Blue mage logic is based on a level 75 game

[Rambus]

I want to know why are set spells and set spell point gain has been so slow past 75. With how many points we need for trait upgrades and the way voidwatch works it is very unreasonable to have 60 set points with merits and 20 spells.

71-75 should be 45, 75-80 should be 50, 81-85 should be 55, 86-90 should be 60, 91-95 should be 65. I would like to try that to see if the trait upgrades is reasonable. I do not see the logic in being stuck on level I or level II traits that can be found in different subs or that clear mind IV takes like 35 spell points. I do not understand why we are a proc leech in vw. I am sure there is more than 20 spells to proc in vw.

is it really borken to ask SE to get rid of the level 75 logic?

how come we can't set dual wield III? how come we can't set magic attack bonus II/III? how come we can't set magic attack bonus II/III? accurcy bonus II/III?

with this day and age i do not think it is broken to ask a level 2 or 3 trait to be setable around the cost of 10-15 points ( and yes i get that we need to stay on dobule attack and tripple attack I for now>< though they could upgrade war and thf a bit and gives us one upgrade for them ><)

[Daniel_Hatcher]

They already said they'd be adding more tiers of the traits such as DWIII, FastCast, Auto-Regen and so on.

[Rambus]

do you mean this post:

Blue mages, your time has come! Here is some feedback from the development in regards to your
Dual Wield/Fast Cast/Store TP/HPmax/MPmax/Auto Regen/Counter/Magic Burst Bonus/Skill Chain Bonus

While it is not possible to enhance all of the above job traits at level 90, with further level cap increase and the addition of new blue magic spells it will be possible to enhance them.

Also, when double attack/gilfinder are enhanced, we are planning to have them change into triple attack/treasure hunter.

or something else?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Yup, that's the post.

[Rambus]

Well I am not to sure if the triple attack is really worth losing the double attack + the extra point cost. It was not adressing everything I said. Even if wiki is out of date and does not listed all the upgrades yet they cost too much points and spells.

60 points and 20 spells is not enough. Some times when I was trying to set points for Vw i would be 53/60 with 20 spells.

there is no reason clear mind Iv should cost 35 or so points (forget but it is around there)

[Darkvalkyr]

We get more of a kick out of Triple Attack than our Gimped Double Attack.

It's just dependant if you want to set the spells for it or not.

If I'm messing around I'd like to see BLU/WAR with TAtk and DA. :D

[Kitkat]

Yeah, from my experience and parse numbers the triple attack trait is actually worth the 12 set points. DoT is not significantly impacted, and the difference in WS numbers is very noticeable (especially with Epona's ring). As far as traits are concerned I believe the reason certain tiers are not currently allowed is due to balance issues considering buff spells we have access to or gear options we have access to. Accuracy is not a big issue other than on Heavy strike causing you to need a different set just to increase hit rate. Mab, we have Fantod, memento mori, and during right moon phase Plenilune.

I believe DWIII is probably not going to happen without the use of gear since it would open a very big DoT can of worms for blu when used in conjunction with other subjobs. Imagine a blu/war with DWIII, 9-10 shadow blink, double+triple attack, able to stack defender+cocoon, or the ability to further increase acc and attack? Seems a little overpowered to me.

[Prothscar]

Triple Attack is more effective for both DoT and weaponskill damage than our gimped Double Attack trait. It's a marginal difference, but a difference nonetheless. Whether you'd be best off setting the extra two spells to get triple attack as opposed to setting another trait or more utility spells is situational.

As for Dual Wield III being overpowered, no. It will be incredibly expensive to set with a requirement of 6 spells, the five that we already have access to being mostly 3+ points and two being utterly useless (Blazing Bound and Mortal Ray). We will more than likely be getting a sixth spell for the 99 cap. Occultation is incredibly inefficient MP-wise, keeping it up consistently isn't really a reliable means of damage mitigation especially given the fact that it is wiped by every AoE that there is.

Berserk and Warcry are the only abilities worth mentioning, and are buffs that CDC greatly benefits from in most every circumstance.

[Kitkat]

Even considering as expensive as 23 set points for DW III, 12 for Triple attack. Some of the spells aren't that bad for base stat gain (worst of which is demoralizing roar) or comprise of spells we use in standard set already. There is a good possibility of getting more good spells blu will use in standard set for the trait also causing others to be phased out, but they may also be utterly useless too. Won't know unless they actually add it, if they do. Considering best possible outcome (yes, hopeful wishing considering SE) there is the possibility that is could be unbalancing to allow up to Tier III DW trait given the versatility of the job.

Negating a blink effect due to AOE is a little naive varied by situation also. Not every thing AOE's, and in most cases the same argument can make utsu just as useless. It wasn't meant in a spam circumstance, primarily a mitigation option, but not necessity just as Utsu is an option. Yes, it is still a blink effect, but it is more reliable then simply evading or parrying.

