SE's stance on Cure V

[saevel]

Camate posted about the Dev's current stance on Cure V and other jobs.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/15942-dev1029-SCH-Feedback


I know there has been a lot of discussion regarding Regen and Cure V around the forums, so I wanted to pass along feedback that we received from the dev. team that Mocchi posted up earlier today.



In regards to wanting to the ability to cast Regen on alliance members, there have been a lot of people commenting on this, so we will be looking into making this an effect limited to scholar. We are going to need some time to develop and test this out so please give us a bit of time.

Also, thanks a lot for your Regen effect suggestions. We will take them into consideration.

In regards to the topic on Cure V which has cropped up in various other threads, I would like to inform you of our current direction.

We are looking at two main points:

1. The HP recovery amount of Cure III and IV are too low, and it’s hard to keep up with healing
2. Making each job’s specialty stand out more

With the level cap being increased and HP/damage taken amounts increasing, we understand that HP recovery amounts are low; however, we feel that making it possible to have every job that can use cure able to handle things all on their own is a completely different story.

While it’s possible for other jobs to help out with curing and cast support magic, which in turn create conditions making it easier to cure and also reduce the amount of cure-related stress, the job we have designated to be the main healer is white mage. Due to this, we do not currently have any plans of allowing jobs other than white mage to use Cure V.

However, the solution isn’t to limit the functionality of those jobs that assist with curing. So one possibility we’re considering is increasing the influence of the healing skill and MND, as well as increasing the HP recovery amount more than it is currently.

We believe this would involve making adjustments to jobs that have healing skill to improve the amount of HP recovered, but due to the fact that we will also be implementing cure potency equipment, implementing this aspect is simply one issue under consideration.

With that said our goal is not to make it so a certain job’s advantages are given to other jobs so they are able to do the same thing, instead we would like to look into how we can keep each job’s specialties intact and create ways that they can support other jobs.

Basically what many of us have been saying for months now. SE has no intention of allowing RDM or SCH to be capable of replacing a WHM. Although it seems they are looking to adjust cure potency and modify regens to close the gap a bit. I'm hoping for access to Regen III / IV on RDM, probably won't happen but I can always dream.

[cidbahamut]

It's sad how they don't quite grasp that cure potency caps and so they say "we're releasing more cure potency gear guys, so you can't have nice things".

[Daniel_Hatcher]

It's Bull basically.

We're going to raise the cap so Cure IV's heal higher for all jobs including all /whm but we have no intention of doing it to correct way and just giving them Cure V with a slight gimp effect for RDM and SCH.

It appears you don't need to know what you're talking about to be a Dev on FFXI.

[saevel]

It's Bull basically.

We're going to raise the cap so Cure IV's heal higher for all jobs including all /whm but we have no intention of doing it to correct way and just giving them Cure V with a slight gimp effect for RDM and SCH.

It appears you don't need to know what you're talking about to be a Dev on FFXI.


Umm no they said making MND and Healing Magic skill more important. Meaning /WHM might actually get nerfed depending on how they do it. /WHM has half the skill of WHM main yet the base cure power is roughly the same, there is something wrong with that picture.

I know your sad and Q.Qing all day about not having Cure V, but SE plainly stated they don't want RDM or SCH main healing. They flat out said it, no having to read between the lines or guess their intentions.

[Moonracer]

It's sad how they don't quite grasp that cure potency caps and so they say "we're releasing more cure potency gear guys, so you can't have nice things".

You only went on to notice only one thing they said. They are releasing more cure potency gear, yes. BUT, they also said that they was going to make adjustments to the way MND and Healing skill affects cure potency. Meaning that even without gear, their changes will innately increase the amount cured per spell.



It's Bull basically.

We're going to raise the cap so Cure IV's heal higher for all jobs including all /whm but we have no intention of doing it to correct way and just giving them Cure V with a slight gimp effect for RDM and SCH.

It appears you don't need to know what you're talking about to be a Dev on FFXI.

It appears you don't know what it takes to be a Dev for any game. The way people complain, yall expect developers to just jump on it and be able to do it instantly sometimes. Well they are right, in the case that theres a reason why WHM is the only job with Cure V, or VI. Its main purpose is healing. RDM is enfeebling, SCH is enhancing and buffs. simple as that. Accept it and move on. I mean hell, many people want PLD to have Cure V and Shell V (myself included), but for the same reasons, there is a purpose in not having PLD accessible to these. Accept your roles, adapt accordingly, and rediscover what the jobs are for.

[cidbahamut]

Well they are right, in the case that theres a reason why WHM is the only job with Cure V, or VI. Its main purpose is healing. RDM is enfeebling, SCH is enhancing and buffs. simple as that.
Thank you for that. I needed a good laugh.

[Moonracer]

Thank you for that. I needed a good laugh.

You see it as a laugh, but indeed that was their original intention. Gotta see inside the box to grasp it. Yes RDM has nukes, buffs and the like. SCH has mostly everything from WHM and BLM (so essentially, RDM too but then some) BUT, you have to look at gear, and merits and such. they are designed to enhance the job's purpose. RDM's merits are designed towards enfeebling, and despite how you wanna spin the elemental accuracy, its main purpose for that is to help enfeebs stick better. Yes RDM gets Phalanx II as a merit, upon which I should "somewhat" expand upon my original statement, and add that RDM is for SELF enhancement, with slight capability to enhance others, albeit at an increased mana cost. RDM is a self sufficient job, but partywise, they're almost reduced entirely to enfeebling; light, weakened nuking; and tossing out refresh/II, and phalanx.

[Moonracer]

Being a sub-par mage in general. Nuke some, heal some, buff some, lament the fact that enfeebling has been horribly mishandled by SE, cry yourself to sleep in a corner. Or maybe that's just me and my cynicism.

So in this stance, you're using RDM's need to have Cure V as a way to make it useful? Problem is, yes level cap increases changed the way the game went for RDM. But, like i said in my last post, RDM is a solo specialist anyway more than anything. Capable of doing all, but less so in some areas. Again, partywise, I've stated what they're ultimately reduced to. Yes, it seems less so now for RDM. But I honestly do not see much change in usefulness and need of RDM than before. People just sore because now WHM is back in front of RDM.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Why yes, Rdms are in high demand for their merit spells no one else can do.

Oh wait.

[Moonracer]

Why yes, Rdms are in high demand for their merit spells no one else can do.

Oh wait.

Lol, that made me laugh. slightly true, yet in Port Jeuno (the new whitegate, ugh, miss that place) I still see many shouts everyday for a rdm. And I still have people ask me to play on rdm often for enfeebs and refresh and such. So like I said, I fail to see the extreme lack in usefulness that people are claiming for RDM. Looking towards the future though, with new content on the way, perhaps like for instance the new dungeon crawl slated to be released in 2012, RDM will come back to the peak of the mountain people put it on.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

It appears you don't know what it takes to be a Dev for any game. The way people complain, yall expect developers to just jump on it and be able to do it instantly sometimes. Well they are right, in the case that theres a reason why WHM is the only job with Cure V, or VI. Its main purpose is healing. RDM is enfeebling, SCH is enhancing and buffs. simple as that. Accept it and move on. I mean hell, many people want PLD to have Cure V and Shell V (myself included), but for the same reasons, there is a purpose in not having PLD accessible to these. Accept your roles, adapt accordingly, and rediscover what the jobs are for.

You ever played as RDM or SCH? I'm thinking not.

RDM's best enfeebles are merits, like someone said before that's the equivalent of giving WHM upto Cure IV and then making Cure V a merit spell. Every other enfeeble RDM has is given to loads of other jobs the only exception being Gravity which in itself is useless.

SCH is NOT a buffer, the only real buffs it gains is from subjobs or it's 2-hour that does NOT make SCH a buffer.

Then we go onto WHM then shall we. It's only a "healer" in what world is it only a healer. It has better enhancing magic that the job with the highest enhancing, and better magic than your so called Enhancer SCH, it has access to EVERY light enfeeble RDM does and excluding gear which WHM does NOT need to be a good healer is equally as potent as RDM bar the merits. Then with have the lolMelee capability for which WHM thrashes RDM the actual (melee mage) so NO.... WHM is NOT only a healer stop believing the crap SE tell you all the time.



Umm no they said making MND and Healing Magic skill more important. Meaning /WHM might actually get nerfed depending on how they do it. /WHM has half the skill of WHM main yet the base cure power is roughly the same, there is something wrong with that picture.

Yes, MND, the only gimp to subjobs will be the skill which will probably be minute. Other jobs can get MND gear, I know... shocking!

[Neisan_Quetz]

Lol, that made me laugh. slightly true, yet in Port Jeuno (the new whitegate, ugh, miss that place) I still see many shouts everyday for a rdm. And I still have people ask me to play on rdm often for enfeebs and refresh and such. So like I said, I fail to see the extreme lack in usefulness that people are claiming for RDM. Looking towards the future though, with new content on the way, perhaps like for instance the new dungeon crawl slated to be released in 2012, RDM will come back to the peak of the mountain people put it on.

Just... what shouts besides VW are asking for Rdm? Because there's literally no other reason to shout for a Rdm as it stands, and only for its merit spells.

Of course in another update Rdm/Sch will have more procs than Sch main without having a broken JA proc, but that doesn't change much other than marginalize some groups bringing Sch main.

[Moonracer]

Just... what shouts besides VW are asking for Rdm? Because there's literally no other reason to shout for a Rdm as it stands, and only for its merit spells.

Of course in another update Rdm/Sch will have more procs than Sch main without having a broken JA proc, but that doesn't change much other than marginalize some groups bringing Sch main.

Last I saw, old content is still being done as much as new. Limbus, Einherjar, HNMs, Gods, etc. They are not shouted as much, but still, the shouts are there. Don't see it? Ask a LS that still does these things. Abyssea is all the rage now, but its far from the only thing that people do in the game.


You ever played as RDM or SCH? I'm thinking not.

RDM's best enfeebles are merits, like someone said before that's the equivalent of giving WHM upto Cure IV and then making Cure V a merit spell. Every other enfeeble RDM has is given to loads of other jobs the only exception being Gravity which in itself is useless.

SCH is NOT a buffer, the only real buffs it gains is from subjobs or it's 2-hour that does NOT make SCH a buffer.

Then we go onto WHM then shall we. It's only a "healer" in what world is it only a healer. It has better enhancing magic that the job with the highest enhancing, and better magic than your so called Enhancer SCH, it has access to EVERY light enfeeble RDM does and excluding gear which WHM does NOT need to be a good healer is equally as potent as RDM bar the merits. Then with have the lolMelee capability for which WHM thrashes RDM the actual (melee mage) so NO.... WHM is NOT only a healer stop believing the crap SE tell you all the time.

Actually yes, I have played all mage jobs (save blu) on several chars, whm and rdm being the most prominent. So I know full well its use and potential. As far as SCH goes, lets see: it has access to almost all enhancements innately, check. Those it does not have, it can obtain from subjobs, check. Oh, I forgot. The fact that SCH can AoE pretty much every enhancement it has access to, whereas other jobs cannot, save for whm which can AoE protect, shell, and bar spells. SCH potential is limitless per se, but its realistic use is how the players use them and mold them. 9/10, sch is either backup nuking, or backup healing, always buffing.

As far as whm goes, Better enhancing doesnt mean entirely too much. Yes WHM enhancing is more useful than RDM, but as I've stated before, RDM having higher is more for solo purposes. WHM's only enhancing spells though are Protect, Shell, Bar- Spells, and maybe one or two others. Its better, but far more restricted. Yes, WHM can melee, and quite well, i've whinja'ed many things. But realistically, how often do you actually see a WHM doin such? I do not say something simply because SE states it to be so. I speak from experience.

Now to RDM. Ive stated time and time again that RDM is a solo specialist. People get sore because their effectiveness in parties is somewhat diminished, but all the same their usefulness is not. Yes because of new level caps other mage jobs have all the "specialties" that rdm once prided itself on, i.e. convert and refresh, but alternatively RDM gets the same access to many of the things it couldnt before, increasing its usefulness in, lets say for instance, crowd control. Everyone focuses on what other jobs get from RDM. Think about all RDM gets from other jobs as well.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Now to RDM. Ive stated time and time again that RDM is a solo specialist. People get sore because their effectiveness in parties is somewhat diminished, but all the same their usefulness is not. Yes because of new level caps other mage jobs have all the "specialties" that rdm once prided itself on, i.e. convert and refresh, but alternatively RDM gets the same access to many of the things it couldnt before, increasing its usefulness in, lets say for instance, crowd control. Everyone focuses on what other jobs get from RDM. Think about all RDM gets from other jobs as well.

There actually isn't that much considering the only good stuff (/whm or /nin) they've blocked out or gimped severely (accession.)

[Neisan_Quetz]

Aside from maybe salvage which Whm can still main heal in and better there's no real advantage to taking Rdm to any of those.

Technically even less of an advantage for me for sky/dynamis, since I can put the whm /thf if no thf main, get better cures, nas, AoE buffs, and TH2.

[Lilia]

shouts for a rdm.... odin server? fO.o i never see

WHM spell list: only cure5... whm cant other spells or ga spells or ga -na or ja or other things. you invite whm only for cure5 - thats is JUNK. cure 5 help much but is not the only thing for a whm.......

oh rdm with cure5 is mainhealer- is blu or pup a good mainhealer now?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

shouts for a rdm.... odin server? fO.o i never see

WHM spell list: only cure5... whm cant other spells or ga spells or ga -na or ja or other things. you invite whm only for cure5 - thats is JUNK. cure 5 help much but is not the only thing for a whm.......

oh rdm with cure5 is mainhealer- is blu or pup a good mainhealer now?

They're going on old-game mechanics, where RDM was a capable healer over WHM due to Convert, Refresh and only taking one slot as opposed to needing a RDM, BRD or COR with the WHM.

Those times are dead and WHM's MP issues are mostly to completely gone.

