Add New Jobs to Relic Weapons - Past Due for an Explanation

[Briarb19]

Reading through the old topics, I still don't see a response from a rep on this and I'm sure some of us BLUs, SCHs, CORs, PUPs, and DNCs would still appreciate being given the same variety of end game weapons to choose from as the rest of the jobs in the game. None of the relic weapons applicable are particularly game breaking and the only one with a questionable enhancement is Spharai. Are there other balance issues that I'm not seeing?

BLU on Excalibur - Another toy at best, no balancing issues required.
DNC on Mandau - Basically just a variation of Twashtar.
SCH on Claustrum - Arguably, this is really not a strong weapon that offers anything game breaking to SCH, so there should be no issues adding them merely for completion's sake (sorry SCHs).
COR on Annihilator - A physical version of Armageddon. RNGs will still continue to pull ahead given all their abilities.
PUPs on Spharai - Ok, Counter IV would be broken on PUP. So just make it a MNK only enhancement. Done. Or give them a PUP only enhancement if it's not so much work. Either one works and handles the balance issue fine.

If the goal is/was to encourage us to work on mythics, it's not going to work, especially nowadays. There are two issues with mythics - the alex requirement and the fact that the majority of mythics have weak weapon skills that render the weapon impractical. Preventing us from making relics for one of our ToAU/WoG jobs will not fix these issues that turn people off from mythics. If you want people working on mythics, fix the alex (sounds like this is taken care of) and beef up their weapon skills across the board.

If the problem is simply story, is anybody really going to complain here if the story doesn't 'fit' perfect? I don't care if you simply add us on as an 'augment' after the entire quest is done on another job. Just allow us to use them. Or come up with some simple story for it. You did it for relic armor and no one complained, so why not relic weapons?

Allowing the ToAU/WoG jobs to use relics would only create a significant amount of additional end game content for players and allow those who enjoy those newer jobs the opportunity to take advantage of the dynamis changes along with the rest of the playerbase.

I really think this change should be considered or at least a reasonable explanation finally provided indicating why this change isn't possible.

And please people ... do not derail this and make it a topic about mythics or whether relics are 'worth' getting. Eventually a rep will at least comment if we just stay focused.

Edit:
Without some indication from SE on why they won't implement this, there's only so much we can do. In the mean time, here are some things to discuss:

- How adding ToAU/WoG jobs to relics will benefit those jobs
- How this change will benefit SE
- Suggestions in terms of ways to resolve the 'story' issue aspect of this change
- Fixes for possible 'balance' issues

[Juri_Licious]

I was thinking about making a thread of why DNC can't use the Relic Dagger.
They might as well do this.

Only way I can use Mercy Stroke currently is with the Clement skean.

[Krashport]

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20071228012827/ffxi/images/9/98/Yoichinoyumi.png

http://images.wikia.com/ffxi/images/4/4d/Trial2219.jpg
^ Gandiva, Why can't SAM use?

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100913025639/ffxi/images/f/f1/Trial2234.png

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070909021521/ffxi/images/6/65/Annihilator.jpg
^ Annihilator, Why can't COR use?

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080706232228/ffxi/images/b/bf/Mandau.png
^ Mandau, Why can't DNC use?

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100911104508/ffxi/images/c/c6/Trial1886.png
^ Twashtar, Why can't RDM use?

[Insaniac]

The OPs point is that every job has access to a mythic and emp but not relic. There's no need to do silly things like add RDM to twashtar or SAM to gandiva since they already have access to emps.

If they are worried about the counter effect on PUP they can just make it like the DW on suppanomimi. PUP would only get the "enhances counter" effect if they were /mnk.

I would love to see DNC added to Mandau so I would have a reason to level another job.

[MDenham]

And I'm not entirely convinced that giving PUP a weapon with Counter+5~11 (depending on how many trials you've thrown at it) is broken anyway. (Yes, that's all that the 'Enhances "Counter" effect IV' amounts to. Counter+11.)

[Dew]

Blu and Excalibur don't mix.

Excalibur is a Longsword.(Blu would just be weird with Excalibur.)

Mandau is Dagger. (Dnc's are mostly knifes, but would make some sense to add them.)

Yochi(Is kind of bows Sam can use.)

Gandiva(Is the rng only type of bow.)

Anni(Is like most guns so cor would make sense.)

Tawshtar(Se don't want rdms with Icecream cones.)

Spharai(Pup could work on this but, again not the type of h2h pup uses.)

Sch would more likely be on Mjollnir.(Reason its on Emp staff is cause se made magian clubs whm only.)

[Nightfyre]

And I'm not entirely convinced that giving PUP a weapon with Counter+5~11 (depending on how many trials you've thrown at it) is broken anyway. (Yes, that's all that the 'Enhances "Counter" effect IV' amounts to. Counter+11.)
This. PUP natively has neither counter traits nor Counterstance so it would be significantly less powerful for PUP than MNK; you'd have to go /MNK to get that kind of countering capability whereas the MNK can go /WAR.


Blu and Excalibur don't mix.

Excalibur is a Longsword.(Blu would just be weird with Excalibur.)
Have you never seen Almace? It looks absolutely ridiculous on BLU.

[cidbahamut]

Have you never seen Almace? It looks absolutely ridiculous on BLU.

Almace looks absolutely ridiculous on any job really.

[Atomic_Skull]

I was thinking about making a thread of why DNC can't use the Relic Dagger.
They might as well do this.

Only way I can use Mercy Stroke currently is with the Clement skean.


SE has given DNC too much of THF's stuff already. No more please.

[Insaniac]

Blu and Excalibur don't mix.

Excalibur is a Longsword.(Blu would just be weird with Excalibur.)The same could be said about RDM traditionally using fencing swords but they are on excal. Not to mention magian swords are long swords.

[Atomic_Skull]

RDM should get access to Twastar because it would make an excellent offhand weapon for Almace for melee RDM/NIN

[Zagen]

RDM should get access to Twastar because it would make an excellent offhand weapon for Almace for melee RDM/NIN

I hope you're trolling...

[Briarb19]

SE has given DNC too much of THF's stuff already. No more please.

Mandau is arguably no more powerful than Twashtar, so adding DNC would have literally zero impact on job balance between the two. Simply preferring DNC not be on it 'just because' should not be considered a valid reason for not adding the TOAU/WoG jobs to the relic weapons.

[Sparthos]

The PUP argument on Spharai just doesn't add up. Counter is going to be broken? For crying out loud it's a relic weapon, you should be at a clear advantage over non-relics.

With the advent of Almace, the Excalibur excuse no longer adds up either. Chant is superior to KoR and both weapons are longswords.

[Aana]

As soon as they added relic armor to dynamis, any lore based reason to exclude new jobs from relic weapons got debunked.

The weapon class distinctions have all been incredibly blurred. Almace is anything but a scimitar (excuse me 'curved blade' in SE words). Dnc used to be excluded from daggers. Now they can use Fusettos, auric dagger, clement skean, magnus dagger among others. They can even use the new Harpe class daggers which were exclusively thf/war.

Long story short, the more subtle weapon class distinctions have been completely blurred and are at this point a completely irrational reason to exclude classes from relics.

I cant imagine what would be so evil about putting cor on annihilator etc. None of the weapons in question are absurdly powerful in those jobs hands. Spharai just seems wierd on pup because the effect has nothing to do with pup in the slightest. Thats my only little gripe, but toss on some puppet buff and its fine.

[Hashmalum]

RDM should get access to Twastar because it would make an excellent offhand weapon for Almace for melee RDM/NINYou realize that relic-class weapons get no bonuses whatsoever when wielded off-hand, right? This was announced back when mythics were added, so people can't use a relic in one hand and a mythic in the other.

[Atomic_Skull]

Mandau is arguably no more powerful than Twashtar, so adding DNC would have literally zero impact on job balance between the two. Simply preferring DNC not be on it 'just because' should not be considered a valid reason for not adding the TOAU/WoG jobs to the relic weapons.

Relics are going to get another update at 99 while empyreans will most likely just get a bit of extra DMG and +stat like they did at 95.


You realize that relic-class weapons get no bonuses whatsoever when wielded off-hand, right? This was announced back when mythics were added, so people can't use a relic in one hand and a mythic in the other.

That only applies to relics and mythics. When equipped offhand Empyreans give their +stat bonus. Was tested and proven on BG a while ago. Besides which Twastar is the highest DPS weapon RDM/NIN could equip offhand, so it would be worth upgrading just for that alone.

[Aana]

Relics are going to get another update at 99 while empyreans will most likely just get a bit of extra DMG and +stat like they did at 95.

Sorry, but this is nothing but speculation unless you have secret insider information from SE. As its speculation, it is not a valid basis for argument. As it currently stands, there would be no significant difference between a twash dnc and a Mandau dnc. The weapons are near clones of each other. As a main thf from the day i started nearly 8 years ago, I feel the sting of the dnc vs thf thing, believe me i do and have often voiced distress over dnc stepping on thf's toes. But this is one where i feel otherwise. Twashtar is arguably MORE powerful in the hands of a dnc than mandau anyway. When they gave dnc and thf twash, any balance reason to exclude from mandau was tossed out the window.

But more on topic, I cannot really find any actual reason why 'new' jobs cannot be included. Dnc and sch (lore wise) are even in their prime during the war when the relic weapons were actually used. They are from the SAME geographic place and time. There was no reason to exclude those 2 jobs in the 1st place. Balance wise, lets check for a sec:

Anni: Cor. Not in any way game breaking. Wildfire is already far more powerful in cor hands anyway and shares a related 'low hate' idea (though anni's is more potent in that regard)

Mandau: Dnc. Clone of Twash and dnc doesnt get quite as much str gear as thf anyway. If twash isnt IMBA neither is mandau. Comon, BARD can use this for crying out loud.

Sword: Blu. KotR is weak. Almace debunked 'curved sword' idea. Blu already has an HP-related function with breath attacks. I cant wait to see HP build blus doing breath damage and light damage :P

Spharai: Pup. Far weaker than mythic and Empy in raw power for pups. Counter is a little off beat for pup, but not a deal breaker. Could use an automaton buff of some kind. Heck just give the counter to the puppet for melee frame and its cool.

Claustrum/Mjollnir: Sch. C+ in both weapon classes but lets be honest. Both of these weapons are terrible anyway so i really couldnt care less which one has sch on it. This would only be for completion's sake.

So what are the reasons NOT to have it:

*Balance issues: None of these weapons will break a job from a balance standpoint. The most 'useful' one would be cor on Anni and that is certainly not game breaking in the slightest.

*Lore!: 2 of these jobs are designed during the time and place of the weapons and should be included on that basis alone. Relic armor somehow made it into the other dimension for Cor/pup/blu. Not really holding much water at this point.

*Wrong weapon type (Dnc dagger, longsword blu etc): The subtle weapon class distinctions have been completely undone since 75 removing that argument in its entirety.
-Blu has lots of 'longswords' now. Magian and otherwise.
-Dnc has daggers and even harps out the wazoo (mentioned in previous post).
-Pup is 'generally' excluded from knuckle and cesti weapons, but can still have pup only knuckles (scogan's knuckles), and a number of others from 75 and up (pugulists, simian fists etc). 90+ They even get on every new cesti class h2h. 90+ the only weapons they CANT use are mnk mythic and relic.

Also, ALL those jobs can use the weapons giving the WS which are of the same type as the relic itself which universallly undoes the 'weapon type' idea. They can even get the WS.

TLDR: I have not actually heard any logical reason why the new jobs should be excluded at this point.

[Alhanelem]

Just another QQ thread about how this or that relic the player already owns isn't useable on some other job they leveled. JUst get the (#$^% empyrean, it's not like it isn't better anyway. I'm getting tired of the periodic "wah wah it's not fair <job> can't use <relic>!"

Some relics's weapon categories aren't strictly compatible with the category a job uses.

TLDR: I have not actually heard any logical reason why the new jobs need to be included at this point. Who honestly cares? In basically every case of a relic that's not available on a new job, the empyrean is better anyway.

It is extremely rare for jobs to be added to gear after the fact. Each time new jobs came out, they were only added to existing gear in accordance with the category of armor they would typically wear. Anything that broke with that tradition was generally added after the job came out with that job already on it. There is minimal precendent, if any, of jobs being added to any gear after the release of the job.

Out of new jobs, my main is PUP. I don't even want spharai on it. Empy would be better, and I don't even want the weapon skill either. Final Heaven or Victory Smite? VS walks all over FH. Why bother adding the jobs when the relic isn't even better than the other strong options? You basically covered all that for me- there's no reason to have them for the jobs that can't other than "completionists" sake. But how is it even being "completionist" if those weapons aren't applicable to the job anyway?

[Hashmalum]

TLDR: I have not actually heard any logical reason why the new jobs need to be included at this point.Ever notice how whenever this guy wants some feature or other, it's always we who have to prove to him why it shouldn't be done, but whenever we want some feature and he doesn't, suddenly we're the ones who need to prove something to him?

[Aana]

The burden of proof is always a fun twist on every argument. "Prove god exists!" "No! You prove he DOESNT exist!"

The simple thing about a game is my formula is rather simple:
*Do players want it? Would it make them more happy playing the game? (justification)
*How hard is it to implement on the tech side?(Feasibility)
*Will it over/underpower or even correct an issue something? (Balance)

"I have not actually heard any logical reason why the new jobs need to be included at this point."
The simple fact that people WANT it is the reason. Thats enough reason for a game tweak.

Thats the easy part. Hard part is implementation and balance.

Usually im NOT behind frivolous 'i want' updates where its hard to prove something is actually broken (like this) because they are usually time consuming development tasks with not much real impact on the game. I feel dev time should be spent on bigger problems and little 'i want' things waste that time.

But this has got to be the EASIEST adjustment in the history of this spaghetti coded game. Its adding a job to a dat of 5 weapons(and the 75+ upgrades of them). Thats it. Someone should be able to do this in 15 minutes. When a fix is THAT easy, why the heck not?

So:
Justification: Players want it.
Feasibility: Easy as hell. Add line to dat.(seriously, this is an EASY adjustment compared to most stuff)
Balance: As many have said (including those unsupportive of it) these weapons are hardly gamebreaking compared to the other options. So not even a problem.

Its a gimme update. Make people happy for virtually no effort. Thats an update note waiting to happen.

[Alhanelem]

Ever notice how whenever this guy wants some feature or other, it's always we who have to prove to him why it shouldn't be done, but whenever we want some feature and he doesn't, suddenly we're the ones who need to prove something to him?
Nope, "this guy" never noticed that, because that's not the case. It's always up to one side to convince the other of their point of view. I'm not asking for "proof" of anything, because there isn't any. This is all opinion.

The simple fact that people WANT it is the reason. Thats enough reason for a game tweak.It's enough reason for you, but it's not enough reason for me. The reasons given (on both sides, yes I include myself) are entirely subjective, e.g. opinion. This isn't about facts, it's about opinions. My opinion is it doesn't need to be changed. Your opinion is that it does. It's up to either side to convince the other of their point of view. Since that's not happening, this is where we agree to disagree.

In my mind, the whole reason the mythic and empyrean weapons were created was to rectify this deficiency. Since one or the other of those weapons beat most of the relics either in utility or damage, they serve that role just fine.

[Sparthos]

Nope, "this guy" never noticed that, because that's not the case. It's always up to one side to convince the other of their point of view. I'm not asking for "proof" of anything, because there isn't any. This is all opinion.
It's enough reason for you, but it's not enough reason for me. The reasons given (on both sides, yes I include myself) are entirely subjective, e.g. opinion. This isn't about facts, it's about opinions. My opinion is it doesn't need to be changed. Your opinion is that it does. It's up to either side to convince the other of their point of view. Since that's not happening, this is where we agree to disagree.

In my mind, the whole reason the mythic and empyrean weapons were created was to rectify this deficiency. Since one or the other of those weapons beat most of the relics either in utility or damage, they serve that role just fine.

So you don't think that now SE is doing revisions to the relic weapons in preparation for 99 that it'd be a great time to correct old mistakes given the situation within the game has changed completely?

[Atomic_Skull]

Sorry, but this is nothing but speculation unless you have secret insider information from SE.

It's not speculation, it's a deduction based on what SE has said in the past and the previous upgrades to both weapon classes.

SE has said that they will be adding something "extra" to the relics at 99 beyond increasing their pre existing stats.

Relics have received a bonus to WS damage and ODD at 90 and 95.

Empyreans have received nothing but more DMG and +stat at 90 and 95.


So you don't think that now SE is doing revisions to the relic weapons in preparation for 99 that it'd be a great time to correct old mistakes given the situation within the game has changed completely?

Don't you think now that SE is doing revisions to the jobs in preparation for 99 that it'd be a great time to give DNC treasure hunter given the situation within the game has changed completely?

I mean, they gave it to RNG, why not DNC too? Lets just go ahead and make THF completely obsolete.

[Alhanelem]

So you don't think that now SE is doing revisions to the relic weapons in preparation for 99 that it'd be a great time to correct old mistakes given the situation within the game has changed completely?
I don't think those "revisions" (really just DMG and special effect increases) include adding jobs that couldn't use the weapon before, especially considering the trials require you to be able to wield the weapon. Speaking of which, none of the other weapon related quests in the game that I can think of allow you to be on a job that can't equip the weapon whilst completing them.


SE has said that they will be adding something "extra" to the relics at 99 beyond increasing their pre existing stats.Please source this statement.

[Nightfyre]

There is precedent for additions/removals of jobs from gear after the job's/gear's introduction, notably BLU's removal from the Zenith set. I also fall in the "why not?" camp here given the minimal gains on a per-job basis here and the ease with which the change could be implemented. DNC gains a little damage output, PUP and BLU gain a utility option, COR gets a better physical weapon (though they'll generate hate faster than RNG due to Quick Draw and lack of Decoy Shot), SCH gains... nothing at all at present.

[Alhanelem]

notably BLU's removal from the Zenith set BLU was never on this set. Plus, that would be a removal, not an addition, so it doesn't really support what you're saying.

[Nightfyre]

Maybe I'm crazy, could have sworn it was at one point.

[Atomic_Skull]

I don't think those "revisions" (really just DMG and special effect increases) include adding jobs that couldn't use the weapon before, especially considering the trials require you to be able to wield the weapon. Speaking of which, none of the other weapon related quests in the game that I can think of allow you to be on a job that can't equip the weapon whilst completing them.

Please source this statement.

It was in one of the several huge threads on relic weapons from a few months back, one of the moderators came on and said that any additions to relics beyond just increasing their existing stats would be done at 99.

And no, I'm not going to dig through 200+ pages looking for it.

[Alhanelem]

And no, I'm not going to dig through 200+ pages looking for it. If you're too lazy to present the evidence, then you're not going to convince anyone of your point of view.

[Atomic_Skull]

If you're too lazy to present the evidence, then you're not going to convince anyone of your point of view.

I don't have several hours to dig through several old threads, call that lazy if you want.

[Alhanelem]

The forum has a search function.

If you can't find the evidence, than as far as I'm concerned, it doesn't exist.

You can't just say stuff then not back up your claims when someone puts you on the spot.

[Sparthos]

Don't you think now that SE is doing revisions to the jobs in preparation for 99 that it'd be a great time to give DNC treasure hunter given the situation within the game has changed completely?

I mean, they gave it to RNG, why not DNC too? Lets just go ahead and make THF completely obsolete.

What does putting DNC on Mandau have to do with THF? Most theoretical Mandau DNC would also be THF so you're just bitching to bitch?

