrong with Thief's Knife? Well, it is required. Those max-TH situations, for one, will always call for, well, max TH on it, which means Thief's Knife. For farming? It's a simple decision, higher TH vs. faster kills. In this case, faster kills will win because of the severity of the damage loss by wielding that cursed knife. But that's where the frustration sets in, and it comes in two parts.

First, there's the social aspect: people, and often people in charge, will want highest TH on. They don't know/care for the loss of damage, or consider THF a subpar DD in the first place (which, sadly, it is), so does the additional loss of damage really matter? Well, usually it does, unless you have 10 other good DD who completely overshadow the difference in damage to the point that it's lower than the increase in drop rate (which is < 1%). What event are you doing these days that you bring more than 2 DDs to? (And where TH actually matters?) It's hard to play with people who disagree on your playstyle. Sure, one solution is to get new people. That's a very honest reply I've heard often in here, and it's equally absurd, because it implies that you'll only enjoy a game if you find a perfect match in players to do it with, which is impossible and rarely even helpful, because in a social game, not all you care about is finding players matching your playstyle, but players you can have fun with.

Secondly, there's the frustration that something that's unrelated to the actual battle is suffering from a pure battle-related game mechanic, namely the loss of TP on swapping the off-handed weapon. It's supposed to restrict the effectiveness of gearswapping for damage dealing purposes, and for that it's doing a good job. However, the TH effect suffers from it, despite being unrelated to the battle itself. We have the capability to apply higher TH, but we can't use it to play efficiently, we're actually punished for using it. So why have it in the first place? Sure, another "solution" to this is to "just don't use it, duh". But if you can't understand why we're frustrated by it, then either you don't care about perfecting your THF or you're too lazy for it.

Or, you're holding out for SE's "real" updates, that give THF another role besides TH whore, but you can't blame us for having given up that hope, because SE hasn't tried very hard to convince us that they're looking into it. So the reason why we're bitching about this "unimportant" issue is because bitching about other things didn't help. And we're still bitching about other things, too, as much as that makes us sound like the DRK forums. SE has shown us (repeatedly) that they don't get what the issues are, and we're trying to point them out. If they address even one of these things, we'll be happy. I'd probably completely shut up about this if they gave us DW3, as would most others. At least until we get over our new toy and realize we're still only (almost useless) TH whores.

tl;dr, we'd love more updates that aren't related to TH, but we don't see it happening anytime soon. If we're proven wrong, awesome. If not, please fix TH, including Thief's Knife.

And for the love of fuck SE, don't think that giving THF higher and more TH options is any kind of fix if you're not adjusting the TH effect itself. If all THF gets at 99 is TH4 and +2 on AA+2, I'll kick someone in the balls.

Edit:
And for the record: a solution (which is admittedly extremely unlikely) I would be completely happy with would be if SE removed the TH+1 on the Thief's Knife completely. Make it an ordinary knife, or remove it from the game entirely, I wouldn't care. Yes, I'd actually be happy with less TH, as long as it would put us out of this misery. Having a cake and not being able to eat it is the problem. Not having a cake no one would be complaining about not eating it.

[Scribble]

Scribble, your posts seem to be deliberate trolling. You know that the prevalent perception of TH is that the highest degree of TH must be applied to any mob that is being fought for drops. As far as most in this game are concerned, the only purpose for Thief is TH - regardless of whether it is really a placebo or not.

Having a different point of view doesn't constitute trolling. You'd have a point if I was here mocking THF, but I'm not.


In your post above you state that we can increase our DPS (by refusing to use the thief's knife). For many thieves, this would get them kicked from events.
I never suggested you refuse to use it. Unless they ninja'd it you only have to equip your TH+ gear for the first proc. Each successive proc beyond that will increase it from the initial stack.

If you had to full-time the dagger I would completely agree, but since you don't have to the amount of DPS you are losing isn't really significant. We've seen the parses of how little the extra TH procs effect drops; I'd also like to see some parses of average DPS lost in that generally small window of time that people actually have to leave their TH gear equipped before they can swap to normal TP gear sets.

I'll leave it here because it's obviously a sensitive topic, but I just think that if people could see just how much DPS they're missing out on they'd realize that it's hardly worth the tears.

[FrankReynolds]

Your not a troll because you have a different opinion, you are a troll because you continue to derail the thread with stupid comments about how thieves can swap out daggers (like your the first guy to think of that in the years since the knife was introduced) because the damage loss is not significant. It is significant. Thief Knife is only necessary because of tools like you who think that its fine to make the thief use that dagger, because the damage loss is insignificant. Furthermore, you have no reason to be here. you have contributed nothing to the discussion other than argument. The thread is about adding a trial to fix the problem. Not about whether the problem in fact exists (HINT: it does. that's why there is so much interest in this thread).

We all know there are better daggers.

We all know that the difference between treasure hunter 5 & 6 is virtually nothing.

The problem is that any time there is more than 1 DD, people are gonna expect the Thief to Hit shit with that crappy knife.

We want a fix to the problem. We don't want to try to convince the world that Thief Knife is not needed. We can't even get 1 troll to shut up about how it's fine.

Don't want to be a troll? Make a suggestion or comment that actually attempts to solve the problem being discussed. Don't just POP in and go "HEY GUYS! Thief Knife is fine. stop whining.".

Personally I'm all for a quest that makes Thief's knife a Key Item at the end. If you would care to make a better suggestion, then feel free. otherwise troll on.

[Lokithor]

I never suggested you refuse to use it. Unless they ninja'd it you only have to equip your TH+ gear for the first proc.
.
Do you actually know what that means? If I'm sitting at 90 TP when we pull a mob, I need to lose all of that in order to ensure that the first hit establishes my baseline so that I don't lose a quick subsequent proc. So, every other DD in the game can build TP before engaging except thief.


If you had to full-time the dagger I would completely agree...
.
This is exactly the situation for fast kill events like dynamis.


... it's hardly worth the tears.
.
And here is where the trolling returns. Your closing argument suggests that everyone that does not agree with your position is simply being too emotional to understand your infallible logic. I really do hope you leave it here because you are obviously just trying to stir things up.

[Karbuncle]

Unless it's being required by your LS, thieves are gimping their dps of their own accord

This is the entire reasoning behind the request. actually. When we have a choice, 99% of us are smart enough to simply dequip the THF's knife knowing its not worth the sacrifice.

but most of us do not have such a choice. Its during events and what have you, where we're either forced to wear it, Or we don't come THF. Or during multi-kill Events like Dynamis. A lot of people do have the pleasure of working with people smart enough to not worry about the 1 extra TH that won't likely matter by the end of the kill (Because of TH upgrades...), But a lot of us don't have that luxury either.

And Its not really a huge problem We've mentioned that, in fact comparatively its very under-talked about here. The discussion keeping this alive is really only a feel people trying to explain all of this. Most of the conversation regarding this is "I don't understand" vs "Here, let us try to explain".

Its not like we're demanding it happen right now, We're making suggestions for the future. Some time in the future, As 29 Levels out of Date is getting out of hand. it was gimp at level 75, Its just that much gimper now.

Again, Not a super-dooper pressing issue. Simply something that most of us believe should be looked into in the future. Which is why we made these suggestions, and as a core, why these forums exist. Suggestions

[Scribble]

Your not a troll because you have a different opinion, you are a troll because you continue to derail the thread with stupid comments about how thieves can swap out daggers (like your the first guy to think of that in the years since the knife was introduced) because the damage loss is not significant. It is significant.

I'm not a troll because despite your position being different from mine, I haven't strayed from the topic which is DPS loss from using a low damage dagger. The namecalling isn't necessary.

I don't see the damage lost being significant because it doesn't save you any great amount of time. You might have saved a few minutes over the course of a month if you never had to equip the dagger before proc. You will never wipe to a raged HNM because you missed out on a bit of damage at the beginning of an encounter.


We want a fix to the problem. We don't want to try to convince the world that Thief Knife is not needed. We can't even get 1 troll to shut up about how it's fine.
I'm guessing that because it's been the same for nearly a decade that people have given up on it, but if you want to fix the issue then you don't need a new knife, you need to fix the mechanic.


Don't want to be a troll? Make a suggestion or comment that actually attempts to solve the problem being discussed. Don't just POP in and go "HEY GUYS! Thief Knife is fine. stop whining."

This community cracks me up sometimes. It's like you're not allowed to have an opinion unless you have some 'constructive criticism' to support it even when people can agree with what you said. Fair enough, here goes...

Dear SE,

Please add a buff to TH that actually makes it do something. Anything is better than nothing but since everyone seems to agree that DPS is the problem, that's a good starting point.

I propose that when a THF procs TH on a mob they are granted a buff that increases [insert DPS buff here*] by a percentage equal to the amount of stacks applied. (*Crit rate, crit damage, WS damage, Regain tics ect.)

In this way us THF who gimp ourselves to whore out our TH get a buff which will allow us to recover the damage we would have lost by not using a proper gear set.

Problem solved? Not hardly, but at least the DPS gripe goes away.

Just curious but why isn't anyone calling for replacements to all of the TH+ gear? Yes your knife makes you dump TP on occasion and limits the damage you do, but isn't the rest of your TH+ gear gimp compared to what you would be using as well? Why stop with the knife? It clearly isn't the problem.


This is exactly the situation for fast kill events like dynamis.
In dynamis, pretty much all you need is the trait. !! proc is exponentially better than TH procs.


