Are We Wasting Our Time?

[Selzak]

I know this isn't the first time SE has been accused of favoritism on this forum, but I feel like this needs to be discussed. I think we definitely deserve an explanation for this:

BST Poll: Vote for which jug you would like to be implemented. (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/1697-What-new-Jug-Pets-would-you-like-to-see-91-99/page53)

This vote was introduced in both the Japanese and English forums in running threads.

The Japanese thread (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/10169-%E3%81%9D%E3%82%8D%E3%81%9D%E3%82%8D%E3%82%AD%E3%83%A3%E3%83%AA%E3%83%BC%E4%BB%A5%E5%A4%96%E3%81%AB%E3%82%82%E5%9B%BA%E6%9C%89%E3%82%B0%E3%83%A9%E3%82%92%EF%BC%81/page19).
Where it was introduced on page eleven and voting continued until page eighteen.
(seven pages of votes)

The English thread (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/1697-What-new-Jug-Pets-would-you-like-to-see-91-99/page52).
Where it was introduced on page eight and voting continued until page fifty-two.
(forty-four pages of votes)


Somehow, the Japanese favorite (Hippogryph) won over the English favorite (Scorpion).

44 English pages versus 7 Japanese pages, yet their vote won out.


I took the time to count votes on both forums. If every single JP that voted had voted for Hippo NA votes for Scorp would have still beaten them. Counting votes for Slime Ruszor Scorp and Hippo from both forums it would have looked like this:

#1 Scorp
#2 Ruszor
#3 Slime
#4 Hippo

In other words the only thing that mattered at all was which won on the JP forums.


That really doesn't make much sense at all but either way it was 46-2 in the EN forums and 0-20 in the JP forums. 46-22 total.


Are we just talking to a wall here, where SE is inside talking to its Japanese players on the other side? How can they justify neglecting a large section of their paying player base in favor of "their people" or whatever it is that's going on here? Are we wasting our time? If so, should we continue doing so without a good explanation and/or a sincere apology?

If they're not listening to us (and it appears blatantly obvious that they aren't), there's no reason for us to waste our time begging them to consider our suggestions. The English forum seems like it's just a place where translations go after they've discussed things with the Japanese players. Check out the English job forums like PLD and DRK, where there are some genuinely good ideas about how to fix things- yet nobody is listening. Compare this to the Japanese SCH forum, where we get our constant SCH translations from.

Guess what? It looks like SCH is the most popular job on the Japanese forum.


This is really starting to go overboard.


edit: for accuracy


EDIT:
Obviously we're disgruntled, and I think rightfully so. However, to whoever might come here tomorrow and give us a response, I believe the following best sums up the questions that we have:

There is a problem with the communication between this board and the development team that is on a whole different level than whatever neglection the Japanese players have felt.

Are we wrong in feeling that way? If so, can you help us to understand why whatever we hear from the development team is actually just a translation of responses exclusively to Japanese posters- despite the huge threads here filled with questions that are totally different and never get a response (ex: job manifesto discussions)? Also, can you adequately explain why this situation with the BST poll isn't as blatant an example of favoritism (the development team picked the fourth choice overall, which "happened" to be the favorite of the Japanese posters?) as it seems?

If we're right* and there is some kind of issue hindering (or altogether killing) our line of communication- can you tell us where the problems lie? I don't want to believe that this is some kind of subtle racism because it just seems ridiculous to me, but the idea that we weren't shafted specifically in favor of the Japanese posters seems equally ridiculous.

The situation with this BST thing just happens to be blatant enough to warrant an actual response. Before this, one could make the argument that SE was just inadequate and lacked the ability to properly communicate with its English-speaking players or read what they were saying. Now, it's apparent that the problem goes at least a little bit deeper.

What's going on, and can we please finally begin to discuss how we might fix? I don't care if you tell me that the development team just actually hates everyone who isn't Japanese but they're sorry now- as long as there's a solution involved I think we'll all be happy with just the prospect of being heard from now on. No matter what, we just want this to be fixed. We do not care about the scorpion, we don't care about the past, we care about being heard now.


*Unless you come with some very hard evidence that we aren't, we will maintain that we are and remain very upset until you admit and address it.

[Zatias]

The BST jug also had me confused, though I had voted for Hippogryph early on. Maybe they like me. XP~

Honestly though, discrimination like this has shown itself multiple times.

[FrankReynolds]

If it makes you feel any better, I personally don't think they listen to the JP either. I think they just plan updates, then they look at the JP threads. When they find one about something that is going to be in the update, they pop in and go "HAI GUYZ! We totally listen to you. look at this cool thing we did just because you asked for it!".

[Selzak]

If it makes you feel any better, I personally don't think they listen to the JP either. I think they just plan updates, then they look at the JP threads. When they find one about something that is going to be in the update, they pop in and go "HAI GUYZ! We totally listen to you. look at this cool thing we did just because you asked for it!".
That's pretty much how I felt too before this vote was "tallied."

[Vold]

Shouldn't be too hard for someone who speaketh/read Japanese to check for themselves and tally up the votes.


I'm still trying to figure out wtf is going on. I sort followed all of this and people are like, damn Hippo won and not Scorp but yet I remember reading a vote between Ruz vs slime but yet I read "ok guys scorp won I'm informing the devs!" then the next post is "here's the winnahs, turtle/pen/hippo!" and I don't know anymore.

Edit: oh ok I see they asked for a revote on everything and not just between certain monsters. Still, "Scorp wins!" came after. Anyway.

I'll just say you are mistaken when you think we out number the JP in this game. Now, you're probably right in the sense that BST NA vastly outnumber BST JP. I can see that considering the nature of English speaking players. Just looking at the two threads speaks volumes on JP vs NA support for the BST job. Also, using lol google NA was highly in favor for Scorp and the JP were all over the place.

Maybe SE saw all the hope NA had for scorp and were like, gee wiz we should go with Hippo instead because we can't give them half of what they are wanting out of Scorpy. Maybe that's what happened. I can't see them going with the inferior support crowd that had like 3 or 4 votes in favor of Hippo that I could see in translation. Remember that they announced Scorpion had won, and we got Hippo instead. Sometimes we NA really should shut it in the name of getting what we want. Assuming this is the case, of course.

[Leonlionheart]

L2SPEAK JP

and go complain somewhere where they'll read it

[Zumi]

Who cares its bst? Not like it mattered if they went by the JP poll and not the US one. Probably were lazy and didn't want to have to tally up all the votes in the US one.

[Greatguardian]

I apologize for having to bring this up, but the Paladin forums are an absolutely terrible example of an "informed NA board". 95% of the suggestions there are epic-tier terrible and generally consist of either "YE SHALL BE AS GODS" or "Give us Provoke and moar enmity kthx".

Edit:
Who cares its bst? Not like it mattered if they went by the JP poll and not the US one. Probably were lazy and didn't want to have to tally up all the votes in the US one.

Camate tallied the NA votes. They didn't have to do anything but read his results. Apparently, they just didn't really care.

[Krashport]

Final Fantasy XIV < $$$ < Final Fantasy XI < JP Forums < US Forums.

[Yugl]

Not a BST, but I imagine it's beneficial to get your preferred pet later because you can make them level 99 at that point.

[Greatguardian]

Not a BST, but I imagine it's beneficial to get your preferred pet later because you can make them level 99 at that point.

The pets in question are set to be released with the 99 cap update, if I'm reading everything correctly.

[Selzak]

Shouldn't be too hard for someone who speaketh/read Japanese to check for themselves and tally up the votes.


I'm still trying to figure out wtf is going on. I sort followed all of this and people are like, damn Hippo won and not Scorp but yet I remember reading a vote between Ruz vs slime but yet I read "ok guys scorp won I'm informing the devs!" then the next post is "here's the winnahs, turtle/pen/hippo!" and I don't know anymore.

In the Japanese thread that I linked in the OP, you can use Google translate to see that they favored the Hippogryph.



I'll just say you are mistaken when you think we out number the JP in this game. Now, you're probably right in the sense that BST NA vastly outnumber BST JP. I can see that considering the nature of English speaking players. Just looking at the two threads speaks volumes on JP vs NA support for the BST job.
You can say whatever you want to but you're wrong (http://www.playonline.com/ff11eu/guide/development/census/10/index.html).




Maybe SE saw all the hope NA had for scorp and were like, gee wiz we should go with Hippo instead because we can't give them half of what they are wanting out of Scorpy. Maybe that's what happened. I can't see them going with the inferior support crowd that had like 3 or 4 votes in favor of Hippo that I could see in translation. Remember that they announced Scorpion had won, and we got Hippo instead. Sometimes we NA really should shut it in the name of getting what we want. Assuming this is the case, of course.
Yeah that's probably it Void-san. I bet they tend to do their maintenance for the game during the middle of the night in the Glorious Nation of Japan (while they're all asleep, which is also the game's peak log in time) to give their English-speaking friends across the ocean a rest.


What happened is that instead of tallying the votes overall, they just gave the JP what they wanted even though there were more votes for the Scorpion- and apparently they're comfortable enough with showing us the middle-finger that they don't even feel like they need to make an excuse up for it.

[Ash]

Go read the reply from camate about the lvl99/100 discussion, he even says that the japanese forums wanted lvl99, without even mentioning what was the result of what the NA/EU boards wanted, and thats just one flagrant example...

