[dev1035] Are PUPs the only loved ones?

[Malamasala]

I was reading about how it seemed like you were fixing everything with PUP in a single update and thought it sounded very wonderful. I could however not avoid noticing how a lot of the changes are stuff that are very closely connected to SMN.

Do you have similar plans for Summoner? (I know you supposedly have surveyed us about ward improvements, but it would be nice to know how much you intend on fixing, seeing as you are fixing everything on PUP)




Like are you going to fix Titan's favor to give damage reduction instead of defense, just how you changed the Armor Plating attachments effects?

Are you going to raise the amount of damage reduction on Nocturnal Shield?

Are you going to increase the priority of sleepga from Shiva since it is 1.5 min (sleepga 2) duration, and yet you can't overwrite sleepga 1 (1 min duration)?

Are you going to split up and improve healing AI for Light Spirit?

Are you going to add new spells to Spirits? (Since apparently it is still only Light Spirit getting new nukes and nothing else)


I'm quite envious at the amount of "fixes" going towards PUP right now. I've always said "fixes" are the only thing SMN needs, and yet all we get is new content. Never do we seem to get adjustments that make our old abilities useful.

Do to wards what you did to attachments, and do to spirits what you did to frames, and I believe you might have rejuvenated SMN into a brand new job.

[Juri_Licious]

Get rid of Ternary Flourish on DNC and replace it with something actually useful while you're at it.

[cidbahamut]

Oh, it's another Mellowy thread complaining about spirits. Nothing to see here folks.

[Wojo]

You gotta be kidding, PUP has been a trophy job since day 1.

[Siviard]

Yep, more Mellowy bellyaching about Spirits.

Nothing to see here, folks. Move along....

[Alhanelem]

Thing is, the automaton really needed a lot of fixing. For most jobs, it's only this one thing is broken or that one thing is broken.

Not that I don't think several other jobs also need a fair bit of lovin', of course.

Spirits ain't one of those things though. They serve a few very useful functions and don't need to be changed. I really couldn't care less that they suck at nuking and doing damage, because that's what the avatars are for.

[Leonlionheart]

How can someone be so in love with SMN spirits?

It boggles my mind.

[Miera]

I really think Automatons needed the love more than Spirits..

[Moink]

A Spirit is nowhere near the level of importance to a SMN as an Automaton is to a PUP... If you were to have made a better complaint such as "When are the avatars getting new Blood Pact Rages?" instead of standing there and crying "I want my Spirits to do more and through out more powerful nukes and be just awwwwwesome" i would've maybe liked this thread...

I need to ask this because now this bothers me... are you really one of those Summoners who stands there with her Spirit out instead of an Avatar draining your MP pool in hopes that your spirit does some wicked spell like Flare II or Firaja or Fire V?

[Byrth]

Before I read this thread, I wouldn't have believe anyone was angry that PUP is finally getting some attention. Turns out I would have been wrong.

Summoner has a purpose and a use right now. PUP has no use. Stop whining.

[Greatguardian]

How can someone be so in love with SMN spirits?

It boggles my mind.

Think of it like the abused/neglected housewife; Always dreaming of what her husband could be someday if he only changed, ignoring how terrible he is now and holding out forever on a change that will never happen.

[SpankWustler]

As I began reading this topic, five minutes younger and more naive than I am at present, it amazed me that Mellowy wasn't talking about Spirits again. Sure, she's complaining about Summoner for the hundred-thousandth time, but it's not like there aren't things to complain about. I thought this might mark a new trend in Mellowy's complaints about Summoner...

A few paragraphs later, the illusion is shattered as Mellowy begins talking about Spirits again. Thanks for reminding us all that the sun is still in the sky and the dead are not yet walking the earth, Mellowy.

[Juri_Licious]

How can someone be so in love with SMN spirits?

It boggles my mind.

You could say that about anyone who is passionate about anything.
Words don't describe everything.

[Mizuharu]

You are seriously complaining about Spirits? Here, let me lay down what use they have.

Buffs (I've often used a LightSpirit right before a fight for the pro/shell if I were solo)
Elemental Siphon
Aggro and need something to get attention (since spirits cast faster than avatars)

That's it. Automatons have been BROKEN for 5 years now. FIVE. YEARS.
-The WHM/RDM frames are FINALLY getting some enhancing spells.
-RDM hasn't been able to cast T4 spells since the level 80 cap was released.
-WHM frame would always cast the highest tier cure despite MP cost/if it was called for.
-WHM frame would always cast -na spells over Cure (which they still do, but...)
-All mage frames would cast one spell then have to wait ~23 secs depending on frame/head mixture.
-BLM frame would only cast Aspir when MP hit 75%.
-Shock Absorber attachment was a constant 100HP Stoneskin; useless when everything in abyssea hits for 200+ as VT/IT.
-Eraser would remove ALL maneuvers, but would only remove status effects equal to the number of Light Maneuvers lost.
-Heatsink would only apply to Fire Maneuvers (helpful for RNG/Melee frame. Useless for mage frames.)
-Even with Analyzer equipped, the Automaton's Shield Bash would only gain an enhancement if the mob used the TP move already. (If it used another TP move different from the previous one, the "memory" on Analyzer would reset.)
-RNG Frame Automaton's ranged attacks are calculated as Throwing; the closer the automaton is, the more damage it does and the more likely it will take damage. Further away, it is safer but does less damage.

Don't say "Are PUPs the only loved ones" like we get something every update. This (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/16436-dev1035-Job-Adjustments?p=218426#post218426) has been LONG overdue.

[Soranika]

Shouldn't elemental spirits be more compared to the use of monsters that BST's charm than that of automatons anyway?

[Ophannus]

Spirits don't need to be relevant, they were basically placeholders until RoZ was added and the Avatars were introduced. They need about as much updating as low level BLU spells and nukes.

[Soranika]

Spirits don't need to be relevant, they were basically placeholders until RoZ was added and the Avatars were introduced. They need about as much updating as low level BLU spells and nukes.
Maybe so. I still find relevance in voidwatch, using them to help proc elemental magic if we're low on blms and some stuff don't land. Hugely a luck factor in there, but they've been proven to work.

[Shotaro1]

I see no problem with smn really, i think its good as is. Smn along with bst dominates things like WoE. They are pretty much the ones carrying the PC's to victory (like the big dragon flux forget what number, PC's bite it so easily from Vermillion Wind, and others, pets take it in stride) with thier amazing curing of pets (bst), and ability to just poop out a new pet in a matter of seconds (smn). Pup cannot do that, at least NOT as well.

Its time for other pet jobs to shine imo, or get some kind of spot in the light.

[Mizuharu]

Oh, and another thing.

Avatars have a native Physical Damage Taken -50%; 52~% with Stout Servant and no gear.


And yes, I'm aware you're talking for Titan's Favor being changed from DEF+ to DMG taken-. But Automatons only have PDT-5% just from stout servant and no gear. And with gear (not counting any add-on augmented gear), we can get a whomping PDT-5% and DMG taken -2%.

Players that will be tanking and will be the ones that benefit the most from the favor can easily get damage taken- gear. And Earthen Armor on top of all that to lower damage even further should an attack be lethal.

Please, for the love of God, don't complain about Puppetmasters getting a pet update that matters after so long. SMN isn't broken. Well... Maybe for that Phalanx bit from Diabolos and Sleepga. But Spirits are considered useless among summoners for anything that isn't what I listed before in my previous post. PUPs actually NEED this to function properly as a Solo job/Party job. This is going to open quite a few doors for PUP; doors that SMN already has access to.

[Alhanelem]

Before I read this thread, I wouldn't have believe anyone was angry that PUP is finally getting some attention. Turns out I would have been wrong.

Summoner has a purpose and a use right now. PUP has no use. Stop whining.
I would strongly disagree that "PUP has no use" right now, though I would agree if it was changed to "No use that especially stands out in a crowd." It's not that PUP is "bad", it's that nothing it does is particularly special except maybe in a solo context.

That being said, the changes in this update make the things that a lot of people WANT to do with pup but cant much more doable than before. e.g. being able to take a supportive role without getting screwed pver on any monster that inflicts any curable status effect. Just making the AI a lot less fail is a miracle in itself as far as making PUP more useable.

[Byrth]

You'd be wrong. PUP has no purpose in the game. You can use it to solo DC monsters, but what can't you use to solo DC monsters?

Voidwatch? One shade below totally worthless. Oh yay, a damage source that can occasionally proc stuff.
XPing? Not an event anymore. If you don't get all the xp you need just from doing other stuff, you're leveling a new job or doin' it wrong.
Dynamis? No JA procs worth talking about, and no TH.
Abyssea? Can't even proc well in Blunt, let alone magical WSs or magic.
Salvage? Anything + Anything can duo almost every zone. PUP has no particular advantages.
WoE? Puppet recast is too long to be relevant as a pet job. As a melee it has all the same problems as every other melee.

It's worthless. I don't know how I could possibly design an event where it's not worthless.

[Darkvalkyr]

I see nothing in OP about spirits beyond the last; why the sudden talk about Spirits?

[hiko]

I see nothing in OP about spirits beyond the last; why the sudden talk about Spirits?
really?


I was reading about how it seemed like you were fixing everything with PUP in a single update and thought it sounded very wonderful. I could however not avoid noticing how a lot of the changes are stuff that are very closely connected to SMN.

Do you have similar plans for Summoner? (I know you supposedly have surveyed us about ward improvements, but it would be nice to know how much you intend on fixing, seeing as you are fixing everything on PUP)




Like are you going to fix Titan's favor to give damage reduction instead of defense, just how you changed the Armor Plating attachments effects?

Are you going to raise the amount of damage reduction on Nocturnal Shield?

Are you going to increase the priority of sleepga from Shiva since it is 1.5 min (sleepga 2) duration, and yet you can't overwrite sleepga 1 (1 min duration)?

Are you going to split up and improve healing AI for Light Spirit?

Are you going to add new spells to Spirits? (Since apparently it is still only Light Spirit getting new nukes and nothing else)


I'm quite envious at the amount of "fixes" going towards PUP right now. I've always said "fixes" are the only thing SMN needs, and yet all we get is new content. Never do we seem to get adjustments that make our old abilities useful.

Do to wards what you did to attachments, and do to spirits what you did to frames, and I believe you might have rejuvenated SMN into a brand new job.

totally nothing about spirits

[Mizuharu]

Voidwatch? One shade below totally worthless. Oh yay, a damage source that can occasionally proc stuff.

