Final Heaven builds

[Gukai]

Hi all,
I am curious what peoples builds are for Final Heaven. Im trying to max it out, so dont hold back on the gear you suggest/use/would use. I've gotten it beyond Asuran Fist damage but I want to see how far I can take it. Thanks.

Current:
ammo: Tantra Tathlum
head: Genbu's Kabuto
l.ear: Kemas Earring
r.ear: Brutal Earring
body: Tantra Cyclas +2
hands: Tantra Gloves +2
l.ring: Spiral Ring
r.ring: Epona's Ring
back: Melee Cape
Waist: Warwolf Belt
legs: Kensei Sitabaki
feet: Tantra Gaiters +2

I appreciate it!

[MarkovChain]

Atheling should easily beat melee cape. For legs calmecac or barbarossa zereh. You get about +1% damage for 2 vits. In case fstr is uncapped that's ~+3.5% for barbarossa and ~+6% for calmecac while. Avoid calmecac if acc is uncapped obviously.

[Monchat]

Final heaven, a 2+ hit weaponskill. DA and TA gear are going to be an even better improvement than for victory smite.

Im going to build a decent set once my spharai is 95 ( stuck on 85 atm). What I think for now:

Neck: appropriate gorget from "In the name of sceinece" quest. Light since it works for VS too.
Back: atheling clearly better than melee cape.
Belt: Anguinus belt [ prob better than warwolf even @ capped acc]. There is a new DA belt.
Leg: calmecac or barbarossa's zereth.
Feet: there must be something better then tantra; tantra for acc, and if no need for acc, there is a DA feet from VNMs.
hands: tantra+2 looks like the best option for accuracy. There has to be something better for max damage.

I need to seriously think about a gear set, with in mind an accuracy balance, since cruor buff dont exist anymore.

[Mirage]

Aren't all the relic WSes single-hit even if the animation looks like it's multiple hits?

[Greatguardian]

Hand-to-Hand weaponskills are never single-hit. They get the extra strike on all "1-hit" WS from their off-hand.

[Mirage]

Oh yeah of course, I forgot about that. Well then, is Final Heaven have more than one hit, excluding the offhand hit?

[Monchat]

maybe "kick" type weaponskill are the same number of hits as advertise n the description, but things like combo, raging fists, voctory smite, have n+1 hits. combo advertised as 3 hits, is 4 hits, Victory smite, advertised as 4-hit, is 5 hit. etc.

[Mirage]

Yes, i understand, but how many hits is final heaven then? 2?

[Motenten]

1 advertised, 2 actual (including offhand)

[botaut]

Final heaven, a 2+ hit weaponskill. DA and TA gear are going to be an even better improvement than for victory smite.

Im going to build a decent set once my spharai is 95 ( stuck on 85 atm). What I think for now:

Neck: appropriate gorget from "In the name of sceinece" quest. Light since it works for VS too.
Back: atheling clearly better than melee cape.
Belt: Anguinus belt [ prob better than warwolf even @ capped acc]. There is a new DA belt.
Leg: calmecac or barbarossa's zereth.
Feet: there must be something better then tantra; tantra for acc, and if no need for acc, there is a DA feet from VNMs.
hands: tantra+2 looks like the best option for accuracy. There has to be something better for max damage.

I need to seriously think about a gear set, with in mind an accuracy balance, since cruor buff dont exist anymore.

ryuga sun ate for feet vit +7 and acc +10

[Monchat]

yeah i thought about it, and also a new AH neck str+6 vit+6 instead of gorget, and there is a r/e hand str+4 vit+4 from abyssea, or just the +22 attack gloves. Att prolly wins.

[Gukai]

I know what you mean about the hands. I did the tantra+ 2 for the h2h skill to increase the max damage potential, but i want to look into others. maybe something with a high attack... power searching on ffxiah atm... if we go for attack, we're again looking at o.kotes and h.kotes

[Gokku]

bando's 22atk you should have had them from level 75 cap

[hiko]

bando's 22atk you should have had them from level 75 cap
lot of mnk95 started level it after cap raise

[Gukai]

yep, i have the bandos.. I couldnt remember which i had because I never used o.kote and I know I stored the h.kotes... thanks for jogging the memory. I'll have to take it to dynamis, its the only true place one can test limit caps, taking off subs, etc. I hate those 'test bunny in ronfare' experiments... well, doing those myself lol. But dynamis gives consistent level mobs, i'm thinking statues would be good. get a max for my current setup and then play.

[Kodaijin87]

Here's the build I've been using for FH

Tantra Tathlum
Genbu's Kabuto
Justiciar's Troque
Brutal Earring
Kemas Earring
Tantra Cyclas +2
Tantra Gloves +2
Spiral Ring
Epona's Ring
Atheling Mantle
Anguinus Belt
Usukane Hizayaroi
Ryuga Sune-Ate

*I swap out temple gloves to tantra hands after boost*
*I like the usu legs for the atk and str*

Any suggetions that might push the dmg further would be great; I've done up to 3500 with dbl/triple atk proc outside of abyss. Average about 1500-2k.

