Square Enix, my love. Help us come out of the closet.

[Edyth]

Somewhere out there, there are 95 RDMs and SCHs have WHM at a decent level.

But in order to play anything besides WHM, these SCHs and RDMs have to strip their WHMs naked and keep them in the Mog House, away from prying eyes.

Because if anyone knows you have WHM, you'll never play SCH or RDM.

So we've been told that the developers want WHM to be the best healer, and no one else can have Cure V. WHM is the best. It's so damn good at healing that it's the only thing people want you to play.

It also doesn't help that WHM has yellow proc spells that SCH and RDM lack, which just compounds SCH's and RDM's inferiority as job choices.

Keep WHM the best. Maybe introduce some job trait that gives it a great advantage for aspects other than pure HP healing. Or maybe a spell. Esuna II, perhaps, which should function much more practically, not requiring anything except the MP to cast it, and not self target only.

But SCH and RDM need something to heal better. The fact is that HP is vital. Weather statuses and helix spells are nice bonuses, and, well... RDM's formerly exclusive and very lucrative spells are available to subjobs now. Besides I guess Phalanx II, but WHM's curing muscle makes up for the lack of that spell. But HP is needed to play, and the point is that SCH and RDM serve nearly no necessary purpose in FFXI anymore.

Just please make it so if someone says, "I have SCH, RDM, and WHM, which do you want?" the party leader says "Come as your best geared, come as your favorite, come as SCH, come as RDM, all three of those jobs can do what we need" instead of just "WHM plzzzzzzzz"

EDIT:
If you absolutely don't want FFXI to have 3 viable healers:
Give SCH Haste and it affected by accession. Give RDM Haste II.
Stop giving away RDM's spells (Phalanx, Addle, for example).
Adloquium II for SCH, and make it at least 3 TP per tick.
Give RDM a spell that DIRECTLY restores MP. Holy crap, this job is saved!
Give SCH a spell that DIRECTLY bestows TP, and has a decent recast, maybe 20 seconds, affected by Accession and Rapture. Maybe 20 TP without Rapture, 40 TP with Rapture.

I don't know, anything, as long as it's amazing. If you don't want RDM and SCH to be great healers, you need to make us totally, 150% badass at something else so that people will notice and want SCH and RDM.

[Dfoley]

Add an affluent solstice for each job;

Whm - adds stoneskin
Rdm - adds blink shadows (1 shadow for c1, 4 shadows for c4, doesn't stack with blink or utsusemi)
Sch - Adds dread spikes (c1 1 hit dread spike, c4 adds 4 hits of dread spikes)

Blamo all three are useful again and whm still cures the most

[Cljader1]

Add an affluent solstice for each job;

Whm - adds stoneskin
Rdm - adds blink shadows (1 shadow for c1, 4 shadows for c4, doesn't stack with blink or utsusemi)
Sch - Adds dread spikes (c1 1 hit dread spike, c4 adds 4 hits of dread spikes)

Blamo all three are useful again and whm still cures the most


Sorry Dreadspikes should be drk only sir....with that being said I think SE should just give rdm and sch cure V

[Aikagi]

This subject has always been a tricky one. Not too many years ago there were threads from whm complaining about how useless they were in comparison to RDM. The attitude then was that Cure IV was plenty to keep the group up, and RDM had additional spells that WHM did not.

Balance is something that is difficult to achieve with certain jobs, though I do agree with Dfoley's post. Give each of them something really really good that when combined makes an awesome set up.

[Seiowan]

I'd much rather they focus Red Mages and Scholar's in different areas besides healing. They can be strong and useful jobs, but only if SE gives meaning to their primary role.

Red Mage's are the masters of enfeebling and enhancing magic. Give them powerful and UNIQUE enfeebles which are truly noticeable. Make them desirable as enfeeble masters. Give them Job Abilities which enhance party buffs and unique bonuses which people want.

Scholar is a darned tricky one to balance because they're very powerful in their own way. They're capable black mages, though lacking in capacity to cast Ancient Magic or area effect nukes, and through the use of Rapture they're the second most powerful healer in the game, capable of 700hp+ cures in Abyssea. Though not currently on par with a white mage, this does mean giving them Cure V would effectively give them stronger heals than white mages are capable of (We're talking 1350 Cure V's if geared properly).

