Some ideas for changes for Summoner

[Brightshadow]

Hello guys this is my second attempt at this thread I decided to remake it after a bit more thinking here are some new ideas.


Adjustments to Perpetuation Cost
I think that Perpetuation cost is ok at higher levels, but at lower levels and Mid levels it prevents summoners from keeping there pets out due to limited amount of gear to pick from and a low MP pool. So here are some adjustments to Perpetuation Cost.

1.)Change the 3 Second Tick, to a 10 Second Tick.
-Instead of lowing Perpetuation cost for the avatars I had a new idea, why not simply make the Perpetuation drain take place every 10 Seconds similar to how the Resting tick works. I think this is the easiest solution and it wouldn't require any adjustments to our gear.
__________________________________________________________________________________

Adjustments to The Avatars & Elemental Spirits
I think all the avatars are very similar the only difference they have is basically there bloodpacts, and there avatar favor, so I think that they should be given some uniqueness to influence summoners to use different avatars depending on the situation.

1.)Changes to Avatar Favor
I feel that Summoner doesn't fit with Stances, and its unnecessary to make our avatars weaker so here are some adjustments to Avatar Favor.
-Make Avatar Favor into a Trait (No Penalty)
-Allow the Avatar Favor to affect the Avatar. (This would increase avatar uniqueness)

2.)Adjustments to Bloodpacts
-I think that Summoner should have a additional perk as a buffer, since unlike BRD and COR they need to pay MP for there buffs, and many of them are not all that. I think they should buff all party members, and alliance members in the party similar to how they can buff the npcs in campaign.

3.)Adjustments to Elementals
I think that Elementals have been untouched for a long time and some life should be brought back to them since they are one of our tools. Here are some adjustments to them.
-Increase Amount of spells they learn for example give Earth Spirit Stoneskin, Air Spirit Haste, oh and the Tier V nukes.
-some new commands should be added to influence there behavior.
*Offensive-The elemental focuses on high damaging spells.
*Defensive-The elemental focuses on protecting the party.
*Passive-The elemental focuses on healing and buffing the party.
__________________________________________________________________________________

Adjustments to The Summoner
Here are some adjustments to the Summoner.

1.)Astral Flow
-Instead of Astral Flow taking all your MP I think it should only absorb the amount of MP that is needed for the move.
-I think the Range of the Bloodpacts should be increased.

2.)Elemental Siphon
-Increase the amount of MP drained by the Elemental TP. at max TP 300% it should drain double of what it currently drains.

[Soranika]

You're suggesting a complete upheaval of SMN as it is known and played today. It takes a lot of diligent work, e.i. time, to gather equipment that addresses the perp cost down to a manageable level, if not completely erases it while in the process of increasing Avatar potential.

As for Odin and Alexander, there's some kind of story behind keeping them out... end of the world... something or another. Stop caring about that months they were released. It's a pipe dream to want them as regular summons though.

The only thing I see of interest is blood pacts behaving like the DNC job abilities, which is something I never considered. However for the most part, it's in the manifesto for SMN to possibly get a job ability to mitigate the recast timers on blood pacts.

[noodles355]

Smn forum is over there ->

[Malamasala]

Well the job always needed a complete do-over. I'm kind of thrilled to have had the opportunity to play the worst class ever conceived in history of video gaming. It is so you can tell your grand kids that when you had to play MMOs, you had to actually have a negative MP regeneration rate between battles, and you had to spend MP to do what all other jobs did for free. Not to mention you grew weaker each time you leveled until you had catched up on skill that raised with 0.1 per day.

It is sad to say, but it is only story and cutscenes that SE can do right.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

If you removed the perp, half of the point to the trails stalves would be negated.

[Siiri]

Everyone where you look there are summoners. Soloing NMs in abyssea, creating a wall of Garudas on skeletons in WOE flux 11. (LOL, never played SMN but pretty sure Garuda isn't best choice on skeletons.) The job doesn't need a thing.

[Soranika]

Everyone where you look there are summoners. Soloing NMs in abyssea, creating a wall of Garudas on skeletons in WOE flux 11. (LOL, never played SMN but pretty sure Garuda isn't best choice on skeletons.) The job doesn't need a thing.
You're right but they don't known any better. Could you imagine a dozen or so Titans out there though? Lag would be the last thing others will complain about.

[Kaisha]

If SE is so insistent on maintaining the current SMN design (which imo is horrific), all I could ask for is a quick-fire means of calling a BP out directly from a JA list similar to COR rolls so I can just skip the Summon -> Assault -> BP -> Release cycle, and instead have the avatar appear and be ready to use the ability.

Lord knows it'd make that new Stunga move a heck lot more viable.

[noodles355]

Ifrit or Titan in Flux 11. Stop using Garuda on Skeletons. Garuda is not your only avatar.

[Dallas]

Summary of idea: Make SMN less expensive for the worst geared SMN and more expensive for the best geared SMN.

I like it.

[Malamasala]

Ifrit or Titan in Flux 11. Stop using Garuda on Skeletons. Garuda is not your only avatar.

The irony is that carbuncle is bad on them, even though you expect undead to be weak to light damage. I think the highest I've seen is about 500 damage, and that is still a JA higher than level 75.

[Alhanelem]

One thing I have noticed even with Carbuncle Mitts is that Summoner is the only pet job that has such a bad hindrance to deal with, and that is Perpetuation cost.1) "Even with carbuncle mitts?" I don't even carry carby mitts anymore. You don't need them AT ALL for free carbuncle. As it is, it's easy to negate the entire perp cost of any avatar.

2) "Summoner is the only pet job that has such a bad hindrance to deal with, and that is Perpetuation cost." Overload and Burden are as bad if not a worse hinderance than perp cost, which is really very trivial. Summoner's real problem is blood pact timers.

If you think perp cost is a serious issue for summoner, than you probably need to upgrade your gear.


The irony is that carbuncle is bad on them, even though you expect undead to be weak to light damage. I think the highest I've seen is about 500 damage, and that is still a JA higher than level 75. It seems to be a rule of this game that light element cannot be powerful. Holy mist is only BARELY better than meteorite.

[noodles355]

It seems to be a rule of this game that light element cannot be powerful.I'd agree with that. Even with Beyond/Other MaB atmas, my mule's Banish and Holies are pretty weak without solace/misery boost.

[Soranika]

Pretty much why I stick to meteorite and soothing ruby now. Although soothing ruby range bothers me.

Any way, I notice that SMN does not do well in the hands of people who think it's a pick up and go job.

[Malamasala]

If you think perp cost is a serious issue for summoner, than you probably need to upgrade your gear.

I still think it is a shame that SMN is the only job you have to gear to avoid penalties. I don't wear perpetuation gear to be better, I do it to not be worse than all other jobs.

[Alhanelem]

I still think it is a shame that SMN is the only job you have to gear to avoid penalties. I don't wear perpetuation gear to be better, I do it to not be worse than all other jobs.
It's not. PUP needs gear to avoid overload and even then it's not a guarantee. Yes, we have cooldown now, but it's a band-aid for an artificially induced problem that doesn't need to exist.
COR needs to use special abilities just to have the chance to have their buffs be fully effective and avoid Busting.

[Soranika]

Perp cost, I feel, is nessecary. Some of you may forget that FFXI is an mmo that have a MAJOR emphasis on teaming up with others and supporting others. This is why several jobs have abilitiest to cover others short comings. Yes, gear is out there to be more self-sufficient and if that's what you want, make it a point to get it.

Like some said at ffxiah, smn got away like a bandit with our AF3 +1/2. Get it and use it. Perp cost is not an issue, even for novice smn if they put some effort into getting that, as well as other refresh gear. And... You know, an evorker's ring. I swear that there's an increasing number of smn without one.

[Alhanelem]

While it's pretty easy to negate, I'd have to agree that it's necessary. It has the greatest effect in the lowest levels, where pets are very powerful relative to other jobs. If perpetuation cost didn't exist, they'd probably have weakened the avatars in some way more than they already are.

Soranika said it best; our Empyrean armor is amazing. Other than the hands which are OK but mostly a macro piece, every piece is worth wearing for a majority of the time. Grab a moonshade earring with refresh and a wivre hairpin with refresh for when you're idle. Other mages can only dream to recover MP as easily as SMN can.

