How about an Enfeebling Magic thread?

[Xtrasweettea]

After lurking the official forums for so long, I've tend to see the same pattern of threads. They are usually in two categories:
1. Give RDM Cure5 (or an equivalent)
2. Boost RDM melee (or something to balance out RDM to make it to where RDMs should be able to melee without breaking the game)

There is a lack of enfeebling threads in comparison lately. It seems that every week, someone borrows the dead horse and beats it until someone else borrows the dead horse to keep beating it. It is literally insane.

Instead of trying focus to get a new cure spells or to boost RDM melee's potential, why not try to do the opposite: bring the mob down to the level of the players through enfeebling magic so that those boosts may not be needed. Why not ask for new enfeebling spells?

I understand that the value of enfeebling spells have reduced, thanks to the mobs not really needing them. Most enfeebles last longer than the mobs themselves (most mobs and bosses can be zerged down), or the enfeebles do not work at all. The alternative would be more potent enfeebles with shorter duration for at least on mobs that can be zerged down.

Here are three examples:

Spell: Pain
Element: Dark
Magic Type: Black
Skill: Enfeebling
Maximum duration: 1:00 earth minute
Cost: ~30 MP
Method of Removal: Erase
Description: Under the affect of Pain, the target cannot benefit from stat modifications to TP moves or weapon skills. The duration will be based on the caster's INT versus the target's magic defense.
*The spell's concept and name are based on Final Fantasy 8's status ailment called Pain. Under that Pain, the target could not perform any attack that were not magic.*


Spell: Sadness
Element: Water
Magic Type: Black
Skill: Enfeebling
Maximum duration: :30 earth minute
Cost: ~40 MP
Method of Removal: Erase
Description: Under Sadness, the target will not be able to gain TP at a normal rate. Instead the rate of TP the target will be able to gain will be half. The duration is based on the caster's INT versus the target's magic defense.
*This spell's concept is based on Final Fantasy 7's Sadness status ailment. In Final Fantasy 7, Sadness would cause a reduction growth of the Limit Break bar, but in return, the target's defense would increase.*

Spell: Heat
Element: Fire
Magic Type: Black
Skill: Enfeebling
Maximum duration: 1:00 earth minute or until a TP move/WS is performed
Cost: ~100 MP
Method of Removal: Erase or perform a TP move/WS is performed
Description: Under the status of Heat, if the target were to perform a TP move or WS, the target would receive damage based on as if the action was performed against itself divided by two (round up). The defenses of the user of the TP move or WS would have their base stat modifiers at defenses. Any modifiers such as magic defense or immunity to a specific element would not be calculated (since, in theory, the target is over-exerting itself to perform the TP move or WS). Any spell that does a flat damage or does not take defense into account (such as 1,000 needles), then the damage done to the performer of the TP move or WS is divided by two (rounded up). In the order of stacking, Heat would activate after the target has performed the TP move or WS. Heat will not prevent the mob from doing it.
*Heat's concept came from the status ailment Heat from Final Fantasy 9. In Final Fantasy 9, those under Heat would be instantly KO'd if they performed any action.*


I know the above are not perfect, but I would like to see discussion on how the spells could be made better. Who knows, maybe the spells (or something similar) could be made into the game (the same way Temper found its way into the game).

I would like to see news enfeebling spells for RDM. Being able to knock the mob down a few pegs is what I enjoyed doing as RDM.

I look forward to the discussion.

[Hashmalum]

It was mentioned a while ago that RDM was supposed to get a Gravity II at some point that had a higher -evasion effect, but we've seen nor heard any trace of it since. That's nice, but it isn't anywhere near enough. Here are some other things that we need:

1) Dispel II and/or Dispelga. We were the first job to get a dispel at all (BRD has to wait a level, and SCH only got it at a later date and then only if they spend a charge on it). It's one of the most basic enfeebling tasks there is. Enfeebling magic is the thing we're best at. And yet now we lag pathetically behind at it. DRK can not just dispel a buff, but grab it for itself. BLU can do the same thing, do AoE dispels, has both light and dark based dispels, and can have up to four different spell timers so they're never waiting on a recast. SMN can dispel 2 buffs and AoE to boot.

But wait! Not only have we been outclassed in dispelling by other jobs, but by the monsters as well. Try keeping Glavoid clean of buffs with just RDM; you'll be spamming Dispel for a full minute trying to keep up every time he does that move where he steals all buffs from everyone within range (and that's without even trying to recast any of the buffs he just wiped). Mobs have gotten buff moves that add multiple buffs, add undispellable buffs, steal multiple buffs, etc. The bottom line is we need more and better dispel spells just to keep pace.

2) Something, anything, to impede a mob's special moves. When you are fighting one of the new mob types whose "normal" attacks are really special moves, the staple debuffs Slow and Paralyze do absolutely nothing against it. Nor can you do anything to do stop mob ranged attack moves because those too are considered special (meanwhile, player ranged attacks get stopped by Paralyze just fine...)

3) Virus. The spell already exists in-game and is used by two NMs. Just let us have it already.

[Seriha]

I still want to see a debuff that effectively levels down the target, and with that all stats and possibly removing a trait or spell from their arsenal if the level is thusly moved below. And since having multiple RDMs in an alliance for debuffing purposes is often pointless, I'd like this spell to take a page from DNC steps and have levels where multiple casts add to the effect, most likely 1 level per successful land with a cap of 5. Recast could probably be around 45s.

Actually, I'd like the potency building mechanic added to all of our debuffs, job exclusive sort of like how people /SCH can't get Regen boosts with Light Arts. Saboteur could also be tweaked to land whatever at its max level along with the current boosts.

But really, pick a stat, and you can probably make a debuff for it if there isn't one already. Some would be more useful than others, sure, but having options for those niche scenarios would be nice.

[Xtrasweettea]

Dispel II and/or Dispelga
I would like an improved Dispel or a modification to improve Dispel. With some of the mobs in voidwatch I have encounter, some of the buffs they perform can not be Dispelled (exampled, the Cursed Spikes on the Behemoth in VD).


Virus
I agree, it would be nice to get that spell in our books also.


I still want to see a debuff that effectively levels down the target, and with that all stats and possibly removing a trait or spell from their arsenal if the level is thusly moved below.
I do not see a difficult implementation of it, at least math wise. It would be interesting to see if something like this were to be implemented. A spell used by monsters (and I believe it was Blue Magic) called "Discord" would cut the target's current level in half. Discord appeared in Final Fantasy 6. So, historically it can be done.

[Motenten]

Thoughts on enfeebles:

A change that I know will never happen due to the work involved (and thus I also haven't tried to work out all balance implications), but would probably make balancing a number of things in the game easier:

Remove the spell Silence. Replace with Addle (version 1) at around level 15-20 (comparable to when Silence is normally learned), add Addle II at around 60-75 (rdm only), and allow stacking with brd's new song.

Addle would have a flat m.acc reduction, extremely powerful when first learned due to the relative values involved (and because it would have to be comparable to the usability of Silence at low levels), but declining to a minor effect at higher levels. Addle II steps things up for rdm. Pining Nocturn would be closer to Addle's power; combining Addle with Nocturne would give an effect comparable to Addle II, and combining with Addle II would give a decent boost to the overall effect.

Not sure if/how it should affect the recast time on a Chainspelling mob.

Silence would be a powerful high-level enfeeble, since it's essentially a maxed-out version of Addle. (Part of the problem in adding Addle now; we got the strong version as a low level spell, and are getting the weak version as a high level spell because the low level spell was too unbalancing, and they had to make too many mobs immune to it).



Other enfeeble ideas:

Anti-Temper: A debuff to reduce multi-attack proc rates, whether double or triple attack. Obviously can't go below 0.

Plague: Typical desired enfeeble. Reduce TP gain by ~5/tick. Against a player, that can strangle their TP gain rate; against a mob with multiple players beating on it, it's mostly only a minor speedbump. Against a Subtle Blow-heavy single player (eg: Footwork mnk), conceivably all TP gain could be negated. Would need work on finding an appropriate balance.

Confusion: Change currently active target randomly to the second or third person on the hate list; if 6 or fewer people to choose from, may still target the #1 on hate list. Obviously has no effect if there's only one person on the hate list. Difficult to use in low-man situations, but more useful in larger groups.

'Hesitation': Reduce the chance the mob will choose to use a TP move, including for the "always at 100 TP" period under 25% HP.

Dispel II/Dispelga: aggree with Hashmalum on these.


On the idea of "high level" enfeebles, perhaps something could be done similar to blu's Unbridled Learning (which is itself similar to sch's Addendums) -- a 5-10 minute recast JA that allows access to certain powerful enfeebles such as Silence (which could actually land on NMs, but may have a relatively short duration such as 30 seconds), Amnesia or Terror. 5 minute recast if it allows you to use one spell of choice, 10 minute recast if it gives you a window to cast several spells.

The above suggested "Heat" would probably also fit in the high-level enfeeble block.


And yes, some sort of 'Enfeebling Mastery' trait which increases potency of enfeebles at progressively higher rates. Can get tiers at level 25, 50, 75 and 99. Have it something like (arbitrary numbers): Skill/40 at tier 1, Skill/28 at tier 2, Skill/20 at tier 3, Skill/14 at tier 4, as bonus effect to the spell's potency.

[Hashmalum]

I would like an improved Dispel or a modification to improve Dispel. With some of the mobs in voidwatch I have encounter, some of the buffs they perform can not be Dispelled (exampled, the Cursed Spikes on the Behemoth in VD).The problem with Curse Spikes is that isn't really a spike status--in fact, it isn't a status at all. It's actually more along the lines of a trait, like the "Player Killer" trait some monster TP moves give. Changing Dispel to be able to remove it would be a major change. I don't think we'll ever see Dispel changed to be able to remove traits; best we can hope for with regard to Curse Spikes is to get them to make it an actual status, which would make it potentially dispellable.


I do not see a difficult implementation of it, at least math wise. It would be interesting to see if something like this were to be implemented. A spell used by monsters (and I believe it was Blue Magic) called "Discord" would cut the target's current level in half. Discord appeared in Final Fantasy 6. So, historically it can be done.It was in FF5 too as Black Shock. Once again though it was a blue magic. Also the time magic Old gradually lowered levels. Although given that SCH is the poor man's Time Mage here, again precedent is not encouraging as to us getting it.

[saevel]

Not to sound like a wet blanket, but all these idea's are potentially game breaking if applied to NM's. And SE doesn't particularly like us breaking NM's, so don't expect any of them to work on NMs. Like I've said in previous threads, make simple things, the more simple it is, the less variables and factors involved, then less room SE has to screw it up.

Anything that stops TP moves is out the windows, its how SE keeps us in check. Anything that hinders monsters casting is also out the window for the same reason. Anything level based wont work, player vs monster level determines too many things to allow a player to change it.

[Ketaru]

Anything that stops TP moves is out the windows, its how SE keeps us in check. Anything that hinders monsters casting is also out the window for the same reason. Anything level based wont work, player vs monster level determines too many things to allow a player to change it.

That's reasonable enough, but perhaps they could take a page from what they did with Addle then. Why not a spell that increases the charge up time of mob abilities and also directly reduces the damage dealt by said abilities by a flat 10%? Increased charge time could give more time to Stun, and not gimp the mobs that are immune to Stun. Would work very much in the same way Addle does, at the very least giving groups a little more time to shore up defenses when they see an ability coming.

[Ophannus]

Hinder: Increases the amount of TP required to use a special move.

When used on a mob, the amount of TP required for them to use a special move is increased by 30-75% which means less frequent special moves. Below 25% HP this means the mob will need a minimum of up to 175% TP to execute a TP attack instead of the usual 100%.


Dispel should get a bonus with Enfeebling Skill so that every 100ish Enfeebling Skill, Dispel will remove another debuff (RDM main only). We don't need to waste another spell slot on a tier 2, just make it scale like how Bio and Elemental Debuffs and Enhancing spells do with skill.

Poison III would be welcomed because 10-11/tick isn't much now that most NMs have 150k+HP now, besides BLU's Disseverment poison is already 16/tick.

