Cure V

[Aurara]

SE, please please please give RDM cure V again, it's been how long since we got a cure spell? 48? I really think this could solve some issues, but beyond that make rdm desired again inside abyssea for things other than phalanxII :|

Edit: Not just for abyssea, because lolabyssea, but maybe do something to make rdm more desired for voidwatch or something

[Neisan_Quetz]

Flash while you're at it so Rdm has a divine spell.

[Greatguardian]

And Jubaku: Ni.









I mean, Flash.

[xbobx]

Wow never seen this topic before

[Aurara]

Wow never seen this topic before

Me neither, so i decided to make one :) pls dont troll guys

[Ophannus]

They can keep the 'low enmity generation' for WHM only like how NIN's Ni is only 4 shadows for NIN main. Can even remove the VIT modifier or make it require more healing skill to cap for non WHMs. This would make it more like Cure4.5 than Cure 5 and would be RDM/SCH/PLD's 'equivalent of Cure VI'. By equivalent of Cure VI I mean high MP cost and not much higher healing power than previous cure. Just like Cure 6 is basically Cure 5.5 and costs monstrous amounts of MP and hardly heals more than Cure 5, Cure 5 for RDM/SCH/PLD if it was weakened a bit, could just be a less MP efficient Cure 4.5

[saevel]

Well if they give WHM something more then sure. Cure VI sucks right now though. Possibly give WHM Erase II that removes multiple status ailments and make a JT so that their cure's randomly remove a detrimental status ailment.

Then Give RDM Cure V ^^

[Neisan_Quetz]

Fix Cure VI, give other jobs Cure V, everyone wins, whm walks out the deal better, but everyone wins.

[Fredjan]

Obligatory "As if this subject hasn't been discussed a million times."


Fix Cure VI, give other jobs Cure V, everyone wins, whm walks out the deal better, but everyone wins.

This.

Cure VI is so inefficient (let alone Curaga V >_>, at least it's free with /SCH+AF3+2 pants+Penury with enough HP cured) outside of Abyssea that it's hilarious, I have yet to find one justifiable reason to use it outside.

[saevel]

Cure VI is for those moments you need to cure two people for massive HP. Cure V's recast is not big, but it's just big enough that it there will be times when you need another big cure RFN.

Still it's too expensive for it's cure power. And healing raw HP isn't the problem now, its the status ailments. That is why I said give WHM Erase II and a JT that makes their regular cures randomly remove a status ailment. VWNM monsters use moves that inflict 2~4 status ailments on everyone around them. Even with a WHM, RDM and BRD spamming erase it becomes nearly impossible to keep them off the two PLD's all the time.

[Shiyo]

Cure VI is for those moments you need to cure two people for massive HP. Cure V's recast is not big, but it's just big enough that it there will be times when you need another big cure RFN.

Still it's too expensive for it's cure power. And healing raw HP isn't the problem now, its the status ailments. That is why I said give WHM Erase II and a JT that makes their regular cures randomly remove a status ailment. VWNM monsters use moves that inflict 2~4 status ailments on everyone around them. Even with a WHM, RDM and BRD spamming erase it becomes nearly impossible to keep them off the two PLD's all the time.

Clearly, in order to make SCH and RDM better healers outside, we should buff WHM more!

[Kitkat]

I don't think rdm needs cure V, but SE does need to fix the soft caps of Cure I-IV without creating more enmity while doing so. 600HP on a melee that has almost three times that HP outside of abyssea isn't much. Especially when a cure V does about 1100 outside of abyssea. I would rather see a proposed fix to the cure equation than giving rdm cure V.

[Lollerblades]

To be honest, they need to give RDM & Scholar Cure V. I'm not a RDM so i wont claim to be.. However i am a Scholar.. I reckon Scholar will get 95-99 Under Addendum: White, RDM should get it around the same point. I'm a WHM also and i honestly can't see a problem with either jobs getting it. It's not like they can cureskin.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

To be honest, they need to give RDM & Scholar Cure V. I'm not a RDM so i wont claim to be.. However i am a Scholar.. I reckon Scholar will get 95-99 Under Addendum: White, RDM should get it around the same point. I'm a WHM also and i honestly can't see a problem with either jobs getting it. It's not like they can cureskin.

RDM needs to get it before to fit the job. it goes WHM then RDM, then SCH & PLD.

[Vortex]

Oh for crying out loud ANOTHER whining topic about Cure V, when will this crap end. They already mentioned that they plan on curing a "higher" tier cure later but i don't think it will be cure V, let this crap die, im sorry you rdms can't be the King/queens of healing like you were for 4 years but whining about it 1,001 times really isn't going to get SE to give you something that you don't really need.

I said it before and i'll say it again, if you want cure V play whm. RDM can't solve everything. if ANY other mage jobs should get a better cure SCH gets it since they are already better healers then rdm anyway.

RDM/NIN are masters are soloing, a whm/nin and a sch/nin cann't accoplish what a rdm/nin could. but RDMS just want it all i guess. healing, enfeebling, soloing, i guess next you'll want AM2s and tier 5 spells.

[Felren]

Rdm,Sch need to be so good that they don't need the healing potential Cure V brings, or they need Cure V to be actually a viable job.

Between Rdm getting self-target only stat boost spells while whm gets the party stat boost spells and temper being self-cast only, Rdm is getting zero party usefulness every update while they could be getting more. It wouldn't be as bad either if those buffs would work with Accession, but they don't. Since 75, Rdm has gotten Refresh II and job abilities. For god's sake they even get a unique spell like Addle AND IT IS GIVEN TO WHITE MAGE THE NEXT UPDATE. This is all the while giving red mage cure V would be "broken".

[Aurara]

Oh for crying out loud ANOTHER whining topic about Cure V, when will this crap end. They already mentioned that they plan on curing a "higher" tier cure later but i don't think it will be cure V, let this crap die, im sorry you rdms can't be the King/queens of healing like you were for 4 years but whining about it 1,001 times really isn't going to get SE to give you something that you don't really need.

I said it before and i'll say it again, if you want cure V play whm. RDM can't solve everything. if ANY other mage jobs should get a better cure SCH gets it since they are already better healers then rdm anyway.

RDM/NIN are masters are soloing, a whm/nin and a sch/nin cann't accoplish what a rdm/nin could. but RDMS just want it all i guess. healing, enfeebling, soloing, i guess next you'll want AM2s and tier 5 spells.

Hey, stop trolling this is a serious thread i want RDM to get cure V. Also RDM will probably get Stone/WaterV by the time we're 99.

[Vortex]

Hey, stop trolling this is a serious thread i want RDM to get cure V. Also RDM will probably get Stone/WaterV by the time we're 99.


So does every damn RDM, because they want to be broken again, you don't need Cure V, period. maybe you do need something stronger then cure 4 but 5 is asking for to much, it's like asking to give whm a A+ enfeebling skill rating as well as a natural fast cast. RDM has it's time to shine for years, time to move on. it is still a fun job and can solo very well, refresh 2 is very good when abyssea is not involved, espcially with af3, why do you want rdm to be over powerd?

[Neisan_Quetz]

Cure V without solace, emp+2 body and emp+2 pants (they can nerf the fixed enmity on it if they really want) isn't going to suddenly make Rdm the best healer again.

If you haven't noticed we're not the best soloist anymore, if you can nuke solo it, Blm and Sch are better now (Blu as well with Regurg spam and other spells), if you can melee solo, Nin and Dnc and Blu at minimum are better now.

Sch should never get any cure spell before Rdm, they never have. Ever. Sch learns cure spells at the same rate as Pld.

[Swords]

People forget part of the reason we became such prominent healers wasn't because we could cast cure IV over and over again with minimal downtime, but we also had a secondary spell called Cure III to rotate with which had a solid impact on hp in it's day and age. However with HP pools growing, Cure III is FAR from sufficient enough to do much if any good for the group. That leaves us with Cure IV, being THE ONLY decent healing spell we have access too at these later levels, but recast timers and cooldown leaves us even more lacking besides just raw cure power. However the raw power of Cure V is a little much, and chances are we would revisit the pink bird era again (Essentially Cure V/IV now would be our Cure IV/III from back then) which most of us want to try and avoid.

Instead of Cure V I think something along the lines of new type of healing spell would work in our favor. Similar to how WHM's got Cura as a secondary Curga II/III, I don't see why RDM couldn't get something like "Heal" standing in as another Cure IV equivilant so RDM at least has something else to heal with when one is cooling down and it would effectively double our curing capacity.

[Stylin]

Cure V without solace, emp+2 body and emp+2 pants (they can nerf the fixed enmity on it if they really want) isn't going to suddenly make Rdm the best healer again.

Somehow I doubt WHM's pants make that much of a difference compared to RDM's Refresh 2. The only time I can honestly say it's helped is when I'm bouncing between Cure 5 and 6 or dropping an AoE heal.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Hey, stop trolling this is a serious thread i want RDM to get cure V. Also RDM will probably get Stone/WaterV by the time we're 99.

They wont get tier V, SE will not give 2 tier V spells. It'd be all or none. Personally it will be none. RDM is capable but not better.

Tier IV, while BLM gets V and it should be tier V Cure when WHM get's Cure VI.



So does every damn RDM, because they want to be broken again, you don't need Cure V, period. maybe you do need something stronger then cure 4 but 5 is asking for to much, it's like asking to give whm a A+ enfeebling skill rating as well as a natural fast cast. RDM has it's time to shine for years, time to move on. it is still a fun job and can solo very well, refresh 2 is very good when abyssea is not involved, espcially with af3, why do you want rdm to be over powerd?

Yes, they do need V. It needs to be gimped in more than just the Enmity- but RDM needs Tier V. Spell progression doesnt go I, II, III, IV, IV.5 and V it goes I, II, II, IV and V.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Somehow I doubt WHM's pants make that much of a difference compared to RDM's Refresh 2. The only time I can honestly say it's helped is when I'm bouncing between Cure 5 and 6 or dropping an AoE heal.


It's not the only thing but it certainly helps. I left a bunch of other stuff out of that extremely small list.

It's not the difference between pants and refresh 2 but either sublimation + arts or convert and refresh 1, unless all your whms run around /blm (I'll give you /thf but even then with proper auto gear and depending on targets mp still isn't a problem for whm as much anymore).

[Hyrist]

I find it funny, but I'm of the same opinion of Pink Mages as some people are against Melee. But mine is a bit more grounded in fact.

RDM does not need to be WHM -1, as it will simply be shoved into the healer role instead of any other role at all, and we saw the consequences to WHM when that was done in the ToAU era. The player base WILL go with the absolute minimum healing required to any event if it's not forced on them to take more than one individual. (which usually means inviting a Hybrid.) I'd rather our healing load take the hit and our Enfeebeling/Enhancing get the buffs they need.

But I do understand there's a base of players that like playing Pink Mage and I am in support for global improvements for RDM across the board.

So, I'm going to request an alternative to Cure V that does not give RDM the type of spike curing that rivals WHM's spike healing. Giving RDM more capabilities in healing, but keeping the emphasis instead on enfeebles and enhancement, rather than give them the capabilities to flat out replace WHM in any instance that's not HNMs.

[Ophannus]

Cure 4 is unacceptably weak for any real event. What makes events hard is the mob's AoE rate/potency vs # of WHMs present. To balance healing why not make RDM excel at single target healing with Fast Cast Cure 4/5's and let WHM handle AoE the same way SCH excels at single target nukes and BLM has AoEs

[Neisan_Quetz]

Replace whm in not hnm events? Rdm can't even do that... There is little point to have a healer notWhm as it stands right now, no matter what you're doing. And if you don't need a Whm to heal, you're probably fighting something a nin/dnc or dnc/nin could solo.

[SpankWustler]

Fix Cure VI, give other jobs Cure V, everyone wins, whm walks out the deal better, but everyone wins.

This.

One job's cure progression has gone into a strange and dark place that costs 227 MP for <1500 HP healed, and the rest have stopped cold. Whatever the Development Bros are trying to do, "new cures will be worse than Cure V or not exist" doesn't seem like the ideal way to accomplish it.

[Shiyo]

Replace whm in not hnm events? Rdm can't even do that... There is little point to have a healer notWhm as it stands right now, no matter what you're doing. And if you don't need a Whm to heal, you're probably fighting something a nin/dnc or dnc/nin could solo.

I can heal solo heal a single DD party perfectly fine on SCH on the new T3 zilart/jueno VW NM's. Just need WHM's for the actual tank party(nothing new, this is how it was at 75 too), and my regain/libra(very underrated and useful ability)/phalanx(fully merited/geared phalanx is equal to about 11% PDT when things hit for 450+ ^_^)/embrava when applicable is more useful and more damage than replacing me with a WHM. Especially since I also provide unique SCH procs. RDM however, is a completely useless job that you get a mule to refresh2 the whm's in the main party then stop using it until it needs to refresh2 again.