I can only see the loss of possibly Auto Refresh and battery charge, but typically I have a rdm to fall back on or at least a whm/rdm that refresh regularly (yes I know not everyone does) meaning the loss of this isn't a significant impact. This is assuming as expensive as 23 set points for DW III (all DW spells together is currently 18, and max spell cost seems to be capped at 5points thus 23) and using Triple attack trait set (12 pt for a total of 35 and 10 slots out of 20). Also, I can't recall even one blu that uses all the spells they set, over a select handful, while gaining traits from the rest so calling a spell that gives some stat bonus useless holds little merit since that can already occur in a standard spell set due to setting specific job traits.

Assuming the worst, we would end up with the 6th spell being -stats important to your major DD spells (similar to demoralizing roar) ending up with a total loss of possibly 8-11str or 4-8dex. The biggest negative to subbing war over the conventional /nin (or in some cases /dnc, /rdm) is the loss of more reliable shadows and subtle blow III. Depending on -mdt/-pdt gear sets the shadow part might not be a big deal given our newer spells, though the subtle blow could be. Not hard to swap into the appropriate set and use cocoon/defender to tank the hate off....or just keep tanking depending on situation.

Considering the options it can turn a mediocre sub into the new preferred sub while not necessarily hurting us and instead further improving the DD output blu is already capable of. By the way, you forgot Aggressor if accuracy is really an issue >.> Just saying....

[Prothscar]

The blink effect is inefficient for more reasons than just being completely wiped by AoEs, it's also incredibly expensive. A good BLU won't be using MM, so don't even bring it up. your most reliable ways of keeping alive will be good mitigation sets and a good healer.

I barely even waste time casting Ichi if I'm /NIN, it's an unecessary waste of time in most circumstances. They're useful on a select handful of mobs, but aside from those, you lose more than you gain. Get better mitigation sets and better healers if you disagree.

The loss of 5% subtle blow shouldn't be breaking your bank. Is it a downside? Sure, but it's not horrible. Defender shouldn't be necessary for you to tank, it's much more of a detriment than it is a boon in most cases.

If you need the ACC from Aggressor then idk man.

Not sure why you're against increasing BLU's damage output, it's really not great as it is. Berserk, and, to a lesser extent, Warcry help fix this.

[Kitkat]

Guess "situational" isn't in your vocabulary? Apparently neither is the '/' usage meaning and/or. Already said something about pdt/mdt sets. Aggressor can help on the dismal accuracy rate of heavy strike where using it is applicable to avoid excessive TP feed, or other spells meet high end mitigation lowering output in comparison. Either that or you are just seeking to side-step any chance of mute, also rare but does happen on a few fights. Also I don't know how this had anything to do with Abyssea, especially since in there blu's melee is rather exceptional so the point of MM is moot.

Not sure where you are getting that blu's damage output isn't that great from a melee stand-point. Aside from slashing resistant mobs or VWNM melee isn't an issue as it is, especially with an Almace. Can't compare it to a 2hander, that is rather asinine since it is a completely different class of weapon, same for ranged attackers, not to mention blu has always been split percentages between melee and spell damage placing it apart from other 1handers that have other options of increasing their own damage output via job abilities. Then there is the ability to self skill chain to also make up for lack of melee deficiencies.

I don't have a problem, it is called "what if" reasoning. Stand back, asses, and make rational conclusions based on what if scenarios. Blu is a versatile job that fits niche spots, but relies on combination of spell and melee dmg output. In the recent year this has changed from spell primary to melee primary again, but still relies on spell output to make up the difference other DD classes pull ahead with.

Sorry if stating reasons as to why blu wouldn't get DWIII has somehow offended your ego or pride as a blu, but much like other jobs potentially not getting what they want it is based of a reasoning of over all balance rather than performance of one specific job. Perfect example is Heavy Strike; in the testing phase it was huge change in how well blu could perform, breaking numbers that were not easily attainable prior and incredible benefits. Now look at it, low accuracy, lowered output...not much better than other options. I'm a pessimist, even jobs I love to play will see the same scrutiny as jobs I don't when expecting something more. That is just how I am. If blu is going to get it then so should thf, cause that would be completely rational so thf can do the same thing, right? And yes, that does have merit to the topic since it is a matter of balance, not single job enhancements.

[Prothscar]

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).]


Guess "situational" isn't in your vocabulary? Apparently neither is the '/' usage meaning and/or. Already said something about pdt/mdt sets. Aggressor can help on the dismal accuracy rate of heavy strike where using it is applicable to avoid excessive TP feed, or other spells meet high end mitigation lowering output in comparison. Either that or you are just seeking to side-step any chance of mute, also rare but does happen on a few fights. Also I don't know how this had anything to do with Abyssea, especially since in there blu's melee is rather exceptional so the point of MM is moot.