Isn't that the case with every job? >.> Well, granted you NEED at least one blm for procing. Three-ish for killing it. But the DDs are just there to proc also along with damage. And PUP can still proc some while doing damage (ya know, like a RNG is there to do damage and then Archery WSs when it pops up.(Leave Marksmanship to the COR. And you will have a COR. Regain rolls are a must for WS procing. /rant))
The Automaton BLM frame gets higher numbers per nuke than a BLM(without a set proc.) And Deactivate wipes the Automaton off the hate list completely. I think it's a good bonus source of hateless damage.


XPing? Not an event anymore. If you don't get all the xp you need just from doing other stuff, you're leveling a new job or doin' it wrong.
Agreed.


Dynamis? No JA procs worth talking about, and no TH.
Do what everyone else does for JA procs; sub DNC.


Abyssea? Can't even proc well in Blunt, let alone magical WSs or magic.
While it's true PUP can't proc magic, a PUP/WAR can do all h2h (save for Asuran Fists), all club (save for Hexa/Black Halo), and (with some staff merits + head gear) can do

Red Lotus Blade (Feast of Swords sword for all jobs)
Seraph Blade (^)
Seraph Strike
Earth Crusher
Sunburst
Raiden Thrust (Halloween Polearm)
Energy Drain
Cyclone

Only missing Jinpu/Koki, Ei, Shadow of Death, and Freezebite.


Salvage? Anything + Anything can duo almost every zone. PUP has no particular advantages.
While anything + rdm/whm/sch can duo "almost" everything, you need a third person anyway to even get access in. PUP/NIN with a proper eva set up is a hell of an evasion tank. And the automaton adds another source of damage.


WoE? Puppet recast is too long to be relevant as a pet job. As a melee it has all the same problems as every other melee.
Again, while it is a 1min wait time, it's the same time cooldown as a SMN's blood pacts (unless they actually use Blood Pact - gear like they're SUPPOSE TO. (I cry for the SMNs now a days fulltiming the same gear ; ; )) PUP does decent in most fluxes. I get about ~9k just Deploy/Deactivate and subbing sch to cure people.


It's worthless. I don't know how I could possibly design an event where it's not worthless.

It's only as worthless as the player wants it to be. Find some career pups instead of all the abyssea burn ones.

[Greatguardian]

I have a well-geared, career PUP in my Voidwatch shell. I've known him for half a decade, cool guy.

He comes on his recently Abyssea-burned SCH to all of our runs because PUP is pretty much useless. It's straight up impossible to force the puppet to use really weak weaponskills for procs, so it's far worse in practice than it is on paper. It can't handle every H2H proc, and the rest of its weapons are pretty fail tier, so we're better off just bringing a Mnk to cover everything PUP can do and then some.

I don't think you realize that doing damage is a secondary, hell even tertiary concern these days. PUP can certainly DD with the rest of the big boys, no one's denying that. Hell, so can Dragoon in Abyssea. That doesn't make Dragoon worth a crap in Abyssea. That simply doesn't make it useful when the focus of the game has shifted away from ZERGZERGZERGZERGZERG REPEAT.

Ironically, PUP as it is now would have been a lot more useful 4 years ago.

[Mizuharu]

I have a well-geared, career PUP in my Voidwatch shell. I've known him for half a decade, cool guy.

He comes on his recently Abyssea-burned SCH to all of our runs because PUP is pretty much useless. It's straight up impossible to force the puppet to use really weak weaponskills for procs, so it's far worse in practice than it is on paper. It can't handle every H2H proc, and the rest of its weapons are pretty fail tier, so we're better off just bringing a Mnk to cover everything PUP can do and then some.

I don't think you realize that doing damage is a secondary, hell even tertiary concern these days. PUP can certainly DD with the rest of the big boys, no one's denying that. Hell, so can Dragoon in Abyssea. That doesn't make Dragoon worth a crap in Abyssea. That simply doesn't make it useful when the focus of the game has shifted away from ZERGZERGZERGZERGZERG REPEAT.

Ironically, PUP as it is now would have been a lot more useful 4 years ago.

DRG's a good DD too outside :< All my favorite jobs keep getting shot down qq...

But yeah I have SCH too... Thankfully, we recently got a second SCH so I get to drg or pup more often lol

[Byrth]

Abyssea : You named all the magic WSs that almost every job /WAR can do. That doesn't make PUP a good Abyssea proc job, it makes WAR a good Abyssea proc sub. Also, PUP/WAR can't do Cyclone and Energy Drain.

Voidwatch: Similarly, being able to occasionally rival the damage of a BLM nuke (hint: BLMs aren't there for damage and aren't competitive with DDs) doesn't make it a good Voidwatch job. I'd put PUP as a proccer about on the usefulness level of DNC as a proccer.

Salvage: You don't need an Evasion build for Salvage. At 95, you should cap evade rate in your TP gear thanks to traits. I go DNC/THF to Salvage for TH because my evade rate is perma capped and Utsu isn't doing much for me.

Dynamis: Being able to proc or have TH doesn't make you able to proc with TH, and means there are many jobs better suited to it than PUP.

Again, it's not like PUP can't do any of the things I named... it's just that they're not a good choice if you have other options. Abyssea xp rates have made it so almost everyone has other options.

[Malamasala]

I really think Automatons needed the love more than Spirits..

The point is that they share the same code and same problems. Sharing the solution seems logical.

Think like this. You got a math problem saying 3 + 5 = ?. Next math problem is 5 + 3 = ?.

That is your automaton and spirit code. Very similar, but not exactly the same. SE just solved 3 + 5 = 8. I suggest they solve 5 + 3 = ? while they worked out the solution to 3 + 5.


It is only logical and easy. I don't claim that it is right or deserved.

Yet another comparison. Your son is mowing the lawn. He seems to finish very fast so you ask him if he really did cut all of it. His reply is "I only did half, because it needed it more than the other half".

Again, it would have been easiest to just mow the whole lawn at once. Splitting it up so you mow half on tuesdays and half on fridays will just make it more annoying to do.


As you see, no denying PUP needs it more. Just saying that they could as well finish all AI adjustments in the same batch.

[Camiie]

I love how people didn't read the OP and only the one-liner insult responses and treated them as though they actually referred to the entirety of the content of the OP. If you aren't going to read why are you on a forum again?

[Soranika]

Spirits don't define or even represent the SMN ability though Mala.... the avatars do.

[Darkvalkyr]

really?



totally nothing about spirits

I said 'except the last'.

Shoulda added bit. But yeah.

Majority of topic is disproportionately talking about that last part.

[Kimble]

I still don't get all the SCH love in voidwatch. Id much rather have a PUP over a SCH. Ive stopped taking SCH to VW and replaced it with a DD and have found runs to go much faster/smoother.

[Moink]

I was reading about how it seemed like you were fixing everything with PUP in a single update and thought it sounded very wonderful. I could however not avoid noticing how a lot of the changes are stuff that are very closely connected to SMN.

Do you have similar plans for Summoner? (I know you supposedly have surveyed us about ward improvements, but it would be nice to know how much you intend on fixing, seeing as you are fixing everything on PUP)

As one who enjoys all pet jobs I find it somewhat of an insult that you come to write a thread that complains on probably the most broken pet job since it was conceived. You complain now with PUP instead of when BST obtained an over the top JA that turns their jug pets into brief overpowered pets before being forced to dissolve. Or the continued improvements to the DRG's wyvern and its defenses availability as to what it can and can not do. No, it comes down to the PUPs who needed this update for a very long time...



Like are you going to fix Titan's favor to give damage reduction instead of defense, just how you changed the Armor Plating attachments effects?

It is a favor, if your Avatar is out any longer than it needs to be to get off a Rage(Which gets gimped to begin with because you used it's Favor) that doesn't require 300 tp to be good or to do a small Ward to cover a heal then something is wrong.


Are you going to raise the amount of damage reduction on Nocturnal Shield?
It is a buff that is no different than any other BP Ward buff. It is meant to be over written when given the opportunity.


Are you going to increase the priority of sleepga from Shiva since it is 1.5 min (sleepga 2) duration, and yet you can't overwrite sleepga 1 (1 min duration)?
If Sleepga has been landed on a group of mobs, why are you not being more efficient and using Diamond Storm instead? The Ward name says Sleepga not Sleepga II meaning you can't overwrite regardless of the duration, animation or sounds being similar to Sleepga II. Clearly there is a BLM or RDM in the group and your job isn't crowd control in respect of sleeping.


Are you going to split up and improve healing AI for Light Spirit?
Spirits should be the least of your concern. Especially the Light one to which has the capacity to cast Regen and other Party Specific only boosts OUTSIDE of the party and into the Alliance.


Are you going to add new spells to Spirits? (Since apparently it is still only Light Spirit getting new nukes and nothing else) Do you really stand there watching your Spirits cast nukes on Monsters or worse yet NMs when you could be more efficient using your actual use as in the 9 soon to be 10 that are in all honesty more powerful and will always be more powerful than a Spirt?

Yes I know there are 11 available and 2 more coming down the pipe but 3 of them will be no more useful than watching paint dry if your Astral flow is Down.


I'm quite envious at the amount of "fixes" going towards PUP right now. I've always said "fixes" are the only thing SMN needs, and yet all we get is new content. Never do we seem to get adjustments that make our old abilities useful.

Do to wards what you did to attachments, and do to spirits what you did to frames, and I believe you might have rejuvenated SMN into a brand new job.
The job doesn't need "rejuvenated", maybe a few fixes or requests of more fancy Avatars but it never needed a fix anywhere near the capacity of the Automaton.

Using a math equation for an analogy of the Aumaton and Spirits is horrible as is the lawn cutting scenario. The code isn't the same and if my lawn had any level of importance and my son or daughter had cut the front lawn because its more respectable than my fenced in backyard that noone can see or even care about and might get to it later when there are "less" important chores to take care then fine by me.

[SpankWustler]

The point is that they share the same code and same problems. Sharing the solution seems logical.

Even if Spirits and Puppets still have comparable code after all the changes that have been made to puppets over time, there's one more thing to consider when looking for a solution. Do elemental spirits have the same purpose as the mage puppets?

Puppetmasters use their Black Mage puppets for magic damage, and if the White Mage puppet doesn't suck after the coming update, for healing. This works because there's lots of junk they can throw on their animate tea kettles to make the little bros perform less horribly.

Spirits are currently used to try for Elemental Siphon or maybe magical procs in Abyssea and Voidwatch if a bro or bro-ette is desperate. Summoner has other options for magic damage and healing, options which the Summoner can actually control. Plus, there's very little that could affect a Spirit's magical damage beyond a few Pet: Magic AttacK Bonus pieces, so how much magic damage could a "naked" Spirit actually do even if it did cast in a competent manner?