50% cure potency, +15% weather cure bonus, -50 enmity, and rapture. My cure4's heal for 1k with rapture up, the same amount my 50% cure potency fully geared WHM mules cure5's heal for. I still need another cure4.5 though, having to rely on rapture cure3 if cure4 is ever down is horrible horrible horrible.

[Neisan_Quetz]

So you healed as well as a Whm who doesn't know what solace is on single target cures while using strats and costing more mp per cure, congratulations?

I'm sure your Modus Veritas being a proc is very useful too - ohwait, no it isn't.

So basically you bring the healing of a shitty whm and the nuking of a shitty blm, and are useful for your 2 hour... it sounds like your Sch should be shelved right next to the Rdm and be useful as a mule.

[Ophannus]

Why should WHM be the best healer by a HUGE margin? That's like not giving any other melee WS past 200 skill except WAR. Saying that you shouldn't give other mages higher healing spells doesn't make sense since they're giving WHM higher level enfeebling spells which entrenches on RDM's territory. RDM has higher enfeebling and enhancing that WHM yet WHM has better Regens and practically the same enfeebles. Why should one job monopolize endgame healing? That's like saying one job should monopolize damage dealing.

[Shiyo]

So you healed as well as a Whm who doesn't know what solace is on single target cures while using strats and costing more mp per cure, congratulations?

I'm sure your Modus Veritas being a proc is very useful too - ohwait, no it isn't.

So basically you bring the healing of a shitty whm and the nuking of a shitty blm, and are useful for your 2 hour... it sounds like your Sch should be shelved right next to the Rdm and be useful as a mule.
Do you read what you type? Srsly.

I do not ever run out of MP, I can keep DD's alive as well as a WHM, while also providing things a WHM CANNOT provide to increase their dmg/survivability, modus veritas procced like 5 NM's for me last night,helix spells are procs(I procced like 8+ helixes last night), and my LS loves embrava durning "oh sht" moments. A 3rd WHM is a complete waste of a slot, especially on some of the harder NM's where you need as much damage as possible within 30 minutes. We almost timed out once, and only had a few minutes to spare the other times a lot, replacing me with a WHM is a horrible idea. Libra also is very useful for DD's to know where they are on the hate list.

I also do tons of damage and provide procs a BLM can't provide no matter what, if I'm not healing and nuking instead I give all black mages 15% additional damage + klimaform....... Clearly, replacing me with a BLM is better than giving 4-5 BLM's +15% dmg

SCH is amazing, you're just probably bad at it (and this game) :(

[Neisan_Quetz]

Cureskin, Enhanced barspells, Sacrosanctity, you laughed at phalanx sarcastically in another thread yet hail its benefits here? Seriously make up your mind.

If damage mitigation was a concern you wouldn't bring Sch, you'd have Smn and Daurdabla Brd (who is also going to give the melee damage and damage mitigation without having to 2hour).


Posted by you in General forum:


They should fix modus veritas being a proc, when it has 100% chance to be resisted <_<

Posted by you just now:


modus veritas procced like 5 NM's for me last night

Oh really.


Actually the complete opposite, RDM/SCH is better than SCH in every way because the only things that matter are refresh2, haste and debuffs.

In zerg situations, sure, SCH is superior, but what exactly do we zerg besides AV/DL again?


Huh.


That's exactly how RDM and SCH healing works, we can mainheal stuff that.....evasion jobs can pretty much solo or can solo. Yay?

Wow, your own words again.


-37 damage is the difference between life and death when NM's are hitting for 400+ damage and WSing for 1k+.

And just now


phalanx(fully merited/geared phalanx is equal to about 11% PDT when things hit for 450+ ^_^)


Seriously, get out.


Oh and fucking lol at Libra, you might as well say you bring Deodorize to the party because they're about as useful.

[Ciecle]

oh for fks sakes.

2009: RDM>> WE DO NOT WANT TO BE MAIN HEALERS! PLEASE FIX RDM SO WE DONT HAVE TO!
2010: SE>> Ok fine. We'll increase the level cap and give everyone more HP so you don't have to main heal anymore.
2011: RDM>> WE WANT TO BE MAIN HEALERS AGAIN! WTF SE! GIVE US CURE V! WE ALSO WANT TO MELEE WHILE CURING SO GIVE US THAT TOO!
2012: SE>> We give up... There is no pleasing you crybabies.

[MDenham]

Possibly give WHM Erase II that removes multiple status ailmentsAs long as it's not Sleep, Silence, Petrify, or Amnesia, WHM already has this.

It's called Sacrifice.

[Shiyo]

Someone is mad.

[Yukichibi]

50% cure potency, +15% weather cure bonus, -50 enmity, and rapture. My cure4's heal for 1k with rapture up, the same amount my 50% cure potency fully geared WHM mules cure5's heal for. I still need another cure4.5 though, having to rely on rapture cure3 if cure4 is ever down is horrible horrible horrible.

I am very curious how you achieve those (in bold), especially at the same time.
I am at 34% cure potency as SCH, i can have 2% up from the TOM staff upgrade, and a Fylgja Torque +1. (i don't count Twilight Cape in the cure potency)
I don't use MKE head since i rapture (like you i guess).
Do you happen to already have a Heka's Kalasiris (http://www.ffxiah.com/item/11867/hekas-kalasiris) ?

Sorry for being a little off topic.

For RDM, in any game, it was a versatile character, but that fall under in the end of the game spellcasting wise.
I know FFXI is not like other FF, but just look FFI, RDM don't have acess to high lvl spells, and cast less spells by day than black or white mage.
In FFV, RDM can only cast lvl 3 out of 6 spell level and the only advantage from a white/black mage is his capacity to equip swords.
He unlocks double cast (or dual cast), which can be compared to Spontaneity since you can cast 2 spells back to back (one instant and the other with nomal casting time), the timer should be 3 mn though.

So i think RDM should not have Cure V.

[Ahrana]

Do you read what you type? Srsly.

I do not ever run out of MP, I can keep DD's alive as well as a WHM, while also providing things a WHM CANNOT provide to increase their dmg/survivability, modus veritas procced like 5 NM's for me last night,helix spells are procs(I procced like 8+ helixes last night), and my LS loves embrava durning "oh sht" moments. A 3rd WHM is a complete waste of a slot, especially on some of the harder NM's where you need as much damage as possible within 30 minutes. We almost timed out once, and only had a few minutes to spare the other times a lot, replacing me with a WHM is a horrible idea. Libra also is very useful for DD's to know where they are on the hate list.

I also do tons of damage and provide procs a BLM can't provide no matter what, if I'm not healing and nuking instead I give all black mages 15% additional damage + klimaform....... Clearly, replacing me with a BLM is better than giving 4-5 BLM's +15% dmg

SCH is amazing, you're just probably bad at it (and this game) :(

I'm not going to say that you're making things up, but I will say that your voidwatch experiences are much different then mine.

[Shiyo]

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/232801<- Cure potency/enmity down set.

@Person above me

Well, SCH is a very complex job with a high skill cap and ceiling.

[Economizer]

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/232801 <- Cure potency/enmity down set.

Don't forget that the Obi/Twilight Cape bonus is multiplicative instead of additive with Cure Potency, meaning that it gives a 22.5% (I forget if it rounds) bonus instead of just 15%.

[Shiyo]

Don't forget that the Obi/Twilight Cape bonus is multiplicative instead of additive with Cure Potency, meaning that it gives a 22.5% (I forget if it rounds) bonus instead of just 15%.

Nice, even better, did not know that ^-^

[MDenham]

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/232801<- Cure potency/enmity down set.You might want to fix that it says you're wearing two Heka's Kalasiris at the same time.

[saevel]

As long as it's not Sleep, Silence, Petrify, or Amnesia, WHM already has this.

It's called Sacrifice.

That only works with the Misery JA up and requires the WHM be standing NEXT to the tanks, aka within monster aoe range.

Plus we're trying to get rid of status ailments, putting them on yourself is a very BAD idea.

[saevel]

Comment deleted by Moderator.

Don't respond to her. Click her name then click "add to ignore list". *poof* problem solved. [Comment deleted by Moderator]

[Economizer]

That only works with the Misery JA up and requires the WHM be standing NEXT to the tanks, aka within monster aoe range.

Plus we're trying to get rid of status ailments, putting them on yourself is a very BAD idea.

Actually, you are thinking of Esuna, Sacrifice can be used at range, and requires that Solace be up for it to absorb multiple things, or things Erase can remove.

Esuna requires Misery to be up when using it if you want to remove anything nasty too, but even then it only removes a maximum of 2 things. It is probably the only good use for Misery, since Cura requires you to take damage while it is up, and Auspice's accuracy boost get massively nerfed.

And while this is the Red Mage subforum, I wonder why Scholar hasn't gotten Sacrifice (under Add.White) yet, since it gets many of the other White Mage enfeeble removal, and is single target (like the rest of Scholar's spells). Unless SE plans on going to Samurai route and giving the Afflatus JA out but nerfed when your main isn't White Mage, it wouldn't really allow Scholar to outdo White Mage that much either (and even if they did, the could nerf it from seven to two ailments while under Solace, like they'd nerf the cureskin).

Anyways, putting debuffs on yourself isn't a bad idea if you have Esuna access (and the debuff isn't Paralyze), or if the debuffs are something along the lines of Attack Down or Accuracy Down, or STR down. But Sacrifice is used so little in the field that even very competent White Mages will forget that they have it.

[MDenham]

Anyways, putting debuffs on yourself isn't a bad idea if you have Esuna access (and the debuff isn't Paralyze), or if the debuffs are something along the lines of Attack Down or Accuracy Down, or STR down. But Sacrifice is used so little in the field that even very competent White Mages will forget that they have it.Yeah, the main reason I mentioned it was because I was on a Durinn run yesterday that involved four or five Dvalinn fights.

One cast of Sacrifice beats the hell out of having to spam Erase.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I'm counting roughly -68% Cast Time on cures from Sch, -80% for Whm (49% Cure Potency and -38 enmity) and ~-76% (LA 50% Cure potency -50 Enmity) for Rdm, can anyone point out anything I've missed?

On Topic: While it's pretty clear SE wants a main healing job it's pretty ridiculous when no one else is even in the league behind the main healer. For serious events it isn't a case of 'Whm not on, get someone else who can help cure' it's 'Whm not on, someone switch to Whm' (or be like someone else here, and be gimp at curing/damage/benefiting your group outside of procs/2 hour).

[Economizer]

Yeah, the main reason I mentioned it was because I was on a Durinn run yesterday that involved four or five Dvalinn fights.

That's actually pretty funny, because the last time that I can specifically remember casting Sacrifice aside from messing around or casting random spells on someone in my party to toy around was on those mobs. It wasn't anytime recent either.

[Vortex]

Don't respond to her. Click her name then click "add to ignore list". *poof* problem solved.

Problem should considering it even got edited because obviously they can't handle facts being told about them, when in doubt, whine to a mod,

actually, i think i know who it was, this one has done it before. gotta love when people get butthurt.



I wonder why Scholar hasn't gotten Sacrifice (under Add.White) yet, since it gets many of the other White Mage enfeeble removal, and is single target (like the rest of Scholar's spells).

Because sacrifice is a exclusive WHM spell, common sense would tell you they won't give exclusive spells to other jobs that easily, especially something as good as sacrafice.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I'm counting roughly -68% Cast Time on cures from Sch, -80% for Whm (49% Cure Potency and -38 enmity) and ~-76% (LA 50% Cure potency -50 Enmity) for Rdm, can anyone point out anything I've missed?

On Topic: While it's pretty clear SE wants a main healing job it's pretty ridiculous when no one else is even in the league behind the main healer. For serious events it isn't a case of 'Whm not on, get someone else who can help cure' it's 'Whm not on, someone switch to Whm' (or be like someone else here, and be gimp at curing/damage/benefiting your group outside of procs/2 hour).

I got RDM 79% without /SCH

[Neisan_Quetz]

Oh wow, I forgot staff when I'm making one lol, so all 3 jobs near cap on -cast time then.

[saevel]

Problem should considering it even got edited because obviously they can't handle facts being told about them, when in doubt, whine to a mod,

actually, i think i know who it was, this one has done it before. gotta love when people get butthurt.




Because sacrifice is a exclusive WHM spell, common sense would tell you they won't give exclusive spells to other jobs that easily, especially something as good as sacrafice.

Is something up with the mods? They've been rather active and a bit draconian lately. Or are people just hitting report like crazy now?

[Neisan_Quetz]

It just needs to look valid enough for them to edit from what I can tell, they seem to just look at the report and look for key words then dole out adjustments.

i.e post calls someone a retard/idiot, someone reports it for personal attack/unnecessary insulting language, post gets moderated.