What [Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).] does mute have to do with Aggressor? Seriously? And BLU's melee is far from exceptional anywhere, it's mediocre at best. Abyssea is currently 50% or more of the game, applying a subjob to it is as relevant as applying it to anything else. Hint: You'd want to be /DNC for voidwatch for extra procs in most cases.



Not sure where you are getting that blu's damage output isn't that great from a melee stand-point. Aside from slashing resistant mobs or VWNM melee isn't an issue as it is, especially with an Almace. Can't compare it to a 2hander, that is rather asinine since it is a completely different class of weapon, same for ranged attackers, not to mention blu has always been split percentages between melee and spell damage placing it apart from other 1handers that have other options of increasing their own damage output via job abilities. Then there is the ability to self skill chain to also make up for lack of melee deficiencies.


BLU can't even compare to NIN but we'll go with your two-hander argument, which is basically saying exactly what I did: BLU's melee is not that great. I would be a pretty bad BLU if I didn't know that spells are a part of damage, but when a MNK does the same amount of damage as a spell just in an attack round that's sort of a moot point. Also BLU is not alone in its ability to self skillchain, plenty of relevant DD jobs can also do it.



I don't have a problem, it is called "what if" reasoning. Stand back, asses, and make rational conclusions based on what if scenarios. Blu is a versatile job that fits niche spots, but relies on combination of spell and melee dmg output. In the recent year this has changed from spell primary to melee primary again, but still relies on spell output to make up the difference other DD classes pull ahead with.


What if BLU were a good DD? It would be fantastic. Anything a BLU can do another job can do better, usually by a considerable margin. The only thing that BLU does best out of any job is hate free damage over extended periods of time (arguable, SMN is probably better for this really). Physical DD and Healing are the two things we come even close to being good at, DD being mediocre and healing being severely stunted by being party-only. No spell that you will cast will ever bring you close to a top end DD.



Sorry if stating reasons as to why blu wouldn't get DWIII has somehow offended your ego or pride as a blu, but much like other jobs potentially not getting what they want it is based of a reasoning of over all balance rather than performance of one specific job. Perfect example is Heavy Strike; in the testing phase it was huge change in how well blu could perform, breaking numbers that were not easily attainable prior and incredible benefits. Now look at it, low accuracy, lowered output...not much better than other options. I'm a pessimist, even jobs I love to play will see the same scrutiny as jobs I don't when expecting something more. That is just how I am. If blu is going to get it then so should thf, cause that would be completely rational so thf can do the same thing, right? And yes, that does have merit to the topic since it is a matter of balance, not single job enhancements.


Your "reasons" for BLU not getting DWIII haven't effected me in the slightest; [Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines (http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1).] Unfortunately a lack of an opposing opinion could lead to the masses thinking that the one side that's accounted for is right since there is no other valid argument. Dual Wield III is almost a certainty at this time. If you don't understand how a natural Dual Wield III for BLU won't break the game, then I don't know. I'm certainly not wasting energy explaining to you the basic mechanics of the game so that you can piece it together yourself.


Side note for heavy strike: If by "incredible benefits" you mean giving us one relevant source of damage on anything above a basic Incredibly Tough monster, then yes, that was quite incredible.

[Kitkat]

Find it interesting how people expect hybrid jobs to be primary jobs. Not a kiddo, but if you want to sink to that to try and make your point have fun. Also, keep in mind this isn't ffxiah nor bg, try to keep the rebuttals clean of foul language. And moving on....

What other forms of damage does mnk have other than raw melee dmg? It doesn't, so complaining that one round (this would include all hit sources such da/ta/kicks/aftermath since no way would 2 hits otherwise put out upwards of 1k+ unless in abyssea which is not the only thing in the game) is equal to spell dmg is peculiar given the build of the job. If anything this is acceptable due to the onesided nature of the job.

How has the various options available to nin aged in comparison to their low delay, high DoT per min. output? Throwing ammo is virtually non-existant or no one makes it and spells require gearing for it to increase and stabilize output from this option. Once again, the comparison falls short due to the build of the job compared to the build of blu.

Thf runs into the similar issues you speak of on blu. However, other than raw dmg via ws and JA, and high dot per min. what else do they have for dmg output? Once again, due to the build of the job seeing a thf's dot surpass a blu melee dot is actually balanced.

2handers get the option of /sam, but once again the 2hander comparison is overly biased due to the different scaling and higher base thus different class of weapon compared to a one-hander. Ranged falls into the same category as they have 2 base dmg combinations that work in tandem with one another to make a single high base dmg which is still double-triple that of a one-handers weapon. These jobs are built for primary physical damage output.

In comparison to this, blu's melee output is higher than true mediocre jobs (dnc, cor, etc) with access to good gear options both TP and WS based and the ability to set passive traits that enhance this. The build of blu is not centered around melee, it only takes it into consideration in a broad overview of the jobs build.