[Neisan_Quetz]

*Emp+2 head, nitpick.

[Olor]

Ifrit or Titan in Flux 11. Stop using Garuda on Skeletons. Garuda is not your only avatar.

Okay I was wondering if there was some super secret "summoner only" reason for using "claws" on skeles...

[Soranika]

Okay I was wondering if there was some super secret "summoner only" reason for using "claws" on skeles...
Misconceptions by players who have not invested anytime into playing smn. Pred. Claws is known to be one of the strongest physical BPs. Heavenly Strike is known to be one of the strongest BPs (only cause people are under the assumption that Shiva has more INT than other avatars.) However you can exploit skeleton types mobs weakness to blunt and fire element attacks to produce some decent numbers. That should be DD basic 101 to anyone though.

[Olor]

yeah, I expected to see a lot of titans... but I saw only 1, and a whole flock of garudas pounding scratching skeles

[Hayward]

I'm of the opinion that S-E has been way too cautious with SMN's potential in FFXI. Historically, Summoners have been the most powerful jobs in the FF series. People know the Avatars/Eidolons/GFs/Espers by name and face. If perpetuation costs are indeed necessary, it should be expected that the avatars have the same damage potential as any melee job and the same magical capabilities of any mage (this goes especially for elemental spirits). This whole fear of being overpowered has rung hollow for years given that S-E threw game balance out the window with various melee jobs (see: Warrior, Samurai, Monk, among others).

I'd want perpetuation costs for spirits cut to celestial avatar levels and the new spells, excluding AoE-based elemental spells, from 76 to the current cap included (yes, even Comet). I'd also want the casting times for avatars to be cut in half. There's no good reason for this anymore and needlessly hampers our ability to react to situational changes. For the perpetuation we currently expend, I'd also want avatars' Delay addressed with a Martial Arts-type job trait and their overall attack/accuracy/MAtk/MAcc improved to scale more in line with any other job as we level.

[Alhanelem]

Okay I was wondering if there was some super secret "summoner only" reason for using "claws" on skeles...
Yeah, that reason is "I like doing reudced damage"

[Razushu]

I'm of the opinion that S-E has been way too cautious with SMN's potential in FFXI. Historically, Summoners have been the most powerful jobs in the FF series. People know the Avatars/Eidolons/GFs/Espers by name and face. If perpetuation costs are indeed necessary, it should be expected that the avatars have the same damage potential as any melee job and the same magical capabilities of any mage (this goes especially for elemental spirits). This whole fear of being overpowered has rung hollow for years given that S-E threw game balance out the window with various melee jobs (see: Warrior, Samurai, Monk, among others).

I'd want perpetuation costs for spirits cut to celestial avatar levels and the new spells, excluding AoE-based elemental spells, from 76 to the current cap included (yes, even Comet). I'd also want the casting times for avatars to be cut in half. There's no good reason for this anymore and needlessly hampers our ability to react to situational changes. For the perpetuation we currently expend, I'd also want avatars' Delay addressed with a Martial Arts-type job trait and their overall attack/accuracy/MAtk/MAcc improved to scale more in line with any other job as we level.

There's nothing wrong with our damage capabilities, both magical and physical that can't be fixed by an adjustment to Blood Pact delay. Our Rages do fine damage, the gap between them is what lets us down. Our Avatars differ from melees in that they are Spike DDs rather than DPS, not forgetting it's hate free damage. The same goes for our standing as magical DD, our Avatar's nukes are both hate and TP free, it does seem balanced that we are weaker than offensive mages, seeing as it's unlikely they could happily pump out damage like we can in the same carefree manner.:)

You can cut Elemental spirit perpetuation cost to Avatar levels already, the reason it's higher as standard is because their nukes cost us nothing but time. We pay the MP cost for them as extra perp, and it's barely anything at that nowadays. It's highly likely that if SE ever adjusted spirits to be useful past level 20 outside of siphon, they would have to overhaul the balance between them and Avatars. As the job is now spirits are low level pets with limited high level use, but on the flip side factoring cost of use(both their attacks and their perp), they are almost completely free, whereas Avatars exact a much higher toll for their attacks. if they were to make Spirits viable nukers, they would create an imbalance in how the job was designed, and as such we would likely see something to the effect of adding new spells but leaving the damage terrible, or making it so that the Spirit drains our MP to cast it's nukes.

While stuff like a "Martial Arts", and adjustment to would be nice(and I wouldn't complain if we got them:D), I think if they ever get round to adjusting BP delay like they promised that will be the single biggest thing to happen to SMN in years.

[Razushu]

Yeah, that reason is "I like doing reudced damage"

Although there is the fact that Garuda's floating green booty is much easier on the eyes than Titan's manthong.

/shudder

[Malamasala]

I still don't get people who say SMN empyrean armor is awesome. They are just like gigantic band aids to cover all issues with the job. In the end what they are without regard to perpetuation and skill over cap bonus...

2 MP per tick refresh
10% bonus to BPs
Enhanced magic accuracy

Imagine if the WAR set had:

2 HP per tick regen
10% bonus to WSes (does not work with relic/mythic/empyrean wses or fellcleave)
Enhances accuracy of elemental WSes

Would you still say it is the best armor set WAR ever got?

The SMN empy is lacking obvious things like pet haste, pet DA and all other stats the WARs actually got. All we got were band aids to make our job average.

Is it the best armor we've ever gotten? Sure, but it is still worse than the armors WAR had from old 75 level content. We are just doomed to get stuff that nobody else than a SMN would think is good.

[Razushu]

I still don't get people who say SMN empyrean armor is awesome. They are just like gigantic band aids to cover all issues with the job. In the end what they are without regard to perpetuation and skill over cap bonus...

2 MP per tick refresh
10% bonus to BPs
Enhanced magic accuracy

Imagine if the WAR set had:

2 HP per tick regen
10% bonus to WSes (does not work with relic/mythic/empyrean wses or fellcleave)
Enhances accuracy of elemental WSes

Would you still say it is the best armor set WAR ever got?

The SMN empy is lacking obvious things like pet haste, pet DA and all other stats the WARs actually got. All we got were band aids to make our job average.

Is it the best armor we've ever gotten? Sure, but it is still worse than the armors WAR had from old 75 level content. We are just doomed to get stuff that nobody else than a SMN would think is good.

Thats a fine comparision except not only are you are you ignoring some of the other stuff on Caller's set like Avatar :TP Bonus, enhances mana cede, and the +2 set bonus. Complaining that summoning magic skill, and - perpetuation are main stats on the set is like the WAR's complaining that they have haste and accuracy on theirs, as they should be hitting that well and fast already.

In case you haven't noticed everything in this game has a downside, we have perpetuation cost(easily negated now), and WARs have the possiblity of being floored by a mob. Every mage job wears gear with skill on the only difference between us and them is how that is applied as a bonus, they get Macc and -spell interupt, we get a wider array of bonuses from this extra skill.

In case you haven't noticed in all your years of playing Summoner, our Avatars are treated as spike DDs, not WARs, they don't really need WAR stats, the only thing holding us back is BP delay(which is due a fix), other than that maybe a new tier of rages would be nice.

[Alhanelem]

I still don't get people who say SMN empyrean armor is awesome.
Regen to refresh comparison is invalid because Regen is not a necessary element to power WAR abilities, you skewed the other comparisons as well.

Your ideas do not work. Making Carbuncle cost 50 MP instead of 5 is not a tradeoff for no perp cost. Yes, perp may feel like an artificial limitation, but it's a minor one and it was needed early on to make it be not too easy for SMN to solo compared to other jobs. Similarly, everyone would just spam 3 fire maneuvers on PUP (3 ice on mage frame) all the time and not try other maneuver strategies if they were given the chance and knew it would work.

These limitations are there for balance reasons and that is why we have to do some work to offset them. The SMN empy is so good because it makes it easier to offset those balance effects and gives you refresh which every mage needs and wants (unlike regen which no one cares about on armor) and other beneficial effects. Yes, it doesn't have BP delay minus, but there is plenty of gear you can swap in for the 0.5 seconds each minute you need to be wearing that gear.

[Enkrateia]

This is an excellent discussion of some new ideas. Since it revolves solely around the SMN job, I will move the thread over to the SMN forum.