[Agetos]

I'm sure not all 44 pages were just for the scorpion. i know i voted for the hippogryph, and a lot of others voted for slime.

[Babekeke]

You can say whatever you want to but you're wrong (http://www.playonline.com/ff11eu/guide/development/census/10/index.html).

I don't understand your logic. You linked to a graph showing considerably more people online during JP prime time as proof that there are more non-JP players. Note the poll was also taken while much of Japan was still recovering from the Tsunami.

[Insaniac]

I'm sure not all 44 pages were just for the scorpion. i know i voted for the hippogryph, and a lot of others voted for slime.

I took the time to count votes on both forums. If every single JP that voted had voted for Hippo NA votes for Scorp would have still beaten them. Counting votes for Slime Ruszor Scorp and Hippo from both forums it would have looked like this:

#1 Scorp
#2 Ruszor
#3 Slime
#4 Hippo

In other words the only thing that mattered at all was which won on the JP forums.

[Zarchery]

I'm just curious, do any of you people actually enjoy the game?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I'm just curious, do any of you people actually enjoy the game?

Oh? You like getting asked something then when you answer be completely ignored for a lower majority of people just because of their country of origin? Didn't think that many people cared for pro-Racism anymore...

[Insaniac]

I'm just curious, do any of you people actually enjoy the game?
This doesn't have anything at all to do with liking the game or not.

[tyrantsyn]

You know, i'm kind of surprise any one would come on this thread and say "who cares." If given a chance to have a voice in what happens next, and than afterwards being told "well we didn't really care what you had to say, it's just what these players over here preferred". I'd be a little upset. You people spend money on this game every month just like jp players, and are no less fateful to the game. If the fact's are true, regardless of the job or topic. You people should be upset not coming on here trolling for conflict.

[Greatguardian]

To be fair, if this is what happened, I doubt Camate is very happy about it either. I don't envy the position he's been put in right now.

[Shoko]

Who cares its bst? Not like it mattered if they went by the JP poll and not the US one. Probably were lazy and didn't want to have to tally up all the votes in the US one.

I care about BST. Get out with that nonsense.

[Selzak]

I don't understand your logic. You linked to a graph showing considerably more people online during JP prime time as proof that there are more non-JP players. Note the poll was also taken while much of Japan was still recovering from the Tsunami.
JP prime time is around midnight their time? Here's the census from 2009 (http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/guide/development/census/09/index.html) if you think the Tsunami actually skewed the numbers that bad.


I'm just curious, do any of you people actually enjoy the game?
I do, and I'm even happy with the Hippogryph. I do not accept the way it was chosen though, and I don't think any English-speaking player (and especially poster on this board) should let this slide. You can put your head back in the sand now.


To be fair, if this is what happened, I doubt Camate is very happy about it either. I don't envy the position he's been put in right now.
Like I said in the other thread, I bet they try to pin this on him. He seems like the only one who attempts to include us in the discussion, and I guess that makes him treasonous, or a NAlover or something.


Think about it. The only communication we get are translations from the JP boards, posted in the most relevant place the admins can find to put it. They're completely ignoring us.


e: Turns out the population fact was true though my b.

[Ash]

Actually i think camate jobs is to pretend s-e has communication with their NA(dunno if he does EU boards too) playerbase, but when you read closely any of the community posts reps, its pretty obvious who runs the show...and its not us.


Also its not like jp favoritism is new, its been like that since day one of the game and i wouldn t be surprised that ithey wouldn t give a sh*t if all their NA/EU playerbase quit...they d still keep the game running for the japanese and laugh.

[Tohihroyu]

As I put in a drk topic:

英語プレーヤーは電機子です！あなたの愚かな質問には答えれることはありません！ w

(|Japanese|) only.
(|English|) (|head|) (|Diseased|) (|Amateur|) w

Sorry but thats how it seems to be, the Japanese will always be preferred over English speaking players, thank you xenophobia.


Yeah when I saw the results I was surprised since the scorp got lots of votes (it would make a great DD pet) but not surprised when I learned that Hippo won cause of the jp players...



Also its not like jp favoritism is new, its been like that since day one of the game and i wouldn t be surprised that ithey wouldn t give a sh*t if all their NA/EU playerbase quit...they d still keep the game running for the japanese and laugh.

And THAT would be when they actually open up those unknown but always talked about areas. "ps2 rimitations" my ass.

[Babekeke]

JP prime time is around midnight their time? Here's the census from 2009 (http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/guide/development/census/09/index.html) if you think the Tsunami actually skewed the numbers that bad.

I didn't really think that this required explaining any further, but maybe you didn't actually look at the graph yourself. The peak is from ~6pm-midninght JST. Use a straight edge to follow the line up from midnight to see that the peak is already in a steep decline by that point (somewhat ironically, this point is even more prominent in the 2009 census that you linked to further press your point!?).

Further to that, at midnight JST (in April) it's 16:00 GMT, 11:00 EST, 08:00 PST. I look forward to hearing how you claim that any of these zones are more likely to be finishing their peak times at these times of day...
Or perhaps your argument is that the majority of the non-JP players are actually based in Mumbai or Bankok?

[Yarly]

you're wasting your time. now you know, what are you going to do about it?


i wouldn t be surprised that ithey wouldn t give a sh*t if all their NA/EU playerbase quit

why don't you quit then?

[MDenham]

you're wasting your time. now you know, what are you going to do about it?Have several thousand protesters in Port Jeuno?

[Babekeke]

Have several thousand protesters in Port Jeuno?

While all the JP players run around having fun without us... I suppose /sh and /yell spam FTW?

[Helel]

I don't play BST, and I actually don't care whether BST gets scorp or hippo, however, I would like to lend my support in this matter. This bias or whatever needs to stop now before it gets worse and people stop posting here altogether. What would be funny though is for all the NA people to start posting on the JP boards.

[MDenham]

While all the JP players run around having fun without us... I suppose /sh and /yell spam FTW?Eh, more than 750 people in the same zone is enough to cause stability problems (hence the 750-people-in-Besieged limit), so they'd definitely wonder what was going on if a third of the server (or more, but I'm going off the ~2700 I normally see at most times of day for Asura) was in Port Jeuno for no reason they can see.

[Shibayama]

I'm not entirely sure of what the point of these "Ohh why waste yer time complaining about it" posts - bcause something is very clearly wrong and has been for a long time and something needs to be done about it - it would be one thing entirely (though its own problem) were we not asked at all for our feedback but one too many times feedback is asked for and then guess whose ideas are picked? It does not matter if we are or are not on more than the JP - we are a large enough majority that we have community reps assigned for us, asking for our feedback.

And trust me - the japanese never have fun with anything they consider work like ffxi - I work for them.

[Selzak]

Further to that, at midnight JST (in April) it's 16:00 GMT, 11:00 EST, 08:00 PST. I look forward to hearing how you claim that any of these zones are more likely to be finishing their peak times at these times of day...?
I won't argue over something that I'm wrong about, I'm not that stubborn. I assumed from this poll that NA outnumbered JP and it's easy for your brain to make assumptions about 0 or 1 type data (AM / PM) and curves. I stand corrected.

It doesn't change the problem with what happened though. In the case of our poll, the English forum votes vastly outnumbered the Japanese votes, and the total votes for Scorpion were much higher than the total votes for Hippogryph.

[Selzak]

you're wasting your time. now you know, what are you going to do about it?

Try to inform as many people as I can so we become loud enough to be heard, thus requiring them to acknowledge us the way that they should be already.


I don't expect my opinion to matter more than Japanese players', but I also don't expect 7 pages of Japanese players' opinions to matter more than 44 pages of English-speaking players' opinions.

Our ideas, suggestions, and certainly our votes should count just as much as theirs- or at the very least even be considered in the first place.

[Arcon]

I have an idea. Let's all suggest all our votes or ideas on the JP boards, by translating them with Google. Just make a post in English, Google translate it and post. I'm all for it.

[Shadowsong]

Several things to note:
You are talking about a JAPANESE game, BASED in Japan, STAFFED by Japanese. Even if it's not intentional, there will be favoring towards the Japanese. This is a fact of the game and hasn't changed in nearly 10 years.
Like I just said, this problem is nothing new and barely affects anything. A random BST vote (that they didn't need to give us anyway) and maintenance times? Who cares...

I wouldn't care if they blatantly told us they perferred JP over NA, since they are providing me a service I find enjoyable regardless. If "racism" was an issue for me, and I perceived this as "racism" then I suppose the way to protest would be to quit and stop giving them your money. Not run to there own forums and start whining about a decade old issue you have with it.

People need to stop acting like they are entitled to equal treatment. This isnt the US Supreme Court, its a video game THEY OWN and can do anything they want with. SE is allowed to be as racist or fair as it wants.

[Laraul]

I have an idea. Let's all suggest all our votes or ideas on the JP boards, by translating them with Google. Just make a post in English, Google translate it and post. I'm all for it.

This is a joke right? I seriously suggest you translate whatever you "translate" into Japanese back into English before posting it to understand what kind of nonsense you are going to spout.

The development team doesn't speak much (if any) English. Everything from non Japanese speaking players has to be translated by a person before they can understand it. This is time consuming process and honestly a waste of resources.

Also the vote count is meaningless. The reasons behind a decision matter more than an actual vote count. What's wrong with a Hyppoglyph. I think it makes more sense than a Scorpion.