[Monchat]

Here's the build I've been using for FH

Tantra Tathlum
Genbu's Kabuto
Justiciar's Troque
Brutal Earring
Kemas Earring
Tantra Cyclas +2
Tantra Gloves +2
Spiral Ring
Epona's Ring
Atheling Mantle
Anguinus Belt
Usukane Hizayaroi
Ryuga Sune-Ate

*I swap out temple gloves to tantra hands after boost*
*I like the usu legs for the atk and str*

Any suggetions that might push the dmg further would be great; I've done up to 3500 with dbl/triple atk proc outside of abyss. Average about 1500-2k.


Honestly I changed my mind about final heaven builds. I think there are two points of view:

- you can focus on multi hits since both hits can double or triple attack. However what people tend to forget is that the additional hits no longer have capped accuracy. So in a multi attack build (atheling, brutal, epona and even calmecac's leggings), you need to fucus hard on accuracy, or DA/TA are useless. Keeping in mind that the main hit is 3.0 ftp (3.1 with gorget) and additional hits count for 1.0, i.e. about 60-75% of FH damage comes from the first hit, I'm not ure this is the right way to do it.

-The second point of view which I think is better it to build purely on VIT/STR/ATT and ignore accuracy since the main hit is accuracy capped. Doing that I can pump about 170 VIT and 146 STR, while sacrifying 35 acc ( i.e 30 less acc than TP set). While my multi hit build which is ballanced , accuracy wise, with my TP set, has 136 STR 135 VIT +22 attack.

The set Im looking forward to is:

tantra thatlum
genbu/tsjukurppas necklace/ vit+2 earringsx2
tantra/ample gloves/VIT+6/tavnazia boss earring (VIT+5 H2H+5)
melee cape/warwlof/byakko's haidat eaugment: +6 VIT/ryuga.

While the multi hit set up is: replace VIT earring, ring, back by epona/brutal/atheling, and use tantra+2 gloves and anguinus belt for acc (+27)

[MarkovChain]

I have Relic 95 still ~85% of level 95 empy so it is comfortably inferior to the 90 one. Without going into specific stats setups on mobs and gearchoice, I assume 150 str/vit for both weapons before the +17 on vere is accoundted for though. Otherwise standard gear. Here is a summary



"global damage per sec relic,empy, relic/empy"= [433.0880399, 516.6229122, 0.8383059088]
"critical hit rate%-melee" [0.1919203793, 0.2044734681]
"melee%" [67.2%, 62%]
"melee dmg p/s" [291.2711309, 320.5358350]
"WSdmg p/s" [141.8169105, 196.0870570]
"round per WS avg" [6.863417982, 7.027406887]
"avg Ws dmg" [FH=2188.079969,VS=2826.925685]
"avg punch incl. KA and DA" [256.5632667, 257.1374154]



I'm using 12% triple proc rate on first hand only, 20% odd proc rate on both hands for vere, and 20% innate crit boost on all hits for VS.

Seems that relic's strong point is indeed melee damage per hit though overtime the lower delay on vere wins. Vere owns as far as WS damage overtime goes too, it basically wins everywhere and I don't really see situation where spharai is better. If someone knows if crit% applies to all hits or not please post. However even if VS had zero innate crit rate the empy would still be better. Also even if the triple proced on both hands vere would win (yes..). Although I didn't check carefully I think impetus greatly advantages vere so I'm hoping that the next WS is going to favor the relic (as such it should not be crit based ..).

[Greatguardian]

Was the usage of 20% ODD on both hands for Vere a matter of making the math simpler? Or just a typo? I'm fairly certain ODD cannot proc on the main hand for Vere unless something changed in the 95 version.

[MarkovChain]

It doesn't matter, it's an average...

[Greatguardian]

It doesn't matter, it's an average...

That's why I asked if it was just a matter of making the math simpler. Which it appears to be. Carry on, then. I was more hopeful that they changed the ODD on the 95 weapons, really =/.

[Kodaijin87]

Honestly I changed my mind about final heaven builds. I think there are two points of view:

- you can focus on multi hits since both hits can double or triple attack. However what people tend to forget is that the additional hits no longer have capped accuracy. So in a multi attack build (atheling, brutal, epona and even calmecac's leggings), you need to fucus hard on accuracy, or DA/TA are useless. Keeping in mind that the main hit is 3.0 ftp (3.1 with gorget) and additional hits count for 1.0, i.e. about 60-75% of FH damage comes from the first hit, I'm not ure this is the right way to do it.

-The second point of view which I think is better it to build purely on VIT/STR/ATT and ignore accuracy since the main hit is accuracy capped. Doing that I can pump about 170 VIT and 146 STR, while sacrifying 35 acc ( i.e 30 less acc than TP set). While my multi hit build which is ballanced , accuracy wise, with my TP set, has 136 STR 135 VIT +22 attack.