[Lilia]

oh i write the last ldr answer by a event

-rdm?
-(ldr) for what?
-(ldr) when you want cure4 or haste come blm/whm or smn/whm please

[FrankReynolds]

Last I saw, old content is still being done as much as new. Limbus, Einherjar, HNMs, Gods, etc. They are not shouted as much, but still, the shouts are there. Don't see it? Ask a LS that still does these things. Abyssea is all the rage now, but its far from the only thing that people do in the game.



Actually yes, I have played all mage jobs (save blu) on several chars, whm and rdm being the most prominent. So I know full well its use and potential. As far as SCH goes, lets see: it has access to almost all enhancements innately, check. Those it does not have, it can obtain from subjobs, check. Oh, I forgot. The fact that SCH can AoE pretty much every enhancement it has access to, whereas other jobs cannot, save for whm which can AoE protect, shell, and bar spells. SCH potential is limitless per se, but its realistic use is how the players use them and mold them. 9/10, sch is either backup nuking, or backup healing, always buffing.

As far as whm goes, Better enhancing doesnt mean entirely too much. Yes WHM enhancing is more useful than RDM, but as I've stated before, RDM having higher is more for solo purposes. WHM's only enhancing spells though are Protect, Shell, Bar- Spells, and maybe one or two others. Its better, but far more restricted. Yes, WHM can melee, and quite well, i've whinja'ed many things. But realistically, how often do you actually see a WHM doin such? I do not say something simply because SE states it to be so. I speak from experience.

Now to RDM. Ive stated time and time again that RDM is a solo specialist. People get sore because their effectiveness in parties is somewhat diminished, but all the same their usefulness is not. Yes because of new level caps other mage jobs have all the "specialties" that rdm once prided itself on, i.e. convert and refresh, but alternatively RDM gets the same access to many of the things it couldnt before, increasing its usefulness in, lets say for instance, crowd control. Everyone focuses on what other jobs get from RDM. Think about all RDM gets from other jobs as well.


Funny, I keep trying to solo on red mage, but Bind and Gravity won't stick on anything anymore, and everything seems to resist my debuffs. I guess I could melee this stuff, but I think I'll go switch to dancer or Thief or NInja first. BRB.

[cidbahamut]

I still see many shouts everyday for a rdm.
Yes, preceded by "Worm {Party} {Do you need it?}".

[Daniel_Hatcher]

oh i write the last ldr answer by a event

-rdm?
-(ldr) for what?
-(ldr) when you want cure4 or haste come blm/whm or smn/whm please

Ain't that the truth. Thanks SE, Really!

[Lilia]

Due to this, we do not currently have any plans of allowing jobs other than white mage to use Cure V.

... BLU,pup,smn >.<

[Hyrist]

It's kinda sad that the alternative solutions have been stated over and over again. But because people have their heads so solidified that they want to be pink mages (or other people won't see any use in them unless they are pink mages) that they've refused to listen to it.

So glad I'm done with this.

[Siiri]

Red Mage was a princess job for longer than any other job in this game. Welcome to the other 15 jobs. I didn't see any Red Mages caring about white mages in the ToAU era. SE knows if red mage got Cure 5 it would go back to red mage only like it was at 75. Good job SE. It was the right choice.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Red Mage was a princess job for longer than any other job in this game. Welcome to the other 15 jobs. I didn't see any Red Mages caring about white mages in the ToAU era. SE knows if red mage got Cure 5 it would go back to red mage only like it was at 75. Good job SE. It was the right choice.

Actually it isn't welcome to the 15 others. It's welcome to one other... WHM.

PS. Did anyone ever really care for a mule job like WHM, they don't really now.

[Neisan_Quetz]

It's nice to know people still delude themselves into thinking the game is exactly like it was in the TaU era.

[saevel]

They're going on old-game mechanics, where RDM was a capable healer over WHM due to Convert, Refresh and only taking one slot as opposed to needing a RDM, BRD or COR with the WHM.

Those times are dead and WHM's MP issues are mostly to completely gone.

Don't be dishonest. Back in the old Cure V thread the numbers were done, the only thing separating RDM/SCH from WHM is Cure V and stona, and SCH/RDM gets stona. After that there is no reason to bring a WHM over one of those other two, all three would have the same healing potential while the RDM and SCH would have more utility. This is a failure of SE to set the mage class's apart from each other or make healing magic skill actually mean something.

Just about every single "give me cure V" person is angling to be desired as a main healer, by definition that means replacing White Mage. White Mage was better then Red Mage at healing in the past, that didn't stop people from going with a Red Mage, especially in the non-tank parties.

[saevel]

oh i write the last ldr answer by a event

-rdm?
-(ldr) for what?
-(ldr) when you want cure4 or haste come blm/whm or smn/whm please

I go RDM to nearly every event <.<
Although if we're doing Abyssea then I might have to change to WAR if we're lacking one.

You just gotta stop thinking RDM = Cure IV Haste Refresh

That thinking is like a disease that's been spread around FFXI since 2004. Have you people actually tried being a non-pink mage?

[FrankReynolds]

I go RDM to nearly every event <.<
Although if we're doing Abyssea then I might have to change to WAR if we're lacking one.

You just gotta stop thinking RDM = Cure IV Haste Refresh

That thinking is like a disease that's been spread around FFXI since 2004. Have you people actually tried being a non-pink mage?

I can show up for every event pup/bst. that doesn't mean its a good idea. It just means that I found someone who will put up with it.

[Dohati]

i think rdm should really get cure5 by 99, because everyone else will have cure4 while using rdm sub job. it isn't fair that almost everything rdm is good for can be gained from using it as a sub. before, cure4 was the main cure spell and cure5 was kinda overkill. now cure6 is kinda overkill, so why don't they make cure5 the regular cure spell? :/ and didn't rdm actually have access to cure5 at 75 when the game was new? i have an old guide that says it did. if it was originally considered at 75, i don't know why it would be out of the question at 99.

[Lilia]

Don't be dishonest. Back in the old Cure V thread the numbers were done, the only thing separating RDM/SCH from WHM is Cure V and stona, and SCH/RDM gets stona. After that there is no reason to bring a WHM over one of those other two, all three would have the same healing potential while the RDM and SCH would have more utility. This is a failure of SE to set the mage class's apart from each other or make healing magic skill actually mean something.



no reason for whm?
Benediction
Afflatus solance (sscure)
Divine caress
Sacrosanctity
curaga ,regen4, esuna
-na ga with af3head
setbonus by proc 0 mag dmg
and and
Rdm can NOT replace whm in 100 years.
only in lvl ~75 events but not in the new endgame

sure you can go rdm ,
were have rdm too in events but after 1-2 nm , the rdms change job ..... why? lol

"You just gotta stop thinking RDM = Cure IV Haste Refresh"
invite as melee, or nuker?
i know rdm can do many jobs, but now he lack in all.
he can do from all a bit , but is that enough now, no
can he heal good-not more, nuke good-sure ,but you not invited for that part, enfeebl.-
....., buffs .. wait phalanx2..
when you see the partys or allis, rdm is replaced by whm, blm, smn,blu,,, more and more

sorry but idk one " rdm is a rly good job, and is all ok" rdm.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

i think rdm should really get cure5 by 99, because everyone else will have cure4 while using rdm sub job. it isn't fair that almost everything rdm is good for can be gained from using it as a sub. before, cure4 was the main cure spell and cure5 was kinda overkill. now cure6 is kinda overkill, so why don't they make cure5 the regular cure spell? :/ and didn't rdm actually have access to cure5 at 75 when the game was new? i have an old guide that says it did. if it was originally considered at 75, i don't know why it would be out of the question at 99.

They were on the scroll, but were removed before it was even added in the game.



Don't be dishonest. Back in the old Cure V thread the numbers were done, the only thing separating RDM/SCH from WHM is Cure V and stona, and SCH/RDM gets stona. After that there is no reason to bring a WHM over one of those other two, all three would have the same healing potential while the RDM and SCH would have more utility. This is a failure of SE to set the mage class's apart from each other or make healing magic skill actually mean something.

Just about every single "give me cure V" person is angling to be desired as a main healer, by definition that means replacing White Mage. White Mage was better then Red Mage at healing in the past, that didn't stop people from going with a Red Mage, especially in the non-tank parties.

Now who's being dishonest, Cure V is NOT the only thing that separates WHM from RDM and SCH. Stopping two jobs natural progression down the spell line doesn't instantly fix WHM it only ruins two other jobs.

If they don't want RDM to heal and want them only to Enfeeble, remove WHM's and BLM's enfeebles (bar Sleep and Repose) and leave them only on RDM. If SCH are the Enhancers then they should have access to enhancing magic outside of subjobs and WHM should NOT do it better than them.

[Monchat]

RDM had 44% cure potency at 90 and now they easilly go over the cap (49% without the voidwath body), and gain nice cure casting time reduction. Honestly outside of abyssea you only need cure 5 for stuffs like vw . As long as you are fighting weak stuff, cure4s for 600 HP is more then enough ( dynamis, KCNMs etc). I rarely use cure 5 on WHM when farming curency for example.

Stop complaining about cure 5 they said you will not get it. Last week-end, I levelled my RDM mule from WHM 47-->95 for abyssea/dynamis purpose ( yeah WHM/WAR or WHM/THF is better than RDM/???, but that is due to -na spells..). It took me 2 days to farm max autorefresh gear and curepotency. Its easy, just do it.

The thing RDM needs imo is tier III enfeebles period.

[tarolin]

To be honest i agree with the devs on this one and i think its the best call to make. Lets face it if sch and rdm got cure 5 we will have posts like this complaining about job stealing from a whm point of view. I think whm should be the main healers and are allowed the more powerful versions of the cure spell and this is coming from a player that has played rdm for 3 years. Ok i know rdm is not having the best of times but the job is still good in many ways without cure V , same for Sch it has it uses. Cure V wont happen for any other job , whm deserves to have this spell alone.

[saevel]

They were on the scroll, but were removed before it was even added in the game.




Now who's being dishonest, Cure V is NOT the only thing that separates WHM from RDM and SCH. Stopping two jobs natural progression down the spell line doesn't instantly fix WHM it only ruins two other jobs.

If they don't want RDM to heal and want them only to Enfeeble, remove WHM's and BLM's enfeebles (bar Sleep and Repose) and leave them only on RDM. If SCH are the Enhancers then they should have access to enhancing magic outside of subjobs and WHM should NOT do it better than them.

Go see monchat's numbers. WHM ends up curing for 20~30 more then RDM with Cure V.

And ALL people care about is your ability to spam cure's and -na's, that's it. Cureskin was a good idea from SE but they capped it way too low and didn't raise it after the level increases. XP loss is a joke now, so no need for R3. And ... that's it, there is nothing else in WHM's toolbag for healing other then ... lol Cure VI (go ask them what they think about that). Curaga III+ ~sounds~ nice on paper, until you realize that hitting an entire group of people with that is ridiculously hard unless your in a pure melee party, and even then the hate generated from that is enough to get you killed the moment the NM does it's hate reset move on the tank. You'll be riding at capped CE and they won't be able to create hate fast enough before the NM makes a bee line towards the WHM. As a RDM even in RDM/SCH support mode I've frequently been the target of the mega boss's anger after it hate stripped our tanks, the cause was the Cure IV spams I do to support out WHMs.

But please tell me how awesome Auspice is, or Esuna, during big boss fights (what we're discussing here).

[Dantedmc]

Go see monchat's numbers. WHM ends up curing for 20~30 more then RDM with Cure V.

And ALL people care about is your ability to spam cure's and -na's, that's it. Cureskin was a good idea from SE but they capped it way too low and didn't raise it after the level increases. XP loss is a joke now, so no need for R3. And ... that's it, there is nothing else in WHM's toolbag for healing other then ... lol Cure VI (go ask them what they think about that). Curaga III+ ~sounds~ nice on paper, until you realize that hitting an entire group of people with that is ridiculously hard unless your in a pure melee party, and even then the hate generated from that is enough to get you killed the moment the NM does it's hate reset move on the tank. You'll be riding at capped CE and they won't be able to create hate fast enough before the NM makes a bee line towards the WHM. As a RDM even in RDM/SCH support mode I've frequently been the target of the mega boss's anger after it hate stripped our tanks, the cause was the Cure IV spams I do to support out WHMs.

But please tell me how awesome Auspice is, or Esuna, during big boss fights (what we're discussing here).

I really don't see how an instant 400 cureskin on cure VI and very close to that on cure V is not enough. Thats more than the base stoneskin cap and its free.

Cure VI is amazing in all the situations where WHM is the only choice (voidwatch and abyssea) because there is no way you're running out of mp and having another high hp cure to use is great. It's also another low enmity cure.

curagas are also amazing, especially when the NM is charging up a ja/aga IV spell. Time it correct and you'll barely notice the pt took damage and no you won't die from pulling hate 99% of the time. IIRC Curaga V is also rumored to have the same enmity mods as cure V.

Whm also has the fastest na's, 20 or higher boost spells which are alot outside of abyssea, the best barspells by far, sacrifice which is becoming even more useful when so many nms are gaining multiple status ailments (ex: all stats -100) and divine caress which is slightly useful. Auspice while not gamebreaking is still useful and I reapply it every chance I get when fanatic's is up along with boost-str and barspells in voidwatch.

Honestly Cureskin alone would make me still go whm if sch got cure V.

[saevel]

I really don't see how an instant 400 cureskin on cure VI and very close to that on cure V is not enough. Thats more than the base stoneskin cap and its free.

Cure VI is amazing in all the situations where WHM is the only choice (voidwatch and abyssea) because there is no way you're running out of mp and having another high hp cure to use is great. It's also another low enmity cure.

curagas are also amazing, especially when the NM is charging up a ja/aga IV spell. Time it correct and you'll barely notice the pt took damage and no you won't die from pulling hate 99% of the time. IIRC Curaga V is also rumored to have the same enmity mods as cure V.

