Add New Jobs to Relic Weapons - Past Due for an Explanation

[Neisan_Quetz]

War is on Ragnarok (Prd too), but not Guttler, even though it has higher Axe skill. Samurai is on Yoichi, but has no native Archery Weaponskills.

Whatever they used to decide what job gets what relic didn't make sense the first time.

Actually, Prd having A club never made sense either.

And if the update goes live it looks like Mandau just became lolmeleerdm's best offhand.

[Suirieko]

It computes perfectly, it just very slightly tampers with some existing lore, which can be explained away with more lore. This isn't a good argument against such an idea.No, it does not computes perfectly. Mandau is supposed to be as the "legendary dagger weapon", period, so therefore, it is supposed to be as the best dagger of all. Same with all the other relic. There can only be one relic weapon for each weapon type, Having another relic dagger is just stupid and goes against the lore.


It's not useable by every job that can equip a dagger, even before new jobs came out. It was useable by specifically designated jobs out of those that can wield a dagger. PLD is not on the relic club, even though PLD technically gets a higher degree of mastery with that weapon type than WHM. They consciously decided on a select few jobs (or one in some cases) to get each weapon- it was an arbitrary decision.

Dunno why I posted this since my head is just going to get torn off by some valiant defender, but whatever. Not going to say anything else for a while at least.Yes, Paladin have a higher degree of weapon mastery with club than White mages, but do they use the club primarily? No, they use sword primarily so therefore, it makes sense for them to have Excalibur. Monk and Warrior have higher skill for Staff than Black mage and summoner. Do they get the relic staff? No. Monk uses H2H Primarily and WAR, Great Axe, primarily.

Dancer uses Dagger primarily, therefore, they should get access to Mandau. Blue Mage uses Sword primarily, therefore, they should use Excalibur. Corsair uses guns primarily, therefore, they should get Annihilator. Puppetmaster uses H2H primarily, so therefore, they get Spharai.

This isn't about Giving jobs access to weapon just because they can use the weapon type. This is about giving access to relics because they don't HAVE the access, especially when they can use it primarily.

[Atomic_Skull]

Yes, Paladin have a higher degree of weapon mastery with club than White mages, but do they use the club primarily? No, they use sword primarily so therefore, it makes sense for them to have Excalibur.


Shouldn't RDM only have Excalibur in that case?

[Greatguardian]

People need to get off this "PLD has A club" business. They can't use hammers. Period. Mjollnir is a hammer. Problem: Solved.

[Arcon]

Calm down?


They're all up in a roar about it because unlike RDM or BRD, DNC would use the dagger well.

I only see people like you guys crying about people crying about it. I don't see the people that are actually crying about it. Stop making stuff up.

As I said before, this is largely a matter of opinion. The facts can be summed up like this:
- There is only one weapon for each class (supposedly the best of its class)
- Every job is on at least one relic weapon (pre ToAU)
- Being able to wield a weapon depends on the weapon type as well

The last point simply means what Greatguardian already said. While PLD have high Club skill, they can't use hammers, which is what Mjollnir is. Same with WAR, who can't use tabar-type axes and lance-type polearms, which is what Guttler and Gungnir are. Dark Knights can't use most bhuj-type great axes (they can use lower level ones, but not higher level ones... not quite sure why, but you can still see the separation), which is what Bravura is, and so on.

Mandau, for example, is a knife. With some notable exceptions (Chicken Knife, Thief's Knife, Corsair's Knife, etc.), DNC has always been able to wield knives (only dagger-types DNC can't use are baselard and kris daggers), which is why I believe it would make sense to add them to that.

All of those three facts would hint at allowing new jobs to join existing weapons. However, there is no rule that can't be (or hasn't been) broken (especially by SE). They go against their own pattern quite frequently and use some additional lore to make up for it. They could just as well do it for this, whether it makes sense or not. In the end, it is what it is, personal preference. I think having new relics for new jobs would suck, especially since my OCD doesn't want the first fact I mentioned to be broken (I hate breaking patterns). That's all anyone can argue in here.

[Zagen]

I only see people like you guys crying about people crying about it. I don't see the people that are actually crying about it. Stop making stuff up.
Eh? These 2 posts pretty much started the whole THF vs. DNC thing in the first few pages and probably further into the thread there's more I don't remember but I didn't bother going past page 6.

SE has given DNC too much of THF's stuff already. No more please.

