Whats your favorite subjob for RDM? What is your least favorite?

[ManaKing]

Don't include any subjobs that you don't actually play in your least favorite. That is cheating.


My favorite is /DRK. I get TP for nuking and actual WSs to use it with. Stun and Absorb-TP are nice against harder Mobs. Last Resort and Other Absorbs are also fun. I can land Dark Magic on most mobs. I can proc all dark yellows that aren't BLU or BRD, I can proc 5 Red procs.


My least favorite is /WHM. You get 1 job trait and 1 job ability. Auto REGEN and Divine seal every 10 minutes. There are 2 more job abilities at level 40, but WHM doesn't like to share. So besides curing status affects, which i'm more than happy to /WHM for if I know about it ahead of time, I don't get what the big deal is.

[Economizer]

Easier would just be to list pros of each sub.


Warrior
Provoke, Berserk, Defender, Warcry, Aggressor, Defense Bonus, Double Attack (10%), Attack Bonus, Fencer. Additional access to Sword and Club weapon skills.
White Mage
Divine Seal, Auto-Regen, complete access to -na spells, Reraise, Barspellras, Teleports, Banishga, Flash, and eventually Repose. Increased access to Club weapon skills.
Monk
Boost, Dodge, Focus, Chakra, Chi Blast, Martial Arts IV, Subtle Blow II, Counter, Max HP Boost II. Guard skill.
Black Mage
Elemental Seal. Drain, Aspir, Warp, Warp II, Stun, Escape, Tractor, Sleepga, Elemental Debuffs, low level AOE nukes.
Thief
Steal, Sneak Attack, Flee, Trick Attack, Mug, Hide, Gilfinder, Evasion Bonus II, Treasure Hunter II.
Red Mage
~ Um... Yeah.
Paladin
Holy Circle, Shield Bash, Sentinel, Cover, Undead Killer, Shield Mastery, Defense Bonus II, Auto Refresh. Flash. Increased access to Sword and Club weapon skills.
Dark Knight
Arcane Circle, Last Resort, Weapon Bash, Souleater, Arcana Killer, Attack Bonus II, Occult Acumen, Stalwart Soul, Drain, Aspir, Absorb-Spells, Absorb-TP, Stun, Tractor. Increased access to Sword and Club weapon skills.
Beastmaster
Charm, Gauge, Reward, Tame, Vermin Killer, Bird Killer, Amorph Killer, Lizard Killer, Wide Scan III. Pet Commands: Fight, Heel, Stay, Sic, Leave.
Bard
Songs, notably Threnodies, Carols, Lullabies, Magic Finally, Mages Ballad, Advancing March, and Battlefield Elegy.
Ranger
Sharpshot, Scavenge, Camouflage, Barrage, Shadowbind, Alertness, Rapid Shot, Accuracy Bonus II, Wide Scan IV. Access to Archery and Marksmenship weapon skills.
Samurai
Warding Circle, Third Eye, Hasso, Meditate, Seigan, Sekkanoki, Zanshin, Store TP II, Demon Killer. Increased access to Club weapon skills.
Ninja
Stealth, Dual Wield III, Subtle Blow III. Tonko, Monomi, Dokumori: Ichi, Jubaku: Ichi, Kurayami: Ni, Hojo: Ichi (and soon Hojo: Ni), Ninja Wheel, Utsusemi.
Dragoon
Ancient Circle, Jump, High Jump, Attack Bonus, Dragon Killer, Accuracy Bonus. Wyvern Targe/Earring latent effects.
Summoner
Auto Refresh, Max MP Boost II. Summons. Blood Pacts including Sleepga, Nightmare, and soon, Hastega and Noctoshield.
Blue Mage
Burst Affinity, Chain Affinity. Blue Magic such as Metallic Body, Cocoon, Foot Kick, Smite of Rage, Blank Gaze, and many others and soon Jettatura. Increased access to Sword and Club weapon skills.
Corsair
Phantom Roll (one roll, half potency), Double-Up, Quick Draw, Rapid Shot. Phantom Rolls, such as Evoker's Role. Access to Marksmanship weapon skills.
Puppetmaster
Activate, Repair, Martial Arts, Evasion Bonus II. Puppet. Guard Skill. Pet Commands: Deploy, Deactivate, Retrieve, Maneuvers.
Dancer
Accuracy Bonus, Dual Wield II, Evasion Bonus II, Subtle Blow II, Skillchain Bonus, Aspir Samba, Drain Samba II, Haste Samba, Divine Waltz, Healing Waltz, Curing Waltz I, II, III, Spectral Jig, Quickstep, Box Step, Stutter Step, Animated Flourish, Desperate Flourish, Violent Flourish, Reverse Flourish.
Scholar
Light Arts, Dark Arts, Sublimation, Max MP Boost. Stratagems: Penury, Addendum: White, Celerity, Accession, Parsimony, Alacrity, Addendum: Black, Manifestation. Drain, Aspir, Reraise, most -na spells (but not Stona), Sandstorm, Rainstorm, Windstorm, Klimaform, Firestorm and soon, Hailstorm. Light/Dark Arts increase skills, most notably Dark Magic and Elemental Magic.


Every one of these are useful for Red Mage, considering how adaptable the job is, although some have much harder times finding a useful situation. Dark Knight, Paladin, White Mage, Black Mage, Scholar, Ninja, Dancer, and Blue Mage are probably the most useful (no particular order), with many other jobs having strong niches too. If I had to rate one as the least useful for Red Mage, I'd probably have to go with Dragoon, but I'm sure someone could prove me wrong on that somehow.

[ManaKing]

I only point out that you can't use any Marksmanship Weapon skills because RDMs don't have access to any Marksmanship Weapons. This in turn stops you from being able to Quick Draw your own Enfeebles, IE Slow/Para/Blind 3 and Dia/Bio 4 with /COR. I would RDM/COR if they offered this.

[Trangnai]

My fav for frontline roles is /nin and /dnc /nin when solo or shadows are required and /dnc for when I'm filling support role.

my fav for backline roles would be /sch... but I still need to level it ._.;;

my least fav is /whm cause lolpinkmage and it dosent offer much that sch dosent. but until i get off my rear and level sch its all i have.

I also like /rng just for fun as well as /blu.

[saevel]

Favorite is /NIN for overall use, /DNC for situational support use.

Then /DRK for when Stun is needed, I can use absorb spells along with LR/SE for the final zerg push on the NM.

Then either /SCH for full on support, or /BLM for full on support with stun.

/WAR used to be great but currently DW crush's S+Shield and /DRK provides much of /WAR with added bonus's of dark magic.

[Economizer]

I only point out that you can't use any Marksmanship Weapon skills because RDMs don't have access to any Marksmanship Weapons.

Sorry about the mistake, I was making a fairly long list and Corsair was near the end... well that and it is one of the less common ones, probably for the reasons you mentioned. Not having access to Marksmenship kinda sucks... maybe we'll see an event all jobs Gun/Bullet combo for an event if SE is feeling generous - can anyone think of one of the seasonal events where hunting would be encouraged? Maybe we can petition SE for this.

[Crimson_Slasher]

Ill put my hat in for /drk and /nin as favorite subs, prolly drk a bit more till we get some native ws access. As for least favorite, it shouldnt be considered a sub because i cant think of real reasons to use it but /pup, i have gotten light use out of it for healing support but its such a generally unhelpful sub to me that i cant find any regular use for it.

[cidbahamut]

Least favorite is no contest, White Mage. Of all the things you can end up doing on Red Mage my least favorite is baby-sitting status effects. I tend to miss some even with my chat filters set up properly, especially when they come from TP moves and don't show up in the log. It's a very unrewarding task and being asked to come /WHM inevitably means that's what I'll be spending a lot of my time doing.

Favorite subjob is a little trickier to pick. I love Black Mage for its access to Stun, but I think I'd have to pick Scholar. It's my go-to sub for anything that doesn't require more stuns. A lot of the time I'll have to bounce between a few different roles over the course of a night and it isn't really feasible to run back to the mog house every time that happens. For switching roles on the fly Scholar is pretty decent. It's a solid boost to our offensive game but it doesn't cut us off from -na spells should we suddenly need them(barring Stona of course). Really though, it's all about Sandstorm + Desert Boots since I lack access to Go Faster Pants.

[saevel]

Ill put my hat in for /drk and /nin as favorite subs, prolly drk a bit more till we get some native ws access. As for least favorite, it shouldnt be considered a sub because i cant think of real reasons to use it but /pup, i have gotten light use out of it for healing support but its such a generally unhelpful sub to me that i cant find any regular use for it.

Yeah /NIN takes a nosedive without Almace. Death Blossum was ~ok~ at 75, not since then the game has moved on and DB just doesn't scale well. Definitely must use Evisceration but dagger's are limited, you basically have Twilight and the DMG42 "Resist" dagger.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Favorite back at 75 was either War (campaign only) or Sch/Drk depending on what I was doing. I like doing Stun and if I could get in range, weapon bash for hilarity's sake.

At 95 I would say favorite is either Sch or Nin (if meleeing).

My least favorite is Whm, since bar Stona it feels pretty redundant now.

[Greatguardian]

Personally, I'd really like to see some RDM/MNK running around taking advantage of that awesome Martial Arts IV trait and Guard Skill. With any luck, they might actually be able to hit EPs with their D:crap weapons. Seriously, was this a for cereals mention here? Rdm/MNK?

It's all fine and good to talk about the theoretical advantages of some of those subs, but the vast majority would never work in practice.

RDM/BRD would be fundamentally incapable of landing any of those debuffs, and would only be able to use one gimped song at a time. Advancing March with 133~ish Singing skill and no instrument is not even 5% Haste, and that's literally all you would get from your subjob.

RDM/PUP, again you bring up guard skill and Martial Arts traits like they matter at all. Rdm has no native H2H skill, and thus no attack, no accuracy, and no base weapon damage for H2H weapons. Melee'ing with h2h as a 95RDM/47PUP is the equivalent of throwing a lv47 PUP at your target without the level correction penalties. Any pets you summon will be woefully outmatched, and essentially useless aside from Activate > Heal > Deactivate spamming, and only then if you're lucky enough for them not to take any AoE damage during their active time which would reset their Activate timer.

RDM/COR with one basic roll at half potency. I'm not even sure what this is supposed to accomplish. Evoker's would probably be the only thing worth using at half potency, and even then without the party bonus you're unlikely to ever get more than 1 MP/tic back from it. Is giving up your subjob for +5-10 accuracy from Hunter's Roll, or +3-8% attack from Chaos roll a good deal? As mentioned earlier, quick draw is out and there are no low level Marksmanship WS worth using at all anyways.

The vast majority of the subs you mention completely ignore the very real effect of combat skill gimping. Yeah, I could go sub MNK on my White Mage, but that wouldn't make it a martial artist capable of attacking with its bare fists. Yeah, even if RDM could equip a Crossbow, having access to low-tier Marksmanship WS doesn't do anything because they will never actually land (or land for more than 0 damage).

Heck, with even Ninja sub, you only really needed to mention DW3 and Utsusemi. Ninjutsu's level 47 cap is nowhere near sufficient to land enfeebles on anything you'd be fighting at level 95, and even then Red Mage natively gets those same enfeebles anyways.

This game has been out for over 8 years. I thought people got over the fact that you can't just sub any job on any main and actually garner a tangible benefit from it ages ago.

I almost exclusively use RDM/SCH. RDM/NIN if I feel like I need it, though I only do this while solo.

[saevel]

RDM/NIN is definitely more then DWIII and Utsusemi. The NI line of spells are -30 magic resistance and have the same resist rate as Dia. That has proven to be extremely helpful in landing full potency paralyze / slows.

[Neisan_Quetz]

That's about equal to a HQ staff. Who knows what Klima is though.

[Crimson_Slasher]

rdm/mnk does have some select uses, not for hand to hand or guard (though raging fists on rdm on waaaaay too weak mobs is fun) Ive personally made use of counterstance, chakra, focus, and dodge a bit in abyssea on rdm, just tooling around, and the hp isnt too bad, either i might add! But id still not use it unless i had some theory to test.

[Economizer]

I'm sorry I was just listing a vanilla post about all the possibilities rather then what they mean, but I wasn't trying to say how everything was useful. I'm not about to get into a pointless arguement about which is the most useful sub, but to point out some things you missed on two of the jobs - I'm sure I could (but I won't) point out stuff on the other jobs that was missed - if it actually mattered.


Personally, I'd really like to see some RDM/MNK running around taking advantage of that awesome Martial Arts IV trait and Guard Skill. With any luck, they might actually be able to hit EPs with their D:crap weapons. Seriously, was this a for cereals mention here? Rdm/MNK?

Counter and Abyssea. Maybe there are more viable solo choices, but this is a working combo.