Considering the flexible nature of the job as well as secondary damage output options I'm failing to see how blu is "mediocre" when it is built more to be a hybrid than a primary damage source. Why should a job be unbalanced to enhance a narrowed view of what the job is fully capable of?

[Tashan]

We get more of a kick out of Triple Attack than our Gimped Double Attack.

It's just dependant if you want to set the spells for it or not.

If I'm messing around I'd like to see BLU/WAR with TAtk and DA. :D

BLU/WAR is currently my favourite setup. I absolutely love stacking Berserk and Triumphant Roar. It's easy to gain around 300 ATK with just those two alone and even more with Stalwarts Tonic instead of TR. I also love having a JA for claiming and pulling; being able to keep running and do it rather than stand still is a lot easier.

[Prothscar]

Find it interesting how people expect hybrid jobs to be primary jobs. Not a kiddo, but if you want to sink to that to try and make your point have fun. Also, keep in mind this isn't ffxiah nor bg, try to keep the rebuttals clean of foul language. And moving on....

What other forms of damage does mnk have other than raw melee dmg? It doesn't, so complaining that one round (this would include all hit sources such da/ta/kicks/aftermath since no way would 2 hits otherwise put out upwards of 1k+ unless in abyssea which is not the only thing in the game) is equal to spell dmg is peculiar given the build of the job. If anything this is acceptable due to the onesided nature of the job.

How has the various options available to nin aged in comparison to their low delay, high DoT per min. output? Throwing ammo is virtually non-existant or no one makes it and spells require gearing for it to increase and stabilize output from this option. Once again, the comparison falls short due to the build of the job compared to the build of blu.

Thf runs into the similar issues you speak of on blu. However, other than raw dmg via ws and JA, and high dot per min. what else do they have for dmg output? Once again, due to the build of the job seeing a thf's dot surpass a blu melee dot is actually balanced.

2handers get the option of /sam, but once again the 2hander comparison is overly biased due to the different scaling and higher base thus different class of weapon compared to a one-hander. Ranged falls into the same category as they have 2 base dmg combinations that work in tandem with one another to make a single high base dmg which is still double-triple that of a one-handers weapon. These jobs are built for primary physical damage output.

In comparison to this, blu's melee output is higher than true mediocre jobs (dnc, cor, etc) with access to good gear options both TP and WS based and the ability to set passive traits that enhance this. The build of blu is not centered around melee, it only takes it into consideration in a broad overview of the jobs build.

Considering the flexible nature of the job as well as secondary damage output options I'm failing to see how blu is "mediocre" when it is built more to be a hybrid than a primary damage source. Why should a job be unbalanced to enhance a narrowed view of what the job is fully capable of?

I've already acknowledged that BLU is a hybrid, but it's so much of a hybrid that everything it does is useless compared to other jobs. With the exception of Regurgitation for extended fights and procs, BLU has nothing to offer that other jobs cannot do better. That's the fact of the matter, you can say BLU is a hybrid all you want, but it's only a hybrid at being bad.

Side note, did you just say BLU is a better DD than COR? lol'd

[Kitkat]

If you say so guy, all anyone can do at these forums is complain at how bad a job is because it doesn't do something better than a job it was never meant to in the first place. Enjoy saying the job is far more horrible than it actually is.

[Neisan_Quetz]

You want a DD? Blu isn't first choice.
Healer? Not looking for Blu as first choice.
Buffer? This one's a joke, right?
Tank? Still not looking for Blu as first choice.
Hate free DD? Not looking for Blu as first choice. (although Blu does very well with Regurg)

A job that can (mostly bar buffing/healing on stronger NMs) adequately fill all of these roles as necessary but not better than a specialist? Now you're looking for Blu.

[Prothscar]

You want a DD? Blu isn't first choice.
Healer? Not looking for Blu as first choice.
Buffer? This one's a joke, right?
Tank? Still not looking for Blu as first choice.
Hate free DD? Not looking for Blu as first choice. (although Blu does very well with Regurg)

A job that can (mostly bar buffing/healing on stronger NMs) adequately fill all of these roles as necessary but not better than a specialist? Now you're looking for Blu.


This. It's good at nothing, mediocre at most. Tell yourself what you must, Kitkat, but a BLU will never be as good as another job in any of the roles that it can fill.

[Kitkat]

I never said it did, but you make it sound like it is the worst at everything possible when it isn't. I'm trying to understand your reasoning that blu sucks, but I can't see it based on the build of the job. I especially can't see it when you compare it to a primary role because blu wasn't built that way.

[Tashan]

I agree with Kitkat.

[Prothscar]

I never said it did, but you make it sound like it is the worst at everything possible when it isn't. I'm trying to understand your reasoning that blu sucks, but I can't see it based on the build of the job. I especially can't see it when you compare it to a primary role because blu wasn't built that way.

