Blood Pact Adjustment: A Suggestion

[Yygdrasil]

A lot of people are posting in this forum about making radical changes to the way we play SMN as a whole. I think... with a few minor changes we can drastically improve SMN's playability.

The current BP timer starts out at 60seconds and can be capped as low as 45. It's great if you can get it that low... in fact... it's really not all that hard to do it these days. The only problem I see with it is that even if we can reduce the timer to 45... we are still drastically out-damaged by everyone... and our versatility as a Jack-of-all-Trades doesn't really make up for it in the long run.

Long-term damage output is one of the main focuses to the suggestions that people are posting... but what if we keep the damage output/BP the same... and just allow us to cap out our BP reduction at a lower number... like say... 30 instead of 45.

15 seconds makes a big difference when you think about it in terms of a longer fight. This reduction will allow a few things... namely:

1: It will make acquiring the Avatar Specific ToM Weapons more... useful... since they offer such a drastic reduction to BP timer all by themselves.

2: It will allow (if recapped closer to 30) more BPs/minute... which equates to more damage/minute.

3: It will allow us to rotate and keep more buffs on the party if we want.

4: It will (again... if recapped down to 30) allow up to 4... or 5 Astral Flows/2hour.

5: It will make Wings of the Goddess more desirable to players who have not yet tackled the missions/quests further in... because of the BP reduction atma offered upon completion of the Windurst Quests.

6: It means we wont need a new ability... or new spells... or an overhaul of the BPs we already have. More BPs in a shorter period of time = better... plain and simple.


Try not to think of it in terms of "I'd rather just get some new colossal avatar that deals whoop-ass loads of damage" and think of it more in terms of a realistic solution. Correct me if I'm wrong... but wouldn't that make everyone happy?

Also: I do agree that our 2hour needs a bit of an alteration... but I can't really think of anything to suggest besides an adjustment to the damage modifier. Maybe just adding a 5-10% damage increase to the BPs would offer up enough damage to make people happy with it. I mean... especially if this BP recap were to come into effect... that would mean +10%damage/BP... with 1-2 additional BPs/Astral Flow.

[Yygdrasil]

(*shameless bump*)

50 views and 1 thumbs up. Seems on par so far. I would accept any and all forms of critique here. If I'm missing something crucial that would cause my idea to break anything... I want to know. So far... I see nothing.

[Lilia]

the new ja (time- for mp) i rly want :)

[Herby]

Actually I think that's what SE should have done ages ago. I mean, every Mage can reduce it's recast by 50% max, why can't SMN do that. 30 secs per BP wouldn't be broken by any means. Atm a pretty good geared SMN is sitting on massive amounts of MP and because of the BP timer we have actually like infinite MP, if I don't get sloppy i never get out of MP (OUTSIDE of Abyssea).

I'd really love to see fundamental changes to the whole BP system though.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Because Blood Pacts are Job Abilities, and not spells?

[Evilvivi]

Actually I think that's what SE should have done ages ago. I mean, every Mage can reduce it's recast by 50% max, why can't SMN do that. 30 secs per BP wouldn't be broken by any means. Atm a pretty good geared SMN is sitting on massive amounts of MP and because of the BP timer we have actually like infinite MP, if I don't get sloppy i never get out of MP (OUTSIDE of Abyssea).

I'd really love to see fundamental changes to the whole BP system though.

Yes, every mage can reduce recast by max of 50%...on spells. BPs are abilities, outside of MKD head for waltz recast, SMN is the only job that gets gear to lower ability recast. Also if you take into consideration originally Third Eye which originally had a 1min recast at max merits got down to 50, the 45 second cap on Blood Pacts is a gift.

[Herby]

wow... just wow... how observant...

despite the fact they're only TECHNICALLY Job Abilities and PRACTICALLY act as our spells, it's just not fair that other mages can reduce their recast by 50% while SMN can only do that by 25%, no?

[Neisan_Quetz]

Your spells are your summons. Blood pacts are Blood pacts. Stop getting them confused. Summoners are called heretic mages for a reason, they don't follow standard patterns.

Oh and unlike other mages BP Timer isn't affected by weakness or slow.