[saevel]

Hmm ok. Guess we gotta tip toe around words then. Don't want to piss the mods off as their just doing their jobs, but also don't want to feel like I gotta play with kiddy gloves.

Oh well still gotta love the Ignore feature. It's like instant troll-be-gone.

[CapriciousOne]

People forget part of the reason we became such prominent healers wasn't because we could cast cure IV over and over again with minimal downtime, but we also had a secondary spell called Cure III to rotate with which had a solid impact on hp in it's day and age. However with HP pools growing, Cure III is FAR from sufficient enough to do much if any good for the group. That leaves us with Cure IV, being THE ONLY decent healing spell we have access too at these later levels, but recast timers and cooldown leaves us even more lacking besides just raw cure power. However the raw power of Cure V is a little much, and chances are we would revisit the pink bird era again (Essentially Cure V/IV now would be our Cure IV/III from back then) which most of us want to try and avoid.

Instead of Cure V I think something along the lines of new type of healing spell would work in our favor. Similar to how WHM's got Cura as a secondary Curga II/III, I don't see why RDM couldn't get something like "Heal" standing in as another Cure IV equivilant so RDM at least has something else to heal with when one is cooling down and it would effectively double our curing capacity.

I don't know why everybody keep b@#$%ing about Cure V being to powerful for a RDM or even SCH, that is complete bull. I solo alot as a RDM/DNC because the Cure III/IV combo together only cures about 550ish hp at best but to be fair my healing skill isn't capped. Cure IV + Curing Waltz III cures about 750HP on self per attack round. WHM is like an A in healing while RDM is only like C or so and dont have any job ability like Addendum White like SCH to boost it any. So even with gear enhancements to cure potency and boosts to MND stat there is relatively low chance to heal more hp per cast than a WHM no matter how much you try to make a point that we will.

In addition the mobs past level 85 are hitting harder and faster requiring more healing power to stay alive especially nm. The combination of Cure V and Cure 4 will just barely put us at the 1000hp point at best short of gear and other bonus mods. With all the Cure potency stuff WHM gets what the F are you whm crying about? I swear i saw a screenshot some where of a whm curing for over 1500hp(cant remember where) so how is that going to make us a better healer? In any case Cure IV + Curing waltz III = 700~750 of my ~1400 hp where Cure V + Cure IV or Cure V+ CWIII would be about 1000/1400 and a WHM can basically cure to full health with one Cure V + Divine Seal, so am i missing something or are you WHM just idiots?

[Swords]

On Topic: While it's pretty clear SE wants a main healing job it's pretty ridiculous when no one else is even in the league behind the main healer. For serious events it isn't a case of 'Whm not on, get someone else who can help cure' it's 'Whm not on, someone switch to Whm' (or be like someone else here, and be gimp at curing/damage/benefiting your group outside of procs/2 hour).

I don't know, give BLU a /WHM or /RDM (excluded /SCH because Cure IV is 55) it can become a pretty competitive healer coupled with it's own BLU based healing/-na spells.



Because sacrifice is a exclusive WHM spell, common sense would tell you they won't give exclusive spells to other jobs that easily, especially something as good as sacrafice.

Ironic you say that, SE seemed more than happy to whore out anything the least bit exclusive RDM had to the other jobs over the years, most everything significant that was kept was fleshed out to other jobs when the level cap rose.

Sorry if I sound a bit jaded, I haven't had my caffeine this morning.

[CapriciousOne]

I find it funny, but I'm of the same opinion of Pink Mages as some people are against Melee. But mine is a bit more grounded in fact.

RDM does not need to be WHM -1, as it will simply be shoved into the healer role instead of any other role at all, and we saw the consequences to WHM when that was done in the ToAU era. The player base WILL go with the absolute minimum healing required to any event if it's not forced on them to take more than one individual. (which usually means inviting a Hybrid.) I'd rather our healing load take the hit and our Enfeebeling/Enhancing get the buffs they need.

But I do understand there's a base of players that like playing Pink Mage and I am in support for global improvements for RDM across the board.

So, I'm going to request an alternative to Cure V that does not give RDM the type of spike curing that rivals WHM's spike healing. Giving RDM more capabilities in healing, but keeping the emphasis instead on enfeebles and enhancement, rather than give them the capabilities to flat out replace WHM in any instance that's not HNMs.

If we were say willing to give WHM Refresh I natively in exchange for Cure V would that solve this problem?

[Neisan_Quetz]

Competitive... where exactly? None of their native buffs can be fulltimed on a party so that leaves /whm buffs, Their Fast Cast is still gimped and they can't access Totm staves so they're probably the slowest healer in the lot. Their main benefit is having a Cure 4 variant and a 4.5 variant along with better than /whm worse than whm main AoE heals.

And if that's the game's current next best healer then yes that's some pretty bad straits.

[CapriciousOne]

oh for fks sakes.

2009: RDM>> WE DO NOT WANT TO BE MAIN HEALERS! PLEASE FIX RDM SO WE DONT HAVE TO!
2010: SE>> Ok fine. We'll increase the level cap and give everyone more HP so you don't have to main heal anymore.
2011: RDM>> WE WANT TO BE MAIN HEALERS AGAIN! WTF SE! GIVE US CURE V! WE ALSO WANT TO MELEE WHILE CURING SO GIVE US THAT TOO!
2012: SE>> We give up... There is no pleasing you crybabies.

ok point well made, LMFAO. I guess the only way to reconcile the differences is that we dont want to main heal but like to have the OPTION of main healing, LOL.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Even at 75 cap whm could cap the then cast time cap, and after getting solace + /Sch whm was still the best healer in the game, it just wasn't seen as a large margin as it is now (Did I mention they still had the best barspells/Shell in the game and still do? And it's just gotten even better for them with the cap raises). This isn't 2006 anymore, brute force main healing isn't effective on harder fights, and anyone who thinks a mage job with native skill and spells for said skill should be stuck with the same tier spell for 47 levels... I just don't know what to tell you.

[Kimble]

Doesnt RDM has almost has many "unique" procs as sch? Sch has Helix (8 procs) and RDM has Merit spells ( Bilnd II, Bio III, Dia III, Para II, Slow II)

Personally, I'm thinking of dropping SCH from the ally for new voidwatch (zilart specifically) to give its spot to another DD.

[Swords]

In addition the mobs past level 85 are hitting harder and faster requiring more healing power to stay alive especially nm. The combination of Cure V and Cure 4 will just barely put us at the 1000hp point at best short of gear and other bonus mods. With all the Cure potency stuff WHM gets what the F are you whm crying about? I swear i saw a screenshot some where of a whm curing for over 1500hp(cant remember where) so how is that going to make us a better healer? In any case Cure IV + Curing waltz III = 700~750 of my ~1400 hp where Cure V + Cure IV or Cure V+ CWIII would be about 1000/1400 and a WHM can basically cure to full health with one Cure V + Divine Seal, so am i missing something or are you WHM just idiots?

That's pretty much exactly what SE fears, and yes I know there are limitations to these spells and there are all the bonuses SE gave WHM that should prevent the mainstream from going back to the old ToAU experience, however being able to cure for 1/3-1/2 a players HP in a single volley was enough for players back at 75, and if players can get away with the least amount of support they will take the one with the most tools to get by with minimal downtime and that's still RDM. (Not to mention RDM/WHM could DS + Cure V as well for about as good)

Anyways that aside, HP pools are only a few hundred hp bigger than they were at 75 (Excluding Abyssea since 98% of the game does not have absurd hp bonuses), and there isn't much content aside from Voidwatch and a few Abyssea mobs that would pose a threat to one's hp significant enough our Cures can't really handle (glaring exceptions aside). But I doubt SE is ever going to come through with Cure V until they bring the game up to a standard where most endgame content can pose a threat and Zerg tactics can't be abused.

That's just personal opinion though.

[Siiri]

The whole argument that White mage has more healing skill is a joke, because currently healing skill matters very little in the cure formula. With the advent of the cure staff with potency +23%, which any serious healer should have, plus all the new cure potency gear that came out in the past year, the cure potency argument is invalid as well. Cure potency caps at 50%, so the fact that white mage could get 60% or whatever and RDM only 50% is fairly pointless as well.

The reason white mages and SE apparently think Cure V may imbalance the healing jobs, is white mage was marginalized to a degree at 75. I been playing since 2005 and I remember well things like the airship fight and our white mage being told they weren't allowed to come because only red mage could heal that fight. (The white mage wasn't me, I only had black mage at that time. ) That advanced to my limbus shell saying white mages were never allowed in limbus except for bosses, on to Salvage where it was red mage only as well. Of course experience was the most egregious example of white mage being excluded.

SE attempted to rectify this with the solace and misery adjustments, but even at 75 white mage was a second class healer in some people's opinion. So just dumping Cure V on red mage and scholar, who bring mp longetivity and high tier nukes compared to a white mage, may make the balance skew away from the job whose only purpose is to heal. Will the cureskin update, the advanced bar spells, the curagas, etc make it so white mage is still the preferred healer if scholar and red mage get Cure V. I am not sure, maybe, but right now its a chance a lot of white mages, and apparently SE for now don't' want to take.

[saevel]

As I've said before, SE needs to make WHM better before giving RDM / SCH Cure V. It's not about the "next tier" its that the difference from IV to V is immense, it's so big a jump that it has everyone demanding it. And while I can see SCH getting it under Apendum White (They get same tier nukes as BLM under AB), I just can't see SE giving RDM Cure V in it's current form.

I can see SE giving RDM alternative curing methods, Regen's come to mind only cause our gear and abilities focus on Enhancing and Enfeebling Magic vs Healing / Elemental Magic. I would much rather a Spell that restores the same HP potential as a Cure V, possibly more with gear factored, but over a 30s period of time. Make it cheap and fast casting, we could cast it on someone then throw out a Cure IV to ensure no premature death. Having experienced the 50+ hp/tick on Embrava, it's ridiculously nice.

[cidbahamut]

White Mage is arguably the most OP job in the game and you want to make it better as a prerequisite to throwing a bone to other jobs? I don't even know how to respond to that.

[Economizer]

Personally, I'm thinking of dropping SCH from the ally for new voidwatch (zilart specifically) to give its spot to another DD.

If you have four Black Mages, a Scholar essentially makes your party have five (actually, a bit more, but I'm rounding down), in addition to having whatever powers the Scholar has, due to weather spells. With the next cap adjustment, this will be less significant, since Black Mages can sub Scholar for all but three weather spells once we hit 99 cap, (while having faster recast timers for Stun over subbing Red Mage, at the cost of some healing ability).

More to everyone, if someone is willing to get rid of a Scholar in an alliance setting for another melee job despite its mixed ability to heal, nuke, and massively buff your casters, what will happen to a job that only heals when other jobs can come extremely close to it or even match it, while being able to do other things? And don't tell me that magic defense will save the day, because at full merits, Shell and Shellra have at best a 3% gap (Phalanx could cover that easily), and the majority of a Barspell can be made up between either an Accessioned Barspell or subbing White Mage for Barspellra.

Siiri, your entire post is pretty coherant and logical, and seems to generally capture the sense of what White Mages are worried about.


The whole argument that White mage has more healing skill is a joke, because currently healing skill matters very little in the cure formula. With the advent of the cure staff with potency +23%, which any serious healer should have, plus all the new cure potency gear that came out in the past year, the cure potency argument is invalid as well. Cure potency caps at 50%, so the fact that white mage could get 60% or whatever and RDM only 50% is fairly pointless as well.

Cureskin is a joke when Scholars have light weather - it comes uncomfortably close, and if Scholars ever get double weather without single weather being sub usable, the gap would be so big that a Scholar with Cure V would be able to laugh in the face of White Mages as they got into parties.

But even if Red Mage were given the same amount, 25-35% cureskin isn't going to make people choose White Mage over Red Mage, like Siiri points out.


The reason white mages and SE apparently think Cure V may imbalance the healing jobs, is white mage was marginalized to a degree at 75. I been playing since 2005 and I remember well things like the airship fight and our white mage being told they weren't allowed to come because only red mage could heal that fight. (The white mage wasn't me, I only had black mage at that time. ) That advanced to my limbus shell saying white mages were never allowed in limbus except for bosses, on to Salvage where it was red mage only as well. Of course experience was the most egregious example of white mage being excluded.

Another example of no matter how hard the content, players will pull this if they can get away with it. This is the cause of many of the problems we have.


SE attempted to rectify this with the solace and misery adjustments, but even at 75 white mage was a second class healer in some people's opinion. So just dumping Cure V on red mage and scholar, who bring mp longetivity and high tier nukes compared to a white mage, may make the balance skew away from the job whose only purpose is to heal. Will the cureskin update, the advanced bar spells, the curagas, etc make it so white mage is still the preferred healer if scholar and red mage get Cure V. I am not sure, maybe, but right now its a chance a lot of white mages, and apparently SE for now don't' want to take.