Whm also has the fastest na's, 20 or higher boost spells which are alot outside of abyssea, the best barspells by far, sacrifice which is becoming even more useful when so many nms are gaining multiple status ailments (ex: all stats -100) and divine caress which is slightly useful. Auspice while not gamebreaking is still useful and I reapply it every chance I get when fanatic's is up along with boost-str and barspells in voidwatch.

Honestly Cureskin alone would make me still go whm if sch got cure V.

Go do your research again. And then come back.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Afflatus_Solace

Cureskin has a hard cap of 300, no amount of additional healing will grant a higher skin. It lasts for 30s, the only ones who realistically can make use of it are the tanks. Also there is no cureskin for curaga's, only single target Cure's.

Sacrifice has a really BIG problem, namely that you must then remove all those status ailments from yourself, potentially having the tank die in the process. The key block here is Erase has a really annoying /recast even on RDM. SE needs to create Erase II for multiple removes and make Erase a 5s recast instead of 15s.

I was waiting for someone to mention Auspice / Gain spells. Their useless in big fights, specifically VWNM's, like Barspells. White Mage run's in, starts to cast Ausc.. *BAM 2K AOE* White Mage is now dead. White Mage hits yes on reraise ... long animation ... rising from ground ... *BAM ANOTHER AOE* White Mage is dead again. VWNM's tend to go *HUGE AOE* -> Tier IV Ga or Ja -> HUGE AOE -> Tier IV Ga or Ja -> HUGE AOE -> Tier II AM -> HUGE AOE. Trying to get up while your within 15 feet of them is suicide, the tank has to pull it away potentially killing other people. Tractor counts as zoning and won't work. We've had our main WHM weakened for 15 min straight due to aoe spam, and this is without trying to cast barspells. Simply put, on anything that can aoe one shot a white mage, you don't use those spells on. And if they can hit my Red Mage for 1700 through a 380 point stoneskin, then they will one shot a White Mage.

So again we're back to ..
Cure V
Erase
-na

Seriously, you guys should be making arguments about stona if anything. Its the one status removal that we can't get /WHM or /SCH and there are some fights that removing petrification are key. But the fact that no one has actually mentioned it just leads me to believe people actually really want to just replace White Mage outright.

[Monchat]

you can get stona from /whm lol its level 39. and yeah, a level 95 WHM is basically a level 75 RDM with cure V and stona, a level 95 RDM is a level 75 RDM with refresh II and stona, as far as healing go. Cure 5 does 1k ish cure 4 does 600. not much difference if you think about it, since cure V is typically used for the lesser enimity and dont always cure for that much. I use cure 5 if i have to heal 700+ HP, otherwise cure 4.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Any decent Whm should be curing in Bliaud +2, which raises the cap to 400, and Whm can still cap cure potency even without the body slot, or get within 2% of it.

If your tank has def/mdef down etc I just sacrifice it and not even care it's there.

[SpankWustler]

Go do your research again. And then come back.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Afflatus_Solace

Cureskin has a hard cap of 300, no amount of additional healing will grant a higher skin. It lasts for 30s, the only ones who realistically can make use of it are the tanks. Also there is no cureskin for curaga's, only single target Cure's.

Sacrifice has a really BIG problem, namely that you must then remove all those status ailments from yourself, potentially having the tank die in the process. The key block here is Erase has a really annoying /recast even on RDM. SE needs to create Erase II for multiple removes and make Erase a 5s recast instead of 15s.

I was waiting for someone to mention Auspice / Gain spells. Their useless in big fights, specifically VWNM's, like Barspells. White Mage run's in, starts to cast Ausc.. *BAM 2K AOE* White Mage is now dead. White Mage hits yes on reraise ... long animation ... rising from ground ... *BAM ANOTHER AOE* White Mage is dead again. VWNM's tend to go *HUGE AOE* -> Tier IV Ga or Ja -> HUGE AOE -> Tier IV Ga or Ja -> HUGE AOE -> Tier II AM -> HUGE AOE. Trying to get up while your within 15 feet of them is suicide, the tank has to pull it away potentially killing other people. Tractor counts as zoning and won't work. We've had our main WHM weakened for 15 min straight due to aoe spam, and this is without trying to cast barspells. Simply put, on anything that can aoe one shot a white mage, you don't use those spells on. And if they can hit my Red Mage for 1700 through a 380 point stoneskin, then they will one shot a White Mage.

Assuming the White Mage in question is both naked and incompetent, you made a lot of good points.

[HimuraKenshyn]

Don't be dishonest. Back in the old Cure V thread the numbers were done, the only thing separating RDM/SCH from WHM is Cure V and stona, and SCH/RDM gets stona. After that there is no reason to bring a WHM over one of those other two, all three would have the same healing potential while the RDM and SCH would have more utility. This is a failure of SE to set the mage class's apart from each other or make healing magic skill actually mean something.

Just about every single "give me cure V" person is angling to be desired as a main healer, by definition that means replacing White Mage. White Mage was better then Red Mage at healing in the past, that didn't stop people from going with a Red Mage, especially in the non-tank parties.


Totally agree it's funny that peeps again want to repeat the same BS over again as soon as RDM or SCH heals equal to whm it will be TAU all over again no question. The game hasn't changed that much the mechanics are the same in every way it's just after 8 years RDM isn't in the driver seat still viable just not top chef.

Think 4 slots in a party:

Healer - Damage Dealer - Tank - Support

That's the game why do PLD cry today? Simple DD can tank sucks for them hard on most content make another class equal to whm watch the whm class disappear again.....

How many pld, whm, blm did you see in 75 merit parties?????

[Moonracer]

Go do your research again. And then come back.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Afflatus_Solace

Cureskin has a hard cap of 300, no amount of additional healing will grant a higher skin. It lasts for 30s, the only ones who realistically can make use of it are the tanks. Also there is no cureskin for curaga's, only single target Cure's.

Sacrifice has a really BIG problem, namely that you must then remove all those status ailments from yourself, potentially having the tank die in the process. The key block here is Erase has a really annoying /recast even on RDM. SE needs to create Erase II for multiple removes and make Erase a 5s recast instead of 15s.

I was waiting for someone to mention Auspice / Gain spells. Their useless in big fights, specifically VWNM's, like Barspells. White Mage run's in, starts to cast Ausc.. *BAM 2K AOE* White Mage is now dead. White Mage hits yes on reraise ... long animation ... rising from ground ... *BAM ANOTHER AOE* White Mage is dead again. VWNM's tend to go *HUGE AOE* -> Tier IV Ga or Ja -> HUGE AOE -> Tier IV Ga or Ja -> HUGE AOE -> Tier II AM -> HUGE AOE. Trying to get up while your within 15 feet of them is suicide, the tank has to pull it away potentially killing other people. Tractor counts as zoning and won't work. We've had our main WHM weakened for 15 min straight due to aoe spam, and this is without trying to cast barspells. Simply put, on anything that can aoe one shot a white mage, you don't use those spells on. And if they can hit my Red Mage for 1700 through a 380 point stoneskin, then they will one shot a White Mage.

So again we're back to ..
Cure V
Erase
-na

Seriously, you guys should be making arguments about stona if anything. Its the one status removal that we can't get /WHM or /SCH and there are some fights that removing petrification are key. But the fact that no one has actually mentioned it just leads me to believe people actually really want to just replace White Mage outright.

Sounds like the WHM's you've partied with suck. As far as multiple removes, it sounds wierd, but misery >> Esuna after sacrificing works, removing two ailments. side that with erase, thats 3 effects taken out fast, then the pissant ones can be removed with -nas. Auspice/Gain spells, are always universally useful. Who doesnt want to be giving the enemy less tp, and have more free stat just cuz? If the whm can't stay alive and time things properly, thats mostly their fault; I say mostly, because all mobs cheat and occasionally have a cheapshot in their pocket. But for your standard fights, any whm ESPECIALLY in VW/Abyssea, should be able to more than hold their own, and not get wtfpwned in a fight unless hate is on them.

[Daniel]

I gave up on cure V a long time ago, but then every update SE sticks it to me by reminding me that the ONLY thing my rdm is good for in most settings is slow II and refresh. Temper omg soooooooo good, ya right, most useless piece of shit spell in the game. To make matters worse most of our useful enhancement spells can't be used with accession... thanks SE, thanks allot.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I gave up on cure V a long time ago, but then every update SE sticks it to me by reminding me that the ONLY thing my rdm is good for in most settings is slow II and refresh. Temper omg soooooooo good, ya right, most useless piece of shit spell in the game. To make matters worse most of our useful enhancement spells can't be used with accession... thanks SE, thanks allot.

Not being able to cast it on other people doesn't make the spell useless. Poor Design, but NOT useless.

[saevel]

Sounds like the WHM's you've partied with suck. As far as multiple removes, it sounds wierd, but misery >> Esuna after sacrificing works, removing two ailments. side that with erase, thats 3 effects taken out fast, then the pissant ones can be removed with -nas. Auspice/Gain spells, are always universally useful. Who doesnt want to be giving the enemy less tp, and have more free stat just cuz? If the whm can't stay alive and time things properly, thats mostly their fault; I say mostly, because all mobs cheat and occasionally have a cheapshot in their pocket. But for your standard fights, any whm ESPECIALLY in VW/Abyssea, should be able to more than hold their own, and not get wtfpwned in a fight unless hate is on them.

Why is it the absolute last argument used is "your XXX must suck". It's like when people have nothing else to say they fall back to that. It kinda ruins your credibility.

Anyone who's done any VWNM's know that the NM's spam high damage aoe's constantly, and when their not spamming aoe TP moves their spamming -jas and other high damage aoe spells. It's so much that the new "thing" is for melee's to TP in -PDT / MDT gear to survive all the aoe's so they can proc stuff and do damage rather then die. So the argument of "you must have X / Y / Z sucks" fails immediately. A white mage who tries to run close enough to hit the tank with any self cast aoe spell is going to be killed or severely crippled, this isn't a guess it's fact. Go get close to Kaggan or Tiamat V3 and see how long you last. And don't even try the distance argument, many of those aoe's are 20 foot range, meaning if you can cast cure then your either in range or less then 1 foot out of range. Getting any close and you'll be hit with them, staying within range for more then 10s and your most likely going to die or otherwise be incapable of healing the tank.

Seriously what ARE YOU DOING? Abyssea is a joke now, and anything not upper end VWNM is easy. Thus any argument that matters is Jeuno / Outlands VWNM, mostly T2 or T3. You know the ones that do 1~2K aoe's followed by fast cast -ja's and aga -IV's. The ones that don't need TP to WS and thus Auspice is completely and utterly useless.

[Quetzacoatl]

It's kinda sad that the alternative solutions have been stated over and over again. But because people have their heads so solidified that they want to be pink mages (or other people won't see any use in them unless they are pink mages) that they've refused to listen to it.

So glad I'm done with this.

Quoted for f#@%ing truth.


It's nice to know people still delude themselves into thinking the game is exactly like it was in the TaU era.

Why am I still called on to heal on RDM then? Granted, in a situation where the person asking me can't find a WHM to save their life.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Probably because you didn't level a better healer. Or Blm/Smn, which can sub the exact same heals and cap cure potency just the same.

[Lilia]

sorry but is no fact that a whm alltime die when he try selfcast buffs for the tank.

and i rly like divine caress and sacrosanctity, the set bonus hit ~10% 0 mag dmg!!!!
by enfeeblingmobs ( cloris ) whm can cure doom with 1 spell for all party member
curaga2 (/whm) is to low for a party heal

idk why you think that you can replace a whm when you have cure5 in endgame.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

sorry but is no fact that a whm alltime die when he try selfcast buffs for the tank.

and i rly like divine caress and sacrosanctity, the set bonus hit ~10% 0 mag dmg!!!!
by enfeeblingmobs ( cloris ) whm can cure doom with 1 spell for all party member
curaga2 (/whm) is to low for a party heal

idk why you think that you can replace a whm when you have cure5 in endgame.

Huh?

I don't want to replace WHM, but I also don't want to be gimped on one section of my job just because SE can't design jobs properly either.

[Belmonts]

Originally Posted by Camate

"We feel that making it possible to have every job that can use cure able to handle things all on their own is a completely different story.

While it’s possible for other jobs to help out with curing and cast support magic, which in turn create conditions making it easier to cure and also reduce the amount of cure-related stress"

It is hilarious and sad that every job with WHM as subjob can cast Cure IV, seeing MNK's DRK's, SAM's with that subjob on is not less stressing, it has the opposite effect in my opinion, they gimp themselves as proper DD's... and even with full merited MP pool it's ridiculous that DD's have cure IV just because they get /WHM. And sadly... many abyssea brewed WHM's are pathetic, because outside Aby, they don't have Refresh atmas + enhanced MP pool and when they run out of MP after some cure VI and V's they start QQing about it cus they don't know how to cure properly and they just bomb cure.

As a main RDM I will happily give up Cure V and stop complaining if SE really makes us RDM as we are supposed to be... Enfeeblers ! and in second place magic support casters. But what happens, that a HUGE bunch of the NM's around are immune to our spells... even with enfeebling magic capped and with all Mag. Acc. gear + Saboteur and lots of MND and INT, they just don't land...

SE, please let us do our job and make RDM's more efficient in real NM battles, nobody cares if we paralyze a normal mob. And then maybe ppl will stop asking for a Cure V that, in advance, you are not gonna give us.

[Dantedmc]

Go do your research again. And then come back.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Afflatus_Solace

Cureskin has a hard cap of 300, no amount of additional healing will grant a higher skin. It lasts for 30s, the only ones who realistically can make use of it are the tanks. Also there is no cureskin for curaga's, only single target Cure's.

Sacrifice has a really BIG problem, namely that you must then remove all those status ailments from yourself, potentially having the tank die in the process. The key block here is Erase has a really annoying /recast even on RDM. SE needs to create Erase II for multiple removes and make Erase a 5s recast instead of 15s.

