One Tank Job Out of 20 Is Bad Game Design

[svengalis]

So I am doing Voidwatch and basically we have to stop because our only Paladin out of the 18 people we have has to go. Seriously why design a game where there is only one real tank when you have 20 other jobs to choose from. The thing I like about Abyssea is it eliminated a need for from one tank only. Can choose from multiple jobs in Abyssea(PLD, THF, MNK, NIN, WAR, hell just about any melee job if you got the right mages healing) Now he we are with voidwatch which basically requires a PLD tank, a job hardly anyone plays anymore. Great job SE. I love the new content.... (sarcasm in case the developers don't get my drift.)

[Alhanelem]

There isn't "one tank job' and it's not "bad game desgin" even if so. Does every game need 5 different ways of playing every concieveable gameplay role for it to be well designed?

No.


Now he we are with voidwatch which basically requires a PLD tank, a job hardly anyone plays anymore. Great job SE.I agree, great job SE. A wholly underused and underrated job finally gets a place in the spotlight. This is a good thing, not a bad thing.

[Greatguardian]

Inb4 the Paladin Subforum regulars catch wind of this.

Better fasten your seatbelts, folks. We're in for a bumpy ride.

[Yinnyth]

One healer out of 20 jobs is poor game design too. Since whm does it better than every other job, obviously it's the only healer. One treasure hunter out of 20 jobs is poor game design too. Sure, rng has bounty shot, but thf has much higher TH available. Only one nuking job, only one ranged physical damage job, only one... darnit, do I need to go on?

Just because one job is the BEST at a role, doesn't mean it's the ONLY one that can fill the spot.

[Zagen]

So I am doing Voidwatch and basically we have to stop because our only Paladin out of the 18 people we have has to go. Seriously why design a game where there is only one real tank when you have 20 other jobs to choose from. The thing I like about Abyssea is it eliminated a need for from one tank only. Can choose from multiple jobs in Abyssea(PLD, THF, MNK, NIN, WAR, hell just about any melee job if you got the right mages healing) Now he we are with voidwatch which basically requires a PLD tank, a job hardly anyone plays anymore. Great job SE. I love the new content.... (sarcasm in case the developers don't get my drift.)

So do you do "endgame" with gimps? I mean you only have 1 player who leveled PLD?

From what I've seen and heard from other people doing VW heavily a non-Ochain/Aegis PLD, a PLD still functions as a tank it just takes 2 of them. Now I know co-tanking is a completely new idea that was never ever used since 2003 or anything crazy like that but you could try it. It takes 1-2 weeks to get a job from 1 to 90 with relevant skills for most casual players someone focusing on endgame events on any sort of fixed schedule can get that done in a few days.

[Tamoa]

In my shell we usually have 1 or 2 ukon wars tanking... Even if we do have a pld present, the wars are still tanking the majority of the fight.

[Yarly]

What's more pathetic is that out of 18 people, with abyssea having been released for so long, only one of them had PLD leveled and geared. What would you call that? Bad human design?

[Rearden]

I wasn't aware PLD was useful for anything aside from tanking the adds in Zilart areas.

Do people actually use it for something else? lol

[Monchat]

So I am doing Voidwatch and basically we have to stop because our only Paladin out of the 18 people we have has to go. Seriously why design a game where there is only one real tank when you have 20 other jobs to choose from. The thing I like about Abyssea is it eliminated a need for from one tank only. Can choose from multiple jobs in Abyssea(PLD, THF, MNK, NIN, WAR, hell just about any melee job if you got the right mages healing) Now he we are with voidwatch which basically requires a PLD tank, a job hardly anyone plays anymore. Great job SE. I love the new content.... (sarcasm in case the developers don't get my drift.)

PLD is the lazy way of doing those fight. People use it for the same reason they kept using PLD for dynamis, limbus sky etc when everything could be easilly DD burned. From what I read and did, any kind off DD can tank those mobs. I mean, you have eighteen peoples in your allaince to back up a few DDs, its not like cure bombing was any problem. If the tank dies? ok no problem, replace with one of the 5 other DDs.... You dont need no PLD to throw meat bodies at a mob. If you were low manning maybe, but im sure those mobs are zergable, just like city T1~4. Not to mention nearly every DD has access to cap or close to cap PDT, MDT, evasion...

Also, I dont know why having only one job tank is a bad game design. Your Ls has only on PLD for one reason: they dont like the paladin jobs. Its been the case forever, people dont like tanking jobs in general. Making another one wont solve anything. Thats why making DD tanks was one of the best thing this game brought ( started seriously @ aht urghan, when people started to DD burn everything).

[svengalis]

What's more pathetic is that out of 18 people, with abyssea having been released for so long, only one of them had PLD leveled and geared. What would you call that? Bad human design?

Nope, why bother with PLD when they are next to useless in Abyssea and before VW Abyssea was current endgame.

[Daniel]

Because anyone can level pld it seems perfectly legit. its not like the other people in your LS don't have plds, and if somehow they don't, a week in Abyssinia can fix that both gear wise and level wise.

[Zagen]

Nope, why bother with PLD when they are next to useless in Abyssea and before VW Abyssea was current endgame.
If by endgame you mean because you could do it at the respective level caps and there wasn't any real endgame for a while then I'd agree with you. Abyssea was "endgame" for players who wanted it to feel that way because in reality it didn't actually require any heavy level of skill or real coordination.

Don't get me wrong I love Abyssea for this type of game play but it wasn't endgame. Heck doing VNM trials low-man has provided more of a challenge and requirement for strategies than Abyssea ever did for my trio.

[Alhanelem]

Abyssea was "endgame" for players who wanted it to feel that way because in reality it didn't actually require any heavy level of skill or real coordination.

"endgame" isn't "super hard content." "endgame" is "content that you do at the end of the game. Which, abyssea is. Technically it's endgame. Is there much that's hard about it? Not really. Doesn't mean it's not endgame though.

[hiko]

Because anyone can level pld it seems perfectly legit. its not like the other people in your LS don't have plds, and if somehow they don't, 2days in Abyssinia can fix that both gear wise and level wise.

ftfy!
we talk about a 17man shell (the pld left). they can easily get >3 geared PLD (w/o Ochain) in few days

[Zagen]

"endgame" isn't "super hard content." "endgame" is "content that you do at the end of the game. Which, abyssea is. Technically it's endgame. Is there much that's hard about it? Not really. Doesn't mean it's not endgame though.
So you considered merit parties at 75 endgame events? By your definition anything you and/or your group decides to wait until level cap to do is "endgame".

Edit: To be clear I understand you want endgame to mean anything you wait until the end of the game to do but it has never been that broad of a definition to the player base at least none of the players I've gone with, interacted with on forums from social to hardcore players.

[svengalis]

So you considered merit parties at 75 endgame events? By your definition anything you and/or your group decides to wait until level cap to do is "endgame".

Edit: To be clear I understand you want endgame to mean anything you wait until the end of the game to do but it has never been that broad of a definition to the player base at least none of the players I've gone with, interacted with on forums from social to hardcore players.

If Abyssea was not end game excuse me but what other High level content was there to do? Dynamis? Limbus? Sky? Sea? Salvage? Hardly anyone does that anymore.

[Alhanelem]

So you considered merit parties at 75 endgame events?Sure, why not. I personally label it grinding instea, because a merit party isn't an "event," it's just killing random monsters. But whatever suits you for the sake of this argument.

The point is, endgame isn't specifically tied to difficulty. It is tied to an event that normally expects you to have a job/class at the highest level.

[Zagen]

If Abyssea was not end game excuse me but what other High level content was there to do? Dynamis? Limbus? Sky? Sea? Salvage? Hardly anyone does that anymore.

Since you missed it:


If by endgame you mean because you could do it at the respective level caps and there wasn't any real endgame for a while then I'd agree with you. Abyssea was "endgame" for players who wanted it to feel that way because in reality it didn't actually require any heavy level of skill or real coordination.


