No taxation without representation.

[Edyth]

When, in the course of Vana'dielian events, the developers begin considering imposing taxes on us without our consent:

Source:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/7450-Port-Jeuno-congestion...?p=217834#post217834

we need to speak up as a community. No taxation without representation. So, community members, do we want the taxes back, amidst the inflation that has gone on, where a Quake scroll that was once 3K is now 300K, and an outdated spell known as Raise III, which does not benefit the purchaser, is now 1 million gil?

I say NO. Taxes should be taken out of this game completely, unless it's what players want. Taxes do not create harmony, especially when the taxed money goes into a black hole, and not to any cause at all.

[Haldarn]

Perhaps all the tax money can be added to the Mog Bonanza gil prize for your server.

[MDenham]

2/10, would not recommend to anyone because the post was replaced with a bobcat.

[Zarchery]

*groan*

It's just a video game.

[Sparthos]

We'll dump that Jeunoan tea into the sea.

[Soranika]

...wtf. I do NOT want the Tea Party invading Vana'diel. There is no use of "taxes" for any political affiliation in the game. It's just a gil sink and deterrent from afk over-crowding of bazaars. There's still the auction house or... I dunno... moving to another area to avoid your wares being subjected to tax.

As for the inflation... wtf does taxing has to do with that? As new content arises and need for stuff forgotten increases as well as demand for the job that uses them, what do you think will happen?

[Greatguardian]

Taxes in Vana'Diel are more necessary now than ever. The Cruor system causes inflation. Taxes reduce inflation.

[Mirage]

To OP:

While taxes do indeed go into a black hole, it does still serve a purpose. Because you can generate retarded amounts of gil out of absolutely nothing by selling gear to NPCs, inflation would run completely wild if there wasn't a black hole to dump at least a bit of this gil into. It is however not just bazaar tax that can performs this function.

[Mystaticromance]

Go ahead, implement the tax system again in Jueno...I miss Rolanmart.

[Atomic_Skull]

Go ahead, implement the tax system again in Jueno...I miss Rolanmart.

This. Just leave the AH alone.

[Wolfandre]

...wtf. I do NOT want the Tea Party invading Vana'diel.

Please tell me you knew this was an actual event in American history BEFORE the name was stolen for a buncha right-wing hee-haws....


Please?

[Soranika]

Please tell me you knew this was an actual event in American history BEFORE the name was stolen for a buncha right-wing hee-haws....


Please?
No, I'm an ignorant American without even the most basic grade school knowledge of my own country's history....
Yes I know. And yes, I also know that those people have all but near changed the definition of what the tea party is and stood for. And personally I cringe when I hear stuff like this now.... my rl profession currently is preparing personal tax returns during the tax season.

[cidbahamut]

Taxes are awesome.

[SpankWustler]

I spent some time typing up a really lame joke in a really lame Yakov Smirnoff accent, then I deleted it because I had a revelation and realized it was lame. Plus, I can't tell if the topic itself is a joke or not.

Taxes and fees in in Final Fantasy XI do not serve the same purpose as taxes and fees in real life. They are there to combat inflation or control the number of bazaars in a zone.

[Morier]

The price of scrolls being super inflated isn't anyone's fault except the lazy players. If they wouldn't pay the dumb prices then people wouldn't sell at dumb prices. Pointless op.

[Reiterpallasch]

Jeuno should use the taxes to fix the roads in Upper Jeuno. To this day I still get stuck on that damn bump in the ground.

[Insaniac]

Taxes hurt job creators.

[Zagen]

Go ahead, implement the tax system again in Jueno...I miss Rolanmart.

Haha rolanmart never went away on Bismarck even after they lifted taxes in Jueno.

[MDenham]

Taxes hurt job creators.We really, really do not need them to add Time Mage and Artist to the game.

[Wolfandre]

No, I'm an ignorant American without even the most basic grade school knowledge of my own country's history....
Yes I know. And yes, I also know that those people have all but near changed the definition of what the tea party is and stood for. And personally I cringe when I hear stuff like this now.... my rl profession currently is preparing personal tax returns during the tax season.

Sorry for coming off so harsh; didn't mean it like that. Thanks for affirming that :D. I agree, they have changed the meaning of the term...but let's not talk politics.