THF is supposed to be the master of daggers but SE has basically made DNC into "THF only better!" I don't want to see one of the few things remaining that is THF's given over to DNC.

And no, RDM and BRD don't count.

Granted it seemed as though Atomic_Skull Vs. everyone else for the most part. Might have had more people on his/her side but again didn't care to go through anymore pages to prove it wasn't "made up"

[Suirieko]

Shouldn't RDM only have Excalibur in that case?

Um. No? I was responding to Alhanelem's post here:


PLD is not on the relic club, even though PLD technically gets a higher degree of mastery with that weapon type than WHM.

And I was basically arguing how that is a silly arguement because it doesn't matter what the skill level is for certain weapon type. Monk have higher skill in Staff than other mages, but do you see them having access to Claustrum? No. Paladin is a primary sword user, so it makes sense for them to have Excalibur. Red Mage uses swords primarily so they have access to Excalibur. Blue Mage uses sword primarily, so therefore, they SHOULD have access to Excalibur. That is the argument here.


People need to get off this "PLD has A club" business. They can't use hammers. Period. Mjollnir is a hammer. Problem: Solved.

I really don't think anyone would care about Paladin and club. It was a silly argument that Alhanelem made to try to argue why the five new jobs shouldn't have access to the relic weapons. As I said again, this isn't about giving relic to jobs just because they can use the weapon. This is about giving relic weapons to jobs (that don't even have access to relic weapons) that PRIMARILY uses the said weapon type. There's a different. IE: No one is saying Ninja should be able to use Mandau just because they can use dagger.

[Atomic_Skull]

People need to get off this "PLD has A club" business. They can't use hammers. Period. Mjollnir is a hammer. Problem: Solved.

They can't?

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Brass_Jadagna_%2B1

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Brise-os_%2B1

The shape and the damage rating compared to other clubs at their level clearly place these in the "hammer" class. The argument that DNC should get Mandau because they can already use a few dagger type weapons can also be used to argue that PLD should have Mjollnir for the same reason.

[Zagen]

They can't?

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Brass_Jadagna_%2B1

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Brise-os_%2B1

The shape and the damage rating compared to other clubs at their level clearly place these in the "hammer" class. The argument that DNC should get Mandau because they can already use a few dagger type weapons can also be used to argue that PLD should have Mjollnir for the same reason.

You seem to have forgotten the "Mace" class of clubs. Just saying, tbh I don't care if PLD was added to Club Relic or not.

[Atomic_Skull]

You seem to have forgotten the "Mace" class of clubs.

Except that those are clearly hammers and not maces.

[Neisan_Quetz]

The Jadagna is a medieval club made of ironwood sometimes fitted with a stone or metal spike at the head.

[Atomic_Skull]

The Jadagna is a medieval club made of ironwood sometimes fitted with a stone or metal spike at the head.

That's nice but this is still clearly a hammer.

http://ff11db.sakura.ne.jp/database/graphi/buki/Brass%20Jadagna.jpg

[Arcon]

Who cares (http://dictionary.babylon.com/jadagna/)? So there's one exception to the rule (they look identical, maybe a new class altogether). They look nothing like hammers imo. Still, PLD can't use the vast majority of hammers, with (maybe) one exception.

[Atomic_Skull]

They look nothing like hammers imo.

It looks like an ornate hammer with a round head to me.


PLD can't use the vast majority of hammers, with (maybe) one exception.

DNC can't use any of the "parrying knife" class of daggers with one exception, and only that because it's a Magian weapon.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Except that those are clearly hammers and not maces.You're misconstruing the shape, it is not a hammer.

[Greatguardian]

It's Jadagna-class, not Maul-class (aka, Hammers).

[Tsukino_Kaji]

On that note, they should add great mauls and war hammers. They will be 2 handed weapons, but still be under the club catagory.

[Neisan_Quetz]

That's nice but this is still clearly a hammer.

http://ff11db.sakura.ne.jp/database/graphi/buki/Brass%20Jadagna.jpg

Looks like a club with a stone fixed at the head to me. Ohwait that's exactly what I said.

[FrankReynolds]

Looks like a club with a stone fixed at the head to me. Ohwait that's exactly what I said.

Isn't that what a hammer is?

[Greatguardian]

This is like arguing over whether or not Adargas should be classified as Cesti =/.