I was waiting for someone to mention Auspice / Gain spells. Their useless in big fights, specifically VWNM's, like Barspells. White Mage run's in, starts to cast Ausc.. *BAM 2K AOE* White Mage is now dead. White Mage hits yes on reraise ... long animation ... rising from ground ... *BAM ANOTHER AOE* White Mage is dead again. VWNM's tend to go *HUGE AOE* -> Tier IV Ga or Ja -> HUGE AOE -> Tier IV Ga or Ja -> HUGE AOE -> Tier II AM -> HUGE AOE. Trying to get up while your within 15 feet of them is suicide, the tank has to pull it away potentially killing other people. Tractor counts as zoning and won't work. We've had our main WHM weakened for 15 min straight due to aoe spam, and this is without trying to cast barspells. Simply put, on anything that can aoe one shot a white mage, you don't use those spells on. And if they can hit my Red Mage for 1700 through a 380 point stoneskin, then they will one shot a White Mage.

So again we're back to ..
Cure V
Erase
-na

Seriously, you guys should be making arguments about stona if anything. Its the one status removal that we can't get /WHM or /SCH and there are some fights that removing petrification are key. But the fact that no one has actually mentioned it just leads me to believe people actually really want to just replace White Mage outright.

Maybe you should do your research. The +2 body raises the cap to 400 and the amout from 25% to 35% and no the tank isn't the only one who makes use of it. Any DD who pulls hate and hit once is usually hit twice atleast before hate is reestablished.

There is no issue with sacrifice. A tank / DD being hit -100 to all stats is dangerous. -100 to stats on whm on the other hand doesn't affect it too much as long as you stay out of range for the duration. You can't convert silence/pet/terror etc. to yourself so there is no issue with that. The only spell that is dangerous is para which I usually remove before sacrificing if it is in the group of ailments.

I also love how you skip over the part where I say use fanatic's run in range and buff then run out. Magic won't oneshot a whm and if I get hit by a spell (unlikely) I can curaga the whole pt because we'll all be range. I've done this on many vwnms including Kaggen, Pil, and Uptala. Not to mention if you are in a nontank pt all the DDs will be out of range at some point for you to rebuff them.

So no, actually we are back to.....
Cure VI
Cureskin
Curagas
Sacrifice
the fastest nas /erases
best barspells by far
20 or higher boost spells which is alot outside abyssea
auspice (moderately useful)
divine caress (moderately useful)
and the things that I had forgotten for last time
Exclusive White magic procs
Hexa strike

[Greatguardian]

Peeps be forgetting Sacrosanctity too. That shit is bomb.

[saevel]

Maybe you should do your research. The +2 body raises the cap to 400 and the amout from 25% to 35% and no the tank isn't the only one who makes use of it. Any DD who pulls hate and hit once is usually hit twice atleast before hate is reestablished.

There is no issue with sacrifice. A tank / DD being hit -100 to all stats is dangerous. -100 to stats on whm on the other hand doesn't affect it too much as long as you stay out of range for the duration. You can't convert silence/pet/terror etc. to yourself so there is no issue with that. The only spell that is dangerous is para which I usually remove before sacrificing if it is in the group of ailments.

I also love how you skip over the part where I say use fanatic's run in range and buff then run out. Magic won't oneshot a whm and if I get hit by a spell (unlikely) I can curaga the whole pt because we'll all be range. I've done this on many vwnms including Kaggen, Pil, and Uptala. Not to mention if you are in a nontank pt all the DDs will be out of range at some point for you to rebuff them.

So no, actually we are back to.....
Cure VI
Cureskin
Curagas
Sacrifice
the fastest nas /erases
best barspells by far
20 or higher boost spells which is alot outside abyssea
auspice (moderately useful)
divine caress (moderately useful)
and the things that I had forgotten for last time
Exclusive White magic procs
Hexa strike

You got one fanatics per HV proc. And your really REALLY stretching now.

Cure V
-na
erase
haste

That is what we invite healers for, anything else and your deluding yourself. Why do you think there is such a huge hub bub over RDM / SCH getting Cure V, it's because with it they will be able to main heal just fine.

[Greatguardian]

Your healers must suck. It fits the trend with you, though, so I won't discount the possibility.

[Siiri]

So no, actually we are back to.....
Cure VI
Cureskin
Curagas
Sacrifice
the fastest nas /erases
best barspells by far
20 or higher boost spells which is alot outside abyssea
auspice (moderately useful)
divine caress (moderately useful)
and the things that I had forgotten for last time
Exclusive White magic procs
Hexa strike

Cure VI-fairly meh spell
Cureskin- Had this at 75, made not a bit of difference on whm invite rate.
Curagas-Had this at 75, made not a bit of difference on whm invite rate.
Sacrifice-Had this at 75, made not a bit of difference on whm invite rate.
the fastest nas /erases-Had this at 75, made not a bit of difference on whm invite rate.
best barspells by far-Had this at 75, made not a bit of difference on whm invite rate.
20 or higher boost spells which is alot outside abyssea-ok
auspice (moderately useful)-Had this at 75, made not a bit of difference on whm invite rate.
divine caress (moderately useful)-meh
and the things that I had forgotten for last time
Exclusive White magic procs-ok
Hexa strike-LOL????
Sacrosanctity -very nice, hardly a game changer on a 10 minute recast.

To me not enough has changed since 75 to be sure that if SE gave Cure V to scholar and red mage that the ToAU attitude towards white mage wouldn't return. I think scholar is a greater danger to white mage than red mage though. I have Red mage now up high and it feels very weak on aoe healing. I guess SE doesn't want to chance it though.

[FrankReynolds]

Go do an event where there is even a moderately tough NM that does heavy damage, and debuffs. Bring 1 red Mage and 1 white Mage. Tell the white Mage he isn't allowed to use solace, and can cast nothing but cure V. see if the red Mage can handle everything.

If people are right about cure V being all that White Mage has going for it, then this should be a legit set up. Feel free to post videos of your exploits, proving everyone wrong. Bonus points for doing realllllly hard NMS without the use of anything but cure V from the White Mage.

[Dais]

I do not feel cure 4 is powerful enough to be any job's primary cure at 95, much less 99. As it stands blue mage and dragoon can consistently produce more powerful cures than rdm, pld, or sch (okay, to be fair sch can top blu, but will eventually run out of stratagems). It would be a stretch to say anyone subbing whm can cure as well as these three affected jobs, but it certainly takes less work to overcome the difference than it ever has in the past. The line between blm/whm and sch in particular seems more blurred than it ought to these days.
I can understand the desire to keep WHM distinct in it's premiere healing capability, but it's getting to the point where it is the ONLY capable healing job -even outside the realm of inflated hp that is abyssea. If cure 5 cannot be given to rdm, sch, and pld then maybe a comparable cure without fixed enmity and a slightly longer recast time would be acceptable? This addition would add the kind of clutch cure you need in a desperate situation while still making it a risk to use, the same way big cures used to be balanced in the old days, with enmity generation.

I won't dispute cure V may be too much given to every healer job, but I adamantly believe cure IV is too little.

[saevel]

Cure VI-fairly meh spell
Cureskin- Had this at 75, made not a bit of difference on whm invite rate.
Curagas-Had this at 75, made not a bit of difference on whm invite rate.
Sacrifice-Had this at 75, made not a bit of difference on whm invite rate.
the fastest nas /erases-Had this at 75, made not a bit of difference on whm invite rate.
best barspells by far-Had this at 75, made not a bit of difference on whm invite rate.
20 or higher boost spells which is alot outside abyssea-ok
auspice (moderately useful)-Had this at 75, made not a bit of difference on whm invite rate.
divine caress (moderately useful)-meh
and the things that I had forgotten for last time
Exclusive White magic procs-ok
Hexa strike-LOL????
Sacrosanctity -very nice, hardly a game changer on a 10 minute recast.

To me not enough has changed since 75 to be sure that if SE gave Cure V to scholar and red mage that the ToAU attitude towards white mage wouldn't return. I think scholar is a greater danger to white mage than red mage though. I have Red mage now up high and it feels very weak on aoe healing. I guess SE doesn't want to chance it though.

What I've been saying the entire time, all people really care about is Cure V, haste, and status removal. That is all that's needed to main heal. Everything else just makes it easier / more MP efficient, but as we've seen in the past players couldn't care how inefficient or how hard the RDM / SCH / SMN has to work, they dont' care the stress level on the healer, they only care that the healer can put out Cures and put them out fast.

[Feliciaa]

IMO. Cure 5 should be left to WHM. However, RDM should gain access to higher tier Regen spells. That way RDM can heal people but it won't become just another healer.

Honestly, the design behind RDM needs a serious adjustments in what it does best Enfeebling.
The design team should focus on improving RDM's ability to not only land Enfeebles but it should also cast more unique RDM only Enfeebling spells.

Some things I think RDM needs is a Trait that increases a high lvl RDM's ability to land spells or even a RDM only M.acc spell. Even a Enfeebling spell that lowers the damage a target's TP move would do or a spell that lowers M.atk would be greatly sought after for high level fights such as VW.

While I do agree that RDM in it's current state of the game is lacking in all areas I really do think its focus should stay with Enfeebling magic instead of taking the chance with it becoming a wanna be WHM.

[Hayward]

Good on S-E for not going down that wannabe-WHM road again. I didn't level RDM for that purpose, nor was it designed that way. Not at 75 and not now. What is needed, as others have suggested, are adjustments that solidify Red Mage's area of expertise, which is Enfeeblement.

S-E made a colossal mess of things in trying to prevent soloers from fighting NMs via immunity to Bind, Gravity, and Sleep. They compounded this with that Tranquil Heart trait, which really should not have been given to Red Mages in the first place (tanking was another part of the job's repertoire until that blunder).

To address the enfeeblement issue, I suggest a RDM-exclusive Job Trait that allows Red Mages the chance to penetrate any and all immunities to Enfeebling Magic (increasing with skill above the natural cap). It would also be great if Saboteur could double the duration of enfeebles as well as their effects.

The modifications to Healing Magic skill and MND will suffice so long as the skill rate is increased to reflect its value.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Good on S-E for not going down that wannabe-WHM road again. I didn't level RDM for that purpose, nor was it designed that way. Not at 75 and not now. What is needed, as others have suggested, are adjustments that solidify Red Mage's area of expertise, which is Enfeeblement.

S-E made a colossal mess of things in trying to prevent soloers from fighting NMs via immunity to Bind, Gravity, and Sleep. They compounded this with that Tranquil Heart trait, which really should not have been given to Red Mages in the first place (tanking was another part of the job's repertoire until that blunder).

To address the enfeeblement issue, I suggest a RDM-exclusive Job Trait that allows Red Mages the chance to penetrate any and all immunities to Enfeebling Magic (increasing with skill above the natural cap). It would also be great if Saboteur could double the duration of enfeebles as well as their effects.

The modifications to Healing Magic skill and MND will suffice so long as the skill rate is increased to reflect its value.

No it was designed as an in-between, middle type job, and as fair as curing and most jobs actually a RDM is as in the middle as a Rock to Mount Kilimanjaro. Cure IV was fine at 75, at 99 it will not be no matter what SE decide. I'd rather they just remove curing from RDM if this is truly what they believe.

Tranquil Heart didn't kill RDM tanking, the gimp to things like Blind and Gravity did, Tranquil Heart just furthered it.

A chance wouldn't fix RDM enfeebling. No one will take a job for a random, probably ~5%, chance of it hitting. They need multiple things such as:


UNIQUE enfeebles, as in RDM only, non merit system. Every other job that excels at something has unique spells. Passing them to every job, and any job is an insult.

NM Enfeebling immunity needs to die. If they have an issue with enfeebling to the NM's making them near worthless, weaken the enfeebles on NM's. I'd rather them hitting and crippling them a little rather than them being completely immune.

Make skill impact the potency as well as having a bigger impact on the accuracy this then puts RDM much further ahead of other jobs.

[Lilia]

What I've been saying the entire time, all people really care about is Cure V, haste, and status removal. That is all that's needed to main heal. Everything else just makes it easier / more MP efficient, but as we've seen in the past players couldn't care how inefficient or how hard the RDM / SCH / SMN has to work, they dont' care the stress level on the healer, they only care that the healer can put out Cures and put them out fast.

I can go BLU/WHM - i have cure5, curega4, erase ,erasega, -na, haste :) anyone want invite me as main healer for endgame?

[cidbahamut]

Cure VI-fairly meh spell
Cureskin- Had this at 75, made not a bit of difference on whm invite rate.
Curagas-Had this at 75, made not a bit of difference on whm invite rate.
Sacrifice-Had this at 75, made not a bit of difference on whm invite rate.
the fastest nas /erases-Had this at 75, made not a bit of difference on whm invite rate.
best barspells by far-Had this at 75, made not a bit of difference on whm invite rate.
20 or higher boost spells which is alot outside abyssea-ok
auspice (moderately useful)-Had this at 75, made not a bit of difference on whm invite rate.
divine caress (moderately useful)-meh
and the things that I had forgotten for last time
Exclusive White magic procs-ok
Hexa strike-LOL????
Sacrosanctity -very nice, hardly a game changer on a 10 minute recast.

To me not enough has changed since 75 to be sure that if SE gave Cure V to scholar and red mage that the ToAU attitude towards white mage wouldn't return. I think scholar is a greater danger to white mage than red mage though. I have Red mage now up high and it feels very weak on aoe healing. I guess SE doesn't want to chance it though.

You need to expand your horizons beyond exp parties.

[saevel]

I can go BLU/WHM - i have cure5, curega4, erase ,erasega, -na, haste :) anyone want invite me as main healer for endgame?