Sure, why not. I personally label it grinding instea, because a merit party isn't an "event," it's just killing random monsters. But whatever suits you for the sake of this argument.

The point is, endgame isn't specifically tied to difficulty. It is tied to an event that normally expects you to have a job/class at the highest level.

If you schedule every Mon/Wed/Fri from 6pm to 10pm is Merit time, doesn't that make it an event your LS does?

You're the first person to ever tell me merit parties were endgame... BTW you could go any job at 75 to merit parties there were lots of different setups some better than others but merit parties never required a specific job. As to the levels some jobs didn't even have to be at 75, a level 48 RDM, 55 SCH, 41 WHM was enough of a healer, a level 49 COR was enough for buffs? Sure they got crap EXP but it didn't mean that they didn't function or weren't seen in merit parties.

Maybe I'm just too old school for the current generation, endgame equated to an event that required skill and people to be at level cap. When you joined an endgame LS it wasn't a merit party LS it was an LS after gods, relics, HNMs. You know things that actually required decent skill and gear, things that the "casual/social" players needed to step up their game to do.

[svengalis]

Since you missed it:





If you schedule every Mon/Wed/Fri from 6pm to 10pm is Merit time, doesn't that make it an event your LS does?

You're the first person to ever tell me merit parties were endgame... BTW you could go any job at 75 to merit parties there were lots of different setups some better than others but merit parties never required a specific job. As to the levels some jobs didn't even have to be at 75, a level 48 RDM, 55 SCH, 41 WHM was enough of a healer, a level 49 COR was enough for buffs? Sure they got crap EXP but it didn't mean that they didn't function or weren't seen in merit parties.

Maybe I'm just too old school for the current generation, endgame equated to an event that required skill and people to be at level cap. When you joined an endgame LS it wasn't a merit party LS it was an LS after gods, relics, HNMs. You know things that actually required decent skill and gear, things that the "casual/social" players needed to step up their game to do.

Endgame is what ever it takes the high levels do bro. Abyssea was/still is endgame. I don't know why you don't consider it to be.

[Alhanelem]

If you schedule every Mon/Wed/Fri from 6pm to 10pm is Merit time, doesn't that make it an event your LS does?Things you plan to do are not events in this context. Events in this context means content players get together for. Not simple grinding.


You're the first person to ever tell me merit parties were endgame...I'm not, and they're not. I was just playing along with your fallacious logic.

Grinding is not an event. Abyssea, Dynamis, Einherjar, Salvage, Limbus, etc. are events. For the most part, I still consider them all endgame, though only Dynamis and Abyssea in this example list contain content specifically made for max level.


Endgame is what ever it takes the high levels do bro. Abyssea was/still is endgame. I don't know why you don't consider it to be. To him, the event has to be super mega hard to be endgame. Not that many NMs in abyssea aren't difficult without a brew.

[Draylo]

I wasn't aware PLD was useful for anything aside from tanking the adds in Zilart areas.

Do people actually use it for something else? lol

Oh yeah? You don't use a PLD to tank the NMs? Cool, that's interesting.

[Zagen]

Endgame is what ever it takes the high levels do bro. Abyssea was/still is endgame. I don't know why you don't consider it to be.

Because a level 60 can solo a NM with a brew. Because most NMs in Abyssea can be soloed without a brew, extra people are only brought along for the procs, zerg after procs, you want to spend time with friends even though they aren't "needed", or because the skill/gear/atma is lacking to solo.

Because we haven't reached the new endgame limit (99) so abyssea was placeholder at best, I already pointed this out.


Things you plan to do are not events in this context. Events in this context means content players get together for. Not simple grinding.

I'm not, and they're not. I was just playing along with your fallacious logic.

If you plan something with more than 1 player like in my example then players are getting together...


To him, the event has to be super mega hard to be endgame. Not that many NMs in abyssea aren't difficult without a brew.

VW is super mega hard? Neo Dynamis is super mega hard?

Sorry nothing in Abyssea is hard, maybe before people learned how NMs worked but not now. Brews are only there to chain kill, speed up a kill in a small man group, or for the hell of it. If you need a brew to kill anything in abyssea then I don't know what to say really.

[svengalis]

Because a level 60 can solo a NM with a brew. Because most NMs in Abyssea can be soloed without a brew, extra people are only brought along for the procs, zerg after procs, you want to spend time with friends even though they aren't "needed", or because the skill/gear/atma is lacking to solo.

Because we haven't reached the new endgame limit (99) so abyssea was placeholder at best, I already pointed this out.


If you plan something with more than 1 player like in my example then players are getting together...



VW is super mega hard? Neo Dynamis is super mega hard?

Sorry nothing in Abyssea is hard, maybe before people learned how NMs worked but not now. Brews are only there to chain kill, speed up a kill in a small man group, or for the hell of it. If you need a brew to kill anything in abyssea then I don't know what to say really.

So you don't brew Rani, Apademak, Shinryu, Pantokrato... what server are you on I need to join your LS.

[Zagen]

So you don't brew Rani, Apademak, Shinryu, Pantokrato... what server are you on I need to join your LS.

Need to brew? No. Brew to speed kill? Yes. They aren't the same thing, if you answer yes to "need to brew" then its no wonder your LS is doing VW with 1 player who's leveled PLD and why you're crying about PLD being needed is flawed game design.

[Rearden]

I've 2boxd all of those except Apademak lol. no brew.

[Greatguardian]

So you don't brew Rani, Apademak, Shinryu, Pantokrato... what server are you on I need to join your LS.

None of those mobs are particularly difficult =/ I've killed them all without brews. Brews are just faster, especially when you have multiple pops lined up. There is no reason not to Wildfire Brew things like Apademak and Dragua for Emp items to save time.

It's always been a fair consensus that Abyssea is casual content, pure and simple. Call it "Endgame" if you really want to, it's still casual content. Voidwatch is not casual content. Neo Dynamis NMs are not casual content. Thus, since 80-90% of the playerbase is casual, 80-90% of the posters on this board don't do this content. That doesn't mean that the content is unpopular or bad, it just means it's not casual-friendly. That's fine with me.

Casuals have an extremely large event that they can do solo if need be, and make consistent, if slow, progress on a lot of nice gear. Hardcore players now, after a very long time without content, have a fun and challenging endgame event for them to do.

However, it will always follow that events tailored for the hardcore playerbase are harder than events tailored for the casual playerbase. If that means requiring a casual or "average" group to use Paladins in order to survive it, that's what they're stuck with. If Voidwatch is straight up too difficult, then maybe the group in question would just be happier doing casual content. Different strokes for different folks. Voidwatch was not designed for everyone, nor should it have been. It's for hardcore players who need fun and challenging content in order to remain interested.

There's absolutely no point in entertaining Analhelm's nitpicking about the definition of Endgame. We all know that Voidwatch and Abyssea are nowhere close to comparable, because they were designed around the resources and abilities of two very different groups of people. If "Casual" players want harder content, they should stop being casual and do harder content. If "Hardcore" players think Voidwatch is too difficult without 9001 Paladins, they should stop being "Hardcore" and do easier content until they have the means to do hardcore content.

[Alhanelem]

Sorry nothing in Abyssea is hardMaybe if your favorite job is one of the three most popular or you are a godly pro nothing in abyssea is hard, but for the 99% of us who aren't godly pros, there are plenty of decent challenges to be had in abyssea.

Please go beat shinryu without using a brew then tell me nothing in abyssea is "hard." There are many NMs that you can't kid around with. The average player is not going to beat Rani or some of the other higher end NMs in abyssea without a brew or without great difficulty. Maybe *you* find nothing in abyssea to be challenging, but there are challenges to be had for people who aren't as ultra pro elite as you.

[Zagen]

Maybe if your favorite job is one of the three most popular or you are a godly pro nothing in abyssea is hard, but for the 99% of us who aren't godly pros, there are plenty of decent challenges to be had in abyssea.