[Kristal]

Changes to group 2 merit spells would be nice too. Likely actually being able to cast full duration/effect Phalanx II, Bio III and Dia III... I'm actually missing Dia III and Bio III because I took Phalanx II to 5, and I rather have 4/6 spells then 1.4/6 spells...

[saevel]

Changes to group 2 merit spells would be nice too. Likely actually being able to cast full duration/effect Phalanx II, Bio III and Dia III... I'm actually missing Dia III and Bio III because I took Phalanx II to 5, and I rather have 4/6 spells then 1.4/6 spells...

Screw Bio III but for gods sake get Dia III to at least 2/5. Dia III is your best enfeeble, it's worth more then Slow II and Paralyze II put together. Phalanx II is very bleh due to scaling issues. Your better off going /SCH and accessioning Phalanx.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Screw Bio III but for gods sake get Dia III to at least 2/5. Dia III is your best enfeeble, it's worth more then Slow II and Paralyze II put together. Phalanx II is very bleh due to scaling issues. Your better off going /SCH and accessioning Phalanx.

Who needs choice when you can be told what to get....

[Mirabelle]

Anything that stops TP moves is out the windows, its how SE keeps us in check. Anything that hinders monsters casting is also out the window for the same reason. Anything level based wont work, player vs monster level determines too many things to allow a player to change it.

I have a little spell called Delta Thrust on BLU. While it doesn't work on all NM's it does work on many. No reason RDM can't get a TP reduction enfeeble as well. SE will just make sure most serious NM's will be immune to it.
And Addle definitely works on lots of NM's so not sure how you think these things are game breaking.

[saevel]

I have a little spell called Delta Thrust on BLU. While it doesn't work on all NM's it does work on many. No reason RDM can't get a TP reduction enfeeble as well. SE will just make sure most serious NM's will be immune to it.
And Addle definitely works on lots of NM's so not sure how you think these things are game breaking.

Ok let me make it nice and bold,

Anything that stops TP moves is out the windows, its how SE keeps us in check. Anything that hinders monsters casting is also out the window for the same reason. Anything level based wont work, player vs monster level determines too many things to allow a player to change it.

This is in reference to NMs, the same NMs that make most enfeebles useless.

[saevel]

Who needs choice when you can be told what to get....

You have these choices,

Dia III
Bio III
Blind II
Paralyze II
Slow II
Phalanx II

Out of those, Blind II is useless. Bio III is only good at 5/5 for really long solos. The leaves Paralyze II / Slow II / Dia III for enfeebles and Phalanx II for buffs. Out of all those Dia III is the most potent and useful. Phalanx is only good at 5/5, so using it requires you to dispose of Slow II / Paralyze II.

[Neisan_Quetz]

3 Dia 1 slow 1 para 5 phalanx 2.

[Xtrasweettea]

Not to sound like a wet blanket, but all these idea's are potentially game breaking if applied to NM's. And SE doesn't particularly like us breaking NM's, so don't expect any of them to work on NMs. Like I've said in previous threads, make simple things, the more simple it is, the less variables and factors involved, then less room SE has to screw it up.
I agree with simpler math reduces the chances of programming errors. I also agree with TP moves can't be stopped (though Paralyze can stop TP moves).

Though, there are examples of spells out there that other classes have access to that act as speed bumps for the foe when building their next TP move. One example is Absorb-TP. It damages the target's current TP and gives the caster an equal value of TP to the caster. So, asking for a TP hindering/damaging move is not too far left field to request for. The math can be made pretty simple.

Yes, I have suggested a spell that might seem game breaking: Sadness. So, If you don't mind, saevel, I would like to see how you can make this spell idea fit into what your view would be a proper spell to cast on an NM.

Spell: Sadness
Element: Water
Magic Type: Black
Skill: Enfeebling
Maximum duration: :30 earth minute
Cost: ~40 MP
Method of Removal: Erase
Description: Under Sadness, the target will not be able to gain TP at a normal rate. Instead the rate of TP the target will be able to gain will be half. The duration is based on the caster's INT versus the target's magic defense.

The mentality I was going under was short, intense enfeebles. Your view could be what can balance it out. I am curious to see what you have to suggest. I look forward to your response, if you chose to participate.

[Ophannus]

Phalanx II comes in handy in situations where you can't come /SCH though. To be honest with the ease of EXP gain these days I change my merits daily since I have nothing to spend merits on anyway. If I'm gonna cleave, I'll go 5/5 Phalanx. If I'm gonna burn some empyrean weapon NMs, I'll remove Phalanx 2 and put them in Dia III. etc..

[Defiledsickness]

game breaking.. what? you know addle lands on almost every mob right? (even Pil) it slows the mobs casting time so you can easily stun it's spell. and ya blu has about 4 or 5 spells to lower TP. i would think an amnesia spell similar to the current Break spell would fit nicely tho.

as for merits i just put 5/5 slow2 as it will typically land on most nms and slow is always nice. normally when i play rdm its just for VW or Abyssea so we need the mob alive for triggering. however pil really is a pain :P

[saevel]

game breaking.. what? you know addle lands on almost every mob right? (even Pil) it slows the mobs casting time so you can easily stun it's spell. and ya blu has about 4 or 5 spells to lower TP. i would think an amnesia spell similar to the current Break spell would fit nicely tho.

as for merits i just put 5/5 slow2 as it will typically land on most nms and slow is always nice. normally when i play rdm its just for VW or Abyssea so we need the mob alive for triggering. however pil really is a pain :P

Addle ends up being something like 12~20% on NMs.

Our enfeebles destroy normal mobs, I know this as I've gone Ichi -> Ichi whole holding the mini-Dragon pets of the new Tiamat VWNM. SE has nerfed them into oblivion on HNMs because of people like Avesta. Applying everything we have at max potency would make any NM significantly easier then it currently is, SE doesn't' like that.

[saevel]

I agree with simpler math reduces the chances of programming errors. I also agree with TP moves can't be stopped (though Paralyze can stop TP moves).

Though, there are examples of spells out there that other classes have access to that act as speed bumps for the foe when building their next TP move. One example is Absorb-TP. It damages the target's current TP and gives the caster an equal value of TP to the caster. So, asking for a TP hindering/damaging move is not too far left field to request for. The math can be made pretty simple.

Yes, I have suggested a spell that might seem game breaking: Sadness. So, If you don't mind, saevel, I would like to see how you can make this spell idea fit into what your view would be a proper spell to cast on an NM.


The mentality I was going under was short, intense enfeebles. Your view could be what can balance it out. I am curious to see what you have to suggest. I look forward to your response, if you chose to participate.

This is essentially -Store TP 50. On any NM that actually used the TP counter to perform their special moves (there are many that can just do it whenever they want without TP) this would break them, especially if it lasted then entire fight. Cut the duration to the standard 3 min and the potency variable based on dINT. 50% is too high a cap on NMs for SE not to nerf the living sh!t out of it. Possibly 25 ~ 35% would be the most likely target, it slows down the NM enough to actually be somewhat useful while not disabling it or crippling it.

[Airyl]

Addle ends up being something like 12~20% on NMs.

Our enfeebles destroy normal mobs, I know this as I've gone Ichi -> Ichi whole holding the mini-Dragon pets of the new Tiamat VWNM. SE has nerfed them into oblivion on HNMs because of people like Avesta. Applying everything we have at max potency would make any NM significantly easier then it currently is, SE doesn't' like that.

I think that SE just needs to get off it's period about it's NMs. What's so wrong with gradually building resistance and giving them a bit more HP if they want it to be hard? You can't solo it for a month that way and it let's us not feel like idiots for leveling a job and then being told "NOPE, CAN'T USE ANY OF THE TOOLS THAT ARE YOUR SPECIALTY!!"

Unless I'm missing something glaringly obvious here? ;p

[SpankWustler]

I agree with simpler math reduces the chances of programming errors. I also agree with TP moves can't be stopped (though Paralyze can stop TP moves).

Actually, paralyze can stop everything but TP moves. Paralyze doesn't stop a player's weapon skills, either. It's weird to think about, considering these two things are the most complex physical movements in all of Final Fantasy XI, but that's how Paralyze rolls.

I think an Addle-like enfeeble would be a nice way to deal with TP gain and TP moves. Rather than crippling the monster's TP move damage or TP gain, it could just be a mild to moderate penalty to both. This would also make the spell more useful against monsters who gain TP mostly through regain, or simply don't need TP to use their super-secret special moves.

More than anything, however, the developers just need to realize that nobody wants to enfeeble critters that any bro with a particularly pointy stick could kill in 15-60 seconds; people want to enfeeble Notorious Monsters.

Or they could just introduce Dia IV and then go build a fort out of their desks and take a nap in it. That sounds a lot more likely.

[Septimus]

I like the idea. SpankWustler is absolutely correct- enfeebles do not matter for trash mobs, trash mobs die in mere moments. RDMs need desperately need new enfeebles (that actually land) to have a seat at the HNM table.

Honestly, I don't think that Sadness would be too broken to use on HNMs if they made the potency based off of dINT instead of the duration. (Like Slow's potency is based off of dMND.) Go from Store TP -10 on the low end to -50 on the high end and it would be useful but not game-breaking. (Besides, it seems like every new monster added anymore has Auto-Regain.)

Pain is a great concept, but to be a plausible spell that they would implement I think that it would be a reduction in the computation of statistical modifiers for TP moves, not a flooring. Maybe go from -25% to -75% depending on dINT. Once more, it will have an effect on HNMs, but it won't be a "press button kill NM" type thing.

Heat sounds nifty, but it would have to be heavily nerfed if it was added to the game. They would probably make NMs would maybe take 10%, HNMs maybe 5% if that making the spell fairly useless.

But really, RDM needs more outside of the box thinking like this in order to be a productive job again.

[Hyrist]

Personally, priority wise, I beleive something to address TP moves that are actually happening need to come first and foremost.

Something that addresses the damage dealt in particular for high damage or AoE type attacks are preferable. TP Reduction spells are already in existence, and Addle does provide some magical accuracy loss.

But there needs to be a stronger presence against the actual moves/attacks themselves and this is where we're lacking the most, defensively.

I would, however, like to see a revisiting in offensive debuffs. Things that reduce Magical Defense, or increases the Rate/Damage of Critical hits based of of a magical debuff in spell form would be very welcomed as we don't have much aside from Dia tiers in terms of increasing damage for the party.

It would also regard issues in our support/buff line where we run into the debate against cycles, spheres, and aga spells. If we had debuffs that helped offensively instead of a buff, we'd have a stronger support role for HNM game just off of that.

Most importantly, these debuffs need to be RED MAGE ONLY Sharing them with other jobs is what takes our specialty away from us, SE. Saboteur is not enough to handle this issue.

Pretty much regarding TP attacks, however, is first priority. Something that's passive and allows the TP move to happen, but to noticeably lesser effect overall. After that point our library should be ok to slip into more offensive enfeebles.

[Ketaru]

Most importantly, these debuffs need to be RED MAGE ONLY Sharing them with other jobs is what takes our specialty away from us, SE. Saboteur is not enough to handle this issue.

We're probably going to get Addle II and Suchandsuchnewdebuff II in the next line of merits (who wants to bet Gravity II is going to be in there?). And to them, that's what makes it all A-OK. Even though it will boil down to meriting what is most efficient as opposed to having the full range of new spells and not having to choose at all.

Let's face it. None of us worth our merit chose to learn Blind II. But if I didn't have to choose at all, absolutely I would use it because there would simply be no reason not to. If you ask me, I say they just remove the Category cap on Category II merits and let everybody learn all of their abilities/spells/traits.

[Economizer]

I think an Addle-like enfeeble would be a nice way to deal with TP gain and TP moves. Rather than crippling the monster's TP move damage or TP gain, it could just be a mild to moderate penalty to both. This would also make the spell more useful against monsters who gain TP mostly through regain, or simply don't need TP to use their super-secret special moves.

Plague comes to mind, but if you wanted to make something more like Addle, it would probably have an effect of slowing the ready time for TP moves (of course, then SE could just spam mobs that don't ready TP moves like they do already).