I've been straight up told on more then one occasion that if Red Mage gets Cure V, Red Mages would be the preferred healers.

Maybe Red Mage desperately needs more healing power, but putting White Mage into a worse position then Red Mage is right now to do it is not the solution. That this will happen is a very big risk, and no plan to date that I've seen for it has really shown me solid numbers while coming from someone who is actually informed about healing. I'm not convinced that bigger enmity generation for other jobs will mean much, I haven't seen a plan to make Cure VI be not terrible enough to make up for it, and I've heard completely bad ideas in general, like "not taking the VIT modifier into account for other jobs!" When you deal with people that think that VIT makes a huge difference on a good Cure V build, it becomes harder to respect their position, even when it might be very logical.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Cureskin isn't the only thing going for Whm making it the only worthwhile healer to bring anywhere on not fodder content. It just adds to it.

Anyone who still thinks Cure V is all that separates Whm from Rdm in healing potential needs to step out of 2006.

@Above with Rapture yes Sch will outcure but otherwise ignoring cureskin is pretty what. That is an additional 400 hp on top of the cured amount, even with aurastorm + Twilight cape Sch still can't match that.

[Ophannus]

SE wants to give SCH more regen potential as they get regen enhancing gear and the spells earlier than any job. Saying WHM should be the only class with Cure5/6 and that any other class getting it would reduce WHM's spot as top healer is like saying giving weapon skills past level 48 to other melee reduces WAR's spot as top damage dealer. Why can we have 8-10 damage dealers, 2-3 tank jobs 2-3 magic damage nukers but only 1 healer?

Why doesn't WHM have to compete with other jobs for a spot like WAR DRK RNG DRG SAM MNK THF BST NIN PUP have at a DD slot?

"Because WHm was designed only to heal" -- If that was the case lets strip them of all their enhancing spells and enfeebling spells because RDM is obviously better at that than WHM yet WHM enhances way better and has gear/merits to enhanes their regens/bars and they have every white magic enfeeble we do except merits. That's like giving SCH PLD RDM Cure V and all Curagas and Cure Skin but making Cure VI WHM merit only.

[Neisan_Quetz]

The damage without Auspice/Misery Bonus still sucks but SE still fixed Holy's range and gave them Holy II, and is working on higher tier Banishes.

Whm is a better enhancer (in terms of actually being able to, you know, give buffs to the pt) than Rdm bar Phalanx II as well... and has higher base combat skill + Doesn't need Empyrean to access it (Not that emps are hard, But having your best WS untethered to 1 weapon unless said weapon enhances said WS is a boon. 95 Relic is better than any other weapon for pure damage for them anyway). The only thing they're missing is damaging nukes.

[Hyrist]

Anyone who still thinks Cure V is all that separates Whm from Rdm in healing potential needs to step out of 2006.
.

You're ignoring the point.

Let me bold it for you.

It is not about the high end of the curing ability so much as the low end of the curing requirement. Player will go with the bottom of the barrel cure if they can afford to get away with it, and WHM lacks the other utilities to make it a compedetive pick against RDM and SCH unless RDM and SCH are more or less incapable of filling the role.

The Playerbase WILL force all support roles onto one job if they feel they can get away with it. (Back to RDM+BRD days.) Instead of distributing their functions into a more varied set-up.

If RDM or SCH is capable of taking the healing load, goodbye WHM. It dosen't matter if the WHM is a better healer or not, another mage just just has to be passable to bump WHM off. It currently does not have enough of a draw into other functions to make it a contender outside "Omg this mob's tough we need a whm!"

[Shiyo]

White Mage is arguably the most OP job in the game and you want to make it better as a prerequisite to throwing a bone to other jobs? I don't even know how to respond to that.

He has literally no idea what he's talking about, it's pretty funny.

[Shiyo]

Personally, I'm thinking of dropping SCH from the ally for new voidwatch (zilart specifically) to give its spot to another DD.

Should probably not invite SCH's who are horrible at FFXI.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

You're ignoring the point.

Let me bold it for you.

It is not about the high end of the curing ability so much as the low end of the curing requirement. Player will go with the bottom of the barrel cure if they can afford to get away with it, and WHM lacks the other utilities to make it a compedetive pick against RDM and SCH unless RDM and SCH are more or less incapable of filling the role.

The Playerbase WILL force all support roles onto one job if they feel they can get away with it. (Back to RDM+BRD days.) Instead of distributing their functions into a more varied set-up.

If RDM or SCH is capable of taking the healing load, goodbye WHM. It dosen't matter if the WHM is a better healer or not, another mage just just has to be passable to bump WHM off. It currently does not have enough of a draw into other functions to make it a contender outside "Omg this mob's tough we need a whm!"

So every other role can be filled by multiple jobs, but it's not okay for other jobs that have healing skill to be capable of actually erm... healing?

Sorry that's bull.

[cidbahamut]

So every other role can be filled by multiple jobs, but it's not okay for other jobs that have healing skill to be capable of actually erm... healing?

Sorry that's bull.
Not to mention poor game design.

[Neisan_Quetz]

You're ignoring the point.

Let me bold it for you.

It is not about the high end of the curing ability so much as the low end of the curing requirement. Player will go with the bottom of the barrel cure if they can afford to get away with it, and WHM lacks the other utilities to make it a compedetive pick against RDM and SCH unless RDM and SCH are more or less incapable of filling the role.

The Playerbase WILL force all support roles onto one job if they feel they can get away with it. (Back to RDM+BRD days.) Instead of distributing their functions into a more varied set-up.

If RDM or SCH is capable of taking the healing load, goodbye WHM. It dosen't matter if the WHM is a better healer or not, another mage just just has to be passable to bump WHM off. It currently does not have enough of a draw into other functions to make it a contender outside "Omg this mob's tough we need a whm!"

Lacks what other utilities? Mp conservation? Nope, Enfeebling - has all of ours bar merit spells, Enhancing bar 1 merit spell - Whm still ahead, meleeing? Whm had Rdm stomped pre temper, and Melee mages are not viable on hard content. That leaves you with Refresh 2 (unneeded if you brought decent support) and Saboteur T2 Spells (and nuking, but if you cared about magic damage you'd bring Blm/Sch/Even Blu is better in terms of mp/damage ratio also for extremely low hate).

[Motenten]

Warning: Long post, lots of math.

Formula for cures:
h = floor(((3*(MND + Healing Magic/5) + VIT) / x) + y) + Equipment bonus) + Day bonus + Weather bonus)

Separating out primary aspects:

((3*(MND + Healing Magic/5) + VIT) / x) + y

Rename for clarity:

((3*(MND + Healing Magic/5) + VIT) / scale) + offset

And will consider the stat aspect as a single entity:

RawStat = (3*(MND + Healing Magic/5) + VIT)

So you can think of the formula as

RawStat / scale + offset

Just for reference, minimum HP healed:
Cure 1: 10
Cure 2: 60
Cure 3: 130
Cure 4: 270
Cure 5: 450


Now the important bits:

Initial offset:
Cure 1: -10
Cure 2: 20
Cure 3: 70
Cure 4: 165
Cure 5: 330

Initial scale:
Cure 1: 2
Cure 2: 2
Cure 3: 2
Cure 4: 4/3
Cure 5: 4/3

"Soft cap":
Cure 1: 20
Cure 2: 75
Cure 3: 160
Cure 4: 330
Cure 5: 570

RawStat required for soft cap:
Cure 1: 60
Cure 2: 110
Cure 3: 180
Cure 4: 220
Cure 5: 320


After the soft cap, scale increases to 4 for all except Cure V, which drops to 1. Higher scale means less gain per mnd/vit/healing skill.

While wiki lists the soft cap in terms of total healed, it would make more sense mathematically to list in terms of raw combined stat: (3*(MND + Healing Magic/5) + VIT). When RawStat reaches a certain value, that RawStat/scale becomes the new offset and a new scale is implemented.


The values that wiki lists for progressing above the soft cap use a "y" (offset) value that assumes scale works from 0. Given that the scale is discontinuous, that's not the best way to present it. It should be more like:

((RawStat - SoftCapRawStat) / newScale) + SoftCap

Cure 1, for example, uses x = 4, y = 5 when applied to the full raw stat once past the soft cap. However if you calculate SoftCapRawStat/newScale, 60/4, you get 15; subtract 15 from the soft cap of 20 and you get 5, which explains the chosen y.

Continuing to the 'hard' cap (though not really a strict hard cap since it can still increase beyond that):

"Hard cap" healed:
Cure 1: 30
Cure 2: 90
Cure 3: 190
Cure 4: 390
Cure 5: 690

The RawStat increase needed to reach the hard cap would be:
Cure 1: 40
Cure 2: 60
Cure 3: 120
Cure 4: 240
Cure 5: 120

Total RawStat needed to reach the hard cap:
Cure 1: 100
Cure 2: 170
Cure 3: 300
Cure 4: 460
Cure 5: 440

You'll note that it takes more effort to get Cure IV up to its hard cap than to get Cure V up to its cap, and that the requirements over Cure III are also pretty substantial.


Then you have the scaling above the hard cap. This scale is the rate at which you need to increase the raw stat total to increase the amount of HP healed by 1.
Cure 1: 114
Cure 2: 214/3 (71.33)
Cure 3: 94/3 (31.33)
Cure 4: 13
Cure 5: 17/6 (2.833)

I'll note that some of the numbers really seem wonky, but I'm not the one who tested them so I'll just accept it. Regardless, they're all extremely high, except for Cure V. Additional RawStat has almost no impact.



Changes that I would make:

Change RawStat required for soft cap:
Cure 1: 60
Cure 2: 110
Cure 3: 180
Cure 4: 220
Cure 5: 320

to

Cure 1: 60
Cure 2: 120
Cure 3: 180
Cure 4: 240
Cure 5: 320

This gives a little more headroom on the fastest-scaling area for cures 2 and 4.

I'd then change the scaling for the soft cap zone from 4/4/4/4/1 to 4/4/4/2/1, giving Cure IV a better scaling rate in that area (keeping the RawStat required to reach the hard cap). The amount cured by each at their respective hard caps would then be:

Cure 1: 30
Cure 2: 110
Cure 3: 190
Cure 4: 465
Cure 5: 690

Which gives a fairly substantial boost to Cure IV, a near 20% increase in amount cured at its cap.

Then look into the post-hard cap scaling. Personally, I'd aim for about +10% cured per +100 RawStat. That would put their respective scalings at:
Cure 1: 33
Cure 2: 9
Cure 3: 5
Cure 4: 2
Cure 5: 1.4


Then the total amount cured at 480 RawStat for each of them would be:
Cure 1: -10 + 60/2 + 40/4 + 360/33 = 40
Cure 2: 20 + 120/2 + 60/4 + 300/9 = 128
Cure 3: 70 + 180/2 + 120/4 + 180/5 = 226
Cure 4: 165 + 240/(4/3) + 240/2 + 0/2 = 465
Cure 5: 330 + 320/(4/3) + 120/1 + 40/1.4 = 718

Which, if you add 50% cure potency, would give:
Cure 1: 60
Cure 2: 192
Cure 3: 339
Cure 4: 697
Cure 5: 1077

Between the caps and the scaling, cures 1-4 gain the equivalent of somewhere around 15%-20% cure potency, putting Cure IV at roughly the equivalent of unbuffed lvl 75 Cure V's, and Cure III at a bit below lvl 75 Cure IV's. In other words, a functionally useful amount cured (over 1000 cured with Cure IV+III) without going overboard into whm's territory.

It's enough to be sufficient for lightly to moderately difficult fights, but still keeps whm as who you want for very difficult fights (shift down the scale depending on quality of mage, tank and/or DD, of course).


That would be my initial suggestion for adjusting healing abilities with an eye towards rdm and sch (with sch getting the extra edge of light weather). After that they can add extra things such as sch's enhanced regens, etc.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I want to say something about healing skill affecting cures more but /sch etc. otherwise at the very, very minimum (I am talking very minimum here) I can get behind the soft caps being raised. At the same time, Cure 4 still generates quite a bit of enmity, even more so if it cures for more hp. 6 is overkill but both 5 and 6 have fixed enmity generation.

[Hyrist]

Arguing in circles again.

I've already explained this before: You should invite your Hybrids to accompany your lower tier healers, and leave WHM as the undisputed king of burst healing.

If anything, hybrid jobs need a boost in this situation to make it work easier to this standard, rather than telling SCH and RDM they should be WHMs.

Healing is the least desired of an MMO role. So forcing that function on a singular job within a party, instead of distributing the role among multiple jobs that also serve other purposes goes against this dichotomy instead of working with it.

