Why Cant Final fantasy 11 get the same treatment?

[Shadobi]

Square Enix has announced its plans for an overhaul of troubled MMORPG Final Fantasy XIV, revealing that the remade version of the game will be made available in the fourth quarter of 2012.

In a statement, Square Enix president Yoichi Wada explained that the development team has been working to fix the game to a high standard after a rocky launch ten months ago.

As part of the announcement, Wada said that the unbilled period for the game will now come to a close, and a subscription-based system will be put in place sometime between late November and early December 2011.

The remade version of the game, dubbed 'Version 2.0', is due to be integrated into the game between October and December 2012. The full client will then go on sale at the start of 2013 for both PC and PlayStation 3.

The PS3 version of the game was delayed back when the game launched for PC, as Square Enix said that it was looking to improve stability, performance and functionality before the launch.

Naoki Yoshida, producer on the game, listed all the changes that the game will undergo for the rerelease. The game's current maps will be redesigned to fix the repetitive feel, while a whole new graphics engine will be put in place.

A new server system will also be integrated to fix speed and performance problems, while the user interface will receive a full overhaul.

Finally, the in-game community content will see more regular expansions, while overall the game will see numerous bug fixes and alterations.

"I promise that we will continue to give all Final Fantasy XIV players our full attention as we do everything in our power to provide a high-quality service," he said, "and as such, would like ask for your continued encouragement and support."

"As always, everything we do will be for our players and customers," he concluded.

Yoichi Wada said last month that the Final Fantasy name has been "greatly damaged" by the troubled Final Fantasy XIV.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/37894/Final_Fantasy_XIV_Version_20_Coming_To_PC_PS3_Q4_2012.php

My thoughts on this issue are I find it very hard to understand a game that made zero profit other then the purchase sells is having so much time and effort put into it?

[Alhanelem]

They can't because of the practicality of it. It makes little sense to revamp an 8+ year old game that pretty much has had nearly all the subscribers it will ever have when they can improve a game that's still young and re-market it and potentially gain new subscribers.

It also can't be fairly done without dropping console support.

I said it before in another thread, but not putting anything into improving FFXIV will not automatically suddenly mean that a revamp for FFXI would happen. The funds and manpower would most likely be invested in a new or other project, such as one of the other MMOs they're also developing.

[Shadobi]

They can't because of the practicality of it. It makes little sense to revamp an 8+ year old game that pretty much has had nearly all the subscribers it will ever have when they can improve a game that's still young and re-market it and potentially gain new subscribers.

It also can't be fairly done without dropping console support.

I said it before in another thread, but not putting anything into improving FFXIV will not automatically suddenly mean that a revamp for FFXI would happen. The funds and manpower would most likely be invested in a new or other project, such as one of the other MMOs they're also developing.
I understand but there revamping a game engine for ff14 doesn't that cost tons of money as well?

[Zagen]

I understand but there revamping a game engine for ff14 doesn't that cost tons of money as well?

The potential ROI for 14 is higher than it is for 11 because of 11's age.

[Shadobi]

The potential ROI for 14 is higher than it is for 11 because of 11's age.
Ok thank you. Just sad the game can't grow into something more better.

[Airget]

It's all a mystery lol, they asked which platform people play on yet they never revealed it or even gave a reason as to why they asked it. Now it's been 2 months since that's occurred and the only notable news we've gotten are plans for how they plan to readjust a lot of things up to March lol. It would be nice to get some real juicy news for this game but as long as they have ps2 support the only possible way to evolve the game is by changing what's already there with small additions here and there to increase it's longevity.

[Zumi]

Well they are pretty much capped on PS2 hard drive space due to the partition limits Sony has on the system. That means a whole new expansion is pretty much out of the question.

[Atomic_Skull]

They can't because of the practicality of it. It makes little sense to revamp an 8+ year old game that pretty much has had nearly all the subscribers it will ever have

EVE Online says differently.

[Greatguardian]

EVE Online says differently.

Yeah. I just installed Office 2010 and I have to say, for such an old program, Microsoft Excel sure is spiffy. I'm sure there are other MMOs out there that receive similar revamps successfully.

[Sparthos]

Gimme a P
Gimme an S
Gimme a 2

What do you spell? Fail.

[Alhanelem]

Yeah. I just installed Office 2010 and I have to say, for such an old program, Microsoft Excel sure is spiffy. I'm sure there are other MMOs out there that receive similar revamps successfully.
Because word processing software and games are the same thing and marketed the same way.

[Concerned4FFxi]

WOW is releasing a new expansion I heard

Also the mystery survey about which platform users play on for 11 is hopefully because they are planning a finale to 11.

As I said in another thread, I hope empyrean weapons, armor, and abyssea were to prepare us for a final add on, otherwise what's the point of grinding in abyssea or vw?- can't be for the last stand that's been in the dat forever so it can't be true endgame like sea or sky was.

[Alhanelem]

Also the mystery survey about which platform users play on for 11 is hopefully because they are planning a finale to 11.
MMOs don't have "finales." they just get their plug pulled.

The mystery survey about platforms is likely to find out how few people play on the PS2 so they can consider dropping it.

[Greatguardian]

Because word processing software and games are the same thing and marketed the same way.

Woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooosh.

It's a joke.

EVE online = Excel in space.

[Alhanelem]

Ha. Hah. Funny. I guess...

[Zumi]

WOW is releasing a new expansion I heard

Also the mystery survey about which platform users play on for 11 is hopefully because they are planning a finale to 11.

As I said in another thread, I hope empyrean weapons, armor, and abyssea were to prepare us for a final add on, otherwise what's the point of grinding in abyssea or vw?- can't be for the last stand that's been in the dat forever so it can't be true endgame like sea or sky was.

They usually give you a few months warning when they are about to shut down a mmo. But I don't think SE is actually losing money running FFXI so they probably won't be shutting it down anytime soon. If they lost so many subs that it isn't worth their while to run FFXI then it would probably get shut down.

[svengalis]

They can't because of the practicality of it. It makes little sense to revamp an 8+ year old game that pretty much has had nearly all the subscribers it will ever have when they can improve a game that's still young and re-market it and potentially gain new subscribers.

It also can't be fairly done without dropping console support.

I said it before in another thread, but not putting anything into improving FFXIV will not automatically suddenly mean that a revamp for FFXI would happen. The funds and manpower would most likely be invested in a new or other project, such as one of the other MMOs they're also developing.

Actually I think it makes absolutely ZERO, NO sense at all to try and support and rebuild a failed game(FF XIV) versus building upon or rebuilding one that is making you a ton of money. FF XIV is fail, you need to get over it Square Enix needs to get over it. It will be a miracle if they can save that game.

[svengalis]

EVE Online says differently.

There are quite a few MMOs that have been revamped that have been out as long as or longer then FF XI. Some with even less subscribers.

[Mirage]

Woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooosh.

It's a joke.

EVE online = Excel in space.

That was actually a bit clever. I've never played EVE so i didn't know :D

[Runespider]

It makes more sense to spend money on a successfull game with an high pop steady userbase than a total failure with a very unsure future. This whole thing is about saving face on a failure game though not business sense.

[Zagen]

It makes more sense to spend money on a successfull game with an high pop steady userbase than a total failure with a very unsure future. This whole thing is about saving face on a failure game though not business sense.

Not when almost all of that user base is top heavy (i.e. already level capped, no reason to play with newbies).

Not when the engine is over 10 years old, even if PS2 support was killed the engine still has limits because it was built on the specs of a PS2 (full engine rebuild is needed where 14 can get away with a revamp due to a newer core engine).

Not when a revamp risks losing the current established user base because the changes are unwelcome. (If the BST pet poll is any testament to how SE really listens to the players this is highly likely.)

Not when a revamp involves a lot of existing content and story lines.

There are more reasons but these are fairly major reasons why revamping 11 isn't as financially feasible as 14.

[cidbahamut]

The amount of resources they are pouring into FFXIV is absolutely appalling. If even a modest chunk of those resources were instead being devoted to FFXI I think we would have a much richer gaming experience, rather than a thousand little inconveniences that take SE years to admit are there, to say nothing of the time it takes them to address the issues.

[FrankReynolds]

Not when almost all of that user base is top heavy (i.e. already level capped, no reason to play with newbies).

Do you think the people currently playing FFXIV are all sitting at level 1 waiting for more people to come? Or do you just think that they are inherently better people than the players of FFXI? Why would they be any more inclined to play with new players than the FFXI community is? The new players will play with the new players.


Not when the engine is over 10 years old, even if PS2 support was killed the engine still has limits because it was built on the specs of a PS2 (full engine rebuild is needed where 14 can get away with a revamp due to a newer core engine).

Not when a revamp risks losing the current established user base because the changes are unwelcome. (If the BST pet poll is any testament to how SE really listens to the players this is highly likely.)

They could perform the same rebuild on FFXI. Even if they lost / alienated half the people playing FFXI now by dropping PS2 and adding PS3 support, they would still end up with more customers than FFXIV has right now, and the same potential for new customers.


Not when a revamp involves a lot of existing content and story lines.

They are redoing all the story lines for FFXIV. Whats the difference?


There are more reasons but these are fairly major reasons why revamping 11 isn't as financially feasible as 14.

Everything you just listed applies to FFXIV or any other MMO they make equally.

[Zagen]

The amount of resources they are pouring into FFXIV is absolutely appalling. If even a modest chunk of those resources were instead being devoted to FFXI I think we would have a much richer gaming experience, rather than a thousand little inconveniences that take SE years to admit are there, to say nothing of the time it takes them to address the issues.
And without those resources being put into 11 people are still paying SE to play where as that isn't true about 14.

[Zagen]

Do you think the people currently playing FFXIV are all sitting at level 1 waiting for more people to come? Or do you just think that they are inherently better people than the players of FFXI? Why would they be any more inclined to play with new players than the FFXI community is? The new players will play with the new players

And how many people are playing 14 compared to 11? If 14 had the player base 11 does I wouldn't have mentioned this.


They could perform the same rebuild on FFXI. Even if they lost / alienated half the people playing FFXI now by dropping PS2 and adding PS3 support, they would still end up with more customers than FFXIV has right now, and the same potential for new customers.

They aren't rebuilding the 14 engine from scratch in a year and a half... they're updating the current one. You can't get the same potential from the 11 game engine even if all console support was dropped. When an engine is initially built on a core spec it suffers from that. Why do you think 14 has its own engine and not just an upgraded version of 11's engine?


They are redoing all the story lines for FFXIV. Whats the difference?
How deep is the storyline in 14 compared to 11?

[cidbahamut]

And without those resources being put into 11 people are still paying SE to play where as that isn't true about 14.

Pouring endless piles of money into a game that has already crashed and burned makes just as much financial sense(or possibly less) than devoting a fraction of that money to a successful game to give it some maintenance it has needed for years.

[Zagen]

Pouring endless piles of money into a game that has already crashed and burned makes just as much financial sense(or possibly less) than devoting a fraction of that money to a successful game to give it some maintenance it has needed for years.

Except it doesn't when that game is still making profits without that additional maintenance.

[cidbahamut]

You don't refuse to change the oil in your car simply because the engine has yet to fuse into a smoldering lump of immovable metal.

[Zagen]

You don't refuse to change the oil in your car simply because the engine has yet to fuse into a smoldering lump of immovable metal.
Bad analogy.
Changing your oil is minor maintenance not major.

[Neisan_Quetz]

And not addressing that minor maintenance can cause major problems down the road.

XI doesn't -need- (I say this tentatively cause of ps2limitationsexcuse etc.) a total remake - not that I wouldn't like one - but it certainly needs more attention than a stretched and overworked dev team because all the resources are being poured into a game that's already been deemed an overall failure.

[FrankReynolds]

Bad analogy.
Changing your oil is minor maintenance not major.

FFXI makes them tons of money. Even if it needs a whole new transmission and a paint job, it is still worth the investment.


And how many people are playing 14 compared to 11? If 14 had the player base 11 does I wouldn't have mentioned this.

The number of capped players is irrelevant. The number of new players playing with each other is what matters. A remade FFXIV has no more potential than a remade FFXI for getting new players, possibly less due to it's bad reputation. however, FFXI already has more players, so if no new ones come, guess what......it's still profitable.



They aren't rebuilding the 14 engine from scratch in a year and a half... they're updating the current one. You can't get the same potential from the 11 game engine even if all console support was dropped. When an engine is initially built on a core spec it suffers from that. Why do you think 14 has its own engine and not just an upgraded version of 11's engine?

The FFXIV road map says this:

1. A complete redesign of current repetitive maps
2. The implementation of a new graphics engine
3. A new server system designed for increased speed and performance
4. A fully renewed user interface

exactly what engine are you talking about that isn't getting rebuilt? and what makes you think that it is any cheaper to do it to FFXIV than it is to FFXI?

[cidbahamut]

And not addressing that minor maintenance can cause major problems down the road.

XI doesn't -need- (I say this tentatively cause of ps2limitationsexcuse etc.) a total remake - not that I wouldn't like one - but it certainly needs more attention than a stretched and overworked dev team because all the resources are being poured into a game that's already been deemed an overall failure.

Pretty much this. FFXI doesn't need a complete makeover, but it could stand to have more updates in the same line as the new HD icons, merging the AHs, Porter Moogles, stuff like that. Quality of life updates that are years overdue. How about fixing some basic pathing issues? I'm sure I'm not the only one who's tired of that rock in Qufim or getting thwarted by a three inch ledge. You know...minor stuff that makes for a better gaming experience.

[Alhanelem]

FFXI makes them tons of money. Even if it needs a whole new transmission and a paint job, it is still worth the investment.That amount of money is shrinking, and it would not bring in many new players. There is a much greater potential for gains in upgrading a newer product than an older one that is long past its prime.

Minor stuff shouldn't need a diversion of funds/manpower from other projects. They should have the resources for an extra guy or two (And they're hiring apparently, so they seem to be aware of this) to keep things rolling smoothly.

[Runespider]

Except it doesn't when that game is still making profits without that additional maintenance.

The point is FFXI makes a lot of money and they are damaging the games future by not investing in it, our happiness with the product is linked to how long we will continue to play it. If you have a great and realiable car and buying more expensive oil for it means you get to keep it running that way for x more years doesn't it make sense to do that? Making a successfull mmo is not something you can just do, the vast majority fail...so if you have a successfull one (yes even if it's 8+ years old) you keep it running the best you can for as long as you can.

Problem with Square is they still think they can do no wrong and churn out successfull MMOs and they can't, there is a really good chance XIV2 will fail too and they aren't taking that possibility on board at all looking at how badly they are starving XI.

[Zagen]

The point is FFXI makes a lot of money and they are damaging the games future by not investing in it, our happiness with the product is linked to how long we will continue to play it. If you have a great and realiable car and buying more expensive oil for it means you get to keep it running that way for x more years doesn't it make sense to do that? Making a successfull mmo is not something you can just do, the vast majority fail...so if you have a successfull one (yes even if it's 8+ years old) you keep it running the best you can for as long as you can.

Problem with Square is they still think they can do no wrong and churn out successfull MMOs and they can't, there is a really good chance XIV2 will fail too and they aren't taking that possibility on board at all looking at how badly they are starving XI.

There is the key "the best you can" has a reasonable limit. Using your car example, if your car is 8 years old and has over 200k miles on it, the cost of maintaining said car is going to go up just like the cost of maintaining an older game engine to keep players happy goes up.

[Clou777]

Yoichi Wada said last month that the Final Fantasy name has been "greatly damaged" by the troubled Final Fantasy XIV.

don't u mean "Troubled Final Fantasy X-2 - XIV"? ( bar XI :p )

[Zagen]

The number of capped players is irrelevant. The number of new players playing with each other is what matters. A remade FFXIV has no more potential than a remade FFXI for getting new players, possibly less due to it's bad reputation. however, FFXI already has more players, so if no new ones come, guess what......it's still profitable.

When a new player looks into an MMO that has over 8 years of content and 500k players they see 8 years of content to catch up on to be on par with those players and the odds of newer players joining slim for the same reason.

When a new player sees an MMO with 1-2 years of age and what 50k players? They see something more attainable in the 14 compared to 11.



The FFXIV road map says this:

1. A complete redesign of current repetitive maps
2. The implementation of a new graphics engine
3. A new server system designed for increased speed and performance
4. A fully renewed user interface

exactly what engine are you talking about that isn't getting rebuilt? and what makes you think that it is any cheaper to do it to FFXIV than it is to FFXI?
The core engine, the part that actually makes the game work.

[cidbahamut]

don't u mean "Troubled Final Fantasy X-2 - XIV"? ( bar XI :p )

FFX was pretty troubled too.

[Sesh]

That amount of money is shrinking, and it would not bring in many new players. There is a much greater potential for gains in upgrading a newer product than an older one that is long past its prime.

And there you go, that is exactly what SE truly believes. They and you, are missing the most important part of it all... a MMO does not need to have a prime. A mmo should be ever changing ever evolving, if they put commercials, and ads up everywhere for a FFXI 2.0 with an expansion pack etc and hit the marketing hard, they would most likely have a wave of subscriptions from people who never even knew about FFXI and veterans that quit.

I don't play wow, and I don't like wow, but if they keep releasing expansions every couple of years the game is still gonna be going strong in 2020. People play a MMO because there is always something new to do, or experience. Once they've gotten close to completing their goals the company slaps a plethora of new content so the players never stop.

FFXI doesn't have to just simply be an old game and die. (It will because SE thinks they know best, and doesn't listen to their customers) If they did redesign XI, add a new expansion, new jobs(or your job turns into another after 99 if you want kind of thing), new rewarding content, then the addicted (us) would stay addicted, and new sheep would follow. A MMO is only limited by how smart the company that makes it is. Sadly our company rides the short bus most of the time.

[cidbahamut]

http://arch.413chan.net/Yup-%28n1294879490184%29.jpg
testingletters

[FrankReynolds]

When a new player looks into an MMO that has over 8 years of content and 500k players they see 8 years of content to catch up on to be on par with those players and the odds of newer players joining slim for the same reason.


If there are 50k veteran players or 500k, doesn't change the fact that EVERYONE on that game has more experience than the guy who is just starting. He still has to do the same crap to get to where they are.


When a new player sees an MMO with 1-2 years of age and what 50k players? They see something more attainable in the 14 compared to 11.

Really?...... cuz when I see a MMORPG that is 1-2 years old and only has 50k subscribers, I think that the game probably is going to be canceled before I even get to make any significant progress in it. When I see one that is 10 years old and has several hundred thousand players I expect that game to have a lot to offer.

[Zagen]

If there are 50k veteran players or 500k, doesn't change the fact that EVERYONE on that game has more experience than the guy who is just starting. He still has to do the same crap to get to where they are.



Really?...... cuz when I see a MMORPG that is 1-2 years old and only has 50k subscribers, I think that the game probably is going to be canceled before I even get to make any significant progress in it. When I see one that is 10 years old and has several hundred thousand players I expect that game to have a lot to offer.

When you're looking at 8 years of content that you'd be catching up to compared to 1-2 years the 8 years is very daunting and discouraging. If you don't see it that way, that's cool but you're in the minority.

[Sesh]

When you're looking at 8 years of content that you'd be catching up to compared to 1-2 years the 8 years is very daunting and discouraging. If you don't see it that way, that's cool but you're in the minority.

Except in today's FFXI it's not 8 years of content, because of many of the new changes a new player can now come in and get through, and "beat" the game in about a year. The point of a MMO is to have so much content that it takes the player 5 or more years to accomplish their goals. The more time it takes the customer the more money the company makes. If it's rewarding and fun both sides get a positive out of it.

I hate to bring up WoW again, but since it is the leader in the MMO market; "Blizzard Entertainment announced World of Warcraft on September 2, 2001.[7] The game was released on November 23, 2004, on the 10th anniversary of the Warcraft franchise." WoW is now a 7 year old game, and there are still plenty of 13 year-olds signing up to play it today. I really beg to differ that "too much content" is a bad thing or a set back for a MMO if the company makes intelligent marketing, gaming, and business decisions in favor of its customer.

[Zagen]

Except in today's FFXI it's not 8 years of content, because of many of the new changes a new player can now come in and get through, and "beat" the game in about a year. The point of a MMO is to have so much content that it takes the player 5 or more years to accomplish their goals. The more time it takes the customer the more money the company makes. If it's rewarding and fun both sides get a positive out of it.

I hate to bring up WoW again, but since it is the leader in the MMO market; "Blizzard Entertainment announced World of Warcraft on September 2, 2001.[7] The game was released on November 23, 2004, on the 10th anniversary of the Warcraft franchise." WoW is now a 7 year old game, and there are still plenty of 13 year-olds signing up to play it today. I really beg to differ that "too much content" is a bad thing or a set back for a MMO if the company makes intelligent marketing, gaming, and business decisions in favor of its customer.

A potential player who's never played FFXI sees it as 8 years of content not as something a player could get through in a couple of months to a few years depending on play time, style, and learning ability.

Wow is in a completely different ball game than FFXI which is why I haven't mentioned it until now.

WoW is computer only. This is a huge factor when considering update/upgrade potentials over the years.
WoW locks jobs meaning people will be making new characters to play different jobs (new and old players).
WoW allows you to make multiple characters/jobs.
WoW also has always been get up and go friendly, the storyline until later in the game is extremely shallow even if you do all the missions, this isn't the same in FFXI (reason i came back from WoW)

There are many more reasons why WoW is the MMO king that it is and why its a horrible comparison for FFXI or FFXIV (even if the revamp was successful I can't see it going up against WoW).