Or they could just introduce Dia IV and then go build a fort out of their desks and take a nap in it. That sounds a lot more likely.

It's funny, because as a White Mage, the spell I'm most jealous of that Red Mage gets is Dia III. I wonder if Saboteur increases Dia's defense down effect. Dia IV would probably do something in the range of ~20-25% defense reduction depending on Saboteur's effect. Or perhaps even a 50% reduction that decays rapidly to the baseline reduction.

Of course, while SE is at it, they should make all of the merit spells learnable, and just have the effect for each tier boosted by merits. This would be the single easiest way for Red Mage to receive a nice power boost (and while we're at it, Phalanx II should be learned at full potency and not be merited at all, considering Scholar).

As with any tread related to buffing Red Mage's enfeebles, Red Mage should get a boost to Dark Magic skill, since this opens up more Dark Magic based enfeebles. While we're at it, the elemental debuff spells should be considered for Red Mage, even though they scale pretty horribly.

And if the reason Red Mage hasn't gotten buffed is a fear of soloing, then the solution is simple: give Red Mage the enfeebling equivalent of Bully - the more people you have in your party, the more effective your enfeebles are, even against NM mobs.

[Xtrasweettea]

This is essentially -Store TP 50. On any NM that actually used the TP counter to perform their special moves (there are many that can just do it whenever they want without TP) this would break them, especially if it lasted then entire fight. Cut the duration to the standard 3 min and the potency variable based on dINT. 50% is too high a cap on NMs for SE not to nerf the living sh!t out of it. Possibly 25 ~ 35% would be the most likely target, it slows down the NM enough to actually be somewhat useful while not disabling it or crippling it.
Thank you saevel for the perceptive. I appreciate it. I can see that the original spell's strength may have been on a one way trip to Nerfville. The potency of the TP gain loss I can agree with. It seems more realistic. Again, I appreciate it.


Pain is a great concept, but to be a plausible spell that they would implement I think that it would be a reduction in the computation of statistical modifiers for TP moves, not a flooring. Maybe go from -25% to -75% depending on dINT. Once more, it will have an effect on HNMs, but it won't be a "press button kill NM" type thing.
I appreciate the input. I wanted to see a spell that could reduce the strength of TP moves, though what to chose to modify in the damage formula that wouldn't break the game is always tricky. Thinking about what you said, your logic make sens, and I agree with it. It doesn't seem to break the game. Not to mention, whatever we can do the to the mob, we can receive ourselves (mobs being able to cast Pain... or worse, Painga on unsuspecting players). So, this wouldn't hurt players to badly either.


Heat sounds nifty, but it would have to be heavily nerfed if it was added to the game. They would probably make NMs would maybe take 10%, HNMs maybe 5% if that making the spell fairly useless.
Yeah... it is one of those "toy spells" that I wouldn't mind having. Actually reducing the damage down the targets receive may be a good idea. As I said above, anything RDMs can cast, enemies will be able to give (or give the area version... Heatga). I wouldn't want an Ukon WAR to get too much damage while under this ailment (or anybody else for that matter). In Abyssea it may not be so bad, but outside (like doing Voidwatch), I could be pretty bad.


But really, RDM needs more outside of the box thinking like this in order to be a productive job again.
I agree. I look forward to seeing more ideas and challenge what has been presented (like debating). I try my best to think outside the box. I really can't think inside of it, that is where I store my stuff.

[saevel]

Dia IV .... I can only dream ....

[Kuvo]

Merit2 does need to be redone. I don't feel that spells like bio3,dia3, and so on are at their base less then their 2 version is acceptable. Just unlocking all the merit2 spells for us should already be much stronger then their earlier counterparts. And let us decide to merit them as such to make them even stronger.

Adding more enfeebles is all good and well but when all the NMs and higher lvl mobs are immune to them then whats the point. If SE would stop the NM immune to all RDM debuffs and would make our enfeebles job specific then we would actually have some use in this new end game era. Adding new spells is always welcome and gear that enhances those make it more to be desired.

Cure 5 - yes please, enfeebles able to be used again - yes please, enhancing party more usefull - yes please.. thank you... oh wait didn't i just describe what a RDM is used for in all the other FF games that had a RDM? (or close to it). I have a better idea. If SE won't give us back our worth then just delete the RDM totally and make another Melee job that can't cast any magic or perform skillchains since both are obsolete anyway. A new melee job discription that reads "I hit stuff with this stick, then I hit stuff with this other stick, then i hit stuff more."

[Economizer]

Yeah... it is one of those "toy spells" that I wouldn't mind having.

White Mage gets tons of toy spells, why not Red Mage? :p

Seriously, White Mage got Holy II on principal, not because White Mage got a real buff to nuking. Red Mage could probably use a few spells to fit this too... some sort of advanced paralyze spell that makes the mob hit itself and is affected by paralyze merits would be a nice start, even if it didn't work on NM.

[Quetzacoatl]

Great idea for a thread. I've always had this thought for an Enfeeble:

Spell: Seizure
Element: Thunder
Type: Black Magic
Description: "Sends the target into a self-inflicting mental shock."
Effect: Occasionally damages itself when trying to attack its target.
Effect Activation Rate: 20%~25%, 30~35% with Saboteur
Duration: 1 minute 30 seconds unresisted, 3 minutes with Saboteur unresisted
Modifier: INT
Removed by: Erase

A Enfeeble with a damaging effect caused by a monster's own means would be pretty cool to see personally, not to mention having it be a Red Mage-specific Thunder-based Enfeeble to make Thunder Staves worth using outside of Nuking. It would be an even more devastating spell when used against players as well.

[Septimus]

White Mage gets tons of toy spells, why not Red Mage? :p

Seriously, White Mage got Holy II on principal, not because White Mage got a real buff to nuking. Red Mage could probably use a few spells to fit this too... some sort of advanced paralyze spell that makes the mob hit itself and is affected by paralyze merits would be a nice start, even if it didn't work on NM.

As someone who is insane enough to be working on the Light Damage Staff, I will say unequivocally that, yes WHM needs a buff to nuking. My kill speed increased exponentially when I started to use Seraph Blade to finish off mobs than to hope and pray that Banish III or Holy decided to not suck this time. >_>

[Neisan_Quetz]

I did them on Rdm >< Blizz 4 > X Nuke to low hp > banish 2/banishga/II to finish it off. Without Blm friend helping I found it easier on Rdm...

[Quetzacoatl]

White Mage gets tons of toy spells, why not Red Mage? :p

Seriously, White Mage got Holy II on principal, not because White Mage got a real buff to nuking. Red Mage could probably use a few spells to fit this too... some sort of advanced paralyze spell that makes the mob hit itself and is affected by paralyze merits would be a nice start, even if it didn't work on NM.

Dude, I totally overlooked this post when I was posting about Seizure lol

[Septimus]

I did them on Rdm >< Blizz 4 > X Nuke to low hp > banish 2/banishga/II to finish it off. Without Blm friend helping I found it easier on Rdm...

I am doing them WAR/DNC to beat the crap out of the mob and finishing with Banish III or Holy from WHM. Still pretty terrible no matter how you slice it.

[Hashmalum]

I certainly wouldn't mind "toy" spells like Confuse or Toad or Float (like Deodorize, but for mobs that track by sight) but with RDM having three areas that need work (enfeebling, healing, and melee) and other jobs with problems too I'm not going to expect or ask for any.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

As someone who is insane enough to be working on the Light Damage Staff, I will say unequivocally that, yes WHM needs a buff to nuking. My kill speed increased exponentially when I started to use Seraph Blade to finish off mobs than to hope and pray that Banish III or Holy decided to not suck this time. >_>

WHM deserved a buff to nuking and RDM needs one to curing... I'm fine with an exchange of sorts.. MAB II for Cure V. :)

[Economizer]

WHM deserved a buff to nuking and RDM needs one to curing... I'm fine with an exchange of sorts.. MAB II for Cure V. :)

This wouldn't be a fair trade for White Mage. If you think it is, you severely overestimate Divine nukes. Plus, you can sub Red Mage, still have a portion of the MP regeneration and speedcast powers that /SCH provides, while getting MABII if you need it. You can't sub White Mage for Cure V.

Of course, this thread isn't supposed to be about trolling for Cure V, it is supposed to be about enfeebles. Like talking about how Red Mage should get toy enfeebles in addition to real adjustments since jobs like White Mage have toy nukes (not real nukes).

In my opinion, something that nerfs TP build and maybe harms TP move accuracy would be a nice one, in addition to a self-hurting paralyze that could be called something like Confuse. This could be implemented in addition to toy enfeebles like Toad.

[Hyrist]

We've had so many ideas for new enfeebles, but not a single lick of feedback from the developers since the manifestio as to what kinds of 'new enfeebles' we would be getting.

If it would be at all possible. I'd like to get some indication as to what direction their thinking already as far as new enfeebles go. They said they wanted to add them, so maybe they have their own ideas. It would nice to get feedback on the current ideas we've had as well.

While SE is making their rounds, I'd like the enfeebling issue to be forefront on their minds when it comes to RDM.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

This wouldn't be a fair trade for White Mage. If you think it is, you severely overestimate Divine nukes. Plus, you can sub Red Mage, still have a portion of the MP regeneration and speedcast powers that /SCH provides, while getting MABII if you need it. You can't sub White Mage for Cure V.

Of course, this thread isn't supposed to be about trolling for Cure V, it is supposed to be about enfeebles. Like talking about how Red Mage should get toy enfeebles in addition to real adjustments since jobs like White Mage have toy nukes (not real nukes).

In my opinion, something that nerfs TP build and maybe harms TP move accuracy would be a nice one, in addition to a self-hurting paralyze that could be called something like Confuse. This could be implemented in addition to toy enfeebles like Toad.

I was messing about. While I do want Cure V, I didn't really think it was a far trade.

[Economizer]

Another thing that would be nice to see more of would be spikes spells that inflict enfeebles, although Ice Spikes are hard to beat. I always felt that enspells and spikes spells were the most representative spells from Red Mage because they combine Enhancing, Enfeebling, and Elemental damage together. If anyone should be mixing spells together in a powerful way, it should be Red Mage.

Perhaps Earth Spikes that inflict slow, Wind Spikes that inflict Silence, and a new form or upgrading Blaze Spikes to inflict Addle?

[Seriha]

Logic that Aquaveil, Blink, Stoneskin, Dread, and Reprisal are their respective elemental "spikes" aside, the problem with those is similar to that we faced with Shield Mastery: Without being the mob's focus, they're pretty much useless. Granted, I like defensive enfeebles if done right, but offensive maneuvers tend to get the most use. This isn't to say the concepts can't be melded in some way, though.

For example, when we had another enfeebling thread in the past, my idea for a Pain enfeeble involved the amount of damage a mob does in a given attack directly subtracts from its ATK for its next attack round. This would basically diminish the amount of damage a hit does every other attack round, and with luck, could factor into the damage of a TP move if used in a low phase. This doesn't quite address how some mobs are simply given stupid high weapon damage ratings, but that's also another type of enfeeble that could be looked into.

Anyway, with Helix spells being improved for SCH, I'd want to so DoT enfeebles are largely out of our domain at this point. This isn't to say Poison III or something better than Bio III could land its way in our arsenal, but subbing SCH aside, we'll probably never personally see anything as good in our arsenal. And given the exploitation of various DoT tactics in the past, I'm not entirely surprised. Otherwise, to generalize, if there's a stat in the game, a buff or debuff can be made to affect it. There are lots of stats, just going beyond what we see on our screens. Much as I dread how I'd arrange my macros with dozens of new spells, they're possibilities.

[Economizer]

Without being the mob's focus, they're pretty much useless.

At this point, most of Red Mage's problems (and more relevant to this thread, defensive enfeebles, and other enhancing based moves) would be solved when they fix the merits.

