[dev1029] SCH Feedback

[Fredjan]

Here's my feedback concerning Scholar additions:

Light Arts / Regen
This is a very welcomed change. I have always valued the Regen line of spells even before this time because I always saw them as a way of MP conservation instead of providing "immediate" HP recovery when it wasn't as necessary.

Having them not only become more efficient but last longer can be SCH's fix to their lack of healing magic. Even with Rapture as well as obis/Twilight Cape/Aurorastorm making SCHs better healers than RDMs, they still needed some improvement (For example, if SCH got Cure V, if it was used with Rapture it'd exceed a WHM's Cure VI in raw healing strength, not factoring cureskin). The more potent these Regen spells are, the more we don't really need a higher tier Cure spell.

Suggestions to further improve this trend:
- Add Regen V later on once we get the final level cap increase, perhaps through the 99 merit system, or via a scroll - usable at level 99 (Considering the changed levels - 59 for Regen III, and 79 for Regen IV). Since SCH is obviously wanted to be viewed as "best at using Regen spells" they should get a Regen spell no other job has, not even WHM.

Overall:
The additions to Light Arts are very much welcomed and can't wait to make use of them.

Dark Arts / Helix
Like many other Scholars, I do not understand the Helix level adjustment. Instead of them being learned from 61 to 75, they are learned from 18 to 32...!

That is a VERY huge decrease. Not only does this make us less desirable for Voidwatch, it takes away one of our "niches" and gives it to other jobs, even though they will be less potent on using them compared to us. Most of them would just use it to see if it staggers anything anyway, but still, having one of our main things given to other jobs feels like a "slap to the face," for lack of better wording. This change will make people want SCH in Voidwatch for only job ability procs (Libra and Modus Veritas). The Embrava spell will make us wanted in a zerg situation, but that is universal anyway, not limited to Voidwatch.

Suggestions:
If we're going to lose exclusive rights to tier I helix spells, we'd want tier II helix, and the ability to make them stagger mobs later on. Since staggering things is the trend in the remainder of FFXI's time from what we've seen, we want to be desired for things that aren't limited to our two-hour. If we got tier II helix spells, I'd be fine with this change.

The only thing I liked from this "side" of adjustments was this:
- Modus Veritas's recast reduced to three minutes, since it involves the helix spells. 10 minutes was way too unreasonable for a job ability that misses well over half the time.

Klimaform
It's about time we got this duration extended. 1 minute to 3 minutes is very welcome, considering we can't use it with Perpetuance. I still don't understand why something that enhances our magic accuracy is not only black magic, but dark-magic based, but I digress.



Overall, very content with the SCH changes - look forward to seeing them implemented in the next version update. I'm just not happy about the helix levels being adjusted.

[Kaisha]

I'd still prefer them to just make Modus 10min like it's always been, and be 100% land.

The nerf for it was due to SCH being able to stack the ability for huge damage if you somehow had 6+ SCH who knew how to time it with utmost precision. Why can't they just............you know, prevent it from stacking?



Regen changes were much appreciated though. You're looking at 50hp/tic with Light Arts up and using +2 bonnet, which is better than what WHM can achieve with all their Regen merits/gear. Great for extended battles, although still isn't really enough to warrant coming as a SCH healer over WHM unless it's lower-lvl content where you can nuke to your hearts' content also.

I also would like to hear more about the Helix adjustments since it's hard to test these proper, even on the test server. Only main bonus I've come to expect was the drastically reduced MP cost, which actually makes me want to bother using them now since the dmg-to-cost ratio is huge compared to the old amount. Would enjoy them even more if they hardly generated any emnity. Make it similar to other DoT spells you know? The job needs a couple niches that it excels in, and so far everything it has doesn't warrant that much attention, aside from perhaps Embrava abuse for zerg cases, but those are rare.



For me though, what I'd really like adjusted for SCH is their category 2 merits. Majority of them are useless (why waste 2 stratagem charges for +25 m.acc or -50 emnity when I can just do two nukes w/ Ebuillence instead?) unless max'd out, and don't offer much compared to maxing Enlightenment/Stormsurge instead.

Granted the community reps have teased an overhaul/adjustment to those have been in the works for some time, so perhaps we'll hear something soon enough.

[Foldypaws]

I also would like to hear more about the Helix adjustments since it's hard to test these proper, even on the test server.

Dark Arts gives helixes a (level/5)-3 bonus to base damage, 150% of that under TR. Duration is roughly doubled at level 95, haven't checked the duration modification at lower levels.

Might mirror the Regen duration progression, whatever that is, given as how the effect bonus is the same.

[brayen]

while these changes are welcome i feel the following:

Light arts:
Regen is a good step in the right direction but it feels a bit low for what the game requires in most battles, i would like at least another look over on the increased potency if at all possible, the duration on the other hand is very nice

Dark arts:
Changes to helix is a very mixed feeling, while the reduction in mp is a nice change the spell themselves are still rather underwhelming, and the fact that we are losing them as a unique spell it is hard to grasp what the future is holding(helix 2?) if there is no new helix to come then i will say the potency of these spells is still very weak and the damage over time it creates is very slow so it is a hard to determine at this time.

tabula Rasa(2hr)
the changes for tabula rasa are nice, after the last update i am still very pleased and these fixes are a smooth addition for the use of this powerful sch abuility

Modus verita:
Very nice on the reduced recast, however the issue where it hardly EVER lands on any NM still renderes this ability useless more times then not, while i wish i can say i will now be using this every 3min after this update it is not worth the time just to get a "miss"

Klimaform:
this is the best of the changes in my opinion, while we have given the spell to all jobs, this can only benefit everyone. Being able to increase magic acc full time from the use of a spell is right along the lines of a strategist.

conclusion:
*The regen from sch looks like they will be nice, however the rate of recovery is still a bit low for current content i hope this can be looked over
*The Changes to the helix line of spell are at a bit of a mixed feeling, on one hand it was a unique spell to sch, on the other the spells were very poor, the general rumor going around is that they are planning a new tier of helix so at the moment these changes are hard to comment at current
*Modus Verita STILL does not land

[Tazz]

yes changes are good but people still wont want me SCH for events if I have whm leveled or if they need procs >.<

[Kaisha]

yes changes are good but people still wont want me SCH for events if I have whm leveled or if they need procs >.<
Welcome to the days of old FFXI where if you had the highest-dmg DD or BLM lvl'd, you were stuck as it for every LS event ever.

SCH is a waste of space in VW just due to its playstyle. You can't bounce between Light & Dark Arts fast enough to be able to play a proper hybrid role like RDM could in the same situation, and you're consistantly out damaged by BLMs. Your MP efficient doesn't matter with the 20 temp items available to make use of, and the Regen boost doesn't matter since 50hp/tic isn't going to save someone getting hit for 300dmg+, or getting one-shotted by a TP move.

Even if I could actually land helix for more than 100dmg on VW NMs even with Weather/Storm/Klimaform/Obi/TwilightCape/Ebullience consistently, it's still not enough to warrant SCH due to the monsters having well over 100k HP in the later tiers given how long helix take to even deal its DoT.

[Smokenttp]

while these changes are welcome i feel the following:

Light arts:
Regen is a good step in the right direction but it feels a bit low for what the game requires in most battles, i would like at least another look over on the increased potency if at all possible, the duration on the other hand is very nice

Dark arts:
Changes to helix is a very mixed feeling, while the reduction in mp is a nice change the spell themselves are still rather underwhelming, and the fact that we are losing them as a unique spell it is hard to grasp what the future is holding(helix 2?) if there is no new helix to come then i will say the potency of these spells is still very weak and the damage over time it creates is very slow so it is a hard to determine at this time.

tabula Rasa(2hr)
the changes for tabula rasa are nice, after the last update i am still very pleased and these fixes are a smooth addition for the use of this powerful sch abuility

Modus verita:
Very nice on the reduced recast, however the issue where it hardly EVER lands on any NM still renderes this ability useless more times then not, while i wish i can say i will now be using this every 3min after this update it is not worth the time just to get a "miss"

Klimaform:
this is the best of the changes in my opinion, while we have given the spell to all jobs, this can only benefit everyone. Being able to increase magic acc full time from the use of a spell is right along the lines of a strategist.

conclusion:
*The regen from sch looks like they will be nice, however the rate of recovery is still a bit low for current content i hope this can be looked over
*The Changes to the helix line of spell are at a bit of a mixed feeling, on one hand it was a unique spell to sch, on the other the spells were very poor, the general rumor going around is that they are planning a new tier of helix so at the moment these changes are hard to comment at current
*Modus Verita STILL does not land

pretty much agreed with this, wouldnt hurt to bring regen potency up more, why not just just put a x3 while under light arts? would vastly improve the regen potency overall and would not outshine the powerfull 2hrs regen (i downgraded my sch to lvl 20 to test helixes and regen on lower levels and inside 2 hours i got a 42hp/tick regen 1 wich made my jaw drop and with adition to embrava made me solo an IT worm entirely on melee and helixes (58 dmg helixes while under 2hrs effect) PLEASE also consider that since a player need to WAIT 2hrs to do that AGAIN it is NOT overpowered), i think helixes should do more damage or have their acc adjusted since mostly i was hitting a 14 helix (altough it was thunder weather and i was using hydro helix but my max was a 32 helix wich would make it at around a thunder in damage but for 24 mp), but what disapointed me most is that the damage of a high level sch hardly will go past 100 now making then pretty much worse then an blm ancient magic (altough mp is alot lower) it wont help on high HP bosses at all,i would consider an potency boost on helixes AND adding tier II helixes more powerfull but more mp costly (lets see what about around 600+ base damage @ 90 duration and around 300 mp outside 2hrs) would actually help more on high level bosses. also learning those at around 75+(at 3 levels interval (geohelix II 75 , hydrohelix II 78, 81 anemohelix II, 84 pyrohelixII, 87 cryohelixII,90 ionohelix II, 93 NoctohelixII, 96 Luminohelix II)

[zell_]

my testing on regen 4 shows that its potency is doubled.

regen 4(no light arts) healed for 34 hp/tic

regen 4(with light arts) healed for 68 hp/tic


now onto durations:

regen 4(no arts) lasts 60 seconds(1 min)

regen 4(with light arts) lasts for 110 seconds(1 min and 50 seconds)

regen 4(with light arts, perpetuance and af3+2 hands) lasts for 270 seconds(4min and 30 seconds)


lets look at practical uses:

you cant accession it while you are not under light arts. so i guess u can use that to counteract sublimation charge whilst running to an event or something.

so mainly what we are dealing with is a 68 hp/tic situation(if you are in a support healer situation). there are twenty tics in one minute(60/3=20). lets say you use accession. the duration of regen 4 is 110 seconds. so 110/3=36.666666. multiply the 36.66666 by 68hp (36.66666*68=2,493).

2k+ hp is a lot to recover over almost two min. its quite respectable imo.

now lets do the math on regen 4 with perpetuance while wearing af3+2 hands that enhance perpetuance.
the duration is 270 seconds. 270/3=90. so 90 tics in 270 seconds. now multiply that by 68 hp. 90*68= 6,120.