Again, SCH and RDM should have their own healing over time functions to compliment their damage prevention measures, but nothing more than that, as they already do have powerful damage prevention functions. (though again, RDM needs better spells to regard TP attacks.)

This wouldn't even be an augment if we had a spell that reduced the severity of TP attacks on the monster, we wouldn't need the burst healing you're asking for so loudly.


As far as poor game design, Cid. The poor game design was putting 20 jobs with the vast majority of them Damage Dealers with little other functionality. Placing your same bread and butter Healers in the game creates a very difficult job dynamic, instead of encouraging hybrid roles to accompanying more jobs.

And the more powerful you make the current jobs capable of healing, the harder that dynamic gets. You won't pick a Blue Mage over a Monk unless the monk cant' provide something you need, that a Blue Mage has. Same for every other Hybrid vs top tier damage dealer.

SE really pinned themselves hard in this situation because they're screwed either way. If they give Scholar and Red Mage the healing capacity people are asking for, the way they're asking for it, it will cause the same issues as it did in ToAU, hands down. And still, Hybrids and WHMs will lose out.

But if the player-base, stubborn as mules, will never invite 2 jobs to cover 3 roles if the split role is healing. Which really sucks for players who like playing hybrids.

I get the arguments for having more diversified healing base. But that sort of competition is unhealthy for the kind of jobs we have in this game. Instead we need to be upping the damage prevention utilities of more jobs, particularly RDM and SCH, to compensate.

For 'lighter duty' you shouldn't be needing cure V, and if we're to that point where we do, then for RDM specifically, it's our debuff and enhancing that needs a stronger looking at, NOT our Cure tier.

TL;DR?

Damage Prevention >>>>> Damage Recovery. We don't need stronger healers. We need stronger buffs and debuffs.

[Quetzacoatl]

Okay, here's the plan.

If RDM gets Cure V, then RDM gets Tier 5 Nukes (along with new debuffs, of course), and Manifestation Nukes are SCH Main Job only. That is the only way I will accept seeing RDM get Cure V.

WHM and BLM will still have the stronger nukes and cures anyway because of their supplemental abilities and job traits.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Okay, here's the plan.

If RDM gets Cure V, then RDM gets Tier 5 Nukes (along with new debuffs, of course), and Manifestation Nukes are SCH Main Job only. That is the only way I will accept seeing RDM get Cure V.

WHM and BLM will still have the stronger nukes and cures anyway because of their supplemental abilities and job traits.

Cure V and tier V nukes are not the same. Tier V nukes are comparable to Cure VI.

[Hyrist]

That would be my initial suggestion for adjusting healing abilities with an eye towards rdm and sch (with sch getting the extra edge of light weather). After that they can add extra things such as sch's enhanced regens, etc.

I would be behind this solution, where as SCH could get the enhanced regens and RDM more enhanced debuffs for damage prevention. A soft cap increase accompanied by the Cure Potency gear would bring the healing focus back on track without overshooting it the way Cure V itself would.

Though, that would be more work on SE's end. Still, better than just slapping another tier on RDM and SCH and calling it a day. Cure V is way too toxic of a spell in that regard.

[Quetzacoatl]

Cure V and tier V nukes are not the same. Tier V nukes are comparable to Cure VI.

Wait what? Feel free to laugh at me because I don't give a damn if you do, but do you mean -aja nukes aren't the equivalent of Cure VI and Curagas already? >_>

[Swords]

I think he was talking in terms of numbers, Tier III Nukes roughly have comparable numbers with Cure IV, in a sense Tier V nukes would probably measure up to Cure VI just based on numbers alone.

[Siiri]

Wait what? Feel free to laugh at me because I don't give a damn if you do, but do you mean Tier 2 Ancient Magic isn't the equivalent of Cure VI already? >_>

You mean they are both junk? I guess from that sense that is correct. Scholar too me is more the worry than red mage for Cure V. I would probably be ok with Red Mage having cure 5, mainly because having both red mage and white mage I know what a weak group healer red mage is. It's horrible to heal AOE damage on Red Mage. Scholar is right on the cusp of being overpowered though, always has been. If scholar had T5 nukes taken from them I would support them getting Cure 5, but not as is. Therein lies another problem, once a spell is given, it won't be taken away. Why SE is hesitating on giving Cure 5 out.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Cure 5 and Flash would like a word with you about spells not being taken away.

[Siiri]

Cure 5 and Flash would like a word with you about spells not being taken away.

How long ago did that happen? Sounds good though, time to start my drive to have T5 nukes taken from scholar. LOL

[Hyrist]

I'd like to have flash back... or something along the same style of potency to reduce the damage of a TP attack.

[Quetzacoatl]

I think he was talking in terms of numbers, Tier III Nukes roughly have comparable numbers with Cure IV, in a sense Tier V nukes would probably measure up to Cure VI just based on numbers alone.

I figured as much, but the advantage BLMs and WHMs would still have are Aga's, -ja nukes and Cure VI. While Minimal, it still helps to edge out the power RDM would have with Tier 5 nukes (especially since viable RDM Melee being on par with BLU's Melee capabilities will apparently never see the light of day according to Square).



You mean they are both junk? I guess from that sense that is correct. Scholar too me is more the worry than red mage for Cure V. I would probably be ok with Red Mage having cure 5, mainly because having both red mage and white mage I know what a weak group healer red mage is. It's horrible to heal AOE damage on Red Mage. Scholar is right on the cusp of being overpowered though, always has been. If scholar had T5 nukes taken from them I would support them getting Cure 5, but not as is. Therein lies another problem, once a spell is given, it won't be taken away. Why SE is hesitating on giving Cure 5 out.

I didn't mean Ancient Magic, I meant -ja spells. Guess you beat me to the punch though. And Cure VI being junk in Abyssea? I haven't heard that one before...no, seriously, I haven't. With high-HP DDs and near-one-shot TP Moves coming around, how would it be?

If Cure V is given to RDM, then something of equal ridicule should have to be given as well to balance it out, right? ;\

[FrankReynolds]

something of equal ridicule would have to be given as well to balance it out, right? ;\

Hmmm... I see an announcement coming from camate.

"The dev team has decided to give Red Mages the ability to learn Cure V. However, The Red mage Version will be self target only. Red Mages Rejoice!"

[Quetzacoatl]

Hmmm... I see an announcement coming from camate.

"The dev team has decided to give Red Mages the ability to learn Cure V. However, The Red mage Version will be self target only. Red Mages Rejoice!"

LMFAO. I just spat my water out reading that.

[Siiri]

Cure VI is fine in abyssea, you are correct there. I think it needs to be redone outside to make it viable to be used though.

[Quetzacoatl]

Cure VI is fine in abyssea, you are correct there. I think it needs to be redone outside to make it viable to be used though.

Tweak it so its potency is also dependent on 75% of the target's Max HP to prevent overcuring, perhaps? My opinion on Cure VI is that it's supposed to be an emergency cure to prevent the target from dying the moment they hit Red HP.

[Motenten]

Tweak it so its potency is dependent on a high percentage of the target's Max HP, perhaps?

That wouldn't work. Anything that would be remotely useful outside Abyssea and could still cure more than Cure V would be ludicrously overpowered inside Abyssea. Anything balanced for inside Abyssea would be pathetically weak outside Abyssea.

EG: Mnk inside Abyssea with 3600 HP. 2/3 of his HP would be 2400 HP cured; quite potent. Now cure the nin outside Abyssea with 1200 HP for 2/3 of his max HP: 800. Not worth the effort.

[Quetzacoatl]

Hmmm, good point...

[Dantedmc]

Cure VI is useful in the situations where you need heavy healing abyssea and voidwatch. Abyssea obviously you aren't running out of mp. Voidwatch also allows you to have plenty of mp conservation. Up to 7 tic gear refresh, /sch or /rdm, +2 pants, and 2x Lucid Ether II / Mana Powder (If you have your periapts) that get recharged everytime you proc the nm. Don't get me wrong I want cure VI's mp cost lowered and they could even throw in another bonus such as enhanced cureskin +15%. However Currently Cure VI is a nice addition when you need to do heavy healing.

[Quetzacoatl]

Yeah, I agree there needs to be an extra perk to using Cure VI to be worth using. I'm almost inclined to say a defense bonus of some sort.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Wait what? Feel free to laugh at me because I don't give a damn if you do, but do you mean -aja nukes aren't the equivalent of Cure VI and Curagas already? >_>

Use your loaf.

Numbers aside in terms of how they work and how they've been placed.

Cure = (no nuke)
Cure II = (nuke tier I)
Cure III = (nuke tier II)
Cure IV = (nuke tier III)
Cure V = (nuke tier IV)
Cure VI = (nuke tier V)

[saevel]

How long ago did that happen? Sounds good though, time to start my drive to have T5 nukes taken from scholar. LOL

He's being dishonest.

RDM was on the scroll in name only, the game's level wasn't high enough for RDM to actually use the scroll. When RoTZ was released they upped the level cap and removed RDM from the scroll. No RDM has ever actually learned Flash / Cure V / Diaga II. SE didn't "take them away" they prevented us from getting them in the first place.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Being on a scroll and being taken off said scroll is what I call spells being taken away, I don't know why your definition is so different.

[Quetzacoatl]

Use your loaf.

Numbers aside in terms of how they work and how they've been placed.

Cure = (no nuke)
Cure II = (nuke tier I)
Cure III = (nuke tier II)
Cure IV = (nuke tier III)
Cure V = (nuke tier IV)
Cure VI = (nuke tier V)

Sure, from a listing standpoint.

Do Healing-to-Damage though, and it should look like this:

Cure = (nuke tier 1)
Cure II = (nuke tier II)
Cure III = (nuke tier III)
Cure IV = (nuke tier IV)
Cure V = (nuke tier V)
Cure VI = Comet

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Sure, from a listing standpoint.

Do Healing-to-Damage though, and it should look like this:

Cure = (nuke tier 1)
Cure II = (nuke tier II)
Cure III = (nuke tier III)
Cure IV = (nuke tier IV)
Cure V = (nuke tier V)
Cure VI = Comet

It's not really though, tier I nukes are stronger than Cure by quite a bit.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Cures soft cap far too quickly.

[Quetzacoatl]

It's not really though, tier I nukes are stronger than Cure by quite a bit.

Yes, tier 1's are stronger than cure. But when comparing the enemy's HP to yours, it should make sense looking at it that way, I hope.

Either way, before this gets into headache territory, I'm only saying that I'm not going to accept RDM getting Cure 5 without getting something else that keeps it from being a secondary solo white mage.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Yes, tier 1's are stronger than cure. But when comparing the enemy's HP to yours, it should make sense looking at it that way, I hope.

This doesn't reduce the fact that Cure IV is still not enough, not unless they want to increase the soft-cap.

---

I actually don't think RDM nuking is that bad, it's come quite a long way recently.

OFF TOPIC: Has anyone checked if RDM got MDB III this update, they should have to fall in like with MAB III at 90, I wouldn't know how to check it.

[Quetzacoatl]

I actually don't think RDM nuking is that bad, it's come quite a long way recently.

OFF TOPIC: Has anyone checked if RDM got MDB III this update, they should have to fall in like with MAB III at 90, I wouldn't know how to check it.

Yeah, but who invites a RDM to nuke, though? :|

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Yeah, but who invites a RDM to nuke, though? :|

Too true! :(

[Kimble]

Should probably not invite SCH's who are horrible at FFXI.

SCH serves no real purpose for me. Ive already beaten all of voidwatch and cleared everything with full caps in a timely fashion. At first I always made sure to bring a SCH but over time, it got less and less useful. I bring 3 BLMs and they can cover mulitple magic procs at once where the SCH can only do T1-5 and a Helix, a BLM can do all that, plus ja, ga 1-3 and AM 1-2.

Also anytime we proc a red, we have all the DDs go in and zerg which helps build lights pretty quickly which is even less of a reason for SCH.

[Swords]

Assuming your not abusing SCH's for Embrava to zerg it down faster during that time.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Bring a brd?

[Kimble]

Yeah its great. Once every 2 hours. So I can use it exactly for one fight. Usually do 3-4x of each NM and up to 3 different NMs. While I dont under estimate the power of Embrava, its not like im just doing one fight then its done.

[Ophannus]

Embrava can last upwards of 15ish minutes, that's pretty boss.

[Kimble]

Embrava can last upwards of 15ish minutes, that's pretty boss.

True.

And its still only good for one fight. I guess maybe 2 if you use it and it carries over before you pop again.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Yeah its great. Once every 2 hours. So I can use it exactly for one fight. Usually do 3-4x of each NM and up to 3 different NMs. While I dont under estimate the power of Embrava, its not like im just doing one fight then its done.

Fun in Abyssea if you have capped lights.