[Soranika]

I'm starting to see what people mean with the constant flow of negativity...
Razushu pretty much hid it. The emyprean armor out preforms a lot of expectations outside of the -7 perp cost, refresh +2 and additional -perp cost on day/weather conditions with +2. Instant 200% TP with mana cede with +2 hands plus TP bonus with pants means maxing out damage or healing properties of blood pacts. Of course I use maxing loosely when you consider blood boon augment.

The only real short coming of the summoner emyprean armor is blood pact delay. It's poorly addressed in with the very few additions to accessories unless you gear swamp YY robe and other equipment. Again though, stated by others.

[Brightshadow]

As for Odin and Alexander, there's some kind of story behind keeping them out... end of the world... something or another. Stop caring about that months they were released. It's a pipe dream to want them as regular summons though.


-To me that excuse is something like what they did with Bahamut, the truth is the lore can always be added on, and I see much potential for these two as regular avatars why should we at high levels be receiving more cute avatars like Caitsith instead of something bad@ss like Odin and Alexander heck or even bahamut.


If you removed the perp, half of the point to the trails stalves would be negated.

-Of course if you remove perp the bonus would be replaced with something new.


Summary of idea: Make SMN less expensive for the worst geared SMN and more expensive for the best geared SMN.

I like it.

-not really, with the best geared SMN they would have gear that improves MP, refresh etc.


"Summoner is the only pet job that has such a bad hindrance to deal with, and that is Perpetuation cost." Overload and Burden are as bad if not a worse hinderance than perp cost, which is really very trivial. Summoner's real problem is blood pact timers.


-But unlike Puppetmasters if the puppet is overloaded they still stay in the field and provide assistance, and Puppetmaster can melee. While Summoner is solely supported by there avatars.


I still think it is a shame that SMN is the only job you have to gear to avoid penalties. I don't wear perpetuation gear to be better, I do it to not be worse than all other jobs.

-100% agree, other jobs can equip other type of gear and they are fine, but if we decide to equip MP gear then our perp cost will hinder us.


While it's pretty easy to negate, I'd have to agree that it's necessary. It has the greatest effect in the lowest levels, where pets are very powerful relative to other jobs. If perpetuation cost didn't exist, they'd probably have weakened the avatars in some way more than they already are.


-Compared to a melee at low levels they are useless, only thing good about them is there bloodpacts and we pay MP for those. I think its wrong for a job that can't do anything for themselves and beg there pets to do there bidding can't have strong pets.

[Soranika]

You're a bit incorrect in your last statement. At low levels, most of your blood pacts have skill chain properties. If you ever bothered to solo, before 70, self skill chaining was where it was at. I mean if you bothered to go the melee route to solo leveling than going off kiting on bombs.

[Alhanelem]

-But unlike Puppetmasters if the puppet is overloaded they still stay in the field and provide assistance, and Puppetmaster can melee. While Summoner is solely supported by there avatars.Overload is worse for the PUP than perp cost is for the SMN. Perp cost is trivial, overload is not. There are many times when PUP is only using the automaton, and meleeing is too dangerous, thus negating your alleged benefits.


-100% agree, other jobs can equip other type of gear and they are fine, but if we decide to equip MP gear then our perp cost will hinder us.100% disagree, because we alerady established that SMN isn't the only job with artificial limitations.

Also, almost all perp - gear has MP on it. Your reasoning makes no sense, you don't have to give up max MP to get perp cost. You don't have to give up offensive benefits for perp cost either, since you only need to have that stuff on when using a blood pact.

In short, SMN doesn'tneed to sacrifice much to deal with perp cost. It's a minor hinderance that is mostly applicable to low levels.

[Dallas]

-not really, with the best geared SMN they would have gear that improves MP, refresh etc.

The best geared SMN get back 1500MP with a single WS. There's nothing to spend it on but perp.

[Razushu]

Overload is worse for the PUP than perp cost is for the SMN. Perp cost is trivial, overload is not. There are many times when PUP is only using the automaton, and meleeing is too dangerous, thus negating your alleged benefits.

100% disagree, because we alerady established that SMN isn't the only job with artificial limitations.

Also, almost all perp - gear has MP on it. Your reasoning makes no sense, you don't have to give up max MP to get perp cost. You don't have to give up offensive benefits for perp cost either, since you only need to have that stuff on when using a blood pact.

In short, SMN doesn'tneed to sacrifice much to deal with perp cost. It's a minor hinderance that is mostly applicable to low levels.


Even if we had to give up max MP for perp cost it wouldn't matter, any decent geared SMN will have the means to restore enough MP to fight continously, even without having to worry about getting TotM staves or Hvergelmir.

[Evilvivi]

The best geared SMN get back 1500MP with a single WS. There's nothing to spend it on but perp.

Incorrect sir.

The best geared SMN would have a fully upgraded Nirvana, not an emp staff.

[Neisan_Quetz]

EDIT: Still superfluous in that situation.

[Soranika]

Only in Abyssea...

[Neisan_Quetz]

Get mp back > Impact in between Blood pacts obviously. Why didn't you all see it before?!

[Ethalio]

I think Garuda is so dominantly used among other avatars because of the increased Evasion and Karura Hachigane (Garuda -2perp./ATT+/DEF+).

I had the idea about splitting the bloodpact timers:

Blood Pact: Rage (recast 60 seconds) avatar uses a strong offensive bloodpact
Blood Pact: Anger (recast 30 seconds) avatar uses a medium strong offensive bloodpact
Blood Pact: Ward (recast 60 seconds) avatar uses a buff on the party
Blood Pact: Spirit (recast 15 seconds) avatar uses a healing bloodpact
Blood Pact: Animosity (recast 25 seconds) avatar uses a debuff on the monster(s)

[Neisan_Quetz]

I think Garuda is so dominantly used among other avatars because of the increased Evasion and Karura Hachigane (Garuda -2perp./ATT+/DEF+).


Bolded the What.


Re: Timer split: Se is supposedly working on it. Probably at costing more mp.

[Soranika]

lol. Avatar Favor I think he was thinking of. Unless he still also believes Shiva's Heavenly Strike is better than anything else cause Shiva has more INT.

No, the reason Garuda is more dominantly used is because predator claws is known to deal out more raw damage. Coupled with whispering wind, Garuda has both power and survivability that most avatars do not have. Only SMN that have Karura Hachigane are the ones that bothered to ZNMs.... which is surprising low amount. Caller's Horn +2 easily replaces that or even Summoner's Horn for those subbing /sch.

[Dallas]

Get mp back > Impact in between Blood pacts obviously. Why didn't you all see it before?!

Obviously there are only three things to do between pacts. Melee decently, cure poorly, or absolutely JACK. Curing poorly burns MP, and meleeing generates MP. Doing absolutely JACK is why you should never post about SMN.

[Razushu]

Obviously there are only three things to do between pacts. Melee decently, cure poorly, or absolutely JACK. Curing poorly burns MP, and meleeing generates MP. Doing absolutely JACK is why you should never post about SMN.

LOL still clinging to the MP regeneration argument I see, if you ned to melee or get a hvergelmir to keep up MP you are doing it wrong. Any decently geared SMN can fight indefinitely without needing it or even the higher end -perp staves for that matter. In Abyssea it's more like melee poorly, cure poorly or nothing, but outside it's actually melee awfully, cure decently or do nothing.

[Soranika]

I'd love to see you solo a T2+ VNM outside of abyssea and apply that "melee for MP" concept. I like to melee on smn where ever I can but that's pretty delusional what you're spouting.

But really, doing absolutely jack inbetween blood pacts.... Making sure you're a good distance away to recast when your avatar is defeated. Making sure your maintaining all your buffs and recasting those that are wearing. If low on MP, making sure you're far away enough to use elemental siphon if solo or have some one hold it temporarily. Using Sublimation if subbing /sch. Keeping refresh up and using convert if /rdm. If you have hvergelmir, you should have already gathered TP before engaging the battle. Let's not forget the slew of gear that you can use for keeping refresh up. (AF3 +2, refresh augments on sterc subligar and moonshade earring. That one grip from dynamis if you bothered to get it. Not to mention perp staves)

You know though, I really want to see what gear you use to melee in.

[Evilvivi]

Protip: The SAM should Shikikoyo the SMN so that they could use Myrkr

[Dallas]

You know though, I really want to see what gear you use to melee in.