On topic: There really isn't much they can do to allieviate the congestion problem. Taking the AH out and forcing taxes again will just force people into Ru'Lude. Doing the same to Ru'Lude will stem player growth by not giving us a hub where everything they need is. Either do something to make congestion less of an issue *coughps2cough*, or give people a reason to populate other zones EQUALLY.

The /yell feature was what FFXI had been missing for a while, despite me not wanting it personally. The limitations placed on it, however, make it less attractive. On Asura, we STILL have schmucks camping in Port Jeuno, spamming in shout, then /yelling the same thing every minute.

I also agree on taxes, but only a little. Taxes will make people go, but the money sink seems silly to me. I know, I know, inflation, blah blah blah. Make that gil go somewhere, and do something that doesn't directly affect the game. Make some sort of grand reward server-wide every once in a while that depends 100% on the sales tax taken from each bazaar.

I dunno.

[Soranika]

Taxes hurt job creators.

We really, really do not need them to add Time Mage and Artist to the game.
My stomach. D: It hurts. Can't stop laughing.



Sorry for coming off so harsh; didn't mean it like that. Thanks for affirming that :D. I agree, they have changed the meaning of the term...but let's not talk politics.

On topic: There really isn't much they can do to allieviate the congestion problem. Taking the AH out and forcing taxes again will just force people into Ru'Lude. Doing the same to Ru'Lude will stem player growth by not giving us a hub where everything they need is. Either do something to make congestion less of an issue *coughps2cough*, or give people a reason to populate other zones EQUALLY.

The /yell feature was what FFXI had been missing for a while, despite me not wanting it personally. The limitations placed on it, however, make it less attractive. On Asura, we STILL have schmucks camping in Port Jeuno, spamming in shout, then /yelling the same thing every minute.

I also agree on taxes, but only a little. Taxes will make people go, but the money sink seems silly to me. I know, I know, inflation, blah blah blah. Make that gil go somewhere, and do something that doesn't directly affect the game. Make some sort of grand reward server-wide every once in a while that depends 100% on the sales tax taken from each bazaar.

I dunno.
There's means to spread out in jeuno with /yell... but it was poorly executed because SE had this brilliant ideal to have it automatically filtered. There's still a LARGE amount of players who never bother to visit the official site or forums for update detail so they didn't know how to use the yell feature and now don't know that it's not filtered anymore. I still see people shouting & yelling for stuff when it's not necessary.

There should be a way to /yell across all all cities. It's proven it can be done since the name plus location of yell is there. I believe that would be a better way of dealing with congestion and also repopulate home nations and not just jeuno or whitegate.

Though... /yell suffers from a delay in which you can't do it as often as shouting. I guess that's a reason it's not very popular.

[Daniel]

This was probably already mentioned, but you fight inflation through taxation, as inflation is caused by an increase of money in the economy.

[Seriha]

The price of scrolls being super inflated isn't anyone's fault except the lazy players. If they wouldn't pay the dumb prices then people wouldn't sell at dumb prices. Pointless op.

Not quite. Yes, it takes one or two impatient people to ruin things for everyone, but it's not just about the consumer end, but the production of certain resources. The newer spells are pricey because they're not readily available, nor do they offer a soft cap like other ones had with NPC vendors. Some think this is a good thing, but unlike gear, a mage can't sell their scroll back once done with it. Comparatively, a melee class doesn't need a Scroll of Fell Cleave or Impetus to learn a WS or JA. Ultimately, things boil down to dumb luck more than legitimate work at the moment, and if WoE is dying down in popularity, scroll supplies aren't going to get much better with seals being finite and VW not very casual/PUG friendly.

Plus older scrolls like Raise III, Utsu: Ni, and so on also face an issue of limited supply for no other reason than SE wanted them to be rare. Again, mages are what they are in part through their spells. Save the rare crap for equipment.



Overall, I'm rather stymied by these "ideas" to alleviate congestion in Port Jeuno. Contrary to the opinions of some, not everyone's swimming in gil. Thus, sellers will likely raise their costs to cover taxes munched under current prices. Meanwhile, SE needs to take a better look at why PJ is so popular to begin with and replicate those features elsewhere. More simplistic travel to Jeuno would be a start, as would the presence of Magian Moogles in the starter cities. Stretching /yell to all city zones would also help in forming groups.

