Final Fantasy XI 2.0

[Byrth]

This is probably not a question that will be answerable by anyone who reads it, but I'm just throwing it out there because it's on my mind after looking at the announcement of an FFXIV re-release, dubbed FFXIV 2.0. (http://wdl.square-enix.com/ffxiv/download/en/FFXIV_2.0_Outline_EN.pdf)

Why does SE choose to invest (what appears to be) a substantial amount of capital and manpower in a game that was received by the international community as an unqualified failure?

The scale of the changes detailed in that slideshow are so large that they would be comparable to re-releasing FFXI with better graphics and another (small-ish) expansion. You'd drop a lot of the infrastructure building they talk about, probably increase the graphical re-works required due to having more character models, increase some backbone code programming, and you'd have approximately the same amount of work.

Why in the world would you choose to invest in a title that's synonymous with failure instead of one that has nostalgia value for many MMO players? If you're trying to bring people back to the brand, this is not how to do it.

[Rearden]

This is a huge gamble for a company that has not released a quality game in many years. If this fails, which, a lot of bets are being hedged on a large PS3 subscriber base, then what will be done? The money to fund FFXIV is obviously coming from revenue generated by FFXI. Many of us have no interest in giving FFXIV another shot.

The amount of money and time it would take to make this a better and revamped game would be far less. If effort was truly visible to players that people are actually working on making this game (FFXI) better, I'm fairly certain there would be a renewed interest among many players. As it is, the general feeling is that FFXI does not have many years left and as such people are taking that into account when they ask themselves "Should I play" or "Should I keep playing".

There are a lot of new games coming out, and they will continue to draw players from FFXI to them unless FFXI shows some sign of a future.

That future for many of us is unequivocally not FFXIV.

[Nianny]

I don't think they'd ever just give up on FFXIV. Also, what I think it could be a bad move is how they're starting to charge for it still this year when 2.0 is scheluded for end of 2012, especially with some expected MMOs coming out soon.

Some might stick around and start paying for it when it starts, but I'd guess many if not most will go for the waiting route to not take any risks.

[Huckster]

Already being discussed here: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/16083-FFXI-Outline-and-Future

[Alhanelem]

Why does SE choose to invest (what appears to be) a substantial amount of capital and manpower in a game that was received by the international community as an unqualified failure?Because it would be a huge embarassment to them if they allowed their flagship brand to be tarnished so heavily. That's why they're determined to fix it instead of throw it away. and it's something that can be done, if they play their cards right. Relaunches are not unprecedented.

The very fact that they haven't given up on it should be seen as a symbol of their dedication to producing a good product. And they need more good products, considering the company's current state.

Quite simply, FFXIV has far fewer technical constraints on it than FFXI, and they likely deemed it impractical to rebuild an 8 year old game versus one in its infancy.

[svengalis]

Only Sqaure Enix knows the answer to your questions. They will probably spend more money on rebuilding that game then they did with version one and it will not work. The game has been damaged. First impressions are everything. They have failed and should just move on. If there is a time they should listen to us it is now concerning FF XIV and XI.

[svengalis]

Because it would be a huge embarassment to them if they allowed their flagship brand to be tarnished so heavily. That's why they're determined to fix it instead of throw it away. and it's something that can be done, if they play their cards right. Relaunches are not unprecedented.

The very fact that they haven't given up on it should be seen as a symbol of their dedication to producing a good product. And they need more good products, considering the company's current state.

Quite simply, FFXIV has far fewer technical constraints on it than FFXI, and they likely deemed it impractical to rebuild an 8 year old game versus one in its infancy.

Has been tried before with Star Wars galaxies and looked how that turned out. That should have been a lesson to everyone to learn from.

[Alhanelem]

First impressions are everything. They have failed and should just move on. No, they aren't and no they shouldn't.

They've already done half the work they need to get to their goal, to abandon it now would be even more of a colossal waste than if they never made the attempt in the first place.

There are MULTIPLE other games out there that didn't launch great and later reinvented themselves and gained new players. It can and has been done. And in this case, enough time will have passed that marketing the game a second time can work.

One thing I can tell you, because I know you and the other people hating on FFXIV are thinking the same thing: Cancelling the project and cutting their losses doesn't suddenly mean a better chance for a revamped FFXI. They would most likely devote the freed resources to a new or other project.

[Vold]

I think they won't have any problem getting the playerbase they have now to pay up. They've stuck with it this far for free, but not because it's free. Some have, sure. But FFXIV is all they've got. So really it's just smart to start charging them. I didn't say it was wise... just smart. A crappy game isn't worth playing. They clearly consider the game good enough to play. I see some big talkers on those forums about not paying up but just wait, they will.




The man power invested into a FFXI reboot to push it again to all those people that always wanted to play it but could never stomach the game as it was many years ago would be the very best business decision to make right now. Right now not a single one of them realize the changes this game has endured. Hundreds of thousands of potential customers who quit because of the stupid grind back in the day. Many of them I'll bet anything were among those who bought a copy of FFXIV at launch. They could take advantage of that but no, let's throw more millions away on 14 and just sit back and milk 11 for all it's worth til no one is left playing it. I'm sure ex FFXI gamers will jump on board 14 no problem. Yeah.

10 years from now we're going to be reading interviews where SE says something along these lines: "In retrospect we made the wrong calls to ensure the continued success of FFXI. We failed our customers, but with Final Fantasy 16 Online things will be different!" That's the future if they continue to treat FFXI as a trust fund.

Look, I don't care if FFXI has lost half of it's player base in the past several years. Do what it takes to win them back or kiss your free millions every month goodbye. It's that simple. 14 is a hard lesson learned. Let it go. I'm sick and tired of my money not being used to progress FFXI at a faster than turtles pace while 30,000 players over at 14 playing for free enjoy being treated like frickin kings.

[Alhanelem]

14 is a hard lesson learned.You're right, they did learn a lesson. That's why they're doing what they're doing. They acknowledged how they F'ed up, and rather than throw in the towel, they want people to see that they're determined to make a good game, even if people like you have already made up your minds.

The game has already come a long way since the dev team switch, and it is heading in a good direction.


Has been tried before with Star Wars galaxies and looked how that turned out.Has also been tried with other games with a good measure of success. I also wouldn't consider SWG's reinventing a faliure. However, they developed their new game to replace the old game (as they cancelled SWG to make way for TOR). This would have been disasterous for SE, because if they pulled FFXI when they launched FFXIV, that would have been 10x the hellstorm than if they didn't.

Most of the people who are still railing it haven't even taken the time to notice how XIV has significantly improved since its launch. The only disappointing thing to me is it's going to take another year for them to reach their goal of where they want the game to be.

[Vold]

No, they aren't and no they shouldn't.

They've already done half the work they need to get to their goal, to abandon it now would be even more of a colossal waste than if they never made the attempt in the first place.

There are MULTIPLE other games out there that didn't launch great and later reinvented themselves and gained new players. It can and has been done. And in this case, enough time will have passed that marketing the game a second time can work.Just stop. Marketing FFXI-2 would bring in more dollars than 14 can ever hope to achieve. Fail is fail. Your logic = theirs and it FAILED. It was a better idea to rework 11 than do 14. Time to move on.

[svengalis]

No, they aren't and no they shouldn't.

They've already done half the work they need to get to their goal, to abandon it now would be even more of a colossal waste than if they never made the attempt in the first place.

There are MULTIPLE other games out there that didn't launch great and later reinvented themselves and gained new players. It can and has been done. And in this case, enough time will have passed that marketing the game a second time can work.

One thing I can tell you, because I know you and the other people hating on FFXIV are thinking the same thing: Cancelling the project and cutting their losses doesn't suddenly mean a better chance for a revamped FFXI. They would most likely devote the freed resources to a new or other project.

Just out of curiosity what games are you talking about? I don't recally any big online MMOs (The Matrix online, Warhammer, Conan, The lord of the rings, Star wars galaxy) just some off the top of my head, having bad launches then turning it around after launch.

[Alhanelem]

Marketing FFXI-2They can't market a game they aren't making. Cancelling FFXIV wouldn't suddenly mean an FFXI 2.0 would be in the pipeline.

LOTRO and DDO went to a F2P model and they did a re-launch for both games, promoting them again and in both cases, the playerbases of the games improved. DDO had closed some servers before the relaunch- now it has more servers than it ever did before then, and on top of going free to play it was upgraded with DirectX10/11 support along with many graphical improvements, a ton of new content, a new UI, and more. It's still not the size of WoW of course, but I don't think any other MMO ever will be. The move to DDO Unlimited was a huge success for Turbine.

[Greatguardian]

Just out of curiosity what games are you talking about? I don't recally any big online MMOs (The Matrix online, Warhammer, Conan, The lord of the rings, Star wars galaxy) just some off the top of my head, having bad launches then turning it around after launch.

I'd like this question answered as well. I can't think of a single MMO in the industry that has successfully recovered from a launch as horrible as FF14's.

[svengalis]

You're right, they did learn a lesson. That's why they're doing what they're doing. They acknowledged how they F'ed up, and rather than throw in the towel, they want people to see that they're determined to make a good game, even if people like you have already made up your minds.