And here is where the trolling returns. Your closing argument suggests that everyone that does not agree with your position is simply being too emotional to understand your infallible logic. I really do hope you leave it here because you are obviously just trying to stir things up.
Hindsight. I probably should have said something like "hardly worth losing sleep over". What I meant was crying over spilled milk because it really isn't that big a deal. I wasn't implying that anyone who disagrees is emo and curls up into a ball.

Anyhow, I don't think my logic is infallible but based on TH testing already done and my suspicion about DPS/Time / Lost/Saved it seems like a solid stance from here.

[FrankReynolds]

I'm not a troll because despite your position being different from mine, I haven't strayed from the topic which is DPS loss from using a low damage dagger. The namecalling isn't necessary.

I don't see the damage lost being significant because it doesn't save you any great amount of time. You might have saved a few minutes over the course of a month if you never had to equip the dagger before proc. You will never wipe to a raged HNM because you missed out on a bit of damage at the beginning of an encounter.


I'm guessing that because it's been the same for nearly a decade that people have given up on it, but if you want to fix the issue then you don't need a new knife, you need to fix the mechanic.



This community cracks me up sometimes. It's like you're not allowed to have an opinion unless you have some 'constructive criticism' to support it even when people can agree with what you said. Fair enough, here goes...

Dear SE,

Please add a buff to TH that actually makes it do something. Anything is better than nothing but since everyone seems to agree that DPS is the problem, that's a good starting point.

I propose that when a THF procs TH on a mob they are granted a buff that increases [insert DPS buff here*] by a percentage equal to the amount of stacks applied. (*Crit rate, crit damage, WS damage, Regain tics ect.)

In this way us THF who gimp ourselves to whore out our TH get a buff which will allow us to recover the damage we would have lost by not using a proper gear set.

Problem solved? Not hardly, but at least the DPS gripe goes away.

Just curious but why isn't anyone calling for replacements to all of the TH+ gear? Yes your knife makes you dump TP on occasion and limits the damage you do, but isn't the rest of your TH+ gear gimp compared to what you would be using as well? Why stop with the knife? It clearly isn't the problem.


In dynamis, pretty much all you need is the trait. !! proc is exponentially better than TH procs.


Hindsight. I probably should have said something like "hardly worth losing sleep over". What I meant was crying over spilled milk because it really isn't that big a deal. I wasn't implying that anyone who disagrees is emo and curls up into a ball.

Anyhow, I don't think my logic is infallible but based on TH testing already done and my suspicion about DPS/Time / Lost/Saved it seems like a solid stance from here.

Look... for the sake of everyone who is attempting to follow this thread, just assume that we all know how much damage we lose by swapping. We all know we can just refuse to use the knife. We all know how little the knife does. We all know how much the knife affects drops. We all know when killing faster >= landing another tier of treasure hunter. We all know that people are dumb for asking us to use it most of the time. We all know that there are other things wrong with Thief.

We still want the dagger replaced / improved.

You say it's not important, and yet here you are posting over and over. It seems to me that you know this thing bugs the crap out of people, and you have nothing better to do than bother them.

[Greatguardian]

Honestly, at this point, I'd just post a large PSA (on real ffxi websites, of course) for ls leaders informing them that making people use Thief's Knife is back-asswards retarded and they should probably /breaklinkshell if they want to insist on continuing to do it. That does seem to be the root of the problem, no?

Really. It's a lot easier, and more effective, for the community to get together and call a leader a bloody moron than for a member of the shell to do so. This is one of the few things I miss about having Thorny around on BG. He definitely wasn't afraid to denounce shit like this.

[Karbuncle]

If Thorny taught us anything, its that no matter how many PSA you make, Or how well know it is.

Idiots find a way. They won't listen. If Idiots listened, There wouldn't be any today. Sadly i feel the only solution that will truly rid us of the problem is a true replacement that isn't a weapon.

But i mean, By all means, make the PSA >_> It can only help

[Greatguardian]

Ha, I doubt one I'd personally make would do much good. I know enough about general mechanics and TH testing to know that Thief's Knife is a waste, but I don't even have THF leveled past 30 and I don't really have much firsthand experience with the job or its situation in the current metagame. Besides, on these forums at least, most people are trained to filter out the vast majority of what I say.

I mean, I know the idiot population will never listen to reason. There are still people who think that moonphases affect crafting and macros are for chumps and try-hards. I just figure that, in general, avoiding people who are that dumb is second nature to most experienced players by this point - especially when those people are put into leadership roles. Honestly, at this point, I've been a sack or a shellholder in shells for so long (practically the entire history of the game itself), that I doubt I'd be able to really understand being a normal pearl in general. But is the game's community situation so bad now that solid players have no other option than to take orders from people so dense?

That's sad. My weekend VW shell is still recruiting, too. From my perspective, finding solid members is a vicious battle. On my server, shells have been very competitive about personnel. I've definitely lost a couple good members to more active shells that were just able to make them better offers. The vast majority of solid players are already established in shells. Hell, my primary linkshell was very well established, but we've been inactive for nearly a year now after Abyssea pretty much demolished our existing system. Whenever a solid freelance player pops up, it's practically a race to see which shell can grab them first and hold onto them, heh. It's a shame.

[FrankReynolds]

hah, just the other day i clicked a link to a youtube video of a guy who was using spellcast, but no macros. He was going through the spell list for every spell on BLM. Full gear swaps, no macros. pure genius.

[Zirael]

hah, just the other day i clicked a link to a youtube video of a guy who was using spellcast, but no macros. He was going through the spell list for every spell on BLM. Full gear swaps, no macros. pure genius.
Huh?
1234567890

[Karbuncle]

Whenever a solid freelance player pops up, it's practically a race to see which shell can grab them first and hold onto them, heh. It's a shame.

My reasons to stay on Asura get less and less every day... Maybe i can join you x.x

[Greatguardian]

My reasons to stay on Asura get less and less every day... Maybe i can join you x.x

Ha, I certainly wouldn't mind. Fair warning though, the majority of my playtime (and thus VW event time) is on weekends while school's in session, lol. We get shit done, but we aren't always on on weekdays or in the shell if we are. I don't care about exclusivity, so most of my members use my shell as an augment to their existing ones rather than as a fulltime one (aside from the other students). ElectricMayhem (a general Endgame shell which I'm also a sack in) will hopefully pick up weekday evenings (11pm Est) again once 99 comes around and Endgame events solidify.

I could point you in the direction of good weekday shells in most timezones, though, and could pretty easily get you into EM whenever it picks back up if you wanted.

[Karbuncle]

I'll probably give that some consideration.

I work Monday~Friday from Noon to 9PM so, not like i'm very active during weekdays either. Most of my play time is weekend

[Babekeke]

I was fighting Blanga yesterday, and we had thf nin whm blm/brd. On one occasion, it was the BLU proc so we didn't get yellow, but I had got TH10 on it.
Not a single seal dropped.
My friends who had been out there a while before I got there did comment on how when farming the garguoyles for the Benumbed Eye pop item, there was an awful lot of crap dropping from them that they hadn't even seen before (Garguoyle Shanks and Iridium Ingots). Just seems to show that THF's Knife isn't just inv-1... it's inv- lots of crap drops.

I'm starting to believe that /THF, atma of the dread, and taru sash is all that is required. Which is sad really.

[FrankReynolds]

Huh?
1234567890

Just an example of the type of tards great mentioned above when he said :


There are still people who think that moonphases affect crafting and macros are for chumps and try-hards.

[SpankWustler]

I don't know how exactly to answer this, Because I'm not sure the question or if its even a question at me >_> but even Asslets getting +2 TH Still means We'll get a base of +7 and be forced to Deepthroat that level 70 Abomination.

Late responding, but hey, not like I'm interrupting vital and intelligent discussion at this point. It was a rhetorical question.

I just think it's funny that a higher amount of Treasure Hunter is being added in a normal slot while Thief's Knife remains a malignant Parrying Knife-shaped growth to most people who really enjoy playing Thief. SE knows people like Treasure Hunter even though it's damned near statistically irrelevant. SE seemingly wants Treasure Hunter to grow with Thief. But...SE still hates every living thing enough to leave Thief's Knife as it is.

Also, sorry to hear about your poor luck with groups. I imagine I'll sympathize with that even more soon when I'm playing regularly again, updating my stuffs, and inevitably shopping for a Voidwatch group. Fortunately for me, I'm mostly on White Mage so others generally suffer due to my retardation rather than vise versa.

[CapriciousOne]

This is the entire reasoning behind the request. actually. When we have a choice, 99% of us are smart enough to simply dequip the THF's knife knowing its not worth the sacrifice.

but most of us do not have such a choice. Its during events and what have you, where we're either forced to wear it, Or we don't come THF. Or during multi-kill Events like Dynamis. A lot of people do have the pleasure of working with people smart enough to not worry about the 1 extra TH that won't likely matter by the end of the kill (Because of TH upgrades...), But a lot of us don't have that luxury either.

And Its not really a huge problem We've mentioned that, in fact comparatively its very under-talked about here. The discussion keeping this alive is really only a feel people trying to explain all of this. Most of the conversation regarding this is "I don't understand" vs "Here, let us try to explain".

Its not like we're demanding it happen right now, We're making suggestions for the future. Some time in the future, As 29 Levels out of Date is getting out of hand. it was gimp at level 75, Its just that much gimper now.