Please go beat shinryu without using a brew then tell me nothing in abyssea is "hard." There are many NMs that you can't kid around with. The average player is not going to beat Rani or some of the other higher end NMs in abyssea without a brew or without great difficulty. Maybe *you* find nothing in abyssea to be challenging, but there are challenges to be had for people who aren't as ultra pro elite as you.

ITT: Leveling jobs takes forever. Learning how to be competent on your non-favorite job is impossible.

First time I cleared Shinryu was with a bunch of pink and perle DDs with a WHM healer and a BLU healer (me) no brew was used because while going for Red and Blue !! we ended up taking off enough damage. Didn't end up getting Red that run.

If Abyssea challenges you that's cool. Don't come into a thread about content designed for players who wanted a greater challenge than Abyssea had to offer expecting pleas to make it easier to be welcome with open arms.

Oh and for the record my favorite jobs are COR, BLU, PLD, and BST. None of those are prime jobs for abyssea, that didn't stop me from leveling the jobs that were so I could get what I wanted done efficiently.

[Lokithor]

Maybe I'm just too old school for the current generation, endgame equated to an event that required skill and people to be at level cap. When you joined an endgame LS it wasn't a merit party LS it was an LS after gods, relics, HNMs. You know things that actually required decent skill and gear, things that the "casual/social" players needed to step up their game to do.Just about fell out of my chair laughing at this one, sorry. None of the events listed required anything like decent skill and gear. It required routine strategies, claim bots and a tolerance for mind numbing, repetitive time sinks.

Hurray for SE! VW will soon become a skill-less routine and the requirement for 1500 Heavy Metal Plates is SE's way of returning to the good old days of mind numbing, repetitive time sinks, thus meeting the requirement to be called "End Game" in some people's eyes.

[Alhanelem]

ITT: Leveling jobs takes forever. Learning how to be competent on your non-favorite job is impossible.ITT: People making up things people said in this thread that they didn't.

Some people don't want to play some jobs. People want to play what they find to be fun. No one said leveling took forever.

I'm fully competent on the jobs I enjoy playing. I'm not a super uber elite, but I'm "competent."

Different things provide challenge to different people. Just because something isn't hard for *you* doesn't mean it isn't hard for somebody. Difficulty doesn't define endgame. If you had to be come an elitist and level all 20 jobs to make something easy, then it's not easy. It took a lot of work for you to gain power over the content.


Don't come into a thread about content designed for players who wanted a greater challengeThey can't make something that's a substantially greater challenge than abyssea without making it something that 99% of the playerbase won't be able to complete. Some Voidewatch content and some of the new additions to Dynamis and WoE are perfectly good challenges. There is not a lack of challenges to be had in this game. I'm sorry, but unleess you're a super god, there are things in the game that have challenge to them. Not everyone has an elitist linkshell with an entire team of players that all play their job to absolute perfection.

The bar for what is challenging should not be set at "What someone who has leveled every job to 95 and has good gear for all of those jobs and has mastered all the ins and outs of all of those jobs would find challenging." It should be set at what the typical player who has at least one max level job would find interesting.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Maybe if your favorite job is one of the three most popular or you are a godly pro nothing in abyssea is hard, but for the 99% of us who aren't godly pros, there are plenty of decent challenges to be had in abyssea.

Please go beat shinryu without using a brew then tell me nothing in abyssea is "hard." There are many NMs that you can't kid around with. The average player is not going to beat Rani or some of the other higher end NMs in abyssea without a brew or without great difficulty. Maybe *you* find nothing in abyssea to be challenging, but there are challenges to be had for people who aren't as ultra pro elite as you.

There is a difference in fights that are challenging and people that are stupid. Guess what most of the playerbase is.

Oh, and Shin is beatable without a brew, brew was just fastest and most expensive way to kill him.

[Alhanelem]

Oh, and Shin is beatable without a brew, brew was just fastest and most expensive way to kill him. Yes, it most certainly is. But it's hardly an easy fight. That's the point. It's not easy. Several other NMs in abyssea are not "easy." THe overall difficulty of all of abyssea is not that high, no. But there are challenges to be had for the layperson.


There is a difference in fights that are challenging and people that are stupid. Guess what most of the playerbase is.
Your sentence doesn't even make sense, but no, not most people in this game are stupid. Most people in this game may not play it to the level that you do, but that doesn't make them "stupid."

[Neisan_Quetz]

Most people playing this game are stupid.

Stupid people make easy fights challenging.

[Hayward]

There is a difference in fights that are challenging and people that are stupid. Guess what most of the playerbase is.

Oh, and Shin is beatable without a brew, brew was just fastest and most expensive way to kill him.

Aren't we quick to shoot off at the mouth? You want to be challenged? Take on Shinryu or any body seal NM or +2 item NM with no atma or cruor buffs. I'd bet anything that you'd be screaming bloody murder at how not-so-easy these NMs are.

Who am I kidding? You'd probably run scared at the thought of such a dare.

I'm not ready to dismiss Voidwatch as an event until I start seeing /shouts that say "this-or-that job with this-or-that piece of gear only" or some blowhole spouting off about "efficiency" in leaving out certain jobs. Stinginess in rewarding effort, though, doesn't help convince me of it's viability long-term.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I'm being baited by someone who puts their +1 armor in sig? I mean really?

Actually, I suppose Abyssea is hard for you.

I did a chesspiece without cruor/atma for shits and giggles, can we count that?

[Rearden]

If I can 2box it it is an easy fight.

I 2box shin, no meds except holy waters. It is an easy fight.

If you want to do Shin without buffs, then you're going to need an Aegis. Arguing that events aren't good if you need perfect gear to be successful at them is a poor argument. There is content for people without good gear and there is content for people with. Enjoy what you can, if you want to enjoy something more or something less then do what you need to do to get to that point.

[Alhanelem]

Most people playing this game are stupid.

Stupid people make easy fights challenging.
No, stupid people think most people playing this game are stupid.

There's a huge difference between players who aren't experts and players who are stupid.


If I can 2box it it is an easy fight.If you can 2box it but you can't 1box it, then it's not easy for everyone. Not everyone has or wants to pay for multiple accounts. That doesn't make them bad players.

NOT EVERYTHING IS EASY FOR EVERYONE. That doesn't make those people stupid people.

[Greatguardian]

No, stupid people think most people playing this game are stupid.

There's a huge difference between players who aren't experts and players who are stupid.

If you can 2box it but you can't 1box it, then it's not easy for everyone. Not everyone has or wants to pay for multiple accounts. That doesn't make them bad players.

NOT EVERYTHING IS EASY FOR EVERYONE. That doesn't make those people stupid people.

[Comment deleted by Moderator]

Say you're not "stupid" or "gimp"? Fine. But you're still stubborn, and that's just as bad if not worse when it comes to completing content in this game. If you insist on making things ten times harder than they have to be, that still doesn't make those things innately hard. It just means you're making them hard. Abyssea is easy, period. Adding handicaps onto that in the name of whatever the hell you want, be it fun or stubbornness or stupidity, will make it harder - but only by virtue of that handicap you choose to impose.

[Comment deleted by Moderator]

[Rearden]

tldr get back on your meds

[Babekeke]

so you can't do Abyssea easily as a Pet job main.

I strongly disagree with this after watching a BST solo Turul. (much to my annoyance... I wanted to brew him... BST took about an hour to kill it without a brew)

[Malamasala]

What's more pathetic is that out of 18 people, with abyssea having been released for so long, only one of them had PLD leveled and geared. What would you call that? Bad human design?

It is called band wagon mentality. They only level what is considered good at the time.