This makes me wonder what the spirits should do better if they are ever improved. If Spirits were made similarly competent to the Black Mage and White Mage puppets, how much would it really add to summoner? If Spirits were made better at casting lots of random spells until something makes a !! pop up, how would that work out? If Spirits were given no perpetuation cost to make Elemental Siphon return a little more MP, would there by any point?

And the most important question of all. Why did I delay a much needed trip to the bathroom to type this post?

[Mahoro]

I still don't get all the SCH love in voidwatch. Id much rather have a PUP over a SCH. Ive stopped taking SCH to VW and replaced it with a DD and have found runs to go much faster/smoother.

We usually put our main SCH with the BLM PT. Unique procs + versatility in healing or helping out with magic procs + Accession-Embrava if needed on a big zerg (Ildebrann, Cactuar, etc). Although in an ideal alliance I would have a SCH and a PUP/MNK.

[Greatguardian]

We usually put our main SCH with the BLM PT. Unique procs + versatility in healing or helping out with magic procs + Accession-Embrava if needed on a big zerg (Ildebrann, Cactuar, etc). Although in an ideal alliance I would have a SCH and a PUP/MNK.

In addition to your MNK? Or does your ideal alliance have more than 18 slots in it?

[Mahoro]

In addition to your MNK? Or does your ideal alliance have more than 18 slots in it?

Instead of.

[Greatguardian]

Instead of.

I'd love to hear your reasoning for that. Are you so strapped for healing that the WHM puppet becomes necessary?

[Mahoro]

I'd love to hear your reasoning for that. Are you so strapped for healing that the WHM puppet becomes necessary?

Not sure what you mean. The post to which I was responding talked about having a PUP over a SCH. I merely said in my ideal alliance I'd have both.

[Soranika]

H2H procs? Only thing I can imagine. It's not often that a pup frame proc appears in VW.

[Mahoro]

H2H procs? Only thing I can imagine. It's not often that a pup frame proc appears in VW.

Ya, PUP/MNK to cover the majority of H2H WS triggers while still having all the PUP JA and Automaton WS's covered.

[Greatguardian]

Ya, PUP/MNK to cover the majority of H2H WS triggers while still having all the PUP JA and Automaton WS's covered.

They're missing Asuran Fists. They're also unable to actually trigger the vast majority of Automaton procs, as I mentioned earlier in this thread. Sure, there might be 12 different Auto-WS procs, but good luck getting your puppet to actually use all of them.

PUP as a "Proc" job is a complete waste of space in Voidwatch, which is why I'm wondering what in the world your reasoning is for using them over a Monk, which has every H2H WS, the vast majority of Staff/Club WS, and is a stronger DD.

Edit: Also,
Not sure what you mean. The post to which I was responding talked about having a PUP over a SCH. I merely said in my ideal alliance I'd have both.

Yes. And I said, "Why would you bring a PUP at all if you have a Monk?" You replied with, "Well, I wouldn't bring a Monk."

So I'd like to hear why you would bring a PUP instead of a MNK. Alliance spots are not infinite. If you're wasting a spot on PUP, then there's some other job with significantly more procs or more utility that isn't being used.

[Mahoro]

They're missing Asuran Fists. They're also unable to actually trigger the vast majority of Automaton procs, as I mentioned earlier in this thread. Sure, there might be 12 different Auto-WS procs, but good luck getting your puppet to actually use all of them.

PUP as a "Proc" job is a complete waste of space in Voidwatch, which is why I'm wondering what in the world your reasoning is for using them over a Monk, which has every H2H WS, the vast majority of Staff/Club WS, and is a stronger DD.

Edit: Also,

Yes. And I said, "Why would you bring a PUP at all if you have a Monk?" You replied with, "Well, I wouldn't bring a Monk."

So I'd like to hear why you would bring a PUP instead of a MNK. Alliance spots are not infinite. If you're wasting a spot on PUP, then there's some other job with significantly more procs or more utility that isn't being used.

I know they're missing Asuran Fists, I said "majority" in my original post....

I know the PUP has issues with certain WS. DRG has the same issues with its wyvern. I never said the procs would be easy to carry out. However, what I CAN say with certainty is that your odds of proccing a Wyvern or Automaton proc WITHOUT some DRG or PUP in alliance is 0%.

Yes, I know alliance spots are not infinite. I was suggesting an ideal setup to cover as many procs as possible. Obviously, even this setup is missing some procs, and would obviously have to be adjusted based on the mob being fought:

PLD, NIN, BRD, WHM, RDM, SMN
WAR, PUP/MNK, DRG, COR, DRK, WHM
BLM, DNC, BLU, RNG, THF, SCH

[Greatguardian]

DRG has EX lance WS and a heap of unique JAs, and is one of the game's strongest DDs. PUP can be completely eclipsed by MNK and functions as an average DD. There is no comparison between the two.

I'd also take issue with your ideal alliance, personally =/. That's a pretty optimistic setup.

[Mahoro]

DRG has EX lance WS and a heap of unique JAs, and is one of the game's strongest DDs. PUP can be completely eclipsed by MNK and functions as an average DD. There is no comparison between the two.

I'd also take issue with your ideal alliance, personally =/. That's a pretty optimistic setup.

You are introducing a factor into the analysis which I was intentionally not using: DD strength. Obviously, the setup I proposed above would not be used in some of the new fights (Kaggen, Pil, Aello, Ildebrann etc). Instead, one would sacrifice some of the more obscure procs (PUP, BST, etc) for more of the same job, heavier DD, or more ranged DD.

[Greatguardian]

You are introducing a factor into the analysis which I was intentionally not using: DD strength. Obviously, the setup I proposed above would not be used in some of the new fights (Kaggen, Pil, Ildebrann etc). Instead, one would sacrifice some of the more obscure procs (PUP, BST, etc) for more of the same job or heavier DD.

Even taking DD power out of the equation, MNK has more procs than PUP unless you want your mages to be in melee range =/.

[Mahoro]

Even taking DD power out of the equation, MNK has more procs than PUP unless you want your mages to be in melee range =/.

I haven't counted the total number of procs each would have. If you have, great, I'm actually curious as to the final numbers. Of course, as you know, any such tabulation would have to take into account the PUP having access to certain Dagger and Club procs, as well as the total number of PUP JA and Automaton WS.

[Byrth]

You don't need to be able to proc every weakness that shows up. Let the percentage of weaknesses your alliance can hit be N%. Of the first 8 weaknesses, your alliance will be able to hit 8*N% Weaknesses. Because you hit 8*N% weaknesses, there will be 8*N% new weaknesses to hit and your odds of proccing them are N% again giving you a total of 8*N%^2 weaknesses from the second round. If you repeat this process out to infinity, you end up with 8*sum(N + N^2 + N^3 + N^4...) weaknesses when starting the fight with an N% proc rate.

This formula inverts across N=.5
10% proc rate = 1/9
20% proc rate = 2/8
30% proc rate = 3/7
40% proc rate = 2/3
50% proc rate = 1
60% proc rate = 3/2
70% proc rate = 7/3
80% proc rate = 8/2
90% proc rate = 9/1

Moral of the story is that a group that can proc 2/3 of the weaknesses (16 procs per fight average) is generally going to cap lights easily. You don't need to take jobs that cover a very small amount of procs like DNC and PUP. DNC has all of two JAs that can't be subbed. PUP is a monk with low attack/martial arts and a frustrating sidekick.

[Mizuharu]

They're missing Asuran Fists. They're also unable to actually trigger the vast majority of Automaton procs, as I mentioned earlier in this thread. Sure, there might be 12 different Auto-WS procs, but good luck getting your puppet to actually use all of them.

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. What?


Sure, there might be 12 different Auto-WS procs, but good luck getting your puppet to actually use all of them.

Uh.
Harlequin/Stormwaker
- Slapstick/Thunder Maneuver
- Knockout/Wind Maneuver
- Magic Morter/Light Maneuver

Sharpshot Frame
- Arcuballista/Fire Maneuver
- Daze/Thunder Maneuver
- Armor Piercer/Dark Maneuver
- Armor Shatterer/Wind Maneuver

Valoredge Frame
- Chimera Ripper/Fire Maneuver
- String Clipper+String Shredder/Thunder Maneuver
- Cannibal Blade/Dark Maneuver
- Bone Crusher/Light Maneuver

So yeah, the only real weapon skill you can't force an automaton to do is String Clipper since String Shredder and it share the same "deciding maneuver." Therefore, it is chosen over String Clipper should the automaton have the proper skill level. You can easily force an automaton to do a certain weapon skill. >.> And for TP gain you could get TP yourself then Tactical Switch or just set Heat Capacitor. (If the WS you want to force is fire based, Heat Capacitor has a 1:30 min recast timer. So you'll have plenty of a window before a fire maneuver would be erased.)

Shockingly enough, Puppetmaster is a job you have to have had experience playing/done enough research about it to actually understand how it works. You're gearing two "characters." Not one. You think all of that AI in the Automaton and there wouldn't be a way to force a certain weapon skill? lol... Actually, scratch that "lol." They still can't seem to put curing over -na spells. Hopefully that changes with this update.

[Mahoro]

You don't need to be able to proc every weakness that shows up. Let the percentage of weaknesses your alliance can hit be N%. Of the first 8 weaknesses, your alliance will be able to hit 8*N% Weaknesses. Because you hit 8*N% weaknesses, there will be 8*N% new weaknesses to hit and your odds of proccing them are N% again giving you a total of 8*N%^2 weaknesses from the second round. If you repeat this process out to infinity, you end up with 8*sum(N + N^2 + N^3 + N^4...) weaknesses when starting the fight with an N% proc rate.

This formula inverts across N=.5
10% proc rate = 1/9
20% proc rate = 2/8
30% proc rate = 3/7
40% proc rate = 2/3
50% proc rate = 1
60% proc rate = 3/2
70% proc rate = 7/3
80% proc rate = 8/2
90% proc rate = 9/1

Moral of the story is that a group that can proc 2/3 of the weaknesses (16 procs per fight average) is generally going to cap lights easily. You don't need to take jobs that cover a very small amount of procs like DNC and PUP. DNC has all of two JAs that can't be subbed. PUP is a monk with low attack/martial arts and a frustrating sidekick.