Again, Not a super-dooper pressing issue. Simply something that most of us believe should be looked into in the future. Which is why we made these suggestions, and as a core, why these forums exist. Suggestions

Personally you all do have a choice but are too scared to face the consequences of it or to lazy to commit to the choice. There is plenty of theifs that feel the knife is useless and also have other jobs leveled up to 90 and beyond. So simply put one could grow a pair and take a stand and not use if one is so adamant about it and just deal with the end result since at worst case scenario you will get kicked out which leads me to the next point. START YOUR OWN . If you feel your leader is such a nimrod and doesnt understand how useless the knife is, wont consider anything else, and you know other people in the shell who feel the same way and have other jobs leveled up, snatch them and form a shell together.

Bottom line if the dps suffered is really as horrible as you guys make it seem (which i disagree that it is), and you feel so strongly about it than one should be willing to put their behind on the line. If it doesnt matter enough to you to risk getting kicked off the shell or just not allowed into end game stuff, the please quit whining and just deal with it as always.

While yes it is nice to maybe have these ideas given to us it still wont ever change the real source of this problem as many other problems on other jobs..... the PLAYERBASE. The only real way to change that is to stop going along just to get along if you really feel that strongly about it. A better solution would be to increase all the other non-weapon TH gear from TH +1 to TH+2 for each piece, eliminating the piece altogether. Another solution to increase kill speed, at least outside of abyssea, is to just get and use your adventuring fellow as fierce attacker or soothing healer depending on your play style in the interim.

Finally I forget who said it or how it was said but it doesnt really matter anyway but these threads are more than just a rubber stamp approval list or petition for ideas. Any developer worth their weight wants to hear both sides of an issue to get a general consensus of where the community stands. The fact that the mods or so oblivious to the bullying tactics being used to effectively try to silence any detractors. Simply put if your position is valid and reason and has legs to stand on its own merits such tactics aren't even necessary so it is obvious to me that it doesnt. It is complete bull to see how mods react to people defending theirselves to people standing up against these bullying tactics but do nothing to address the people doing the actual bullying. While we are all supposed to be adults and "mature" about discussing some people need to be taught a little class goes a long way to get your point across.

[Greatguardian]

Get out.

0123456789

[FrankReynolds]

derp derp derp.

NIce try. Now go away.

[Insaniac]

Use your adventuring fellow? Only after equipping it with an O-hat for extra TH right? TROLLOLOLOLOLOL.

[CapriciousOne]

NIce try. Now go away.

You said that before yet here I am again....hmmm

In any case simply put SE rarely gives us exactly what we ask for and exactly how we ask for it.

Usually one of these following things will happen:
1. We get the damage upgrade to the knife but the TH level of the knife will be downgraded
2. We dont get the damage upgrade but instead the TH level is raised on the knife
3. We get both the damage boost on the knife and the TH level remains the same but it comes at the cost of say Evasion down effect, WS damage reduction, or TP reduction.

When will people realize SE doesnt care that much about American fan base satisfaction with the game nearly as much as they want to retain their vision of the game and keeping the Japanese fan base happy.

[CapriciousOne]

Use your adventuring fellow? Only after equipping it with an O-hat for extra TH right? TROLLOLOLOLOLOL.

Aw how cute single-digit is trying to make a joke. Farming with your fellow if done right levels it up as well as speeds up the kill rate when solo farming. Currently my fellow is level 80 and any mobs level 80-90 makes it level up faster while i farm stuff. Only downside is that SE refuses to allow fellows the same level of access to areas that ordinary automatons and charmed/jug pets can access. Apparently one more reason I disklike this game now but it does help with farming whle keeping the ratty Thief's knife equipped in other areas.

[Babekeke]

You said that before yet here I am again....hmmm

In any case simply put SE rarely gives us exactly what we ask for and exactly how we ask for it.

Usually one of these following things will happen:
1. We get the damage upgrade to the knife but the TH level of the knife will be downgraded
2. We dont get the damage upgrade but instead the TH level is raised on the knife
3. We get both the damage boost on the knife and the TH level remains the same but it comes at the cost of say Evasion down effect, WS damage reduction, or TP reduction.

When will people realize SE doesnt care that much about American fan base satisfaction with the game nearly as much as they want to retain their vision of the game and keeping the Japanese fan base happy.


Aw how cute single-digit is trying to make a joke. Farming with your fellow if done right levels it up as well as speeds up the kill rate when solo farming. Currently my fellow is level 80 and any mobs level 80-90 makes it level up faster while i farm stuff. Only downside is that SE refuses to allow fellows the same level of access to areas that ordinary automatons and charmed/jug pets can access. Apparently one more reason I disklike this game now but it does help with farming whle keeping the ratty Thief's knife equipped in other areas.

This is how to multi-quote a thread:

#1 click the icon bottom-right of a speech bubble and a + sign of the first post you want to quote.
#2 repeat #1 for all other posts you want to quote, until you reach the last one (if you click the last one too it doesn't matter though).
#3 click 'reply with quote' button on the last thread that you want to quote.

Unless of course you're doing it solely to try and boost your post count, in which case, crack on. I've personally stopped reading most of what you say now anyway.

[Insaniac]

Aw how cute single-digit is trying to make a joke. Farming with your fellow if done right levels it up as well as speeds up the kill rate when solo farming. Currently my fellow is level 80 and any mobs level 80-90 makes it level up faster while i farm stuff. Only downside is that SE refuses to allow fellows the same level of access to areas that ordinary automatons and charmed/jug pets can access. Apparently one more reason I disklike this game now but it does help with farming whle keeping the ratty Thief's knife equipped in other areas.You are like a troll idiot savant. Let's assume for a second that you actually do use your fellow for some kind of old school wisteria lumber farming or something lol. Using your fellow is fine and all but in any mass farming situation using a TK will net you less drops than any reasonable offhand dagger because you are trading a noticeable increase in kill speed for an unnoticeable increase in drop rates. It's a dumb thing to do if you have your fellow out or not. You are willingly imposing a gimp on yourself and your supposed farming session that you have been saying we have the freedom of choice to not impose on ourselves. That's some next level shit.



1. We get the damage upgrade to the knife but the TH level of the knife will be downgraded

You do know that already exists right? Since if you lowered the TH on TK it would be TH +0 which is the same as the better offhand daggers we already have. (In before TH +0.5)

[Karbuncle]

Late responding, but hey, not like I'm interrupting vital and intelligent discussion at this point. It was a rhetorical question.

I just think it's funny that a higher amount of Treasure Hunter is being added in a normal slot while Thief's Knife remains a malignant Parrying Knife-shaped growth to most people who really enjoy playing Thief. SE knows people like Treasure Hunter even though it's damned near statistically irrelevant. SE seemingly wants Treasure Hunter to grow with Thief. But...SE still hates every living thing enough to leave Thief's Knife as it is.

Also, sorry to hear about your poor luck with groups. I imagine I'll sympathize with that even more soon when I'm playing regularly again, updating my stuffs, and inevitably shopping for a Voidwatch group. Fortunately for me, I'm mostly on White Mage so others generally suffer due to my retardation rather than vise versa.

I like your reason for editing. Also, Ignoring the E-thug with the ironic Character model, I think this thread is fun to read.

[CapriciousOne]

1. You are like a troll idiot savant. Let's assume for a second that you actually do use your fellow for some kind of old school wisteria lumber farming or something lol. Using your fellow is fine and all but in any mass farming situation using a TK will net you less drops than any reasonable offhand dagger because you are trading a noticeable increase in kill speed for an unnoticeable increase in drop rates. It's a dumb thing to do if you have your fellow out or not. You are willingly imposing a gimp on yourself and your supposed farming session that you have been saying we have the freedom of choice to not impose on ourselves. That's some next level shit.


2. You do know that already exists right? Since if you lowered the TH on TK it would be TH +0 which is the same as the better offhand daggers we already have. (In before TH +0.5)


1. Ok I dont know how you have your fellow set up or how you do and personally I dont care. In any case even when farming trash mobs for drop I usually have a stack of meat mithkabobs handy to boost my damgage output and kill speed. In addition to that my fellow is using a great katana i traded her which has a delay on average about 2x that of a 200 delay dagger. Sure I could go with a polearm which has a delay of about 2 regular 190 delay dagger but I like the skill chain options of the katana better than the polearm which I also do with my fellow to increase the damage. Between all that and facing mobs that are about decent challenge to my fellow which is about 72-80 to my level 90 thief damage loss is miniscule to me but apparently I have a higher tolerance for damage loss plus I'm never in a rush when I play this game because I schedule time to do things. In addition some mobs actually have higher drop rates than others as well even in the same family of mobs. For instance, say you farming lizard eggs one would be better off farming them from the lizards in Crawler's nest than say the ones out Cape Terrigan. On average they drop like 2 or 3 per kill even without TH procing and the same could be said of other mobs if any of you bothered to look it up. Unfortunate drop rates for some items are just horrible no matter how u cut it with or without TH. I also made it a point to say I dont even use the knife anyway like 20 posts ago but when I did that is how I did it, take it or leave it no need to be a jerk all your life.

2. Allow me to rephrase for you then the overall effectiveness of the dagger may no longer give you a starting level of TH 4 by having it equipped but rather TH 3.5 if they do increase the damage of it. Hell it may even still say Treasure Hunter+1 but may not even factor into the starting level of TH anymore when they increase the damage knowing how jacked up SE thinks. In any case you are just arguing for arguing sake but whatever. Essentially the player base attitude combined with SE need to artificially control the game aspects is the biggest probelm with everything. The way SE does TH is supposedly trying to control the AH and prices etc when the market will correct itself on its own by the law of supply and demand. SE is essentially given the AH a government sponsored bailout instead of letting the market bottom out and recover on its own and hence why TH is in such crisis. Anyway it doesnt matter I'm tired of people just trying to push their populace agenda anyway. The bottom line is that for most gear in game you have to give up something to gain its benefits because that is how SE likes it and will continue to shove down your throats. In a party I am willing to sacrfice my damage out put for the good of the party because that is my job. Even solo that is fine because usually whatever I'm farming doesn't take long to kill anyway and I often get multiple drops of stuff anyway to make up for the killspeed. If I have a problem with that I just leave the party and fly solo or just do a low man with buddies, simple.