[Alhanelem]

It is called band wagon mentality. They only level what is considered good at the time.
quoted for truth


Comment deleted by Moderator [Comment deleted by Moderator] And I have other jobs. I'm not speaking for myself, I'm speaking for "The 99 percent." Meaning, all the people who aren't elitists and still find a fun challenge in things that elitists call easy. If people don't say something that's a load of crap, I won't have any reason to speak against it. You think XYZ thing is easy. That's great. Some people think it isn't. That doesn't automatically make those people idiots, and that is what I take issue with. Although you are now taking a nasty offensive attitude with me, you at least don't normally stereotypically declare everyone idiots.

That's all there is to say on that. If you think something's easy, great. Good for you (I'm serious, not sarcastic). Just don't act like EVERYONE is like you and thinks the same thing.

[Zagen]

I'm speaking for "The 99 percent." Meaning, all the people who aren't elitists and still find a fun challenge in things that elitists call easy.
Why are you speaking for them in a thread for content that wasn't designed for them?

[Afania]

ITT: Leveling jobs takes forever. Learning how to be competent on your non-favorite job is impossible.



I've tried to lv MNK when Abyssea was MNKwagon just so it's "easier" for me to get things done, and I couldn't take it past lv 13. The job is boring as fk to play with, and I can't help if I fall asleep whenever I play it.

So no, lving a job is hard for me, I can't overcome boringness when I play the game for fun not for work. If it's easy for you, good for you. But don't use your standard to judge others.

And getting a second account is hard for me too, period. Again, you can afford $26 doesn't mean I can, not everyone live the same life, I have more important stuff to spend money on. If you can afford extra account, good for you. Just leave others alone.

And stop thinking you're so elite and better than others just because you can stand the boringness of lving a job you don't like to play with. It has nothing to do with your skill/gear/knowdge and w/e. Like playing MNK in Abyssea is hard? You pretty much just engage and pop JA/WS.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Like playing MNK in Abyssea is hard? You pretty much just engage and pop JA/WS.

And stupid people can't even do that properly.

[Rearden]

Yeah, any MNK can 2 man Shinryu/Rani etc. Just JA and WS.

[Mirage]

I don't give a shit about all the personal attack and stuff in this thread, I just wanted to say I don't really consider anything that can be 3-4manned with average gear (empy +1, no empy weapon) without any real chance of wiping to be hard. This probably includes 98% of abyssea, including most zone bosses and catuare. Unbrewed, that is.

Even pantokrator is more annoying than he is hard. It isn't hard to put together a strategy with like 6-8 people where you cannot possibly lose, unless your tank and healers DC.

Most fights actually get harder the more bodies you throw at it anyway.

Is it hard for certain jobs to solo certain NMs? Sure. Does it make the NM inherently hard when it was designed to be taken down by a group? Not really. That's like saying Windurst mission 10 is the hardest fight in the game "cause i want to solo it on whm".

Almost every fight in this game is designed to be beaten by a group, saying they are hard because you can't solo them on whatever job is just ridiculous.

[kewitt]

or maybe you could take the week to level PLD to level 95 which includes getting skill ups, problem solved. Now your LS will have 2 PLDs.

[Alhanelem]

I honestly see it being difficult for them to design a fight to be won by 6-18 that can't also be one by the 2-4 of the pro-est of the pros. In virtually all cases, the difficulty in a large group comes from TP spam. When you lowman anything, that TP spam is suddenly not a problem. The only real counter to that is super high regain so the monster spams TP no matter what.

Probably the only thing that will please you is a new Absolute Virtue-type mob...


Like playing MNK in Abyssea is hard? You pretty much just engage and pop JA/WS.Like playing WHM in *anywhere* is hard? You pretty much just sit there and pop cures.

..... Anything can be made to sound super easy by oversimplifying.

"Like playing Tetris on a gameboy is hard? You pretty much just stack the blocks..."

"Like playing Battletoads on NES with 2 players is hard? you pretty much just get to the end of each level.."

*ahem* *deep breath*

Anyway.... as far as the actual topic goes, as I said before: I don't see any reason to complain that a job which is hardly ever used these days is getting a chance to shine in an event. Shouldn't we all be happy PLD has a purpose?

[Zagen]

I honestly see it being difficult for them to design a fight to be won by 6-18 that can't also be one by the 2-4 of the pro-est of the pros. In virtually all cases, the difficulty in a large group comes from TP spam. When you lowman anything, that TP spam is suddenly not a problem. The only real counter to that is super high regain so the monster spams TP no matter what.

When Voidwatch requires almost every single job/spell/ja for procs as options, lower your player count = lower proc rate = lower drop rate = not really worth small manning. There's a video floating around of a SCH soloing the Harpie VWNM so it doesn't take a huge group but without procs your drops suck and you've just wasted your time.

TP Spam if it is a concern at all is something that only happens with ignorant players. So 6 vs. 18 TP spam should be less for the 18 as they'll proc faster as well as kill faster barring your example of a regain mob.

[Alhanelem]

When Voidwatch requires almost every single job/spell/ja for procs as options, lower your player count = lower proc rate = lower drop rate = not really worth small manning.Right, but that's just encouragement to roll with larger groups. It's nothing to do with difficulty.

Anyway, the point of that paragraph was about making a fight hard. The qiestion is how do you make a fight too hard to low-man but not too hard for a large group? I guess pandy warden sort of had the idea by spawning lots of damaging adds, but I can't think of many other ways to do hard without doing "almost impossible" to the best of the best

[Comments deleted by Moderator]

[Zagen]

Right, but that's just encouragement to roll with larger groups. It's nothing to do with difficulty.
The longer a fight takes the more risk involved. That in and over itself makes the fight more difficult for smaller groups over larger groups because a smaller group will take longer than a larger group. For example duoing Sobek if it gets off 2 Tyrant Tusks that kills both players the fight becomes harder and you must attempt to zombie it. When there are more than 2 people the fight becomes easier because even if 2 people die to Tyrant Tusk there are others to fill in the spot.

Using my Sobek example, more people means more job options becoming available thus allowing for more proc options. So not only does a larger group increase your chance of surviving a bad luck case but it also increases your chances at drops.

[Greatguardian]

Making content harder than it has to be =/= Content is hard.

Though, on a somewhat-related note, I find it kinda funny that my Voidwatch LS has been recruiting for a few weeks now, and has received applications from plenty of Relic/Empyrean players with some of the best gear and the most useful jobs in the game, yet we haven't received a single application from a bloody Drk, Drg, or Bst.

You know it's bad when you have to change your recruitment page from "Have a bloody mage or a Relic/Mythic/Emp", to "Just don't be retarded, we need more DDs for procs".

[Alhanelem]

Making content harder than it has to be =/= Content is hard.I'd be interested in knowing how you determine how hard something should be. (meant with all seriousness, not sarcasm)

[Greatguardian]

I'd be interested in knowing how you determine how hard something should be. (meant with all seriousness, not sarcasm)

If it is easily done in a setup or a strategy that is easy to assemble or implement, then it is easy.

Everything in Abyssea can be killed Mnk+Whm, or full proc'd Whm+Nin+War+Mnk+Blm+Blu.

Likewise, it is extremely easy to level and gear those jobs with Abyssean and GoV EXP.

FFXI's dynamic job system isn't there to promote job individuality, it's there to promote job synthesis as a viable tactical option. If something is harder to do on X, the Developers expect you to change your job to Y. That's part of the decision-making process that is expected of players who have the ability to level every job in the game in the same character.

Mnk+Whm may be cookie-cutter, but it's easy and a viable option for literally anyone. If you choose to make poor tactical decisions for sentimental reasons, then you are actively making content harder than it was intended to be.

[Alhanelem]

(Major edit)

I feel like I might be jumping the gun here, so I'll back up a bit. I feel like you're personally addressing me because you see my character set with main job as PUP. I'm not asking that the jobs I want to play be able to win at everything. But every job should be useful for winning at *something* meaningful. Any job that isn't reasonably part of a sound winning strategy for one or more pieces of endgame content is just extra baggage that shouldn't be there in the first place.