6,120 hp recovered in 4 minutes and thirty seconds. i dont know about you all, but i think that is wonderful.

of course there are tp moves and spells that can one shot a dd or a tank. but you cannot ignore the amount of flexibility this adds to the alliance as a whole. it allows healers to focus on tank('s), and in the down time of a cure it allows the whm to try to proc nms in voidwatch. you could even use this for a main source of healing in an exp pt. or even a dd pt in voidwatch. the scholar itself can then change arts and continue to dmg or proc the nm. overall its a welcomed adjustment that i enjoy. the possibilities are great.

sorry for the wall of text, but i hoped to shed some light on the awesomeness of this spell in conjunction with scholars job abilities.

[zell_]

oh yes, and i meant to mention that i did all of those tests while wearing savant's bonnet +2.

[Camate]

I know there has been a lot of discussion regarding Regen and Cure V around the forums, so I wanted to pass along feedback that we received from the dev. team that Mocchi posted up earlier today.



1. Make it possible to cast Regen on alliance members
2. Make a scholar only high level Regen
3. Make abilities or traits which make it possible to use Regen strategically

I’d really like the above three things if you are going to work on scholar’s regen. Since they can use weather magic, it would be cool to change the effects of Regen based on the type of weather casted.

Aurorastorm + Regen: Enhances effect of Regen
Voidstorm + Regen: Increases effect duration of Regen
Firestorm + Regen: Regen + minor Regain
Rainstorm + Regen: Regen + minor Refresh
Sandstorm + Regen: Add half of the effect amount to your max HP
Windstorm + Regen: Regen + gradual reduction in attack delay
Hailstorm + Regen: Regen + gradual increase in magic critical hit rate
Thunderstorm + Regen: Regen + gradual increase in critical hit rate

I still feel like Cure V should be added too…
Is that reason that Cure V has not yet been added to scholar’s spell repertoire due to the fact that it making it an AoE would be too efficient?


In regards to wanting to the ability to cast Regen on alliance members, there have been a lot of people commenting on this, so we will be looking into making this an effect limited to scholar. We are going to need some time to develop and test this out so please give us a bit of time.

Also, thanks a lot for your Regen effect suggestions. We will take them into consideration.

In regards to the topic on Cure V which has cropped up in various other threads, I would like to inform you of our current direction.

We are looking at two main points:

1. The HP recovery amount of Cure III and IV are too low, and it’s hard to keep up with healing
2. Making each job’s specialty stand out more

With the level cap being increased and HP/damage taken amounts increasing, we understand that HP recovery amounts are low; however, we feel that making it possible to have every job that can use cure able to handle things all on their own is a completely different story.

While it’s possible for other jobs to help out with curing and cast support magic, which in turn create conditions making it easier to cure and also reduce the amount of cure-related stress, the job we have designated to be the main healer is white mage. Due to this, we do not currently have any plans of allowing jobs other than white mage to use Cure V.

However, the solution isn’t to limit the functionality of those jobs that assist with curing. So one possibility we’re considering is increasing the influence of the healing skill and MND, as well as increasing the HP recovery amount more than it is currently.

We believe this would involve making adjustments to jobs that have healing skill to improve the amount of HP recovered, but due to the fact that we will also be implementing cure potency equipment, implementing this aspect is simply one issue under consideration.

With that said our goal is not to make it so a certain job’s advantages are given to other jobs so they are able to do the same thing, instead we would like to look into how we can keep each job’s specialties intact and create ways that they can support other jobs.

[Ophannus]

K then since RDM is designated as the main enfeebler and enhancer why does WHM and BLM get ALL of our enfeebles and enhancing spells that are actually more useful? The only thing that differentiates RDM from other mages in terms of enfeebling are merit point spells. That's the equivalent of having SCH PLD and RDM having Cure V and making Cure VI a merit point ability for WHM. RDM has higher enhancing than WHM yet WHM is more of a designated main buffer than us IN ADDITION to already being the designated main healer.

So if WHM is a 10 out of 10 healer, RDM is a 4/10 healer. If RDM is a 6/10 Enhancer, WHM is a 9/10 Enhancer, if RDM is a 10/10 Enfeebler, WHM is an 9/10 Enfeebler. Hell WHM can even nuke higher than RDM AND has higher melee skill than RDM.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Blah! Blah! Cure V can't be weakened for SCH or RDM making them better healers than any job /whm instead we might increase Cure IV's potency.... because that makes sense..

Weaken Cure V for SCH and RDM therefore it's better than IV but weaker than WHM's Cure V and VI... it really is that simple.

--

Also completely fair that no job can Rival WHM or BLM but it's acceptable for WHM or BLM to rival RDM or SCH in their fields... Right!!!!!!!

Seriously are the DEV's clueless.

PS. PUP and their Cure V says Hi! or is that not a job now?

[Ophannus]

Not to mention WHM/RDM's Refresh and convert are FULL STRENGTH, but nobody who subs WHM gets Afflatus Misery or Afflatus Solace. Can you reduce the potency of Convert to be HALF strength for jobs that sub RDM since at 99, anyone can sub RDM and use 90% of all of its useful abilities(Convert,Haste,Refresh,Phalanx,Cure IV)

[Thala]

While it’s possible for other jobs to help out with curing and cast support magic, which in turn create conditions making it easier to cure and also reduce the amount of cure-related stress, the job we have designated to be the main healer is white mage. Due to this, we do not currently have any plans of allowing jobs other than white mage to use Cure V.

No no no no no no no no NO! I've had a lot of respect for a number of calls the XI team has made in the past year or two, but this is one I absolutely cannot agree with. If Cure V was the highest tier Cure spell, I'd say the point is debatable. But the advantage I have with WHM as a healer is not that I can cast Cure V, but rather that I can rapidly jump back and forth between casting Cure V and VI. If SCH and RDM were to be given Cure V, WHM would STILL be the superior healer. WHM would still have the highest tier Cure, an arsenal of Curagas, and the best means of curing debuffs. However, SCH and RDM would be more viable to fill the main healer role with Cure V. To say that WHM is the ONLY job that is allowed to be the main healer is absolutely ridiculous. Would you say that NIN can be the only evasion tank? PLD can be the only defense tank? SAM can be the only DD? BRD can be the only support? BLM can be the only magic DD? No! There are 20 jobs that realistically need to fill about 6 roles. Your stance on main healers right now comes off as extremely stubborn. A main healer is a required role in almost all non-soloable content (and the only reason any content is soloable is because it doesn't require a main healer). To essentially say "You must fill the main healer role with WHM" is the equivalent of saying "You must bring a WHM to everything", which is simply absurd.

[Tazz]

One of the main issues with not having cure V on other support healing jobs is I will cure IV a party member who is low on hp at or around the same time the WHM casts cure V or VI on the same low health party member which results in one of two scenarios.

1. My cure IV will hit first and the WHM cure VI will hit for like 300 hp recovered.
2. WHM's cure V hits first and my cure IV hits for 0 hp recovered.

This is most likely a party communication issue but at the same time its very frustrating for both the support healers and the WHM playing the main healing role.

A very similar issues happens even more often with regen spells I will cast a perpetuance'd regen IV on a party member and another healer will immediately spam cure them to full HP making the regen spell next to useless. Probably nothing that can be fixed but very frustrating.

A possible solution could be to add a cure tier thats in between 4 and 5. Thus giving the back up mages a happy solution to the need for a better cure spell without messing with the lower levels of cure III and IV spells

Another idea I had is to allow non whm's cure V but make it take full hate like the other cures, not the reduced cure III liek cure V is to whm. This would help ensure that only the WHM is cure V'ing people the majority of the time since if a RDM or SCH casts cure V they risk pulling much more hate than a lower tier cure.

The best thing I like about regen is the length of it. I can cast it and then move to debuffs or nuking while not worrying extremely about HP recovery of the party. Shortening the duration of regen's would take a lot away from the regen spells. (as recently changed on the test server)

I did read the post from Camate, I only wanted to express my ideas, feelings, and frustrations about the cure regen fiasco.

[Olor]

Why can there be 18 DD jobs and only 1 healer?

[Siiri]

Why can there be 18 DD jobs and only 1 healer?

Because all white mage does is heal? Where scholar nukes as well as black mage, and red mage has tier 4s, and both jobs have limitless mp compared to white mage.

[TimeMage]

No no no no no no no no NO! I've had a lot of respect for a number of calls the XI team has made in the past year or two, but this is one I absolutely cannot agree with. If Cure V was the highest tier Cure spell, I'd say the point is debatable. But the advantage I have with WHM as a healer is not that I can cast Cure V, but rather that I can rapidly jump back and forth between casting Cure V and VI. If SCH and RDM were to be given Cure V, WHM would STILL be the superior healer. WHM would still have the highest tier Cure, an arsenal of Curagas, and the best means of curing debuffs. However, SCH and RDM would be more viable to fill the main healer role with Cure V. To say that WHM is the ONLY job that is allowed to be the main healer is absolutely ridiculous. Would you say that NIN can be the only evasion tank? PLD can be the only defense tank? SAM can be the only DD? BRD can be the only support? BLM can be the only magic DD? No! There are 20 jobs that realistically need to fill about 6 roles. Your stance on main healers right now comes off as extremely stubborn. A main healer is a required role in almost all non-soloable content (and the only reason any content is soloable is because it doesn't require a main healer). To essentially say "You must fill the main healer role with WHM" is the equivalent of saying "You must bring a WHM to everything", which is simply absurd.

THIS. Word by word.

[Helel]

The solution of allowing healing magic and mnd to increase the amount healed by Cure IV is absolutely ridiculous. Why don't you just give RDM and SCH Cure V then...? If you're planning on increasing the amount cured by Cure IV, it would be much easier for you to just give them Cure V and keep Cure IV the same, unless of course you're planning to screw RDMs and SCHs over with some +.01 hp cured per healing magic skill.

Am I missing something here? Why can a job/WHM cure just as well as a RDM or SCH? I don't even play RDM or SCH, but this just seems blatantly retarded to me. Either give RDM and SCH Cure V, or at least allow them access to afflatus JAs.

Oh, I feel like I should also shout the obvious: Cure V is NOT what makes WHM the best healer. It's like I want to tell the devs to just calm down or something, like they're totally freaked out at the idea of giving the spell to other jobs. It's not that big of a deal...

Calm
Down.
It's going to be okay. I promise.

[Seyomeyo]

Hey dev team, I think the community would be a little more open to the idea of RDM and SCH not being viable main healers had they never been viable main healers for their entire existances up until abyssea (read, up until people started to get more and more HP while cure amounts for the above mentioned jobs did not increase. As everybody else said, it's ok to have more than one job be able to fill a specific role. There are 20 jobs in this game. I'm going to withhold judgment until I see what kind of changes come out, but as it stands right now I don't even take out my RDM or SCH for anything at all.

[Vold]

Cure V stuff

Frankly, it sounds damn easier to just give those jobs cure V than to adjust this and that so IV is more powerful.

I'll be straight up. I want cure V for rdm so it can be a viable rep for WHM in Abyssea. Now, notice I say viable. What I mean is, if I feel like playing RDM, I want to be able to do it on just the most trivial of encounters. I'm not asking for RDM main healing Shinryu here. I'm talking viable healing on most "simple" targets that don't require cure5/6 spam but yet cure3/4 spam can't fly. It's not asking for much, and sure it's stepping on WHM toes. But it is right for those jobs to have cure V at level 99. And it's the dev's jobs to keep it balanced. Remove the low enmity for RDM/SCH. Fear of death(weakness downtime) will maintain balance. Or, keep dishing out content that rapes. Whichever works.

