What would SE have to put on a shield for you to consider using it?

[ManaKing]

I'm more likely to wear an earth Shamshir in my offhand than a Genbu's shield. Can anyone think of something that would make Shields worth it on RDM?

[Neisan_Quetz]

Not being able to Dual Wield, which is the times I used PDT Shamshir and Genbu's.

Or during convert if I ever made Murgleis/MP Sword or something (no plans on either atm). I really can't think of using a shield for any other reason unless I /war /blu or /drk and melee (rare), and it's almost always been genbu's. Before I had one I used Sentinel/Muse Tariqah for full Mnd set though.

[cidbahamut]

Make them break the haste cap and put large chunks of haste on them. I can't think of anything else that would really make up for losing out on Dual Wield. They'd have to introduce something pretty broken to make shields attractive when Dual Wield is on the table.

[Seriha]

I'd like them to avoid a "one shield to rule them all" situation. Sadly, shields are a defensive tool in a game where offense is king. It'd be nice if Shield Mastery were tweaked to have some offensive property like occasionally shield bashing on an attack round or randomly covering someone you're standing in front of (and blocking).

[Zaknafein]

Bewbz might be enough

[Morgantisthedon]

Augmented Genbu shield for Rdm is still a nice option depending what you are doing. I got +20 mp +4% cure and +3 % magic accuracy, there is list on wikki of possible stuff. Once again its merly situational and what you are doing and trying to accomplish.

[Crimson_Slasher]

Since crit ws are king usually to most, id say some DA, come attack, and crit rate/damage increases. Aside from that, perhaps give them a direct FTP boost or TP bonus to mainhand. Something along the lines of +0.3-+0.5 or even dare i say, +1.0 on FTP modifier. Wouldnt fix the problem totally but would be a huge boon to those one-hander bsts, rdms, attack plds, and the like. But thats a wee bit moot for me as i use shields sometimes as is, Genbu for tankyness with cure potency aug, Sentinel for wsing (sometimes tariqah, gonna look into testing viking but i usually am up on attack) And when im NOT tanking or soloing and can make use of it, Avalon shield for 5 MAB on sanguine blade.

[ManaKing]

Make them break the haste cap and put large chunks of haste on them. I can't think of anything else that would really make up for losing out on Dual Wield. They'd have to introduce something pretty broken to make shields attractive when Dual Wield is on the table.

What if they let you break the haste cap if you had a shield on? Pretty much the same idea, but I don't want to put words in your mouth, if that wasn't your implication.

I think we are aware a shield doesn't make up for an offhand in any practical situation, much less the one where a RDM actually has Fencer.



I'd like them to avoid a "one shield to rule them all" situation. Sadly, shields are a defensive tool in a game where offense is king. It'd be nice if Shield Mastery were tweaked to have some offensive property like occasionally shield bashing on an attack round or randomly covering someone you're standing in front of (and blocking).

I like the potential on the shield bashing. The implications could go either way on it. If you make it so you have to be blocking to get attack procs then you would be pushing a RDMs roll as a tank. If you make the shield bash procs independent of actually blocking, then a RDM doesn't have to be tanking to get the benefit.

Then you have to decide if the shield bashing is about doing DPS/TPing or if it is about utility, aka stunning. I guess it could be both. If this only applies to jobs with Shield Mastery, then I would expect that Bucklers and smaller shields would hit more frequently for better DPS for RDMs and larger shields would hit less frequently, but for significantly more damage for enmity gain for PLDs. You could even give higher ranks of Shield Mastery and heavier shields higher chance to stun to give PLDs some extra utility.


As for the possibility of a passive Cover, I would love it. I throw myself in front of anything that is being attacked that is squishier than me with curing anyways. In a lot of situations, Cure IV doesn't do a lot to actually keep people alive by virtue of HP cured, but because spamming it grabs hate more than a single Cure V or VI. Some days I wish we hadn't been given Tranquil Heart, but other days I'm more than fine with it.

[cidbahamut]

What if they let you break the haste cap if you had a shield on? Pretty much the same idea, but I don't want to put words in your mouth, if that wasn't your implication.
I don't think simply lifting the cap alone would make shield viable. If I recall correctly(seriously, correct me if I'm wrong, I'd like to know), the delay reduction from Dual Wield III is roughly equivalent to an extra 25% haste, plus the bonus from Suppanomimi. So even if wearing a shield removes the cap, you'll have to come up with an additional 30% Haste gear just to break even on delay reduction, and you'll still be missing out on the benefits of the off-hand.