I'm not judging the difficulty of an event based on whether or not PUP can win at it. I hope that's not what your thinking, and I also hope you're not subtly trying to pick on me here. Maybe you can clear this up for me.

[Rearden]

No one personally attacks me because my main job is PUP

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I strongly disagree with this after watching a BST solo Turul. (much to my annoyance... I wanted to brew him... BST took about an hour to kill it without a brew)

1. The point wasn't the length of time, fact is a PET job can solo 99+% of Abyssea.

2. I'm calling bull**** on 1 hour to kill something especially Turul.

[Neisan_Quetz]

1 hour is perfectly believable especially with the quality of BST I've seen, I don't know why you think it isn't.

[Qeepel]

Hello everyone,

I'd like to remind everyone to please refrain from making inflammatory comments towards others and off topic discussions. Such language and actions are considered a violation of the forum guidelines, and can result in the termination of your account.

Remember, everyone is entitled to their opinion. There is no need to make inflammatory comments towards other members that have opposing or different points of views or opinions. The same goes for those who feel the need to defend themselves against such comments, which is needless and futile. Such behavior is not constructive and only clutters the thread. If you have a problem with a post, please place the player on your ignore list and report the post if necessary.

Thank you.

-SQUARE ENIX MODERATOR

[Alderin]

Sorry I read half the thread and got bored of people arguing over what "end game content" is - so didn't read past page 3.

In response to the OP's topic however - PLD is a luxury. A handful of jobs can successfully tank T1-T4 (sandy, windy, basty) VW nm's reasonably comfortably. Might need a few extra cures, yet can still be done with a few setup modifications. In fact you can probably do this for Jeuno/Zilart nm's as well - with the right setup.

As for Q.Q about not having a PLD at your disposal - at ragnarok I would nearly run out of fingers to count on if I were to name all the Ochain/Aegis PLD's I knew on here that tank VW nm's on a consistent basis. Have you not noticed the large amount of Ochains that have popped up ever since VW came out?

If you don't have a PLD in the LS - shout for it! It's not hard - I am pretty certain you will be able to find one..

As mentioned in previous posts - What is a WHM designed for? Healing. What is a BLM designed for? Nuking. What is a PLD designed for? Tanking!

Every role has it's specialists - yet also has it's hybrids. A SCH can assist with heals & nukes, a NIN can tank, enfeeb & light DD, a MNK can heavy DD & tank moderately (ie. Hybrid). A PLD is designed to tank (ie. Specialist).

So in summary - No, PLD is not the only tank. Other jobs *can* do it, just not as well as PLD can (Abyssea drops that theory out the window however, due to atmas).

[MarkovChain]

If you insist on making things ten times harder than they have to be, that still doesn't make those things innately hard.

The same can be said to anything in the game. Voidwatch is cake. AV was cake at 75 (now it's pretty clear that they were expecting you to bring several alliances to keep the fight going after meteor).

[Teakwood]

AFK laughing myself into a tiny little ball.

"Give Paladin a purpose again!"

*patches later*

"Baw, Paladin has a purpose again!"

[Alhanelem]

AV was cake at 75So how many times did you beat it at 75 with legitimate tactics that didn't result in a patch to change AV, or that didn't get one or more people suspended or banned?

AV was only "cake" for a short time (before cap rises) when DRK zerging worked. Then they patched that out, and it was hard again.

(Wall of Justice doesn't count either, that was patched and people got in trouble for it)

[MarkovChain]

Nobody did beat it because you needed 3-4 alliances to take it down, BUT it's artificial difficulty (like voidwatch anyway, and PW). There is very little content that is difficult for a given realistic number of people. Out of my mind, Einherjar was decent in difficulty even with 30+ people, mostly because there was no place for gimp DDs in tier III. Maxing out the number of coins per run in dynamis was also semi-difficult for the same reasons. And of course salvage ! Killing all NMs plus boss with 6 could only be done with well geared player and with a good organization.

[Alhanelem]

Difficulty is difficulty whether or not it comes from mechanics that feel forced/artificial.

I'd agree that salvage was one of the better challenges in the game (prior to cap increase), though it still allowed for many jobs to participate as long as the people playing them were competent and not stupid. PLD remained under-appriciated during that time though. It's good to see it being used in VW.

[MarkovChain]

PLD is no more useful in voidwatch. Everytime people think something is hard they think PLD. I've done the level 90 fights on mnk w/o trouble. SE gave us cheats with sherzo, earthen armor and perfect defense. Anyone is immune to damage with EA+sherzo, not just paladin so yeah. And I'd say PLD is less at its avantage because EA+sherzo is more efficient when you take more damage.

[Yinnyth]

PLD is no more useful in voidwatch. Everytime people think something is hard they think PLD. I've done the level 90 fights on mnk w/o trouble. SE gave us cheats with sherzo, earthen armor and perfect defense. Anyone is immune to damage with EA+sherzo, not just paladin so yeah. And I'd say PLD is less at its avantage because EA+sherzo is more efficient when you take more damage.

Please tell me that's hyperbole and you don't actually believe that scherzo/EA makes you immune to hundred fists, quadruple attack, and extreme DoT like Kaustra.

[Babekeke]

PLD is no more useful in voidwatch. Everytime people think something is hard they think PLD. I've done the level 90 fights on mnk w/o trouble. SE gave us cheats with sherzo, earthen armor and perfect defense. Anyone is immune to damage with EA+sherzo, not just paladin so yeah. And I'd say PLD is less at its avantage because EA+sherzo is more efficient when you take more damage.

This is my final straw for you, apparently your stupidity knows no bounds. Just ecasue you don't NEED a PLD in voidwatch, doesn't mean that it's 'no more useful in voidwatch'. Voidwatch requires a tank that can keep hate without dealing too much damage during the proccing stage. That, you incompetent fool, is paladin.

Finally time to add you to ignore list methinks.

[Tamoa]

This is my final straw for you, apparently your stupidity knows no bounds. Just ecasue you don't NEED a PLD in voidwatch, doesn't mean that it's 'no more useful in voidwatch'. Voidwatch requires a tank that can keep hate without dealing too much damage during the proccing stage. That, you incompetent fool, is paladin.

Finally time to add you to ignore list methinks.

It's also nice to have a pld to hold the adds.

[Monchat]

This is my final straw for you, apparently your stupidity knows no bounds. Just ecasue you don't NEED a PLD in voidwatch, doesn't mean that it's 'no more useful in voidwatch'. Voidwatch requires a tank that can keep hate without dealing too much damage during the proccing stage. That, you incompetent fool, is paladin.

Finally time to add you to ignore list methinks.

I think you are the ignorant one. A DD tank can stop dding while procing...

[Alhanelem]

A DD tank can stop ddingOne would sort of expect that if a "DD tank" stops DDing, they'll therefore stop tanking.

Yes, it's not that simple, but I still did a doubletake when I read that....

[Babekeke]

One would sort of expect that if a "DD tank" stops DDing, they'll therefore stop tanking.

Yes, it's not that simple, but I still did a doubletake when I read that....

Precisely. Especially if it's a DD job without hate tools like provoke (eg mnk/nin)

[MarkovChain]

If pld tank come /war monk too just saying.

[Winrie]

If pld tank come /war monk too just saying.

Bad english design.

[Zagen]

If pld tank come /war monk too just saying.

/WAR has VE hate tools not CE hate tools. When you're taking hits you lose CE meaning you want CE hate generating tools like Cure Spells, the VE is less important. If VE mattered MNK would have Boost spamming as a hate argument.

[Greatguardian]

(Major edit)

I feel like I might be jumping the gun here, so I'll back up a bit. I feel like you're personally addressing me because you see my character set with main job as PUP. I'm not asking that the jobs I want to play be able to win at everything. But every job should be useful for winning at *something* meaningful. Any job that isn't reasonably part of a sound winning strategy for one or more pieces of endgame content is just extra baggage that shouldn't be there in the first place.