I do agree that a group doesn't have to proc every weakness thrown at it to do well at capping lights. The "ideal" setup is just that...an ideal. And it certainly wouldn't survive against a mob that takes a particular kind of setup (i.e., most of the new T3 mobs).

I don't know enough about PUP to know how frustrating its sidekick can be, but people like Mizu above can speak to that better than I can. I just know that well-geared, knowledgeable PUP's can do very well in a VW alliance and cover a great many procs. I'd still be interested in seeing the total number of procs a MNK has vs. a PUP (before factoring in subs), but I can't be arsed to put together the list at the moment.

[Kimble]

Set up that I use that does very well.

PLD, RDM, WHM, WHM, BRD, SMN
BLM, BLM, BLM, BLU, RNG, DD (DRG, PUP, WAR, etc)
COR, WAR, SAM, DRK, MNK, NIN

on Zilart will add a 2nd PLD and drop a DD and have a WHM move to DD party if needed.

SCH is generally useless imo. Sure they have Helix but that is only one spell per the element. Next update, they wont even have that. Sure they can help proc 2-4 on regular nukes but so can the RDM while having all their own procs as well (dia 3, bio 3, blind 2, para 2, slow 2) as well as refreshing, etc.

Ive found it a lot easier to focus on bring a spread of DD so its easier to proc blue since they will be able to keep their main weapons on, proc fast, and be able to keep it on during the blitz.

As far as mages procing. With fanatics/monarchs and using regain atma, its not that hard for them to run and and WS when they are ready to proc. Honestly, as long as you can proc blue a lot, it shouldnt matter if you have all red procs covered as zering during stagger should cap that for you anyways. Also makes harder nms. T3 go down much faster. Hell that set up takes out the t4s from last voidwatch in 3-4 minutes while having capped lights.

[Leonlionheart]

SCH has more procs than RDM, including JA procs as long as it subs whm or rdm. It's also a better healer and nuker when it needs to be. Regain, and other unique buffs are also very useful in VW. Not often does the healing party ever have MP problems unless you simply SUCK at proccing, so refresh is utterly moot.

Also, you're using 1 PLD too many (possibly 2 if you put 2 in your party) unless your DDs don't have PDT MDT sets. Proc enough and a WAR or MNK would be so much more worthwhile. (Have a mage or someone with a shield sub PLD for PLD JA if you must). There are fights where you need them, like Voidwrought or Zilart (for the adds) but other than that there's no need.

[Glamdring]

You'd be wrong. PUP has no purpose in the game. You can use it to solo DC monsters, but what can't you use to solo DC monsters?

Voidwatch? One shade below totally worthless. Oh yay, a damage source that can occasionally proc stuff.
XPing? Not an event anymore. If you don't get all the xp you need just from doing other stuff, you're leveling a new job or doin' it wrong.
Dynamis? No JA procs worth talking about, and no TH.
Abyssea? Can't even proc well in Blunt, let alone magical WSs or magic.
Salvage? Anything + Anything can duo almost every zone. PUP has no particular advantages.
WoE? Puppet recast is too long to be relevant as a pet job. As a melee it has all the same problems as every other melee.

It's worthless. I don't know how I could possibly design an event where it's not worthless.

if you think pup is worthless in WoE you're not playing it right. Rng and BLM do very nice damage, just let the pet do the work and you don't need to Zombie on the master, and we can recall pet at 1 minute intervals, it's not weakend after death, just low on HP. With Whm finally getting a bit smarter we can finally cure decently. Go Pup/war or /dnc to Dynamis with whm or blm pups, proc JA from sub, WS from you and you may magic proc or else heal pt members. Use against any mob that charms (since pets are immune), and unlike bst you have more options than just melee damage and the occasional TP move. Take it to aby, use blm or rdm auto now and build azure and pearl solo easily, then switch to VE or SS and go nuts on damage or use rdm or whm to heal and solo. Use in voidwatch much the same as in Dynamis. Salvage auto owns versus the boss or imps, especially if everyone else will keep their distance on the charmers (although good luck being on the priority list for necessary cells). Take any frame out to GoV, they're all good there.

In fact, the only thing they aren't useful for is spamming AoE.

Pup could always do all that, we do it MUCH better now.

[Kimble]

SCH has more procs than RDM, including JA procs as long as it subs whm or rdm. It's also a better healer and nuker when it needs to be. Regain, and other unique buffs are also very useful in VW. Not often does the healing party ever have MP problems unless you simply SUCK at proccing, so refresh is utterly moot.

Also, you're using 1 PLD too many (possibly 2 if you put 2 in your party) unless your DDs don't have PDT MDT sets. Proc enough and a WAR or MNK would be so much more worthwhile. (Have a mage or someone with a shield sub PLD for PLD JA if you must). There are fights where you need them, like Voidwrought or Zilart (for the adds) but other than that there's no need.

SCH's Regain is pretty moot as well with Monarch's drink. What other "unique" buffs? the enmity down spell is worthless with gnotics(sp) drink. As of now, their JA proc is not much of a point since its glitched and doesn't proc half the time even when landing.

Zilart will need 2 PLDS usually. One to hold adds.

[Leonlionheart]

SCH's Regain is pretty moot as well with Monarch's drink. What other "unique" buffs? the enmity down spell is worthless with gnotics(sp) drink. As of now, their JA proc is not much of a point since its glitched and doesn't proc half the time even when landing.

Zilart will need 2 PLDS usually. One to hold adds.

Even with just 1 tick regain, better than what RDM is doing. Too bad Temper is completely worthless, or RDM may have had a chance. (More magic procs says hi)

Only T3 zilart fight that really needs 2 PLDs is Aelo. I've tanked, along with another WAR or MNK, both Qilin and Uptala successfully.

[Kimble]

Its risky. And I don't believe you are doing it with 100% efficiency if doing that that way.

And no, the regain is useless from SCH. It doesn't stack with Monarchs drink and Monarchs drink is stronger Regain so it does nothing.

After next update, RDM will be better than SCH. I've done tons of Voidwatch and have done way better with a RDM over a SCH. On fights where healing matters a lot (aoe damage) the SCH is still meh on AOE healing and better to have a WHM do it.

[Leonlionheart]

"Risky" even though I've seen PLDs wipe to uptala just as easily as any DD

Qilin you could probably do with your eyes closed

[Malamasala]

This makes me wonder what the spirits should do better if they are ever improved. If Spirits were made similarly competent to the Black Mage and White Mage puppets, how much would it really add to summoner?

You have to view spirits like avatar's favor. It does in no way enhance your BP:Rage spam and damage output, but it opens up new ways to support an alliance.

A functional Light Spirit would allow you to at dire situations call it out and basically add a WHM to the alliance. Bringing a WHM might have been overkill to start with, but bad luck made it a necessity. SMN simply covered it. (Or PUP, if you wanted to use that as a backup WHM solution).

A functional Light Spirit also allows you to change sub. If you can cure yourself, you can sub for example SAM and meditate TP to fill in WS triggers in VW. Or you can trigger NMs in Abyssea. Or you can simply refill MP with Myrkr if you happen to have that. I tend to sub WHM for cure IV. If I had Cure V from a trusty Light Spirit, I'd sub SCH to help nuke trigger on VW.

Other spirits have much less use. A split casting timer update like for PUP would allow them to be used as debuffers and DoTers, instead of Avatar spike damage. An obvious use would be triggers of course. But else it is mainly to avoid amnesia on an avatar, while making yourself vulnerable to silence on a spirit.

Another way to view spirits and avatars, are that avatars are for bosses and spirits are for normal mobs. After all, if a monster dies in 10 seconds, then a spirit casting nukes every 20 seconds is better than an avatar who does BPs every 45 seconds. Spirits are not meant to replace Avatars, just fill in those gaps the job has where you are just standing there watching all the BLMs, WARs etc kill monster after monster while your BP timer is ticking down.

(Best would be if spirits had -ga magic, but I doubt that would ever happen)


And the most important question of all. Why did I delay a much needed trip to the bathroom to type this post?

Maybe you were interested in an answer to your questions?

[Kimble]

"Risky" even though I've seen PLDs wipe to uptala just as easily as any DD

Qilin you could probably do with your eyes closed

Is it impossible? No. but for it to work well would mean you are procing pretty quickly to keep filling temp items.

[Moink]

You have to view spirits like avatar's favor. It does in no way enhance your BP:Rage spam and damage output, but it opens up new ways to support an alliance.

A functional Light Spirit would allow you to at dire situations call it out and basically add a WHM to the alliance. Bringing a WHM might have been overkill to start with, but bad luck made it a necessity. SMN simply covered it. (Or PUP, if you wanted to use that as a backup WHM solution).

A functional Light Spirit also allows you to change sub. If you can cure yourself, you can sub for example SAM and meditate TP to fill in WS triggers in VW. Or you can trigger NMs in Abyssea. Or you can simply refill MP with Myrkr if you happen to have that. I tend to sub WHM for cure IV. If I had Cure V from a trusty Light Spirit, I'd sub SCH to help nuke trigger on VW.

Other spirits have much less use. A split casting timer update like for PUP would allow them to be used as debuffers and DoTers, instead of Avatar spike damage. An obvious use would be triggers of course. But else it is mainly to avoid amnesia on an avatar, while making yourself vulnerable to silence on a spirit.

Another way to view spirits and avatars, are that avatars are for bosses and spirits are for normal mobs. After all, if a monster dies in 10 seconds, then a spirit casting nukes every 20 seconds is better than an avatar who does BPs every 45 seconds. Spirits are not meant to replace Avatars, just fill in those gaps the job has where you are just standing there watching all the BLMs, WARs etc kill monster after monster while your BP timer is ticking down.

(Best would be if spirits had -ga magic, but I doubt that would ever happen)



Maybe you were interested in an answer to your questions?

Woooooooow, I've lost all hope with thinking like that...

[Soranika]

What... the hell did I just read?

[Kimble]

So basically. SMN should be the best at everything?

[Moink]

I don't know which is the worst complaint PUP thread.... The WTF SE whining about a BLM Head getting Absorb - Attri & Dread Spikes... or this...

[Soranika]

If it's one thing I would like the devs hear from me, it would be please don't listen to just one SMN out of many want. Not all of us have this convoluted ideal that spirits should be anything than what they are currently.

[Shotaro1]

I don't know which is the worst complaint PUP thread.... The WTF SE whining about a BLM Head getting Absorb - Attri & Dread Spikes... or this...