[Arcon]

People need to stop acting like they are entitled to equal treatment. This isnt the US Supreme Court, its a video game THEY OWN and can do anything they want with. SE is allowed to be as racist or fair as it wants.

Of course they are. No one is saying we should sue them. But it's a retarded business decision on their part, and we don't have to be happy about it. These forums are for feedback, and that's why this is exactly the right place to bring this up.


This is a joke right? I seriously suggest you translate whatever you "translate" into Japanese back into English before posting it to understand what kind of nonsense you are going to spout.

Yeah, that was kinda the point. Spam nonsense in their forums that they'll have to deal with, just to waste their time. It's the most logical course of action. Duh.


Also the vote count is meaningless. The reasons behind a decision matter more than an actual vote count. What's wrong with a Hyppoglyph. I think it makes more sense than a Scorpion.

Fortunately what you think isn't worth giving two shits about. The issue is, that they disguised it as a vote. They honestly asked for our opinion. And they got it and ignored it. And the example in the OP is only one of many, although it shows quite nicely how little of a fuck SE actually gives.

If they said "fuck the playerbase, we know best" no one would be complaining. At all. A company makes games, there's nothing unusual about that. It's SE wasting our time by asking our opinion, then lying about it mattering which upsets us. They created this forum for feedback, yet ignore almost all of it. They repeatedly ask for polls, yet ignore the results of those. Another nice example is whether or not the level cap should be raised to 100 or 99. They went with 99, which I personally voted for, but the outcome of the vote was clearly saying otherwise. At least in the English forums. Then they come up with a bullshit excuse why our vote didn't matter ("because you considered the abilities you get from 50 sub instead of the level itself"), and instead of giving us another vote, they just discarded it and took the Japanese results.

It's not their way of designing games which we question, but their lie about giving us a vote in the matter. If they simply shut us out and did their own thing, or reserved forums for bug reports alone, no one would be bitching here. But this is very much bitch-worthy.

[Tennotsukai]

Maybe NA players don't get a say in anything all because of the bad things we say after changes are made? lol, probably not...but I understand you guys. There was a similar issue dealing with BLU's heavy strike if I remember correctly.

[Seriha]

Some can take their criticisms too far, sure, but extracting the kernels of truth from all the noise isn't a bad thing.

Far as the jug issue goes, I don't really see a problem why they can't add all the suggested pets, if not all at once, at least eventually.

[hiko]

I took the time to count votes on both forums. If every single JP that voted had voted for Hippo NA votes for Scorp would have still beaten them. Counting votes for Slime Ruszor Scorp and Hippo from both forums it would have looked like this:

#1 Scorp
#2 Ruszor
#3 Slime
#4 Hippo

In other words the only thing that mattered at all was which won on the JP forums.
numbers for each?
maybe hypo won with a bigger gap in jp
if scorp won with 20 more votes than hypo in NA/EU but hypo won with 21 more in jp that make hypo won by 1!

[Insaniac]

That really doesn't make much sense at all but either way it was 46-2 in the EN forums and 0-20 in the JP forums. 46-22 total.

[Insaniac]

This is a joke right? I seriously suggest you translate whatever you "translate" into Japanese back into English before posting it to understand what kind of nonsense you are going to spout.

The development team doesn't speak much (if any) English. Everything from non Japanese speaking players has to be translated by a person before they can understand it. This is time consuming process and honestly a waste of resources.

Also the vote count is meaningless. The reasons behind a decision matter more than an actual vote count. What's wrong with a Hyppoglyph. I think it makes more sense than a Scorpion.

In the case of a simple vote (ie. "scorpion") google translate would work just fine. Single JP words ussually translate very easily or you could just copy/paste from an english > jp dictionary. Also you can use google translate to find a vote by someone else and just copy/paste that. It's not really out of the question.

[Sasaraixx]

I understand that some people are frustrated, but I think there is a bit of overreacting here. I speak English and Japanese and I post in both forums. I see plenty of cases where the dev team blatantly goes against the player's request on the JP forums. If you aren't able to read both languages, I think it is really difficult for you to grasp the whole picture. (Google translate will only take you so far.) That and I think people are forgetting that the development has it's own concerns and vision as well. Also, SE is a Japanese company and they often operate quite different from what consumers in the US are used to. (Just look at the Sony debacle earlier this year).

I also took a look at the threads in question to see what all of the fuss was about. The NA thread was all over the place. Yes it had a lot more pages than the JP thread (a small part of that has to deal with the languages themselves), but you also had a lot more suggestions for different pets than the JP thread. So much so in fact that Camate had to come back in and ask you all to narrow down your choices. That didn't happen in the JP thread where Hippo was the clear winner from the outset.

There are also other considerations that people are forgetting. No where in the initial post from Camate did he guarantee that the pet with the most votes would be the one implemented. That is an assumption you are all making. The team probably looked at the results from the forums and picked the pet that they thought would most fit with the vision they have for the job heading to 99. They also had to think about how the jugs would actually be implemented and what abilities they would receive. And let's also not forget that there are probably more jugs coming in the future and Scorpion might be one of them.

And yes, there are JP players out there with really horrible opinions about NA players. I hope you realize that the reverse is true as well. Posting non-sense in the JP forums will only reinforce the stereotypes that *some* Japanese players have about us. And it won't help you with the dev team either.

I know that many of you are disappointed, but you aren't going to always going to get what you want. And I highly doubt that the dev team "didn't care about the NA votes at all." As I said, there were other considerations that went into their decision.

[Selzak]

I also took a look at the threads in question to see what all of the fuss was about. The NA thread was all over the place. Yes it had a lot more pages than the JP thread (a small part of that has to deal with the languages themselves), but you also had a lot more suggestions for different pets than the JP thread. So much so in fact that Camate had to come back in and ask you all to narrow down your choices. That didn't happen in the JP thread where Hippo was the clear winner from the outset.
Excuses, excuses. We were told that the dev team was letting us vote on which jug pet we wanted to be added, and:


I took the time to count votes on both forums. If every single JP that voted had voted for Hippo NA votes for Scorp would have still beaten them. Counting votes for Slime Ruszor Scorp and Hippo from both forums it would have looked like this:

#1 Scorp
#2 Ruszor
#3 Slime
#4 Hippo

In other words the only thing that mattered at all was which won on the JP forums.

[Zirael]

Giving people an illusion of choice, pretending that your vote matters and then ignoring the choice of majority (assuming we were all equal). Not nice.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocrisy

[Sasaraixx]

Excuses, excuses. We were told that the dev team was letting us vote on which jug pet we wanted to be added, and:

More like you seeing only what you want to see. I already made several points, which you ignored completely. If you feel this way, you should quit. I think your reaction is totally off base, but I don't understand why you would continue to play this game if you feel this way.

[Selzak]

More like you seeing only what you want to see. I already made several points, which you ignored completely. If you feel this way, you should quit. I think your reaction is totally off base, but I don't understand why you would continue to play this game if you feel this way.
You hardly made a point at all.

Our votes were more varied, so that means our winner doesn't count?

We were asked to vote on which jug pet we wanted implemented, but weren't guaranteed that anyone cared? (While the Japanese winner actually was implemented)

"You don't always get what you want."?

And finally, I see this as wrong and want an explanation for it- I should quit the game?


Your "points" are just you trying really hard not to see this for what it is.


Oh, and also:


And yes, there are JP players out there with really horrible opinions about NA players. I hope you realize that the reverse is true as well. Posting non-sense in the JP forums will only reinforce the stereotypes that *some* Japanese players have about us. And it won't help you with the dev team either.
While I'm not going to do it personally, what could it hurt? What are we getting from the dev team that we would stop getting if we upset them by disrupting their honorable Japanese purity? At the very most, they would tell the two community reps who post translations for us to stop.

[Zaknafein]

More like you seeing only what you want to see. I already made several points, which you ignored completely. If you feel this way, you should quit. I think your reaction is totally off base, but I don't understand why you would continue to play this game if you feel this way.

Yeah asking players to vote then after the votes are tallied choosing the option that received the 4th most votes makes sense to you?

You say it was because of the language barrier? When the votes were tallied, and given to the development team by the reps they somehow misunderstood that? Or they went with the Japanese favorite because the Japanese forum users were almost all behind hippo. So because that was popular on the "preferred" forum they went with it regardless of
the fact that hippo placed 4th in TOTAL votes.

There are multiple posts in that thread where people came and made an account strictly to voice their opinion on a topic they felt strongly about as evidenced by their post count of 1. Is this really the message we want to send to those players who came here, and joined the community solely for that purpose. To paying customers who for the 1st time in years (some of us upwards of 9) felt they were actually contributing to the development of a game they love.

[Alhanelem]

You know, they could have avoided this problem easily and simply by polling the japanese and everyone else seperately, and giving us two new pets, the one that won in each group. :p

[Greatguardian]

Considering the only staff reading this are likely on our side already and unable to really do much of anything, I think the only reasonably effective course of action at this point would be to have a fluent Japanese speaker translate and summarize these grievances and then post them on the JP General Discussion board and await a reply there.

It's far more effective to go to the source than put Camate in a position where he would have to translate grievances as a staff member and then wait for a translated reply, if there even is a reply given to him. My second language is French, so I'm hardly any help here personally. I know I've seen a fair number of JP second language speakers posting here though.