[Soranika]

Not quite. Yes, it takes one or two impatient people to ruin things for everyone, but it's not just about the consumer end, but the production of certain resources. The newer spells are pricey because they're not readily available, nor do they offer a soft cap like other ones had with NPC vendors. Some think this is a good thing, but unlike gear, a mage can't sell their scroll back once done with it. Comparatively, a melee class doesn't need a Scroll of Fell Cleave or Impetus to learn a WS or JA. Ultimately, things boil down to dumb luck more than legitimate work at the moment, and if WoE is dying down in popularity, scroll supplies aren't going to get much better with seals being finite and VW not very casual/PUG friendly.

Plus older scrolls like Raise III, Utsu: Ni, and so on also face an issue of limited supply for no other reason than SE wanted them to be rare. Again, mages are what they are in part through their spells. Save the rare crap for equipment.



Overall, I'm rather stymied by these "ideas" to alleviate congestion in Port Jeuno. Contrary to the opinions of some, not everyone's swimming in gil. Thus, sellers will likely raise their costs to cover taxes munched under current prices. Meanwhile, SE needs to take a better look at why PJ is so popular to begin with and replicate those features elsewhere. More simplistic travel to Jeuno would be a start, as would the presence of Magian Moogles in the starter cities. Stretching /yell to all city zones would also help in forming groups.That's a poor and may I say stupid way to respond to taxing in just ONE part of a four tier city. And you say that as if people don't already jack up the prices of their wares. Example, on my sever, there's afk bazaars in rolanberry fields still. There are some that literally try to sell ancient beastcoins for 10-11k. Meanwhile back in jeuno, you'll see them going from 8k average sell to 9k. Even may be lucky enough to find them for 6-7k if you stop to scan every bazaar.

Reason why people start selling stuff for absurd amounts of money despite average cost is cause they can get away with it because there WILL BE some one who wants to something and is impatient to wait. And by the way, the taxes are footed by the buyer, not the person selling, meaning there's absolutely no reason for seller to raise their costs to cover anything. If anything it forces them to either lower their price or move to another area if no one is buying their items specifically because of the tax. Anyone who remains in those areas, saved for selling low cost,specific items like ISC bazaars at whitegate by the teleporter, most people afk vending in a taxed area aren't there doing it full time and legitimately afk for whatever reason.

And one other thing, reason why spells like Utsu: Ni and Raise III are expensive because there are many more nin and whm than the spells that exist because there may be reasons they physically do the content to find one themselves. The issue of supply and demand is a simple basic of the economy and one seeming to be forgotten.

[Greatguardian]

The game economy is swimming with gil. The only reason it's not so readily apparent is due to the concentration of that gil within a smaller percentage of the playerbase. This is why you primarily see the effects of inflation on items that these players buy/sell between each other, like Dynamis Currency, Voidwatch drops, and Alexandrite. Fortunately, because this is a video game, there is no socioeconomic infrastructure preventing anyone from accumulating millions of gil if they feel like it. If people aren't swimming in gil at this point, they aren't even trying.

Nothing about the market is going to change when Jeuno tax is reimplemented aside from its location. Instead of clogging up the Guide Stone in Port Jeuno, people will just step out into Sauromugue or Rolanberry again. It's not that big a deal. As much as gil sinks really are increasingly necessary right now, I highly doubt bazaar taxing will contribute very much in that regard.

Though, ITT: Comparing one-time costs to maintenance/upgrade costs and making the absolutely hilarious assertion that mage classes are significantly more expensive than non-mage classes. I did enjoy that.

[Seriha]

The issue of supply and demand is a simple basic of the economy and one seeming to be forgotten.

The game itself isn't bound by the rules of reality. Something is only rare, and thus more susceptible to this, because SE chooses for it to be. Are there lots of NINs and WHMs? Sure. Do some fetch their scrolls outside the AH? No doubt. Has rare drops from BCs or HNMs made such scrolls more accessible? Not in any significant manner. Meanwhile, the people who don't play these particular jobs know they're rare and hard to come by, thus they get to profit when fortune smiles upon them. And that's a profit made not so much against laziness, though possible, but more against the random number generator for those who do try. After a few dozen WoE wins as the most casual friendly avenue and getting no new scrolls, you just kinda wanna give up, and I don't blame people who are frustrated at this.