The game has already come a long way since the dev team switch, and it is heading in a good direction.

Has also been tried with other games with a good measure of success. I also wouldn't consider SWG's reinventing a faliure. However, they developed their new game to replace the old game (as they cancelled SWG to make way for TOR). This would have been disasterous for SE, because if they pulled FFXI when they launched FFXIV, that would have been 10x the hellstorm than if they didn't.

Most of the people who are still railing it haven't even taken the time to notice how XIV has significantly improved since its launch. The only disappointing thing to me is it's going to take another year for them to reach their goal of where they want the game to be.

Star Wars Galaxy was made by Sony and was a complete failure. The revamp cost them even more subscribers then they started with. TOR is made by Bioware and from what I played(It's not even that good LOL) totally off topic I know but seriously what are you talking about.

[Alhanelem]

SWG can't be considered that big of a faliure when it lasted as long as it did. DDO was meh when it came out (not a critical faliure but not particularly good either). and DDO Unlimited was a significant success and step up.


It was a better idea to rework 11 than do 14.No, reworking an 8 year old game would not have gained them lots of new players. Spending a lot of time and money to update a really old product with no likelyhood of return on the investment is not a good idea.

[svengalis]

I'd like this question answered as well. I can't think of a single MMO in the industry that has successfully recovered from a launch as horrible as FF14's.

What's crazy is FF XIV is one of the worst of the bunch I hate to rag on the game but I wanted it to be good. I have the collector's edition and even played the beta and was optimistic when everyone was calling it bad. Hasn't been an MMO released this bad since The Matrix Online.

[Alhanelem]

What's crazy is FF XIV is one of the worst of the bunch I hate to rag on the game but I wanted it to be good.Sorry, you were wrong at the game's launch and you're much more wrong now. Even when it came out, there were worse MMOs out there, FFXIV only got the attention and hate that it did because it was Final Fantasy, not some unknown name/concept.

The game has vastly improved in the year since its launch, and I actually find it fun to play now, even though they're far from done with their reinvention work.

Of course, it's no suprise that you'll find nothing but haters on the subject of FFXIV on the FFXI forum.

(This does not mean I'm upset or unhappy about FFXI, as i'm not, I'm still subscribed, still playing, and still enjoying. however, after all these years, I'm at the point where I have to consider looking in another direction as the limitations on FFXI are preventing it from changing and growing much more.)


I'm sick and tired of my money not being used to progress FFXIMoney isn't being used on FFXI because there isn't much that money can do to enhance it other than produce the next patch faster. They can't make sweeping changes to the game without upsetting a huge chunk of their users (the players playing on consoles, both PS2 and xbox 360- it would have to drop BOTH of them to really free the game from its shackles).

[Rearden]

FFXIV held my interest for 1 week and I tried it out in March 2011. That's after about half of the improvements took place.

Crap game is crap.

[Alhanelem]

FFXIV held my interest for 1 week and I tried it out in March 2011. That's after about half of the improvements took place.

Crap game is crap.Actually, that amounts to about 1/10th of the improvements. The last two patches are bigger in size than all of the patches that came before it. But the whole reason tehy're making this move to "FFXIV 2.0" is because, by their own admission, their server system design (created by the original dev team) was fundamentally flawed and prevented them from making some of the improvements they wanted to make. It has gotten better and will continue to get better.

[Leonlionheart]

I think anyone arguing that revamping this game, which was never hugely successful in the first place, is just biased because they've sunk so much money/time into this thing.

Revamping FFXIV, which still has a chance and is not limited by a rather ... complete trash game engine is the better business choice.

Don't expect miracles, but expect more than you ever could with the limited abilities of FFXI's core

[Neisan_Quetz]

FFXI wasn't successful...?

[Alhanelem]

That's the right idea (@ Lionheart). The problem with investing the kind of money they've already invested in FFXIV is simply that they can't do a whole lot. The game's engine is proprietary, built for the ps2 (And the PC client to this day has some technical issues brought by incompatibilities with ps2 systems) and further butcherdly ported to the xbox version which has its own problems and some of the same limitations as the PS2.

To really do anything more than minor content updates to FFXI, they would have to drop support BOTH consoles. The game has a lot of players on consoles (mostly xbox now) and thus they would lose a lot of customers and probably not gain many new ones.


FFXI wasn't successful...? Who says it wasn't successful? Doesn't mean that an engine overhaul and drop of console versions would make it more successful. It's an old game and it has been tried by many- many more than FFXIV and many more than a lot of MMOs. The potential new audience it could reach is not that large in my eyes.

[svengalis]

Sorry, you were wrong at the game's launch and you're much more wrong now. Even when it came out, there were worse MMOs out there, FFXIV only got the attention and hate that it did because it was Final Fantasy, not some unknown name/concept.

The game has vastly improved in the year since its launch, and I actually find it fun to play now, even though they're far from done with their reinvention work.

Of course, it's no suprise that you'll find nothing but haters on the subject of FFXIV on the FFXI forum.

(This does not mean I'm upset or unhappy about FFXI, as i'm not, I'm still subscribed, still playing, and still enjoying. however, after all these years, I'm at the point where I have to consider looking in another direction as the limitations on FFXI are preventing it from changing and growing much more.)

Money isn't being used on FFXI because there isn't much that money can do to enhance it other than produce the next patch faster. They can't make sweeping changes to the game without upsetting a huge chunk of their users (the players playing on consoles, both PS2 and xbox 360- it would have to drop BOTH of them to really free the game from its shackles).

I saw this on the first page in the FF XIV forums. http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/27583-Pay-for-what

They could do what they are doing for XIV and do it to XI instead, yeah they might have to drop PS2 support but that is it. If FF XIV can run on PS3 then a revamped XI could run on Xbox 360.

[Leonlionheart]

FFXI wasn't successful...?

L2Read

"not hugely successful" =/= not successful

it also had a rather bad release

[svengalis]

SWG can't be considered that big of a faliure when it lasted as long as it did. DDO was meh when it came out (not a critical faliure but not particularly good either). and DDO Unlimited was a significant success and step up.

No, reworking an 8 year old game would not have gained them lots of new players. Spending a lot of time and money to update a really old product with no likelyhood of return on the investment is not a good idea.

Revamping a successful game vs revamping a failed one hmmm which would I choose?

[Leonlionheart]

Revamping a successful game vs revamping a failed one hmmm which would I choose?

more along the lines of

revamping a xmillion dollar investment that hasn't had any pay back whatsoever, but has potential

vs

revamping an old investment that has payed for itself and has been dying at a steady rate for years and has a "technological cap" that won't allow furthering it greatly without a complete rewrite of the game engine

[svengalis]

I think anyone arguing that revamping this game, which was never hugely successful in the first place, is just biased because they've sunk so much money/time into this thing.

Revamping FFXIV, which still has a chance and is not limited by a rather ... complete trash game engine is the better business choice.

Don't expect miracles, but expect more than you ever could with the limited abilities of FFXI's core

Are you serious? FF XI at one time had 500k subscribers. XIV I think has 30k according to someone else. The game is like a ghost town when I log on. The game got industry wide bad reviews. Most people are not going to think twice when looking at this game because of how it was first launched.

[Leonlionheart]

Are you serious? FF XI at one time had 500k subscribers. XIV I think has 30k according to someone else. The game is like a ghost town when I log on. The game got industry wide bad reviews. Most people are not going to think twice when looking at this game because of how it was first launched.

Rift's launch month had 1million subscribers.

FFXI also got very poor reviews

[Neisan_Quetz]

So your giant list of MMOs that were a huge success over FFXI is...

[svengalis]

L2Read

"not hugely successful" =/= not successful

it also had a rather bad release

But when MMOs were new to market and having 500k paying subscribers is very successful for an MMO.

[svengalis]

Rift's launch month had 1million subscribers.

FFXI also got very poor reviews

1 million paying subscribers? Again FF XI when it launched in Japan 9 years ago was a new thing. MMOs had not penetrated the market like they do today. When FF XI hit stateside it got good reviews as the game got better and had released its first exspansion. It came a long way in that year and 6 months after it launched in japan.

[Leonlionheart]

reviews and success aside

ps2 limitations will forever fuck this game

[Alhanelem]

They could do what they are doing for XIV and do it to XI instead, It would not have anywhere near the same effect for a dated, well known, 8+ year old game that it would have for a <1 year old game that most people passed up and ignored because of a bad launch.

You're just crazy if you think investing the amount of money they've invested in XIV to upgrade FFXI would generate a good return on the investment. There's no way it could work short of calling it something other than Final Fantasy XI and having everything "coincidentally" be exactly the same but prettier looking.


It came a long way in that yearFFXIV has come a long way in a year too. That being said, the finickier gamers of today aren't taking notice and just blasting it on the basis of the weak launch, as if there's no way it could have improved in this time.

[Neisan_Quetz]

The difference being XI came a long way and was successful. 14 improved... and only 30k people are playing it.

For free.

It's going to take an entire overhaul just for XIV to have any hope of staying afloat.

