Disturbing a cleave PT on purpose to hurt a group, [again or not again ToS?]

[Ilax]

Hi,

First i would like to thank everyone that take time to read this thread. Lately more then usual, i have trouble with a specific player who is having fun to track me down on Fenrir server to see when and where i cleave, and then come in the zone and have fun to "AGA/AJA" all monster on last 5~10% HP, or even better, he follow me, then wait i gather together enough monster (~20 monster) then breakga and use "conflux" to make them despawn.

Anyway, i post this thread because i get confuse about GM position in all this. Part of the "Rules and Policies" said, kill a unclaim mob is a fair game.



Q: I was gathering multiple monsters together when another player came and started to defeat the individual monsters that I’d gathered. Is this violation?

A: A player or group of players is permitted to attack any unclaimed monster regardless of the circumstances. Therefore, if you have encountered someone that is killing monsters from a group that you’d gathered, this will be considered a legitimate tactic. However, please contact a Game Master via the /helpdesk command in-game if you have experienced verbal abuse or other violations as defined in our policies.


But then, we also have on the Rules and Policies:



Q: How to judge if an action is harassment.

A: GM defines insults, racism, obscenities, etc. as harassment. Other types of behavior that result in the distress of other players are also categorized as harassment.

Please understand that the things that you say or do might not be considered harmful from your perspective, but they may indeed affect other players' game play.


I would also like to point out this Article:


Article 4.4 Revocations of User Rights.

(f) Harassing, tormenting, intimidating, pestering, obstructing, taking advantage of, or any way hurting or damaging other Users or any third parties or their properties utilizing the PlayOnline Service

Harassment is not taken lightly under the User Agreements and Policies, and if confirmed, will be dealt with swiftly and harshly.
Insuring the well being of those being harassed is just as, if not more important to us than punishing the offending party. If the offending party does not desist from harassing the victim, then further levels of punishment can be introduced to protect the victim from any more unpleasantries.
If you are harassed in any manner, we ask if possible, for you to register the offending players' name in the Black List. If this does not stop the harassment, please make a GM call as soon as possible.

So as i can understand from KB Article: 55261, nothing void your right to take a monster for a good reason... NM turn unclaim, then too bad for the group, they should have secure the claim better, you need a pop item but all monster are taken, then get monster from the gather together group is also justified.

But if you camp a cleave group for several minute to kill the last 5% HP should be totally breaking KB Article: 12559 And further more if you brag in /tell or /say about it.

Anyway, that night, the guy stayed from 2pm to 4pm, then exited to do dynamis and told us: see u in the future, and as promise he came back @ 7h34 and said:

-nice to see your bright face again.
-it seems you and ur friends dont learn ^^, guess history will repeat itsself
-not gonna be nice, ^^
-thats it
-last straw
-no more nice galka
-Tried to warn you

So ya, the warning was, when he is in the zone we need leave the zone immediately, his pseudo reason is variant, lately apparently he does this because it's his duty to stop cleave noobs from infesting the game.

Over 24 GM call, with 12 different player that are tired of this, and nothing been done, we even talked with a senior GM, but it seem GM are too confuse to take the correct action again this issue.

I wish GM review the RULE and apply sanction when this problem occur, of course i am 100% sure i am not the first one placing a call about this issue.

In answer to KB55261 -> Harassment should not be tolerated regardless of the circumstances.

No point to hurt each other with lame action/reason, it might sound like i level noob for this guy, but keep in mind, many player would probably just refuse to play the game if this possibility wasn't available.

**Sorry for my English syntax/grammar, i try hard and as french canadian this is not 100% easy.

[Greatguardian]

This is basically the same situation as Summoner Burns. If you can demonstrate that the person in question is doing it with the intent to harass or impede you, it is an offense.

Killing monsters for the sake of killing monsters is not an offense. Anyone can walk up and kill whatever monster they feel like, regardless of whether or not it has been gathered by another player. But, if someone is intentionally trying to grief another player by taking their mobs, then it is harassment. The difference is not in the action, but in the intent, and you have to be able to show the GM the intent via chat logs if you want them to do anything about it.

Even then, it's up to the individual GM. Your mileage may vary.

[FrankReynolds]

I'm curious about this too, I have had people show up while I am Charged Whisker burning, and Aeolian Edge the mobs I have slept (which wakes them up and basically MPKs me). A Response from the powers that be would be good.

[Ilax]

Thanks for reply Greatguardian,

Well the best i got is: "Thank you. Before I start my investigation, are there any other concerns I may assist you with at this time?"

Sadly, at this time there is no action taken again this guy, he even brag about it and ready to do the same, and is the whole reason of this post, even with major evidence of intent to harass, nothing been done to issue the problem, due to surgery lately i was not able to cleave, but i am starting back tomorrow, i just hope that not going to end into a nightmare again.

Thanks FrankReynolds for your feedback, i hope to see more story about this, because i have big doubt about GM action, and i think it worth to be reviewed/issued.

[uptempo]

Way i see it if your pulling all the mobs and i need something from those mobs im going to cleave your stack regardless yellow is yellow and you have no claim to them all apart from your red mob if you have them slept for charged whisker im sorry but you run the risk of dying and i wouldn't give a stuff if you did.

In your case Ilax that guy seems to be a huge dick head following you around.

[Leonlionheart]

Way i see it if your pulling all the mobs and i need something from those mobs im going to cleave your stack regardless yellow is yellow and you have no claim to them all apart from your red mob if you have them slept for charged whisker im sorry but you run the risk of dying and i wouldn't give a stuff if you did.

In your case Ilax that guy seems to be a huge dick head following you around.

I agree with you for the most part, but the way you go about it is probably wrong.

If you need something from the mob in question, ask first. Don't be a total douchebag. Often times when i do this the PI for the local NM is in my bazaar for 1g, will trade for free if you're gonna nit pick.

[Atomic_Skull]

If I'm farming and some jackwipe shows up and starts gathering every single mob in the area you damn well better believe I'm going to fight for my right to farm and take them off their train.

[Arcon]

That guy sounds like a major dick. Mind sharing his name?

Not saying killing other people's mobs is bad per se, it always depends on the situation. I remember cleaving Coeurls in Tahrongi with some douchebag showing up and started soloing the mobs, always taking out 3 or 4 at a time. I politely told him there's a whole unused area of exactly the same mob just a bit to the west, but he didn't listen and kept going even after multiple tells and pleas. And in that situation, I see absolutely nothing wrong with it. As I said, it's not black or white, there are gray areas and different circumstances to consider. However, in OP's case it sounds like an absolute dick move. Such players are worse than RMT imo and should be permabanned.

[Manicora]

sadly with FC going on, SE reduced the total number of mobs you can get exp off of at once time. anything over 8 at a time you wont get exp. CW burn all kinds. Havent tried to get chain 9+ outside aby but inside limit is 8. as far as this main topic, i have only 1 question: Why has he singled you out? I use to be a jerk and Dia a SM burn as soon as I saw 1st 2hr go off. was np to kill a pt like that @75 and could easily hold hate and tank them all as rdm with spikes up But I talked to a GM 1st, they said "As long as the monster is Yellow its fair game" the GM didnt care if I was doing it to be a jerk or just farming so long as I didnt brag about it.once that happend I would have been Jail state

[Alhanelem]

If your intentional actions are putting someone else in danger (e.g. waking slept mobs) then it might be rising to the level of a code of conduct violation.

[Ilax]

sadly with FC going on, SE reduced the total number of mobs you can get exp off of at once time. anything over 8 at a time you wont get exp. CW burn all kinds. Havent tried to get chain 9+ outside aby but inside limit is 8. as far as this main topic, i have only 1 question: Why has he singled you out? I use to be a jerk and Dia a SM burn as soon as I saw 1st 2hr go off. was np to kill a pt like that @75 and could easily hold hate and tank them all as rdm with spikes up But I talked to a GM 1st, they said "As long as the monster is Yellow its fair game" the GM didnt care if I was doing it to be a jerk or just farming so long as I didnt brag about it.once that happend I would have been Jail state

But explain me how that is not again KB Article: 12559 (http://support.na.square-enix.com/faqarticle.php?kid=12559&id=20&la=1&ret=faq&pv=10&page=0&c=0&sc=0&so=4&q=harassment)? Is all this a lack of knowledge from GM?

[Zagen]

sadly with FC going on, SE reduced the total number of mobs you can get exp off of at once time. anything over 8 at a time you wont get exp. CW burn all kinds. Havent tried to get chain 9+ outside aby but inside limit is 8. as far as this main topic, i have only 1 question: Why has he singled you out? I use to be a jerk and Dia a SM burn as soon as I saw 1st 2hr go off. was np to kill a pt like that @75 and could easily hold hate and tank them all as rdm with spikes up But I talked to a GM 1st, they said "As long as the monster is Yellow its fair game" the GM didnt care if I was doing it to be a jerk or just farming so long as I didnt brag about it.once that happend I would have been Jail state

Haven't Whisker farmed in some time now but the log only shows 8 instances the amount is much higher if you parse the EXP instead of reading the logs. Regardless pulling more mobs = more blue chests = more exp over time.

[Ilax]

Haven't Whisker farmed in some time now but the log only shows 8 instances the amount is much higher if you parse the EXP instead of reading the logs. Regardless pulling more mobs = more blue chests = more exp over time.