Not the worst possible, but far from the most optimal. If you can't find someone to fill the slot that can do the job better, then by all means, but on anything that matters that seems highly unlikely.

It would be foolish to say that a BLU can do any of its possible roles better than a job that actually fills those roles.

[Tashan]

The thing I want to add to what Pro is saying is that having an awareness of limitations doesn't mean we're complacent.

There's a reason why so many Blue Mage's have so much skill. It's because the job makes you work for it. Just because we can't be the best for every role, doesn't mean we don't use them. It just means you've gotta be smart with it.

The only job I play, and only job I will ever play is Blue Mage. There's never been a situation where I've felt there's not a place for me. Voidwatch was close. Close. But you just find a way around and mix it up.

[Nightfyre]

The other side of that coin is the people who think Mirage Charuqs are cool to fulltime. I'm really not sure BLUs have a higher average skill/competency level than any other job.

[Kwate]

BLU is a job that is so gear intensive to effectively be as efficient as possible, I try to reserve judgement on most BLU's until I see them in action. Even a pink BLU has surprised me from time to time. Some skilled BLU's are clueless on how to gear properly, which is fine/understandable as not everyone can get on forums or perhaps know any good BLU's. It's the clueless [A] BLU's who have absolutely no understanding about the job then complain in my LS with their 95 BLU on where to learn certain level 40, 50, 60, etc. spells and how big a pain it is to learn spells vs. buying them that I have 0 tolerance for and have been known to call them out, don't fuck up my job with your inept and laziness, find a job you can buy your spells and gtfo.

[Prothscar]

They aren't skillful if they don't know how to gear properly. Sorry.

[Tashan]

The other side of that coin is the people who think Mirage Charuqs are cool to fulltime. I'm really not sure BLUs have a higher average skill/competency level than any other job.

Yeah.. but we've had those types of BLUs for the past 5 years. There's just more of them now.

For Lols:



Jar.caitsith wrote:why do BLU think it's cool too cast in SH?


They don't know better. Educate them.


the hells up with Morrgan's on blu? stuff sucks for 90% of everything..


Full set is fantastic for INT and MND spells, hands are good for CHR spells too. Body is our best Expiacion piece and our best TP piece if we don't need the ACC from Mirage Jubbah.

I might be remembering wrong, but I think it's also our best CA Vertical Cleave piece? I'll have to go back and dig that up again, it's better than AF+1 for a specific spell with CA or SA, I forget.


Why ppl LVL blu and use Cobra mage gear......wtf x.x


See #1


Enkidu's harness sucks. dif you dounbt this then you suck go lvl thf.


If I remember correctly, that's our best WS piece other than Morrigan's Robe. Nice for TP too if you lack a Refresh piece.


WOW you got a Mrike with +10 acc and doal weild THAT SUCKS FOR BLU! relic better hoe toss that !!


Isn't that our best non-Refresh TP option? inb4 Tashan and his Mirke...

[Kwate]

They aren't skillful if they don't know how to gear properly. Sorry.

For the most part I agree, but there are rare exceptions.

[VZX]

skilled BLU's
clueless on how to gear properly
For me, you can only pick 1, sorry.

Or maybe you redefine your definition by what it means by being a skilled BLU.

Anyway, I think we also need more spell slot on top of more set points.
My default spell set is at 58/60 set points with 20/20 slots filled.

[Kwate]

For me, you can only pick 1, sorry.

Or maybe you redefine your definition by what it means by being a skilled BLU.

Anyway, I think we also need more spell slot on top of more set points.
My default spell set is at 58/60 set points with 20/20 slots filled.

....always exceptions. Skill doesn't always represent the best gear. Sorry if that doesn't fit in your little box.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Knowing how to gear yourself is part of skill though.

My standards when it comes to not close friends is fairly low though, if you have a half decent haste set and gearswap you're okay in my book.

[Prothscar]

....always exceptions. Skill doesn't always represent the best gear. Sorry if that doesn't fit in your little box.

Not having the best gear != not knowing how to gear. If I see someone running around in magic accuracy magian swords, a life belt, and 5/5 empyrean armor then I'm sorry, they are not a skilled BLU.

[Kitkat]

Sadly, when it comes to being good at blu you most likely will end up with several gear swaps for various spells/functions. Then it comes down to what you'll most likely be doing on what sets of gear you'll be carrying with you since, lets face it, you'll never be able to carry all sets with you (hence why you can get into sack/satchel from anywhere).

For blu it isn't necessarily a little box mentality unless you either don't have access to get the gear you are lacking, or you lack the desire to obtain it. Might even be a combination of the two, but trying to sell yourself short cause you don't want to work for the gear or swap properly doesn't make you "skilled" just makes you lazy and a hindrance over someone who is willing to. Don't kid yourself, all jobs work in this manner. Some just require more gear sets than others.