The set Im looking forward to is:

tantra thatlum
genbu/tsjukurppas necklace/ vit+2 earringsx2
tantra/ample gloves/VIT+6/tavnazia boss earring (VIT+5 H2H+5)
melee cape/warwlof/byakko's haidat eaugment: +6 VIT/ryuga.

While the multi hit set up is: replace VIT earring, ring, back by epona/brutal/atheling, and use tantra+2 gloves and anguinus belt for acc (+27)


So I decided to test my "Old Final Settup" vs. "STR/VIT/ATK Settup"
(Old Settup)
Spharai(95)
Tantra Tathlum
Genbu's Kabuto
Justiciar's Torque
Brutal Earring
Kemas Earring
Tantra Cyclas +2
Bandomusha Kote
Spiral Ring
Epona's Ring
Atheling Mantle
Anguinus Belt
Usukane Hizayaroi (Will eventually go with Hachiryu Haidate, unless something better comes out)
Ryuga Sune-Ate

Settup End Result:
Attack: 742
STR: 126
VIT: 137

"New Settup"
Spharai(95)
Tantra Tathlum
Genbu's Kabuto
Justiciar's Torque
Soil Pearl
Kemas Earring
Tantra Cyclas +2
Bandomusha Kote
Spiral Ring
Terrasoul Ring
Cerberus Mantle +1
Warwolf Belt
Usukane Hizayaroi (Will eventually go with Hachiryu Haidate, unless something better comes out)
Ryuga Sune-Ate

Settup End Result:
ATK: 723
STR: 135
VIT: 152

The results I came up with doing the math myself was that the "Old Settup" has the possibility of doing higher damage from time to time resulting from the dbl/trpl atk procs; where the "New Settup" results in a more even and consitant damage output. Both settups are very close to each other on an Average, but looking at the numbers after having recorded them adding more str/vit/atk will even you out. However, if you like seeing that occ. high damage from your FH then atk/dbl/trpl. atk settup would be the one for you. Al were performed without food, and boosted with Temple Gloves. All were preformed on same mobs.

Again, please comment ^^ they're welcome, been playing MNK a long time, but always open to learn something I maybe dont know or understand.

[Atoreis]

maybe "kick" type weaponskill are the same number of hits as advertise n the description, but things like combo, raging fists, voctory smite, have n+1 hits. combo advertised as 3 hits, is 4 hits, Victory smite, advertised as 4-hit, is 5 hit. etc.

Nope You are wrong. Combo is 3 hit, Vsmite is 4hit raging is 5 hit etc. Only one hit h2h WS are 2hits in reality. Multihits have sub hand counted in description.

[MarkovChain]

Atoreis go back to BG do bad maths and act like you know shit. It's easy to count the number of hits, you just have to count your TPs. All ws have n+1 hits if n is listed and the first 2 hits get a full tp return. Well except asuran fist but yeah...

Victory smite, as such, is FIVE hits yo.

[Monchat]

@atoreis wrong. Its possible to get 10+ TP from final heaven.... therefore it is 2+hit. VS is 5 hit, combos is 4, asuran fist is 8 because 8 is the cap.

[Atoreis]

Atoreis go back to BG do bad maths and act like you know shit. It's easy to count the number of hits, you just have to count your TPs. All ws have n+1 hits if n is listed and the first 2 hits get a full tp return. Well except asuran fist but yeah...

Victory smite, as such, is FIVE hits yo.

Except when I am not sure about something I do test before writing bs. So I did in this case.

Round of hits from 0TP put me at 9TP
Combo gave 10TP
Raging 12TP
Vsmite 11TP
I think you can make simple math to make a conclusion from those numbers? Do it then and check by yourself if you don't believe it.

Being mad on BG because you probably got banned or something is not really a reason to be mean ^^
Can't wait to make sig of your next post after you check it be yourself :D

To clear this up - One hit H2H WSs are actually 2hit because of sub hand hit ( similar to one hit WS when dual wielding). Multihit WSs have sub hand already counted in description.

Conclusions: Want a real info? Go to BG :)

Ps. Thx Mischief for haste while testing :)

[MarkovChain]

In one word : you are an idiot. You just proved that you don't know how TP return work.

[BigPapaBlueJay]

In one word : you are an idiot. You just proved that you don't know how TP return work.

One word?

Also, on topic, his test is easily recreateable if you are so inclined. Make sure you are naked and sub something that isn't WAR. Also, if inside abyssea, do not use multi-hit atma's. Perform a single attack round in which 2 fist hits connect from 0 TP and record what is received. Next, perform the weapon skills in question and record TP result. Take note that the first 2 strikes of a H2H weapon skill will yield full TP return (the first number you recorded). Assuming you do not miss, all one hit H2H weapon skills will yield full TP return as if you performed an attack round normally. H2H (note the weapon type as this doesn't apply to other weapons) weapon skills with multiple strikes, assuming no miss, will yield full TP return (first number recorded) + number of hits the weapon skill lists in its description - 2. Using the test information that was provided earlier, you can see Victory Smite yielded 11 TP, 9 (attack round, 2 hits) + 4 (hits listed in description) - 2 (2 hits already performed). Victory Smite is a 4 hit weapon skill that may increase beyond the 4 hits described only if you double, triple, or quadruple attack during the weapon skill; the "off-hand" fist is counted in multi hit H2H weapon skill descriptions.