[Malamasala]

The point of a MMO is to have so much content that it takes the player 5 or more years to accomplish their goals.

I feel that MMOs do not need to be long, just have a lot of replay value. Like take FFX. With the sphere grid you could replay and try different things. In FFXI, you are pretty much stuck only playing one way per job class.

Just take Diablo 2 for example. It lasted ages, just because people could do different builds and replay the same things in a different way. FFXI isn't completely wrong though, since each of the 20 classes can be played a bit differently. But a much larger merit field would have made the game better.

[cidbahamut]

Neither of those are MMORPGs...

[Sesh]

A potential player who's never played FFXI sees it as 8 years of content not as something a player could get through in a couple of months to a few years depending on play time, style, and learning ability.

It's really hard to tell if that matters though, you would have to do polling, data gathering, etc. Whether it's 8 years of content or 2 years the MMO player has a long road ahead of them. It depends on how it is presented by the company and the community of players. (XI by far has one of the most in depth and knowledgeable MMO communities I've seen in my MMO experiences) FFXIV in countries other than Japan is doomed unless they do some very aggressive marketing, they may fill it with new content and revamp it, but let's be honest the only new subscribers they are going to get when "2.0" is complete are disgruntled FFXIers from lack of updates. So in the end what is the difference they will end up with a small population on one game, and a large pop. on another.

What most people are trying to get at is that you could potentially save both. Redo 14 find new customers, (marketing) and rebuild XI while keeping old customers, and adding new customers. Like many have said they want to save face with 14 even at the loss of 11 because it's "past its prime".


Wow is in a completely different ball game than FFXI which is why I haven't mentioned it until now.

WoW is computer only. This is a huge factor when considering update/upgrade potentials over the years.
WoW locks jobs meaning people will be making new characters to play different jobs (new and old players).
WoW allows you to make multiple characters/jobs.
WoW also has always been get up and go friendly, the storyline until later in the game is extremely shallow even if you do all the missions, this isn't the same in FFXI (reason i came back from WoW)

There are many more reasons why WoW is the MMO king that it is and why its a horrible comparison for FFXI or FFXIV (even if the revamp was successful I can't see it going up against WoW).

I wasn't really comparing the two games, more so the two game companies and the choices they made that contribute towards the games success. FFXI is completely different in so many different ways from WoW, but those core elements of any MMO that keep the player hooked new and old can always be updated, tweaked, and redesigned to fit in with today's gamer. Just because the brand is old doesn't mean the game has to be, in FFXI or WoW.


I feel that MMOs do not need to be long, just have a lot of replay value. Like take FFX. With the sphere grid you could replay and try different things. In FFXI, you are pretty much stuck only playing one way per job class.

Just take Diablo 2 for example. It lasted ages, just because people could do different builds and replay the same things in a different way. FFXI isn't completely wrong though, since each of the 20 classes can be played a bit differently. But a much larger merit field would have made the game better.

I agree with you, FFXI's main problem has always been finding a good balance of re-playability which has yet to be achieved. In the past you could continue to do events over n over but only if you could fit into the schedule of your linkshell. Now everything is lowman for the most part, we are starting to see some balance with VW etc. they just haven't really perfected it. Which would be another great thing about a XI-2.0, it would give them a great opportunity to implement all the great ideas that never came to fruition because of constraints.

[FrankReynolds]

A potential player who's never played FFXI sees it as 8 years of content not as something a player could get through in a couple of months to a few years depending on play time, style, and learning ability.

Wow is in a completely different ball game than FFXI which is why I haven't mentioned it until now.

WoW is computer only. This is a huge factor when considering update/upgrade potentials over the years.
WoW locks jobs meaning people will be making new characters to play different jobs (new and old players).
WoW allows you to make multiple characters/jobs.
WoW also has always been get up and go friendly, the storyline until later in the game is extremely shallow even if you do all the missions, this isn't the same in FFXI (reason i came back from WoW)

There are many more reasons why WoW is the MMO king that it is and why its a horrible comparison for FFXI or FFXIV (even if the revamp was successful I can't see it going up against WoW).

Your just making stuff up now. No one thinks it will take them 8 years to catch up in FFXI.

If potential new players read any reviews / forums (they would have to since there are no advertisements anymore), they would see a slew of people talking about how old content is Irrelevant (hence they can choose not to complete it) and new content is easy.


If they read reviews / forums about FFXIV..... well the fact that they are rebuilding it from the ground up should tell you what you will find.

EDIT: and to be clear, I would honestly like to get into FFXIV, but it just has way too much going against it. New / potential players don't really care what roman numeral is attached to the end of the title. Only players who have invested time in one of them care. If they are going to drop a shit load of money on rebuilding a game, it makes sense to put it into the profitable one with a stable player base. Some stupid gangster rapper once said "Don't fuck up fa sho dough tryin' ta get mo dough.". Maybe SE needs to hire him.

[Zagen]

Your just making stuff up now. No one thinks it will take them 8 years to catch up in FFXI.

I never said it would take 8 years to catch up or that a new player would perceive it to take them 8 years, I said there is 8 years of content in the game. As in Expansions, storylines, zones, cut scenes, updates, tweaks, etc. When you tell a person there's all this great stuff for you to do but almost all of the players will already be past all that and not doing it anymore you don't give them much hope.

The younger an MMO is the less likely it is that the majority of the player base will be top heavy meaning higher chances of existing players mixing in with the new players on the beginning/older content.

[Catsby]

It would make sense to give FFXI the treatment that 14 is getting but if you follow game journalism you would know that Japanese game developers sometimes let pride make their decisions.

Do we run away to lick our wounds and learn from our mistakes? Nope, fuck that. We're going to MAKE them like the game they told us sucked.

[Vitus]

Really?...... cuz when I see a MMORPG that is 1-2 years old and only has 50k subscribers, I think that the game probably is going to be canceled before I even get to make any significant progress in it. When I see one that is 10 years old and has several hundred thousand players I expect that game to have a lot to offer.

One would rather joins a younger game with ~10millions subs than an older game of only ~100k population. There is no hope for FFXI 2.0. That's the reality. Just live with it. SE won't throw money away just to make you happy, i'm sure of it.

[Darkvalkyr]

Oh god this topic again....

My view:
First things first, FFXIV is NOT being remade as some seem to really believe it to be in every sense of that word. The game's not being tossed out the window for a new one - they've already got the bases set and are building it up slowly per update as they make changes each patch - nowhere is it evident that they're deleting old content bar lost-forever storyline which is actually PART of the storyline and not a retcon. The UI screenshot makes the game seem new and flashy and a toss away of the current game, but it's actually the same thing reskinned with changed graphics engine and stuff.

At the end of the day, Square Enix decided that the prospects of pouring/allocating in cash in upgrading FFXIV would pay off better and reduced how many funds the FFXI dev team would get. That's how it is, and given how they've been working since Yoshida's taken over and have already come much closer to making 2.0, saying that SE should've done otherwise is telling them to separate the milk from ice cream once it's been mixed into a milkshake.

[FrankReynolds]

I never said it would take 8 years to catch up or that a new player would perceive it to take them 8 years, I said there is 8 years of content in the game. As in Expansions, storylines, zones, cut scenes, updates, tweaks, etc. When you tell a person there's all this great stuff for you to do but almost all of the players will already be past all that and not doing it anymore you don't give them much hope.

The younger an MMO is the less likely it is that the majority of the player base will be top heavy meaning higher chances of existing players mixing in with the new players on the beginning/older content.

When this game came out in NA, the JP players had already beat all the missions etc. and NA players cried a little. Life went on. When the game came out on 360, CPU / PS2 players had already beat everything. 360 players cried and life went on. Now that FFXIV is out, this is somehow supposed to change? get real guy. Even if FFXIV becomes a super hit 18 months from now, FFXI is and will be (there was no mass exodus when FFXIV launched the first time, there won't be next time either) still an extremely profitable game. Even if rebuilding just allowed them to keep the customer base at what it is now without adding any new customers, it would be a worthwhile investment.

You keep saying 8 years of content, but your not trying to insinuate that people perceive it as taking 8 years? Exactly how long do you think people think it will take? You went to WOW and came back, why? Didn't you know that the population was "Top Heavy", and that no one would do content with you? All I'm hearing is that you want to play FFXIV so that you can be a big fissh in a small pond. That will come to an end in any MMORPG eventually. sorry.

[Zagen]

When this game came out in NA, the JP players had already beat all the missions etc. and NA players cried a little. Life went on. When the game came out on 360, CPU / PS2 players had already beat everything. 360 players cried and life went on. Now that FFXIV is out, this is somehow supposed to change? get real guy. Even if FFXIV becomes a super hit 18 months from now, FFXI is and will be (there was no mass exodus when FFXIV launched the first time, there won't be next time either) still an extremely profitable game. Even if rebuilding just allowed them to keep the customer base at what it is now without adding any new customers, it would be a worthwhile investment.

NA launch also had a ton of buzz around the game finally coming over meaning a huge influx of new players. When I started playing (NA PC release) there were very few level capped players running around nor a majority of JP players complete with all missions (got most of my missions done with JP players because they liked the fact I attempted to talk to them with translation lists, or brought me around to laugh at me because of that either way I got missions done with JP players) and at that time I was playing during late PST/Prime JP time so not sure what you're talking about. Also saw very few players JP or NA being at 75, then again considering the EXP required to get 75 back then was closer to going from 1-95 now and no Colibri speed exp let alone Abyssea speed.

I haven't met a single 360 player in the 5 years it has been around who wasn't a PS2 or PC player first. Not to mention back then I knew quite a few people who hadn't even finished getting 1 job to level 75 so everyone having beaten everything is BS, back then the ratio was probably at best a 40/60 ratio favoring people who hadn't beaten everything yet.

Edit:


You keep saying 8 years of content, but your not trying to insinuate that people perceive it as taking 8 years? Exactly how long do you think people think it will take? You went to WOW and came back, why? Didn't you know that the population was "Top Heavy", and that no one would do content with you? All I'm hearing is that you want to play FFXIV so that you can be a big fissh in a small pond. That will come to an end in any MMORPG eventually. sorry.
When I explained the game was around for several years, it was a selling point to my friends and co-workers I talked into trying the game out, most left after a few months because if I wasn't around to help them most of the time they couldn't get things done because no one was doing older content.

I left WoW because it had no deep story line to suck me in at the time, I hear its gotten better with the newer expansions but I haven't played to know for sure. Sure it was top heavy when I played yet some how I had no problem teaming up with other new or experienced players the whole way from level 1 to 40 something before I quit.

You think I want to play FFXIV to be a big fish? I'm one of the player's who refused to make the jump because the closed beta once I got it running (yay horrible driver comparability) felt like an alpha game at best. When FFXIV 2.0 comes out I'll reevaluate my decision but until then I don't care for the game. That however doesn't detract from being able to see it has a higher potential financial gain in the long run than FFXI does from a revamp.

[Atomic_Skull]

FFXI has about 300k subscribers these days which is actually pretty good for an MMO that isn't WoW. For comparison, EVE Online (which is about the same age) has 500k.

Back in 2007 FFXI had around 500k, it was only when SE all but abandoned development on the game in 2008 to concentrate on FFXIV that subscriptions started falling off.

EVE is just as much of an "old game" as FFXI and yet with technology updates to the client to keep it current and regular content releases it has increased it's subscribers over the years.

[Zagen]

FFXI has about 300k subscribers these days which is actually pretty good for an MMO that isn't WoW. For comparison, EVE Online (which is about the same age) has 500k.

EVE is just as much of an "old game" as FFXI and yet with technology updates to the client to keep it current it has increased it's subscribers over the years.

Except they designed the game engine for PC allowing for said tech updates, also if I'm not mistaken they had a partial if not complete engine overhaul a few years ago.

[Atomic_Skull]

Except they designed the game engine for PC allowing for said tech updates, also if I'm not mistaken they had a partial if not complete engine overhaul a few years ago.

They did, but at the same time they maintained compatibility with the old client on the same servers for a couple years after that for people with PCs that weren't powerful enough to run the new client.

[Zagen]

They did, but at the same time they maintained compatibility with the old client on the same servers for a couple years after that for people with PCs that weren't powerful enough to run the new client.

Ah that's nice customer service there :D wasn't aware of that part heh.

[Vitus]

SE understands perfectly even with minimal resrouces allocate to FFXI and they can still maintain steady subs. They wouldn't put "lipstick on a pig" because they are smart enough to know it is a waste of resources.

[FrankReynolds]

NA launch also had a ton of buzz around the game finally coming over meaning a huge influx of new players. When I started playing (NA PC release) there were very few level capped players running around nor a majority of JP players complete with all missions (got most of my missions done with JP players because they liked the fact I attempted to talk to them with translation lists, or brought me around to laugh at me because of that either way I got missions done with JP players) and at that time I was playing during late PST/Prime JP time so not sure what you're talking about. Also saw very few players JP or NA being at 75, then again considering the EXP required to get 75 back then was closer to going from 1-95 now and no Colibri speed exp let alone Abyssea speed.

I haven't met a single 360 player in the 5 years it has been around who wasn't a PS2 or PC player first. Not to mention back then I knew quite a few people who hadn't even finished getting 1 job to level 75 so everyone having beaten everything is BS, back then the ratio was probably at best a 40/60 ratio favoring people who hadn't beaten everything yet.

Edit:


When I explained the game was around for several years, it was a selling point to my friends and co-workers I talked into trying the game out, most left after a few months because if I wasn't around to help them most of the time they couldn't get things done because no one was doing older content.

I left WoW because it had no deep story line to suck me in at the time, I hear its gotten better with the newer expansions but I haven't played to know for sure. Sure it was top heavy when I played yet some how I had no problem teaming up with other new or experienced players the whole way from level 1 to 40 something before I quit.

You think I want to play FFXIV to be a big fish? I'm one of the player's who refused to make the jump because the closed beta once I got it running (yay horrible driver comparability) felt like an alpha game at best. When FFXIV 2.0 comes out I'll reevaluate my decision but until then I don't care for the game. That however doesn't detract from being able to see it has a higher potential financial gain in the long run than FFXI does from a revamp.

I see nothing here explaining why giving FFXI some love and new life is a bad idea. Be honest, your friends quit because the leveling grind was awful and getting a group for missions sucked. XP is super easy to get now, and you don't need a specific group to do most of the missions anymore. There are people all over these forums complaining that they spent years getting sea/limbus/sky/relics/salvage gear, that is now outclassed by stuff that people who just started playing this year already have. The amount of time the game has been out is only seen as negative because they haven't done any major modernization on it.

You know damn well that if they came out with FFXI V.2, you would buy it, and if it was good, you would tell all those same people you told before to buy it again. People who follow this stuff know that FFXIV has been panned by the critics / players. The 6.9 billion other people on this planet are just as likely to buy FFXI V.2 as they are FFXIV V.2, becasue they don't know the friggin difference. FFXI however has 10 times the player base, and is thus already a guaranteed return on investment.

[FrankReynolds]

SE understands perfectly even with minimal resrouces allocate to FFXI and they can still maintain steady subs. They wouldn't put "lipstick on a pig" because they are smart enough to know it is a waste of resources.

Yeah, because the money in FFXIV has been so well spent.

[Vitus]

Yeah, because the money in FFXIV has been so well spent.

These might be too tough to understand for you?
- investment, risk, opportunity, growth

[Vitus]

Back in 2007 FFXI had around 500k, it was only when SE all but abandoned development on the game in 2008 to concentrate on FFXIV that subscriptions started falling off.


I think the game population was peaked around the time of Chains of Promathia implementation. Development was still in full force back then. But the game was full of hurdles and grievances and CoP was the last straw that broke cammel's back. A lot of people didn't find the game fun, so they left. That's when the population began to shrink, i think.

[Atomic_Skull]

I think the game population was peaked around the time of Chains of Promathia implementation. Development was still in full force back then. But the game was full of hurdles and grievances and CoP was the last straw that broke cammel's back. A lot of people didn't find the game fun, so they left. That's when the population began to shrink, i think.

Not according to FFXIAH.

[Vitus]

Not according to FFXIAH.

I wouldn't quote FFXIAH as a credible source for counting FFXI population as it still shows 49k active characters on Pandemonium.

[Haldarn]

http://www.playonline.com/pcd/topics/ff11us/0904/topics_all.html

Third item on the list


Vana'dielian Population Tops Two Million! (04/22/2009)

It is our distinct pleasure to announce that during the third week of April, the total number of active characters across all worlds in FINAL FANTASY XI has exceeded the two million mark for the first time!
Since the commencement of service on May 16th, 2002, Vana'diel has gone on to become a vibrant gathering place for adventurers hailing from all corners of the globe. Boasting four expansions and one add-on scenario with two more in the pipes, FINAL FANTASY XI continues to evolve into an ever richer realm of magic and adventure.

We would like to thank you, our fans, for your loyal patronage over the years, and look forward to your continued support for many more to come.

[katoplepa]

I think the game population was peaked around the time of Chains of Promathia implementation. Development was still in full force back then. But the game was full of hurdles and grievances and CoP was the last straw that broke cammel's back. A lot of people didn't find the game fun, so they left. That's when the population began to shrink, i think.

CoP was challenging and people did everything they can to complete it.

I started to noticed people quitting a lot, when there was'nt nothing new to do and everyone done nyzul and salvage a lot and the game stopped to offer something new for about an year or more... then, they released abyssea in a hurry to try keeping alive the situation, but a lot of people quitted just before abyssea.. not everyone came back..

[CrystalWeapon]

Oh god this topic again....

My view:
First things first, FFXIV is NOT being remade as some seem to really believe it to be in every sense of that word. The game's not being tossed out the window for a new one - they've already got the bases set and are building it up slowly per update as they make changes each patch - nowhere is it evident that they're deleting old content bar lost-forever storyline which is actually PART of the storyline and not a retcon. The UI screenshot makes the game seem new and flashy and a toss away of the current game, but it's actually the same thing reskinned with changed graphics engine and stuff.

At the end of the day, Square Enix decided that the prospects of pouring/allocating in cash in upgrading FFXIV would pay off better and reduced how many funds the FFXI dev team would get. That's how it is, and given how they've been working since Yoshida's taken over and have already come much closer to making 2.0, saying that SE should've done otherwise is telling them to separate the milk from ice cream once it's been mixed into a milkshake.

Except they are completely remaking the game. They redid the combat engine, they said they were making a completely new gui, they are implimenting new server equipment, they are rewriting the entire server architecture, they are releasing a completely new client once 2.0 is out which will be free for download from the lodestone, they are designing a brand new graphics engine specifically for xiv, the world maps are being completely changed, and once all this is said and done some aspects of the storyline that are playable atm will no longer be available once the events taking place over this year are done and the game changes.

I don't see how you can say the game is not being remade when just about every aspect software and hardware is being redone. Even the formulas from stats to exp are being completely revamped.

The lodestone recently put up an extremely detailed report on everything that's changing along with a timeline for these changes.

[Teraniku]

I'll bet that they at least considered upgrading XI at some point. XIV's upgrade is just easier to implement being that it's engine is PC based, and not tied to a ancient console whose PC client runs in a DirectX wrapper.

I'd be happy if they just upgraded the DirectX wrapper for the PC client, which would allow greater compatibility with current gen graphics cards and allow some minor graphics tweaks, like shiny water.

[CrystalWeapon]

I really think that square enix should at least hire new people to rewrite (not change) the code for xi for pc. It would give them an opportunity to clear out some of the poorly written spaghetti code, which could be then ported back to ps2 and xbox. It would also give them a clean slate to port to the vita. I don't think people would want to buy into xi on a handheld if the client is a buggy as the xbox one can be at times.

[CapriciousOne]

There is the key "the best you can" has a reasonable limit. Using your car example, if your car is 8 years old and has over 200k miles on it, the cost of maintaining said car is going to go up just like the cost of maintaining an older game engine to keep players happy goes up.

Even with that same car analogy you are missing an important part, the maintenance cost goes up mainly because the owner is trying to find original pieces of the car that are no longer made and supported as well instead of looking for parts that are similar and compatible that can accomplish the same task. This is much what SE has been tryinig to do to this game the content and other content. They have been trying to keep this game in a model that has long been outdated and isnt really supported by the player base instead of evolving it to meet teh current demands and needs of the community today and not what it used to be 8 years ago.

Just like cars where you can completely replace the engine, transmission, and other internal parts to more current versions, the same can be done with FFXI especially for those that play FFXI on the PS3 like myself. Sure the game was designed with and for PS2 in mind but that isnt to say that there couldnt be PS3 optimizations made for those players like myself that are exclusive to PS3 or 360.

This in turn will give the older ps2 users if any still exist the option of just stop being cheap and upgrade to a ps3 for the new content and optimizations or just miss out and stay on PS2 if they so choose but the point is it would be AN OPTION that YOU not SE decides.

[Zagen]

Just like cars where you can completely replace the engine, transmission, and other internal parts to more current versions, the same can be done with FFXI especially for those that play FFXI on the PS3 like myself. Sure the game was designed with and for PS2 in mind but that isnt to say that there couldnt be PS3 optimizations made for those players like myself that are exclusive to PS3 or 360.