Heck, with even Ninja sub, you only really needed to mention DW3 and Utsusemi. Ninjutsu's level 47 cap is nowhere near sufficient to land enfeebles on anything you'd be fighting at level 95, and even then Red Mage natively gets those same enfeebles anyways.

Ninjutsu enfeebles are amazingly useful. The resist from low skill only affects damage but even that is mitigated by magic accuracy and magic attack bonus gear.

Not every sub is going to be useful, but considering how many are, it shows how rounded out Red Mage can be.

[Greatguardian]

Ninjutsu enfeebles with floored accuracy are more useful than full Red Mage potency enfeebles?

Magic Accuracy affects the potency of RDM debuffs on anything that isn't immune to enfeebles?

Kay.

Rdm/Mnk is a decent enough tooling around sub, same as Whm/Mnk. I'm just baffled by the fact that you would list Martial Arts and Guard in there as if they mean anything at all. That list was woefully misleading. Just because a Rdm/Smn can call Garuda doesn't mean it can actually DD with it, etc.

[ManaKing]

Lol I thought I was the only RDM/DRK anymore. LR is such a nice buff, if you remember to keep it up. Doesn't make up for DW, but nothing does, so w/e.

[Economizer]

That list was woefully misleading.

I'm not sorry that listing everything subs do could somehow be in some deceptive way be twisted to be remotely in the smallest tiniest most absurd way to be misleading. The only thing "wrong" about the list is Corsair Marksmenship bit - which I admitted was something I overlooked.

On mentioning Ninjustsu enfeebles, I meant the debuff aspect of the Ninja wheel. Technically my statement was still correct, which is the best kind of correct. :p

[saevel]

Ninjutsu enfeebles with floored accuracy are more useful than full Red Mage potency enfeebles?

Magic Accuracy affects the potency of RDM debuffs on anything that isn't immune to enfeebles?

Kay.

Rdm/Mnk is a decent enough tooling around sub, same as Whm/Mnk. I'm just baffled by the fact that you would list Martial Arts and Guard in there as if they mean anything at all. That list was woefully misleading. Just because a Rdm/Smn can call Garuda doesn't mean it can actually DD with it, etc.

Enfeebles suck period.

Magic Accuracy effects the potency of your C- nukes, especially as RDM/NIN isn't going to be using HQ staves.
Ex.

Suiton: Ni
QM JA
Thunder IV
Thunder IV

[Greatguardian]

Enfeebles suck period.

Magic Accuracy effects the potency of your C- nukes, especially as RDM/NIN isn't going to be using HQ staves.
Ex.

Suiton: Ni
QM JA
Thunder IV
Thunder IV

Nah. They'll be using Magian staves if they're worth half a crap.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Nah. They'll be using Magian staves if they're worth half a crap.

They wouldn't be /nin if they used Staves...

[Neisan_Quetz]

Shouldn't be meleeing mobs where macc matters imo.

[cidbahamut]

They wouldn't be /nin if they used Staves...

You keep telling yourself that.

[ManaKing]

You demons with you staves. Can't a guy enjoy his swords in peace? JK play however makes you feel happy. RDM isnt being taken seriously yet anyways.

[Seriha]

I disagree. Seriously.

[saevel]

I melee many monster where M.acc matters, although that tends to be on nukes rather then enfeebles.

Contrary to popular belief, monsters do not level up, gain +100 TP, or rage whenever a RDM pulls their weapons out.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Nor is your sword suddenly relevant.

[Crimson_Slasher]

Swords on rdm are like opinions, most people dont like to hear people have them. But even if you ignore it, its still gonna be there. So why not have people with good ones. A good sword is more liked, and so is a good opinion, be constructive.

[Greatguardian]

Swords are like opinions.

Great fun to toy around with by yourself or with a close friend or two.

Horribly inappropriate to whip out in a room full of people, no matter how "good" it is.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Really is there no sanctuary on the RDM forums, this conversation is so tired and boring.

[ManaKing]

Oh yeah! No this will never get old. No one seems to realize the obvious.

Some people play RDM with swords. Some people play RDM with Staves. Saying which way you prefer it isn't going to change the fact that they other group exists and since SE has no actual intention of quelling either party with fire and brimstone, it will always be that way.

Magian Staffs: Check
Magian Swords: Check

Effectiveness of a RDM pretending they are a BLM/WHM: Inferior
Effectiveness of a RDM pretending they are a DD: Inferior

Fun factor on playing with a Staff or a Sword: Completely Based on Opinion

So if you don't realize there is another way to play your job out there and that other people like it, then you just don't notice the obvious.

[saevel]

It's a discussion on subjobs, some are mage orientated some are melee orientated. Can't have this discussion without the melee side being represented. And seeing as SE has not only said no, but "HELL NO" to the pink magers, you won't see RDM go back to "staff onry" ever again.

And just for sh!ts and giggles.

http://i537.photobucket.com/albums/ff338/palladin9479/FFXI%20Pics/IldebrannCDC.png

Its' not being a "DD", if I was only going to melee then I'd come on my WAR, BLU, SAM or DRK. It's a combination of supporting, enfeebling and doing damage when applicable. That and your incredibly difficult to kill. I do in equal measures

Dia III
Refresh II (on healers)
Cure IV (lots of Cure IV)
Various enfeebles, Slow II / Para II / Addle / Poison II.
Smacking Monster with sword
Spamming CDC
Checking Procs (depending on event and as directed).

I find myself incredibly busy, and it's an insanely fun play-style.

[Greatguardian]

lol, RDM/NIN is a melee-oriented subjob.

Kay.

Nice max damage full temp item screenshots, though. They're totally relevant. Here, I can post one too:

http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/gallery/5cfbf977df1e73ade7c96059426e9204.jpg

I average about 8.2-9.1k on NMs, but I only WS them when I have all temp items and buffs up (tm)

[Neisan_Quetz]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/16189-Where-s-our-Relic...?p=218815&viewfull=1#post218815

(letters)

[ManaKing]

Plenty of people can justify Staff only, because that is how they want to play. I personally don't touch the things and I never really have. I'd rather build a Macc Dark Sword or keep working on my Murgleis. There is some validity to the potency of staffs for those that want to increase their nuking damage, but it will completely nullify your ability to WS or melee at all.

SE didn't say people couldn't be Pink Mages, they just said that a WHM will blatantly outclass them, because that is their job and they are well equipped to do so. The bigger issue is that RDMs don't have a well defined role because SE made Enfeebling a joke.

My honest opinion on the matter is that any RDM, regardless of play style, should be up in arms about the current state of enfeebling and they should be up in arms together. It doesn't matter what your play style for RDM is currently, you should have figured out by now that you can't make a RDM good anymore because they broke our most important function: Enfeebling.

I don't care if you use a sword or a staff, you aren't as good as any other job in the game because neither of those are going to make up for the fact that we aren't better nukers, healers, or melee'ers than any job that actually specializes in those things. If you hadn't noticed, you can only do 1 think at a time. So after you are done checking how immune the mob is to your enfeebles, you can attempt to validify your existence in a serious party by half ass-ing any one of those 3 things. Since you don't have the job abilities, job traits, equipment, or spell library to compete with other jobs, you are going to come up short.

Stop fighting about your differences and start getting offended that your common ground is barren. There is no actual reason that RDM should be in the state that it is in. It's still a good job and a fun job, but it's not a particularly well equipped to be taken seriously in the current game. Who cares how hard you Nuke or WS? That is secondary stuff. Crippling your adversaries and defending your allies should be your first concern. How you achieve that is up to you.

[cidbahamut]

If you hadn't noticed, you can only do 1 think at a time.


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_NQ6dP9_4MMo/R_p0GmuqP8I/AAAAAAAAAGA/etWpTaH29Ic/s400/Lolwut-verbose.jpg

[Karbuncle]

1 Thing at a time?

nonono, Good people can multi-task.

[Crimson_Slasher]

Greatguardian...did you just show a post of a mob in abyssea and compared it to a voidwatch mob? Really? You tried to disprove him and went into the sandbox zone to do it? Im sorry but to me that just lost you all credability and exposed your "I GET THE LAST WORD AND WANT TO MAKE YOU LOOK BAD SO I CAN WIN" attitude.

Not to mention thats 3 different ws and even if with max buff/temps is still a nice output.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Greatguardian...did you just show a post of a mob in abyssea and compared it to a voidwatch mob? Really? You tried to disprove him and went into the sandbox zone to do it? Im sorry but to me that just lost you all credability and exposed your "I GET THE LAST WORD AND WANT TO MAKE YOU LOOK BAD SO I CAN WIN" attitude.

Not to mention thats 3 different ws and even if with max buff/temps is still a nice output.

You missed my post about why his screenshot was meaningless.

[Crimson_Slasher]

No i didnt Neisan, im just more appauled great guardian would use that kinda comparison. It holds no water in my book.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Neither does that screenshot, so both are equally relevant.

[Crimson_Slasher]

If you say so, i personally think the screenshot about a monk/pup ws on a redmage board cant ever be "equally relevent" to a weaponskill useable by a redmage on a redmage board. And no math, insults, angry thoughts, or anything short of proof he wasnt rdm at the time of its use will convince me otherwise.

[saevel]

Greatguardian...did you just show a post of a mob in abyssea and compared it to a voidwatch mob? Really? You tried to disprove him and went into the sandbox zone to do it? Im sorry but to me that just lost you all credability and exposed your "I GET THE LAST WORD AND WANT TO MAKE YOU LOOK BAD SO I CAN WIN" attitude.

Not to mention thats 3 different ws and even if with max buff/temps is still a nice output.


As I've said, haters gonna hate. Just add them to ignore list, that way I never have to deal with GG trolling.

The really funny part is, that wasn't doctored or planned at all. We had just finished killing Tiamat VWNM and I remembered a bunch of people hated and screamed "POIDH!!!101010101". So I scrolled through the log on screen and took snaps of what was there, the last three WS I did. Previously to those three I had done about four or five others, but they scrolled off the screen.

There really is nothing that stops a RDM from dealing damage, no hidden JT that is -100 attack or other silliness. Gear, food, weapons buffs and debuffs, all you need. Gear I've listed before, food was Bison Steak, offensive buffs were haste / enspell / temper, also used the stalwarts tonic, braver's drink and fools drink. Offensive debuffs were Dia III, no dragoon present for Agnon.

The whole point of that pic is to irrefutable proof that should a player put their mind to it, they can deal amazing damage on a "lolRDM". Doesn't mean your only meleeing, good lords no, but dealing damage by virtue of your swords is an option. Melee for damage when possible, if the situation starts getting really hairy then you can always drop back and go pure support mode. Heck I have a special Cure IV macro along with my Cure Pot +10% sword, for when those situations deem it necessary. <stal> is your friend.

The "mage onry" argument would hold more water if there was actually things that required 100% full attention, but with enfeebling completely broken and us unable to be a main healer (melee and main healing do NOT go together), what exactly would a "mage onry" player do? Cast more haste? More refresh? More CureIV? Cast more enfeebles that will get resisted. Slow II / Dia III / Para II aren't exactly hard to land, unless the mobs straight up resistant, and then your no better off in the back. When asked the question, what exactly would a "mage onry" RDM do, the inevitable answer from them is "go change to WHM", thus rendering their entire argument moot.

So like always, haters gonna hate, just gotta ignore them.

[saevel]

If you say so, i personally think the screenshot about a monk/pup ws on a redmage board cant ever be "equally relevent" to a weaponskill useable by a redmage on a redmage board. And no math, insults, angry thoughts, or anything short of proof he wasnt rdm at the time of its use will convince me otherwise.

Was RDM/NIN, if people want I can post my TP / WS gears, their not exactly exotic. Lately been working on a -DT/PDT set for TPing. Seems the higher tier VWNM's work better when front liners can survive the aoe's.

[saevel]

You missed my post about why his screenshot was meaningless.

Your just miffed that it exists. Your under the effects of your own cognitive dissonance, ain't nothing nobody says will ever change your mind. There could be piled of proof and all you'll do is plug your ears and say it doesn't exist. Thus we ignore you.

[Neisan_Quetz]

What exists? That you can post high damage screenshots with all temps then stop WSing when temps are down? You already got proven wrong, no one has to listen to what you say.

The fact you have 2 better dds and 1 better hybrid job, and go Rdm for merit spell procs + Dia says something.

[cidbahamut]

As I've said, haters gonna hate. Just add them to ignore list, that way I never have to deal with GG trolling.

http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpngb7VwI21qgonjqo1_500.jpg

[Greatguardian]

If you say so, i personally think the screenshot about a monk/pup ws on a redmage board cant ever be "equally relevent" to a weaponskill useable by a redmage on a redmage board. And no math, insults, angry thoughts, or anything short of proof he wasnt rdm at the time of its use will convince me otherwise.