It would be very easy for them. First remove Phalanx II as a spell. Then replace it with a merit that gives Red Mage a job trait that allows casting most buffs on other party members when under the effects of Composure. This would include Barspells, Aquaviel, Stoneskin, Blink, Phalanx, the Gain-STAT family of spells (but not Temper), and the spikes spells. It could also potentially include Reraise. Additional merits would increase the duration of spells, up to 50% (If I'm doing the math right, its multiplicative with the RDM AF3 gear, which means duration would be increased three fold with the full set, or at least that's the goal).

I know its slightly veering off topic, but that would also help Red Mage when it comes time to give out more defensive enfeebles.

[Seriha]

I can't say I find the prospect of a Haste, Refresh, Phalanx, Regen, Reraise, Spikes, Gain, Barelement, Barstatus, Aquaveil, Blink, and Stoneskin cycle appealing without vastly significant duration boosts. I'm talking like a half hour for everything that isn't consumed in some way like Stoneskin or Blink. And this doesn't even account for new stuff that may come about if pimping the defensive angle of enfeebling. Regardless, you'll get no argument from me about converting merit spells to scroll learned.

Otherwise, while defensive enfeebles can justify some higher potencies since they'd inherently carry the risk of taking damage or some other condition, offensive actions will ultimately see more immediate results that people will hone in on in a game where a strong offense is often the best defense. It's not so much that our enfeebles are useless on fodder, but more that we can't inflict them all in time to be meaningful. To that end, I wouldn't mind more combined spells that don't sacrifice potency for the speed of infliction, perhaps leading to a Bad Breath equivalent for RDMs that doesn't suck. It's just a matter of deciding how to pair/group effects, like how Radiant Breath inflicts Slow and Silence on top of its damage. Actually, it'd be nice if whatever new enfeebles carried a slight damage component, or sin of sins, TP generation for the RDM.

[Economizer]

I can't say I find the prospect of a Haste, Refresh, Phalanx, Regen, Reraise, Spikes, Gain, Barelement, Barstatus, Aquaveil, Blink, and Stoneskin cycle appealing without vastly significant duration boosts. I'm talking like a half hour for everything that isn't consumed in some way like Stoneskin or Blink. And this doesn't even account for new stuff that may come about if pimping the defensive angle of enfeebling.

Assuming 3x duration like Composure gives (which is the target) you'd only be casting Gain spells every 15 minutes, like other five minute buffs. Three minute buffs like Phalanx would last about 9 minutes.

Casting Stoneskin, Blink, and Aquaviel on others is a pretty big waste of time in my opinion.

Since Phalanx is already something you can merit to cast on others, or sub Scholar to AOE, it isn't really a new buff to cycle. You'd only really be gaining Spikes and Gain spells. While Gain spells would be another cycle, you'd only really have to cast the spikes spell on the tank, which wouldn't be too bad at a nine minute duration.

I know I forgot to mention enspells, but I think that along with Temper, they should remain self-cast only regardless.


Regardless, you'll get no argument from me about converting merit spells to scroll learned.

I was actually talking about eliminating Phalanx II, but that too.


Otherwise, while defensive enfeebles can justify some higher potencies since they'd inherently carry the risk of taking damage or some other condition, offensive actions will ultimately see more immediate results that people will hone in on in a game where a strong offense is often the best defense. It's not so much that our enfeebles are useless on fodder, but more that we can't inflict them all in time to be meaningful. To that end, I wouldn't mind more combined spells that don't sacrifice potency for the speed of infliction, perhaps leading to a Bad Breath equivalent for RDMs that doesn't suck. It's just a matter of deciding how to pair/group effects, like how Radiant Breath inflicts Slow and Silence on top of its damage. Actually, it'd be nice if whatever new enfeebles carried a slight damage component, or sin of sins, TP generation for the RDM.

TP generation like Occult Acumen for Red Mage, even if it was only for enfeebles would be an interesting thing to have.

On the defensive enfeebles in general, I don't think they should replace enfeebling magic, but they could be a tool to augment it. Spikes currently excel at combating large groups of weaker foes, which seems to be Red Mage's strongest trait right now between spikes and Phalanx.

[Hashmalum]

Unless they could be cast on others, defensive (spike-type) enfeebles would just be another 'toy' spell that wouldn't really help us. Even then they'd face the problem of not stacking with Reprisal, leading to problems with using them with a PLD tank. I'm not really in favor of the idea, it's not terrible but I think that more straightforward enfeebles are better.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Unless they could be cast on others, defensive (spike-type) enfeebles would just be another 'toy' spell that wouldn't really help us. Even then they'd face the problem of not stacking with Reprisal, leading to problems with using them with a PLD tank. I'm not really in favor of the idea, it's not terrible but I think that more straightforward enfeebles are better.

RDM should get no more party enhancing spells until they either get a 5 minute ability to copy their buffs to the party or AoE buffs.

[Ophannus]

WHM gets AoE Heals, it's a healing specialist. BLM gets AoE nukes, it's an elemental nuke specialist.

RDM is a enhancer and enfeebling specialist so why don't we get the AoE Enhancing/Enfeebling spells ><

[Stylin]

WHM gets AoE Heals, it's a healing specialist. BLM gets AoE nukes, it's an elemental nuke specialist.

RDM is a enhancer and enfeebling specialist so why don't we get the AoE Enhancing/Enfeebling spells ><

Diaga is apparently super broken to have.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Blm got the AoE enfeebles not mob related.

[Hashmalum]

BLM basically got the AoE crowd control enfeebles (Sleepga, Breakga). The lack of the -ga enfeebles for RDM has always annoyed me too, but if I had to choose between -ga enfeebles and higher tier single target enfeebles I'd go for the latter. After all, there's always /SCH.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

WHM gets AoE Heals, it's a healing specialist. BLM gets AoE nukes, it's an elemental nuke specialist.

RDM is a enhancer and enfeebling specialist so why don't we get the AoE Enhancing/Enfeebling spells ><

Not so fussed about AoE enfeebles, outside of Sleep or Break it's mostly pointless to have. Enhancing however I do want.

[Ophannus]

I just can't see why RDM was given so many self-only buffs. How does that help the party? Maybe if RDM was a stronger melee, the self buffs would make more sense. Even if barspells were able to target others but be single target, it'd be useful but they're worthless except for solo situations.

[Stylin]

I just can't see why RDM was given so many self-only buffs. How does that help the party?

RDM was never a party buffer. Saying it is goes beyond the "square peg, round hole" metaphor. This is more like trying to fit the triangle peg into the star shaped hole. Seriously now, how many times was that question answered?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I just can't see why RDM was given so many self-only buffs. How does that help the party? Maybe if RDM was a stronger melee, the self buffs would make more sense. Even if barspells were able to target others but be single target, it'd be useful but they're worthless except for solo situations.

Originally they wanted RDM to be specifically for buffing itself, that way what it lacked physically and magically it could buff itself up.... Then Avesta arrived and the buffing for RDM died straight up so other people found another job for it WHM-1

[Xtrasweettea]

We've had so many ideas for new enfeebles, but not a single lick of feedback from the developers since the manifestio as to what kinds of 'new enfeebles' we would be getting.
I agree, though they may have addressed it and have not made it public. Wishful thinking on my part.


If it would be at all possible. I'd like to get some indication as to what direction their thinking already as far as new enfeebles go. They said they wanted to add them, so maybe they have their own ideas. It would nice to get feedback on the current ideas we've had as well.
Agreed. They did a nice update to what they plan to do for PUP (which there was much rejoicing from me). I am hoping they would address new enfeebles or a view into what they wish to make or plan to make for RDM.

[FrankReynolds]

RDM was never a party buffer. Saying it is goes beyond the "square peg, round hole" metaphor. This is more like trying to fit the triangle peg into the star shaped hole. Seriously now, how many times was that question answered?

the triangle peg actually fits in the star hole. :P

[Hyrist]

Only if it's the Star of David.

I'm pretty sure he was referring to a 5 pointed star.

[FrankReynolds]

Only if it's the Star of David.

I'm pretty sure he was referring to a 5 pointed star.

I was just being silly. I haven't looked at one of those things in (30??) years.

Seriously though, people claiming Red Mages aren't party buffers is silly. The peg is a terrible analogy, in that anything will fit in the star shaped hole if the hole is big enough. In this case, what constitutes buffing a party is a big gray area, and red fits in it pretty damn often regardless of whether red mage is a "star" at it.

[Stylin]

I was just being silly. I haven't looked at one of those things in (30??) years.

Seriously though, people claiming Red Mages aren't party buffers is silly. The peg is a terrible analogy, in that anything will fit in the star shaped hole if the hole is big enough. In this case, what constitutes buffing a party is a big gray area, and red fits in it pretty damn often regardless of whether red mage is a "star" at it.

Ah but if the hole is so big that any peg can go in, is it really fitting?

Regen, Refresh, Haste, Protect and Shell are all we get to enhance others. This is part of the Jack of All Trades title. It can fit in that role if a specialist is not available, the same way it can be a nuker, DD, or main heal.

[Neisan_Quetz]

P2 but yeah.

You can cut 2 of those 4 off your list of 'can fit the role if no specialist available'.

[Stylin]

P2 but yeah.

You can cut 2 of those 4 off your list of 'can fit the role if no specialist available'.

Whoosh. This isn't a debate.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Then you enjoy having a shitty Jack.

[Stylin]

Obviously I'm not talking about filling ALL the roles at one time. Try not to be so anal about everything.

[Neisan_Quetz]

As soon as people stop bringing up that worn out phrase as if it means a crap.

[Stylin]

As soon as people stop bringing up that worn out phrase as if it means a crap.

You're just upset that the "Master of None" finally applies to it's healing aspect.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

You're just upset that the "Master of None" finally applies to it's healing aspect.

Jack of all trades doesn't apply to healing either so....

that said if people want to have digs at other people I hear a School Playground is a much better place to do it.

[FrankReynolds]

Ah but if the hole is so big that any peg can go in, is it really fitting?

Regen, Refresh, Haste, Protect and Shell are all we get to enhance others. This is part of the Jack of All Trades title. It can fit in that role if a specialist is not available, the same way it can be a nuker, DD, or main heal.

Yes, we "fit" in lots of roles. It would be nice if red mage skill set was reshaped to fit better, but for the mean time, haste, shell, refresh, protect and phalanx are all buffs that are expected to be used in a large portion of the game. Saying that the person who casts them isn't buffing the party is ass backwards.

Maybe we should tell people to stop calling 360 and ps3 game consoles. Afterall, my pc has better graphics and a larger available game catalog, so 360 and ps3 are clearly not game consoles.

[Neisan_Quetz]

You're just upset that the "Master of None" finally applies to it's healing aspect.

lolwut, are we playing the same game?

[Stylin]

Yes, we "fit" in lots of roles. It would be nice if red mage skill set was reshaped to fit better, but for the mean time, haste, shell, refresh, protect and phalanx are all buffs that are expected to be used in a large portion of the game. Saying that the person who casts them isn't buffing the party is ass backwards.

Maybe we should tell people to stop calling 360 and ps3 game consoles. Afterall, my pc has better graphics and a larger available game catalog, so 360 and ps3 are clearly not game consoles.

I think you've missed my point. Yes, it can fill in that spot, but it's not what defines the job. RDM has so much more going for it than "party buffer".


lolwut, are we playing the same game?

I don't know, are we? You seem to be implying RDM's curing capacity is fine and is not in need of any proper adjustments.

[Neisan_Quetz]

No, I've always stated the opposite, you can see that pretty clearly on the Cure V thread.

[Stylin]

No, I've always stated the opposite, you can see that pretty clearly on the Cure V thread.

I'm aware of your stance on the matter. I'm just giving you a hard time. Seriously though, what is wrong with my reasoning for RDM's few party-targetable buffs? All I can gather is that you don't like that I mentioned "Jack of All Trades".

[Neisan_Quetz]

I feel more like a 7 of clubs tbh.

[CapriciousOne]

You have these choices,

Dia III
Bio III
Blind II
Paralyze II
Slow II
Phalanx II

Out of those, Blind II is useless. Bio III is only good at 5/5 for really long solos. The leaves Paralyze II / Slow II / Dia III for enfeebles and Phalanx II for buffs. Out of all those Dia III is the most potent and useful. Phalanx is only good at 5/5, so using it requires you to dispose of Slow II / Paralyze II.