The goal of spreading all classes across relics is to make the weapons more attractive to individuals in an age of easily acquired 95s. The barriers that barred the TOAU classes have fallen years ago and it makes perfect sense to add the new classes to old weapons.

Why should someone who took the time to grind an Annihilator be denied using the weapon on COR? There is no practical reason in '11 endgame.


I don't think those "revisions" (really just DMG and special effect increases) include adding jobs that couldn't use the weapon before, especially considering the trials require you to be able to wield the weapon. Speaking of which, none of the other weapon related quests in the game that I can think of allow you to be on a job that can't equip the weapon whilst completing them.

SE has revamped everything else, I see no reason the new jobs can't finally be put on even footing with the old jobs with regards to relic.

[Alhanelem]

The goal of spreading all classes across relics is to make the weapons more attractive to individuals in an age of easily acquired 95s.The question I have is why we feel the need to make these weapons "more attractive" to anyone. Not that adding/removing jobs from them makes them more attractive if the weapon isn't also the best for those jobs.

[Aana]

As mentioned above, its in the 'why not' category. This isnt about convincing you or anyone that its a life or death situation that demands immediate code red attention! It doesnt. But it wont hurt anyone (no balance issues) and will make some people (maybe not you) happy and largely leave everyone else uninterested either way.

When a change is THIS easy and makes a few people happy and everyone else doesnt really care, its free brownie points.

The 'justication' is quite literally that some people want it, no one really HATES the idea, and its stupidly easy to implement. If you can make 5% of the playerbase SUPER happy, 10% moderately happy and 85% neutral for a couple min of dev time, DO IT.

Quite frankly, this isnt about changing everyones opinion to say "OMG WE HAVE TO DO THIS NAO". It is basically:

CampA: I want X. It wont hurt anyone and make me happy.
CampB: I dont see any reason we SHOULD.
CampA: Well Me and a few people want X. Its laughably easy to do, and you cant think of a reason we cant, so lets do it.

As i mentioned before, with a change THIS easy, the simple fact that people want it combined with no one can really provide a reason NOT to do it is really enough.

"I wanna wear a blue shirt today!"
"I cant think of any reason why you SHOULD wear blue."
"Well i wanna so im going to"

Thats about how complex this issue is unless anyone can explain why wearing blue today would be bad.

[Alhanelem]

I'm in the "Why so?" category.

Indirectly, it does slightly hurt others if you factor in limited development time avialablility. Nothing takes "only 5 minutes" with SE.
It may also hurt other things. there ARE possibilities of balance issues with adding different weapons to different jobs. Not every weapon is equally useful to every job.

It's not that this would be a terrible change, but "why not?" is not a good reason. It's not something that really NEEDS to be changed, but some people paint it like it's something that's necessary or vital (or at least, that's the impression I get from some posts).

There are reasons why they do everything. If they make these changes, then I want them to add all the new jobs to the kraken club. It had every job before, it should have every job now! But it doesn't, because SE made a specific and concious decision not to add new jobs to it. I think the same thing is taking place with the relic weapons.

[Insaniac]

You do realize you just defended the change to allow use of CP for OP teleports right? And your defense was that you have a bunch of CP and you are too lazy trade CP for VW stuff and sell it on the AH. So if your laziness is justification for the time spent on that change why isn't me being too lazy to make a Twashtar for my DNC not a good enough reason to take 15 minutes to add it to my Mandau? You are arguing just to argue. That's pretty much all you ever do.

[Alhanelem]

You do realize you just defended the change to allow use of CP for OP teleports right?Yes, and I see no problem with this. It's my opinion on this one topic, and you gave my opinion on one other topic. These do not conflict. If I don't like the idea of something, I'm going to say so. If I do like the idea of something I'm going to say so.

I do not argue just to argue. I simply see no reason for this. It doesn't benefit me, and I don't see how it benefits anyone else, either. I guess the real reason is people support this is they have relic weapons already and don't want to get an empyrean. Why do we have to change all the old stuff when new stuff comes out?

Should I really support something I don't agree with just because various other people support it? That doesn't make sense.

[Shadowsong]

I don't think those "revisions" (really just DMG and special effect increases) include adding jobs that couldn't use the weapon before

Oh god, He doesn't think we should do it guys. He has spoken, thread /locked.
Why do you stick your head into threads where already no one would care what you say?

I want you to show me proof that SE isn't planning these updates, and I want it NOW!

[Alhanelem]

Oh god, He doesn't think we should do it guys. He has spoken, thread /locked.
Why do you stick your head into threads where already no one would care what you say?


Why don't you ask yourself the same question? Do you think anyone in particular cares what you say any more than I, or anyone else on tihs forum? Why do you stick your head into threads where already no one would care what you say?

Also, I don't know where you're getting this funny idea that I hold myself as some kind of god whom you all must obey. I have not "spoken, thread locked." My opinion is mine, your opinion is yours, there's nothing more to it than hat.

Contrary to popular belief, I do not enjoy arguing. I get sucked into them easily by others and have a hard time backing out, but that doesn't mean I enjoy it.

[Aana]

The why so has been outlined and the reasons against have been methodically adressed.

Some people want it done. It would add more content for those jobs that players would like to access.

The negative arguments as to how it would mechanically break the game have been (vaguely) addressed (i could start putting out damage formula numbers and whatnot if you need proof that these weapons are not even near the top of the 'power' pile, but you have even admitted that they are not OP). The lore and other issues have been discussed without much hooplah.

Every reason (expressed) has been addressed at this point. The only argument left is "it would take up valuable dev time" which is responded to with "Changing a job on an item has got to be about the simplist/fastest thing possible". Obviously neither of us are SE devs, but im sure we can agree it has to be on the easy side of the spectrum. Will it actually take 10 min or 2 hours neither of us can factually state. Only that it is simple relative to other changes to the game.

When something is desired and all reasons not to do it are dispelled, you do it. If you want all jobs on Kclub then id suggest making a simlar thread for it. SE is not some all knowing entity that never falters. Maybe new jobs should be on Kclub. Just because 1 guy didnt get what he wants is NOT justification to deny someone else a toy. Thats just petty and spiteful.

I want a candy bar!
"It costs to much money!" // "Cupon. Its 5C."
"Its bad for your teeth!" // "/pulls out toothbrush for use after"
"No one can take you to the store!" // "Stores across the street. Ill walk."
"Its to many calories!" // "I do 3-a-days for football 5 days a week"
"You havent finished your HW!" // "/hands over finished HW"
"Well...I cant think of a reason you DO need a candy bar. Prove to me you need one!" // "/facepalm. Its because i WANT one and you can provide no reason i shouldnt"

The REASON is desire. Thats it. Some people desire it. They do not need to make you desire it for theirs to exist. If something is desired, can be provided for vitually no cost, and has no negative effects on anyone, and wont piss off a billion people, then there is no other justification required in regards to a videogame update.

You are saying those in favor must prove a need for it otherwise its not worth doing. Its a game. No one needs anything, let alone be able to prove to someone else. The desire is adequate justification in that situation. There must be a strong negative in-game consequence(balance), playerbase backlash, or prohibitive costs. If there are none of those, then desire alone is enough justification. So far, the only hurdle presented is how much dev time it will take because none of us know that answer explicitly. This is where an SE dev would tell us what the dev team think about feasibility.

The "Why so" category once all qualms have been addressed is just defending the status quo for the sake of the status quo.

[Insaniac]

Yes, and I see no problem with this. It's my opinion on this one topic, and you gave my opinion on one other topic. These do not conflict. If I don't like the idea of something, I'm going to say so. If I do like the idea of something I'm going to say so.

I do not argue just to argue. I simply see no reason for this. It doesn't benefit me, and I don't see how it benefits anyone else, either. I guess the real reason is people support this is they have relic weapons already and don't want to get an empyrean. Why do we have to change all the old stuff when new stuff comes out?

Should I really support something I don't agree with just because various other people support it? That doesn't make sense.You absolutely argue just to argue and if you don't believe that you need to do some serious soul searching. Your opinions are clearly conflicted. The only difference between these 2 topics is that one benefits you (technically if you waste your CP on teleports you are costing yourself gil but w/e) and the other benefits other people. Neither one hurts anyone unless you want to count the dev time used for both "unneeded" changes then they both hurt people equally. The core of your argument against this change directly conflicts with your argument for CP teleports. All you do is jam up threads with pointless bickering on subjects that most of the time don't even remotely effect you and you post so god damn much that if I ignore you it's hard to tell what's even going on in a thread but I'm going to do it anyway so I don't waste any more time on you.

[Alhanelem]

I'm going to do it anyway so I don't waste any more time on you. Believe me, you'll be doing a me a huge favor.

You gotta love this forum. Agree with the majority or get hated to death.

[MDenham]

SCH on Claustrum - Arguably, this is really not a strong weapon that offers anything game breaking to SCH, so there should be no issues adding them merely for completion's sake (sorry SCHs).Figured I'd mention that SCH would probably end up on Mjollnir instead if we take the "charge up for relic WS" weapons at face value.

It doesn't really change the argument, other than that it makes SCH melee slightly more viable (as in, it goes from "hell no" to "is that a rel--hell no").

[Briarb19]

I think besides everything that's been mentioned, the imbalance of this is really justification enough. Based on the fact that SE added relic gear to Dynamis for the ToAU and WotG jobs proves that they acknowledged the imbalance associated with leaving new jobs off an aspect of the game that was innately available to every other job - relic armor. Why should they be left off the relic weapons? Simply put, they shouldn't be. Every job in the game should be able to make an Empy, a Mythic, AND a Relic.

Saying "Well you can use Mythic and Empy, so use that" is simply not justification.

I really feel like SE should at least dignify our request with a response, even if it's a simple "I'm sorry, but we have chosen not to implement this change." At least we know we're being heard in that case. Anyone agree?

[Atomic_Skull]

What does putting DNC on Mandau have to do with THF? Most theoretical Mandau DNC would also be THF so you're just bitching to bitch?

THF is supposed to be the master of daggers but SE has basically made DNC into "THF only better!" I don't want to see one of the few things remaining that is THF's given over to DNC.

And no, RDM and BRD don't count.

[Atomic_Skull]

The forum has a search function.

If you can't find the evidence, than as far as I'm concerned, it doesn't exist.

You can't just say stuff then not back up your claims when someone puts you on the spot.

Pain in the ass to find it but here you go.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/2528-ATTN-Dev-Comm.-Rep-Relic-Mythic-Weapons-Reborn-Yes-Please-%E3%83%AC%E3%83%AA%E3%83%83%E3%82%AF%E3%81%A8%E3%83%9F%E3%82%B7%E3%83%83%E3%82%AF%E3%81%AE%E5%BC%B7%E5%8C%96?p=145664&viewfull=1#post145664

[Shadowsong]

That doesn't qualify as a source for him I'm sure. Now please go write a 5 page thesis on the topic with a works cited page, I think that the only thing he would accept.
Why is it every post I see of Alhanelem is "SOURCES OR ITS NOT TRUE!" Must be sad being that angry and untrusting at literally ALL times.

[Kimble]

While we are at it, should add DNC and SCH to salvage gear. And add SCH and DNC to some sky sets. Totally stupid to not add DNC and SCH to salvage gear. They got added to Nyzul Isle.

[Suirieko]

I strongly support that the five newer jobs should have relics, and I really would like to see SE respond to this. IF it's a no, I would like a reason why this is so. AS it stands this changes nothing in terms of balance.

Also, once again, THF doesn't lose anything when DNC has access to Mandau. THF is still better with dagger skill and have higher evasion. Let's also not forget that they have SATA, as well as native triple attack and bully, and of course whatever future abilities they get.

Oh yes, and I've been main THF for 5 years, and is very close to finishing Mandau, as I'm on my final stage. (Just taking a break due to unforeseen circumstances.)

Really though, the job vs job hate needs to stop.

[Juri_Licious]

THF is supposed to be the master of daggers but SE has basically made DNC into "THF only better!" I don't want to see one of the few things remaining that is THF's given over to DNC.

And no, RDM and BRD don't count.
Where are you getting all this stuff? It sounds like you're expecting THF to be a top DD or something.

And stealing? THF has such a tremendous amount of gear and weapons compared to DNC.
I still don't understand why DNC can't use Homam or Skadi sets.

-edit-

One more thing, you shouldn't have anything to complain about really, with the DNC/THF argument.
Who actually gets invited to parties? THF. Who ever needs a DNC for endgame? No one.

[Suirieko]

Where are you getting all this stuff? It sounds like you're expecting THF to be a top DD or something.

And stealing? THF has such a tremendous amount of gear and weapons compared to DNC.
I still don't understand why DNC can't use Homam or Skadi sets.

Honestly, when that came out, it bugged me a great deal, then when the Relic/Af came out, I was content enough to ignore it.

Also, THF can be a very good DD if used correctly. Most people think Dagger = Weak. SATA iand their WS is what makes THF shine, and even with all the abilities Dancers have, THFs will still shine.

Also, with all the "Stealing abilities" hate that THF has been calling, ESPECIALLY treasure hunter, consider this:

With Bounty Hunter, they only get TH1. THF still get at the most, with all the gears, TH6, without all the gears, TH3 natively. Same thing applies to BLU's new Treasure Hunter job trait that they got with the last update. All things consider, THF is still the top for this.


One more thing, you shouldn't have anything to complain about really, with the DNC/THF argument.
Who actually gets invited to parties? THF. Who ever needs a DNC for endgame? No one.

Personally, when it comes to endgame, both jobs can shine nicely. DNC can easily tank due to fan dance and ability to cure themselves, where THF can easily tank due to much higher evasion.

THF, though, is more preferred because of Treasure Hunter as well.

[Alhanelem]

Pain in the ass to find it but here you go.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/2528-ATTN-Dev-Comm.-Rep-Relic-Mythic-Weapons-Reborn-Yes-Please-%E3%83%AC%E3%83%AA%E3%83%83%E3%82%AF%E3%81%A8%E3%83%9F%E3%82%B7%E3%83%83%E3%82%AF%E3%81%AE%E5%BC%B7%E5%8C%96?p=145664&viewfull=1#post145664
They definitely literally talk about adding new properties. While that doesn't necessarily mean "jobs," it does mean that it's more than just an incremental improvement. Kudos for actually following through.


That doesn't qualify as a source for him I'm sure.Why would I not accept legitimate evidence that someone, upon my own request, took the time to find, and is a translation of an staff member post? I'm not that dense. It's not unreasonable to ask someone to provide evidence to back up their arguments.

[Atomic_Skull]

Also, once again, THF doesn't lose anything when DNC has access to Mandau. THF is still better with dagger skill

DNC actually has higher accuracy with daggers thanks to Accuracy Bonus 1 through 3. They also get DW4 while THF at most gets DW3 from /NIN. DNC's evasion isn't quite up to THF's but it's close and their other support abilities more than make up for it. They also get forced triple attack on a shorter timer and forced crits on WS.

And DNC hasn't been behind THF on gear since Abyssea and Voidwatch.


With Bounty Hunter, they only get TH1..

Bounty Shot is TH2, and it's fairly easy to proc up to TH4 reliably. And anything above TH3 is pretty much unnoticeable anyway.



One more thing, you shouldn't have anything to complain about really, with the DNC/THF argument.
Who actually gets invited to parties?

Neither.

[Juri_Licious]

Personally, when it comes to endgame, both jobs can shine nicely. DNC can easily tank due to fan dance and ability to cure themselves, where THF can easily tank due to much higher evasion.

THF, though, is more preferred because of Treasure Hunter as well.
Well DNC can tank better than THF, it still however doesn't get invited to Abyssea parties or parties outside Abyssea.
No one specifically needs a DNC ever.



DNC actually has higher accuracy with daggers thanks to Accuracy Bonus 1 through 3. They also get DW4 while THF at most gets DW3 from /NIN. DNC's evasion isn't quite up to THF's but it's close and their other support abilities more than make up for it. They also get forced triple attack on a shorter timer and forced crits on WS.

And DNC hasn't been behind THF on gear since Abyssea and Voidwatch.

How exactly is this stealing though? If THF didn't have it before DNC.
Well as long as i'm face to face with the monster i'm fighting, my evasion will be 391(closed position merits).

I hope you aren't talking about Ternary Flourish though cause that move is absolutely terrible.
THF has plenty of stuff and gets invited to parties. Thanks to Abyssea being THF is way popular than it use to be.


Neither.

You must be playing a totally different game than.

[Suirieko]

DNC actually has higher accuracy with daggers thanks to Accuracy Bonus 1 through 3. They also get DW4 while THF at most gets DW3 from /NIN. DNC's evasion isn't quite up to THF's but it's close and their other support abilities more than make up for it. They also get forced triple attack on a shorter timer and forced crits on WS.


Pretty sure Dagger skill > Accuracy bonus. Also not to mention that SATA nearly perfect accuracy, unless the mob have Perfect dodge up, or ninjutsu shadows.

Also, as for Climatic Flourish, while yes it is a forced critical hit, it has much longer recast timer (Once every minute and a half), and requires finishing moves, and it consumes all of it. SATA is still more efficient.

As for Ternary Flourish, yes, it does forces triple attack, but like before, it requires finishing moves (3 of them), and can only be done once every 2 and a half minutes, and shares the same recast timer with Climatic Flourish, which also shares the same recast as Striking Flourish. In my experience, I very rarely found a reason to use Ternary, let alike Striking Flourish and only find myself using Climactic Flourish.

SATA is still far more efficient than Climatic flourish. You have two Forced critical hit moves that you can use every minute. Both of them can be reduced down to 50 seconds recast.

The bottom-line is, people need to get over the "Other jobs need to stop stealing from THF" because seriously. I don't see it, and even if they do take it, THF still performs it far more superior and cannot be replaced by other jobs.


Bounty Shot is TH2, and it's fairly easy to proc up to TH4 reliably. And anything above TH3 is pretty much unnoticeable anyway.Moot point. Pretty sure SE has proven that higher TH will always have a chance to yield better drop, even at TH9 and TH10. Besides, which job is more likely to be called on for Treasure hunter purpose. THF or Ranger? Yeah. I thought so too.



Neither.Pretty sure my THF and DNC gets invited all the time. Both of the jobs perform very well in abysse, after all.

All in All, allowing Dancer to wield Mandau harms nothing, andIt doesn't make Thief any less unique.

[Darkvalkyr]

What I see here:
"I have an opinion on something!"
"I have one too!"
"Your opinion isn't good enough!"
"But it's my opinion, yours is yours!"
"You suck!"
"Why?"
"You really do!"

With flavours of actual discussion in the middle.

[Atomic_Skull]

Pretty sure Dagger skill > Accuracy bonus. Also not to mention that SATA nearly perfect accuracy, unless the mob have Perfect dodge up, or ninjutsu shadows.

Below 200 skill 1 dagger skill = 1 ACC, above 200 skill 1 dagger skill = 0.9ACC. There's nothing inherently "better" about ACC and ATT from skill vs from other sources.


Also, as for Climatic Flourish, while yes it is a forced critical hit, it has much longer recast timer (Once every minute and a half), and requires finishing moves, and it consumes all of it. SATA is still more efficient.

It can be used from any angle, that in itself is better.



SATA is still far more efficient than Climatic flourish. You have two Forced critical hit moves that you can use every minute. Both of them can be reduced down to 50 seconds recast.

Except that SA won't work unless you are behind the mob.


As for Ternary Flourish, yes, it does forces triple attack, but like before, it requires finishing moves (3 of them), and can only be done once every 2 and a half minutes, and shares the same recast timer with Climatic Flourish, which also shares the same recast as Striking Flourish.

Assassin's Charge has a recast of 5 minutes with max merits.