As for white-knighting the JP boards, that's really just ridiculous. You think the NA boards are significantly more vile than any other community forum? We're ignored because we "Whine a lot"? This is the internet. It is vile. Everybody whines, regardless of language or culture.

If the Devs really only care about JP feedback, honestly that's fine. I don't particularly care. I simply think it's horribly disingenuous to request our feedback and then promptly ignore it.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

numbers for each?
maybe hypo won with a bigger gap in jp
if scorp won with 20 more votes than hypo in NA/EU but hypo won with 21 more in jp that make hypo won by 1!

They counted them combined across the forums, Scorpion won.

Doesn't matter what way SE tries to swing this they proved in one sweet that they could care less about English players.

[Sevvy]

Square-Enix = Japanesse Company Final Fantasy (Series) = Japanesse Series that NAs enjoy playing too.

[Sickel]

This is the first time I felt obligated to create an account and post on these forums, although I read them quite regularly. I agree with the OP on this being an issue that should see some sort of response.

To those replying with answers such as "well then quit the game," is there really any need for that? I have played this game since it released in NA for PC. I have hundreds and thousands of memories and I plan to continue making those memories in the game for some time to come. However, feeling wronged when being asked to add your input to a vote tally should be a legitimate concern, and not one which is only met with the answer of "quitting the game."

Many others are confusing the reason for concern here. I don't think many are bitter over the fact that hippo was chosen over scorp in terms of the way it'll affect gameplay. We are bitter because hippo was not anywhere near being the top choice in a vote tally that spanned two different language boards. There is no legitimate excuse for hippo being selected then. It shouldn't matter that the devs favored hippo if that is true - why even take a tally then? It shouldn't matter that "NA votes were all over the place while JP seriously wanted hippo." Who cares? And then to say, "well maybe the point of the tally wasn't that the highest one would win, but just to pick one randomly!"

I don't care if scorp will be added in the future, nor that hippo was selected, per se. I do care, however, in the circumstances in which it was decided. It's clear favoritism that needs to be addressed.

Lastly, to those saying we are showing concern over this issue that has gone on for the past 10 years, I'd ask you this: how recently were we actually given the opportunity to voice our concerns via an official forum? How many years of those 10 years did we even have a way of providing feedback to the devs?

[idx1]

This is the first time I felt obligated to create an account and post on these forums, although I read them quite regularly. I agree with the OP on this being an issue that should see some sort of response.

To those replying with answers such as "well then quit the game," is there really any need for that? I have played this game since it released in NA for PC. I have hundreds and thousands of memories and I plan to continue making those memories in the game for some time to come. However, feeling wronged when being asked to add your input to a vote tally should be a legitimate concern, and not one which is only met with the answer of "quitting the game."

NA players representing, is what you're seeing there. "Too cool to care", sums up the attitude just about right.
Or, simply rotten attitudes from rotten people. God knows what will happen if these sad individuals don't have the ability to bash people behind a computer screen!


I don't care if scorp will be added in the future, nor that hippo was selected, per se. I do care, however, in the circumstances in which it was decided. It's clear favoritism that needs to be addressed.

Lastly, to those saying we are showing concern over this issue that has gone on for the past 10 years, I'd ask you this: how recently were we actually given the opportunity to voice our concerns via an official forum? How many years of those 10 years did we even have a way of providing feedback to the devs?

I wouldn't give too much credit to the 'official forums' just yet. Nowadays, prior to ten years ago, it is much, much more common and .almost. expected for a system of communication to be put in place for player feedback and 'the administration'. The administration being SE, if you missed that.

They have conformed to upgrade a level of .service.
That is what a game is nowadays, an entertainment service, like a television network. Don't like the channel? Change the channel, change the cartridge, it's all the same.

I'd have to say ten years ago, yeah they did not give a f. You walk your ass back from Valkurm to Bastok to change your job to raise your party that took an hour to just form, to disband by the time you get back. The problem is not that they didn't care, they just didn't listen - whether intentionally or otherwise.

But now they .finally. put in 'official' forums, where they can hear the players - but they don't have to listen, much less take orders from - they have projects, deadlines...things set in stone that they cannot change.

For all we know, this whole pet thing - it could of just been a mishap when dealing with two player communities, NA and JP. The Hippo could of already been set in stone, as in - already developed, wrapped and package for implementation. If I was a higher-up from the admin side, I wouldn't put a full stop on that present just to begin wrapping another one - but the player input would definitely help me know how and what to package for the next, ya dig?

In the end, do any of us .really. know what happened?
Maybe even a better question, I wonder how many posts are in the JP forums are related to "You should just quit noob".

Maybe NA comes last because they just suck more, as people.

[FrankReynolds]

Take Google translate and go read the JP forums. They whine, complain, and talk shit just like us. They rarely even have a difference of opinion from English forums. Don't be so arrogant. Japanese people can and do whine, complain, talk shit and act like douche bags just as well as everyone else.

[Sasaraixx]

Yeah asking players to vote then after the votes are tallied choosing the option that received the 4th most votes makes sense to you?

I said that no where did they communicate to you that their decision would be based entirely on the results of the poll. As I've already said, there are probably other considerations that went into their decision and that the results on the JP forum were a lot more one-sided.


You say it was because of the language barrier?

No, I never said that.


There are multiple posts in that thread where people came and made an account strictly to voice their opinion on a topic they felt strongly about as evidenced by their post count of 1. Is this really the message we want to send to those players who came here, and joined the community solely for that purpose. To paying customers who for the 1st time in years (some of us upwards of 9) felt they were actually contributing to the development of a game they love.

They are contributing to the development of the game. They asked you for your input and said they would take it into consideration when making their decision. You just didn't get the outcome you wanted this time. I just see people throwing up their hands and complaining, instead of thinking critically about this. I have no problem with people caring about a game that they love, but when you are emotional to the point of not being reasonable, then I just can't sympathize.

[Sasaraixx]

You hardly made a point at all.

Our votes were more varied, so that means our winner doesn't count?

We were asked to vote on which jug pet we wanted implemented, but weren't guaranteed that anyone cared? (While the Japanese winner actually was implemented)

"You don't always get what you want."?

And finally, I see this as wrong and want an explanation for it- I should quit the game?

Your "points" are just you trying really hard not to see this for what it is.

Ugh.

I say that you should quit not because I disagree with voicing your concerns about a game that you pay money for, but because I think you are being silly and unreasonable.

I don't understand people who cry "favoritism" every time a maintenance doesn't happen during JP peak times, despite the fact that the JP players are clearly the majority. I don't understand people who think that being asked for your opinion means that you will get exactly what you ask for and ignore the fact that the JP forums are full of complaints about the development team not listening to them either. I don't understand people who seem to forget that there are a myriad of reasons behind any decision, but instead immediately go to "it's because we're not JP!" And I don't understand people who think that their opinions don't matter because they aren't Japanese, but continue to complain about Japanese players in a Japanese game run by a Japanese development team on the forums established by a Japanese company.

I doubt you will find many people on these forums (NA, EU and JP) who are happy 100% happy with the way the development team is handling things. I know I've let my voice be heard many times. I find this thread irrational given the amount of times we've seen the dev team both listen and not listen to suggestions on these forums.

[Ackman]

I have just one thing to said :

JP onry !

[Arcon]

I doubt you will find many people on these forums (NA, EU and JP) who are happy 100% happy with the way the development team is handling things. I know I've let my voice be heard many times. I find this thread irrational given the amount of times we've seen the dev team both listen and not listen to suggestions on these forums.

You don't seem to get it. Look at the thread title. It's a simple question and as accurate as it can be. Why does it matter if they just "considered it" and discarded it, or didn't consider it and discarded it? If neither one side winning nor losing would have made a difference, it was just a waste of our time. And don't even dare to say that our results may just not have been decisive enough, because if a 2-to-1 vote isn't significant, then nothing on here ever will be, and these polls are completely useless, and thus again a waste of our time.

That being said, they have been dishonest with us a lot. They lied straight to our faces, time and again. They did act preferential on the Japanese side a lot, regardless of whether or not this BST example qualifies. My example from the Lv99 vs. Lv100 thread still stands. At one point, they announce the results, and afterwards, after we've complained that our votes clearly indicated otherwise, they tell us why our votes were discarded ("because you looked at the abilities you'd gain from Lv50 sub instead of actually debating over Lv100"). That means they did recognize that our votes didn't count, and came upw ith a bullshit excuse for it. If you wanna keep on defending that, go right ahead and feel proud of yourself. Fact is, they're dishonest and they're wasting our time. Hence, this thread is perfectly justified.

[Alhanelem]

I don't agree with that 'dishonest with us a lot' bit, but I do agree that in this case, it was handled wrong. Why bother asking us if they're not going to factor it in?

[Selzak]

Just another point I'd like to make: My first choice was the Opo-opo, and I think I'd actually prefer the Hippogryph to the Scropion. This is not at all the issue, and if you think that we're just whining because we want our Scorpion then you are missing the point to a ridiculous extent.

[Laraul]

It's not their way of designing games which we question, but their lie about giving us a vote in the matter. If they simply shut us out and did their own thing, or reserved forums for bug reports alone, no one would be bitching here. But this is very much bitch-worthy.

I have two words that need to be said. Grow Up.

[Zaknafein]

I have two words that need to be said. Grow Up.

If you really want to simplify this issue down to 2 words it seems to me that paying customers are being told.