I know your joking, but I've actually main healed as BLU/WHM. It's easily the second best healer in the game, easily. It has two issues, first being BLU heals are only party castable but honestly in a tank party this is a non-issue, and second is that the player base has gotten used to BLU being a "DD ONRY" for so long, they have serious issues thinking about it as a healer. There is even a Cure Pot +10% sword out now that a BLU can off hand, meaning they don't have to switch out to a light staff for main healing.

BLU/WHM has

Magic Fruit
P.Embrace
Cure IV

Erase
all -na's
Erasega (WHM doesn't even get this)

Curaga / Curaga II (remote light aoe healing / waking ppl up)
Healing Breeze (Super cheap Curaga II)
White Wind (HP based heavy curaga)

Diamond Hide (Stoneskinga)

Seriously BLU's are insanely good at healing. Their just too busy QQing about SE "hating" them to realize it. Or they do realize it and are scared sh!tless to be pushed into a healing role.

[saevel]

IMO. Cure 5 should be left to WHM. However, RDM should gain access to higher tier Regen spells. That way RDM can heal people but it won't become just another healer.

Honestly, the design behind RDM needs a serious adjustments in what it does best Enfeebling.
The design team should focus on improving RDM's ability to not only land Enfeebles but it should also cast more unique RDM only Enfeebling spells.

Some things I think RDM needs is a Trait that increases a high lvl RDM's ability to land spells or even a RDM only M.acc spell. Even a Enfeebling spell that lowers the damage a target's TP move would do or a spell that lowers M.atk would be greatly sought after for high level fights such as VW.

While I do agree that RDM in it's current state of the game is lacking in all areas I really do think its focus should stay with Enfeebling magic instead of taking the chance with it becoming a wanna be WHM.

Well SE is currently in the process of rebuilding / re-tweaking RDM. In the past the player based focused ONLY on RDM's white magic side via the healing magic skill. RDM was known for three things (Haste, Refresh, Cure IV) and none of them are affected by skill. SE gave RDM Tier IV nukes, MAB III and Magic Burst Bonus along with tons of nuking stats on our emperian armor, that was SE fixing the Black Magic side of RDM. Now SE's looking at the WAR side, Temper and possibly WS adjustments, their also slowly letting us back on melee gear. Their adjusting the healing magic formula for SCH, whatever RDM gets out of it will be a windfall. SE wants SCH to do the white magic stuff that RDM use to be forced into doing, Healing / Hasting / Refreshing. They even went so far as to redesign Regen's for SCH, their now short duration but pretty high HP/tick, the same thing we asked SE to do for us.

Their also talking about doing more to buff up RDM's enfeebles, but honestly there is a serious issue here. Anything complicated or *awesome* would immediately be nerfed on HNM's and thus put into the "awesome but impractical" category. Break / Gravity / Bind are prime examples of this. Best approach would be to make simple stat reduction enfeebles, very little room for them to screw it up and not a big enough effect to make HNMs immune to them.

Guys, stop thinking of RDM as a main healer, it won't ever be that ever again. SE has plainly stated this. If you want to be a main healer then you have WHM, BLU and to a lessor extend SCH to look at.

[BurnNotice]

You only went on to notice only one thing they said. They are releasing more cure potency gear, yes. BUT, they also said that they was going to make adjustments to the way MND and Healing skill affects cure potency. Meaning that even without gear, their changes will innately increase the amount cured per spell.




It appears you don't know what it takes to be a Dev for any game. The way people complain, yall expect developers to just jump on it and be able to do it instantly sometimes. Well they are right, in the case that theres a reason why WHM is the only job with Cure V, or VI. Its main purpose is healing. RDM is enfeebling, SCH is enhancing and buffs. simple as that. Accept it and move on. I mean hell, many people want PLD to have Cure V and Shell V (myself included), but for the same reasons, there is a purpose in not having PLD accessible to these. Accept your roles, adapt accordingly, and rediscover what the jobs are for.

Yes, it does take an incredible amount of deliberation to give jobs access to certain spells and how potent it should be.

[Siiri]

You need to expand your horizons beyond exp parties.

I go through this list on every Cure V topic. Yes whm was the go to healer at 75 of mega bosses, Odin, Ultima, Omega, Khimera, Cerb, Tiamat, etc. However, many other end games activities was rdm only. Salvage = rdm only. Was that not end game? My first limbus group forbid white mages in the farming tiers. Likewise, my einherjar group had during their intro web page-we will only use red mage healers in the wings. No white mages allowed. (Basically this, it also said einherjar parties are setup like colibri parties-no white mages) How many missions through the levels were white mages preferred. I told the story before of how our white mage was not allowed to do airship. (Wasn't me, I was the black mage)

I never used white mage to xp, I solo'd puddings at 75, and on the way to 99 we been gold boxing various emperyeon weapons. I don't feel the need to flag up and do worms with people I don't know.

[Dantedmc]

That was because Whm had mp issues at 75. After /sch and solace it became better and now no mage has mp issues at this time. Whm can get up to 7tic gear refresh, +2 pants, and refresh / convert from rdm or arts / strategems / cmp from sch. There is obviously unlimited mp in abyssea, but even in voidwatch now you get 2x lucid ethers and 2x manapowders as long as you have the correct KIs. These get restored everytime you get a hq proc and one may be restored from a nq proc. All other events whm definitely isn't running out of mp.

[saevel]

That was because Whm had mp issues at 75. After /sch and solace it became better and now no mage has mp issues at this time. Whm can get up to 7tic gear refresh, +2 pants, and refresh / convert from rdm or arts / strategems / cmp from sch. There is obviously unlimited mp in abyssea, but even in voidwatch now you get 2x lucid ethers and 2x manapowders as long as you have the correct KIs. These get restored everytime you get a hq proc and one may be restored from a nq proc. All other events whm definitely isn't running out of mp.

It wasn't MP issues, get off the MP train. WHM's were used if they were available but the demand was on RDM's for the simple reason that a RDM could do everything a WHM could do and then some. The fact that the RDM had to bust their a$$ and about fry their brain's wasn't even an afterthought to the party and LS leaders. Give a WHM, RDM and SCH infinite MP and Cure V and the RDM or SCH will be chosen every time for the simple reason that they are more versatile. White Mage can heal and only heal, they heal the best, they head the hardest, they heal the fastest, but in the end they only heal. If a RDM, SCH, or hell even SMN can heal, not the best, not the hardest, not the fastest, but if it's *enough* for a victory, then they'll be chosen over a WHM. Players do this for the same reason they did BLM/BRD in abyssea. A BRD can proc a bard's song weakness better then any BLM, yet you didn't see abyssea farming groups looking for BRDs. Instead they said "well, a BLM/BRD can do it well enough that we don't need the BRD, more loot for us". SCH's are now going apesh!t that SE is giving helix's to /SCH. Their not complaining about other jobs actually using them, their complaining because they might lose their position in /shout Voidwatch groups to BLM/SCH's.

That is how FFXI works in reality. Players will try to get by with the absolute least support possible for any event, they will seek the fastest method to achieve more loot, they do not care what jobs are good / not good at, only what they can be made to do. ToAU RDM wasn't about RDM being a "better" healer, it was about RDM being able to do enough healing to win while contributing more (haste / refresh cycles).

[Dantedmc]

It wasn't MP issues, get off the MP train. WHM's were used if they were available but the demand was on RDM's for the simple reason that a RDM could do everything a WHM could do and then some. The fact that the RDM had to bust their a$$ and about fry their brain's wasn't even an afterthought to the party and LS leaders. Give a WHM, RDM and SCH infinite MP and Cure V and the RDM or SCH will be chosen every time for the simple reason that they are more versatile. White Mage can heal and only heal, they heal the best, they head the hardest, they heal the fastest, but in the end they only heal. If a RDM, SCH, or hell even SMN can heal, not the best, not the hardest, not the fastest, but if it's *enough* for a victory, then they'll be chosen over a WHM. Players do this for the same reason they did BLM/BRD in abyssea. A BRD can proc a bard's song weakness better then any BLM, yet you didn't see abyssea farming groups looking for BRDs. Instead they said "well, a BLM/BRD can do it well enough that we don't need the BRD, more loot for us". SCH's are now going apesh!t that SE is giving helix's to /SCH. Their not complaining about other jobs actually using them, their complaining because they might lose their position in /shout Voidwatch groups to BLM/SCH's.

That is how FFXI works in reality. Players will try to get by with the absolute least support possible for any event, they will seek the fastest method to achieve more loot, they do not care what jobs are good / not good at, only what they can be made to do. ToAU RDM wasn't about RDM being a "better" healer, it was about RDM being able to do enough healing to win while contributing more (haste / refresh cycles).

What exactly is sch going to contribute that makes it more viable than whm. It's not like sch can nuke and heal at the same time nor does it have all the black / white magic procs so you will need a whm and blm anyway. What is rdm gonna do throw out some debuffs / refresh II ? Please tell me these amazing things that will somehow make rdm and sch completely overtake whm.

Your last part really baffles me. You say it wasn't an mp issue then you turn around and say rdm contributed more with haste / refresh. Well whm had haste and refresh is all about mp. You also need enough mp to keep throwing out haste while performing all of your other duties. It was ALL about mp. Refresh and convert allowed rdm to sustain it's mp pool longer than any other mage unsupported. Whm before /sch and solace had 1 tic refresh from nobles tunic.

[Greatguardian]

Let me know when RDM can Curaga IV for free, bro.

Edit: Or at all.

[Moonracer]

Yes, it does take an incredible amount of deliberation to give jobs access to certain spells and how potent it should be.

Wanting to pull out one of the early posts and pull it back out then eh? And actually yes it does take deliberation, because despite everything, it takes balance. Do something too much and it overpowers that particular thing, it unbalances everything else. Alright, lets say they DID give RDM and SCH Cure V, and made its potency equal or even close to WHM, which is what everyone wants it seems. What then? Would RDM be satisfied? No, they wouldnt. RDM wont be satisfied until they're up and over WHM, because of "versatility" they think they deserve to have more credit than WHM. The fact of the matter is that all these RDM's that are bitching about wanting Cure V, are focusing on ONE aspect of the entire damn job. If anyone has someone to blame for rdm's decline (not that there was a decline, people are just blind) its the RDM's themselves for constraining themselves to only one position, and not allowing themselves to accept, and excel elsewhere.

[Lilia]

saevel

BLUs refresh outside abyss

with autorefresh/equip/spell blu can have easy ~8 mp/tick >.< add that to your list

[Lilia]

Wanting to pull out one of the early posts and pull it back out then eh? And actually yes it does take deliberation, because despite everything, it takes balance. Do something too much and it overpowers that particular thing, it unbalances everything else. Alright, lets say they DID give RDM and SCH Cure V, and made its potency equal or even close to WHM, which is what everyone wants it seems. What then? Would RDM be satisfied? No, they wouldnt. RDM wont be satisfied until they're up and over WHM, because of "versatility" they think they deserve to have more credit than WHM. The fact of the matter is that all these RDM's that are bitching about wanting Cure V, are focusing on ONE aspect of the entire damn job. If anyone has someone to blame for rdm's decline (not that there was a decline, people are just blind) its the RDM's themselves for constraining themselves to only one position, and not allowing themselves to accept, and excel elsewhere.

Uhm... you know were in SE´ stance on cure V?

i can start enfeebling or buffs or anything, but this is for a other post.

[Moonracer]

Uhm... you know were in SE´ stance on cure V?

i can start enfeebling or buffs or anything, but this is for a other post.

Ya I know where we're at, if you read back from the beginning, rdms wanna complain here too.

[Ophannus]

Why is SE making it so that WHM is a NECESSARY job? It used to be PLD was a NECESSARY job because no other job could tank. Then SE adjusted NIN and other jobs to make them able to tank too. Since WHM is the only real healer, only WHM are invited to heal. Why should every party >NEED< a WHM but no other job is ever 'NEEDED'. Every party NEEDS a WHM but not evey party NEEDS a RDM or NEEDS a SCH or NEEDS a DRK or DRG. Why can we replace a DD with 17 other DD jobs that do fine but when it comes to healer WHM is the only job? If you need a nuker PUP, SMN and SCH work. If you need a buffer, you have BRD or COR. If you need a DD you have RNG WAR THF DNC MNK BLU DRG DRK SAM BST NIN SAM etc. But when it comes to healer it's WHM or nothing. Even other jobs can tank besides PLD, and while PLD is "THE DESIGNATED MAIN TANK", it's actually the worst tank unless the player has 2 Empyreans-Sword and Shield or an Empyrean Sword+Relic Shield.

[Ophannus]

I get it. WHM IS THE DESIGNATED MAIN HEALER. But then why give them high level Enfeebling but not give the DESIGNATED MAIN ENFEEBLER high level healing? Why can WHM can Addle but RDM can't get Cure V?

By making WHM the only viable healer, you solidify and assure that every party will need one and their spot in an alliance is absolutely assured. No other job in the entire game has that kind of priority. Any other job can be replaced by another job to fill that function almost exactly. A Damage Dealer can be replaced with almost 1 of 17 other jobs. At least 4 or 5 jobs can 'tank'. 2-3 Jobs can be 'buffers'. But when it comes to healers, there's only 1, because WHM are special and even though they're designated healers SE gives them high level nukes and high level enfeebling, but wont give the designated Enfeebler high level healing. If things aren't changed any other mage that subs RDM at 99 can do 99% of anything a RDM can do except gravity or refresh 2 both of which are so niche and situationally useless these days. Refresh 2 is nice for self cast but most mages sub RDM anyway and abuse our full strength convert. 99BRD/48RDM will not only have their marches but also have Haste as well. So RDM is forevr doomed to have nice buffs that it can only cast on itself, absolutely worthless in an endgame alliance.

[Ophannus]

Even DNC BLU and DRG have equivalents of Cure V, so what's the big deal with giving it to RDM and SCH anyway?