For Reference:

http://wiki.ffo.jp/img/6470/Adargas.jpg

There really are weapon classes that may only have one or two examples in the entire game. Classifying Jadagnas as Mauls/Hammers is just bad form. They're Jadagnas, like Adargas are Adargas.

[Byrth]

DNC can't use any of the "parrying knife" class of daggers with one exception, and only that because it's a Magian weapon.

Wait, I can't? (http://bg-wiki.com/bg/Parrying_Knife)

[Alhanelem]

You're misconstruing the shape, it is not a hammer.
It's a hammer. Apparently you've never seen a ball-peen hammer. They have round heads.

[Neisan_Quetz]

... You can't be serious. Look at the Jadagna. Look at a Ball-peen hammer. Look back at the Jadagna, then back at the Ball-peen hammer.
Sadly, the Jadagna is not a ball-peen hammer, but you can keep telling yourself that if it helps you sleep at night.

[Alhanelem]

... You can't be serious. Look at the Jadagna. Look at a Ball-peen hammer. Look back at the Jadagna.
Sadly, the Jadagna is not a ball-peen hammer, but you can keep telling yourself that if it helps you sleep at night.

I don't give a rat's behind what the *back* of the hammer looks like. The "back" part of the hammer which you refer to isn't even required for a tool to be called a "hammer." The Jadagna is very similar to a ball peen hammer. Not identical, no. But similar enough that you could place them in a similar category of blunt instruments with round striking surfaces on the end.

And yes, I sleep very well at night, thank you.

[Neisan_Quetz]

The Jadagna is a medieval club and a weapon. The ball-peen hammer is a hammer and a 'metalworking' tool.

Do enjoy your sleep.

[FrankReynolds]

none of the weapons are construction tools. your point is invalid.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Noted and edited.

[Alhanelem]

The ball-peen hammer is a hammer Since when was it not possible to use a "metalworking tool" as a weapon? The pen on my desk right now makes a good stabbing weapon if I want it to be one. Just because different objects were created with different purposes in mind, doesn't mean they can't be used for some other purpose.

The point is, they are similar objects with similar shapes.

[Neisan_Quetz]

All Mauls are clubs (in game category), but not all clubs (in game category) are Mauls.The Jadagna is a club (in game category), and still not a Maul. That's it.

[FrankReynolds]

It looks like a hammer with some decorations on it. Most of the club weapons in the game don't even look like weapons anyways. Who ever heard of someone getting beat down with a wand? I've heard of people casting spells with wands. Ive heard of people getting beat down with "metal Working" tools. I've never heard of anyone getting beat with a wand (maybe it happened in a nerdy S&M club?). None of the game categories are completely flawless. This is a silly argument.

I move that Dancer be put on the Club and Great sword relics. Screw tradition.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I'm sure I could find a paragraph somewhere in Harry potter of someone actually getting hit with a wand.

[Atomic_Skull]

People need to get off this "PLD has A club" business. They can't use hammers. Period. Mjollnir is a hammer. Problem: Solved.

DRG used to be restricted from plate armor and now they are not.

[Neisan_Quetz]

That was clearly because Elvaans and SE hate dragoons more than Eastern Ninjas.

[Suirieko]

The shape and the damage rating compared to other clubs at their level clearly place these in the "hammer" class. The argument that DNC should get Mandau because they can already use a few dagger type weapons can also be used to argue that PLD should have Mjollnir for the same reason.Once again, wrong. I'm not saying that Dancer should use Mandau just because they can use dagger. I'm saying that dancer should use Mandau because they are a primarily a dagger class job.

Paladins already have Excalibur, Aegis, and Ragnarok. They don't need club. Also, to even suggest that Paladin should be able to use Mjollinr, is completely asinine. They don't primarily use clubs, they use swords, and they don't need access to anymore relics than what they already have. Why is this even being suggested in the first place?



DNC can't use any of the "parrying knife" class of daggers with one exception, and only that because it's a Magian weapon.Incorrect. They are indeed able to equip the dagger that has the same shape with that of Parrying Knife, even the the said Parrying Knife as well. Also examples: Heart Snatcher, and Main Gauche off the top of my head.

[Greatguardian]

DRG used to be restricted from plate armor and now they are not.

DNC used to be restricted from Mandau and - ohhh. I see. This only works one way.