Might be true for CW, but is not for FC, Fell cleave is not accurate, so not all the monster take the same DMG, and most of the time only half the link die if not even less, and if you a bright cleaver, you wait 3 sec, and cleave other half to get 16~20 out of ~25 monster. Is very important, and make all the difference between a FC that make 120k/h and 200k+/h.


That guy sounds like a major dick. Mind sharing his name?
I can't, that would totally break the forum guide line.

[Pikel]

I have blu burned a lot trying to get KI. I find there are a bunch of people that just love to wander into your camp and steal your monsters. Leonlionheart is right. If people would just ask before hand you can save a lot of drama. I other camp is there to build time then join me I will build time as long as I get my KI. If you wanted spawns we trade them easy enough. If you wanted to leech jobs I typically had a full party of my own friends doing same. However if you come and aoe my mobs weather it's ws or spells I take that as a challenge. So far I haven't been pushed out yet and we typically laugh at the people trying to steal my monsters. As for Ilax's problem I have yet to come across someone like that. I would be interested in hearing how it turns out as it would restore the little faith I have in SE.

[Ilax]

I mean i can understand that someone might have a bad day, and out of no where toss is frustration and kill all mob from a cleaver, that frustrating, but you can move on quick from this.

But is all another story when the same guy is there for 2h long and that twice, brag about it, and say how he is the new Robin Wood and will save the game from the noob by coming every time i cleave.

We always have pop item in bazaar for 1 gil, i saw so many group pop the NM multiple time, and get pop item from our bazaar multiple time with no problem, heck i even invited a full PT when i had room to finish they trial on "bomb", and did same for fish. I'm not there to hurt anyone, i left Altepa mandies because it was a drama festival everyday, and i got tire of it, so i moved to Vunk on fish/bomb where no one have interest to cleave them, of course is less experience, but we find out over time is more Exp since there no drama/no interruption, well that was until that guy...

Again, i want to point out about KB12559, evidence in log or not, standing next to a cleave PT and AGA they monster every time they are 5~10% and that for several minute, is all again the Rule. I just cannot understand how action is not taken immediately.

[FrankReynolds]

Way i see it if your pulling all the mobs and i need something from those mobs im going to cleave your stack regardless yellow is yellow and you have no claim to them all apart from your red mob if you have them slept for charged whisker im sorry but you run the risk of dying and i wouldn't give a stuff if you did.

In your case Ilax that guy seems to be a huge dick head following you around.
I usually FC, WC or AE burn with my mule. If anyone wanted to xp at that camp, they could just ask to team up. it would be better for both of us. If they needed a drop, they could just ask, or check the 1 gil bazaar items. Some people just want to be dicks. I guess your one of them.

[Camiie]

I know exactly who Ilax is talking about since we're both on Fenrir. This same guy did the same thing to a friend of mine's cleave party. I can't name names either but he's definitely a repeat offender. Just searched him and he's online and in one of the zones he pulls this stunt in.

[Leonlionheart]

I know exactly who Ilax is talking about since we're both on Fenrir. This same guy did the same thing to a friend of mine's cleave party. I can't name names either but he's definitely a repeat offender. Just searched him and he's online and in one of the zones he pulls this stunt in.

Must be a drama llama lover, there's no real reason to repeat this to multiple people

[Camiie]

Must be a drama llama lover, there's no real reason to repeat this to multiple people

The griefer said he'd accept gil from my friend to leave. I'm not sure if that's always his motive or not.

[Leonlionheart]

The griefer said he'd accept gil from my friend to leave. I'm not sure if that's always his motive or not.

What in the world...

How I've handled this issue in the past is to stop for about 10~15min. Then let him start pulling and then Diaga his slept mobs until he can't handle it and dies. Alternatively, when he sleeps/pulls mobs, just do it back to him. If he's just sniping your mobs at low health, use a strategy that removes the lesser amount of HP first (Whirl of Rage -> Enervation -> Charged Whisker with good builds should put the mobs out of 1hit range for AE and his AE will get him hate, then you can CW when he stops running away for the kills)

Most of the time they quit within 10 minutes of you being inactive.

I'd go as far as to say that I occasionally enjoy the competition for pops when they become dickheads about it, because more often than not I can kill mobs much, much more efficiently than they can.

[Nynja]

I dont think this guy actually cleaves mobs for chests, but to "rid vanadiel of cleave nubs"

[Ilax]

Hmm, so instead having GM fix the issue, we have to break the Rules and Policies with "Inappropriate behavior" KB Article: 12649 (http://support.na.square-enix.com/faqarticle.php?kid=12649&id=20&la=1&ret=faq&pv=10&page=0&c=0&sc=0&so=4&q=inappropriate+behavior).

All this make no sense to me, of course i could have stop him doing this by pulling a NM, then.... the purpose of this action is MPK and is Inappropriate behavior, why GM is not stopping the bleeding from start instead making us to do our own justice by breaking even more rule.

In the end you know how all this end up, the rude guy will end to be lucky enough to not get jail for harassment, but you be jailed for MPK'ing him. Back in the time, i learned from this, because back in the time we all called GM about RMT that was move hacking, hell his dead body was moving all around in sky in same pattern, and GM was taking no action, even if 3 LS was sending call none stop about it. One day i got tire of this, and did my own justice, i pulled bunch of mob and used HIDE ability, BOT are stupid, so the bot aggroed and died. In a flash time of 3 min, my screen turn black with "Loading data" i knew from this point what going on, yep i got jailed for MPK, 3 day suspension for doing my own justice.

All this to say, WE ARE NOT GM, we have no power, and if in the end we have to break rule to get justice done, to be then jailed, this game not worth anymore to be played, no one would accept such of issue no matter what server, is plain silly.

Problem that i explained is also not about competition where 2 cleave PT fight each other to win the camp, the guy come SOLO on BLM, and have ZERO chance at all to kill more then 1 mob at the time, but able with no problem to kill 20 mob when they all 5~10% HP left. If i stop pull, then he just stand there doing nothing.


I dont think this guy actually cleaves mobs for chests, but to "rid vanadiel of cleave nubs"
No, i am also not doing any shady bizz, what i am doing is cleave PT and selling spot for 500k gil, but i guaranteed a minimum of lv30 to 95 and 400k cruor out of my 8h cleaving. Player that accept the deal can easy turn the 400k cruor into 1 million of gil. I do this to pay my Aegis which cost a total of 175 million. So take it this way, i help player to get they level + GIL and they help me to get Aegis. No bad intention at all. Is legit as much as who sell Empy item for 200k each, player choice to pay or not.

[Kitkat]

Sadly there is little to nothing a GM will ever do about this issue. Apparently GM's have been told that there is a very specific line a player must cross for it to be deemed harassment despite the wording of KB's or interpretation of ToS. To be rather frank, it is difficult to get them to do anything even if someone is verbally harassing you also.

ToS says it is a bannable offense, but all I've ever seen a GM say is "Have you tried Black listing the individual so as not to see what they say?" I've had people harass me without provocation and this is what I've been told by a GM several times, just blist the individual. Unless they are out in the middle of a zone shouting about something derogatory there usually will be no action taken in the way of harassment issues. The person could be stalking you and a GM will do little to nothing about it regardless of the outlined articles you've mentioned.

Needless to say that on Fenrir, I've seen several individuals do this to people just because they can, or they hold a grudge against the person for one reason or another. Can't say I've ever run into this individual personally, but I also don't sell cleave spots nor have any desire to. The use of stating why you are doing it really goes towards hurting your case rather than helping it since it is primarily irrelevant to the issue itself. Honestly, it only invites people to further attack you rather than help gain an answer as to why GM's don't seem to really uphold ToS rather than expect players to simply ignore an individual who is purposely going out of their way to grief you through verbal or other means within the game environment.

[Ilax]

You lost me a little bit, because the main issue is way over verbal, i wish i had an option to blist his AGA/AJA spell.

No, the problem is way over that, and there nothing i can do about it, only GM at this point can help the situation, and what is my option if nothing is done... If i can't cleave because that guy decided is right to do so, what prevent me to act the same and prevent everyone from cleaving, and what prevent all these to prevent all other by frustration as well. Anyway there is no need for me to explain the hurt that can cause to the game since everyone can picture easy the problem.

There just no good reason for GM to let this happen, no one win out of this. Of course the reason i do my FC is irrelevant, i could do this for Ki or for fun, as you said that change nothing to the issue itself.

[Alhanelem]

Usually you get much action taken for harassment unless, after blacklisting them, they continue to harass you in other ways, or get onto another character to get around the blacklisting or get other people to do their dirty work for them.

[Leonlionheart]

GMs don't do much but unstuck players at this point, and temp ban/ban spam in jeuno and racist slurs.

[Babekeke]

Can't you just use Mighty Strikes to 1-shot them? Or at the very least, pull all mobs and store tp up to 300%. If he casts break then runs to flux to depop them, you use FC to get hate back on them. If he sits and waits for mobs to be at low HP, berserk, blood rage, mighty strikes, sekkanoki, FC x2 should allow you to kill them too quick for him to get a spell off. Open up a restore chest and you have all JAs reset ready to go again, and 300% tp to boot.

I'm sure LLH can tell you the best atma choice for this way of cleaving to get the 1-shots in.

[Arcon]

Can't you just use Mighty Strikes to 1-shot them?