[MarkovChain]

I have Relic 95 still ~85% of level 95 empy so it is comfortably inferior to the 90 one. Without going into specific stats setups on mobs and gearchoice, I assume 150 str/vit for both weapons before the +17 on vere is accoundted for though. Otherwise standard gear. Here is a summary




I'm using 12% triple proc rate on first hand only, 20% odd proc rate on both hands for vere, and 20% innate crit boost on all hits for VS.

Seems that relic's strong point is indeed melee damage per hit though overtime the lower delay on vere wins. Vere owns as far as WS damage overtime goes too, it basically wins everywhere and I don't really see situation where spharai is better. If someone knows if crit% applies to all hits or not please post. However even if VS had zero innate crit rate the empy would still be better. Also even if the triple proced on both hands vere would win (yes..). Although I didn't check carefully I think impetus greatly advantages vere so I'm hoping that the next WS is going to favor the relic (as such it should not be crit based ..).

Small update to this : I updated the ODD rate at 15% average since It wasn't changed as I tested the level 95 one. I also accounted for ODD "up" and "down" since my previous one assumed ODD to be up 100% of the time. Also accounted for a possible 4-hit vere.



"global dps relic95/empy95"
[433.7435899, 463.9398252, 0.9349134658]
"melee dmg p/s"
[285.6451572, 293.1760835]
"WSdmg p/s"
[148.0984334, 170.7637408]
"round per WS avg"
[6.561679790, 6.729475101]
"avg Ws dmg"
[2197.562877, 2371.954937]


Relic is still far from vere. Note that level 90 vere is still 2% better than level 95 relic.

[Atoreis]

In one word : you are an idiot. You just proved that you don't know how TP return work.

Now it's actually hilarious from your part ^^ You really that mad on BG that you will disclaim pure facts and be blind for them?

I hope BigPapa described this for you simple enough that you can finally get it. In case you still haven't:

Combo 10 TP return - 9TP(2hits) +1=10 total 3 hits
Vsmite 11 TP return - 9TP(2hits) +2=11 total 4 hits
Raging 12 TP return - 9TP(2hits) +3=12 total 5 hits

[SNK]

In one word : you are an idiot. You just proved that you don't know how TP return work.

I think your ban on BG is almost up soon.

[Taint2]

I think your ban on BG is almost up soon.


Don't threaten me

[Shadowsong]

Atoreis go back to BG do bad maths and act like you know shit. It's easy to count the number of hits, you just have to count your TPs. All ws have n+1 hits if n is listed and the first 2 hits get a full tp return. Well except asuran fist but yeah...

Aww, where'd your sig quoting Atoreis go? I thought you were "sticking it to him"?

[Monchat]

So I decided to test my "Old Final Settup" vs. "STR/VIT/ATK Settup"
(Old Settup)
Spharai(95)
Tantra Tathlum
Genbu's Kabuto
Justiciar's Torque
Brutal Earring
Kemas Earring
Tantra Cyclas +2
Bandomusha Kote
Spiral Ring
Epona's Ring
Atheling Mantle
Anguinus Belt
Usukane Hizayaroi (Will eventually go with Hachiryu Haidate, unless something better comes out)
Ryuga Sune-Ate

Settup End Result:
Attack: 742
STR: 126
VIT: 137

"New Settup"
Spharai(95)
Tantra Tathlum
Genbu's Kabuto
Justiciar's Torque
Soil Pearl
Kemas Earring
Tantra Cyclas +2
Bandomusha Kote
Spiral Ring
Terrasoul Ring
Cerberus Mantle +1
Warwolf Belt
Usukane Hizayaroi (Will eventually go with Hachiryu Haidate, unless something better comes out)
Ryuga Sune-Ate

Settup End Result:
ATK: 723
STR: 135
VIT: 152

The results I came up with doing the math myself was that the "Old Settup" has the possibility of doing higher damage from time to time resulting from the dbl/trpl atk procs; where the "New Settup" results in a more even and consitant damage output. Both settups are very close to each other on an Average, but looking at the numbers after having recorded them adding more str/vit/atk will even you out. However, if you like seeing that occ. high damage from your FH then atk/dbl/trpl. atk settup would be the one for you. Al were performed without food, and boosted with Temple Gloves. All were preformed on same mobs.

Again, please comment ^^ they're welcome, been playing MNK a long time, but always open to learn something I maybe dont know or understand.

I basically agree with what you said. More or less the same gear. Just about the legs, don't get hachiryu just for Heaven ( good for VS or asuran though). It's possible to get +6 VIT on byakko's haidate as a common HQ3 augment too, if you don't want to farm Barbarossa's zereth ( which is a rare drop off The ashu talif BC #3).