That said, they get Regens sooner than WHM, so perhaps more can be done with those. Give Scholar a powerful Refresh spell which allows them to substitute heal. No more of this measly 40hp/tick. We should be seeing upwards of 80-100 hp per tick at least for this high powered Regen. It needs to be strong enough to absorb your average melee hits as well as recover the targets HP. As a caveat, the duration could be reduced from normal regens. Just not so much that it becomes a hassle to cast.

Cure V is still WHM's ace in the hole when it comes to heals. Cure VI is just a pretty spell, with few applications besides waiting on cooldown timer for Cure V. While it does restore more HP, the cost is fairly prohibitive outside of Abyssea, even with Light Arts active, and Cure V is more than capable of performing the same task at a much lower cost. WHM might have the lion's share of abilities to enhance curing, but players are quick to overlook these when there's a slew of other more versatile jobs with the same spells.

I don't envy the developers who have to keep these things in balance. It's a tough job.

[Byrth]

WHM's advantages over RDM+SCH:
Cure 5/6
Curaga spell line
Afflatus Solace/Misery
Esuna
Sacrifice
Auspice
Divine Benison
Easy to cap Cure Potency and plenty of access to Cure Cast Time


Even if you give RDM and SCH Cure V, WHM will still be the best healer. Also, I don't see SCH as competitive with WHM. I see them as competitive with BLM. If I were redesigning the jobs...

SCH : Stronger as a magical DD. Even stronger in alliances where you're relying on magic damage.
* Every Enhancing Magic in the game would stack with Accession.
* Having an active Helix of the proper element would increase the damage dealt by that element's magic, say +20%. So you put on Noctohelix and then cast Klaustrum. You put on Cryohelix and cast Blizzard V, etc.


RDM : The meleeburn friendly Healer. If you need a White Mage, you need a White Mage. If you can get by with just a Red Mage, you'll kill faster.
* Enspells, Barspells, Gain, and Temper can be cast on single party members.
* Enspell IIs would proc on all hits of the round instead of only the first.
* Temper would be stronger.

[Dfoley]

Sorry Dreadspikes should be drk only sir....with that being said I think SE should just give rdm and sch cure V

Herka derka. Then make it just cure spikes without the agro loss. Drks get so butt hurt...

My blm automaton has it, so wouldnt be suprised to see blm get it at 99 as well.

[Merton9999]

I agree with the OP. RDM and SCH just need something, anything that makes them valuable to a group. It doesn't have to be a boring Cure V concession, that's just the easy fix and one I wouldn't mind these days given how the other attempts to make theses jobs unique have gone.

I want to be able to play a variety of mage jobs, not just two.

The problem is no matter how much they try to make RDM buff melee and SCH buff mages or whatever in the line of buffs, you always run into it being better just to bring 2xBLM or 2xWHM instead of a SCH or RDM in their place. SCH and RDM buffs to melee and mages need to be significant, in the line of brokenness with tier 2 storm spells, Haste 2 and Accesionable Haste. Not these paltry practical joke spells like Animus and Adloquium.


* Having an active Helix of the proper element would increase the damage dealt by that element's magic, say +20%. So you put on Noctohelix and then cast Klaustrum. You put on Cryohelix and cast Blizzard V, etc.

I like this a lot. It gives more utility to these spells that are often hard to justify due to how fast mobs die when you actually want to damage them now. I'd make this enhancement SCH only though, since these spells will be subbable soon.

[Alhanelem]

I endorse the OP's message wholeheartedly. Their stance about WHM and RDM / SCH really needs to change. It's true that WHMs probably felt neglected for a while at one point, but really it's no longer an issue for them.

I'll be honest, this thread isn't what I expected it to be when I first saw the thread title. I imagine I'm not the only one...:eek:

[Juri_Licious]

RDM and SCH do need something. WHM is pretty much the only useful healer at the moment.

[svengalis]

All they have to do is make rdm enfeebles actually stick again. SCH, I never saw the point in that job.

[Xellith]

if anyone knows you have WHM, you'll never play SCH or RDM.

Have a guy in my ls who comes SCH to embrava the bejebus outta stuff among other things like triggers or AOE cleaving.