[Swords]

Eh, subscriber numbers arn't exactly the best thing to use for an argument when it comes to deciding which MMO's are hits or not. For starters most every MMO has a high subscriber rate at launch, not because the games any good but because people just want to check it out. Second, some people quit playing yet still pay for their account, because they don't want to lose their character in case they decide to come back one day. Third you also have to consider how many of those subscribers are mules, craft/gatering bots, RMT, etc. Each of these inflate the subscriber rate exponentially, which is why I always laugh when I see "Over 6 million subscribers" on copies of WoW.

Anyways, if people want to talk on the subject of cutting their losses I'd love to see what people have to say about why Sony didn't just cut their losses when the PS3 bombed harder than FFXIV at launch. I mean they've revised the system like 8 times in the last 5 years dumbing it down to make it more affordable, and now they're just starting to make profit on it.

[Neisan_Quetz]

EDIT: post responding to edited

Of course, bringing up 'mules, craft/gathering bots, RMT, etc.' doesn't help 14's case any bit either

PS3 was a case of Sony not realizing people actually do like playing with each other imo, hence the Wii which has the weakest system in terms of performance was the most purchased next gen console.

[Alhanelem]

Even if it wasn't FFXIV, i'd rather them have dropped the development cost of the game on some other new title, than a overaul to FFXI. From a business standpoint a new product makes way more sense.

[Yugl]

Psychological reason: When you make grand investments into projects and they don't pay off, you're less likely to abandon them than if you invested less.

Business reason: SE had planned this from the beginning. They are not psychic; they cannot tell what players want, generically, from an MMO (Generically does not mean "Hey, give me WAR buffs!"). They allowed players, without monthly fees, to play the game and find flaws with the system. SE acted accordingly. The whole process is to release half a product and then gradually build the rest of the product up with the help of the player base. It's similar to hiring a group of players to develop the game alongside the development team, but is cheaper and avoids psychological biases that might emerge had the players been paid. Consequently, once SE feels they have adequately understood what their game needs, they are able to begin charging players (Build revenue) with the promise of enhanced gameplay (Prevents people from leaving).

[Runespider]

Square aren't working on these games in terms of strict business sense, it's all about saving face. FFXIV failed and they can't accept it, FFXI is going fine..thats why they are throwing money at a cripple of a game.

If it fails again which it probably will, they will be a complete laughing stock and I'm not sure how they will take that, maybe throw even more money at it and just keep on failing (sometimes you gotta know when to throw in the towel). Regardless FFXI is going to lose out in all this from the massive under-investment that is clearly seen.

[noodles355]

Square aren't working on these games in terms of strict business sense, it's all about saving face. In this instance, these two things probaly go hand in hand. Having your flagship title be completely canceled would have a large negative impact on the company's image. Successfully recovering FFXIV would probably increase their stock by a good amount.

[Byrth]

I guess some people missed page 4, where they say they're using a new graphics engine, redesigning the maps, reworking the game's architecture, changing the UI, AND adding content. FFXI would only have needed the first, third, and last to be re-release worthy.

Basically, re-releasing either game is a shitton of work. They picked the wrong one from a business sense. Re-releasing FFXI v2.0, where all the old kings bullshit is gone and new gear is important, but there are still old things around if you want to do them, would have gotten a huge boost from nostalgic gamers. Toss some hot graphics on the top, swap PS2 for PS3, and you could have had a lot of serious players again. Their decision to do it for FFXIV (which really has no potential for success) is, in a word, dumb. The game may have some appeal in Japan, as I don't know what its competition looks like, but it has no chance of success in international markets unless they promote the hell out of it. SE has always been terrible at promotion abroad, and any promotion they do for this is going to have the "lolFF14" scepter lurking in the background anyway.

[svengalis]

L2Read

"not hugely successful" =/= not successful

it also had a rather bad release

@ Alhanelem also. So you guys are telling me it is better to re release a failed game vs re releasing a successful one? That makes so much sense, I guess that is why PS3 has so many HD remakes of PS2 games, why SE has re released every FF except for 7, 8, and 9. Yup re releasing XIV is a better idea then re releasing XI. :rolleyes:

[svengalis]

Eh, subscriber numbers arn't exactly the best thing to use for an argument when it comes to deciding which MMO's are hits or not. For starters most every MMO has a high subscriber rate at launch, not because the games any good but because people just want to check it out. Second, some people quit playing yet still pay for their account, because they don't want to lose their character in case they decide to come back one day. Third you also have to consider how many of those subscribers are mules, craft/gatering bots, RMT, etc. Each of these inflate the subscriber rate exponentially, which is why I always laugh when I see "Over 6 million subscribers" on copies of WoW.

Anyways, if people want to talk on the subject of cutting their losses I'd love to see what people have to say about why Sony didn't just cut their losses when the PS3 bombed harder than FFXIV at launch. I mean they've revised the system like 8 times in the last 5 years dumbing it down to make it more affordable, and now they're just starting to make profit on it.

Come on bro you can't compare PS3 to a game. Sony knew they would make money over time. I seriously doubt the same will every happen with XIV. The image has been tarnished. If it does it will be the first MMO in history to do so.

[svengalis]

Even if it wasn't FFXIV, i'd rather them have dropped the development cost of the game on some other new title, than a overaul to FFXI. From a business standpoint a new product makes way more sense.

There has been tons of remakes of SUCCESSFUL games just take a look at the PS3 catalog or even the FF series.

[svengalis]

Psychological reason: When you make grand investments into projects and they don't pay off, you're less likely to abandon them than if you invested less.

Business reason: SE had planned this from the beginning. They are not psychic; they cannot tell what players want, generically, from an MMO (Generically does not mean "Hey, give me WAR buffs!"). They allowed players, without monthly fees, to play the game and find flaws with the system. SE acted accordingly. The whole process is to release half a product and then gradually build the rest of the product up with the help of the player base. It's similar to hiring a group of players to develop the game alongside the development team, but is cheaper and avoids psychological biases that might emerge had the players been paid. Consequently, once SE feels they have adequately understood what their game needs, they are able to begin charging players (Build revenue) with the promise of enhanced gameplay (Prevents people from leaving).

Well they shouldn't have released that product to the public. People have betas for a reason. Look at The Old Republic, has been in beta since early last year and still has not released.

[Veigar]

FFXIV has come a long way in a year too. That being said, the finickier gamers of today aren't taking notice and just blasting it on the basis of the weak launch, as if there's no way it could have improved in this time.

Every single change they've made during this past year, AND up through the next, should have been done before release, PERIOD. SE showed absolute negligence in XIV's creation. They lost the trust of their supporters by releasing a game barely fit to be called an alpha to the public. I personally paid $80 for the CE and I won't be spending another dime on XIV just on principle.

Long story short, don't even try to make it sound like it's the gamer's fault.

[Reyn]

I'm sorry, but the only people who want an FFXI 2.0 are the people still playing it. I have a lot of friends who had their fill of XI and quit years ago. Not one of them are going around thinking, "Gosh, I sure would love a polished up XI so I can go back and do content I've already done with prettier graphics." They've played the game, they're satisfied with their progress, and they're not coming back. New players? Forget it - it's been eight years. That time has come and gone; people have already passed it up for one reason or another, and are even less likely to touch a reboot than ex-players. Maybe - MAYBE - it could be profitable in another ten years, but we're still dealing with the same generation that skipped FFXI to play WoW.

Say what you will about XIV, but expecting an XI-2 to happen is a pipe dream. The only thing I'm really expecting at this point is a lower monthly subscription. We've been paying for XIV all year. Now that they're charging XIV players, I better not be paying as much for XI as I did three years ago for a fraction of the update size. Especially when I'm seeing the juggernaut updates XIV is getting for the same fee.

[Atomic_Skull]

Relaunches are not unprecedented.

Successful relaunches are unprecedented however.




There are MULTIPLE other games out there that didn't launch great and later reinvented themselves and gained new players.

Name them.



They've already done half the work they need to get to their goal, to abandon it now would be even more of a colossal waste than if they never made the attempt in the first place.

That is the type of thinking that causes companies to go bankrupt. When a project has failed you are better off cutting your looses and terminating the project rather than risking even higher losses by continuing to throw money at it in the hope you can eventually turn it around.

[Atomic_Skull]

Revamping FFXIV, which still has a chance and is not limited by a rather ... complete trash game engine is the better business choice.

Don't expect miracles, but expect more than you ever could with the limited abilities of FFXI's core

You did read the part where they said they were completely replacing FFXIV's graphics engine in 2.0 right?




revamping an old investment that has payed for itself and has been dying at a steady rate for years and has a "technological cap" that won't allow furthering it greatly without a complete rewrite of the game engine

Again, they said they'd be replacing the graphics engine and server end software in FFXIV 2.0 They are literally developing a new game from the ground up and just reusing the same textures and models.