[saevel]

Being on a scroll and being taken off said scroll is what I call spells being taken away, I don't know why your definition is so different.

Did you have "Cure V" or "Flash" in your cast-able spells list ever? Did one day you wake up after an update and find it gone?

That is the definition of take away, it means to remove something you could do.

SE didn't take away any spells from RDM, they simply didn't give them to RDM in the first place. Which is why WHM wasn't on the "addle" scroll when it was created, even though SE knew they were going to give it to them and the precise level they would do it at.

This goes to one of the lessons learned from the skinner experiments. Take two groups of rats and put them in a skinner box. The first group have drop food pellets at a rate of one per min. The second group have food pellets drop at a rate of once per 5 min.

After awhile, change the first groups drop rate to once per 5 min. Observe the behavioral changes. The first group gets irate, angry and will attack each other. The second group is calm and sedate. Both groups are getting the same food rate of once per 5 min. The only difference is that the first group got to experience a greater sense of reward.

The conclusion was reduction of reward is considered to be a hostile action by the recipients. They believe you are "taking" something from them, even when it wasn't theirs to begin with.

Next experiment involved two birds in a cage. First bird could easily hit the level and get a food pellet. Second bird had it's feet tied to a pole and was unable to get to the food pellets. After awhile the mechanism to drop the food pellets was turned off. Guess what happened? The first bird got irate and started attacking the second bird who's feet were tied down.

The conclusion was that the reduction of reward not only is a hostile action, but that the recipients will attack the nearest recognizable object as the source of the problem. The first bird got angry at the second because it's reward was removed, even when the second bird wasn't receiving any of the reward.

Seriously, as much as I hate how MMO's use Skinner's experiments to model their game reward mechanisms, most of this experiments explain much of the social behavior present in these video games. And here we thought ourselves better then animals.

[Neisan_Quetz]

If I say 'taken off the scroll of' will that make you feel better? I'm sorry my definition of the phrase 'take away' includes the word remove - wait so does yours, what are you arguing about? Rdm was on the scrolls, Rdm was taken off the scrolls - said spells on the scrolls were taken away from Rdm. You're arguing semantics at this point as far as I'm concerned.

[MDenham]

If I say 'taken off the scroll of' will that make you feel better? I'm sorry my definition of the phrase 'take away' includes the word remove - wait so does yours, what are you arguing about? Rdm was on the scrolls, Rdm was taken off the scrolls - said spells on the scrolls were taken away from Rdm. You're arguing semantics at this point as far as I'm concerned.In that case, WHM wants its native Refresh at 61 back too.

[Neisan_Quetz]

It can have it. The most it'll do is have them /blm more often, and they do that anyway if they need stun from the whm.

[saevel]

If I say 'taken off the scroll of' will that make you feel better? I'm sorry my definition of the phrase 'take away' includes the word remove - wait so does yours, what are you arguing about? Rdm was on the scrolls, Rdm was taken off the scrolls - said spells on the scrolls were taken away from Rdm. You're arguing semantics at this point as far as I'm concerned.

Now your back tracking.

Your phrasing was such that you presented your argument as SE removing from RDM a capability it had possessed. You used "take away" in a negative meaning as in "they stole it from RDM". This is dishonest as SE never stole anything. RDM was never able to cast those spells, SE was originally planning it but decided against it. The only thing that changed was SE's intentions.

Or would you like to say SE "took away" Fire VII and Firaga VI from BLM. They were both on scrolls, those scrolls existed in the games item database on the server. SE never had them drop from any monster because we level reached levels 100+, similar to how RDM couldn't learn Cure V / Flash due to it not being high enough to use the scroll. Heck there were all sorts of things in the .dats that never materialized in the game. Should we go around stating how SE "took away" all those spells / abilities?

Your argument boiled down to you feeling bad that SE Santa didn't' give you what you wanted for Christmas. Now stop trying to play semantics with me, your no where good enough for that.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Rdm was on the scrolls for the spells, Rdm was taken off the scrolls for the spells - said spells on the scrolls were taken away from Rdm. You're arguing semantics at this point.

I really can't make it any simpler than this for you.

The response was to the statement - 'spells aren't taken away'

Me: 2 spells have been taken away in the past.

You: that's not true, they weren't taken away, Rdm was removed from being able to learn the spells.

Me: Yea, that's called being taken away.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I really can't make it any simpler than this for you.

The response was to the statement - 'spells aren't taken away'

Me: 2 spells have been taken away in the past.

You: that's not true, they weren't taken away, Rdm was removed from being able to learn the spells.

Me: Yea, that's called being taken away.

The poster is clearly just after being rude and stroking his ego, I wouldn't bother.

[Kristal]

I've mentioned it before: RDM and SCH are NOT going to get Cure V. They will get Curasa instead. WHM will get it and Curaja (aoe version). I only hope it's added at an earlier level then 96...

Would be nice if someone from SE would actually come in and lift the sheets on this though...

[cidbahamut]

The poster is clearly just after being rude and stroking his ego, I wouldn't bother.

It's saevel, that's all he ever does.

[CapriciousOne]

Arguing in circles again.

I've already explained this before: You should invite your Hybrids to accompany your lower tier healers, and leave WHM as the undisputed king of burst healing.

If anything, hybrid jobs need a boost in this situation to make it work easier to this standard, rather than telling SCH and RDM they should be WHMs.

1. Healing is the least desired of an MMO role. So forcing that function on a singular job within a party, instead of distributing the role among multiple jobs that also serve other purposes goes against this dichotomy instead of working with it.

Again, SCH and RDM should have their own healing over time functions to compliment their damage prevention measures, but nothing more than that, as they already do have powerful damage prevention functions. (though again, RDM needs better spells to regard TP attacks.)

2. This wouldn't even be an augment if we had a spell that reduced the severity of TP attacks on the monster, we wouldn't need the burst healing you're asking for so loudly.


3. As far as poor game design, Cid. The poor game design was putting 20 jobs with the vast majority of them Damage Dealers with little other functionality. Placing your same bread and butter Healers in the game creates a very difficult job dynamic, instead of encouraging hybrid roles to accompanying more jobs.

And the more powerful you make the current jobs capable of healing, the harder that dynamic gets. You won't pick a Blue Mage over a Monk unless the monk cant' provide something you need, that a Blue Mage has. Same for every other Hybrid vs top tier damage dealer.

SE really pinned themselves hard in this situation because they're screwed either way. If they give Scholar and Red Mage the healing capacity people are asking for, the way they're asking for it, it will cause the same issues as it did in ToAU, hands down. And still, Hybrids and WHMs will lose out.

4. But if the player-base, stubborn as mules, will never invite 2 jobs to cover 3 roles if the split role is healing. Which really sucks for players who like playing hybrids.

5. I get the arguments for having more diversified healing base. But that sort of competition is unhealthy for the kind of jobs we have in this game. Instead we need to be upping the damage prevention utilities of more jobs, particularly RDM and SCH, to compensate.

For 'lighter duty' you shouldn't be needing cure V, and if we're to that point where we do, then for RDM specifically, it's our debuff and enhancing that needs a stronger looking at, NOT our Cure tier.

TL;DR?

Damage Prevention >>>>> Damage Recovery. We don't need stronger healers. We need stronger buffs and debuffs.

1. I couldn't agree more as this alone is the main reason I dont ask for and deny any and all party invites because I feel RDM has no business main healing no matter how good it is at doing it personally. Plus that bs is just boring and lazy for all of RDM talents. I just feel RDM has more to contribute than being a nurse especially since not only does whm have the same spells they cover multiple people for the same mp with the curaga spells. Yea i know all the complaints about WHM doing that but whatever I'm just saying.

2. TP reduction debuffs for RDM would be sweet and welcomed for events I imagine though I never do any but still would also help with NM that do crazy TP damage moves that are AoE as well. I still disagree with you however that burst cures like cure V wouldnt be needed especially solo which is the main reason i'm asking for it. I tend to play with fire i suppose and allow my hp to be orange or red depending on the strength of the mob so being able to get back up to almost full health would be welcomed. I'm just a glutton for pain I suppose and like the adrenaline of almost dying.

3. As long as I dont have to main heal I'll accompany just about any job combination anywhere. I always try to adjust to change circumstances instead of the whole cookie cutter bs the player base refuses to alter. The strongest players in any game are always flexible and able to adjust in my opinion.

4. Again I couldnt put it better myself. This is the heart of all the problems in this game, THE PLAYERS not the developers. Our inability to consider anything other then the old and worn out is beyond annoying to me. Which is why I exclusively solo now because I dont have to put up with bs arguments over why I chose this piece or armor or cast this spell or god knows whatever other bs somebody finds to whine about. This is a game and it is meant to played in a myriad of ways that satisfies our gameplay experience. Just because I like to do something a certain way that another person doesnt have the patience or guts to manage doesnt make it wrong just different.

5. Well I still want Cure V but I totally agree our enfeebles could stand to be stronger and proc more. I mean the baseline effects before gear mods and stat boost could be increased. One thing I personally would like is if Group 1 and 2 merits across the board was increased from 10 to 20 for all jobs. Actually 30 would be best but I dont expect miracles from SE about that but still I would enjoy it. I'm especially keen on using Tier 2 Phalanx/blind/paralyze and Tier 3 Bio and Dia so being able to max out all would be sweet but again wishful thinking.

I suppose we do tend to overlook our debuffs in the cry for Cure V but I still think it is type for a new Cure. I mean it has been over 42 levels and no new cure? I've seen some Gov where the pages call for mobs that are like level 100+ to be killed, trust me Cure V is and will be needed like it or not and your going to want more than just WHM to have it. Plus with Curaga IV and Curaga V, WHM can still shine bright. I always thought it would be cool to low man a WHM, a BLM, and a RDM and take on multiple mobs at once but since RDM has no AoE enfeebles this would suck but I digress.

Overall I think there needs to be more diversity in job choices for parties instead of the cookie cutter we have been dependent. Yea yea I know it works but so does other combinations if one knows how to mitigate weakness. To me this is the reason support jobs exist to mitigate those weakenss depending on your ultimate goal. Still this is a USER problem and unless those users for the diversity give those against it the proverbial finger and band together this probelm will always remain.

[Motenten]

Addendum to my previous bit of math (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/15642-Cure-V?p=208029&viewfull=1#post208029), since I forgot to account for MP efficiency.

Cure amounts with 50% Cure potency:
Cure 1: 60 / 8 = 7.5
Cure 2: 192 / 24 = 8.0
Cure 3: 339 / 46 = 7.37
Cure 4: 697 / 88 = 7.92
Cure 5: 1077 / 135 = 7.98


And with AF3+2 pants:
Cure 1: 60 / (8-3) = 12.0
Cure 2: 192 / (24-9) = 12.8
Cure 3: 339 / (46-16) = 11.3
Cure 4: 697 / (88-34) = 12.91
Cure 5: 1077 / (135-53) = 13.13

As we can see, since MP costs were determined based on previous healing potential, changes to the cure cap and scaling on Cure II and IV cause them to be boosted up in efficiency compared to Cure III. To keep things in line efficiency-wise, Cure III would probably need its cost dropped to 43 MP.

[Economizer]

Addendum to my previous bit of math

If you are modifying your math based on the AF3 pants, also consider the Light Arts cost reduction. No good White Mage goes without it.

[Neisan_Quetz]

He'll also probably have to add his math over on Allah on /rdm versus /sch, and I can't remember the link right now.

[Motenten]

I didn't include Light Arts because that's just a percentage reduction in cost -- it affects all spells' efficiency equally. Whm AF3 pants, on the other hand, reduce cost proportional to the amount cured. Since this involves changes in how much is cured by each spell, the pants need to be taken into consideration in the comparison.

Since this is just a suggestion, not an actual game change, I won't be making any modifications to my subjob comparison spreadsheet.

[Lynxis]

As many people are suggesting, I'd like to see a cure 4.5 type spell for RDM/SCH/PLD. Hard cap it at ~550, which means with full potency gear, it can cure ~825 per spell and give it high enmity generation like Cure 4. That means a fully loaded RDM or SCH can cure for around 1400 in a single cure round, enough to almost fully heal a single DD. It won't overtake WHM by any means but would allow RDM and SCH sufficient for back up cures on difficult content, main cures on easier content and give PLD another (badly needed) enmity generation tool.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Pld doesn't need more enmity tools it's been beaten to death over on their own forums. Cure IV's enmity generation is bad enough, pre modifiers it has about as much VE as a voke iirc, or a little under that. Tranquil Heart helps but doesn't fix that alone.

[Mageoholic]

The easiest solution is to slap C5 on all jobs with native cures (RDM/WHM/SCH/PLD) I think I would like to see the % values tweaked somewhat for all healing spells excluding C5 (but including C6).