[Soranika]

I had hoped to retire WHM when I left my endgame shell but the moment people see you with it and no other "useful" job, you're stuck on it. Even when I'm among friends in my current social ls, when we do stuff in abyssea, it's WHM onry.

I leveled SCH because I was wholeheartedly interested in the job but didn't want to level BLM but I soon retired it cause I couldn't justify getting like three inventories worth of equipment when no one asks me to play it.

[tyrantsyn]

After reading the opening paragraph of the OP, all I could see was Susan Sarandon holding up 2 poor down and out Taru's one RDM one SCH dirty and malnourished, in tattered af3. With tears running down there faces.

[Siiri]

All they have to do is make rdm enfeebles actually stick again. SCH, I never saw the point in that job.

Agree with this. Scholar has been a balance headache and should never have been introduced. It already steps way too much on black mage, scholars need to leave white mage alone.

[Selzak]

This subject has always been a tricky one. Not too many years ago there were threads from whm complaining about how useless they were in comparison to RDM.
That's because SE has done a very poor job of being creative enough to define a role for each job. RDMs and SCHs need a higher tier Cure spell because SE has bored them into being healers instead of making them into something unique and useful in their own right. This is also why all of the melee jobs have always been so unbalanced- they end up being nothing more than melee jobs, so some are better than others while the 'others' are just not as good and offer nothing else meaningful to 99% of the game.

WAR- Deals damage.
MNK- See WAR.
DRK- See WAR.
DRG- See WAR.
SAM- See WAR. (also good on HNMs). :has its own role
WHM- Keeps people alive.
RDM- See WHM.
SCH- See WHM.
BLM- Deals magic damage. :has its own role
SMN- See BLM.
NIN- Tanks with evasion. :has its own role
THF- See NIN.
PLD- Tanks rare stuff NIN can't. :has its own role

We've got like, three maybe four different roles and a shit ton of jobs to fill those few rolls- and the only difference is that some are better than others. What's RDM? Well, it's a bad WHM with Refresh. What's DRK? Well, it's a bad WAR with Stun.

[Keinn]

I don't think RDM or SCH needs to learn Cure V to shine, they are great jobs to play as they are.

[Monchat]

So. What about their intention of making RDM able to turn melee into demi god lol ( RDM job manifesto..)

[tyrantsyn]

So. What about their intention of making RDM able to turn melee into demi god lol ( RDM job manifesto..)

that was a great joke i'm still laughing about. Not inless they lift the band on the accessiona~able spells, IDK how SE intends to make this happen. My only guess is that maybe there's some more spells out there we just haven't seen yet or at some point SE plans to allow RDM to accession stuff like Refresh II, Temper and the Gain line of spells. I know one thing for sure, Phalanx II needs to be fix like yesterday.

[Soranika]

So. What about their intention of making RDM able to turn melee into demi god lol ( RDM job manifesto..)
Honestly, I wouldn't mind if RDM returned to the pre-75+, army-of-one status.

[Nakts]

if you want debuff/buff jobs to be strong again they need to make fights last longer than 30 seconds

[Merton9999]

Agree with this. Scholar has been a balance headache and should never have been introduced. It already steps way too much on black mage, scholars need to leave white mage alone.

Then I would expect the same sentiment toward MNK, DRG, SAM and RNG. Why have so many DD classes when you have WAR? I assume SE was thinking along the same lines I do - variety is fun. I've never understood the job prejudice and jealousy. I'd welcome 10 new nuking classes if they were added tomorrow. As long as they filled the same role in a different and interesting way, and were as potent as BLM.

The "different" and "as potent" are the hard parts, the ones SE seems to be having a tough time with for SCH. So many weird 75-90 additions, of which I liked the uniqueness part, but am not a fan of them being lemons in terms of making the job a viable alternative to yet another boring night on WHM or BLM. Kaustra and Embrava have been fun, I just don't know how long gearing up the job for 12.5 minutes at a time will hold my interest. Oh well, there are a lot of fun games coming out soon.

[Alhanelem]

That's because SE has done a very poor job of being creative enough to define a role for each job.that's not really true at all. There simply aren't 20 different roles in an MMO- there's only 3-5 archtypes depending on who you talk to. If you have more than 3-5 classes, there is going to be some role overlap.