Moot point. Pretty sure SE has proven that higher TH will always have a chance to yield better drop, even at TH9 and TH10. Besides, which job is more likely to be called on for Treasure hunter purpose. THF or Ranger? Yeah. I thought so too.

They would have had to kill thousands of mobs to prove anything with that test. Any independent tests that have been done with higher tiers of TH have shown it to be virtually unnoticeable in the statistical noise.


All in All, allowing Dancer to wield Mandau harms nothing

It harms THF. It's the final nail in the coffin that says "Attention THFs, DNC is your new replacement"

[Insaniac]

This THF vs. DNC argument is wayyy off topic and Mandau DNC isn't going to be any better than a Twashtar DNC already is. The fact is every job deserves access to at least 1 relic because it may be the only feasible option for some players to take to 95 and maybe 99.

[Atomic_Skull]

This THF vs. DNC argument is wayyy off topic and Mandau DNC isn't going to be any better than a Twashtar DNC already is. The fact is every job deserves access to at least 1 relic because it may be the only feasible option for some players to take to 95 and maybe 99.

IF SE ends up increasing the relics power at 99 as much as they have hinted at you can bet that the 99 stage will be "collect an impossible number of some item" In fact I kind of hope that it is.

[Briarb19]

IF SE ends up increasing the relics power at 99 as much as they have hinted at you can bet that the 99 stage will be "collect an impossible number of some item" In fact I kind of hope that it is.

It's complete speculation to assume the 99 Mandau will give THF an edge over DNC that Twashtar can't. You have no clue how the 99 Mandau will compare to the 99 Twashtar. Besides, who is to say the 99 Empys won't get a boost of some sort too to keep those weapons on par with relic? Should DNC be 'taken off' Twashtar in that case? Of course not.

I'll even give you the benefit of the doubt and say the 99 Mandau WILL give THF the substantial edge on DNC you seem to feel it so rightly deserves and that adding DNC to it would eliminate that. So what? There's four other jobs in the mix here that you are not factoring in to your very polarized opinion. Why should they be left off relics because SE hasn't "kept THF and DNC in balance"?

The fact is, right now, Mandau is no different then Twashtar and adding DNC to it would have no effect on job balance. Your only reasoning for not wanting DNC on it is simply because you're frustrated at the way SE has been handling the job balance in general between DNC and THF, which while maybe justified, is an entirely different argument and belongs in another thread, so in all due respect, please kindly take it there. Thank you.

[FrankReynolds]

This is just silly. THF is not the only job on mandau. Thief needs work, but it has nothing to do with dancer being better. Please don't ever bring that useless POS Ternary up.

I agree, dancer should be on mandau. It has always bothered me that dancer didn't have a relic.

[Neisan_Quetz]

SE's form of irony: Make Dnc useful at farming relic, but be unable to use one itself.

[Aarahs]

Please stop talking as though dancer could only wield twashtar or mandau if they were added to it. If dnc was added, why would they not wield both at once? They do have dual wield.

[Rohypnol]

Please stop talking as though dancer could only wield twashtar or mandau if they were added to it. If dnc was added, why would they not wield both at once? They do have dual wield.

Only thing you'd get for off-handing Twashtar would be the stat boost. No weapon skill or aftermath.

[Asymptotic]

SE has given DNC too much of THF's stuff already. No more please.

Please cry more. Your tears are delicious.


Just another QQ thread about how this or that relic the player already owns isn't useable on some other job they leveled.

Actually, I have an Empyrean. Mythic is broken at this point and will be for at least another 6 months. I would like DNC to be added to Twashtar, BLU to Excalibur etc. so I have motivation to participate in content in which I've never really had the chance to participate because none of my jobs have been "Relic" jobs.


Some relics's weapon categories aren't strictly compatible with the category a job uses. BLU can already equip several longswords including Almace, Mandau is actually just a reskin of the Parrying Knife, which DNC can wield, . Sch can't normally equip hammers and PUP can't normally equip Cesti; but, they can equip Molva Maul and Heofon Knuckles respectively, so that kind of invalidates this argument.



TLDR: I have not actually heard any logical reason why the new jobs need to be included at this point. Who honestly cares? In basically every case of a relic that's not available on a new job, the empyrean is better anyway.
Expansion of old content to new people who otherwise might not bother, giving them something else to do in this game with limited relevant content, thus continuing to get their $12.95 month after month. That, and it would require virtually no development time. Obviously, a lot of people care or this topic wouldn't continue to come up. And Empyreans being a "better choice" is completely irrelevant. Since when has SE released only "better" gear with updates?



It is extremely rare for jobs to be added to gear after the fact. Each time new jobs came out, they were only added to existing gear in accordance with the category of armor they would typically wear. Anything that broke with that tradition was generally added after the job came out with that job already on it. There is minimal precendent, if any, of jobs being added to any gear after the release of the job. My dad Q. And his dad Q. And his dad Q. And I'll be darned if my son R! Therefore Q.

They raised level caps. They turned Dynamis into low-man daily-entry content. They gave DNC/BLU/THF native dual wield. Sorry, but appeal to tradition just isn't going to work here.



Out of new jobs, my main is PUP. I don't even want spharai on it. Empy would be better, and I don't even want the weapon skill either. Final Heaven or Victory Smite? VS walks all over FH. Why bother adding the jobs when the relic isn't even better than the other strong options? You basically covered all that for me

"This change that a lot of others seem to want isn't something that interests me, and even though it would have absolutely no negative impact on my enjoyment of the game either, I don't want it to happen because really, this game is all about me."


There's no reason to have them for the jobs that can't other than "completionists" sake. But how is it even being "completionist" if those weapons aren't applicable to the job anyway?

I feel like "completionist" is a personality type that is pretty common in MMO players. Anyway, to reiterate, it's mostly to expand content to additional people. You don't have to participate in it, but it's absolutely blind to argue that it wouldn't have a positive impact on SE getting peoples' $12.95 while having no negative impact on the game.

TL;DR

----------------------------------------->

[Asymptotic]

I agree, dancer should be on mandau. It has always bothered me that dancer didn't have a relic.

Especially considering the whole Great War story behind the Relic weapons. DNC and SCH had pretty huge roles in all that. They really should have been retro-added as soon as WotG came out. it's more of a gaping story hole that these two jobs specifically are NOT on them.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I agree on SCH and DNC, the rest should NOT be added on Relics.

[cidbahamut]

I agree on SCH and DNC, the rest should NOT be added on Relics.

Why not?

Corsairs shoot things with guns and there is a gun relic.
Puppetmasters punch things and there is a punching relic.
Blue Mages stab things with swords and there is a sword relic.

Seems like a pretty obvious course of action.

[Alhanelem]

Sorry, but appeal to tradition just isn't going to work here.Lookie here, we just invented a new logical fallacy!

If there is no precedent for something, it reasonable to assume based upon that things that may or may not happen in the future. That doesn't guarantee you're going to be right, but past action is often indicative of future action.


but it's absolutely blind to argue that it wouldn't have a positive impact on SE getting peoples' $12.95 while having no negative impact on the game.The number of $12.95s affected by this is probably so small I could count it on my fingers and toes. It would seem pretty fickle to me to quit or not quit based on whether or not DNC gets added to the relic dagger (or insert any other job/relic) and that person was likely ready to quit already.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Why not?

Corsairs shoot things with guns and there is a gun relic.
Puppetmasters punch things and there is a punching relic.
Blue Mages stab things with swords and there is a sword relic.

Seems like a pretty obvious course of action.

SCH and DNC existed when the weapons were created... The rest did NOT.

[cidbahamut]

http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/entries/icons/original/000/002/063/arguecat.png?1266810790

[Asymptotic]

Lookie here, we just invented a new logical fallacy!

If there is no precedent for something, it reasonable to assume based upon that things that may or may not happen in the future. That doesn't guarantee you're going to be right, but past action is often indicative of future action.

Argumentum ad antiquitatem. Yeah, I invented it and even bothered to write an entire wikipedia article on it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition)!
Do your research, or you look like a fool.

They do all sorts of crap as of recent without precedent, so precedent or lack thereof isn't a useful gauge of what they will and won't do.

Regardless, there ARE examples of jobs being added to weapons/equipment. Dragoons were randomly added to pebbles, BLU was randomly added to Chakrams, and I'm not sure on this, but I was pretty sure BLU/COR were not added to Crimson/Blood until at least one update after they were introduced to the game.



The number of $12.95s affected by this is probably so small I could count it on my fingers and toes. It would seem pretty fickle to me to quit or not quit based on whether or not DNC gets added to the relic dagger (or insert any other job/relic) and that person was likely ready to quit already.

Regardless of how many $12.95s are affected by it, they're essentially free $12.95s. If you give people more things to do in a game, they're more likely to stick around to keep playing it. It's even better when the content already exists, and all you have to do is change a few flags.

Furthermore, you have produced no viable argument about why these jobs should not be added to Relic weapons, only that you are not interested in them being added and that you in an argumentum ad antiquitatem, don't think they would do so. Usefulness compared to other gear is completely irrelevant. The only things that matter, from a game design standpoint, are as follows:

1.) Are there people that would be interested in / enjoy this content addition?
2.) Is this number significantly larger than the number of people who would be upset by this addition? Additionally, will this content impact other players negatively in any fashion?
3.) Is this difficult to implement? Are there severe game balance issues to consider?
4.) Does it contradict anything from a game lore standpoint? If so, is it out of line with previous game lore contradictions we have made?

(To clarify the answers are 1.) Yes 2.) Yes. No. 3.) Probably not. No. 4.) Potentially. No, seeing as relic armor for ToAU jobs was randomly added to Dynamis, game lore has already fallen out the window here. )

[Sparthos]

SCH and DNC existed when the weapons were created... The rest did NOT.

Wut?

The lore argument died the second SE added TOAU job drops to Dynamis.

[Rukkirii]

Hey guys! We forwarded your feedback to the dev. team and they let us know that they have indeed looked into increasing the number of jobs that can use relic weapons, but as of right now there are no plans to implement this change.

[Asymptotic]

Hey guys! We forwarded your feedback to the dev. team and they let us know that they have indeed looked into increasing the number of jobs that can use relic weapons, but as of right now there are no plans to implement this change.

That's all very nice, but some reasoning would be nice :P

[Rukkirii]

That's all very nice, but some reasoning would be nice :P

I tried T_T but I shall try again just for you! I'll post an update if I get more info.

[Asymptotic]

I tried T_T but I shall try again just for you!

<3

We know it's not your fault.
(It's Camate's)

[Kalilla]

Leave Camate out of this!

lol

[Juri_Licious]

I tried T_T but I shall try again just for you! I'll post an update if I get more info.

You go girl!

[Unleashhell]

They should make relic weaponskills better before even thinking of adding more jobs too them. Most of the relic weaponskills are just sad for the amount of time and effort people have put and still put into them. Even though there has been updates to relic weapons the specific weaponskills for those weapons still need much improvement imo. Having 95 Excalibur, Knights of Round still falls short to my Almace's CdC. I'm hoping at 95 they give the weaponskills another 25% boost and increase the modifiers because they really need it.

[Economizer]

Hey guys! We forwarded your feedback to the dev. team and they let us know that they have indeed looked into increasing the number of jobs that can use relic weapons, but as of right now there are no plans to implement this change.

Keep Scholars off Mjollnir please. Adding jobs to the appropriate relics is fine however.

[MDenham]

Keep Scholars off Mjollnir please. Adding jobs to the appropriate relics is fine however.I'm curious what your line of reasoning is for this, considering that SCH is on the Molva Maul but not the Chthonic Staff. It seems like a weird attempt to effectively give SCH access to two different relic WSes.

[Economizer]

I'm curious what your line of reasoning is for this, considering that SCH is on the Molva Maul but not the Chthonic Staff. It seems like a weird attempt to effectively give SCH access to two different relic WSes.

Scholar should have never been on the Molva Maul either. But even if they stay on that weapon, Red Mage can wear both the Sword and the Dagger.

Mjollnir should not touch another job's hands. White Mage is the club specialist. Mjollnir was designed exclusively for White Mage. If SE wanted Mjollnir to be in the hands of another job, some other jobs like Paladin would have been able to use it too from day one. The weapon is a symbol, a pact made by SE with White Mages, exclusively with White Mages. To break this pact is to allow adventurer's everywhere to die from lack of healing and the undead to roam.

Do you remember when cure spells started doing 99999 damage to undead for a day? That was the repercussions of the Molva Maul being weldable by Scholars - the pure anger of every White Mage pouring out into divine retribution at the corpses of the monsters that allowed this to happen. Final Fantasy will not survive the day of reckoning that will occur if Mjollnir is allowed to be handled by unchosen hands.

[Juri_Licious]

Scholar should have never been on the Molva Maul either. But even if they stay on that weapon, Red Mage can wear both the Sword and the Dagger.

Mjollnir should not touch another job's hands. White Mage is the club specialist. Mjollnir was designed exclusively for White Mage. If SE wanted Mjollnir to be in the hands of another job, some other jobs like Paladin would have been able to use it too from day one. The weapon is a symbol, a pact made by SE with White Mages, exclusively with White Mages. To break this pact is to allow adventurer's everywhere to die from lack of healing and the undead to roam.

Do you remember when cure spells started doing 99999 damage to undead for a day? That was the repercussions of the Molva Maul being weldable by Scholars - the pure anger of every White Mage pouring out into divine retribution at the corpses of the monsters that allowed this to happen. Final Fantasy will not survive the day of reckoning that will occur if Mjollnir is allowed to be handled by unchosen hands.

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[Daniel_Hatcher]

Scholar should have never been on the Molva Maul either. But even if they stay on that weapon, Red Mage can wear both the Sword and the Dagger.

Mjollnir should not touch another job's hands. White Mage is the club specialist. Mjollnir was designed exclusively for White Mage. If SE wanted Mjollnir to be in the hands of another job, some other jobs like Paladin would have been able to use it too from day one. The weapon is a symbol, a pact made by SE with White Mages, exclusively with White Mages. To break this pact is to allow adventurer's everywhere to die from lack of healing and the undead to roam.

Do you remember when cure spells started doing 99999 damage to undead for a day? That was the repercussions of the Molva Maul being weldable by Scholars - the pure anger of every White Mage pouring out into divine retribution at the corpses of the monsters that allowed this to happen. Final Fantasy will not survive the day of reckoning that will occur if Mjollnir is allowed to be handled by unchosen hands.

PLD is A- on club while WHM is only B+, it's more an expert than WHM.

[Alhanelem]

PLD is A- on club while WHM is only B+, it's more an expert than WHM.
But PLDs *never* use clubs, except as a proc tool and they also do not have access to Hexa Strike. Other than that exception, WHM is basically the only job that would ever for a second consider swinging a club. (Aside: There should be new 2-handed great mauls that only WHM gets :p )

[Daniel_Hatcher]

But PLDs *never* use clubs, except as a proc tool and they also do not have access to Hexa Strike. Other than that exception, WHM is basically the only job that would ever for a second consider swinging a club. (Aside: There should be new 2-handed great mauls that only WHM gets :p )

I don't deny it. My point is only PLD's A- skill is the highest rank any job gets on club. This makes them the master of the jobs. WHM is just the only realistic one to use a club.

[Juilan]

I tried T_T but I shall try again just for you! I'll post an update if I get more info.

Where this moogle come from? Did they hire someone to help camate? Lets hope the devs listen to you more than they do camate who should start bribing them with gardening techniques

[Greatguardian]

PLD is A- on club while WHM is only B+, it's more an expert than WHM.

PLDs can't equip Hammers/Mauls. Oops?

[Mizuharu]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/images/avatars/MoogleIcon.jpg

I'm so glad moogles have their eyes closed. Otherwise, I'd feel like it was trying to stare into my soul. o_o

Although...

http://static.ffxiah.com/images/avatars/fa0fbc81a7d8e61ba1ab98eeac39cddc.png

Now that's an avatar!

[MDenham]

(Aside: There should be new 2-handed great mauls that only WHM gets :p )This. So much, this.

The only problem is that they'd make scythes look fast but pitiful. (DMG: 180 Delay 765? Sounds like a plan at 99.)

[Atomic_Skull]

Mjollnir should not touch another job's hands. White Mage is the club specialist. Mjollnir was designed exclusively for White Mage. If SE wanted Mjollnir to be in the hands of another job, some other jobs like Paladin would have been able to use it too from day one. The weapon is a symbol, a pact made by SE with White Mages, exclusively with White Mages. To break this pact is to allow adventurer's everywhere to die from lack of healing and the undead to roam.

This is exactly how I feel about DNC getting Mandau. It should belong to THF (RDM and BRD really don't count because they don't horn in on THF's territory like DNC does)

[Atomic_Skull]

Only thing you'd get for off-handing Twashtar would be the stat boost. No weapon skill or aftermath.


Nope just the highest DPS dagger you could possibly wield offhand.

[Kimble]

Either add the 5 new jobs to relics or make them their own relics. Simple.

[Arcon]

[..] or make them their own relics.

Wouldn't fit the pattern. Mythics are job-specific (one for each job), and Relics and Empyreans are weapon-specific, meaning one for each weapon, which are supposed to be the mightiest of their class. Adding more weapons would violate that logic.

[Suirieko]

Well, at least I'm glad that we're finally getting answers. Thank you for the response ^^

[Kristal]

If they are worried about the counter effect on PUP they can just make it like the DW on suppanomimi. PUP would only get the "enhances counter" effect if they were /mnk.

That wouldn't work, because Counter is not job-specific. Dual Wield is an on/off trait, whereas Counter is a +x trait. Most traits, MNK's Counter included, are actually Enhances "<something>" effect bonuses.

It could be changed to "MNK:Enhances "Counter" effect", but the biggest issue wouldn't be Counter but the ungodly base damage on Spharai (+48) compared to any other H2H weapon (Verethragna/Kenkonken +39).

[Vold]

Hey guys! We forwarded your feedback to the dev. team and they let us know that they have indeed looked into increasing the number of jobs that can use relic weapons, but as of right now there are no plans to implement this change.

Please source this statement.

[Alhanelem]

Personally if anything, I think that new weapons should have been added for the new jobs. New relic armor was added, I don't see why new weapons shouldn't have been. Then that allows the possibility of those jobs getting something built for them (though you never know when it comes to SE...) instead of something made before their existence without their consideration.

[Asymptotic]

This is exactly how I feel about DNC getting Mandau. It should belong to THF (RDM and BRD really don't count because they don't horn in on THF's territory like DNC does)

So much QQ. SE should really just delete THF all together, give BLU fully upgrade-able Treasure Hunter and call it a day.

[Insaniac]

That wouldn't work, because Counter is not job-specific. Dual Wield is an on/off trait, whereas Counter is a +x trait. Most traits, MNK's Counter included, are actually Enhances "<something>" effect bonuses.

It could be changed to "MNK:Enhances "Counter" effect", but the biggest issue wouldn't be Counter but the ungodly base damage on Spharai (+48) compared to any other H2H weapon (Verethragna/Kenkonken +39).I was just using suppa as an example of a piece of gear that enhances an effect without granting that same effect unless you have it via main or sj. There's no reason the enhances counter on Spharai couldn't be coded the same. It would technically be "Latent effect: Enhances counter" where the requirement would be main or sj MNK but in the interest of not messing with the item description just leave it as "Enhances counter". Not that it matters though since SE is arbitrarily refusing to add new jobs to relics.

[Briarb19]

I tried T_T but I shall try again just for you! I'll post an update if I get more info.