If FFXI was build for PC (like WoW, and Eve) upgrades and changes would be much more manageable the fact that the game was built for PS2 and not for PC then ported to PS2 is the biggest reason it isn't a financially feasible idea. They'd need to rebuild the whole damn game to give it a proper "limitless" lifespan. Assuming SE didn't learn from this mistake and just threw another wrapper around the PS3 code to make FFXIV PC version then it too will suffer the same fate down the line.

[CapriciousOne]

1. When a new player looks into an MMO that has over 8 years of content and 500k players they see 8 years of content to catch up on to be on par with those players and the odds of newer players joining slim for the same reason.


2. When a new player sees an MMO with 1-2 years of age and what 50k players? They see something more attainable in the 14 compared to 11.


The core engine, the part that actually makes the game work.


1. Well let me say I have been playing this game for 2 going on 3 years now and this is DEFINITELY NOT what i thought of or even considered when i saw this game. I have played Final Fantasy from VII to XII and the last thing I thought about was the idiot box playerbase. When I saw that this game has been out for over 8 years (I still remember it being released) all I saw was a stable online platform with years of content to keep me busy. Even if I never complete everything there wouldn't be and even till this day there still isnt a shortage of content to complete. If i dont complete it is a result of me choosing to not be bothered with it because I dont feel ends justify the means.

2. When I see a game of this stature I think new and mostly inexperienced in reference to the playerbase but I also see them as more adventurous and not set in their ways about how a damn job should be played and when and all that bs I see on here. I see it as more people who are willing to allow any and everyone to enjoy the game any way they damn well please instead of a bunch of pompous know-it-all jackasses that dont have the intelligence enough to figure how to make any set up at least modestly useful even if it is better served by another combination of jobs or gear. What I also see is an uncertain future where as soon as I get good and going and into the game could have the proverbial rug pulled from up under me before it even really gets started. Sure this can happen in any game at any time but the first few years of a MMO usually will make or break its success.

In all though while I dont believe thaot investing the majority of your resources into something uncertain especially when you have a cash cow that you can count on is smart, I do believe that they should invest something into FFXIV but not the amount they are doing. Oh and btw where exactly do you think most of that money to revamp FFXIV is coming from ? it is funded by us on FFXI i am sure and other new releases that arent online games. One of the reasons we are having some of the problems we have with FFXI is because SE is clearly under resourced to manage 2 MMO when they could barely manage this one alone.

[CapriciousOne]

If FFXI was build for PC (like WoW, and Eve) upgrades and changes would be much more manageable the fact that the game was built for PS2 and not for PC then ported to PS2 is the biggest reason it isn't a financially feasible idea. They'd need to rebuild the whole damn game to give it a proper "limitless" lifespan. Assuming SE didn't learn from this mistake and just threw another wrapper around the PS3 code to make FFXIV PC version then it too will suffer the same fate down the line.

Again missing another point that most consoles are, in there own right, PCs as well of sorts. For isntance 360 and PS3 was pretty much built using the same PowerPC core. The only real difference is the console specific optimizations and refinements made by the respective companies to meet their vision of their consoles. To me that is like saying you would have to rebuild old DOS based games just to be able to play them on Windows PC. Or even better that is like saying SE completey remakes FFXI every time they release and expansion or update. Some minor things may need reconfiguring but complete rebuild from ground up is bs.

In this day and age of emulation it is entirely possible to port and add to old games to be able to utilize more current and powerful technology without as much redesign as you may think. Essentially when most programs of any kind install, one of the first thing it is designed to do is detect what it is running on which is how and why u cant run Mac apps on PC and vice versa without some middleware involved. This same technique could be used for more next gen Consoles where it would detect the user is using a PS3 or 360 and add console specific drivers, config, etc. The most they would have to do is make the core of FFXI aware of these new extensions by defining them, specify them where they are located and which points they are needed by the core and on what detected system they are utilized.
It is virtually no different than playing my PS1 games on my pc using PSXE or other emulators and with SE being SCEA authorized publisher as well as for Microsoft they have access to all the code necessary to make this happen.

[Zagen]

Again missing another point that most consoles are, in there own right, PCs as well of sorts. For isntance 360 and PS3 was pretty much built using the same PowerPC core. The only real difference is the console specific optimizations and refinements made by the respective companies to meet their vision of their consoles. To me that is like saying you would have to rebuild old DOS based games just to be able to play them on Windows PC. Or even better that is like saying SE completey remakes FFXI every time they release and expansion or update. Some minor things may need reconfiguring but complete rebuild from ground up is bs.

While consoles are built with PC hardware or hardware derived from PC counter parts developing for PC and developing exclusively for a console are not the same thing.

My PC built in 2001 originally has been upgraded with the latest hardware it was compatible with to be able to play and run Sims 3, before the hardware upgrades it wouldn't even run Sims 2 correctly. This option for upgrading is non existent in the console world.

The PS2 hasn't gotten any hardware upgrades allowing it to become more powerful than it was at launch. All consoles are the same, though 360 and PS3 do have the ability to upgrade the firmware interacting with them, though that's still not the same thing.

By the way you do have to rebuild DOS based games to run on current Windows OS unless you build a DOS emulator to run said game.

I've worked on PS2, Wii, 360, and PS3 console development. The biggest common factor on every game I worked on was getting it running on a PC first because the idea of a PC version was on the table as a reality or possibility. The games were then toned down and then ported over to the given console.

For whatever reason this wasn't how SE did it or maybe they've since lost the initial PC base or built around the PS2 code base instead. That's most likely why the PC version is a Direct X wrapper and not a true PC version.



In this day and age of emulation it is entirely possible to port and add to old games to be able to utilize more current and powerful technology without as much redesign as you may think. Essentially when most programs of any kind install, one of the first thing it is designed to do is detect what it is running on which is how and why u cant run Mac apps on PC and vice versa without some middleware involved. This same technique could be used for more next gen Consoles where it would detect the user is using a PS3 or 360 and add console specific drivers, config, etc. The most they would have to do is make the core of FFXI aware of these new extensions by defining them, specify them where they are located and which points they are needed by the core and on what detected system they are utilized.
It is virtually no different than playing my PS1 games on my pc using PSXE or other emulators and with SE being SCEA authorized publisher as well as for Microsoft they have access to all the code necessary to make this happen.

When you emulate a PS1 game on your PC that likely has specs closer to a PS3 does the PS1 game look and run like a PS3 game or a PS1 game?

While a program or game designed for a PC or Mac does indeed check for specs to ensure you can run it or what settings the program or game will run at. That's because not all PCs or Macs have the same hardware. A console game doesn't do this, at most all it needs to check is if your firmware is the one they built the game on or ahead of it which is akin to checking for operating system on a computer. While this is similar, it is different in the fact that a console game knows your hardware specs will be the same as someone else with the same console.

Drivers have a limitation determined by the hardware using them so your idea of "upgrading drivers, config, etc." doesn't solve the limitation on upgrade potential for a console game.

Your solution is nothing like emulating a PS1 game on a PC. You're still playing a PS1 game at PS1 specs not at your PC's specs when you emulate it.

[CapriciousOne]

While consoles are built with PC hardware or hardware derived from PC counter parts developing for PC and developing exclusively for a console are not the same thing.

1. My PC built in 2001 originally has been upgraded with the latest hardware it was compatible with to be able to play and run Sims 3, before the hardware upgrades it wouldn't even run Sims 2 correctly. This option for upgrading is non existent in the console world.

2. The PS2 hasn't gotten any hardware upgrades allowing it to become more powerful than it was at launch. All consoles are the same, though 360 and PS3 do have the ability to upgrade the firmware interacting with them, though that's still not the same thing.

3. By the way you do have to rebuild DOS based games to run on current Windows OS unless you build a DOS emulator to run said game.

I've worked on PS2, Wii, 360, and PS3 console development. The biggest common factor on every game I worked on was getting it running on a PC first because the idea of a PC version was on the table as a reality or possibility. The games were then toned down and then ported over to the given console.

For whatever reason this wasn't how SE did it or maybe they've since lost the initial PC base or built around the PS2 code base instead. That's most likely why the PC version is a Direct X wrapper and not a true PC version.




4. When you emulate a PS1 game on your PC that likely has specs closer to a PS3 does the PS1 game look and run like a PS3 game or a PS1 game?

While a program or game designed for a PC or Mac does indeed check for specs to ensure you can run it or what settings the program or game will run at. That's because not all PCs or Macs have the same hardware. A console game doesn't do this, at most all it needs to check is if your firmware is the one they built the game on or ahead of it which is akin to checking for operating system on a computer. While this is similar, it is different in the fact that a console game knows your hardware specs will be the same as someone else with the same console.

Drivers have a limitation determined by the hardware using them so your idea of "upgrading drivers, config, etc." doesn't solve the limitation on upgrade potential for a console game.

Your solution is nothing like emulating a PS1 game on a PC. You're still playing a PS1 game at PS1 specs not at your PC's specs when you emulate it.

1. I agree but it is for this reason that I feel that any design would be marginal at best because this exact reason. The consoles have specific hardware as opposed to the PC where programmers have to program to the least common denominator to get it to work on most machines. I feel this would greatly reduce development time overall especially since for the most part it has already been done for it to even work on a 360 or PS3 in the first place.

2. Not exactly what I meant so my mistake. While yes the original console has not been upgraded and probably isnt even made any more the fact still stands that the PS3 is more powerful. The ps2 was only running at maybe a few hundred megahertz/s but now with the ps3/360 multicore processing power why not utilize this power in an extension. Taking a bit from your explanation earlier in answer 1 wouldnt it be easier to create a next gen console wrapper with more power at it disposal and tone it down then totally rewrite the ps2 version to 360/pc/ps3? I wish they released that poll about what consoles are being used to play this game or maybe it was and I just missed it, but assuming that most are now playing this game either on pc, 360, or PS3 then i see no reason this isnt reasonable. I mean the most that will happen is that ps2 gamers wont be able to access new content.

I am also looking at this from the understanding that the firmware of a console operates much like the BIOS of the PC extending basic functionality of the console and adding routines for programmers to use to interact with said hardware and its capabilities. Now I'll be first to admit that understanding may be flawed but the whole point of upgradeable firmware was
the ability to add new functionality to the console without completely replacing the console and that this was something developers could expand upon if desired.

3. Well as far as running dos based stuff on windows I dont know. I myself am running ffXI on my ps3 and Windows XP pc in case my ps3 needs to get repaired. In any case I have never needed an emulator to run anything dos based with the exception of maybe dos based disk utilities which technically you wouldnt be running anyway on a windows os unless the os wouldnt boot and was using dos in dual boot enviro to fix it. Technically though the command prompt shell in windows is a form of emulator and I dont see why a dos program on something like a windows 7 pc wouldnt run when there is compatibilty mode to earlier versions of windows that ran old dos programs no problem. I suppose that is totally off topic however so I'll leave it alone.

4. You are only partially right about this here. When I run my ps1 games on my pc using an emulator it does still look like a ps1 game but most emulators are only built to get it to run. In the same way one could improve the quality of a video by using a larger resolution as well as higher bit rate most emulators dont do as it is alot of work I imagine. In any case since the specs PS2 games were built on were far inferior than that of 360 or PS3 some code to improve and utilize the many cores to upsample that image quality and not just use a bigger resolute could've been done but just been refused. Other than that though the emulator runs those PS1 games faster and alot smoother than the ps1 was able too as far as perfomance and stability goes, at least by my standards. The same could also do the same but as always it is about making the most money with lowest effort at this point with FFXI so I dont expect much there. If you are running an PS1 game on an emulator on your PC and dont notice a performance boost you either have a POS PC or lot of other crap bogging it down in the background.

Essentially the extensions I am referring to would completely ignore the PS2 architecture and just utilize the PS3/360 implementations of the same routines, tweaking as needed. Perfect example is that same DirectX wrapper to which you refer. You can increase the quality of the character and environment by using the config tool given for SE. It is the "Background Resolution" setting which by default is 512x512 but can be increased to 2048x2048 for even more better quality though at the expense of performance but for the 360/PS3 with so many cores I doubt this is a real issue. In any case the orginal rendering of the characters and environment on the disk would still be the same but when it reach the GPU of the 360/PS3 would be more or less upsampled to higher quality.

For all we know though SCEA as well as MS have already provided the means for SE to do it but they just refuse which wouldn't be a shock to me. My PC would only run ps1 games at ps1 specs only because teh developer has not written anything to take advantage of the resources it has access, no other reason hence the "drivers" or firmware

[Atomic_Skull]

I really think that square enix should at least hire new people to rewrite (not change) the code for xi for pc. It would give them an opportunity to clear out some of the poorly written spaghetti code, which could be then ported back to ps2 and xbox. It would also give them a clean slate to port to the vita. I don't think people would want to buy into xi on a handheld if the client is a buggy as the xbox one can be at times.

They have to rewrite it for the Vita anyway because the Vita uses OpenGL not DirectX.

[Nala]

either way they are basically rebuilding 14 from the ground, only things that are going to be the same once they finish with it is the base model designs and the back ground lore for the game, every thing else will have been reworked, gutted, revamped, renewed or otherwise revised. (as compared to its parameters upon the "official" launch)

given that 11 is a stable source of income and likely not to go away any time soon despite server mergers some level of effort to a similar scale for 11 would do wonders for its ability to sustain the gamer population.

[Atomic_Skull]

either way they are basically rebuilding 14 from the ground, only things that are going to be the same once they finish with it is the base model designs and the back ground lore for the game, every thing else will have been reworked, gutted, revamped, renewed or otherwise revised. (as compared to its parameters upon the "official" launch)

given that 11 is a stable source of income and likely not to go away any time soon despite server mergers some level of effort to a similar scale for 11 would do wonders for its ability to sustain the gamer population.

The problem is that right now SE sees continued development on FFXI as temporary until they fix FFXIV. They had originally planed for it to be a ghost town by now with everyone having switched over to FFXIV. That plan has not changed, they've just given FFXI a stay of execution as it were.

[Seiver]

back to the EVE online thing. ya the game is about as old as WoW and FFXI but the company that runs EVE made its foundation on that game and its still growing, where ffxi is vary slowly dieing. why focus mostly on a dieing game when you can build a new one that will have a draw to a new generation.

[Shadobi]

either way they are basically rebuilding 14 from the ground, only things that are going to be the same once they finish with it is the base model designs and the back ground lore for the game, every thing else will have been reworked, gutted, revamped, renewed or otherwise revised. (as compared to its parameters upon the "official" launch)

given that 11 is a stable source of income and likely not to go away any time soon despite server mergers some level of effort to a similar scale for 11 would do wonders for its ability to sustain the gamer population.

We'll by looking at the art work for Final Fantasy XIV Version 2.0 it looks complete revamp indeed, so your right. As for the base model designs Male Mithra seems to be added to the mix no idea if there be playable or NPC.
http://www.creativeuncut.com/art_final-fantasy-14-version-2_a.html

[Atomic_Skull]

back to the EVE online thing. ya the game is about as old as WoW and FFXI but the company that runs EVE made its foundation on that game and its still growing, where ffxi is vary slowly dieing. why focus mostly on a dieing game when you can build a new one that will have a draw to a new generation.

Because if they gave it proper attention it wouldn't be dying? and also because FFXIV is almost certainly going to fail anyway

[Sesh]

Because if they gave it proper attention it wouldn't be dying? and also because FFXIV is almost certainly going to fail anyway

That is the real issue most people seem to understand and SE doesn't. FFXIV currently has about 30k players or so that's what everyone says. They are going to start charging customers this December, which will certainly hurt the "Active" player status, because lets be honest there are more than a few that still have their character on FFXIV because it's free. On top of that the 2.0 wont be complete for nearly 2 years as a finished product. So let me get this straight SE (and the people speaking up against a XI remake) truly believes that during this two year period people will come in mass to subscribe to 14, players will start quitting XI to join XIV, and somehow the game will shoot up to some phenomenon level of awesomeness. Let's live in reality, over the next two years more MMOs will flood the market, SE won't do any advertising anywhere except japan and 14 will linger and sit at 100k subscribers for the next five years. Most people on this thread would rather see a remake of a dying game, than one that is already dead.

[llello]

Im glad everyone for the full revamp of FFXI in here are business majors. I see all your posts are based on investment,growth,gain, and profit margin charts and graphs, rather than your and your LS buddies want new graphics to oh an ah about and a built in interface for unlimited macro lines cause "its hard yo" to use 3 macros to change into a full gear set. 1st thing would be to stop citing pop numbers that FFXIAH tells you or your LS buddies "know for a fact" cause it makes you sound kinda silly tbh.

Please don't confuse my post as Im against the idea. Its just the same people keep quoting the same "outta the air" numbers and the same lame reasons why FFXIV will never do good. Whats so hard to understand FFXVI has a much newer engine and code base soooooo its much easier to build upon and improve than a 10+ year old engine and source.

[FrankReynolds]

You seem to be confusing new with good. I know commercials tell you to go buy something just because its new, but that doesn't always equal good. Also since you mention ROI. What are my chances of a good ROI for me if I start playing FFXIV? Because when I check my magic 8 ball, it says "Not so good". See from Squares perspective, obviously the newer game has more potential, but from a customer standpoint, its not looking so good.

[Greatguardian]

Im glad everyone for the full revamp of FFXI in here are business majors. I see all your posts are based on investment,growth,gain, and profit margin charts and graphs, rather than your and your LS buddies want new graphics to oh an ah about and a built in interface for unlimited macro lines cause "its hard yo" to use 3 macros to change into a full gear set. 1st thing would be to stop citing pop numbers that FFXIAH tells you or your LS buddies "know for a fact" cause it makes you sound kinda silly tbh.

Please don't confuse my post as Im against the idea. Its just the same people keep quoting the same "outta the air" numbers and the same lame reasons why FFXIV will never do good. Whats so hard to understand FFXVI has a much newer engine and code base soooooo its much easier to build upon and improve than a 10+ year old engine and source.

I'm glad you're a computer science major with experience in software programming and engine design.

The biggest hurdle I could imagine with regards to upgrading FFXI's engine would be the fact that the people that designed it are no longer working with Square Enix. Even then, though, SE would be much better off just licensing an existing engine regardless of which game they apply it to. Crystal Tools is extremely screwy and they've poured far more money into it at this point than it would have cost them to license a better engine. Even now, scrapping it and licensing a new engine would likely be cheaper than fixing the damn thing.

Even if they were to "upgrade" FFXI, that doesn't mean that it would have to be in CE3 or its equivalent. Because it's such an old game, the standards for basic interface and graphical upgrades are much lower than those for a brand new game. I don't care about DX11 support in FFXI, I'd be happy with DX9!

The fact of the matter is, SE corporate is screwing itself over pretty hardcore. They posted terrible losses last year, and part of their marketing plan to recoup those losses was to "revitalize existing MMOs". Unfortunately, they're trying to do this without spending very much money by forcing the 6 Devs and 1 Hamster still working on the game to work overtime and crank out whatever they can with the same, or fewer, resources than they've had previously. It's a sad situation, because you know anyone still working under those conditions is either a hardcore masochist or legitimately loves the game, but love for your work isn't going to magically add more hours to the day.

The point is really this: They could try revitalizing FFXIV-2 and hoping it will turn out well, despite the fact that its record is terrible and it had one of the worst MMO launches in recent memory. They could do this while directly competing with TERA, Star Wars: The Old Republic, Guild Wars 2, World of Warcraft, and their own flagship MMO. Or they could allocate even half as many resources to an already-established MMO with a solid market and rabid subscriber base that would gladly sell their souls for a client upgrade.

This has nothing to do with technology and everything to do with corporate executives taking an extraordinary gamble with our money because they're too stubborn to scrap a failed project.

[katoplepa]

everyone is talking about graphics and redesign... but, honestly, who really cares about graphyc?

I don't know 1 player who are quitting (or quitted) because of the out-dated graphycs... there are many mmo there are still active and played, loved from playerbase, and the graphyc is still the same...

FFXIV is beautiful to see, very great graphics, but it's a fail and nobody wants to play it, anyway, even if the graphic is good... and I'm sure when SE will start to ask fee, half the active players will quit... Friends that I know are playing it only because it's free...

in the end, FFXI is loved and played NOT for the graphics, but for the contents and because is well projected...
give us some new contents, some new areas designed for liv.99, give us new challengings events, with the same graphics, and we will continue to pay for it, for sure...

[Greatguardian]

It's not about quitting due to graphics. It's about potentially adding a new playerbase with an updated graphics engine.

Most of us who play now don't care about the graphics because we've been playing the game since the graphics were relatively good for the time, and we have a combination of nostalgia goggles and a personal investment in the game. Neither of these mean anything to people who may potentially pick up the game on steam or at best buy.

[Sesh]

give us some new contents, some new areas designed for liv.99, give us new challengings events, with the same graphics, and we will continue to pay for it, for sure...

At this point, with the skeleton crew, and the level of how much the higher ups care about anything regarding FFXI, asking for simple practical requests much less a 2.0 version is nothing but a dream. It really is to bad that they have such a disregard for FFXI and its loyal fans(aka the people that are paying for FFXIV).

[Luso]

I wouldn't say that many MMOs are still the same graphics-wise; they might have had tweaks such as advanced lightning and anti-aliasing or better support for higher resolutions, but nothing too major like what MMOs like XIV, WoW, or RuneScape are going/went through. This is because they aren't limited by a platform that can't get a hardware upgrade, aka the PS2. I'd like to know what MMOs haven't had any sort of graphics update and how many players play such, because it's all conjecture until examples are given. FFXI had minor tweaks in the form of resolutions and font recently, but the resolutions, to my knowledge, aren't really what I'd call exact as there are still two different kinds of resolutions you're dealing with here. It'd be better to combine both to save the user the trouble of figuring out what is what and what setting to put which at, but that might be just me.