This very reason that I honestly dont see why se dont just increase the max total merits for each group to 20 or even 30 and quit bs. Personally for rdm I would just rather have all those given as spells directly and just have group2 affect elemental potency myself but whatever.

[CapriciousOne]

Hinder: Increases the amount of TP required to use a special move.

When used on a mob, the amount of TP required for them to use a special move is increased by 30-75% which means less frequent special moves. Below 25% HP this means the mob will need a minimum of up to 175% TP to execute a TP attack instead of the usual 100%.


Dispel should get a bonus with Enfeebling Skill so that every 100ish Enfeebling Skill, Dispel will remove another debuff (RDM main only). We don't need to waste another spell slot on a tier 2, just make it scale like how Bio and Elemental Debuffs and Enhancing spells do with skill.

Poison III would be welcomed because 10-11/tick isn't much now that most NMs have 150k+HP now, besides BLU's Disseverment poison is already 16/tick.

IF this scaling was implemented across the board for our enfeeble as well as enhancing magic spells, could this possible alleviate the need for Cure V. For the enfeebling spells that are already being scaled, maybe an increase in scaling to make it proc more thus reducing the need to cure. I feel this would be especially be useful for NM and regular mob beyond 85.

[FrankReynolds]

I think you've missed my point. Yes, it can fill in that spot, but it's not what defines the job. RDM has so much more going for it than "party buffer".

Yeah, actually it is just one of the things that define the job. Red Mage doesn't have one defining role. it has several. Party buffer is one of them.

[CapriciousOne]

At this point, most of Red Mage's problems (and more relevant to this thread, defensive enfeebles, and other enhancing based moves) would be solved when they fix the merits.

It would be very easy for them. First remove Phalanx II as a spell. Then replace it with a merit that gives Red Mage a job trait that allows casting most buffs on other party members when under the effects of Composure. This would include Barspells, Aquaviel, Stoneskin, Blink, Phalanx, the Gain-STAT family of spells (but not Temper), and the spikes spells. It could also potentially include Reraise. Additional merits would increase the duration of spells, up to 50% (If I'm doing the math right, its multiplicative with the RDM AF3 gear, which means duration would be increased three fold with the full set, or at least that's the goal).

I know its slightly veering off topic, but that would also help Red Mage when it comes time to give out more defensive enfeebles.

Seriously why you messing with my spell. I agree it shouldn't be a merit but removing this spell completely is bs. Well that is how it sounds per your wording. Hopefully you meant converting Phalanx II to an actual spell not completely removing it. If you want to do all that other stuff most of it is just taken care of by say...um... playing WHM?! OR /SCH and accession or whatever. On the other hand I guess it wouldn't make a difference to me if those spells were allowed because I dont main heal like ever but why add more crap to a rdm spell cycle for which you know everybody will be begging?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Seriously why you messing with my spell. I agree it shouldn't be a merit but removing this spell completely is bs. Well that is how it sounds per your wording. Hopefully you meant converting Phalanx II to an actual spell not completely removing it. If you want to do all that other stuff most of it is just taken care of by say...um... playing WHM?! OR /SCH and accession or whatever. On the other hand I guess it wouldn't make a difference to me if those spells were allowed because I dont main heal like ever but why add more crap to a rdm spell cycle for which you know everybody will be begging?

I don't like cycles, but I would so merit it if they did a merit to increase duration of enhancing spells by 10% per level, so 50% at 5.

[saevel]

This very reason that I honestly dont see why se dont just increase the max total merits for each group to 20 or even 30 and quit bs. Personally for rdm I would just rather have all those given as spells directly and just have group2 affect elemental potency myself but whatever.

It's what I've been saying for ages. Make all the "merit" spells available via NPC vender and change the merits into "potency / accuracy" merits. Slow II becomes "Slow Potency", Dia III becoms "Dia Potency" and so forth. This way you still get all your spells but also maintain the ability to pimp them out. Currently SE can't create "Tier III" enfeebles or a Dia IV due to the merit spells existing the way they are. It's become such a hindrance that they making lol spells like Break / Addle that mostly do nothing.

[Economizer]

Seriously why you messing with my spell. I agree it shouldn't be a merit but removing this spell completely is bs. Well that is how it sounds per your wording.

I don't see how it is BS in any logical way.

Phalanx 2, even with full merits, has less potency then Phalanx. So the solution is very simple - remove Phalanx 2, and make a way to cast it, and other spells, on others with increased duration.

Now, I don't actually think Enspells and Temper should be castable on others in any circumstances. Also, spells like Aquaveil, Stoneskin, Blink wouldn't be worth cycling on a whole party, and hardly worth casting on the tank. Phalanx already has a cyclable version with Phalanx 2, so the change would only be increasing the potency and duration (based on the change I suggested).

That would just give Barspells and the Gain Spells as the new things to cycle. As pointed out, if casting the near instant cast Barspells on everyone is too hard a hassle, you could just sub White Mage, or get a White Mage.

Since any good White Mage would just sub Scholar and get the same boosts to Gain/Boost spells as a Red Mage, you could just rely on a White Mage for this if you really don't want to cycle, but it makes it so you don't have to. Additionally, your duration would be greatly increased (Gain spells last 5 minutes currently, with the maximum between gear and full merits, you'd get 15 minutes), and unlike a White Mage, you'd have a much easier time of customizing which Gain spell each party member gets.

Or if you want to mix and match, the Red Mage version doesn't get overwritten, so if for example, one person needs Gain-DEX, and the rest need Boost-STR, you just made the party work that much better. This also applies to barspells, like if a mob has a single target air based move, and an AOE water based move, you could have the tank get Baraero, and the rest get Barwatera.

So basically, you'd just have a merit that increases duration on all your spells, makes Phalanx better, increases the ability of Red Mage's, at the cost of only really adding one more spell line you will possibly be asked to cycle. There is no BS here.


It's what I've been saying for ages. Make all the "merit" spells available via NPC vender and change the merits into "potency / accuracy" merits. Slow II becomes "Slow Potency", Dia III becoms "Dia Potency" and so forth. This way you still get all your spells but also maintain the ability to pimp them out. Currently SE can't create "Tier III" enfeebles or a Dia IV due to the merit spells existing the way they are. It's become such a hindrance that they making lol spells like Break / Addle that mostly do nothing.

It is what everyone has been saying more or less. It would greatly improve the merit categories too, since you wouldn't have to merit one point in things just to get a spell. I hope that when SE changes this, they make all the spells appear at a vendor, but give all Red Mages with merits the spells automatically.

[saevel]

Since any good White Mage would just sub Scholar and get the same boosts to Gain/Boost spells as a Red Mage

Not even remotely close.

My enhancing macro has me at 463 total enhancing magic. That's +21 to my stat of choice.

WHM can't get.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Phalanx 2 at full potency isn't weaker than Phalanx. If you're going by otherwiki it hasn't been updated since 75.

SE announced at least for the test server they're upping total merit point categories so it may be a moot point in the future if it's a decent increase. Heck, 5 more merits and I'd be fine with that.

If you're going to get rid of spells get rid of Bio III first...

[saevel]

Phalanx II and Phalanx I scale differently, so the question of which is stronger depends on your enhancing magic.

Phalanx 1 @300 skill is 28 reduction. After this it takes 29 enhancing magic to raise it one. @463 Enhancing Magic I only get 33 reduction.

Phalanx II doesn't have a shifting scale. Instead its 25 enhancing magic per base resistance then add bonus from merit level.

So 1 + (Enhancing/25) + (3 * merit),

At 1 merit and 463 skill I would get 22
At 5 merits and 463 skill I would get 34, so at this high enhancing magic Phalanx II at 5/5 ends up being stronger then Phalanx 1 by 5 points.

Assuming skill ratings scale the same till 99, then you get 28 more skill for 491 per cast.

Phalanx 1 @491 becomes 34, Phalanx II 5/5 @ 491 becomes 35, so no real difference.

My issue with Phalanx II is that it requires five merits to be useful. Which means I need to take away merits from something else, either Slow II / Para II or like many stupid RDM's do, Dia III. This makes Phalanx II actually worth less then Blind II, since that actually scales pretty well with INT. You end up with Dia III > Slow II = Paralyze II > Blind II > Phalanx II > Bio III in generic usability. If SE were to adjust scaling of Phalanx 1 / 2 then this argument would shift accordingly.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Nothing I typically fight while on Rdm is going to sway the outcome whether or not I use Blind 2 over 1, so meriting it was pointless for me.

I could care less about VW's proc system atm since I don't go Rdm there except for badget PUGs.

Slow and Para merits scale much worse than any of the others.

[saevel]

Slow and Para directly scale with dMND so their similar to Blind II. Additional merits just add static percentages onto them, its the equivalent of tossing on more MND and allows for a slightly higher cap. Para II also seems to act differently the Para 1, notably on NQ monsters or regular NM's (the non super resistant kind). When I'm doing campaign or just solo work I can easily tell the difference between Para 1 and Para 2 (2/5 currently), it's not a placebo its a real noticeable difference. Of course on anything that actually matters Para II is complete sh!t, but that's SE for you.

In all honestly all of them except Dia III are crap, SE deliberately made them weak to prevent any more "Avesta" situations.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Yeah I do mean the additional merits into them, 1% increase per merit is pretty terrible for both imo.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Not even remotely close.

My enhancing macro has me at 463 total enhancing magic. That's +21 to my stat of choice.

WHM can't get.

I've checked WHM/SCH with gear recieves more Enhancing than RDM.

WHM can get +99
RDM can get +80

[saevel]

I've checked WHM/SCH with gear recieves more Enhancing than RDM.

WHM can get +99
RDM can get +80

Which gear and what's the difficulty of obtaining. Sh!t like Hyksos robe and it's HQ+2 R/EX version are exceeding rare to the point of non-existence. I've gone over this with many many WHMs, very few have enhancing sets.

[Neisan_Quetz]

We've also gone over this, difficulty of obtainment/bad players =! impossible.

EDIT: Didn't include the HQ robe lol, that makes +90. +75 otherwise for Whm.

Beneficus + Enhancing(Colossal)/Augmenting/Augur's/Merciful/Olympus (Cascade for 2 less skill)/Portent/Orison+2 Duckbills is what I got so far from quick search. None of them are out of reach for anyone competent either bar the Olympus since no one had found it at the time.

[saevel]

We've also gone over this, difficulty of obtainment/bad players =! impossible.

EDIT: Didn't include the HQ robe lol, that makes +90. +75 otherwise for Whm.

Beneficus BS drop, haven't seen a single WHM who will use one for the same reason I won't.
Enhancing Torque +7
Augmenting +3 Earring
Augur's/ Wow .. T4 VWNM R/EX body drop ... less then 1% drop rate...., I tried for so long that I just spent a few million and a few weeks of AH camping to make the Hyksos Robe. As some douch has raised the price to 2mil for Flame Gems don't expect to see any of these floating around. The Shell is a ultra rare drop off the Windy T3 Turtle VWNM.

Merciful Cape +5
/Olympus (Cascade for 2 less skill) FCKING SERIOUSLY! You know these don't exist in any quantity yet right, I've been after one for over a month. They'd be using a Cascade for +3

/Portent +15
/Orison+2 Duckbills +20

is what I got so far from quick search. None of them are out of reach for anyone competent either bar the Olympus since no one had found it at the time.

Neisan I know I view your intelligence rather lowly but this is an entirely new level. You attributed gear to a WHM that a dedicated RDM can't even acquire. We do know where the O.sash drops from, its a HKCNM that's bugged and usually doesn't drop a chest upon win. The recommendation of an Aughur robe is just wow ... do you even fcking play? That item basically doesn't exist, it would take months of spamming the Bastok t4 over and over again to get one, or your mule or the WAR could magically get it. K.Clubs are easier to come by the VWNM T4 bodies.

Anyhow as I've shown they have mostly the same stuff we do except +20 on one item instead of +15.

+20 Feet
+15 Legs
+7 Neck
+5 Back
+3 Earring
+3 Waist
+53 Total

Beneficus is possible, but I've never seen a WHM use one, ever. +15 would give them 68 skill tops.