You missed the point of the screenshot. The point was that my screenshot meant about as much as his did.

How much did my screenshot mean? Nothing.

Woohoo. 1+1 = 2.

No one denies that even a RDM can lop off the occasional 2k CDC with all of their temps loaded up to bear. Saevel originally claimed that he averaged those numbers, and the community collectively said "BULLSHIT" and proved him wrong.

Now he seems to have ret-conned this by claiming that he only WS's with max temps and buffs on. I say, fine. When I only WS with max temps and buffs on, I average 9k, or 4k+ outside Abyssea on Not-RDM. That doesn't mean any of those numbers mean jack shit, which is the point.

ITT though: 2k damage on a VWNM is amazing damage. I average that on Corsair with no temps.

[Crimson_Slasher]

Even under favorable/maximum conditions, i will always side with the subject of the topic. It doesnt matter if someone smuggled a primeval brew out of abyssea and gave it to him, its still showing something a red mage can do and thats all that matters on the redmage board, it doesnt matter how, why, when, or what to me, because its still a redmage doing something. And even in the situation of it being red mage meleeing with temps, it doesnt diminish its merit, especially when the nukes under said temps are likely to hit about that too. Though if you wanna get some Blu and Pld numbers with the same weapon/ws and temps off pld/blu, thats something that can be more closely compared to me and i can look at that to see the difference. Till then, even if it was under conditions that arent regular, i still say good job!

[saevel]

Even under favorable/maximum conditions, i will always side with the subject of the topic. It doesnt matter if someone smuggled a primeval brew out of abyssea and gave it to him, its still showing something a red mage can do and thats all that matters on the redmage board, it doesnt matter how, why, when, or what to me, because its still a redmage doing something. And even in the situation of it being red mage meleeing with temps, it doesnt diminish its merit, especially when the nukes under said temps are likely to hit about that too. Though if you wanna get some Blu and Pld numbers with the same weapon/ws and temps off pld/blu, thats something that can be more closely compared to me and i can look at that to see the difference. Till then, even if it was under conditions that arent regular, i still say good job!


Ahh their taking the "its rigged under X / Y / Z situation!!!10101" route? Their all on my ignore list and while NQ can ~sometimes~ say put together words that sound like an intelligent response, most of what comes out it vitrol. So I don't even bother reading what they say, my words aren't for them and they've made themselves into the peanut gallery.

Every other player has the exact same temps I have, their all replenished every HV proc and one is randomly replenished every regular proc. They last a good amount of time, no reason not to spam them. Plus its not like their doubling your damage or anything, Bravers is only +20 to your stats and Stalwarts is just more attack, something any job can get. A BLU/WAR using zerk and DW should put up higher numbers, but honestly between food, stalwarts and Dia III everyone was hitting attack cap. A PLD though usually is /WAR for voke, without DW their missing a hit so their numbers are a bit lower.

Its kinda funny, outside of those same VWNM fights that I use temps on, there is nothing we can't cap attack on. So the detractors are basically saying, nothing inside abyssea counts, nothing inside VWNM with temps counts, nothing outside VWM but not inside abyssea counts. Thus ... there is absolutely no monster in FFXI that would "count". They would only accept damage done without buffs, without debuffs, without temps, without food ... heck can I wear my gear or does it need to be done naked? You see where this logic leads, they'll keep removing things and changing the situation until they get the desired answer. Every MNK, WAR, DRG, SAM, THF, WHM, PLD, BLU, ect.. gets the exact same temps inside VWNM. We all get the exact same food and atmacite. If anything RDM is left out due to a severe lack of super WS gear.

[Neisan_Quetz]

You can stop pretending to be a special snowflake right about... now.

[Greatguardian]

You can stop pretending to be a special snowflake right about... now.

Off topic, but you should change your name to Heisan_Quetz so that Saevel can abbreviate it as HQ. Whitebox or bust, bro.

[ManaKing]

You can stop pretending to be a special snowflake right about... now.

Wow that post served a purpose, nice way to start a fight I guess, instead of talking about what you favorite subjob for RDM is... you know, the topic of the post.

[Greatguardian]

Wow that post served a purpose, nice way to start a fight I guess, instead of talking about what you favorite subjob for RDM is... you know, the topic of the post.

Save the chastisement, it's fairly obvious where this mess started.

[Neisan_Quetz]

It actually took me a few minutes to figure out what they meant by NQ. I wasn't aware I had Normal Quality talking. Next time I'll respond in the vernacular.

On Topic before OP complains: /blu was kinda fun for laughing off certain NMs and still keeping Sang blade too though. I've heard of it being used for healing breeze at birds but never saw it as a necessity after finishing Vert merits and getting relic head.

[ManaKing]

Save the chastisement, it's fairly obvious where this mess started.

No actually it's not. If you need to point fingers all the time and just beat on each other all the time, then it really becomes quite muddled. I mean if you are just going to insult each other at least keep it on topic. Every topic doesn't have to go 1 or 2 pages before it erupts into some kind of bitter struggle against your fellow RDM.

Hint, while you are fighting each other, nothing constructive is being done and no one cares about how bad RDM is because apparently we are a bunch of negative, abrasive trouble makers that can't even have a conversation with each other. Why should anyone help us when we can't even agree to help each other?

[ManaKing]

It actually took me a few minutes to figure out what they meant by NQ. I wasn't aware I had Normal Quality talking. Next time I'll respond in the vernacular.

On Topic before OP complains: /blu was kinda fun for laughing off certain NMs and still keeping Sang blade too though. I've heard of it being used for healing breeze at birds but never saw it as a necessity after finishing Vert merits and getting relic head.

Thank you. I appreciate that.

[ManaKing]

1 Thing at a time?

nonono, Good people can multi-task.

Oh shit, you can cast cures and nukes at the same time? My god I must have missed when they put double cast in the game. OH WAIT THEY DIDN'T. You can't do 2 things at the same time on any job. Multi-tasking is the result of doing 2 different things over a period of time, not at the same time.

If you are just trying to insult me for a laugh or you are bored, I don't care. I'm only pointing out that doing the same types of things as other jobs at reduced potency at the same rate as them is why RDM is essentially outdated and unequal to other jobs from a balance standpoint. That is one of RDMs problems. That is something that has to be accounted for when they are looking at re balancing RDM, if they have any interest in doing so.

[cidbahamut]

No actually it's not. If you need to point fingers all the time and just beat on each other all the time, then it really becomes quite muddled. I mean if you are just going to insult each other at least keep it on topic. Every topic doesn't have to go 1 or 2 pages before it erupts into some kind of bitter struggle against your fellow RDM.

Hint, while you are fighting each other, nothing constructive is being done and no one cares about how bad RDM is because apparently we are a bunch of negative, abrasive trouble makers that can't even have a conversation with each other. Why should anyone help us when we can't even agree to help each other?
Welcome to every Red Mage forum ever.

[Greatguardian]

Welcome to every Red Mage forum ever.

I was going to say something about this, then I realized that BG didn't have job-specific forums so this statement is 100% correct.

Which forums have Red Mage subforums? XIAH, Alla, and the OF. Yup, sounds about right.

Really, the issue isn't so petty as you make it sound, Mana. Red Mage is in a pretty shitty position right now, and it needs some tuning up. The problem is, some people want to tune up the absolute weakest facet of Red Mage because it fits their lore/mentality/playstyle and not because it would be most beneficial to the job in relation to the other 19 in the game.

Red Mage shined for years because of its magic. Right now, even with all the crap it gets, the real reason Red Mage has fallen behind is really more that they haven't received anything new in the past 20 levels while other jobs have been revamped to hell. If Red Mage's magic side were to receive a buff equivalent to the kind of upgrades Black Mage, White Mage, and Scholar got, it would be pretty damn well off.

If, instead, we got some sort of Melee buff, what then? Will people suddenly value Red Mage as a damage dealer? I don't think a lot of people here realize that people really will not suddenly applaud Red Mage Melee even if it gets a buff. Even if Red Mage's melee was brought in line with its Magical prowess, the position of the job in the overall scheme of things Would Not Change. No one needs magical swordsmen. It's a fun RPG archetype, and I almost always play one in The Elder Scrolls (believe it or not), but it's positively useless in the realm of an MMO like FFXI.

Look at Summoner. Look at Beastmaster. Look at pre-buff Scholar and pre-buff Puppetmaster. Good lord, look at Blue Mage. Look at Dark Knight.

Buffing the weakest aspect of jobs in order to make them more well-rounded is not viable. It will not change the desirability, and thus the usability, of the job at all. What happens when SE gives DRKs Occult Acumen? What happens when SE gives DRKs MAB on their Relic Armor, huh? That armor becomes Trash. What Dark Knight needs is a solid Melee buff, just like what Red Mage needs is a solid Magic buff. Appealing to the weakest link in hybrids is just a recipe for disaster.

[Crimson_Slasher]

Id rather be a substitute, well rounded hybrid than an incredibly restricted specialist when i play rdm, i signed up to be a hybrid.

While that statement is nice and all, look at it this way, most jobs have more than one function, they have a core function, but also a second, powerful function. And like people say, nobody is gonna invite a dedicated enfeebler, we lack enhancing, we lack cure power, and we are insufficient as nukers and meleers. For me, id rather use those plentiful, single target extended duration buffs, the swords/daggers we are so infatuated with, and the gear that we love to collect to chip away at a mob. Id rather let my mp tick endlessly to full, slinging a few enfeebs while i poke, prod, jab, slap, and strike a mob, and let that excess mp that im carrying go towards a few emergency uses, like helpful cures, and hastes when the whm cant manage with all the curing. I know i can likely hit as hard/harder with nukes, but if i dump my mp gauge, then it takes me that much longer to pop convert for an emergency cure.

But i like to be a mode switcher. I love a lot of "outdated" concepts. And again, just like anyone else, part of rdm is nostalgia and the flexibility it has in roles. Too many people say "you want to do x on rdm? go level another job!" but i find that funny, because just about in every way we are matched and outclassed. Enhancing is best left to whm/brd/cor/smn, Enfeebs can be done by brd/nin/blu, melee by most jobs, heals by whm, and soon sch, and even smn can do well if they utilize carbuncle's ward pacts. Nukes have been covered by blm/sch, and almost matched by blu, and even smn can sling magical damage. Tanking isnt even on the radar for the most part, so where does that leave us? Just like you said, enhancing our weakest trait will "NEVER" make us wanted, but unless enfeebles are the ONLY way to kill a mob, neither will those, and as long as someone can enhance better than us, neither will that. Those are what you consider our "Strongest" traits.

So what would you improve? They wont improve our cures/heals, they are unlikely to improve our nuking, they seem incapable of improving our enfeebling, and our enhancing/melee get passable updates at best. I personally see the biggest option being melee because, even if we become good, there will always be other jobs who can always do the job too, and that competition itself is a form of game balance, and will prevent us from being "overpowered" simply because other jobs can do it too.

I spoke my subjob peace already, page 1 or 2. But it just dumbfounds me how greatguardian wants our strengths to be improved, but shy of a total reshaping of the job (and if thats the case, why dont you play a job suited to that very task?) they will never be worth use in most events unless it is the only option period.

[Greatguardian]

What makes you think Enfeebles are not worth a party slot on their own merit? Plenty of jobs (nay, almost all of the most powerful/desired ones) gain a party slot because they excel in a single role. Specialization is always more powerful than Hybridization in a Team-based MMO. Two Red Mages will never be able to kill as fast as a Warrior and a Bard duo.

I don't particularly care what you signed up for, because that doesn't affect me. I don't particularly care what you enjoy, because you're always free to do whatever the hell you want and it won't affect me one bit. All I care about are the adjustments that are going to need to be made to the job as a whole, and I'll tell you right now that adjusting Melee won't do jack shit for Red Mage. Red Mage will be in the exact same place it is now: a funsies job where people who throw massive bitchfits or cry all the time about coming on it will be able to because no one wants to deal with their shit, and no one else because it's not worth wasting a party slot in a well-constructed group.

Re-instate the gap between WHM/SCH/BLM enfeebles and RDM enfeebles, make shit actually land, and update our spell library to level 99 and bam, suddenly leaders will start actually asking people to come on Red Mage again. I'd know, I am one.

[Crimson_Slasher]

Seriously? Yeah enfeebles are great, in theory, but not all events are focalized around one single central nm that MUST be enfeebled. And the tedious nature of applying enfeebles to every mob, when in many situations the mob will die seconds after with or without them, is not a situation where enfeebling is required. Not every event is voidwatch, most events are not big bad boss-challenge-timeattack styled content, in fact, voidwatch and some of WOE seems to be of the few exceptions to this rule.

