Temper, Do you like it?

[ManaKing]

I do. It works really well with my Double Attack +10% Khanda+2.

[saevel]

Yes I like Temper. Originally it sucked (static 5%) but I'm glad SE actually listened to player feedback and made it scale with Enhancing Magic.

Now get ready for the hateraid in 3 .... 2 .... 1...

[Neisan_Quetz]

Get a Str/Dex shamshir that is all etc.

[Kitkat]

It's a nice spell that adds to the melee aspects of rdm where the amount of DA% gear was limited prior. Scaling is up to par now also and I'm glad it is self target only due to this scaling change. Prior to the change I wouldn't have seen a problem letting it be cast on others, but now.....

Sadly, I half expect a temperga or similar spell to come out for sch or whm by 99 cap. SE loves to make a job think it is special with a spell then toss a pie at your face by allowing other jobs do the same thing.

[Neisan_Quetz]

In this case, that would be Smn with Ifrit's Ward if someone got Temperga.

Of course Smn should be used to most of their AoE buffs being used by other jobs in one way or another.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

It's a nice spell that adds to the melee aspects of rdm where the amount of DA% gear was limited prior. Scaling is up to par now also and I'm glad it is self target only due to this scaling change. Prior to the change I wouldn't have seen a problem letting it be cast on others, but now.....

Sadly, I half expect a temperga or similar spell to come out for sch or whm by 99 cap. SE loves to make a job think it is special with a spell then toss a pie at your face by allowing other jobs do the same thing.

It's coming for WHM 99... I'm calling it now.

[Soranika]

In this case, that would be Smn with Ifrit's Ward if someone got Temperga.

Of course Smn should be used to most of their AoE buffs being used by other jobs in one way or another.Ifrit kinda already does that (sorta) with Avatar Favor active. Of course, what SMN really wants to use Avatar Favor?

[ManaKing]

Get a Str/Dex shamshir that is all etc.

Idk, I'm around 33% Double Attack and Climbing. When dual wielding, i usually attack 3 times a round. I'm not seeing how fewer Double Attacks is going to hurt my DPS or my WSs.

[saevel]

Idk, I'm around 33% Double Attack and Climbing. When dual wielding, i usually attack 3 times a round. I'm not seeing how fewer Double Attacks is going to hurt my DPS or my WSs.

DA experiences decreasing returns the more you get, but so does fSTR and ratio (after 1.0).
1.33/1.23 = 1.081, 8.1% increase for the additional 10% DA.

It's situational really.

[ManaKing]

I would have to agree. It does get affected by diminishing returns.

I've seen people speak poorly about the Double Attack Khanda before in favor of the STR/DEX Sham, but I'm still not convinced. The damage is higher for Khanda at +3 and the delay is longer. The slower delay just means that you get more TP out of Store TP and Double Attack Procs.

I like the Double Attack because it can make multi-hit WSs do significantly more damage at lower TP and you can get there faster because you are building TP faster. Also, every double attack can be an additional 27~ enspell damage, while not WSing.

[Neisan_Quetz]

DA Khanda lost to Str Shamshir at 90 enspell damage is not enough to make up the difference, the high delay on the DA Khanda really is what makes it worse than the Shamshirs (This is assuming DW3). Also Assuming you weren't capping attack. If accuracy was uncapped, Dex Shamshir easily won.

[ManaKing]

But does that really make up for TP loss?

Also, any idea how much enspell damage would have to go up to make more attacks better than just pushing up STR and DEX?

[Neisan_Quetz]

What TP loss? Shamshirs are the faster weapon. The attack per rounds is pretty close regardless, and Str Shamshir was ~5% ahead in overall damage assuming uncapped attack at 90.

You'd have to explain exactly what you're trying to compare for that question.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

What TP loss? Shamshirs are the faster weapon. The attack per rounds is pretty close regardless, and Str Shamshir was ~5% ahead in overall damage assuming uncapped attack at 90.

You'd have to explain exactly what you're trying to compare for that question.

I would assume they mean the loss of 10% Double Attack. Otherwise, I'm not sure.

[ManaKing]

Well when a weapon has a longer delay, it generates more TP. Khanda generates 0.5% more TP than a Shamshir by virtue of it's longer delay. With Store TP being % based, the more Store TP you have, the greater this difference becomes.

When you double attack, you are increasing the rate at which you generate TP because double attack increases the number of strikes per round without affecting how long that round takes.

The TP loss I'm talking about is the difference between having a double attack Khanda vs a Shamshir as your offhand.