Something that pushes the value of a C4 to about 600 base HP (before Cure Potency). This would mean near 1K heals for all jobs with C4. This is near the potency of C5 however the enmity gained by using this heal is also much higher. Thus you now have a trade off, a very MP efficient heal that pulls a lot of hate.

For the WHM's they would also be presented another option for cure bombing, a highly mp efficient heal, that in exchange pulls a lot of hate.

IMO this would be the best way to tweak balance issues in healing, while keeping the WHM crowd who thinks they will lose their spots if anyone else gets C5 content.

[Shadowsong]

Hey, stop trolling this is a serious thread i want RDM to get cure V. Also RDM will probably get Stone/WaterV by the time we're 99.

You disagree with him, and you're a troll?
I disagree with your assumption that RDM require Cure V.
And please post your views in one of the literally 900 other RDM whining threads instead of spamming the forum main page with outdated, beat to death topics.

ITT: Search functions are hard

[Neisan_Quetz]

88 threads in one forum = 900, you heard it here first.

[Hyrist]

Cause RDM official boards = the entirety of RDM threads on the internet.

[Hyrist]

5. Well I still want Cure V but I totally agree our enfeebles could stand to be stronger and proc more. I mean the baseline effects before gear mods and stat boost could be increased. One thing I personally would like is if Group 1 and 2 merits across the board was increased from 10 to 20 for all jobs. Actually 30 would be best but I dont expect miracles from SE about that but still I would enjoy it. I'm especially keen on using Tier 2 Phalanx/blind/paralyze and Tier 3 Bio and Dia so being able to max out all would be sweet but again wishful thinking.

I suppose we do tend to overlook our debuffs in the cry for Cure V but I still think it is type for a new Cure. I mean it has been over 42 levels and no new cure?

Ultimately, this is what it boils down into.

There are those who want Cure V purely for the sake of getting a new Cure. And those who want Cure V to compete in the healer slot with White Mage.

Neither of these are a strong enough case for the spell, especially because of the job and playerbase dynamic. You simply won't bring a Hybrid unless a favored healer/debuffer is just short of the mark, which is where RDM and SCH need to be, IMO, to keep WHM as even a passing consideration.

You might list tier 1 Debuffs as if they matter a lick a damn compared to their tier 2 counterparts, but they honestly don't. Slow 2 Starts where slow 1 ENDS and Saboteaur Dia III alone bests out any offensive assistance WHM can give on a higher defense mob. That's not touching the nuking game, crowd control, or Embrava (on SCH's side of the argument.)

I do beleive RDM and SCH need healing improvements, but more than a cure '4.5 'is toxic. Cure V is just that much by and large more potently powerful, and in the hands of RDM and SCH on top of their other utilities, it provides a severe fear of these three issues:

1. It detracts from White Mage being brought to preform the role it alone is the specialist in.
2. It distracts from more job defining aspects both SCH and RDM should be their respective specialists in.
3. It re-polarizes the job economy away from Hybrid jobs or job that fill multiple roles when it desperately needs to go the other direction.

Sadly, Cure V is that potent of a spell. It's the wrong way to go to solve a problem that is simply about much more than RDM or SCH individually.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Cause RDM official boards = the entirety of RDM threads on the internet.

And I care about Rdms whining on other boards why? and there still isn't 900 threads on this forum of whining so he's still exaggerating. Pointing out use the search function suggests he means these boards, not 5 other ones added up together.


1. Cure V isn't the only thing keeping Whm heads above bringing any other job for healing unless you're fighting fodder mobs, Adloqium is a joke at 1/tick, Libra is useless (oh hey I tell you shit you've known for the past 3 years), Enfeebles are either heavily resisted or SE brings out more and more NMs that either completely ignore the majority of them (-30 accuracy from overcapped hit rate is still overcapped hit rate, 90% of NMs post RoZ resist gravity, bind is near useless for new NMs even if it did land) or where enfeebling them is near pointless as they possess unnamed AoE attacks that are considered TP moves, meaning paralyze and slow cannot do anything to mitigate them. Then they refuse to let Pining and Addle Stack on the basis mobs cannot swing at you while casting spells... as if most monsters take a really long time casting spells and/or don't have high levels of fast cast/elemental celerity. Oh, and handing out Addle to the job already beating all the other mages in terms of support and healing/giving Brd Pining and then making it not stack is a brilliant move for the job they claim they want to specialize in enfeebling. In spite of that, specializing in a specific role does not mean no other job should be able to fill that role.

2. Job defining aspects? how is ignoring one of the roles of the job detracting from its aspects? Rdms are supposed to specialize in several schools of magic but not be the best in any one field (no native -aga cures no native status removal no native AoE buffs period no Sacrifice/Esuna/Auspice/Misery no T5 nukes No Comet/Meteor no native dark magic other than Bio series no -aga/-aja nukes no Elemental Celerity), Sch is supposed to learn white and black magic and have to decide which to specialize in at a given moment, Cure V will not change this. Whm is still the absolute best healer and now, 2 other jobs can help fill the role if necessary.

3. Hybrid jobs that actually fill a hybrid role are... let's go with Blu and maybe Dnc right now. SE has basically told Dancers they refuse to make the job more viable as a support healer and after the heavy strike nerf to Blu (killing both its accuracy and ftp) it's pretty clear they don't care about hybrid jobs at tough events. Whm is still going to be the de facto best healer in the game whether or not Sch and Rdm get Cure V. I really don't know how you think more jobs being able to fill a healing role if necessary is a bad thing, Cure IV does not cut it.

[cidbahamut]

We get it it Hyrist. You don't want Red Mage to be versatile and useful.

[CapriciousOne]

Ultimately, this is what it boils down into.

There are those who want Cure V purely for the sake of getting a new Cure. And those who want Cure V to compete in the healer slot with White Mage.

Neither of these are a strong enough case for the spell, especially because of the job and playerbase dynamic. You simply won't bring a Hybrid unless a favored healer/debuffer is just short of the mark, which is where RDM and SCH need to be, IMO, to keep WHM as even a passing consideration.

You might list tier 1 Debuffs as if they matter a lick a damn compared to their tier 2 counterparts, but they honestly don't. Slow 2 Starts where slow 1 ENDS and Saboteaur Dia III alone bests out any offensive assistance WHM can give on a higher defense mob. That's not touching the nuking game, crowd control, or Embrava (on SCH's side of the argument.)

I do beleive RDM and SCH need healing improvements, but more than a cure '4.5 'is toxic. Cure V is just that much by and large more potently powerful, and in the hands of RDM and SCH on top of their other utilities, it provides a severe fear of these three issues:

1. It detracts from White Mage being brought to preform the role it alone is the specialist in.
2. It distracts from more job defining aspects both SCH and RDM should be their respective specialists in.
3. It re-polarizes the job economy away from Hybrid jobs or job that fill multiple roles when it desperately needs to go the other direction.

Sadly, Cure V is that potent of a spell. It's the wrong way to go to solve a problem that is simply about much more than RDM or SCH individually.

Well I must admit that I have been rather busy with leveling my Adventuring fellow to the current cap as well as skilling so I havent really seen firsthand Cure V in action. I also agree with somebody else that the merit system should not have been used to give RDM higher tier enfeeble spells and in stead should've focused more on elemental potency instead like the group 1 merits. This would cover all of RDM spells pretty much from Enfeebles, Enhacement, and elemental. Since most of these factor in our actual skill the group 2 merits would look similar to group 1. Ex. "Fire Magic Potency" with each merit adding like 4% potency. With this enhancements like tier 1 and 2 enspells damage would increase since at current it seem to cap out at 10% of your enhancing skill before gear bonuses" this instead would increase it to say 30 percent.

Also it would be nice to expand rdm only spells to be AoE as well like Enspells so that party members could also reap the benefits of our enspells natively and exclusively by RDM. If improvements like this was made to RDM then I see no reason why more rdm wouldnt be invited and it would de-emphasize RDM for healing and instead buffing. I still would like to see some AoE enfeebles because I'm just me and the idea of RDM/BLM/WHM owning mobs without the prototypical DD seems doable to me if that would happen :-) For instance a Bindga spell would be nice for RDM for WoE battlefields to keep mobs from roaming around while party kills boss or other mob. Also in some situations being able to group enfeeble would allow the possibilties of a party attacking multiple mobs at once in said battlefields giving more of a chance to complete battle in time (think blindga - RDM/BLM, or paralyzga - RDM/WHM).

On a personal level I dont think a half a cure is reasonable, why tease me with a half-assed cure? I'm more of an all of nothing guy but if they decide on nothing than they should make the adjustments mentioned above to compensate. For those who already have Group 2 RDM merits, upon update they should just be given the spell in thier inventory upon login. So I would already have a Dia/Bio III, Paralyze/Blind/Phalanx II scroll since I merited those. Make the group 2 merits element based (Fire, Wind, Earth, Lightining,Water, Ice potency). Increase the total Group I/II merits to 20 or 30 for each group for every job and we should be all set.

This would not allow us to overpower BLM in any way because we are still limited by Magic Attack Bonus traits which only BLM gets every last one and we don't so dont start whining about that too now. This increases the Potency of Tier 1 and Tier 2 enspells as well as barspells for RDM providing more damage and protection respectively.

Personally though I never understood why WHM needed AoE buffs when RDM has the stronger skill there anyway, if it was me I would strip WHM of it and give to RDM where it belong, LOL. Seriously though strip WHM of this and give to RDM where it should be and then WHM can quit crying already. This combined with the merit changes would allow more hybrid jobs to take on a more meaningful role other than being a nurse.

Technically though if DD and tank /dnc more there wouldnt really be that much need for a WHM anyway so anyway you look it at there is always something to threaten the need for a WHM. Just tired of the devoted hate toward us RDM. :-D

I personally want Cure V because as my fellow is approaching level 80 and i'm using level 81-90 mobs to level her up with I am finding it increasingly resource consuming to keep both of us heal despite refresh ii and /dnc. It just starting to feel like it is quickly going to be inadequate soon as i seek out mobs. Right now i'm still 90 bc I want my skills to catch up more before breaking to 95 but these cure issues do need to be adressed. I need to be able to cure 550+ hp in one swoop. Curing waltz III is the last waltz I will get as /dnc so i need something stronger to compensate and soon. Yea I know of potency stuff but I hate clutter in my inventory which is already stretched thin. In addition I dont have time to be macroing in/out gear for potency as RDM/DNC espeically if the effect is on a weapon because of the TP loss for swapping out weapons. If TP was attached to the character and not the weapon instead then I might me ok with it but it isnt designed that way.

[Hyrist]

I'm sorry Cid, what was that? I can't hear over the ignore you're under.

[Hyrist]

1. Cure V isn't the only thing keeping Whm heads above bringing any other job for healing unless you're fighting fodder mobs,

Yes, it is. It is the ONLY thing keeping RDM and SCH from being able to fully address spike damage that Cure IV spam cannot handle. Unless you're talking mass AoE damage in which case you should be bringing both RDM and WHM bare minimum.

You think Cureskin matters on anything but the highest NMs? If so, then you need better tanks, which is sad considering which side of the elitist argument you're on.



2. Job defining aspects? how is ignoring one of the roles of the job detracting from its aspects?

Funny, I made that argument about melee.

If you picture RDM as a solo healer for a party than you're on the wrong job. Red Mage is a SUPPORT job. The emphasis on the job is Enfeebeling, with a nod to self-enhancing. This is the direction stated in the JP version of the Manifesto, not to mention the bread and butter of the job.

HNM resistance issues still do not prevent RDM from maintaining haste and Refresh II on their party. It still does not prevent them from putting up to a 23% irresistible defense reduction on the kill target.

There is no argument that RDM isn't inheriantly broken in the way Enhancing only seems to benefit the RDM the most or how Enfeebles can be resisted far too easily on HNM mobs. But if you beleive healing is more important than that, get out of these boards right now. Even I acknowledge that Melee Nuking and Healing are supplementary to our core role.


3. Hybrid jobs that actually fill a hybrid role are... let's go with Blu and maybe Dnc right now. SE has basically told Dancers they refuse to make the job more viable as a support healer and after the heavy strike nerf to Blu (killing both its accuracy and ftp) it's pretty clear they don't care about hybrid jobs at tough events. Whm is still going to be the de facto best healer in the game whether or not Sch and Rdm get Cure V. I really don't know how you think more jobs being able to fill a healing role if necessary is a bad thing, Cure IV does not cut it.

The italicized, pure bull. But that's a debate for another time.

We're not debating whether or not Cure IV cuts it. I'm in support of more healing prowace for RDM. I am against CURE V specifically, or rather the general idea that RDM and SCH should be spike healers rather than HoT.