Once you get past one class for each role, it becomes executing those roles with different styles / feels (e.g. spike damage theme, damage over time theme, healing with magic, healing with JAs, blood tanking, evasion tanking, etc). SE has done a perfectly fine job of giving you a choice as to how you do your damage or support your party, etc. Balancing them ideally is another matter, but it's a never-ending struggle.

[Shadowsong]

Why would your friends force you to come a job you do not want? Would they say you are not able to come to the event if you said you did not want to come WHM? If they did, might be time to find a new circle of ffxi buddies.
I see a lot of "unfair" being thrown around, and I'm confused why. Why is it unfair the game has 1 high tier healer? It should make no difference unless you are physically in love with your RDM or SCH.
All this talk of SCH being compared to WHM in the first place is a little misplaced, it should be compared to BLM if anything.

Is a monster so hard we need constant huge cures? come whm
Is a monster not so hard that we only need spot cures with time for buffs/debuffs? come rdm

I'm not sure why it should be such an issue to just come WHM to things. This game's paradigm seems to be changing every 6 months now, who knows what the balancing situation will be at 99.
I went on a search to find the WHM bitching thread on BG about how Overpowered RDM were back in ToAU times, but it eluded me. Suffice it to say, everyone is on the bottom end of the balance stick at some point, RDM just went 7 years before it happend.

[MarkovChain]

Curaga spell line
Afflatus Solace/Misery
Esuna
Sacrifice
Auspice
Divine Benison

Even if you give RDM and SCH Cure V, WHM will still be the best healer.

No because the moment you give it to RDM it becomes an infinite MP-pool mage that can heal with the best spell. Cure VI is 100% useless on everything outside aby and even cure V if maxed is often wasted. Except devine besison, everything you mentioned was available at 75 and people prefered RDM (generally). Now that you have 12+ tick refresh you are invulnerable and RDM willl be preferred because they have other helpfull spells (sleep line, debuff lines etc). A WHM/RDM is about as useful as a RDM/WHM if RDM had cure V basically, with the benefit that RDM buffs last 5 minutes+ so yeah... RDM would be definately preferred.

This is a dead end for SE. The moment they give c5 to RDM people will prefer rdm at least for parties or less. On the good side it would mean the cure pot gear from VW would be useful. They won't do it though, because you would have a army of raging QQ complaining that RDM is again the best job. So RDM is bound to stay the useless job it is right now together with SCH and CORs. Even PUP have cure V & VI lol.

[saevel]

that was a great joke i'm still laughing about. Not inless they lift the band on the accessiona~able spells, IDK how SE intends to make this happen. My only guess is that maybe there's some more spells out there we just haven't seen yet or at some point SE plans to allow RDM to accession stuff like Refresh II, Temper and the Gain line of spells. I know one thing for sure, Phalanx II needs to be fix like yesterday.

Poorly translated manifesto. It was talking about the RDM making themselves into demigods and supporting the party through enfeebling the monster. Everyone who doesn't speak Japanese though SE was going to give RDM party buffs when really they were going to give RDM more self-cast buffs.

RDM is a WHM-1 BLM -1 WAR -1~3 (Almace or not) rolled into a single job. It can play mini-WHM, mini-BLM or mini-WAR depending on how you gear it and which sub you roll with. Due to there being a metric f*ck ton of melee's and not enough healers guess which aspect everyone got lazer focused on? Didn't help that Healing Magic practically means nothing for cures, the C- in healing magic wasn't much of a deterrent from Cure IV spamming.

[Luvbunny]

OK, you wanna save those two jobs - but SE being boneheaded and refuse to give SCH and RDM access to Cure 5 - well, I have some ideas - if the developers are smart enough they will implement it.

RDM + SCH:
- Give Banish, Banishga, Flash and Holy spells to both RDM and SCH. WHM got addle and pretty much all spells that are RDM and SCH exclusive, it is time these other jobs get WHM spells as well that is NOT Cure V. Problems solved, both jobs can now do WHM procs in abyssea.
- Raise cap on hp cured via Cure 4 by 30%. It won't beat Cure 5 but at least it would help a little.

