What in sub hand?

[Ketaru]

Ok. Long time no post. I recently got Chant du Cygne and am wondering now what to wear in my subhand. Originally it was Chimeric Fleuret while I mainhanded Twilight Knife. But now that I don't mainhand Twilight Knife so...

Here's what I got so far to choose from:
Twilight Knife (Quadruple Attack+3%...also that Drain stuff that is irrelevant to us unfortunately)
Chimeric Fleuret (Acc+5 Enspell+7 offhand-only Double Attack+4%)
Khanda 2-4 OAT

No fighting. Not a debate about whether it's Ok to melee or not. Just straight up question about which is the best in offhand. No wise arse comments about how the best thing in the offhand is a Grip either.

[Swords]

Aside from what you listed, many also use the Occ. Atk. Twice Khanda +3, STR/Atk Shamsir +3, and since you got an Alamace the DEX/Acc Shamshir +3 is also good choice for CDC mods.

However, the new Haste/AGI/ TP Drain Sword that you get from WoE looks like it will be a top contender as well for offhand.

[Ketaru]

Nah, unfortunately it's not an Almace. Don't have the dedication for it. Actually...not that's not really what I mean. I have the dedication to get mine. I just don't have the dedication to get weapons for the people I'd have to group with to get it.

But I'll think about working on the DEX Shamshir.

[Crimson_Slasher]

For straight up tp build, 2-4 hitter. But if you wanna hit those big numbers, id say T-knife. I guess the 2-4 hitter would be the best consistant returns, but for output of those 3, Twilight. Other magian weapons arent a bad idea either but it is hard to beat sheer quantaty of ws with a single spike of damage.

[Neisan_Quetz]

2-4 OaXweapons are absolute garbage for overall damage, the best offhand for Almace Rdm is the same offhand for Blu, Str Shamshir if accuracy isn't an issue, Dex Shamshir if it is. Of the remaining 2 weapons, use the Chimeric.

[saevel]

Ok. Long time no post. I recently got Chant du Cygne and am wondering now what to wear in my subhand. Originally it was Chimeric Fleuret while I mainhanded Twilight Knife. But now that I don't mainhand Twilight Knife so...

Here's what I got so far to choose from:
Twilight Knife (Quadruple Attack+3%...also that Drain stuff that is irrelevant to us unfortunately)
Chimeric Fleuret (Acc+5 Enspell+7 offhand-only Double Attack+4%)
Khanda 2-4 OAT

No fighting. Not a debate about whether it's Ok to melee or not. Just straight up question about which is the best in offhand. No wise arse comments about how the best thing in the offhand is a Grip either.

First, what exactly are you fighting? This determines the stats your going to need.

I do VWNM's as RDM/NIN with Almace + STR Shamshir +3. Working on a DA+10% sword but it's become a side project to be getting my Hyksos Robe.

Even with CDC being a 60% DEX WS you still need attack and lots of it. The STR Shamshir +3 has +25 attack (5 from STR), that is incredibly hard to beat. The only thing that competes with it is the DA+10% sword. Unfortunately it has too high of a delay for me to be comfortable with. Both weapons have the same DPS after factoring in DA / Temper. So it boils down to what is better for your build, +2.5 fSTR and +25 attack vs +10DA.

I wouldn't go for the +DEX one, accuracy is ridiculously easy to cap / fix now, it's attack that we have a weakness in.

-=Edit=-

Crimson, T.Knife is a horrible off hand weapon. Its only value is a nice screen shot worthy WS once per 50 WS's. Not only must the QA proc, but the additional three attacks must land. You end up with an Asuran Fists situation. At capped acc only 69% chance of all seven hits landing.

[Ophannus]

Is joyeuse still bad to offhand with Almace? Figured the super low delay and high OAT rate would help with TP generation more so than Magian DA Sword.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Inside no, outside it's showing its age for a level 75 weapon. Any shamshir at 95 is more overall damage than Joyeuse (Str/Dex Shamshir beat DA Khanda at 90, I don't see this changing for 95) iirc.

[Doombringer]

use the chimeric fleuret for now, but work on the str and dex shamshir +3's. use the dex/acc one if you need the acc, if not, use the str/att one.

some have suggested to me that if you don't need the acc OR the attack, then the da khanda could be better. but i say if you don't need the acc OR the att.... who care's? you're gonna tear the thing a new asshole anyway? why build a whole weapon that is only MAYBE useful in the one situation where your gonna be wrecking things no matter what?


so yah, str and dex shamshirs. chimeric in the meantime. i didn't mention ephemeron cuz i've never seen one and i still dunno how strong the additional effect is (video DID imply awesomeness however) swords mentioned it dropping from WoE? but the post se announced it in implied voidwatch i thought? see? confusing ; ;

[Swords]

i didn't mention ephemeron cuz i've never seen one and i still dunno how strong the additional effect is (video DID imply awesomeness however) swords mentioned it dropping from WoE? but the post se announced it in implied voidwatch i thought? see? confusing ; ;

Yeah, there's like 2 versions a NQ and a HQ version, I read somewhere it came from like WoE flux 6 or something. I haven't seen any either, and probably won't till information becomes more readily available.