[Atomic_Skull]

I'm sorry, but the only people who want an FFXI 2.0 are the people still playing it. I have a lot of friends who had their fill of XI and quit years ago. Not one of them are going around thinking, "Gosh, I sure would love a polished up XI so I can go back and do content I've already done with prettier graphics." They've played the game, they're satisfied with their progress, and they're not coming back. New players? Forget it - it's been eight years. That time has come and gone; people have already passed it up for one reason or another, and are even less likely to touch a reboot than ex-players. Maybe - MAYBE - it could be profitable in another ten years, but we're still dealing with the same generation that skipped FFXI to play WoW.

Say what you will about XIV, but expecting an XI-2 to happen is a pipe dream. The only thing I'm really expecting at this point is a lower monthly subscription. We've been paying for XIV all year. Now that they're charging XIV players, I better not be paying as much for XI as I did three years ago for a fraction of the update size. Especially when I'm seeing the juggernaut updates XIV is getting for the same fee.


EVE Online has proven that a good game with periodic technology updates can continue to increase it's subscribers over the years.

[Alhanelem]

There has been tons of remakes of SUCCESSFUL gamesIt's not a remake if it's the same game played by the same players on the same platforms and there was no interruption of service. Overhaul, perhaps, but you can't brand it a remake as if it were say the DS remake of an old final fantasy game. There's a difference between a "remake" and an upgrade or overhaul.

virtually all of these tons of successful remakes you refer to are offline single player games that everyone who isn't a fan wouldn't know or has forgotten about.

Someone once said that past performance is no guarantee of future performance. That's true whether or not the past performance was good.

Finally, there remains the matter of practicality. SE very well may re-release the game under the PS2 classics or follow through on that supposed rumor to release it on the PS Vita. But any of these rereleases are going to be just that, and not an upgrade, overhaul, remake, or anything else. Just adding the game on a new platform.

Of course trying to argue in support of this on a forum for the old game is most likely a futile effort regardless. Most likely, everyone here is of the mind that they shouldn't have attempted to make a new game in the first place, regardless of how good or bad it would have ended up being. Personally though, I'd rather join the cling to the old. It's been a good run, and it will be for at least a little while longer, but eventually, the game will have been milked of all it's worth and a new game, be it XIV or some other game someone else makes will eventually take its place.

(PPS: In reality, SE has more than enough money to devote funds to both projects. If XIV was cancelled, that would NOT suddenly mean that XI gets a ton more money and more developer support.)

(PPPS: I still play XI and I still enjoy it. But I don't feel that XIV nor SE's attempt to improve its quality should be mindlessly shot down.)


Name them.Already named them. Read the thread.


Successful relaunches are unprecedented however.No, they're not. See previously mentioned games that grew after a product revamp and re-promotion/re-branding.


That is the type of thinking that causes companies to go bankrupt.Show me your MBA please. I've never heard a more silly comment. If you've already done 90% of the work on a project, you should just finish it. Even if it doesn't do well, some sales is better than zero sales and throwing everything you invested out the window.

[Runespider]

In the MMO world a 1 year old game is an old MMO, there are too many new games coming out soon to worry about a failure of a game for most players. I highly doubt v2 will have much impact at all honestly, outside of the few that already bought it anyway lol

FFXIV will have to be epic beyond cmpare to even have a chance at a 2nd attempt, 1 year is not enough time to do what they are doing because a) they are slow and incompetent b) it just never happens that a failure comes good to the standard required to overcom the massive investment. I don't think they can do it at all but in one year? Have you seen what they accomplished in the last year?

If by some miracle they did turn the game around they would have to massively cut the budget back after it happens because it's just cost them so much money. If you think anything else you haven't been paying attention to FFXI, which is still one of the most successful monthly sub MMOs out there...and they still scrimp us. Most companies would kill to have a playerbase the size of the XI one but they just take us for granted.

[Atomic_Skull]

It's not a remake if it's the same game played by the same players on the same platforms and there was no interruption of service. Overhaul, perhaps, but you can't brand it a remake as if it were say the DS remake of an old final fantasy game. There's a difference between a "remake" and an upgrade or overhaul.

They are replacing the entire graphics engine, all of the zones, the entire UI and all of the gameplay mechanics. It is an entirely new game that reuses the same textures and models. It is a completely different MMO with "FFXIV" slapped onto the title screen. They are even calling it a "reboot".

If that's not a remake then I don't know what is.

[Atomic_Skull]

Already named them. Read the thread.


The SWG overhaul was widely considered a failure. DDO and LOTR only got more players because they went FTP. And none of those games were as awful as FFXIV is now.


If you've already done 90% of the work on a project, you should just finish it. Even if it doesn't do well, some sales is better than zero sales and throwing everything you invested out the window.

They haven't done 90% of the work though. They are basic starting over again from the ground up. Best case they are 50% done, but probably more like 35-40%. You should not let a failing project get to the 90% mark in the first place.

Valve and Blizzard have both dropped projects partway though because they weren't working out. There is a common factor between these two companies, they both produce consistently good, successful games. If you have a project that is failing throwing good money after bad is not wise.

[Vold]

They have a finish date for the end of 2012/2013. THEY ARE NOT CLOSE TO BEING DONE WITH FFXIV. They are basically rebooting it from the ground up AGAIN. They don't seem to have a problem with abandoning FFXI before it's population even started to dwindle. I don't think it's inconceivable for them to abandon FFXIV half way through. Give that game frickin extremely small dev crews and focus on 11, not the other way around.

Bottom line you don't make sequels to MMOs. They never do well unless it's one of the free ones. And while we can argue until we're blue in the face about how 14 was not a sequel to 11, that's exactly how people view it. 14 only had a shot because of the promise. A FFXI without PS2 limits. Fresh start for SE. People were hopeful. The ball got dropped. I'm sure PS3 will pull in some more JP support in the end but as far as NA goes the game is toast.

[Saefinn]

Whilst a vamped up FFXI would be nice, all you're really doing is reselling an existing product and yes remakes do sell, I mean I've got Final Fantasy I, II & III and Monkey Island 1 & 2 (also on my Xbox 360) on my iPod and I'm looking forward to the remake of Abe's Oddysee. I've also bought some old games off of Steam too. But it's all pretty much nostalgia for me and I'm not paying a montly subscription to play them and heck remakes and rereleases are cheap to buy.

A remake of an MMORPG would be a big risk because an MMORPG isn't the same as every other game as it's an ongoing subscription and people spend plenty of hours on an MMORPG, I reckon a portion of the current userbase they'd subscribe but they're already subscribed, but at the same time, the drop of console support would lose a number current subscribers, plus folk with below-par PC systems. FFXIV itself requires a powerful system.

FFXI 2.0 would have to be a lot of work too because of the current engine, it was built around the PS2's hardware...a decade ago and it horribly optimised and I suspect over the years different coders have touched it. The XBox 360 and PC versions are ports. But lets say they are able to do it or just use a different engine (and spend the time redoing everything) they'd have to make a lot of content - remoddelling and retexturing content to look more up to date. So it'd be time and money, perhaps more time and money than FFXIV 2.0 will take them.

SE of course would have to ask themselves: will it give us a return? Given the risk of losing a number of current subscribers, would it bring back players to fill the missing gap, attract new ones and increase the userbase? FFXI has been played and tried by many and people have played through the content and I suspect that'll have a huge factor to play. Does the current content have enough of a replay value for somebody to pay a monthly fee? Will a rerelease bring enough new players to make up for it?

Saying that, FFXIV 2.0 is a big risk too, but at least they've got FFXIV's content and all they need to do is build on top of it and improve the content and remarket it. The trouble will be convincing people who have already played it to play again and also to entice people away from the bad reviews, but then, a repackaged and remarketed FFXIV 2.0 could receive a new set of reviews praising it and giving it good publicity. A PS3 release will open up the market for more players as not everybody plays on a souped-up gaming power machine.

Of course, it could just be a flop. I'd hold out and see how good (or how bad) the end result is actually going to be. You never know, SE might actually do something to regain a little bit of their credibility. Saying that, SE thinks FFXIII-2 is a good idea.

[xbobx]

It would be stupid to invest that type of money in a 10 year old mmo also.

SE should have canceled ff14 a long time ago but their ego probably got in the way.

[Aikagi]

According to SE, FFXI has had more than 500k players at some point in its life. Amazingly quite a few years after its initial launch.
http://www.playonline.com/pcd/topics/ff11us/0904/topics_all.html

I think the joke at the time was to figure out how many of those were RMT, but you can't really make that call with any game.

It's no WoW, but then again... I don't think any game will beat that one any time soon.

I understand FFXI is old at this point, but old games do get some reworks. Ultima Online just celebrated its 14th birthday, and their devs are still developing content for it. This is with Mythic also having two other MMOs running at the same time along side it.

Everquest is still running, and looks like it gets updates of some kind twice a month. They're also on their 17th expansion, soon to be 18th in November (which apparently will raise their level cap and add 12 new zones, among other things). Pretty good for a game that came out in what? 1999?

I don't think FFXI will ever see a complete overhaul, but can we stop punching it in the face with the "You're too old!" line? If SE is smart they'll run both games, and develop for both. This is the best way to gain the most overall subscribers.

As far as FF14 goes... I'll wait until 2013 to see how it all pans out. I still enjoy XI, and will continue to play it for the time being.