I'm at +71 so far, could grab a +3 waist but it wouldn't do anything for me so I chose to use the -12% belt instead.

And before you make some lame a$$ comment, I actually did a poll of our LS WHMs about Boost-STR and the answer was basically they didn't have space to carry around a specific +enhancing macro set. They use what can easily be fit into other sets. Ontop of that, me acquiring my Hysos Robe turned into an LS event due to it's rarity and how annoying difficult it was to synth (took our head synergist five tries to get it right).

Now instead of using wiki to form an enhancing set why don't you actually go out and try it, you'll find it MUCH harder then you think. Especially those ultra rare pieces that you somehow thought would magically appear.

[saevel]

I've checked WHM/SCH with gear recieves more Enhancing than RDM.

WHM can get +99
RDM can get +80

People need to stop looking at wiki's enhancing magic list and going "hey they can get X / Y / Z", its not that simple. Actually acquiring that gear is much harder / annoying and of questionable worth. List actual obtainable gear, SE likes to troll people.

[Neisan_Quetz]

No it isn't? I'm only missing beneficus because I lost lot on last one and haven't fought it since, been working on emp weapons instead. Merc Cape isn't hard to get (mostly slightly tedius at best) nor is Portent. I have no clue what the hell your Whms are using that is taking up so much space, I could easily fill out an enhancing set on Whm and still have room left over for regular gear. Considering their boosts are AoE, they should be carrying an enhancing set, or do they run around in melee gear cause that's the only set I can't carry with Idle/PDT/MDT/Curing/Enhancing/Divine/FC/Stoneskin sets, plus usual staves/swap out obis as needed

[saevel]

No it isn't? I'm only missing beneficus because I lost lot on last one and haven't fought it since, been working on emp weapons instead. Merc Cape isn't hard to get (mostly slightly tedius at best) nor is Portent. I have no clue wth you're Whms are using that is taking up so much space, I could easily fill out an enhancing set on Whm and still have room left over for regular gear.

And as predicted fall back to the "your WHM's must suck" argument. It's a fallacious argument, it doesn't follow causality.

Portant is a semi-rare drop of Rani, not hard if you have a shell.

Merciful Cape was BS at 75, now not so much. I spent over a year trying to get one and only stopped when the Abyssea RDM cape was made.

But neither of those is impossible, no what you listed was the impossible. Talking about a fcking Augur Robe in the same sentence as Portent Pants / Merciful Cape is plain stupid. Then talking about an item you don't even know how to obtain, something I've been AH camping for over a month now and has proven to be nearly impossible to get (for now). I bet you calculate RDM's cure potency using the HQ+2 Cure +15% body don't you.

Beneficus is one of those things that WHM's like to keep in their storage bin. In theory it should be a highly sought after due to its effects on barspells, yet somehow I haven't met any WHM's who actually use it.

And before you make another lame comment about "WHM suck less", this shells WHM are insanely good. You just maybe might want to know who your insulting before you go around insulting them. WHM's just don't build enhancing magic sets, they build barspell sets which are similar but with a few item differences. Until Gain-STR there never was a reason for a WHM to even bother with a specialized set for maximizing their enhancing magic skill. Not to mention it requires them to run into AoE range to cast, something that's usually fatal on VWNM's.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I was asking how did Whm get +90 enhancing since I only counted +75, then realized they counted the body and I hadn't.

I'm going to keep saying they suck until I see evidence otherwise, and so far I'm not seeing any. I included the cascade belt which is piss easy to obtain even if you can't get Olympus, and Enhancing for people who didn't bother with Alexander.

/Facepalm at calling them "insanely good" Whms but they don't use enhancing gear/Beneficus? I wasn't aware intentionally gimping yourself made you insanely good at your job, brb been doinitwrong.


EDIT: Enhances elemental resistance spell gear comes out to all of 2 pieces not in the enhancing set/regular gear...

[saevel]

/Facepalm at calling them "insanely good" Whms but they don't use enhancing gear/Beneficus? I wasn't aware intentionally gimping yourself made you insanely good at your job, brb been doinitwrong.


Like I said, your resorting to the age old "you suck" argument. Your assuming the precedent of your argument is correct without proving it, that precedent being "good WHMs have enhancing set". You need to prove the validity of that prior to making assumptions on it being true.

Out of the 8+ years I've been in this game, I've known exactly zero WHMs with a full blown enhancing set. I've known two that came close, they were pretty hard core WHM's, one even went on to get a Mollijner. Now I have a random poster coming on a forum telling me that they all suck because they don't have a set that he does? I'm sorry but you need to quantify your arguments otherwise your just noise in the wind as far as I'm concerned.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Which gear and what's the difficulty of obtaining. Sh!t like Hyksos robe and it's HQ+2 R/EX version are exceeding rare to the point of non-existence. I've gone over this with many many WHMs, very few have enhancing sets.

Olymbus Sash = +5
Hyksos Robe = +10~11 - Can be bought so should not be removed. 4 million gil isn't hard to get anymore
Beneficus = +15
Portent Pants = +15
Orison Boots +2 = +20
Augur's Gloves = +5
Enhancing/Colossus's Torque = +7~10
Merciful Cape = +5

I calculated wrong it's only +82 but the point being WHM is NOT behind RDM in any case when it comes to enhancing. Boost and Gain with the correct gear is even, and barspells one of the only other spells effected by Enhancing Skill WHM already trumps RDM on.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Intentionally gimp is gimp, period. If they have the gear for it and aren't using it, they are intentionally gimping themselves unless they have a good reason to somehow be full on inventory (already figured out a setup that's 78/80 with everything relevant I could think of, being idle/PDT/MDT/enhancing/bars/nuking/-enmity/fast cast/stoneskin/empyrean/useful relic and AF/macc/decent Mnd set/cure potency/relevant staves). Really want to hear their excuse for not having space for beneficus.

[saevel]

Olymbus Sash = +5

Hyksos Robe = +10~11 - Can be bought so should not be removed. 4 million gil isn't hard to get anymore
Read what I wrote, I only just now got this item and I had to acquire the parts individually and have a LS member synergy it. These are incredibly rare, they require a rare drop off the Windy T3 VWNM turtle and a flame gem. It's NOT a matter of "get gil, goto AH, get item". I tried for months to no avail.

Beneficus = +15, While it exists I've never EVER seen a WHM use it.

Portent Pants = +15
Orison Boots +2 = +20
Augur's Gloves = +5
Enhancing/Colossus's Torque = +7 (do not count special day effects, that is 1/8 of the time tops).
Merciful Cape = +5

I calculated wrong it's only +82 but the point being WHM is NOT behind RDM in any case when it comes to enhancing. Boost and Gain with the correct gear is even, and barspells one of the only other spells effected by Enhancing Skill WHM already trumps RDM on.

And this assumes the WHM is /SCH anyway, most seem to be permanently attached to /BLM for Warp II or /RDM for Vert / Refresh these days.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

And this assumes the WHM is /SCH anyway, most seem to be permanently attached to /BLM for Warp II or /RDM for Vert / Refresh these days.

I don't know, I only ever see WHM/SCH on my server.

[saevel]

I don't know, I only ever see WHM/SCH on my server.

Then your practicing cognitive dissonance.

Which actually explains a lot.

-=Edit=-

I'm not arguing whats best, it's obvious that a WHM with an enhancing set is better then a WHM without one. Just like a WHM going /SCH is better then a WHM going /BLM (/RDM is up in the air).

I'm arguing what's actually being used. Theory is nice on paper, but it's what happens in reality that gets things done. And from every observation /BLM is the predominate sub because of the quantity of D2's that need to be passed around after each fight. Their doing it to speed up travel between fights.

Just like the enhancing set above, I do agree that a dedicated hard core WHM can go out and with lots of work get this insanely awesome enhancing magic set. But what on earth would they use it on? Closest thing is barspells, but we already know the resistance is crap, your really using them for the MDB / MDC effects. And even then, these days having a WHM run into range of the tank during a NM fight usually means BBQ'd WHM.

Now if WHM could target those spells onto someone else, then we'd be talking differently.

[cidbahamut]

So what you're saying saevel, is that most of the White Mages you encounter are in actuality quite terrible. What a shocking revelation! Most of the players on any given server are quite terrible as well, but I guess that didn't really occur to you. The only thing a White Mage should ever be subbing BLM for is Stun. Warp II is an awful reason to /BLM when everyone has access to a mog sack and warp items are dirt cheap.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

And even then, these days having a WHM run into range of the tank during a NM fight usually means BBQ'd WHM.

It's simple to counteract this, run in after it TP's unless you're feeding it crazy amounts of TP it rarely casts straight after it TP's so it's the perfect time.

[saevel]

It's simple to counteract this, run in after it TP's unless you're feeding it crazy amounts of TP it rarely casts straight after it TP's so it's the perfect time.

Doesn't work at all and shows that you haven't been keeping up with current content.
VWNM's spam TP moves. We've kited Kagan around in circles and he just spasm them, he doesn't need TP. I've done the same to the Vampire and other NM's. SE programmed them to use special moved without needing TP.

Even if you wait till right after Kagan does something, a WHM running in for Baraero would be squashed in the couple of seconds it takes to move in, cast the spell and move out. DD's get their a$$'s handed to them and you expect a WHM to survive? I've lost count on the numbers of dead healers and BRD's I've seen trying to run in and out of range. Even with SS up he'll do 1~2K damage aoe, and then his status effect aoe's like stat drain / gravity / silence work to make it more unbearable.

Same with the big iron giant for windy T4, he spams Arm Cannon, which will one shot and mages near it, erradicator, scapula beam and the sorts.

Blame it on SE, they made monsters cheat. Every last one of them either ignore TP requirements or have a 100tp/tick regain effect.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Doesn't work at all and shows that you haven't been keeping up with current content.
VWNM's spam TP moves. We've kited Kagan around in circles and he just spasm them, he doesn't need TP. I've done the same to the Vampire and other NM's. SE programmed them to use special moved without needing TP.

Even if you wait till right after Kagan does something, a WHM running in for Baraero would be squashed in the couple of seconds it takes to move in, cast the spell and move out. DD's get their a$$'s handed to them and you expect a WHM to survive? I've lost count on the numbers of dead healers and BRD's I've seen trying to run in and out of range. Even with SS up he'll do 1~2K damage aoe, and then his status effect aoe's like stat drain / gravity / silence work to make it more unbearable.

Same with the big iron giant for windy T4, he spams Arm Cannon, which will one shot and mages near it, erradicator, scapula beam and the sorts.

Blame it on SE, they made monsters cheat. Every last one of them either ignore TP requirements or have a 100tp/tick regain effect.

I never said it was foolproof, but for the vast majority of NM's it works perfectly fine. Not all VWNM's spam TP's.. Some do, there is a different.

That said, I'm not against making bar spells -ra cast-able on someone else to counteract this.

[saevel]

I never said it was foolproof, but for the vast majority of NM's it works perfectly fine. Not all VWNM's spam TP's.. Some do, there is a different.

That said, I'm not against making bar spells -ra cast-able on someone else to counteract this.

You did say it was "foolproof"


It's simple to counteract this

Any and all VWNM's act this way, some are just easier to deal with then others. Every last one of them has evil aoe moves, take the Outlands Scorp for example. When he TP moves both of his pets do too, regardless of how much TP any of them has nor their location. When he gets under 50% he will TP move back to back within seconds, the first one will pop both babies (if you've killed them) the second will have all three of them do a move. If it's earth pounder or wild rage then you can kill any mage good bye who's within range, half your DD's with them. Each and every VWNM spams evil aoe's. In the past many / most Abyssea NM's had the same ability, to spam TP moves without needing TP. We had crour buffs so we could often withstand a few of them and not die.