[saevel]

saevel

BLUs refresh outside abyss

with autorefresh/equip/spell blu can have easy ~8 mp/tick >.< add that to your list

Well WHM, RDM and SCH all have some forms of self-refresh, that's why I left it out. As a RDM/NIN I have 10mp/tick in idle gear and 7mp/tick in TP gear. Then you start talking about BRD's and RDM's in the same party as the healer, our WHM tends to run around with 20+mp/tick outside abyssea.

This is all about what you can get away with, currently our tank party is PLD PLD RDM BRD WHM <other>. The BRD and RDM (me) are there to support the healer and tanks. What people are wanting is that the RDM gets Cure V and thus you can kick the WHM out for another melee or BRD. This gets very important when you start talking MNK tanks as super buffing them actually makes a difference. The melee parties are usually DD DD DD DD DD WHM, the BLM / SMN party usually has the COR inside it. Giving RDM Cure V will replace the DD's WHM with a RDM.

And to the guy who's practicing selective reading. MP was never the issue with WHM, RDM or SCH for healing. The problem was time. We can only cast a single spell at a time, and those spells tend to have annoying cast / recast times. A RDM can simply do more then a WHM in any given block of time, the WHM still heals better / harder but it was the RDM who could spam Cure IV / III / Haste / Erase / Paralyna / Silena faster (back at 75). Doing so game the RDM player a huge headache and we constantly talked about being "burned out", but LS leaders didn't care about that.

Thus if you give RDM Cure V they'll be able to spam Cure V / Cure IV / <everything else> faster then a WHM can. WHM is still the better healer, RDM becomes the more versatile healer.

[Alhanelem]

I do not feel cure 4 is powerful enough to be any job's primary cure at 95, much less 99. As it stands blue mage and dragoon can consistently produce more powerful cures than rdm, pld, or sch (okay, to be fair sch can top blu, but will eventually run out of stratagems). It would be a stretch to say anyone subbing whm can cure as well as these three affected jobs, but it certainly takes less work to overcome the difference than it ever has in the past. The line between blm/whm and sch in particular seems more blurred than it ought to these days.
I can understand the desire to keep WHM distinct in it's premiere healing capability, but it's getting to the point where it is the ONLY capable healing job -even outside the realm of inflated hp that is abyssea. If cure 5 cannot be given to rdm, sch, and pld then maybe a comparable cure without fixed enmity and a slightly longer recast time would be acceptable? This addition would add the kind of clutch cure you need in a desperate situation while still making it a risk to use, the same way big cures used to be balanced in the old days, with enmity generation.

I won't dispute cure V may be too much given to every healer job, but I adamantly believe cure IV is too little.
I'd just like to quote this, because I think this describes the situation to a T.

[Dantedmc]

This is all about what you can get away with, currently our tank party is PLD PLD RDM BRD WHM <other>. The BRD and RDM (me) are there to support the healer and tanks. What people are wanting is that the RDM gets Cure V and thus you can kick the WHM out for another melee or BRD. This gets very important when you start talking MNK tanks as super buffing them actually makes a difference. The melee parties are usually DD DD DD DD DD WHM, the BLM / SMN party usually has the COR inside it. Giving RDM Cure V will replace the DD's WHM with a RDM.

What exactly is the rdm doing in the tank party(I'm assuming this is voidwatch)? That's the first job I would take out. Your Refresh II isn't needed. I even tell the brd to prioritize giving me scherzo over ballads as the whm if the brd is busy because mp doesn't run out in that event.

Your melee parties also seemed messed up. It's supposed to be DD DD DD DD whm cor/brd/smn in the last slot. Putting a cor in the blm pt is a waste. What exactly is it going to give them? In the melee pt cor can give tact / misers or the brd can scherzo + something, the smn can give EA in either the tank or dd pt. Also why would it be bad if the DD's pt could substitute a sch or rdm in for a whm? There are different types of DD in the party why can't there be different healers?




And to the guy who's practicing selective reading. MP was never the issue with WHM, RDM or SCH for healing. The problem was time. We can only cast a single spell at a time, and those spells tend to have annoying cast / recast times. A RDM can simply do more then a WHM in any given block of time, the WHM still heals better / harder but it was the RDM who could spam Cure IV / III / Haste / Erase / Paralyna / Silena faster (back at 75). Doing so game the RDM player a huge headache and we constantly talked about being "burned out", but LS leaders didn't care about that.

Now I'm not agreeing with your statement that mp wasn't the issue, but considering whm has divine benision / +2 legs and thus capped casting time / recast on nas / erases I don't see how rdm will be casting faster on that. Whm can also spam cure fine now when it needs to. Haste is subbable /whm and soon to be /rdm and even then the whm can keep up fine.


Thus if you give RDM Cure V they'll be able to spam Cure V / Cure IV / <everything else> faster then a WHM can. WHM is still the better healer, RDM becomes the more versatile healer.

Whm can get plenty of CCT so no rdm will not be spamming cures faster and what exactly is <everything else>?

[Greatguardian]

Wait, Saevel's Melee RDM/NIN is in the tank party in Voidwatch? Seriously?

Oh, that's funny.

[ManaKing]

Main Curing on a RDM isn't interesting in the slightest to me. I'm fine with low-man healing and back up healing. If Cure 3 and 4 are adjusted to be less outdated then mission accomplished.

The other neglected parts of RDM are much more of a concern to myself and others. Enfeebling would be my primary concern at this point.

[saevel]

What exactly is the rdm doing in the tank party(I'm assuming this is voidwatch)? That's the first job I would take out. Your Refresh II isn't needed. I even tell the brd to prioritize giving me scherzo over ballads as the whm if the brd is busy because mp doesn't run out in that event.

Your melee parties also seemed messed up. It's supposed to be DD DD DD DD whm cor/brd/smn in the last slot. Putting a cor in the blm pt is a waste. What exactly is it going to give them? In the melee pt cor can give tact / misers or the brd can scherzo + something, the smn can give EA in either the tank or dd pt. Also why would it be bad if the DD's pt could substitute a sch or rdm in for a whm? There are different types of DD in the party why can't there be different healers?




Now I'm not agreeing with your statement that mp wasn't the issue, but considering whm has divine benision / +2 legs and thus capped casting time / recast on nas / erases I don't see how rdm will be casting faster on that. Whm can also spam cure fine now when it needs to. Haste is subbable /whm and soon to be /rdm and even then the whm can keep up fine.



Whm can get plenty of CCT so no rdm will not be spamming cures faster and what exactly is <everything else>?

It is VW and you obviously have no idea what your doing. Melee's spend most of their time outside aoe range unless their called in to proc something or we're going to proc HV !! for the blitz light bonus. The RDM is there to Refresh the WHM and the PLDs, and yes the refresh is needed along with our G.horn BRD. The COR is there to do the same to the BLMs and SMNs so they can proc lights. The only buffer I'd put with the melee's is a BRD for the -PDT song for when they have to proc something.

Your suggestions sound like a zerg run, which we sometimes do when we just want a win and don't care about drops. Then it's PD and swapping a 2hr BRD around with SCH's embrava. Otherwise you focus on procing weakness's to build lights, you do want drops yes?

[saevel]

Last three WS's last run we did. Just did SS of what was in the log after we won and were warping out.

http://i537.photobucket.com/albums/ff338/palladin9479/FFXI%20Pics/IldebrannCDC.png

Let the hating and name calling begin.

[Dantedmc]

It is VW and you obviously have no idea what your doing. Melee's spend most of their time outside aoe range unless their called in to proc something or we're going to proc HV !! for the blitz light bonus. The RDM is there to Refresh the WHM and the PLDs, and yes the refresh is needed along with our G.horn BRD. The COR is there to do the same to the BLMs and SMNs so they can proc lights. The only buffer I'd put with the melee's is a BRD for the -PDT song for when they have to proc something.

Your suggestions sound like a zerg run, which we sometimes do when we just want a win and don't care about drops. Then it's PD and swapping a 2hr BRD around with SCH's embrava. Otherwise you focus on procing weakness's to build lights, you do want drops yes?

That's funny because the groups I go with get capped lights most of the time unless there's a proc that we don't have. I've also beaten all the VWNMS except Aello and one tier2 because I haven't been able to get a group for them.The melee are allowed to go in whenever the nm is hq procced and their fanatic's is up as well as when they have a proc called or when damage needs to be done to take down the nm. As long as the DD have appropriate hp gear and/or -dt gear they can stay in there for a while. One time the mnk pt wiped to kaggen and the drk in my pt tanked kaggen until it was dead because he had appropriate hp and -dt gear.

I'll say it again. You're fooling yourself if you think someone needs your refresh especially with a ghorn bard. So your saying a whm needs:

7 from rdm
mballad 3 + 4 (ghorn / +2 legs) / mballad 2+4 or 13 tic refresh from the brd
a non ghorn brd can give 3 +2 (+1 ballad harp / +2 legs) and 2 +2 or 9 tic. (Though personally I tell the brd to give me scherzo / mages 3 or just scherzo when busy. I only tell the brd to give me double ballads when I get weakened)
the refresh that the whm already has and +2 legs
2x lucid ethers IIs / manapowders that get restored everytime you get a hq proc and have a chance with a nq.

Your whm must REALLY suck if it needs all that.

I'll say it again cor in the blm pt is a waste. The cor can give 2-4 refresh and some mab or fc to the blms(I may be forgetting some piece of gear that will raise this amout). Where as it could give regain / save tp to the DD pt. That along with monarch's drink and the voidwrought atma make tp gain crazy. The blms should also have the kis granting 2x lucid ether and 2x manapowder that can be restored. The lucid ethers are 1000 mp and the manapowders are 25% mp to anyone in the radius. 50% / person x 6 = 300% of someone's mp pool. Blm can also have up to 7 tic gear refresh and convert / refresh from /rdm.

I also like who you didn't answer the whole part of my quote talking about what rdm is going to spam faster than whm.

[Kitkat]

Last three WS's last run we did. Just did SS of what was in the log after we won and were warping out.

Let the hating and name calling begin.

There is a "New Topic" option on the forums if you want to post shots of melee damage. This is a topic about the ever-lasting talk of Cure V, so do keep on topic about it. If someone is snipping remarks about your play style, ignore them rather than fall for their baiting of you and stay on topic.


On-Topic: While I've seen the OP, I don't understand why people keep hanging up on the cure potency when that quote also states they are looking into possibly changing how healing is affected by Mnd and Skill as well as adjusting the hard-caps which were originally meant for lvl 75 cap. I would hope these adjustments have enmity adjustments so that the spells remain equal to the enmity they are now rather than increasing in enmity. I would much rather see a Cure IV doing upwards of ~700hp and Cure III doing around 350~400 range ideally.

As for why WHM was phased out in the past, it most certainly was due to mp-related reasons. Where a rdm could simply use Dalm+Relic head or Morrigans+relic head +refresh and easily handle TP burn pt's for hours on end, a whm would run out of mp. Whm was more useful in areas that had refresh support for them, but since 80+ this has been reversed to whm taking the place they were meant to as primary healer.

While giving Rdm Cure V would not absolutely unbalance this, being as Cure V still is not substantial enough to handling the AOE happy behavior of NM's theses days, it would phase Whm out of certain aspects of play and further encourage low-man activities. This is assuming the fact that full potency geared whm Cure V does double what Cure IV does currently at roughly 1.55x the mp cost of Cure IV and very little hate generation.

I think one of the main concerns of giving rdm cure V isn't so much party utilization as it is self-sustaining utilization for those who do enjoy soloing, much to the same reason of higher regen spells.

[Dohati]

take it from a guy who has whm lvled, but not sch or rdm and never plans to lvl either of those jobs: please give rdm cure5. i guess sch can have it too :o but i don't think they need it nearly as bad since they can play blm-style so much better than rdm.

[Vaness]

Last three WS's last run we did. Just did SS of what was in the log after we won and were warping out.

http://i537.photobucket.com/albums/ff338/palladin9479/FFXI%20Pics/IldebrannCDC.png

Let the hating and name calling begin.
That's very cool, but when you do VW you don't want DMG you want procc so you can possibly (like never) get decent drop.

Now pls go back with the whm and cast refresh and haste for once, kthx.

Nice try though.

[saevel]

There is a "New Topic" option on the forums if you want to post shots of melee damage. This is a topic about the ever-lasting talk of Cure V, so do keep on topic about it. If someone is snipping remarks about your play style, ignore them rather than fall for their baiting of you and stay on topic.


On-Topic: While I've seen the OP, I don't understand why people keep hanging up on the cure potency when that quote also states they are looking into possibly changing how healing is affected by Mnd and Skill as well as adjusting the hard-caps which were originally meant for lvl 75 cap. I would hope these adjustments have enmity adjustments so that the spells remain equal to the enmity they are now rather than increasing in enmity. I would much rather see a Cure IV doing upwards of ~700hp and Cure III doing around 350~400 range ideally.

As for why WHM was phased out in the passed, it most certainly was due to mp-related reasons. Where a rdm could simply use Dalm+Relic head or Morrigans+relic head +refresh and easily handle TP burn pt's for hours on end, a whm would run out of mp. Whm was more useful in areas that had refresh support for them, but since 80+ this has been reversed to whm taking the place they were meant to as primary healer.

While giving Rdm Cure V would not absolutely unbalance this, being as Cure V still is not substantial enough to handling the AOE happy behavior of NM's theses days, it would phase Whm out of certain aspects of play and further encourage low-man activities. This is assuming the fact that full potency geared whm Cure V does double what Cure IV does currently at roughly 1.55x the mp cost of Cure IV and very little hate generation.

I think one of the main concerns of giving rdm cure V isn't so much party utilization as it is self-sustaining utilization for those who do enjoy soloing, much to the same reason of higher regen spells.

You just talked about TP burn parties, we're talking about end game style events. MP wasn't an issue because you'd have a BRD and RDM around for Ballads + Refresh. Shells eventually asked themselves why bring two "healers" just for one to refresh the other and started to drop the WHM in favor of adding another support job to the tank party. This mentality started with the melee parties (DD DD DD DD BRD RDM) and eventually made it to the tank party. All of "end game" was turning into a TP burn zerg fest. That is why SE made the lights / proc system in Abyssea, it was to counter the mentality of "just bring more melee" for all events. Or did you miss all the Samurai hating from other jobs during pre-abyssea era?