Don't get me wrong, I miss using shields myself but I just don't see it gaining ground beyond incredibly niche setups unless it's complimented with something else.

Unless of course you meant breaking the 80% hard cap, in which case Red Mage would simply become the new zerg machine swinging faster than a Monk with a Kraken Club and Hundred Fists up.

[Greatguardian]

I don't think simply lifting the cap alone would make shield viable. If I recall correctly(seriously, correct me if I'm wrong, I'd like to know), the delay reduction from Dual Wield III is roughly equivalent to an extra 25% haste, plus the bonus from Suppanomimi. So even if wearing a shield removes the cap, you'll have to come up with an additional 30% Haste gear just to break even on delay reduction, and you'll still be missing out on the benefits of the off-hand.

Don't get me wrong, I miss using shields myself but I just don't see it gaining ground beyond incredibly niche setups unless it's complimented with something else.

Unless of course you meant breaking the 80% hard cap, in which case Red Mage would simply become the new zerg machine swinging faster than a Monk with a Kraken Club and Hundred Fists up.

In terms of delay reduction, it's impossible to directly quantify a relation between Dual Wield and Haste because their effects are multiplicative.

If you're assuming 40% Haste (gear+spell), then the comparison looks like:

X = (0.70)(0.6) = 0.42, so it's the equivalent of adding 18% Haste to your previous 40%.

If you're assuming 0% Haste, then DW3 + Suppa is equivalent to 30% Haste.

The best case for Dual Wield from a pure delay standpoint is one where you have no Haste.

However, Dual Wield only increases your TP phase damage while leaving your WS frequency the same. Haste increases both TP phase damage and WS frequency. Therefore, if you had a choice between 30% Dual Wield + 72% Haste and 80% Haste (both of these cap delay reduction), 80% Haste would always be the stronger option.

Dual Wield starts stronger, but ends weaker. If you have access to zerg-tier buffs at all times, then Dual Wielding will actually decrease your overall damage (discounting offhand hits on WS and stats on offhand weaponry, of course).

[cidbahamut]

I learned something today.

[ManaKing]

I learned something today.

Ha me too!


@ GG

So basically if they wanted to get us using shields again they would have to make TP gain the issue, right?

[Greatguardian]

I'm not sure what you're talking about. The only time where it's potentially more beneficial to use a Shield is when you are receiving outside buffs like Marches and Haste Samba, which bring you to delay cap. Then you also have to take into account the stats you're losing on your offhand weapon and the 1.0 fTP loss on WS, plus potential DA/TA procs if it's a natural 1-hit WS.

If they made a shield with Regain +5 Save TP+25 or something like that, then Sword/Shield becomes a lot more attractive. However, you're essentially putting 2 Corsair Rolls on a shield, so I highly doubt anything remotely close to that will be implemented. If anything, I doubt the Devs have any plans to release "DD shields" at all.

Synopsis: It would take either extreme stat buffs on a shield, or extreme outside buffs from your party in order to make single-wielding attractive.

[Lastranger]

Well if any stat i can think of can be aplied to it id probably be something rdm only for single wield purpose

Like :

Manaeater : Active Trait that drain 1% mp too boost Enspell's dmg on evry hit, scaled at increments of 5mp for each tier, each tier would add another doubling off original enspell dmg, so if u got 1000mp total mana pool u get 3x enspell effect on evry swing, a 1500 pool would = 15 mp evry hit meaning u do 4x the original dmg on enspell dmg.
Also it works on spike's spells so evry time they are triggered u loose mana for more dmg scaled just as enspells.
Evry added Trait would add a 0,5% drain, from other gear.

Augement Enspell's : Make all enspells activate under active trait Manaeater on evry hit in exchange for the drained mana, add 2x mana cost on enspell cast in exchange for enspell +10 boost.

Augement Fast cast : Turn active amount Fast cast into 50% magic Haste / 50% Job Ability Haste with a small scale loss off 20% effect in exchange , So if u had 50% Fast cast u would get 20% magic haste / 20% job ability haste.