He's cleaving for EXP. If you kill too many mobs at once you won't get EXP for all of them. That's why FC always beat CW for EXP burns. Since he's having people pay him money for it, he wants to provide a valuable service. He'd have to gimp everyone's EXP and his own reputation because of some douchebag.

[Runespider]

If they are doing it purely to harass you then you can get them temp/perma banned for it, all you have to do it call the GM and wait till they talk to you and try goad him into doing it while they are there watching. I got quite a few in trouble for this when I used to SMN burn and it works realyl well, they just depop infront of you :)

If you are pulling every mob and they are trying to get some then it's just competition but as he is purely harassing it's pretty simple. The more he says in say/tell the better too, he will hang himself with his own words..so try get him to talk as much as you can.

[Monchat]

I've pissed of many charged whiskers blu in Konschdatd. The only decent camps over there is the THF tonberry mobs, because they are very close to each other, but its not even worth cleaving considereng there are only 10-15 mobs. However its my favorite camp for gold chest farming DD style [ MNK/WAR+BRD/WHM, capped amber and perle, 90% gold box spawn, 15 dark rings in 2H]. If there is someone cleaving there, they are monopolizing all tonberries I will have no problem stealing. They will leave soon anyway because DD killing is 3xfaster, so soon the mob will be too strong and hit them too hard [and everyone's grudge them lol].

[Kitkat]

You lost me a little bit, because the main issue is way over verbal...

What I mean is that in base it is still a form of harassment as outlined by articles you have quoted, but like verbal harassment there are various loopholes. Since these loopholes exist most times there is little the GM will do outside of saying "We'll look into the issue." As Runespider pointed out, unless they are doing it at the time you are speaking with the GM you'll usually accomplish nothing calling one. Even then it'll be hard unless the GM pops to where you are and witnesses it happening a couple times.

[Drai]

Go to Attowah and do Chigoe, pull tunga and watch him pull hate and die to that little mofo lol, should be easy enough to cfh it and kill it after unless you go with only 1-2 WAR and a SCH for Embrava spam

[Ilax]

What I mean is that in base it is still a form of harassment as outlined by articles you have quoted, but like verbal harassment there are various loopholes. Since these loopholes exist most times there is little the GM will do outside of saying "We'll look into the issue." As Runespider pointed out, unless they are doing it at the time you are speaking with the GM you'll usually accomplish nothing calling one. Even then it'll be hard unless the GM pops to where you are and witnesses it happening a couple times.

Well, that the worse part of it, i was talking to GM and that guy was still doing AGA/AJA/Breagka the pull, i also told the GM, "you don't even need investigate log, he is still doing it right now", sadly that did not even change anything. I placed call @ 2:10pm, GM answer @ 2:45pm, the guy did AGA/AJA the monster from 2pm to 4pm, and also came back 6pm to 8pm.

[HimuraKenshyn]

If the mobs are unclaimed its fair game I haven't see anyone ever get in trouble for pulling mobs off a train. Pretty much the game gives you claim to one mob the rest are fair game the player base decides if they will obey unwritten rules or not. Attempting to mpk or grief are not the same as killing unclaimed mobs that aggro or link its a fed move but not against the tos in any way.

[Teraniku]

If I'm farming and some jackwipe shows up and starts gathering every single mob in the area you damn well better believe I'm going to fight for my right to farm and take them off their train.

I do this as well if someone is training all the mobs in an area I will pick them off one by one if it's something I need to skill on farm whatever. No I won't ask their permission to do so because they didn't ask for mine to take all the mobs in the area.

What Ilax is describing is harassment. The person isn't doing it to farm skill up etc. They are just doing it to impede someone else's progress.

[Arcon]

If the mobs are unclaimed its fair game I haven't see anyone ever get in trouble for pulling mobs off a train. Pretty much the game gives you claim to one mob the rest are fair game the player base decides if they will obey unwritten rules or not. Attempting to mpk or grief are not the same as killing unclaimed mobs that aggro or link its a fed move but not against the tos in any way.

I'm guessing you didn't read past the thread title? Even the OP mentions why it is actually against the ToS. It's not about killing unclaimed mobs, it's about player harrassment.

[wish12oz]

Didn't read anything but the OP, the answer is that unclaimed mobs are fair game. As long as he doesn't type in game that he's doing it specifically to grief you, there is nothing you can do to get him in trouble. Maybe if you can prove he's been following you around and doing it a lot you could get a GM to do something, but I honestly doubt they would unless he said something in game about doing it just to spite you.

The real solution is to do things to get him to die, if you MPK him enough he will stop. Like when he goes to use the conflux after casting on all your mobs, spam cure and other low cast time spells on him to lock him out of being able to use the conflux. If he does stuff to your mobs while youre fighting them and theyre not dead, just disengage and warp away or die, then they will all kill him, then you can raise yourself or walk back and he'll have to homepoint. Beat him at his own game and he'll stop.

EDIT: Remember to taunt him when he's dead in say, things like 'oh man sorry I didn't realize they were going to kill you.' and stuff of that nature, not 'lol you loser that will teach you.' Because the second sentence will get you in trouble for griefing.

[Kitkat]

If the mobs are unclaimed its fair game I haven't see anyone ever get in trouble for pulling mobs off a train. Pretty much the game gives you claim to one mob the rest are fair game the player base decides if they will obey unwritten rules or not. Attempting to mpk or grief are not the same as killing unclaimed mobs that aggro or link its a fed move but not against the tos in any way.

They are being griefed about it. The person is goading them on in /say and /tells showing that it is for harassment purposes only. Not to farm anything or try to AOE kill, just to stop OP from doing what they are doing because they can. What you bring up is one of the various loopholes that exist in the ToS which the person in question would fall back on. OP would need substantial proof and somehow need to have the GM watching or seeing the person say this to them directly. Lastly it falls to the GM to gauge if this is ban worthy or simply let them off with a warning, but most times will end with nothing being said to the individual in question at all.

[FrankReynolds]

I do this as well if someone is training all the mobs in an area I will pick them off one by one if it's something I need to skill on farm whatever. No I won't ask their permission to do so because they didn't ask for mine to take all the mobs in the area.

What Ilax is describing is harassment. The person isn't doing it to farm skill up etc. They are just doing it to impede someone else's progress.

I do the same thing in real life. When I'm at the market, I just grab stuff out of other people's shopping carts. Why should I have to ask permission? I mean, I'm sure I could find the item on my own. Hell, the person might even be willing to give me his, or show me where to find one, but I just really like the idea of being a jerk to random strangers. Besides, it's not against the law. they haven't even paid for the stuff yet, so there is nothing they can do. It makes shopping so much more interesting.

[uptempo]

I do the same thing in real life. When I'm at the market, I just grab stuff out of other people's shopping carts. Why should I have to ask permission? I mean, I'm sure I could find the item on my own. Hell, the person might even be willing to give me his, or show me where to find one, but I just really like the idea of being a jerk to random strangers. Besides, it's not against the law. they haven't even paid for the stuff yet, so there is nothing they can do. It makes shopping so much more interesting.


Lol. Mug that is all.

[Ilax]

lol, i like that one FrankReynolds =P

Anyway, you know... some people by reading this, might end to do this even more now, figuring out, "meh this if fair game". Honestly it was for sure not the intention of this thread, and i feel real real sorry for anyone in near future, if a jerk start doing this to your cleave group.

In all honest, SE should create new rule that CLEARLY say in it, is again the rule to CAMP a cleave pt on purpose to final blow all they gather mob on the last 5~10% for several minute. I mean seriously who are gonna loose from that rule? Accident aga and all mob die, meh that would not fall again the rule, shit happen, but stay for 45 min doing it, well yes that should be totally again the rule.

Give me one good reason that justify a guy to final blow all your mob @ last 5~10% for 2h long.

[Tenji]

I feel for you, the guy sounds like a jerk. =\ I've had this happen to me a decent amount of times as well, and then get camped right ontop of. -.- Or a war just cleave your pull.

[Tenji]

I was actually hoping a forum GM would have posted an answer to this, was looking through this topic. :o

[Greatguardian]

GMs aren't allowed to answer account-related inquiries on the public forums. They aren't even allowed to tell you if they punish someone.

This isn't xbox.com

[FrankReynolds]

lol I got temp banned for saying "I think your trying to insult me, but there must be a language / intelligence barrier making it come out as silly instead."

Maybe they should put the forum mod that made that call in charge of monitoring griefing GM calls. He seems to have no patience for rude people.

[Rohelius]

If you cant say his name in this forum go to KI and post his name on a player warning.

that douche needs his FFXI license revoked~

Is requesting that a bunch of people who aren't happy with him send 1gil deliveries to his MH to block him for months considered harassment :)?

[Ilax]

GMs aren't allowed to answer account-related inquiries on the public forums. They aren't even allowed to tell you if they punish someone.

This isn't xbox.com

Don't think he mean about the guy itself, but about the issue in general.


If you cant say his name in this forum go to KI and post his name on a player warning.

that douche needs his FFXI license revoked~

Is requesting that a bunch of people who aren't happy with him send 1gil deliveries to his MH to block him for months considered harassment ?
Well, giving his name will just cause more "inappropriate behavior" and wont fix at all the issue, in fact it might just insult more people and expand the problem instead of fixing anything, never forget this guy have friend, and they might see you as the jerk when you be doing anything to him.