I'm personally hoping SE adjusts the formula's so that Healing Magic skill actually means something. That's half the problem now with giving RDM Cure V. We'd hit the softcap same as WHM and the scaling to hard cap is so crappy that we end up 20~30 HP behind a WHM with the same cure pot. That shouldn't happen ~ever~. WHM should have a built in JT for enhancing cure potency along with other perks. WHM should be able to zap off multiple status ailments. But until that happens giving RDM Cure V would just turn it into a WHM-1 again and ToAU 75 era mentality would repeat.

[saevel]

That's very cool, but when you do VW you don't want DMG you want procc so you can possibly (like never) get decent drop.

Now pls go back with the whm and cast refresh and haste for once, kthx.

Nice try though.

Haha knew the haters would show up. It was a PD zerg to get the win for members, that particular VWNM doesn't drop anything good so we don't bother building max lights. On things we actually want a drop from we'll stay back and build lights, only run in during a HV proc and so forth. Then at the end we just pop temps / drinks and finish it off.

The whole purpose of that was to silence the "lolMeleeRDM in Voidwatch" peoples. You don't melee on the NM full time, you support from the back and only melee when it's time.

Anyhow back to the communal drinking of the hateraid along with slashing of wrists out of protest for no Cure V.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

That's very cool, but when you do VW you don't want DMG you want procc so you can possibly (like never) get decent drop.

Now pls go back with the whm and cast refresh and haste for once, kthx.

Nice try though.

Seriously, troll elsewhere.. No one here cares, not even a little.

[Vaness]

You obviously cared enough to answer^^

[Vaness]

Haha knew the haters would show up. It was a PD zerg to get the win for members, that particular VWNM doesn't drop anything good so we don't bother building max lights. On things we actually want a drop from we'll stay back and build lights, only run in during a HV proc and so forth. Then at the end we just pop temps / drinks and finish it off.

The whole purpose of that was to silence the "lolMeleeRDM in Voidwatch" peoples. You don't melee on the NM full time, you support from the back and only melee when it's time.

Anyhow back to the communal drinking of the hateraid along with slashing of wrists out of protest for no Cure V.

As much as I want to be nice with you, I think that there is no reason for a rdm meleeing in VW.I could careless in abyssea on some random monsters, but VW really?Mage Jobs are meant to stand back and support the melee, I personally wouldn't mind if 100% of the mage community could melee, do their jobs at 250% and don't die due to being in range of all the nasty moves.But it's deffinitly not the case.ALL the rdm I've been with since abyssea is out seemed to have completly forgetted their support role jobs as healers and enfeeblers.Keeping haste and refresh on is hard apparently.

Don't take me wrong though, I was a full time rdm for nearly 3 years before abyssea came out and I don't like what it became.But melee rdm, seriously?I think you are the one throlling sir.

Stop Crying about not getting Cure 5 and give some non-pathethic suggestions instead, that will show how a dedicaced RDM you are.

[Vaness]

Please square enix give redmage cure V because Cure IV cures like sh*t when I full time my leet almace.

QQ to the f*cking Q

[Spiritreaver]

As much as I want to be nice with you, I think that there is no reason for a rdm meleeing in VW.I could careless in abyssea on some random monsters, but VW really?Mage Jobs are meant to stand back and support the melee, I personally wouldn't mind if 100% of the mage community could melee, do their jobs at 250% and don't die due to being in range of all the nasty moves.But it's deffinitly not the case.ALL the rdm I've been with since abyssea is out seemed to have completly forgetted their support role jobs as healers and enfeeblers.Keeping haste and refresh on is hard apparently.

Don't take me wrong though, I was a full time rdm for nearly 3 years before abyssea came out and I don't like what it became.But melee rdm, seriously?I think you are the one throlling sir.

Stop Crying about not getting Cure 5 and give some non-pathethic suggestions instead, that will show how a dedicaced RDM you are.

Maybe i misread most of saevel's posts in this thread; but isnt he doing exactly what you are saying to do in the bolded bit of your post?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Wow, apparently SE making it clear RDM isn't a cure/enhancing bot isn't clear enough for some people. Tragic!

Now do me a favor and make sure Mr. Block is still okay, I always do worry about him.

[Vaness]

Maybe i misread most of saevel's posts in this thread; but isnt he doing exactly what you are saying to do in the bolded bit of your post?
I said non-pathetic and no he haven't.

[Vaness]

Wow, apparently SE making it clear RDM isn't a cure/enhancing bot isn't clear enough for some people. Tragic!

Now do me a favor and make sure Mr. Block is still okay, I always do worry about him.
Yeah because obviously SE want you to replace wars.
Asking to help support the whm and use the spell named haste and refresh isn't asking to be an cure/enhancing bot, it's asking you to do your job as a support role.

[Spiritreaver]

I said non-pathetic and no he haven't.

Well everyone has to make their own calls on qualitative views i guess. Anyways, carry on with the rage. Oh and it should have been 'hasn't' over haven't i think.

[Neisan_Quetz]

English isn't first language etc.

[Spiritreaver]

English isn't first language etc.

Most likely, but if you're gonna storm into a thread like that, take the time to fine-tune your syntax a bit i say.

[ManaKing]

I think RDMs not getting Cure V is the correct step so long as they are going to adjust the formulas for curing magic. I'm much more interested in my character's native cure magic actually being a factor in my play, as opposed to be being equally matched with everyone that is /'almost anything with curing magic'.

Full-time curing? No thanks, I average around a C- in that, so I'll just make sure to contribute to healing while doing other things.

[saevel]

Maybe i misread most of saevel's posts in this thread; but isnt he doing exactly what you are saying to do in the bolded bit of your post?

Their just hating. Lots of haters on here, been that way since 2004, gonna be that way till the game servers shutdown.

Their the people who the moment they see a RDM with a sword they will freak out and go nuts. Their under the belief that RDM's have a hidden job trait that gives the monster +5 levels, 200 defense 1000 attack and 300tp/tick regain if we hit it. Any attempt to say otherwise has them frothing at the mouth and calling all sorts of insults. And what really gets under their skins isn't just a RDM daring to melee, but one who actually succeeds at a hybrid play style. They go crazy, spew insults and go into a state of mental shock and denial. I've learned over nearly 8 years to just tune them out and mute whenever possible.

[Kitkat]

You just talked about TP burn parties, we're talking about end game style events. MP wasn't an issue because you'd have a BRD and RDM around for Ballads + Refresh. Shells eventually asked themselves why bring two "healers" just for one to refresh the other and started to drop the WHM in favor of adding another support job to the tank party. This mentality started with the melee parties (DD DD DD DD BRD RDM) and eventually made it to the tank party. All of "end game" was turning into a TP burn zerg fest. That is why SE made the lights / proc system in Abyssea, it was to counter the mentality of "just bring more melee" for all events. Or did you miss all the Samurai hating from other jobs during pre-abyssea era?

Sigh, first off...you still need to learn to read through the entire post before presuming what the entirety of it is.



As for why WHM was phased out in the past, it most certainly was due to mp-related reasons. Where a rdm could simply use Dalm+Relic head or Morrigans+relic head +refresh and easily handle TP burn pt's for hours on end, a whm would run out of mp. Whm was more useful in areas that had refresh support for them, but since 80+ this has been reversed to whm taking the place they were meant to as primary healer.

SE encouraged this style of game-play by introducing content that made traditional parties prior to ToAU obsolete because it was "too slow." Mobs also gained resistance to SC making them less worth-while to plan for/around over tossing a bunch of DD's at it. Additional changes to 2hand stat scaling (from .5 to 1.0 then down to .75) also compounded this as they didn't adjust previous content in reflection of this making it easy to toss DD at it. Then they further compounded this by instating time-limits on killing things, meaning killing faster was preferred over killing slower. These are all changes that SE instigated through various changes over a span of one expansion pack. Naturally players will adapt to this mentality in response to SE making it easier for them to do this. Then again I guess it slipped your mind how horrible 2hander performed prior to all this which included Sam and forced them to use /thf to make sure those big damage one-hitters landed with a punch. Do try to remember the entire span of the game and all aspects before you simply say players made it that way because they didn't, they adapted to that way....SE made it that way.

The only way Cure V is unbalanced is if it was assencionable, which it is not. Thus it is only useful for curing one target for massive amount of HP and virtually no hate. Due to the function of most endgame content as of now, even rdm/sch isn't going to become game-breaking with this spell. Since it still can't fill the role of a whm due to limited AOE cure spells, lack of whm specific buff enhancements, and various other whm specific qualities including JA. So, no...rdm will never outshine whm again due to these various reasons even with Cure V. Does this mean I think rdm should get it? No, because of other reasons that are outside of the endgame utility functions. Hence why I have supported this tid-bit from camate's post:



However, the solution isn’t to limit the functionality of those jobs that assist with curing. So one possibility we’re considering is increasing the influence of the healing skill and MND, as well as increasing the HP recovery amount more than it is currently.

[Vaness]

Their just hating. Lots of haters on here, been that way since 2004, gonna be that way till the game servers shutdown.

Their the people who the moment they see a RDM with a sword they will freak out and go nuts. Their under the belief that RDM's have a hidden job trait that gives the monster +5 levels, 200 defense 1000 attack and 300tp/tick regain if we hit it. Any attempt to say otherwise has them frothing at the mouth and calling all sorts of insults. And what really gets under their skins isn't just a RDM daring to melee, but one who actually succeeds at a hybrid play style. They go crazy, spew insults and go into a state of mental shock and denial. I've learned over nearly 8 years to just tune them out and mute whenever possible.
Holly shit, you assume alot.

#1 I don't know you so I can't obviously not be "hatin" and I am not calling you out on personal vendetta or anything.

#2 We aren't freaking out because we see you with a sword, we freak out because you think you are a war and your post seems to lead towards a person that don't care about anything except how supposely leet you are as a melee.

#3 RDM always has been an hybrid job, being able to melee decently, cure/support and nukes.It's not JUST melee or just healer or just nuker, it's an awesome combo of all those quality together.

#4 lol just lol

I'm going to leave this here because Saevel retardness has eaten all my braincells, now I understand why everyone tells me to stay away from official forums.

[saevel]

l????

Seriously what does that have to do with this? Your going off the deep end into the woods and over the mountain here. I'm willing to have a decent discussion / debate but not your starting to freak out.

There is nothing here that hasn't been gone over already for the past year or so. SE doesn't want RDM to have Cure V because it'll make them too good at healing vs White Mage, they also do not want SCH to have it for the same reason. The dev's are pretty much the closet thing this game has to a deity, you kinda can't argue with them. If you dislike their reasoning then cancel your account and go somewhere else.

You tried arguing with TP burn arguments back when RDM was prioritized over WHM for merits, this was done for MP reasons due to RDM being an energizer bunny back then. End Game fights were not 2~4 hour marathon fights, WHM didn't need to maintain an infinite supply of MP, only enough to last for one fight. Also you had BRD's and RDM's maintaining the WHM's MP pool, until groups found out that they could kick the WHM and replace them with a COR or another BRD for similiar results, even on HNMs. Players are what turned the game into melee zerg fests, not SE.

[Neisan_Quetz]

SE released TP burnable fodder mobs and more HNMs heavily resistant to magic, wtf did they think was going to happen, people were going to Magic burst Greater Colibri?

For exp and most mobs that didn't have dangerous AoE only turned into a 'melee fest' as you put it because they (players) finally realized SC+MB was and still is bad damage compared to simply WS at 100%.

[Kitkat]

Seriously what does that have to do with this? Your going off the deep end into the woods and over the mountain here. I'm willing to have a decent discussion / debate but not your starting to freak out.

No, I am not freaking out. I am actually explaining in a reasonable and logical way just how and why whm was phased out pre-abyssea. The function of WHM at that time was not needed due to the build of the game and why rdm filled the role meant for whm.


There is nothing here that hasn't been gone over already for the past year or so. SE doesn't want RDM to have Cure V because it'll make them too good at healing vs White Mage, they also do not want SCH to have it for the same reason. The dev's are pretty much the closet thing this game has to a deity, you kinda can't argue with them. If you dislike their reasoning then cancel your account and go somewhere else.

I would hope you are kidding given what all whm has gained since 75 that is retro-active into as early as lvl 50 for whm. Rdm can no longer hope to compete with a whm due to passive traits, gear that complements barspells that not only surpass what rdm can give but up to 20, but also allows for straight out negation. Then you need to take into consideration what endgame content is all about compared to 75 endgame. Rdm can't handle these fights now even with cure V meaning you are blowing this way way way out of proportion to what the two jobs are capable side by side.


You tried arguing with TP burn arguments back when RDM was prioritized over WHM for merits, this was done for MP reasons due to RDM being an energizer bunny back then. End Game fights were not 2~4 hour marathon fights, WHM didn't need to maintain an infinite supply of MP, only enough to last for one fight. Also you had BRD's and RDM's maintaining the WHM's MP pool, until groups found out that they could kick the WHM and replace them with a COR or another BRD for similiar results, even on HNMs. Players are what turned the game into melee zerg fests, not SE.

No, I didn't argue actually, I produced facts as to why this became the norm and Whm became "obsolete." By your rationale, apparently players introduced cor into the game and made mobs easier to kill thus must have been the players making the content. Rather asinine to disregard the fact the SE was the ones who added the jobs, made the mobs, created all the content for the game then waited to see what players would do with it before making any further changes. Don't kid yourself, players adapt to the changes made to the game by the developers, thus it is the developers fault for making content and situations where a whm was less useful than a rdm for healing. This clearly shows that content is too easy meaning the requirement of certain jobs over a select few is unimportant. This is adaptability, which can further be seen when you look at today's endgame where a whm is in their rightful spot and a rdm can't hold a candle to it no matter how hard they try. One spell will not, and cannot, change this.