Karbuncle's sig plus the new kick boots and perhaps the pet haste belt is the new top setup. I'm sitting at 24% haste so far, but I am not interested in the grip. Once I get the belt, I'll go kill hundreds of tonberries to use my collar.

BTW, little factoid... I am a champion of duo parties. No interest in soloing on a MMORPG.

[Brightshadow]

Remade the whole thread let me know what you guys think ^^. Btw if you like it give me a thumbs up to get SE attention :p

[Soranika]

Self-sufficiency pretty much comes at high levels with gear while at low levels, the concept of leveling was for every one to rely on each other. SMN at low levels in a party setting were to be complemented by RDM, COR, or BRD with their abilities to give a refresh status. It's really hard for me to get behind adjustments to perp cost, even for lower levels. I do, however, only hope they don't drastically increase perp cost from 95-99. Not to mention avatar favor lowers perp cost, which seems to be almost never mentioned because focus lays on the the reduction of accuracy and power which I think only really hurts magical blood pacts (I only eyeball damage. I don't know the math in this.) I'd rather see avatar favor stay in full effect and not blink/reset when using a blood pact... that's the hugest hindrance to making it remotely useful.

All in all, I personally don't see much point in several of these adjustments. Maybe I'm gear whoring about that though cause a lot of gear corrects some of these issues. Increasing range on ranged blood pacts would be greatly appreciated. Increasing radius on Carbuncle's soothing ruby needs to be a definite must, and apparently undermentioned.

One thing I'm confused about is elemental siphon bonus based on elemental TP. If you're keeping summoning magic capped or near cap, with or without additional summoning magic equipment would net you over 400-500+ MP. Spirits typically aren't out long enough to gather TP* there for if you're using mana ceed, not only are you wasting 100mp, the gain may not even be beneficial. Not every SMN has caller's bracers +2 to make it useful and you're wasting a job ability better well spent on quickly increasing merit or healing blood pact potency.

*I tend to use elemental spirits in VW to aid HV elemental magic proccing early in the fights. Generally depends on luck and hoping the VWNM doesn't use silence. I've gotten particularly lucky on several occasions. As some people noticed though, Light Spirits have gotten an update and using higher tier offensive magic, although their buffing is a little less to be desired. I haven't touched elemental spirits outside of VW, aside from elemental siphon (which I use pretty rarely now acquiring Hvergelmir). If the other elemental spirits have obtained new magic, I'm not really sure since vw tends to be hectic and I do more than just eyeball what magic my spirits cast.

[Malamasala]

Overload is worse for the PUP than perp cost is for the SMN. Perp cost is trivial, overload is not. There are many times when PUP is only using the automaton, and meleeing is too dangerous, thus negating your alleged benefits.


Maybe you should learn how to play PUP then. I've never had problems with overload. The fact that you can negate it completely by being good at the job makes it far less of an annoyance than perpetuation which can only be negated by level 90 armors.

And I must say I've never seen a PUP wear full time 5-10 sets of -overload armor. While seeing a SMN with perpetuation all over the armors is more of a rule than a common occurrence.

[Kensagaku]

I fail to see the problem of wearing -perp gear. After all, plenty of it comes with MP+ or other bonuses. I won't lie, I'd like a little more avatar stats on my perp set like attack+ or some more pet haste, but even so I feel it doesn't hurt as much as you make it sound like. I don't have wtf gear, maybe a few good pieces here and there, but even so I feel it's not hard to perform adequately. For example, with my perp gear, I not only negate perp cost, but I'm actually gaining back 3MP/tick (4 if I have day/weather to boost Caller's Bracers +2), looking at only my gear and barring atma. Not only that, but my set comes with huge MP bonuses, some avatar attack, some accuracy. For those who'd ask:

Fay Crozier (Perp-3, Pet: Atk/R.Atk+6, MAB+3) / Vox Grip / Nothing / Hedgehog Bomb (should get Esper Stone)
Caller's Horn +2 / Caller's Pendant / Moonshade Earring (Refresh + M.acc+4) / Gifted Earring
Caller's Doublet +2 / Caller's Bracer +2 / Evoker's Ring / Bifrost Ring
Summoner's Cape / Hierarch Belt (need the Obi!) / Augur's Brais / Caller's Pigaches +2

Yes, I've got some decent gear, mainly in the +2s and the Gifted Earring. The rest of it isn't all that hard to get. And even with all my perp- gear (-13 Perp cost total), I see various bonuses: +413 MP, +3 MP/tick Refresh (5 if you count Auto Refresh II), Avatar Regain, Avatar Acc+, a little emnity-, a boost to Avatar's Favor, etc. If you're /SCH, the hands will cut you an extra MP/tick of Refresh (I guess that means my perp cost is 2? I could prolly switch in Nash gages if I ever get them for the same effect, but I like the MP and acc boost) for several avatars, and at 99 it'll do so for all but Ramuh, Carby, and the Dark elemental avatars. I sorta wish we'd get Thunderstorm as I actually use Ramuh but meh. Work with what you've got, right?

Quoting you, Mala: "Maybe you should learn how to play PUP then. I've never had problems with overload."

Maybe you should learn how to play SMN then, I've never had problems with perp cost and still keeping fairly useful bonuses.

[Malamasala]

Maybe you should learn how to play SMN then, I've never had problems with perp cost and still keeping fairly useful bonuses.

To get a perspective, imagine a BST wearing full SMN empyrean +2.

-Perpetuation, so that no BST pets cost MP. (They didn't from start, but hey, same result as a SMN shouldn't be brushed off!)

Enhances pet macc. Great. All BST pets who do magic moves will have better accuracy. SCORE!

+skill. Well, that is kind of like +ws accuracy for BST sic commands. Awesome!

Enhances siphon. Well, BST doesn't use siphon so lets assume BST version instead have "enhances heel command".



See my point? No other job would think SMN stats were good. It is just SMNs who've never once had a decent armor that go "Wow, this is much better than old armors! This one has for example def 27, my old had def 19!"

Just take a moment and think and it should be clear to you as well. (Like if ALL your bonuses were WS only on a melee armor set, would you wear it full time? No you'd want a TP set. SMN has no TP set, only a WS set we full time.)

[Soranika]

=\ I find it incredeble that you parade around so long as SMN being your #1 job and hate pretty much what make the job what it is. Perpetuation cost is a necessary crutch that will only hinder you if you let it. All of summoner specific gear has been about augmenting and enhancing avatar performance. AF3 set not only addresses perpetuation cost pretty much extensively, all the pieces increases avatar performance greatly, save for blood pact time reduction. It's really hard to actually see validation in your argument against the set and perpetuation cost.

And it's really hard to compare to jugmasters... lol I mean beastmasters, who have their own things to deal with, like finding charm and charmed pets utterly useless to the job. Their set of issues as a pet job is unrelated to SMN issues as a pet job.

[Kensagaku]

To get a perspective, imagine a BST wearing full SMN empyrean +2.

-Perpetuation, so that no BST pets cost MP. (They didn't from start, but hey, same result as a SMN shouldn't be brushed off!)

Enhances pet macc. Great. All BST pets who do magic moves will have better accuracy. SCORE!

+skill. Well, that is kind of like +ws accuracy for BST sic commands. Awesome!

Enhances siphon. Well, BST doesn't use siphon so lets assume BST version instead have "enhances heel command".



See my point? No other job would think SMN stats were good. It is just SMNs who've never once had a decent armor that go "Wow, this is much better than old armors! This one has for example def 27, my old had def 19!"

Just take a moment and think and it should be clear to you as well. (Like if ALL your bonuses were WS only on a melee armor set, would you wear it full time? No you'd want a TP set. SMN has no TP set, only a WS set we full time.)

..........

Did you just compare a SMN's style of play to a BST? I have both level 95, and play both fairly regularly, and I have the sense to know that the playstyle is completely different, so different armors apply to different situations...

But to use your own (poorly chosen) arguments:

-Comparing an Avatar's reduction in perp cost is like a reduction in how much gil jugs cost. Sure, there are those that craft jugs, but leveling a craft is about equivalent in effort to getting avatar perpetuation gear, nullifying costs in both ways... hey look, you have to do work for a job, shocker! It's not like SMN can't summon a new pet every 30 seconds versus BST getting one every few minutes, and oh, don't forget, you're not limited by quantity of jugs you have on you! And if you're having MP issues, you're doing something wrong.