All I hear is ego, ego, and more ego so I really dont listen to you people anymore anyway.

[Insaniac]

Why can't I quit you?

[Greatguardian]

Well, hopefully you know how to multiquote, considering even the RDM forums came together and collectively bitchslapped you for coming in and posting 5+ times in a row while leaving absolutely no clue as to who/what you were responding to.

[Arcon]

Why can't I quit you?

If only :\


Comment deleted by Moderator.

Makes perfect sense.

Listen, it's very simple. If you think we're that stupid, why are you still talking? Even if you truly believe you're not an idiot (which I believe that you believe), you have got to realize by now that there's nothing you can possibly say to convince us of that. We think you're a bottomless barrel filled to the brim with stupid. Every single word you said, every hint of your attitude and your reasoning and researching skills has convinced us you're a moron. You've worked very hard to get where you are in our minds, and the results show. So why are you still talking? Just blacklist all of us and call it a day. Put your cardboard Optical Crown with Treasure Hunter on and declare yourself king of the internet arguments, we're cool with that. But if you keep posting, you will keep provoking replies, so don't blame us for derailing this thread and getting it locked again.

[FrankReynolds]

The problem is that he actually wants to derail the thread, he is just here to ruin useful discussions. I personally recommend that everyone just put him on ignore and report his troll posts as intentional griefing. He has yet to add anything useful to the conversation. Let him satisfy his craving for negative attention somewhere else. /ignore.

[LeaderofAtlantis]

I think 1 thing they could do is at least let us do Fields of Valor augments to it. I'd actually like to have that be at least 1 option for all older Rare/EX gear from NMs. It seems like this would be the easiest thing to do for them and then add a Magian Trial later for it.

[Sappho]

Now I'm going to sound like a troll, but I'm just an ignorant player trying to understand.

If Thief's Knife is as useless as the discussion makes it seem, then why does it still sell like hotcakes on the AH?

Are there just lots of ignorant players who do not know any better?

[Arcon]

Now I'm going to sound like a troll, but I'm just an ignorant player trying to understand.

If Thief's Knife is as useless as the discussion makes it seem, then why does it still sell like hotcakes on the AH?

Are there just lots of ignorant players who do not know any better?

Three reasons, first of all, it still has its uses when fighting NMs. The reason for this is, since you want as high TH as possible on it, so you have it equipped at the beginning of the fight, do one move on the NM and then unequip it again. This works, and you'll lose some damage due to swapping weapons, but no one is complaining about that, since it happens once a fight and doesn't take much out of the whole thing (even though it can still be annoying, especially when you do multiple same NM fights, like in Abyssea). This is not possible (or at least not feasible) during farming fights, like Abyssea trigger farming or Dynamis, because mobs die too fast and you'd be losing an averagely high amount of TP every fight, overall gimping your damage immensely. It would even be better to keep it equipped, however, even that takes so much out of your damage, that you can achieve more by just equipping a real dagger and killing faster (TH5 to TH6 difference is negligible). So it can be useful, for the right kind of fight, namely when you want highest possible TH on (rare NM fights, where every % counts).

The second reason why it's still selling is simply because there's many people starting up THF again. THF received a short burst of popularity with Abyssea, so there's many new/noob players picking up THF, so there's an overall increase in dagger sales.

The third reason is simply because most people don't know yet, don't know just how useless higher level TH really is. Previous tests have shown very little increase past TH2 (which is even subbable). But people simply don't know. They think the higher the TH, the better. As we've even discussed in this thread, there's still leaders out there who force their THFs to fulltime it for events, simply because they either don't know the TH bonus or even simple TH mechanics (also demonstrated by some people arguing in here).

The Thief's Knife isn't completely useless, but it suffers from a game mechanic that wasn't designed to deal with this kind of ability. This augment belongs on equipment that doesn't correspond to a fixed DD slot.

[Sappho]

The third reason is simply because most people don't know yet, don't know just how useless higher level TH really is. Previous tests have shown very little increase past TH2 (which is even subbable). But people simply don't know.

Do you know, off-hand, a link to some TH research?
I'd love to see the math that goes on behind the scenes.
I do have THF leveled up, but I only use it for personal farming.

[FrankReynolds]

Here's one thread: Treasure-Hunter-Testing (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/12798-Treasure-Hunter-Testing)

[Babekeke]

Personally, I don't think we will ever see an upgrade to this, nor augments.
Reason: It leaves us with a choice.
SE likes us to take choices.
Personally, my choice is a lot of the time, I don't even bother to remove it, despite having ~7 better off-hand options. The reason that I choose not to remove it is thus:
In dynamis, or when farming, mobs die too fast for it to be worth swapping the dagger out and lose the TP. On proc mobs, either in Dynamis or VW, we're often holding off on damage to get procs, so it's better to keep TPing for higher TH with the low-level low-DPS thief's knife, dealing less damage so killing more slowly and getting TH upgrades.

It's all personal preference, and like I said at the start; it's your choice. Use it - don't use it - use it for 1 hit then swap it out.

I'd say that unless you're fighting a mob that you can pop as fast as you kill, no matter how fast that might be, and you can get any procs needed in that time - then use it.
Of course, inside abyssea, I'll be swapping from thf to blu/thf for seal NMs once I finish levelling blu, because yellow still beats TH10, as I found on Blange when TH10 without yellow yielded 0 seals. Yellow proc has never doen this that I've seen.

[CapriciousOne]

Well, hopefully you know how to multiquote, considering even the RDM forums came together and collectively bitchslapped you for coming in and posting 5+ times in a row while leaving absolutely no clue as to who/what you were responding to.

It not my fault those morons never took to the time to tryout the multiple thread views like I did and choose to use the Hybrid view that shows a linear view of what post everyone is responding too by linking them. Those same people and you all here are probably the same type of morons who never read the instruction manual of how to setup their tv but then are dumbfounded by why it doesnt work.

It also funny how you and others refer to Bitchslapping alot on a forum. I wouldnt know about that because I dont bitch slap men or women and I never been bitchslapped by anybody so I would take it that most of you are resident experts on that topic.

If anything I just remember a bunch of close minded jerks who only believe there is one way to do something and do it well when that isnt the case, much like you people. The whole issue here about increasing the damage of a dagger that is only situational at best when there are multiple other daggers more qualified to increase the damage.

[Greatguardian]

lol

0123456789

[wish12oz]

It not my fault those morons never took to the time to tryout the multiple thread views like I did and choose to use the Hybrid view that shows a linear view of what post everyone is responding too by linking them. Those same people and you all here are probably the same type of morons who never read the instruction manual of how to setup their tv but then are dumbfounded by why it doesnt work.

It also funny how you and others refer to Bitchslapping alot on a forum. I wouldnt know about that because I dont bitch slap men or women and I never been bitchslapped by anybody so I would take it that most of you are resident experts on that topic.

If anything I just remember a bunch of close minded jerks who only believe there is one way to do something and do it well when that isnt the case, much like you people. The whole issue here about increasing the damage of a dagger that is only situational at best when there are multiple other daggers more qualified to increase the damage.

I like the idea of having a higher damage knife with TH on it, why you are against this I can't figure out. Are you mentally handicapped?

[CapriciousOne]

I like the idea of having a higher damage knife with TH on it, why you are against this I can't figure out. Are you mentally handicapped?

The reasoning behind the request is what I disagree with as it doesn't affect anybody ability to get stuff done nearly as much as everybody keep whining about it. You must be mentally handicap if you don't see that the knife is useless no matter how you cut it even with higher damage stat. The drop rate of items that are statically assigned by SE is the real problem and needs to change.

Also this is America and I can !!! If you like being told what to think and feel I suggest you leave because you in the wrong country. I already explained it here and in the other bs thread not my fault the overly sensitive users keep whining to mods to delete my posts. There was nothing offensive or inappropriate about any of them.

[Delvish]

I'd prefer the entire thread just get locked again so the THF forum can be put to constructive discussion again as opposed to this nonstop for the past week or so.

[Glamdring]

don't supposed it ever occurred to anyone to fix placebo hunter to something that didn't have to be trended over 1000 kills to see a .7% increase in desireable drops? as opposed to say, treant bulbs? then you can just leave the knife out of it.

[FrankReynolds]

don't supposed it ever occurred to anyone to fix placebo hunter to something that didn't have to be trended over 1000 kills to see a .7% increase in desireable drops? as opposed to say, treant bulbs? then you can just leave the knife out of it.

There are / have been millions of threads about fixing treasure hunter (if that's even what your trying to say). I think at this point I've given up on the devs being capable of making a decent treasure hunter trait. I would settle for just making it so that Placebo hunter no longer affects my damage output. I guess it would be cool if they put a cap on how high treasure hunter could go, and made it super easy to get to for thief main (think like 5 attack rounds :P) so that you never needed TK to reach it, But that will never happen.