After fucking around on lv 95-96 mobs in dynamis and parse, I decided I hate final heaven, for its inconstency. Reminded me why I hated SAM. One time you do 300 damage ( first hit missed) on time you do 3500...Then I realized final heaven still doesn't beat asuran fists most of the time, or at least not unless it tripple procs... despite the +25% damage boost lol thats kinda pathetic. Asuran fists has also the advantage of having 15-16 TP return while FH is 9-11.

With the following set ups for both WS, they math out to be about equal, slight advantage to asuran, if you dont triple (honestly have yet to triple a FH).

Final Heaven:
tantra thatlum, Genbu's kabuto, Light gorget, brutal earring, kemas earring, tantra cyclas+2,
ample gloves, spiral ring, epona's ring, atheling mantle, warwolf belt, barbarossa, ryuga.

Asuran:
thew bomblet, shura kabuto +1 (augment: str+1 WS+3%), shadow gorget, merman's, aesir, tantra cyclas+2, tantra gloves+2, mars's ring, spiral ring, atheling, anguinus, hachiryu leg, tantra leg+2.

Both can be better optimized obviously; for example tjurkuppa necklace for FH, Justiciar for asuran, b.kote ( sold my kotes long ago..) cerb+1 etc. But with those set up its pretty clear mathemetically that asuran wins:

FH with 3% DA, 11%TA and gorget has about 4.6fTP, and 145 VIT give 72 mods; With capped fSTR you have 109 base dmg so FH will look like

(109+72)*4.6*1.25=1040.

While asuran fists, with 141 STR and 107 VIT, has ~20 mods so its damage will look like:
(110+20)*8.1*1.03=1084.

Factor in the +60 attack asuran fists has, which should be 10% more damage at least, then you have a clear winner, asuran fists by 15-20% lol.

However after you take into account triple proc ( again I maybe saw one, that overkilled a low HP mob anyway), FH has a slight advantage, but that is annuled by asuran fists's naturally high return.

[MarkovChain]

I personnally have asuran fists lower on average but probably because I systematically assume dia2+ red curry buns and mobs with moderate defense. I'm actually studying the effect of "finite hp mobs" and the inherent idle time between pulls on the DPS. So far it seems that 2 or more seconds pause bewteen mobs and 10,000 HP mobs make relic shine over verethragna. I also tell to my algorithm not to us WS under 1k HP. With this in mind it seems that relic + FH is still better, though not by much (~1%) than relic + asuran, and both easily surpass vere(95) by 5%-10%. In practice it's much worse for vere since there is a decent amount of time where the aftermath is up but you can't use it, and since FH's aftermath sucks, you don't lose DPS with the relic if you turn your back. Also it's good news for relic owners if our next WS is better than asuran, which it should be. Also it's very good news for PUP if they ever get to equip spharai.

[MarkovChain]

Ok so after semi optimizing VS (can get 190 STR on elvaan fairly easily), FH ( ~145 str & vit), asuran (140 str and attack stock piled) I'm getting all three setups more or less on par.

VS average ~ 2511
FH average ~ 2175
asuran with relic ~ 1983

*with 0 waiting time against infinite HP mobs (level 96)
relic+FH is 7% worse than empy (not counting counter +)
relic + FH is 1.8% better than relic+asuran



*overall, with 3 sec waiting time between fights against 10,000 HP mobs (level 96) :
relic+FH is 6% better than empy (not counting counter +)
relic + FH is 1.5% better than relic+asuran

*with 4 sec waiting time between fights against 10,000 HP mobs (level 96):
relic+FH is 10% better than empy (not counting counter +)
relic + FH is 1.6% better than relic+asuran


Seems that Vere is better 'in theory" and relic is better "in practice". Like mdk pointed out the triple proc on WS, if it happens, is fairly pointless since it's going to one shot mobs and unless you just started (and proced) the mobs and a 3x proced. So in reality the good old asuran fists is .. still the best™.

edit : if I don't count that 3x can proc on ws

with 3 sec waiting time between fights against 10,000 HP mobs (level 96) I have

relic+FH = verethragna < relic + asuran as expected but everything is within ~1% range of each other.

[Gukai]

Really guys, this was my post, and I asked about FH builds. I care not and asked not for the empy, so get off it and go debate about it on another thread thats actually dedicated towards the discussion, I know they exist.

For the people who have stayed true to the intent of the FH build, thank you. I saw some interesting idea's and I am going to take the gear differences, 1 item at a time, and do some testing. I'll try the Justicier Torque (yay, I have that already), then I'll try the Atheling Mantle, and then Anguinus Belt, and Usu legs (I'll compare to the Hachiryu Haidate for thoroughness). I dont have Ryuga feet yet, bummer. I might look into the augments for byakko short-shorts though. I saw Tsjukruppas necklace mentioned and the Portus Ring that has the h2h skill and vit from one of the Tavnazia boss (nice catch).
I have always been a 'in the field' kind of tester, although I see some of you do the math side and some of you noticed that your math results werent matching your actual findings! I just plan to pick a high mob that has a consistent level to fight, get max and average damages with one item, swap it for a new item and see the differences. Nothing too scientific, but like those who actually paid attention to the topic, we just want to try something else and see if we can learn more how to push our limits! Thanks again

[Greatguardian]

Like anyone cares what the OP thinks after a topic's been started.