-Enhancing pet M.acc... again the different style of play comes in. Avatars have a large number of magical BPs, and as a result improving their M.acc means less resists and more damage. BSTs, on the other hand, focus more on melee. Yet look, none of our AF3+2 has "Enhances Pet Accuracy". Thankfully the mantle makes up for that. Complain less, SMN gets a buff that's relevant to one of their damage styles (unless you're one of those WoE SMNs that throws Garuda at skeletons...)

-+skill has multiple uses, or don't you know how to play SMN? BP Ward duration (I love keeping Earthen Armor, Hastega, etc up for longer), Elemental Siphon boost, and SMN M.acc/P.acc for BPs. It's more than just WS acc.

-Enhances Siphon: Oh hey look, extra MP is bad for a job that is MP reliant. I forgot.

You can't just willy-nilly compare jobs that have completely different playstyles and applications. You're just looking for an excuse to play the "Oh, SMN is terrible" victim card. SMN has plenty of great equipment; it's just that its relevant applications are few at the moment due to the community's style of play.

An afterthought, now that it came to mind: You mentioned that SMNs are in a full-time WS set? Are you kidding? If you fulltime something like the set I have above, then you're doing it wrong. You should be switching into a bunch of different gear for both physical and magical BPs. For magical, get a Shareeravadi+3 for Pet: MAB, as well as a Caller's Sash, Tiresias' Cape, Summoning Magic gear, etc. For physical, get a Soulscorge or the Shareeravadi+3 on the fire path (I didn't bother to do another because that would mess up macros), then add pet: attack (Mujin Obi, Summoner's Pigaches, etc), accuracy, and skill to make up the rest.

If you're fulltiming your set for BPs, then it's the equivalent of a WAR using Ukko's in their TP set... reduced potency, and overall a poor choice of gear.

[Camate]

We are currently looking into enhancing elemental spirits.

However, rather than simply adjusting their behavior, we feel that everyone might enjoy things a bit more if we were to do something different, so we feel this is a bit low on the priority scale. However, if you feel differently please let us know!

[Malamasala]

We are currently looking into enhancing elemental spirits.

However, rather than simply adjusting their behavior, we feel that everyone might enjoy things a bit more if we were to do something different, so we feel this is a bit low on the priority scale. However, if you feel differently please let us know!

You have no idea how much this post means to me. (But since I put it in my sig, it may be a hint).

My personal priority list would be:

1. Ward effect scaling with levels (or summoning skill), and no moon phase/time of day reliance

2. Splitting Global BP timers into more timers (but I guess I'll settle for that coming -BP ability, if it will work)

3. Spirits

4. Cait Sith and Atomos (Because frankly we all expect these to just be clones of carbuncle and diabolos and be mostly useless)

X. More armors with +pet haste/double attack/triple attack combined with master haste/accuracy/attack/STR/double attack. ("X" as in can be implemented with any of the coming updates since it is just armor bonuses)



Anyhow, can you share any information about what the current developer ideas are for Spirits? I have a hard time imagining a new different system since I've always focused on them just being the same but not worthless.

We have been brainstorming some on these forums before of course. With things like comboing avatars + spirits so the spirit kind of tags along and nukes while the avatar fights. Or stuff like summon spirit, gain access to all BLM or WHM spells of their element as your own spells. Considering we are on 50% of all the BLM and WHM armors, perhaps that wouldn't be a bad system to make us use the armors we are given.

Also, any timeframe on this? I'm assuming -BP timer and new avatars for march level 99 cap raise, so perhaps after summer?

[Leonlionheart]

Very low on the priority scale

[Zubis]

Very low on the priority scale.

Don't get me wrong I think it's awesome these issues are acknowledged, but if I were asked to assign a dev to enhancing spirits or adding the -BP ability that might be on the cards...well it's an easy choice.

Basically, work on the BP timer first. Everything else is delicious gravy.

[Luvbunny]

Sorry summoners, our job is VERY LOW in the priority, extremely low, maybe in 5 years low... This type of response is somewhat offensive. For a game that is bringing them ACTUAL money from paying subscribers, improving and updating the game should be VERY HIGH in the priority. Let's see how many people will actually pay for the hot mess that is FF14 by this December shall we? Charging for a full year before they release the version 2 is a very smart business move, if your intention is to just kill that business. On the other hand, might as well just kill FF14 so they can focus on 11 - in retrospect, starting to charge a year before hand is a very smart move.

There are tons of fixes that they need to do with summoner still but I doubt they will do it soon. Beast and Pup finally got the love they deserve, it is about time we do as well. For some reasons the developer really really hate summoner job....

[Kensagaku]

We are currently looking into enhancing elemental spirits.

However, rather than simply adjusting their behavior, we feel that everyone might enjoy things a bit more if we were to do something different, so we feel this is a bit low on the priority scale. However, if you feel differently please let us know!

Eh, I feel it's pretty low there, Camate. Don't get me wrong; I'd love my little ball of energy to be useful once in a while. Voidwatch, sometimes there's a lot of spells and since we don't bring a DRK I use my Dark Spirit for Absorb spells. If I'm in the outside party, I use Light Spirit for buffs. The rest? Our BLM or RDM can handle them, it seems pointless to use them for anything else but Siphon. I don't really see a point to enhancing them, even if you do open up their spell lists a bit more. I mean, I'd appreciate it on Light Spirit (Protect/Shell V {Yes Please} ;~; ), but for the most part, I hope this gets dropped on the priority list.

Mala's list is a pretty good feel of what I'd like to see, though I'd bump armors with pet boosts up a few notches to above Spirits (They'd be great for BPs or slots where you don't have to worry about -perp... hell, I'd be willing to go make a ToM staff for them if the slots are good enough. I just hate going from four staves back up to eleven again for SMN. ;~; ) and then bump the rest of the list down one.

[Alhanelem]

Sorry summoners, our job is VERY LOW in the prioritySpirits is not "our joh." The avatars are.

the other 99% of the job is not as low a priority as spirits are. The rest of the summoner community should be offended that something more important about the job isn't being looked into.

That's how you should be interpreting this.

The only way I'd ever want to use a spirit outside of their current (and highly useful) functions is if I could have both an avatar and a spirit at the same time.

[Darkwizardzin]

Sorry summoners, our job is VERY LOW in the priority, extremely low, maybe in 5 years low... This type of response is somewhat offensive. For a game that is bringing them ACTUAL money from paying subscribers, improving and updating the game should be VERY HIGH in the priority. Let's see how many people will actually pay for the hot mess that is FF14 by this December shall we? Charging for a full year before they release the version 2 is a very smart business move, if your intention is to just kill that business. On the other hand, might as well just kill FF14 so they can focus on 11 - in retrospect, starting to charge a year before hand is a very smart move.

There are tons of fixes that they need to do with summoner still but I doubt they will do it soon. Beast and Pup finally got the love they deserve, it is about time we do as well. For some reasons the developer really really hate summoner job....

Wow how ungrateful...

Look maybe you should have read that alittle better. Camate was saying that elemental spirits were low priority not the smn job. Camate took the time to tell you that they know about that issue with the job and that they are working on a change and all you can do is wine?

It's looks to me that you drk's,smn's just like to whine sometimes... If SE says they are working on a problem some of you have wanted fixed you should be at least grateful they have said as much. I'm still waiting on a fix for black mage's inablitly to have a emp,mythic,reilc that's useful.

[Alhanelem]

What we should be more concerned about is how the two bits of news are totally un-newsworthy.

Warrior: We're impleneting this nerf as planned, and we will watch it carefully.

Summoner: We're looking into this, but we're not doing anything now.

<insert job> We've decided not to do anything here and monitor the situation.

[Manicora]

GO back to wow.

[Soranika]

I must be one of the few don't really see anything to take out of this.

Enhancing elemental spirits low on the list of priorities for SMN as a whole... sounds like it is. There's other things many of us who play SMN are looking forward to more than enhancing elemental spirits and I'd like to hear something in regards to those things before responding to it.

[Dann]

Hey if the developers can think of some new creative use for spirits, then im all for it. If thats what he means when he said we might enjoy it if they did something diffrent aside from ONLY adjusting their behavior.