Bend over.

[Selzak]

I imagine we'll get some response along the lines that the decision was made independently by the development team and that no favoritism is involved (they just happened to pick the fourth-favorite choice overall and Japanese favorite, coincidence!) and maybe even go as far as adding the Scorpion to appease us.

I'll say it now, I don't care about the Scorpion. I want an explanation or an apology, and some acknowledgement of the real issue. Best-case scenario for me is that they admit they haven't been paying enough (any) attention to this board and they start. That doesn't mean they should give PLDs their HOLIEST WARRIOR Invincible-ga ability that some 16-year old asked for, but that they should pay equal attention to their players regardless of what language they speak. If there's a 90 page thread on the Job Manifesto in the English forum and a 20 page thread on the Job Manifesto in the Japanese forum, I don't want to see a response in our thread that says "Answers to your feedback, keep it coming!" that exclusively responds to feedback from the Japanese thread.

That's the main sentiment in the OP, and I believe it's the sentiment of most people here- the situation with this BST thing just happens to be blatant enough to warrant an actual response. Before this, one could make the argument that SE was just inadequate and lacked the ability to properly communicate with with its English-speaking players or read what they were saying. Now, it's apparent that the problem goes at least a little bit deeper.



As has been stated before, I think we should be careful not to misplace the blame on this problem. We really only have contact with two community reps, and it seems like all they're here to do is provide translations for us. I have a very strong feeling that we tend to get pushed outside of the circle via them, not because of them. Especially with Camate, it seems like he did all he could early on and finally just gave up- and I hope no one makes the mistake of blaming him for sharing the poll with us in the first place if our votes weren't going to make a difference. I believe that, like us, Camate genuinely thought out votes would matter, and was probably as dismayed as we are now when he shared our results with a development team that didn't care.

"Hopefully" this is just a very big structural problem, but this whole debacle calls that into question and makes us wonder what kind of attitudes the people we're giving our money to and trying to communicate with actually have towards us. This is what we want an answer to, and (at least on my part) it's coming from a very genuine place.

[Camiie]

For the longest time, SE seemed to have a policy of ignoring or dismissing pretty much anything the players had to say. They were aloof, stubborn, and arrogant. Then, suddenly, they started listening. They started reacting. The very things people were asking for started to be implemented. Adjustments and tweaks were made based on player feedback. What a marked improvement that was. I guess all good things must come to an end though.

Now... in this case they're outright lying to us? That's more than just a snapback to the old ways. This is even worse than when they apparently thought the player base had nothing constructive to offer. It's a step beyond dismissive. Just how stupid and worthless do they think we are?

You can fix this though, SE. I'd be shocked if you did, but you can. And this isn't directed specifically at you, Camate. It's SE as a whole.

Apologize first and foremost. Eat your piece of humble pie. You're big boys and girls. You're professionals. You can take the criticism and admit you were wrong. I don't care whether it was a mistake, a miscommunication, or a purposeful act. You screwed up and you should be sorry. If not, as some players like to suggest to one another, you should quit. That may be harsh, but unlike some people in this thread, I don't let companies as large as SE get off with very many excuses. SE has done too many great things in the past to make me expect anything less than the best of you at all times. You all set the standard. Live up to it.

Secondly, the the scorpion should now be implemented along with the other "winners". I seriously doubt that this is some terrible hardship for you, but even if it is it needs to be done. To be honest, I don't see why you didn't just add it in the first place. Interest has been shown for scorpion and other type pets for a very long time. You at SE aren't stupid or blind and neither are we the players. Now, start acting like it.

[Shibayama]

Oh I'm almost certain there will be no apology at all from SE - if they even choose to acknowledge this, it'll most likely be a response saying how "Well while the votes may have been higher, we thought that the *rationale* behind the hippogriph was just better so we decided to implement that based on the current status of available pets" Or something.

This seems to be commonplace with big japanese gaming companies though. Capcom's excuse for why Megaman wasn't in MvC3 was that he "didn't get enough requests to make the cut into the game" - and yet obscure characters like Firebrand and Rocket Raccoon were...

Hmm...

[Selzak]

Oh I'm almost certain there will be no apology at all from SE - if they even choose to acknowledge this, it'll most likely be a response saying how "Well while the votes may have been higher, we thought that the *rationale* behind the hippogriph was just better so we decided to implement that based on the current status of available pets" Or something.

This seems to be commonplace with big japanese gaming companies though. Capcom's excuse for why Megaman wasn't in MvC3 was that he "didn't get enough requests to make the cut into the game" - and yet obscure characters like Firebrand and Rocket Raccoon were...

Hmm...
I guess it's just a trait they picked up from American companies, but the subtlety of our corporate bullshit was lost in translation.

[Olor]

I couldn't even believe that hippo won, given the fact no one I saw really voted for it.

[Olor]

Also the vote count is meaningless. The reasons behind a decision matter more than an actual vote count. What's wrong with a Hyppoglyph. I think it makes more sense than a Scorpion.

Do you even play bst? How does it "make more sense" - and which vermin jug do you usually use? Cause there are so many awesome vermin jugs amirite?

[Shadowsong]

Dude I'm still not understanding why you made this thread.
SE has the RIGHT to be favor Japanese people. They can favor one legged prostitutes if they wanted.
Is this problem enough of a concern for you to boycott the game?
If it's not, then you should maybe just be quiet and keep playing. It's not like the Japanese pay less, have instant warps to anywhere they want, get all the drops they need, and never die.
You need to reevaluate what's important to you in the game, and what's not. And if you feel so strongly as to write for 8 pages, countering everyone's well written arguments with jack-assery, than maybe it IS time to quit, because there seems to be other issues you have with the game as well.

On a side note, if Hippo turns out to be a DD version of ladybug, its gonna be the best pet ever created

[Laraul]

Do you even play bst? How does it "make more sense" - and which vermin jug do you usually use? Cause there are so many awesome vermin jugs amirite?

Actually no I don't. I do beleive the Scorpion model is too large for a Jug... where as the Hippoglyph is a better sized. To elaberate too big = bad for game play. I think that's what the decision boiled down too. Better game play mechanics. Not favoritism.

[Zagen]

Actually no I don't. I do beleive the Scorpion model is too large for a Jug... where as the Hippoglyph is a better sized. To elaberate too big = bad for game play. I think that's what the decision boiled down too. Better game play mechanics. Not favoritism.
But the small Adamantoise model isn't too big? >.> its bigger than most scorpion models. Your logic is flawed.

I'm annoyed and irked by this (the having a vote and ignoring it) but honestly not surprised.

[Shadowsong]

Actually no I don't. I do beleive the Scorpion model is too large for a Jug... where as the Hippoglyph is a better sized. To elaberate too big = bad for game play. I think that's what the decision boiled down too. Better game play mechanics. Not favoritism.

Have you even seen ChopsueyChucky?
I'll go with the benefit of the doubt though and assume you meant "too big = bad for NEW gameplay"

[Ethalio]

just checked german forum: the majority of german speaking players favor Hippogryph. I will count it later today, but need to go to university now.

[Camiie]

Dude I'm still not understanding why you made this thread.
SE has the RIGHT to be favor Japanese people. They can favor one legged prostitutes if they wanted.


Yeah, they have the right to do ignore, favor, and lie to whoever they want. We have the right to call them out on it too. When you exercise your rights and privileges, or do anything really, you have to accept the possible consequences of doing so.

[saevel]

Tanaka is back in charge, or at least no longer in the shame corner. The guy who actually wanted the English Forums listened to has been moved to FFXIV. Basically the current boss has no desire to even read what we write, much less to actually listen.

[Sickel]

A clue for the clueless, as much as it can be simplified: this topic has nothing to do with hippo over scorp, which one is better, and whether getting hippo has made us happy in our pants or not. That debate can be found for many more pages over in the actual poll where our opinions were, you know, taken into account. This topic is about recognizing whether our opinions, in topics such as that, are really worth even being considered in a poll, since, well, the results don't really seem to show them to be. And the real shocker is that these kinds of concerns aren't just limited to this specific time and place. You don't have to be a butt-hurt BST to feel a bit concerned, or at least intrigued by how the selection of hippo came to be, since this kind of behavior has happened in the past, and without some kind of feedback could easily happen in the future.

[Selzak]

Dude I'm still not understanding why you made this thread.
SE has the RIGHT to be favor Japanese people. They can favor one legged prostitutes if they wanted.
Is this problem enough of a concern for you to boycott the game?

It may be enough of a problem for me to quit, which is why I'm trying to better understand it. That's a curious use of the word boycott, you don't seem to be able to comprehend things outside of the context of the U.S. government or something. This has nothing to do with the law. Do you know that SE also has the right to ban you for no reason at all? It's in the ToS. I'm sure if they randomly banned you for absolutely no reason at all you wouldn't complain though- you can't sue them, so it's ok and shouldn't be discussed!


If it's not, then you should maybe just be quiet and keep playing.
You are good at arguing. Why should I do that?



And if you feel so strongly as to write for 8 pages, countering everyone's well written arguments with jack-assery, than maybe it IS time to quit, because there seems to be other issues you have with the game as well.
I've counted three people, including you, who have disagreed with what this thread set out to recognize. Only one of them (definitely not you) attempted to make logical arguments. I feel strongly enough about anything to call people out on bad arguments, and it's just because I appreciate honest debates and get irritated when people make bad arguments (on whatever side). This is why I hate (but closely follow) politics and am rather susceptible to trolling if it's clever enough.