RDM only
- Give RDM enhancing spell that can be casted to party members that will mitigate magic damage taken by 15%-25% depending on enhancing skills, last 90 seconds with recast of 2 mnts. This will make RDM the tank best friend and a must have in Voidwatch.
- Boost Phalanx 2 damage reduction to 30% decaying over time to 5% similar to what Dancer has and Alexander summon.
- Boost additional damage to Enspell Tier 1 by a higher margin to deal 40-60 damage decaying over time similar to Endark and Enlight. Make damage deal higher to a mob that is weak to the element - hence the varying number. This can be AOE party member via SCH sub.
- Give RDM a spell that raise magic accuracy by 20 points castable to party members. This will make RDM a must have for nuker party and can sub Bard for seal farming party.
- Give Rdm a self enhancing spell that raise cure potency by 25% last 3 mnts and make this spell castable to any party members, SCH already have Rapture. This will solve Cure 5 problem. You can also make this as a job ability.
- Give flee type of spells to RDM, similar to what Dancer, Smn and Bard already has. This can be AOE party member via SCH sub.
- Adjust the tier 2 merit spells to actually be MORE potent than the regular spells and work VS NM almost 90% of the time.

SCH
- Make weather spells to mitigate magic damage with the same element.
- Add magic attack bonus to Stormsurge, fully merited will grant you a total of +8 magic attack bonus to the matching spell with the same weather.
- Boost damage with weather spells to magic with the same element, and also raise magic accuracy as well, this will help RDM to be able to land all those enfeeble spells more successfully.

They just did massive update with SCH two hours ability so this job is good with the additions of update ideas above.

Now RDM can be the MASTER of enhancing spells and can help a great deal mitigating magic and physical damage and be a great support for WHM. SCH now can be a support job to WHM, RDM, BLM and all the melees and yet still a potent nuker or healer depending on which arts.

[Byrth]

No because the moment you give it to RDM it becomes an infinite MP-pool mage that can heal with the best spell. Cure VI is 100% useless on everything outside aby and even cure V if maxed is often wasted. Except devine besison, everything you mentioned was available at 75 and people prefered RDM (generally). Now that you have 12+ tick refresh you are invulnerable and RDM willl be preferred because they have other helpfull spells (sleep line, debuff lines etc). A WHM/RDM is about as useful as a RDM/WHM if RDM had cure V basically, with the benefit that RDM buffs last 5 minutes+ so yeah... RDM would be definately preferred.

This is a dead end for SE. The moment they give c5 to RDM people will prefer rdm at least for parties or less. On the good side it would mean the cure pot gear from VW would be useful. They won't do it though, because you would have a army of raging QQ complaining that RDM is again the best job. So RDM is bound to stay the useless job it is right now together with SCH and CORs. Even PUP have cure V & VI lol.

People preferred RDM for meleeburn stuff where you didn't need serious healing at 75. If you were going to do something more serious, you brought a WHM. The gap in %refresh between the two jobs is smaller than it ever has been. WHM has Convert, etc. RDM isn't that much more MP efficient than WHM at this point, considering they lack WHM's AF3+2 pants and Cureskin. Basically, I don't think your first paragraph is a valid because WHM/RDM is already about as MP efficient as RDM/WHM.

Also, I didn't advocate giving RDM Cure V. SE has said "no" enough times that I consider it off the table. Cure IV is sufficient for most old events that people lowman, though.

[Manicora]

Simple junk... lol Whm is the only main line healer Rdm Brd and SCH are Support type jobs as in Aid other jobs to perform better, Same reason why SMN is not a Main healer job It has no Cure spell.. infact smn/whm still cant break 500 hp back... whats your best as Rdm or sch? not enough even with best gear set ups.
Quityabitchn and level whm

[Neisan_Quetz]

... What? Smn/whm should easily be breaking 500 hp cured on C4 with capped cure potency.

[Leonlionheart]

I think everyone but BLU can cap cure potency now (in terms of actual healers) so you should be able to hit 600+ Cure IV's fairly easily, (BLU should be able to hit 700 plenuline, maybe even 700 magic fruits with the right gears) that's more than enough to cure most people out of the danger zone in VW on most mobs. It's more than enough in all old endgame, so Cure V is becoming less and less important.

The only really unfortunate part is how much Enmity you can get from Cure IV, how much -cure casting time WHM has, and of course the fact that no matter what you do, SCH, RDM, and SMN will never be useful in Abyssea.