[Pebe]

I'd personally be happy if everytime we summoned an avatar two helper spirits came out with it. Or we could use a job ability that allowed to helper spirits to come out with it in exchange for extra perp cost. For instance, think waking the beast quest, just with less spirits. Although, the spirits need a boost in there spell list and there AI, with a little less casting time and this would be a great combo. Also maybe you could control the two helper spirits depending on bloodpact you used. If a physical bloodpact was used, the spirits would nuke. If an enhancing bloodpact was used the spirits would use enhancing magic. It would be fun imo. Imagine a carbuncle and two light spirits. Carbuncle readies healing ruby II, light spirit 1 and 2 ready curaga IV (a little overpowered obviously :P would be scaled down). Or, carbuncle readies holy mist, light spirits 1 and 2 ready Holy II, etc. And when the avatar dies, the elementals dismiss. Also, all hate from the combined attacks of the avatar and spirits would be combined on the avatar. That way a smn solo can't have just have to two spirits get hate and the avatar lives, lengthening the time they have to run away / repostition,etc. Would be broken solo without. But yea, just an idea.

oh and btw, since we know atomos is a 2hr summon. I better see a giant mouth in the sky when we summon him! No stupid cavernous maw! (I can dream right :P)

[Xellith]

Spirits are just as much a part of the Summoner Job description as Avatar Pacts are - just most people dont use spirits because they are worthless in most situations. I would welcome some changes to the way that spirits work so they are used on a regular basis. However I believe that samurai needs a few more uber updates first *snickers*

[Juri_Licious]

I've always thought it'd be kinda neat to summon a Pixie. (Maybe it could revive you too)

But anyways, about Spirits. I think the main issue is how much perpetuation cost they have so lowing that by a tremendous amount would be nice.

Also, add Bahamut already.

[Soranika]

With SMN AF+2, any kind of perp staff (NQ, HQ, fay, bahamut or magian elemental staves) can reduce elemental spirits current perp cost to like 1-2mp per tick if you summon that spirit on anyday. Effectively negates on the corresponding day/weather. You'll even see a refresh of 1mp per tick if you continue to deck out refresh gear, like the moonshade earring or sterc subligar with refresh augment. Spirits are perp cost effective to use if you're desire to use them and that was a major set back to you.

[hideka]

1)
It seems to be a rule of this game that light element cannot be powerful. Holy mist is only BARELY better than meteorite.

800 Damage Luminohelix GO!

[hideka]

personally all in all, i think summoner needs a few things

1) the ability to instantly call out an avatar for a blood pact ward*
2) the ability to instantly call out an avatar for blood pact rage*
3) High damage AOE blood pacts. summoners current AOE status is limited to thunder spark, debuffs and 2hour.
4) Removal of Favor damage penalty
5) new avatars (which are coming) that ARENOT in the Line of Odin and Alexander. we need new avatars that can perpetuate and be fairly useful.
6) Filling out the ranks of Bloodpact ward for all the various Summons.**

* This ability would be akin to the call/conjure Command ability, where the summoner would call out an avatar that matches the day, and he would either use a BP rage or BP ward at random for 0 MP cost on the current target.

** rounding out the lists of BP wards for the avatars. some avatars have 4-5 wards, others have 2, but for the most part they all have roughly the same number of rages. (diabolos carbuncle and fenrit being the exceptions.)

[Covenant]

Lol..I like how he said "elemental spirits" and a lot of people translated this into a bloodpact/avatar discussion. If the deve team needs ideas for elemental spirits look at my AvaTar and spirits revamping thread. Not only did I offer a lot of changes, but a lot of people offered their 2bits as wells.

Mostly simply is allow all the spirits to level appropriate.

Or allow the use of dual natured "higher" elemental spirits.

[Covenant]

Maybe offer a different armor/gear set then a shared -perp cost, aimed specifically at elemental spirits. I can think of a set of torgques which boosts specific elemental spirits from casting timers, magic burst bonuses, etc.

[hideka]

oh god why didnt i look at the OP's name... i remember you from the wiki forums... *dropping this thread*

[Juri_Licious]

How about giving Diabolos a new powerful blood pact?

[Malamasala]

Mostly simply is allow all the spirits to level appropriate.

Or allow the use of dual natured "higher" elemental spirits.

I disagree. The biggest issue of them all today is their casting timer system. 25 seconds FROM ASSAULT to cast a spell is just terrible. And this is if you invested all your time into improving spirits, the default is 48 seconds FROM ASSAULT. This always means the moment your spell starts casting, each party member has dished out 2-5k damage. Meaning the only monsters you can even hit with a spirit are mobs with 25k+ HP, or more or less high tier NMs, which will doe AOE sleepga/silencega/stunga/damage and kill your spirit before it casts. And if it casts, it has standard naked BLM skill and INT so it will be resisted on said high level NMs.

The first and foremost important change on spirits will be to make them able to cast faster. Cast before they are silenced/slept/killed/monster died. Any other changes are pointless because even if spirits did 9999 damage, they'd rarely get the spells off and feel like 2 hour moves.

Everything else is secondary improvements. Like less resist, more spells, better AI, etc.


How about giving Diabolos a new powerful blood pact?

I can't promise anything, but I think ALL avatars will have a level 99 damage pact. Hopefully AOE, but you never know with SE.

[gheldhart]

Honestly, summoner is fine the way it is for the most part. My only suggestion would be to add Enspells (as innate traits) to the avatar you have summoned. Garuda (enaero), Ifrit (enfire), etc. Since the DPS for melee attacks on avatars is about equivalent to the staff hit of the actual summoner themselves (kinda sad, but true) it would make sense to give them a bit of an edge in that department. Also, it would be fantastic if Summoning Magic Skill had a bit more use. It's great that they affect things like Elemental Siphon and Buffs but it should also affect accuracy, attack, magic accuracy and magic attack the same way that Elemental Magic skill would.

These are simple changes that would make a drastic change in any summoner. Also, it would greatly show the difference between someone who takes the job seriously and someone who leeches xp in abyssea til they are max level. Skill should equate to effectiveness. The perpetuation is fine, doesn't need to be touched. If you are having trouble keeping your avatars out, perhaps you are not playing the job very wisely. I get 3 MP back with any avatar out at 95 so I don't see how this could be considered a problem.

I will say that the blood pacts that exist right now are hit and miss. Some of the buffs are decent..but also not really that great. For instance...Earthen Ward, while AoE stoneskin is great, having it block a measly 300 damage at level 95 is hardly useful at all. If these sorts of buffs were also related to summoning magic skill, they would be a lot more useful. For instance, if you are level 95 and you use earthen ward with 430 summoning magic skill, is it unreasonable to have your stoneskin block 1,000 damage? I think not. Just some thoughts from a LONG TIME player. Have a good day! ^-^

[Annalise]

lol. Avatar Favor I think he was thinking of. Unless he still also believes Shiva's Heavenly Strike is better than anything else cause Shiva has more INT.

No, the reason Garuda is more dominantly used is because predator claws is known to deal out more raw damage. Coupled with whispering wind, Garuda has both power and survivability that most avatars do not have. Only SMN that have Karura Hachigane are the ones that bothered to ZNMs.... which is surprising low amount. Caller's Horn +2 easily replaces that or even Summoner's Horn for those subbing /sch.

Predator claws and Garuda being the cheapest when ZNM was new was definitely what made Garuda the most popular. Couple in hastega being buffed, blink, and AoE healing and it just made her more popular. People merited wind blade because she was the cheapest avatar to use (and also the fastest at generating tp, with haste).

This has persisted over time, and people think Garuda is still the best choice. She is still a solid choice, but as always, it's situational. It's no different than beastmaster. Many people thought that CourrierCarrie was the jug of choice, when she was really just the cheapest. Lots of jugs such as LifeDrinkerLars outperformed carrie. CourrierCarrie was essentially the 'meat mithkabob' of jug pets.

Shiva does not have more intelligence than the other celestial avatars (they all had 82 int at 75), and garuda does not have higher evasion or agility than all of the other celestial avatars. Fenrir is actually the odd one out, with the highest base damage and the lowest delay, giving Fenrir the highest DoT (though obviously losing in spike damage to others).


Everyone where you look there are summoners. Soloing NMs in abyssea, creating a wall of Garudas on skeletons in WOE flux 11. (LOL, never played SMN but pretty sure Garuda isn't best choice on skeletons.) The job doesn't need a thing.