Besides, I'm pretty sure most of the player base isn't asking for an actual graphical remake of FFXI: they simply want support for DX9+ (and newer graphics cards, as well) among other things, which isn't as tedious and time-consuming as remaking the engine would be, I'm sure. Or, they could do what someone else suggested and license a third party engine. Either way, it's better than what FFXI is running on now, and it would solve a whole slew of issues this game has running on the PC, at least. This would probably eliminate things such as FPS issues in content like Campaign, Besieged, etc.

Most of my friends who play this game on PC actually WANT to use the extra power they have on their card, such as VRAM, but can't because of the limitations this game has without circumventing something internally in the game.

[llello]

Lol says the person who stated that mmo's run on drama and bs politics.

[Atomic_Skull]

Lol says the person who stated that mmo's run on drama and bs politics.

I'm not sure I understand you, please explain this further.

[llello]

The point is why start drama and post stupid stuff in response to me when I haven't said anything negative to you. It detracts from the discussion.

In fact , if you read the last part of my post I actually agree an upgrade would be nice. And additional features like an improved inventory system would be welcome. I just think its foolish of people to expect SE to throw everything FFXIV related in the incinerator and allocate the personnel and funds to FFXI. Like other people have posted if that were to ever happen the staff and funds would go to a new project.

[Molech]

FFXIV is only getting the attention its getting because the game was so bad that it damaged the entire brand. Japanese people are very prideful people, there is no way they were going to just let their flagship title go down in flames just to appease FFXI players by shifting more resources to an almost 10 year old game from when the Japanese service started which is basically what you're asking them to do.

FFXIV is and was always going to be the next MMO, you can't look at SE's decisions any differently because you have 8 years invested in this game.

People are just QQ'ing that they will eventually have to accept that this game is old and the bare minimum is being done to keep people playing it.

[katoplepa]

It's not about quitting due to graphics. It's about potentially adding a new playerbase with an updated graphics engine.

Most of us who play now don't care about the graphics because we've been playing the game since the graphics were relatively good for the time, and we have a combination of nostalgia goggles and a personal investment in the game. Neither of these mean anything to people who may potentially pick up the game on steam or at best buy.

I'm not sure about the fact "new graphics = new players"
because of FFXIV is very good at graphics, but even the oldest even the newest players, don't want to play it and sure don't want to pay for it, so the graphics can't help totally, graphics can help at the start, when you see screenshot or video before the launch of the game, but when you start to play it, graphics go down in front of gameplay.

think about a FFXI with HQ graphics : sure, it's cool! the actual players will be very happy and maybe someone who quitted will reactivate, but if the contents are still the same, the cool sensations will finish within a couple of months.

so, my opinion is : more and new contents (not only battlefields, but new areas and so on) are more important then graphics and anyway an update in the graphics can't come without new contents.

[Zagen]

I'm not sure about the fact "new graphics = new players"
because of FFXIV is very good at graphics, but even the oldest even the newest players, don't want to play it and sure don't want to pay for it, so the graphics can't help totally, graphics can help at the start, when you see screenshot or video before the launch of the game, but when you start to play it, graphics go down in front of gameplay.
Better graphics has always brought in new players if this wasn't the case the push for increasing graphical potential in video games over the past 10 years wouldn't have been so strong. Though it doesn't keep those players if the game play isn't there to back up the pretty looks.

[Vold]

FFXIV is only getting the attention its getting because the game was so bad that it damaged the entire brand. Japanese people are very prideful people, there is no way they were going to just let their flagship title go down in flames just to appease FFXI players by shifting more resources to an almost 10 year old game from when the Japanese service started which is basically what you're asking them to do.

FFXIV is and was always going to be the next MMO, you can't look at SE's decisions any differently because you have 8 years invested in this game.

People are just QQ'ing that they will eventually have to accept that this game is old and the bare minimum is being done to keep people playing it.Meme: It's okay to continue to pay 12.95+ a month on a MMO and not get the expected service for your dollars. Just say that it's old and the dollars are for keeping the servers up so you can sleep better at night and don't ask any questions. K, got it. Glad we get these memes. We wouldn't know wtf was going on, otherwise.

[Runespider]

All I want from my FFXI is more money spent on good content, graphics updates although very nice would not alone keep me playing. I had a very pretty FFXIV on my pc for a long time and logged on twice at most.

Logging into FFXI and having nothing to do is the game killer (adding cheap shallow content with horrible drop rates is not doing it), add more staff, increase the games budget, release more expansions/addons and keep us paying you for many years to come.

[Miiyo]

Everything that everyone is complaining about for ffxi... new areas, new content, updated graphics... it's all right there in FFXIV 2.0. They're adding jobs, adding male kitties and female tanks. It'll officially be the next FFXI. Really, it won't be anything revolutionary because you level, you quest, you kill bosses. It's the formula for mmo's. What makes a good mmo is how you have to go about doing these tasks that you'll constantly repeat. No, we can't just do that to ffxi because the game is old and coded so much differently coded. All FFXI can do is add more zones, and add more nm's. It's very limited on it's growth without having to completely disregard all current content. FFXI would have to become FFXI.2. A new game. Aka, FFXIV. So there's an extra V on the end of the name. Get over it.

I'm sorry but I'm not convinced that the fail of 14 (and 13 for that matter) wasn't planned. I just see a really good marketing scheme by gaining immense popularity by being such a renown company and blowing these games, and then the sudden change of heart in customer service and communication, and what you would gain by creating an epic fail and turning into a glorious game. Everyone didn't know FFXIV or FFXIII. Everyone does now because of all the horrible press. People are watching SE right now. Everything they release is being paid attention to. Especially their most popular series. Bad news always travels faster than good news. So now that these games have their fame, for good or bad, what happens when they make it great? Risky, and some definitely won't give it another try, but I only see them gaining from this.

[cidbahamut]

I'm sorry but I'm not convinced that the fail of 14 (and 13 for that matter) wasn't planned. I just see a really good marketing scheme by gaining immense popularity by being such a renown company and blowing these games, and then the sudden change of heart in customer service and communication, and what you would gain by creating an epic fail and turning into a glorious game. Everyone didn't know FFXIV or FFXIII. Everyone does now because of all the horrible press. People are watching SE right now. Everything they release is being paid attention to. Especially their most popular series. Bad news always travels faster than good news. So now that these games have their fame, for good or bad, what happens when they make it great? Risky, and some definitely won't give it another try, but I only see them gaining from this.

I'm sorry but this is absolutely batshit fucking insane.

No one intentionally sabotages a project that has had millions put into just so they can try to pull some extra press by making a miraculous comeback.

[Sesh]

Everyone didn't know FFXIV or FFXIII. Everyone does now because of all the horrible press.

Sorry but the only people that know about 14 are people that were already playing XI, and it will probably stay that way for the next few years. 9/10 gamers have a vague clue about FFXI and even less of a % know or care about anything FFXIV related.

[TybudX]

Japanese people are very prideful people, there is no way they were going to just let their flagship title go down in flames just to appease FFXI players by shifting more resources to an almost 10 year old game from when the Japanese service started which is basically what you're asking them to do.

The problem with this situation is that SE has never had a clue as to why one title was successful while others were absolute shit, and they have such a huge fan base that going off of sales alone is a terrible indicator as to which titles were actually good. Right now they are propping up a terrible game with continued sales from a relatively successful game. There is ironing there if you look hard enough.

Also, SE can take their pride and shove it up their asses. They have been trying for years to figure out what the "American" consumers want in a game. They came up with flashy graphics and what amounts to playable books. We used to get Tactics, Chrono Trigger, FFVI, Vagrant Story. Now we get FFX and XIII. We went from well thought out battle systems with great story lines to the same rehashed neo-cyber punk emo BS, turn the page and play paper - rock - scissors, watch the game play itself. Really? There's more ironing there.

I couldn't care less about a graphical upgrade to FFXI, I just wish that the people in charge of the flow of money at SE could grow a set of eyes on the back of their necks. At least then they would be able to see what's going on while their heads are planted firmly up their own asses.

[Helel]

People keep posting that because FF14 is "new" it's more attractive than FFXI (for SE). This is just plain wrong. Anyone who's played other MMOs will tell you that the majority of the subscribers are the ones who signed up from day one. People don't just randomly decide to try out new MMOs on a whim (most don't). Many people, including myself, enjoy the rush to the highest level, to the best gear, etc. but that's all far past now. FFXIV is actually very old for the MMO market, and trying to revive it is ridiculous. It ALWAYS fails, every, single, time. SE is just wasting their time.

Here are some examples:

Asheron's Call 2: also similar to the original like FFXIV. They eventually shut down the servers because of a crappy launch.
Everquest 2: still alive, but numbers are around FFXIV I would guess. I heard they did attempt to revamp this game quite a bit, but still it's far behind XI.

I played both of those games, and I've personally experienced how a MMO dies. FFXIV is clearly on that track. SE should just let it linger in existence until it fades away--like it's going to do anyway.

[Xellith]

2.0 will have to be something epic in order to make FFXIV survive. It's got all the subscribers it's going to get until this fabled 2.0 which will be around in 1-2 years... Even then I honestly don't know if re-marketing it is gonna do the trick. The damage has been done.

[CapriciousOne]

The potential ROI for 14 is higher than it is for 11 because of 11's age.

Keyword meaning not guaranteed. Most of the money being used to do all this revamping is coming for previous Final Fantasy games including Final Fantasy XI.

[CapriciousOne]

Except it doesn't when that game is still making profits without that additional maintenance.

True but they are only doing that because they know there is no decent alternative MMO for the PS2/PS3 and are taking advantage of it. It's called a monopoly. When a Rival MMO not made them comes into the marketplace then they will act like they care.

[Luso]

Actually, Free Realms and DC Universe Online are doing decently on the PS3; both also have PC counterparts, but they are available on the PS3, too, much like XIV will be. Also, since both are using a F2P model, I imagine that the amount of players as well as micro-transactions will only increase as time moves on.

[Zagen]

Actually, Free Realms and DC Universe Online are doing decently on the PS3; both also have PC counterparts, but they are available on the PS3, too, much like XIV will be. Also, since both are using a F2P model, I imagine that the amount of players as well as micro-transactions will only increase as time moves on.

Do you know if either of them will support cross platform playing? Looking this up for DC Universe atm but maybe you'll respond before I find it.

Edit: Just found it in the FAQ console and PC can't play together.

[Olor]

Making a successfull mmo is not something you can just do, the vast majority fail...so if you have a successfull one (yes even if it's 8+ years old) you keep it running the best you can for as long as you can.
.

Yeah, if people can continue to pump out expansions for Everquest 2 and WoW, which are in the same generation as XI, there really isn't much of an excuse to abandon XI players/let the game languish

[Olor]

When you're looking at 8 years of content that you'd be catching up to compared to 1-2 years the 8 years is very daunting and discouraging. If you don't see it that way, that's cool but you're in the minority.

Yeah... I guess that is why WoW never gets any new subs

[Zagen]

Yeah... I guess that is why WoW never gets any new subs


WoW is easy to jump in and walks you through the first few levels, actually up until around 20 or so it holds your hand. Even then quests/missions never really stop holding your hand they just tone it down.
WoW is also free to play now for the lower levels.
WoW gives new and old players incentive to play new characters (Hi, rested EXP being character specific and not account specific).
WoW allows the option of a new player being "power leveled", through content. FFXI does this now to a degree but its much weaker. Not saying this is a good thing just that it is a factor for new players or a friend of a friend joining the game.
WoW isn't crippled by locking the game's potential by a console.


I could keep going on about how many things WoW did right to gain the subscription base it has and to continue gaining new subscribers but that doesn't help FFXI because these are things the devs could see on their own and "steal" for FFXI or FFXIV but they've chosen not to in a lot of cases.

[Olor]

Honestly there are a lot of reasons people could give why building on XI has a lower potential ROI than rebuilding XIV, but "too much content to catch up with" shouldn't be one of them

[Zagen]

Honestly there are a lot of reasons people could give why building on XI has a lower potential ROI than rebuilding XIV, but "too much content to catch up with" shouldn't be one of them

I never said that in and of itself it was. It is a factor tied in to what is putting off new players, not the content itself or really the amount of time it might take but the fact that there is so much content no one is doing anymore.

The last time I reactivated my WoW account (Wrath of the Lich King had just come out if I remember right) I created 3 new characters 1 to play with a few friends in a static, 2 others to fill the time while they were doing endgame on their mains. While leveling all 3 characters I was almost always around lower level characters doing the same quests/missions as me.

Outside of taking my mule through Gusgen Mines 19-30 I was solo the whole time, even with my flag up.

WoW is obviously doing a lot of things right when it comes to the outdated content, some of which I mentioned to many other likely factors involved that FFXI doesn't have going for it, but it doesn't really matter that WoW has them. FFXI doesn't meaning a lower appeal to new players, meaning another notch against being a good ROI candidate.

[Olor]

But who is to say that a XI revamp wouldn't be able to include systems to make the game more appealing to new players? Nevermind that doing a revamp itself (and advertising it) would bring in new players, which is half the problem at the moment - still - it isn't difficult at all to get "caught up" on anything essential in XI right now.

I don't think players are put off by content - by horrific time sinks? Sure - but not by content.

Also as someone who is quite familiar with XIV - I would say the situation for a new player in that game is MUCH MUCH WORSE. Pretty much everyone is capped on multiple crafts (which they probably used bots to level cause it is excruciating) and you NEED multiple jobs leveled to high levels even do 1 job well (gladiator is a perfect example) and the grind is sort of soul destroying... sure there is hardly any content to "catch up" on, but I don't think the game being almost barren of content should be considered a selling point.

[Zagen]

But who is to say that a XI revamp wouldn't be able to include systems to make the game more appealing to new players? Nevermind that doing a revamp itself (and advertising it) would bring in new players, which is half the problem at the moment - still - it isn't difficult at all to get "caught up" on anything essential in XI right now.

I don't think players are put off by content - by horrific time sinks? Sure - but not by content.

No one can say for sure, all they can do is look at current information available. XI is running on a 10 year old core engine, supporting a deprecated console, functioning on PC through a wrapper meaning expansion is severely limited, 360 is likely running trough the same direct x wrapper as the PC.

PS2 limitations. Take away the PS2 and those become limitations of an engine designed to function on a PS2.

All content is a Time Sink >.> And again it isn't the content itself its the fact that there is so much content no one is doing anymore and some of that content is still important to the current content.

Edit:


Also as someone who is quite familiar with XIV - I would say the situation for a new player in that game is MUCH MUCH WORSE. Pretty much everyone is capped on multiple crafts (which they probably used bots to level cause it is excruciating) and you NEED multiple jobs leveled to high levels even do 1 job well (gladiator is a perfect example) and the grind is sort of soul destroying... sure there is hardly any content to "catch up" on, but I don't think the game being almost barren of content should be considered a selling point.

Oddly enough it is because it can be spun as room for growth, more so room for growth that welcomes a new player base because there is more content for them to do with old players because the old players couldn't have done it yet. I'm not saying this is a great argument just one that I've seen spun successfully in the game industry several times before.

[Olor]

Spin might get people in the door for a first try... but given how badly they burned everyone who originally bought the game, they will need a heck of a lot more than spin to make XIV pay for itself, let alone make money.


Much easier to spin a relaunch of a game which didn't go down in flames, imo - there are probably a crap ton of players who dropped the game over the years who have some fond memories who would probably come back if they saw a good advertising campaign that specifically addressed some of the big reasons ppl quit (high time investment - low reward was probably the biggest one)

Imagine a welcome to Vanadiel campaign that included a new expansion, with a focused pitch about how much easier it is to get into the game now (complete with a smattering of revamped lower level content/quests - especially ones that LEAD new players to maze of shakrami and gusgen etc at appropriate levels so they can easily get in on the GoV action) - doesn't even need to be a lot of new lower leveled content - just enough to ease new players into the revamped leveling system

If they added a whole new nation on a different continent - made speedy travel more accessible at a lower level (maws etc - and more teleport npcs!) - and allowed new players to roll as a member of that nation it would be even better, but really, just adding a real expansion (with some solo-low-man content for all levels - but heavy on 6 man (max) endgame) would do wonders for the game if they actually advertised it a bit.

[Zagen]

Spin might get people in the door for a first try... but given how badly they burned everyone who originally bought the game, they will need a heck of a lot more than spin to make XIV pay for itself, let alone make money.


Much easier to spin a relaunch of a game which didn't go down in flames, imo - there are probably a crap ton of players who dropped the game over the years who have some fond memories who would probably come back if they saw a good advertising campaign that specifically addressed some of the big reasons ppl quit (high time investment - low reward was probably the biggest one)

Imagine a welcome to Vanadiel campaign that included a new expansion, with a focused pitch about how much easier it is to get into the game now (complete with a smattering of revamped lower level content/quests - especially ones that LEAD new players to maze of shakrami and gusgen etc at appropriate levels so they can easily get in on the GoV action) - doesn't even need to be a lot of new lower leveled content - just enough to ease new players into the revamped leveling system

If they added a whole new nation on a different continent - made speedy travel more accessible at a lower level (maws etc - and more teleport npcs!) - and allowed new players to roll as a member of that nation it would be even better, but really, just adding a real expansion (with some solo-low-man content for all levels - but heavy on 6 man (max) endgame) would do wonders for the game if they actually advertised it a bit.

Your ideas cost much much more money than SE's ideas for FFXIV. Why you might be asking? When looking at both game's life span, to make FFXI survive 2 things have to happen PS2 must be dropped or no longer updated, and the core engine must be rebuilt for PC, 360, and PS3 respectively. Either individually or PC downgrades for 360 and PS3. All of this equals more money and/or time invested. More money invested means less potential ROI in the same time frame or a slower potential ROI, neither of these are things investors want to hear.

That right there makes FFXI a bad investment not to mention the other factors (outdated content current players don't do, large top heavy player base, etc.) when comparing it to XIV.

[Luso]

I don't think the core engine has to be remade entirely; maybe for more things such as the inclusion of flying mounts, jumping, etc, but I think most people prefer adjustments or additions that could be made if the limiting factors weren't a) the amount of RAM the PS2 has and b) the amount of hard drive space the PS2 has left. The 360 isn't and shouldn't be included in this, because it has access to 512 MB of RAM minus the amount of RAM needed to operate a background OS (which would be quite minimal) and the option to increase hard drive space (plus, if you even plan to play XI on the 360, all game boxes have a notice on the back and in the manual stating you need at least a 20 GB hard disk to play and that you should keep a reserve amount for future updates). It isn't bound by a strict 40 GB hard disk with an apparent 10 GB or so partition-size for FFXI. Correct me if I'm wrong about the latter, anyone.

I would prefer higher res. textures, really, as oppsoed to a whole graphical remake. The geometry is fine, still; for a PS2 game, XI's use of polygons is still good to me. However, with textures, I believe that dev's start out with higher resolution textures and then downscale them as needed in order to fit the specs of platforms accessing the game. I'm sure that for the PC and possibly 360 clients, this could be a possible update without really changing anything engine-related other than requiring more VRAM and possibly more CPU power given the way the game generates its imagery. Still might be a thing to look at.

That, or just update the DirectX version used with the game to a much higher version; if that was all we could get in terms of graphics, I'd be more for it since a lot of the issues I have with XI are technical-based and not graphics-based (FPS, collisions of objects, etc).

Several things that could be fixed include item space, new areas and not just re-skinned versions, higher resolutions which mean that things the dev's wanted to include but couldn't now can (mini-map as an example), possibly more enemies and/or NPCs on-screen due to increase of VRAM available in events such as Besieged, Campaign, etc. I for one would love this, but hopefully SE tells us what the survey they requested we take was about.

[Atomic_Skull]

360 is likely running trough the same direct x wrapper as the PC

Xbox 360 only has DirectX 9, it does not have the DLLs for previous versions of DirectX. Microsoft saw no need to create 360 versions of those because nobody would ever need them.

[FrankReynolds]

Your ideas cost much much more money than SE's ideas for FFXIV. Why you might be asking? When looking at both game's life span, to make FFXI survive 2 things have to happen PS2 must be dropped or no longer updated, and the core engine must be rebuilt for PC, 360, and PS3 respectively. Either individually or PC downgrades for 360 and PS3. All of this equals more money and/or time invested. More money invested means less potential ROI in the same time frame or a slower potential ROI, neither of these are things investors want to hear.

That right there makes FFXI a bad investment not to mention the other factors (outdated content current players don't do, large top heavy player base, etc.) when comparing it to XIV.

Your just making things up. First off, you have no Idea what that costs to do. Second, ROI - I'm not sure that means what you think it does. We're talking about completely overhauling 2 games. Before the over haul, game 1 has 10 times the subscriber base of game 2. After the overhaul, we have 2 newly rebuilt games, game 2 has made 1/10 the profit of game 1 during the lengthy overhaul (if that), and now needs to increase sales ten fold to even come close to game 1. In order for game 2 to surpass the profits of game one and thus become the better return on investment, 2 things need to happen. Game 2 needs to A) maintain its new 300k player base for at least 2 years, and B) game 1 needs to fail entirely in those 2 years. Game 2 then needs to survive longer than game 1 would have given the same opportunity. Just looking at that you see that game 2 possesses limited potential for ROI.