I'm not judging the difficulty of an event based on whether or not PUP can win at it. I hope that's not what your thinking, and I also hope you're not subtly trying to pick on me here. Maybe you can clear this up for me.

No one's "Picking on you". I just pick up very specific trends that you seem to follow every time you get into a posting binge like this. When a job that you like, typically Pup or Smn or any "Unpopular job" which would encompass these, comes under fire from the community you will stand up and become as defensive as possible - to the point where you often contradict yourself or stumble over your own logic - in order to preserve your job's "pride".

All jobs do not need to be useful at everything. That is why we have Mog Houses and the ability to change jobs. All jobs are good at something. The difference lies in the artificial value of those strengths as dictated by the community. If Abyssea is more "popular" than some BCNMs, then Ninja will be more popular than Beastmaster or Summoner. That does not mean that Ninja is anywhere near as valuable as a Summoner in some BCNMs, but simply that no one particularly cares about BCNMs.

FFXI's dynamic job system was designed make changing jobs as much a tactical element of gameplay as how you actually fight the monster. You don't see people throwing 5 Warriors at Lorbulcrud and coming out on top, do you? The game is designed in such a way that teamwork and job setups are as essential to winning a battle as the battle itself. When the difficulty of monsters and battlefields is assessed, it is done so assuming that the players have arranged themselves in the most effective manner possible - because that is the smart thing to do.

If people want to add artificial difficulty by bringing Summoners and Dark Knights to Abyssea, they're welcome to it. But that doesn't make Abyssea hard. It just means that they are adding artificial difficulty to an otherwise easy event.

If making things more difficult makes it more fun for you, by all means do it. However, that does not make the content hard. It just means that you are willing to make it harder on yourself in order to have more fun. Fun is good. Keep it up. But you can't, at the same time, turn around and say that the content is not easy. It is easy. You just have to change jobs.

[Alhanelem]

That is why we have Mog Houses and the ability to change jobs. All jobs are good at something.You say this a lot yet you also frequently call it into question. And No- Every job SHOULD be useful for something. If it's not useful, then it shouldn't exist.



If making things more difficult makes it more fun for you, by all means do it. However, that does not make the content hard.No, of course it doesn't. But you still haven't answered the question of what DOES make content hard. I can only say for sure that something isn't as hard as it should be when it was clearly designed to be fought by a larger group but gets beaten by one or two players.


If people want to add artificial difficulty by bringing Summoners and Dark Knights to AbysseaBringing <insert job here> shouldn't be adding "artificial difficulty" as long as each key role of a well-formed group (e.g. tank, damage, support) is in some way filled by each person present. If bringing <insert job here> is a general liability (not a specific liability, e.g. bringing black mages to a fight against something that's magic immune), then that job is fundamentally flawed and needs to be fixed.


That does not mean that Ninja is anywhere near as valuable as a Summoner in some BCNMs, but simply that no one particularly cares about BCNMs.I see it as a problem if the only thing something is percieved to be "good" at is something that nobody wants to do.

The developers DO expect that most of us likely have more than one max level job. However, they do NOT expect everyone to have leveled every job when playing high level content. Different jobs can be used in different ways without making things more difficult than they have to be. You don't seem to recognize this. If you need melee damage, any one of several jobs can provide that. One or more of them might do a bit more damage than the others, but generally you're not making a fight "artificially difficult" by bringing something other than the current bandwagon DD. Any of several jobs can provide healing. Many times you can use any of these jobs without making the fight "artificially difficult." Any of a number of jobs are capable of "tanking." Many times you can use any of these jobs without making the fight "artificially difficult." I have 5 jobs to 95. Not all of them, but if you can't reasonably find some way to include me in a fight on any one of those five without making it more "artificially difficult," then I see a problem.

None of us uses different jobs from those in the strategy picked first by elitists with the specific intent of making content harder. The elitist community of today almost never uses any job other than MNK, WAR, WHM, BLM and BRD. That's only 25% of the classes in the game. This doesn't happen in any other MMO I've played. In WoW, DDO, FFXIV, LOTRO, MapleStory, and most other MMOs you don't see a couple jobs always being used and the rest just ignored.

Again: What DOES make something hard? What are the conditions for you? That you can't duo it on MNK and WHM? That it's impossible for the average player?

[Greatguardian]

1) Actually, when looking at a setup for NMs, I'm sure the developers do assume that all players have access to all jobs. Or, rather, that each player has diverse enough of a job spread - or diverse enough of a linkshell - in order to create any feasible job combination.

2) I already said all jobs are good at something. They are all useful for something. The difference is how much the community values that "something" that they are good at. Summoner can solo a hell of a lot better than Warrior, and can deal hate-free TP-less damage from a long range. Does the community care about other people solo'ing? Not really. Is hate-free TP-less damage from a long range important in Abyssea? Nah. In Voidwatch or future hard content? It's purdy nice, bro.

3) What makes content hard? The difficulty of content is assessed based on how difficult the content is to complete using the most effective jobs, most effective strategy, and the intended number of players.

Hard content is content that is difficult or challenging to complete effectively despite using the most effective jobs, most effective strategy, and the full intended allotment of players.

In this sense, most content in FFXI really isn't that hard. AV pre-PD was not "hard", it simply had absolutely ridiculous expectations (64+ players, etc). Any time where you use fewer people than the intended allotment for content, you are making it more difficult than it was intended to be.

Of course, I'm sure this will still boil down to how unreasonable expectation of player skills makes my assessment "unfair" to all of the game's casuals. I consider Voidwatch "harder" content, even though I don't have much trouble with it personally. I know a group of 18 casuals, despite a perfect setup, can still flail around miserably and die in Voidwatch. Abyssea, however, is absolutely nothing if not easy. Throw a group of 18 hamsters at monsters in Abyssea and they will die.

[Alhanelem]

First para: The latter part of it is more accurate. They dont expect all jobs from everyone, only that someone can team up with people who do have the jobs they are missing.

[Yygdrasil]

Let me preface this next comment with this: I am NOT trolling you.

That being said... Alhanelem: Although I consider you well versed in both lore and game mechanics related to FFXI... and I have certainly taken that into account... I have gotten a lot of laughs out of watching you talk down to everyone who posts anything that's even slightly wrong or misguided. It's amusing to see the agile lioness snatch the sick, frail antelope from the group and mercilessly lecture it while the others are forced to watch on in empathetic horror.

Because of this... I have nicknamed you... Captain Snatchems.

[Greatguardian]

Let me preface this next comment with this: I am NOT trolling you.

That being said... Alhanelem: Although I consider you well versed in both lore and game mechanics related to FFXI... and I have certainly taken that into account... I have gotten a lot of laughs out of watching you talk down to everyone who posts anything that's even slightly wrong or misguided. It's amusing to see the agile lioness snatch the sick, frail antelope from the group and mercilessly lecture it while the others are forced to watch on in empathetic horror.

Because of this... I have nicknamed you... Captain Snatchems.

I'm not sure I appreciate being called a frail, sick antelope. Of course, if you'd like the intimate that Abyssea is not easy content (Which is the primary point of contention here), I'd love to see your reasoning.

[MarkovChain]

/WAR has VE hate tools not CE hate tools. When you're taking hits you lose CE meaning you want CE hate generating tools like Cure Spells, the VE is less important. If VE mattered MNK would have Boost spamming as a hate argument.

And PLD has no CE tool so what's your point again?

[Babekeke]

If people want to add artificial difficulty by bringing Summoners and Dark Knights to Abyssea, they're welcome to it. But that doesn't make Abyssea hard. It just means that they are adding artificial difficulty to an otherwise easy event.

I agree with everything else in your post, however, I get the impression that you've never taken a SMN to abyssea.

#1 bringing a SMN to abyssea will usually mean that you're losing out on a proc job instead.