[Ihnako]

Then what does your SMN do while it's bloodpackt timers are not ready?
Technicaly SMN is a mage job who is just able to do something evey 45 seconds.
Even my Lv5 BLM can do more than that.

[Herby]

okay, then i go by your Logic:

SMN can only do 2 BPs at a time and then have to wait 45 seconds to do ANOTHER DAMN THING. Mages can just switch to another spell... oh wait then you will say SMN dmg is hateless blabla... THAT STILL DOES NOT ERASE THE FACT that SMN is too slow nowadays, it may have worked a few years ago, but SMN needs means to speed up their gameplay, that's ALL I say about it! Don't you wanna understand? I DON'T CARE IF IT'S a Job Ability, it's still our natural (inb4 use /WHM or somtehing like that) source of damage/buffs/healing as SPELLS ARE FOR OTHER MAGES!! I played SMN long enough and don't need some wiseguy to tell me that.

[Evilvivi]

You know, I've played SMN since before the Ward/Rage patch. Out of all the things I ever complained about BP delay was never one of them, neither do I have a problem with just watching my avatar wail away at a target for 45 secs while waiting for recast, technically 40 seconds since it takes about 5 seconds for the BP/animation to go through.

I think right now summoner is good as is.

[Herby]

I play SMN since 2004, so? That doesn't change any facts in favor for me or you.

Don't give me that crap. It's not a matter of what worked earlier. I love my Job, it's my main for 7 years and I always lived with the restrictions on SMN and never said a word about it. But really, it's about time SMN gets fixed, i never had a problem with watching my Avatar do the work, but SMN is the only pet job that can't do anything besides that (again I don't want the subjob discussion). I really don't get it why a Summoner of all things is against some more diversity for his own job? and your 5 seconds less waiting comment isn't very bright btw, when you have to wait 5 seconds to go off, you forget the fact that it's 5 seconds after the timer, so it's still 45 seconds, oh and the ready time of BPs is 3 seconds, but well that is nitpicking.

And why the hell are we even arguing? shouldn't we ALL hope for improvements for SMN? I really don't get it why there are SMNs that DON'T want improvements... HELL SAM gets improvements even though they really don't need it or ask for it. Why does it seem like SMN is the only job who likes to fall behind?!

[Razushu]

Your spells are your summons. Blood pacts are Blood pacts. Stop getting them confused. Summoners are called heretic mages for a reason, they don't follow standard patterns.

Oh and unlike other mages BP Timer isn't affected by weakness or slow.

You do realise we're called heretic mages for reasons tying into the Windurstian mission storyline, not because avatar's have Blood Pacts. So just because we are immune to a debuff it takes all of 4 seconds to remove, and can fight less hampered than most while weakened(a situation which pops up rare enough), it's ok that we're hamstrung by a ridiculously long timer?

[Neisan_Quetz]

I was referring to general lore not just FFXI's, Summoners are rarely referred to as standard mages. Even before and during the War Summoners were not recognized as normal mages. Most during the war weren't only summoners in the first place, many of them are White mages and black mages and also summoners.

Compared to other JA no, BPs are -now- not really on a long timer. Avatars also do not follow player pDIF/level correction and they fare abit better against stronger mobs even without buffs. While I do think Bloodpact cap should be lowered, I don't feel it's so limiting a summoner can't function as they are now, nor do I think it is so broken that the job is unplayable because of the current bloodpact timer.

[Razushu]

I was referring to general lore not just FFXI's, Summoners are rarely referred to as standard mages. Even before and during the War Summoners were not recognized as normal mages. Most during the war weren't only summoners in the first place, many of them are White mages and black mages and also summoners.

Compared to other JA no, BPs are -now- not really on a long timer. Avatars also do not follow player pDIF/level correction and they fare abit better against stronger mobs even without buffs. While I do think Bloodpact cap should be lowered, I don't feel it's so limiting a summoner can't function as they are now, nor do I think it is so broken that the job is unplayable because of the current bloodpact timer.

A mage is a mage at the end of the day "heretic" or not, storyline elements can't really be used to justify a heavy limitation to the job. Compared to other JA, your argument falls down, not least of all because if you wanna nitpick they're pet commands not job abilities. They have to fare a bit better without buffs, because they don't get buffs.... ever, besides of course what our gear gives them, and what they can put on themselves, and even after this our Avatar's can still fall behind even the pets of the other pet jobs.