[Kaizersan]

Really as it stand killing a unclaimed mob is perfectly fine it is bad manners but until the guy cusses you out or anything a long those lines not much can do best option would be to just fight as many as you can keep claimed or go at a time he is not there since he can't be in the zone all the time.

[Ilax]

That asking me to play at night time? Also please, always keep in mind he not "stealing a monster from my gather together", he is stealing the "final blow @ 5%~10%" and that time x20, or he breakga monster to make them despawn by using conflux. Not saying SE should make a rule that void people to get an unclaim monster, that be totally sad for everyone.

[Zaknafein]

If someone comes up, and pulls this when a group is farming empies that would be obnoxious. However from reading this thread it seems this complaint is coming strictly from people making gil off noobs for cleave spots. While I wouldn't waste my own time going on a crusade to harass noobs cleaving mobs for gil so other noobs can level I still find it hilarious. Please continue whining it is good entertainment.

[FrankReynolds]

If someone comes up, and pulls this when a group is farming empies that would be obnoxious. However from reading this thread it seems this complaint is coming strictly from people making gil off noobs for cleave spots. While I wouldn't waste my own time going on a crusade to harass noobs cleaving mobs for gil so other noobs can level I still find it hilarious. Please continue whining it is good entertainment.

people can pay a guy 250k, and go leave their character afk for 8 hours. When they come back, they have enough cruor to make what 2 milion gil?

I'm not sure that qualifies as noob, maybe your just mathematically challenged.

In my case, I have more than one character. I'm not going to get anything out of leveling a job the second or third time that I didn't learn the first time. Cleaving the job not only saves me time, but gets me money in the process. Not cleaving would be a noob move.

[Ilax]

Thanks for your share, but ya, keep in mind nothing void them to do same to your empy cleave party, and i am not sure that part amuse you that much.

[hiko]

call [GM] DAVE! he need to feed jorm

[Vold]

Unless you provide them with exact details(get the exact time the guy takes your pulls or the time for when he opens his mouth to damn himself in /say or /shout, /tells are private although pictures I guess might be acceptable but probably not due to the invention of photoshop and apps like it) Without exact details so that GMs can look at logs they will never be able to do anything based on hearsay. They cannot take your word for it. This is probably where much of the "GMs don't do anything about blank injustice!" comes from. People think that telling a GM "it happened a few minutes ago!" is good enough but it isn't. Without that near exact time frame of things happening they could be looking for a needle in a very large haystack. They cannot afford to do that.

So, if you want people to pay, you have to do a better job in helping GMs make it happen. Problem now is that that guy or surely someone he knows that he's bragged to will have probably seen this thread. If that isn't enough to know people are gunning for him via GMs to cut it out then keep that in game clock handy at all times when he's around and the instant he damns himself take note. I would go this route long before you start playing the payback game because I guarantee you if he doesn't have a problem doing what he's doing, he's got no problem calling a GM to try to get you out of the game, period.

[Xantavia]

I think to get a GM to address this, they will have to catch the guy in the act of casting breakga, then using a conflux to make the mobs depawn. Since he is not attempting to kill them, he has no defense of doing it to gain xp or to farm drops. Next time you are out there and he shows up, maybe you can convince a GM to watch for 10 minutes or so and witness what is happening. If he is doing nothing but despawning mobs, that seems like it would be covered in the part of the TOS dealing with interfering with another players xp.

[Thanotos]

@Ilax....


first of all he is doing nothing wrong, it does not matter what his motive is for wanting to kill the mobs, even if he tells you that he is doing it to mess with you, no one can prove that what he says is true, for all anyone knows anything he types could be complete nonsense, and secondly your are impeding his right to claim those mobs as well by attempting to monopolize, it does not matter what either of your motives are for doing so, in a GMs eyes neither action falls under what true harrassment, unless you can get him to toss some racial slurs at you, or threaten you etc.... then you have no case.

[Karbuncle]

I was going to reply to the above poster, With a long topic regarding ToS, GMs not being Judge Dread, as such, The rules are subject to interpretation... The case being obvious harassment what with the guy Stalking him and purposefully targeting him based on his location.


But i gave up, all I could think about the entire time was "lol". Thats it. My mind is full of F**k at you good sir.

Edit: While the OP Did not have Claim over said mobs, and thusly, would not be able to present this as a "He took my mobs Q_Q" Case, The guy is clearly targeting him, and it can clearly be presented as a Harassment case.

[Genoxd]

I stopped reading @ "again or not again ToS"

[Antanias]

Put in FF14's claiming system, problem solved. Ppl can help attack your monsters all they want, it won't bother ya anymore :D

[Leonlionheart]

Put in FF14's claiming system, problem solved. Ppl can help attack your monsters all they want, it won't bother ya anymore :D

No, thank you.

[Arcon]

I stopped reading @ "again or not again ToS"

Thanks for sharing. You enriched all our lives.

[Swords]

If they are doing it purely to harass you then you can get them temp/perma banned for it, all you have to do it call the GM and wait till they talk to you and try goad him into doing it while they are there watching. I got quite a few in trouble for this when I used to SMN burn and it works realyl well, they just depop infront of you :)

If you are pulling every mob and they are trying to get some then it's just competition but as he is purely harassing it's pretty simple. The more he says in say/tell the better too, he will hang himself with his own words..so try get him to talk as much as you can.

Aye, just FYI though make sure you don't do or say anything to incriminate yourself in the process. Things can easily be turned against you if your rude, cursing, or being a douche yourself (even if they are deserving). Ironically like trolls being very polite and for the most part ignoring them usually infuriates them more than anything, which makes them try harder to be a douche and makes them more likely to incriminate themselves.


Put in FF14's claiming system, problem solved. Ppl can help attack your monsters all they want, it won't bother ya anymore :D

It's still inherently flawed in this situation because it lets people monopolize all the aggroed mobs impeding progress for legit taggers, and gives opportunities to douches by allowing them to get hate on claimed targets and running off with the mob in question trying to unclaim it so they despawn or claim it for themselves.

Though, SE could always do something like implement a 5:00 debuff that has a high chance of inducing terror or intimidation for actions against monster targets when a player dies/flux's with monster hate. Call it a fear tactic, since your trying to run away or your scared of your opponents due to your weakened state, at the very least it would make players wait till they can take action against mobs again and put a kink into zombie tactics.

[hiko]

he follow me, then wait i gather together enough monster (~20 monster) then breakga and use "conflux" to make them despawn.


cure him? you get 1CE on each monster he breaked , (go from agro list to enmity list) if your close enough of mob they go after you.
other possibility (banable) cure spam him until mob wake and dmg him (if can't pk him you overenmity him and get monster attention)

edit : forgot about /blockaid. but on some retard like him odds are he doesnt have

[Kaizersan]

Just go at a different time or a different zone like I said before he can't be on all the time and I doubt he spends all day waiting for you to get on and yes it sucks and all but as long as the rules protect what he does you have no choice to just avoid him all together or change servers.

[Kristal]

Again, i want to point out about KB12559, evidence in log or not, standing next to a cleave PT and AGA they monster every time they are 5~10% and that for several minute, is all again the Rule. I just cannot understand how action is not taken immediately.

Unfortunately, rude and obnoxious behaviour is not a punishable offense. It gets even worse... if you in any way prevent that player from killing the 5~10% mobs you dealt almost all damage to, THEY can call a GM on you for malicious and disruptive gameplay and if a GM sees you pull even a single mob out of it's area, or call for help on even a single one, you are done for. It doesn't matter if there are plenty of mobs left in the area, if they cannot get exp and loot from YOUR pulled (but yellow) mobs, you are the culprit.

[uptempo]

Ilax weren't you the guy who made the big post about going around and waiting for people to die and takeing there yellow mobs if they died and didn't wipe. I mean i do this all the time but maybe this person is someone you did this to and he is indeed takeing his revenge on you lol.

Eitherway man up suck it up, you don't own the mobs in the zone which are yellow if he wants to take your cleave mobs he can.

[Yarly]

just "/say oops i'm sorry" if you intend to cleave other people's mobs and you're excused.
if you say something in ls or party about cleaving to be a jerk, then you're screwed

just make sure everything you type in game has some form of remorse in it and you can cleave/steal all the mobs you can handle

[Ilax]

Ilax weren't you the guy who made the big post about going around and waiting for people to die and takeing there yellow mobs if they died and didn't wipe.
Yup i wont hide from it too, it was about NM thought. The fair game result into: if NM go unclaim, too bad for who was fighting it, steal is totally legit.

In this case is kinda different, i say kinda because of course you can limit your point of view to "is yellow, is fair", but fact is the guy wait on last 5~10% to final blow x20 monster, don't be fooled or confuse, this is not a monster steal, but a kill shot stolen.

I also hope you remember the conclusion of my other thread too, because i was explaining if is fair for him, the same can be fair for me, and i doubt i really need to explain what can result out of this, i let your imagination work a bit, and at this point, we can say goodbye to FC and CW.

Nothing prevent me by frustration of not be able to FC my way, to ruin everyone FC as well, i also think that create a good motive to do it, valid for you or not, the fact is that wont be again the ToS. So the real topic here is about how the rule should be modify in manner to prevent this, and not to see if we can do it because obviously with lack of GM decision about this issue, is clear that they have no clue how to deal with this, as someone said, GM are not hired to JUDGE, and i already said that before, but they are here to follow a specific guideline with the famous KB (Rules and Policies) and currently these are not enough specific to address the current problem.