Thank you very much Rukkirii for taking the time to speak to the dev team! And even more so for going back to try to retrieve us more information. I look forward to hearing more :)

[Atomic_Skull]

So much QQ. SE should really just delete THF all together, give BLU fully upgrade-able Treasure Hunter and call it a day.

They kind of already have with the updates to RNG and DNC.

[Sotek]

Personally if anything, I think that new weapons should have been added for the new jobs. New relic armor was added, I don't see why new weapons shouldn't have been. Then that allows the possibility of those jobs getting something built for them (though you never know when it comes to SE...) instead of something made before their existence without their consideration.

Relic armor is job specific. Relic weapons are not.

The only possible new Relic weapon they could add is a Relic war hoop for Dancer, assuming SE ever follows up on the claim that they'd make Throwing weapon skills (they said this forever ago - before this forum - so don't ask for a source). I guess Scholar could get a Relic Grimoire that acts the same way Gjallarhorn does, giving an extra Stratagem maybe?
Blue Mage, Corsair and Puppetmaster (and Dancer) are pretty much screwed without being added to existing ones, though.

[Alhanelem]

Relic armor is job specific. Relic weapons are not.Some of them are, but one way or another, every job was represented. There's no reason they couldn't invent new weapons. Yes, there would be type overlap, but they could explain it away somehow.

[Sotek]

Some of them are, but one way or another, every job was represented. There's no reason they couldn't invent new weapons.

All Relic armor is job specific. There are now two weapons of the same type in the Relic catalog; some are job specific simply because they're the only job that wields that weapon type.

If they add anything new it will be along the lines of Aegis and Gjallarhorn. That actually works for a couple of jobs, but only those two. Dancer, Blue Mage and Corsair can be slapped on their respective weapons, Scholar and Puppetmaster could have new Relics, a Grimoire and Animator (or frame?) in the style of Gjallarhorn. It would be a bit of effort to add Animated Grimoires and Animated Puppets into Dynamis, but it's certainly not impossible. The other three jobs are pretty much stuck being slapped on a preexisting weapon unless I'm mistaken, though. I don't think any of them have something similar to Grimoires or Animators (Corsair has ammo but that certainly should be ruled out).

It seems kind of pointless to say "they could overlap weapon types" when they've pretty much already said they'll simply be adding new jobs to them anyway. Puppetmaster is the only job it seems questionable to add onto a Relic weapon so I've offered an alternative, Scholar just fits the same theme, though it would be greatly unfair unless SE does something considerable to Claustrum (Hey SE, make the *2.5 damage modifier work on magic damage, problem solved).

[FrankReynolds]

SE can and will add any stupid thing they want to the game. It doesn't have to make any sense. I can jump on the head of a giant frog anytime I want. Go figure that crap out.

[Alhanelem]

SE can and will add any stupid thing they want to the game. It doesn't have to make any sense. I can jump on the head of a giant frog anytime I want. Go figure that crap out.
Pretty much.

[Juri_Licious]

SE can and will add any stupid thing they want to the game. It doesn't have to make any sense. I can jump on the head of a giant frog anytime I want. Go figure that crap out.

SE are Naruto fans.

[Sotek]

Anyone else noticing that Alhanelem will commonly claim that SE doesn't have the time to introduce peoples more complex ideas that he disagrees with, yet the moment its something he wants, the fact that it would take far longer to create and balance five new weapons than it would to simply adjust the existing ones becomes completely oblivious to him.

Though while this topic is descending into "SE can do anything they want, they can add multiple Relic daggers" despite evidence they'll do the opposite, I propose the world will end next week because anything is possible. Go ahead and prove me wrong.

[Alhanelem]

Anyone else noticing that AlhanelemNope, I'm not noticing that. I am however noticing you making personal attacks. I also notice you randomly popping into threads to bring this up, even when it hasn't happened in the active discussion.

I don't really endorse taking any action whatsoever on this topic- but I would rather them make new weapons for the missing jobs that don't suck, then just slap them on the existing ones and call it a day. If SE is going to do something, they should at least do it well and not lazily.

[Atomic_Skull]

SE are Naruto fans.

No. Please read this. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OlderThanTheyThink)

[Sotek]

Nope, I'm not noticing that. I am however noticing you making personal attacks. I also notice you randomly popping into threads to bring this up, even when it hasn't happened in the active discussion.

I don't really endorse taking any action whatsoever on this topic- but I would rather them make new weapons for the missing jobs that don't suck, then just slap them on the existing ones and call it a day. If SE is going to do something, they should at least do it well and not lazily.

A personal attack would be "You're an idiot", I was simply observing a trend. And of course it hasn't happened in the active discussion here, you're not exactly going to argue both sides of this topic, are you? I've simply noticed you'll say something isn't worth the developers time in one thread and then claim something else is in another topic despite the fact they've already suggested doing otherwise.

As for the actual topic, adding completely new Relic weapons is unnecessary, simply a perk for the jobs involved (adding new good Relics for five jobs when something like Summoner and Black Mage are royally screwed), a bonus, and something that is of such little importance that dev time could be better spent in other areas. It's not in any way a bad suggestion, its just that simply sticking new jobs on the current weapons is a far simpler solution. Stop me if this is sounding familiar to you.

[Asymptotic]

No. Please read this. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OlderThanTheyThink)

Actually this would be at least 700% more useful. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiraiya)

[Alhanelem]

It's not in any way a bad suggestion, its just that simply sticking new jobs on the current weapons is a far simpler solution. Stop me if this is sounding familiar to you. Simpler, yes, I'll give it that. But simpler isn't always better. We often do simplify our suggestions in the hopes they will be more likely to be implemented (I fully admit I have done this, for example with the title screen resolution enhancement idea), but we shouldn't have to set the bar low.

(In the case of my noted example, I'd like for all of the textures to be sharpened, not just this one or that one, and I just hoped that by picking on something glaringly bad, it might get some attention)

[Briarb19]

Adding new relics certainly wouldn't hurt, but I don't see anything wrong with just adding the new jobs to the existing relics. Yes, many of them are not very strong, so the idea of new ones would be appealing in the sense that the new jobs could have something that is designed more powerful from the start, but SE has given us the impression they will continue to improve them.

Also, really none of the relics are so powerful specific to their respective jobs that it could be deemed 'unfair' to the new jobs when they're added.

[Kimble]

I've been on the fence with making a relic cause most dont appeal to me (I dont have PLD or BRD and I dont enjoy dark as much) but if they added COR to gun, id make it in a heart beat.

[Suirieko]

Personally if anything, I think that new weapons should have been added for the new jobs. New relic armor was added, I don't see why new weapons shouldn't have been. Then that allows the possibility of those jobs getting something built for them (though you never know when it comes to SE...) instead of something made before their existence without their consideration.

I disagree, really. That would probably be more work to do than just adding the jobs to existing weapons.

[Alhanelem]

I disagree, really. That would probably be more work to do than just adding the jobs to existing weapons.
More work, but higher quality result.

[Suirieko]

More work, but higher quality result.

That's the thing, there is No need for another type of weapon. there's already a relic weapon for each type of weapon. It makes no sense for there to be another relic dagger just exclusive to Dancer. Honestly it makes more sense to just give the relics to the job that's already there.

for example, a relic chakram makes no sense at all, unless it have stats that will entirely boost dancer up. Same with relic book (too tired to look up the actual spelling).

So, again, why make new relic weapons when the existing one is already there.

[Alhanelem]

That's the thing, there is No need for another type of weapon.There's no need for adding jobs to existing relic weapons either, but people are asking for it anyway.



So, again, why make new relic weapons when the existing one is already there. Because new weapons would be better than tacking jobs onto old ones. New weapons could be made to better suit thew new jobs when in more than one case, the relic weapon doesn't really do much for the associated job. You'd really rather add SCH to claustrum than give it a weapon it might actually want?

[Atomic_Skull]

A relic hoop for BLU DNC that gives new relic steps and spells (specific to each job, like how Shigeto bow only gives RACC for SAM)

A relic animator that gives new relic maneuvers.

A relic Grimore that gives new relic spells.

An item that makes stacks of relic bullets for COR that enhance all rolls and shots. Flavor text would describe it as a portable bullet swagger. Feed in a steel ingot and a firesand and get a stack of 99 relic bullets. Bullets could be used instead of cards for shots.

Update Gjallarhorn with new relic songs.

Give Aegis "Shield block: converts 30% of damage received into TP"

[Juri_Licious]

Nope, Mandau for Dancer sounds a lot better.

[Atomic_Skull]

Nope, Mandau for Dancer sounds a lot better.

Too bad, your not getting that.

[Winrie]

I can't say crap like relic bullets and spells is a possible idea but Aside from that, adding newer jobs to relics is retarded, most of those jobs arent even going to benefit from old relics compared to empy weapons for those jobs, give me a point to a blu using excal over almace or a dnc using mandau over twash or a cor using annihilator over Armageddon, don't worry I'll wait. If you can't invest the time into an easily made/better weapon than why would you even ask for a relic, but sure plz let these newer jobs hold relics so we get more fun out of ppl using the wrong kinds Of equipment for their jobs and once they see they were better off with an empy, they will cry about how SE f'd it up somehow for them and demand fake unrealistic adjustments as they always do.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Annhilator completely destroys Armageddon in terms of lowering enmity generation.

Excalibur is already situationally more useful than Almace on high defense mobs.

Mandau's +35 attack and low delay with the boost to its hidden effect activation is reason enough to put it in the top ~3 daggers in the game.

[Insaniac]

give me a point to a blu using excal over almace or a dnc using mandau over twash or a cor using annihilator over Armageddon, don't worry I'll wait.

Your wait is over.

Annihilator - would be hot sauce on cor for mobs that resist WF which are more common than you would think.

Excal - would be extremely situational I imagine. Maybe it would be cool with a monster HP build?

Mandau - and twashtar are pretty competitive. Someone theory crafted that the 90 Mandau just barely beat out Twashtar because you didn't need to spam a low damage WS to get the relic triple damage procs and this was when the proc rate was 5% instead of 12%. Oh and the 95 version of mandau is about 100mil less than Twashtar.

Spharai - I'm no PUP but I imagine Stringing pummels from a +48d +35 att weapon might rip holes in the universe and with a new triple damage proc rate of 12% the ODD aftermath from VS might not be that big of an issue. The only down side is the higher delay. If someone feels like doing the math go ahead. Also you run into the 100mil cheaper level 95 weapon here too.

Clasutrum - lol staff DD. Moot point.

[Concerned4FFxi]

Economizer,
I LOVED your Mjollnir WHM comment about the SCH being on it and how Hell hath no fury than a White Mage scourned, it was 1.) the funniest thing I've heard in a long time and 2.) so very very true it spoke to my soul.

[Briarb19]

I can't say crap like relic bullets and spells is a possible idea but Aside from that, adding newer jobs to relics is retarded, most of those jobs arent even going to benefit from old relics compared to empy weapons for those jobs, give me a point to a blu using excal over almace or a dnc using mandau over twash or a cor using annihilator over Armageddon, don't worry I'll wait.

Correct me if I'm mistaken people, but hasn't SE indicated they will continue to improve on the relics? Depending entirely on how much, relics could become as powerful as Empys (which I would assume is their goal), in which case, there would obviously be a lot of reason for newer jobs to want to be included on them as well.

[Winrie]

Your wait is over.

Annihilator - would be hot sauce on cor for mobs that resist WF which are more common than you would think.

Excal - would be extremely situational I imagine. Maybe it would be cool with a monster HP build?

Mandau - and twashtar are pretty competitive. Someone theory crafted that the 90 Mandau just barely beat out Twashtar because you didn't need to spam a low damage WS to get the relic triple damage procs and this was when the proc rate was 5% instead of 12%. Oh and the 95 version of mandau is about 100mil less than Twashtar.

Spharai - I'm no PUP but I imagine Stringing pummels from a +48d +35 att weapon might rip holes in the universe and with a new triple damage proc rate of 12% the ODD aftermath from VS might not be that big of an issue. The only down side is the higher delay. If someone feels like doing the math go ahead. Also you run into the 100mil cheaper level 95 weapon here too.

Clasutrum - lol staff DD. Moot point.

Im missing the resistant to wildfire mobs? where are they. Even so Wildfire is AGI and MAB modifier + ODD, how can you say an annihilator can beat it or even be in the same field as an armageddon for corsair, saying that is like saying ranger can be better with an arma instead of annihilator.

The mandau bit i will agree on, but it only costs 100 mil more to 95 a twash if youre a fool, and upgrade process isnt even the debate atm. Once again ODD will trump mandau, +35 attack doesnt save it.

h2h relic on pup, who cares about pup, they need all the help they can get at the moment.

Excalibur on blue mage? Im not even going to try to argue that one, pointless to try.

Either way it all revolves back to my 1st comment, you have ODD on empys, you dont on relics, most every empy is focused on the jobs that can use them, along with the ODD they possess on ws, if you cant take the few days it takes to 90 an empy for your job why would you ask for it to be stamped on a relic when its weaker for your job and takes a bit longer. Troll it, argue it, it doesnt matter in the end to be honest. Youre better off with an empy for crap like blu cor dnc ect.

[Raksha]

Im missing the resistant to wildfire mobs? where are they.

http://www.bg-wiki.net/bg/Ildebrann

Also, wouldn't custom made relics basically be like mythics? We already have mythics.

[Briarb19]

you have ODD on empys, you dont on relics, most every empy is focused on the jobs that can use them, along with the ODD they possess on ws, if you cant take the few days it takes to 90 an empy for your job why would you ask for it to be stamped on a relic when its weaker for your job and takes a bit longer. Troll it, argue it, it doesnt matter in the end to be honest.

I'm assuming you don't realize (or forgot) that relics get double/triple damage on melee swings WITHOUT the aftermath that Empy requires for the same effect, so I won't go into that subject anymore.

And again, you're failing to acknowledge that SE has continued plans to improve relics and also apparently seems (given the latest 90-95 Empy trial) to be attempting to balance the time required to complete a fully upgraded Relic and Empy.

[Sotek]

You'd really rather add SCH to claustrum than give it a weapon it might actually want?

As a Scholar, no.

As someone with a reasonable sense of game balance, yes.

Giving Scholar, Dancer, Puppetmaster, Corsair and Blue Mage unique Relic weapons that are more like Mythic weapons than anything else is completely unfair to every other job. Since we're taking Claustrum as the example, Black Mage and Summoner would be royally screwed if Scholar got something completely different that was actually designed for the job.

Sure there are people saying "Giving Dancer Mandau would be unfair", but I do hope they realize that the apparent alternative is "Give Dancer it's Mythic weapon with the ease of a Relic". Except you know, unlike a Mythic weapon it will have a random double~triple damage multiplier on full time rather than after every 300TP Weapon skill as well as probably higher base damage to go along side whatever Dancer specific boost people seem to think belongs on Relic weapons. Yeah, that's a better alternative - give Dancer a Relic weapon that's effectively Mandau and Terpsichore in one that's as easy to obtain as Mandau.

[Alhanelem]

As someone with a reasonable sense of game balance, yes.how does adding a job that doesn't want a weapon to a weapon add to game balance?

if jobs don't want something, adding them to that something doesn't help anything. Every job being represented on something is not the same thing as balancing the game. Balancing it would be having something *useful* to every job.

It is reasonable to argue that it's not "fair" that certain jobs can't get a relic weapon. It's not reasonable to argue that it's not "balanced." They're not the same thing.

[Sotek]

I'm assuming you didn't read past the second sentence since you missed the entire point of my post.

[Alhanelem]

I'm assuming you didn't read past the second sentence since you missed the entire point of my post.
Nope, I read the whole post. Perhaps your point was too shrouded in secrecy to discern if you feel it wasn't understood.

I never said new weapons should be "more like mythic weapons," only that they could offer different stats on a similar order of magnitude. In fact, I never even described what their stats should be at all.

let's take the staff for instance. "Gate of Tartarus" has a refresh aftermath. Not that bad inofitself and something some SMN could make use of, but not special enough to justify nuking in the weapon so you keep your TP on SCH. "Magical Weaponskill of Coolness" for SCH could have MAB as an aftermath, and itself do magic damage. a SMN would still prefer Claustrum over the staff SCH gets; a weapon with such a WS woudn't be imbalanced to that job. Perhaps a bit to BLM, but I'm just thinking aloud.

The real point here is I never specified what the stats of the weapons for those new jobs should be, and you're acting like I'm saying "make these weapons more awesome than the others."

[Sotek]

Considering my third sentence pretty much sums up my entire point, I'm going to go with "You can't read".

Oh so you're suggesting a Claustrum Version 2.0? Well let me say, I don't want that either.

[Alhanelem]

Considering my third sentence pretty much sums up my entire point, I'm going to go with "You can't read".
Considering you were making assumptions based on things I didn't say, I'd say the same thing about you- except it's more "reading things that aren't there."

Your "point" is invalid because I never posed the suggestion that SE make new "mythic weapons" and call them relics.

[Sotek]

Haha, really?


New weapons could be made to better suit thew new jobs when in more than one case, the relic weapon doesn't really do much for the associated job.

Weapons to better suit the jobs rather than Relic weapons which generally don't. You're exact words.

Claustrum does nothing for Summoner or Black Mage. Refresh on a Weapon skill is worthless. Likewise Mandau does nothing to suit Thief, bar being a dagger; only thing Thievish on that is the Critical effect on the Weapon skill, in which case lets take Gungnir - Shock Spikes has absolutely nothing to do with Dragoon.

To actually take your suggestion though, giving a Scholar a new staff with a MAB producing Weapon Skill (I really should point out that's what Omniscience does on our Mythic with 200TP) would still be unfair to Summoner and Black Mage. Here's an idea, SE can adjust Claustrum so it's actually useful - in which case I may want it for Scholar.
Irrelevant of course, since if the Weapon skill weapons from Abyssea are anything to go off, Scholar would be on Mjollnir.

[Winrie]

I'm assuming you don't realize (or forgot) that relics get double/triple damage on melee swings WITHOUT the aftermath that Empy requires for the same effect, so I won't go into that subject anymore.

And again, you're failing to acknowledge that SE has continued plans to improve relics and also apparently seems (given the latest 90-95 Empy trial) to be attempting to balance the time required to complete a fully upgraded Relic and Empy.

I didnt forget anything, those have to proc to work, ODD comes from ws with your empyrean, the difference between the two is painted brightly on the wall, and you are ignoring or forgetting the points made, in which empyreans are strongly leaned on enhancing the jobs they are for and their modifiers and such show this, relics however are more old school traited and suited for original jobs, this cannot be disputed by anyone. And Even if they are adjusting relics it isnt our current reality, we are not 99, this is mundane and borderline idiocy to even try to give facts that say newer jobs can benefit from relics more than empyreans. And once again, ill say it a 3rd time, relic takes longer and is weaker, empy takes days-week. Do the math.

[Alhanelem]

To actually take your suggestion though, giving a Scholar a new staff with a MAB producing Weapon Skill (I really should point out that's what Omniscience does on our Mythic with 200TP) would still be unfair to Summoner and Black Mage.No, it really wouldn't. Plus said new staff could be BLM/SCH. SMN doesn't give a rats behind about magic attack bonus, thus Claustrum would still make sense for them (though the Empy staff stomps all over it)

[Sotek]

No, it really wouldn't. Plus said new staff could be BLM/SCH. SMN doesn't give a rats behind about magic attack bonus, thus Claustrum would still make sense for them (though the Empy staff stomps all over it)

So Summoner is screwed, spend 150m+ on Claustrum or get Hvergelmir to the stage where it beats Claustrum absolutely free. Nice comeback there, champ.