Anyone can call themselves a leader, but a leader doesnt just decide what people do and go and tell them to deal with it, a real leader uses the people they have and encourages them to be their best. Sure they can fix enfeebles, but you are clearly dilusional to think just making them land, and making a few petty spells with solve the problem alone. And how far can you improve them before people start pissing and moaning about it. We need just the right amount or it broken to such a level that theres no shadow of doubt its needed and for the devs to openly state "theyre ment to be brokenly powerful, deal with it."

[Neisan_Quetz]

And? Such events typically do not require large groups in any way shape or form. What matters is making Rdm viable in a party setting, and making enfeebles relevant on harder mobs can go a long way, if done right. Otherwise enjoy soloing.

[Greatguardian]

Lol. Sorry, but I've been leading linkshells in this game longer than most of this forum has been playing at all. You don't need to lecture me on proper leadership and utilization of talent. There is, however, a balance that must be struck between utilizing a player correctly and utilizing their jobs correctly. Thankfully, I've generally been lucky enough to lead a group of people mature enough to understand the necessity of that balance.

There is a difference between commanding Player A to get on Bard and asking Player A to get on Bard if he doesn't mind, because we could really use one tonight. Plenty of people on these boards paint me as an authoritarian bastard, but honestly, you can ask anyone who's been in a linkshell with me and you'll damn near-universally hear the same thing. I'm a nice, laid back guy who excels in group management, logistics, and leadership.

With that in mind, no, I really don't lose anything by asking people to come RDM or not-RDM. There is no loss of morale. In the case that someone really does throw a hissy fit over being asked to come not-RDM, or intentionally falls asleep at the wheel because they can't come what they want all the time, chances are they're not someone myself or anyone else in my shell wants to work with anyways.

Enfeebles are also pretty boss. If you're working with mobs weak enough that they're being spammed and you don't need enfeebles anyways, Red mage's ancillary magical functions are more than sufficient to handle these situations already. Red Mage doesn't lack in non-Abyssean lowman, it lacks in serious party/group play.

[Crimson_Slasher]

The point im getting at is the situations where you would need a dedicated enfeebler are few and far, as like you said, most spammed mobs (Nyzul, assaults, limbus, einherjar, dynamis, select abyssea) Involve mobs downed too quickly to need enfeebling, which while a rdm can handle said mobs with nukes/etc, why not take a better mage, or a DD? And on the hardest nms, in many cases, the enfeebling is either totally resisted, doesnt take full effect and at times cant even be noticed, and once again, outside of dia, another job tends to be more effective. I may not be a big ls leader like you, but thats really neither here nor there, i do my leading in the field with people i do and dont know, to keep it varied, but i AM a number cruncher, and ive found few situations, even when the enfeebles can be landed, that again, outside of dia, actually benefit in finishing time due to enfeebles.

However i would like to see a general boost to everything of rdm, thats partly what gain spells are for, mnd/int for enfeebs and cures/nukes sorta, str/dex for melee, agi/vit for tanking, and chr for...being sexy i suppose? But yes, i dont want to see total stagnation of the job, i wanna see magic improved too, but i think that just enfeebs being fixed arent nearly enough, and frankly, i miss the old days when skillchains were planned. Id love to see situations where every party member is at ground-zero, skillchaining because it has something to contribute, and because of this, and because not every "mage" should have to back-line in every event just to get invites, id like to see more melee love.

Thats my opinion and stance, it isnt wrong, i offered a very broken mage friendly idea a while back but it was something that would truely make rdm overpowered and hence was just an idea, not realistic. Thats what the board is for though, not attacking eachother but the issues, and offering potential fixes. Though that is something a lot of rdms would like to see prolly, a 50% higher mp cost for 50% more potency. a 150mp 1000 damage nuke raised to 225mp 1500 damage, a 88mp 400hp cure 4 moved to 132mp 600 hp cure (before gear potency calculation) but then we would be a veritible super-mage, throwing blm-grade nukes and whm-grade heals.

[ManaKing]

Re-instate the gap between WHM/SCH/BLM enfeebles and RDM enfeebles, make shit actually land, and update our spell library to level 99 and bam, suddenly leaders will start actually asking people to come on Red Mage again. I'd know, I am one.



Enfeebles are also pretty boss. If you're working with mobs weak enough that they're being spammed and you don't need enfeebles anyways, Red mage's ancillary magical functions are more than sufficient to handle these situations already. Red Mage doesn't lack in non-Abyssean lowman, it lacks in serious party/group play.


I agree with GG. No matter what kind of RDM you are, Enfeebles are what we need. Regardless of subjob, we need to be able to do our job (see what i did there, keeping it in line with what we are discussing).

RDMs can significantly reduce the amount of damage that people engaging a mob take by reducing that mobs total damage through debuffs and to a lesser extent buffs. It doesn't matter if you are engaging or sitting back, your job is to keep the people around the mob in good shape. Slow, Blind, Paralyze, Addle, Bio/Dia, Dispel and to a lesser extent silence, bind, gravity, and sleep/break are all good ways to buffer the tanks and DDs from quick or near instant KOs from more powerful mobs. Currently, these spells are completely at the mercy of how cheaply the mobs were constructed.

We are there to help WHMs keep people alive. The WHM can do nothing to keep people alive if the mob is going at full speed and can just run through people faster than they can cure them. A WHM is a poor solution to the instant KO from damage, because there isn't anything they can do when they can't slow down a mobs damage. RDM can't do anything either, but that is because RDM is broken right now. We are supposed to have tools to be able to slow mobs down and take the wind out of their sails, but currently our enfeebles might not work at all.

The point of RDMs is to make it so either themselves or others can outlast what they are engaged with. We are cripplers, we are protectors, and we are support in the broadest implication of the word. If you are willing to learn how to play all of RDM, there will never be a situation where you won't be useful. The problem with that last statement is that currently we are undervalued because we are underpowered. The situation where you won't be useful is the situation where a party fills up and every jobs does what you can do, but better. That is the current state of RDM. Not only was our main focus arbitrarily thrown out of existence by whatever amazing person came up with mobs being straight immune to our magic, but all of our other strengths aren't strong enough to make us desirable. You should not take a RDM to anything right if you can get anything else, unless you know that the RDM can land enfeebles on it.

We need enfeebles back and we need to be better at them than everyone else. Buffs, w/e they are cool, if you want to include them I will never say no. But this bullshit with our only A rank Skill being no better than anyone else's in any qualitative sense that matters to a party needs to go. People give us back our enfeebles. That is the first of many steps that RDM needs to get it back on track.

[saevel]

I agree with GG. No matter what kind of RDM you are, Enfeebles are what we need. Regardless of subjob, we need to be able to do our job (see what i did there, keeping it in line with what we are discussing).

RDMs can significantly reduce the amount of damage that people engaging a mob take by reducing that mobs total damage through debuffs and to a lesser extent buffs. It doesn't matter if you are engaging or sitting back, your job is to keep the people around the mob in good shape. Slow, Blind, Paralyze, Addle, Bio/Dia, Dispel and to a lesser extent silence, bind, gravity, and sleep/break are all good ways to buffer the tanks and DDs from quick or near instant KOs from more powerful mobs. Currently, these spells are completely at the mercy of how cheaply the mobs were constructed.

We are there to help WHMs keep people alive. The WHM can do nothing to keep people alive if the mob is going at full speed and can just run through people faster than they can cure them. A WHM is a poor solution to the instant KO from damage, because there isn't anything they can do when they can't slow down a mobs damage. RDM can't do anything either, but that is because RDM is broken right now. We are supposed to have tools to be able to slow mobs down and take the wind out of their sails, but currently our enfeebles might not work at all.

The point of RDMs is to make it so either themselves or others can outlast what they are engaged with. We are cripplers, we are protectors, and we are support in the broadest implication of the word. If you are willing to learn how to play all of RDM, there will never be a situation where you won't be useful. The problem with that last statement is that currently we are undervalued because we are underpowered. The situation where you won't be useful is the situation where a party fills up and every jobs does what you can do, but better. That is the current state of RDM. Not only was our main focus arbitrarily thrown out of existence by whatever amazing person came up with mobs being straight immune to our magic, but all of our other strengths aren't strong enough to make us desirable. You should not take a RDM to anything right if you can get anything else, unless you know that the RDM can land enfeebles on it.

We need enfeebles back and we need to be better at them than everyone else. Buffs, w/e they are cool, if you want to include them I will never say no. But this bullshit with our only A rank Skill being no better than anyone else's in any qualitative sense that matters to a party needs to go. People give us back our enfeebles. That is the first of many steps that RDM needs to get it back on track.

Unfortunately, sitting back and casting enfeebles just means you get to see them be resisted more. This is SE's fault in their attempt to crush soloist RDM's. People can sling all the mud they want, eventually it boils down to them wanting RDM to just be a WHM. And even if SE "fix's" enfeebles, it's not a full time job, wasn't in 04,05,06,07,08 nor anything after that. You slap them on and ... then sit around ... with your light staff shoved where the sun don't shine waiting for them to wear off to reapply.

Current enfeeble library is,
Useful ones
Dia III: Godly, can't be resisted and effect is direct and scales dramatically
Slow II: mediocre, can be resisted but few NM's have high resistance to it. Scaling is poor due to haste formula.
Para II: potent on anything not resistant, absolutely worthless on anything that is resistant which unfortunately includes most of the boss's you'd want enfeebles on.
Poison II: Damage isn't high enough to matter, can be useful in long solo's with Saboteur
Addle: Won't make any significant difference on NM's but seeing as few are resistant might as well toss in on the stack

Then the crap enfeebles
Blind II: Only useful in low-man situations with a evasion tank vs a weak NM. Vs anything bigger you won't lower it's accuracy to under the accuracy cap.
Silence: everything that you'd want to silence is immune, nothing more to say.
Bind: see Silence
Gravity: see Bind
Break: see Gravity
Sleep: see Break
Bio III: I hold my own special hatred for people who insist on using this. Other then some sort of /SCH long DoT solo it's completely useless. The -attack won't actually change the damage anyone takes due to enemy Ratio being floored at 1. And what's worse, it blocks / overwrites our best debuff Dia III, so not only does it do nothing, but its worse then nothing as it's blocking an extremely useful effect. The sole reason to have 1 merit in this is for the ridiculous VWNM procs, that's it. I'll say it one last time, using Bio III will NOT reduce the damage your tanks are taking. At most it could slightly reduce the CS MNK or zerked WAR due to their defense being so low to begin with.

So out of our "master of enfeebling" we have five useful enfeebles, out of those five three are consistent and out of those three only one is great. It doesn't take a large amount of effort to keep the applicable enfeebles in place. That's the whole reason I started building a melee set to begin with. If I'm going to be standing around with my light staff shoved up my --- I might as well contribute some form of damage. And from there it grew.

And before the annoying people try to say how *great* slow II is, let me demonstrate. Slow and Haste the same thing, one is merely the negative of the other. Thus while we state 30% haste as 100/(100-30), 30% slow then must be stated as 100/(100+30). Wanna see what happens as you scale slow up?

100/115 = 0.8695 (86.95% attack speed)
100/130 = 0.7692 (76.92% attack speed)
100/150 = 0.6666 (66.66% attack speed)

And finally the ZOMG awesomeness of 100% slow
100/200 = 0.5000 (50% attack speed).

Slow gets exponentially worse as you stack more of it, its the inverse of the exponential effect of haste and defense down. This is why I stopped using saboteur on Slow II, I realized that it was better used on other enfeebles if possible. Along with the fact that regular hits were not even scratching our tanks, it was the monsters TP moves that are the most damaging, and we can't do squat about that. Not even the age old "TP FEEd!!1010101011 oHH NOES010101" argument works as most NM's can now use TP moves without needing TP, thanks SE.

So let the bashing, hating and name calling continue.

[cidbahamut]

And even if SE "fix's" enfeebles, it's not a full time job, wasn't in 04,05,06,07,08 nor anything after that. You slap them on and ... then sit around ... with your light staff shoved where the sun don't shine waiting for them to wear off to reapply.

Only if you don't know how to spend excess MP.

[Greatguardian]

Only if you don't know how to spend excess MP.

This is essentially what it comes down to.

This whole "Pink mages only cast Haste and then afk" strawman is getting old. Good Red Mages were always riding their Convert timers and MP bars to the limit with their spells. I'm sorry that most Red Mages were, well, bad, but that's the case with most jobs really. Giving bad Red Mages swords isn't going to fix that fact, either.

Red Mage, even as a pure mage, plays significantly differently than White Mage. Conflating the two is insulting, but that's par for the course with Saevel so whatever.