[Leonlionheart]

Like I've said before, and SE seems to have taken something away from this, is boost Regen on SCH (Suggested a Helix type regen spell, maybe @99?) and give RDM something worthwhile in terms of cure. Maybe stances, one for nukes that also inflicts some sort of small debuff corresponding to the element, one for cures that give cures some form of a haste samba effect, where you get a small amount of JA or even magic haste for your next hit.

Simply put, the jobs need things that separate them from WHM, yet still make it worth trying to cure on those jobs. BLU has it(most MP efficent, barring +2 leg use on WHM, cure and Attack/MAB on another cure), but RDM and SCH don't?

[Mirage]

Add an affluent solstice for each job;

Whm - adds stoneskin
Rdm - adds blink shadows (1 shadow for c1, 4 shadows for c4, doesn't stack with blink or utsusemi)
Sch - Adds dread spikes (c1 1 hit dread spike, c4 adds 4 hits of dread spikes)

Blamo all three are useful again and whm still cures the most

Good concept, but 4 shadows from cure 4 is too strong. 1 shadow for cure 1 and 2, two shadows from cure 3 and 4 sounds better. You gotta remember that these shadows are still free, and require no extra cast time.

For Sch, i would suggest a slight -DT% instead of dread spikes -10% DT (ignores the normal -50% cap). for 10 seconds after a cure 4 would be cool.

[Xantavia]

Why don't we just make Cure5 a conditional spell for rdm and sch. It has its cap DECREASED if it is in a party with 5 other DD jobs. No matter what the playerbase says, I see a return to the ToAU era if rdm gets cure5 without any sort of restrictions.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Who is making TaU style parties anymore...?

[Mirage]

Missing the point. He's saying no one would invite WHMs anymore, RDM only.

[Neisan_Quetz]

You have some pretty bad Whms if they can't keep MP up in this day and age tbh.

[Luvbunny]

If Rdm and Sch has access to all the white magic proc of Whms, they will be invited again to abyssea activities. Regardless with Cure 5 or not. They only reasons they are being left out is the proc - BLM and WHM do it much better and bring more to the small party while SCH and RDM at their current state now feels like dead weight and waste slots in party. The procs are what killing those two jobs - same can be said to a few other melee jobs in the game (ranger, dark knight, corsair, etc..)

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Simple junk... lol Whm is the only main line healer Rdm Brd and SCH are Support type jobs as in Aid other jobs to perform better, Same reason why SMN is not a Main healer job It has no Cure spell.. infact smn/whm still cant break 500 hp back... whats your best as Rdm or sch? not enough even with best gear set ups.
Quityabitchn and level whm

WHM is a mule job, slitting my wrists would be more entertaining than actually using WHM as a main job.

[Scribble]

I'm curious why people would want SCH and RDM to have healing on par with WHM?

Yes, you might be invited to abyssea events, but you'll still be pigeon-holed into the same role as you would if you were on WHM. You also have to keep in mind the balance of jobs. If SCH and RDM could heal on par with WHM then they'd have to take a hit elsewhere.

I'd much rather see something new or different that follows the intended role of SCH and RDM and keeps the identity of WHM, the primary healing job, intact.

[Alhanelem]

I'm curious why people would want SCH and RDM to have healing on par with WHM?Because anything less just isn't good enough anymore, that's why. Cure IV blows chunks. Giving SCH and/or RDM and/or PLD Cure V wouldn't suddenly make them the best healers. They'd simply still be able to perform to an acceptable standard, with their own strengths and weaknesses.

[Shadowsong]

I'm curious why people would want SCH and RDM to have healing on par with WHM?

This is exactly what I ask myself everytime I see these tgreads? Why do you want 3 WHM jobs in the game? If you want to play WHM, play whm. If you wanna play rdm or sch, play rdm or sch; not some wish-i-was-whm job.

People argue cure 5 wouldnt make rdm and sch better healers than whm. Than why give it to them? If you need a healer, bring Whm, why would you want to bring a sub par healer?

[Neisan_Quetz]

Both jobs have little purpose as it stands. Hard content - Bring a Whm, Weak Content - Still bring a Whm and have it /thf for TH for instance etc., Sch/Blm is useful for crowd control, Nothing warrants bringing a Rdm atm. People keep saying if Rdm was a good enough healer Whm would get bumped, but the reverse happened - Whm is a better enhancer and good enough enfeebler (since most of them either are resisted or don't make a large enough impact to matter in the long run since you can win without them) that Rdm isn't needed.