#2 If you're fighting a mob where the procs don't really matter, and you simply want to duo with a mage and a melee, you can make the fight considerably easier by making that mage a SMN.
A prime example I have of this is when I fought Awahondo (sp?) in uleg. A friend asked me to help him to get a caller's earring, as I have THF. He only has BST and mage jobs, so it was a toss up between whm and smn. I asked himk to SMN as it would speed up the kills. With the usual atmas of MM and some MAB, the avatar actually did more damage than my THF (mob hits hard and fast, and has hundred fists, so I went geared and atma'd for evasion, not DD).

The mob might have died just as fast if I went geared/atma'd for DD and he went on whm, but taking a SMN certainly did NOT make it any harder.

Another example: I'd love to see a mnk & whm strategy for Cuelebre. A SMN can solo it, many SMN can kill it faster. melee DDs do little for it.

I'm sure there are many other examples out there, but certainly adding a job that can do huge spike damage without dealing TP or taking hate, will never make content harder.

Sorry.

[Greatguardian]

I agree with everything else in your post, however, I get the impression that you've never taken a SMN to abyssea.

#1 bringing a SMN to abyssea will usually mean that you're losing out on a proc job instead.

#2 If you're fighting a mob where the procs don't really matter, and you simply want to duo with a mage and a melee, you can make the fight considerably easier by making that mage a SMN.
A prime example I have of this is when I fought Awahondo (sp?) in uleg. A friend asked me to help him to get a caller's earring, as I have THF. He only has BST and mage jobs, so it was a toss up between whm and smn. I asked himk to SMN as it would speed up the kills. With the usual atmas of MM and some MAB, the avatar actually did more damage than my THF (mob hits hard and fast, and has hundred fists, so I went geared and atma'd for evasion, not DD).

The mob might have died just as fast if I went geared/atma'd for DD and he went on whm, but taking a SMN certainly did NOT make it any harder.

Another example: I'd love to see a mnk & whm strategy for Cuelebre. A SMN can solo it, many SMN can kill it faster. melee DDs do little for it.

I'm sure there are many other examples out there, but certainly adding a job that can do huge spike damage without dealing TP or taking hate, will never make content harder.

Sorry.

Saying that because you can take WAR+NIN+WHM+BLM+BLU+MNK and make it WAR+NIN+WHM+BLM+BLU+MNK+SMN and cover all procs while killing everything in Abyssea, Summoner is obviously good in Abyssea is fallacious.

The point isn't that any additional fluff on top of a solid setup won't hurt it much, but rather than if you chose to try to duo Pantokrator on Thf+Smn then you're probably screwed. If you tried to build an Almace on Smn+Pup, you'll probably be a-hurtin' for those red procs.

I also said about a half dozen times in this thread alone that Summoner is a solid soloist, so there's no reason not to use it on Cuelebre. The point is not that Mnk+Whm can do err'thang, but that all jobs already have their own niche and trying to throw Monks at Cuelebre and Summoners at Pantokrator is stupid and makes things a lot harder than they really should be.

[Babekeke]

The point isn't that any additional fluff on top of a solid setup won't hurt it much, but rather than if you chose to try to duo Pantokrator on Thf+Smn then you're probably screwed. If you tried to build an Almace on Smn+Pup, you'll probably be a-hurtin' for those red procs.

OK, that makes more sense than your original statement of 'bringing a smn to abyssea makes things artificially harder'

[Minikom]

So I am doing Voidwatch and basically we have to stop because our only Paladin out of the 18 people we have has to go. Seriously why design a game where there is only one real tank when you have 20 other jobs to choose from. The thing I like about Abyssea is it eliminated a need for from one tank only. Can choose from multiple jobs in Abyssea(PLD, THF, MNK, NIN, WAR, hell just about any melee job if you got the right mages healing) Now he we are with voidwatch which basically requires a PLD tank, a job hardly anyone plays anymore. Great job SE. I love the new content.... (sarcasm in case the developers don't get my drift.)


I have seen War/sam, Drk/sam nin/war Nin/drk and sam/war tank on voidwatchs.

[Eurell]

And PLD has no CE tool so what's your point again?

PLDs don't have Flash or cures?

[Alhanelem]

Let me preface this next comment with this: I am NOT trolling you.

That being said... Alhanelem: Although I consider you well versed in both lore and game mechanics related to FFXI... and I have certainly taken that into account... I have gotten a lot of laughs out of watching you talk down to everyone who posts anything that's even slightly wrong or misguided. It's amusing to see the agile lioness snatch the sick, frail antelope from the group and mercilessly lecture it while the others are forced to watch on in empathetic horror.

Because of this... I have nicknamed you... Captain Snatchems.

I don't take offense. :p But I find your analogies ... a little disturbing.

That being said, I don't mean to be "talking down to people." It's a great challenge for me to express what I'm thinking in the most appropriate way. This is the main reason I'm so notorious for post editing. I write something, realize that that wasn't the best way to say it or it doesn't compltely reflect my thoughts, so I edit it, decide that wasn't right either, so I edit again...

It does take considerable patience to have a dialog with me, I don't deny that at all. I'd just like to ask for that patience. :)


I'm not sure I appreciate being called a frail, sick antelope. Of course, if you'd like the intimate that Abyssea is not easy content (Which is the primary point of contention here), I'd love to see your reasoning.
I think to apply one word to describe the difficulty of abyssea as a whole doesn't work. Much of it is quite easy, designed to be interesting to the run of the mill player but not posing much of a challenge to long-time players. Some parts of it are a bit more difficult and require a player to at least have a firm grasp of their jobs and what a monster does before engaging it. That's basically what I think. You also have to consider all the work that players need to do to reduce the difficulty, as the main reason abyssea is so easy is because there is so much help available to take a fight that might otherwise be challenging and nerf it into oblivion (e.g. atmas, temp items, cruor buffs, etc). The first few times you're in abyssea, you don't have all of those things yet.

So to sum it up, most parts of abyssea are rather easy, and then some parts are at least a minor challenge to typical players. It's not a static difficulty that never changes for anyone. Some parts are harder than others.

(As an aside, I use SMN in abyssea all the time. Yes, I don't have a ton of procs while using it, but I can solo many of the NMs I need right now with great ease, so it suits my purposes just fine.)

[noodles355]

And PLD has no CE tool so what's your point again?Every action generates CE. DD's CE generating tool is consistant damage. If they are not DDing, they are getting hit and losing CE. Paladin has cures to generate consistant CE and can keep generating CE without DDing whereas the DD tank is only losing CE if he stops DDing.

[Yinnyth]

PLDs don't have Flash or cures?

Flash is only 180 CE- you lose that pretty quickly when taking blows to the face. Cure IV, however, is fantastic for CE, provided you're curing for the full amount... Well, ok, mostly VE. Still, there's almost no sources of good CE anywhere.

Charm is ok... 320 CE every 15 seconds. BRD is a little better provided you don't have anything better to do than spamming songs... and have some fastcast gear maybe. Honestly, CE is hard like crazy to intentionally build.

[Darriken]

PLD is amazing for Voidwatch. Amazing for holding the adds while the DDs tank/damage/proc the NM

[Eurell]

Flash is only 180 CE- you lose that pretty quickly when taking blows to the face. Cure IV, however, is fantastic for CE, provided you're curing for the full amount... Well, ok, mostly VE. Still, there's almost no sources of good CE anywhere.

Charm is ok... 320 CE every 15 seconds. BRD is a little better provided you don't have anything better to do than spamming songs... and have some fastcast gear maybe. Honestly, CE is hard like crazy to intentionally build.

I know people forgot about them when abyssea came out, but PLDs can still use cure-cheat macros for easy easy hate. Any PLD should also easily be able to get at least +50ish enmity or so on those cures and flashes that should be coming out non stop. And with all the temp items available in Voidwatch, it's basically unlimited MP while you're building hate.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Pld having to build hate inside Abyssea, oxymoron alert.