[Neisan_Quetz]

It's ignorable becuase the DA% on the Khanda is offset by its higher delay. Average rounds to 100TP is close on both. The Shamshir is just the better offhand most of the time.

[ManaKing]

Is the possibility of more double attacks on WS not attractive you?

I mean that is honestly 1/2 the reason I wanted it. 33% Double attack means on 3 hit weapons skills (Death Blossom and CDC) you are likely to get at least 1 additional attack out of it.

[Kitkat]

Hmm, being a almace/mandau rdm/nin I like the more attacks in X amount of time over the slightly higher chance to get extra hits during WS, but that is also a rare combination to have. It is also a substantially lower overall delay difference also making it much more feasible.

Even without that option though I'd probably use a shamsir over khanda since the slightly higher change to DA in WS wouldn't be enough to turn me away from the fstr+pdif of the str shamshir :x The tp gain difference is too small in short term difference to outweigh shamsir, and the delay is just...awful.

[Crimson_Slasher]

I like temper honestly, but havent gotten to play with it enough yet.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Overall damage is what matters, not doing slightly more damage on WS.

If acc is high / attack uncapped with DW3, STR Shamshir wins. If acc falls fairly low, Dex Shamshir wins. If acc and attack are near capped, DA Khanda barely pulls ahead. If using Dw2 (I never bother with /dnc anymore so I don't consider this) DA Khanda is close to STR Sahmshir.

EDIT: Not that much changed at 95 but I'll redo calcs on it later since old laptop is still down.

[ManaKing]

Overall damage is what matters, not doing slightly more damage on WS.

If acc is high / attack uncapped with DW3, STR Shamshir wins. If acc falls fairly low, Dex Shamshir wins. If acc and attack are near capped, DA Khanda barely pulls ahead. If using Dw2 (I never bother with /dnc anymore so I don't consider this) DA Khanda is close to STR Sahmshir.

EDIT: Not that much changed at 95 but I'll redo calcs on it later since old laptop is still down.

Lol not surprising, that probably very little has changed at 95 or that you don't even try to use /DNC. I can't stand it after playing /NIN.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Left gear the same, even the stp-3 on Eurus isn't a large hit.

Shamshir +3 averages 6.511 rounds to 100, Khanda +3 6.179 (had tyrant's ring on...).

+3 Str Shamshir is roughly 4% ahead of DA Khanda +3 at 95 in overall damage barring accuracy issues (inside). Atmas is RR/SS/Apoc.

Outside it's still behind by roughly 5% unless I added wrong.

[ManaKing]

You would want the Eurus anyways because they are what you would want so it's completely valid.

In a scenario where you wanted to Build 300% TP for a WS that did significantly more damage at 300%, would you think it would work out better? (Completely Hypothetical unless we get a good Elemental WS)

[Neisan_Quetz]

Hard to say since there really isn't any weaponskill like that... the closest I think would be like AEdge and TP bonus offhand. Most WS that do more with TP bonus typically do well enough at 200% imo.

[ManaKing]

Pretty good point. I have no idea what WSs are coming for us. But i hope some of them are actually interesting. Some of the game mechanics are getting a little too predictable.

I don't want them to throw everything else out, but when is the last time someone was excited about getting anything besides a multi-hit chance to crit varies with TP WS, outside of aby for brew?

[Ketaru]

Yes. I like Temper. I like it a lot. I'd like it even more if it were Accessionable...

Area of Effect Double Attack increase wouldn't suddenly fix RDM. But it would be a hell of a start. Melee RDMs got what they want. Mage RDMs will get what they want. Everybody wins! But apparently not...

[saevel]

Yes. I like Temper. I like it a lot. I'd like it even more if it were Accessionable...

Area of Effect Double Attack increase wouldn't suddenly fix RDM. But it would be a hell of a start. Melee RDMs got what they want. Mage RDMs will get what they want. Everybody wins! But apparently not...

That would forever lock us to /SCH, although not always a bad thing as /SCH is our best mage mode support SJ. I would of preferred if Temper was aoe like barspells. No need to be locked into a single sub, not screwing with cycles, and still giving everyone a boost.

Manaking, unfortunately people who don't actually play the WAR side of RDM have no idea that it's not always about maximum damage and we can switch out weapons out mid fight if need be. Numbers done at 90 showed both the STR / DEX / DA+10 weapons winning depending on the assumptions you chose to use. If your attack is capped or near cap then the DA pretty much wins vs the others, unfortunately RDM tends to hurt the most in attack so you'll see the STR sword as the highest damage one most of the time. Similarly the DEX one tends to be the weakest due to acc being ridiculously easy to cap now. I would go with the DA inside abyssea or vs anything not VWNM.