[ManaKing]

I asked what people sub on RDM because I've come to the conclusion that a RDMs sub is generally more useful than the main job of RDM itself. A RDMs sub can change how effective a RDM is in specific fight from being legitimately useful to not really good for anything besides Cure IV and maybe Tier IV nukes if you can spare the MP.

The reason why this is the case is because our main job is broken. We can't be counted on to enfeeble properly or significantly. We aren't in a position to do our main job first and then work on our secondary roles in the group like we should be able to. All we have is hodgepodge of secondary roles with no job specialization to do them well or even competently. That is part of the reason we are getting all pissy about my staff is better than your sword and vice versa, because at the end of the day, both your staves and swords both suck compared having a main job. What you should be able to do is enfeeble properly, effectively, and with the highest proficiency in the game. You are given your other strengths so that you have secondary roles that fit the situations that you are in. Not to make them the main focus of your job.

If you fix enfeebles to do what they were intended to do, then we can go back to fighting with each other over why their main hand is stupid, but we will be able to do it while actually doing something for the rest of the party. SE has expressed the interest in Enfeebling being the focus of RDM, and I am happy about it. But when and how is still the issue for me.

If they don't make Enfeebling worthwhile again, then they need to push our nuking, healing, and melee up to compensate for getting a lemon of a main job. We would need a lot of work making RDM into an effective hybrid if their intention is to leave Enfeebling in the state that it is in. We can't be bad at a lot of different things and expect to be wanted by the general populous, it's just not realistic. We have to be decent at everything and have JT and JA abilities that reinforce the hybrid nature of our job. JAs like Sacrosanctity and Immanence and Job traits like Fencer and Occult Acumen need to be coming our way. If that is taking away from the identity of other jobs, THEN FIX OUR MAIN JOB SO WE HAVE SOME JOB IDENTITY.

[ManaKing]

This is essentially what it comes down to.

This whole "Pink mages only cast Haste and then afk" strawman is getting old. Good Red Mages were always riding their Convert timers and MP bars to the limit with their spells. I'm sorry that most Red Mages were, well, bad, but that's the case with most jobs really. Giving bad Red Mages swords isn't going to fix that fact, either.

Red Mage, even as a pure mage, plays significantly differently than White Mage. Conflating the two is insulting, but that's par for the course with Saevel so whatever.

No that is the point, RDM and WHM aren't supposed to be the same. WHM has a full job kit and RDM has a half baked kit that is outdated and under powered. In my opinion WHM and RDM should be able to be in the same party because they don't have the same role. WHM is the healer and defensive buffer. RDM is the offensive debuffer and is an off-healer if needed. WHM keeps them up and protected, RDM undermines the offensive power of the mob and helps keep the party in control of the situation by filling roles that need to be reinforced.

If you WHM has healing on lock down, you should find something that you can do to lessen the threat of the mob. That can be by contributing direct damage to shorten the length of the engagement with the enemy. It can also be to further undermine the threat the mob presents by stunning for you group so that you can nullify spells and TP moves.

You should always have a WHM as a healer for anything significant, it has the tools to do its job. RDM does not have the tools to be a main healer. There is no reason for RDM to be stepping on WHMs toes, but there is no reason that a RDM has to be severely limited by what other jobs can do to determine what it can't.

[saevel]

No that is the point, RDM and WHM aren't supposed to be the same. WHM has a full job kit and RDM has a half baked kit that is outdated and under powered. In my opinion WHM and RDM should be able to be in the same party because they don't have the same role. WHM is the healer and defensive buffer. RDM is the offensive debuffer and is an off-healer if needed. WHM keeps them up and protected, RDM undermines the offensive power of the mob and helps keep the party in control of the situation by filling roles that need to be reinforced.

If you WHM has healing on lock down, you should find something that you can do to lessen the threat of the mob. That can be by contributing direct damage to shorten the length of the engagement with the enemy. It can also be to further undermine the threat the mob presents by stunning for you group so that you can nullify spells and TP moves.

You should always have a WHM as a healer for anything significant, it has the tools to do its job. RDM does not have the tools to be a main healer. There is no reason for RDM to be stepping on WHMs toes, but there is no reason that a RDM has to be severely limited by what other jobs can do to determine what it can't.

Notice how he falls back to the old "I disagree with you so therefor you must suck" argument. Talks about riding convert timer ..... upon which I reply .. doing what exactly? Invariably the answer is "supporting the party", upon which I ask again, doing what exactly. And it goes round and round until it comes out, "supporting the party" is just casting Cure IV over and over again, coupled with the occasional erase / paralyna / silena. With the new duration bonus haste / refresh cycles aren't even an issue anymore. Enfeebled are cheap for their duration and quantity. This leaves two things that can possibly drain MP, Cure IV and nukes.

So once fully dissected he's argument (and pretty much every anti-melee player) is that he's doing damage via nukes vs my doing damage via sword. We both cure the same, hence my reference to the ubiquitous <stal> macro, swinging swords does not prevent me from casting cures when need be. Cure IV is no substitute for Cure V, I won't be main healing, but I will be support curing the best I can. And I can guarantee me sword will deal more damage this his nukes over the course of a fight. There is a reason XP burns forced BLMs to go solo their XP.

Ultimately the argument boils down to them wanting to make RDM into WHM. If your going to be leveraging you role on spamming cures, then you should be on WHM. If you want to throw nuking into the mix then come on SCH, they have VASTLY superior capabilities in that regard. If you only want to melee with swords then come on WAR / SAM / DRG / ect.., their VASTLY superior at it then a RDM will be. If you want to heal, nuke AND swing swords, then com RDM it's what the job was designed for. Enfeebles were tacked on after the job was made, they were never particularly powerful and SE has since nerfed them into oblivion.

My argument still stands, RDM isn't a single category or function and to attempt to define it as such will always lead to failure. It does lots of things, and while none are the best they are more then functional. Due to this multi-role discipline it takes a lot of concentration and effort to play, sticking to one small set of abilities over and over again is doing the job a disservice. A good RDM can slip into and out of the front lines easily, they know when to hit the NM and when to disengage, when to nuke, when to cure and which spells are the most effective on which NMs. We have a plethora of tricks we can deploy depending on the kind of fight it is and our sub choice.

[cidbahamut]

So once fully dissected he's argument (and pretty much every anti-melee player) is that he's doing damage via nukes vs my doing damage via sword. We both cure the same, hence my reference to the ubiquitous <stal> macro, swinging swords does not prevent me from casting cures when need be. Cure IV is no substitute for Cure V, I won't be main healing, but I will be support curing the best I can.

Missing 23% Cure Potency is not 'curing the same'. Bullshit less please.

[ManaKing]

Missing 23% Cure Potency is not 'curing the same'. Bullshit less please.

Only if you are actually missing it. You can get 25% with Galenus and Tefnut Wand. You also get 25 MP, 10 MND, and 5 Healing Magic skill. Your staff only give Cure Potency, and less than the combination of the 2. I mean if we are getting technical, your staff is outdated and inferior. I don't care if you want to use it, that is your choice. But you really shouldn't be trying to tell someone that a staff is the superior curing tool, when it isn't.

@ Savael

Enfeebling was great when this game came out. You could significantly lower the damage a mob could do to you. There was nothing tacked on about it. If you chose not to use it, you were shooting yourself in the foot.

[Greatguardian]

Only if you are actually missing it. You can get 25% with Galenus and Tefnut Wand. You also get 25 MP, 10 MND, and 5 Healing Magic skill. Your staff only give Cure Potency, and less than the combination of the 2. I mean if we are getting technical, your staff is outdated and inferior. I don't care if you want to use it, that is your choice. But you really shouldn't be trying to tell someone that a staff is the superior curing tool, when it isn't.

You're melee'ing with a Galenus and a Tefnut wand, then? I think that's the primary concern. It's not staff v clubs, it's Melee (and thus locked main/sub) versus Casting (gaining access to the Main/Sub slots)

[cidbahamut]

Only if you are actually missing it. You can get 25% with Galenus and Tefnut Wand. You also get 25 MP, 10 MND, and 5 Healing Magic skill. Your staff only give Cure Potency, and less than the combination of the 2. I mean if we are getting technical, your staff is outdated and inferior. I don't care if you want to use it, that is your choice. But you really shouldn't be trying to tell someone that a staff is the superior curing tool, when it isn't.

That would require weapon slots to not be locked, which saevel is most likely doing so he can get all those awesome screenshots of him doing CDC. Can't reach 100 TP if you're switching in a cure potency wand every time you throw a cure.

[ManaKing]

You're melee'ing with a Galenus and a Tefnut wand, then? I think that's the primary concern. It's not staff v clubs, it's Melee (and thus locked main/sub) versus Casting (gaining access to the Main/Sub slots)

If you wanted to you could, which is more than you can say for a staff. Put staff skill on RDM and I would instantly pick one up. Without it, no dice.

If you are RDM/NIN you have the option to melee with your chosen main hand/offhand and switch if needed to a Cure Potency Main/Sub if you think the situation merits it. With Staves and /Mage you don't have that option. If it is an option you don't want then you won't miss it. But in the case of people that enjoy melee-ing with a RDM, they have the same resources or slightly better for curing. Show me a cure potency grip and then you can say Staffs heal better.


That would require weapon slots to not be locked, which saevel is most likely doing so he can get all those awesome screenshots of him doing CDC. Can't reach 100 TP if you're switching in a cure potency wand every time you throw a cure.

Savael or anyone for that matter can make decisions on the fly about where his best interests are. If the first 75% of an NM is a cake walk and the last 25% is serious BSN, then what is the point of NOT meleeing for the first 70~% and then walking back when you know the shit is going to hit the fan and switch weapons for cure potency?

Everyone needs to know when to walk away from a dangerous situation, being a RDM doesn't make it any different. If Savael is sticking it to NMs that can AOE 1 or 2 Shot him, then he is doing it wrong. But if he can contribute DPS and end a fight sooner while not adding extra burden to the healer, then there is no reason that he can't be there.

There are plenty of bad players in every job. Just because most RDMs that try to melee do it horribly wrong, doesn't mean that everyone will do it horribly wrong. If RDM is going to get gimped based of the absolute max of what the job can cheap out of itself, then you shouldn't be limiting people who are trying their best to get the absolute max out of their job.

[Mirage]

I wonder how strong hexa strikes I could pull off on things like Ildebrann.

[Greatguardian]

You're still weighing out opportunity cost. If you're not going to be melee'ing the whole time, then you lose out on a ton of magic-specific buffs when you're in the backline by being on Ninja sub. Even then, if someone were to only run in and do 3 CDCs in a fight for 2k each, I could easily outdamage them overall by just staying in the backline on RDM/SCH and tossing out nukes while supporting the party.

People like to throw out Rdm's nuking potential pretty quickly, and you're most definitely not hitting that potential on /Nin with swords equipped. Likewise, if you are using swords, ditching your TP even only decently often is a huge hit to your damage. Just ask any Thief that gets conned into swapping in Thief's Knife and they'll tell you the same thing.

I've never advocated against melee on weak targets. In fact, it's significantly more efficient than nuking on weak enemies, and always will be. But if you're in a situation that warrants backing out or switching weapons, you will contribute far more damage by just being on the backlines and fully utilizing your magic.

Inb4: "Saevel>> You don't have any magic. Just Dia 3 and Cures. How pedantic."

[ManaKing]

You're still weighing out opportunity cost. If you're not going to be melee'ing the whole time, then you lose out on a ton of magic-specific buffs when you're in the backline by being on Ninja sub. Even then, if someone were to only run in and do 3 CDCs in a fight for 2k each, I could easily outdamage them overall by just staying in the backline on RDM/SCH and tossing out nukes while supporting the party.

People like to throw out Rdm's nuking potential pretty quickly, and you're most definitely not hitting that potential on /Nin with swords equipped. Likewise, if you are using swords, ditching your TP even only decently often is a huge hit to your damage. Just ask any Thief that gets conned into swapping in Thief's Knife and they'll tell you the same thing.

I've never advocated against melee on weak targets. In fact, it's significantly more efficient than nuking on weak enemies, and always will be. But if you're in a situation that warrants backing out or switching weapons, you will contribute far more damage by just being on the backlines and fully utilizing your magic.

Inb4: "Saevel>> You don't have any magic. Just Dia 3 and Cures. How pedantic."

As soon as I retreat back to the back line, I switch out my swords. I have 2 Magian MAB swords at +3 and a Dark sword that I'm in the middle of. I know most people that play RDM don't have 6+ Magian Swords at +2 or +3, but I do. I love that damn things and it is what I do when I get bored of group play. I would have liked to be on the daggers, but I guess they really didn't want us using daggers after all unless we acquire really good ones.