[Byrth]

I think we would see a very substantial surge of players if they re-released FFXI. The Dev team has addressed many old problems with the game and the nostalgia value is very high. I don't think it would be a case where nostalgic players pick it up again for two weeks and go, "Oh man, now I remember why I quit!" and cancel their subscription. They'd get to level cap (99) in the new way, be able to do all the storylines with a small group of friends (2), and have fun in Abyssea. That's months of content, plus whatever new stuff they add.

Apart from the graphics re-work and stuff I mentioned above, the main thing that they need to do to make the game restart friendly is eliminate the skill up system. Just have people automatically cap skills whenever they hit the next level. XPing isn't an "event" in the game anymore really, so why should skilling up still be an event?

[Chamaan]

An FFXI 2.0 overhaul would mean the decision to cut out PS2 support, which shoots down the "XI but with prettier graphics" argument. They can afford to redo the entire engine for 14 because they're not currently hampered by a console's limited hardware configuration. Dropping PS2 means they can give us new expansions completely built around level 75-99 content. New places to visit and explore that can lure people back. A new engine could give us more than 80 max inventory spaces in each sack.

I'm beating the oldest drum in the game by pointing the finger at PS2 users, but it's an old drum because it's the most obvious problem.

[MarkovChain]

FFXIV is being rebuild from scratch, it's only keeping the name. All the maps are going to be changed. If you ever played FFXIV after or during beta, everything was laggy due to structural issues, from selling to NPC to using commands during a fight or just walking. They said they rebuild the UI from scratch, as well as the entire video engine and .. the server. The current storyline will also be lost from what I understand (though it was one of the coolest features : the missions and their cutscenes).


I don't think it's ok to do this to FFXI but on the other hand we all would like a less annoying macro system. We need to swap at least 16 slots per macro with a few /wait commands inbetween. I think they have already said that they have plan to revamp the interface. With all the thing they announced with FFXIV and the poll about hardware, we can expect a PC upgrade soon for the UI at least. Other than that I think the graphics are ok as is. It's not awesome but it's still very realistic and quite pretty. We would also need the ability to multibox with an official tool... and faster login obviously ... ala FFXIV.

[svengalis]

Whilst a vamped up FFXI would be nice, all you're really doing is reselling an existing product and yes remakes do sell, I mean I've got Final Fantasy I, II & III and Monkey Island 1 & 2 (also on my Xbox 360) on my iPod and I'm looking forward to the remake of Abe's Oddysee. I've also bought some old games off of Steam too. But it's all pretty much nostalgia for me and I'm not paying a montly subscription to play them and heck remakes and rereleases are cheap to buy.

A remake of an MMORPG would be a big risk because an MMORPG isn't the same as every other game as it's an ongoing subscription and people spend plenty of hours on an MMORPG, I reckon a portion of the current userbase they'd subscribe but they're already subscribed, but at the same time, the drop of console support would lose a number current subscribers, plus folk with below-par PC systems. FFXIV itself requires a powerful system.

FFXI 2.0 would have to be a lot of work too because of the current engine, it was built around the PS2's hardware...a decade ago and it horribly optimised and I suspect over the years different coders have touched it. The XBox 360 and PC versions are ports. But lets say they are able to do it or just use a different engine (and spend the time redoing everything) they'd have to make a lot of content - remoddelling and retexturing content to look more up to date. So it'd be time and money, perhaps more time and money than FFXIV 2.0 will take them.

SE of course would have to ask themselves: will it give us a return? Given the risk of losing a number of current subscribers, would it bring back players to fill the missing gap, attract new ones and increase the userbase? FFXI has been played and tried by many and people have played through the content and I suspect that'll have a huge factor to play. Does the current content have enough of a replay value for somebody to pay a monthly fee? Will a rerelease bring enough new players to make up for it?

Saying that, FFXIV 2.0 is a big risk too, but at least they've got FFXIV's content and all they need to do is build on top of it and improve the content and remarket it. The trouble will be convincing people who have already played it to play again and also to entice people away from the bad reviews, but then, a repackaged and remarketed FFXIV 2.0 could receive a new set of reviews praising it and giving it good publicity. A PS3 release will open up the market for more players as not everybody plays on a souped-up gaming power machine.

Of course, it could just be a flop. I'd hold out and see how good (or how bad) the end result is actually going to be. You never know, SE might actually do something to regain a little bit of their credibility. Saying that, SE thinks FFXIII-2 is a good idea.

What makes you guys think a XIV remake(basically) will give a return and an XI remake would not? Blizzard did it with WoW.

[Alhanelem]

Blizzard did it with WoW. No they didn't. All they did was release an expansion, along with which they plopped some random steaming piles of lava and deamon around the landscape of the original world.

... Anyway, I don't think people realize what kind of an incredible task it would take to rebuild the FFXI engine, originally built for the PS2, and make it ocmpatible with all the new technology today and at the same time keep it compatible with all the user data both on their servers and our client machines. It's like rebuilding an Edsel to be a late model sports car. Rebuilding FFXIV on the other hand is just rebuilding last year's sports car to be like this year's and ironing out its defects.

To be perfectly honest: I'd love to see a rebuilt FFXI as much as anyone here. Even if they did choose to cancel FFXIV, however, that doesn't suddenly mean they'd start working on an FFXIV rebuild.

[Saefinn]

Blizzard didn't remake WoW, they've gradually improved the game as they've updated it and as part of an expansion pack they went out reshaped some areas of the game, what they didn't do was go out and completely re-do everything. Plus Blizzard didn't have PS2 limitations to deal with and when people say PS2 limitations they don't JUST mean the fact they still support the PS2 but because of how they've fundamentally built the engine, its built around the PS2 hardware and the XBox 360 and PC versions are ports and pretty bad ones at that - just look at how poorly it performs on the 360. WoW vs FFXI on my laptop has some major differences, WoW performs loads better, although I get 20-30 fps it's a consistent 20-30fps and they've really only had to focus on the PC hardware.

If SE were suddenly to drop PS2 support and improve upon the engine, it would be noble for 360 and PC users and probably would take less work but would hardly constitute as a FFXI 2.0 and wouldn't be a remake. A remake would mean remaking every piece of media in the game and improve upon it and would mean spending more money on 3D modellers and animators, they could probably recycle some stuff from FFXIV like some of the textures, scenery models (like trees) and the models used for character races, but you're still looking at a massive overhaul in terms of media. It would pretty much mean remaking a whole game with all the expansions...in the space of a year. It'd be a bigger (and more expensive) job than FFXIV 2.0.


FFXIV 2.0 could be a major flop like FFXIV 1.0 was, but at least as a FFXIV 2.0 it can be remarketed and rereviewed and be given a second opinion. But it had better be damn good to get people playing it.

[Twille]

You can debate it all you want, but 14 is still crap and will remain crap. They can only manage a meager 30k players when its FREE....
(besides, no self-respecting person wants to play an elvaan that glistens like a gay vampire)

[Runespider]

FFXIV is being rebuild from scratch.

I still find it amusing the mess they made and what little they did with the 5 years they had and are now saying they are going to redo almost everyting in 12 months. Cute that people believe it, at best it will be 2 years most likely before ps3/v2 launch. No matter how you wanna paint the picture they can't do everything they want to do with the team they have in such a short time. Add to this that they are pretty much in "destroy FFXI population" mode atm and they are going to see profits from this game drop too.

Blizzard could maybe do it and do a good job of something like that but not SE.

[SNK]

I also wouldn't consider SWG's reinventing a faliure. However, they developed their new game to replace the old game

I'm sorry but I'm going to call you out on this fallacy. SWG was doing very well at the start and had a huge memberbase which players had access to literally a world do be able to do anything along with if I recall 30+ classes to choose from in an econmy where everything was player controlled.

Sony decided to drop a turd by dropping 30 clases down to 10 and to make things worse, they never told anyone they were doing it. They just did the patch and told people what they did they same day without even consulting the playerbase about it 1st.

Guess what?

subscriptions dropped so damn low so damn fast that even with players screaming at Sony to do a roll-back on an obviously retarded idea, Sony ignored them and still tried to feed it to people that the game had lots of exciting new content with what they did, that they lost damn near 85% of thier subscribers within a month.

SWG in the end was a total failure and I'm glad that game finally got shut down.

Good riddance.

[Atomic_Skull]

... Anyway, I don't think people realize what kind of an incredible task it would take to rebuild the FFXI engine, originally built for the PS2, and make it ocmpatible with all the new technology today and at the same time keep it compatible with all the user data both on their servers and our client machines.

Not as much as you think if they licensed a third party graphics engine such as Gambryo Lightspeed or whatever. You save a huge amount of time and money by using middleware instead of developing everything in house. SE has already done this before with The Last Remnant, it was developed on the Unreal 3 engine using a team that was smaller than the current FFXI team.

Models and textures are just models and textures, you can convert between formats fairly easily (3D modeling is something I have personal experience with) Also many creature models are duplicated in FFXIV and could be taken from there and zone textures could be reused as well. All of the concept art for FFXI's zones exist already, so it's not like you are creating zones completely from scratch either. Duplicating something that already exists is less work than having to design and build it from the ground up.