PS: Before you complain about how hard it is to get the gear you lack ask yourself this 'Do I have friends ingame?' If you can answer yes to this then you can get the gear. Some of the "harder" gear to get I've gotten with as few as 2 others, but it took time and a few tries on some of the items before getting them.

[Prothscar]

Sadly, when it comes to being good at blu you most likely will end up with several gear swaps for various spells/functions. Then it comes down to what you'll most likely be doing on what sets of gear you'll be carrying with you since, lets face it, you'll never be able to carry all sets with you (hence why you can get into sack/satchel from anywhere).

For blu it isn't necessarily a little box mentality unless you either don't have access to get the gear you are lacking, or you lack the desire to obtain it. Might even be a combination of the two, but trying to sell yourself short cause you don't want to work for the gear or swap properly doesn't make you "skilled" just makes you lazy and a hindrance over someone who is willing to. Don't kid yourself, all jobs work in this manner. Some just require more gear sets than others.

PS: Before you complain about how hard it is to get the gear you lack ask yourself this 'Do I have friends ingame?' If you can answer yes to this then you can get the gear. Some of the "harder" gear to get I've gotten with as few as 2 others, but it took time and a few tries on some of the items before getting them.

The hardest piece of gear that BLU has to get is an Epona's Ring, and even that is duoable with laughable difficulty. Almace can be done in 4-5 days or less. There's no excuse besides laziness and non-willingness to gear their job appropriately or lack of understanding as to how. This = lack of skill by definition.

[Kitkat]

So, how is what you just said any different from what I just said? I fail to see the reason why you are quoting me then reiterating what was said again. Honestly, I thought the use of quotation marks around the word showed the unbelievability of the meaning and then I explained why.

Just to humor you I'll further clarify:
Time and a few tries = not all drops are 100% (Epona's, Loki's, Tiara) even with blue proc, thus require you to re-fight to regain pop sets or wait for respawn and fight again. "Harder" = lack of believability as it is used often as an excuse for not having better gear due to laziness. "skilled" = quoted to show that the use of the term is inaccurate when attached to someone who does well in the gear they have, but doesn't have the better gear to back up the "skill" X person is saying they have.

Does that clarify it better for you? Didn't think I had to write it all out to avoid being misunderstood and "corrected*" ~shrugs~

*Being corrected when not needed because of misconstrued understanding by another individual who either did not understand the varied uses of words in quotation, or could not take the time to fully read what was written in the first place.

[Tashan]

The hardest piece of gear that BLU has to get is an Epona's Ring, and even that is duoable with laughable difficulty. Almace can be done in 4-5 days or less. There's no excuse besides laziness and non-willingness to gear their job appropriately or lack of understanding as to how. This = lack of skill by definition.

Think it's actually relative to circumstance. I myself have both Almace and Epona's Ring and yet still haven't completed +2 Bazubands.

However, I think you're both going the wrong direction with your definition's of skill in that you're basing it upon a person's effort rather than knowledge.

[Kitkat]

No, not entirely since effort and knowledge go hand in hand. I've never heard of a person just having the knowledge without putting forth an effort via practice, studying up on the job, or looking up how to get gear or what gear should be used for X situation. The lack knowledge is lack of effort to obtain it, and those who have knowledge but lack the tools to apply it are no better off especially if they lack the effort to gain the tools they are missing yet know they should.

[Tashan]

I can dissect the two fairly easily through example and demonstration keeping the following in mind:


I've never heard of a person just having the knowledge without putting forth an effort via practice, studying up on the job, or looking up how to get gear or what gear should be used for X situation.

Effort Without Knowledge


1. The Hand Me-Down Fever - As it is now more easier to have several jobs levelled, more people are recycling equipment between different jobs.


The hardest piece of gear that BLU has to get is an Epona's Ring, and even that is duoable with laughable difficulty. Almace can be done in 4-5 days or less. There's no excuse besides laziness and non-willingness to gear their job appropriately or lack of understanding as to how. This = lack of skill by definition.

Using the above two items as an example, by the idea of the positive skill correlation between knowledge and effort if you've collected an Almace and Epona's Ring on Blue Mage you have skill for that job. This means it would also have to apply to every job you've yet to play also such as PLD, RDM (melee), MNK, THF, DNC, BST, NIN and so on.

I disagree, and rebute the idea that if one has made the effort on one job that skill is transferrable to every job they play.

2. The Gifted Sensation - As well as having equipment which is transferrable between jobs, it's also very easy to collect equipment for other jobs whilst putting the effort for one. I have AF3+2 materials, equipment and weapons for many other jobs, none of which I use on BLU.

Because of this I once thought I'd give playing MNK a try and had it Cleave Burned to 90, skilled it up to max and started with a 1/3 of my TP build already up to scratch.

I went out to solo in Garliage Citadel and not having a natural cure or stun option led to me getting 1 shotted by an AM2 spell from a ghost. I sucked at it.