Unfortunately, even the earning of gil isn't a guarantee since prices can easily rise while you work toward a prior selling point. Such happened when I was looking for a Flume Belt shortly after patch. AH price around 100k? I happen to pick a day with none in stock... suddenly 300k next time I looked. Looking now, they're at 1.3-1.5m. Honestly, just because a few idiots are willing to pay a certain price doesn't mean an item is worth that to everyone else. For lack of alternatives, however, sometimes people have to suck up such costs because there's very little penalty for being a greedy seller. Nevermind the fact this game has its history of price fixings and market manipulations.

[Greatguardian]

Determine what the work is worth to you. If being saved the hassle of doing a few BCNMs isn't worth 1M+ to you, go do the BCNMs. That is how money works.

[Seriha]

BCs face a similar dilemma to WoE in that when people stop doing them, the supply will dry up (See Army's Paeon V for details). Unfortunately, doing either is not a guarantee of acquisition and are limited by seals and timers, making them gambles even for profit-seekers at such times.

Frankly, I have no problem with gear costs fluctuating like this, as they can be resold. It is folly, however, to consider spell costs insignificant when they lack this same luxury with the various proc systems in places throughout the game. With that in mind, if the game is going to present spells as an expectation, the game needs some economic sanity checks to guarantee players can have them. This means common drops, an NPC vendor, or some combination of the two to cap expenses. The melee alternative is just AFK whacking a fort to get your weapon skills up to speed. Maybe in an ideal world, spells would be learned at their respective tree skill levels like WS are so we could "level" into them, but that's not how the game has functioned.

[Alhanelem]

Go ahead, implement the tax system again in Jueno...I miss Rolanmart.
Are you insane? If there's anything I don't miss at all, it's Batallia Mall (where it was on Shiva). Why anyone should have to leave town to shop bazaars is beyond me.

When the taxes were abolished and everyone moved inside, I thought that was the best thing ever.

----

ALL THEY HAVE TO DO: Put abyssea NPCs in aht urghan. They're revamping other ToAU content anyway, and while they seem afraid of the idea, it was a lot better when 300 people were in a big area like whitegate than the same number in the fishbowl that is port jeuno. And as an added bonus, add field manuals outside town so you can use tabs to warp to your home nation.

[Wolfandre]

The game economy is swimming with gil. The only reason it's not so readily apparent is due to the concentration of that gil within a smaller percentage of the playerbase.

I AM THE 99%!!!

OCCUPY PORT JEUNO!!

[Soranika]

Are you insane? If there's anything I don't miss at all, it's Batallia Mall (where it was on Shiva). Why anyone should have to leave town to shop bazaars is beyond me.

When the taxes were abolished and everyone moved inside, I thought that was the best thing ever.

----

ALL THEY HAVE TO DO: Put abyssea NPCs in aht urghan. They're revamping other ToAU content anyway, and while they seem afraid of the idea, it was a lot better when 300 people were in a big area like whitegate than the same number in the fishbowl that is port jeuno. And as an added bonus, add field manuals outside town so you can use tabs to warp to your home nation.
For the same reason I believe people do it on private RO servers, to keep the normal meet up towns from becoming over crowded, making it less frustration of lag.

I'd see every one open up afk bazaar mules in one spot over cluttering towns and keeping other people from loading on the screen, causing lag or others to downright crash.

@Seriha
Two weeks ago was my first time ever fighting Kirin. Dropped Raise III. Just because something doesn't drop on your first go or when you want it doesn't mean it won't drop at all. Yeah. WoE is another beast on it's own, but you have people that still do old endgame content like Sky. Kirin is a huge push over now for lowmaning. As for BCNMs.... it does turn into a "make friends" situation. I have no clue wy BCNMs aren't popular anymore....

[Greatguardian]

I AM THE 99%!!!

OCCUPY PORT JEUNO!!

Comparing sociopolitical movements to a video game class discrepancy is nothing short of demeaning. Your humor is lost here, and I hope you feel bad.