^ A++++++++++++++++++++++

[Alhanelem]

I know it was a long time ago, but my power went out for a long time:

Byrth, if all you can solo on PUP is "DC monsters," then you're intentionally trying to fail. You're probably not using a hand to hand weapon and don't have the automaton even summoned.:confused:

[Mizuharu]

I don't know which is the worst complaint PUP thread.... The WTF SE whining about a BLM Head getting Absorb - Attri & Dread Spikes... or this...

I know which is worst. The third option. The one that combinds both threads and then siphoning out the crap and QQbutthurtRAGE comments from ones that actually bring up a valid point.

btw, I've yet to see a valid point in either of these topics that are complaining about the most broken pet ever finally getting fixed.

None of ya going to ruin MY Pupdate with all this complaining!

[Alhanelem]

I know which is worst. The third option. The one that combinds both threads and then siphoning out the crap and QQbutthurtRAGE comments from ones that actually bring up a valid point.

btw, I've yet to see a valid point in either of these topics that are complaining about the most broken pet ever finally getting fixed.

None of ya going to ruin MY Pupdate with all this complaining!
my last comment notwithstanding, you're 100% correct because this update is pure win.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I know it was a long time ago, but my power went out for a long time:

Byrth, if all you can solo on PUP is "DC monsters," then you're intentionally trying to fail. You're probably not using a hand to hand weapon and don't have the automaton even summoned.:confused:

Name something stronger than DC-EM a Pup can solo you couldn't do faster and/or safer on another job.

[Hayward]

So basically. SMN should be the best at everything?


Where in the post did you see any suggetion of the kind?

I'm very satisfied with the updates to Puppetmaster as it was necessary and makes the job all the more enjoyable. What is annoying, though, is S-E's outright refusal to make similar fixes to the Summoner job. Spirits may be a secondary feature, but still needs to be made as relevant as possible when avatars aren't possible. There are still aspects to this job that need to be fixed to unshackle this job and allow it to reach it's potential.

Sorry, but I'm not trying to hear non-Summoners crying wolf about these suggestions being overpowered.

[Moink]

Where in the post did you see any suggetion of the kind?

I'm very satisfied with the updates to Puppetmaster as it was necessary and makes the job all the more enjoyable. What is annoying, though, is S-E's outright refusal to make similar fixes to the Summoner job. Spirits may be a secondary feature, but still needs to be made as relevant as possible when avatars aren't possible. There are still aspects to this job that need to be fixed to unshackle this job and allow it to reach it's potential.

Sorry, but I'm not trying to hear non-Summoners crying wolf about these suggestions being overpowered.

When has an avatar NOT been possible to summon that you needed a spirit to aid you? If you're silenced then neither an avatar or spirit is available... If you lose an avatar too fast because of a heavy tp move and the monster is too close to you do I ever seem to find the need to cast a spirit for that additional time to enhance the gap between myself and said monster being fought.

It is not about the job being overpowered. It is about the utillity of the Spirits and the small role they play for as a SMN and how are ANY of the people defending PUP crying wolf? Theyre defending, as am I, the idea that PUP needed this update far more than SMN and the poor thinking that Spirits need an update such as this.

[Moink]

People complaining about this PUPdate need to seriously shut their pie hole... Almost every extent of the update for PUP has been picked apart by poor thinking and "envious" stupidity... I am still waiting for the RNGs and CORs to complain about the fact Sharpshot doesn't need to be at a certain distance for ranged attacks / ws... or have I not seen that thread yet?...

[SpankWustler]

I really regret not just going to the bathroom immediately. Somebody wandered in there with an intent to shower after I spent a few minutes typing that post, and I had to hold it in forever. My only reward was reading someone's hopes and dreams of Light Spirit going from nigh-worthless to twice as competent as the average White Mage in a pick-up group.

If I die of lower gastrointestinal dysphoria before I die of something else then I am totally going to blame this topic and haunt somebody.

[Spiritreaver]

Where in the post did you see any suggetion of the kind?

I'm very satisfied with the updates to Puppetmaster as it was necessary and makes the job all the more enjoyable. What is annoying, though, is S-E's outright refusal to make similar fixes to the Summoner job. Spirits may be a secondary feature, but still needs to be made as relevant as possible when avatars aren't possible. There are still aspects to this job that need to be fixed to unshackle this job and allow it to reach it's potential.

Sorry, but I'm not trying to hear non-Summoners crying wolf about these suggestions being overpowered.

I appreciate the view you share in your post. However there is 'crying wolf" and then there is what mellowy always does. Speaking only for myself(though i'm reasonably sure i'm prolly not alone thinking it), i'm totally for every job getting the buffs it needs/requires; but i do not think you or anyone else needs/wants mellowy out front leading the charge for you.

[Razushu]

I really regret not just going to the bathroom immediately. Somebody wandered in there with an intent to shower after I spent a few minutes typing that post, and I had to hold it in forever. My only reward was reading someone's hopes and dreams of Light Spirit going from nigh-worthless to twice as competent as the average White Mage in a pick-up group.

If I die of lower gastrointestinal dysphoria before I die of something else then I am totally going to blame this topic and haunt somebody.

Just haunt the forums, make it so anyone who demands a fix to spirits, or expresses a belief that they need to be boosted to relevance dies of extreme fright in seven days.

[Alhanelem]

Name something stronger than DC-EM a Pup can soloBasically anything other people can? Safer? PUP is one of the safest. Faster? PUP sure as hell is faster than other popular soloists, e.g. nin/dnc/smn/even bst.

Now excuse me, sorry to interrupt your trolling effort, but I need some food.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I was being serious. Faster than who now? I think you're smoking instead of eating. Maybe a 5/5 Aurore Dnc you'll be faster than...

There is no distinct advantage to using pup pre update. So yes a Bst soloing would be more efficient than bringing Pup.

[Alhanelem]

I was being serious. Faster than who now? I think you're smoking instead of eating. Maybe a 5/5 Aurore Dnc you'll be faster than...

There is no distinct advantage to using pup pre update. So yes a Bst soloing would be more efficient than bringing Pup.
No, it wouldn't. I'm not smoking anything. Even when geared for it, DNC is laughable as a DD, and a snail could kill faster. Amazingly easy to solo with, yes. Fast? No.

I'm not going to trash up another thread. Don't waste your time.

[Neisan_Quetz]

As bad as I think Dnc is I can't take you serious with that statement.

[Soranika]

Would love to see a PUP solo iron giants in abyssea. Or or even see a pup solo that one treant NM from the WoTG mission.

[Alhanelem]

Would love to see a PUP solo iron giants in abyssea.For that matter, I'd like to see any other melee DD solo them. Not duo with a pocket WHM, solo.

(Not saying it's not possible, but I've yet to see it- also depends on which giant)

[Mizuharu]

I was being serious. Faster than who now? I think you're smoking instead of eating. Maybe a 5/5 Aurore Dnc you'll be faster than...

Talking attack speed? Yeah, DNC would be faster. Talking about killing a target faster? PUP would be faster. They have better weapon skills for damaging than a DNC (Pummel/Smite), WHM bot so they're not using their TP for anything beyond Weapon Skilling. Dancer has a higher EVA than PUP (DNC EVA: B+; 376. PUP EVA: B; 370.) But PUP has Evasion Bonus IV where as DNC stops at III (granted they have closed position so they wouldn't have to swap out as much gear for eva+ as a pup would.) PUP has multiple ways of soloing though.

They can eva tank a T+ monster and pop out WHM frame for the occasional cure, then dismiss it before it takes damage (or leave it out of attack range if the aoe range of the monster's attack is small enough.) They can face tank EM or lower monsters and WHM frame still cures while applying extra damage from it's own melee. They can kite a monster while having the BLM frame being the main source of damage. (Keesha Poppo is a good example. PUPs were soloing that since 80 cap.) Or, and this really only applies to abyssea in most cases (or fighting beastmen pets,) the Automaton can tank for the PUP.

DNC really only has eva/face tanking options. And their weapon skills don't get as much damage as Pummel/Smite outside of abyssea unless they have the weapon advantage (and let's face it, Pummel/Smite have a clear advantage in abyssea for damage compared to Evisceration and DNC's low attack.)

And I just did DNC cause you were saying the only way a properly geared PUP would out perform a DNC would be a full aurore DNC. But of course, everyone is going to nit pick situations where one job out shines the others. But that's why there's 20 different jobs; for 20+ different ways to solo/defeat an enemy(ies).

[Byrth]

DNC has the same skill level as PUP, so your attack argument is silly. DNC also has an offhand, which compensates for any gear differences that might exist.

If you do the math, Dancer does 50% more damage and gains TP more than 50% faster than a puppetless puppetmaster. So the puppet has to do about 50% of the damage that the master would do if it didn't have an automaton out in order for it to be competitive with a Dancer that only uses Haste Samba and Saber Dance.

[Alhanelem]

They can eva tank a T+ monsterYou don't even have to stack evasion to tank T mobs.


DNC has the same skill level as PUP, so your attack argument is silly.Um, no, it's not a silly argument. Skill doesn't affect base damage on dagger the way it does hand to hand, and daggers have terrible base damage; on top of that, dancer does not have the same kind of capacity to boost WS damage that thief has. They can boost it somewhat, but you have to give up defense and stack gear for offense to even come close to competing with other jobs for damage. And with DNC, if you give up non-offensive stuff, you're leaving yourself open to taking more damage and thus spending more of your TP on healing yourself and not using weaponskils. A DMC tjat "only uses haste samba and saber dance" is also a dead DNC when the PUP with the healing auto would keep going.

There is no way to argue that a DNC can solo stuff faster than a PUP. PUP doesn't have to spend its TP to keep itself alive. The funny math that you're making up to make DNC sound stronger.doesn't add up. You're just pulling out random (not really even random) numbers. "DNC is 50% better this and does 50% better that, and all in all is 50% better than PUP and pup needs 50% more damage." Please, read your own post and realize how silly you sound. I totally admit guilt when it comes to being defensive about a job, but come on, you're being worse than I am about it right now... So please, describe in detail this math that we need to do to make DNC able to do more damage, or just stop.

(I really don't want to pursue this further, how about you make it easy for me?)

[Greatguardian]

You really think Byrth of all people is pulling numbers out of his ass? Really?

This will not end well. I look forward to seeing it nonetheless.

[Alhanelem]

You really think Byrth of all people is pulling numbers out of his ass? Really?

This will not end well. I look forward to seeing it nonetheless.
He is giving no equations or actual math. Just "50% this" and "50% that." Without the supporting information, all of that is just meaningless. That on top of the fact that he's bringing haste samba+saber dance into it. You can't solo with that, you have absolutely no way to heal, because waltzes are disabled with Saber up. Killing stuff with a WHM curing you does not count. The automaton is part of the job, a pocket WHM is not. If you're going to say something like "If you do the math," then you need to SHOW the math.


puppetless puppetmasterSince no one said anything about going puppetless, this is just laughable. It makes about as much sense as going DD mode dancer without support.