All of that is completely ignoring the money that has already been thrown out the window on FFXIV. The chances of even breaking even on investments won't be realized for years to come, if ever.

Rebuilding FFXI might bring in some new players, it might not. Adding new content will likely keep the player base at about the levels that they are now. Given the fact that most people did not quit FFXI to go play FFXIV, it is likely that the 2 games could co-exist.

With the number of players that FFXI has, it wouldn't take long to recoup the costs of a rebuild, and considering that the other option is to do nothing and lose all the players, it really isn't even a risk. It's either A) slowly stop making money because the game withers and dies, or B) invest money in it and keep it making money. The only question really is: How much of an overhaul to do, in order to maximize profits.

[Mirage]

Xbox 360 only has DirectX 9, it does not have the DLLs for previous versions of DirectX. Microsoft saw no need to create 360 versions of those because nobody would ever need them.

Then maybe SE made a dx8->dx9 wrapper for it themselves :p

[Zagen]

Your just making things up. First off, you have no Idea what that costs to do.

Costs to upgrade from Vicious Engine 1 to 2 was at the time (4 years ago now) going to cost the company I was working for $35k not including the programmer time for them to learn the changes from 1 to 2, not including their time to learn how to upgrade the titles customized programming from VE1 to VE2. The estimate on the project wast at minimum $100k when accounting for the additional programming time as well as another 6 months which would have been 250k-300k from a missed milestone.

Keep in mind these are prices on a lower end costing public engine.


Second, ROI - I'm not sure that means what you think it does.

Return On Investment? Nah no clue because I haven't had to convince investors why X game design additions were worth the time and money they would take in addition to what was already planned or later explained which things could be cut without hurting their ROI.


We're talking about completely overhauling 2 games. Before the over haul, game 1 has 10 times the subscriber base of game 2. After the overhaul, we have 2 newly rebuilt games, game 2 has made 1/10 the profit of game 1 during the lengthy overhaul (if that), and now needs to increase sales ten fold to even come close to game 1. In order for game 2 to surpass the profits of game one and thus become the better return on investment, 2 things need to happen. Game 2 needs to A) maintain its new 300k player base for at least 2 years, and B) game 1 needs to fail entirely in those 2 years. Game 2 then needs to survive longer than game 1 would have given the same opportunity. Just looking at that you see that game 2 possesses limited potential for ROI.

Upgrading the Graphics Engine and Server program upgrades do not equal a complete overhaul. Still missing the AI and core engine at the very least (assuming the AI isn't being handled by the core engine itself in FFXIV).

[Sesh]

If XI has 300,000 active subscribing accounts that means we're feeding SE $46,800,000 a year give or take. XIV currently has about 30,000 active subscribing accounts which means XIV right now XIV is bringing in a big fat $0 for SE in its first year. (not including game sales etc cause we could just add abyssea and mini expansions etc blah blah)

Let's say SE overhauls both 11 and 14 and releases them in January 2012. Let's also say (for fun) each overhaul cost 100 million each which game would start to turn a profit first? Which game would be the better investment? Would new gamers automatically subscribe to XIV because it has a newer title if XI has the same graphics and quality? What would make 14 turn into a success story that it turns such a bigger profit than its older sibling.

This is my prediction that I really hope doesn't come true. SE will start charging for XIV later this year, something like half of its free subscribers will quit. Over the next two years the population of XIV may slowly rise, but it will be forgotten by anyone who is not Japanese because SE will not market outside of Japan. SE will continue to put extremely small amounts of effort and money towards FFXI, and the population will decline and rightfully so. In 2-3 years time both games will sit at around 100k subscribers until the day maybe 5 years down the line, SE finally realizes that we were right and they're a bunch of tools.

[Atomic_Skull]

If XI has 300,000 active subscribing accounts that means we're feeding SE $46,800,000 give or take. XIV currently has about 30,000 active subscribing accounts which means XIV right now XIV is bringing in a big fat $0 for SE in its first year. (not including game sales etc cause we could just add abyssea and mini expansions etc blah blah)

Let's say SE overhauls both 11 and 14 and releases them in January 2012. Let's also say (for fun) each overhaul cost 100 million each which game would start to turn a profit first? Which game would be the better investment? Would new gamers automatically subscribe to XIV because it has a newer title if XI has the same graphics and quality? What would make 14 turn into a success story that it turns such a bigger profit than its younger sibling.

This is my prediction that I really hope doesn't come true. SE will start charging for XIV later this year, something like half of its free subscribers will quit. Over the next two years the population of XIV may slowly rise, but it will be forgotten by anyone who is not Japanese because SE will not market outside of Japan. SE will continue to put extremely small amounts of effort and money towards FFXI, and the population will decline and rightfully so. In 2-3 years time both games will sit at around 100k subscribers until the day maybe 5 years down the line, SE finally realizes that we were right and they're a bunch of tools.

They're not going to do something that will encourage players to stay in FFXI rather than switch over to FFXIV.

The thing you have to understand is that SE wants FFXI to slowly fade away while everyone switches to FFXIV. They have taken an "all or nothing" stance on this. FFXIV must succeed at all costs and they are willing to risk everything to achieve this even if it means burning their MMO department to the ground in the event that the plan fails.

[Leonlionheart]

If XI has 300,000 active subscribing accounts that means we're feeding SE $46,800,000 give or take. XIV currently has about 30,000 active subscribing accounts which means XIV right now XIV is bringing in a big fat $0 for SE in its first year. (not including game sales etc cause we could just add abyssea and mini expansions etc blah blah)

Let's say SE overhauls both 11 and 14 and releases them in January 2012. Let's also say (for fun) each overhaul cost 100 million each which game would start to turn a profit first? Which game would be the better investment? Would new gamers automatically subscribe to XIV because it has a newer title if XI has the same graphics and quality? What would make 14 turn into a success story that it turns such a bigger profit than its younger sibling.

This is my prediction that I really hope doesn't come true. SE will start charging for XIV later this year, something like half of its free subscribers will quit. Over the next two years the population of XIV may slowly rise, but it will be forgotten by anyone who is not Japanese because SE will not market outside of Japan. SE will continue to put extremely small amounts of effort and money towards FFXI, and the population will decline and rightfully so. In 2-3 years time both games will sit at around 100k subscribers until the day maybe 5 years down the line, SE finally realizes that we were right and they're a bunch of tools.

Older sibling*

[Sesh]

They're not going to do something that will encourage players to stay in FFXI rather than switch over to FFXIV.

The thing you have to understand is that SE wants FFXI to slowly fade away while everyone switches to FFXIV. They have taken an "all or nothing" stance on this. FFXIV must succeed at all costs and they are willing to risk everything to achieve this even if it means burning their MMO department to the ground in the event that the plan fails.

I agree. This is why at very least we have to keep making threads like this to hope that SE realizes what a stupid plan that is.


Older sibling*

Ya meant that lol :P

[FrankReynolds]

Costs to upgrade from Vicious Engine 1 to 2 was at the time (4 years ago now) going to cost the company I was working for $35k not including the programmer time for them to learn the changes from 1 to 2, not including their time to learn how to upgrade the titles customized programming from VE1 to VE2. The estimate on the project wast at minimum $100k when accounting for the additional programming time as well as another 6 months which would have been 250k-300k from a missed milestone.

Keep in mind these are prices on a lower end costing public engine.

Even if the cost was $35 million, The return on FFXI would be better because it already brings in that much annually.


Return On Investment? Nah no clue because I haven't had to convince investors why X game design additions were worth the time and money they would take in addition to what was already planned or later explained which things could be cut without hurting their ROI.


See above.


Upgrading the Graphics Engine and Server program upgrades do not equal a complete overhaul. Still missing the AI and core engine at the very least (assuming the AI isn't being handled by the core engine itself in FFXIV).

Out of curiousity, were you the one who sold them on FFXIV's design? Because that would explain a lot.

[Zagen]

Even if the cost was $35 million, The return on FFXI would be better because it already brings in that much annually.

You're speaking as a gamer who is attached to FFXI, investors don't care about you personally or any of us past the money we pay to play. They don't care about how things are done just how long, how much it takes for them to get results, and how much the profits will be. This isn't how it should but it is.


Out of curiousity, were you the one who sold them on FFXIV's design? Because that would explain a lot.
LOL no.

[cidbahamut]

You're speaking as a gamer who is attached to FFXI, investors don't care about you personally or any of us past the money we pay to play. They don't care about how things are done just how long, how much it takes for them to get results, and how much the profits will be. This isn't how it should but it is.

If this were the case they would've written off FFXIV as a loss by now and moved on to other projects.

[Alhanelem]

Let's say SE overhauls both 11 and 14 and releases them in January 2012. Let's also say (for fun) each overhaul cost 100 million each which game would start to turn a profit first? Which game would be the better investment?You're not making a proper comparison here. If both games revamped, which one would increase it's current income level by more? It's highly unlikely that a major revamp of FFXI is going to bring in a lot of new customers. FFXI has been around for a long time and is already very well known and still has a userbase above what the typical random start-up MMO achieves (which isn't very much when you consider the rising number of fail MMOs). Because FFXIV's current user base is relatively low, it has much more room to gain customer base with the proper improvements.


If this were the case they would've written off FFXIV as a loss by now and moved on to other projects. The fact that they haven't tells me that they honestly feel they can succeed with the project. Of course, since this is an FFXI forum, nobody wants that to happen, but hey, fandom is a fickle thing.

[Zagen]

If this were the case they would've written off FFXIV as a loss by now and moved on to other projects.
A failed title in a spin off genre wouldn't hurt the over all brand, look at Tiberium 3rd person shooter that got canned, and hasn't heavily damaged the C&C line of RTS games. A failed title in a genre you're looking to establish your company's future (and thus financial investments) in as more than a 1 trick pony is a killer. If FFXI dies tomorrow it dies a success, FFXIV can't say that, and if FFXIV dies a failure you can bet SE's future in the MMORPG genre is done. If SE's future in MMORPGs is done then the potential for huge profits is also gone.

Console games make profits but not to the potential of a successful MMO does.

Super Mario Bros is supposedly the highest selling console game of all time with 40 million copies sold. Lets attach the current $60 price to that number (yes I know this game didn't/doesn't sell for that much). So at the best of the best possible for a console game you've made 2.4 billion dollars over 26 years.

Now lets look at the best of the best profit wise MMO WoW. Last subscription base I've heard thrown around was 8 million users so I'll use that. At $15 a month that's 120 million a month or 1.4 billion a year, so in 2 years WoW makes 480 million more than the best selling console game could have made in 26 years.

Hopefully you can see why an investor sees the cost of fixing FFXIV as worth it and why they haven't just written it off.

[cidbahamut]

That of course completely ignores the problem of market saturation and the problems inherent with trying to put your own products in direct competition with each other.

[Zagen]

That of course completely ignores the problem of market saturation and the problems inherent with trying to put your own products in direct competition with each other.

Oh lets look at lower end numbers:

Say a console game sells 250k copies at $40. So that's 10 million dollars.

Say a MMO sells 100k copies at $0 and has a subscription fee of $10. So that's 1 million a month or 12 million in a year...

Again still a better investment looking at lower end numbers.

[cidbahamut]

I feel we're talking past each other.

MMOs can make much better returns than console games. We agree on this.

An MMO makes more money because it is a perpetual product, but one with a finite field of customers. What happens when you try to maintain two products in direct competition with each other? When targeting the same demographic for each product, the results will likely be a nearly identical stream of revenue now split between the two products. Same money, different piles, but now with the added risks that come with a decrease in an MMO's population and the huge price tag of developing the second product.

Please, feel free to enlighten me as to how my assessment is incorrect.

[Zagen]

I feel we're talking past each other.

MMOs can make much better returns than console games. We agree on this.

An MMO makes more money because it is a perpetual product, but one with a finite field of customers. What happens when you try to maintain two products in direct competition with each other? When targeting the same demographic for each product, the results will likely be a nearly identical stream of revenue now split between the two products. Same money, different piles, but now with the added risks that come with a decrease in an MMO's population and the huge price tag of developing the second product.

Please, feel free to enlighten me as to how my assessment is incorrect.

I see the problem now, you're assuming SE is attempting to maintain FFXI and FFXIV for the years to come, I see it as a few others have, FFXI is being strung along until FFXIV is ready and FFXI will be kept alive but not updated to the same degree in hopes those players shift from FFXI to FFXIV and FFXI can get shut down. I know they said they wanted to have 2 MMOs at a time years ago but looking at what they have or haven't done since then says that idea went out the window.

Though that isn't to say it isn't possible, I mean in the past a company has held 2 titles in the same genre successfully, look at Starcraft and Warcraft. EA's racing line ups. Activisions action adventures. A company cares not if a player is splitting their time between two of their games and the same concept is carried over to MMOs assuming they are in different game worlds.

Edit: It isn't the best example but all 3 times I started/reactivated my WoW account I kept FFXI active because while in the same genre they are 2 different games. The same is true about FFXI and FFXIV.

[cidbahamut]

And I'm saying that's an absolutely terrible business plan that completely disregards the principle of ROI because the costs to maintain FFXI properly would be a fraction of what it cost to build and rebuild FFXIV and the profits from extending FFXI's lifespan would be better as well seeing as how it's already established and successful.

MMOs are a completely different beast from other games. They are very nearly exclusive by their very nature. Maintaining two of them does not equate to doubling your revenue. What it does equate to is significantly increasing your maintenance costs and eroding the strength of both titles as they compete against each other for player population.

[Zagen]

And I'm saying that's an absolutely terrible business plan that completely disregards the principle of ROI because the costs to maintain FFXI properly would be a fraction of what it cost to build and rebuild FFXIV and the profits from extending FFXI's lifespan would be better as well seeing as how it's already established and successful.

MMOs are a completely different beast from other games. They are very nearly exclusive by their very nature. Maintaining two of them does not equate to doubling your revenue. What it does equate to is significantly increasing your maintenance costs and eroding the strength of both titles as they compete against each other for player population.

I don't disagree its a terrible business plan. But then again I feel that MMOs on a console are terrible business plans because by designing a MMO for a console you're giving it a limited life span. Because FFXI was designed for PS2 vs. designed for PC then ported to PS2 (at the time that decision was likely made was the same time SE believed FFXI would survive for 2 years at most) it becomes a bad investment option as the years go on.

Look at how many players are crying for real story content updates, expansions, major upgrades, etc. When looking at the demands of the player base with the "limitless" tech of a computer they are easily met. Making it a great investment to keep putting money into because the profits almost always will overcome the initial costs. When looking at the demands with the limited tech restraints of the PS2 and how FFXI's core was made (i.e. direct x wrapper instead of a PC client) these demands have a much lower chance of the profits overcoming the initial costs.

Edit: I just noticed you seem to be assuming FFXI's proper maintenance for the years to come isn't expensive when it is. "PS2 limitations" wouldn't be a concern if the game was properly coded to be a MMO that could last 20 years.

[katoplepa]

anyway, SE can't read minds and can't pilot the people's feelings: I'll never play 14 even if they'll do the 3.0 version of it, and I have a lot of friends who are thinking like me, if they shut down 11 I'll say goodbye to MMO, I don't restart from zero another MMO (fail like 14 too).

if 11 is still loved and played, a serious company HAVE TO continue supporting the game their customers want to play.

[cidbahamut]

Edit: I just noticed you seem to be assuming FFXI's proper maintenance for the years to come isn't expensive when it is. "PS2 limitations" wouldn't be a concern if the game was properly coded to be a MMO that could last 20 years.
Nah, I know it's gonna be expensive. Moreso if they ever do a proper PC rebuild of the core engine. All I'm assuming is that the costs to maintain the game are distinctly lower than the cost of building an entirely new MMO twice over(which is basically what's happened with FFXIV).

[Olor]

So we all agree - starving XI in the hopes that XIV can even ever break even is a terrible idea? Yes?

[cidbahamut]

So we all agree - starving XI in the hopes that XIV can even ever break even is a terrible idea? Yes?
Yes.

More TLC for FFXI please.

[Zagen]

anyway, SE can't read minds and can't pilot the people's feelings: I'll never play 14 even if they'll do the 3.0 version of it, and I have a lot of friends who are thinking like me, if they shut down 11 I'll say goodbye to MMO, I don't restart from zero another MMO (fail like 14 too).

if 11 is still loved and played, a serious company HAVE TO continue supporting the game their customers want to play.

Once upon a time I had this same mind set, I've quit FFXI before, even deleted my character only to make a new one and start from 0. I had friends invite/re-invite me to join them in FFXI, WoW, LoTR Online, Guild Wars, City of Heroes, Champions Online, DC Universe and probably others I can't remember. I haven't taken every offer up but I have taken a few offers up before.

Once FFXI dies I'll likely try FFXIV again and if the changes made make me happy I'll stay if not I'll leave and find something else to do with my spare time.

I'm not saying you're gonna do the same thing you or your friends might?

Edit:

So we all agree - starving XI in the hopes that XIV can even ever break even is a terrible idea? Yes?
As a FFXI player yes I agree.

Edit2:

Nah, I know it's gonna be expensive. Moreso if they ever do a proper PC rebuild of the core engine. All I'm assuming is that the costs to maintain the game are distinctly lower than the cost of building an entirely new MMO twice over(which is basically what's happened with FFXIV).
Rebuilding the core engine is required to maintain FFXI for the years to come. So those costs are part of maintaining it.
FFXIV was built once over and relatively cheaper parts of it are being rebuilt so it isn't being rebuilt twice over.

[Camate]

I understand your feelings about the differences between FINAL FANTASY XI and FINAL FANTASY XIV. Please understand that these games are very different entities and just as it was stated before, the operational policies as well as the size of the development team are very different as well.

Just to clarify one misconception I have been noticing for a while now...

"PS2 limitations" is not a factor for adding new areas to the game and we will in fact be adding new areas in the future, so please do not worry about this.

[Kalilla]

By new, is it new new or just recolored new? :X

*hides*

Edit: Also, Camate I miss your pumpkin head D:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/images/avatars/ffxi_mog02_halloween.jpg

[Zagen]

"PS2 limitations" is not a factor for adding new areas to the game and we will in fact be adding new areas in the future, so please do not worry about this.

Can you elaborate on this? When I and a few others (maybe more than a few) have mentioned "new areas" we are talking 100% unique zones not a rehashed zone such as Abyssea and WoTG was full of.

[Kalilla]

I didn't mind WoTG's areas, it actually worked with that expansion. Abyssea on the other hand didn't in my opinion.

[Zagen]

I didn't mind WoTG's areas, it actually worked with that expansion. Abyssea on the other hand didn't in my opinion.
Neither did I because as you said it worked with the story. It was just for reference because I'm curious if we will be getting new zones besides the 1 dungeon crawl.

[Olor]

I understand your feelings about the differences between FINAL FANTASY XI and FINAL FANTASY XIV. Please understand that these games are very different entities and just as it was stated before, the operational policies as well as the size of the development team are very different as well.

But the size of the development team is part of our concerns - why should XI - which is making money have a teeny tiny itsy bitsy dev team? Aren't we paying for this game? Shouldn't we, paying customers, get the same or better service as XIV, which people have been playing free for a full year now?

It is hard not to believe that the plan is to kill XI when there seems to be so little planned for it. Raising level caps isn't a good replacement for real content.

[Zaknafein]

In addition to more developers I would also like to place an order for more Camates.

[Camate]

In addition to more developers I would also like to place an order for more Camates.

There can be only one!

[Babygyrl]

By new, is it new new or just recolored new? :X

*hides*

Edit: Also, Camate I miss your pumpkin head D:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/images/avatars/ffxi_mog02_halloween.jpg


me too! lol he needs a turkey head for Thanksgiving :p (that is if you celebrate it :P)

[Raksha]

There can be only one!

niiiiiiiiiiice

[Vold]

Just to clarify one misconception I have been noticing for a while now...

"PS2 limitations" is not a factor for adding new areas to the game and we will in fact be adding new areas in the future, so please do not worry about this.Well I'm glad this myth is finally busted.


Also, "staff limitations" just got called up from the minors so I'ma be first on this deal.


Staff limitations!

[Xellith]

I understand your feelings about the differences between FINAL FANTASY XI and FINAL FANTASY XIV. Please understand that these games are very different entities and just as it was stated before, the operational policies as well as the size of the development team are very different as well.

Just to clarify one misconception I have been noticing for a while now...

"PS2 limitations" is not a factor for adding new areas to the game and we will in fact be adding new areas in the future, so please do not worry about this.

So FFXI is getting neglected compared to its younger FFXIV brother because??? You haven't really addressed the issue. We understand they are different games with different operational policies - what we don't understand is why FFXIV is getting so much thrown its way and we don't seem to be getting anywhere near similar treatment.

[Alhanelem]

"PS2 limitations" is not a factor for adding new areas to the game and we will in fact be adding new areas in the future, so please do not worry about this.Then please answer this: If it's "not a factor", then why did they place all the new high level normal monsters in existing areas, instead of adding new areas to fill with them?

[Ophannus]

Inbefore they start consolidating zones. eg Dynamis-Apollyon or Abyssea-Nyzul.

[Zagen]

Then please answer this: If it's "not a factor", then why did they place all the new high level normal monsters in existing areas, instead of adding new areas to fill with them?
Clearly "staff limitations" lol.