What kind of WS frequency are you assuming when comparing Relic and Empyrean with delays between fights, Pchan? I'm having trouble imagining a 3 or 4 second delay between fights causing Aftermath to be down for any significant amount of time with Vere, especially if you're getting Marches and/or Samba. It could just be the targets, though. Delays like that would add up quickly in short fights against weak monsters, notsomuch against anything stronger.

[MarkovChain]

I don't assume any ws frequency, everything is simulated but I can give it. The x second delay greatly affects the empy but what also affects it is the limited HP and the fact that I choose not to WS under 1k HP remaining.

I actually corrected my spharai setups since it's gaining more haste from gjallahorn than +51 delay weapons, so it's even stronger.

The freq=#rounds/ws doesn't depend on mob delay it is
[6.688941455 for relic+FH, 7.049318624 for empy, 6.304524362 for relic+asuran]
It's lower for asuran because of higher TP return ( 0.38 rounds and it gets 4-5 more tp which is about that)

If I set mob's HP at 10k and choose not to ws under 1HP remaining (which means I always ws), it naturally puts the ws freq to what it should be in theory (if you don't hold tp at low HP)
[6.416572077, 6.809552600, 6.081125828]
In this case relic+asuran still wins though.

So it seems that what greatly affects dps is when AM is up and you swap mobs. Same problem as mythics btw. If I set the delay to zero, in which cas vere wins, I'm getting ~ 410-450 damage per second depending on weapons so that's ~24 seconds to kill a mob so a 2,3, or 4 second delay is necessarily important. Look at it this way : whenever you get the AM effect, you remove 2-4 seconds from it because it will be up when you pause.

Note : the algorithm is not perfect yet since I count full ws damage even if it's overkill.

[Atoreis]

So Relic can now proc x3 on WS cool.

If you really think Veret wont win with Spharai(using FH) in term of pure damage you might rethink doing a math for this game at all ^^

[MarkovChain]

No relic can't proc on WS.


So Relic can now proc x3 on WS cool.

If you really think Veret wont win with Spharai(using FH) in term of pure damage you might rethink doing a math for this game at all ^^

It doesn't because mob have finite HP and I verify it every day in dynamis. I got level 95 vere and mdk uses the level 95 relic and we pull 500ish coins both so yeah. So yeah it will probably hurt your ego but my math doesn't include 3x proc on WS and spharai owns by a large margin.

[Monchat]

go ahead do the math smart ass [in before: lets assume 30%/70% ws/melee split kind of fail BG maths]

Also he never said that you can get a triple proc. I said myself I never got it ( or just maybe once, which could also be a epnona's ring proc). Just mention it because someone in the early post in the tread said it can. Its not hard to imagine verethragna will lose if its aftermath isnt up often.

You're quick at denoucing people to the internet police lol.

[Atoreis]

go ahead do the math smart ass [in before: lets assume 30%/70% ws/melee split kind of fail BG maths]

Also he never said that you can get a triple proc. I said myself I never got it ( or just maybe once, which could also be a epnona's ring proc). Just mention it because someone in the early post in the tread said it can. Its not hard to imagine verethragna will lose if its aftermath isnt up often.

You're quick at denoucing people to the internet police lol.

Relic proc on WS would triple you WS dmg. Triple attack from epona on Final heaven is +50%. 2x Triple attack is double the damage. If Pchan was confused because of you than you should apologize him :)

Relic triple proc assumin your 30/70 split is only like +4% overall damage ( how? 10% for triple is +20% dmg from melee but its only for one hand so its 10%. This 10% * 0.7 (from split) is 7%. Relic cant proc on second or third hit of DA/TA and thats like at least 15-20% of you hits. 6%*0.85 is 5.1%. Now fists damage from melee damage is around 90% ( 10% is kicks on which relic cant proc either. 90/10 fists/kicks dmaage split is total guess in favor of spharai. correct me if i am very wrong here. that makes 5.1*0.9= 4.59% Add accuracy correction (95%) and overkilling and you have around 4% increase in overall damage from relic triple proc. Assuming Pchan's avg Vsmite and Final heaven which is hard to believe but I will use it anyway. Avg Smite is ~16% higher. 16%*0.3 (from your melee/ws split again) is 4.8% overall increase (around 4% after acc correction and overkill). So even using your super skewed numbers Spharai is equal in dmg to Veret w/o aftermath up at all.

If you only joked about 30/70 split tell me plz what is true split because I seriously dont know, never tried to check/parse it because it will be different for all kind of events (for example squishy dynamis and VW when you have 20-45 saveTP, 5-10regain/tic, wings). But I will gladly listen what is a true ws/melee split for MNK.

INB4: BG math is useless. You are the only one that can do it right :)

[MarkovChain]

You don't know the split or how you could calculate the split ? It's means that you can't math out any DD. So yeah your place is truly on BG. Even alla mnk forums can do it.