[MDenham]

If the plan is to give SCH, RDM, and WHM tiers of a job trait that increases cure potency (note: and is separate from the existing cure potency cap), then the idea of keeping Cure V WHM-only makes sense. Sort of. (This ends up looking weird, though.)

If this happens, here's a suggested level pattern:

Healer's Boon I (+10%) - RDM58/SCH65/WHM80
Healer's Boon II (+22%) - RDM68/SCH73/WHM88
Healer's Boon III (+36%) - RDM78/SCH81/WHM96
Healer's Boon IV (+52%) - RDM88/SCH89
Healer's Boon V (+70%) - RDM98/SCH97

This puts RDM and SCH back into "good enough if you can't find a WHM", but leaves WHM comfortably ahead for most purposes, and smacks everything else /WHM or /RDM entirely out of the running, where it belongs.

[Sasaraixx]

Camate,

I think a key point is being missed entirely. RDM and SCH were asking for Cure V to allow them to main heal parties on the newer content. If the development team is of the opinion that only WHM should be able to main heal, then a lot of time and effort is being wasted on these Cure adjustments.

Yes it is very silly that just about any job who can sub WHM can heal almost as well as a SCH or RDM. You can address that issue, but it will change nothing about either job's problem with a lack of a useful/needed role in a party. The possible changes you mentioned could possibly make the situation even worse (or not help at all.) The MND example isn't particularly helpful b/c unless you gear for it, the MND differences among jobs will not have a large effect. Cure potency gear will always be preferable anyway.

The other problem is by improving the amount healed by Cures III and IV and making these other changes to cure spells, you're actually helping WHM more than SCH or RDM. The reason this is a problem is because the reality of the game at the moment is that back-up healers are rarely ever necessary. I play WHM. I just about never need any assistance with curing. If whatever we are fighting is tough enough that I need help, I would need the assistance of another WHM and not a SCH or RDM. The only support a WHM needs is that of a BRD or COR, (or another WHM) who would ultimately add more utility to the party as a whole.

You've been paying a lot of attention to SCH lately, but aside from the 2-hour spells, not much has really changed. I was hopeful about the Regen changes, but if the position of the team is that you will not provide SCH enough tools (even without Cure V) to main heal a party, then these Light Arts boosts will change very little. Making SCH a little bit better at something that is ultimately not needed is really not helpful.

The issue for me is not the amount of HP cured or the strength of the Regen spells alone. It was about carving out a solid role for the job. (The comment about not giving one job's abilities to others cannot be taken seriously given what has happened to RDM and to a lesser extent SCH.) The areas where SCH and RDM shine are just not needed or effective enough to warrant bringing them.

If the development team is unwilling to bend on this, then it seriously needs to change gears. These Regen for SCH will change nothing. They need to instead focus on providing more useful support spells that are desirable to a party and that when coupled with the job's other abilities, makes for a viable choice to fill a support slot. Healing - DD - Support - those are your choices. You're crossing out the first and the second is not really an option. There have been so many great ideas about adding bonuses to weather spells, giving traits, adding new buffing spells, FIXING THE ANIMUS SPELLS, etc. but we've seen nothing about this.

Enfeebling magic needs to become not just useful but needed if RDM is going to find it's niche in the support role. Dia III is only going to carry the job so far . . . SCH needs better party buffs and the suggested TP debuff. This shouldn't be news to anyone.

The other (terrible) option of course is to increase difficultly on most content so that a WHM cannot main heal a party without the assistance of a back-up healer. Then again, even if that were to be done, do those two jobs bring enough to the table so that it wouldn't be a better idea to bring a 2nd WHM? Right now the answer is probably no.

[Alhanelem]

I know there has been a lot of discussion regarding Regen and Cure V around the forums, so I wanted to pass along feedback that we received from the dev. team that Mocchi posted up earlier today.



In regards to wanting to the ability to cast Regen on alliance members, there have been a lot of people commenting on this, so we will be looking into making this an effect limited to scholar. We are going to need some time to develop and test this out so please give us a bit of time.

Also, thanks a lot for your Regen effect suggestions. We will take them into consideration.

In regards to the topic on Cure V which has cropped up in various other threads, I would like to inform you of our current direction.

We are looking at two main points:

1. The HP recovery amount of Cure III and IV are too low, and it’s hard to keep up with healing
2. Making each job’s specialty stand out more

With the level cap being increased and HP/damage taken amounts increasing, we understand that HP recovery amounts are low; however, we feel that making it possible to have every job that can use cure able to handle things all on their own is a completely different story.

While it’s possible for other jobs to help out with curing and cast support magic, which in turn create conditions making it easier to cure and also reduce the amount of cure-related stress, the job we have designated to be the main healer is white mage. Due to this, we do not currently have any plans of allowing jobs other than white mage to use Cure V.

However, the solution isn’t to limit the functionality of those jobs that assist with curing. So one possibility we’re considering is increasing the influence of the healing skill and MND, as well as increasing the HP recovery amount more than it is currently.

We believe this would involve making adjustments to jobs that have healing skill to improve the amount of HP recovered, but due to the fact that we will also be implementing cure potency equipment, implementing this aspect is simply one issue under consideration.

With that said our goal is not to make it so a certain job’s advantages are given to other jobs so they are able to do the same thing, instead we would like to look into how we can keep each job’s specialties intact and create ways that they can support other jobs.
Giving SCH cure V doesn't take anything away from WHM. They would still have a higher tier cure. For many years, you could invite many jobs to handle a healing role. While WHM would do it best, other jobs could do just fine in a pinch. Now, WHM is vastly superior and any other job just doesn't cut it at all. Increasing stat influence is silly. Just give SCH the spell. Increase the difference between cure V and cure VI, or decrease the difference between Cure V and cure IV.

[Merton9999]

The reasoning for not giving SCH and RDM Cure V sounds like theoretical rubbish to me. It's some perfect ideal about job vision without understanding the fact that people actually want to play and experience a variety of jobs that they took the time to level, gear well, and enjoy playing. The dev team is going to be perfectly content on having a pigeon hole for every job even if in practice 12 of them hardly ever get used for events? Or even 2 of them?

I think it would be wonderful if SCH and RDM had a unique role to fill. Unfortunately I've seen the attempts at this over the last two years. The idea was for SCH to ascertain enmity values and then be able to react on them to balance out hate and battle flow, which would have been interesting if it worked and were valuable. Unfortunately this was introduced into a period where fine control over enmity was absolutely unnecessary and the effects were so low they never made a noticeable impact. I can say similar things about Adloquium and Immanence.

My point is that we are past the threshold of holding out for creativity here. It hasn't worked recently and that's what the people on this message board are telling you. I don't need a message board to read grand artistic visions of the utopian Vana'diel job structure that works out OK in the artist's head but, in the end, doesn't actually ... work.

People that play RDM and SCH just want to play those jobs. I want to do something OTHER than play WHM or level MNK. It doesn't have to be any more complicated or grandiose or visionary or artiste than just letting both of those jobs have a stupid tool they need to be able to function.

As Sasaraixx pointed out the regen changes aren't going to change anything at all. Potent regen from a SCH is unnecessary if there is already a WHM present. If there is no WHM and I am expected to main heal on SCH then I'm not relying on a spell that takes so long to cast I'm afraid someone will die while I'm reapplying it after the 10th time it was dispelled.

At this point I wish they'd leave the visionary stuff for XIV that I don't plan on bothering with and just do what paying fans are asking for in XI.

[Sotek]

Am I missing something here? Why can a job/WHM cure just as well as a RDM or SCH? I don't even play RDM or SCH, but this just seems blatantly retarded to me. Either give RDM and SCH Cure V, or at least allow them access to afflatus JAs.

Please stop bullshitting. I can make a reasonable attempt at main healing on Scholar, risky but we wouldn't exactly wipe. Unless you can show me a Warrior/White Mage main healing for an entire battle, you're completely full of shit. I won't speak for Red Mage, but Scholar at least has +50% Cure potency, Aurorastorm, Stratagems (either practically free cures or +60% cures) and a decent amount of reduced cast time over whatever pathetic job you want to pretend is Curing just as well simply because they have access to the same tier of spell.

I don't know why people still want Cure V. Healing skill and Mind actually meaning something is a perfectly fine solution. The only issue is that it looks stupid for Red Mage and Scholar to have the same tier of Cure as any /White Mage job, but to pretend that having Cure IV is enough to bring a job to the same level as Red Mage or Scholar is just idiotic.
Personally I'd have removed the enmity reduction from Cure V and VI to give Cure V to Red Mage and Scholar (under Addendum: White because it needs something at this point), White Mage would gain a trait that effectively knocks down the enmity gain of all Cure spells; Curaga included. Do I think that's a better solution? Yes, I've posted it about a thousand times, but adjusting the modifiers for Cures can be equally as effective and it's damn sure simpler to implement. Increasing how much Cure III/IV heals is a perfectly suitable fix.

The only thing I can possibly take issue with is them designating White Mage as the sole main healer for this game, but that's already been covered in detail. Scholar at the very least should be able to rival White Mage; no doubt someone will pop in saying that's overpowered because Scholar can take over 20 seconds to swap Arts and cast a nuke as well as a Black Mage, though I hope I don't have to point out the glaring flaw in that.

[Rubicant82]

So what your saying is that you are going to let the WHM puppet have cure five but not the RDM or SCH when WHM has cure six and possible cure seven at 99 or meritable. That sounds to me like the Dev team needs to re-evaluate how the players play and stop trying to force players down one path.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Please stop bullshitting. I can make a reasonable attempt at main healing on Scholar, risky but we wouldn't exactly wipe. Unless you can show me a Warrior/White Mage main healing for an entire battle, you're completely full of shit. I won't speak for Red Mage, but Scholar at least has +50% Cure potency, Aurorastorm, Stratagems (either practically free cures or +60% cures) and a decent amount of reduced cast time over whatever pathetic job you want to pretend is Curing just as well simply because they have access to the same tier of spell.

I don't know why people still want Cure V. Healing skill and Mind actually meaning something is a perfectly fine solution. The only issue is that it looks stupid for Red Mage and Scholar to have the same tier of Cure as any /White Mage job, but to pretend that having Cure IV is enough to bring a job to the same level as Red Mage or Scholar is just idiotic.
Personally I'd have removed the enmity reduction from Cure V and VI to give Cure V to Red Mage and Scholar (under Addendum: White because it needs something at this point), White Mage would gain a trait that effectively knocks down the enmity gain of all Cure spells; Curaga included. Do I think that's a better solution? Yes, I've posted it about a thousand times, but adjusting the modifiers for Cures can be equally as effective and it's damn sure simpler to implement. Increasing how much Cure III/IV heals is a perfectly suitable fix.

The only thing I can possibly take issue with is them designating White Mage as the sole main healer for this game, but that's already been covered in detail. Scholar at the very least should be able to rival White Mage; no doubt someone will pop in saying that's overpowered because Scholar can take over 20 seconds to swap Arts and cast a nuke as well as a Black Mage, though I hope I don't have to point out the glaring flaw in that.

SMN/WHM as an example can heal better than a RDM, and reaches 50% Potency easier too.

[Muras]

I got a few things to say, not all SCH related though.


In regards to wanting to the ability to cast Regen on alliance members, there have been a lot of people commenting on this, so we will be looking into making this an effect limited to scholar. We are going to need some time to develop and test this out so please give us a bit of time.

Don't forget to look into making the BLU cure spells usable on alliance members too. This has also been an issue and brought up many times as well. I mean, you changed DNC heals to work on allies and... Everyone in general... Doesn't make much sense to leave BLU cures alone, especially if you further make changes to Regen.