Edit: I don't know how FFXI's monster system is designed but if its anything like stuff I've worked with in the past then adding a high level monster equates to:
- Pick existing model/texture set for family. (Say Spiders)
- Pick random word + monster type (i.e. Shoreline Spider)
- Pick random zone with a "shore" to make the name match.
- Decide where on that map they spawn (picking an empty area or deleting old mob from there).
- Decide how many will spawn in the area.
- Decide level range which when combined with mob family will automatically determine mob stats.
- Add 1 line of code to do all this and call it a day, or set the variables in a GUI.

So about an "hour" (gotta account for forum trolling after all) but keep in mind this is assuming their coding supports simple implementation of monsters.

[Aldersyde]

Then please answer this: If it's "not a factor", then why did they place all the new high level normal monsters in existing areas, instead of adding new areas to fill with them?

Why should they bother with new zones when there's dozens of old zones sitting empty? The game is very top heavy with end game players. Why shouldn't zones be modified to reflect this state of the game? I don't buy the "thrill of exploration" reason I hear when this subject comes because from my experience, most people in pick up groups can barely navigate heavy traffic zones, let alone out of the way zones. Fix old zones to make them worth going to aside from one or two missions, then worry about all new zones.

[Xellith]

Lazyness/Cheapness/Corner-Cutting seem to be the issue here if it isnt PS2 limitations. There is No reason that FF11 should get neglected the way it is and FF14 pretty much gets told "do what you have to, to make this game work".

[Alhanelem]

Why should they bother with new zones when there's dozens of old zones sitting empty? The game is very top heavy with end game players. Why shouldn't zones be modified to reflect this state of the game? I don't buy the "thrill of exploration" reason I hear when this subject comes because from my experience, most people in pick up groups can barely navigate heavy traffic zones, let alone out of the way zones. Fix old zones to make them worth going to aside from one or two missions, then worry about all new zones.

Don't get me wrong, it wasn't a bad idea inofitself to give some purpose to disuesd areas, but this also caused a fair amount of aggrivation for newer players or players leveling up a new job when they found that some of the quests they needed took them near very high level monsters when those quests didn't before. Even olf players long gone who came back to the game may unwittingly venture into one of these places and suddenly get killed because they didn't know about the changes.

[Zagen]

Why should they bother with new zones when there's dozens of old zones sitting empty? The game is very top heavy with end game players. Why shouldn't zones be modified to reflect this state of the game? I don't buy the "thrill of exploration" reason I hear when this subject comes because from my experience, most people in pick up groups can barely navigate heavy traffic zones, let alone out of the way zones. Fix old zones to make them worth going to aside from one or two missions, then worry about all new zones.

Why should anyone bother with higher level monsters in old zones when Abyssea provides skill ups (even past 90), EXP, Cruor (gil, demi god tool if wanted), and random NPCable items?


Lazyness/Cheapness/Corner-Cutting seem to be the issue here if it isnt PS2 limitations. There is No reason that FF11 should get neglected the way it is and FF14 pretty much gets told "do what you have to, to make this game work".

I have to agree with this, also it only further pushes my belief that SE is stringing FFXI along until FFXIV is ready and then will kill off FFXI in hopes everyone shifts over to FFXIV.

PS2 limitations and in turn coding created for the PS2 are the only major factors that make FFXI a bad investment, so if those aren't actual factors...

[Morier]

If they are too dumb to check mobs they are around, they deserve to die.

[Xellith]

If they are too dumb to check mobs they are around, they deserve to die.

yea because you want to run around the game /checking every single monster that you are going to run past. Get real.

[Sevokevo]

I understand your feelings about the differences between FINAL FANTASY XI and FINAL FANTASY XIV. Please understand that these games are very different entities and just as it was stated before, the operational policies as well as the size of the development team are very different as well.

Just to clarify one misconception I have been noticing for a while now...

"PS2 limitations" is not a factor for adding new areas to the game and we will in fact be adding new areas in the future, so please do not worry about this.


WOW dude... That is some news... But what new areas are we talking about? New new areas or just reskin areas?

[Xellith]

WOW dude... That is some news... But what new areas are we talking about? New new areas or just reskin areas?

Great News Everybody!

http://hollywoodhatesme.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/prof-farnsworth.jpg

Your moblin maze monger zones will be ready soon!

[Juilan]

There can be only one!

The one needs a new pumpkin head, or maybe an elf hat :D

[Aldersyde]

Why should anyone bother with higher level monsters in old zones when Abyssea provides skill ups (even past 90), EXP, Cruor (gil, demi god tool if wanted), and random NPCable items?

Well damn, if that's your line of thinking, why complain about new zones at all when Abyssea supplies everything you want already? I'd rather the dev team focus on creating good battle content and end game events than new zones that look pretty and will be used for a mission or two, then be chronically underused the rest of the time; you know, like how WOTG and TOAU areas are today.

Modifying old zones doesn't just mean exp and gil farming.

[Zagen]

Well damn, if that's your line of thinking, why complain about new zones at all when Abyssea supplies everything you want already? I'd rather the dev team focus on creating good battle content and end game events than new zones that look pretty and will be used for a mission or two, then be chronically underused the rest of the time; you know, like how WOTG and TOAU areas are today.
And other players would prefer new zones and/or stories/quests/missions to go with those new zones. Different people want different things.

You know what would be awesome a new zone or a couple of zones that contains new quests/missions involving it, as well as new NMs. Think the next sky or sea. This would make explorers happy and people like you looking for "good battle content and end game events" happy. Too bad this isn't what SE sees as a priority.


Modifying old zones doesn't just mean exp and gil farming.
What other reason is there to kill higher level mobs? When they're just higher level versions of old mobs there is nothing new about them to explore. Keep in mind I'm talking about higher level trash mobs they've added to old zones which don't actually apply as "good battle content" at least I don't find fighting a higher level version of a given mob with 0 new abilities as good battle content.

[Sparthos]

Beaucidine Glacier (F)

F for Future!

[Juri_Licious]

Abyssea Caedarva Mire
White Gate {S} (The war that took place 200 years ago)

[saevel]

I understand your feelings about the differences between FINAL FANTASY XI and FINAL FANTASY XIV. Please understand that these games are very different entities and just as it was stated before, the operational policies as well as the size of the development team are very different as well.

Just to clarify one misconception I have been noticing for a while now...

"PS2 limitations" is not a factor for adding new areas to the game and we will in fact be adding new areas in the future, so please do not worry about this.

Camate are their any plans, even long term ones, about redoing the graphics engine for PC clients? As it stands it's currently using DirectX 8.1 and rendering to a single flat surface, this creates graphics issues on any PC made in the past three to four years. Doesn't even need to be something like DX10/11, a simple DX9 remake would suffice.

[Dreamin]

New areas = more levels in Nyzul Isle Investigation. They going to just add more levels and throw in some currency in there and called that content.

With the crap drop rate of anything but logs/ores, most people that I know are already tired of VW's and WoE's. This ain't 2005 anymore, SE, people no longer wish to go back to the old ground kings/sky/sea day of slaving away weeks/months on end for that extreme low drop rate of decent armors. (I know people who are well over 0/30+ on Celaeno with full lights on everyrun).

[Lojinxx]

Lazyness/Cheapness/Corner-Cutting seem to be the issue here if it isnt PS2 limitations. There is No reason that FF11 should get neglected the way it is and FF14 pretty much gets told "do what you have to, to make this game work".

Yes there is and I wouldn't call it neglect.

Most of you are either crazy or just have such a boring work day that you resort to unnecessary forum drama. An open discussion about revamps to the game is understandable. I'd love to see updated graphics or even just HD texture packs or whatever, but for people to come on here and put down SE saying the game is dying and that it needs to be torn apart and rebuilt is just nonsense. It's laughable. Most of you talk as though you work at the company saying "SE thinks this" or "SE knows that" . It's almost as if some of you think you actually have a slight idea as to how they'll approach things or what their ideas for the future are, but I'm sure you don't know any more than what we all know through announcements. All I've really ever heard in the form of official announcements is them thanking us for being with them so long and that they hope to support the game for years to come lol.

I think the big point that both sides of the argument in this thread are missing is that you're all the minority! There's only a handful of you on this forum bitching and moaning about a "dead game" while hundreds of thousands(I don't even know the number I just know it's way more than you guys lol) of people are playing the game and loving it. Sometimes things get monotonous, but they always implement something new. And if it takes them a little longer than we hope to implement, take a freaking break from the game and live a little, or better yet, help your friends or other people who weren't as fortunate as you to achieve their goals in-game while yours are all attained. So please, quit your whining people or stop playing the game. But you won't stop playing becuase you enjoy the game, you just enjoy complaining a little bit more. I only saw this thread through Guildwork because of the developer saying they'll be releasing new areas or whatever, otherwise I don't associate with whine asses, but I thought I'd stop over and put you all in your place real quick.

Dear SE,

Don't mind these people. They don't have anything better to do than belittle anything that doesn't go their way. Although I'd love to see some graphics upgrades, I'm really not fond of jumping around or swimming. I don't want new formulas and game mechanics; the ones we have now are pretty kickass.(note I said pretty and not absolutely) Nobody is perfect, but SE comes pretty damn close with FFXI imo.

Thanks SE for all the good times you've provided and will continue to provide.

You(and let me make it clear that when i say "you" i mean all the people with no appreciation whatsoever for the game this company has provided) can all feel dumb now. kthxbye

[cidbahamut]

The moment the playerbase becomes complacent is the moment the game dies.

[JovialRat]

Just to clarify one misconception I have been noticing for a while now...

"PS2 limitations" is not a factor for adding new areas to the game and we will in fact be adding new areas in the future, so please do not worry about this.

Would it be possible to give us a list of what the PS2 is limiting what Vana diel can be?

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

I would wager the license they have with Sony to publish the game for the PS2 doesn't allow them to talk about what the limitations are, either to enforce non-competitiveness or to hinder reverse-engineering.

[Elexia]

Then please answer this: If it's "not a factor", then why did they place all the new high level normal monsters in existing areas, instead of adding new areas to fill with them?

Please answer this:

Why would we need new areas, with absolutely no story relation nor logical reason to exist for the sole purpose of new monsters to grind on?

It can't be said "well they can add content to it in the future!" Since that's the purpose of making new areas in the first place, for said content lol. Think of it like this: We have Vanilla and Zilart zones, they raised the cap to 75, then they introduced the CoP areas for the sole purpose of Grinding XP then 7 months later, we get the first CoP story arc attached to the new zones.

Not as good of an addition then, huh?


So FFXI is getting neglected compared to its younger FFXIV brother because???

Common sense?

One requires development on even an engine level.

One requires just content addition.

Which requires, or needs, the bigger development team?

Unless of course your post was sarcastic.

[Luso]

I think the big point that both sides of the argument in this thread are missing is that you're all the minority! There's only a handful of you on this forum bitching and moaning about a "dead game" while hundreds of thousands(I don't even know the number I just know it's way more than you guys lol) of people are playing the game and loving it. Sometimes things get monotonous, but they always implement something new. And if it takes them a little longer than we hope to implement, take a freaking break from the game and live a little, or better yet, help your friends or other people who weren't as fortunate as you to achieve their goals in-game while yours are all attained. So please, quit your whining people or stop playing the game. But you won't stop playing becuase you enjoy the game, you just enjoy complaining a little bit more. I only saw this thread through Guildwork because of the developer saying they'll be releasing new areas or whatever, otherwise I don't associate with whine asses, but I thought I'd stop over and put you all in your place real quick.

Just because not many people post on here regarding the current discussions regarding a game overhaul/graphics does not mean that the ones currently posting are the only ones supporting it. They're just the ones that actually have the mindset to talk about instead of waiting around for someone else to do the talking for them. Now and again that person will draw some criticism from people but any amount is fine because they wouldn't have even known if people weren't for such an upgrade if they had stayed silent. And who knows? Maybe the interest and discussions involving this subject will spark something in SE's plan for XI. Maybe it won't; the point is, SE cannot read our minds; we have to be vocal in what we want or hope for. I'm not on the side of those who think that they know how SE's business works, but I am on the side that wants something done (this includes a message from SE regarding any future upgrades, if even at all).


Dear SE,

Don't mind these people. They don't have anything better to do than belittle anything that doesn't go their way. Although I'd love to see some graphics upgrades, I'm really not fond of jumping around or swimming. I don't want new formulas and game mechanics; the ones we have now are pretty kickass.

I don't think THAT many people are actually very serious about wanting flying mounts or jumping around, despite a recent thread stating an interest in the former. Also, the fact that you're saying you don't want new formulas or game mechanics means you aren't interested in whatever the new dungeon crawling and "The Last Stand" have to offer, at least, that's what I'm drawing from this. You don't know if they'll change anything regarding game mechanics, so don't assume things just yet.

[cidbahamut]

Common sense?

One requires development on even an engine level.

Yes, FFXI's DirectX wrapper is quickly approaching obsolescence as the version of DirectX it currently uses is slated to be dropped from the backwards compatibility features in future operating systems.



One requires just content addition.

Ineed, FFXIV could use a hearty helping of additional content.



Which requires, or needs, the bigger development team?


FFXI clearly.

Oh wait, that's not at all the conclusion you intended people to draw is it?

[FrankReynolds]

Yes there is and I wouldn't call it neglect.

</wall of nonsense>

You(and let me make it clear that when i say "you" i mean all the people with no appreciation whatsoever for the game this company has provided) can all feel dumb now. kthxbye

You should post this over in the FFXIV forums. The people posting here pay for this game, and obviously care about and appreciate the game. That is why we are debating it's future. FFXI is not free. We have a right to ask for our paid service to be kept fresh and modern.

[Sinister]

I understand your feelings about the differences between FINAL FANTASY XI and FINAL FANTASY XIV. Please understand that these games are very different entities and just as it was stated before, the operational policies as well as the size of the development team are very different as well.

Just to clarify one misconception I have been noticing for a while now...

"PS2 limitations" is not a factor for adding new areas to the game and we will in fact be adding new areas in the future, so please do not worry about this.

Then knowing this, can voice chat be put in or offered as a 'paid feature'? For people that run event linkshells that sometimes typing can be a hinder in mid game play. Considering both PC & PS2 can support this and the idea PS2 is not a limit or set back based on your statement Camate, could this be added in the future? Granted event linkshells have found work around to this simple problem but as i almost playing for as long as the game been around since NA release, almost 8yrs. Do you think you can find out why this has not been added yet as of date? mainly lets say reserved for LS chat only or again, a paid feature that a LS Leader would have to opt-in for per LS. My first post ever on here so look forward to your timely reply.

Thanks.

[Sesh]

Don't hold your breath, they only reply if it's an auto-translate from the JP forum, or they'll stick some random info in a forum that is somewhat close on topic to the message they want to give. The only exception is a thread like this where people are frustrated, then we are graced with a vague response like the one above, that only raises more questions than it answers.

[Spero]

Camate,is there a chance for ffxi, to be ps3 compatable in the near future?

[Sevokevo]

Great News Everybody!

http://hollywoodhatesme.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/prof-farnsworth.jpg

Your moblin maze monger zones will be ready soon!

ROFL Nice one there. :P

[Moonracer]

Can you elaborate on this? When I and a few others (maybe more than a few) have mentioned "new areas" we are talking 100% unique zones not a rehashed zone such as Abyssea and WoTG was full of.

I believe partly that what Camate means by this is the new Dungeon crawl type endgame element thats mentioned in the "Final Fantasy XI Roadmap". If the pics for it serve as any basis, its certainly something i have yet to see in FFXI as of this point. (Honestly, it looks like it has something to do with the 5 crystals of Vana'diel, but thats imo). It is well within the scope for them to make new areas. Perhaps its not quite another parallel world, or some new unexplored continent, or a fully developed expansion, but if you think about it, each expansion has added maybe only a couple of new areas. Until a full blown expansion, i would not see the need for a slew of new areas.

[CapriciousOne]

yea because you want to run around the game /checking every single monster that you are going to run past. Get real.

actually I do especially in new areas i'm not familiar or old areas I dont frequent often and especially if i hadn't been around for a while, that is just common sense but I guess you dont have any of that huh? Apparently neither do they if they think this is a game to run around blindly hacking and slashing. This isn't Devil May Cry or Resistance. I guess it would be safe to say neither you nor them ever heard the saying "Look before you leap" either. At this point of playing though I pretty much know most of the zones and where the mobs are because I routinely make it my business to know when I hear the word "redistribution"

[Alhanelem]

I do especially in new areas i'm not familiarThing is, these are not new areas, and not all of them are so rarely visited that people would forget what they're like.

[Catsby]

The number of deadend zones in this game is kinda saddening.

[Aselin]

I understand your feelings about the differences between FINAL FANTASY XI and FINAL FANTASY XIV. Please understand that these games are very different entities and just as it was stated before, the operational policies as well as the size of the development team are very different as well.

Just to clarify one misconception I have been noticing for a while now...

"PS2 limitations" is not a factor for adding new areas to the game and we will in fact be adding new areas in the future, so please do not worry about this.

I do believe you are contradicting yourself, especially if you are representing Square-Enix on the official forums. This goes against everything Square-Enix has said in the past especially regarding "PS2 limitations."

You have to remember that Square-Enix along with the previous FFXI director said the following during a previous Fanfest/game convention (e.g. E3, etc.)/interview:

Square-Enix decided not to update the graphics engine to DirectX 9 from DirectX 8 prior to Wings of the Goddess release. This is the one of the many signs that Square-Enix is back-pedaling from promises to add changes to the game. DirectX 8 is already proving to be a problem with newer systems. There are noticeable graphical issues present in both Nvidia and AMD graphics card-based systems under Windows Vista and Windows 7 because they use DirectX 10/11 and soon DirectX 12.1 (Windows 8). These vary from texture flickering, disjointed textures, and other graphical glitches.

Windows XP displays little to no issues since it still uses DirectX 9. DirectX 10 and 11 are much different architecturally than DirectX 9 and earlier. It also deprecates DirectSound and especially DirectInput. Why DirectInput? As said in Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DirectInput):
Microsoft recommends that new applications make use of the Windows message loop for keyboard and mouse input instead of DirectInput... and to use XInput instead of DirectInput for Xbox 360 controllers...

Microsoft has not made any major changes to DirectInput since DirectX 8, and introduced XInput later in DirectX 9...

An Xbox 360 Controller with the default Microsoft driver with DirectInput has the following limitations compared to with XInput:
- the left and right triggers will act as a single axis representing the signed difference between the triggers, not as independent analog axes
- vibration effects will not operate
- querying for headset devices will not operate
This has caused issues with using the Xbox 360 controller where the trigger buttons (LT and RT) do not function. Vibration does not work properly. Some players, such as my friend, have to resort to third party software and drivers to get full functionality out of the 360 controller. It is up to the developer of the application and the game to add support for this. Seeing as the game has not been updated from DirectX 8, this will not be fixed.
As for the dated graphics of FFXI, SE stated themselves that they wish to keep the PC and 360 version the same as the PS2 version. SE didn't want to do anything that would make both versions of the game different from each other. This is called laziness and unwillingness to do anything with the game because it would be too much work to upgrade one version of the game.
Square-Enix has said it themselves that any resources upgrading or expanding FFXI would be better spent on making another game. We got Final Fantasy XIV which, after over a year, isn't feature complete. It isn't until version 2.0 that FFXIV will finally get a new graphics engine. What does that say about Square-Enix regarding adding new areas?
Square-Enix has taken half the FFXI team to work on FFXIV. It unfortunately backfired when FFXIV was released unfinished and broken last September 2010, with many concerns voiced during Beta not being addressed at launch. Square-Enix has again taken more people off FFXI to work on FFXIV.

Square-Enix would say one thing and promise this, then back-pedal on it. This has been a recurring theme that many players with myself included have experienced in the last several years.

Everything I mentioned above seems to me that Square-Enix does indeed acknowledge in some form or another that there is a "Playstation 2" limitation. And, I am very sure Square-Enix knows that there is only so much you can do to expand FFXI at this point without using programming tricks or recycling/re-texturing previous graphics assets.

There are players who know there is a limit to the maximum accessible space in this game already. 80 for inventory. 80 for secondary inventory that can be opened simultaneously (Sack, Storage, Satchel, Mog Safe). And, a single space for Gil. That's 161 total spaces that can be opened simultaneously at any one time. Compare this to FFXIV. It has a higher number of inventory space compared to FFXI. This is a very obvious example that there is a limitation caused by allowing the game to be one-to-one (1:1) feature parity with the Playstation 2. 32 MB of RAM on the PS2 compared to 256 MB on the PS3 and a much larger amount for the PC.

There are players who already know there is a limit to the number of Delivery Box items that can be held in there.

There are players that know that re-texturing and re-skinning armor, monsters, and environments doesn't save space. Case in point this very good blog explaining it: http://parchmentpaper.blogspot.com/2011/03/explaining-why-reskinned-graphics-dont.html (http://parchmentpaper.blogspot.com/2011/03/explaining-why-reskinned-graphics-dont.html)

There are also certain players who know and believe that there is a hard limit of approximately 10 GB on the PS2 hard disk out of its 40 GB maximum size. This hard limit can only be expanded under express approval of Sony because of the DNAS security check that the Playstation 2 and FFXI must abide to. Remember: DNAS is a hardware and software security check done to be sure that the game AND system isn't modified, that players aren't cheating, and that the game remains within its pre-specified limits and hardware usage.