[SpankWustler]

I have no idea what is going on in this topic at this point, so I'm just going to post my own picture of a club.
http://img.foodnetwork.com/FOOD/2009/03/26/BI0211-1_Turkey-Club_s4x3_lg.jpg

[Arcon]

This is like arguing over whether or not Adargas should be classified as Cesti =/.

For Reference:

http://wiki.ffo.jp/img/6470/Adargas.jpg

There really are weapon classes that may only have one or two examples in the entire game. Classifying Jadagnas as Mauls/Hammers is just bad form. They're Jadagnas, like Adargas are Adargas.

This post says it all. There is no reading past this required. Sometimes there's just two examples of a weapon type, just the way it is. Jadagnas are just jadagnas.


I have no idea what is going on in this topic at this point, so I'm just going to post my own picture of a club.
http://img.foodnetwork.com/FOOD/2009/03/26/BI0211-1_Turkey-Club_s4x3_lg.jpg

No, actually, this says it all. This picture has more relevance to my life that anything that was said in between these two posts.

[Atomic_Skull]

They don't primarily use clubs, they use swords, and they don't need access to anymore relics than what they already have. Why is this even being suggested in the first place?

That's only because of the players. SE obviously intended PLD to use club and sword equally or they wouldn't have an A rank in both.

[hiko]

That's only because of the players. SE obviously intended PLD to use club and sword equally or they wouldn't have an A rank in both.
no its because of club and ws available

give PLD hexastrike and a good DDclub and you'll see more (no almace/exca) PLDs using clubs

[FrankReynolds]

I have no idea what is going on in this topic at this point, so I'm just going to post my own picture of a club.
http://img.foodnetwork.com/FOOD/2009/03/26/BI0211-1_Turkey-Club_s4x3_lg.jpg

Thats not a club. Its clearly a sandwich. "A sandwich is a food item, typically consisting of two or more slices of bread with one or more fillings between them, or one slice of bread with a topping or toppings, commonly called an open sandwich."

http://www.politecompanycomic.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Club-Sandwich-Plate.jpg

See, clubs are cut into 4 pieces and held together with frilly toothpicks, and that's why Paladins can't eat them. they always choke on the toothpicks. :p No relic club for you mr. paladin.

[Suirieko]

Thats not a club. Its clearly a sandwich. "A sandwich is a food item, typically consisting of two or more slices of bread with one or more fillings between them, or one slice of bread with a topping or toppings, commonly called an open sandwich."

http://www.politecompanycomic.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Club-Sandwich-Plate.jpg

See, clubs are cut into 4 pieces and held together with frilly toothpicks, and that's why Paladins can't eat them. they always choke on the toothpicks. :p No relic club for you mr. paladin.

It looks really delicious.

[Briarb19]

I tried T_T but I shall try again just for you! I'll post an update if I get more info.

Hi Rukkirii,

Would you please provide an update on this? Has the Dev team provided any further details regarding the addition of new jobs to relics? Some of us newer jobs are still itching to be able to use a relic like the rest of the playerbase! :)

Thanks,
Rayna

[Zerich]

I hope you're trolling...

melee rdm's are (sadly) not trolls

[Tavien]

Can't really see why they shouldn't add each job to it's corresponding weapon. Seems weird that ToAU/WotG jobs get relic gear without a weapon to go with it if you ask me?

[Neisan_Quetz]

Can't really see why they shouldn't add each job to it's corresponding weapon. Seems weird that ToAU/WotG jobs get relic gear without a weapon to go with it if you ask me?

Clearly the problem is a balance issue.

[Tavien]

Ah yes, balance. How silly of me XD

[Alerith]

Tanaka is a Libra...he must be.

http://i.imgur.com/QHbLy.jpg

[Dallas]

Since when was it not possible to use a "metalworking tool" as a weapon? The pen on my desk right now makes a good stabbing weapon if I want it to be one.

Your definition of good is questionable. I'll take the scissors.

[Atomic_Skull]

Hi Rukkirii,

Would you please provide an update on this? Has the Dev team provided any further details regarding the addition of new jobs to relics? Some of us newer jobs are still itching to be able to use a relic like the rest of the playerbase! :)

Thanks,
Rayna

You aren't fooling anyone with your necrobump.

[Briarb19]

You aren't fooling anyone with your necrobump.

Last Community Rep said they were going to talk to the Dev again about this. I'm following up on that. By all means, please let the discussion end there. Thanks.