(look, I really don't want to upset other people. I highly suggest taking this to a new thread if you are inclined to show me how wrong you think I am.)

[Moink]

As a DNC with an 85 Twashtar... Off handing a 2-4 hit trial dagger for giggles that:

1) TP is hardly an issue even when fighting an IT++ Mob

2) Pouring out the damage is hardly the issue either when storing TP to 300 Using climactic > Rudra (2-3k out of Abyssea usually) > No Foot Rise > Reverse Flourish > Rudra (1-2k usually) > Darkness (1-3k usually the difference being the Skill chain bonus that DNC has naturally)

3) For PUP to do the same I don't see that nearly as possible but I wont say that it isn't. If one PUP can I would love to hear a good repeatable strategy for GoV solo fights =)

[Greatguardian]

He is giving no equations or actual math. Just "50% this" and "50% that." Without the supporting information, all of that is just meaningless. That on top of the fact that he's bringing haste samba+saber dance into it. You can't solo with that, you have absolutely no way to heal, because waltzes are disabled with Saber up. Killing stuff with a WHM curing you does not count. The automaton is part of the job, a pocket WHM is not. If you're going to say something like "If you do the math," then you need to SHOW the math.

Since no one said anything about going puppetless, this is just laughable. It makes about as much sense as going DD mode dancer without support.

(look, I really don't want to upset other people. I highly suggest taking this to a new thread if you are inclined to show me how wrong you think I am.)

Asking Byrth to show the math is like asking a Calculator to show the math. I'm sure he can, in fact I'm sure he will if he feels that this pointless bickering is worth his time. I just think it's hilarious that you're calling out one of the most respected mathematicians in FFXI on showing his work.

It's also a lot easier to do math comparing a Dancer to a Master, and then determine how much damage the Puppet needs to do in order to bridge the gap between the two. That is exactly what he's doing. You're also severely underestimating both jobs if you think Dancer needs constant healing 24/7 in order to solo. They are very capable of using Saber Dance offensively while staying alive without support on most things. It's not like it's impossible to switch to Fan Dance when necessary and swap right back to Saber Dance when it's safe.

[Moink]

He is giving no equations or actual math. Just "50% this" and "50% that." Without the supporting information, all of that is just meaningless. That on top of the fact that he's bringing haste samba+saber dance into it. You can't solo with that, you have absolutely no way to heal, because waltzes are disabled with Saber up. Killing stuff with a WHM curing you does not count. The automaton is part of the job, a pocket WHM is not. If you're going to say something like "If you do the math," then you need to SHOW the math.

Since no one said anything about going puppetless, this is just laughable. It makes about as much sense as going DD mode dancer without support.

(look, I really don't want to upset other people. I highly suggest taking this to a new thread if you are inclined to show me how wrong you think I am.)

If a heal was required and I had Saber Dance up... I would simply just disable it and wait for the timer to come reuse it if needed. Healing as a DNC isn't an issue... ever

[Alhanelem]

I just think it's hilarious that you're calling out one of the most respected mathematicians in FFXI on showing his work.I just think it's hilarious that you're expecting me to assume something someone says is true purely because they have a certain reputaiton (Which, he doesn't have this reputation in my view as he hasn't specifically demonstrated it to me, in front of me.)

I'm sorry. But
1) even the best mathmeticians can make mistakes, and
2) even the best mathemeticians show their work, and
3) at best, even the most perfect math only approximates what will actually happen in the game.
Even if you're a math professor at a university, I'm going to ask for you to show your work.


You're also severely underestimating both jobs if you think Dancer needs constant healing 24/7 in order to solo.Didn't say that at all. But it is going to need some healing, which means, at a minimum, that you have to take off saber dance for a period of time, use drain samba, or some other method of recovering HP. Saber dance and fan dance both have recast timers. You can't just jump back and forth on the fly without having to wait for the other one to become available again.


Healing as a DNC isn't an issue... ever Of course it's not. That isn't the issue in question. The issue in question is damage- and you have to give some of that up in order to heal yourself. PUP has to make the same kind of sacrifice, even. You can't just look at DNC in full on DD mode and compare it to a PUP that *isn't* in full-on DD mode.

(If you wanted to do that though, the automaton is certainly capable of filling the alleged 50% disparity being pulled out of nowhere)

[Byrth]

I didn't want to post math because most people on this board don't actually understand how the game works. For instance, Skill + STR/2 = Attack. Dancer and PUP start at the same skill level and Dancer has more STR than PUP, so Dancer has higher attack before considering gear.

If you think of a potential STR/Atk Kila +3 offhand, I think it's safe to say that Dancer has at least as much attack as PUP and likely about the same STR. PUP gets more STR on their AF3+2 than Dancer does, but Dancer starts higher and gets 10 from their offhand. If DNC doesn't want to offhand a STR/Atk Kila +3, it's because something else is more beneficial to them. That's flexibility that the PUP doesn't have.


Verth is D35/+51 Delay and PUP starts with 340 delay, but they have PUP pants +2 which are -10 delay. They have 376 base H2H skill, 16 from merits, 5 from AF3+2 head, and 7 from Faith Torque. This gives them 47 base H2H damage.
(35+47)/(340+51-10) = 82/381
Assuming Epona's, Atheling, Twilight, AF3+2 head, and Brutal, PUP/WAR is looking at 3% TA and 26% DA, or 1.312 attacks per fist. If they have 25% Haste, then they're only swinging with 75% of their delay. People say it's 60 delay per second. It isn't quite, but we'll use it. Also, there are 2 fists.
60*2*1.312*(82+fSTR)/(381*.75) = PUP DPS

Dancer with Twashtar/Kila +3, 25% haste in gear, AF3+2 body/neck/Suppa, Atheling/Twilight/Epona's/Brutal/Saber Dance, and Haste Samba has:
3% TA and 34.5% DA: 1.395 attacks per dagger
30%+5%+10%+3% = 48% Dual Wield
25%+10% = 35% Haste
60*1.395*(45+fSTR + 48+fSTR)/(366*.65*.52) = DNC DPS

@fSTR=0 :
PUP DPS = 45.2
DNC DPS = 62.9
DNC divided by PUP = 1.4

@fSTR=4 :
PUP DPS = 47.4
DNC DPS = 68.3
DNC divided by PUP = 1.44

@capped fSTR= (12 for PUP and 13 for DNC)
PUP DPS = 51.8
DNC DPS = 80.5
80.5/51.8
DNC divided by PUP = 1.55


PUP has an effective delay of 190, or 5.2 TP/hit. They hit 1.312 times per fist, and swing a fist every 142.5 delay. 60 Delay per second.
60*5.2*1.312/142.5 = 2.87 TP/second before STP

DNC effectively has 95 delay per hand with this setup, meaning they hit for a base of 4.2 TP/hit. They hit 1.395 times per swing, and swing once every 62 delay. Again, 60 delay per second.
60*4.2*1.395/62 = 5.67 TP/second before STP

DNC TP Gain / PUP TP Gain = 1.97

In the worst case scenario, Steps and Reverse Flourish don't help Dancer and they shouldn't use them. In that situation, the Automaton would have to provide benefit equal to 40-55% of an Auto-less PUP's melee damage and 97% of an Auto-less PUP's WS damage.

Looking back over this, I notice I neglected Verth's 15 STR and critical hits in general. Whatever, PUP has the first and Dancer likely has more of the second (along with crit bonus). Accuracy is kind of a non-issue, because the two jobs are roughly equivalent. PUP gets a ton of Acc on their AF3+2, but Dancer gets traits and Closed Position (50 Acc). Dancer gets about 10 more STP in their ideal TP set, if you're wondering, so they actually get TP more than twice as fast as PUPs.

[Moink]

Of course it's not. That isn't the issue in question. The issue in question is damage- and you have to give some of that up in order to heal yourself. PUP has to make the same kind of sacrifice, even. You can't just look at DNC in full on DD mode and compare it to a PUP that *isn't* in full-on DD mode.

(If you wanted to do that though, the automaton is certainly capable of filling the alleged 50% disparity being pulled out of nowhere)

What you're calling a sacrifice for DNC or I hardly see as one. It is TP used but the time it took to build that TP is nilch and if I even needed to or wanted to use a WS first before healing myself some HP i would.

[Alhanelem]

I appriciate you coming forward with the numbers, and that's a good start.

Dancer gets about 10 more STP in their ideal TP set, if you're wondering, so they actually get TP more than twice as fast as PUPs.You also need to consider the automaton's TP; even the WHM head auto can produce some, and the master can leverage that TP (which could be construed as part of the automaton's contribution to damage). The automaton's cures do not come from TP, I also don't see anything about weapon skills in there. Victory Smite is basically ideal on the PUP side and I presume Evisceration on DNC (I don't know much about Rudra but I'm pretty sure Evisceration is better?).

However, as you mentioned, this is a complicated situation, and it's further complicated by what exactly you're fighting. Your numbers do not include weapon skills, nor the impact of the TP a DNC might need to spend to stay alive. It would be hard to estimate the impact of survivability on each job's performance, however. This is where the strengths and weaknesses of each job really come into play. I'm not rock solid with the math, so maybe you can figure out a way to objectively estimate this.

Basically, you estimated the disparity the automaton needs to fill, but you didn't cover how well you think it can do that (in a vaccum where both the DNC and PUP are outputting maximum damage without regard for solo capacity)

[Byrth]

If you sub NIN on either job, you lose Berserk (which isn't something we accounted for) and never really have a reason to take damage. In that case, you could use a DD Puppet and we don't have to account for healing. You also lose 10% DA on PUP though, and DNC loses no DA.

On DNC, which WS you want to use is pretty situational. Dancing Edge does the best damage outside Abyssea, but Evisceration and Rudra's makes darkness. Also, I've heard Stringing Pummel is generally better for PUP unless you're going to self-skillchain with Tactical Switch.

[Alhanelem]

It's a bit much to assume that just because you're subbing NIN, you're never going to take damage. Even if you are absolutely perfect with your utsusemi skills, depending on what you're fighting there are things that are going to hit you.

and DNC loses no DA. ??? That's only if you assume they wouldn't have subbed WAR in the first place (which they wouldn't). If both jobs subbed war and switched to NIN, both jobs would lose 10% DA.