It has already become very evident that the past several releases, the so-called add-ons, have been very small. The upcoming "new area" may also be a small addition to the game, but not a full-blown expansion. On the PC, the game stands just above or near 10 GB in size. So, the belief that there is a hard limit set on FFXI's partition on the PS2's hard disk becomes more believable.

You also have to realize that when comparing Square-Enix to other MMO game developers, other game developers have been willing to expand their game long after it has been released.

Sony Online Entertainment (SOE) continues development for both Everquest and Everquest II. Everquest II has also received a graphics engine update several years ago. Both games also get new expansions and areas, and EQII has ten expansions to its name.

CCP Games with EVE Online updated the graphics engine in 2007, four years after its release in May 2003. And, that is about five years after FFXI's release on the Playstation 2 and PC in Japan. The graphics engine was updated from DirectX 8 to DirectX 9. CCP also continues to update the game each year. And, get this: one of CCP's parent owners has $1.6 billion in assets. This is about the same amount of revenue earned by Square-Enix last fiscal year. CCP plans to update the ship models in a future update, a so called "V3" (for version 3) ships update. (Version 2 was from Trinity.)

Let's not forget Blizzard Entertainment with World of Warcraft. The game received a minor graphics update several years ago. They also plan on upgrading the character models in the future. Even the game is almost as old as Final Fantasy XI but continues to get expansions and new areas.

Now, they may or may not be good examples, but they are the best examples of game developers willing to not let their projects and games stagnate. (For WoW, I digress given recent criticisms regarding Mists of Pandaria...)

However, what makes myself or any other player believe what you say?

There are still fixes to be made to the game outside graphical issues. How about the Playstation 2 version of FFXI? I have had several friends in the game playing on the PS2 suffer from black screens, disc read errors, and game crashes in certain areas that have not been fixed yet. This can also be attributed to the fact that the PS2 is an aging system. You can fix a junk car only so much before you can junk it. Now, there are players who probably have no issue at all. However, when you think about the fact that there are no more PS3 systems with backwards PS2 compatibility being manufactured anymore, a game developer must step back and think about what must be done to fix current issues on an aging system. How much longer can you support the PS2 when Sony stops the DNAS servers and moves on?

Can you still say with a straight and honest face that there is no Playstation 2 limitation and that it is not a factor in adding new areas?

The game world, Vana'diel, is considered approximately 25% complete according to the team behind FFXI. Any guarantee we will be seeing the other areas to the game?

Will there be a guarantee from Square-Enix to provide needed fixes to the game as well as upgrades to FFXI?

Also, is it worth the calculated risk to spend all the resources on FFXIV which probably has much less concurrent players than FFXI? Are you willing to stagnate one game to improve another?

Is it even worth it for Square-Enix to even expend more resources to develop a third MMO that is to be announced on the next fiscal year in March 2012?

Maybe someone from Square-Enix can answer them directly instead of a Community Representative.

[Buffy]

Aselin,

Stop talking.

[Aikagi]

From a very old interview found http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/story.html?story=10045


Tanaka-san: As to where it will be in five years, we can’t really predict as it’s a long time. One of the things is as the game is based on PS2 technology, there are limits and right now we’re doing our best to get around those limits and make the best with what we have. On the other hand we also have the new MMO that’s being developed at the same time by the same team and how those two will be related will also deal with what the other players want but it all comes down to the user. If the user wants to keep playing Final Fantasy 11 we will keep producing content for it.

What are the current PS2 limitations to the dev team?

This interview was back in 2007, so the five years in this interview is almost up! Where does the dev team see FFXI in the next five years?

[Greatguardian]

Camate never said PS2 limitations didn't exist.

He just said that they weren't preventing the addition of new zones.

Anyone with half a brain or any knowledge of programming whatsoever already knew that.

Reskins are reskins because it requires less time/effort/manpower/money to reskin a zone than to design a completely new one, not because the PS2 "can't handle new ones". Reskinned zones take up just as much memory as a completely new zone.

Ps2 limitations exist. This is not one of them. Christ, read for comprehension people.

[Aikagi]

Camate never said PS2 limitations didn't exist.

He just said that they weren't preventing the addition of new zones.

Anyone with half a brain or any knowledge of programming whatsoever already knew that.

Reskins are reskins because it requires less time/effort/manpower/money to reskin a zone than to design a completely new one, not because the PS2 "can't handle new ones". Reskinned zones take up just as much memory as a completely new zone.

Ps2 limitations exist. This is not one of them. Christ, read for comprehension people.

This I understand, but people throw "PS2 limitations" around for everything. I'd like to know what the real limitations are... from the actual dev-team.

[Greatguardian]

People will always throw around "PS2 limitations" for everything, just like players who are out-claimed will always accuse the other group of botting. Good luck getting a Dev response on that though, I mean that.

[Aikagi]

People will always throw around "PS2 limitations" for everything, just like players who are out-claimed will always accuse the other group of botting. Good luck getting a Dev response on that though, I mean that.

lol, I've been around long enough to know how annoyingly non-responsive the dev team is.

It's only because of my masochistic hope that maybe, one day, they'll respond do I even ask.

[Zagen]

Reskinned zones take up just as much memory as a completely new zone.

I just wanted to point out/clarify reskins use the same temp/loaded memory but not the same amount of hard drive space as a new zone. Assuming SE isn't doing some weird crap with the way models are handled.

[Greatguardian]

I just wanted to point out/clarify reskins use the same temp/loaded memory but not the same amount of hard drive space as a new zone. Assuming SE isn't doing some weird crap with the way models are handled.

The limiting factor on zone creation wasn't really hard drive space to begin with, but rather the zone index which had a "Maximum" number of zones that could be added to the game. Reskinned zones are still separate zones on that index, which is the crux of what people freak out about when they hear "PS2 is going to limit the number of zones we can have". A lot of reskinned zones have new/different models as well, eg the Abyssea and Shadowreign areas.

Even if they filled up the index though, it's easy enough to just add a bit, adjust zone IDs, and have a larger capacity. That's what I was driving at.

[Zagen]

The limiting factor on zone creation wasn't really hard drive space to begin with, but rather the zone index which had a "Maximum" number of zones that could be added to the game. Reskinned zones are still separate zones on that index, which is the crux of what people freak out about when they hear "PS2 is going to limit the number of zones we can have". A lot of reskinned zones have new/different models as well, eg the Abyssea and Shadowreign areas.

Even if they filled up the index though, it's easy enough to just add a bit, adjust zone IDs, and have a larger capacity. That's what I was driving at.

Ah didn't get that from the initial post, figured I'd clarify before someone took it out of context :D

I don't know what the hard drive space on the PS2 looks like post clean up but I agree the index would likely be reached before the hard drive space is reached even with completely new zones. That said if they did expand/create a new zone index (assuming the PS2 didn't freak out) I would think the drive space would become a factor over the new ID limit at that point assuming completely new zones.

So much info I'd love to know, so I know what to potentially expect out of FFXI T_T

[Catsby]

A massive post full of valid arguements

Guild Wars 2.

[Laraul]

I do believe you are contradicting yourself, especially if you are representing Square-Enix on the official forums. This goes against everything Square-Enix has said in the past especially regarding "PS2 limitations."

The developers NEVER said the PS2 limited the game. It's always been the player base putting words in their mouths. Just as you have now... in fact you put a lot words in a lot of mouths...

Here I have some questions that YOU should ask yourself. When Microsoft designed Xinput... why did they design it in such a way to make it incompatible with directinput?

How does an OS that uses "D3D 10/11" cause "graphical issues" for "D3D 8" games but not "D3D 9" games. Wouldn't they show up in D3D 9 games as well? And what "graphical issues" are you referring too?

How would removing people trying to "fix" a game you claim is "broken" to go work on a ten year old game many people say works pretty well but is reaching the end of it's development lifespan help anyone? Besides you at least.

Did you know that the POL client actually uses D3D9? You didn't? What a surprise... I wonder what else you don't know...

[BurnNotice]

Well, I do recall SE stating that FFXI will continue to run as long as their are people playing it. This is not saying they will add system upgrades to today's technology, but it will allow for Dev. to create more add-ons to keep loyal players enticed. With FFXIV overhaul being release in the 4th quarter of 2012, it will still require a great amount of time build a deep player base similar to FFXI. Til that actually happens, FFXI Dev. Team would have to work double time for new content; which is probably the reason why we all got that mystery survey.

With PS3s at a lower price for the holidays, a FFXI patch, emulator, or something is highly recommended. People have put tons of work, hours, sleepless nights, PTO days (Pay Time Off for those who don't know), missed opportunities, nagging parents, aggressive girlfriend/boyfriend, burned food, and anything else that could been worth getting anything in the game over the course of 8-10 years.

[Volkai]

FFXI makes them tons of money. Even if it needs a whole new transmission and a paint job, it is still worth the investment. Which would Volkswagon prioritize, maintaining the original VW Bugs or improving the New VW Bugs?




A remade FFXIV has no more potential than a remade FFXI for getting new players, possibly less due to it's bad reputation. Windows XP is still the #1 OS. Is Microsoft making a mistake by developing Windows 8 based off of Windows 7 (plus the Windows Phone 7 'Metro' interface) instead of making a Windows XP redesign?





The FFXIV road map says this:

1. A complete redesign of current repetitive maps
2. The implementation of a new graphics engine
3. A new server system designed for increased speed and performance
4. A fully renewed user interface

exactly what engine are you talking about that isn't getting rebuilt? and what makes you think that it is any cheaper to do it to FFXIV than it is to FFXI?
The game engine is not getting rebuilt. The development tools are not getting rebuilt.

To exceed XI's limitations it appears the game engine - and thus the development tools - would need to be changed. For XIV this is not the case.

The graphics engine is what takes the game engine visual output and makes it monitor-readable. Changing that does not necessitate rebuilding the game's code from line 10 onward.

[Volkai]

Well, I do recall SE stating that FFXI will continue to run as long as their are people playing it. This is not saying they will add system upgrades to today's technology, but it will allow for Dev. to create more add-ons to keep loyal players enticed. With FFXIV overhaul being release in the 4th quarter of 2012, it will still require a great amount of time build a deep player base similar to FFXI. Til that actually happens, FFXI Dev. Team would have to work double time for new content; which is probably the reason why we all got that mystery survey.

With PS3s at a lower price for the holidays, a FFXI patch, emulator, or something is highly recommended. People have put tons of work, hours, sleepless nights, PTO days (Pay Time Off for those who don't know), missed opportunities, nagging parents, aggressive girlfriend/boyfriend, burned food, and anything else that could been worth getting anything in the game over the course of 8-10 years.

That's part of why XI has less potential return from an overhaul than XI. A lot of people have already reached a point where they are Done With FFXI and will not return. An overhaul does not make it a New Game Worth Trying.

XIV is still a New Game, and may yet be made into a game seen by many as a New Game Worth Trying with the PS3 release.

[Greatguardian]

The developers NEVER said the PS2 limited the game. It's always been the player base putting words in their mouths.

I think you should go back and look over some of the older interviews with Sage Sundi. PS2 limitations is not a player-made term.

[Dragonlord]

Which would Volkswagon prioritize, maintaining the original VW Bugs or improving the New VW Bugs?


You can't compare ffxi/xiv to a car sale. Cars are a one time sale, not an ongoing payment (and financing doesn't count bc you owe the money whether u continue to want the car or not) truth is ffxi/xiv are closer to a service than a product. We pay each month so the devs maintain and upgrade what the product is. Would you expect that bc you use the same lawn care service that they can slack off and be worse every time you use them? No, they improve so you keep paying for their service.

[saevel]

That's part of why XI has less potential return from an overhaul than XI. A lot of people have already reached a point where they are Done With FFXI and will not return. An overhaul does not make it a New Game Worth Trying.

XIV is still a New Game, and may yet be made into a game seen by many as a New Game Worth Trying with the PS3 release.


That's not how MMO's work, people with no experience running an MMO really need to stop trying to speculate.

A MMO experience's its worst financial moments the first two years after release. MMO's are incredibly expensive to develop, typically requiring 2~3 times the work as a stand alone game. You can cut this short by excluding content you figure the players wouldn't care about (back story / cinematics / ect..) but to make a proper MMO you need those. Initial purchase and subscription fee's never cover the cost of development and rarely cover the cost of maintenance in the first year. The second year is usually a little better, you can reach breakeven where your making enough to keep the servers running but you still need to pay back the investments for creating the game to begin with. With each passing year the game becomes more profitable, even if your subscription base flat lines. Once you've paid back that initial investment the game is running on pure profit, the longer it runs the more total profit it'll pull in.

MMO's become worth MORE the longer their around not less. This is why EQ and Aion are still running, their still producing pure profit for their respective companies. The subscription fee's completely pay for maintenance and whatever new content that's developed, and whatever is left over is pocketed as profit for the owners.

FFXI is producing pure profit for SE, it's already paid for it's own development costs and the costs for all the expansions. Subscriptions are paying for the maintenance and creation of new content. Their even being used to pay for the modification / rebuilding of FFXIV. FFXIV failed as a product, pure and simple. It was released and within the first two years failed to pay back it's initial development costs, it further failed to pay for it's own maintenance and content creation. Investing further money into it will not yield better results, it'll only increase the amount of money that it needs to pay back.

This is why their remaking it as a new product, FFXIV 2.0. It's relaunching and will basically be considered a new MMO. It won't break even for two years, even longer if they stick with the no-AH mentality. It wont' reach the same profitability level as FFXI for another five to seven years unless it has a WoW explosion, which I frankly doubt will happen (but anythings possible).

So all the people talking about "down with XI, XIV is newer" don't know what their talking about. To not continue development for XI would be a fatal mistake for their MMO branding.

[saevel]

The developers NEVER said the PS2 limited the game. It's always been the player base putting words in their mouths. Just as you have now... in fact you put a lot words in a lot of mouths...

Here I have some questions that YOU should ask yourself. When Microsoft designed Xinput... why did they design it in such a way to make it incompatible with directinput?

How does an OS that uses "D3D 10/11" cause "graphical issues" for "D3D 8" games but not "D3D 9" games. Wouldn't they show up in D3D 9 games as well? And what "graphical issues" are you referring too?

How would removing people trying to "fix" a game you claim is "broken" to go work on a ten year old game many people say works pretty well but is reaching the end of it's development lifespan help anyone? Besides you at least.

Did you know that the POL client actually uses D3D9? You didn't? What a surprise... I wonder what else you don't know...

No such thing as "development lifespan". MMO's do not have a shelf life, they don't expire. They are constantly rebuild and recreated, they only get turned off when they can no longer pay for their own maintenance fee. MMO's represent a significant up front financial investment, once they pay this investment off their running on pure profit and turn out to be one of the most profitable entertainment products made. Their this profitable precisely because they don't expire, movies expire, console games expire, even computer games expire, but MMO's can be rebuild and remade constantly as long as their are players playing.

Stop thinking NEW = BETTER.

[Keinn]

I really appreciate the direction SE has been taking since they released FF13 & FF14. They know they messed up, and want to make right on the series by fixing all the mistakes they made via Final Fantasy XIII-2 and Final Fantasy XIV 2.0.

They have also been putting a lot more effort into FF11 than they have in the past. Its good to see the game expanding and many of the frustrating elements being remedied over time.

[Catsby]

This thread is so frustrating. It's a bunch of people agreeing with each other angrily.

[FrankReynolds]

Which would Volkswagon prioritize, maintaining the original VW Bugs or improving the New VW Bugs?

Bad example. Volkswagon didn't trash the Bug when the passat came out. They updated the bug. It still sells really well.




Windows XP is still the #1 OS. Is Microsoft making a mistake by developing Windows 8 based off of Windows 7 (plus the Windows Phone 7 'Metro' interface) instead of making a Windows XP redesign?


Again a bad example. Microsoft sells the software. they do not charge monthly fees for it, so yes. They gain profit if you have to upgrade. they make nothing if you stay on xp forever. FFXI is licensed on a recurring monthly fee. If you leave it, they stop making money off it.



The game engine is not getting rebuilt. The development tools are not getting rebuilt.

To exceed XI's limitations it appears the game engine - and thus the development tools - would need to be changed. For XIV this is not the case.

The graphics engine is what takes the game engine visual output and makes it monitor-readable. Changing that does not necessitate rebuilding the game's code from line 10 onward.

I see you ignored all the other changes they are making that do require recoding the game. Good job.

[Atomic_Skull]

Did you know that the POL client actually uses D3D9? You didn't? What a surprise... I wonder what else you don't know...

No it doesn't, it uses D3D8.DLL




How does an OS that uses "D3D 10/11" cause "graphical issues" for "D3D 8" games but not "D3D 9" games. Wouldn't they show up in D3D 9 games as well?

Short version. D3D8 emulation in Windows Vista and Windows 7 is a wrapper that wraps to another wrapper.

D3D8.DLL -> D3D9.DLL -> D3D10.DLL

D3D8.DLL and D3D9.DLL are both wrappers. D3D8.DLL converts D3D8 pixel and vertex shaders (Shader Model 1.0) into Shader Model 2.0 and converts D3D8 calls into D3D9 calls. But D3D9.DLL is also a wrapper that converts D3D9 calls into D3D10.

Another problem is that Microsoft, ATI and Nvidia really don't care about D3D8 because nobody uses it anymore. However D3D9 is still widely used for current games as well as by Windows Aero.


And what "graphical issues" are you referring too?

In Windows Vista and Windows 7 textures will flicker under certain conditions. The easiest texture glitch to spot is the feathers on the wings of Roc type monsters.

[Aselin]

No it doesn't, it uses D3D8.DLL

Short version. D3D8 emulation in Windows Vista and Windows 7 is a wrapper that wraps to another wrapper.

D3D8.DLL -> D3D9.DLL -> D3D10.DLL

D3D8.DLL and D3D9.DLL are both wrappers. D3D8.DLL converts D3D8 pixel and vertex shaders (Shader Model 1.0) into Shader Model 2.0 and converts D3D8 calls into D3D9 calls. But D3D9.DLL is also a wrapper that converts D3D9 calls into D3D10.

Another problem is that Microsoft, ATI and Nvidia really don't care about D3D8 because nobody uses it anymore. However D3D9 is still widely used for current games as well as by Windows Aero.

In Windows Vista and Windows 7 textures will flicker under certain conditions. The easiest texture glitch to spot is the feathers on the wings of Roc type monsters.

Thank you for a better explanation.

The texture flickering is very specific and happens on certain conditions. Some may have the issue, others will not.

Regardless of driver versions, with my Radeon 5770 and Win 7 x64, texture tends to flicker on certain pieces of armor or texture overlaps and flickers in certain tunnels like Ranguemont Pass.

(You will notice a section of the tunnel where lighter colored wall texture overlaps a darker colored texture and flicker. The darker colored texture is used to give the impression of shadows since the game doesn't use realistic lighting and shadow. Only on characters and monsters is there any semblance of semi-realistic lighting and shadow. You will still encounter an issue where the shadow doesn't neatly match your character. For example, if you sit down with a staff attached on your back, regardless of the light source, the shadow doesn't neatly match and seems off.)

A friend with an Nvidia 285 GTX, regardless of driver versions and Win 7 x64, experiences the same issue.

Another friend with a Radeon 6870, same issue again. This disappears nearly completely once he created a separate partition for Windows XP (DX9) and ran FFXI in it. I can upload the three videos I've recorded off his computer if you want to see the texture flickering.

I just ignore it but when I see it in-game, I do notice it.

Also, regarding DirectX:

"Direct3D 9: emulates Direct3D 9 behavior as it was on Windows XP."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DirectX
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ee417756.aspx

DX9 is emulated in Vista and Windows 7. Anything running on older DX versions are run through DX9. If you have played with emulators such as EPSXE (Playstation emulator) or PCSX2 (Playstation 2) or even Dolphin (Gamecube/Wii), then you will know that emulation is not perfect.

Even in virtualized computing, it isn't exactly perfect but it's better than emulation when you want to virtualize a computer. Try out Virtualbox or download VMWare Player and you will see that hardware virtualization is better than emulation. If you want to try something else to emulate, look to Apple IIe emulators. It isn't perfect, but it's close to the real thing.

But, it's simply best to know that DirectX 9 and anything that relies on it is emulated in Vista, 7, and higher. Only DirectX 10 and higher are hardware accelerated. DirectX 9Ex is not since that is used for Aero in Vista/7.


"To ensure full compatibility with older versions of Windows, some quirks of the old driver model must be emulated even with the new Windows Vista display driver model. For example, when a full-screen application loses focus, it must assume it has lost all the resources in video memory (VRAM) and reload those it created as unmanaged resources even though the new driver model handles the resources transparently without evicting them from the device context."

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ee417756.aspx

(That sounds a lot like the fullscreen error to me in FFXI.)

Even MSDN states the following:

"Recommendations
Consider the following recommendations when selecting an API for your graphical application:

Use Direct3D 9 if your application must support Windows XP or an earlier version of Windows."

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ee417756.aspx

I've been reading about this stuff for years since Vista was released. I'm more of a web and database programmer than a C/C++ programmer, but I still read about it. A good example: Before MSDN Library removed DirectX 8 pages on their website, I found out that DirectX 8 does indeed allow windowed mode in the game. Yet, at that time, Square-Enix/people behind FFXI stated themselves that windowed mode is not possible for FFXI. If it still exists on the internet, you can find this statement by them. It was during Fanfest or an interview when it was requested or asked to be implemented and the panel stating it was not possible.