[tinydog]

lol at the thought they would ever make XI-2. if you want something new your best bet is to wait until next year for ff14 2.0

[Atomic_Skull]

lol at the thought they would ever make XI-2. if you want something new your best bet is to wait until next year for ff14 2.0

If you think they can build a complete new FFXIV in one year when 1.0 took them five years then you are kidding yourself. Take off the fanboy colored glasses.

[Alhanelem]

Not as much as you think if they licensed a third party graphics engine such as Gambryo Lightspeed or whatever.They've already licenced third party engines before, and that didn't go well. Also, any third party engine is going to be inherently incompatible with the old game engine and everything, including the art since you'd want to upgrade the graphics, would need to be redone from nothing. So, yes, it would be as much as I think. Already built game engines do speed development for new projects. But there's only so much it can do for an old project. Also, licensing the engine itself would eb a major cost, and when you build your own engine you can be sure it does what you want it to do.


If you think they can build a complete new FFXIV in one year when 1.0It isn't 100% all new. Art assets will be retained (Though some new assets will be needed), core game mechanics will be retained, characters and their data will be retained. Also, they aren't just starting this now. It's been being worked on for months now.

[MarkovChain]

If you think they can build a complete new FFXIV in one year when 1.0 took them five years then you are kidding yourself. Take off the fanboy colored glasses.

Or you could just read what they have as plans. SE themselves announced a complete reconstruction of servers, zone, UI, algorithms and so on. It's pretty much 95% of what makes the game.

[svengalis]

No they didn't. All they did was release an expansion, along with which they plopped some random steaming piles of lava and deamon around the landscape of the original world.

... Anyway, I don't think people realize what kind of an incredible task it would take to rebuild the FFXI engine, originally built for the PS2, and make it ocmpatible with all the new technology today and at the same time keep it compatible with all the user data both on their servers and our client machines. It's like rebuilding an Edsel to be a late model sports car. Rebuilding FFXIV on the other hand is just rebuilding last year's sports car to be like this year's and ironing out its defects.

To be perfectly honest: I'd love to see a rebuilt FFXI as much as anyone here. Even if they did choose to cancel FFXIV, however, that doesn't suddenly mean they'd start working on an FFXIV rebuild.

Going off topic but in Cataclysm all of Azeroth maps were almost completely redesigned like what they are doing in XIV. It was alot like Rift where they streamlined the quest, you get the quest and can go do it right in the same area instead of walking across the zone to the other side to do it. They also update the graphics engine for higher end PCs.

[Alhanelem]

Going off topic but in Cataclysm all of Azeroth maps were almost completely redesignedI've seen them. They're not redesigned. The layout is still the same. There's just new places to go and people to see.

[Jackstin]

If you think they can build a complete new FFXIV in one year when 1.0 took them five years then you are kidding yourself. Take off the fanboy colored glasses.

FFXIV 2.0 will have 2 years development before its final release in January 2013.

Contrary to what people say on the FF11/14 forums square have not been working on FFxiv for 5 years. Anyone who knows Square know that when they announce a game with a trailer that does not mean they have started building the game. The Rapture trailer as a result shows somewhere which does not appear in FF14. In fact FF14 began work only a few years before release.

Finally, FFXIV 2.0 is a complete remake, with new assets, but they are reusing some things (all instanced dungeons) which should cut down development time. SE have got to grips with this generation's graphics now, and are quite able to turn around a large game in 2 years, in the same way Assassin's Creed (a fairly large game) can be released every year.

[Darkvalkyr]

All this hate in this forum.

Why do I continue to come here, I wonder?

Anycase, I really hope people've looked at XIV since 1.19 instead of thinking the game hasn't changed. If you have and then made the call that XI-2 is going to be more successful than XIV 2.0, that's fine.

[svengalis]

All this hate in this forum.

Why do I continue to come here, I wonder?

Anycase, I really hope people've looked at XIV since 1.19 instead of thinking the game hasn't changed. If you have and then made the call that XI-2 is going to be more successful than XIV 2.0, that's fine.

I just updated and logged in. Now I am logged out. Will come back when 2.0 hits sometime in 2013.

[Draylo]

FFXIV doesn't have ps2 limitations

[Zarchery]

It's amazing that people with access to Square Enix's balance sheets and market research are members of this forum.

[Zarchery]

FFXIV has come a long way in a year too. That being said, the finickier gamers of today aren't taking notice and just blasting it on the basis of the weak launch, as if there's no way it could have improved in this time.

The game's defenders say this a lot, but I never hear any details on exactly what these improvements are.

Regardless, even if I wasn't bitter about SE releasing what amounted to an art project, I no longer have the time or the computing power to commit to it.

[Jackstin]

The game's defenders say this a lot, but I never hear any details on exactly what these improvements are.


All you have to do is read the producer's letters dude. There's nothing in them that aren't massive improvements. If you want specifics, look to the removing of physical levels, rebalancing that makes jobs actually useful, THE MATERIA SYSTEM! (had to be capsed), chocobos and airships, lag is pretty much gone, lots more content (including amazing battles like Ifrit), and the focus away from guild leves, and the UI is better (than it was, still rubbish lol).

It's still not a "good" game, but its got potential. FF11 hasn't. FF11 will always be a pretty rubbish game, designed for those not brave enough to give it up.

[Sparthos]

I'll check in on XIV in 2013 when the first vestiges of endgame start to appear.

[Atomic_Skull]

They've already licenced third party engines before, and that didn't go well.

SE's problem and not anything inherantly wrong with third party engines. Last Remnant wasn;t a bad game, it just wasn;t a great game either, and most of that can be blamed on the tiny development team (somthing like 6 people)


Also, any third party engine is going to be inherently incompatible with the old game engine and everything, including the art since you'd want to upgrade the graphics, would need to be redone from nothing.

Models and textures can be converted between formats. Geometry is geometry, textures are textures. You might have to tweak things a little but it's not like you have to completely throw everything out and rebuild it.


Already built game engines do speed development for new projects. But there's only so much it can do for an old project. Also, licensing the engine itself would eb a major cost, and when you build your own engine you can be sure it does what you want it to do.

After seeing Crystal Tools I'm certain that a third party engine would be more capable than anything SE might create in house. In fact they pretty much proved that when the decided to base Luminous on Eidos's code instead of their own.

[Atomic_Skull]

FF11 will always be a pretty rubbish game, designed for those not brave enough to give it up.

Obvious troll is obvious.

[Vagrua]

I'll probably try FFXIV when it's released to the PS3 as will many others I bet.

[Vitus]

This is probably not a question that will be answerable by anyone who reads it, but I'm just throwing it out there because it's on my mind after looking at the announcement of an FFXIV re-release, dubbed FFXIV 2.0. (http://wdl.square-enix.com/ffxiv/download/en/FFXIV_2.0_Outline_EN.pdf)

Why does SE choose to invest (what appears to be) a substantial amount of capital and manpower in a game that was received by the international community as an unqualified failure?

The scale of the changes detailed in that slideshow are so large that they would be comparable to re-releasing FFXI with better graphics and another (small-ish) expansion. You'd drop a lot of the infrastructure building they talk about, probably increase the graphical re-works required due to having more character models, increase some backbone code programming, and you'd have approximately the same amount of work.

Why in the world would you choose to invest in a title that's synonymous with failure instead of one that has nostalgia value for many MMO players? If you're trying to bring people back to the brand, this is not how to do it.


It is logical to invest in a project that offers opportunity and growth. FFXIV is new and has great potential. That's where their money should go. FFXI on the other hand is almost a decade old and its population is the remain of mostly hardcore/adddicts. The hardcore/addicts are very easy to please, a few patches here and there a year will make them happy. That's what SE is doing. They left a few devs to create a few bones a year and dangle them in front of our faces and make us labor as hard and as long as possible. The longer we get to the bones, the longer FFXI lives and the more money they get to invest in FFXIV

[svengalis]

All you have to do is read the producer's letters dude. There's nothing in them that aren't massive improvements. If you want specifics, look to the removing of physical levels, rebalancing that makes jobs actually useful, THE MATERIA SYSTEM! (had to be capsed), chocobos and airships, lag is pretty much gone, lots more content (including amazing battles like Ifrit), and the focus away from guild leves, and the UI is better (than it was, still rubbish lol).



It's still not a "good" game, but its got potential. FF11 hasn't. FF11 will always be a pretty rubbish game, designed for those not brave enough to give it up.
LOL sure dude. Everytime I log into the game I log into the same area in Uldah it is just as laggy as when the game launched. I have a GTX 460 and it still lags in that city in that game. LOL they still have not optimized that game at all. No wonder there is no PS3 version, the game can't even run on mid ranged PCs properly.

[Deadvinta]

Very few of you people know how to argue, or to view a situation from a decent perspective to make an argument from.

[Reyn]

LOL sure dude. Everytime I log into the game I log into the same area in Uldah it is just as laggy as when the game launched. I have a GTX 460 and it still lags in that city in that game. LOL they still have not optimized that game at all. No wonder there is no PS3 version, the game can't even run on mid ranged PCs properly.