Are you also considering the fact that Saber Dance loses effectiveness over time? Even if you fully merit it, there is some loss.


Also, I've heard Stringing Pummel is generally better for PUP unless you're going to self-skillchain with Tactical SwitchI have also heard people say this, but in practice, my Pummels never touch my Smites. Maybe the crit damage is different on each of them or something, but I do not use Pummel anymore

[Byrth]

Well, there are very few things in the game that make me drop Saber Dance if I'm /NIN. You can see the fountain of TP that makes up the DNC job, so 45 TP for a Waltz III every 5 minutes isn't going to matter that much to me.

Saber Dance overwrites /WAR's Double Attack trait for some reason. I am considering that it loses effectiveness. 21.5% DA is for 1/5 Saber Dance merits.

[Alhanelem]

Saber Dance overwrites /WAR's Double Attack trait for some reason. I did not know that. o.O

Do you also lose the effectiveness of Brutal Earring or anything else with +DA?

[Byrth]

Nope, for some reason it just replaces trait DA. I think I linked my testing on all the wikis.

[Alhanelem]

Would love to see a PUP solo iron giants in abyssea. Would just like to say I took this challenege. Ironclad Executioner, First attempt, no real evasion kit by the way, died at 2% to an untimely incinerator. =\ I just picked one and stared attacking it by the way- no real preperation.

PUP can certainly do it, if you handle yourself smarter than I did for that one fight.

[Malamasala]

The stupidity in this thread is just so amazing.

We actually have plenty of SMNs in here that says no to Cure V. Meanwhile SCH and RDM scream for it, but hey, we SMNs know how to play support jobs. And PUP needed the update because their automaton didn't cast cures. Light Spirit not casting cures is just "working as intended", because which healer in this game should heal?

I accept people having opinions about how dark spirit or ice spirit updates wouldn't do much. Because 600 damage every 20 seconds or 1200 every 45 isn't a world of a difference. And that is assuming SE did the correct spell timer adjustments, there is plenty of room to fail there. This all I can understand.

But dissing Light Spirit adjustments? Really? And you are subbing mage jobs to heal people?

I do not think I'm able to comprehend such ways of thinking. Choosing bad over good because you like bad better?

[Mizuharu]

The stupidity in this thread is just so amazing.

We actually have plenty of SMNs in here that says no to Cure V. Meanwhile SCH and RDM scream for it, but hey, we SMNs know how to play support jobs. And PUP needed the update because their automaton didn't cast cures. Light Spirit not casting cures is just "working as intended", because which healer in this game should heal?

I accept people having opinions about how dark spirit or ice spirit updates wouldn't do much. Because 600 damage every 20 seconds or 1200 every 45 isn't a world of a difference. And that is assuming SE did the correct spell timer adjustments, there is plenty of room to fail there. This all I can understand.

But dissing Light Spirit adjustments? Really? And you are subbing mage jobs to heal people?

I do not think I'm able to comprehend such ways of thinking. Choosing bad over good because you like bad better?

LightSpirit isn't necessarily a SMN's only choice for healing a party. The automaton is for PUP. I wouldn't mind the AI of LightSpirit tweaked a bit, but your OP made it sound like SMN should be getting this patch over PUP.

[Soranika]

One could say it was stupid for automatons to behave like SMN's spirits to begin with. In essence, all our elemental spirits are nothing more than usable, yet uncontrollable, elementals that we already encounter during weather effects.

Elemental spirits to SMN DO NOT mean the same thing as Automaton mean to PUP, nor are they as important to SMN. If emphasis is put on using elemental spirits instead of getting a much needed adjustments to avatar blood pacts, I'm gonna completely give it up.

If I'm main healing on SMN (which I don't anymore), I'd much rather use carbuncle with avatar favor enabled and be forced to rely on the randomness light spirits. Or... you know.... just switch to WHM.

[Spiritreaver]

I was reading about how it seemed like you were fixing everything with PUP in a single update and thought it sounded very wonderful. I could however not avoid noticing how a lot of the changes are stuff that are very closely connected to SMN.

Do you have similar plans for Summoner? (I know you supposedly have surveyed us about ward improvements, but it would be nice to know how much you intend on fixing, seeing as you are fixing everything on PUP)




Like are you going to fix Titan's favor to give damage reduction instead of defense, just how you changed the Armor Plating attachments effects?

Are you going to raise the amount of damage reduction on Nocturnal Shield?

Are you going to increase the priority of sleepga from Shiva since it is 1.5 min (sleepga 2) duration, and yet you can't overwrite sleepga 1 (1 min duration)?

Are you going to split up and improve healing AI for Light Spirit?

Are you going to add new spells to Spirits? (Since apparently it is still only Light Spirit getting new nukes and nothing else)


I'm quite envious at the amount of "fixes" going towards PUP right now. I've always said "fixes" are the only thing SMN needs, and yet all we get is new content. Never do we seem to get adjustments that make our old abilities useful.

Do to wards what you did to attachments, and do to spirits what you did to frames, and I believe you might have rejuvenated SMN into a brand new job.


The point is that they share the same code and same problems. Sharing the solution seems logical.

Think like this. You got a math problem saying 3 + 5 = ?. Next math problem is 5 + 3 = ?.

That is your automaton and spirit code. Very similar, but not exactly the same. SE just solved 3 + 5 = 8. I suggest they solve 5 + 3 = ? while they worked out the solution to 3 + 5.


It is only logical and easy. I don't claim that it is right or deserved.

Yet another comparison. Your son is mowing the lawn. He seems to finish very fast so you ask him if he really did cut all of it. His reply is "I only did half, because it needed it more than the other half".

Again, it would have been easiest to just mow the whole lawn at once. Splitting it up so you mow half on tuesdays and half on fridays will just make it more annoying to do.


As you see, no denying PUP needs it more. Just saying that they could as well finish all AI adjustments in the same batch.


You have to view spirits like avatar's favor. It does in no way enhance your BP:Rage spam and damage output, but it opens up new ways to support an alliance.

A functional Light Spirit would allow you to at dire situations call it out and basically add a WHM to the alliance. Bringing a WHM might have been overkill to start with, but bad luck made it a necessity. SMN simply covered it. (Or PUP, if you wanted to use that as a backup WHM solution).

A functional Light Spirit also allows you to change sub. If you can cure yourself, you can sub for example SAM and meditate TP to fill in WS triggers in VW. Or you can trigger NMs in Abyssea. Or you can simply refill MP with Myrkr if you happen to have that. I tend to sub WHM for cure IV. If I had Cure V from a trusty Light Spirit, I'd sub SCH to help nuke trigger on VW.

Other spirits have much less use. A split casting timer update like for PUP would allow them to be used as debuffers and DoTers, instead of Avatar spike damage. An obvious use would be triggers of course. But else it is mainly to avoid amnesia on an avatar, while making yourself vulnerable to silence on a spirit.

Another way to view spirits and avatars, are that avatars are for bosses and spirits are for normal mobs. After all, if a monster dies in 10 seconds, then a spirit casting nukes every 20 seconds is better than an avatar who does BPs every 45 seconds. Spirits are not meant to replace Avatars, just fill in those gaps the job has where you are just standing there watching all the BLMs, WARs etc kill monster after monster while your BP timer is ticking down.

(Best would be if spirits had -ga magic, but I doubt that would ever happen)



Maybe you were interested in an answer to your questions?


The stupidity in this thread is just so amazing.

We actually have plenty of SMNs in here that says no to Cure V. Meanwhile SCH and RDM scream for it, but hey, we SMNs know how to play support jobs. And PUP needed the update because their automaton didn't cast cures. Light Spirit not casting cures is just "working as intended", because which healer in this game should heal?

I accept people having opinions about how dark spirit or ice spirit updates wouldn't do much. Because 600 damage every 20 seconds or 1200 every 45 isn't a world of a difference. And that is assuming SE did the correct spell timer adjustments, there is plenty of room to fail there. This all I can understand.

But dissing Light Spirit adjustments? Really? And you are subbing mage jobs to heal people?

I do not think I'm able to comprehend such ways of thinking. Choosing bad over good because you like bad better?

I didn't have to quote everyone of your posts in this thread mellowy, but i figured what the hell. I've bolded just one word out the whole morass, envious. Its the only really important word you've typed this entire thread imo.

All of that justifying, rationalizing, speechifying, and ultimately in the end it all comes down to the same old trite mellowy obsession.

That said, i'm not gonna go on further about why you should not be surprised this thread is going the way its going. What am gonna do is share with you a pic of who it is you remind me of mellowy. Sorry in advance but yes, my Trekkie geek-flag is being unfurled. Here's the pic and a brief bit about who it is and why it comes to mind when watching you go on here and on Alla.

http://images.wikia.com/memoryalpha/en/images/0/08/Winn_adami.jpg
Kai Winn Adami (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Winn_Adami)

That is a pic of Winn Adami(eventually Kai Winn Adami, essentially the same as the Catholic Pope). She always used to pop up on the show and cause mischief under the banner of "everything i do is for the ppl in the name of the gods.."-blah blah blah. Of course this was only half of the truth.

The other half of the truth was that most of the crap she pulled was for her own selfish reasons. Chief among those reasons was the envy she felt towards another character on the show who was closer to her gods than she would ever be. In the end her envy got her burned alive.

Not a big surprise of course. Most times the villains in our stories and fables always convince themselves that their petty reasons have some some higher purpose that somehow negates any wrong done by the villain. And they keep on denying any harm they are doing until it blows up in their faces.

And no, not calling you a villain of course. FFXI is just a game after all. But this current thread of yours just snapped my take on this quest of yours into focus after all this time.

Me just having bust out the DS9 DVDs might have helped too tho...

[Alhanelem]

Oooh, now we're bringing Star Trek into it... :P

Personally, I preferred Voyager over DS9.
[/offtopic]

[Razushu]

Oooh, now we're bringing Star Trek into it... :P

Personally, I preferred Voyager over DS9.
[/offtopic]

/nerd on

DS9 was far superior to Voyager.

/nerd off

[Greatguardian]

/nerd on

DS9 was far superior to Voyager.

/nerd off

Gene Roddenberry would've hated both shows. /nerd.