I did forget to mention Sagasinger too, if your feeling ambitious enough to take on Arch Dynamis Lord enough times to be lucky.

[saevel]

use the chimeric fleuret for now, but work on the str and dex shamshir +3's. use the dex/acc one if you need the acc, if not, use the str/att one.

some have suggested to me that if you don't need the acc OR the attack, then the da khanda could be better. but i say if you don't need the acc OR the att.... who care's? you're gonna tear the thing a new asshole anyway? why build a whole weapon that is only MAYBE useful in the one situation where your gonna be wrecking things no matter what?


so yah, str and dex shamshirs. chimeric in the meantime. i didn't mention ephemeron cuz i've never seen one and i still dunno how strong the additional effect is (video DID imply awesomeness however) swords mentioned it dropping from WoE? but the post se announced it in implied voidwatch i thought? see? confusing ; ;

My understanding it is drops from the T3 on outlands VWNMs.

I'm still rolling numbers on the DA+10 one, its a very interesting comparison to say the least.

[Crimson_Slasher]

I never said it was ideal to use the twilight knife, and it is a hell of a gamble AND is unlikely to be worth it, but it still DOES have low(ish) delay, and still CAN offer pretty nice spikes when(if?) it procs. Not to mention he never asked for anything but those three weapons, Secondly the 2-4 Khanda isnt about DOT per hit damage, if he can make up the modifiers elsewhere (i know, stack more stats, i personally have 2 +3 str shamshir that i love) then the tp gain could cause him to do more ws (and with CDC more damage, not to mention more enspell hits) overtime. Hence my opinion, however while we are at it he could offhand any number of other weapons that would offer nice benefits, but he didnt ask that. SO i stuck to what he asked.

[Neisan_Quetz]

You can't make up for the horrid D rating on 2-4 khanda, period. It does not increase WS frequency by a large enough margin to make up for the hit to overall damage dealt.

[saevel]

I never said it was ideal to use the twilight knife, and it is a hell of a gamble AND is unlikely to be worth it, but it still DOES have low(ish) delay, and still CAN offer pretty nice spikes when(if?) it procs. Not to mention he never asked for anything but those three weapons, Secondly the 2-4 Khanda isnt about DOT per hit damage, if he can make up the modifiers elsewhere (i know, stack more stats, i personally have 2 +3 str shamshir that i love) then the tp gain could cause him to do more ws (and with CDC more damage, not to mention more enspell hits) overtime. Hence my opinion, however while we are at it he could offhand any number of other weapons that would offer nice benefits, but he didnt ask that. SO i stuck to what he asked.

Well a few problems arise. One is the hit % distribution on all the 2~4/2~5 weapons greatly favors 2 over everything else. It's not equally spread out, SE didn't want to create a ton of new Ridills. You'll end up with significantly fewer additional hits then what you would of though, something on the order of 1.8~1.9 average attacks per round for the off hand. Additionally Multi-Hit weapons don't stack with DA and Temper is a DA effect. Either the multi hit effect will proc OR your QA/TA/DA effect will proc but not both. When viewed in this light the DA+10 weapon actually gets a 33% (for me) chance to proc twice which puts it at a 1.33 average attacks per round. Ontop of this it makes your main hand weapon, the Almace, have a 1.33 vs a 1.23 average attack per round. Then it makes WS's bigger from being higher DMG and going from 23 to 33% chance for DA.

It's the combination of all those that make it great, not any single entry. Same as the STR Shamshir+3 for me has a 1.23 average attack per round.

[Ketaru]

Certain unhelpful (but not unexpected) comments that were dealt with aside, I think I'll look into the fire element sword idea. Thanks for the ideas.

What a shame though, to be convinced that the 2-4 weapon that I've already made +2 was a waste of time.

[Ophannus]

Maybe the 99 version will boast increase attack rate since the OAT is only 40% compared to old OAT weapons like Joyeuse which are ~50%

[saevel]

Maybe the 99 version will boast increase attack rate since the OAT is only 40% compared to old OAT weapons like Joyeuse which are ~50%

Joy was 45% and the OaT weapon is 40%. The 2~5 versions are like something like 30/10/10/5 but don't quote me on that exactly. Their pretty crappy when compared to things like Joy / Ridill / M.Kris and what have you. SE deliberately made them weak.

[Kitkat]

Quoted from when I asked the same question as this is the answer I got after numbers were ran. Now this was at 90 and assumes that mandau is available, if not then obviously ignore that part, but the rest does hold merit. Take into account that there are newer daggers and swords now available also from VWNM/WOE.


Yeah, it's pretty stupid. I'm hoping they adjust it eventually, but won't hold my breath.

Anyway, as promised I ran some quick numbers. I used a 28 damage enspell, which is a high-end but not top-tier build (lacks the new enhancing magic skill body from Voidwatch) plus capped skill + merits. Also used 8/8 merited sword and dagger since we're comparing Mandau.