You clearly did not read the notes for the upcoming 2.0, which include a new graphics engine designed to run better on lower-end PCs. Or the move to new servers which will reduce lag even further.

And yes, much of the server side lag that was there at launch is gone now. The UI is much more responsive than it used to be, most evident when doing things like NPCing items. When the game launched, that was the most nightmarish process I'd ever encountered.

There is no PS3 version because they wisely chose to hold it off and use it as a relaunch of the game.

Also: FFXI still lags even on top of the line PCs in certain areas, so...

[Byrth]

It is logical to invest in a project that offers opportunity and growth. FFXIV is new and has great potential. That's where their money should go. FFXI on the other hand is almost a decade old and its population is the remain of mostly hardcore/adddicts. The hardcore/addicts are very easy to please, a few patches here and there a year will make them happy. That's what SE is doing. They left a few devs to create a few bones a year and dangle them in front of our faces and make us labor as hard and as long as possible. The longer we get to the bones, the longer FFXI lives and the more money they get to invest in FFXIV

FFXIV is inhabited by fanboys, who are even easier to please than hardcores and addicts (case and point, they're playing FFXIV). Your definition of "potential for growth" basically boils down to graphics that could compete in the current market, which would be one of the facets of updating FFXI.

Nostalgia is marketable too, and FFXIV v2.0 isn't going to be able to shake the first half of its name.

[noodles355]

Also: FFXI still lags even on top of the line PCs in certain areas, so...Whitegate still has terrible lag even when there's only 15-20 people in the zone. It's rediculous.

[Alhanelem]

FFXIV is inhabited by fanboys,Um, so is FFXI.

FFXI fanboys hate FFXIV.

FFXIV fanboys don't hate FFXI, though.

[Nynja]

Honest question: Whos gonna want to play FFXIV when everyone who managed to stick through that BS of the past year has every job maxed out? Whos gonna want to play catch up to that extent?

Remember what FFXI was like when NA's got involved.

[Alhanelem]

Honest question: Whos gonna want to play FFXIV when everyone who managed to stick through that BS of the past year has every job maxed out? Whos gonna want to play catch up to that extent?

Remember what FFXI was like when NA's got involved.
I seem to remember FFXI still growing at that time and reaching half a million paid subscribers.

Having a decent portion of high levels on a server means the economy is established and there will be plenty of goods and items to support newer players. It's not a bad thing.

[Reyn]

Honest question: Whos gonna want to play FFXIV when everyone who managed to stick through that BS of the past year has every job maxed out? Whos gonna want to play catch up to that extent?

Remember what FFXI was like when NA's got involved.

I'm assuming the release of their new job line ups will coincide with 2.0, although I could be wrong. If that's the case, seasoned players will be leveling along with everyone else. Maxed out is only level 50 right now.

FFXI did just fine with the 360 version was released, and the length of catching up there was for new players then was far greater than XIV will see.

[Greatguardian]

Very few of you people know how to argue, or to view a situation from a decent perspective to make an argument from.

Dialectic reasoning and critical thinking aren't taught seriously in NA schools any more until the 4-yr University level, so there you have it.

It doesn't help that most people aren't fact-checking or reading the thread for comprehension either.

[MarkovChain]

LOL sure dude. Everytime I log into the game I log into the same area in Uldah it is just as laggy as when the game launched. I have a GTX 460 and it still lags in that city in that game. LOL they still have not optimized that game at all. No wonder there is no PS3 version, the game can't even run on mid ranged PCs properly.
The lag in Uldah (as well as as other cities near adventurer guild) is due to the amount of characters around you so it's basically server lag, and has nothing to do with graphics. When SE mentions they will adapt display to the user's configuration they are thinking about landscape and quality of display for instance. I got nearly the top graphic card+ cpu form when FF14 was released and the game is awful when I have max graphical settings so they do have serious problems with their engine. It's not only the fact that the graphicx are so cool that you need an expensive config to run it. I think it's more due to the fact that their engine doesn't work very well. Add to this retarded server lag ... Nevermind the fact that you can barely read text when you display it on HDTV which is quite facepalmesque since you have to drop the resolution to even read the menu or people's names.

[Rearden]

http://www.square-enix.com/jp/recruit/career/job/game/plbattle.html

SE is looking to hire additional people for FFXI Battle Planning.

Camate, could we get some additional information on what this pertains to and what it means for us? Any info on an updated roadmap would be good as well.

[Gokulo]

Honest question: Whos gonna want to play FFXIV when everyone who managed to stick through that BS of the past year has every job maxed out? Whos gonna want to play catch up to that extent?

Remember what FFXI was like when NA's got involved.

Ehh, I think a lot of people actually.

Plus, they will be releasing new servers for 2.0 (even language-specific ones) so you can start fresh with everyone.


Btw. People need to understand why they are doing this: XI wasn't a fail, XIV was, it destroyed their reputation. And they want to show that it can be regained, that's why their putting so much work into it. If they only worried about current costs then they would just close down XIV. Instead they allowed people to play it for free while giving them updates. What Yoshida is attempting is quite insane, but if he succeeds then it will mean a lot for the whole company, and if 2.0 is just another fail, then well... S-E can just pack bags :p

[Mirage]

ITT: Lag and framerate is the same.

[scaevola]

No, they aren't and no they shouldn't.

They've already done half the work they need to get to their goal, to abandon it now would be even more of a colossal waste than if they never made the attempt in the first place.

It's throwing good money after bad. If people give FFXIV another chance it will be out of the desire to see a once-beloved game company produce something memorable after floundering for a decade, not because they are once again going to be willing to put up with the glacial pace of SE's content release schedule.

It's actually really fortunate for FFXI players that SE's been releasing a steady chain of turds in connection with the FF brand for the past 10 years, because otherwise they would not be so dependent on the revenue from an MMO whose reception was lukewarm at absolute best even at launch outside of a strong core following.


There are MULTIPLE other games out there that didn't launch great and later reinvented themselves and gained new players. It can and has been done. And in this case, enough time will have passed that marketing the game a second time can work.

Name one.

There are games that launched reasonably well and reinvented after subscriptions dwindled, but there's never been an MMO that's been able to recover after this much bad press. Warhammer would have more than 4 servers left if this were the case, and that game's bad press was world-of-mouth (critics/press loved it) only.





One thing I can tell you, because I know you and the other people hating on FFXIV are thinking the same thing: Cancelling the project and cutting their losses doesn't suddenly mean a better chance for a revamped FFXI. They would most likely devote the freed resources to a new or other project.

This is probably true. Obviously everyone would like to see an EverQuest situation where we get a new expansion every few years so long as people are still willing to pay for it, but the way for SE to rehabilitate the FF brand is to make games that people want to play, not revamp an old game people got over close to a decade ago.


Insert joke about another FF4 remake here, which has done way more to undermine their credibility than making a bad MMO.

[kewitt]

Name one.



The closest one I can think of is DnD online. It never got a good launch. They changed to a 3 tier payment system. Free to play, Pay for item, and subscriptions.

Each tier get you more of the game enjoyment.

They also fixed up the graphic engine.

[Alhanelem]

Which if you read back, I already named. They were down to three or four servers a while after the launch. They revamped the tutorials, added a solo difficulty, revamped the graphics engine with DX 10/11 support, added a ton of new content, new classes, and rebranded the game "DDO Unlimited" and re-marketed it, along with the F2P model. They've more than doubled the number of servers and then added one more German server later after integrating the Europe version of the game and going international as FFXI has (Oddly, there's a fair few players from Korea who have a rather big guild on the server I played on).

[scaevola]

My understanding was DDO launched with modest hype followed by general ambivalence that basically killed the game when the more dedicated Turbine fans left for the vastly superior LotRO; DDO sort of stagnated but it was never to my knowledge pegged as a straight up bad game. This is a really important distinction, because your main target is attracting returning players and their friends, and ambivalence is much easier to overcome than outright dislike.

Not for nothing, Turbine has a history of really smartly marketing their games (they make their ad blitzes when the pricing schemes change, and trust the community itself to sell the content via the online communities built around the games), whereas I haven't seen an ad for FFXI since 2003. Hopes are not especially high that SE will be able to recreate the publicity that made the revitalization of games like EVE, DDO, and LotRO successful.

[Alhanelem]

I've played DDO at many points throughout its existence and I can tell you for sure that it didn't have anything to do with LOTRO (which also got a similar rebranding and rebuilding and F2P transition almost around the same time as DDO).

One thing you're right about though is marketing. I think I saw one ad for FFXIII, for FFXIV it was only in-store media (like the inserts that go over store security checkpoints, and posters and magazines) and the rest was E3 and word of mouth.

[Razziel]

EVE Online has proven that a good game with periodic technology updates can continue to increase it's subscribers over the years.

This... that game still holds up today visually and it's just as old (if not older) than ffxi.

Just for the record... me and a few friends came back to this game after a 4 year hiatus. This game does and could draw back old players.