[saevel]

No, I am not freaking out. I am actually explaining in a reasonable and logical way just how and why whm was phased out pre-abyssea. The function of WHM at that time was not needed due to the build of the game and why rdm filled the role meant for whm.



I would hope you are kidding given what all whm has gained since 75 that is retro-active into as early as lvl 50 for whm. Rdm can no longer hope to compete with a whm due to passive traits, gear that complements barspells that not only surpass what rdm can give but up to 20, but also allows for straight out negation. Then you need to take into consideration what endgame content is all about compared to 75 endgame. Rdm can't handle these fights now even with cure V meaning you are blowing this way way way out of proportion to what the two jobs are capable side by side.



No, I didn't argue actually, I produced facts as to why this became the norm and Whm became "obsolete." By your rationale, apparently players introduced cor into the game and made mobs easier to kill thus must have been the players making the content. Rather asinine to disregard the fact the SE was the ones who added the jobs, made the mobs, created all the content for the game then waited to see what players would do with it before making any further changes. Don't kid yourself, players adapt to the changes made to the game by the developers, thus it is the developers fault for making content and situations where a whm was less useful than a rdm for healing. This clearly shows that content is too easy meaning the requirement of certain jobs over a select few is unimportant. This is adaptability, which can further be seen when you look at today's endgame where a whm is in their rightful spot and a rdm can't hold a candle to it no matter how hard they try. One spell will not, and cannot, change this.

You got blinders on so this discussion can't go any further. Short story, the numbers have already been run and the gap between RDM / SCH and WHM is very small. Many of the additions you speak of were added at 75 and they didn't make a lick of difference. I've already stated that it doesn't matter who's the best at healing only what is the minimum required to get a win. There is no argument that WHM cures the best / hardest and that a RDM with Cure V would just be spamming it using brute MP / healing. The argument is that the only thing needed for a win is Cure V, Erase, -na, Haste and some form of MP recovery. Everything else only makes it easier but leaders do not care how much stress / difficult the healer is under, they only want a win with the minimum required.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Their just hating. Lots of haters on here, been that way since 2004, gonna be that way till the game servers shutdown.

Their the people who the moment they see a RDM with a sword they will freak out and go nuts. Their under the belief that RDM's have a hidden job trait that gives the monster +5 levels, 200 defense 1000 attack and 300tp/tick regain if we hit it. Any attempt to say otherwise has them frothing at the mouth and calling all sorts of insults. And what really gets under their skins isn't just a RDM daring to melee, but one who actually succeeds at a hybrid play style. They go crazy, spew insults and go into a state of mental shock and denial. I've learned over nearly 8 years to just tune them out and mute whenever possible.

We have ourselves a winning post here.

[Kitkat]

Everything else only makes it easier but leaders do not care how much stress / difficult the healer is under, they only want a win with the minimum required.

Quite possibly the oddest thing you've mentioned considering the current loot system were more = more chances that people get something, if anything at all. Also, I would trust a whm to cure a "stressful situation" long before a rdm/sch with access to cure V. Better mp effeciency, less requirement to use JA if AOE heal is required, and not to mention the procs they have that a rdm doesn't. Sorry, new endgame doesn't cater to "least requirement to win" mentality anymore.

Infact I'd invite and use a blm and whm any day over a rdm/sch just due to limited procs alone. One spell wouldn't change my mind one bit either. Oh, and this is coming from an LS lead perspective. Rdm doesn't even have half the spells both the jobs would bring to the table for procs, they also don't have many of the ws procs, no JA proc....not much of anything which makes it required or even half-way useful. The only way I'd have a rdm/sch for VWNM....is if that is the only job that member has to offer. That is how useless rdm is right now, one spell is not going to change this.

[Lilia]

rdm/sch and cure V ga....

dont work with 4 why think work with V?
only 2 charges and recast for 1 charge is 2 min.?

i can cast 2 times, and then.....

SE, 3 charges please :)

[ManaKing]

Meh it's the same thing as always, people on forums are only looking to get the last word in. I really only care that something is being done about curing in this game. It's a step forward. Talking about white gate or how the game used to be, unless you are going to talk about how you liked something about it, isn't constructive at this point.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

rdm/sch and cure V ga....

dont work with 4 why think work with V?
only 2 charges and recast for 1 charge is 2 min.?

i can cast 2 times, and then.....

Accession does work with Cure IV, also I assume they mean if SCH got it too, then it would work with Accession. Just like Regen IV didn't work when only WHM got it, now SCH gets it on the test server it works.

[Lilia]

... i know cure 4 work with accession....

but you can 2 ga and then must wait 2 min. when you cast ssga you have only 1 for curaga

[Daniel_Hatcher]

... i know cure 4 work with accession....

but you can 2 ga and then must wait 2 min. when you cast ssga you have only 1 for curaga

Yes? what's your point, I'm confused. It's rare you need Ga's even on WHM.

[Spiritreaver]

Was browsing around and saw the following interesting post. The bolded bit is literally what i hear ingame from ppl all the time(since Abyssea was added almost) and i think SE has it in their collective head that this would be what happens if RDM and SCH got Cure V. I've read expressed opinions to the contrary here, but i think that this is is a view that is held by way more ppl than some of you guys want to admit.


You said it best Malamasa, the developers at SE for FFXI are one of the MOST clueless group that ever existed. They must have utter massive hate on ALL pet based jobs when it takes them years to fix the problems. I am glad the finally decided to do something for Pup after 5 YEARS!!! Beastmaster is finally good and competent now. But SMN and DRG still gets no love whatsoever, even if the updates should be VERY minor and it won't really break the game.

Please stop adjusting WHM... or giving that particular job more spells from other jobs... I long for the day when WHM is dead weight and not needed and when you can invite other jobs in their place like SCH and RDM.

RDM, SCH, DRK, RNG, COR and PLD should be their TOP priorities now along with SMN and DRG. At least they are working on SCH. Give Rdm and Sch their Cure V and call it a day please. The rest of Aby Elite jobs should be left untouched for awhile... I feel like they have very little clue on how to do job balancing on certain jobs but greatly favor certain jobs (yes thank you, WAR, MNK and NIN is awesome already - leave these jobs alone).

Was from this thread. (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/16753-Avatar-Favor-adjustments-please)

Personally i don't care one way or the other; but i just got to thinking if sentiments like this have made their way to SE and influenced their thinking on this issue. Or if they possibly came to a similar conclusion all on their own.

Also what struck me was how the bolded bit just kinda jumped out of nowhere. That thread was about a totally different issue, then BLAM->"WHM can suck it!!!!11111" Like i said, interetesting.

[Greatguardian]

Yes? what's your point, I'm confused. It's rare you need Ga's even on WHM.

You must not do Voidwatch much.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Was browsing around and saw the following interesting post. The bolded bit is literally what i hear ingame from ppl all the time(since Abyssea was added almost) and i think SE has it in their collective head that this would be what happens if RDM and SCH got Cure V. I've read expressed opinions to the contrary here, but i think that this is is a view that is held by way more ppl than some of you guys want to admit.



Was from this thread. (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/16753-Avatar-Favor-adjustments-please)

Personally i don't care one way or the other; but i just got to thinking if sentiments like this have made their way to SE and influenced their thinking on this issue. Or if they possibly came to a similar conclusion all on their own.

Also what struck me was how the bolded bit just kinda jumped out of nowhere. That thread was about a totally different issue, then BLAM->"WHM can suck it!!!!11111" Like i said, interetesting.

The only place RDM or SCH would get into with Cure V is Abyssea, and that's fast becoming old news.... Turning into nothing more than an EXP zone.

[cidbahamut]

Rabble rabble rabble
I wouldn't put much stock in that post you quoted. That person thinks Dragoon needs more love, which is silly. Dragoon is in a very happy place right now. The only problem DRG has these days is SE's new proc fetish, and that's not really a DRG problem at all.

[CapriciousOne]

Wanting to pull out one of the early posts and pull it back out then eh? And actually yes it does take deliberation, because despite everything, it takes balance. Do something too much and it overpowers that particular thing, it unbalances everything else. Alright, lets say they DID give RDM and SCH Cure V, and made its potency equal or even close to WHM, which is what everyone wants it seems. What then? Would RDM be satisfied? No, they wouldnt. RDM wont be satisfied until they're up and over WHM, because of "versatility" they think they deserve to have more credit than WHM. The fact of the matter is that all these RDM's that are bitching about wanting Cure V, are focusing on ONE aspect of the entire damn job. If anyone has someone to blame for rdm's decline (not that there was a decline, people are just blind) its the RDM's themselves for constraining themselves to only one position, and not allowing themselves to accept, and excel elsewhere.

As a RDM I am not looking to outshine anybody job because I personally am not the type that likes to do any one thing all the time. I like RDM because if it "versatility" as in "adjusting to the changing circumstances as battle progresses" of the definition. I might be satisfied with the adjustments made to the amount of HP cured from Healing skill and MND if that means that more of the MND and healing skill will be used to calculate the total amount healed. In others words if they are changing the formula to use 20%(healing skill/5) instead of 10% (healing/10) to increase the total hp cured them i am all for it and think it will be sufficient to sustain me and probably other RDM. However if it something other than that or a lesser amount that only gives like an additonal 50hp per cure than you may be right we will not be satisfied.

I dont need to out shine the WHM or BLM at their job I just need to be better and more self-suffiecient at my own by being given ADEQUATE tools to start with which Cure IV at its current state given the strength of mobs added update after update, simply IS NOT. In the end whether it is a RDM, BLM, WHM, or any other job for that matter that is all anybody really is asking for on here.

Also this ONE ASPECT is vital to the survivability of RDM hell all jobs so yes we are focused on it because simply but buffs or no buffs NO HEAL = DEATH and so does WEAK HEALING. And for the record it isnt me that is preventing me from satisfying other roles it is other people who keep complaining if a RDM doesn anything other than being somebody bitch as nurse that is WHM job. Who the hell are you what the hell have you been reading because you obviously missed a string of other threads discussing this very fact.

[Dekusuta]

Giving WHM short end of the Regen stick is still baffling to me.

We get the highest tier regens, and we have a relic and empyrean dedicated to 'buffing' it, not including a merit tier.

So SE has instead given SCH and RDM (via gear) the ability to extend regen duration and now the ability to cast it outside party.

SE seems to weigh HP recovered/tick too heavily, given in many situations those ticks are wasted with support jobs topping off your tanks. What a WHM needs is not to babysit a person on regen and the cast time/duration is just way too short for it. Giving WHM an ability to reduce the potency of regen by half but triple duration would make sense.

And they can keep the meritable and relic bonuses unchanged as an extra bonus for people who go for regen builds. But the pace of the game and the way party mechanics work simply put WHM at a disadvantage as a regen user. They take too long to cast and last too short. We're better off cure spamming, which many WHM resort to.

[Greatguardian]

Regens suck. Letting the enhancing jobs take the wheel with them isn't going to make them better. It's no real loss to White Mage.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Giving WHM short end of the Regen stick is still baffling to me.

We get the highest tier regens, and we have a relic and empyrean dedicated to 'buffing' it, not including a merit tier.

So SE has instead given SCH and RDM (via gear) the ability to extend regen duration and now the ability to cast it outside party.

SE seems to weigh HP recovered/tick too heavily, given in many situations those ticks are wasted with support jobs topping off your tanks. What a WHM needs is not to babysit a person on regen and the cast time/duration is just way too short for it. Giving WHM an ability to reduce the potency of regen by half but triple duration would make sense.

And they can keep the meritable and relic bonuses unchanged as an extra bonus for people who go for regen builds. But the pace of the game and the way party mechanics work simply put WHM at a disadvantage as a regen user. They take too long to cast and last too short. We're better off cure spamming, which many WHM resort to.

Wrong, SCH gets the highest tier with V coming at 99 (SCH Exclusive) and IV at 76..

Only SCH has any real bonus with Regen's with the upcoming updates. RDM only gets Regen II in no way does that make them any good.

[Dekusuta]

Wrong, SCH gets the highest tier with V coming at 99 (SCH Exclusive) and IV at 76..

Only SCH has any real bonus with Regen's with the upcoming updates. RDM only gets Regen II in no way does that make them any good.


That's news to me. care to provide a link.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

That's news to me. care to provide a link.

Regen V was found in the .dats stating SCH lvl.99 [http://www.juliandev.com/nov11test]

Regen IV is already available at 76 or 78 can't remember on the test server.

[Greatguardian]

http://www.juliandev.com/nov11test/

Your bracket got included in the url.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

http://www.juliandev.com/nov11test/

Your bracket got included in the url.

Ah, thanks!

[Zarabeth]

I wouldn't mind the lack of cure V and cure VI is they would just make our enfeebs work again!

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Regens suck. Letting the enhancing jobs take the wheel with them isn't going to make them better. It's no real loss to White Mage.Always said HP now is better then HP later.

[CapriciousOne]

Couldnt agree more but those small hp gains do add up over time and equal less cures for a RDM with composure at least. In addition, If RDM adds /dnc and Drain Samba 2 it would be a little better but to be honest unless they allow Regen tiers to stack all regens will always suck but that will never happen.

[ManaKing]

I wish we would get at least Regen III so I can composure it on myself. Regen II + StoneSkin can really stretch your MP in low man situations. Regen II, even with your full AF3+2 set bonus is still not very good.

[saevel]

Regen's are awesome, but don't look at them for immediate healing. If your casting Regen to recover someone's HP then it's already too late. Regen's are for proactive use, you cast them to recover damage the person will take over time. This is where I think SE screwed up the most, the duration is too low for their casting times. You cast them on people who are about to take damage, as long as your healer isn't capping them out constantly then Regen's have a purpose. Of course Regen II it pitiful at 95, SE should of gave RDM both Regen III and Regen IV naturally.