Started off with a comparison inside Abyssea. As I expected, STR Shamshir +2 came out slightly ahead of DA Khanda +2. More interestingly, Mandau 90 performed best out of all the weapons I compared even with just base damage/delay. Oneiros Knife was the closest contender inside Abyssea assuming critdmg+5%; if it's a 10% bonus then it would edge out Mandau. Chimeric Fleuret was next, followed by Sagasinger, then STR Shamshir +2 and DA Khanda +2. Chimeric Fleuret and Shamshir +2 would gain some ground vs higher level enemies.

Outside Abyssea, the order gets shuffled around a bit depending on what you're fighting. For new VT+ content expect Chimeric Fleuret to take the lead, followed by Sagasinger, Mandau, STR Shamshir +2, and then DA Khanda +2 and Oneiros Knife. For older content where defense is lower and thus physical damage is a greater part of your DPS, Sagasinger and Mandau are almost identical with Chimeric Fleuret close behind, followed by STR Shamshir +2, DA Khanda +2, and Oneiros Knife once again.

If enspell resists are an issue, Sagasinger is probably your best bet. Chimeric Fleuret and Mandau are still strong choices due to their strong damage/delay and the fleuret's DA+4%, though STR Shamshir will perform comparably. If you're /DNC instead of /NIN, the low delay weapons are slightly less attractive. Chimeric Fleuret gains ground if you need the accuracy+5, though there's also DEX Shamshir +2 to consider at that point.

PS: +3 versions of shamsir should be better now due to increased base dmg so once again, keep in mind this was prior to cap increase and newer weapons now available.

[saevel]

Quoted from when I asked the same question as this is the answer I got after numbers were ran. Now this was at 90 and assumes that mandau is available, if not then obviously ignore that part, but the rest does hold merit. Take into account that there are newer daggers and swords now available also from VWNM/WOE.



PS: +3 versions of shamsir should be better now due to increased base dmg so once again, keep in mind this was prior to cap increase and newer weapons now available.

Hmm how is he referring to +28 as not "top tier" at 90? At 341 was the caped skill for a RDM @90 then throw in,
16 Merits,
15 AF2 gloves
15 AF Pants / Abyssea pants
15 Emp Feet
7 Torque
6 Cape
3 Earing
3 Body
+64 In gear, +16 Merits,

421 Enhancing Magic Skill on cast,
DMG = (((5 * E)/100)+5)
26.05 Base Damage, you need 19 more to make a difference and there isn't enough available in VWNM to do that.

+26 is the absolute highest you could of got at 90, I know cause I had it, with Chimeric Flueret giving me +33 enspell on both hands, it was epic, until SE nerfed it. I was deeply pissed that SE nerfed it, there was no reason and it made the best off hand weapon we could have.

@95 Things are a wee bit different.
376 Base Skill,

16 Merits,
15 AF2 gloves
15 AF Pants / Abyssea pants
15 Emp Feet
7 Torque
6 Cape
5 Belt
3 Earing
3 Body (10 from Hyksos Robe synth)

69 From gear, 16 from merits, 76 from skill if you can snag or make a Hyksos Robe

461 or 468 (Hyksos Robe). Ends up being a 28 damage enspell. 29 damage is only possible if you got the +12 Enhancing Skill robe, which after doing tons of VWNM I have yet to see drop. For now the realistic top end is +28, still difficult to get as I haven't seen an Olympsus Sash on the AH in weeks. +27 is what most will end up having. Now more skill is always better, even if it doesn't bring you to a new tier it still raise's your magic accuracy and thus you end up with a higher average enspell.

Also did he calculate the Chim Flueret as +7 on all hits or +7 only on off hand hits? The Chim nerf really lowered it's potential as an off hand weapon, its why I decided to build a DA sword.

[Kitkat]

Prior to nerf (Think this was actually two weeks before they nerfed it). I did not ask how he reached 28 enspell at 90 cap, but would assume this was with weather or day bonus (even though this would be inconsistent damage). Other numbers ran however did show that DA khanda was, and still is, overall lower DoT since the additional help it can provide is hindered by its delay when compared to similar base D weapons with lower delay. This is similar to why the OAT ToM weapons were also found to be inadequate; the higher delay hindered the overall DoT in the long run.

[Seriha]

Was whoever maybe using a +enspell earring?

[Kitkat]

Not asked since the miscalculation was not important to me being as enspells are inconsistent with varied damage mob to mob due to level corrections, day, or other variables. I was only interested in the information about offhand use based on raw dot, he offered the enspell calculations on his own. While this skews the utility of flueret even prior nerf, the enspell damage was not important to me, only the effect. Enspells can be dispeled, or resisted due to traits and level corrections so this becomes too varied to place a constant number to.

Even with the miscalculation of enspell it did not change the layout of the weapons outside of flueret and since the nerf it has become inconsequential to me based on the weapons already available to me. Prior to nerf, tiering of the weapons was correct even with the miscalculation of enspell damage, post nerf flueret falls below shamsir, but I believe is still above da khanda, or even, primarily due to the delay difference (218 compared to 252).