[Babekeke]

The reasoning behind the request is what I disagree with as it doesn't affect anybody ability to get stuff done nearly as much as everybody keep whining about it. You must be mentally handicap if you don't see that the knife is useless no matter how you cut it even with higher damage stat. The drop rate of items that are statically assigned by SE is the real problem and needs to change.

Also this is America and I can !!! If you like being told what to think and feel I suggest you leave because you in the wrong country. I already explained it here and in the other bs thread not my fault the overly sensitive users keep whining to mods to delete my posts. There was nothing offensive or inappropriate about any of them.

/blacklisted. You have nothing to add to this or any other thread as far as I can see. The forum would be better off without you, and I implore the other readers of this thread to do the same, and stop feeding this troll, please!

[Nynja]

well the bst's got a thread wiped within 4 hours, and then 3h banned, for trolling their shit about dynamis...just spam the report post button on this chump.

[FrankReynolds]

/blacklisted. You have nothing to add to this or any other thread as far as I can see. The forum would be better off without you, and I implore the other readers of this thread to do the same, and stop feeding this troll, please!

I /Blacklisted him too.

Anyways...... 3,000+ views. I hope one of them was the development staff. It would be nice to get a response on this. Thief is still a Loot Monger. A little love wouldn't hurt.

[Nynja]

TH cap in gear will be TH6, so no more need to use TK with AA+2.

[Arcon]

TH cap in gear will be TH6, so no more need to use TK with AA+2.

Seriously? Tested? I pray to God this is true.

[Delvish]

I suppose that would certainly fix the problem. Not something any of us ever thought of. I suppose that depends on if Atma and Super Kupowers count towards any such cap, considering I've noticed +1 with either of those active.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

TH cap in gear will be TH6, so no more need to use TK with AA+2.

That's actually a genius way if right of disabling people forcing others to use the Thief's Knife.

[Arcon]

I suppose that would certainly fix the problem. Not something any of us ever thought of. I suppose that depends on if Atma and Super Kupowers count towards any such cap, considering I've noticed +1 with either of those active.


TH cap in gear will be TH6, so no more need to use TK with AA+2.

I guess it would be more accurate to say gear TH will be capped at 3. Also, we did think of that before, it was mentioned a few times in the closed thread. I just didn't think SE would actually do something like that.

I think this is the second best solution. Personally I would have voted to remove TP loss on changing the offhand weapon, but I can see why they wouldn't go with that, nor did I ever expect it to happen. I'm glad they went with this.

I'd still like to know how you know this, not that I don't believe you, just for further reading. From the test server? Reports on BG, or any other sources available?

[Nynja]

Uh...my post was sarcasm as to how SE would make TK worthless to have >.>

[Arcon]

Uh...my post was sarcasm as to how SE would make TK worthless to have >.>

/ cry

[Delvish]

The most brilliant idea I think any of us have ever seen (Sorry, I read -most- of the closed thread as it was posted but with HIM in there I started to not care anymore and skimmed) and it wasn't real and the biggest let-down since Entropy.

You sir, must work for SE...

[Nynja]

LOL I TROL U

[Laphine]

I know this has died out by now, but i couldn't post because i had cancelled my account lol. Anyway, i thought we had agreed in the old thread that solutions that excluded TK completely were winners. After all, unless SE went out of its usual way and made TK godly, it will always be a gimp dagger. We will always have something better to use in our offhand.

The 3 solutions i remember were (was there anything else?):

1- a piece of armor with TH+1 that only activates with TK unnequiped
2- removing tp loss from weapon swaps
3- a TH+ cap on equipment, followed by the addiction of new TH+ pieces so TK is excluded

[Karbuncle]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/13514-A-Simple-Request-from-Thieves-An-upgrade-to-Thief-s-Knife.

Also, SE actually addressed Thief's Knife in a JP Update to a JP Thread.

Basically they told us no. Because the JPs, who were as misguided as we were when we first made the thief's knife upgrade request, only seem fixate on replacing the dagger with a better dagger, not the idea of ridding ourselves of the weapon. Anyway, As Laphine said, since my thread was locked the best and simplest solution with the least time required all while ridding us of the Thief's Knife is!

----Give us a Piece of armor with Latent Effect: Treasure Hunter +1, This latent will only activate when your Treasure Hunter is less than or equal to 6 (Meaning TH3 base, Gloves(+2), Feet(+1)), or It will only activate without a Thief's Knife equipped. Either solution works, though he Less than or equal to TH6 might be easier to program.

Point being, there is a solution that doesn't involve upgrading the Knife, and its stupidly simple.

[Karbuncle]

Basically here a translation:
In Regards to Equipment with Treasure Hunter



There was an error in the previous post, so I wish to correct it.

In regards to increasing levels of treasure hunter becoming less effective, that was in reference to items that regularly drop frequently.

In regards to the high-value items that players may be more concerned about, "Increases in the level of Treasure Hunter will results in an almost consistent increase per level (Although each level is small)" would be more accurate.

I apologize for the lack of specification in the previous post.

I have expressed the thoughts of "It is difficult to let go of my Thief's Knife when considering party play and reaching TH12" to the development team.

We have discussed the possibility of adding a higher-level Thief's Knife to the game, but we fear this may turn into a situation where Thieves are stuck forever wearing "High-Level Thief's Knife + Thief's Knife", further narrowing the choices of weapons that is already present. We also wish to avoid having to weaken the original Thief's Knife.

In order to solve this problem, we are considering introducing a hard cap to the total amount of Treasure Hunter players can gain through equipment.

It would become a situation where you would feel comfortable saying "Since I have reached the cap, I don't have to worry about bringing my Thief's Knife anymore! (Similar to a situation we wish to create with haste)" I should add that such a cap would not be below the level of what is currently possible for players.

I cannot promise an exact timeframe for implementation yet- I simply wished to convey our current plans to the players.

So, they're basically reliving all the mistakes and debates we disgussed and solved years ago in my locked thread. I mean, its almost word for word the discussions we had in that thread I made, and they're replying as if this is the first time anyones even brought up Thief's Knife too them or anything. I know its an old thread and old, but seriously, can they not see how "Dual wielding Thief's Knifes" wouldn't be a problem if they went with the accessory solution?

Looks like they're considering a hard cap on TH from gear, another solution we already came up with years ago in a different TH thread, so I'm glad at least on of the solutions we came up with made it into the heads of one of the dev team.

I can't help but feel jaded, seriously, I'm not angry at anyone in specific, Dev of Community reps, it just hits me in the wrong spot that after years of threads popping up here on the Thief's knife, it finally gets a response in some JP thread and its addressed like the 4-5 or more threads here full of discussion and solutions never existed. Cause theres more than the one I linked, I Passed at least 3 of them when I dug around for mine. I'm grateful we have a response, I just wish the response was made with the knowledge we here in the NA department had accumulated and discussed as well.

[Camate]

Greetings,

First off, I would like to apologize for making any English speaking players feel that their requests and feedback were not answered. I can assure you that this was not the case and that threads that are unanswered are communicated to the development team. Unfortunately, sometimes we are unable to answer certain topics, and there are cases where when the team decides to answer, it is first on the Japanese side as that is their native language.

Now then, on to the actual topic at hand.

Though Karbuncle has summarized and posted a translation of what was communicated I would like to give a slightly more official response about this.

The response from Lomloon, as pointed out, contained incorrect information about the way treasure hunter works. It was mentioned in his first post that once you reach a certain level of treasure hunter, the drop rate would not be affected much even if you continue to stack more treasure hunter. This, however, is only talking about common drops, and continuing to add treasure hunter will boost the drop rate for rare items, though it will be a very slight increase.

We’ve informed the development team again about the feedback mentioning that it’s hard to let go of Thief’s Knife while playing in a party as players want to increase the treasure hunter effect to 12.

The development team was looking into a higher-tier version of Thief’s Knife; however, they felt it would result in thieves equipping both the new knife and the original which would further limit their weapon selection. In order to solve this issue, they are currently looking into placing a cap on treasure hunter from equipment in the future.

With this as well as the addition of other equipment with treasure hunter, we are aiming to make it so you can reach the equipment cap and no longer need to use Thief’s Knife. Please also know that we will not be reducing the value of treasure hunter obtainable with current equipment.

While I can’t make any promises as to when this adjustment will take place, we will be sure to keep you updated as there is progress!

[Selindrile]

Seriously, how hard would it be to make a new dagger that is the following:

Thief's Better Knife

Dmg: 97 Delay:200 DEX + 10 AGI + 10
Attack + 10 Evasion + 20 Steal +2
Dagger Skill + 188
Parrying Skill + 188
Magic Accuracy Skill + 146
Latent Effect: Treasure Hunter +1 (Active whenever Thief's Knife isn't equipped)

99 THF Item Level: 115

There are already items that the latent activates whenever another specific peice of equipment is equipped, they're very common! So how hard would it be to create the opposite?

Also: We realize the Dev team focuses replies on JP posts because their native language is JP, but we feel like the NA community team often ignores very important and relevant posts about things that the JP portion has responses to.

[Karbuncle]

Greetings,

First off, I would like to apologize for making any English speaking players feel that their requests and feedback were not answered. I can assure you that this was not the case and that threads that are unanswered are communicated to the development team. Unfortunately, sometimes we are unable to answer certain topics, and there are cases where when the team decides to answer, it is first on the Japanese side as that is their native language.

Now then, on to the actual topic at hand.

Though Karbuncle has summarized and posted a translation of what was communicated I would like to give a slightly more official response about this.