Also, thanks a lot for your Regen effect suggestions. We will take them into consideration.

Those changes sound like they'd be fun if implemented. In particular, with the Regen+Sandstorm idea, I've had a similar idea where Regen would help boost Max HP since Regen seems to lose it's usefulness when HP is usually cured and topped off with the regular cures. Would definitely be useful.


In regards to the topic on Cure V which has cropped up in various other threads, I would like to inform you of our current direction.

We are looking at two main points:

1. The HP recovery amount of Cure III and IV are too low, and it’s hard to keep up with healing
2. Making each job’s specialty stand out more

...

However, the solution isn’t to limit the functionality of those jobs that assist with curing. So one possibility we’re considering is increasing the influence of the healing skill and MND, as well as increasing the HP recovery amount more than it is currently.

We believe this would involve making adjustments to jobs that have healing skill to improve the amount of HP recovered, but due to the fact that we will also be implementing cure potency equipment, implementing this aspect is simply one issue under consideration.

I'd like to add a little to the first main point, which is that people want Cure V also for the lower enmity it generates. Cure IV generates a lot of enmity when you spam it, especially when you use it with Rapture. If you increase the amount cured by these spells, remember to tweak the enmity that goes along with it.

Also, funny enough I recall cure spells used to be effected more by Healing Magic and MND a very long time ago, before the NA release. I wonder if we'll just be seeing a reversal to those formulas?

[Ophannus]

Be
cause all white mage does is heal? Where scholar nukes as well as black mage, and red mage has tier 4s, and both jobs have limitless mp compared to white mage.

Don't forget WHM buffs WAY better than RDM. WHM nukes are awesome, Banish III and Holy/Holy II do nice damage, cost less MP and are more accurate than RDM nukes(outside of Abyssea too). WHM/SCH also has most of RDMs enfeebles except gravity and tier2s. Sad that the only exclusive enfeebles or buffs the master of enfeebling and enhancing gets is merit spells and refresh2(MEH), but the master of healing gets plenty of exclusive heals and buffs.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Be

Don't forget WHM buffs WAY better than RDM. WHM nukes are awesome, Banish III and Holy/Holy II do nice damage, cost less MP and are more accurate than RDM nukes(outside of Abyssea too). WHM/SCH also has most of RDMs enfeebles except gravity and tier2s. Sad that the only exclusive enfeebles or buffs the master of enfeebling and enhancing gets is merit spells and refresh2(MEH), but the master of healing gets plenty of exclusive heals and buffs.

You forgot WHM is a better melee'r than RDM too, but yeah! All WHM does is cure.... /rolleyes

[Shibayama]

Why does all of this sound familiar... Throngs of people upset that a small handful of people are controlling the outcome of things, often putting the former at a disadvantage.

Hmm.

But in any case, I'm not even a white mage and I'm seriously starting to get fed-up with all of this class warfare that seems to be completely exacerbated by the devs who have done nothing but show they have a feeble paper understanding of the jobs and how they work/should be directed. The whole "Whm can only heal so rdm and sch should exist only to support them in tough fights" argument is totally rediculous, mainly because as many of you have pointed out, WHM is also the best buffer/status remover as well as the best healer with access to many of rdm's toys. Also the truth is almost every group would prefer 2 whms to a whm and a job to make the whm's job abit easier.

The dev's seem to live in an ideal world where you can go any job you want and every jobs bonuses make them worthwhile to have, and having a little bit of everything but not being able to make an impact with it is just as desirable as a job that only has one role but is clearly the best at it. SE usually has no clue how to handle middle of the road jobs (Pup, dnc, rdm, sch, ect) but seems to think that because they can do certain things, it means people will want them, but don't make them powerful enough to make use of some major abilities cuz then the "main jobs" get pushed back. (DNC waltzes for example - them being instant and uninterruptable is enough of a reasoning to make us locked out of healing for 25 seconds but whatever just throw more waltz potency gear our way I bet that'll work.)

And am I the only one getting sick of the "We're gunna add gear to fix the problem" solution going on? How many of you angry rdms and sch's have access to Heka's kalasiris hmm?

[Raksha]

How many of you angry rdms and sch's have access to Heka's kalasiris hmm?

About a dozen kills so far no drop. But of course a guy's mule got 2 of them.

[Fredjan]

In regards to wanting to the ability to cast Regen on alliance members, there have been a lot of people commenting on this, so we will be looking into making this an effect limited to scholar. We are going to need some time to develop and test this out so please give us a bit of time.

Also, thanks a lot for your Regen effect suggestions. We will take them into consideration.

I like this idea. As I said in my main post, should consider Regen V at 99 while they're at it. :p

Healing magic mini-rant:
I deal with a few RDM and SCH that only cure in a Light Staff. They are WAY behind the times, sure. In this stage in the game, any mage that can equip a Surya's Staff/+1/+2/+3 can cap cure potency, thanks to the update.

As for items like Heka's Kalasiris... I personally got a Nefer Kalasiris to ensure I can cap it before I deal with the frustration that is the Voidwatch loot system, although yes in Scholar's predicament, you do need Heka's Kalasiris in the situations where you want to use Aurorastorm+Obi+Twilight Cape+Rapture to maintain 50% potency.

WHM is still the superior healer in all situations, even if SCH and RDM were given Cure V. None of them will EVER reach a WHM's ability to support the party in any serious event, and here's a couple reasons because I'm feeling nice today - even in scenarios where RDM+SCH would have V:
- Barspell potency (plus barspell merits). WHM/SCH has the best in the game, not to mention stuff like Orison Bliaud +2 under Afflatus Solace improving the MDB of the element. Any other job that casts these, as well as any WHM using a support job other than SCH results in inferior potency no matter what. Dare I mention how frustrated I get when a WHM/BLM, WHM/RDM, WHM/SMN, or another mage like RDM or SCH /WHM overwrites my barspells? I cringe to be honest. I feel it's an extremely underrated series of spells sometimes when I see support job discussions for WHM but I digress (as that is another topic so)...
- Shellra V with full merits.
- Cure VI in a pinch - it's an emergency cure outside of Abyssea, and Curaga V's for those even rarer pinches where you'd want to do a mini-Benediction I guess?

Regardless... I never feel comfortable healing unless I'm on White Mage anyways, but when it comes down to it, people should be able to support their healers. The issue at hand is: Just by how much?

RDM and SCH (and even in a way more-so Paladin, for additional hate purposes) DO need their cure abilities strengthened, but I'd settle for something that's not Cure V if it proves to be worth the time. It IS about time these stats were considered more (Healing skill and MND) on spells that aren't Cure V-VI or Curaga IV-V. The only reason they haven't mattered as much is that it takes no effort to reach the "soft cap" on these spells. Once that soft cap has been reached, not much will boost it other than cure potency and day/weather bonuses.

[Motenten]

The end effect will depend on what part of the equation they intend to mess with.

Currently, Power rating is: 3 * (mnd + healskill/5) + vit

While it would be nice at the low end for bump up the effect of healing skill or mnd on the final cure, it will have minimal, if any, effect at the high end. Why is that? Well, that has to do with the scaling.

Tier 1: from minimum cured to the soft cap. This scales at a rate of 2 power per HP for Cures 1/2/3, and 4 power per 3 HP for Cures 4/5 (don't know data for 6). The spells reach their soft cap at the following power ratings:

Cure 1: 60
Cure 2: 110
Cure 3: 180
Cure 4: 220
Cure 5: 320


Tier 2: from soft cap to hard cap. This scales at a rate of 4 power per HP for Cures 1/2/3/4, and 2 power per HP for Cure 5. Hard cap is reached at the following power ratings:

Cure 1: 100
Cure 2: 170
Cure 3: 300
Cure 4: 460
Cure 5: 560

The room for growth is more limited on the lower tier cures, and Cure 5 scales faster than any of the others. How much power is 560 (hard cap for Cure 5)? Well, someone with a cure set with 80 vit and 100 mnd would reach it with 300 Healing Magic skill. In other words, a fairly low bar. You can pretty much sneeze and hit the hard cap for the lower tier cures.

Tier 3: above the hard cap. There is no final cap, but it doesn't matter because the scaling becomes outrageous at this point. Below is the additional amount of power needed to cure 1 extra point of HP for each cure:

Cure 1: 114
Cure 2: 71.33
Cure 3: 31.33
Cure 4: 13
Cure 5: 5.667


So, suppose we take a rdm with capped Healing Magic at level 95 (C-, 340 skill), and change the rate at which healing skill affects cures. Instead of skill/5, make it skill/4. How much extra power is that? 51 extra power. How much additional curing is that? About 4 HP for Cure 4.

Suppose we drop the scale on healing magic all the way down to 1. Full effect. How much extra power, and how much extra healing? 816 extra power. 63 more HP cured per Cure 4. So you could go from a 406 to a 469 (before cure potency) Cure 4. Not that impressive for such a massive increase in power.

However, per Camate:


So one possibility we’re considering is increasing the influence of the healing skill and MND, as well as increasing the HP recovery amount more than it is currently.

Increasing the influence of healing skill and MND increases power, yes, but you have to increase it ludicrous amounts for it to be worth anything at all. The second half, however, implies something more likely to affect the scaling factor.

If they dropped the extreme scaling factors after the hard cap, it's conceivable to get something useful out of it. However to make any recommendations here, we'd need a target amount cured to aim for.

What's top end power? For a whm with capped healing skill (396) and around 90 mnd and 45 in gear, plus 80 vit, it'd come out to 722. For a rdm with capped healing skill (340), 87+45 mnd (lazy, not working out another gear set) and 77 vit, that's 677. Not too far behind, only about 45 points of power.

Current Cure 4 with 677 power is 406 HP, and Cure 3 is 202. Those two spells have to cover what rdm and sch heals for. Cure 5 heals for 710 at that power level.

Cure 5+4 = 1116 HP. Setting an arbitrary goal: Target 2/3 of that value in two cures, so Cure 4+3 should cure for 744. Given that Cure 4 is just about 2x Cure 3, that means Cure 3 should cure for 248 and Cure 4 should cure for 496.

If we change healing magic to scale at /3 instead of /5 (and don't make any change to MND or VIT), that gives us 1 point of power for every point of healing skill, and gains 136 power total. Given the amount healed at the hard cap of 390, we want to add 106 HP cured with the excess (677-460)=217 power, which basically means scaling at power/2 after the hard cap.

A quick check shows base healing with a post-hard cap scale of 2 to be 498 HP cured with 677 power. Post-hard cap for Cure 3 would need to drop from 31.33 to 6.33 to cure 249 at 677 power. Could also shuffle things around in terms of the gain in the tier 2 scaling, rather than letting the scale factor go from 2 to 4 and then back to 2, but that's for the devs to fiddle with.

So the question is, given that rdm and sch aren't getting Cure 5, is a 25% boost in the effective potency of the other cures sufficient to do the job? Rdm would get ~750 Cure 4's with 50% potency; sch could get maybe 850 with weather+gear, and push that up towards ~1350 with strategems.

To me it seems a reasonable target in amount cured for rdm and sch. Honestly, seems bordering overpowered for sch in terms of MP efficiency, but they'll have to deal with the hate from it as well. ... Actually, with strategem use (so ~1350 cured for 80 MP), it would put sch at just a bit above the MP efficiency of a whm/sch's Cure 5 after factoring in AF3+2 pants, so perhaps not quite so overpowered after all.