1) Relic is 12% proc on one hand
2) No one said triple will proc on DA or on TA
3) You didn't read what is being discussed ; you are a troll. I explained that if there were no pause between mobs vere will win easily, so go back to being a tool.
4) I gave the average number of rounds required for a WS on average so with this, If you could calculate melee damage or WS damage, which you can't (judging from your post), you would be able to get the split.
5) why would the split be the same for the three situations : relic+FH/vere/relic+AF ¿

For your information in typical situations with 3 seconds delay
*relic melee damage average (including kick and triple) is 5% better than vere (including odd and kick)
* VS damage is 35% better than FH and asuran is 2% better than FH.
* Verehtragna TPs 6% less often than spharai

As a result in this case relic beats vere by 1.2%, and asuran is better anyway.

For your information in typical situations with infinite HP mobs
*relic melee damage average (including kick and triple) is 4.4% better than vere (including odd and kick)
* VS damage is 38% better than FH and asuran is ~2% better than FH.
* Verehtragna TPs 5.4% less often than spharai

As a result in this case vere is better by ~12%

[Atoreis]

You don't know the split or how you could calculate the split ? It's means that you can't math out any DD. So yeah your place is truly on BG. Even alla mnk forums can do it.

1) Relic is 12% proc on one hand
2) No one said triple will proc on DA or on TA
3) You didn't read what is being discussed ; you are a troll. I explained that if there were no pause between mobs vere will win easily, so go back to being a tool.
4) I gave the average number of rounds required for a WS on average so with this, If you could calculate melee damage or WS damage, which you can't (judging from your post), you would be able to get the split.
5) why would the split be the same for the three situations : relic+FH/vere/relic+AF ¿

For your information in typical situations with 3 seconds delay
*relic melee damage average (including kick and triple) is 5% better than vere (including odd and kick)
* VS damage is 35% better than FH and asuran is 2% better than FH.
* Verehtragna TPs 6% less often than spharai

As a result in this case relic beats vere by 1.2%, and asuran is better anyway.

For your information in typical situations with infinite HP mobs
*relic melee damage average (including kick and triple) is 4.4% better than vere (including odd and kick)
* VS damage is 38% better than FH and asuran is ~2% better than FH.
* Verehtragna TPs 5.4% less often than spharai

As a result in this case vere is better by ~12%

Its not about I cant math it. It is just different for many events and situation. I just dont care for it that much.
Believe in w/e you want tho. In the end we play for fun.

[Greatguardian]

I'm mainly wondering if you're using the incorrect assumption that Vereth Aftermath does not overwrite itself? Assuming you are getting Haste buffs, which you say you are, and there is only a 3 second delay between each fight, you should not be dropping Aftermath at all.

You keep saying that 3 second pauses between fights will cause Vere's Aftermath to be down for a significant chunk of time, but I'm having a hard time substantiating that claim. If you're going to post math in response to this, please have the courtesy to include units and proper formatting for us. You seemed to calculate WS frequency in terms of rounds to 100 TP last time, but that was completely irrelevant to the question I asked. The important number was Time to 100 TP in Seconds, because that would determine how long Vere's Aftermath goes down, if at all.

I think this was caused by a misunderstanding of what I had meant when I said WS frequency, maybe? Regardless, the number I was looking for was how often you were Weaponskilling, in Seconds, which is based on your post-buff Delay. Assuming Marches+Haste, or 68.3% Haste, that's a delay of 104.927. Assuming we use your calculations on Rounds/WS, that's 7.04931 rounds or 739.6629 delay per WS. That translates to 12.32 seconds per WS. Aftermath level 1 has a duration of 30 seconds and overwrites itself. In what situation are you going going to spend more than 18 seconds between weaponskills with a 3 second delay between mobs? If this does not occur, then Vere Aftermath will never drop at all.

[MarkovChain]

you don't have 104 delay since it caps at 106 first, secondly the aftermath doesn't overwrite itself.

[Greatguardian]

104=>106 delay doesn't change the numbers by very much, and are you entirely sure that Level 1 Aftermath doesn't overwrite itself? =/. Nearly a year with my Vere and I've never seen AM drop unless I'm idling or using a Level 2 or 3 Aftermath.

[MarkovChain]

Nvm it overwrite itself. However the point still stands as far as procing goes which is the only content in the game right now.

[MarkovChain]

After fixing the program Vere is still confortably (10%) ahead of relic in the case a 3s delay between mobs. Secondly asuran still pawns FH which is the news of the thread.

[Monchat]

vereth's strength comes from its aftermaths, while spharai's aftermaths blows. Since SE clearly refuses to fix relic, the only possible thing that can make relic better, is the new WS we will get.