So ... if your not talking the current batch of NMs, VWNM and Abyssea, then which NM's are we discussing? Fafnir, Kirin, KB?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

You did say it was "foolproof"



Any and all VWNM's act this way, some are just easier to deal with then others. Every last one of them has evil aoe moves, take the Outlands Scorp for example. When he TP moves both of his pets do too, regardless of how much TP any of them has nor their location. When he gets under 50% he will TP move back to back within seconds, the first one will pop both babies (if you've killed them) the second will have all three of them do a move. If it's earth pounder or wild rage then you can kill any mage good bye who's within range, half your DD's with them. Each and every VWNM spams evil aoe's. In the past many / most Abyssea NM's had the same ability, to spam TP moves without needing TP. We had crour buffs so we could often withstand a few of them and not die.

So ... if your not talking the current batch of NMs, VWNM and Abyssea, then which NM's are we discussing? Fafnir, Kirin, KB?

No, I did not.

I'd love to see all the apparantly NM's that spam moves, really!

I know a lot of the VWNM's do, most Abyssea NM's DO NOT unless you have a large amount of people beating it down feeding it TP, even the ones that have Regain do not spam TP's if it's one or two people attacking at most. The main ones that do are the BIG ones, or they act like the scorpion in Attohwa, or Tiger in Uleguerand which you just turn from when they TP... easy!

Eitherway, VWNM's are the only challenge in this game as it stands. There is one, or maybe too troublesome ones in Abyssea but otherwise it's fine. You're giving the NM's too much credit based on TP feeding situations.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Wait what, you're complaining about TP feed when your group only puts the Pld and Thieves for TH upgrading at best on the mob until stagger (your own words) ...?

[Rayik]

Rant retracted. This isn't the place for it. When enfeebling magic actually works as intended, I might pick RDM back up again.

[cidbahamut]

Rant retracted. This isn't the place for it. When enfeebling magic actually works as intended, I might pick RDM back up again.

I think the crux of the problem is that it might actually be working as intended. Enfeebling magic needs some love.

[FrankReynolds]

I think he meant "works as intended by the person casting the spell", not what the devs intended.

[Rayik]

I think he meant "works as intended by the person casting the spell", not what the devs intended.

Nope, not what I meant at all. But thanks for trying to put words in my mouth.

[Motenten]

Another idea to toss in the thread.

Invert the single-target bar spells. Instead of Barfire the defensive magic, make a Suppress Fire enfeeble. Sort of a super-Addle that only affects one element... and drops M.acc and MAB, but not cast time/recast time.. ok, only vaguely like Addle. Anyway, it would also affect any TP moves associated with that element (eg: Firespit, Groundburst, Gates of Hades, etc). Can only have one version in place at a time, just like you can only have one barspell element at a time.

[TRiPP]

The hell is saboteur? You mean it works? I've yet to see it work.
It's quite simple really, if you think about it. However at this point if we're given anything, other jobs will complain about it. So really what's left to give Red Mage? Nothin'. 'sides... We're given a spell, it's given to someone else.
We're broken either way you flip the coin. Our enfeebles are useless, our melee is lol. (Unless you have a decent amount of inventory.) In b4 lolalmace, do me a favor? Solo Almace and post clips of it, thanks.
To top that off, show us your ACTUAL Red Mage luck. You know the one I'm talking about. Full heal an alliance with Cure IV because the White Mage thinks that Holy is much more effective at keeping the party alive. Then having said White Mage out lot you on what you needed to beef up your Red Mage. Until you have that sort of luck. You're only going to be that very same White Mage who takes Solace for granted and assumes that something like someone else getting Cure V would consider them an obsolete job.
Movin' along this isn't about Cure V nor Almace. It's about Enfeebles. Unfortunately... Enfeebles would be completely useless against NMs (aside from Addle.) As for Gravity II... I've heard rumors about getting this spell... However if the NM is immune to the first tier, why wouldn't it be immune to Tier II?
However, while the OP DOES have great ideas and suggestions... I just don't see us being great at enfeebling anymore. I don't see us being great at anything anymore to be honest.

The only way I see Red Mage being able to get out of it's grave would be to remove resists and just give the NMs resists as oppose to complete immunity. Way to remedy this? Have a limited enfeebling skill needed to land it on the NM. To top that off give RDM Enfeebling Mastery. (Yes, someone stated it.) Making the landing and potency be based off Enfeebling skill, as opposed to stats.

As it stands we don't know exactly what SE plans on doing with Red Mage since their manifesto was/is basically a lie. It's coo' though.

[SpankWustler]

Invert the single-target bar spells. Instead of Barfire the defensive magic, make a Suppress Fire enfeeble. Sort of a super-Addle that only affects one element... and drops M.acc and MAB, but not cast time/recast time.. ok, only vaguely like Addle. Anyway, it would also affect any TP moves associated with that element (eg: Firespit, Groundburst, Gates of Hades, etc). Can only have one version in place at a time, just like you can only have one barspell element at a time.

This sounds amazing. Such a line of spells would be both extremely useful and require some degree of thought in their use. As of such, I fully expect Blind III or Bio IV to be implemented instead.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Addle should have affected Monster MAB in the first place imo, but that still wouldn't have helped if they're just going to hand it out at same potency to other jobs. The effect on casting time needs to be increased as well... I can get they don't want mobs silenced, but Addle is still abit of a joke in its current state.

[Crimson_Slasher]

Not technically enfeebling magic, but id rather not take up another thread at this point what with rampant derails abound. Hows about a self or aoe or single target buff similar to gear buff again. Perhaps its time for a "converts damage taken to MP" buff effect, can be a small percentage, or like temper, can scale with gear/skill. I can see it potentially useful, though only some jobs would make use of it meaning no large 6 party member cycles, just whm/blm/pld/drk/rdm/blu/smn/sch, and most of those arent likely to get hit often. Just a thought.

[TRiPP]

Addle should have affected Monster MAB in the first place imo, but that still wouldn't have helped if they're just going to hand it out at same potency to other jobs. The effect on casting time needs to be increased as well... I can get they don't want mobs silenced, but Addle is still abit of a joke in its current state.

No, that would overpower Red Mage. (How you ask? Don't know but I'm sure somebody out there will complain about how overpowered RDM is.) You know what they say, for every one person that complains, there's about 6 billion other people who feel the same way about it but 'can't' raise their voice.


Not technically enfeebling magic, but id rather not take up another thread at this point what with rampant derails abound. Hows about a self or aoe or single target buff similar to gear buff again. Perhaps its time for a "converts damage taken to MP" buff effect, can be a small percentage, or like temper, can scale with gear/skill. I can see it potentially useful, though only some jobs would make use of it meaning no large 6 party member cycles, just whm/blm/pld/drk/rdm/blu/smn/sch, and most of those arent likely to get hit often. Just a thought.

Can't do that either because it would require a complete overhaul on PS2, and on top of the system limitations. (Wait... I think I did that backwards.) Eh, well you'll piece it together. It's the same excuse we've been given from the start on how we'll be overpowered by one way or another.
It will always be an excuse after excuse to get anywhere with anything Rage Mage related.
Rage Mage will always be overpowered even if SE decided to give us something as lulzy as 'Flash'.

While some of these ideas are great and albeit some are terrible.
I just don't see it happening because of one of these three excuses (yes, excuses not counter-arguments)
will come to mind.
"PS2 Limitations." - "System overhaul" - "RDM IS OVERPOWERED QQ. We can't give it a powerful spell like x! Because it'll make x job useless!"
Just depends on who exactly you're talking to or arguing with at the moment. You will always get one of those excuses as a rebuttal.

[Lilia]

Death for smn,
plague, terror, doom, poison III, tpdown, acc down, att down, def down,...., for blu
and RDM become lol garvity2

is that the new job balance?
can have rdm a high enfeebling or only other jobs?.....

[Economizer]

Glorious necrobump since not many RDM threads seem to focus on Enfeebling.

I know Saboteur boosts potency of enfeebles, but perhaps with Addle it could also increase the spell interrupt rate on mobs, such as a 5% chance spells the mob is casting will be interrupted for no reason, or just an increase in the spell interrupt rate from taking damage.

[SpankWustler]

Glorious necrobump since not many RDM threads seem to focus on Enfeebling.

I know Saboteur boosts potency of enfeebles, but perhaps with Addle it could also increase the spell interrupt rate on mobs, such as a 5% chance spells the mob is casting will be interrupted for no reason, or just an increase in the spell interrupt rate from taking damage.

Compared to what Addle does now, this addition would be a big help to it.

It would pretty awesome if this were a native effect of Addle, actually.

[Economizer]

It would pretty awesome if this were a native effect of Addle, actually.

Honestly I was thinking that Red Mages wanted this spell to somehow be special for them and this is how they could have that, and that mobs casting the spell will be a pain in the butt if Addle had this natively. Still, I can see where a five minute ability would make this a pain to the point of wanting it natively.

[saevel]

Good idea, but needs to be native anyway, but then WHM's get it.

SE also needs to create a new line of enfeebles that are RDM only and that NM's are not resistant to. I want to apply all those effects they be giving BLU.

[SpankWustler]

Honestly I was thinking that Red Mages wanted this spell to somehow be special for them and this is how they could have that, and that mobs casting the spell will be a pain in the butt if Addle had this natively. Still, I can see where a five minute ability would make this a pain to the point of wanting it natively.

Oh, right! I kind of forgot the spell that I keep buried on line four of my WHM macro palette and use only as a Voidwatch proc actually enfeebles monsters. I think the monsters forget, too...

They really should have made Addle suck far less, and if White Mage getting something that sucked less worried them, made it Red Mage-only.

[Duelle]

SE also needs to create a new line of enfeebles that are RDM only and that NM's are not resistant to. I want to apply all those effects they be giving BLU.I'd rather enfeebles be redesigned with some of the effects changed so that we can have some actual enfeebling instead of using spells to outright avoid stuff. I doubt mobs would be immune to paralyze if its effect was "Attack Down & Accuracy Down" instead of "randomly prevents an action". Break could be treated as a stun with a root attached, and so on. Sure, it doesn't work like it did in Final Fantasy VI or VII or X, but they'd fit in the context of an MMORPG.

Another thing to consider would be spells building off each other. Say, Bio's Attack down acting as a booster for Paralyze's effects, or perhaps Slow acting as a booster to Addle. That at least creates a pseudo chain of spells that need to be casted.

Oh, and Dia/Bio being exclusive of each other needs to go away. Giving Attack Down and Defense Down to a mob is not exactly OP, game-breaking or anything.

[Aleste]

Personally, considering that addle is mostly used (as a voidwatch proc~) whenever the mob is unable to be silenced, I'm surprised they didn't consider buffing it to actively penalize the target if it does cast spells. Something like:

Addle: Decreases enemies magical accuracy and increases spellcasting time. Saboteur: Target takes damage whenever a successful spell is cast.

Or make it so that spells cast whilst under the effect of Saboteur'd Addle take twice as long to recharge.

Why even stop there, change the all the current debuffs to have an extra more potent effect whilst under Saboteur? (and then half the recast timer on Saboteur)

Slow : Targets job abilities and weapon skills take twice as long to ready. RDM gains a fast cast bonus depending on strength of targets slow.

Paralyze : The next weapon-skill used is automatically paralyzed (although, I'd imagine just interrupted would suffice) and is disabled for the next X+ weaponskills. (Only 1 weaponskill maximum can be disabled at a time)

Blind : Enemies nearby take +X damage whenever target afflicted misses.

Dispel : Removes an additional buff. Buffs cast upon target wear off 250-500% faster.

[saevel]

I'd rather enfeebles be redesigned with some of the effects changed so that we can have some actual enfeebling instead of using spells to outright avoid stuff. I doubt mobs would be immune to paralyze if its effect was "Attack Down & Accuracy Down" instead of "randomly prevents an action". Break could be treated as a stun with a root attached, and so on. Sure, it doesn't work like it did in Final Fantasy VI or VII or X, but they'd fit in the context of an MMORPG.

Another thing to consider would be spells building off each other. Say, Bio's Attack down acting as a booster for Paralyze's effects, or perhaps Slow acting as a booster to Addle. That at least creates a pseudo chain of spells that need to be casted.

Oh, and Dia/Bio being exclusive of each other needs to go away. Giving Attack Down and Defense Down to a mob is not exactly OP, game-breaking or anything.