The response from Lomloon, as pointed out, contained incorrect information about the way treasure hunter works. It was mentioned in his first post that once you reach a certain level of treasure hunter, the drop rate would not be affected much even if you continue to stack more treasure hunter. This, however, is only talking about common drops, and continuing to add treasure hunter will boost the drop rate for rare items, though it will be a very slight increase.

We’ve informed the development team again about the feedback mentioning that it’s hard to let go of Thief’s Knife while playing in a party as players want to increase the treasure hunter effect to 12.

The development team was looking into a higher-tier version of Thief’s Knife; however, they felt it would result in thieves equipping both the new knife and the original which would further limit their weapon selection. In order to solve this issue, they are currently looking into placing a cap on treasure hunter from equipment in the future.

With this as well as the addition of other equipment with treasure hunter, we are aiming to make it so you can reach the equipment cap and no longer need to use Thief’s Knife. Please also know that we will not be reducing the value of treasure hunter obtainable with current equipment.

While I can’t make any promises as to when this adjustment will take place, we will be sure to keep you updated as there is progress!

I know you're doing your job and stuff, seriously I do. Which is why I did make a note to mention I'm not upset at your or the devs, I know a game company has thousands of people all barking different orders and its more than easy for you or anyone else to lose stuff in the process of exchanging information and so on. It does kinda suck when things like this happen, even though gaming companies are still very much run by humans, and you guys yourselves, are humans, and to error is to human so things like this getting through the cracks happens often enough, its understandable.

I mean, trust me when i first made the post people reading it would probably be going to hell because of the hate-by-associating coming off it, but I edited it... heavily... after I did some brief relaxing.

Camate. Maybe It doesn't need to be said, But i feel like one sentence in my post maybe didn't make the point too clear. I know you guys do your best, and just because I or we sometimes feel left out or unheard, I think most of us here on the forums know at least you guys are doing your end of the bargain and sending the info over. Plus, now you guys have to translate stuff for FFXIV, and I've been to the FFXIV forums, its a dangerous pit of anger and hell.... good luck with that. Tried XIV and saddly it wasn't for me.

Got the SMN Zenith relic though, It was nice for the time.


Seriously, how hard would it be to make a new dagger that is the following:

Thief's Better Knife

Dmg: 97 Delay:200 DEX + 10 AGI + 10
Attack + 10 Evasion + 20 Steal +2
Dagger Skill + 188
Parrying Skill + 188
Magic Accuracy Skill + 146
Latent Effect: Treasure Hunter +1 (Active whenever Thief's Knife isn't equipped)

Please no. No, no no... no... nonono. Cause if they raise the I.lv again, in another couple months even this dagger will be gimp and useless. It needs to either be a piece of easily removable armor, or the hard-cap solution is the best :)


Also: We realize the Dev team focuses replies on JP posts because their native language is JP, but we feel like the NA community team often ignores very important and relevant posts about things that the JP portion has responses to.

This also causes the effect of NA's praising games like, say WoW, for having great customer feedback and support, and ripping on games like this. Because WoW devs are NA, so they often easily get information to NAs, I'm sure if we were JP we'd have the opposite opinions of certain gaming companies. Its an unfortunate reality and theres really not too much they can do about it, SE or the Community reps. But it is a sad after effect of Multi-national MMOs.

[Selindrile]

Please no. No, no no... no... nonono. Cause if they raise the I.lv again, in another couple months even this dagger will be gimp and useless. It needs to either be a piece of easily removable armor, or the hard-cap solution is the best :)

If they raise the iLv again, they can print a new dagger with the same Latent: Treasure Hunter +1 that only activates if you don't have another of these weapons, etc.

That said, the Hard-Cap _IS_ the best solution, but that may not be the easiest to implement programming wise (not that I have any clue what their code looks like) I was just saying, what I put forth seems like it would be a rather easy thing to implement, and easy-to-do means we fix the problem faster.

[Karbuncle]

If they raise the iLv again, they can print a new dagger with the same Latent: Treasure Hunter +1 that only activates if you don't have another of these weapons, etc.

Which seems silly to have them endlessly recycle the crap tier dagger every time they want to raise the i.lv cap. Why worry about them reprinting a dagger over and over having a pile of outdated reprint daggers when a piece of armor or accessory will flat out do the job well and never have to be replaced?

One item one fix done and done.



That said, the Hard-Cap _IS_ the best solution, but that may not be the easiest to implement programming wise (not that I have any clue what their code looks like) I was just saying, what I put forth seems like it would be a rather easy thing to implement, and easy-to-do means we fix the problem faster.

While I don't think its the best solution, the accessory clearly is to anyone willing to admit it, the hard cap is the second best solution and one I'm glad they're at least addressing.

[Selindrile]

If you mean an accessory that functions the way the proposed dagger did? (ie: latent that activates without thiefknife equipped) sure, otherwise, people will just wear both.

As to worrying about them creating new options, this game is moving to a more vertical gear system with iLevels, /shrug, it's going to be an issue either way with things getting outdated, but yes, fair enough, that would be less hassle for Thfs.

[Karbuncle]

If you mean an accessory that functions the way the proposed dagger did? (ie: latent that activates without thiefknife equipped) sure, otherwise, people will just wear both.

As to worrying about them creating new options, this game is moving to a more vertical gear system with iLevels, /shrug, it's going to be an issue either way with things getting outdated, but yes, fair enough, that would be less hassle for Thfs.

Yes, the one that function the same way the dagger did with a latent only working when the dagger isn't equipped, or @/below a hard cap.

Regardless, they're really hesitant on adding just 1 new dagger, the idea of them adding a new one every time the I.lvl cap raises is unlikely at best, which is why I'd like a solution that didn't involve a temporary upgrade is all. If they could implement a permanent solution it would be nice.

While the hard cap isn't my first go to, it works, and I appreciate them addressing or at least acknowledging that its garbage THF is glued to a 10 year old weapon.

[Dragoy]

I'm grateful we have a response, I just wish the response was made with the knowledge we here in the NA department had accumulated and discussed as well.

What, this is NA-only now!? ^^;

Sorry, I couldn't resist. Just sort of joking about comments in general that have the feel of only Japanese and American people playing the game. Who cares about the minority of the minority, et al., huh.


Anyblue, it is interesting to see this issue finally getting some time! I don't think the current direction looks bad either, so keep it up!

If only we had more of it. Time, I mean.

[Frost]

Why not make a Thief Knife set, with a 'set bonus' of TH+1~2?
Or add a Magian path so that anyone can have a "TH+" Weapon. (Bst: Pet Th+" Solves that issue)
Make them worth it.

I mean it makes sense now that Thief has native Dual Wield.
Hell, make it a combo deal, Two Knives and a Throwing weapon.

[Selindrile]

Because that exacerbates the problem they're trying to solve even further and is exactly the opposite of what they're asking for.

[Frost]

Idk, personally, I liked the "old" thief knife. When it was rare. A status symbol for the people who took the job seriously. Now it's usually relegated to a naked mule who acts as some sort of F'd up sacrificial lamb. I don't see the Dev's suggestion fixing that really.

[Selindrile]

It wouldn't fix that, someone using a mule to achieve "max TH" in the cheapest/easiest way possible.... but that's not something I see, mules are pretty much exclusively mages that I've seen.

But that's not what they're trying to fix, they're trying to fix Thfs who care about their DD and contribution to the fight of the party being funneled into using a knife that does approximately 1/10th the damage an updated knife would do in that hand, the problem is they feel like they have a lack-of-choice, making a combo set with TH on it, just makes them have even less choices.

[Sfchakan]

Some of the crazy solutions offered are ridiculous. This can be done very easily with low effort from the dev team.

Make a magian quest to upgrade it. Make stops at 105, 119, and whatever upgrades come our way down the road. At worst, at 119, it will be a huge improvement over what we have now.

The dagger will still be called "Thief's Knife," but with improved stats and still R (or R/E now). You won't be able to or forced to dualwield just TKs.

The magian quest could ever been rather creative. Something like adding a new item to some coffers (or a reward from coffer RoE). Turn in so many to upgrade the knife.

Wow, let's not make this incredibly unlikely by asking for ridiculous fixes guys.

[Zhronne]

How about Treasure Hunter scaling according to the ilevel of the weapon in your mainhand? That way we won't have to equip TH gear anymore, and devs won't have to update it whenever the ilevel gets raised again (we all know it's going to happen)

[Selindrile]

How about Treasure Hunter scaling according to the ilevel of the weapon in your mainhand? That way we won't have to equip TH gear anymore, and devs won't have to update it whenever the ilevel gets raised again (we all know it's going to happen)

This is a pretty elegant solution but, it doesn't actually fix the problem unless you remove Thief's Knife which they don't seem to want to do, or make it weirdly like that hidden iLevel TH adds one less if you've got Thief's Knife in your offhand.

Or make it so that both hands count in some way (since thf has native dual wield now) formula could be something like the following:

Total iLevel of Weapons, 200 = TH+1 (Meaning any 2 iLevel weapons)
239 = TH+2 (119 + 120, so whenever they start the next phase.)
??? = TH+3 (The ??? here is 2x the max iLevel in the current phase +1)

[Archades]

Why not average the TH between the hands rounding down or they could lock out off of the weapon's TH with a lower level (in a kind of priority system like the debuffs).