[Alhanelem]

Gene Roddenberry would've hated both shows. /nerd.
/nerd I'm not sure about that. Maybe, but at least Voyager was still about exploring space, while DS9 was rooted in the area around the space station. I guess most people liked the greater amount of continuity between episdes in DS9, but I thought it was boring once the Dominion war started and the entire show was mostly about that with very few "fun" episodes (e.g. the one about baseball)

[Greatguardian]

/nerd I'm not sure about that. Maybe, but at least Voyager was still about exploring space, while DS9 was rooted in the area around the space station. I guess most people liked the greater amount of continuity between episdes in DS9, but I thought it was boring once the Dominion war started and the entire show was mostly about that with very few "fun" episodes (e.g. the one about baseball)

Roddenberry very openly critiqued DS9, he never liked it. In general, he disliked delving into interpersonal relations and space operas on Star Trek. If you look at TOS and TNG, the tone is very different. Personal drama exists, but it is not the core of the show. Star Trek, at its roots, is a socialist utopian vision. It is about what man could be, and how man could deal with the problems of their world and their time. Each of Star Trek's primary races represent some negative facet of humanity, exaggerated for effect. Klingons represent aggression, Ferengi correspond to greed, Romulans signify secrecy and non-transparency. Even the Cardassians, who were added later, were a harsh warning against rampant nationalism and militarization.

Scifi is a vehicle for social and political commentary. Roddenberry was sending a very clear message with his original shows. That message was "put on the backburner" for later iterations of the series, which chose to address different issues or, in the case of DS9, didn't really choose to address many issues at all. It's not that he didn't think they might be entertaining or fun to watch (I still enjoyed them), but he felt that his dream and his message were being sold out in the name of entertainment.

[Glamdring]

OK, Cure 5 answered, the answer is NO. See the reply in the scholar thread. And btw, I'd kick any smn from my pt who used a spirit for any reason other than ele siphon. if you want to cure me break out Levi or Carby, you were "hired" for your damage output-if you want to heal too /whm and break out cure 4.

True story (I've mentioned it before). Saw a smn pause over what I presume was an LS mate that was K.O.'d. he summoned a light spirit because it supposedly can raise. After about 10 minutes the corpse's timer ran out and he repopped at HP. He came back out and both he and the SMN stood there and /shouted belittling insults at the light spirit for like 5 minutes. 1 of the top 5 funniest moments I've ever seen in game... (I would have helpped, but they said it was an experiment/proving a point).

[Alhanelem]

Anyone who claims light spirit can raise is an idiot. Light spirit can not and was never able to cast it. This rumor was perpetuated by someone editing the page on various wikis stating that it could.

[Leonlionheart]

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/4790/trainderail3.jpg

[Seiowan]

OK, Cure 5 answered, the answer is NO. See the reply in the scholar thread. And btw, I'd kick any smn from my pt who used a spirit for any reason other than ele siphon. if you want to cure me break out Levi or Carby, you were "hired" for your damage output-if you want to heal too /whm and break out cure 4.
Is this a bad time to mention that spirits can proc NMs in Abyssea if you're lacking a Black Mage? There ARE reasons why you'd use a spirit at times, so it's a lousy reason to kick someone from a party. It's also possible to get a newly summoned Light Spirit to cast Curaga IV on the party with decent gear and skill.

That said, they aren't the most useful tools outside of Elemental Siphon. That's why, if anything, I'd like to see SE making them useful so that people have more reason to use them. Considering their hefty costs, they SHOULD be worth using. They cost more to upkeep than an avatar!

I'd personally advocate allowing the use of Blood Pact Rage to pick which spells you want the spirit to cast. That would at least make them suck considerably less, even though their nuking power still has a lot to be desired.

[Alhanelem]

Is this a bad time to mention that spirits can proc NMs in Abyssea if you're lacking a Black Mage? Good luck getting them to cast with the right timing. It's hardly even worth trying except as a desperation move because you can't control when it casts.


That's why, if anything, I'd like to see SE making them useful so that people have more reason to use them.Until gimmick uses were added later, Spirits entirely existed to pad the summoner's spell list (And give players without the Zilart expansion some summons besides carbuncle). They only have special purpose uses with good reason- they should not be stealing thunder from the avatars. If they did better damage, you'd use them over the avatars. If they buffed/debuffed better, you'd use them over the avatars. The avatars are supposed to be powerful beings. Why would a generic elemental spirit ever be stronger? TL;DR: Spirits are fine for their current uses.

[Greatguardian]

Summon a physical manifestation of the gods of Vana'diel?

Summon an elemental construct?

I wonder which of these is meant to be more powerful.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Well, degraded manifestation, since it still gets its ass kicked by a crab.

Just not as badly as the elemental construct does.

[Atomic_Skull]

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/8628/foreveralonesummoner.png

I couldn't help myself.

[Greatguardian]

You're my hero.

[Soranika]

You'd have better luck proc with spirits in Voidwatch than you would in Abyssea... just saying from experience. Spirits aren't without their uses, just limited in what they can be used for. That doesn't warrant a complete reworking of them though. Not over avatars.

[Malamasala]

Elemental spirits to SMN DO NOT mean the same thing as Automaton mean to PUP, nor are they as important to SMN. If emphasis is put on using elemental spirits instead of getting a much needed adjustments to avatar blood pacts, I'm gonna completely give it up.

Yes they do. Lets say you went into abyssea and want to get azure. Are you going to use Heavenly Strike to build azure? No, because even though it works as elemental damage, it does not serve the same purpose as a BLM puppet. What does serve as the same purpose is elemental spirits.

And what really does blood pacts need that you think the game will be unplayable without? More damage? Because I can't think of anything else we lack on BP:Rage. And sitting there saying "The game is better if I do 900 than 800 damage, but completely trash if I can heal for 700 instead of 400."

Honestly, I see other SMNs rant on and on about "Need better avatars!" and I just don't see the need. And it is a no brainer that at 99 some new DD pacts will arrive, and if your requested update is 100% guaranteed to happen regardless of what happens to spirits, why are you complaining? Do you honestly think fixed spirits would mean all 19 jobs get merit category 3, except SMN which they had no time to add it for?


If I'm main healing on SMN (which I don't anymore), I'd much rather use carbuncle with avatar favor enabled and be forced to rely on the randomness light spirits. Or... you know.... just switch to WHM.

But you know what. If you think Blood Pacts are so bad now, why do you not change job to something that you do not think perform badly? Like WAR?

Or do we only play the job swap arguments against spirits, while we can't do them against your desired updates?


What am gonna do is share with you a pic of who it is you remind me of mellowy.

I'm terribly offended. I'm more like Rodney in SG Atlantis. Brilliant and whining. Selfish? Well of course, you can't be a genius unless you are selfish. Arrogance also helps. All the traits of a master mind. (Evil or good)


If they did better damage, you'd use them over the avatars. If they buffed/debuffed better, you'd use them over the avatars. The avatars are supposed to be powerful beings. Why would a generic elemental spirit ever be stronger?

Now the tricky part. What if spirits did better DoT, but worse spike damage. If they did better debuffs, but worse buffs? Suddenly you have the choice between DoT + debuffs or Spike + buffs. Two ways to play. That is like Light arts and Dark arts for SCH.

Or perhaps you want to claim that SCH is a failure and people only use one of the arts because it is better than the other art? Like all SCH use dark only, because light arts is useless?

If all you think SMN is about is damage, then it is easy to think spirits would steal the thunder. But if you view SMN as a jack of all trades with physical, magical, spike, DoT, debuffs and buffs, you'd see the opportunities with spirits.


That doesn't warrant a complete reworking of them though. Not over avatars.

It is not rework though, it is reusing PUP code. Saying it is like reworking them, is like saying VW2 is a rework of VW1, because it is completely different monsters and completely different drops.

Heck, if SE had any programming sense to begin with, the fellowship NPC, automaton and spirit would have used the same AI module and these changes would have effected them all three. Spaghetti coding is currently the reason why they haven't fixed Spirits.

If only they could hire a real programmer at Square Enix. It seems like they have nobody left.

[Soranika]

LOL there's no possible way I can justify humoring myself to respond anymore.

Elemental spirits =/= Automatons, that's it. End of story. Please move on now.

[Alhanelem]

Elemental spirits =/= AutomatonsCan't argue that, though it would be a little less inaccurate to say spirits are the harlequin frame of PUP, in terms of usage amount. :p

[Soranika]

xD I was speaking in general. Here's no reasons to hold any reasonable expectations of elemental spirits in comparison any Automaton. Would do better comparing them that of charmed pets of BST. I would never fully expect anything to happen to spirits until BST charm was made usable again to actually do what it's suppose to and control them like they would jug pets... or else I shall forever call BST jugmasters.

[Malamasala]

Can't argue that, though it would be a little less inaccurate to say spirits are the harlequin frame of PUP, in terms of usage amount. :p

Even more accurate to say casting AI == casting AI, which covers monsters, automatons, spirits, npc fellows. I thought people were smart enough to see that was what I was referring to, but around here you have to say exactly what you mean or people won't understand.

Unless you want to claim casting spells on a timer is different from casting spells on a timer. Be my guest.

[Soranika]

And one would say that's stupid and they need to split AI instead of using the same one that you base your ridiculous argument on.

[Spiritreaver]

Even more accurate to say casting AI == casting AI, which covers monsters, automatons, spirits, npc fellows. I thought people were smart enough to see that was what I was referring to, but around here you have to say exactly what you mean or people won't understand.

Unless you want to claim casting spells on a timer is different from casting spells on a timer. Be my guest.

In addition to SE essentially just copying automaton behavior to spirits, wouldn't SMN have to be given some sort of JA to control them like a PUP has? I mean if you want spirits to be SMN's version of an automaton you might as well go all out right?

That established, could you give us a quick demo of how these new JA's are gonna work? Will they be the same for all 8 spirits? Will Astral Flow have any bearing on these new JA? If so, what? Will the new JA's for the spirits be compatible with avatars?

Of course i may have gone ahead a bit much there.

You might not have given thought to how spirits would be controlled after they get automaton behavior. And they would have to be controlled, you must agree to that? Because without some dynamic way of fine-tuning the AI on the fly, what's the point? Automatons are worthless without guidance.....

Could go on, but really why bother? What you are asking for is PUP. Only not the PUP we have ingame atm. You want pets with customizable AI being one of the main draws. Along with the hate free and disposable nature that current spirits have-or at least that's how it seems.

I would suggest you trying out PUP as it is now, but i remember now you said that was too much work on your part. Funny and sad that you think a small part of SMN should be retooled just because you are too lazy to lvl the job that seems closest to what you want ingame.

[Leonlionheart]

I would suggest you trying out PUP as it is now, but i remember now you said that was too much work on your part. Funny and sad that you think a small part of SMN should be retooled just because you are too lazy to lvl the job that seems closest to what you want ingame.

thisthisthisthis