When you retreat, you should continue to add direct damage in the form of nukes if you don't have anything better to do with your MP, aka curing. But if you don't have a decent MAB set that you macro, then yeah you are going to look like a bad RDM. A good Nuking set can make your Tier IVs do the equivalent of TP moves. But the thing is, melee is still better DPS than nukes. So if you spend half the fight up front conserving your MP by meleeing, when you step back or start to nuke, you will have more MP to play with.

Also, when you are at the point where TP moves gets worse because mobs generally get better TP moves below 50% or 25%, then you really do need to re-evaluate where you should be in a fight. I nuke every fight. I don't melee every fight. RDM is still a mage, if anyone missed that, then they completely missed the point IMHO. Nukes are great if you have a good MAB set, but until then your are going to feel like they are trash. Melee is good if you have a good Haste/WS set and you get access to decent WSs. Between the two, MAB is generally easier to work on to get to a good place where as melee is unpleasant and most of the best items you can get are difficult to acquire. I don't think you are playing RDM is you aren't using both sides because SCH and BLM are both much stronger for Magical Damage and utility. Until Enfeebling gets put back to where it is supposed to be I don't think a RDM can contribute enough from just nuking to outweigh the benefits of coming as any other mage.

[saevel]

Notice how he hasn't actually listed what he would be casting or doing with all that MP and time. Casting debuffs before they wear has no effect. So really ... it's ... Cure and ... Cure and ... Nuke. Hence the very same people who scream against "lolmeleeRDM" are the ones demanding and threatening to slash their wrists if SE doesn't give them Cure V.

Enfeebles have ALWAYS been a joke. Do not kid yourselves or try to see the past with rose tinted glass's. Since 2003 RDM has been used as a mini healer. SE patched it to add "enfeebles" to the job due to JP player dissatisfaction. I've already listed the "enfeebles" available to the job and all but one are either useless or mediocre. The few ones that are actually useful are defensive enfeebles in a game where offense rules, killing it faster results in less total damage taken then killing it slower. I've shown how Slow suffers from exponentially worse returns, how Blind II won't lower their rate to below the monster acc cap (80%). Para II is actually really good, but only on weak NM's that we would destroy anyway. On anything hard its just resisted or the target has direct potency reduction. Silence / Bind / Gravity / Sleep / Break are all useless now on NMs. Poison II is less damage then a single nuke. Addle is good in theory, but the scaling is so poor that it won't make a difference on NMs. The reason Dia is so good is that 1, the defense down effect is unresistable and always takes effect, 2 defense down effects scale exponentially like haste does, and 3 this game favors offensive buffs / debuffs and effects over defense ones. You only need to reduce damage to the point where your healers can maintain your HP, any further reduction (at the trade off of offensive power) only suffers to extend the fight needlessly. This isn't a good / bad RDM BS argument, SE has never made enfeebling a priority nor a functional area of specialization. To think otherwise is just delusional. Now if SE chooses they can fix this, adding several more debuffs similar to Dia in that that directly reduce a stat, scale well and don't get resisted to uselessness. Anything else faces the problem of being weak to the point of futility (Addle) or having the sh!t nerfed out of it to prevent it from being used where it would really help (Bind/Gravity/Break/Silence/Sleep).

It's also funny how the posters assume that a RDM/NIN with swords is somehow afflicted by the hidden status ailment "WoW", where their unable to change our their gear during a fight. Heck SE even created a sword for us specifically for healing without needing to switch weapons. And I'm deeply laughing at the idea of a RDM being forced to use the magian cure staff ... that the job has 0 skill on ... and only Cure IV. Seriously we all know that you just go as WHM, in all likely hood your RDM hasn't seen the light of day since halfway through abyssea. Seriously ... "ignore 33% of your job because you absolutely positively need this 13% cure potency on Cure IV", pretty much proves that you guys just want RDM = WHM-1.

Anyhow, this is all moot. SE stated long ago they wanted RDM on the front lines, they created a JA and spells specifically for that purpose. They then went so far as to create a high damage sword that was a light staff. Talk about an obvious hint. The job belongs on the front lines, not because players think so but because the developers have made it so. They don't want RDM to be exclusively on the front lines, the job is designed to be in either place depending on the situation and strategy being used.

Ohh and let me correct something right now, out of all the jobs in this game, RDM is the 2nd hardest to kill (first being PLD). Between our native MDB, buffs and gear, we'll survive when most other DD's would of been killed. This is undeniable as so many youtube video's clearly demonstrate. Thus any situation where a RDM would be forced to the sideline due to aoe's, every other melee would also be forced to those same sidelines. The difference is we have the option to switch into mage gear and contribute vs sitting there with out GAXE shoved where the sun don't shine.

Nuking depends on the monster, CDC spam will beat nuking no contest unless the target is physically resistant yet magically weak. Some fights you just don't want to be within melee range due to the nature of the fight, in that case nuking is a great alternative. Currently there is only one area where a RDM would be forced to the sidelines, and that's some of the high tier VWNMs. Then your really just helping the BLM's hit as many magic procs as possible and possibly running in to melee during the blitz for bonus light values. I melee on the eyeball, I go full support on the grasshopper. I melee full tilt during burns (that picture I posted earlier), I stand back and try to proc lights and move in to melee during the blitz when we're actually farming something for drops. This is what I mean by a RDM doing all three functions of their job (WHM/BLM/WAR). You must pick and chose which ones to use where and when. There is no concrete rule, no easy one sentence quip. No amount of guides can replace the sheer amount of experienced required to play the job well, spamming Cure IV and haste does not make a good RDM. Knowing when to employ which skills and being able to anticipate the AI and monsters weakness's / strengths and how to exploit and counter those, that is what makes a good RDM. A bad RDM will sit back and play only one facet of their job (WHM or BLM or WAR), a good RDM will be able to shift between all three as their judgement dictates.

But please, continue the hating, generalizing, straw man and false dichotomy arguments.

[Greatguardian]

Is there something wrong with curing?

Between Hastes, Cures, Refreshes, Dia 3, Addle/Para2/Slow2 where applicable, Nukes, Phalanx 2 (if applicable), Accession buffs, and proc'ing, there's plenty to do.

You're right, though. My Red Mage hasn't seen the light of day since Scars of Abyssea, and I'm not ecstatic about it. But you know what would change about that if they upgraded Red Mage's melee prowess? Absolutely nothing. Not because I refuse to melee, or am somehow incapable of melee'ing on Red Mage. I have access to better gear than the vast majority of posters here, but that doesn't make the job remotely desirable.

Hell, if it came down to it, it's not like I'm not allowed to bring it either. I lead my linkshell. I can bring whatever the hell I want. However, I'd be setting a gross example for my members if I wasted a party slot on a job with absolutely minimal functional value just because I felt like it while asking them to come on useful jobs. My members all know that I'd never ask them to do something that I wouldn't do myself, and I'm always the first one to change jobs if I'd suit the group better on something else.

[ManaKing]

See funny thing is I can agree with both of you. If you are going to something high tier like the harder VWs, then you probably shouldn't bring a RDM unless you have a very specific role you want for them to play that wouldn't be eclipsed by WHM or BLM/WHM.

On the other hand Savael and I have the same mentality on how to play RDM, though we partially disagree on enfeebles. His synopsis on the overall effectiveness of Enfeebles is pretty close to spot on. I have been debuffed mobs since I started on PC release and it has always made some difference, but that doesn't mean that it makes enough of a difference 10 years later. I do want them to think very carefully on what they can do to make that portion of RDM acceptable again, but if that is all they change then we will still be 2nd class.

RDM is the 2nd toughest job in the game when you actually take hits. Evasion is not our strong point. It never will be, but if you are engaging enemies where you will be hit regardless of evasion, the only job I would rather be on is PLD. And as far as taking magic damage, RDM is probably the strongest, if not one of the strongest. I usually run around in 50% PDT. You can do more damage with other setups, but that isn't always the point and I like being alive.

[ManaKing]

As far as a specialized roll that RDM can bring to a party, RDM/DRK.

Everyone will doubt the credibility of what I say next, but I honestly don't care. I know it works, I don't care if you believe me. When you combine Addle with Stun and Absorb TP, you can make a significant difference in the amount of damage your front line takes. Absorb-TP lands on almost anything that you have the Dark Magic Skill and M.Acc to hit. Disclaimer: you have to have good gear for this to work. Addle makes it so you don't have to be watching the mob like a hawk to make sure you can stun GAs and other high tier magics. By the end of most fights that I won't engage in melee on, I have generated well over 300% TP and stopped most of their unpleasant magic. Even if the NM can TP without TP, they still won't be hitting for as hard with less TP.

You can throw the other absorb spells if you want to drop the NMs stats by 20 per spell. Outside of aby, it is a good way to boost potency on Enfeebles. Absorb Spells increase the difference between your stats and the mobs by 40, +20 for you and -20 for them. You can buff your nuking by taking their INT and CHR. It's also a decent way for you to make up some of the WS damage you lose by giving up dual wield. In the case of Elemental WSs, like Sanguine Blade, you actually do more WS damage by /DRK than by any other sub job combination outside of aby.

Do I think that other people will play the way I do? NO. I honestly don't. But /DRK is my favorite sub for RDM because it follows RDMs ability to make themselves stronger while making mobs weaker. RDMs capped recast benefits Dark Magic's lengthy recast times. You get actual spells, job traits, and job abilities that you can use. Last Resort, Attack Bonus, EX Weapon Skills, Stun, Absorbs, Occult Acumen (10% TP for casting Thunder IV with an Oneiros Belt and some Store TP) and Souleater to a lesser extent. It's a subjob that actually benefits you and brings something to RDM that it usually doesn't offer.

Does RDM/DRK out-damage RDM/NIN? Nope. Does it offer utility while still being playable? Yup.

[cidbahamut]

There is so much wrong on this page, I don't even know where to start.

[Ketaru]

I'm just going to ignore the rest of what you guys are talking about and just mention that /SCH is my favorite subjob. If only the people developing this game weren't all lazy about adjusting spells that SCH main can't use (the only buffs that can be Accession'd are ones that /SCH can sub...hmmm) like Temper and Gains.

And yes, I seriously suspect laziness is behind it. Maybe they need to adjust something about the coding of these spells, I don't know. But it's laziness.

[ManaKing]

There is so much wrong on this page, I don't even know where to start.

Oh Cid, it's like I already disclaimed that people wouldn't try /DRK and you still think that I'm worried that you think it's wrong. If you don't want to try it, don't. It's not technically better than /NIN anyways, just different. And just like every other RDM combination, it still isn't the equivalent in strength to any other job in the game.

[saevel]

Manaking,

I actually agree that RDM/DRK is awesome. Most people probably won't remember but I once had a whole spiel on it. We make the best stunners due to the sheer amount of FC and haste we can get. Abs-TP allows you to build TP while your on the sidelines focusing on stunning, and when the times right you can LR SE CDC (or Vorpal) to your hearts content. For a very long time it was my staple sub, until the recent round of VWNMs. SE has caught onto our game of stun cycling the most annoying / cheap TP moves and they've since adjusted. Eyeball tends to put magic shield up before it starts breakga / death spam. Kaggan has a VERY annoying aspect where if his hands are up, your gonna get resisted. Unfortunately the lag between the client and server makes it so even if his hands are down on your computer, on the server he may still have his uber resist up. But on the older city Tier III/IV's /DRK was my staple sub. This goes back to what I was saying, a good RDM knows when to bring which tools and abilities for each fight. You have to analyze the fight the first time through to figure out which moves you can stun, which ones need stunned, which enfeebles land or it's immune / resistant too, and whether you'll be able to melee or not.

I never said enfeebles were completely useless or ineffective, only that they were never very strong to begin with. Long time a certain taru RDM went around making youtube video's showing him exploiting SE's original oversight to kill a NM by himself. Then others started in, then SE said "ohh hells no!" and thus NM's built resist to gravity really fast. Then we learned how to adjust and SE just said "screw it" and all NM's made afterward are immune to grav/bind/break/ect.


If you are going to something high tier like the harder VWs, then you probably shouldn't bring a RDM unless you have a very specific role you want for them to play that wouldn't be eclipsed by WHM or BLM/WHM.

This is what I deeply disagree with. This line of reasoning ultimately leads to "RDM = WHM-1, so bring a WHM instead". Because how you can define "harder"? If someone wanted to, they could use that to define away RDM's melee side. "RDM melee is for solo, anything else is too dangerous" was the old excuse. On VWNM's we're actually quite useful, yes I can hear all the naysayers screaming with blood in their eyes. Procing + damage + buff / debuff + cure support all rolled up into a single package. Granted the RDM has to be good, otherwise they'll just end up focusing too much on one aspect or the other and not multitasking. If the fights not one of the super cheap NM's then you'll contribute more total damage then anyone, especially if there's BLU's in the alliance. If it's a super cheap NM, then chances are everyone who's not a tank is on the sidelines waiting to be called for procs during most of the fight. At the end everyone will just pop temps and fanatics / fools and try to kill it while procing easy HV's, in which case there is zero reason for you not to join in. I've already shown that a RDM can contribute damn good damage, to anger of the detractors. We've already proven that a RDM can survive better then anything short of a PLD (anything dangerous will have a 140% hit rate that's capped at 80, not even THF's can evade them). So taken on its own, the WAR side of RDM is a durable fighter that can contribute moderate to semi-high amounts of damage.