You're right but they don't known any better. Could you imagine a dozen or so Titans out there though? Lag would be the last thing others will complain about.

I've used Chaotic Strike, I've used Mountain Buster, I've used Flaming Crush, and I've used Wind Blade in WoE. Which generally performs consistently and the best? Wind Blade level 5. I never used Heavenly Strike on them because skeletons are strong to ice.

The skeletons spam AoE blind, which is going to hamper your physical pacts a bit. Does this affect wind blade? It only lowers tp a bit from misses. The difference in a few tp is nothing compared to missing say the first hit in chaotic strike.

Garuda can also haste and heal everyone around, which is a plus, especially if people are soloing.

If they're using Predator claws, they're doing it wrong.

If they're using Garuda, they aren't necessarily doing it wrong. Yes, skeletons aren't weak to wind, but they're not strong to it either. I didn't have any resistance issues with Wind blade, and typically it outperforms physical pacts on those skeletons. Even should you get a triple critical Chaotic strike, a level 5 magical pact (from anything aside from Shiva) is over time going to outperform it on those mobs. Just as it was at 75 on stronger mobs (e.g. dolls and golems in sky) merit bloodpacts (outside abyssea) outperform physical bloodpacts over time. This is why I killed dolls in sky faster with wind blade than other people did using predator claws (and no, dolls do not get a blunt bonus, that's magic pots).

[Soranika]

For some one who doesn't want to use Garuda constantly, Titan works well as well against skeleton family. Geocrush is as good as an alternative to using Mountain Buster on Titan if summoners with low summoning magic skill have to worry about blind. Considering there's little to no difference to Wind Blade, Titan comes off with better DoT over Garuda. In lieu of Garuda's Hastega and Whispering Wind, Earthen Ward spam does just as much to to ensure survival of other players in WoE Flux #11.

But really it's as easy as saying it's not what avatar you use, it's how you use them. If I'm in a WoE conflux with no WHM and a bunch of SMN and melee already there, I'm not going in to deal damage, I'm going in to support with Carbuncle, Titan, or Fenrir. But if I'm going to fight a skel type monster head on, I'm going Titan or Ifrit.


I've used Chaotic Strike, I've used Mountain Buster, I've used Flaming Crush, and I've used Wind Blade in WoE. Which generally performs consistently and the best? Wind Blade level 5. I never used Heavenly Strike on them because skeletons are strong to ice
Oh before I post, I wanted to single this out because it bothers me to no end that you compared a magical, merit blood pact to physical, normal blood pacts that do not benefit from TP bonus. Nevermind the fact that not every summoner has 5/5 merits on Wind Blade. (Personally I only have 2/5 on it). When you take out elemental weaknesses and resistance, all merit blood pacts deal pretty much the same damage and usually always better over most common physical blood pacts with the exception of Predator Claws to mobs that are more resistant to magic than physical damage.

[Annalise]

For some one who doesn't want to use Garuda constantly, Titan works well as well against skeleton family. Geocrush is as good as an alternative to using Mountain Buster on Titan if summoners with low summoning magic skill have to worry about blind. Considering there's little to no difference to Wind Blade, Titan comes off with better DoT over Garuda. In lieu of Garuda's Hastega and Whispering Wind, Earthen Ward spam does just as much to to ensure survival of other players in WoE Flux #11.

But really it's as easy as saying it's not what avatar you use, it's how you use them. If I'm in a WoE conflux with no WHM and a bunch of SMN and melee already there, I'm not going in to deal damage, I'm going in to support with Carbuncle, Titan, or Fenrir. But if I'm going to fight a skel type monster head on, I'm going Titan or Ifrit.


Oh before I post, I wanted to single this out because it bothers me to no end that you compared a magical, merit blood pact to physical, normal blood pacts that do not benefit from TP bonus. Nevermind the fact that not every summoner has 5/5 merits on Wind Blade. (Personally I only have 2/5 on it). When you take out elemental weaknesses and resistance, all merit blood pacts deal pretty much the same damage and usually always better over most common physical blood pacts with the exception of Predator Claws to mobs that are more resistant to magic than physical damage.

Did you miss this part of my post? Or most of my post?

"I didn't have any resistance issues with Wind blade, and typically it outperforms physical pacts on those skeletons. Even should you get a triple critical Chaotic strike, a level 5 magical pact (from anything aside from Shiva) is over time going to outperform it on those mobs. Just as it was at 75 on stronger mobs (e.g. dolls and golems in sky) merit bloodpacts (outside abyssea) outperform physical bloodpacts over time. This is why I killed dolls in sky faster with wind blade than other people did using predator claws (and no, dolls do not get a blunt bonus, that's magic pots). "

Clearly I state the difference that it is magical vs. physical. I also state in my post that blind will lower the accuracy of the physical. I also state that any level 5 merit pact (aside from heavenly) will do well on them. Yes, they are the same damage. Not "pretty much the same damage" but exactly the same base damage. Avatar stats do not vary between celestials. Shiva does not have higher intelligence. Titan does not have higher vitality.

I also said that merit pacts usually outperform physical pacts on anything with a bit of defense outside abyssea. And the physical pacts I spoke of were the ones that get a bonus on skeletons.

I didn't say that everyone should have 5/5 wind blade.

I am saying the blanket statement of "you're using garuda, therefore you are an idiot" is wrong.

[Soranika]

Did you miss this part of my post?

"I didn't have any resistance issues with Wind blade, and typically it outperforms physical pacts on those skeletons. Even should you get a triple critical Chaotic strike, a level 5 magical pact (from anything aside from Shiva) is over time going to outperform it on those mobs. Just as it was at 75 on stronger mobs (e.g. dolls and golems in sky) merit bloodpacts (outside abyssea) outperform physical bloodpacts over time. This is why I killed dolls in sky faster with wind blade than other people did using predator claws (and no, dolls do not get a blunt bonus, that's magic pots). "It's still an unfair comparison. While you're giving others the benifit of the doubt, 9 times out of 10 when you go do woe with a bunch of other random SMN, they are spamming Predator Claws like it's going out of style. What I was trying to say is that it's an unfair comparison though. Of course merited blood pacts will deal out more over physical. But at 5/5, your windblade always have TP bonus even with 0. But take that out of the equation, other avatars are suited just the same an more than one regard. But what I take from your argument is that Garuda is all SMN need since she covers every base, but ignore significant advantages over another avatars that are well suited as well. Completely irrelevant to the conflux 11 skeletons, would you use Garuda on mage skeletons knowing they use ice magic? Have you compared normal auto-attack damage between Garuda and Titan or Ifrit on skeletons?

Also accuracy for physical blood pacts aren't THAT greatly effected by blind if summoning magic skill is high. When you have more than handful of SMN wailing on an single enemy, does that even matter? A very real issue with SMN is MP management because they aren't geared to handle merit blood pact spam every single moment they get.


Clearly I state the difference that it is magical vs. physical. I also state in my post that blind will lower the accuracy of the physical. I also state that any level 5 merit pact (aside from heavenly) will do well on them. Yes, they are the same damage. Not "pretty much the same damage" but exactly the same base damage. Avatar stats do not vary between celestials. Shiva does not have higher intelligence. Titan does not have higher vitality.I avoided commenting specifically on that in your last post because it is indeed silly to think avatars have a stat difference over the others. You didn't read my post properly if you assumed that I believe that just cause I pointed out that there are people out there that STILL carry that belief because they know little about SMN.

I'm not into the math of it all, but you also misread "pretty much same damage" entirely wrong. Not everyone is using merited blood pacts with 2+ merits on that ability, nor do they allow time to build up TP, hence "pretty much" as TP is relative to the damage.


I am saying the blanket statement of "you're using garuda in Flux 11, therefore you are an idiot" is wrong.Fixed.
On a less trollish note, Garuda isn't the only avatar SMN have. By you defending use of Garuda in an area where use of another avatar should be encouraged, I personally see that as a 'justification' on your part that Garuda covers every need SMN have and only in extreme situations should another avatar be used if she fails in that area. Aside from that, the only other thing I get out of this is saying "Garuda can do it too, so don't hate." And I'll say just because she can "do it too" doesn't mean there other avatars are not capable because you chose to use Wind Blade in comparison to their physical blood pacts instead of their merited ones (Thunderstorm, Geocrush, Meteor Strike). Not to mention these avatars also grant other Blood pact: ward benefits that makes it more useful to see more diversity in avatars than everyone wasting MP overcasting the same one specifically in areas where these benefits are not limited to a single party but everyone.