Adjust Claustrum to not suck and slap Scholar on it, far better solution. The only benefit of your suggestion is that it requires 100TP less than both Black Mage and Scholars Mythics to get some Magic Attack Bonus. Still an absolutely worthless weapon unless its weapon skill gives 500MAB.

[Alhanelem]

Adjust Claustrum to not suck and slap Scholar on it, far better solution.No, leave Claustrum as it is, because it is of some use to one of the jobs that can use it, if that's what you want to get; And add a new weapon that is of a bit more interest to nuking mages. you still fail to understand that while I proposed some example stats, that it could be anything, as long as it was a new weapon, and not slapping new jobs onto old weapons. Feel free to invent a relic weapon you'd want if you don't like the one I invented.

I thought it was a pretty good "comeback", myself.

They should not just slap new jobs on weapons. A more elegant solution should be sought after. These jobs should have to earn their relics, not suddenly be able to use ones originally built for other jobs before their existence without any effort.

[Sotek]

I've already posted a suggestion for a Scholar Relic (and Puppetmaster, but no stats on that since I know nothing of the job) based on Gjallarhorn. Though I'm fully aware it will never happen, but it's a more elegant solution than "To hell with the preexisting pattern lets just add new weapons".

Bard and Red Mage have nothing related to Critical Hit rates, Thief and Dancer (a trait and Feather Step off the top of my head) do - Dancer has more right to be on Mandau than two thirds of the job on it.
Corsair has every right (if not more) to be on Annihilator. Same for Blue Mage and Excalibur.
Puppetmaster is the only questionable one since Spharai has such high base damage, I offered an alternative to that which fits the current patter (A Relic Animator/Frame; as I said I know nothing of the job).
Scholar won't get anything useful either way, it will be unfair to Summoner at the very least - though the option I've suggested (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/16562-SCH-Relic(-)?p=221727&viewfull=1#post221727) does fit the current patter, it would be more fair to slap Scholar on a preexisting one since mages were royally screwed with Relics.

There really is little reason for the development team to waste time on new relics; they'd have to place new Attestation NMs, new Animated Weapons, new base Relic weapons, work out the cost - both coins and the weapon/materials used for the first two stages. Four out of five of the jobs would be perfectly suited to being on existing weapons; it's a better solution.


These jobs should have to earn their relics, not suddenly be able to use ones originally built for other jobs before their existence without any effort.

You've lost me. Blue Mage being slapped on Excalibur means Blue Mages don't have to work for the weapon? Seriously?

[Insaniac]

@ Winrie

Emps are just as generic as relics. None of them are any more geared for the jobs that use them than their relic counterparts.

Mandau triple damage favors a DNC far more than the ODD from Twashtar because a DNC doesn't spam RS unless they want to gimp their damage. In abyssea they spam Evisceration and outside they spam DE. They get to use RS once every 90 seconds when climactic flourish is up. That's 30% ODD 33% of the time at optimal performance which is not gonna happen vs. 12% Triple damage 100% of the time. MATHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

Do some VW and you will meet some WF (fire and/or magic) resistant mobs as well as some mobs that you NEVER want to pull hate on. With the proper atmacites and rolls a COR in VW can WS every 5 seconds. If I had Annihilator on COR that would probably be the only weapon I used in VW unless the mob was resistant to physical damage. The reduced enmity from WF doesn't even compare to the low static enmity and enmity down aftermath on Coronach. As for ODD I don't even shoot on COR anymore so it doesn't matter and if it did matter Anni has 12% Triple damage.

lolPUP is not an argument. PUP doesn't need VS because stringing pummel is a solid crit WS making Spharai an option. Spharai would actually probably be better for PUP than it is for MNK.

I didn't even try to argue for Excal because in this case you are right. Almace is almost always better.

Claustrum sucks and is pointless to talk about but so does Helmvegr or w/e it's called (Que melee SMNs.)

As for cost. I don't know how much HMPs are going for on your server but they are holding strong at 150-170 on lakshmi from what I have seen. Using the low end of the spectrum that's 225mil. Using the average price of currency Mandau and Spharai both cost 128mil. Even if plates stabilize at 100k that's still 22mil less and 22mil is 22mil. Even the most expensive relic will be less than a level 95 emp until HMPs drop below 100k which might never happen.

Basically take almost everything you said and the exact opposite is true.

EDIT: Just noticed something you said to someone else. Relic damage has to proc to work? WTF does that even mean? So does ODD even if it is a higher %. On top of that you need your aftermath up. Anything that says "Occasionally" has to proc to work. I wish I would have read this before I took the time to respond to you.

[Alhanelem]

You've lost me. Blue Mage being slapped on Excalibur means Blue Mages don't have to work for the weapon? Seriously? No. Blue mage being slapped on Excalibur means people who already got Excalibur long before Blue Mage came out get suddenly have the super weapon for that job the moment the job is released. That wouldn't be fair to the people who didn't know ahead of time that BLU was going to get the sword relic and that they could start working on the job's super weapon before the job even comes out.

For the most part, nobody had the best gear for the jobs right after they came out and leveled them up. The best gear for the new jobs came mainly from events added after their inception, or from gear added to other events after their inception. So basically, I feel people who would have already had the matching relic for that job before it came out would have an unfair advantage.

(Disclaimer: Blue Mage used as example. Insert any new job in its place if you want.)

[Sotek]

No. Blue mage being slapped on Excalibur means people who already got Excalibur long before Blue Mage came out get suddenly have the super weapon for that job the moment it is released.

Great choice.
Your argument has become "People who decided to level expansion jobs should have to spend another 150m for a Relic weapon that may as well be the same as the one they currently own".

Oh and for the most part people leveling new jobs would have the majority of the gear set for them, unless they went from leveling Monk to Scholar. Which is a completely ignorable scenario since no one is suggesting Scholar be put on Spharai.

[Alhanelem]

Basically, but not with the spin you put on it.

Yes, people who level the new jobs should have to get a new relic for them. It would be unfair to other players for them to start out having the super weapon for that job before anyone has even leveled that job or knew what kind of weapons it used.

Some relic weapons have more than one job, but all of them have fewer jobs on them than typical weapons do. It's pretty clear they didn't want every job that can swing a sword to use Excalibur, for instance.

You write your post as if to say that players are obligated to get a relic weapon for their jobs. They're not. But when a new job comes out, people shouldn't automatically have the best gear for them because they just happened to make the right relic beforehand.


Oh and for the most part people leveling new jobs would have the majority of the gear set for them, unless they went from leveling Monk to Scholar. Which is a completely ignorable scenario since no one is suggesting Scholar be put on Spharai. It doesn't matter what job you went from to. PUPs who played MNK didn't automatically have the best PUP gear, mages who went to BLU definitely didn't automatically have the best gear for BLU, and yada yada yada for COR.

By these jobs not being on the relic weapons, people had to work for the best weapon for the job, just like the rest of the gear.

[Sotek]

It's pretty clear they didn't want every job that can swing a sword to use Excalibur, for instance.

By the looks of how they made Relic weapons it's pretty obvious they didn't want any weapon type repeats, too. Your argument is invalid.


It doesn't matter what job you went from to. PUPs who played MNK didn't automatically have the best PUP gear, mages who went to BLU definitely didn't automatically have the best gear for BLU, and yada yada yada for COR.

Mages who went to Blue Mage? Didn't read my post again I see. The only jobs that would matter going to Blue Mage would be ones on the Relic in question. Red Mage would offer plenty of the mage related gear Blue needs, Paladin would have plenty of the damage dealer gear (Homam is an example the comes to mind).
Any White Mage or Black Mage (at Level 75) was set for Scholar.
Any Monk would have had a decent shoot at Puppetmaster; though I'll admit less since SE decided Puppetmaster was a mage.
Any Ranger would have had plenty of the general gear for Corsair.

[Alhanelem]

By the looks of how they made Relic weapons it's pretty obvious they didn't want any weapon type repeats, too. Your argument is invalid.
You have no basis to declare the argument invalid. Your statement has no relevance to mine.

Basically, you want all existing staff/dagger/sword/gun relicholders to have a free pass to the ultimate weapons for the new jobs. We get it, I disagree and I feel that they must do some work before they have the best gear for a new job.

You're not going to convince me, I'm not going to convince you, it's time we ignore eachother and be on our way.

[Sotek]

It has plenty of relevance. You think it's obvious SE didn't want any job that can swing a sword to equip Excalibur; I say it's pretty obvious they didn't want multiple weapon types to appear in the Relic line up.

SE practically confirms what I'm saying when they said they're thinking about putting new jobs on Relic weapons.

Your argument is invalid.

The fact that you think leveling any job that's on a Relic doesn't set someone up gear wise for any of the five new jobs just further invalidates your argument. They're not going to have the best gear simply because it comes from the new events that accompany the jobs expansion; Relic weapons are almost as old as this game is.

[Dirtyfinger]

He's just upset no one really uses his site (probably because of him) so he trolls people on other forums. I have no regrets from blocking him when he first started posting on here.

[Alhanelem]

He's just upset no one really uses his site (probably because of him) so he trolls people on other forums. I have no regrets from blocking him when he first started posting on here.
1) it's not my site, I just contribute to it by helping out with gruntwork
2)this has absolutely nothing whatsoever to with the site at all.

I'm not here to troll (Troll suggests intent, I have no such intent- Just because a discussion happens spins out of control doesn't mean I'm trying to do it), I'm not here to make friends or enemies, I'm purely here to share my opinion.

Think whatever the heck you want, that doesn't make it a fact. I have nothing further to say.

[Sotek]

Think whatever the heck you want, that doesn't make it a fact.

Thinking what I think doesn't make it fact.

The fact that SE has practically confirmed slapping new jobs on old Relic weapons, however, does make it fact.

[Alhanelem]

The fact that SE has practically confirmed slapping new jobs on old Relic weaponsFunny, I just saw them confirm that they have no plans to do this.

P.S.+1 for the troll, by the way, but it's not going to work anymore.

[Sotek]

Do you have to try hard to not read this well?


Hey guys! We forwarded your feedback to the dev. team and they let us know that they have indeed looked into increasing the number of jobs that can use relic weapons, but as of right now there are no plans to implement this change.

Game over.

[Alhanelem]

as of right now there are no plans to implement this change.Game over.

[Sotek]

Anyone spare a hand? I need to triple facepalm.

[Kimble]

Game over.

They also said for years that they were not interested in raising the level cap past 75 and then they did. The fact that they have looked into it and are thinking about it, means its possible. Saying they arent going to do it right now, doesn't mean they never will.

For all you know, they will change it after 99 cap and merits are done, etc.

Further more, the whole "its not fair if someone already owns a relic and they slap BLU on it, that now their BLU can use it" is pretty dumb. Its like you are saying "if someone got gear for their MNK and PUP happens to be able to use it, they shouldnt be allowed to use that gear on PUP unless they redo it all over again"

[Sotek]

Considering they've planned their updates out as far as March, they're pretty much saying nothing more than "We've thought of doing this, however we currently have not allocated the time to implement it". They've got a whole new zone planned so I imagine they're quite strapped for extra time.

Best case scenario they change their mind, but I don't think they'll buck the trend of Relic weapons representing each weapon type rather than job - the furthest they could go I imagine is adding a Relic Grimoire and Animator for the ammo slots of Scholar and Puppetmaster. Adding what would effectively be copies of existing weapons just to make people work harder is highly unlikely (and when I say make people work harder I mean us and the developers).

[Atomic_Skull]

Mandau triple damage favors a DNC far more than the ODD from Twashtar because a DNC doesn't spam RS unless they want to gimp their damage. In abyssea they spam Evisceration and outside they spam DE. They get to use RS once every 90 seconds when climactic flourish is up. That's 30% ODD 33% of the time at optimal performance which is not gonna happen vs. 12% Triple damage 100% of the time. MATHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

Empyrean ODD can proc on the second and third hit of double and triple attack, the ODD/ODT on relics can only proc on the first hit.

[Atomic_Skull]

SE practically confirms what I'm saying when they said they're thinking about putting new jobs on Relic weapons.


What they actually said was that they aren't going to do it. "we considered it but have no current plans to do it" has always been SE speak for "hell no we're not doing that"

[Kimble]

What they actually said was that they aren't going to do it. "we considered it but have no current plans to do it" has always been SE speak for "hell no we're not doing that"

Expect you know, the whole level cap thing I just said 3 posts ago.

[Insaniac]

Empyrean ODD can proc on the second and third hit of double and triple attack, the ODD/ODT on relics can only proc on the first hit.
I'm aware of this but it doesn't effect DNC that much outside of abyssea as they don't have a particularly high DA or TA rate without atmas. 13% DA (23% if /war) and 3% TA? I may be forgetting a bunch of gear since I haven't leveled DNC because it can't use Mandau. But.. using those numbers:

1000 attack rounds 1283 swings
Twashtar - 128 ODD procs
Mandau - 120 Triple procs - Equivalent damage increase of 180 ODD procs.

In abyssea with 23% DA and 28% TA (Apoc and AO)

1000 attack rounds 1790 swings
Twashtar - 179 ODD procs
Mandau - 120 Triple procs - Equivalent damage increase of 180 ODD procs.

Now RS will do more damage with Climactic flourish because of it's stat mod and the atmas your are using inside abyssea but then you have to look at the fact that the DEX you get from Twashtar amounts to almost nothing but a WS mod since your dDEX and acc will be capped. Your pDif however will not and there just happens to be 35 att on mandau and increased crit rate from the MS aftermath. In abyssea I would say they are too close to call but outside, from my perspective, Mandau takes the lead for DNC.

All this favors Twashtar by quite a bit too because it assumes you are never not fighting and you never have to wait on timers or TP and your aftermath is never up while you are moving to a new mob and you never kill the mob with the first swing on your main hand. In other words a situation which does not exist. It also assumes /war which may not always be the case.

[Atomic_Skull]

Expect you know, the whole level cap thing I just said 3 posts ago.

So they might change their minds 5 or 6 years down the road. But for the forseeable future, they aren't going to do it.

[Atomic_Skull]

(double post)

[Kimble]

So they might change their minds 5 or 6 years down the road. But for the forseeable future, they aren't going to do it.

Nope, all it means is while they wont do it now, doesnt mean they wont ever. They have said this many times before about other things as well. When they actually mean they wont, they don't even say that they have looked into it. They just say "the development team has no desire to add this"

[Juri_Licious]

So they might change their minds 5 or 6 years down the road. But for the forseeable future, they aren't going to do it.

This is really bothering you deeply isn't it? It's like you're trying you're hardest to hope this will never happen.
What will you do if it does happen?

[Zeo]

I'd say they should worry more about correcting the issues with the weapons themselves. Only a handful of them are worth getting over their mythic/empyrean counterparts. A lot of them suffer from a poor aftermath and/or a poor WS.

[Raksha]

Yes, people who level the new jobs should have to get a new relic for them. It would be unfair to other players for them to start out having the super weapon for that job before anyone has even leveled that job or knew what kind of weapons it used.


I hate to bring this up again, but, if I lvl RNG, and get the relic bow, then decide I want to lvl SAM/RNG to also use the bow, would I have to make a 2nd relic bow just to use for SAM? Because it seems to me that is what you are implying should happen.

I have a friend who Got a Mandau for her THF and decided to lvl BRD and RDM to use it also, are you saying she should have had to make 2 more Mandaus?

[hiko]

No. Blue mage being slapped on Excalibur means people who already got Excalibur long before Blue Mage came out get suddenly have the super weapon for that job the moment the job is released. That wouldn't be fair to the people who didn't know ahead of time that BLU was going to get the sword relic and that they could start working on the job's super weapon before the job even comes out.

what?
because BLU was able to equip exca when BLU was released? or BLU doesn't exist yet and will only exist after SE add em on exca? we dont ask SE to get a time machineso they can go add blu on exca on AU release but to ad a job that existed for 5years on some older item

and how is that different than a RDM get exca then unlock and lvl PLD ?

your point is just stupid!

[Asymptotic]

I'm aware of this but it doesn't effect DNC that much outside of abyssea as they don't have a particularly high DA or TA rate without atmas. 13% DA (23% if /war) and 3% TA? I may be forgetting a bunch of gear since I haven't leveled DNC because it can't use Mandau. But.. using those numbers:


Saber Dance!

[Alhanelem]

I have a friend who Got a Mandau for her THF and decided to lvl BRD and RDM to use it also, are you saying she should have had to make 2 more Mandaus? No, I'm not saying that at all. That dagger was created with those jobs in consideration. It was not created with DNC in consideration. DNC was not even out when the weapon was created. I feel it would be unfair for people to automatically have the best weapon for a NEW job when it comes out when everyone had to work for the best of most of the rest of the gear after the job's release. It also punishes people who started working on a relic with the understanding of what jobs could use it, only to have that suddenly change. I imagine there are some people who got this or that relic that would have regretted getting it if they knew they were going to play a new job and it used a different relic.

Maybe it seems kind of silly, and it's fine if you think so. I'm only giving an opinion, and I'm not trying to force you to agree with it. By all means, hate it, disagree with it if you want.


I haven't leveled DNC because it can't use Mandau.Honestly one of the silliest things I've ever heard. It just goes to show how lazy relic users can be and how entitled to everything they feel they are. Heaven forbid you should need to get a new weapon for DNC. What if DNC didn't use daggers in the first place? Would you still be refusing to play it purely because you can't use your relic on it?

Regardless of what you think of the opinion I gave, SE has already weighed in on this. I don't really see any reason why this has to keep going on and on.

[Kimble]

Regardless of what you think of the opinion I gave, SE has already weighed in on this. I don't really see any reason why this has to keep going on and on.

Because the more and more people that show they want this change, the more and more SE will look further into and make this change.

They said they wont do it now, they didn't say they never will.

[Raksha]

No, I'm not saying that at all. That dagger was created with those jobs in consideration. It was not created with DNC in consideration. DNC was not even out when the weapon was created. I feel it would be unfair for people to automatically have the best weapon for a NEW job when it comes out when everyone had to work for the best of most of the rest of the gear after the job's release. It also punishes people who started working on a relic with the understanding of what jobs could use it, only to have that suddenly change. I imagine there are some people who got this or that relic that would have regretted getting it if they knew they were going to play a new job and it used a different relic.



You are right, that sounds very silly to me.

A newbie DNC who has to work for their Mandau is no different from a newbie THF who has to work for their Mandau. I seriously don't see how you can't understand this. If relics had been released before RotZ, would you be arguing that SAM shouldn't be added to the bow? or BRD shouldn't be added to the dagger? Or SMN shouldn't be added to Claustrum?

[Alhanelem]

A newbie DNC who has to work for their Mandau is no different from a newbie THF who has to work for their Mandau.It's very different. This isn't about a newbie making a new weapon. this is about people who already have the weapon before another job that might use it even exists.


Or SMN shouldn't be added to Claustrum? Summoner does not require Zilart and isn't officially a Zilart job.

But yes, jobs should not be added to the weapons after the fact when those weapons were not designed with the existence of those jobs in mind. SE typically responded to this issue by adding new items.

[Suirieko]

You have no basis to declare the argument invalid. Your statement has no relevance to mine.

Basically, you want all existing staff/dagger/sword/gun relicholders to have a free pass to the ultimate weapons for the new jobs. We get it, I disagree and I feel that they must do some work before they have the best gear for a new job.

You're not going to convince me, I'm not going to convince you, it's time we ignore eachother and be on our way.

Wrong. Working on a relic, even at this point of the game is NOT an easy endeavor. These jobs have already been around for far more than 4 years. Getting relic weapon, alone, is enough as it is. This isn't a free pass. They already spent a lot of effort making a relic weapon, why should they work on another relic weapon just for one job.