[Ketaru]

I'm rereading the earlier parts of this thread and I think you two just like starting fights about RDM melee. Until...


You demons with you staves. Can't a guy enjoy his swords in peace? JK play however makes you feel happy. RDM isnt being taken seriously yet anyways.

...there wasn't a single mention about melee on RDM. Just talk about what does and doesn't count as an advantage of a subjob. For example:


Ninja
Stealth, Dual Wield III, Subtle Blow III. Tonko, Monomi, Dokumori: Ichi, Jubaku: Ichi, Kurayami: Ni, Hojo: Ichi (and soon Hojo: Ni), Ninja Wheel, Utsusemi.

Stealth doesn't count and everybody knows it.

[Orenwald]

/WAR is my favorite sub job, because I'm a cleaving junkie. I cleave for lulz. It's awesome. Fencer helps with that, so does defender. I mean, I cleave outside abyssea just because I can. It's also a fun sub to just play around with, because I use RDM for having fun. It's great for meleeing thanks to Access to Sanguine Blade, aswell as Fencer for increased healing from SB.

/SCH is probably my least favorite sub. It's very useful, but the fact that I can't cancel Arts when I don't need them (Light Arts Blind II says hi :/) makes it feel cumbersome to me.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Wait... What?

[Ketaru]

Wait... What?

I know what the problem is!



/SCH is probably my least favorite sub. It's very useful, but the fact that I can't cancel Arts when I don't need them (Light Arts Blind II says hi :/) makes it feel cumbersome to me.

[saevel]

Personally, /SCH is awesome, its our best mage SJ. It provides a pretty good set of tools for us to utilize. On the LA / DA thing, you have to learn to anticipate which mode your going to be in and create your macro pallets around the modes themselves. Also don't be worried to cast minor spells in the wrong arts, nothing wrong with casting Dispel / Blind / Poison in LA mode. Nukes and Cures are a bit different due to their large MP costs, but sometimes you need to Cure IV someone and you need to do it RFN. My only issue is that SE is such a d!ck and won't let us Accession Haste, Temper, Gain-spells or Enspell II's.

[ManaKing]

The only reason we can't Accession Enspell 2s is because of how foolishly they were constructed. Their damage is updated by your current Enhancing skill. If you gave another Job your enspell 2s with no enhancing magic skill to go with it, they would hit for significantly less than your enspell 1s.

My suggestion is fix Enspell 2s to calculate start damage on cast and make it so that it can be used with Accession.

My actual suggestion is make Enspell 2s calculate off of start damage and apply damage on every main hand hit. Change the elemental Debuff to the element of the enspell, so that it helps your Enspell damage and makes it plain for everyone else what element you are debuffing.

RDM would need significantly less work, if everything on RDM worked well.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

The only reason we can't Accession Enspell 2s is because of how foolishly they were constructed. Their damage is updated by your current Enhancing skill. If you gave another Job your enspell 2s with no enhancing magic skill to go with it, they would hit for significantly less than your enspell 1s.

My suggestion is fix Enspell 2s to calculate start damage on cast and make it so that it can be used with Accession.

The only reason we can't accession it is because SCH doesn't get it naturally or /subjob

[CapriciousOne]

Swords are like opinions.

Great fun to toy around with by yourself or with a close friend or two.

Horribly inappropriate to whip out in a room full of people, no matter how "good" it is.

Spoken like a true ignoramus

[CapriciousOne]

Plenty of people can justify Staff only, because that is how they want to play. I personally don't touch the things and I never really have. I'd rather build a Macc Dark Sword or keep working on my Murgleis. There is some validity to the potency of staffs for those that want to increase their nuking damage, but it will completely nullify your ability to WS or melee at all.

SE didn't say people couldn't be Pink Mages, they just said that a WHM will blatantly outclass them, because that is their job and they are well equipped to do so. The bigger issue is that RDMs don't have a well defined role because SE made Enfeebling a joke.

My honest opinion on the matter is that any RDM, regardless of play style, should be up in arms about the current state of enfeebling and they should be up in arms together. It doesn't matter what your play style for RDM is currently, you should have figured out by now that you can't make a RDM good anymore because they broke our most important function: Enfeebling.

I don't care if you use a sword or a staff, you aren't as good as any other job in the game because neither of those are going to make up for the fact that we aren't better nukers, healers, or melee'ers than any job that actually specializes in those things. If you hadn't noticed, you can only do 1 think at a time. So after you are done checking how immune the mob is to your enfeebles, you can attempt to validify your existence in a serious party by half ass-ing any one of those 3 things. Since you don't have the job abilities, job traits, equipment, or spell library to compete with other jobs, you are going to come up short.

Stop fighting about your differences and start getting offended that your common ground is barren. There is no actual reason that RDM should be in the state that it is in. It's still a good job and a fun job, but it's not a particularly well equipped to be taken seriously in the current game. Who cares how hard you Nuke or WS? That is secondary stuff. Crippling your adversaries and defending your allies should be your first concern. How you achieve that is up to you.

Well put and mostly agree with one exception. The fact is RDM was NEVER intended to be the best at anything except enfeebles which is as you stated lousy. With that said being taken seriously for anything other than enfeebling is delusional. It is SUPPOSED to be a SUPPORT job nothing more. Hopefully people arent going out and actually thinking they are supposed be able to deal equal or better damage than those of specialists. Sure it is nice to throw out an additional nuke or assist with healing especially after an AoE move in a party but essentially you are there to support not outshine anybody else. I feel it could be taken seriously if it is looked upon as a SUPPORT job but unfortunately it isnt called upon in that light.

I am ticked of about the state of our enfeebling with mobs level 85+ they either dont last long or even stick in the first place and even when it does it seem to rarely proc worth anything. I am awaiting to see what all the final changes will be for this last update but if it is more of the same bs I think I'm done with this game. RDM is my favorite job and DNC is my favorite sub. Occasionally I will sub /DRK mainly for the attack bonus traits and /PLD and the defense bonus traits. I dont usually nuke because the mp/damage ratio kind of sucks to me and I rather save that mp for curing unless the mob has insanely high defenses like a Paladin or Elemental or something. Then again I pretty much only solo on this game unless a mob/mission/quest is really a pain or I'm just tired of it and want it done already.

My least favorite sub I suppose would be /whm because I really hate healing other people because I feel most people should be /dnc, /whm, or /rdm with refresh already if there is no main WHM in the party already. Yeah yeah yeah I know I know no need to repeat the same or crap I know you will type to this opinion as I heard it all before but that is still how I feel nonetheless so save your breath on trying to convince me otherwise.

[CapriciousOne]

I'm sorry I was just listing a vanilla post about all the possibilities rather then what they mean, but I wasn't trying to say how everything was useful. I'm not about to get into a pointless arguement about which is the most useful sub, but to point out some things you missed on two of the jobs - I'm sure I could (but I won't) point out stuff on the other jobs that was missed - if it actually mattered.



Counter and Abyssea. Maybe there are more viable solo choices, but this is a working combo.



Ninjutsu enfeebles are amazingly useful. The resist from low skill only affects damage but even that is mitigated by magic accuracy and magic attack bonus gear.

Not every sub is going to be useful, but considering how many are, it shows how rounded out Red Mage can be.

In addition there are magic evasion and defense down magian weapon trials available as well to assist with landing stuff now as well, I doubt he even bothered to look however. Or he has and will try to counter with "the additional effects are irrelevant because they dont proc enough" or some other bs.

[cidbahamut]

Stop triple posting.

[CapriciousOne]

Stop triple posting.

Stop using linear display mode and switch to Hybrid view then it won't seem like triple posting.

[cidbahamut]

Stop using linear display mode and switch to Hybrid view then it won't seem like triple posting.

You're the only one using a non-standard display option and you're breaching standard forum etiquette. Stop being an ass and triple posting all over the place. It's rude.

[CapriciousOne]

LOL at etiquette and you calling me an ass in the same post. I dont know where you from but it is never good "etiquette" to talk to people like that no matter how they act. I dont mind being the only one to use a non standard display as SE gave us options something many in other countries still dont have. In case you havent noticed already I dont do anything just because "everybody else does" I do what works for me, however.....

This view gives me the advantage of seeing the entire thread and get a clear flow of the conversation, who is talking to who, what posts sparked this line of responses, etc. Linear to me is for horses with blinders on which pretty accurately reflects some of the closed-mindedness I've seen on the forums. I'm more of the whole picture, results oriented type of guy Since I'm not on the forums posting in every possible thread, every possible day I can ,this view gives the best ability to play catch up on the conversation so I will not change it and as a result multipost will probably continue but it is usually only the initial posts to a thread anyway so stop overreacting and whining already. Take some anger management classes or some zoloft or whatever to calm your nerves... something sheesh.

[cidbahamut]

I'm just calling a spade a spade. Double-posting is universally frowned upon in every forum I have ever visited. Why should we have to change to your bizarro display when you're the one making a mess of the forums?

[CapriciousOne]

]I'm just calling a spade a spade.[/B] Double-posting is universally frowned upon in every forum I have ever visited. Why should we have to change to your bizarro display when you're the one making a mess of the forums?


Look I'll say this and I'll leave it and you alone so as to not veer the thread off topic.


Simply put I am not here to cause any trouble whatsoever and that is the god honest truth. I don’t care if you or anybody here believes me because I don’t need your or anybody else approval to validate my ideas or suggestions as good because I know they are good. Nothing I'm doing is that awful or problematic and isn’t hurting or putting anybody down unless I am provoked.


You made it clear that you have a problem with the multi-post. FINE. This problem only occurs to those in linear format mode which yes probably is 99.5 percent of what people use which again is fine by me. I only made a suggestion for you to take or leave to resolve your complaint. If it bothers you to the point you have to get upset and name call like a 5 year old in elementary school, then that was the suggestion to you and all who it bothers.
Hybrid view works for me and that is all that really matters. The option is available to all and I chose to use it and short of them removing it, I will continue to use it. So you only have one or two options, follow my suggestion or learn to keep your emotions in check and find a way to deal with it so it doesn’t bother you anymore. You can’t change people that don’t feel they need to change you can only change how you react to them.

In all to you and all of you like you, GROW UP the world doesn't revolve around you and only you. I'm growing tired of man- woman-child like you acting the way you do and yet I get banned for defending myself because you people can’t control your emotions or thin-skinned wear your heart on your sleeves.


I am here like anybody else to voice my point of view on the issue at hand. You either AGREE or DISAGREE, RESPOND with WHY you agree or disagree, or completely ignore the post altogether it REALLY IS THAT SIMPLE!!! I am in no way trying to convince anybody of anything just let people know that are different ways of doing things since most people seem to only acknowledge one or two ways and may give the false impression that those are the only ways and if they don’t do it that way aren’t adequate or capable when that isn’t the case. There is no need for the childish insults that the mods continuously ignore that causes most of those so called "inflammatory" responses back and eventually get the thread locked as a result.
I was always told by my English teachers that when people have to resort to person insults and attacks it is because they realize that the argument they are making no longer has a leg to stand on and they feel they are losing the argument or threatend. I see that is definitely the case more and more on these forums.


Oh and you not calling a spade a spade at all just trying to justify your ignorant behavior.

So tired of you POBEs (Perpetually Offended By Everything) starting trouble where there isnt any.

[cidbahamut]

Double posting is in poor taste.

You triple posted.

Why are you so surprised about being called out? Get your act together or grow a tougher skin.

[CapriciousOne]

Double posting is in poor taste.

You triple posted.

Why are you so surprised about being called out? Get your act together or grow a tougher skin.

I dont care if it quintuple posted the fact is that right now there is only you and I on the forum posting or have you failed to notice that? When I posted those messages they were at least 15 - 30 mins apart when nobody was else was on to make a post. Even if I made the post one hour apart you still be crying. The fact is if a thread isnt actively posted to double and triple posting is more likely to happen, its basic logic. So what I'm supposed to post one response then wait 24 hours to post again serioiusly? Oh I get it I'm supposed to post one response to one message then wait like a week for somebody to respond back to me when the thread probably hasnt been posted to in like 2 weeks then post again? See how ridciulous you sound? I posted my responses to what I felt was important enough for me to respond back to and if nobody else was on the forum to post a response to something else in that time frame then 9/10 time it will be a multi post. It not like this game has millions of forum users on at one time all the time that double and triple postings don't occur. On top of that you totally exaggerate the issue. Forum etiquette or not I am on no more than maybe 3x a week and everytime I come on there somebody whining about something that is as far as i'm concerned is harmless, that i am supposedly "doing" to them or some other thing.