Fix Cure 4's formula since they're so dead set against Cure V, Fix enfeebles landing on harder NMs, fix Phalanx's formula... that's all I want really.

And make Gravity land against shit made in the last 3 years...

[Edyth]

This is exactly what I ask myself everytime I see these tgreads? Why do you want 3 WHM jobs in the game? If you want to play WHM, play whm. If you wanna play rdm or sch, play rdm or sch; not some wish-i-was-whm job.

People argue cure 5 wouldnt make rdm and sch better healers than whm. Than why give it to them? If you need a healer, bring Whm, why would you want to bring a sub par healer?

Your post is completely ignorant. The point of this topic is that SCH and RDM need to be more useful.

[Shadowsong]

Your post is completely ignorant. The point of this topic is that SCH and RDM need to be more useful.

Sigh, people on the internet...
And I say you are ignorant saying RDM and SCH aren't useful, see how useless it is to say stuff like that? Contribute to the discussion please...

SCH and RDM are not WHM and shouldn't be made into half-whm-wannabes, do I need to spell it out even clearer for you?

edit: and no, this is another rdm/sch "i want cure 5" whine thread

[Juri_Licious]

Sigh, people on the internet...
And I say you are ignorant saying RDM and SCH aren't useful, see how useless it is to say stuff like that? Contribute to the discussion please...

SCH and RDM are not WHM and shouldn't be made into half-whm-wannabes, do I need to spell it out even clearer for you?

edit: and no, this is another rdm/sch "i want cure 5" whine thread

...I guess "Red Mage" user of both Black and White Magic and "Scholar" user of Dark Arts and Light Arts mean nothing to you?

I don't even have these jobs leveled and I already think it's absurd they don't have Cure V at least. It's like only having one tank in the game or one damage dealer in the game.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I'm curious why people would want SCH and RDM to have healing on par with WHM?

Yes, you might be invited to abyssea events, but you'll still be pigeon-holed into the same role as you would if you were on WHM. You also have to keep in mind the balance of jobs. If SCH and RDM could heal on par with WHM then they'd have to take a hit elsewhere.

I'd much rather see something new or different that follows the intended role of SCH and RDM and keeps the identity of WHM, the primary healing job, intact.

If WHM is just a healer a simple enough fix is to remove all it's Enhancing magic and Enfeebling magic. As it stands SE and anyone else that says WHM is just a healer is WRONG.

Just because RDM and SCH are jobs that are inbetween the schools of magic does NOT mean they should be good at one section (nuking) but only subjob average at another (healing.)

[Siiri]

If WHM is just a healer a simple enough fix is to remove all it's Enhancing magic and Enfeebling magic. As it stands SE and anyone else that says WHM is just a healer is WRONG.

Just because RDM and SCH are jobs that are inbetween the schools of magic does NOT mean they should be good at one section (nuking) but only subjob average at another (healing.)

Right, they should nerf scholar's nuking as well. Also nerf Kaustra. I love how scholar can cast a spell and go hide now and solo voidwatch NMs and Shin. Crazy.

[Hayward]

Right, they should nerf scholar's nuking as well. Also nerf Kaustra. I love how scholar can cast a spell and go hide now and solo voidwatch NMs and Shin. Crazy.

Tell me the purpose that would serve. Oh, right, the so-called "hardcore" players need "useless" jobs to laugh at on their circle-jerk forums.

This entire nontroversy shouldn't even be up for debate, it is so obvious. Every job, mages included, need to have unique styles of play that cannot be pigeonholed by those whose mindsets are too simplistic to think beyond the black & white absolutes of generic MMOs. S-E cannot be allowed to pander to these people or the game will suffer badly for it.

In my mind, Cure V solves nothing for either Red Mage or Scholar. Red Mage has a specialty in Enfeebling that can flourish if S-E stops making NMs immune to everything under the sun. What's so overpowered about Red Mages being able to get past those resistances and crippling these NMs regardless? The job has an A- rating in this skill. Let Red Mages use it to their advantage. Scholar is fast becoming a true support/slip magic damage hybrid that doesn't need much to stand out on its own (about adding helices to the Yellow weakness list, S-E, can we talk about that?). Embrava and Kaustra are both steps in the right direction for Scholar and need to be encouraged further (a Faith-type spell added to the Tabula Rasa, maybe?).

