The elephant in the room

[cidbahamut]

I love my White Mages to death, but someone has to say it: White Mage is OP.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to get a head start before the lynch mob catches wind of this.

[SpankWustler]

I'd say White Mage and other jobs that perform really well right now are just about right, and all jobs should be brought to that level. Jobs that fulfill one purpose should feel extremely powerful while fulfilling that one purpose, and jobs with multiple purposes shouldn't perform below acceptable standards in many of those purposes.

If Voidwatch is any indication, it's not like we can steam-roll over content that's intended to be challenging just by bashing our numbers against a monster's numbers anyway.

Sadly, if the pointless and ineffectual change to Restraint is a sign of pointier and Super Effective changes to come, the development team has other ideas about job balance. The unsettling kind of ideas that a twelve-year-old boy has when he wonders what's inside of a squirrel.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I agree OP.

WHM should be powerful no doubt about it, but there are limits. When a role in a game can only be performed by one job it's bad game design.

[Retsujo]

WHM is a great healer, but a shitty enfeebler. It's great with enhancements but not as great as RDM or SCH. I would say a WHM's healing power is really potent and strong, but I wouldn't call WHM OP.

Just my opinion :)

[Mirage]

WHM is a good healer and an somewhat ok enfeebler, RDM is a very good enfeebler and somewhat ok healer. One of the the problem is of course that most of the content in this game lately doesn't need anything but a good healer, and the few enfeebles you need, a whm can stick on a mob anyway because of atmas that send your magical accuracy through the clouds.

I'd rather for example RDM got enfeebles that were strong enough to make up for its shortcomings on the healing side, as well as mobs that are so strong that the lack of one RDMs enfeebles would require like 1.5 more WHMs in order to not die.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

WHM is a great healer, but a shitty enfeebler. It's great with enhancements but not as great as RDM or SCH. I would say a WHM's healing power is really potent and strong, but I wouldn't call WHM OP.

Just my opinion :)

WHM is the best Magical Enhancer. It may not increase the duration but it's not like casting it is out of their way. AoE buffs make that easy. The only one they don't have AoE is Haste.

I think when there is only one job for every bit of content that can heal then it's a bit OP, monopolies have never been fun.

If you need a DD you have multiple choices, magical DD you have quite a few too with BLM being the best (as it should be), Need a healer? Well you only have one option there.

[Retsujo]

WHM is best for Protect/Shell/Barspell I agree. We even have merits to enhance those spells. But Taking away P/S/B-ele, RDM and SCH have a better opportunity. In fact, SCH has the ability to cast Protectra, Shellra, Hastega, and pretty much anything aoe (albeit through its own methods), and RDM can keep up with the enhancement recasts far better than any other job.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

WHM is best for Protect/Shell/Barspell I agree. We even have merits to enhance those spells. But Taking away P/S/B-ele, RDM and SCH have a better opportunity. In fact, SCH has the ability to cast Protectra, Shellra, Hastega, and pretty much anything aoe (albeit through its own methods), and RDM can keep up with the enhancement recasts far better than any other job.

Haste is blocked from Accession, outside of that their is nothing worthwhile to AoE WHM can't do.

RDM is an OK enhancer. Refresh and Haste is all they have worthwhile though. More or less everything else is self cast bar Protect V and Shell V which a RDM shouldn't be casting when a WHM's is so much better.

WHM is the ultimate party support job, no other can even remotely come close to it. Don't get me wrong I don't want other jobs to be better at doing what WHM does as it's the WHM's job. It's just as I said poor design for no other job to even be a close second.

[Merton9999]

I agree with the way SpankWustler put it. I love what I'm able to do on WHM. The other jobs that are ostensibly designed to heal just need to be boosted to come close or be passable. I don't want my WHM capabilities to be nerfed in any way, I just wish every time I played it I didn't have to laugh inside when I think of how I would be accomplishing anything remotely similar on RDM or SCH.