Depending how traits are calculated my first might not be good, but im sure they can do second

[Zhronne]

This is a pretty elegant solution but, it doesn't actually fix the problem unless you remove Thief's Knife which they don't seem to want to do
Simply make so other form of TH+ do not work if you have an ilevel weapon equipped mainhand, or just remove the TH+ from all the items that have it. They're not many, not like it would take them that long, and aside the new 109/119 reforged relic hands it's all old pieces so I doubt there would be an overload of complaints from people (especially because they would get an equal amount of +TH simply by a ilevel weapon in mainhand)

It seems the same as the macc thing, altough this should apply exclusively to THF only.
If anything, the only classes hurt by this change would be those going /THF to reach TH3 with the La'theine sash.
And again, doubt it would matter THAT much.



I mean, this is the only possible way to solve the solution completely. If they don't this, the problem will raise up again in the future. Today it's the turn of Thief's Knife and, to a lesser degree, AF3+2 feet. Tomorrow it will be the turn of Reforged Relic Hands 119, when the ilevel will be 149 and people will feel "forced" to use an ilevel 119 item.
This is a *crucial* aspect.
We do not level anymore past 99.
Our "levelup" comes from items.
If you're "forced" to equip an item lower the level of what you could equip, it would be like capping your level at 73 when the cap was 75. It's just an example, but a powerful one to convey the right concept.
They cannot possibly think to release new items, and new items, and new items, and updated ones, and new updates. They don't have the manpower to address stuff like this that affects a single job.
Just remove the problem at the root and make it scale with your average ilevel or weapon ilevel or whatever else, problem solved.

[Zhronne]

The only issue I see in this solution is, again, how do they handle the "tiers" or the "conversion rate"?
Because if they put a conversion that makes "119 = TH+4" then what's gonna happen when there will be 139 ilevel weapons? Could become TH5 or TH6 I guess, like if in the old model they had added a TH+1 legs, for instance.

And TH past that has such a minimal impact that's more a placebo than real noticeable differences, so I guess it wouldn't impact too much the game's balance in a negative way (and not like ilevel cap raise are going to happen every month anyway)

[Catmato]

The development team was looking into a higher-tier version of Thief’s Knife; however, they felt it would result in thieves equipping both the new knife and the original which would further limit their weapon selection. In order to solve this issue, they are currently looking into placing a cap on treasure hunter from equipment in the future.

This is an acceptable solution, but Camate, please pass on our suggestion for an accessory (ring, earring, etc.) with a Latent effect: Treasure hunter +x, activated by not having a Thief's knife equipped. I and many others feel that this is the best solution.

[Stify]

Greetings,

First off, I would like to apologize for making any English speaking players feel that their requests and feedback were not answered. I can assure you that this was not the case and that threads that are unanswered are communicated to the development team. Unfortunately, sometimes we are unable to answer certain topics, and there are cases where when the team decides to answer, it is first on the Japanese side as that is their native language.

Now then, on to the actual topic at hand.

Though Karbuncle has summarized and posted a translation of what was communicated I would like to give a slightly more official response about this.

The response from Lomloon, as pointed out, contained incorrect information about the way treasure hunter works. It was mentioned in his first post that once you reach a certain level of treasure hunter, the drop rate would not be affected much even if you continue to stack more treasure hunter. This, however, is only talking about common drops, and continuing to add treasure hunter will boost the drop rate for rare items, though it will be a very slight increase.

We’ve informed the development team again about the feedback mentioning that it’s hard to let go of Thief’s Knife while playing in a party as players want to increase the treasure hunter effect to 12.

The development team was looking into a higher-tier version of Thief’s Knife; however, they felt it would result in thieves equipping both the new knife and the original which would further limit their weapon selection. In order to solve this issue, they are currently looking into placing a cap on treasure hunter from equipment in the future.

With this as well as the addition of other equipment with treasure hunter, we are aiming to make it so you can reach the equipment cap and no longer need to use Thief’s Knife. Please also know that we will not be reducing the value of treasure hunter obtainable with current equipment.

While I can’t make any promises as to when this adjustment will take place, we will be sure to keep you updated as there is progress!

Camate, Is it okay to ask is there any plans in the future to assist in increasing Thiefs damage output in possibly increasing SA/TA damage or reducing timers on them since the battle speed in fights now a days has increase so much more and Thiefs are not able to keep up with said abilities?

[Kincard]

I posted that translation of the JP dev post on BlueGartr as some of you probably know (Sorry for stealing your job Camate!). When I read it I actually thought it was a great solution to the problem myself, although I guess I wouldn't mind the latent: TH when no Thief's Knife thing if it wasn't too hard to implement. I was under the impression though, that when they referenced how haste has changed in recent gear design they were basically implying that in the future, Thief gear may be largely filled with TH enough so that in most situations you can cap on gear TH without sacrificing a huge amount of stats (Assassin's Armlets and Raider's Poulaines arn't exactly good pieces themselves, and Plunderer's Armlets still pales compared to Pillager's). This would make an accessory that carries a latent boost a bit superfluous.

[Karbuncle]

I have to think you could be on to something with the haste/TH comparison, But I'm going to file it next to "Pet treasure hunter" until theres more conclusive information on it. Still, as I said, Capping it is a good solution... one we came up with nearly 3 years ago... and I'm glad its making its way into the game, though I imagine its going to cause more backlash from people who don't fundamentally understand how very little they're losing, and if they're capping TH from gear, it negates the possibility of having a higher tier TH in the future, we'll be forever glued at TH6 as a base, instead of possibly TH8 or so in the future if they add more TH+ gear, or even give Raiders-Reforged +2 TH.

This is unless they raise the cap of TH gear to go along with each new addition, which seems like a lot of work.

So, Its a double edged sword adding in a cap, because it stalls the jobs only real use in the eyes of the community. It fixes the immediate problem of THF knife sucking, but as a long term solution it might not serve the better good, which is why I still think an accessory type option that completely replaces Thief Knife would instead be good.

Otherwise, again, they're stunting the growth of TH through gear if they impose a cap, solving one problem and creating another, where as an armor-based replacement solution creates no new problems.


This is an acceptable solution, but Camate, please pass on our suggestion for an accessory (ring, earring, etc.) with a Latent effect: Treasure hunter +x, activated by not having a Thief's knife equipped. I and many others feel that this is the best solution.

and I double this so, pretty please.

[Kincard]

In my humble opinion, Treasure Hunter should've just been abolished entirely and Thief have its development focus changed (The combat control/DPS idea works pretty well, part of me thinks they should've given SCH's SP2 to THF, possibly even as a 10-minute ability or something). Having a job solely dedicated to making items drop is really dumb for an MMO. It's a works fine for like, a single player game (which is basically how they were designing it in the early days, as a "Final Fantasy, Except Online" for real), but nowadays I really wouldn't mind if they just removed it entirely.

[Karbuncle]

I have a thread dedicated to the idea of THF becoming a master of Enmity control, the jist of my ideas are something like.

Separating Collaborator/Accomplice timers. Reducing Accomplice to 3 minutes, and adding new abilities to fit the theme.

Blame - 1 minute timer
Puts 25% of your current enmity onto a target.

Frame - 3 Minute timer
Puts 50% of your current enmity onto a target.

Plead = 3 minute timer
remove 25% of your enmity.

Innocent - 5 minute timer
Dumps 99% of your enmity into nothingnes.

(All named in theme with the Collaborate/accomplice style of naming). This gives THF multiple options of enmity control. Take 50% of the WHMs enmity, dump it onto the PLD. Or take 25% of a DDs enmity and dump it into nothigness, so on, and so forth. This will give enmity control a real value, and THF would likely find its way welcomed into some of the "If you get hate as a DD, you die" fights, like Ark Angels. Well, at least good geared Thieves.

I think at least 1 "Give Enmity" and "Shed Enmity" Ability should be given to THF.

[Raydeus]

Personally I'd rather have stances over having more JAs. Where one stance was all about Enmity transfer and another was about enhancing evasion and others with things like counter on evaded hits.

Stance 1 (Enmity)

Reduces recast times for Collaborator and Accomplice.
Adds a 25% of Enmity transfer to Trick Attack.
Allows Hide to shed all Enmity for a slightly longer time and also work on sound aggro mobs.
Grants an additional 25% Enmity transfer to Trick Attack when used with Sneak Attack (SATA)

Stance 2 (Evasion)

Adds a chance to counter hits after evading.
Enhances Triple Attack rate and evasion for a short time after using Sneak Attack or Trick attack.
Enhances success rate of Steal abilities while under the effect of Hide.


And things like that.

[Karbuncle]

Could see that working, in facts it not a bad idea.. I do recall SE wanting to not add a lot more stances to the game, but i do feel those would be interesting.

[Glamdring]

The development team was looking into a higher-tier version of Thief’s Knife; however, they felt it would result in thieves equipping both the new knife and the original which would further limit their weapon selection. In order to solve this issue, they are currently looking into placing a cap on treasure hunter from equipment in the future.

With this as well as the addition of other equipment with treasure hunter, we are aiming to make it so you can reach the equipment cap and no longer need to use Thief’s Knife. Please also know that we will not be reducing the value of treasure hunter obtainable with current equipment.

While I can’t make any promises as to when this adjustment will take place, we will be sure to keep you updated as there is progress!