Take my next problem and choice now, the first one is to try to do my own justice and break even more rule (mpk, cfh on mob, etc), my second choice is to go piss off more cleaver (as we said, this is not breaking rule) and create a huge amount of player unhappy. So choice #1 bring me in jail, choice #2 give me a chance to ruin my reputation but have tiny chance to fix the problem definitively.

Do this make sense? Think twice when you say this is not again ToS and shouldn't. But if the conclusion of the thread end in that direction, then be it and let the great FC/CW be something from the past.

[Camiie]

Just go at a different time or a different zone like I said before he can't be on all the time and I doubt he spends all day waiting for you to get on and yes it sucks and all but as long as the rules protect what he does you have no choice to just avoid him all together or change servers.


What if there's only a certain window of time the OP has to play or conduct his cleaving service? Just stop doing cleaves? Only attempt a cleave if the harasser isn't online? Quit and find a new game?

What if the harasser follows him to whatever zone he goes to? What if the guy instead hunts down another cleave party to harass?

If this is indeed the person I'm thinking of, Ilax isn't the only person he does this to. Others have called GMs on him and of course he's still out there doing his thing. The guy seems to be a general nuisance to the community, but I guess as long as he doesn't use Flee hacks or go on racist tirades in Port Jeuno he can just do as he pleases.

[Kitkat]

In this case is kinda different, i say kinda because of course you can limit your point of view to "is yellow, is fair", but fact is the guy wait on last 5~10% to final blow x20 monster, don't be fooled or confuse, this is not a monster steal, but a kill shot stolen.

You're arguing semantics here at this point. The kill isn't really the issue so much as the fact the person is being malicious about it. Stating that their primary purpose is to interrupt your activity is the primary point, which is against ToS. Him killing the mobs is the same thing as you taking a yellow NM, there isn't claim to it thus it is "fair game."

The point you're trying to prove above all else is that he follows you, stays near you, waits for the chance, then purposely disrupts what you are doing. Doesn't matter why your are doing it, it only matters that he is hindering you from doing so and has stated as much. Simply claiming an unclaimed mob is only the tactic used, the intent behind the tactic is what is in question.

Scenario A: If group A is cleaving a specific group of mobs and then group B comes in the do the same thing which results in people running in and cleaving the opposite groups mobs the issue falls under the "fair claim" loophole.

Scenario B: Same scenario as above, but mix an NM into it such as tunga. Now Group B wants to disrupt Group A by purposely pulling an NM on top of them then dying so aggro on group A occurs. This is seen as malicious behavior.

Scenario C: Now, once again same scenario as first. The difference being there is no Group B, only Individual B. Individual B is in the same area as Group A with the intent to disrupt what Group A is doing. Individual B sends /tells or types something in /say belaying this intent to someone in Group A. Individual B uses the Loophole "Unclaimed = fair game" to disrupt Group A's activities by use of AOE kill shots, or AOE claim spells but instead of killing individual B runs to conflux to lose aggro and cause force despawn of the mobs. This continues to occur for hours and multiple times.

The reason this differs from 2 groups fighting over claims is the intent and motive behind each others actions:

Scenario A: Group B's motives are the same as Group A's, to farm large groups of enemies for xp/cruor/items. A GM has little to no reason to reprimand Group B for running in and stealing unclaimed mobs off Group A.

Scenario B: Both groups are there for the same reason, but this time Group B is breaking ToS by purposely MPKing group A in order to hinder them. A GM has fair reason to warn/jail/ban the individual in Group B or the entire group based on findings.

Scenario C: Group A has motive to farm xp/cruor/items, but Individual B has no similar motive. Individual B has come with the intent to not only impede Group A, but make it known to Group A that is their purpose for doing so. Individual B has said something in /say or /tell to relay their intent and motives to Group A. Through investigation a GM has fair reason to dictate that this is a form of harassment meant to impede, disrupt, and cause distress on Group A through their actions.

The crutch on Scenario C is not just the GM, but what information anyone from Group A can provide to the GM so they can properly investigate the accusations. If the GM cannot find valid proof showing the intent of Individual B through the chat logs then the GM is unable to fulfill conditions that needs to be met before they proceed to correct the problem. This breaks down to the old saying "If you didn't document it, it didn't happen" (anyone in record keeping will know this reference) thus if the GM takes action without locating proof first they are only placing themselves in a position where they will get reprimanded.

This is why it is important for the person making a GM call to not have anything showing that they baited the person they made the call on in. You must also keep track of all interactions between you and the person you made the call on.
Ask yourself these questions before making a call:

Q: Did the person send you a /tell or type something in /say? If so, what and when?

Why:This information is needed to make searching through chat logs easier as you give a window of time, which chat channels the GM has to look through, and what it is a GM needs in order to find the information.

Q: When did this start, and how long has it been going on?

Why: This allows the GM to once again look over a specific span of time to gauge how serious the nature of the issue is.

Q: Did you say anything in response, positive or negative, to the individual in question?

Why: This will go to show the GM if you further instigated the problem, or if the person was being malicious without justification showing their only intent was to disrupt a group/individual that fit a certain criteria. If you further instigated the issue there is a chance that the issue will, at best, result in only a written warning. At worst, the issue will never go further than the initial call due to information found.

Q: What, if anything, have you done to avoid this individual? Have you Blisted them, tried different areas, times, mobs? Did they follow you to different mobs/zones/times?

Why: This will further prove malicious intent behind the actions as the person is following you with no other motive aside from hindering your progress which is part of the definition of Harassment.


The more information you have available for a GM at the time of a call, the more likely you are to see results from the call. Another thing to keep in mind is the number of calls in the past you've place about this person including any dates/times and GM spoke to. I'm sure GMs are required to keep records of all calls they answer, but this would be something that they may or may not specifically give information on if asked directly depending on policies.

[Ilax]

You're arguing semantics here at this point. The kill isn't really the issue so much as the fact the person is being malicious about it. Stating that their primary purpose is to interrupt your activity is the primary point, which is against ToS. Him killing the mobs is the same thing as you taking a yellow NM, there isn't claim to it thus it is "fair game."

The point you're trying to prove above all else is that he follows you, stays near you, waits for the chance, then purposely disrupts what you are doing. Doesn't matter why your are doing it, it only matters that he is hindering you from doing so and has stated as much. Simply claiming an unclaimed mob is only the tactic used, the intent behind the tactic is what is in question.

Scenario A: If group A is cleaving a specific group of mobs and then group B comes in the do the same thing which results in people running in and cleaving the opposite groups mobs the issue falls under the "fair claim" loophole.

Scenario B: Same scenario as above, but mix an NM into it such as tunga. Now Group B wants to disrupt Group A by purposely pulling an NM on top of them then dying so aggro on group A occurs. This is seen as malicious behavior.

Scenario C: Now, once again same scenario as first. The difference being there is no Group B, only Individual B. Individual B is in the same area as Group A with the intent to disrupt what Group A is doing. Individual B sends /tells or types something in /say belaying this intent to someone in Group A. Individual B uses the Loophole "Unclaimed = fair game" to disrupt Group A's activities by use of AOE kill shots, or AOE claim spells but instead of killing individual B runs to conflux to lose aggro and cause force despawn of the mobs. This continues to occur for hours and multiple times.

The reason this differs from 2 groups fighting over claims is the intent and motive behind each others actions:

Scenario A: Group B's motives are the same as Group A's, to farm large groups of enemies for xp/cruor/items. A GM has little to no reason to reprimand Group B for running in and stealing unclaimed mobs off Group A.

Scenario B: Both groups are there for the same reason, but this time Group B is breaking ToS by purposely MPKing group A in order to hinder them. A GM has fair reason to warn/jail/ban the individual in Group B or the entire group based on findings.

Scenario C: Group A has motive to farm xp/cruor/items, but Individual B has no similar motive. Individual B has come with the intent to not only impede Group A, but make it known to Group A that is their purpose for doing so. Individual B has said something in /say or /tell to relay their intent and motives to Group A. Through investigation a GM has fair reason to dictate that this is a form of harassment meant to impede, disrupt, and cause distress on Group A through their actions.

The crutch on Scenario C is not just the GM, but what information anyone from Group A can provide to the GM so they can properly investigate the accusations. If the GM cannot find valid proof showing the intent of Individual B through the chat logs then the GM is unable to fulfill conditions that needs to be met before they proceed to correct the problem. This breaks down to the old saying "If you didn't document it, it didn't happen" (anyone in record keeping will know this reference) thus if the GM takes action without locating proof first they are only placing themselves in a position where they will get reprimanded.

This is why it is important for the person making a GM call to not have anything showing that they baited the person they made the call on in. You must also keep track of all interactions between you and the person you made the call on.
Ask yourself these questions before making a call:

Q: Did the person send you a /tell or type something in /say? If so, what and when?

Why:This information is needed to make searching through chat logs easier as you give a window of time, which chat channels the GM has to look through, and what it is a GM needs in order to find the information.

Q: When did this start, and how long has it been going on?

Why: This allows the GM to once again look over a specific span of time to gauge how serious the nature of the issue is.

Q: Did you say anything in response, positive or negative, to the individual in question?