[Dantedmc]

Scholar is fast becoming a true support/slip magic damage hybrid that doesn't need much to stand out on its own (about adding helices to the Yellow weakness list, S-E, can we talk about that?). Embrava and Kaustra are both steps in the right direction for Scholar and need to be encouraged further (a Faith-type spell added to the Tabula Rasa, maybe?).

What support abillities does sch exactly have? Horrible 1 tic regain that doesn't even stack with monarch's in vw, worthless enmity spells? Embrava and Kaustra should not even been considered steps in the right direction. Thats like saying Alexander was a major fix for smn. Sch is a job that has nothing to contribute except helix procs and those will be gone soon enough.

[Merton9999]

...I guess "Red Mage" user of both Black and White Magic and "Scholar" user of Dark Arts and Light Arts mean nothing to you?

I don't even have these jobs leveled and I already think it's absurd they don't have Cure V at least. It's like only having one tank in the game or one damage dealer in the game.

This is the way I look at it too. There doesn't seem to be much opposition from the WARs out there that 10 other jobs are able to DD adequately. I'm constantly confused why people think there should be only 1 job capable of main healing a group.

I'm not asking for RDM and SCH to be WHM clones. WHM was my main for 3 years before SCH existed and I'd still like to play it. What I'm asking is to be able to fill the role I enjoy most (healing) in a variety of ways instead of just one.

I don't care if that happens with Cure V or not. In fact I would vastly prefer it happened by fixing enfeebling and enhancing value to the point that they make up the difference for RDM and SCH. The problem is that while WHM healing continues to be strengthened, buffs and enfeebling do not. In fact, with mob auras, immunities, absorptions, and huge damage output, enfeebling and enhancements have degraded from being inadequate to even harmful. Instead of these mob behaviors making fights more challenging and strategic they've just simplified them into mundane cure spam.

In the end my preference in a perfect design would be for RDM and SCH not to get Cure V but for enfeebling and enhancing to make up the difference so I could play the jobs differently than I play WHM. My problem with continuing to suggest this is that I believe the current development team either does not want to figure out how to do this or is incapable of it. Gravity II and Regen V certainly won't do it any better than Saboteur, Animus or Adloquium did.

So I just end up throwing lazy support behind Cure V because it will do the job of getting me out of a Santa Claus outfit occasionally when I want to play healer.

[Scribble]

If WHM is just a healer a simple enough fix is to remove all it's Enhancing magic and Enfeebling magic. As it stands SE and anyone else that says WHM is just a healer is WRONG.

Just because RDM and SCH are jobs that are inbetween the schools of magic does NOT mean they should be good at one section (nuking) but only subjob average at another (healing.)

You quoted my post, the least you could have done was read it.

I did not say that WHM should 'just have healing spells'. It should however, be the most powerful healing job. WHM doesn't excel at anything else.

If you put RDM healing on par with WHM healing then you're basically removing the identity of the WHM job. Why take a WHM if RDM can heal just as well, can melee or nuke if needed AND has the best enfeebling magic?

I understand the appeal for something to make RDM more viable, but you're doinitwrong. This thread could have avoided digressing to 'QQ moar RDMS' if WHM had been left out of the argument. Instead, ask for thoughts or present an idea about how to make RDM more RDMish instead of a WHM knock-off.

If you want a drink that tastes like a Coke, drink a Coke. Don't bitch that Pepsi doesn't taste the same.

[Swords]

You quoted my post, the least you could have done was read it.

I did not say that WHM should 'just have healing spells'. It should however, be the most powerful healing job. WHM doesn't excel at anything else.



WHM is the best healer, but it excels quite well if not better at enhancing magics too from their numerous AoE's, with scholar barely scrapping by due to Accession.

In any case, SE has had a pretty stubborn mindset when it comes to RDM, SMN, and a few other jobs. It really seems like Tanaka just doesn't know what to do with utility/multi-purpose jobs. Besides being fearful of "overpowering" them, he doesn't see any problem buffing already overpowered jobs further, yet adamantly ignores a very vocal community who are desperately struggling, pleading, and albeit begging for some very basic general updates to perform and function adequately with the fast changing pace of the game.