[Alhanelem]

EVE is a really strange beast. I heard about a new FPS-styled game based in the EVE universe that, while a seperate game, actually interacts with EVE Online in some way.

[Byrth]

Just for the record... me and a few friends came back to this game after a 4 year hiatus. This game does and could draw back old players.

FFXI was the "first MMO" for a lot of FF fanboys/girls. It popped their MMO cherries, so to speak. I think the nostalgia value of the game is huge for these people, and they'd flock back to it if an update were released, and FFXIV would summarily die from the loss of players.

[Asymptotic]

FFXI does seem to be hiring for their development team, based on a post in the Japanese forums a few days ago. So maybe there's hope?

[FrankReynolds]

FFXI does seem to be hiring for their development team, based on a post in the Japanese forums a few days ago. So maybe there's hope?

Thats because they stole a guy from FFXI and sent him to FFXIV :P

on a related note: I saw a shitload of tv commercials for FFXIV when it was about to come out. They looked awesome, and even my girlfriend (who thinks MMOs are for nerds) wanted to get it. We were mad as hell when we found out that it would not be on 360, and that I needed to buy a stupid expensive graphics card to run it (they are a lot cheaper now).

[Insaniac]

FFXI does seem to be hiring for their development team, based on a post in the Japanese forums a few days ago. So maybe there's hope?That or someone quit/got fired/got moved to FFXIV and they have to resort to posting craigslist.org style adds on their forums because they can't convince anyone to work in the un-air conditioned 6x10 storage unit that they run the FFXI dev team out of.

[Atomic_Skull]

Plus, they will be releasing new servers for 2.0 (even language-specific ones) so you can start fresh with everyone.

You don't want region specific servers, PSO players can tell you why that is.

[FrankReynolds]

You don't want region specific servers, PSO players can tell you why that is.

if it was run anything like this forum, the Japanese server would get twice as many updates. that would suck.

[Atomic_Skull]

if it was run anything like this forum, the Japanese server would get twice as many updates. that would suck.

Pretty much that yes. In PSO the english servers fell further and further behind in updates till they were getting new content a year behind the japanese servers. Then they said it wasn't worth running them anymore and shut them down.

[Winrie]

Since the intelligence level of the ffxi community still seems bright, hello I'm SE, we have decided to drop our latest mmorpg project ffxiv due to numerous people bitching we don't want to ooze money into a 10 year oldgame that is limited by the ps2 as we have stated on numerous occasions. We would also like to add that we want to show our competitors and customers that we will drop anything we do that doesn't work at any time no matter how much money we dump into it, because we don't mind being the laughing stock of our dedicated playerbase and our competitors, thank you!

Seriously people? Dry the tears ffs, I play both games and they equally suck, ffxi is a done project IMO barely able to keep itself afloat, why not use it for ff14 funding, chances of ffxiv taking off for 10+ years is way more likely than ffxi getting a revamp and going 10+ more years.

[Darkzeru]

Pretty much that yes. In PSO the english servers fell further and further behind in updates till they were getting new content a year behind the japanese servers. Then they said it wasn't worth running them anymore and shut them down.

PSU was pretty much the same way stuff didn't seem as exciting then since it's really just the recycles date of what JP got 12 months before lol

[Phen]

I don't think a re-release would work for FFXI because its core systems really show their age. Craft system, skill system, terrible balance, some drop systems, UI. It really comes in before ps2 limitations as age limitations. Yes they could certainly change all of this with that sorta money- but they wont. And its not because they cant its because this team has never felt like doing that. That's there prerogative but not listening to your player base more seems silly(ex: PW till people got sick, current state of several jobs, "nobody uses Abyssea to exp" voidwatch drop distribution is fine).


Im still of the opinion in the long run its better FFXIV failed because square has been much better at PR since then. Its worth noting- didnt these forums come about when FFXIV needed forums for damage control? I recall them both popping up at the same time.

[Alhanelem]

Well, their PR certainly still needs work, but it's certainly better than it used to be.

You can thank Camate for really boosting the PR scene as far as FFXI is concerned :)

[Molech]

I just love this thread, people just can't accept the fact that XI isn't and never was going be the future after the release of XIV. XIV was always the future, sure it failed pretty hard and lots of hard lessons were learned but it was always going to be the replacement and if they scrapped 14 then I'm sure 15 or whatever the next MMO FF was going to be next was in line for XI's replacement.

I would laugh if SE came out and said: "Sure we'll give you FFXI 2.0, with Producer Tanaka and all accounts wiped" then none of you would be for it. This crying and whining is over the fact that this games ending is inevitable and people put 9 years into it while never wanting to give it up while its successor who will eventually be superior in every single way is going to be the new love of the company.

Some people need to make plans to move on, sure they'll continue to update the game and give you new low drop rate carrots to chase but at the end of the day, thats all XI is going to be.

[MarkovChain]

FFXI was the "first MMO" for a lot of FF fanboys/girls. It popped their MMO cherries, so to speak. I think the nostalgia value of the game is huge for these people, and they'd flock back to it if an update were released, and FFXIV would summarily die from the loss of players.
I never understood the problem that some people have with FFXI being the first MMO they played. Someone that has played 2 or 3 other MMOs is no more entitled to express an opinion because if you dont play 1 year+ 20 hours+ a week to an MMO I doubt your are knowledgeable about the game. I think a lot of people think their comparison with other games is valid when they only played other games a few months. Call them fanboys all you want but that is what mmos players are made of . The reason wow succeeded is because it attracted all the fanboys from warcraft. A majority of their player probably only ever played one mmo too.

[Atomic_Skull]

I don't think a re-release would work for FFXI because its core systems really show their age. Craft system, skill system, terrible balance, some drop systems, UI. It really comes in before ps2 limitations as age limitations. Yes they could certainly change all of this with that sorta money- but they wont. And its not because they cant its because this team has never felt like doing that. That's there prerogative but not listening to your player base more seems silly(ex: PW till people got sick, current state of several jobs, "nobody uses Abyssea to exp" voidwatch drop distribution is fine).


Im still of the opinion in the long run its better FFXIV failed because square has been much better at PR since then. Its worth noting- didnt these forums come about when FFXIV needed forums for damage control? I recall them both popping up at the same time.


EVE is almost as old as FFXI.

People stay with FFXI because they like it's oldschool design. There is still a market for a hardcore MMO, If there wasn't FFXI wouldn't still have 300k subscribers and EVE would not have 500k.

[Atomic_Skull]

I just love this thread, people just can't accept the fact that XI isn't and never was going be the future after the release of XIV. XIV was always the future, sure it failed pretty hard and lots of hard lessons were learned but it was always going to be the replacement and if they scrapped 14 then I'm sure 15 or whatever the next MMO FF was going to be next was in line for XI's replacement.

Anyone else notice how people with opinions similar the above all have extremely low post counts?

[MarkovChain]

Ever since 2011 idiots have been saying ffxi is dying. With level 99 I think we will be busy for 1 year and after that I'll look at ffxiv v2

[Xellith]

Compare FFXI to FFXIV. I think FFXI is soaring high into the sky like an cake aeroplane with bacon wings.

[Byrth]

Compare FFXI to FFXIV. I think FFXI is soaring high into the sky like an cake aeroplane with bacon wings.

That sounds delicious, but your meaning is entirely obscured by the analogy being stupid.

[scaevola]

Call them fanboys all you want but that is what mmos players are made of . The reason wow succeeded is because it attracted all the fanboys from warcraft. A majority of their player probably only ever played one mmo too.

Well, yes and no. Granted, Warcraft has a lot of brand recognition (but more than Final Fantasy? Probably not, at least at WoW's launch), but I think the biggest factors were that it got a lot of press for being a radically more acccessible take on the well-known-but-famously-opaque MMORPG and since then it's actually taken a lot of steps to release new content very quickly and completely re-invent itself through expansions.

It may be that WoW was the first MMO for a lot of people, but that doesn't mean it was the last. WAR and AoC were propped up through huge launches by bored WoW players who were looking for something new out of the formula, were disappointed by those games' glaring and persistent flaws, and by and large returned to WoW when a new patch came out. I remember seeing the subscription numbers for WAR a few years ago; they explode at launch (9/08) and then immediately tank when Wrath of the Lich King comes out (11/08). It's hilarious.

I mean, the whole package might not be your cup of tea but you've got to admit that WoW did a lot of things differently than its forebears, took a lot of risks (a subscription-based MMORPG with an easy leveling curve and accessible endgame? Just begging for people to get bored!), and has done a lot more right than it's done wrong. It succeeded because it is a very good game, and Blizzard deserves its boats of money.

[scaevola]

People stay with FFXI because they like it's oldschool design. There is still a market for a hardcore MMO, If there wasn't FFXI wouldn't still have 300k subscribers and EVE would not have 500k.

At the risk of sounding like a fanboy, Heroic raiding in WoW is considerably more difficult than any content in FFXI right now.

Truth be told, I like both FFXI and WoW quite a bit and have alternated between them over the years, but for the past year or so I've been pretty much exclusively FFXI and it's precisely because it's so much more casual-friendly when compared to Cataclysm.