Anyway, that would be my proffered suggestion for the curing aspect of the potential changes.

[Siiri]

Wow, people really trying to say Holy 2 and Banish 3 are better than Blizzard IV and Thunder IV? I know the math types had red mage as a better per mp healer than black mage for a long time, please don't pretend red mage is in a bad spot for nuking. I have to go to work now so I can't do math on this, but aside from the rare fully solaced holy spells someone please math out banish 3 and holy/holy 2 doing more damage than Blizzard/Thunder IV. And melee damage is irrelevant because any event you HAVE to have a white mage currently on that said white mage would be a fool to be meleeing. Red mages would be too, but you have the delusional almace red mages who think they always have to melee. If you can melee as the main healing mage and melee too, a red mage could do it as well as a white mage.

Oh, and red mage already marginalized white mage once at 75. Apparently SE didn't like that. Scholar would smoke white mage once they get haste from /rdm. White mage had all the barspells, Cure v advantages at 75 and was still left behind in many missions / salvage/ etc because red mage was "so much better" in the eyes of the general populace. My old end game linkshell refused to allow white mages in limbus or salvage, and originally said no white mages in t1 or t2 in einherjar.

[Mizuharu]

How many of you angry rdms and sch's have access to Heka's kalasiris hmm?

I think all of our mages would have about five each by now if the DDs stopped getting them.

[Scuro]

I know there has been a lot of discussion regarding Regen and Cure V around the forums, so I wanted to pass along feedback that we received from the dev. team that Mocchi posted up earlier today.



In regards to wanting to the ability to cast Regen on alliance members, there have been a lot of people commenting on this, so we will be looking into making this an effect limited to scholar. We are going to need some time to develop and test this out so please give us a bit of time.

Also, thanks a lot for your Regen effect suggestions. We will take them into consideration.

In regards to the topic on Cure V which has cropped up in various other threads, I would like to inform you of our current direction.

We are looking at two main points:

1. The HP recovery amount of Cure III and IV are too low, and it’s hard to keep up with healing
2. Making each job’s specialty stand out more

With the level cap being increased and HP/damage taken amounts increasing, we understand that HP recovery amounts are low; however, we feel that making it possible to have every job that can use cure able to handle things all on their own is a completely different story.

While it’s possible for other jobs to help out with curing and cast support magic, which in turn create conditions making it easier to cure and also reduce the amount of cure-related stress, the job we have designated to be the main healer is white mage. Due to this, we do not currently have any plans of allowing jobs other than white mage to use Cure V.

However, the solution isn’t to limit the functionality of those jobs that assist with curing. So one possibility we’re considering is increasing the influence of the healing skill and MND, as well as increasing the HP recovery amount more than it is currently.

We believe this would involve making adjustments to jobs that have healing skill to improve the amount of HP recovered, but due to the fact that we will also be implementing cure potency equipment, implementing this aspect is simply one issue under consideration.

With that said our goal is not to make it so a certain job’s advantages are given to other jobs so they are able to do the same thing, instead we would like to look into how we can keep each job’s specialties intact and create ways that they can support other jobs.

I don't get it... Why make it so we can create a Cure V out of cure potency and mind.... and not give us Cure V.... that just sounds like more worthless effort that achieves nothing. Just seems absurd, unless you make it so I can pop Rapture every 15 seconds...

Also if Cure V is really the spell that makes WHM actually useful, then you guys are doing something wrong with the job, and if its really that big of a deal. Give WHM Cure VII so that you can give Cure V to SCHs, because this is some BS. We are using cures that were useful at 75, which is completely pointless at 90, not to mention Cure IV generates more hate then Cure V, hence why it goes to PLD. Seriously... waita make it so that only WHMs can cure
/slow clap

[saevel]

They need to significantly up the soft / hand caps for Cure I ~ IV and make Tranquil Heart reduce a significantly larger amount of enmity. It's the soft / hard caps that are making Cure IV heal for so little now, a SMN/WHM shouldn't be healing for the same amount as a RDM or SCH, ever.

[cidbahamut]

White Mage ONRY
http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww205/Hoaxster/frog-getout.gif

[HimuraKenshyn]

Knowing how players work in this game give rdm and sch Cure V might as well get rid of the whm class as a main. The devs know it the player base has done that time and time again to other classes for years we exp without whm main at 75. Looks like they dont want a repeat performance lol.

[Dreamin]

I know there has been a lot of discussion regarding Regen and Cure V around the forums, so I wanted to pass along feedback that we received from the dev. team that Mocchi posted up earlier today.



In regards to wanting to the ability to cast Regen on alliance members, there have been a lot of people commenting on this, so we will be looking into making this an effect limited to scholar. We are going to need some time to develop and test this out so please give us a bit of time.

Also, thanks a lot for your Regen effect suggestions. We will take them into consideration.

In regards to the topic on Cure V which has cropped up in various other threads, I would like to inform you of our current direction.

We are looking at two main points:

1. The HP recovery amount of Cure III and IV are too low, and it’s hard to keep up with healing
2. Making each job’s specialty stand out more

With the level cap being increased and HP/damage taken amounts increasing, we understand that HP recovery amounts are low; however, we feel that making it possible to have every job that can use cure able to handle things all on their own is a completely different story.

While it’s possible for other jobs to help out with curing and cast support magic, which in turn create conditions making it easier to cure and also reduce the amount of cure-related stress, the job we have designated to be the main healer is white mage. Due to this, we do not currently have any plans of allowing jobs other than white mage to use Cure V.

However, the solution isn’t to limit the functionality of those jobs that assist with curing. So one possibility we’re considering is increasing the influence of the healing skill and MND, as well as increasing the HP recovery amount more than it is currently.

We believe this would involve making adjustments to jobs that have healing skill to improve the amount of HP recovered, but due to the fact that we will also be implementing cure potency equipment, implementing this aspect is simply one issue under consideration.

With that said our goal is not to make it so a certain job’s advantages are given to other jobs so they are able to do the same thing, instead we would like to look into how we can keep each job’s specialties intact and create ways that they can support other jobs.

So are you guys going to take away Cure 5 and Cure 6 from the PUP? [Incoming lolPUP main healing - laugh all you want but people are reporting from the test server that with the PUP changes, it's looking like more realistic]

[Neisan_Quetz]

I know there has been a lot of discussion regarding Regen and Cure V around the forums, so I wanted to pass along feedback that we received from the dev. team that Mocchi posted up earlier today.



In regards to wanting to the ability to cast Regen on alliance members, there have been a lot of people commenting on this, so we will be looking into making this an effect limited to scholar. We are going to need some time to develop and test this out so please give us a bit of time.

Also, thanks a lot for your Regen effect suggestions. We will take them into consideration.

In regards to the topic on Cure V which has cropped up in various other threads, I would like to inform you of our current direction.

We are looking at two main points:

1. The HP recovery amount of Cure III and IV are too low, and it’s hard to keep up with healing
2. Making each job’s specialty stand out more

With the level cap being increased and HP/damage taken amounts increasing, we understand that HP recovery amounts are low; however, we feel that making it possible to have every job that can use cure able to handle things all on their own is a completely different story.

While it’s possible for other jobs to help out with curing and cast support magic, which in turn create conditions making it easier to cure and also reduce the amount of cure-related stress, the job we have designated to be the main healer is white mage. Due to this, we do not currently have any plans of allowing jobs other than white mage to use Cure V.

However, the solution isn’t to limit the functionality of those jobs that assist with curing. So one possibility we’re considering is increasing the influence of the healing skill and MND, as well as increasing the HP recovery amount more than it is currently.

We believe this would involve making adjustments to jobs that have healing skill to improve the amount of HP recovered, but due to the fact that we will also be implementing cure potency equipment, implementing this aspect is simply one issue under consideration.

With that said our goal is not to make it so a certain job’s advantages are given to other jobs so they are able to do the same thing, instead we would like to look into how we can keep each job’s specialties intact and create ways that they can support other jobs.

Can you ask how is more cure potency gear going to help with the current cap when Whm/Blm/Rdm/Smn/Sch can all cap cure potency now? Even pup gets 34% and no native healing skill or spells...

[HimuraKenshyn]

So are you guys going to take away Cure 5 and Cure 6 from the PUP? [Incoming lolPUP main healing - laugh all you want but people are reporting from the test server that with the PUP changes, it's looking like more realistic]

Lol the puppet can't be forced to stay out of aoe no way will it ever main heal something serious.

[Asymptotic]

This is really all our fault as a playerbase for giving WHM the shaft all throughout ToAU.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Not sure how bad mechanic design is the player's fault...

By bad mechanic design Imo, 2 mage jobs with native healing skill but only one of them was much better at maintaing MP without outside support or resorting to /heal (TaU and earlier only ofc). Blm having no method of regaining MP outside of... aspir, when the majority of mobs don't have mp from being War/war, was also bad design.

[Mizuharu]

So are you guys going to take away Cure 5 and Cure 6 from the PUP? [Incoming lolPUP main healing - laugh all you want but people are reporting from the test server that with the PUP changes, it's looking like more realistic]

The automaton has to follow an AI system rather than being able to hand pick which spell it wants to cast and chain them back to back (Still have a "global recast" timer that they have to wait on to cast another spell.) They're not going to remove Cure V/VI from the Automaton because of that limitation...

Also, qq @ pup not being a real job.

[xbobx]

Pup is far from being able to main heal on anything important. It still does na over cures sadly. The puppet is a whm, so makes sense to have cure 5 and 6.

I think things will be fine if cure 4 is returning 600+ hp with gear and the mind boost. RDM and SCH were never meant to be main healers, only backup.

[Merton9999]

Knowing how players work in this game give rdm and sch Cure V might as well get rid of the whm class as a main. The devs know it the player base has done that time and time again to other classes for years we exp without whm main at 75. Looks like they dont want a repeat performance lol.

This was a simple problem of MP recovery and longevity for WHM and BLM that could have been handled in countless simple ways by the development team at the time. The problem no longer exists for any job. If the current structure is a method to absolve past sins then it is extreme, and continues to leave two healing jobs out the picture instead of one.

[HimuraKenshyn]

This was a simple problem of MP recovery and longevity for WHM and BLM that could have been handled in countless simple ways by the development team at the time. The problem no longer exists for any job. If the current structure is a method to absolve past sins then it is extreme, and continues to leave two healing jobs out the picture instead of one.

The same attitudes that caused the problems in Tau era would cause the problems again today. This game has always followed the same pattern optimize for the best until something better comes along. Players have always found the best way to exploit the game for fastest xp best damage and if your class isn't the flavor of the month your left behind loljob it's been that way since the beginning its still that way today voidwatch and other content try to counter it with gimmicks and I still can't bring my blu lol. Let RDM have a greater cure that rivals the whm the whm as class would be shunned worst than tau why simply we don't even care about xp lost today lol. So yeah the devs have to do something to keep them viable and keep a balance in the act as soon as sch or rdm pass by the whm in curing your not going to see many whm's invited back to party again history will repeat it self this player base has done this over and over again...

[Neisan_Quetz]

Because nothing has changed in the last 20 levels.