We can function, but we are hamstrung by the timer, which in itself isn't that low, but think about it. It's a global timer, it limits everything we can do, we're at 1 attack every 45 secs, counting our Avatar's awful melee thats a bad limitation. Answer this for me would you be ok with RDM if all your nukes/enfeebles were on a shared 45 second timer, and all your buffs/heals were on another 45 second timer?

[Yygdrasil]

While I do think Bloodpact cap should be lowered, I don't feel it's so limiting a summoner can't function as they are now, nor do I think it is so broken that the job is unplayable because of the current bloodpact timer.

No one said that SMN was broken. I think everyone here is arguing just the opposite. Aside from a few circumstances (WoE and certain Abyssea NMs) SMN isn't nearly as useful as the current popular jobs. As it stands today, it's NIN, WAR, BLM, WHM, THF (sometimes BLU) or gtfo.

BPs being JA's isn't an issue that I really touched on either. Yeah, they're JAs and not Spells... but they're restricted to 2 categories. If I use a Physical BP, it sets a timer for ALL physical BPs. Don't misunderstand me though, I feel that this is fair and keeps us from being far too powerful for our own good. I just think that the over-all BP timer should be reduced to a more streamlined number. I'm also not suggesting that SE giftwrap and hand it to us on a silver plate. I'm suggesting that they afford us the capability to reduce it as low as 30seconds. This change will still require that SMNs go to extra measures to reduce it to that point. It's going to take work... and time... but it also encourages people to participate in activities that are at the moment largely ignored.

Take into consideration the gear/atmas available to us to reduce the timer... as it is now:

Weapons:
Fay Crozier (Aug. -1~5)
Empyrian Weapons (TOM: Up to -12 for the +3... and only the Dark one can be used for multiple Avatars)

Head:
Austere Hat (-2)
Penance Hat (-3)
Anwig Salade/Champion's Galea/Selenian Cap (-3)
Summoner's Horn NQ/+1 (-3)

Body:
Yinyang Robe (-5)
Summoner's Doublet NQ/+1 (-3)
Penance Robe (-4)
Evoker's Doublet +1 (-4)
Mirke Wardecors/Nuevo Coselete/Royal Redingote (-4)

Hands:
Austere Cuffs (-1)
Ebon Gages/Ebur Gages (-2)
Evoker's Bracers +1 (-1)
Furia Gages (-2)
Penance Cuffs (-2)
Summoner's Bracers NQ/+1 (-2)

Back:
Altius Mantle (Aug. -1~2)
Tiresias Cape (-3)

Legs:
Summoner's Spats NQ/+1 (-2)

Feet:
Summoner's Pigaches NQ/+1 (-2)

Ear:
Caller's Earring (-1)

Atma:
Atma of the Azure Sky (-10: Abyssea Only)

There might be a few I missed... but those are the ones I recall off the top of my head, but assuming that's it... lets do the math...
Main: -12
Head: -4
Body: -5
Hands: -2
Legs: -2
Feet: -2
Back: -3
Ear: -1
Atma: -10

That's a max of -31 from gear... only 1 point above the cap that I'm suggesting. That's also assuming you have the correct empy weapon for the avatar you're using... have farmed up the AF2's from Dynamis... got your AF3 Earring and camped Shikigami Weapon. That's no small feat for anyone... I don't think it's unrealistic for them to drop the cap that far.

It would encourage people to play more of Dynamis, Abyssea(like they need that, lol), NM camping/Farming, Empy trials and possibly WotG to finish at least the Windurst questline (which is awsome btw... I highly recommend it).

I mean hell... im not asking for it to be handed to SMNs... I'm suggesting it as a way for those of us who truly enjoy the job to be able to maximize our potential. If that's too much to ask, then I don't know what else to suggest for the job that wouldn't be a pipe dream... or just ridiculous.

[Cabalabob]

Couldn't they just split the blood pacts so that they are seperate for each avatar?
e.g. L. Blood Pact: Rage + L. Blood Pact: Ward. L. = Leviathan, and so on for each avatar.