Why: This will go to show the GM if you further instigated the problem, or if the person was being malicious without justification showing their only intent was to disrupt a group/individual that fit a certain criteria. If you further instigated the issue there is a chance that the issue will, at best, result in only a written warning. At worst, the issue will never go further than the initial call due to information found.

Q: What, if anything, have you done to avoid this individual? Have you Blisted them, tried different areas, times, mobs? Did they follow you to different mobs/zones/times?

Why: This will further prove malicious intent behind the actions as the person is following you with no other motive aside from hindering your progress which is part of the definition of Harassment.


The more information you have available for a GM at the time of a call, the more likely you are to see results from the call. Another thing to keep in mind is the number of calls in the past you've place about this person including any dates/times and GM spoke to. I'm sure GMs are required to keep records of all calls they answer, but this would be something that they may or may not specifically give information on if asked directly depending on policies.
Scenario D: a FC or CW group just zone in, see the camp is taken by group A, and to "free up the camp", they stand next to the cleave PT and wait all monster @ 5~10% and final blow them until group A is distress enough to leave the zone.

Scenario E: a FC or CW group just zone in, see the camp is taken by group A, and just outpull them in manner to be competitive and then they cleave they own pull.

I don't mind about competition (Scenario E), i don't mind about someone get angry and AoE all the monster once by frustration, but is all another story if group A start camping Group B in unfair manner to distress them.

Let see last Scenario:

Scenario D: Same as Scenario A at one exception, the offended group start camping the other group too, then you have 2 group standing there not pulling anymore since they know the pull be stoled @ last 5~10%. Result, 2 group got they game play screw.

I also don't buy the "nothing said in log, then nothing happen", specially when you talk to a GM when it still happen live, GM could just take a look of what going on. To me is as much stupid as a murder in RL getting investigate and they have all material to prove it on the crime scene, but that dude is wont be guilty because he never told anyone he going to commit a murder.

I can understand the reason of LOG, is to make sure GM are not taking action with no solid reason, and suspending someone base on what he saw is impossible for gm to justify, unless he start record it for the proof, which i am sure they not doing, but that the reason SE have senior GM and normal GM.

[ala2]

My group had this situation happen last night, another group decided to try killing chigoes we were pulling so we killed theirs after they pulled, they responded with a blm to hide nearby our pulls and nuke at 5-10%, so we job changed a few people and set a blu on each end and someone kept the blm highlighted and warned if was near a pull. In the end it was about strategy and determination to not give up that kept us our camp. Unfortunaltely not everybody gonna share or kill something else, how you respond to these situations is what prevents them from happenning, not GMs.^^

[Kitkat]

D and E are both technically the same as A, once again you're just bringing in semantics. It falls into the "Fair game" loophole as they have a justifiable reason/motive to do it, and according to ToS the right to. The reason you want to have something in chat-log is it shows motive behind the action. Without it there is the lack of evidence to show proof this is exactly why the individual is doing what they are doing. Without this proof it can be chalked up to the "Fair game" loophole since when asked the individual can say "I'm trying to get items in chest and since they are unclaimed I have the right to do this."

Sadly it is the same as an individual waiting for an NM by another group to go unclaimed, but the group hasn't wiped, and another individual takes said NM and finishes it off. They did no malicious act prior to cause claim to be lost, it just wasn't maintained by the group and thus killed by the other person/group that was there. This is why it is called the "Fair game" loophole.

You likening this to murder is inaccurate. You bring up points about evidence, but don't seem to understand that part of the evidence is motive and intent. If there is no motive/intent then it is difficult to prove beyond the "reasonable doubt" doctrine, hence why perceived murderers "get off the hook" in court. If the investigation team has evidence that shows the person of interest was at the crime scene and may have even handled the weapon it is still their job to place intent/motive behind why the murder occurred. Hence the saying "Innocent until proven guilty."

Alternatively, say you have someone who has been murdered and you get someone known as a "crazy" to admit to the murder via a Confession. Once again, the investigation team must establish intent/motive behind why the murder took place before accepting the confession and sentencing the person who confessed. While this seems like something that only happens in "TV drama" it is a real part of the investigation that must occur in order to gain a conviction.

This is why it is incredibly important that if anything is said in /tell or /say that the GM be told about it as this goes a long way in their investigation behind the incident since it establishes intent/motive of the individual and effectively blocks their use of the "fair game" loophole in the ToS.

[Ilax]

I totally understood the "fair game" loophole since start, i also from OP, underlined the rule about it, but what i am talking here is not if it fall into the "fair game" loophole, but how the rule should be review.

Just to point at ala2 post, about chigoes, these group could offer competition by pulling/kill they own monster, but instead, they find out more ingenious to AGA other group when monster @ 5~10% HP, and i don't have to be there to hear the drama, i am sure it was quite interesting. A simple GM could have interrupt the first action, instead of that, both group ended to hurt each other.

I don't really care if KB Article: 55261 say is ok, that do not mean is "fair game" to me, and i don't have to go far to prove it, i can just go in any zone as WAR, BLM or BLU and start final blow everyone cleave and make any cleave impossible. Also keep in mind, if this rule is not modified, people know is "fair game" loophole and this will just happen more now, specially after reading this thread.

Also remember my answer about KB Article: 55261 -> Harassment should not be tolerated regardless of the circumstances. or if you prefer "inappropriate behavior" should not be tolerated. Also please make difference between a group AGA/FC/CW when monster are full HP and the one that final blow 20 monster @ last 5%. If you can't' make the difference between both, i just can't help then as hard as i tryed :(

[Ilax]

Just to point out KB Article: 12649


Behavior that disturbs other players' game experience but would not be defined as harassment is considered inappropriate behavior. GMs will take action against such actions. Although GMs do not handle these issues, if such behavior has exceeded a certain degree, a penalty may be given to the offender.

Online conduct has been established to help out the in-game community. Healthy growth of in game community might be disrupted if a GM plays the main role in such issues. Therefore, instead of actually getting involved in such issues, the GMs may think of the best way to have these issues resolved between players.

If you encounter any inappropriate behavior, please contact a GM in game. You can also contact the Square Enix Support Center by selecting "Additional Assistance" button located at the bottom of this Knowledge Base article.

Examples of Inappropriate Behavior:

-MPK attempts
This refers to actions in which the offender intentionally brings monsters to other players and makes them attack the victims. The GM may confiscate the offender's loot, or delete the monsters if confirmed. A penalty will also be issued to the offender and any players who aid the attempt.

-Monster holding
Holding a monster, especially Notorious Monsters, over an extended period or intentionally delaying the battle in order to adjust the next spawn window may result in GM involvement.

-Continuous (chat log) spamming
Spamming /tell, /random or skill increment logs to prevent other players' from chatting, regardless to intention, may result in GMs taking action against players if the action has disturbed others.

-Repeatedly delivering items to a certain player
Players who repeatedly send (unwanted) items to hinder the receiver from using the delivery system will be given either a warning or penalty.

-Gridlocking
This referes to actions such as blocking passages to mog houses in groups, or gathering near mog house entrances because the home point has been set there. These actions are not considered violations, but GMs may approach you and request you move away from the spot. If the player is not present, GMs will leave a message and move you to a nearby spot.

could add in this example as well:

-Camping a group.
This referes to actions such as standing next to a group in manner to prevent other players from getting Exp/chest/cruor for several minute.

No matter how you see it, that directly "disturbs other players game experience". Be competitive and cleave other group monster from 100% is for sure way more appropriate, still rude of course, but not inappropriate behavior.

[Crawlerbasher]

I had a simper problem and since I was aware that any mobs unclaimed was free for all, there was very little that could be done about it.

But since this guy waited till all the mobs was gathered up before FCing our bunch of mobs, even though there was a few around that he could have done his own.

After a while we decided to report this to a gm.
Not for FCing the mobs we garbed, but because of how he waited for us to collect them all before FCing.

Meaning that he was doing this on purpose.
After reporting this to the GM he seemed to stop doing that and just got his own little group together.

[Loralei]

yea this happened alot back in the smn burn days and theres nothing the gm's will do about white mobs. and it was mostly the ppl who kept the tunnel all day and charged 200k+ theyd aga you til you gave up and left so they could have the area back.

[Teraniku]

I do the same thing in real life. When I'm at the market, I just grab stuff out of other people's shopping carts. Why should I have to ask permission? I mean, I'm sure I could find the item on my own. Hell, the person might even be willing to give me his, or show me where to find one, but I just really like the idea of being a jerk to random strangers. Besides, it's not against the law. they haven't even paid for the stuff yet, so there is nothing they can do. It makes shopping so much more interesting.


That was pretty good analogy Frank, but you forget there's technically only one item in the other person's cart (the claimed mob) and the rest of the items are just next to the Grocery cart, not in it.

[Arcon]

That was pretty good analogy Frank, but you forget there's technically only one item in the other person's cart (the claimed mob) and the rest of the items are just next to the Grocery cart, not in it.

No, they're all in the person's cart. If they weren't, there would be no difference to any other item in the store, but there is in the game, namely the mob aggroing the person. The one claimed mob is the one item still in the person's hands. While not impossible to take it away from them, you'd have to apply questionable legal moves, like forcibly remove it from their posession (they still want it and there's a struggle about claiming this one item, or in game context, enmity steal, which is a bannable offense). Everything else is fair game, but still a dick move. His analogy was spot on.