[saevel]

The same attitudes that caused the problems in Tau era would cause the problems again today. This game has always followed the same pattern optimize for the best until something better comes along. Players have always found the best way to exploit the game for fastest xp best damage and if your class isn't the flavor of the month your left behind loljob it's been that way since the beginning its still that way today voidwatch and other content try to counter it with gimmicks and I still can't bring my blu lol. Let RDM have a greater cure that rivals the whm the whm as class would be shunned worst than tau why simply we don't even care about xp lost today lol. So yeah the devs have to do something to keep them viable and keep a balance in the act as soon as sch or rdm pass by the whm in curing your not going to see many whm's invited back to party again history will repeat it self this player base has done this over and over again...

Thing is, these players actually want this to happen. They want to be the main healer. They want to replace White Mage, so when the dev team takes steps to ensure this won't happen they freak out.

Solution is simple, give WHM Erase II that removes multiple debuffs based on healing magic skill. Uncap the cureskin effect they get. Lower the MP cost on Cure VI. Then SE might be able to give RDM / SCH Cure V without them overtaking WHM.

[Alhanelem]

Each job with healing abilities should be viable as a healer. It's the other things each job has; SCH's efficiency tools, WHM's barspells, additional status cure tools, and native enfeebles, PLD's tanking abilities, RDM's wide array of debuffs; these are what you choose each job for. There's only so many ways you can fluff up plain healing.

With Solace, every cure is potentially more effective on WHM than any other job at any given amount of cure potency. That won't change just because SCH or RDM or PLD got Cure V. WHM still has the strongest cures, there's no reason not to allow other jobs to learn Cure V.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Thing is, these players actually want this to happen. They want to be the main healer. They want to replace White Mage, so when the dev team takes steps to ensure this won't happen they freak out.

Solution is simple, give WHM Erase II that removes multiple debuffs based on healing magic skill. Uncap the cureskin effect they get. Lower the MP cost on Cure VI. Then SE might be able to give RDM / SCH Cure V without them overtaking WHM.

Wrong.... basically.

[cidbahamut]

Thing is, these players actually want this to happen. They want to be the main healer. They want to replace White Mage, so when the dev team takes steps to ensure this won't happen they freak out.

Solution is simple, give WHM Erase II that removes multiple debuffs based on healing magic skill. Uncap the cureskin effect they get. Lower the MP cost on Cure VI. Then SE might be able to give RDM / SCH Cure V without them overtaking WHM.

Cut the bullshit. We all know White Mage is already OP and handing out Cure V would do absolute nothing to change that.

[Phafi]

How about (at least for abyssea for the moment) a synthetic atma that can only be used by sch, rdm, and pld that allows them to cast cure 5? This may give some variance to the three man empyrean weapon farming groups of NIN WHM WAR. Currently this does not seem as big of an issue in voidwatch, (but that may change?)

[Ophannus]

Wow, people really trying to say Holy 2 and Banish 3 are better than Blizzard IV and Thunder IV? I know the math types had red mage as a better per mp healer than black mage for a long time, please don't pretend red mage is in a bad spot for nuking. I have to go to work now so I can't do math on this, but aside from the rare fully solaced holy spells someone please math out banish 3 and holy/holy 2 doing more damage than Blizzard/Thunder IV. And melee damage is irrelevant because any event you HAVE to have a white mage currently on that said white mage would be a fool to be meleeing. Red mages would be too, but you have the delusional almace red mages who think they always have to melee. If you can melee as the main healing mage and melee too, a red mage could do it as well as a white mage.

Considering that RDM has a C in Elemental and WHM has an A in divine and Afflatus powers up Banish/Holy to do absurd amounts of damage for its MP cost? RDM nukes outside of Abyssea do like 500-800 and usually never land for full on voidwatch unless /SCH and even then, it's not for much. WHM can still land a 1k+ Holy or Holy II.

[Mageoholic]

I am honored you read my post

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/15587-Healing-Magic

Just try not to mess it up, this should be a buff that all healing jobs can enjoy.

[SpankWustler]

However, the solution isn’t to limit the functionality of those jobs that assist with curing. So one possibility we’re considering is increasing the influence of the healing skill and MND, as well as increasing the HP recovery amount more than it is currently.

We believe this would involve making adjustments to jobs that have healing skill to improve the amount of HP recovered, but due to the fact that we will also be implementing cure potency equipment, implementing this aspect is simply one issue under consideration.

The development bros never fail to twist my brain into a pretzel. Why would you have to balance any changes to healing magic against additional cure potency items, when every job that's typically called on to use "Cure" spells for HP recovery purposes can cap Cure Potency or come within 5%?

If the development bros are considering the cure potency of a Samurai/White Mage wielding a Cure Potency +40% spear that is in development, tell them "Please stop it." or perhaps "I know those tiny bottles of White-Out can be tempting, but please don't drink that anymore."

Other than that, a lot depends on what part of the equation is changed. If it's mostly easing the harshness of the soft caps and increasing the effect (or lack thereof, as it is now) of Healing skill, this will be an interesting change.

[Mageoholic]

The reason being is that currently it make no difference if your job has healing skill or not. My BRD heals just as well as RDM, and in 1 level will have better MP longevity then RDM, while providing most of the same buffs as RDM and then its own on top of it. SMN also falls into the same boat.

Increasing the Cure caps based on skill an access to MND+ gear and Healing magic gives jobs with a native healing magic and edge in this. Allowing them to heal for larger numbers (before Cure Potency, and thus after Cure Potency.) Regardless if every job in the game can cap potency or not WHM RDM SCH PLD will all have a slight edge in their ability to heal for larger numbers. Thus setting them apart from the rest.

I really think people truly underestimate just how big of a deal /RDM and 96/48 will be, and what kind of impact it will have on the support section of the game. Without a practical change to Healing Magic anything /RDM essentially becomes a support healer, with haste, and near limitless MP. Jobs like SMN, BLU, COR, BRD can abuse this greatly and jobs like SCH and RDM who are native healers will be pushed even more so into obscurity in the healing arena.

Adjusting caps based on skill is the easiest, fairest and really only way to keep it exclusive to natural healers.

(understanding that /SCH will give B skill and thus allow most jobs to heal for solid numbers still aside, this is a niche thing, and has its own issue with MP longevity being the prime one.)

However in order to maintain low level game balance these skill increases should be taken from level 75+. Any skill gained after 75 should be applied to this, not skill before 75. We know SE already has skill breaks at certain quantities so this wouldn't be hard to change.

For example any healing skill over 276 (A+ cap) adds 1HP healed. This keeps the standard cure III's and IV's essentially locked in at their current capped values for jobs pre 75 and subbing WHM or the like, and allows healing jobs above 75 the ability for increased healing performance.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

SCH as a subjob may up skill to B+ but that will only help Cure III, SCH learn Cure IV at 55 so /SCH it will never be a worthy subjob unless you're WHM or RDM. RDM is the subjob that is too over powered and I don't think SE quite understand that. They're too obsessed with making sure WHM thrashes every job even the ones with native skill in it that they're killing other jobs.

[Merton9999]

For example any healing skill over 276 (A+ cap) adds 1HP healed. This keeps the standard cure III's and IV's essentially locked in at their current capped values for jobs pre 75 and subbing WHM or the like, and allows healing jobs above 75 the ability for increased healing performance.

I agree with this. The biggest worry I'd have if healing skill were to matter is that assisting with cures in Dark Arts when necessary would result in reduced values compared to now, putting SCH's lack of immediate flexibility in an even worse position. As long as any changes to Cure III and Cure IV only allow for an increase in current numbers and not a decrease I'd be fine with this direction. It would be a boon to healing classes only, but not nerf SCH further.

I say fine but only in the end if RDM and SCH can actually perform as adequate healers after the changes. I don't want to replace anyone's WHM, including my own. I want to play with a variety of mage jobs in coming end game content, not just 2. SE's recent attempts to offer uniqueness to RDM and SCH have been entirely out of touch with changes in game content. That's why alterations to MND, healing skill and cure potency have me worried. People will "test" this standing outside their mog house and say it sounds great but in real scenarios I'm skeptical.

This is why I want Cure V added to RDM and SCH - not because I really want that spell, but because it's easy and will work for those jobs. The hysteria insisting that it would suddenly make another job that is incredibly competent at the healing role instantly shunned is mind blowing. It happened during one era of FFXI history for a very specific reason that no longer exists, and quite frankly I never experienced personally on WHM after /SCH became available.

[xbobx]

One thing they could do is give Cure 5 to rdm and sch but change the mnd calculation not to be as effective as whm.

So a cure 5 on rdm or sch with gear caps at 800 while Whm can hit 1k+. Maybe way way back they should have given whm a Cure %+ trait only available as whm main. Would have helped back then since whm was not wanted as a healer it was rdm only. Unless R3 was needed

[Daniel_Hatcher]

One thing they could do is give Cure 5 to rdm and sch but change the mnd calculation not to be as effective as whm.

So a cure 5 on rdm or sch with gear caps at 800 while Whm can hit 1k+. Maybe way way back they should have given whm a Cure %+ trait only available as whm main. Would have helped back then since whm was not wanted as a healer it was rdm only. Unless R3 was needed

We've suggested gimps before... Lower the potency for SCH and RDM, even remove the low enmity if they wanted to.... SE have just decided to bury their head in the sand instead.

[hideka]

two things about scholar right now:
1, Embrava is bugged: it will heal the pulse martello (only healable via quests) and revive all clone wards and regen them to full HP when AOE'd on NPC combatants.
2. Allow storm spells to be cast on Opponents as well as Party members. the utility behind this is lowering the power of incoming magic Example: Rainstorm on ifrit, drops his fire damage down by 10% due to opposing weather
3. Allow us to set up to two Storm spells simultaneously, however, prevent them from being duplicates, and prevent opposing elements from being active at the same time Example: Fire storm + wind storm = OK/ Fire storm + ice storm = not ok/ Fire storm + firestorm = not ok.
4. Increase the stat bonuses from storm surge to +3 per merit, not +3 +1+1+1+1.
5. Change Light arts and dark arts, so that they scale up in potency as you level Example: dark arts at level 30 provides 10% reduction in casting mp recasting, dark arts at 60 provides a 15% reduction, and 90 provides a 20% reduction.

the reason behind number 2 is Scholar lacks a set of exclusive Enfeebling spells ( helicies ARE NOT enfeebles, they are Nukes fused with damage over time effects), i feel it would be a potentially powefull asset to SCH.

the reason behind number 3 is Scholar as a class is HEAVILY reliant on weather effects to preform on par with other classes. having one storm spell active limits you to one elemental school for being most effective. keeping 2 spells up increases your maximum effectiveness by allowing you to have 2 types of spells you can choose from at maximum efficiency

the reason for number 4: +7 on a stat is Meh.

the reason for number 5: due to the addition of elemental celerity scholars cant even keep up with BLM casting speeds using Celerity. its obscene when i can party with a BLM and they can cast two T5s before i can finish casting 1 T5.

[Siiri]

Per no. 5, that was the whole point of the elemental celerity buff to black mages. It was a travesty that scholar casted faster than the specialist in the job. Black mage was really drug down at 75 by slow casting and no mp restoration. Both red mage and scholar significantly outperformed black mage over time due to black mages slow casting and needing to rest.

Besides, don't scholars have celerity to cut their dark art casting time, and penury on the other time? Scholar is supposed to be the strategic mage, it isn't supposed to have more proficiency than black mage and white mage without using strategms.