They could also easily prevent a DW thief's knife situation by keeping it R/Ex but with an upgrade quest. so the upgraded knife still blocked using a 2nd original version

[Lilbittythang]

All you have to do is equip your TH set and poke any mob 1 time and your TH is on it. Afterwards put on what you want. Is it really that difficult to make a macro for these few pieces of gear, and to carry them in your 80 slot inventory. "But I lose my TP" ; ; boo hoo WS first then equip it, or if TH is more important don't. If damage is more important to you then don't use it at all. So you proc TH 1 level lower it won't hurt your drops on anything you're looking to do damage on that it's inappropriate or inconvenient for you to swap daggers for 1 swing. Please do not cap TH in gear, and continue making more pieces with it on it for those situations where we want the highest TH possible, and we're willing to change every piece of gear necessary to achieve this goal. If you don't like TH knife then don't use it. If you do like it then who cares what level it is, or how outdated it is put it on smack once and change gear for one of the newer much better daggers.

[Olor]

All you have to do is equip your TH set and poke any mob 1 time and your TH is on it. Afterwards put on what you want. Is it really that difficult to make a macro for these few pieces of gear, and to carry them in your 80 slot inventory. "But I lose my TP" ; ; boo hoo WS first then equip it, or if TH is more important don't.

Pretty sure they said awhile ago that if you take off any TH gear your TH goes down in effectiveness on the target, even if you hit them with higher level TH

[Lilbittythang]

Pretty sure they said awhile ago that if you take off any TH gear your TH goes down in effectiveness on the target, even if you hit them with higher level TH

Meaning your TH becomes gimped like a lesser TH or meaning you're less likely to proc a higher TH lvl? If it's the first then that's where their system is broken and should be fixed not on worrying about the crappy dagger. If it's the latter then back to my original post if it's more important for a higher quality TH than DD then put your gear on and suck it up. If you need more DD accept the lesser TH and put on DD gear.

[Syhrie]

The absolute main problem THF has right now is not TH gear, its the THFs that continuously want to make a fight as long as possible to proc TH up. Even if dev's go with this TH Gear cap solution, I can promise everyone that the new weapons of choice are going to be Twilight Knife/Merc. Kris, to purposely make NMs last as long as possible. If this is going to be implemented PLEASE make it so iLvl weapons affect the chance of procing TH. On higher difficulty fights a THF would choose a higher lvl weapon so that would be moot point, but the main reason players use THF are to farm fodder NM drops. Please tie in TH procs with ilvl!

[Catmato]

Meaning your TH becomes gimped like a lesser TH or meaning you're less likely to proc a higher TH lvl? If it's the first then that's where their system is broken and should be fixed not on worrying about the crappy dagger. If it's the latter then back to my original post if it's more important for a higher quality TH than DD then put your gear on and suck it up. If you need more DD accept the lesser TH and put on DD gear.

Wow. What job do you play that you're afraid of THF doing a little more damage? These suggestions really don't hurt anyone. Actually, they help everyone with more damage and higher TH.

[FrankReynolds]

Meaning your TH becomes gimped like a lesser TH or meaning you're less likely to proc a higher TH lvl? If it's the first then that's where their system is broken and should be fixed not on worrying about the crappy dagger. If it's the latter then back to my original post if it's more important for a higher quality TH than DD then put your gear on and suck it up. If you need more DD accept the lesser TH and put on DD gear.

I agree. They should take it a step further and do this for all jobs though. Let's make it so martial arts only works if you full time brass knuckles and warcry / berzerk/ double attack only work if you equip a level 60 axe. Let's have dual wield tied to level 70 katanas.

Let's really make the game interesting for all the jobs!

[Mirage]

The absolute main problem THF has right now is not TH gear, its the THFs that continuously want to make a fight as long as possible to proc TH up. Even if dev's go with this TH Gear cap solution, I can promise everyone that the new weapons of choice are going to be Twilight Knife/Merc. Kris, to purposely make NMs last as long as possible. If this is going to be implemented PLEASE make it so iLvl weapons affect the chance of procing TH. On higher difficulty fights a THF would choose a higher lvl weapon so that would be moot point, but the main reason players use THF are to farm fodder NM drops. Please tie in TH procs with ilvl!

Tying TH upgrade rate to your average iLv actually isn't a bad idea. Let TH gear decide the starting level and iLv the upgrade rate.

[Dragoy]

Pretty sure they said awhile ago that if you take off any TH gear your TH goes down in effectiveness on the target, even if you hit them with higher level TH

I thought it was like so, for example:

Engage (and/or attack/use an ability against) a target while possessing treasure hunter level 5.
Remove any equipment that enhances the effect, resulting into the level being 5 still, but the chance of it going higher from that will be lower.

[Karbuncle]

its as you described Dragoy.

Trreasure hunter cannot be lowered on the enemy. If you hit with 7, then switch to 3, its still 7. Your chances of raising it past 7 will be based on a TH3 though.

See, the further you are from your current TH level in gear/JT, the harder it is to upgrade TH - Stupid design personally - but thems the breaks.

[Powder]

Greetings,

The development team was looking into a higher-tier version of Thief’s Knife; however, they felt it would result in thieves equipping both the new knife

My first thought when I read this was I would be happy to have to dump my thief's knife for a better one. Maybe, somehow you could make it where we can't equip or hold a new and old thief's knife. If we want the new one we have to dump the old one. Just my thinking.

[Karbuncle]

Think i'm just going to take a 2x4, write "Accessory thats has TH+1 Latent Effect only active when Thief's Knife is not equipped" on it then start beating people over the head with it whenever they suggest an upgrade or weapon based solution.

iluguys

[Blah]

Ah I hate to ask this especially if some1 already did but...why did they ever muck things up and put it on a weapon in the 1st place? I understand maybe putting it on an entire outfit but a weapon? When they knew they'd eventually be raising the level cap? Kind of a DUH move.

[Mirage]

Think i'm just going to take a 2x4, write "Accessory thats has TH+1 Latent Effect only active when Thief's Knife is not equipped" on it then start beating people over the head with it whenever they suggest an upgrade or weapon based solution.

iluguys

This is what I've said several times too.

Or just abolish TH completely and remake thf into a job that is actually good.

[Blah]

This is what I've said several times too.

Or just abolish TH completely and remake thf into a job that is actually good.

Now wait a minute, let's not let the frustration at this dilemma start making us attack the job itself.

[Catmato]

Ah I hate to ask this especially if some1 already did but...why did they ever muck things up and put it on a weapon in the 1st place? I understand maybe putting it on an entire outfit but a weapon? When they knew they'd eventually be raising the level cap? Kind of a DUH move.

They didn't know they were going to raise the level cap. Most of the game was designed around level 75 being the permanent cap.

[Blah]

They didn't know they were going to raise the level cap. Most of the game was designed around level 75 being the permanent cap.
Well now I heard that that isn't true, again might be a ffxi urban legend but some1 said they saw the 99 cap while you know, searching way back in 2007-2008. you know, how when you could search for 50 to 60 and you could get everyone from 50 to 60 in the area? People said that you could put it up to 99 even back then but when they asked SE if they were going to raise it to 99 they always denied it.

[Karbuncle]

I believe in Beta, Sage Sundi appeared as a level 80 DRK or so - I think? the data for 99 has been in the game since the beginning if i recall... as Blah pointed out, you could /sea level ranges like 70-80, 80-90, so forth and I usually found typing /sea all 1-99 easier and it would bring up everything.

It could simply be the system recognizing the data for ease of use, but I think they programmed it in the beginning to accept up to level 99 (or 100?), just never used it. There's a solid chance that the game was never going to go past 75, but SE decided to raise the cap late enough into the games life to give people a new experience... Who knows.

[Catmato]

Well now I heard that that isn't true, again might be a ffxi urban legend but some1 said they saw the 99 cap while you know, searching way back in 2007-2008. you know, how when you could search for 50 to 60 and you could get everyone from 50 to 60 in the area? People said that you could put it up to 99 even back then but when they asked SE if they were going to raise it to 99 they always denied it.


Originally we planned or thought about level caps up to 200 but we finally decided on 75 because it was a good number and the release of the merit point system is what finalized 75 as the highest level possible. We won't be raising it at any point in the future.

Source: http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/wiki/Fan_Festival_2008_Developer_Q%26A

[Blah]

Like I said, they denied it when asked, but if it really is true then why have the 99 essentially programmed in?

[Catmato]

Like I said, they denied it when asked, but if it really is true then why have the 99 essentially programmed in?

The could "essentially" raise the level cap to 255 if they wanted, possibly even up to 65535, without having to reprogram anything, just changing some variables.

[Blah]

:D
The could "essentially" raise the level cap to 255 if they wanted, possibly even up to 65535, without having to reprogram anything, just changing some variables.

YAAAAAAY I get to be 65535

[Mirage]

The could "essentially" raise the level cap to 255 if they wanted, possibly even up to 65535, without having to reprogram anything, just changing some variables.
They might need to implement stat-tables for the higher levels, unless the stats are generated according to a set of mathematical formulas that will scale neatly up to any level. Of course, changing the level cap without giving us higher stats is also completely possible to do, but wouldn't serve any purpose in the new areas, as level correction was removed.

If they aren't automatically generated, they'd probably need to manually decide the values for these stats at each level.

[Catmato]

:D

YAAAAAAY I get to be 65535
They might need to implement stat-tables for the higher levels, unless the stats are generated according to a set of mathematical formulas that will scale neatly up to any level. Of course, changing the level cap without giving us higher stats is also completely possible to do, but wouldn't serve any purpose in the new areas, as level correction was removed.

If they aren't automatically generated, they'd probably need to manually decide the values for these stats at each level.

I'm not going to continue arguing semantics or explain the basics of programming as it's thoroughly off-topic.

Reiterating my earlier post, I believe they put TH on an underpowered weapon because they hadn't planned on raising the level cap and introducing DMG:100+ daggers. It's a moot point now anyway with the TH cap.