So summary... I still don't see it smart for SMN to be all using Garuda in Conflux 11 specifically. We have other avatars; use them. There's no excuse not to.

[Mirage]

Wouldn't it make sense if the spirits used offensive and supportive magic whenever we used rage or ward pet commands? Even if we couldn't pick the spells freely, it could make them cast like one of the two most powerful nukes the spirit had access to at any given level.

[Annalise]

It's still an unfair comparison. While you're giving others the benifit of the doubt, 9 times out of 10 when you go do woe with a bunch of other random SMN, they are spamming Predator Claws like it's going out of style. What I was trying to say is that it's an unfair comparison though. Of course merited blood pacts will deal out more over physical. But at 5/5, your windblade always have TP bonus even with 0. But take that out of the equation, other avatars are suited just the same an more than one regard. But what I take from your argument is that Garuda is all SMN need since she covers every base, but ignore significant advantages over another avatars that are well suited as well. Completely irrelevant to the conflux 11 skeletons, would you use Garuda on mage skeletons knowing they use ice magic? Have you compared normal auto-attack damage between Garuda and Titan or Ifrit on skeletons?

How is it an unfair comparison? We're talking about using an effective avatar on skeletons in WoE 11. Garuda is an effective avatar if used properly, and not awful. It's not a terrible choice. Yes, as I said before, Predator Claws there is a terrible idea. If you do not have wind blade, by all means use something else. If you have something besides heavenly strike merited higher than wind blade, use that.

I also never said Garuda should be used on everything. If you're going for damage, you should use whichever avatar will do the most. Garuda just tends to cover more situations than most, but there are definitely situations that should use other avatars. Most of my examples are @ 75 when I used summoner a hell of a lot more than I do today, which is more inside abyssea than out. Examples were Leviathan on imps @ 75 (though garuda killed faster, leviathan was nearly resistant to amnesia). Heavenly strike on anything higher defense that doesn't resist ice (i.e. most mobs) but resists whatever else you have merited. Ramuh on Steam Cleaner @ 75.

On skeletons, magic pots, and corses who have squishier defense, you should definitely use something like Ramuh or Titan over Garuda.

Do you really think Titan and Ifrit will do more auto-attacking on skeletons? How much do you really know about summoner?

All avatars use Hand-to-Hand (and not blunt, it's slightly different) damage for their auto-attack. All celestial avatars are the same base damage and delay. Ifrit and Ramuh can have enspells for added damage, Garuda gets haste. Garuda also gets tp faster for Wind Blade. Ifrit can also boost his attack by a small amount that will hardly make a difference.

Fenrir actually has the highest damage and lowest delay for auto-attack.

Ifrit, Ramuh, Fenrir, and Garuda are all above Titan in regard to DPS.

And merit blood pacts only outperform physical on anything with decent defense. Since Physical bloodpacts cap at 4.0 PDIF, their damage can climb up pretty high on weaker defense mobs.

Garuda gets the job done in WoE 11 just fine. If you don't have wind blade, obviously use something else. If you have it but have a non-heavenly strike avatar with a higher merit level, use that instead. Saying that "if you didn't have level 5 wind blade she wouldn't be good there" is not an effective argument.

Again, just saying that use of Garuda in WoE 11 is not necessarily stupid.


Also accuracy for physical blood pacts aren't THAT greatly effected by blind if summoning magic skill is high. When you have more than handful of SMN wailing on an single enemy, does that even matter? A very real issue with SMN is MP management because they aren't geared to handle merit blood pact spam every single moment they get.

So are you trying to say more summoners take away the accuracy penalty from blind, or that missing your bloodpact doesn't matter because there are more summoners to make up for it?

I have 6/tick refresh with an avatar out solo, and /RDM convert. Combined with nearly maxed (haven't maxed since 90->95 yet) skill with nearly the best gear for siphon, it's rare that I run out of MP even when spamming Wind Blade/Hastega/Whispering Wind. If you're having terrible MP problems, get better gear.


I avoided commenting specifically on that in your last post because it is indeed silly to think avatars have a stat difference over the others. You didn't read my post properly if you assumed that I believe that just cause I pointed out that there are people out there that STILL carry that belief because they know little about SMN.

I'm not into the math of it all, but you also misread "pretty much same damage" entirely wrong. Not everyone is using merited blood pacts with 2+ merits on that ability, nor do they allow time to build up TP, hence "pretty much" as TP is relative to the damage.

I mentioned that because you mentions Shiva having higher intelligence in another post. And again, it's not 'pretty much the same damage'. It's the same. Yes, TP varies. But Wind Blade at 147 tp will do the same as Heavenly Strike at 147 tp, etc.

And if they don't have 2+ merits on an ability, that's because they didn't finish meriting. You're given ten, and there are only six. General consensus is:
Max one, unlock five
Max two
3 Merits in two, 1 merit 4 in others.

If you use all ten, there is no way you cannot end up with 2+ in four of them, or 3+ in some, etc.


Fixed.
On a less trollish note, Garuda isn't the only avatar SMN have. By you defending use of Garuda in an area where use of another avatar should be encouraged, I personally see that as a 'justification' on your part that Garuda covers every need SMN have and only in extreme situations should another avatar be used if she fails in that area. Aside from that, the only other thing I get out of this is saying "Garuda can do it too, so don't hate." And I'll say just because she can "do it too" doesn't mean there other avatars are not capable because you chose to use Wind Blade in comparison to their physical blood pacts instead of their merited ones (Thunderstorm, Geocrush, Meteor Strike). Not to mention these avatars also grant other Blood pact: ward benefits that makes it more useful to see more diversity in avatars than everyone wasting MP overcasting the same one specifically in areas where these benefits are not limited to a single party but everyone.

So summary... I still don't see it smart for SMN to be all using Garuda in Conflux 11 specifically. We have other avatars; use them. There's no excuse not to.

I figured you knew I meant in WoE 11 since that's what we were talking about.

I don't think people should be encouraged to use something else if what they're using is working, either. If someone had level 5 wind blade, and level 5 grand fall, would I encourage them to put away leviathan and use garuda? No. Grand fall is working just fine on those skeletons. If someone is using predator claws and lacks Wind blade, then yes, they should be using something else (e.g Ramuh) and I would encourage them to do so.

I never said other avatars couldn't do it, either. In fact I said any but Shiva are well suited there (as rush sucks, and Heavenly strike will be resisted) if you use them properly. You are the one who said that less avatars (e.g. not garuda) aren't suited there. Any non-shiva avatar with a merit pact level 5 will do just fine. If you don't have it, then that's your choice to do less damage, or laziness because someone (not you, I know you didn't burn smn) burned summoner in abyssea and didn't merit. They can use physical pacts there if they want, even with their damage bonus, and they will underperform compared to their own merit pacts.

Thunderstorm level 5 will outperform Chaotic Strike there. That's a comparison of two blood pacts with the same avatar if that suits you better.

Yeah, multiple bloodpact wards are nice. After your Avatar uses rage, you can always call a new avatar and use a ward. I've done so plenty of times with carbuncle there. Carbuncle has some of the best wards you can use there. But should someone be using carbuncle exclusively? Not if they want to contribute more damage. Carbuncle is by far the weakest.

The way summoner has been for many many years now has been this, and most of the summoner community will agree:

Garuda is typically the strongest. Predator claws being a three hit bloodpact typically puts out good numbers.

Garuda has the potential for the lowest perpetuation cost among the celestial avatars. That was all the Karura Hachigane, of course, which is still a nice piece should you not have something better.

This is similar to BST using nursery nazuna on everything. BLM using ice on everything, and when all else fails, use thunder (then fall back to things like wind if both of those fail). Melees using the same WS over and over (though abyssea changed that a bit to critical weaponskills, e.g. no one used evisceration over dancing edge or shark bite before). Puppetmaster always using sharpshot over valoredge.

Would it be nice if the avatars were evened out a bit more? Yes. Hopefully with some new bloodpacts the job won't be so Garuda focused. The job is pushed most toward Garuda. I take it you just don't like that the job is so Garuda focused, and I can't blame you.