I'm close to finishing mandau myself for my THF, why do I have to work on another dagger when bard and red mage can also use mandau. This makes no sense.

Those five jobs shouldn't even be considered as new. Dancer and Scholar has been around for 4 years. Corsair, Blue Mage, and Puppetmaster has been around for five years.

Not to mention nearly every relic weapons are equipable by multiple jobs. So therefore, there is no reason for new relics to be made JUST because those 5 jobs are newer.

Basically what you're saying is, at the time I'll be getting Mandau, THF would the only job i have that could equip it. Leveling Red Mage and Bard to use it would be getting "free pass" to the weapon. The only different is, Dancer is a newer job compared to RDM and BRD. So I agree, that is a flawed and silly argument.

[Kimble]

It's very different. This isn't about a newbie making a new weapon. this is about people who already have the weapon before another job that might use it even exists.

Summoner does not require Zilart and isn't officially a Zilart job.

But yes, jobs should not be added to the weapons after the fact. SE typically responded to this issue by adding new items.

So, anyone that had Homam, Nashira, Crimson gear before BLU came out, should have to go back and re get those items if they got it before BLU was put on it back then?

SE was being shortsighted by not planning this change when they were planning to add new jobs. Hell it took them like, 2 years before they even added af1+1 and af2 for COR/BLU/PUP. This is just another thing that they have been dragging their ass on that needs to be changed.

Not everything SE does is right.

[Alhanelem]

why do I have to work on another dagger when bard and red mage can also use mandau.BECAUSE YOU DO! Making a relic doesn't give you some kind of magic entitlement to have the best weapon for every job that could use a dagger. It was designed for specific jobs, and those specific jobs only. X job and Y job using a weapon does not automatically mean job Z should also be able to use it.

Maybe they should have made a single relic weapon, and made it all jobs. It magically morphs to whatever weapon class your have the highest skill in. That way everyone would only need to make one superweapon to have the best weapon for every job in the game.

----------------------



Those five jobs shouldn't even be considered as new. I'm not speaking about right now. I'm speaking about when those jobs were released. Does a passage of X number of years suddenly justify a change?


So, anyone that had Homam, Nashira, Crimson gear before BLU came out, should have to go back and re get those items if they got it before BLU was put on it back then?Huh? No, absolutely not. If an item has the job on it, then it has the job on it. We're talking about items that do not have the job, not items that do.


SE was being shortsighted by not planning this change when they were planning to add new jobs. Hell it took them like, 2 years before they even added af1+1 and af2 for COR/BLU/PUP. This is just another thing that they have been dragging their ass on that needs to be changed.
I 100% agree it was shortsighted- obviously they don't plan as far in advance as we might expect. That doesn't mean this situation needs changing, however.

It boggles my mind why people are even arguing about this when in essentially all cases, the options already given to these jobs are better than the relics. This is something that simply just doesn't need to be done. This is really such a trivial issue.

[Suirieko]

No, I'm not saying that at all. That dagger was created with those jobs in consideration. It was not created with DNC in consideration. DNC was not even out when the weapon was created. I feel it would be unfair for people to automatically have the best weapon for a NEW job when it comes out when everyone had to work for the best of most of the rest of the gear after the job's release. It also punishes people who started working on a relic with the understanding of what jobs could use it, only to have that suddenly change. I imagine there are some people who got this or that relic that would have regretted getting it if they knew they were going to play a new job and it used a different relic.

How is it Unfair? They already worked their ass off for the relic weapon already. They deserve to be able to use the relic on Dancer, if and when Dancer is finally able to equip it. Obtaining a relic weapon is not as easy as obtaining a homam gear, let alone empyrean weapon, and most of the other shit in game.

[Kimble]

BECAUSE YOU DO! Making a relic doesn't give you some kind of magic entitlement to have the best weapon for every job that could use a dagger.

Is it really so unreasonable to want a job that excels in said weapon, to be able to use the relic of that weapon?

No one is saying "hey, lets add NIN and WAR to dagger!" They are saying add DNC, a job who excels in dagger, to be able to use it.

[Alhanelem]

How is it Unfair? They already worked their ass off for the relic weapon already. They deserve to be able to use the relic on Dancer, if and when Dancer is finally able to equip it. Obtaining a relic weapon is not as easy as obtaining a homam gear, let alone empyrean weapon, and most of the other shit in game.
They worked their ass off for it knowing full well what jobs could use it. There was no reason to expect that some unknown job in the future would be able to use it or even that it would be good for the job if they did get to use it. Nobody made a Mandau specifically to benefit an unknown job that didn't exist when they made it.

[Kimble]

I swear to god you disagree just to disagree.

[Alhanelem]

I swear to god you disagree just to disagree.
I disagree.

[/intentional irony]

I don't disagree just to disagree. You can find me agreeing with people in many threads. I disagree with something when I honestly, truly don't think it should be done.

I did not take on a contrary viewpoint in this thread with the intent and purpose of having a fight. i took on that viewpoint because that was my actual viewpoint.

[Kimble]

So really, in your opinion. Any gear we have now, should never be allowed to be used by any job that might be added, because that is just unfair?

Again, BLU should have never been added to crimson/homam/nashira then?

[Suirieko]

BECAUSE YOU DO! Making a relic doesn't give you some kind of magic entitlement to have the best weapon for every job that could use a dagger. It was designed for specific jobs, and those specific jobs only. X job and Y job using a weapon does not automatically mean job Z should also be able to use it.

Maybe they should have made a single relic weapon, and made it all jobs. It magically morphs to whatever weapon class your have the highest skill in. That way everyone would only need to make one superweapon to have the best weapon for every job in the game. Dancer isn’t a job “that can use a dagger” it is a job that PRIMARILY uses a dagger, which is exactly the same case as Thief. Red Mage doesn’t even primarily use dagger, AND they also have Excalibur. Bard, even though it CAN primarily use dagger, the job barely melees as it is and you will likely never see a bard having Mandau and not having Thief NOR red mage leveled.


This isn’t about giving relic to jobs just because they can use it. This is about giving relic weapons to five newer jobs that primarily uses it. Especially in the case of Mandau, Corsair, Blue Mage, and puppet master. Scholar is still iffy because of the ‘fake relic’ situation. (Scholar can wield fake club relic but not staff, despite them using staff primarily).

And finally, Twashtar is equippable by Dancer and Thief, and they are the two jobs that primarily uses dagger. Wow. What an amazing coincident.

It makes sense to even argue that Dancer can equip mandau because they are primarily dagger users, and same with annihilator and corsair and for spharai for pup, and excalibur for Blue mage, and staff for scholar.


I'm not speaking about right now. I'm speaking about when those jobs were released. Does a passage of X number of years suddenly justify a change?

Huh? No, absolutely not. If an item has the job on it, then it has the job on it. We're talking about items that do not have the job, not items that do.

I 100% agree it was shortsighted- obviously they don't plan as far in advance as we might expect. That doesn't mean this situation needs changing, however.

It boggles my mind why people are even arguing about this when in essentially all cases, the options already given to these jobs are better than the relics. This is something that simply just doesn't need to be done. This is really such a trivial issue. It was an oversight by SE and situation that SE refuses to correct. You cannot sit there and tell me that it’s fair that just because the five newer jobs were made after dynamis, they can’t equip relic.

For some jobs, sure, empyreans are better. For Mandau and Dancer, that’s actually a debatable option, and also, since SE is considering giving these relic weapons a significant boost for level 99 cap, that’s going to very likely change.

Also, it boggles my mind why you are even saying that it’s fair for five newer jobs to get completely new relic weapons (Not to be confused with empyrean and mythic) just because those five jobs didn’t exist at the time Dynamis came out.

It would be obvious as hell that if Those five jobs were around when Dancer came out, they would be able to have the said relic.

[Suirieko]

They worked their ass off for it knowing full well what jobs could use it. There was no reason to expect that some unknown job in the future would be able to use it or even that it would be good for the job if they did get to use it. Nobody made a Mandau specifically to benefit an unknown job that didn't exist when they made it.

So. What. That's like saying it's unfair for blue mage to use Homam because it didn't exist when Homam came out. That is like saying it's unfair for corsair to even wield Blood/Crimson Cuisses (aka W.Legs)

Edit: let me tell you that W.legs is NOt an easy piece of gear to obtain due to its rarity.

[Sotek]

Those five jobs shouldn't even be considered as new. Dancer and Scholar has been around for 4 years. Corsair, Blue Mage, and Puppetmaster has been around for five years.

I feel it's worth noting that Blue Mage has been in FFXI since its release. I'd go as far as to say all Treasures jobs were; the original trailer quite clearly shows zones similar to Wajaom and Blue Magic. Bare minimum these jobs and zones were planned from the word go.

I think I'm actually going to listen to something Alhanelem has said and ignore him. His opinion is clearly in the wrong, forcing a person who leveled Thief and Dancer to work on what will effectively be a clone of Mandau - a weapon they may already have - is completely ridiculous. SE has basically already confirmed what they're doing. This is less of a debate or discussion and more of a tantrum with Alhanelem desperately trying to offer an alternative by spewing increasingly ridiculous claims.


They worked their ass off for it knowing full well what jobs could use it. There was no reason to expect that some unknown job in the future would be able to use it or even that it would be good for the job if they did get to use it. Nobody made a Mandau specifically to benefit an unknown job that didn't exist when they made it.

So if I leveled Paladin, obtained Excalibur, then leveled Blue Mage, it's unfair for Blue Mage to be added to Excalibur? Because I'd rather spend an additional 150m, right?

Or is it, I leveled Paladin, obtained Excalibur, then leveled Dancer, so it's unfair that I wasted effort on Excalibur when I now want Mandau?

I don't know which I want you to mean, because both are equally stupid. If I worked on Excalibur I can very easily work on a new Relic weapon - certainly by todays standards - but ignoring that it's not like I've got to toss Excalibur to obtain Mandau - it's not wasted effort.
Unless I originally worked on Claustrum before really enjoying Dancer I'm not going to look at my Relic weapon and go "What a waste". It means I'll have two unique Relic weapons, having what will effectively be copies of existing weapons just to satisfy some nonexistent sense of wrong doing towards Relic holders makes absolutely no sense. Either way someone with a Excalibur is going to have to work on a Relic dagger for Dancer. It's not unfair for this Paladin turned Dancer, it is unfair on the Mandau Thief turned Dancer, though.

[Alhanelem]

Also, it boggles my mind why you are even saying that it’s fair for five newer jobs to get completely new relic weapons (Not to be confused with empyrean and mythic) just because those five jobs didn’t exist at the time Dynamis came out.it's fair because those jobs would have to work for their relics instead of automatically having one for free because people made them before the job came out.

Id go so far as to say it's hard to imagine why anyone wouldn't want new ones over being tacked on to the old ones, which were not in any way made with the new jobs in mind. New weapons would be built with the new jobs in mind. It would also mean new weaponskills with new additional effects. Who wouldn't want that? It would make a lot more sense than slapping jobs onto weapons that weren't designed for those jobs.

[Kimble]

it's fair because those jobs would have to work for their relics instead of automatically having one for free because people made them before the job came out.

Id go so far as to say it's hard to imagine why anyone wouldn't want new ones over being tacked on to the old ones, which were not in any way made with the new jobs in mind. New weapons would be built with the new jobs in mind. It would also mean new weaponskills with new additional effects. Who wouldn't want that? It would make a lot more sense than slapping jobs onto weapons that weren't designed for those jobs.

Because all that does, is take a crap on the 15 other jobs that have relic. Adding jobs to existing relics would give 4 of the 5 a benefit (mandau being a strong DD weapon for DNC, Gun being a good physical weapon for COR, H2H being a good defensive weapon for PUP, and sword being a good DD choice for BLU)

You keep whining that adding jobs to current weapons is unfair because if someone owns a relic and happens to have a job leveled that is being added to said relic would mean they are getting it "for free" No, they arent. They already spent the time and money to get the weapon.

[Sotek]

I know I said I'd ignore you, but wow.


it's fair because those jobs would have to work for their relics instead of automatically having one for free because people made them before the job came out.

THEY DON'T GET IT FOR FREE!

THEY STILL SPENT THE GIL TO OBTAIN THE WEAPON. THE PALADIN WHO LEVELED BLUE MAGE WHEN IT CAME OUT STILL PUT THE TIME IN TO OBTAIN HOMAM GEAR. THEY. DON'T. GET. IT. FOR. FREE.

Seriously, do you think Blue Mages are just going to get Excaliburs in the Mog House if SE does this? The job doesn't matter; only in the sense that the new jobs match the weapon. The individual still put the work into the weapon.

[Suirieko]

it's fair because those jobs would have to work for their relics instead of automatically having one for free because people made them before the job came out.

Id go so far as to say it's hard to imagine why anyone wouldn't want new ones over being tacked on to the old ones, which were not in any way made with the new jobs in mind. New weapons would be built with the new jobs in mind. It would also mean new weaponskills with new additional effects. Who wouldn't want that? It would make a lot more sense than slapping jobs onto weapons that weren't designed for those jobs.

That's just it. They're not getting it for "free" they already spent a HELL of an effort getting these relic weapons (I will admit that relic weapons are easier to get relic now compared to before). So therefore, there's no "free pass" because it was already damn difficult to get the relic weapons, and there is no need to make it anymore difficult just because the said jobs are newer.

I already spent 3 months working on Mandau. I'm most certainly not getting it for free

400 byne bills != Free
1400 Ordelle Bronzepieces != Free
6200 Tukuku Whiteshells != Free
10000 (technically 7000) != Free

Not to mention getting the required items as well. (Fragment, attestation, necropsyches, crafting materials needed for it).

It took a LOT of time getting the relic weapons. Like I said, I'm almost done with Mandau (I am taking a break now because I can't get on FFXI for now), why do I have to do even more work just so I can equip it on Dancer?

And also, that's just it. Every jobs can use Empyrean. Every jobs can use Mythics, so, why CAN'T every jobs use relic weapons? That's the argument here, every job should be able to use relics as well, to maintain equality.

The Homam wasn't "built around BLU" and yet they can equip it.

The W. Abjuration set wasn't built around "Corsair" and yet they can equip it.

I could just go on and on and on.

Let's not even forget that all 5 of the newer said jobs can equip the fake relic weapons.

It's now an issue because relic weapons are now easier to obtain than before thanks to Dynamis changes. they don't need to rely on 18 to 36 people to get relic done when they could solo it to doing it in small group.

[Sotek]

Oh look he's back to "It would be better for the jobs because the new weapons would be built around them". Not like I shot that argument down ten pages ago.

[Alhanelem]

It took a LOT of time getting the relic weapons. Like I said, I'm almost done with MandauJust because you spent X million gil on something, it doesn't entitle you to have the weapon twisted to work on any job you want it to work on.

I spent many millions on the PUP attachments. not 100 mil, to be sure, but still a lot. I can't use any of these items on anything but PUP. Does that mean it wasn't worth it? Should these items be made to be useful to everyone else? No. You paid 150 mil to get the best thief/bard/redmage weapon, not the best dancer weapon.

A somewhat poor analogy, I admit, but just because you spent a lot of gil on something, that doesn't mean you can have everything you want.

Making relics easier to get makes this less of an issue, not more, in my eye. Everyone who feels they can get a relic is going for one with the understanding of what jobs it can be used on. I don't know anyone who's making a mandau because they think SE will change it so DNC can use it, at least. The sooner they would make new weapons, the sooner people who want a relic for DNC could just switch to that.


Every jobs can use Empyrean. Every jobs can use Mythics, so, why CAN'T every jobs use relic weapons?Because there isn't any obligation to make <insert content here> useable by all jobs. Not every activity you do has an equivalent item for every job. I suppose it would be a good thing, but that doesn't mean they have to do it.

By the by, if you really want to you absolutely CAN get all your currency for free, since dynamis doesn't cost anything anymore. Gil only expidites the process, it's not an absolute necessity.

[Sotek]

I swear, I was literally about to edit in that you'd say this.


By the by, if you really want to you absolutely CAN get all your currency for free, since dynamis doesn't cost anything anymore. Gil only expidites the process, it's not an absolute necessity.

Ever heard the saying time is money?

Heck, screw that line of thought, you are aware that what you've just described has always been the case? Vastly slower but you still could have obtained a Relic for free; it would have just taken ages. Get a Linkshell, have someone buy the Hourglass, you take all the currency, donate an appropriate sum of the currency to cover the cost of the Hourglass. You don't pay a dime and obtain the majority of the currency. Quite a few Dynamis Linkshells worked on the basis that one person obtains all the currency and the rest are just their for their Duelist's Chapeau; before you say anything.

Since Relics have always been free, I guess you no longer have any complaint with other jobs obtaining them for free.

[Suirieko]

Just because you spent X million gil on something, it doesn't entitle you to have the weapon twisted to work on any job you want it to work on. That isn't even what this argument is all about.

This isn't about "any job you want it on" this is about the fact that Dancer has no access to relic weapon, and giving them access to Mandau fixes it. If SE wants to make magian trial to do that. Fine. I'll understand that. I'll even understand if it requires 400 byne bills.



I spent many millions on the PUP attachments. not 100 mil, to be sure, but still a lot. I can't use any of these items on anything but PUP. Does that mean it wasn't worth it? Should these items be made to be useful to everyone else? No. You paid 150 mil to get the best thief/bard/redmage weapon, not the best dancer weapon.

A somewhat poor analogy, I admit, but just because you spent a lot of gil on something, that doesn't mean you can have everything you want.
Completely flawed anology, I will agree. Those are exclusively puppetmaster attachments. The different is. Thief and Dancer are primary dagger weapons, therefore I believe Dancer should have access to it because of that reasoning alone. This is the same with all the other jobs.

So, once again, this isn't about granting access to relic weapons just because they could use the weapon. (IE, Ninja, etc), this is about granting the five newer jobs access to relic weapons because they have no access yet and I feel that it's time that they do. This is about fixing an oversight that SE should've fixed long time ago.


Making relics easier to get makes this less of an issue, not more, in my eye. Everyone who feels they can get a relic is going for one with the understanding of what jobs it can be used on. I don't know anyone who's making a mandau because they think SE will change it so DNC can use it, at least. The sooner they would make new weapons, the sooner people who want a relic for DNC could just switch to that.See, that's a completely flawed logic there, and is a silly idea. There are already one relic weapon for each type and no more. Why is it that SE have to make new relic weapons, made ONLY for one of each of the five newer jobs. How does it even make sense, especially lore-wise. It doesn't even fit, story-wise.

So far, every argument you have made is a poor argument, and is completely silly. Not one of your argument is sound.


By the by, if you really want to you absolutely CAN get all your currency for free, since dynamis doesn't cost anything anymore. Gil only expidites the process, it's not an absolute necessity.

Never said it doesn't cost gil but it is certainly not "free". Ever heard of the phrase "TANSTAAFL" Aka There aint no such thing as a free lunch. Just because you get free lunch doesn't mean it was free. Efforts were made to get you the free lunch. Efforts were made to make the lunch. SOMEBODY paid for the lunch, and it isn't you that got the free lunch.

This is the same case with relics. No one gets the "relic weapon" for free (Except for Nomad Moogle Bonanza). A LOT of effort put into getting it, whether you paid for it yourself, or whether you farmed up for currencies, or whether the LS farmed up the currencies for you. It was not free.

You don't get the relic for "free" even if you spent not a single gil on it. I personally have farmed up every currencies, with the help of my friends to get the relic weapons, and have spent several million gils to somewhat expedite the process.