Is there anything else they don't know?

And, yes, some parts of DirectX get deprecated when newer versions are released or updated. DirectX 8 introduced programmable vertex and pixel shaders. DX9 was high level shader language. By DX10, we got unified and geometry shaders. Programmable vertex/pixel shaders were changed into unified shaders. Certain things such as "capability bits," or caps, and retained mode in older versions of DirectX were removed completely in newer versions of DirectX. DirectSound was removed completely so in other words no more hardware accelerated sound. DirectInput has not been updated since DirectX8 and has since been deprecated in favor of XInput. However, games must be programmed with XInput to be compatible with it.

Also, regarding DirectInput: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DirectInput

I'll be more than happy to let you talk to my friend who plays FFXI with an Xbox 360 controller. He has to resort to third party software and drivers for FFXI Config to recognize the rumble feature and triggers. FFXI Config does not recognize the trigger buttons, LT and RT, on the controller. DirectInput, more specifically DirectInput8, has not been revised since DirectX 8. Programmers must also use XInput instead of DirectInput in regards to Xbox 360 controllers. XInput only supports so-called "next generation" controllers such as the 360 controller. If the application still uses DirectInput to handle calls to-from the a controller, and the controller happens to be a 360 controller, the following issues will happen: (Again, restating what I already mentioned.)

the left and right triggers will act as a single axis representing the signed difference between the triggers, not as independent analog axes
vibration effects will not operate
querying for headset devices will not operate

If you have a non-Xbox 360 controller, this is not an issue. It's why that $20 Logitech controller was recommended for FFXI some years ago. Yet, it's a rather crappy controller. (I know this from personal experience, and my friend's too.)

I can give more explanation as to why XInput would be incompatible with DirectInput, but you have to realize that both have functions and calls not available in the other. If something is supported in XInput, then it is probably not supported in DirectInput, and vice-versa. Again, that list of issues for 360 controllers in DirectInput applications is a good indication of that.

All of these issues I mentioned above can be eliminated almost completely by switching the graphics engine and underlying code to DirectX 9. If it worked for EVE Online, WoW and EQ II, which both continuously get updates and fixes to the game, then it should work for FFXI. However, the only difference here is that both games were not ports of a console version.

(By the way, another older game that doesn't run well on Windows 7 is Sim City 3000 and Sim City 4. For Sim City 4, you have to enable software rendering for the graphics not to glitch up. However, issues like disappearing highways or improper shadows and glitched clouds still occur.)


How would removing people trying to "fix" a game you claim is "broken" to go work on a ten year old game many people say works pretty well but is reaching the end of it's development lifespan help anyone? Besides you at least.

Also, PS2 limitation is not something derived by players.

FFXI is not at the end of its lifespan. As has been stated many times before, as long as there are players in this game, SE will continue to develop content for it and support it.

Is EQ and EQ II dead? Guild Wars? EVE Online? WoW even? All those games started near, before, or around FFXI's release. Yet, they are still supported by their respective developers and its playerbase.

If FFXI was near the end of its lifespan, then we would have heard something from Square-Enix in that regard. Star Wars Galaxy ring a bell? That game was shutdown by Sony Online Entertainment. I believe Vanguard Online is another MMO that has been shutdown as well or will be soon. Many free-to-play games who don't succeed in the crowded F2P MMO market have been shutdown.

Regardless, SE continues to give us updates to FFXI and re-hashed seasonal events with slightly new prizes. Why? There are still players who pay and play this game. Why? Friends maybe? Because other MMOs do not interest them at the moment? Or, too much time has been invested that they don't want to see it go to waste? It can be a multitude of reasons.

However, should it be fair to the playerbase who still play that FFXI get neglected? No.

If the game wasn't broken, then ask yourself why do the ones who play on the PS2 still crash in certain areas like Garden of Ru'hmet? Why do they crash when around certain NPCs like Joachim in Jeuno? Why are there disc read errors and black screen freezes for the game? I can give you a list of players on my Friend List who play on the PS2 and have experienced one or all of those issues. Many of these issues have been in the game for many years already.


The limiting factor on zone creation wasn't really hard drive space to begin with, but rather the zone index which had a "Maximum" number of zones that could be added to the game. Reskinned zones are still separate zones on that index, which is the crux of what people freak out about when they hear "PS2 is going to limit the number of zones we can have". A lot of reskinned zones have new/different models as well, eg the Abyssea and Shadowreign areas.

Even if they filled up the index though, it's easy enough to just add a bit, adjust zone IDs, and have a larger capacity. That's what I was driving at.

I know about the "index." It has been mentioned before on another forum. Some speculated a maximum of 256 zone IDs from 0 to 255. Another person debunked that stating that the game can support more zones. I still think it's a maximum of 256. The upcoming one or two new areas being added in an upcoming update supposedly are the last ones that can be added. Again, someone else stated that there can be more zones added after that.

Why then do we get recycled zones but not completely new ones if hard drive space isn't an issue? Sure, Abyssea-La Theine is different from La Theine, and Dynamis-Qufim is different from Qufim. Recycled zone is still recycled zone.

If there wasn't a PS2 limitation, then we wouldn't have space limitations. The higher memory capacities of the PC and PS3 already allow FF14 to access larger amounts of inventory space. So, it does indicate there is a certain level of PS2 limitation for FFXI. You can only do so much with 32 MB of RAM without resorting to programming tricks or workarounds to get a game to work with it.

Sure, it costs money and a certain amount of people to make expansions for the game. Don't you think it's a bit long overdue for that by now? I'm sure the FFXI players deserve something for playing this long. SOE, CCP, and Blizzard haven't stopped developing for their respective MMOs, why should Square-Enix stop now when there are still a sizable amount of players still playing? The game isn't dead yet. And, I know of players who came back to XI from WoW, Aion, Rift, and even FFXIV. So, there has to be a reason why the game continues to get players even if they are older players.

Square-Enix should at the very least continue to support the game regardless if it's working on FFXIV and a third MMO. It shouldn't just ignore them with small updates here and there.

And, compared to FFXIV, the players of FFXI have been paying customers far longer than the players of FFXIV have. The players of FFXI deserve something too in return for their continued support. Not just FFXIV.

[Zaknafein]

You pick a title yet for that novel?

[Xellith]

Aselin should be the player rep to the SE reps >.>

[llello]

Holy wall of text batman! You know making massive drawn out posts doesn't help your cause much considering most people won't even attempt to read that. Besides the few things I skimmed through are just a repeat of whats been said with you adding more words and trying to make yourself sound legal savvy.

[Atomic_Skull]

But, it's simply best to know that DirectX 9 and anything that relies on it is emulated in Vista, 7, and higher. Only DirectX 10 and higher are hardware accelerated. DirectX 9Ex is not since that is used for Aero in Vista/7.

That's not correct, D3D8 and D3D9 are hardware accelerated in Vista and Windows 7.


As I understand it the way it does it is to program D3D10's pipeline to act like D3D9's fixed function pipeline. D3D9.DLL just translates calls into something that D3D10 will understand and redirects them to D3D10.DLL which renders the 3D scene.

D3D8.DLL translates D3D8 calls to their D3D9 equivalents and sends them to D3D9.DLL (most D3D8 calls have nearly direct equivalents in D3D9)

Some game developers also program the D3D10 pipeline to act like D3D9 when they want to support D3D10 features but not have to rewrite their entire graphics engine, or they just want to use something that is familiar to them. In these cases the game is using D3D10.DLL directly and code changes still have to be made for the new API calls because you can't just send D3D9 calls to D3D10.DLL.


DirectX 8 introduced programmable vertex and pixel shaders.

That is not correct. DirectX 8 uses fixed function shaders, programmable shaders didn't come until DirectX 9.

[Greatguardian]

I know about the "index." It has been mentioned before on another forum. Some speculated a maximum of 256 zone IDs from 0 to 255. Another person debunked that stating that the game can support more zones. I still think it's a maximum of 256. The upcoming one or two new areas being added in an upcoming update supposedly are the last ones that can be added. Again, someone else stated that there can be more zones added after that.

Why then do we get recycled zones but not completely new ones if hard drive space isn't an issue? Sure, Abyssea-La Theine is different from La Theine, and Dynamis-Qufim is different from Qufim. Recycled zone is still recycled zone.

Replying to the part that's relevant to my quote:

The reason we have recycled zones is not a memory issue at all, but a manpower issue. We could have gotten brand new zones with completely new designs and monsters, but we didn't. That's not because of the PS2, but simply because the Devs didn't do it.

Why? Well, there could be a variety of reasons. They may not have had the funding to keep a level/map designer on staff. They may have simply not wanted to devote the time to making a new level. It may have been an artistic/design decision, choosing to give us "Re-imagined" zones that we're familiar with rather than creating entirely new ones.

I agree that the game deserves full expansions and new zones, and I'm sure that the Developers would agree wholeheartedly if they had any say in the matter. What it inevitably comes down to is whether or not they receive a green light for the funding/manpower to do it.

[Zaknafein]

SE needs to stop dumping money on 14, and pony up the cash to hire the few xtra people to make some new zones for 99. Have a few new spots to explore in there with W/e they are cooking up for the "New End Game" charge us 10 bucks in a DLC package. Hell I'll pay 20-25 if that's all that's holding back new zones, and a new city.

[Concerned4FFxi]

11 is getting new content, you just have to wait. The DEV know what we want, they've said they understand we want new zones and are gonna work on making that a reality but it takes time. Before they can do so they need to fix 14, and parts of 11 to prepare 11 for 99 content. We just got the last abyssea almost a year to this day, calm down. It will happen. They are fixing the small things in 11 right know because that's all they can do for now. New content will come, you need to sit tight the DEV have said they are going to see whst they can do in the future as far as content for us. Since abyssea, SE has been reworking both 11 and 14 alot more than they have in the past. Some progress is slow, you have to be patient. As for 14, it's stupid to not fix it. Since they started installing the fixs to 14 the game has improved a whole lot. As for 14's new engine it only makes sense for them to do this because if 14 lasts as long as 11 did/will then why wouldn't SE install the new engine on its new generation mmo?

To the DEV, keep up the good work and pass my love on to the DEv mr. moogle liason, thank you.

PS: I understand content changes in 11 are for casual gamers and such and that's fine, but please when you reveal 99 endgame I wish it to be challenging like it was at 75 and no more babying the masses with atma or auto-rr. If theres two types of endgame that would be great, one version for the casual gamer and another seriuoly harder one for the hardcore ffxi fan, thank you.

[Zaknafein]

No one is blaming the Dev team. They are doing a fantastic job for having the rug pulled out from under them when the majority of the team got shifted to 14. What people in this thread, and many others are unhappy with is that SE as a corporation has decided 11 only needs a skeleton crew for development. The costs to pay additional dev team members to work on brand new zones while the current members concentrate on the content they are working on/ balance issues can be recouped. Charge 10-25$ (depending on the quantity of new zones) when 99 rolls out to offset the added dev costs.

The community is happy to pay for new areas. FFXI has stiff competition in the MMO market. Next gen tittles are being rolled out on a regular basis. WoW is releasing yet another complete expansion with new zones..new jobs etc. Now while I wouldn't subject my dog to WoW SE could stand to take a page out of their book. SE has used elements of their model already with the casual friendly modifications over the past year.

With a moderate investment for added developers, and some marketing to talk up the "New FFXI" to coincide with the 99 roll out XI could see a revitalization. Will it suddenly beat out WoW? No of course not. However, it can spread the message that people who want to come back to the game or start new will have an easier time of it that in past years. It can solidify the subscriptions it already has, and snag some new ones in the process.

Moral of the story it would recoup the extra dev costs, and solidify the game going forward.

[Catsby]

Don't kid yourself. SE would have plenty of money to spend on a handful of quality titles if they didn't piss it all away publishing crap titles every 2 weeks.

[wildsprite]

anyway, SE can't read minds and can't pilot the people's feelings: I'll never play 14 even if they'll do the 3.0 version of it, and I have a lot of friends who are thinking like me, if they shut down 11 I'll say goodbye to MMO, I don't restart from zero another MMO (fail like 14 too).

if 11 is still loved and played, a serious company HAVE TO continue supporting the game their customers want to play.

I totally agree with this and have the same attitude, 14 is fail, I tried it, only nice thing I can say about it is...well its shiny, that's it, I'm not going to drop XI to play XIV, I dont care how much work they put into it, when XI dies thats it for me

[Concerned4FFxi]

I understand your feelings about the differences between FINAL FANTASY XI and FINAL FANTASY XIV. Please understand that these games are very different entities and just as it was stated before, the operational policies as well as the size of the development team are very different as well.

Just to clarify one misconception I have been noticing for a while now...

"PS2 limitations" is not a factor for adding new areas to the game and we will in fact be adding new areas in the future, so please do not worry about this.

I LOVE YOU, that is so going to be my new Tag.

[Engel]

all the people that bought ffiv and spent a good bit of money to be able to play the game and the game ended up not being worth play or as much fun and enjoyable to play as ffxi. why would we want to change and put more money into ffiv and start paying more to play a game we didn't like to start with

[Lastranger]

The one thing im wondering about is if they are focusing on 14 and all the stuff there and planning to piggyback of the 14 engine and work for pc/ps3, and later try use that work to relaunch/rework Old code / limitation of ff11.

FF11 has a way smaller dev team but if ground work is done through 14, could it be posible to later have a ReCode team that isnt as big as u might originaly needed to go through FF11 game code/Graphics and refit it on the stuff made for 14, in a way doing 2 Remakes for the price of 1 and 1/2.

I mean they are allready making PS3 engine for 14 , why not work on making the 11 posible to run on it.
idk if the ps versions run on Opengl but if so, it could open for posibility of these games to have a unsuported client for Mac/Linux/Windows in opengl ( mayby even other devices such as Ipad/Similare products/smartphone)

Im not expecting FF14 full new graphics for a game with so much content as ff11 but it getting close to 10th aniversary, and MMO's just like a building need some Repair and remake afterlong time has passed since it was made, the ff11 game would be equivelant of a house having aged 100 years as software get's older faster the RL stuff.
In a house thats 100+ years u probably might need to do rewiring of Power/phone/data cables , Making walss thicker and floors might need rework of suport beam's etc in ordre to make it more in tune with todays demands of buildings.

Over the years u are sure to have Painted/putt new carpet's / etc in layers on such a old house just like MMO's have tons of Patch work, but after while u cant Patch stuff up anymore or put new wallpaper on before u remove the old, and a bigger restoration is needed.

Houses reap the benefits of investments into development into new houses by trying to refit new ideas into older buildings while still not having to build from scratch, yes its expensive but once u are done u wont need to do so for long time again.

Im not mad about the remake of 14 and i understand why they most likely took a lot of the FF11 team to have it remade, since it hasnt made money yet, but because more or less 11 is paying for that i would like to see 11 getting something in return at a later point of time from 14.

Also id like to say Kudos to the Dev team on 11 for their hard work even though they have been resized, i belive they are working hard to do a lot of work with less manpower then what they should have for a game like 11.
The redoing of UI was a pleasant surprize, hopefully we might get some more Tweaks done to make FF11 UI be more compatibale with modern graphics settings of today, only thing keeping me from running ff11 in a higher screen resoloution atm is the Super smal text and other stuff that dont resize well on bigger screen rez.

[RAIST]

it's already out that they are looking/working at a FFXI release for Vita. If/when that actually happens, it may open up more portability options to other platforms because of what is driving the Vita (ie: if they properly implement OpenGL for that release, it could eventually be a game changer).

[Xellith]

inb4vita limitations.

[Luso]

It's already been stated before that the PS Vita is roughly as powerful as the PS3; XI would need to be a lot more taxing on system resources like XIV is/was if limitations are to occur with the handheld. IMO, though, an MMO should never be released on a console.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Just to clarify one misconception I have been noticing for a while now...

"PS2 limitations" is not a factor for adding new areas to the game and we will in fact be adding new areas in the future, so please do not worry about this.Just to clarify. A single dungeon dose not constitute as "adding new areas" in the player's minds. They are looking for full, expansive zones.

[Atomic_Skull]

With Tanaka talking about completely revamping the user interface and the talk about graphics improvements in the article on Zam yesterday I would guess that the PS2 will be shown the door before 2012 is over.

[RAIST]

With Tanaka talking about completely revamping the user interface and the talk about graphics improvements in the article on Zam yesterday I would guess that the PS2 will be shown the door before 2012 is over.

for those with the inquiring minds, here's a link to the article:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/story.html?story=28416

[cidbahamut]

for those with the inquiring minds, here's a link to the article:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/story.html?story=28416

Apparently they still have absolutely no understanding of the underlying issues people have with Voidwatch.

[FrankReynolds]

THey still don't get that MORE LOGS DOES NOT == BETTER DROP RATES!

[Runespider]

Apparently they still have absolutely no understanding of the underlying issues people have with Voidwatch.

They undetstand, they just think we will swallow it and keep doing VW for YEARS. Incredibly cheap reused content that lasts for years = delicious dev team candy. The bodies aren't even good, only reason we want them is cause they damn glow and there is nothing else to do atm.

[Juri_Licious]

SE should hire an elitist FFXI player and a casual FFXI player that helps them with ideas for new content.

[Xellith]

SE should hire an elitist FFXI player and a casual FFXI player that helps them with ideas for new content.

Well as long as they whine and complain instead of just lurk

[Zaknafein]

Ito addresses the problem as being another issue of balance. "Originally, Voidwatch was designed as content for an alliance of 18 players. If you go in with 18, there will actually be a higher rate of reward than any other content in FFXI."

Oh that is rich!

[FrankReynolds]

"Originally, Voidwatch was designed as content for an alliance of 18 players. If you go in with 18, there will actually be a higher rate of reward than any other content in FFXI."


Why can't this guy get it through his thick head that having more items drop is not good if no one who needs them gets them?

[Luvbunny]

Read that interview, what a big huge let down.... that's Tanaka for you. If this is what they feel about Abyssea, well, I am not sure what to look forward in the future.. It sounds like more grinding, frustration, and a whole lot more drama coming right up. It's great while it last though, Abyssea hands down is the best expansion to date!!

[FrankReynolds]

Interesting to note that they said Tanaka was involved through the whole abyssea portion.

[Runespider]

Interesting to note that they said Tanaka was involved through the whole abyssea portion.

Yeah it's written down so it must be true. Not like it matters anymore since they have stated that they think abyssea was a bad mistake and from here on out they are going to be back to the old ways of screwing the playerbase.

Enjoy your voidwatch drop rates, enjoy last stand with .0001 drop rates on gear that is .0001 worse/better than what you already have. It's all fun from here on out.

Can't believe they won't budge on Voidwatch drop system, they won't even come half way. This is like the old king system all over again. /tanakalaugh

[Sappho]

Just to clarify. A single dungeon dose not constitute as "adding new areas" in the player's minds. They are looking for full, expansive zones.

Has FFXI had an actual *new* zone added since 2006 with WotG?

Re-skinning old zones (while brilliant from a dev standpoint) isn't the same as making a new zone.

[Greatguardian]

SE should hire an elitist FFXI player and a casual FFXI player that helps them with ideas for new content.

I'll volunteer for both positions considering I fit both criteria.

[Atomic_Skull]

The bodies aren't even good, only reason we want them is cause they damn glow and there is nothing else to do atm.

Toci's Harness is the best SA/TA/WS piece for THF right now.


Yeah it's written down so it must be true.

Oh I have no doubt he was involved in Abyssea seeing as it was originally ment to be FFXI godmode that would let people feel like they had "won" FFXI in order to get them into FFXIV as quickly as possible.

[Atomic_Skull]

(double post)

[FrankReynolds]

Toci's Harness is the best SA/TA/WS piece for THF right now.

I dunno, when I used to look at Homam / Skadi back in the days, I was like: "that shit is a game changer. That will separate me form thieves that don't have it"

When I look at Toci's, I'm like: "It's a little better, but man that system sucks..... I think I'll wait until another update comes out. I'm sure there will be a new better body that is less soul crushing to obtain."

[Ritsuka]

Well they are pretty much capped on PS2 hard drive space due to the partition limits Sony has on the system. That means a whole new expansion is pretty much out of the question.

In all honestly i dont see how the ps2 hard drive space has anythingto do with it. I mean 4 real what freaking game on the ps2 use's the hard drive? umm let me think. Resident Evil outbreak (which isnt online anymore) um... Socom U.S navy Seals 2 (which nobody plays the new maps if yo udont belive check the game yourself and see how many ppl use those maps) I never played Socom 3 so idont know if it use's the hard drive then there's Final Fantasy 11 please let me know what other games that you know use's the hard drive. Most ppl got the hard drive to play Final Fantasy and if thats the case then you should still have 20 gigs + of hard drive space

[Atomic_Skull]

I dunno, when I used to look at Homam / Skadi back in the days, I was like: "that shit is a game changer. That will separate me form thieves that don't have it"

When I look at Toci's, I'm like: "It's a little better, but man that system sucks..... I think I'll wait until another update comes out. I'm sure there will be a new better body that is less soul crushing to obtain."

And it will probably be Skadi's Cuirie +5 and be as or more soul crushing.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

right now.Wait 2 weeks.

[OgreBattle]

FFXI should be made available on the iPad


XI's largest problem though is it's terrible UI. The game also gives you little direction in how to start off. It's off putting to Final Fantasy fans.