[Babekeke]

I was under the impression that the whole point in offering hippo was due to there being no bird-family jugs... then they come out with Apkallu and go with the minority vote of hippo anyway...

Maybe I missed something in the reasoning though, my BST was Maat only.

[deces]

I think SE should give us all of the top Five most voted Jugs. This action would quil all our flames.

[Greatguardian]

I think SE should give us all of the top Five most voted Jugs. This action would quil all our flames.

Not really, considering the issue has nothing to do with jugs.

[Shadowsong]

It may be enough of a problem for me to quit, which is why I'm trying to better understand it. That's a curious use of the word boycott, you don't seem to be able to comprehend things outside of the context of the U.S. government or something. This has nothing to do with the law. Do you know that SE also has the right to ban you for no reason at all? It's in the ToS. I'm sure if they randomly banned you for absolutely no reason at all you wouldn't complain though- you can't sue them, so it's ok and shouldn't be discussed!

US Government? What? Where is that coming from? Also sueing a game company for violating their ToS? God, I really hope there is no one in this world who cares enough about this that they would attempt something like that.
Would I be happy if I got banned for no reason? no. Do they have the right to do so? yes. Would I whine on a forum? no.

What is there to understand? This treatment has been going on for nearly a decade.

The simple fact of the matter is: you pay a company to provide a service. If you are happy with the service you keep paying. If you are unhappy you can attempt to change it. When a problem has been going on for EIGHT YEARS and theres zero chance of it changing, you quit. This is logic a 7 year old understands.

[deces]

Not really, considering the issue has nothing to do with jugs.
You do understand this tread was started because of Pet jugs dont you?

[noodles355]

You do understand this tread was started because of Pet jugs dont you?Pet jugs were used as an example of the problem this topic addresses. It is not about pet jugs specifically.

[Vivik]

I'm not surprised that the Dev team does not take the English speaking community seriously. This thread is a perfect example of how most of the forum posters here act. Someone make a thread with sincerity and gets trolled to hell.

I hope for the game sake they never take this community seriously with any suggestions.

[Greatguardian]

You do understand this tread was started because of Pet jugs dont you?

You did read the thread, right? Like, even the first post? It's absolutely not about the jugs themselves. No one cares if they add Scorpion, or Hippo, or Walrus. The grievance that the thread is airing is that a vote from all regions was asked for, and the subsequent results from Non-JP regions were seemingly ignored.


I'm not surprised that the Dev team does not take the English speaking community seriously. This thread is a perfect example of how most of the forum posters here act. Someone make a thread with sincerity and gets trolled to hell.

I hope for the game sake they never take this community seriously with any suggestions.

The JP, EU, and Cthulu regions really aren't any better. The internet is the internet, people are people. That will always be true, regardless of language or geographical background.

[Babekeke]

The JP, EU, and Cthulu regions really aren't any better. The internet is the internet, people are people. That will always be true, regardless of language or geographical background.

OK, you'll have to give me a clue... I googled Cthulu region and all I got was fictional.

[Greatguardian]

OK, you'll have to give me a clue... I googled Cthulu region and all I got was fictional.

That's the joke.

[deces]

You did read the thread, right? Like, even the first post? It's absolutely not about the jugs themselves. No one cares if they add Scorpion, or Hippo, or Walrus. The grievance that the thread is airing is that a vote from all regions was asked for, and the subsequent results from Non-JP regions were seemingly ignored.



The JP, EU, and Cthulu regions really aren't any better. The internet is the internet, people are people. That will always be true, regardless of language or geographical background.

And that grievance is that who ever is not getting the pet jug they wanted.

[Olor]

And that grievance is that who ever is not getting the pet jug they wanted.

No - the grevience is they asked for player feedback, and then ignored all feedback that wasn't from JP region. If you don't want to discuss the issue, please start a new thread about jugs. Thanks.

[deces]

No - the grevience is they asked for player feedback, and then ignored all feedback that wasn't from JP region. If you don't want to discuss the issue, please start a new thread about jugs. Thanks.
I did disscus the issue tyvm. In that if they just gave us the top 5 most voted jugs the problem would be solved. and this whole notion that they dont care about what this or that block of people want is and has been obvious from the start of the game just look at this fourm, take all these questions we post every day and only one or two ever get a response in a week.. and mostly really dumber reponses to an even dumber question at that... Yeah we are all wasting our time is that shocking or something new to anyone?

[Shadowsong]

I'm not surprised that the Dev team does not take the English speaking community seriously. This thread is a perfect example of how most of the forum posters here act. Someone make a thread with sincerity and gets trolled to hell.

I hope for the game sake they never take this community seriously with any suggestions.

No, he made a thread about stupidity. You think critiques are trolling?
"That word, I do not think it means what you think it means"

You post a controvercial topic, you will get this type of reponse no matter what "community" you are in.
But then again, Im just trolling, right?
Welcome to the Internet, where no one cares if you scream

[Camiie]

[QUOTE=deces;214077]I did disscus the issue tyvm. In that if they just gave us the top 5 most voted jugs the problem would be solved. /QUOTE]


The problem will be solved when they don't lie to us anymore. The problem will be solved when they consider every region's input to be just as important as the JP region. You get it now?

[Volkai]

That really doesn't make much sense at all but either way it was 46-2 in the EN forums and 0-20 in the JP forums. 46-22 total.

What about in the French and German forums? Did you tally those votes up?



You don't seem to get it. Look at the thread title. It's a simple question and as accurate as it can be. Why does it matter if they just "considered it" and discarded it, or didn't consider it and discarded it?

Here, let me answer this: You have a chance of influencing decisions when you give your input. NOT a guarantee but a chance. Would you rather give input a hundred times and influence one out of a hundred decisions, or give input zero times and influence zero out of a hundred decisions?



I don't agree with that 'dishonest with us a lot' bit, but I do agree that in this case, it was handled wrong. Why bother asking us if they're not going to factor it in?
What makes you think it wasn't factored in? As previously mentioned, other factors aside from player's votes may have altered the decision.

[Vivik]

No, he made a thread about stupidity. You think critiques are trolling?
"That word, I do not think it means what you think it means"


I didn't say every response was trolling. But there are quite a few. Nice try at taking my words out of context to make your point though. Another "welcome to the internet" for me, right?

[Volkai]

Also, community team response on this topic:

For those of you who voted for scorpion, I understand your disappointment. However, please realize that though this was the number one pick for EN players, this selection was based off of all regions. Also, please keep in mind that the dev. team needs to consider all aspects of potential implementation and therefore has to make the final call themselves.

Trust me when I say that your feedback is not a waste of time and you are not being ignored. I make sure that your opinions are properly conveyed to the development as best as I can and I continue to work with them, following up when necessary, to bring them updates and any new suggestions you have.

[Selzak]

The simple fact of the matter is: you pay a company to provide a service. If you are happy with the service you keep paying. If you are unhappy you can attempt to change it. When a problem has been going on for EIGHT YEARS and theres zero chance of it changing, you quit. This is logic a 7 year old understands.
Oh, so you agree with the thread but you're just one of those types of people.

1. We haven't had an official forum throughout this time.
2. I see this as an opportunity (through the obvious nature of what happened) to have the problem acknowledged.
3. If you think we're just screwed and that they'll never care, why are you arguing with us so much? Do you see the irony in you posting all over this thread arguing that there's no point in us arguing?


Because everyone has been asking, and it's a very valid question:

The French forum didn't have any votes, the German thread had about 1 page of votes and I believe there were four votes for the Hippogryph. The results are the same as has been posted.


So in other words, when Camate said, "Sorry you didn't get the Scorpion guys, but we had to listen to everyone!" he was very off-base and I'm pretty disappointed about that, because I would have expected him (et tu, Bruté?) at least to have a grasp of the situation.

We still have not gotten a satisfactory response to the issue, since no one has acknowledged that there were three other jugs with more overall votes than the Hippogryph. Camate did mention that we weren't being ignored, and as far as he is concerned I believe him- sometimes it's possible to forget that 90% of the "devs" that post here are our busy community rep Camate. I just wish he'd acknowledge the problem we've brought up and answer it- which would really require him bringing it to the development team directly I think.

Apologizing that we didn't get the scorpion since it was the EN winner, pretending like it wasn't the overall winner (it was the hippogryph that only won locally and not overall- yet it was chosen), and treating us like we're just upset that we didn't get what we voted for is very disingenuous.

The issue is that the Japanese players actually got what they voted for locally without out-voting what everyone else wanted. If the Hippogryph would have won overall (and not been fourth), this thread wouldn't exist and no one would really care. Now we have to ask why it happened the way it did.

The question remains:

Why did the development team choose the Japanese favorite despite it being the fourth overall pick? What happened to the three choices that had more overall votes than the hippogryph?

[Eurell]

People keep saying throughout this thread that there may have been other reasons that they didn't choose scorpion. Stuff like its TP moves having to be nerfed and stuff like that. My question would be, why did they let us vote on mobs that they wouldn't implement? This thread is absolutely right, why ask for our votes if they ignore it.

[Shadowsong]

Well according to Cremate it was the other regions as well that were included.
Biggest whoosh ever that the guy screaming unfair treatment didnt consider the European + other forums?