[Eurell]

Pld having to build hate inside Abyssea, oxymoron alert.

Which is why we're talking about Voidwatch?

[Neisan_Quetz]

Then why did you mention Abyssea?

[Eurell]

Because that's when people forgot about them, like I said. Cure-cheat macros haven't been used in like 2 years, so obviously some people forgot how useful they are for building CE on PLD, especially in voidwatch where you don't want to do much damage to the mob.


Ah, just reread my post, and I put temp items in abyssea, when I meant voidwatch. My mistake, editting!

[MarkovChain]

Cure cheat macro ? It is like people are using their same dumb old strategies again. Conidering how much hate a single melee damage generate I will say that cure cheat macro is useless on absolutely everything. Isn't a single trick attack worth one hundred cure cheats anymore. Goddamit@ trying to hard to justify pld.

[Yinnyth]

A 1000 damage TA WS against a level 95 enemy is worth 1250CE and 3750VE (note: most VW targets are a higher level than 95 so generated enmity is actually lower than this). A 400HP cure IV on a level 95 target is worth 238CE, and 1432VE modified by any enmity gear the PLD is wearing. The recast time on cure IV is 8 seconds, though the pld will most likely have at least haste on him, so let's say it's a 6 second recast. That means in the 60 seconds it takes for TA to recharge, he could cure cheat 2380CE and cap out VE, compared to 1250CE and 3750VE for a 1000 damage TA WS. So no, a "single trick attack" is not worth "one hundred cure cheats".

Furthermore, if you feel melees generate too much hate in any situation for a PLD to hold hate, then the only strategy you must approve of is: melees go crazy, we'll try to keep you alive. Which worked great in most of Abyssea, but we're finally moving on from that. Enmity isn't the only issue a tank has to worry about, taking damage is another large issue, and nothing takes damage quite like a PLD.

I don't have to try "to hard" to justify PLD. It justifies itself (now that we're out of abyssea and salvage, anyways). You, however, will never change your mind. That's just the kind of guy you are.

[MarkovChain]

No PLD is jumb and you just proved it. You theory is a giant facepalm. 238 CE is nothing and it's on 8 second recast. A single melee hit depletes all this in 1 second so go back to doing dumb maths about enmity generation elsewhere. It's always best to melee to get hate and your cure cheat won't get you anywhere when absolutely all the voidwatch perma debuff you wether it is slow, silence, paralyze, on top of heavy damage. A trick attack (or several) every 30 seconds beats the crap out of absolutely anything a PLD can do. So what ? Are you really satified 238 CE that you have to spam every 8 seconds ? are you serious lol ? You are just an old scholl PLD fanboy. I bet you tanked HnMs with rdms lol. This just in, a single monk's melee rounds is worth more than provoke.

[Winrie]

No PLD is jumb and you just proved it. You theory is a giant facepalm. 238 CE is nothing and it's on 8 second recast. A single melee hit depletes all this in 1 second so go back to doing dumb maths about enmity generation elsewhere. It's always best to melee to get hate and your cure cheat won't get you anywhere when absolutely all the voidwatch perma debuff you wether it is slow, silence, paralyze, on top of heavy damage. A trick attack (or several) every 30 seconds beats the crap out of absolutely anything a PLD can do. So what ? Are you really satified 238 CE that you have to spam every 8 seconds ? are you serious lol ? You are just an old scholl PLD fanboy. I bet you tanked HnMs with rdms lol. This just in, a single monk's melee rounds is worth more than provoke.

Your english is a giant facepalm dude, if youre going to rant like a nutter at least make it legible you muppet.

[Neisan_Quetz]

He's French, english not first language etc. Not that I'm agreeing with him but j/s that's probably why it's bad.

Even then I haven't seen a prd use a curecheat macro in VW, even with an occaisonally fails 2-4 times sword. He was using Ochain but still

[Yinnyth]

No PLD is jumb and you just proved it. You theory is a giant facepalm. 238 CE is nothing and it's on 8 second recast. A single melee hit depletes all this in 1 second so go back to doing dumb maths about enmity generation elsewhere. It's always best to melee to get hate and your cure cheat won't get you anywhere when absolutely all the voidwatch perma debuff you wether it is slow, silence, paralyze, on top of heavy damage. A trick attack (or several) every 30 seconds beats the crap out of absolutely anything a PLD can do. So what ? Are you really satified 238 CE that you have to spam every 8 seconds ? are you serious lol ? You are just an old scholl PLD fanboy. I bet you tanked HnMs with rdms lol. This just in, a single monk's melee rounds is worth more than provoke.

I believe I've found the pattern to your arguments:
1. Dismiss any logic or math which argues a point by exaggerating reality. (eg. Computers don't work in binary, lol you newb. If all they understood was 1s and 0s, how do we get all these letters on our computers?)

2. Provide your own supporting "logic". (eg. Trick attack getting used several times every 30 seconds)

3. Call anyone who disagrees with you a "__________ fanboy". (eg. You are just an old school PLD fanboy)


Even if not for the fact that you're dismissing logically presented arguments with nothing more than fallacious assumptions, your credibility is less than anyone who currently does the events you pretend to know anything about because:


Lol. Btw nobody cares, voidwatch has been a fail system from start. The gear that comes from it sucks and the only reason for it to exist is metal plates. And if you are serious about getting an empy you need to go away from VW because it's much better to farm clink clink and buy from bazars.

Incoming NMs with more retarded moves, even less accessible, with more junk drops and more metal plates for level 99. *You can have this*. I'm getting 50 plates per day from selling currency.

Unless you're a hypocrite, you don't actually do VW.

[Eurell]

He's already suggested MNKs should /war for hate while they don't DD while people try to proc. Everything he posts is a giant contradictiod.

[cidbahamut]

It's Pchan...

[TybudX]

Somebody: Abyssea is hard.
GG: It's not hard if you use a good strategy. 98% of Abyssea can be done DD + WHM.
Anal: But I can solo most NMs on SMN!
GG: That's the same thing. It's easy on DD + WHM, it's easy on SMN solo.
Someotherguy: Anal just schooled you loser, SMN ftwlol
Anal: But I can solo most NMs on SMN!
GG: You already said that. What are you trying to argue?
Anal: But I can solo most NMs on SMN!
GG: You have no idea what this is even about. We have been talking about Apples and Oranges, and you are arguing that pie is good.
Anal: But I can solo most NMs on SMN!

[Yinnyth]

Ohcrap, that dude is Pchan? Ohhhhhh... now I understand.

[Babekeke]

Ohcrap, that dude is Pchan? Ohhhhhh... now I understand.

Yep. When you click on his name (to add him to your ignorelist) he lists all of his chars on his profile page^^

[Rearden]

lol Captain Snatchems.

Haven't had the urge to throw up over illogical fawning in a long time, thanks.

[Seiowan]

You know, correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't Ninja pretty much the ONLY viable tank for a lot of fights anyway? NMs which, for example, remember how much damage you've dealt to them and them return it back to you. A non-ninja tank will eat somewhere in the region of 4-6k damage or even higher, while Ninja simply blinks it away with Migawari. How can anyone really complain about the fact that Paladin, which is designed purely to be a tank, is the one class good at tanking for a particular event?

Honestly, it's like complaining that Black Mage is the only job that gets Comet, or that only BST can jugs.

Personally, I'm just glad Paladin has at least one event where they can still hog the spotlight. They've been undervalued for a long time, largely because of blink-tanking by Ninjas and deserve a lot more credit than they've been given up until now. Every job needs a chance to shine, and Paladin should be no exception.

[Alhanelem]

NIN isn't that big anymore... at least, not for the people I run into these days. Usually it's MNK or WAR. Whoever does the most damage tanks.

[noodles355]

It's Pchan...
Seriously, it's pchan. Just ignore the idiot and take joy in the fact that in 10 hours time, the All Blacks will obliterate and embarrass his joke of a country.