Nothing, absolutely nothing, prevents a video game player from picking up a couple like-minded people and doing the BCNMs and HKCNMs that drop every single one of the scrolls mentioned earlier. Nothing, absolutely nothing, prevents people from farming Cruor or joining Cruor farm parties for insane amounts of gil. FFXI is a game whose economic ladder is extremely easy to climb; comparing that to a national economy in which the vast majority of people are more likely to fall further down the ladder than climb it is positively disgusting.

I don't particularly give a flying frack what posters on here think of the Occupy movements. This isn't a political forum. But comparing the grievances of working Americans with the shallow groaning of video game players who are quite literally too lazy to leave port jeuno is everything that's wrong with the popular portrayal of the movement today.

[Kaisha]

I say NO. Taxes should be taken out of this game completely, unless it's what players want. Taxes do not create harmony, especially when the taxed money goes into a black hole, and not to any cause at all.
Taxes create a semi-stable economy.

If they got rid of taxes, they'd have to create other means of taking your gil away from the game other than NPC consumables. I'm surprised SE hasn't nerfed the sell value of all Abyssea-related stuff yet given the millions people are bringing into the economy by burning cruor of chocobo blinkers and pink gear.

[Greatguardian]

Taxes create a semi-stable economy.

If they got rid of taxes, they'd have to create other means of taking your gil away from the game other than NPC consumables. I'm surprised SE hasn't nerfed the sell value of all Abyssea-related stuff yet given the millions people are bringing into the economy by burning cruor of chocobo blinkers and pink gear.

The way I see it is that the people this would hurt the most are the casuals who have no other form of generating gil. This won't hurt any of the people with millions of gil laying around, as they are generally capable of generating income in plenty of other ways if they want to.

Atmacites and VoidDust were a decent attempt at adding gilsinks to high level players, but there really just isn't much for people to buy at the moment. Anything worth buying/selling on the AH at high prices is generally done between high-level players anyways so the money isn't going anywhere.

[Soranika]

You make it sound like they're gonna be so greatly affected... last I remember, there's still 4 other parts of Jeuno. Not just the port.

[Greatguardian]

You make it sound like they're gonna be so greatly affected... last I remember, there's still 4 other parts of Jeuno. Not just the port.

nuh uhhhhhhhhhhhh. There are 3 other parts of Jeuno :3

[Soranika]

Three! Three. lol.

Also though, to people suggesting putting abyssea maw warps and stuff in Whitegate... there's STILL tax there too.

[Greatguardian]

People have been idling in Port Jeuno since 2003. Whitegate was only a temporary stopgap. Some of us oldbies are just set in our ways.

[Soranika]

I thought that use to be lower jeuno. I remember port jeuno being pretty empty on bismarck before abyssea came out.

[Greatguardian]

Depends on the era and the server. A lot of port migrated to Lower Jeuno around 2004-2005~ because of the closer AH, and because it became the Teleport central on my server. Ru'Lude was the hangout for HNM players on most servers, since it was so fancy. I'd love to idle there now, but the MH elevator just annoys the crap out of me, ha.

[Kaisha]

Asura used to be Lower Jeuno hangout prior to ToA, and RolanberryMart. It wasn't until Pandemonium merged with us did their ways of lagging the heck out of Ru'Lude Gardens made people swap over there for bazaaring.

RolMart still superior though, no one afks there, no taxes, and no NPCs hogging up some of the 50 models you're limited to seeing at once.

[Kojo]

I'm not sure what OP is talking about, but why not create a price-hike/undercutting threshold? Like if something is 50K and Dudeman McIdiot wants to put it on AH for LOL1.6mil, it denies it because price can only be hiked at a set restriction or something, like a 25% or 50% increase or something.

[Kaisha]

And remove the fun of supply & demand? No thanks. I'd rather not have an anti-competitive market.

[Kojo]

No, you seem to, like many people, confuse "price" and "worth". I'm not paying 5mil for something that's worth about 30k.

[Soranika]

Should be incentive enough to go find/farm the stuff yourself then, wouldn't it?

[Greatguardian]

No, you seem to, like many people, confuse "price" and "worth". I'm not paying 5mil for something that's worth about 30k.

Worth is determined by the buyer. If an item is being sold for more than it is worth, don't buy it.