[Selzak]

Well according to Cremate it was the other regions as well that were included.
Biggest whoosh ever that the guy screaming unfair treatment didnt consider the European + other forums?
Apparently you aren't paying much attention.

There were four Hippogryph votes on the German forum, zero votes on the French forum. That doesn't change anything at all.

[Puck]

Well according to Cremate it was the other regions as well that were included.
Biggest whoosh ever that the guy screaming unfair treatment didnt consider the European + other forums?

If you'd have actually read any of this thread you'd see that, counting ALL regions, scorpion still won and Hippogryph was 4th. So the whoosh here is over you.

[noodles355]

What about in the French and German forums? Did you tally those votes up?I just did.
French forums: 0 voted on everything. Not a single vote. Sauce: "Suggestions for the future of Bst (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/13090-Suggestions-pour-le-futur-du-BST)
German forums: 5 Hippo, 3 Orobon, 2 Ironclad (lulz), 1 Scorp, 1 Chigoe, 1 Chloris, 1 Opo-opo Sauce: Which new pet should Beastmaster get? (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/14516-%2AUmfrage%2A-Welches-neue-Haustier-f%C3%BCr-euren-Bestienb%C3%A4ndiger)
That brings the total score accross all forum'd nations to... 47-27. Accross all nations the scorpion won by twenty votes. You can vote for whoever you want as long as you vote for us.

In mother russia, Pet charms you.

[noodles355]

Also, yes, I just called SE communist. What of it?

[Vivik]

What are the percentages per region? Thinking they did not go off of votes total but maybe percentage per region? Idk...

[noodles355]

41% of germans voted Hippo, 8% of germans voted Scorpion.
0% of french voted Hippo, 0% of french voted Scorpion.
I didn't count the total number of votes for the japanese and english votes, Insaniac can answer those ones for you.

The only logical response they have is saying "We took each regions winner, and tallied the 4 winners" which would come as 2 votes for Hippo and 1 Vote for Scorp (And one vote for N/A) - However, this choice is completely rediculous concidering that the majority of the posting playerbase, by a significant margin, supported the Scorpion. They can justify this all they want but the simple fact is that one of two things happened:
They took the results from the JP Forum, and ignored everyone else.
They had already made up their minds and made a pretend poll to apease the playerbase.

Both of these options are equally appalling, and SE as a company should be ashamed of themselves. Pride is a big thing for Japanese companies, do they realise how much they are embarrasing themselves and how much credability with the western world they are losing?
Also, do you know what is happening right now? I would bet a lot of money on this: Camate and Beyhonne have made comments in their staff forum (which was admitted to exist in Tanaka's post earlier) saying "The english are unhappy" and "They have proven the results aren't accurate" but have been met with absolute silence. You've seen Camate's posts, he reads most of everything, and so doe Bayhonne, they even go as far as responding to jokes and followup questions if they have the answers. But they haven't made a single comment. Know why? Because the messengers have been given nothing by HQ. SE are burrying their heads in the sand and denying the existence of any discontent.

[Insaniac]

I can't answer that actually. I threw away the paper I tallied on =P.

I think right now they are in the "Let's just see if this goes away" phase. I wonder what kind of post count we would need to get Tanaka to pop in here and say "SO SOLLY!"

[Lokithor]

You know, I'm not too opinionated one way or another, although I do tend to get prickly when people don't listen to me or, worse, pretend to when they are actually ignoring me. But I don't mind being devil's advocate every now and then, so here goes.

Maybe SE is being truly democratic! Representation by population (a popular concept in USA I'm told). 100% of the player base that represents 2-3 times as many players / subscribers as NA voted for Hippo. Weighting and all ya know.

[FrankReynolds]

You know, I'm not too opinionated one way or another, although I do tend to get prickly when people don't listen to me or, worse, pretend to when they are actually ignoring me. But I don't mind being devil's advocate every now and then, so here goes.

Maybe SE is being truly democratic! Representation by population (a popular concept in USA I'm told). 100% of the player base that represents 2-3 times as many players / subscribers as NA voted for Hippo. Weighting and all ya know.

In the US, the largest Portion of the vote with about 45% not voting at all, is people who chose not to vote for any of the laws / candidates. Where is my anarchy?

[Sickel]

Based on Camate's feedback and after thinking things over myself, the only straightforward answer seems to be that they took the winner from each region and used that in considering a vote. Thus, hippo would have "won" 2:1, although technically, scorp would have also "won" in terms of physical votes by a 20 vote margin.

Why would they set it up that way? Well, let's consider this: the Japanese player base accounts for the largest playing population in the game. I think we would all agree on that. And so if you were designing a system where you'd want to poll each region's opinions, it might be fair to think, "well hey, if the Japanese vote in proportion to their playing population, things might be biased in a Japanese favor." It might be safe to assume, then, that going by the majority of votes for each region, regardless of their player base, would give each region a fair representation.

Instead, it seems to play out quite differently. The Japanese didn't vote nearly as much as English users, while the Germans voted the least, next to the French, of course, who didn't even cast a vote. Looking at things from this perspective, yes, it's a bummer that despite having over 20 more votes than hippo, scorp was still not selected. (Not because of who was chosen, but because of the circumstances, in case that isn't already crystal clear for some of the slower readers by this point). However, I hope it might quell some of this JP favoritism rage that's starting to develop. After all, it's not the Japanese who this is targeted at, if anything, it would have been at the devs.

[MDenham]

People in English-speaking areas love to vote about things that don't matter.

Hence, American Idol and The X Factor.

[Greatguardian]

People in English-speaking areas love to vote about things that don't matter.

Hence, American Idol and The X Factor.

Because Japan doesn't have Idols?

[Alhanelem]

I'd like to address the topic title slightly humorously: Are we wasting our time?

Yes, we are. We're playing an MMO. They specifically exist to waste our time.

[Tsuneo]

I'd like to address the topic title slightly humorously: Are we wasting our time?

Yes, we are. We're playing an MMO. They specifically exist to waste our time.
More like life exists to waste time before we die.

[Risae]

(disclaimer: I am not mocking the Japanese pronunciation, I am a student of the language and find the 'jokes' regarding their L and R pronunciations to be more accurate than a form of ridicule, and I am not saying that they cannot pronounce L if necessary)

Did you rearry think we would not be heard? We were heard! We were heard as one, with the voices of many, but just one, that's why! Because we are many voices with one face! Many voices with one vote!

But we do not forgive. We do not forget.

In short...

WE ARE REGION!

[Xellith]

Are we wasting our time?

If the voidwatch post is anything to go by - then yes.

[Volkai]

In the US, the largest Portion of the vote with about 45% not voting at all, is people who chose not to vote for any of the laws / candidates. Where is my anarchy?

It's on Telnet.


I'd like to address the topic title slightly humorously: Are we wasting our time?

Yes, we are. We're playing an MMO. They specifically exist to waste our time.

And Tahngarthor wins the thread. Or he would, if it was a competition of some sort.

[noodles355]

I always found the japaneses' dificulty with S and TH (Eg Mouth and Mouse) much more funny than L and R whilst I was living out there.

[hiko]

live in any no-english speaking country and people have difficultys with TH and S.

[Razziel]

3. If you think we're just screwed and that they'll never care, why are you arguing with us so much? Do you see the irony in you posting all over this thread arguing that there's no point in us arguing?[/B]

This was exactly what I was thinking while reading through the thread. Apparently arguing with people about a game you don't find worthy enough of arguing if they decided to ban you tomorrow for no reason is time better spent.

Can you say BS? I'm going to go out on a limb and say if a player bothers activating their account for the forums, you probably have some time invested in the game and your character (it's an mmo ffs). And that you would care.

I've seen this a lot in the forums. Players bring up well thought out, well written legitimate concerns, and they get trolled with the same responses from people that want them to conform to it's flaws/issues or the terri-bad communication between devs and the community. A healthy debate of opposing opinions is great. But telling people to shut up for voicing their opinions isn't the way to a better gaming experience.

[Cowardlybabooon]

They took the JP button away when they added Abyssea. They didn't announce it, but they did it. It's really all we could ask for, now any favoritism is just throwing them a bone.

[Nakts]

should have played phantasy star universe... they were so blatant with japanese favoritism the entire us population spoke out against it and our servers were promptly shut down

[CapriciousOne]

I'm just curious, do any of you people actually enjoy the game?

I dont think the point is whether or not we like the game or not because either way it wouldnt matter because that still would get ignored in favor of the input of other countries. The argument could be made that if SE put a poll asking just that "Do you enjoy the game?" as you proposed that even with 100,000 NA users voting YES and only like 20,000 JA users voting NO this game would effectively be shut down bc of JA input being more valued than the NA forums. The fact that you cant pick up on that is beyond me. Even if a person likes a game that doesnt mean that arent things one feel can make the game even better than before. No game developed is ever perfect but that doesnt mean that depsite its imperfections that people dont like it. In addition just because a game is imperfect doesnt mean you should sit around and accept it and not try to improve upon it. For people with low self-esteem this concept of not settling may be hard to grasp but effort should definitely be made. LOL

[Antipika]

should have played phantasy star universe... they were so blatant with japanese favoritism the entire us population spoke out against it and our servers were promptly shut down

Always been like that for SEGA. Teams are not even working together and server are separated for a reason. However you cannot say that JP had it all on PSU, they had Guardian Cash while SEGA didn't implement it on our side because NA/EU players were hostile to microtransactions. Servers got then shut down due to the lack of revenue in NA/EU, that's about it.