All our enfeebles are pre-49, any changes to them will also effect WHM, BLM and SCH.

We like to enjoy Dia III at 15%, but BLU/RDM can do Dia II (10%) + Frightful Roar (10%) for a combined defense reduction of 20%. They every debuff under the sun available to them, granted most have "gotchas" attached to them. The idea was for SE to create similar spells for RDM, not available to WHM / BLM / SCH, that allow a RDM to reduce the targets status and reduce it's capability's. Reducing the target's defense is mathematically the same as enhancing everyone's attack, thus you can indirectly buff your alliance. This would be inline with what the dev's vision of RDM is.

[Duelle]

All our enfeebles are pre-49, any changes to them will also effect WHM, BLM and SCH.I don't believe in spell exclusivity on RDM because the class by concept borrows from other classes. The application and use of the stuff they borrow is what should make the job unique, not whether RDM has spells others do not.

As far as enfeebles, I was aiming directly at the stuff that works in absolutes. It's why I'd suggest something like turning Paralyze into Attack Down & Accuracy Down, with values scaling along with Enfeebling Skill. This makes T2 somewhat moot if you make changes, but I wouldn't loose sleep over T2 enfeebles going away forever and RDM getting something else in place of it. Hell, RDM merits need an overhaul anyways.

Reducing the target's defense is mathematically the same as enhancing everyone's attack, thus you can indirectly buff your alliance. This would be inline with what the dev's vision of RDM is.Except that Bio could then be used to mitigate incoming damage. Having both spells stack would also make it seem like the spell is not there to just take up space. Nerf the DoT on Bio if the combined DoTs seem to be too much, but both effects should be usable on the same mob.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Would like to see this spell set that has points to waste on Frightful Roar.

And is casting Dia2 because no one else can.

And is having to sub rdm while meleeing- you know what, your scenario is just all kinds of terrible.

[saevel]

I don't believe in spell exclusivity on RDM because the class by concept borrows from other classes. The application and use of the stuff they borrow is what should make the job unique, not whether RDM has spells others do not.

As far as enfeebles, I was aiming directly at the stuff that works in absolutes. It's why I'd suggest something like turning Paralyze into Attack Down & Accuracy Down, with values scaling along with Enfeebling Skill. This makes T2 somewhat moot if you make changes, but I wouldn't loose sleep over T2 enfeebles going away forever and RDM getting something else in place of it. Hell, RDM merits need an overhaul anyways.
Except that Bio could then be used to mitigate incoming damage. Having both spells stack would also make it seem like the spell is not there to just take up space. Nerf the DoT on Bio if the combined DoTs seem to be too much, but both effects should be usable on the same mob.

They should make enfeebling magic job specific on RDM for the same reason Aflatus / Cure V / pretty much all of WHM, is job specific to WHM and why -ja nukes are job specific to BLM. It creates a role for each job to fill and prevents players from abusing one job over the others. This is a thread about buff RDM's enfeebling capacity to make it actually useful, would be counter productive to make awesome debuffs then give them to everyone else.

Monster vs Player melee damage formula works differently then us to the monster. I believe our friends have been busy figuring this out. We've all known for years that defense becomes useless after a certain easy to reach point. That's why turtle PLD's have went the way for the dodo long before Abyssea was every created. You mitigate more damage by killing the target faster then by attempting to reduce it's attack.

[saevel]

Would like to see this spell set that has points to waste on Frightful Roar.

And is casting Dia2 because no one else can.

And is having to sub rdm while meleeing- you know what, your scenario is just all kinds of terrible.

It was to prove a point, that BLU has more enfeebling capability then RDM. The fact that enfeebling is completely useless is irreverent to that comparison. That BLU's don't even bother trying to use their enfeebling magic in favor or their offensive magic proved my point.

Every BLU I've seen in the past three weeks in VWNM has been /RDM, half were using staves, the other half were sword + boarding it with Mag.Acc swords. It's enough to make your eyes bleed, but apparently that's become the new "standard" for BLUs now.

[cidbahamut]

It was to prove a point, that BLU has more enfeebling capability then RDM. The fact that enfeebling is completely useless is irreverent to that comparison. That BLU's don't even bother trying to use their enfeebling magic in favor or their offensive magic proved my point.

Every BLU I've seen in the past three weeks in VWNM has been /RDM, half were using staves, the other half were sword + boarding it with Mag.Acc swords. It's enough to make your eyes bleed, but apparently that's become the new "standard" for BLUs now.

The fact that you can comprehend that magic accuracy sword BLUs are terribad, but not quite grasp that cure/haste-only rdms are equally terribad utterly baffles me.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I don't believe in spell exclusivity on RDM because the class by concept borrows from other classes. The application and use of the stuff they borrow is what should make the job unique, not whether RDM has spells others do not.

As far as enfeebles, I was aiming directly at the stuff that works in absolutes. It's why I'd suggest something like turning Paralyze into Attack Down & Accuracy Down, with values scaling along with Enfeebling Skill. This makes T2 somewhat moot if you make changes, but I wouldn't loose sleep over T2 enfeebles going away forever and RDM getting something else in place of it. Hell, RDM merits need an overhaul anyways.
Except that Bio could then be used to mitigate incoming damage. Having both spells stack would also make it seem like the spell is not there to just take up space. Nerf the DoT on Bio if the combined DoTs seem to be too much, but both effects should be usable on the same mob.

RDM is quite a bit different from the previous game and enters in territories such as Mystic Knight and so on, and unlike previous games they do have a specialty, they specialise in Enfeebling and as such they should have unique spells in that field and I mean outside of merits.

[Greatguardian]

Monster vs Player melee damage formula works differently then us to the monster. I believe our friends have been busy figuring this out. We've all known for years that defense becomes useless after a certain easy to reach point. That's why turtle PLD's have went the way for the dodo long before Abyssea was every created. You mitigate more damage by killing the target faster then by attempting to reduce it's attack.

My model has the formula nearly working the same way, except that monsters have a lower cRatio floor at 1.0 and generally have ridiculously high Attack values. I mean like 1,500-2,000 Attack being common for strong NMs.

It's typically more that Defense is useless in small numbers, and becomes increasingly effective until the cutoff point at 1.0 cRatio. The problem is, in order to reach those relatively nice returns, you need assloads of defense - like full turtle 1k-2k defense. Stacking enough Defense-specific buffs to get that sort of rating is just counterintuitive because of all the powerful offensive buffs you give up in doing so, and because no matter what monsters will never score below 1.0 cRatio on you (meaning you can't ever fully mitigate damage).

Likewise, because cRatio caps, the difference between something like 2 Defense and 500 Defense is absolutely nil - allowing people to use abilities like Berserk and Counterstance with absolute impunity on stronger monsters.

[Motenten]

There is no 1.0 floor for mob cRatio; I tested. However mobs get positive level correction when fighting players, which means it's virtually impossible to get cRatio that low when fighting high level mobs.

Ig-Alima (lvl 120) hitting a pld who has 1000 defense would be working with a 2.06 cRatio (or maybe 2.11; little fuzzy there). If the pld miraculously gained another 1000 defense (2000 total), Ig-Alima would still have a 1.53 (or 1.58) cRatio against him.

Also, the claim that 1500-2000 is common for strong NMs seems unsubstantiated. The only known attack value we have is 1059 for Ig-Alima.

[Duelle]

RDM is quite a bit different from the previous game and enters in territories such as Mystic Knight and so onI'd say enspells lean in that "application and use of the stuff RDM borrows" direction. Sure, it was inspired by Mystic Knight, but if it were taken straight from Mystic Knight, we would have Spellblade and would be casting nukes through our swords (something I'd outright welcome, mind you).

That being said, RDM is hardier than your standard mage, but weaker than your average warrior. It'd make sense for them to use their (self-cast) buffs or Job abilities to lean one way or the other to make up for what they lack vs the standard mage or warrior.

Connected to this is a point I brought up in the DRK nuke thread: just because we borrow spells does not mean said spells should work exactly the same as those form the jobs we borrow them from. Nukes in particular are subject to this because Elemental nukes follow the damage ruleset that BLM follows...which clearly favors BLMs. Which means one job gets spells they can use, the others have wastes of space and little more. A spell cast by a BLM or WHM or SCH should look or act different when cast by the melee-caster hybrids (PLD, DRK and RDM). Fire from a RDM should be different from Fire from a DRK, which would be different from the "original" version cast by BLM or SCH. That way you have uniqueness in terms of gameplay without having to add something completely different to make the job seem "unique".

and unlike previous games they do have a specialty, they specialise in Enfeebling and as such they should have unique spells in that field and I mean outside of merits.Which hasn't exactly panned out. The fact that Final Fantasy's debuff spells are for the most part absolutes don't help at all. Which goes back to what I said several posts ago: redesign enfeebles to work and be balanced in a standard MMO setting instead of trying to port the effects straight out of a console FF and then be forced to make your mobs immune to said effects to prevent said effects from making the encounters trivial or outright nerf the effects when cast by player characters (see: Break).

[saevel]

My model has the formula nearly working the same way, except that monsters have a lower cRatio floor at 1.0 and generally have ridiculously high Attack values. I mean like 1,500-2,000 Attack being common for strong NMs.

It's typically more that Defense is useless in small numbers, and becomes increasingly effective until the cutoff point at 1.0 cRatio. The problem is, in order to reach those relatively nice returns, you need assloads of defense - like full turtle 1k-2k defense. Stacking enough Defense-specific buffs to get that sort of rating is just counterintuitive because of all the powerful offensive buffs you give up in doing so, and because no matter what monsters will never score below 1.0 cRatio on you (meaning you can't ever fully mitigate damage).

Likewise, because cRatio caps, the difference between something like 2 Defense and 500 Defense is absolutely nil - allowing people to use abilities like Berserk and Counterstance with absolute impunity on stronger monsters.

GG you do realize I was the person who came up with the 1.0 Ratio idea originally, it was shortly after ToAU was released and I had leveled up /BLU for my RDM. I went out testing some defense values (Pro IV + Cocoon + Taco) and saw absolutely no difference fighting VT monsters. Knowing that monsters do not have ridiculously high attack, without some sort of buffs (berserk) or them being a DRK, I had to figure out why I wasn't forcing their damage to the 0.5 floor we know. I never thought of there being a positive level correction and their formula scaling completely differently then ours. I had assumed that if I could get the monster to 0.5 that it would start hitting for 0 similar to what happens with us.

Testing has recently shown that while there isn't a 1.0 ratio floor, vs anything bigger then you the chances of you getting under 1.0 are rather slim. And even then the actual benefit would be small.

[saevel]

RDM is quite a bit different from the previous game and enters in territories such as Mystic Knight and so on

Actually not really. Enspells are the only thing different, otherwise RDM is ~exactly~ the same as in FFI, FFIII, and FFV. If you doubt this pick up the GBA / DS versions and find out. Their cheap and relatively easy to find on amazon.

That is actually the problem with FFXI now, SE focused too much on keeping RDM like it was in previous FF's. RDM has always had white magic but not as a good as WHM, had black magic but not as good as BLM, and wore armor and swords but not as good as Fighter. You were limited to four members and whatever jobs you chose you had to stick with, for this reason the RDM typically replaced either the THF or BLM. In III and V you could class change so you had a bit more personal choice. I liked RDM as it was good at clearing out ash & trash mobs during the dungeon exploration portion and could switch to buffs / debuffs / healing during the dungeon boss portion. In FFV RDM was the same although severely limited to level 3 magic which made the job virtually useless after midgame. At the end of FFV all jobs paled compared to freelancer / mimic which gained the powers of all mastered jobs and thus was radically overpowered. For a good portion near the beginning to middle RDM was useful as you could switch out the "sub" ability between battles.

Those idea's are great for console RPGs as it allows the players to experiment and play around, they don't work for a MMO because nobody will accept less then "optimal". Instead of (Fighter / Thief / Red Mage / White Mage) you get (Fighter / Fighter / Fighter / White Mage). The first group is my favorite to play, the second group is the absolute easiest to win the game on, so easy you'll think the game's a joke.