[Motenten]

Assuming capped healing magic at each level, and level/2 mnd in gear, level information:

[Cure # @level learned, hard cap @level capped]

Whm:
Cure 1 @1, hard cap @13
Cure 2 @11, hard cap @24
Cure 3 @20, hard cap @46
Cure 4 @41, hard cap @69
Cure 5 @61, hard cap @82


Rdm:
Cure 1 @3, hard cap @14
Cure 2 @17, hard cap @25
Cure 3 @26, hard cap @46
Cure 4 @48, hard cap @72


Whm reaches hard cap for a given spell slightly after they get the next tier of spell.

Rdm reaches hard cap slightly later than whm. Rdm tends to hit hard cap for one tier just a couple levels before they get the next spell.


Total gain in HP cured for each spell, from the level learned until lvl 95:

Whm:
Cure 1: 30
Cure 2: 32
Cure 3: 54
Cure 4: 62
Cure 5: 92

Rdm:
Cure 1: 24
Cure 2: 19
Cure 3: 40
Cure 4: 50

What percentage of the total amount gained per spell is acquired by level 49:

Whm:
Cure 1: 87%
Cure 2: 84%
Cure 3: 85%
Cure 4: 19%
Cure 5: --

Rdm:
Cure 1: 88%
Cure 2: 79%
Cure 3: 75%
Cure 4: 0%

So the majority of the potency of cures 1-3 are gained by the subjob cap of 49. The exception being Cure IV since it's learned so close to that level, and which gains only about 50 points of HP healed (~12.5% of its full potency) from the soft cap up to the lvl 95 cap.

Cure amounts for a lvl ~99 character with lvl 49 whm or rdm subjob:
Cure 1: 33
Cure 2: 94
Cure 3: 196
Cure 4: 393

Percentage relative to max cure capacity of rdm or whm at 99 (projected assuming same skill gain rates for 96-99 as for 91-95):
Cure 1: 94%
Cure 2: 97%
Cure 3: 98%
Cure 4: 97%


Therefore someone subbing rdm or whm would get about 97% of the base cured HP as either of the main jobs. Since Power is weighted far more heavily towards Mnd than towards healing skill, the lack of healing skill of a lvl 99 character has almost no detrimental effect. The scaling effect on power past the hard cap further limits any differences in total HP cured.

On the other hand, you still want to ramp up power towards the hard cap quickly enough that the spells are generally useful for lower-level characters.

Since you gain 1-2 points of mnd per level (rough guess, on average, including gear), and (at lower levels) 3 points of skill, stat gain is worth about twice as much as skill gain. To weight that more towards skill than stat...

Reference: Current Power = 3 * (Mnd + HealSkill/5) + Vit
Ok, Power v2 = 3 * (Mnd/2 + HealSkill/2) + Vit

Amount cured by a lvl 49 character (Power v1):
Cure 1: 31
Cure 2: 92
Cure 3: 190
Cure 4: 353 (rdm) / 356 (whm)

Amount cured by a lvl 49 character (Power v2):
Cure 1: 32
Cure 2: 92
Cure 3: 191
Cure 4: 360 (rdm) / 365 (whm)

Amount cured by a lvl 99/49 character (Power v2):
Cure 1: 33
Cure 2: 94
Cure 3: 194
Cure 4: 389 (/rdm) / 391 (/whm)

Amount cured by a lvl 99 rdm:
Cure 1: 36
Cure 2: 99
Cure 3: 206
Cure 4: 417

Amount cured by a lvl 99 whm:
Cure 1: 36
Cure 2: 100
Cure 3: 208
Cure 4: 423
Cure 5: 742

Gives native heal skill characters a bit more of an edge than subjobbing characters, without really penalizing subjobbers. Not enough total gain, though.

Currently, Cures 1/2/3 go from /2 on scale 1 (pre soft-cap) to /4 on scale 2 (pre hard-cap). Cure 5 goes from /(4/3) on scale 1 to /2 on scale 2. Cure 4 uses the 4/3 rate on scale 1 (same as Cure 5), but changes to /4 on scale 2 (same as Cure 3). The relative difference in rate change for Cure 4 and Cure 5 is also different both from each other and from the three lower cures.

Would consider matching them up:

Scale 1 Scale 2
Cure 1: 2 4
Cure 2: 2 4
Cure 3: 2 4
Cure 4: 4/3 8/3
Cure 5: 4/3 8/3


That increases Cure 4's gain rate after the soft cap, but decreases Cure 5's gain rate.

Rdm Cure 4 @49: 375 (up from 353)
Rdm Cure 4 @99: 447 (up from 406 with v1 Power, 417 with v2 Power)
Whm Cure 5 @99: 712 (down from 742 with v2 Power, identical to 712 with v1 Power)


Given the lower soft-cap scale, the previously suggested reduction in the hard-cap scale to 2 isn't needed. The subjobber is just barely hitting the hard cap power level, so any changes for the post-hard-cap scale will pretty much exclusively apply to main skill healers.

Am considering another doubling of the scale at tier 3 for Cure 4. So
Scale 1 = 4/3
Scale 2 = 8/3
Scale 3 = 16/3 (previously 13, or 39/3)

That would give rdm 486 Cure 4's at level 99 (compared to 418 for a 99/49). Whm would get 501.

Of course that gives Cure 4 a slightly better tier 3 scaling than Cure 5. Adjusting Cure 5 to match changes lvl 99 cure from 712 to 722. Seems fine to just let them stay in sync.

Overall increase for rdm is going from 406 to 486, a 20% increase, while streamlining the scaling factors. Healing skill becomes a more dominant factor in the final equation, giving those with native healing skill a decided edge over those who are just using the subjob skill.

What about Cure 3, since a second cure is needed to alternate with Cure 4? Well, speculatively, first going to try adjusting the hard cap scaling factor to match the increase used for Cure 4/5. Since scale 2 is /4, going to /8 for scale 3.

Power v2, default scaling:
99 rdm: 206
99/49 rdm: 194
99 whm: 208
99/49 whm: 195

Power v2, /8 scaling:
99 rdm: 254
99/49 rdm: 209
99 whm: 264
99/49 whm: 211

The target I'd suggested before (~250 cure 3, 500 cure 4) is approximately made with that scale adjustment.

To go along with this, I'd suggest /16 for Cure 2, and /32 for Cure 1. That gives cures at 130 and 54, respectively, for 99 rdm, while keeping subjob cures at just a bit higher than previous.



Final suggested scaling:

Scale 1 Scale 2 Scale 3
Cure 1: 2 4 32
Cure 2: 2 4 16
Cure 3: 2 4 8
Cure 4: 4/3 8/3 16/3
Cure 5: 4/3 8/3 16/3

Using a Power calculation of:
Power v2 = 3 * (Mnd/2 + HealSkill/2) + Vit

And not changing the current cutoffs for soft and hard caps on power per spell, or the initial base offset for the spell.

Scale 1 = before soft cap
Scale 2 = after soft cap, before hard cap
Scale 3 = after hard cap


Healing skill has significantly greater value, Cure 3+4 is sufficient to match Cure 5. Sch's totals will be closer to the whm values here while in Light Arts, and overall can be expected to be bounded by the rdm and whm values given.

To supplement this, sch gets the regen adjustments (I'll make another post on suggested adjustments for the scaling of that), and rdm has an entire thread of suggestions on improvements that could be made to its enfeebling abilities.

[Motenten]

Suggested Regen duration: 144 seconds (exactly 1 game hour), or 48 ticks.

Current HP rate for sch on test server, but assuming 48 tick duration:

Regen 1:
- rate: 21 (22) HP/tick.
- total potential healed: 1008 to 1056 HP.
- MP cost: 15
- HP/MP ratio: 67-70

Regen 2
- rate: 28 (30) HP/tick.
- total potential healed: 1344 to 1440 HP.
- MP cost: 36
- HP/MP ratio: 37-40

Regen 3
- rate: 36 (39) HP/tick.
- total potential healed: 1728 to 1872 HP.
- MP cost: 64
- HP/MP ratio: 27-29

Regen 4
- rate: 54 (58) HP/tick.
- total potential healed: 2592 to 2784 HP.
- MP cost: 82
- HP/MP ratio: 31-34


You can see a noticeably skewed MP efficiency imbalance between the different regens (and that's assuming they have the same durations; given the different durations on the test server, it's significantly worse).

There does not appear to be any valid reason to use different durations for the different spells. 48 ticks (1 game hour) appears to be a functionally useful duration in all cases. Therefore the only adjustments should relate to how much is cured per tick, and how it relates to MP efficiency.

Because the HP/tick rates are (on the test server) fixed increases to the previous non-boosted values, the rate at which higher tiers of the spell gain relative to the MP cost of the spell drops considerably. Regen 1 maintains an extremely high MP efficiency because of its lower MP cost, though it's HP rate increased the most (going from 6 to 22 is a 3.6x increase, compared to Regen 4's going from 34 to 58, a mere 1.7x increase).

In terms of maintaining MP efficiency, you can reach a fairly even scale across the board by changing the HP adjustment from a flat +16 to instead use 2x the base rate (before adding AF3+2 hat).

Regen 1:
- 10 (11) HP/tick
- total potential healed: 480 to 528 HP.
- HP/MP ratio: 32-35

Regen 2:
- 24 (26) HP/tick
- total potential healed: 1152 to 1248 HP.
- HP/MP ratio: 32-35

Regen 3:
- 40 (43) HP/tick
- total potential healed: 1920 to 2064 HP.
- HP/MP ratio: 30-32

Regen 4:
- 60 (64) HP/tick
- total potential healed: 2880 to 3072 HP.
- HP/MP ratio: 35-37


Regen 4 can be capped at 56 (boosted up to 60 with AF3+2 hat), for:

Regen 4:
- 56 (60) HP/tick
- total potential healed: 2688 to 2880 HP.
- HP/MP ratio: 33-35


That gives a fairly balanced effect all around.

Regens provide healing over time, but are also limited by that very fact.

If a whm casts Cure V and needs more cured *right now*, they can toss a Cure IV or Cure VI immediately. They may burn through MP fast, but they can keep casting and piling on more HP cured for as long as the MP holds out. Regens, on the other hand, have a fixed value. If you need more cured *right now*, casting another regen is useless. It just continues at its existing pace.

While the above numbers appear to cure quite a lot, they are spread out over a fairly lengthy amount of time, and potentially don't cure anything if you're not getting hurt (whereas you can just refrain from casting a Cure if someone isn't presently hurt).

What might be a comparable amount cured? A Curaga IV hitting 3 people could cure about 3000 HP in about the same amount of time it takes to cast a Regen (rather than over the next 2 and a half minutes), and (for a whm) for only slightly more MP (100 MP with Light Arts and AF3+2 pants, compared to 73 MP for a Regen 4 from sch).

Given the trade-off of the time it takes to actually receive the HP payout vs the MP spent, it does not appear to be at all unbalanced.

I would thus suggest that this is a far more reasonable and balanced improvement to how regen healing is calculated than that which is currently in place. (excluding possible secondary bonuses that have been suggested, such as regain, crit rate, +max HP, etc).