[Teraniku]

No, they're all in the person's cart. If they weren't, there would be no difference to any other item in the store, but there is in the game, namely the mob aggroing the person. The one claimed mob is the one item still in the person's hands. While not impossible to take it away from them, you'd have to apply questionable legal moves, like forcibly remove it from their posession (they still want it and there's a struggle about claiming this one item, or in game context, enmity steal, which is a bannable offense). Everything else is fair game, but still a dick move. His analogy was spot on.

Ok, I can see it your way. Still doesn 't make it right.

[Modoru]

I remember back when I used to farm jellies in Korroloka as a Thief. Mid-farming, some group started taking my jellies while I was using cyclone to kill 'em off in groups [yes, cyclone, don't judge me. :C] and they kept pulling them off until I got peeved and cycloned their group of mobs as a whole, taking some of their experience points in the process.

One of them started sending me some hateful tells and GM'd me, to which I got subsequently jailed, for "maliciously trying to disrupt gameplay". What a dick. Takes my farming stuff and then GMs me when I fight back. |:

In the end, it's all about who you talk with and how clear you make the case. I got off with a warning, but they didn't entirely believe me; but this is a lot more obvious, so he SHOULD be taken in or *something*.

[Jeubond]

Hi all,
Just to throw in my own 2pennies worth . . .
I think what this illustrates is that there are some absolute ????heads in FFXI who seem to be really sad and for whatever reason strive to wreck others play, be this for financial or sheer evil ends is a moot point, they do it and the end result is many upset players who quite rightly feel very peed-off !
I see this and other anti-social behaviour more and more these days, wish there were some easy ways to solve it.

One of the joys of this game for me are the friends I've met while camping nm's etc, how nice to turn up at the pop site, see others also waiting and within minutes a party is formed. How galling then to then find other players who have s/i themselves with the sole purpose of stealing the nm when it pops. Not for them common courtesy or consideration that others may have spent many hours camping, oh no, their game comes first and blind to any entreaties they kill the nm and warp away.

I have seen Ilax quite a few times and know that if he is aware that you need any of the mobs he is also after is only too willing to either join with you or else take turns. I'm sure he won't remember me but it it thanks to him that I got my Bst seals in double-quick time for which I am eternally grateful.
I speak as I find, if he was selfish or rude I would say but his current problem is due I feel in part to sheer envy and I feel deeply that given his courtesy his 'stalker' should be dealt with by a GM there and then, he does not deserve what amounts to harrassment in my books to continue.

The solution is not easy or clear-cut as the many posts in this thread attest, however, how nice if we could all get on together and show some maturity of thought.
Shout me when it happens please . . .
Take care !
Jeubond

[Teraniku]

I guess it's my own personal experiences which clouds me on this. Every time I've been in this situation I've been farming and pulling one mob at a time and maybe get a link or 2 every once in a while. I know there are other players in the zone and I want them to have the same opportunity I have to get mobs for farming. Then somebody comes along and links every single mob in the zone and then takes over 30 min to kill them all, basically making the entire zone unplayable for everyone else for around 45 mins because they can't kill their mobs fast enough. BLMs in this situation I pretty much leave alone because I know they can AoE the mobs in a bunch and kill them fairly quickly. If you're a DD and using AoE attacks on weaponskills and can kill all the mobs within 10 minutes I have no problem with that.

[Sevvy]

As someone who has worked in the industry I will say that the person is not doing anything wrong in the sense of what you say. If a mob goes yellow that means its okay for ANYONE to take it, whether or not the intentions are to "spite" you. Now, if this said person whispered you with a "im doing this to grief you" statement, that would be considered harassment. The action itself isnt harassment, its the motive behind it and with any motive you need proof!

[Arcon]

I guess it's my own personal experiences which clouds me on this. Every time I've been in this situation I've been farming and pulling one mob at a time and maybe get a link or 2 every once in a while. I know there are other players in the zone and I want them to have the same opportunity I have to get mobs for farming. Then somebody comes along and links every single mob in the zone and then takes over 30 min to kill them all, basically making the entire zone unplayable for everyone else for around 45 mins because they can't kill their mobs fast enough. BLMs in this situation I pretty much leave alone because I know they can AoE the mobs in a bunch and kill them fairly quickly. If you're a DD and using AoE attacks on weaponskills and can kill all the mobs within 10 minutes I have no problem with that.

30min? How in the what? 10min? What kind of DDs do you see doing that? If it takes more than two minutes to kill them I'd count that as holding mobs (20 seconds for WARs). If it's 30min of killing them one by one, you should note that they start to repop within 1min, so unless you're trying to gather them yourself, that should work for you too.


As someone who has worked in the industry I will say that the person is not doing anything wrong in the sense of what you say. [..] The action itself isnt harassment, its the motive behind it and with any motive you need proof!

These two statements are contradictory, as that was exactly what Ilax said in his opening posts. The guy who came to harass him actually did just that and said that he was gonna come to do it again and that it's not gonna be nice, which is just the kind of proof he needs.

[Zarabeth]

This will soon be a moot point as war att power will be nerfed in next update, so no more FC pts

[Arcon]

This will soon be a moot point as war att power will be nerfed in next update, so no more FC pts

I can't tell if you're joking or trolling, although I suppose the latter is a subset of the former.

[Ilax]

Well SE is not taking action, and seem that they will never take action again this issue, actually they never take action again anything period, no matter what is the issue, except if is RACIAL/Sexual comment....

But guess what, again... someone did cleave mob in my face @ last 5%, but this time he told me: {English} {too weak}, called GM for harrasment + racial comment, and all i got told is to BLIST him... are you #$@%@#$ serious???????

I am done with this GAME, thanks DEV, your game been fun and nice for many year, but is time for me to find something better to play with less frustration, a game where it happen to have fun + support.

3 account less for you, problem solve. (seem the only way you get justice in FFXI...)

[Thanotos]

one noob down.......

[Jeubond]

one noob down.......

This comment is typical of the current mindset that seems to be prevailing in FFXI these days . . . .
For your information Thanotos, Ilax has every job at 95 and more exp than you could ever dream of !
A sad day for FFXI and shame on you SE for allowing the game to degenerate further, how many more players will you lose before you see sense, trust me, if your intention is to get us all to move to FFVI you are very sadly mistaken, it ain't going to happen.
Jeubond

[Arcon]

one noob down.......

One noob comments on it.

[Jackstin]

My question is: why can't you prove it?

You've already said he's communicated with you; just wait for him to do it again and make a record or take a screenshot. You can also make a record of when he comes to do this to you.

If there's no way you can prove it, then from an outsiders point-of-view there is no way to differentiate between someone harassing you, and someone just being a nob. But regardless of whether you believe this, why can't you prove it?

[Ilax]

Once again, explain me... how i need to prove anything when the guy is still doing the final blow @ 5% when i am talking to a GM? What can i do since the KB55261 say is legit? I do understand is legit to grab any unclaim mob, is another story to final blow a bunch of mob @ 5% taking advantage of player.

FrankReynolds got the best "picture" of the problem.


I do the same thing in real life. When I'm at the market, I just grab stuff out of other people's shopping carts. Why should I have to ask permission? I mean, I'm sure I could find the item on my own. Hell, the person might even be willing to give me his, or show me where to find one, but I just really like the idea of being a jerk to random strangers. Besides, it's not against the law. they haven't even paid for the stuff yet, so there is nothing they can do. It makes shopping so much more interesting.

If that company in RL would do nothing, well people would just say screw this and go shop somewhere else.

*lol at tags for this thread* again... prove my point that SE fail to control passively they player, this will end in 1 direction, FFXI be full of jerk, and good luck for anyone to play this game from that point.

w/e ppl, have fun hurting each other @ they play time, and don't forger to piss off cleave PT you see around, is LEGIT!!

[Unleashhell]

How often does this happen to you and is it the same person over and over? What zone do you do this in? I know it can be frustrating but there are ways to handle people like this. Unfortunately you cant post those kinds of things here.

[Thanotos]

the comment i made was actually a play on what the OP said regarding the harrasser, that he was "cleaning up noobs", and that he finally accomplished his task since the OP stated they quit. Honestly there is a lot worse shit that happens to players in other mmos than some guy cleaning up your hard work, so stop crying if u cant handle a multiplayer game. I am not sure if it's just me but tired of seeing a bunch of damn kids crying over dumb shit in these forums, when there is a ton of other things to be worried with. I dare you to respond to this message with some flaming, I take great pleasure in devouring those like you, I am Thanatos God of Death, and I approve this message.

[Thanotos]

oh and one last thing roflmao at frankreynolds.

[Trumpy]

There was a guy in abby altepa that would CW for a whole alliance of people payin him to level them. He used detectors there. Well my LS was killin the iron giant and didnt really need me and i wanted to try out my CW i had just started to mess with (plus TEs are never a bad idea). So i pulled like 10 mobs max a few times leaving plenty for the other guy.

Well the last time i had pulled my 10 and slept them and i had debuffed them a bit i think when that guy ran up and cast some spell and pulled them all but like 3 from me. And he did a emote or said something in say i cant recall. So i followed him to the tunnel his group was at and he had just slept them. I immediately cast CW and one shotted them all which is usual for me. So i ended up killin my pull plus the ones he had grabbed before takin my pull. And i said in say basically "If that is the way you want to be i can play that game too."