A big part of this is mob design too. It makes no sense to try to balance RDM in terms of enfeebling over cures then make mobs immune to enfeebles. It makes no sense to try to balance SCH in terms of enhancing over cures, then make mobs dispel or absorb everything or prevent a majority of AOE enhancements with fatal auras. It makes for a very mundane and exclusive sort of set up where, despite the vast array of interesting enfeebles and enhancements available, only boring cures are acceptable.

[Babekeke]

Of course, if you're fighting a mob/mobs that hit very fast but for only a little damage... Phalanx > cure 5/6. So WHM doesn't ALWAYS win... just 99% of the time.

[Jerbob]

I'm biased, of course, but I think that as the game stands White Mage needs to be significantly better than other jobs capable of healing, simply because that's all White Mage can do. SE needs to focus much more on how our parties work to balance things out rather than just randomly giving jobs new stuff; if we (i.e. SE) can get to a stage where having support casters in parties is worthwhile on their own merits rather than as a replacement for a specialist, this sort of thing won't be an issue.

I think the old 75 cap concept of "not needing high potency healing >> get a RDM to do it" is a terrible system and one that we could easily fall back into if SE isn't careful. SE needs to modify support casters so that a group will want to pair up eg. RDM and WHM because they work so well together - well enough to make up for that extra slot being used. Whether that's through support caster enfeebling and enhancing combined with reducing subjob power so WHM has an MP dependence again (which would have to be done with extreme care and would completely rely on support casters NOT receiving healing potency enhancements) or some new system, I don't know, but overall I think it would benefit everyone.

Personally I think Red Mage just needs to get its enfeebling/enhancing sorted out so that it brings something unique and unquestionably worthwhile to the table that earns it a place, even if that's something as broken as Haste II - and it needs to be tolerable to use, not soulless buff cycling. SCH is just so completely messed up and broken that it needs to be replaced or completely revamped, in my opinion. Make it a proper support caster instead of making it specialise in absolutely everything and then it might start being workable by significantly enhancing the few unique tools it does have (weather, enmity control etc). As it stands it's an absolute mess.

[Dais]

I agree with the sentiment that whm is not overpowered by itself, but it has become the only viable healer -which imbalances it.
Rdm and sch are supposed to be at least adequate healers, but I defy anyone to use only rdm and sch at big NMs now. I recently healed on sch in an ironclad trirtuator fight and it was all I could do to cure bomb and use my potency stratagem. I had no time for status cures, enfeebles, or healing anyone other than the primary tank. I can't imagine attempting some of the new voidwatch monsters substituting any healer other than whm.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I'm biased, of course, but I think that as the game stands White Mage needs to be significantly better than other jobs capable of healing, simply because that's all White Mage can do. SE needs to focus much more on how our parties work to balance things out rather than just randomly giving jobs new stuff; if we (i.e. SE) can get to a stage where having support casters in parties is worthwhile on their own merits rather than as a replacement for a specialist, this sort of thing won't be an issue.

I think the old 75 cap concept of "not needing high potency healing >> get a RDM to do it" is a terrible system and one that we could easily fall back into if SE isn't careful. SE needs to modify support casters so that a group will want to pair up eg. RDM and WHM because they work so well together - well enough to make up for that extra slot being used. Whether that's through support caster enfeebling and enhancing combined with reducing subjob power so WHM has an MP dependence again (which would have to be done with extreme care and would completely rely on support casters NOT receiving healing potency enhancements) or some new system, I don't know, but overall I think it would benefit everyone.

Personally I think Red Mage just needs to get its enfeebling/enhancing sorted out so that it brings something unique and unquestionably worthwhile to the table that earns it a place, even if that's something as broken as Haste II - and it needs to be tolerable to use, not soulless buff cycling. SCH is just so completely messed up and broken that it needs to be replaced or completely revamped, in my opinion. Make it a proper support caster instead of making it specialise in absolutely everything and then it might start being workable by significantly enhancing the few unique tools it does have (weather, enmity control etc). As it stands it's an absolute mess.

It also needs Cure V, I don't care if they weaken it so it only does a bit more than Cure IV for SCH and RDM but it's needed. Cure IV > Cure III and back again is not viable anymore.