I'm getting Mandau for my THF, and I would love to be able to use it on my Dancer as well. Thief and Dancer are two of my three favorite jobs in the game.

I have thought over this for a while and I can't even come up with a reason why Dancer can't use Mandau, as well as other 4 said jobs and the said respective weapons.

Granted, for lore, it's questionable for blue mage, Corsair, and puppetmaster. However, Dancers and Scholars have clearly been involved with the Crystal war, and lore wise, could have been cleary sucked into Dynamis as part of the lost Hydra corps.

Dancers use daggers as a primary weapon, as much as thief does, so Mandau benefits Dancer perfectly. Dancers even have access to Clement Skean, which is the only other weapon that have Mercy Stroke, further justifying that Dancers should be able to use Mandau.

[Insaniac]

Saber Dance!
Derp~ I was thinking Saber Dance was the one that didn't allow you to use sambas and wasn't used that often. There are a lot of situations where you wouldn't be able to use it and it doesn't stack with the trait so it doesn't make a huge difference in the numbers.

[Alhanelem]

How does it even make sense, especially lore-wise. It doesn't even fit, story-wise.there are plenty of ways you can make up stuff like that. It's a freakin' fantasy world, SE can do whatever it wants.

You'd expect the key representatives of DNC and SCH at least to be using a relic weapon in the crystal war, since there are NPCs wielding the other relics. Adelheid is seen wearing some club in battle. I don't really recognize the model, but it looks unique. The lead NPC in the dancer squad in Pashhow [S] doesn't use a mandau, if I'm recalling correctly. They really wouldn't need to twist the lore much to add in relic weapons for those two. The other three would take more work but they can essentially make up whatever they please.

So whatever you do, don't play the lore card. SE can do whatever they want with the lore. There is lots of lore in the game that doesn't make much sense, especially in WOTG.


Derp~ I was thinking Saber Dance was the one that didn't allow you to use sambas and wasn't used that often.Fan Dance

[Arcon]

Mathematically it makes sense to let the new jobs join the old relic weapons because of what they are, a categorical partition of the weapon classes ("the best of each weapon"), which would be directly violated by adding new weapons. That's the only rational argument in here, everything else, no matter if well founded or not, is an opinion and not worth arguing about.

[Atomic_Skull]

THF PUP MNK RNG and DNC should be able to equip the Grim Cuirass and other heavy armors. There is no reason SE should not do this because DRG used to be restricted to leather and cloth armor and was later moved to plate. In addition there is a lot of mage specific gear with MP and enhancements to spellcasting abilities that these jobs can equip. If they an equip that, then why not heavy armors as well?

[Kimble]

there are plenty of ways you can make up stuff like that. It's a freakin' fantasy world, SE can do whatever it wants.

You'd expect the key representatives of DNC and SCH at least to be using a relic weapon in the crystal war, since there are NPCs wielding the other relics. Adelheid is seen wearing some club in battle. I don't really recognize the model, but it looks unique. The lead NPC in the dancer squad in Pashhow [S] doesn't use a mandau, if I'm recalling correctly. They really wouldn't need to twist the lore much to add in relic weapons for those two. The other three would take more work but they can essentially make up whatever they please.

So whatever you do, don't play the lore card. SE can do whatever they want with the lore. There is lots of lore in the game that doesn't make much sense, especially in WOTG.

Fan Dance

Its SE, they can do whatever they want. Like add DNC and Mandau and change the leader of the DNCs in WoTG to using a Mandau.

You really can't play the "se can do whatever they want card" but then say "SE would never do this"

[Atomic_Skull]

They really wouldn't need to twist the lore much to add in relic weapons for those two. The other three would take more work but they can essentially make up whatever they please.

Mandau's owner in the Crystal War was a Taru THF as described in the Vanadiel Tribune and shown in the cutscene where you receive it from his ghost.


So. What. That's like saying it's unfair for blue mage to use Homam because it didn't exist when Homam came out. That is like saying it's unfair for corsair to even wield Blood/Crimson Cuisses (aka W.Legs)

BLU didn't exist as a player job but one the the NPCs in the cutscene that plays when you get your first piece ot Homam or Nashira is a blue mage, and mentions how researching the biomechanical weapon body part you have turned in will aid in "reviving the light deity" (aka Alexander) This was years before TOAU.

[Briarb19]

THF PUP MNK RNG and DNC should be able to equip the Grim Cuirass and other heavy armors. There is no reason SE should not do this because DRG used to be restricted to leather and cloth armor and was later moved to plate. In addition there is a lot of mage specific gear with MP and enhancements to spellcasting abilities that these jobs can equip. If they an equip that, then why not heavy armors as well?

Seriously, this isn't a topic about the imbalance associated with DNC updates compared to what THFs have gotten, so why are you still here arguing? It's very obvious your only motive in feeling the way you do is based merely on you feeling scorned by the DNC updates and what you feel it has done to THF, but do I really have to repeat that this topic has other jobs in the mix that need to be factored in here? Your last argument where you attempted to blur the clear line here with "armor arguments" was your weakest attempt yet at creating a whole lot of something out of nothing.

The topic is simple one. There are three classes of end game 'top tier' weapons. Five of the game's jobs are limited to only two of them. We're requesting SE fix that. The End. Now please, again, respectfully take this "DNC vs THF updates" topic somewhere else.

[Alhanelem]

Its SE, they can do whatever they want. Like add DNC and Mandau and change the leader of the DNCs in WoTG to using a Mandau.

You really can't play the "se can do whatever they want card" but then say "SE would never do this"
Actually I can. Anyone who's played this game for long enough can discern what things SE is and isn't likely to do. They could change the lore and add new weapons, they could add a giant cake monster that drop train engines which you use to open a cookie and find the magic flute, which summon palm trees until monkeys fall down. Then you beat the monkeys wearing hats because there are monkeys that don't wear hats that help you fight the ones that do wear hats. Then you collect the power orbs they drop and use them to open a chest that holds the Sword of Plot Advancement +2. They could add Ryu from Street Fighter and have him throw hadukens at absolute virtue to beat him. They could have a fight with Altana and you use the master sword with the triforce of courage to summon the monster from the black lagoon to raise your power level over 9000 to be able to win.

The only thing I know for sure is a community rep posted in this thread to say they're not planning to add the new jobs to the relic weapons. That, of course, doesn't prevent them from doing something else if they so wish. That "something else" is about as bout as likely to be my idea as it is anyone elses.

[Kimble]

Actually I can. Anyone who's played this game for long enough can discern what things SE is and isn't likely to do. They could change the lore and add new weapons, they could add a giant cake monster that drop train engines which you use to open a cookie and find the magic flute, which summon palm trees until monkeys fall down. Then you beat the monkeys wearing hats because there are monkeys that don't wear hats that help you fight the ones that do wear hats. Then you collect the power orbs they drop and use them to open a chest that holds the Sword of Plot Advancement +2. They could add Ryu from Street Fighter and have him throw hadukens at absolute virtue to beat him. They could have a fight with Altana and you use the master sword with the triforce of courage to summon the monster from the black lagoon to raise your power level over 9000 to be able to win.

The only thing I know for sure is a community rep posted in this thread to say they're not planning to add the new jobs to the relic weapons. That, of course, doesn't prevent them from doing something else if they so wish. That "something else" is about as bout as likely to be my idea as it is anyone elses.

Oh ok, so you can say what SE can and can't do but anyone else can't Gotcha.

[Alhanelem]

Oh ok, so you can say what SE can and can't do but anyone else can't Gotcha.No,, you don't gotcha. What did I even say about anyone else in that post except for this:


is about as bout as likely to be my idea as it is anyone elses.Means think up whatever the hell you want. SE is about as likely to implement it as anything I can think up.

Man, people just can't read today. I'm not dictating what SE can or can't do. I could post the badger badger mushroom mushroom song and somehow you'd interpret it to mean that I think all people who have armor that is colored blue should be banned from the game.

You said it yourself. SE can do whatever they want. Who is disputing this? Not me.

[Byrth]

I'd be much more excited about the possibility of DNC on Mandau if the Attack+35 worked offhand. It may still be a very competitive option without that, but Attack+35 would really make it clearly the best. I'd probably get one.

[Aarahs]

I've heard thfs swear by main twashtar, offhand mandau as incredible, but I haven't personally experienced it.

[Insaniac]

Those THFs may not have noticed that Mandau is nothing more than Delay/Damage when you equip it offhand.

[Atomic_Skull]

Those THFs may not have noticed that Mandau is nothing more than Delay/Damage when you equip it offhand.

Yes but it's the highest Delay/DMG dagger in the game and that alone makes it the best offhand weapon you can equip opposite Twastar even without the +35 attack. Although it can be argued that Mandau/Twastar is better than Twastar/Mandau due to Twastar actually granting it's +15 DEX offhand.

[Insaniac]

That was kind of my point but I'm pretty sure there are quite a few free daggers that produce similar or better results in the off hand. Admittedly, I have never run the numbers because the thought of making a Twashtar has never even crossed my mind.

[Juri_Licious]

Seriously, this isn't a topic about the imbalance associated with DNC updates compared to what THFs have gotten, so why are you still here arguing? It's very obvious your only motive in feeling the way you do is based merely on you feeling scorned by the DNC updates and what you feel it has done to THF, but do I really have to repeat that this topic has other jobs in the mix that need to be factored in here? Your last argument where you attempted to blur the clear line here with "armor arguments" was your weakest attempt yet at creating a whole lot of something out of nothing.

The topic is simple one. There are three classes of end game 'top tier' weapons. Five of the game's jobs are limited to only two of them. We're requesting SE fix that. The End. Now please, again, respectfully take this "DNC vs THF updates" topic somewhere else.

THANK YOU, jesus. It's like if DNC didn't use daggers that person wouldn't have even been in this thread.

[Suirieko]

Seriously, this isn't a topic about the imbalance associated with DNC updates compared to what THFs have gotten, so why are you still here arguing? It's very obvious your only motive in feeling the way you do is based merely on you feeling scorned by the DNC updates and what you feel it has done to THF, but do I really have to repeat that this topic has other jobs in the mix that need to be factored in here? Your last argument where you attempted to blur the clear line here with "armor arguments" was your weakest attempt yet at creating a whole lot of something out of nothing.

The topic is simple one. There are three classes of end game 'top tier' weapons. Five of the game's jobs are limited to only two of them. We're requesting SE fix that. The End. Now please, again, respectfully take this "DNC vs THF updates" topic somewhere else.

This. It shouldn't even be a major issue because only a minority of players have Mandau and will have Mandau. Even then, considering that one of the two 'top tier' (The Mythic Weapons) is virtually impossible to obtain with no clear sign of changing this in the next 6 months, and then considering how easy it is to obtain the empyrean weapon, I still believe that this needs to be changed.

And no, adding 5 new relic weapons will not fix it. It is a pointless fix when the current weapon type already exists.

[hiko]

So. What. That's like saying it's unfair for blue mage to use Homam because it didn't exist when Homam came out. That is like saying it's unfair for corsair to even wield Blood/Crimson Cuisses (aka W.Legs)

Edit: let me tell you that W.legs is NOt an easy piece of gear to obtain due to its rarity.

yes it's unfair that blu can equip homam because he can also equip nashira and W abju, corcan equip W abju set and pup can't equip any

[FrankReynolds]

yes it's unfair that blu can equip homam because he can also equip nashira and W abju, corcan equip W abju set and pup can't equip any

Not the same argument

[hiko]

Not the same argument

but same argument that blu cor pup dnc sch dont have acces to relic

[Greatguardian]

I guess I should throw away my Verethragna before I level PUP so that I won't have an unfair advantage by dinging into the weapon.

Oh, wait. That would be retarded.

I think we're done here.

[Arcon]

I guess I should throw away my Verethragna before I level PUP so that I won't have an unfair advantage by dinging into the weapon.

While I don't support his argument at all, the difference here is that when you decided to get a Verethragna, you already knew it would have been useable on PUP. It's simply a matter of opinion. SE violated that principle on several occasions (Nashira/Homam gear was mentioned), the only question is where to draw the line, and in my opinion there is no line. This should not be an excuse not to add the jobs.

[Tesahade]

I guess I should throw away my Verethragna before I level PUP so that I won't have an unfair advantage by dinging into the weapon.



While I don't support his argument at all, the difference here is that when you decided to get a Verethragna, you already knew it would have been useable on PUP.

But in the event that a new h2h job were added then, from Alhanelem stand point, yes.

of course that would leave you with only access to a mythic weapon no relic or empy; as well as, from Alhanelem stand point, you, as a new h2h job, should have no access to preexisting h2h ToM weapons. the job did no exist when the weapons were conceived therefore you having them could destroy the universe. (This is purely for stating a point so don't get hung up on the mentioning of the fictional new h2h job)

[Greatguardian]

While I don't support his argument at all, the difference here is that when you decided to get a Verethragna, you already knew it would have been useable on PUP. It's simply a matter of opinion. SE violated that principle on several occasions (Nashira/Homam gear was mentioned), the only question is where to draw the line, and in my opinion there is no line. This should not be an excuse not to add the jobs.

Oh, okay.

I only have MNK unlocked. I want a 50% refund on the man-hours it took to get my Verethragna.

I understand where you're trying to come from, but I feel like this tripe can go both ways. If it is my responsibility to create a new Ultimate weapon for each job to keep them at a 1:1 ratio, then it should follow that I should get a refund on my efforts when using a 2-job weapon on 1 job. Obviously this is ridiculous, but so is the notion that jobs can't be added to relics because "people need to work more".

In the end, who gives a crap if they increase the functional value of some relics by adding jobs to them? The only one worth half a shit in this context is Mandau, and even then who really cares? Boo hoo, Dancer can do things that Thief can do? Corsair can do things that Ranger can do, too. That line of reasoning is no less petty than the DRK conniption fit that was had when it was announced that Automatons would get Dread Spikes.

Arguing over this bullshit is like arguing over whether or not Koga Tekko should get their nighttime restriction removed. It's a random, convenient buff that doesn't really do anything at all aside from save 1 inventory space. Key word: Convenience. Who gets hurt when Ninjas can wear Koga Tekko during the day? No one. Who gets hurt when BLU can wear Excal? No one. When COR can wear Annihilator? No one. When DNC can wear Mandau? No one. Really. No one. The damn near insignificant difference between Mandau and Twashtar is not going to make or break Thief's role in the game.

SCH doesn't even have the combat skill to wield the most useless, pathetic Relic in the game worth a damn so no one really gives a shit if they get Claustrum either.

[Atomic_Skull]

The damn near insignificant difference between Mandau and Twashtar is not going to make or break Thief's role in the game.


It's not about which is better it's about SE buffing DNC to ridiculous levels by giving them things THFs have been asking for for years while letting THF languish, then taking things from THF and giving them to dancer in a better form on top of that.

And that is why career THF's rage at the idea of giving Mandau, the highest symbol of a THF's dedication to the job, to DNC.

You know how fans of real horror films hate Twilight? That's how career THF's feel about DNC.

[Kimble]

What exactly did they give to dnc that thf have been asking for?

[Zagen]

You know how fans of real horror films hate Twilight? That's how career THF's feel about DNC.
I'm assuming you're implying Twilight saga/series is supposed to be horror, if you are then you're the first person I've ever seen make that connection. If you aren't implying that then why single out horror film lovers?

[cidbahamut]

It's not about which is better it's about SE buffing DNC to ridiculous levels by giving them things THFs have been asking for for years while letting THF languish, then taking things from THF and giving them to dancer in a better form on top of that.

And that is why career THF's rage at the idea of giving Mandau, the highest symbol of a THF's dedication to the job, to DNC.

You know how fans of real horror films hate Twilight? That's how career THF's feel about DNC.

That's a terrible analogy and the complaint you outline is one of job design, not one of gear availability. Get over it and focus your vindictiveness more constructively.

[Arcon]

What exactly did they give to dnc that thf have been asking for?

Forced critical hit (Sneak Attack), forced triple attack (Assassin's Charge), Subtle Blow bonus, Accuracy Bonus, high Evasion Bonus, higher tiers of Dual Wield, which allows DNC subs other than NIN to DD, while THF still has to use it for nothing else but increasing a trait they already have themselves. I probably missed something.

Edit:

That's a terrible analogy and the complaint you outline is one of job design, not one of gear availability. Get over it and focus your vindictiveness more constructively.

He didn't complain, he just explained why THFs feel as they do, and he's right. And he's also right about why THF feel that way about Mandau, because it's one of the extremely few edges THF has over DNC. Not that it changes anything about the job design, but that's how it is.

[Kimble]

Forced critical hit (Sneak Attack), forced triple attack (Assassin's Charge), Subtle Blow bonus, Accuracy Bonus, high Evasion Bonus, higher tiers of Dual Wield, which allows DNC subs other than NIN to DD, while THF still has to use it for nothing else but increasing a trait they already have themselves. I probably missed something.

So, you mean they gave things to DNC that THF already had, not, they give things to DNC that THFs have been asking for.

THF has higher Evasion then DNC still. DNCs TA is nothing to really talk about and a THF can use SA more then a DNC can. (Granted DNC can do it from the front, THF can as well with Bully)

[Arcon]

So, you mean they gave things to DNC that THF already had, not, they give things to DNC that THFs have been asking for.

No, I meant both. Only Sneak Attack, Triple Attack and Evasion Bonus were things THF already had. The rest was stuff THF wanted (Accuracy Bonus, Subtle Blow, Dual Wield).

[Greatguardian]

It's not about which is better it's about SE buffing DNC to ridiculous levels by giving them things THFs have been asking for for years while letting THF languish, then taking things from THF and giving them to dancer in a better form on top of that.

And that is why career THF's rage at the idea of giving Mandau, the highest symbol of a THF's dedication to the job, to DNC.

You know how fans of real horror films hate Twilight? That's how career THF's feel about DNC.

Oh. So bringing Dancer up from broken, useless pile of crap to respectable DD is bad because it shares traits that already work well on the other dagger-wielding job? That's astounding.

There's a whole can of worms one could open by saying "Don't fix what ain't broke", because we both know that Thief could be in a better place right now, but I don't see anything wrong with SE fixing the most terrible, languishing jobs first. Puppetmaster is in the middle of a huge AI/automaton overhaul, too. Corsair received a massive XI Roll buff, and Miser's/Tacticians/Wildfire gave it a legitimate reason to exist next to Bard. Blue mage received HNM spells, and Scholar is being reworked.

Sure, the bottom of the pyramid may be closer to the top now, but that's only because they've been overhauled while the top of the pyramid hasn't. I have little doubt that Thief will receive the love it needs. Its need simply isn't as great as the famously defunct jobs that the Devs are working with right now.

Inb4 Mellowy and/or no one cares about Summoner people.

[Juri_Licious]

Pretty much the arguments in this thread have been rather lame and irrelevant.

"These jobs wern't out at the time so they must not be able to use the weapon, make new weapons for them!"

This isn't Mythic weapons, multiple jobs can already use the weapons. What game have you ever played when adding new classes these new classes couldn't use a weapon simply cause they were a new class? It didn't work this way in Phantasy Star games another Japanese MMO.

Relic weapons have always been for multiple jobs, so don't act like they're Mythic weapons. We don't need job specific Relics when Mythics handle this.

"THF is absolute dog pile crap, why do I play this game when DNC is my mortal enemy and i'm absolutely jealous, stunned yet appalled that my inferior THF is the worst thing in this game and does 0 damage and doesn't get invited over DNC! Don't give them Mandau, i'll feel like I heal the enemies every time I swing!"