From parsings, Victory smite is easilly 30% or more than spharai's asuran fists. But the new weaponskill doesn't have to be better than victory smite. If it is somewhere between asuran fists and VS, the relic will be #1 again, just need to know how much better than asuran fists it needs to be. Lol I sold all my sellable FH gears now that im convinced it cannot break asuran fists and bought some good asuran gear sets out there [ rager ledelsens, mars's ring and the str+4 att+15 necklace]. There is also a new atack+25 back item. Im easilly 100 attack above my VS or FH gear sets , and do quite good asurans ( 1800s when vere would do 2200).

[MarkovChain]

The problem is that you need to large of a WS boost to make them match (30% ish) since melee dot is about equal in the end.

[Atoreis]

JP MNK on Qilin today had 43/57 melee/WS ratio split.
His avg Vsmite was 1937 and he did one Asuran for 700.
Even assuming Relic Asuran would be closer to 1k it is still far far from Veret.
I dont have time to math it now because of RL but since you are so interested... wouldnt Ascetic fury beat Asuran by fair margin at least with Impetus up?

[MarkovChain]

Ascetic fury sucks. The math of verethragna vs FH vs asuran was done earlier give us a break. Vere thragna melee /ws split is 62%/38% with normal gear and buffs.

[Monchat]

ascetic Blows... My parses ( lv 95 mobs in dynamis): asuran fists with relic 95 versus victory smite with vere 90 (300 samples each set):

lv 95 Mob1:AF=1400 VS=1800
lv95 Mob2:AF=1900 VS=2200
lv95 Mob3: AF=1500 VS=1800

Both WS with optimized gearsets, red curry, minuet V no dia, no berzerk. This gives an idea of the relative difference and VS is at most 30% better on average.

[MarkovChain]

the mobs were level 95-96 since they are dyn mobs. Maybe 97.

[Greatguardian]

I'm really just curious at this point, but is there a reason you're alternating posting with your own mule? Or is that just MDKuser?

Honestly, I'm not too surprised that Asuran has a solid trail behind Smite. It's a solid WS. Most people just haven't bothered updating their set for it too much since 85. I didn't really expect Final Heaven to be worth a damn either, so I suppose everything turned out as expected.

[Atoreis]

Ascetic fury sucks. The math of verethragna vs FH vs asuran was done earlier give us a break. Vere thragna melee /ws split is 62%/38% with normal gear and buffs.

You need to be less defensive really.
I didnt write it to prove you wrong just wanted to show how things change basing on event you do.
On dynamis its 62/38 but on VW its more like 45/55. Non crit WS loses much more on harder things too. Avg Vsmite will be probably at least 70% better than Asuran on mobs like Qilin.

[MarkovChain]

No way lol. Your critical hit rate will be garbage unless you get some drink. It will be most likely floored at 10% + a few base (and I use 20% as base, so 30% total), that won't change the outcome much. Your JP guy does 2k it means that mob doesn't have defense.

As an exemple using +100 def compared to normal on a mob with +7 level correction I find
FH=1249 VS=1876 AF=1563

Using +200 def on a mob with +7 level correction I find
FH=975 VS=1586 AF=1352

Using +100 def on a mob with +10 level I find
FH=1100 VS=1681 AF=1388

Using +200 def on a mob with +10 level I find
FH=803 VS=1366 AF=1253

Let's put everything extreme, +400 def and +15 level correction :
FH=412.6170984 VS=952.5869455 AF=649.4817002

So in an absurdely defavorable situation VS is 46% better than asuran and in the others it's 20%,17%,21%,9%

When you increase the level difference even more the critical hit rate will be pathetic due to too high level correction so it's going to be <9%. The only thing that can make VS very high compared to asuran is near capped crit rate or moderate level correction and irreallistic defense.

[Atoreis]

No way lol. Your critical hit rate will be garbage unless you get some drink. It will be most likely floored at 10% + a few base (and I use 20% as base, so 30% total), that won't change the outcome much. Your JP guy does 2k it means that mob doesn't have defense.

As an exemple using +100 def compared to normal on a mob with +7 level correction I find
FH=1249 VS=1876 AF=1563

Using +200 def on a mob with +7 level correction I find
FH=975 VS=1586 AF=1352

Using +100 def on a mob with +10 level I find
FH=1100 VS=1681 AF=1388

Using +200 def on a mob with +10 level I find
FH=803 VS=1366 AF=1253

I am pretty sure that Vsmite is at least +15% at 100TP. Merit + base is 10%. Rancor is 5%. That's 30% and now there is impetus that is hard to tell really but assuming 90% accuracy its at least 5% crit rate and damage.

So at least 35%crit rate during Impetus and at least 5% crit damage.

In practice its much more actually because there can be WAR or 2 in party that will throw you blood rage. You might be more lucky on hits with Impetus ( like for example with 90% accuracy you can miss 2 in a row than hit 18 in a row and then your avg from impetus will raise ). Parse is best prove tho. I parsed them on 6 fights and on everytime his avg Vsmite was higher than WARs Ukkos and thats possible only with higher or similar crit rate and WAR have around 50% easily.

[MarkovChain]

No it's easy to tell

10% base 20% victory smite 10% average for impetus =40% which is the average crit% for the values I gave above.