My efforts to collect decent equipment for a job I never played contributed very little to the skill I needed to actually play it.

3. Effort Without Knowledge -There are many people who play this game without participating in forum discussion, or all in all even look at the Wiki. I have a friend in game who plays on an Xbox 360, doesn't have a computer and doesn't research any information outside of the game.

His favourite two jobs are BST and WAR and even though he had collected some fantastic gear through our LS, he had no idea how to create different equipment sets, never used macros and just full-timed certain pieces.

How did he collect all those great items without having the know-how? Friends. Other people would tell him whether a mob dropped something for one of his jobs and he'd collect them.

Knowledge without Effort

As much as I feel the above reasons are true they can also be objectively argued against relevantly.

4. Transferrable Skills - If you know how to make a Haste TP build on one job, odds are you're going to be just fine making another on a different job. You don't neccesarily need to have made the effort of collecting the items to have that as a skill.

5. Knowledge without Effort - There are many people in game who put in the effort to collect good gear without the knowledge of how to use it.

As an example, one thing I used to do for many people back in the LV75 era was help Samurai's make 4-6 hit TP builds. There were a lot of people that didn't appreciate that you could change just one piece in a X Hit build and completely mess up your whole approach by carrying redundant +STP.

I myself knew how to make those build's easily, yet never put in any of the effort to collect and use it.

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I think that's enough for a rebuttal against the idea that (Effort:Knowledge) = Skill.

[Kitkat]

Your dissection was actually broke down by what you posted. You basically proved by what you wrote that Knowledge of how a job functions and putting forth the effort to gear it appropriately then using it in practice associates to skill.


My efforts to collect decent equipment for a job I never played contributed very little to the skill I needed to actually play it.

Your "hand me downs" were still collected by you, whether by choice or consequence, but even with these lack of knowledge on how to plan ahead for pitfalls of the job was your down fall. Thus gear alone does not equal skill.


There are many people in game who put in the effort to collect good gear without the knowledge of how to use it.

This is an utter lack of skill by definition since the gear is still useless if you lack the knowledge to apply it in the correct method. Additionally, stating that "transferable skill" equates to skill is inaccurate as not all jobs play the same, especially true when comparing a conventional melee with blu. Knowing how to build a ws set and tp set are not nearly enough to know how to play the job. You would not play blu like you would a thf, you can't play blu like you would a nin, mnk, war, rng, or similar physical DD since melee alone would be insufficient or the passive/job abilities function completely different.

The only comparable job to blu would be rdm as both rely on various sources of damage, has the ability to cure, debuff, and rely on various different sets to gain the utmost effect from the differing gameplay aspects. Unlike other jobs you are far more likely to swap many pieces of gear at once, and a number of times, on these two jobs than you are on conventional melee. This is not transferable skill either, as the spells cast on blu must be set and the blu must learn which are better to set due to limited points and spell slots. Once again, this is typically done in practice or by learning from another source, thus does not translate to lack of effort or knowledge, but instead in an effort to attain knowledge. Hence the hand-in-hand reasoning to equate skill.

Just because a person knows how to play a job, but lacks the gear to play it to its fullest does not make them skilled. Alternatively, just because a person has all the best gear but the lack of how to utilize it also does not make them skilled. The ability to put forth the effort behind why the gear is important, and the knowledge on how to use it in conjunction with the way the job is played equates to skill. If a person knows how to play the job and why certain gear is important but will not put forth an effort to get the gear, they are not skilled due to their own unwillingness to better themselves. This will become exceedingly more apparent when these so called "skilled" but ill equipped users are fighting on the same mob with a fully geared and knowledgeable player due to noticeable gaps in damage from all sources.

Thus skill equates to: Effort to obtain necessary components + knowledge on how to use necessary components to reach peak performance.

You can't have one without the other and still be skilled at what you are doing. This is a concept that encompasses all jobs due to the varied styles of each job. Thus knowing generic information also does not equal skill since it is all encompassing, but is not exact job to job due to the use of different pieces of gear, and building around the different style of play of the jobs.

[Tashan]

I feel like you've not completely understood what's being said again, as the majority of that post was an attempt to either highlight contradictions or just repeat what I already stated, in your own words.

Just to clarify, nothing of which I stated was an explanation of player skill. It was to rebute the following.


I've never heard of a person just having the knowledge without putting forth an effort via practice, studying up on the job, or looking up how to get gear or what gear should be used for X situation.

Or in my own words, putting in the effort to collect gear does not make neccesarily correlate positively with skill.

Now I will just point out bluntly that it wasn't you who made the statement that making the lack of effort of collecting equipment = lack of skill, but as you were agreeing with the same person's statements I just took it as is.

But for the sake of it I will choose a few things to respond to:


Your "hand me downs" were still collected by you, whether by choice or consequence, but even with these lack of knowledge on how to plan ahead for pitfalls of the job was your down fall. Thus gear alone does not equal skill.