Edit: game day > game hour

[Heimdall]

No no no no no no no no NO! I've had a lot of respect for a number of calls the XI team has made in the past year or two, but this is one I absolutely cannot agree with. If Cure V was the highest tier Cure spell, I'd say the point is debatable. But the advantage I have with WHM as a healer is not that I can cast Cure V, but rather that I can rapidly jump back and forth between casting Cure V and VI. If SCH and RDM were to be given Cure V, WHM would STILL be the superior healer. WHM would still have the highest tier Cure, an arsenal of Curagas, and the best means of curing debuffs. However, SCH and RDM would be more viable to fill the main healer role with Cure V. To say that WHM is the ONLY job that is allowed to be the main healer is absolutely ridiculous. Would you say that NIN can be the only evasion tank? PLD can be the only defense tank? SAM can be the only DD? BRD can be the only support? BLM can be the only magic DD? No! There are 20 jobs that realistically need to fill about 6 roles. Your stance on main healers right now comes off as extremely stubborn. A main healer is a required role in almost all non-soloable content (and the only reason any content is soloable is because it doesn't require a main healer). To essentially say "You must fill the main healer role with WHM" is the equivalent of saying "You must bring a WHM to everything", which is simply absurd.

that might have something to do with they just changed the dev team sending the one we had to14 and giving us back the old one who were on 14

[Motenten]

Also, Camate, while I realize you may not be a big math-head, when you translate this (you are translating this, right?), please include the mathematical basis aspect rather than just a simple summary of the suggestion. Since the player model of how the game works will of course not fully match the actual game code, in order for my suggestion to make sense the devs have to understand the model I'm using so they can see how it lines up with their own algorithms.

[Motenten]

Also did another review of the numbers to check on MP efficiency of the Cures after the suggested scaling changes, in case that might have a notable impact on the viability.

This change does have an impact on the relative order of MP efficiency. With the current model, Cure 5 is about 19% more MP efficient than Cure 4, and about 27% more efficient than Cure 3. With the suggested revision, Cure 4 is about 8%-9% more efficient than Cure 5, and Cure 3 about identical to Cure 4.

Even so, the change raised Cure 5's efficiency about 2.4%, so it's not really a 'loss'; it's just that the lower tier cures gained a lot more. Given the low-hate nature of Cure 5, I don't think being slightly less MP efficient relative to the lower tier cures is that great a burden to worry about.

[Mageoholic]

That and C5 not only has a higher cure threshold, it also does so with next to no enmity cost. The spell should see some drawback from spaming it. While C3 and C4 might become more MP efficient, they will not be able to see the same kind of spam. The limitations are already in place that keep the efficiency of the spells more or less in check.

[Kristal]

PS. PUP and their Cure VBlindna says Hi!

1. Soulsoother automaton is a WHM.
2. It'll rather open the pod bay doors then cast Cure V/VI (if afflicted with -na curable status effects)

[Alhanelem]

Suggested Regen duration: 144 seconds (exactly 1 game day),?? A game day is slightly less than 1 hour. It's a lot longer than 2 minutes.

[Motenten]

Woops, sorry, that should be 1 game hour. Editing post above.

[CapriciousOne]

So what your saying is that you are going to let the WHM puppet have cure five but not the RDM or SCH when WHM has cure six and possible cure seven at 99 or meritable. That sounds to me like the Dev team needs to re-evaluate how the players play and stop trying to force players down one path.

I couldnt agree more. It seems to me that they are trying to force us down a path that we obviously dont like and been vocal about in an attempt to shut this game down and force us to move to FFXIV. The problem with that is that they fail to realize that not making changes to the game based on how the PLAYERS ACTUALLY PLAY is alienating potentialy Final Fantasy XIV subscriptions. I for one have no intention of buying FF14 with how they are doing this game and the main reason I am even still bothering with this game is already put significant time and money doing so and hate to see both goto waste. I am sure there are many others that feel the same but this outdated vision needs to be destroyed PRONTO.

[xbobx]

get over it people.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

1. Soulsoother automaton is a WHM.
2. It'll rather open the pod bay doors then cast Cure V/VI (if afflicted with -na curable status effects)

1. It's technically not. It casts White Magic it's not a true WHM, same with the BLM who casts DRK moves.
2. My point is just they're wrong with only WHM having it.

[Theytak]

1. It's technically not. It casts White Magic it's not a true WHM, same with the BLM who casts DRK moves.
2. My point is just they're wrong with only WHM having it.

1. It's technically a white mage because SE created it with the intention of having it mimic white mage, and thus gave it white mage spells at roughly white mage levels. Spiritreaver's validity as a blm is more questionable, but aside from absorb int, and now dread spikes/absorb attri, there's nothing it could really be besides blm.

2. I agree

[Smokenttp]

Just stoped by for a random tought but what about a modus veritas effect ja for regen spells?

[Merton9999]

Just stoped by for a random tought but what about a modus veritas effect ja for regen spells?

This has been mentioned a couple times on the SCH board and I like it. The thought was for JA recast on a much shorter timer that could increase potency and decrease duration for any recovery or enhancement over time spell. So you'd be able to choose to use it on Regen if helpful, but also on Adloquium. In addition, if Animus spells were changed to provide enmity increase or decay over time the JA could also be used for that. On a 1 minute timer, you could use this to enhance the effects on maybe 2 or 3 people but not everyone.

[Theytak]

Just stoped by for a random tought but what about a modus veritas effect ja for regen spells?

Kinda similar to what I've been thinking; a Helix-style regen. It'd be a lot more potent than the other regens in terms of hp/tick to make up for the slower tick rate (9~10 seconds instead of 3, unless I'm mistaken about the helix ticks). Similarly, it'd be greatly buffed by mnd and have innate weather/day bonus.

Using the current test server style of helices:
20~39: 30 second duration; 100~200 hp healed; between cure II and III, depending on mnd/skill/cure pot
40~59: 60 second duration; 200~400 hp healed; between cure III and cure IV, depending on mnd/skill/cure pot
60~99: 90 second duration; 400~800 hp healed; between cure IV and cure V, depending on mnd/skill/cure pot

The general idea is that it gives sch a regen that's less "regen" and more "low tier cure spam", healing bigger chunks at a time. I'm not a sch, mnd you, so I have no idea how the hp restored potency I listed compares to typical helix damage, I'm just spitballing, lol

[TimeMage]

What I see more feasible in terms of making Regens more useful is, in addition to having more potent and longer lasting Regens, a JA that instantly heals for the remaining amount of HP the Regen wouls have healed over time. Give it the proper recast (let's say... 2 minutes?), and it lets us heal using regens and cures, while being able to rely on this JA in the "OHSHI..." moments. Well, not all of them, since if timed incorrectly you could spend the JA in just a few ticks worth of HP.

It's been mentioned before, here or in the SCH formus, and I think it would be a really interesting addition to our healing arsenal.

[zell_]

Suggested Regen duration: 144 seconds (exactly 1 game hour), or 48 ticks.

Current HP rate for sch on test server, but assuming 48 tick duration:

Regen 1:
- rate: 21 (22) HP/tick.
- total potential healed: 1008 to 1056 HP.
- MP cost: 15
- HP/MP ratio: 67-70

Regen 2
- rate: 28 (30) HP/tick.
- total potential healed: 1344 to 1440 HP.
- MP cost: 36
- HP/MP ratio: 37-40

Regen 3
- rate: 36 (39) HP/tick.
- total potential healed: 1728 to 1872 HP.
- MP cost: 64
- HP/MP ratio: 27-29

Regen 4
- rate: 54 (58) HP/tick.
- total potential healed: 2592 to 2784 HP.
- MP cost: 82
- HP/MP ratio: 31-34


You can see a noticeably skewed MP efficiency imbalance between the different regens (and that's assuming they have the same durations; given the different durations on the test server, it's significantly worse).

There does not appear to be any valid reason to use different durations for the different spells. 48 ticks (1 game hour) appears to be a functionally useful duration in all cases. Therefore the only adjustments should relate to how much is cured per tick, and how it relates to MP efficiency.

Because the HP/tick rates are (on the test server) fixed increases to the previous non-boosted values, the rate at which higher tiers of the spell gain relative to the MP cost of the spell drops considerably. Regen 1 maintains an extremely high MP efficiency because of its lower MP cost, though it's HP rate increased the most (going from 6 to 22 is a 3.6x increase, compared to Regen 4's going from 34 to 58, a mere 1.7x increase).

In terms of maintaining MP efficiency, you can reach a fairly even scale across the board by changing the HP adjustment from a flat +16 to instead use 2x the base rate (before adding AF3+2 hat).

Regen 1:
- 10 (11) HP/tick
- total potential healed: 480 to 528 HP.
- HP/MP ratio: 32-35

Regen 2:
- 24 (26) HP/tick
- total potential healed: 1152 to 1248 HP.
- HP/MP ratio: 32-35

Regen 3:
- 40 (43) HP/tick
- total potential healed: 1920 to 2064 HP.
- HP/MP ratio: 30-32

Regen 4:
- 60 (64) HP/tick
- total potential healed: 2880 to 3072 HP.
- HP/MP ratio: 35-37


Regen 4 can be capped at 56 (boosted up to 60 with AF3+2 hat), for:

Regen 4:
- 56 (60) HP/tick
- total potential healed: 2688 to 2880 HP.
- HP/MP ratio: 33-35


That gives a fairly balanced effect all around.

Regens provide healing over time, but are also limited by that very fact.

If a whm casts Cure V and needs more cured *right now*, they can toss a Cure IV or Cure VI immediately. They may burn through MP fast, but they can keep casting and piling on more HP cured for as long as the MP holds out. Regens, on the other hand, have a fixed value. If you need more cured *right now*, casting another regen is useless. It just continues at its existing pace.

While the above numbers appear to cure quite a lot, they are spread out over a fairly lengthy amount of time, and potentially don't cure anything if you're not getting hurt (whereas you can just refrain from casting a Cure if someone isn't presently hurt).

What might be a comparable amount cured? A Curaga IV hitting 3 people could cure about 3000 HP in about the same amount of time it takes to cast a Regen (rather than over the next 2 and a half minutes), and (for a whm) for only slightly more MP (100 MP with Light Arts and AF3+2 pants, compared to 73 MP for a Regen 4 from sch).

Given the trade-off of the time it takes to actually receive the HP payout vs the MP spent, it does not appear to be at all unbalanced.

I would thus suggest that this is a far more reasonable and balanced improvement to how regen healing is calculated than that which is currently in place. (excluding possible secondary bonuses that have been suggested, such as regain, crit rate, +max HP, etc).

Edit: game day > game hour

my testing on page 1 (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/15942-dev1029-SCH-Feedback/page1) shows that per tic it would heal for 68hp. all of my testing was done with af3 head on. it was believed to be a 2x increase in potency. but that was done before this most recent test server patch.
im not sure why they decreased the potency. maybe they thought it was too over powered.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

my testing on page 1 (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/15942-dev1029-SCH-Feedback/page1) shows that per tic it would heal for 68hp. all of my testing was done with af3 head on. it was believed to be a 2x increase in potency. but that was done before this most recent test server patch.
im not sure why they decreased the potency. maybe they thought it was too over powered.

Regen V will probably reach 80.

[Lancil]

I apologize for skipping most of this thread, but as a whm I would welcome sch for the super buffed regen. With the enhanced regen per tic and longer duration it would allow me to use lower cures most of the time thus saving more mp. I would gladly welcome these changes and a sch as a support anytime.

As for the whms being able to go between cure V, VI for back to back cures I call BS. I have only used Cure VI once outside of abyssea and the was because 4 and 5 were down and I was solo healing in a low man group. Cure VI is a waste and should never be used outside of abyssea. When I am in an actual party I anticipate the other healers and throw lower cures (3-4) and only cure V when needed because I know they can back me up.

[Smokenttp]

Regen V will probably reach 80.
nice foreshadowing indeed regen V reach 80 (defult is 40)