This is absurd on so many levels. You are very biased when it comes to this because you have no objection when it comes to other jobs using Relic weapons but DNC using the Mandau is the most horrible thing in the world.

Once again, THF gets invited to parties all the time. You stated before they don't, if you really think THF doesn't get invited to parties than you must not actually be playing the game at all and you bought your account with the Mandau on it. Maybe that's why you don't put your actual character name on the forums who knows?

Giving DNC the Mandau isn't going to change how THF gets into parties. No one's going to say "SOEGJOSEJG DNC MANDAU! GET DA FAWK OUTTA HERE THIEF!" Just not going to happen. This won't change anything just make players a little more happy and you bitter for no apparent reason.

[Kitkat]

As person who does have Mandau, but isn't really an avid user of Dnc I can't see how this is overly broken. Does it seem unfair? Only about as unfair as Dnc using Twashtar at this point.

It's a great Evisceration weapon and the +att is welcomed in most cases, but the only reason to offhand it is the obvious Dmg/Delay and only if you have a better mainhand. This comes down to situational use however if you have both relic and emp daggers. Ideal situation Twashtar is better main, unideal mandau is admittedly better since you'll still get 3x dmg proc without needing the ws and it is better for evis main-hand.

I wouldn't mind seeing other jobs added to pre-existing weapons also, but I can see where people that have been latched to the job that relic was originally built for have a betrayed sense of injustice being done to them. Then again I look at some of the pre-existing jobs that can use side relic weapons and I wonder just what is so wrong about letting other jobs that have similar rated weapon skill ranks be able to also use the weapon (aka brd and rdm are on mandau, rdm is on excalibur, war is on gsword yet have lower than A- rank). Personally, I'd rather see an update that made using it offhand still retained at least the +att or +acc of relic at the very least....but in the case of Excalibur I can see why additional effects in offhand would still be a no-go.

[Arcon]

I feel stupid responding, but I feel I have to do it to save an actually useful thread from being locked. This is a non-issue. I wish people would stop bringing it up.


Now please, again, respectfully take this "DNC vs THF updates" topic somewhere else.

Only one person complained about DNC getting Mandau, once, and it was over ten pages ago. No one else and not even that person has argued about "DNC vs. THF". Your statement is completely unjustified. There was no "DNC vs THF" arguing in here (especially not in the quoted post), but this statement, ironically, spawned it all. Now I feel like I should comment too, just to make some things clear. Please note that despite my stance on this issue, I do feel strongly that DNC should be added to Mandau, just like I believe all new jobs should be added to their respective main weapons.


I have little doubt that Thief will receive the love it needs.

I kinda hate arguing about this further, since I agree with you. It's only that this statement, I just know, will upset many THFs. Because the last good thing THF has gotten since Sneak Attack was Bully, which, if you look at it, is a very minor damage boost when soloing only. Yet when they got it (in its current form) THFs were ecstatic, because it was the only kind of loving they got in the better part of a decade. So it'll take quite a leap of faith for THFs to believe that the job will receive the love it needs, because they've been shown the opposite for years, despite their constant begging.

THF has many completely objective shortcomings compared to DNC, and the only reason it gets invited to stuff is because it's still a somewhat decent evasion tank and of course for TH. The last part, however, was again a slap in THF's face because SE is giving TH abilities away to other jobs. RNG and BST have both the ability to apply TH3 on a mob (RNG can even use the augmented Tarutaru Sash, which THF can't), and to make matters worse yet, player testing has shown that TH has extremely diminishing returns after TH2. That's why you'll see so many BST soloing their relics in a few months and that's why people are bring a /THF mule instead of a THF if they can't afford to spare the slot in their party (I can't count how many WHM/THFs mule I've seen in Abyssea, Dynamis, sea and sky). And as a final bitch slap, TH is almost completely useless in Voidwatch, the only place with current content.

Having said that, yes, THF does still get invited, even without Mandau. But that's usually due to the following reasons: a) they can spare a spot and like the additional TH, no matter how little it does, b) they don't know how little it actually does (many fall into this category, people still think TH10 actually does something over TH7), c) the player doesn't have any other viable jobs, or d) they're trying an evasion tank strategy. Since c) isn't really an argument for THF, and a) and b) involve a broken or misunderstood game mechanic and don't require a THF so much as its trait, d) is the only thing THF is actually useful for, and the number of mobs that are evasion tanked is getting smaller and smaller.

I hate even having to say that, because it's been said over and over again by the entire THF community, and it doesn't belong in here either, but these are just the facts and dispute some claims other people have made recently. As I said before, there was no THF vs. DNC arguing initially, people like Briarb19 and Juri_Licious exaggerated some statements and it escalated from there. Now everyone is talking against no one. There is literally no issue here. Just let it drop and go back on topic.

[Byrth]

Technically, Bully is the last substantial buff THF has gotten since Assassin. Assassin was a pretty huge upgrade.

[Juri_Licious]

people like Briarb19 and Juri_Licious exaggerated some statements and it escalated from there.
What? You know how long it took me to get to a point where I wrote what I just said a few hours ago? Atomic_Skull was the one who kept going on and on about how they should not put Mandau on DNC. Try reading the thread again.

[Arcon]

Technically, Bully is the last substantial buff THF has gotten since Assassin. Assassin was a pretty huge upgrade.

For THF standards, maybe, which is sad to say in itself. But one forced triple attack every 5min isn't very noticeable in the long run, especially considering a base Triple Attack rate of almost 20%, meaning every fifth AC on average doesn't even do anything. And on a multihit WS, it does nowhere near triple damage, especially if you consider Double Attack can kick in sometimes too, in which case the increase would be even less. So in short, you have a 30~50% damage increase on every 15~20 WS, depending on your support. Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining, I generally rarely am, but it's nowhere near as useful as Sneak Attack, which is why I didn't compare it to that.

[Byrth]

Unless I'm confusing it with something else, I think Assassin (http://bg-wiki.net/bg/Assassin) was actually added after the level cap was raised to 75. I think it came before Tier 2 merits though, so it does depend how much you care about Assassin's Charge.

[Arcon]

Unless I'm confusing it with something else, I think Assassin (http://bg-wiki.net/bg/Assassin) was actually added after the level cap was raised to 75. I think it came before Tier 2 merits though, so it does depend how much you care about Assassin's Charge.

Oh my bad... I can't speak to that, I'm afraid, it was added before I started, I assumed it was there all along. Still, that's quite a long time ago then.

[Neisan_Quetz]

EDIT: already answered

[Suirieko]

While I don't support his argument at all, the difference here is that when you decided to get a Verethragna, you already knew it would have been useable on PUP. It's simply a matter of opinion. SE violated that principle on several occasions (Nashira/Homam gear was mentioned), the only question is where to draw the line, and in my opinion there is no line. This should not be an excuse not to add the jobs.

It shouldn't even be a problem to begin with, there shouldn't even be a line to begin with. To Date. Dancer and Scholar, for the most part, can't even touch most of the major gears because they are the latest two jobs. SE, originally said that "they're planning for good gears for Dancers and Scholars." There was hardly anything outside of AF, Relic set, and Empyrean armor set (and for the most part, are still good stuff, I won't deny this). Only Abyssea gears did this actually change significantly. IE: Gears like movement speed for DNC and Loki's body, etc.

They can't equip any of the Abjuration set. They can't equip any of the salvage set. They can't equip any of the homam/nashira set. It's not a huge deal now because most of the said gears have already been replaced for the most part, but then what happens when those set gets upgraded, and they're actually useful. Oops. Dancer and Scholar gets screwed again.

There's nothing unfair about them getting those set just because those jobs came out after the said gear sets were released. This is the same with relic. They should've been added to relics long time ago, if you ask me, and they need to fix this.

There are no "freebies" or "free hand outs" or anything unfair, just because some joe blow has mandau for his THF and dinged into Dancer and can use Mandau. I still fail to see how this is unfair. He already worked hard for the weapon, why should he have to work more just so he can use it on Dancer? This is the same for all five of the new jobs.

The argument is: All 20 jobs have access to Mythics, all 20 jobs have access to Empyrean. Why can't all 20 jobs have access to relics. (without making new relic weapons just because those 5 jobs are "too new" for relics.)


Only one person complained about DNC getting Mandau, once, and it was over ten pages ago. No one else and not even that person has argued about "DNC vs. THF". Your statement is completely unjustified. There was no "DNC vs THF" arguing in here (especially not in the quoted post), but this statement, ironically, spawned it all. Now I feel like I should comment too, just to make some things clear. Please note that despite my stance on this issue, I do feel strongly that DNC should be added to Mandau, just like I believe all new jobs should be added to their respective main weapons.Well this isn't the first thread and whenever this thread gets around, there's always an argument that Dancers have "stolen enough" from THF, and that DNC having Mandau would somehow "kill THF". All in all it's really a stupid argument, considering that THF and DNC are still a different beast with or without Mandau.


Unless I'm confusing it with something else, I think Assassin (http://bg-wiki.net/bg/Assassin) was actually added after the level cap was raised to 75. I think it came before Tier 2 merits though, so it does depend how much you care about Assassin's Charge.Pretty sure Assassin came out in 2005, and made Trick attack as strong as Sneak Attack. To be honest, for the long time, I was content with how THF was and felt that there wasn't any necessary changes. Accomplice and Collaboration makes it even easier to manage hate, and allows mages to have better chance to survive due to hate generation.

Also, let's not forget that SE did boosted the higher end dagger base damage in the past. (I think it was 2006 when the did this?)

The only thing that did bug me was the fact that they were giving Treasure Hunters abilities to other classes, but it's really kind of moot because even with the diminishing return, people will always go to THF for stronger TH boost as opposed to RNG, or subjob with /THF.




As I said before, there was no THF vs. DNC arguing initially, people like Briarb19 and Juri_Licious exaggerated some statements and it escalated from there. Now everyone is talking against no one. There is literally no issue here. Just let it drop and go back on topic.Correct. It's not an issue because A) People having Mandau will always be in a minority, because it is a difficult weapon to get. B) IT shouldn't even matter because THF and DNC are both primary dagger users, and therefore, should have no problem with using Mandau. Hell it makes more sense to me for THF and DNC to use Mandau than BRD and RDM.

[Atomic_Skull]

Because the last good thing THF has gotten since Sneak Attack was Bully, which, if you look at it, is a very minor damage boost when soloing only. Yet when they got it (in its current form) THFs were ecstatic, because it was the only kind of loving they got in the better part of a decade

And they had to get out the pitchforks and burning torches just to get that much. In it's original form Bully increased treasure hunter proc rate.


So it'll take quite a leap of faith for THFs to believe that the job will receive the love it needs, because they've been shown the opposite for years, despite their constant begging.

THF is the butt monkey of FFXI, they are basically Stink (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFccZujaPJw) from the Korgoth of Barbaria pilot.

[Suirieko]

And they had to get out the pitchforks and burning torches just to get that much. In it's original form Bully increased treasure hunter proc rate.

Bully, in its original form, only caused mobs to get intimidated, and it didn't prove to be useful. Treasure hunter was eventually added, but even then it wasn't enough.

[Byrth]

If anyone was wondering still, Assassin's Charge definitely came after Assassin:
Assassin - http://www.playonline.com/updateus/041209we8yu0.html
Assassin's Charge - http://www.playonline.com/pcd/update/ff11us/20060725vNusN1/detail.html

Also, the description given to Assassin seems to be incorrect.

[Arcon]

Also, the description given to Assassin seems to be incorrect.

Made me chuckle. Thanks for clearing that up though.

[Aana]

It's not about which is better it's about SE buffing DNC to ridiculous levels by giving them things THFs have been asking for for years while letting THF languish, then taking things from THF and giving them to dancer in a better form on top of that.

And that is why career THF's rage at the idea of giving Mandau, the highest symbol of a THF's dedication to the job, to DNC.

You know how fans of real horror films hate Twilight? That's how career THF's feel about DNC.
Thanks for speaking for me. Thf main. Doesnt care if dnc is on mandau.

Mandau is not some flawless symbol of thfdom. Players turned a digital item into a symbol. Mandau is not a symbol of thf. It is a symbol of the perfection of dagger. Just like gugnir is not the perfection of drg, but the perfection of polearm.

Relic weapons are designed as the pinnacle of the WEAPON CLASS. There is 1 for each weapon class, and it is (in lore anyway) the strongest weapon of that classification. Creating new 'relic weapons' does not compute. Creating a NEW relic dagger spits in the face of Mandau more than adding a new job to it because a parallel "best dagger" destroys the entire concept (lore wise) of the BEST DAGGER. There can be only one.

Jobs that focus on a specific weapon class should be able to access the pinnical of that class. If a damn BARD can use the best dagger in the game, any argument taht thf is the superior dagger class to dnc is moot because both are far superior to rdm and brd in dagger proficiency. If a rdm can manage to wield excal, im sure a blu is up to the task. If a Sam can wield the bow, im certain a cor can handle the gun properly. This is not about job distinction. Its bout job inclusion.

'Expanding' relics to have parallel copies of a weapon undermines the concept of a 'best in class' weapon in its entirety. So long as bard and Rdm can wield a mandau and sam can wield yoichi and rdm can wield excal, then dnc/blu/cor have more than competent and skilled enough to wield this calibur of weapons.

This is not job vs job. This is allowing jobs to access the static 'best in class' style weapons that relics are for the wepaons in which said jobs are exceptionally proficient in. New relics are not the solution because then they wouldnt be relics. There is 1 for every weapon class. Every weapon class already exists, therefore the weapons require retrofit instead of forging entirely new ones. It makes more sense lore wise, AND it is the occams solution. Its both the most logical (in vanadiel) and the most practical (on earth) to implement.
___________________________________________________
Edit:
Also, i fail to see how Dnc bein on mandau is the same as horror buffs watching some teen girl book in movie form. Just because a movie has Vamps and Werewolves doesnt make it horror and thus horror fans shouldnt feel threatened by it. Wait a second....maybe it does make sense.

Just because a movie Job Class has Vamps and Werewolves uses daggers and equips mandau doesnt make it horror Thf and thus horror fans Thfs shouldnt feel threatened by it.

Werewolves and Vampires does not a horror film make. Using daggers and equiping mandau does not a thf make. Dnc is still just some fluffy teen girl that likes twilight and Thf is the hardcore horror genre. So they both have share vamps and were's. They arent anything near the same thing. Equiping a mandau makes dnc no more a thf than team edward being a vampire fan club makes twilight a horror film.
Nevermind i take it back, that is a perfect analogy. Thanks.

[Suirieko]

Thanks for speaking for me. Thf main. Doesnt care if dnc is on mandau.

Mandau is not some flawless symbol of thfdom. Players turned a digital item into a symbol. Mandau is not a symbol of thf. It is a symbol of the perfection of dagger. Just like gugnir is not the perfection of drg, but the perfection of polearm.

Relic weapons are designed as the pinnacle of the WEAPON CLASS. There is 1 for each weapon class, and it is (in lore anyway) the strongest weapon of that classification. Creating new 'relic weapons' does not compute. Creating a NEW relic dagger spits in the face of Mandau more than adding a new job to it because a parallel "best dagger" destroys the entire concept (lore wise) of the BEST DAGGER. There can be only one.

Jobs that focus on a specific weapon class should be able to access the pinnical of that class. If a damn BARD can use the best dagger in the game, any argument taht thf is the superior dagger class to dnc is moot because both are far superior to rdm and brd in dagger proficiency. If a rdm can manage to wield excal, im sure a blu is up to the task. If a Sam can wield the bow, im certain a cor can handle the gun properly. This is not about job distinction. Its bout job inclusion.

'Expanding' relics to have parallel copies of a weapon undermines the concept of a 'best in class' weapon in its entirety. So long as bard and Rdm can wield a mandau and sam can wield yoichi and rdm can wield excal, then dnc/blu/cor have more than competent and skilled enough to wield this calibur of weapons.

This is not job vs job. This is allowing jobs to access the static 'best in class' style weapons that relics are for the wepaons in which said jobs are exceptionally proficient in. New relics are not the solution because then they wouldnt be relics. There is 1 for every weapon class. Every weapon class already exists, therefore the weapons require retrofit instead of forging entirely new ones. It makes more sense lore wise, AND it is the occams solution. Its both the most logical (in vanadiel) and the most practical (on earth) to implement.
___________________________________________________
Edit:
Also, i fail to see how Dnc bein on mandau is the same as horror buffs watching some teen girl book in movie form. Just because a movie has Vamps and Werewolves doesnt make it horror and thus horror fans shouldnt feel threatened by it. Wait a second....maybe it does make sense.

Just because a movie Job Class has Vamps and Werewolves uses daggers and equips mandau doesnt make it horror Thf and thus horror fans Thfs shouldnt feel threatened by it.

Werewolves and Vampires does not a horror film make. Using daggers and equiping mandau does not a thf make. Dnc is still just some fluffy teen girl that likes twilight and Thf is the hardcore horror genre. So they both have share vamps and were's. They arent anything near the same thing. Equiping a mandau makes dnc no more a thf than team edward being a vampire fan club makes twilight a horror film.
Nevermind i take it back, that is a perfect analogy. Thanks.

http://vibeus.wippiespace.com/pictures/gifs/applaud.gif

If I could 'like' your post 100 more times, I would. I agree with your post 100%.

See it shouldn't bother THF that DNC gets the weapon. DNC uses dagger primarily, so they have the right to use Mandau as much as THF does.

Also, making a different "weapon types" just so new jobs can equip it, completely goes against the lore. Relics should be the best of the best, and that is exactly the reason why all 20 of the jobs should be able to use the relic weapons.

[Byrth]

Plus, it'd be awesome to use Mandau offhand on Dancer. When I plug it all in to Motenten's spreadsheet, Mandau comes out about 5-6% ahead (total DPS) of a STR Kila +2 outside Abyssea fighting Fodder mobs as an offhand due to its Attack.

[Helel]

Are people seriously forgetting that RDM is on the dagger as well as BRD? Why is this such a big deal when the dagger can already be used by multiple jobs...? Granted DNC uses dagger more so than BRD or RDM, mandau is still an excellent relic for those jobs, and definitely the best weapon if it's available.

Calm down?

[Zagen]

Are people seriously forgetting that RDM is on the dagger as well as BRD? Why is this such a big deal when the dagger can already be used by multiple jobs...? Granted DNC uses dagger more so than BRD or RDM, mandau is still an excellent relic for those jobs, and definitely the best weapon if it's available.

Calm down?
They're all up in a roar about it because unlike RDM or BRD, DNC would use the dagger well. They're crying because outside of TH DNC has taken a lot of the THF shine away with similar abilities, though really THF is only used for TH by most groups so I don't see why they're upset over the idea of DNC being on Mandau its not like either job is wanted outside of dagger procs or TH in THF's case.

[Alhanelem]

Creating new 'relic weapons' does not compute.It computes perfectly, it just very slightly tampers with some existing lore, which can be explained away with more lore. This isn't a good argument against such an idea.


Why is this such a big deal when the dagger can already be used by multiple jobs...?It's not useable by every job that can equip a dagger, even before new jobs came out. It was useable by specifically designated jobs out of those that can wield a dagger. PLD is not on the relic club, even though PLD technically gets a higher degree of mastery with that weapon type than WHM. They consciously decided on a select few jobs (or one in some cases) to get each weapon- it was an arbitrary decision.

Dunno why I posted this since my head is just going to get torn off by some valiant defender, but whatever. Not going to say anything else for a while at least.

[Raksha]

Not going to say anything else for a while at least.

And then, all of a sudden, 25 pages of waaaaaaaaaa was totally worth it.