Now back to XI, what people have a hard time to understand is that even if there is less voters on the JP forum, subscription wise, JP players are still the biggest part of the pie. Hence why SE is more listening to them, rather than EU/NA.

Just deal with it. If subscription breakdown was 70% NA/EU vs 30% JP, things would be different.

[FrankReynolds]

Always been like that for SEGA. Teams are not even working together and server are separated for a reason. However you cannot say that JP had it all on PSU, they had Guardian Cash while SEGA didn't implement it on our side because NA/EU players were hostile to microtransactions. Servers got then shut down due to the lack of revenue in NA/EU, that's about it.

Now back to XI, what people have a hard time to understand is that even if there is less voters on the JP forum, subscription wise, JP players are still the biggest part of the pie. Hence why SE is more listening to them, rather than EU/NA.

Just deal with it. If subscription breakdown was 70% NA/EU vs 30% JP, things would be different.

I'm still looking for a link to the data that shows JP Players outnumbering all else. Let me know if you find it.

Edit: regardless of how many JP players there are, Racism = bad.

[SpankWustler]

Because Japan doesn't have Idols?

http://www.sweetslyrics.com/images/img_gal/21760_Berryz_Koubou.jpg

...


...


...


...

That creepy image contributed nothing to this topic, but I could not resist. Feel the stare of a half-dozen women dressed as twelve year old girls burn into you.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Always been like that for SEGA. Teams are not even working together and server are separated for a reason. However you cannot say that JP had it all on PSU, they had Guardian Cash while SEGA didn't implement it on our side because NA/EU players were hostile to microtransactions. Servers got then shut down due to the lack of revenue in NA/EU, that's about it.

Now back to XI, what people have a hard time to understand is that even if there is less voters on the JP forum, subscription wise, JP players are still the biggest part of the pie. Hence why SE is more listening to them, rather than EU/NA.

Just deal with it. If subscription breakdown was 70% NA/EU vs 30% JP, things would be different.

When you can prove that you can post that. You can not, so stop acting like you speak backed up by fact!

[Olor]

yeah I somehow doubt JPN subs outnumber all other regions combined.

[Greatguardian]

That creepy image contributed nothing to this topic, but I could not resist. Feel the stare of a half-dozen women dressed as twelve year old girls burn into you.

12 in Japan?

Middle Aged.

[SpankWustler]

12 in Japan?

Middle Aged.

Not going to lie...I started looking for a picture of a Idol dressed as a ten-year-old, but any image I could find with pig-tails or any other symbol of prepubescence contained too much nudity for this forum. After a while, I felt too creeped out to continue and settled for middle-school uniforms.

[Karumac]

Looks to me like people have been confusing opinion polls for votes.

[Zerich]

I know this isn't the first time SE has been accused of favoritism on this forum, but I feel like this needs to be discussed. I think we definitely deserve an explanation for this:

BST Poll: Vote for which jug you would like to be implemented. (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/1697-What-new-Jug-Pets-would-you-like-to-see-91-99/page53)

This vote was introduced in both the Japanese and English forums in running threads.

The Japanese thread (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/10169-%E3%81%9D%E3%82%8D%E3%81%9D%E3%82%8D%E3%82%AD%E3%83%A3%E3%83%AA%E3%83%BC%E4%BB%A5%E5%A4%96%E3%81%AB%E3%82%82%E5%9B%BA%E6%9C%89%E3%82%B0%E3%83%A9%E3%82%92%EF%BC%81/page19).
Where it was introduced on page eleven and voting continued until page eighteen.
(seven pages of votes)

The English thread (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/1697-What-new-Jug-Pets-would-you-like-to-see-91-99/page52).
Where it was introduced on page eight and voting continued until page fifty-two.
(forty-four pages of votes)


Somehow, the Japanese favorite (Hippogryph) won over the English favorite (Scorpion).

44 English pages versus 7 Japanese pages, yet their vote won out.






Are we just talking to a wall here, where SE is inside talking to its Japanese players on the other side?

Of course, they only have their Japanese language fans/player-base in favor. I think their "official youtube" says it all.

[Insaniac]

I was just looking at that. WTF is fellow TV? I hope that is some fan produced thing cause if they are spending dev money on that garbage someone needs to burned at the stake.

[Koroma]

I voted for ruszor i was quite surprised it didnt win im guessing not enough ppl have fought a real ruszor (lolsedna dosent count) but seeing as the vote didnt matter guess it was for the best.

[Sharnak]

I suggest to Mod, next time you want player to vote, PLEASE MAKE POLL TOPICS! that make everyone any lanauge can vote on the same poll.
and limited it 1 vote per 1 account that will reflex real need form all player all server, since we any lanauge all play on same server so it's mostly fair to just use same poll. so it's will be fair play, not just say "since group 1 want A, group 2 want B, group 3 want C, group 4 want A so is A win", no matter how many vote was count in each group... since 1+4 may only total 20 vote for all and B may 150 vote... and you hope ppl who vote for B will just accept...

Actually i'm not vote for Scrop, i vote for ruzor, and I think Hippo is not bad at all form i try, but i think it's just not fair to use this way to poll.

[Xpress]

Final Fantasy XIV < $$$ < Final Fantasy XI < JP Forums < US Forums.

I agree with this priority and its BS. FFXIV is still crap and if they were to do a overhaul of anything it should be FFXIV should just be new area's for FFXI. Like an upgrade and or expantion into one game that needs to be unlocked and not used by PS2 players. Either way I'm sure with the number of responses that come from the english forums this game should cater to NA over any other region. I barley see JP players on anymore (at least in Valefor) And im on normally during JP primetime playing.

[Alhanelem]

I agree with this priority and its BS. FFXIV is still crap and if they were to do a overhaul of anything it should be FFXIV should just be new area's for FFXI. Like an upgrade and or expantion into one game that needs to be unlocked and not used by PS2 players. Either way I'm sure with the number of responses that come from the english forums this game should cater to NA over any other region. I barley see JP players on anymore (at least in Valefor) And im on normally during JP primetime playing.


FFXIV is still crapIt's really not still crap, it has greatly improved and is still improving, just like FFXI. Play FFXI at its japanese launch, I guarantee you'd have found it crap.

Wow, when did we become so entitled, anyway? You're asking SE to prioritize you over its own market where it's based? And who would have thunk that fans of FFXI would want them to prioritize their game over some other game? This is a totally, TOTALLY unbiased, reasonable viewpoint...

Square Enix is a Japanese company. Why should they prioritize us over their own people? In all actuality, nobody should be prioritized, we should all be treated equally.

[Greatguardian]

Hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

ITT: Bias in feedback is bad.

[Alhanelem]

Hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

ITT: Bias in feedback is bad.
Derrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrp

Yes, bias in feedback IS bad. Apparently we think we're better than the Japanese, for no reason in particular. What we want is what matters and what they want doesn't.

As someone who is normally quite objective, I'm suprised to see you make such a silly and irrelevant comment.

[Greatguardian]

You're skipping steps. Bias in feedback is fine. It's something statisticians and marketing professionals who are worth half a crap already account for when compiling market data. Trying to remove your bias as a member of a polled market actually makes them overcompensate in their data and assume people are happy where they are not.

The issue is not one of perceived superiority, but rather one of perceived partiality. Companies have to make a conscious decision concerning their image when they do things like this. It's not unreasonable for an ancillary (though powerful) market to be upset when they are being treated inequitably by development staff. Do they necessarily have to care? Nah. But that doesn't make it unreasonable for people to be upset. People have every reason to be upset, and if SE's marketing division has any idea what they're doing (I know, they really really don't, but pretend they do), then they'd have already accounted for people being upset before making the decision and chose to proceed with it anyways.

[Alhanelem]

but rather one of perceived partiality.Right, but whether or not the percieved partiality is accurate or not, people want them to be partial to us instead of partial to their own home market.

Instead of wanting them to be partial to us or them, people should be wanting it to be fair and equal. I don't have a problem with people being upset, but you ask for equality, not inverse discrimination.

[Greatguardian]

Right, but whether or not the percieved partiality is accurate or not, people want them to be partial to us instead of partial to their own home market.

Instead of wanting them to be partial to us or them, people should be wanting it to be fair and equal. I don't have a problem with people being upset, but you ask for equality, not inverse discrimination.

I don't see any of that in the OP or in the conversations in this thread I partook in. The reason for this thread's creation was due to an imbalance, rather than wanting the balance in our favor. Voting is all fine and dandy. Ignoring votes gets people upset. I doubt most people here want SE to turn around and ignore the JP base. I certainly don't. But if they're going to ask for an international poll, I'd appreciate it if they did us the courtesy of counting our results.

[Alhanelem]

I don't see any of that in the OP or in the conversations in this thread I partook in. The reason for this thread's creation was due to an imbalance, rather than wanting the balance in our favor. Voting is all fine and dandy. Ignoring votes gets people upset. I doubt most people here want SE to turn around and ignore the JP base. I certainly don't. But if they're going to ask for an international poll, I'd appreciate it if they did us the courtesy of counting our results.
I was more specifically nodding at the post saying that we should be a higher priority than the Japanese. I agree that the voting should have been conducted equitably.