That's what I said. I can't see a contradiction here.


Additionally, stating that "transferable skill" equates to skill is inaccurate as not all jobs play the same

Knowing how to build a ws set and tp set are not nearly enough to know how to play the job.

Exactly. :D.

The transferrable skill is not in actually playing the job, but in making a Haste TP build. Thus whilst having that knowledge is a skill, it doesn't neccesarily mean you are skilled at the job.


The only comparable job to blu would be rdm as both rely on various sources of damage

as the spells cast on blu must be set and the blu must learn which are better to set due to limited points and spell slots.

Once again, this is typically done in practice or by learning from another source, thus does not translate to lack of effort or knowledge, but instead in an effort to attain knowledge

You seem to be taking your opinion on "effort" from collecting equipment to something completely different. Allow me to just remind you that we've been talking about a BLU's ability to gear themselves in relation to their skill.


Just because a person knows how to play a job, but lacks the gear to play it to its fullest does not make them skilled. Alternatively, just because a person has all the best gear but the lack of how to utilize it also does not make them skilled.

Yes

Your dissection was actually broke down by what you posted. You basically proved by what you wrote that Knowledge of how a job functions and putting forth the effort to gear it appropriately then using it in practice associates to skill.

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However, I think you're both going the wrong direction with your definition's of skill in that you're basing it upon a person's effort rather than knowledge.

Other than all of that, I don't think there's anything neccesary to point out as you're pretty much on same wavelength at a different angle.

[Kitkat]

The comparison was only to show how the transference of skill is inaccurate. First effort is placed in the acquisition of expanding current knowledge, then knowledge is used in practice, and through application of knowledge (AKA: effort) obtain additional missing gear. In this sense it is more a transference of knowledge than it is of skill since prior obtained gear does not always carry over to different jobs and require effort be put forth to once more gain missing gear to build a set for that job.

This quote:

I've never heard of a person just having the knowledge without putting forth an effort via practice, studying up on the job, or looking up how to get gear or what gear should be used for X situation

Does not mean:

Or in my own words, putting in the effort to collect gear does not make neccesarily correlate positively with skill.

It is being misinterpreted by you I believe. It only states what knowledge is; something obtained via self educating, through practice and application, or familiarizing information to a given situation. I believe you emphasized the use of the word "gear" in what was said when that was not the focal point, knowledge and the inevitable effort on behalf of the person to obtain it was the focal point. Hence the "hand-in-hand" approach to reach the conclusion of what "skill" is. It is a conjunction of the two, but alone the person becomes either knowledgeable or determined.

Either way, I think we've gone well off track from the original purpose of this topic and should return or accept that the same ideal is present on the definition. If not, then a separate topic should be made to further debate about it.

[Mirabelle]

As someone that is not a BLU main (COR, RNG), I have accepted that my BLU will be chronically under-geared. To play BLU with utmost efficiency requires a ton of gear swaps and I just don't have the storage space.
What I struggle with is the opinion that if you aren't doing things with the best gear and utmost efficiency in gear swaps, you are unskilled. Whenever I go out on BLU with my so-so gear, I have no problem accomplishing what I've set out to do. So why exactly do I need all this elite gear again?
I solo'd 99% of my BLU spells. I can grab hate from WAR and NIN in my LS when DD'ing. I can proc BLU spells when needed. I'm on the ball for stuns (which is really where I've made the most difference on BLU if you ask me). Admittedly I haven't built a charged whisker set yet but again my priorities right now are my COR, RNG empy's with my small empy group.
My definition of a skilled player is one that can do his job properly so that he or his group can accomplish the task. Being elite means you can step above that level. But like in real life, there are scales of skill levels and it isn't a matter of "you are elite or you suck".
And lol at talk of laziness. Being lazy is playing FFXI. If you weren't lazy you'd be out in RL earning a real living.

[Prothscar]

The question isn't whether or not you have the gear, the question is whether you know what you're missing, how to get it, how to apply it and whether you will do so. Yes. it's laziness if they haven't done the simple research on how to play their job effectively. You are not one of those people, so I suggest chilling out.

[Tashan]

Yeah, as Pro has stated it's not a matter of whether you have all the equipment but whether you're aware of the potential to better yourself and can effectively evaluate your current efforts.

Blue Mage is my only job and even I struggle to accommodate equipment space for everything. For example I'm well aware of the effectiveness of a HP+ build for White Wind. But there is no way I can afford to give up the inventory space to do so, so I use my cure potency build shared by other spells such as Magic Fruit.

There is no way I could expect someone who only plays it occasionally to have the same luxuries as I do, nor would I use it to discredit someone on the basis of skill.

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I resent the idea that playing FFXI is being lazy though. I manage a business, work a separate job to fund my business and extend my experience towards another career option, study parttime and still enjoy playing FFXI and joining in discussions.