This wouldn't be at all unbalanced, because other DD's can do the amount of dmg a blood pact can do in one weapon skill and have the TP to do another one in the time it takes a SMN to ready a blood pact, wait for it to go off, release the avatar and summon a new avatar.

It would also eat through your mp if you spam blood pacts too much, it would promote using more than one avatar and more than the strongest blood pacts seeing as you could use some old blood pacts for their enfeebles, like fenrir's crescent fang for paralyze, then Titan for Rock Throw for Slow, then Garuda for predator claws and so on with no wait between each attack and the same goes for the buffing side. Summoning skill ups would be easier too.

Not only would this improve SMN's horrible boring wait between pacts, but it would also make SMN a lot more like it was in old games where the summon would come out attack then leave, seeing as SMN would constantly be swapping out avatars for more blood pacts.

[Malamasala]

I think SE needs to figure out what the job is supposed to do soon. It isn't really fair to run 10 years without a clue.

Are we support? Then we should definitely have our debuff low level rage pacts on separate timers so we can apply slow, blind, paralyze etc.

Are we jack of all trades? Then something should be done about spirits so we can cover nuking and healing appropriately instead of relying on our avatars for everything.

Are we summoners? Then I think part of the deal is doing AOE damage as in ALL past games. Can't just restrict it to 2 hours the whole game.

Are we a pet job? If so I'd like to not actually outdamage my own pet by 200% when meleeing on SMN. Some actual commands would be nice too, even if not even BST or PUP get any real pet commands to use.



I still think it is a shame they had the SMN mechanic down to perfection in FFX, then decided that you can't repeat content since people would be unhappy. Better to make things worse but new and fresh. Having an avatar to tell to block or attack or heal itself with a spell would have been the best pet job in any MMO. Instead it has been the worst.

[Zemarin]

lol I love Mala's Post.... but seriously

Argument 1) Smn is the only job that has gear to lower its Job Abilities. (Really pet Commands but ok.)

Response: Thing is Summoners Pet Command Costs MP... No other Job Spends Their MP to use a JA/ Pet Command Cept RDM for Convert. With a large MP

Argument 2) Smn is relatively Hate Less...

Response: All pet jobs are relatively hateless, PUP is 100% Hateless using the Blackmage Pet and some funky macros... BST and PUP both can moderate their Hate to their Pets; Smn Can't at all! So eventually after a While a Smn will have to take a punch where as bst and Pup don't really have to, and even if they do they are more well geared to take that punch because they have a varying array of Job Traits and Abilities to help them survive.
Also With a single Job Ability Blackmages are Argumently "hateless" as well esp if you team them with a good thf, and so are Rangers with Decoy Shot... Smn really is not unique in that manner anymore.

Argument 3) Summoner pets are expendable...

Response: With Dues Ex Automatons are expendable With Deactivate Automatons have Unlimited MP for Healing.
With call Beast Pets pets may not be as expendable but they also die slower and are all able to be cured, and have insanely high HP. The only time this is a benefit for SMN is versus Mobs the will normally 1-3 shot any and everything, which is very rare.

Also when talking in terms of Abyssea Atma Make/ Break Smn along with AF3/Magians where as some/most jobs can operate missing a few scraps here and there a smn is relatively weak/useless without all of the above, Outside of Abyssea its pretty much only good on the really hard stuff and Raid-esque events such as Beseiged/WoE/Campaign and rarely some NM Fight.

Like BLM, Smn is better in flocks rather than just having one, In fact that's the only Time smn's really shine, a lone smn cant do much of anything where the same isn't true for most other jobs.

Honestly The only reason I can think of as to why summoner is so limited as a job is because 18 Smn Vs. One Target is pretty Much Easymode. Other than that there's no reason as to why this job should be so limited individually.

The only Advantage it has over other Pet jobs is Shiva and Diablos can Sleepga and Ice Spike...

If I had to Change Anything I'd:
Make Avatars able to Participate in SC.

Change Blood Pact Rage to include another Sub Division Just for Magic Based Blood Pacts which Consume TP.

Make Ward BP significant lower Recast Compared to Rage.

Change Astral Flow so that it actually Consumes 0 mp not all the Summoner's MP

Remove lame requirements to use certain JA's like MP consumption on manacede.