Augement Defensive spell's : Active under effect of trait Manaeater, Boost Stioneskin/blink/Phalanx/2/Barspell's/Spike's with 50% increase in lenght and effect against 2x mana cost

_____________________________________________________________________

Another Set might have same Trait but other aug's

Manaeater+ (allready described)

Augement Healing : Under effect of manaeater evry healing spell gets boosted by adding double cost to spell.
Double effect for double cost , includes regen Spell's

Occ. Instant cast : Under active trait manaeater will sometimes instantly cast spell's, effect is activated at a base % of 5%, but enanched by amount Fast cast u have in a 1/2 Scaling so if u have 30% fast cast u gain standard 5%+15% from fast cast.
Add's 50% mana cost to instant cast spell, will not work if u have too litle mana to use spell, and will cast normal instead.

Channel Manaeater = healing : Under trait Manaeater channels 1% mp on evry cast too boost healing potency,

_____________________________________________________________________

And a final set could have :

Manaeater : ( explained )

Augement Element magic : Under effect of manaeater evry Elemental spell gets boosted by adding double cost to spell.
Double effect for double cost.

imunity break : Under effect of Manaeater trait, all Detrimental spells like Slow/2/para/silence/bind etc will cost 2x original cost in exchange for posibility to break Imunity of monsters when casting a slow etc, once imunity is broken the spell may or may not take effect depending on monsters elemental resists vs Enfeebling magic skill u posses.
Chance of breaking imunity is at a starter level of 5% + 1% chance for evry 50 Enfeebling skill u posses, and used with Sabotour Doubles ur total % when on.

Channel Manaeater = Elemental : Under trait Manaeater channels 1% mp on evry cast too boost Elemental potency


Of course this is all in the realm of if only they could add this, but i think it would add to the gear makes ur jack of all trades stand out in one job.

[ManaKing]

The only thing that Sword and Shield doesn't completely lose to dual wield in is TP gain. Dual Wield increases DPS by lowering Delay unlike Haste. You hit X% faster with both weapons and gain X% less TP per hit. The result is the TP gain remaining unchanged. Haste is superior to reducing delay, because it increases the frequency of swings without reducing the TP you gain per strike. It actually boosts TP gain over time.

Dual Wield can do things like equip double attack weapons and store TP weapons if they are concerned with increasing TP gain but they would sacrifice the superior Weapons and WSs that make the DPS on Dual Wield so devastating. The point of Dual Wielding every 1H weapon is so you can DPS better. The point of Multi-Hit Crit WSs is to DPS. You can throw them at 100% or 300% TP and get the same result or results that are contrary to having more TP.


The mechanics for Dual Wield usually overpower Sword and Shield on WSs because you always get the offhand hit and offhand stats. For Elemental WSs you don't get an offhand hit for dual wield, but you do get the offhand stats. If the offhand stats can be made up, then there isn't a difference in Dual Wield or Sword and Shield, for Elemental WSs.

What I would like to see for Sword and Shield, is the opposite of dual wield. I would like to see the focus of RDMs being on Spike damage in the form of Elemental WSs, SCs, and MBs that do significantly more damage because of the magical strengths of RDM. You'd never believe it, but I'm a RDM who want to blow stuff up with a magical sword.

RDMs have the potential to do more Elemental WS damage than anyone else in the game. After a couple of years of getting almost nothing but mage gear, RDMs have a large repertoire of MAB, MACC, INT, and MND gear. In the most recent patches, we have gotten some decent TPing gear, but we still aren't going to reach the same DPS as other jobs. We can cap Haste without a Zelus Tiara and we have gotten access to a lot of Double Attack gear + Temper. We can TP at a competent level in melee gear and then switch to mage gear to WS. I already do this for Sanguine Blade and AEdge and it feels great doing it, but I want better.

My point is look at Red Lotus Blade, Seraph Blade, and Uriel Blade. They grow in potency significantly as you gain more TP. I want RDMs next WS to be an Elemental WS with heavy scaling off of mage attributes and TP, that SCs into Light or Darkness. Heavier Hitting WSs = Heavier Hitting SCs. SCs that are actually worth planning means you get to MB more often. MBs make all mages happy, not just RDM.



If I could get exactly what I want for RDM, it would be a magical version of Fencer. Large amounts of TP bonus for elemental WS damage and instead of crit I would want your current enspell to give a degree of Elemental Potency for that element. If you have Enfire up, you get +20% to fire damage, including Elemental WSs and enspells. I doubt Magical RDMs would complain about this either. Also, change the elemental resistance shredding on Enspell 2s to match the same element as the Enspell.