I then went back to my group while they finished the iron giant and he followed and talked smack about me in say and even followed us while we killed a few Ranis. I guess i really angered him cause he tried to take my pull and i made him feel butt hurt when he failed. I dunno was kinda funny to me. I think a few days after that was the last time i saw him on.

[Trumpy]

Also another time i was helpin a LS mate get arcana kills for his sword. he needed like 500-600 or somethin. we went to Abby Mis and did detectors there. We pretty much pulled every single detector. Took bout 2 hours i think to get them all. I tried a few different atma setups and even let my LS mate give it a try as he never had on his blu.

Towards the end a group came up and watched us kill a group. then they asked in say if they could join us as they needed arcana kills on Lightsday. We allied up and I finished their trials in 1.5 pulls. Would have taken them much longer if they had done it the normal way they were goin to try. In the end they were very considerate people and i even went on with them to finish the next two trials with them as i was on the same ones.

All people have to do is ask.

[Concerned4FFxi]

If I'm farming and some jackwipe shows up and starts gathering every single mob in the area you damn well better believe I'm going to fight for my right to farm and take them off their train.

But are you gonna stalk the guy? Because that's what the op is saying, it's not about him hogging all the mobs, it's about the guy following him. Let's face it, the op said that they moved, so why did the guy follow him? If they moved their burn party, then the mobs he was burning on respawned and he had no problem getting what he wanted. He should have stopped there, "ok, I stole your burn mobs, move your burn pt." "Ok I moved my burn pt, why are you still following?", at that point the guy stealing the mob becomes an ass."

[Arcon]

the comment i made was actually a play on what the OP said regarding the harrasser, that he was "cleaning up noobs", and that he finally accomplished his task since the OP stated they quit. Honestly there is a lot worse shit that happens to players in other mmos than some guy cleaning up your hard work, so stop crying if u cant handle a multiplayer game. I am not sure if it's just me but tired of seeing a bunch of damn kids crying over dumb shit in these forums, when there is a ton of other things to be worried with. I dare you to respond to this message with some flaming, I take great pleasure in devouring those like you, I am Thanatos God of Death, and I approve this message.

Another idiot who clearly thinks too much of himself. I'm surprised you even read the OP, because you obviously don't know what this is about. No one complained about someone taking their mobs, and if you think that you're retarded (and you can't read). Also, you're a Galka and you smell. Let the flame train roll, bitch.

[Moldtech]

Ilax is the best cleaver on our server in every way imo, whoever is doing this is doing in out of pure jealousy and that's it. What's the thing you young kids say, "hater's gonna hate?" Whoever it is, they need to get a freaking life and get over it, they'll never reach Ilax's character level, in the sense of fair play and achievement, especially since they spend their time grieving his cleave parties out of envy and spite. They're not going to get very far ahead doing that at all so they'll only become more jealous as time passes.

It must be sad to be so pathetic that you become jealous of someone else's video game character to the point you attempt to stop the inevitable and make a fool out of yourself in front of everyone involved. It is grieving too and I've seen a few people get banned from grieving the old smn burn parties back in the day as well. Ilax, don't let it get to ya, think of it as a compliment that someone is so jealous as to act in such a way because of your success in the game.

[wish12oz]

Can I make a suggestion?
Instead of just rage quitting, why don't you follow the guy around and MPK him at every possible opportunity and just make everything he does in game hell on him until you get banned? That seems like a much more fun idea to me. And obviously, it's not like you care anymore.

[Jeubond]

Ilax is the best cleaver on our server in every way imo, whoever is doing this is doing in out of pure jealousy and that's it. What's the thing you young kids say, "hater's gonna hate?" Whoever it is, they need to get a freaking life and get over it, they'll never reach Ilax's character level, in the sense of fair play and achievement, especially since they spend their time grieving his cleave parties out of envy and spite. They're not going to get very far ahead doing that at all so they'll only become more jealous as time passes.

It must be sad to be so pathetic that you become jealous of someone else's video game character to the point you attempt to stop the inevitable and make a fool out of yourself in front of everyone involved. It is grieving too and I've seen a few people get banned from grieving the old smn burn parties back in the day as well. Ilax, don't let it get to ya, think of it as a compliment that someone is so jealous as to act in such a way because of your success in the game.

Hear, hear, well said Moldtech I agree !

Hi Ilax,
I hope the above and other posts in this thread show you that there are some of us on Fenrir who do appreciate your input into FFXI, who support you and who also recognise the many hours you have put into the game to get your character to where it is today.
[watching you cleave is truly an education and a joy to behold]
Has it ever occurred to you that to some of us you are an inspiration and that you leaving will make our game poorer and the jerks that much stronger, surely to stop and fight will ruin their day ?!
I know it must be very frustrating for you but there are way's round it surely.
I am just one of many of your supporters, have faith, you will prevail !
Jeubond :)

[Jackstin]

Once again, explain me... how i need to prove anything when the guy is still doing the final blow @ 5% when i am talking to a GM? What can i do since the KB55261 say is legit? I do understand is legit to grab any unclaim mob, is another story to final blow a bunch of mob @ 5% taking advantage of player.

There's no doubt that the guy is being a moron, but the question is whether he is breaking the rules. He is allowed to do everything he is doing to you, however he is not allowed to do it for the sake of harassing you. The only way to differentiate between the two scenarios in certainty (no matter how obvious it may appear to you) is evidence.

I do find it suspicious that you are unable to provide evidence, given that it should be very easy to do. Is it possible that you've engaged him in some way? If this is just a discussion thread venting your frustrations, then fair enough you don't have to prove anything to me, or indeed ever would.

However, if you are making feedback, or want something actually done about it, you've got to prove that your side of the story is the correct one.

[macross]

Just one shot them all and pull 8 at a time shrug if there's nothing else you can do about it.

[Arbole]

I'm curious as to whether this individual was part of Ilax's linkshell. There's two sides to every story, so obviously he isn't harassing him solely because he did a "/sea all" and randomly picked his name out of the list. Unfortunately, a code of conduct doesn't guarantee that these rules put into place will be enforced. You can relate these instances to cheating in academics. It's a widely accepted concept among people who cheat that it's fine as long as they don't get caught, and if they do, then who really is willing to hold them accountable for their actions? SE has these rules in place, but that doesn't matter if the GMs are unwilling to take action. I believe this is the position that most GMs take right now, which is greatly different than how they responded to harassment in the past. I remember an N-bomb going off in Whitegate years ago that immediately resulted in the ban of a player account. We've entered a period of lawlessness in Vana'diel that has no signs of changing.

[Unleashhell]

I'm still hoping to see a name of who it was. I see no reason not to tell the rest of us who it is.

[Camiie]

I'm still hoping to see a name of who it was. I see no reason not to tell the rest of us who it is.

I think it's against forum rules to call out players like that, but I'm pretty sure I know who Ilax is talking about because the EXACT same thing happened to a friend of mine's cleave and I know for sure who did it. If you see me online you can ask me, and I'll give you the name.

[Yugl]

Nothing the person the OP describes has violated a strict reading of SE's rules. Anything you wish to assert is only done so through branching interpretation. Since SE does not engage in branched interpretation, they will not take action.

[Arcon]

Nothing the person the OP describes has violated a strict reading of SE's rules. Anything you wish to assert is only done so through branching interpretation. Since SE does not engage in branched interpretation, they will not take action.

There is no "strict reading of SE's rules". The rules aren't open for interpretation. Attacking yellow mobs is allowed. Harrassing is not allowed. The end. The interpretation part falls on whether or not the actions themselves were harrassment, and that is always up for interpretation. Given the circumstances of this case in particular, following Ilax around and doing it constantly, even coming back at several times, this leads one to believe that the guy might do it purposefully to harm Ilax. However, it's far from conclusive. Then again, he did leave some comments that could incriminate him:


-nice to see your bright face again.
-it seems you and ur friends dont learn ^^, guess history will repeat itsself
-not gonna be nice, ^^
-thats it
-last straw
-no more nice galka
-Tried to warn you

Of course this isn't 100% proof that he was doing it on purpose, but there won't ever be 100% proof in interpretive cases, which are all cases relating to harrassment. I'd say it's pretty obvious what was going on here. Or do you think it's different?

[Kiroko]

I don't think that the fact yellow mobs are being taken should really be in any point of the argument of people posting, we all know that's fair game, but this dude is stalking this party. This guy should be placed in jail because of harassment, that little dialog he said to the OP proves he's just being a dick face and intentionally hurting the cleaver and everyone who is there for the exp. So one guy is hurting 18 people and nothing is really being done about it by the system. Sometimes I seriously hate people on FF and the GM system fails most of the time.

-nice to see your bright face again. <- Stalking
-it seems you and ur friends dont learn ^^, guess history will repeat itsself <- saying he's harassed them before
-not gonna be nice, ^^ <- Like wtf? premeditating his actions and telling the person he is going to harass them now.
-thats it
-last straw
-no more nice galka
-Tried to warn you <- He shouldn't be warning them of anything, they can play the game how ever the hell they want

If this wasn't harassment, and just the taking of mob, the dude wouldn't have said anything at all to the OP. Why the hell would you say any of this to someone, if you were just going to take the mob, with out the intention of harassment?