The biggest loss for SCH and RDM then is spamming two cures still instead of 1 like WHM at least then it can cope in current content with WHM still being the best with needing one cure and that nice Stoneskin effect.

[Jerbob]

I agree that Cure V (or another "half-cure") would fix the most immediate issue, but I'm not sure that it wouldn't create more balance-type issues further down the line (or even immediately). Both of those situations are talking about support casting jobs (Red Mage, SCH) in a primary healing role on their own in situations that need high potency healing - and I can entirely sympathise that it's not easy and that, as the game stands, it really doesn't work, but should a support caster even be able to do that solo?

What I'm trying to say is that instead of tossing new healing magic at support casting jobs and calling it fixed (which I don't think it would be), we need to make a stand here and sort out the problem once and for all. My belief is that SE needs to fix the issue by, counter-intuitively I know, buffing support casting jobs' ability to support so that it's worthwhile having two mages in a party. Two support casters together could then "dual heal" and throw out new (powerful, effective and desirable) buffs/enfeebles, or team up with a white mage and add nuking or something else to the mix together with new buffs/enfeebles. Likewise, two hybrids can be in a nuking party together, spotting healing/support and nuking in synergy, or team up with black mages.

From what I gather most Red Mages don't want to main heal on their own anyway. Surely making parties more flexible by having two "mage slots", and then letting support casters do what their jobs are supposed to do, has got to be better than everyone just imitating Black Mage and White Mage? I think SE just have to give hybrid casters the tools to make this effective, without then making the specialists redundant like certain events at level 75.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I agree that Cure V (or another "half-cure") would fix the most immediate issue, but I'm not sure that it wouldn't create more balance-type issues further down the line (or even immediately). Both of those situations are talking about support casting jobs (Red Mage, SCH) in a primary healing role on their own in situations that need high potency healing - and I can entirely sympathise that it's not easy and that, as the game stands, it really doesn't work, but should a support caster even be able to do that solo?

What I'm trying to say is that instead of tossing new healing magic at support casting jobs and calling it fixed (which I don't think it would be), we need to make a stand here and sort out the problem once and for all. My belief is that SE needs to fix the issue by, counter-intuitively I know, buffing support casting jobs' ability to support so that it's worthwhile having two mages in a party. Two support casters together could then "dual heal" and throw out new (powerful, effective and desirable) buffs/enfeebles, or team up with a white mage and add nuking or something else to the mix together with new buffs/enfeebles. Likewise, two hybrids can be in a nuking party together, spotting healing/support and nuking in synergy, or team up with black mages.

From what I gather most Red Mages don't want to main heal on their own anyway. Surely making parties more flexible by having two "mage slots", and then letting support casters do what their jobs are supposed to do, has got to be better than everyone just imitating Black Mage and White Mage? I think SE just have to give hybrid casters the tools to make this effective, without then making the specialists redundant like certain events at level 75.

As it stands though SCH can just, and RDM can't even really support. Giving them a barely more potent version of Cure IV, which is what I suggest for RDM and SCH's Cure V wouldn't remove WHM not even closely it would allow them to support better than any job /WHM and soon /RDM can currently.

I'm not asking to main heal, hence not asking for Cure V at WHM's current format, I'm asking for a RDM to be a capable backup-healer if nothing else and sorry, Cure IV > Cure III doesn't cut it anymore not even as a backup. SCH can sort-of get away with it with Rapture. RDM really can not.

I should note: Level.75 was a horrible time.. but so much has changed now with WHM being beyond a viable healer now that's no longer just a luxury... However in the process they are killing two of the hybrids in their psycho attempt to only buff WHM and BLM to godly standards.

[Ophannus]

Having WHM be the absolute best healer by a wide margin is like only letting WAR learn weapon skills past 300 skill. Why can there be only one healer but there can be 14 DDs? You can't even say "Cuz healing is all WHM is good for" considering they get 90% of RDM's Enhancing spells in AoE form and most of their enfeebles.