My ideal setup for this is going RDM/SAM. You put on the enspell of the element the mob is weak to. You are lowering their elemental resistance to that elemental while doing full enspell 2 damage that is enhanced by matching elemental potency. You won't pull hate since enspells don't create hate and everyone else's physical numbers should be higher than yours in DPS. You gain 300% TP faster by using Meditate and Store TP. You use Sekkanoki. You use Death Blossom that uses 100% TP to further lower the mobs magical resistance. You have the equivalent of +100TP bonus from Magical Fencer (75% TP bonus in my wildest dreams) and a Moonshade Earring that has TP bonus +25 and 4 MAB. You SC with your new Elemental WS that has awesome TP scaling @300% in your magical WS gear. Your new Elemental WS requires you to have an Enspell active to determine the Element of the WS so it gets the potency bonus from your enspell. You create Light if your enspell is Fire, Wind, or Lightning and Darkness if your Enspell is Earth, Water, or Ice. You use Spontaneity to MB with a Tier IV nuke matching your enspell for extra damage.

If the mob turns at you, you actually get to enjoy having a shield on and having shield mastery to block the mobs attempts to interrupt your spell casting. If it uses a TP move, you use 3rd Eye. If it targets another mage because of their MBs, you stand in the way of them and let your mini cover effect, that was suggested by Seriha, protect that mage. Credit for an Elemental WS that matches your enspell goes to Seriha as well, I believe.

[Greatguardian]

I think you're fundamentally misunderstanding why Dual Wield is effective in the first place. You keep talking about DPS and Spike damage when these terms have been generally considered defunct as separate entities for years.

If you want to look at overall damage, you only have Total damage, TP phase damage, and WS damage.

Dual Wield increases Tp phase damage, does not increase WS damage, and thus increases overall damage.

Haste increases TP phase damage, increases WS damage (frequency), and thus also increases overall damage.

Because gear Haste caps so low, there is no reason not to take the increased TP phase damage from Dual Wield unless you are hitting the Delay Reduction cap from outside sources. I thought I made that much clear.

Even if a shield has the stats of a +3 Str Shamshir on it, you're losing out on the increased TP phase damage from Dual Wield by equipping it while your WS damage remains the same or less (depending on the nature of the WS, offhand hit, etc).

It is patently incorrect to say that there is no difference between one sword and two when you disregard the stats and the offhand hits on WS.

I realize you have some sort of dream, and frankly that's fine. You do what makes you happy. If you want to use a shield, go use a shield. But I don't think you're comprehending just how much would need to be done in order to make Shields competitive with dual wielding from a damage standpoint.

[ManaKing]

Agreed that total damage is what we are looking at. RDMs total damage, regardless of offhand, is low. Most of the reason that is the case is because the job was destined to fail at DPS because it doesn't have the skills, job traits/abilities, or WSs to be considered a good DPS. Increasing WS damage would be increasing total damage. Giving RDM the tools to increase their total damage is what we are talking about, or at least I am. Agreed, currently, a shield is the complete opposite of that idea, but I'm hoping that can change.

I understand what you are saying by "Dual Wield increases Tp phase damage, does not increase WS damage, and thus increases overall damage." You clearly cover what i'm saying in the rest of what you say and I have no disagreements with it. And yes, I understand that Dual Wield is only a detriment to your TP gain in the case of capped delay from outside sources. I'm not saying that this would be some kind of work around for that, just that there are areas where you could improve shields so that the gap wouldnt have to be so large. One of the areas that could be worked on is the availability of more haste, but that doesn't have to be the only answer.

I do realize what a large improvement would have to be made to shields. They are grossly inadequate in the present state of the game. I'm well aware RDM hasn't been given anything but negligence for a long time, much like shields on anyone else but a PLD. So my question is, what area can a RDM grow to overcome the state that it is in, while keeping its identity as a job? What I came up with is taking a whole bunch of negatives that are on the job and somehow making them positive.

I asked the question about what would be needed to make you want to put a shield on because I wanted to hear people's ideas. I generally like everything that comes out of you, but i think we are both aware that you and I don't play the same. But the funny thing is, I'm pretty sure we both value magical damage and job flexibility or else we would both be playing something else. I doubt either of us will give up RDM anytime soon, either. So I, personally, want to make sure that RDM turns into something cool that both of us can enjoy.

I hope both of us can appreciate the idea of elemental potency being more readily available outside of Aby.

P.S. I think outside of the box on RDM because the Box it lives inside is currently very broken. I completely realize that half of what I come up with is not even remotely acceptable by common standards. I appreciate the discussions though. They are fun. I also miss SCs and MBs. Would be nice if they came back.