Simply put I am posting and nobody else was on to post anything else between the time I made those posts and that isnt my fault it just happens there is a lull on the forum sometimes and that is when these things happen the most so get over it.

My question to you is why are you suprised at a double and triple post being made when it is clear nobody is on and havent been on in a while posting to this thread. I made 3 posts more than 20 mins apart big freaking deal. I"m on when nobody in america is but us in the EST zone where I live. Most people are still stuck in traffic on the way to work when I made those posts. I have downtime because I am quick and effective at my job so forgive me if want to make the most of whatever downtime I have before it get busy again and maybe a little active because late at night when most people are just getting off work I have been home for about an hour assuming I am not working late to meet a deadline. Or better yet I am not on these forums when most of you are posting because I'm either in game, playing another game, out for drinks, or sleep already getting ready for work the next morning and dont have time to be on the forum.

I dont care about calling me out because it falling on deaf ears. You calling me out on something I dont feel I'm doing anything wrong is a useless call out anyway. The fact that you feel you need to "call me" out in a online forum speaks volumes about your personality and how much time you spend here and not out living life and just how egocentric you are I mean that is what the mods are for and you not one so bug off.

[Froggis]

Honestly, the "triple" post was not in bad taste as each post addressed different topics, thus it allowed for better organization and keeps the reader from being lost in a wall of text, which is considerate, not rude.

As for the original topic...
For support, once you go /sch, you never go back. But really, /whm is useless now (for what I do with rdm) other than trigs and viruna/stona. I find /blm is useful sometimes, but only offers stun compared with /sch. So for RDM magic action, I prefer /sch. For any form of melee where shadows don't matter, I use /rng because Sidewinder will always out-damage any sword ws I have access to, and really doesn't miss all that much. For anything where self damage mitigation is needed, /nin.

[cidbahamut]

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs27/f/2008/090/6/9/CRY_SOME_MORE_by_Digicaek.png

[Greatguardian]

I wouldn't even care about triple posting if he just quoted the people he was responding to for the other 99.99% of the forums who uses the internet-standard view. It's the very definition of inconsiderate.

[cidbahamut]

Be fair, he actually did quote them today. That's some progress, right?

[Economizer]

Honestly, the "triple" post was not in bad taste as each post addressed different topics, thus it allowed for better organization and keeps the reader from being lost in a wall of text, which is considerate, not rude.

People dismissing the post if it was one post for being a "wall of text" when it would have been clearly organized would have been more rude and in poor taste then it being a triple post.

Actually, if anything was rude about his posts (although I do wish he put it in one post, but meh) it was that he quoted the entire message of people rather then only quoting relevant parts. That bugs me a lot more then double posting because at least with double posting there are occasional reasons for it (not saying there was in this case however).

To be honest, I'm not really that bugged by it, but if someone feels the need to talk about formatting etiquette, there it all is.

[Stylin]

You know what bugs me? All the back seat modding. CapriciousOne's posting style is nobody's business but his own. If it's that much of a problem report it and let a mod sort it out. Don't speak of forum etiquette and how rude someone is being in the same breath that you're berating them over such a trivial matter.

This board needs a PM function.

[Economizer]

The modding team doesn't bug people over formatting.

And if someone's formatting is illegible or they make the page look like ass (not commenting on the person who got called out earlier here), sometimes people should speak up, in a calm, polite manner. I cannot count the number of times where someone politely asking someone to include paragraph breaks and such has saved a post.

Only you can prevent bad post formatting.

[CapriciousOne]

I wouldn't even care about triple posting if he just quoted the people he was responding to for the other 99.99% of the forums who uses the internet-standard view. It's the very definition of inconsiderate.

Yet even in this statement you fail to do just the very thing you complain about but ok.

In any case every forum is different in what their standards are and personally I am past the point of caring what makes anybody but me happy at this point in my life anyway. Some people there is just no pleasing no matter how hard you try so why bother.

For instance if I quote somebody and bold sections or do any time of formatting to their quoted post they cry about that crap. If i only quote the sections of thier original post that i'm responding to some people cry about that by asking "why you delete most of my post?" If I quote the entire post, then include my responses in a new paragraph directly after the section i'm responding to inside of the quoted response that is a problem but I cant do that on SE forums because it say I didnt type anything and won't post.

Personally I just gave up and give the finger to everybody and just do what I do whether anybody like it or not until the mod permanently ban me. Anybody who isnt the mod can just kiss it. I mean short of threats of violence, verbal abuse, racial slurs, etc people really need to get over themselves.

To keep on mark with the thread, I generally dont like any subjob that is mage with my red mage. In my eyes I dont view it as a mage job like WHM/BLM/SCH. True mage jobs in any game you play generally refuse to use bladed weapons of any sort be it a dagger, sword, and you can forget about 2 handed blades like great swords and greataxes etc. In addition most mage jobs in most games arent even able to wear anything but lousy cloth armors that give no real physical protection worth anything.

I suppose if they had given rdm the supposedly "jack of all trades" access to Dual wield say around level 60 or so I might be more willing to do those jobs but rdm get pigeonholed so much to backline play that I just refuse to do that bs at this point in my RDM career. I refuse to be a nurse or waste mp nuking for the crap damage we do compared to a blm or sch. At this point I rather keep my dual wielding and alternative healing with waltzes and sambas that dancer provides then be bothered with whm/sch/blm. I am still undecided on rdm/blu however. Other than /dnc I personally like /pld for the defense bonus traits to reduce damage taken a little further or /drk for the attack bonus to increase damage output a little more but I'm still playing around with alot of subs just to see what I personally like.

[saevel]

Just remember, defense does almost nothing for your damage taken, and if you get enough of it then it does do absolutely nothing. Monsters with a higher level then you have a ratio floor of 1.0, yeah SE cheats. Things like -PDT and -MDT will have a much more significant effect on your survivability then things like defender / cocoon / Defense Bonus traits. Twilight Torque has become my staple TP piece during anything with aoe's and "die now" moves. Also look into Umbra cape and other -PDT pieces, just try not to lower your haste too much in doing so.

[ManaKing]

Just remember, defense does almost nothing for your damage taken, and if you get enough of it then it does do absolutely nothing. Monsters with a higher level then you have a ratio floor of 1.0, yeah SE cheats. Things like -PDT and -MDT will have a much more significant effect on your survivability then things like defender / cocoon / Defense Bonus traits. Twilight Torque has become my staple TP piece during anything with aoe's and "die now" moves. Also look into Umbra cape and other -PDT pieces, just try not to lower your haste too much in doing so.

I value PDT over Haste at this point. Luckily, most of our good Haste pieces and PDT pieces aren't on the same slots.

RDMs really shine when we take significantly less physical damage, because we already take less magical damage than most jobs. If you want less breath damage as well you can look into Crimson/Blood Scale Mail and Dark Rings. I doubt we will ever be a main tank candidate anymore, but at least we can take hits respectably. God knows we've been taking them from SE for long enough (See what I did there?).

[Ketaru]

You know what bugs me? All the back seat modding. CapriciousOne's posting style is nobody's business but his own.

Actually, once it's on the internet, it ceases to become only one person's business.


Stuff about being too hot to hold a stick and wear a dress and be a nurse

...but healing people with Waltzes and Sambas is perfectly Ok in your eyes and you have no conflicted feelings about that at all. Gotcha.

[saevel]

I value PDT over Haste at this point. Luckily, most of our good Haste pieces and PDT pieces aren't on the same slots.

RDMs really shine when we take significantly less physical damage, because we already take less magical damage than most jobs. If you want less breath damage as well you can look into Crimson/Blood Scale Mail and Dark Rings. I doubt we will ever be a main tank candidate anymore, but at least we can take hits respectably. God knows we've been taking them from SE for long enough (See what I did there?).

Ohh no doubt, I was more talking about something like 2% PDT for 4% haste would be a bad swap, but 4~5% PDT for equivalent haste wouldn't be too bad. I'd keep haste hands / feet over darksteel for example.

[ManaKing]

Ohh no doubt, I was more talking about something like 2% PDT for 4% haste would be a bad swap, but 4~5% PDT for equivalent haste wouldn't be too bad. I'd keep haste hands / feet over darksteel for example.

Exactly, and you can give up DPS if all you care about is being able to take hits. Nothing wrong with an Earth Sham and Genbu's when all you are doing is going around Diaga-ing everything in Dynamis. So long as you have others that are killing and procing with you, you can hold and process more mobs more quickly.

[saevel]

Exactly, and you can give up DPS if all you care about is being able to take hits. Nothing wrong with an Earth Sham and Genbu's when all you are doing is going around Diaga-ing everything in Dynamis. So long as you have others that are killing and procing with you, you can hold and process more mobs more quickly.

I was actually debating getting the -PDT sword for off hand during VW events.

[ManaKing]

I have yet to finish my 2nd one because I can't come up with a real scenerio where I would need it outside of BLU, since they don't even have a shield skill, but I would recommend having at least 1. Longevity is somewhat underrated, but that is only because DPS is so important. The DPS on the sword isn't terrible, there is just blatantly better for DPS.

[saevel]

I have yet to finish my 2nd one because I can't come up with a real scenerio where I would need it outside of BLU, since they don't even have a shield skill, but I would recommend having at least 1. Longevity is somewhat underrated, but that is only because DPS is so important. The DPS on the sword isn't terrible, there is just blatantly better for DPS.

They can pry my almace out of my cold dead hands.

On another note, the new 5+1 hit sword WS seems amazing for RDMs. 100% MND mod on a sword WS with an attack bonus.

[Neisan_Quetz]

*Attack penalty if it mirrors the katana one

I ended up subbing dex sword for abit, I refuse to make x2 any elemental trial as saevel said, you can try and pry almace from my cold dead hands.

[Greatguardian]

Aye. The sword WS seems to act like Slug Shot. Negative accuracy penalty that gets slightly less terrible (yay?) at higher TP.

[saevel]

Aye. The sword WS seems to act like Slug Shot. Negative accuracy penalty that gets slightly less terrible (yay?) at higher TP.

Umm what huh? I haven't noticed any accuracy penalty at all. The JP text reads attack bonus (not accuracy bonus), specifically a pDiff boost. Although I won't negate there being a penalty at 100 TP, if there is one I didn't notice it.

[Greatguardian]

Umm what huh? I haven't noticed any accuracy penalty at all. The JP text reads attack bonus (not accuracy bonus), specifically a pDiff boost. Although I won't negate there being a penalty at 100 TP, if there is one I didn't notice it.

I was talking about Slug Shot. That has an Accuracy Penalty, despite the fact that the description reads as Accuracy varies by TP.

The sword WS may or may not have an attack penalty, no one has gone about testing it specifically yet. However, Blade: Shun has the same wording in its description and it is sitting at a 40% Attack penalty at 100 TP... So.... Yeah....

Edit: Attack boost is not the same as pDif boost. These WS seem to affect straight Attack, before correction.

[saevel]

Well then someone might want to be screaming at SE right now to see if they'll change it. It's a low chance as ever since Tanaka got back the forums have become a PR outlet only. An attack penalty is something RDM does ~not~ need.

I know I'm gonna kick myself later, but do you have the link to the BG posting. Is it a straight -40 attack, -40% or -0.4 ratio. Really big differences in what the overall outcome will be vs anything more then solo fodder.

[Greatguardian]

First proposed here in regards to Resolution: http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/106679-Test-Server-Findings?p=4921977&viewfull=1#post4921977

Testing continues for the next few pages. Blade: Shun testing is started a few posts later.

According to Nightfyre's results, it's a straight effect on Attack applied before conversion to Ratio (via testing on lv0 mobs). According to Motenten, Atoreis, and Byrth's combined testing, it appears to be approximately -40% Attack on Resolution.

[Doombringer]

well... that's depressing

[saevel]

If its like that then the WS will have serious issues on a RDM, or a BLU or a PLD, since all three are low attack jobs. -40 attack can be dealt with, but not if it's a percentage reduction.

And just when it had the potential to be a good stand in for non-CDC players.

[Phafi]

NINJA SHOULD BE THE ONLY SUPPORT JOB FOR RDM

[saevel]

Looks like SE is changing Blade: Shun based on player feedback and findings. I really wish I had more time to nail down what the potential -attack on the sword is, we might get them to change it for the same reason.

[Zerich]

i like to go RDM/RDM so i can get convert with my convert and some fastcast with my fastcast