It doesn't matter that WHM is the Defacto best healer.(fifth time saying it) In any situation in which RDM and SCH can manage the problem, WHM will get bumped. And there should be no reason why WHM and (RDM,SCH) cannot share a party outside of HNM fights.

You want more healing capacity for RDM? Fine, get better heal over time spells. Spike damage that can quickly address heavy TP attacks does not address the fact that our enfeebles are glaringly lacking the capacity to reduce that type of damage. And Red Mage should not be able to simply fix that problem in hindsight with an overpowered cure. Red Mage at it's core has always been about stacking the deck in favor of the players before the damage is dealt. Again, curing will not be an issue of RDM has a debuff that can take the edge off of TP attacks.

And Scholar has an answer to their healing woes staring the development team in the face in the form of Helixes.

There is no reason to give RDM or SCH Cure V over other solutions and plenty of reasons not to. You want to be better healers, give them better healing over time. But stick to their core mechanics to solve the problem, instead of giving them a toxic spell that will actually hurt the game itself more than it will help.


I'm going to sit a while and write down my current ideal for balancing out the curing issue for the game. I have a feeling you wouldn't be so adamantly opposed to it.

[Neisan_Quetz]

1. Yes cureskin matters because you do not need to cure any amount of Hp to even have it up, that's free 400 HP right there. And why do I care about support on lower tier NMs? Being inferior at curing lower and higher tier NMs does not make you more wanted in a party setting, especially when the majority of your buffs are self target. You could bring an inferior job to cure those if you want and guess what, Whm is still better support (even if it means /thf for TH and bringing a better DD) than Rdm and Sch on those mobs unless you're supertanking fodder and having Phalanx drop the hits to single digit damage/0. Even there guess what, being able to drop SS on someone at will is still sufficient enough for rounding up fodder mobs.

2. I said I was against further melee adjustments because Rdm melee is fine where it is post Temper. The only mage job clearly above Rdm in melee right now is Blu and that's a hybrid. Neither job is viable meleeing on harder content.
Supporting the party includes healing... There's options for DD/Tank jobs (although one is clearly ahead on harder content), at least 2 options for support jobs (although Brd is still in the lead for pure support Cor is getting better and Smn is used for niche situations/paired with Brd for damage mitigation and support), there's at least 2 hybrid jobs. There's only one job that can effectively heal on not fodder. That is bad design.

3. Your healing over time is Regen 2 with Emp+2 set bonus, enjoy it. Whm and Rdm will never share a pt at non HNM events outside of the Whm needing refresh II (which whm doesn't need at non hnm events, and even there can suffice without it if you brought decent support, which for some reason you haven't), can you figure out why yet? Whm is the better healer, sufficient enfeebler, better enhancer, only the worst nuker since SE nerfed Holy and hadn't given them any higher light damage magic until now. Rdm is the job getting bumped, not Whm.

[cidbahamut]

I'm sorry Cid, what was that? I can't hear over the ignore you're under.
I tried to come up with a clever retort, but all your post does is illustrate for everyone that you really have nothing worthwhile to say, since you can't be bothered listening to everything presented on both sides of any given issue.

[FrankReynolds]

I tried to come up with a clever retort, but all your post does is illustrate for everyone that you really have nothing worthwhile to say, since you can't be bothered listening to everything presented on both sides of any given issue.

Here, I'll post that for you since I think the ignore function is a crappy cop out for lack of moderation.

[Hyrist]

Actually, it's the reverse, Cid. When was the last time you contributed ANYTHING to a conversation besides an insult? At the very least I provide my viewpoint in full, and also offer concessions, solutions to the debate, rather than just make assumptions on other people based off of a total lack of reading comprehension.

Also, more added to the Blist. Good job.

@Neisan_Quetz

You're assuming that I propose to do NOTHING with RDM curing. Which is a false assumption, as illustrated by the threat I posted. The idea is to keep the curing ability of one specific job limited without increasing the whole. Addressing the curing problem by giving better cures for all, and giving RDM better potency against enemy attacks, damage PREVENTION > Damage Restoration, but still improving restoration without improving spike healing.

Take a look at the idea.

[Hyrist]

For a more in-depth reply:

1. Yes cureskin matters because you do not need to cure any amount of Hp to even have it up, that's free 400 HP right there. And why do I care about support on lower tier NMs? Being inferior at curing lower and higher tier NMs does not make you more wanted in a party setting, especially when the majority of your buffs are self target. You could bring an inferior job to cure those if you want and guess what, Whm is still better support (even if it means /thf for TH and bringing a better DD) than Rdm and Sch on those mobs unless you're supertanking fodder and having Phalanx drop the hits to single digit damage/0. Even there guess what, being able to drop SS on someone at will is still sufficient enough for rounding up fodder mobs.

Keeping the topic on lower tier NMs? This is where RDM's secondaries, such as melee and nuking, should come into play stronger than they currently do. With my proposal, bringing a RDM and another Hybrid would fill 3 roles with 2 jobs, giving more job options to said NM than just DD + WHM. But the idea is to play at the core functions of RDM, Enhancing and Enfeebeling, rather than just giving them Cure V, which does nothing for anyone else nor for the suffering role of RDM. They just get pinned into a WHM -1 role.



2. I said I was against further melee adjustments because Rdm melee is fine where it is post Temper. The only mage job clearly above Rdm in melee right now is Blu and that's a hybrid. Neither job is viable meleeing on harder content.
Again, 'the game only revolves around HNMs!' is bull. But I won't argue the issue about Melee until the WS adjustments come through the pipeline. I'm happy about Temper and Gain STR right now, but it still doesn't regard the fundamental flaws with Sword as a weapon class. That has little to do with RDM specifically as much as RDM BLU PLD which I view all 3 need to have their primary weapon be a bit more powerful than it is.

As far as BLU and HNMs goes. Blu Mage still has access to a wide variety of spells that make it useful in HNM content. As does RDM in terms of being a support job. The fact that they step back during HNM content does not bother me, but the case should not be so for RDM and lesser NMs.



Supporting the party includes healing... There's options for DD/Tank jobs (although one is clearly ahead on harder content), at least 2 options for support jobs (although Brd is still in the lead for pure support Cor is getting better and Smn is used for niche situations/paired with Brd for damage mitigation and support), there's at least 2 hybrid jobs. There's only one job that can effectively heal on not fodder. That is bad design.

Agreed, I'm not debating that. I'm debating that Cure V, (read: easily repeatable, near-0 consequence burst healing), is toxic for the game design, worse than leaving the game as it is. There are issues with Dancer and Blue Mage that could both be addressed to help the curing problem on their end too that can all help be addressed as a whole.

But no, I agree healing improvements are needed. But they're needed across the board, by appealing to what makes each job unique in the utility department, not just "hurr Cure V or nothing, hurr" So I came up with the question "Why isn't there any support spells specifically for healing?" That would be more up SCH and RDM's alley than just giving them Cure V.


3. Your healing over time is Regen 2 with Emp+2 set bonus, enjoy it. Whm and Rdm will never share a pt at non HNM events outside of the Whm needing refresh II (which whm doesn't need at non hnm events, and even there can suffice without it if you brought decent support, which for some reason you haven't), can you figure out why yet? Whm is the better healer, sufficient enfeebler, better enhancer, only the worst nuker since SE nerfed Holy and hadn't given them any higher light damage magic until now. Rdm is the job getting bumped, not Whm.


Thats not a problem with healing. Thats a problem with RDM's core support functions, damage prevention, damage augmentation, and the like. In lower NM situations, there should be little difficulty or healing load needed with a RDM on board. And you can have your WHM or whatever you choose for your healer. Red Mage should be more about how to alter the situation, instead of being a WHM -1. Not to say it shouldn't be sufficient to heal at all, but it's strengths should come from its core functions FIRST, offensively and defensively. If it's sufficient on it's own as a healer, it should be because it's reducing the mob's offensive effectiveness and increasing the party's defensive/restorative effectiveness to the point where it's lower end cures can handle the strain.

[Neisan_Quetz]

1. Nuking fodders while being able to heal doesn't mean crap when a Sch or Blm can heal just as well as you can on fodder and nuke harder than you can. Whm meleeing fodder makes them even better at mp regeneration through Mystic Boon while still being able to deal damage, and Holy is faster casting then all of Rdm's nukes (probably the reason it was initially nerfed). It's pretty clear who's leading the race.

2. Heavy strike being nerfed tells you blu doesn't have a wide variety of spells viable on Harder content when they're married to /thf for physical spells. For healing and nuking and Spot tanking, they're still better than Rdm (better enmity generation for spot tanking). They lose in the buffing department, and is a wash in debuffing depending on what lands or not (and they're debuffs are at min equal to whm/sch or better than ours in the case of Auroral Drape - especially since it's two effects and even if one is resisted the other can still land).

3. Once again you completely ignore Whm is an acceptable healer enfeebler and melee on fodder without being tied to a specific subjob, and doesn't have mp concerns. Whm at 95 has 7 mp/tick refresh in gear, that's better than a pimped Rdm with refresh spell at 75 pre Wotg final reward.

[Hyrist]

You're arguing in circles again. If you'd bother to read my post I've already addressed all of this.


1. Nuking fodders while being able to heal doesn't mean crap when a Sch or Blm can heal just as well as you can on fodder and nuke harder than you can. Whm meleeing fodder makes them even better at mp regeneration through Mystic Boon while still being able to deal damage, and Holy is faster casting then all of Rdm's nukes (probably the reason it was initially nerfed). It's pretty clear who's leading the race.

Already stated RDM's melee functions need to be higher on fodder/low NMs
Issues with WHM meleeing as well as they do have more to do with the weakness of Sword (already talked about that.)
MP restoration between RDM and WHM is moot on low content. RDM still beats WHM outside abyssea in MP restoration, unless the WHM intends on Meleeing in full refresh build. RDM's convert is native.

And of course, you've completely ignored the other thread.

2. Heavy strike being nerfed tells you blu doesn't have a wide variety of spells viable on Harder content when they're married to /thf for physical spells. For healing and nuking and Spot tanking, they're still better than Rdm (better enmity generation for spot tanking). They lose in the buffing department, and is a wash in debuffing depending on what lands or not (and they're debuffs are at min equal to whm/sch or better than ours in the case of Auroral Drape - especially since it's two effects and even if one is resisted the other can still land).

Enfeebeling, even as it stands, isn't a wash. Dia III alone is irresistable and whatever other buffs that land do actually have an impact. Regardless, this isn't an issue with healing. This is an issue with RDM's core mechanics. Your argument should be that RDM's debuffs need to be more effective, not that they they should get Cure V because they're NOT effective.


3. Once again you completely ignore Whm is an acceptable healer enfeebler and melee on fodder without being tied to a specific subjob, and doesn't have mp concerns. Whm at 95 has 7 mp/tick refresh in gear, that's better than a pimped Rdm with refresh spell at 75 pre Wotg final reward.

Whm is tied, however, to gear, so having 7mp/tic in gear means nothing if you're trying to melee. RDM gets 7mp per tic through spell (with +2 pants), which makes your claim that WHM gets better refresh than RDM outside of WOTG moot. (WOTG reward doesn't function while engaged to begin with.)

And passable en-feebler on fodder is also incorrect on any fodder with 400 Defense or above.

Again, none of these are issues with healing, but issues with RDM's core mechanics. Giving them a better cure won't solve this problem so much as slap an aids covered bandaid on it.

[Motenten]

I agree with Hyrist that I would very much like to see some diversity in the means of countering the threat amongst other jobs. I never held much hope for it due to my disappointment in SE's development for many years, but the new devs make it seem like they might actually consider such ideas, so I'll proceed with a little hope.

So, my long post on the subject:

Arguments for Cure V -- some means of curing substantial amounts of damage in a reasonable amount of time. Why is it necessary? Because mobs can do a substantial amount of damage in a short period of time. For sustainability, you need to be able to counter that.

Whm counters the threat by having massive amounts of cure power at its command. It doesn't matter what the mob throws at you, the whm can patch you up, including mass curagas for multiple people.

Rdm doesn't have that raw cure power available to it. While I think the cure formulas should be slightly adjusted (as mentioned in previous posts), rdm's core has always focused on the enfeebling side. Why throw out mass curagas to heal a half dozen people of horrendous damage when you can instead prevent that damage from ever happening in the first place? Cut off the source of the damage and there's no need to scramble around healing afterwards.


Let's add a slight aside for context:

Methods of damage mitigation can first be split into two camps: effects on the source (eg: paralyze, bio), and effects on the target (eg: protect, phalanx). From there we can further diversify. Including various sources for the buffs and debuffs, covering enfeebling and enhancing, but skipping the obvious healing (remove debuffs from players):

Source
- Prevent action entirely: paralyze, intimidate, silence (magical), stun
- Mitigate power of action (physical): bio, bio II, bio III, Tidal Roar
- Mitigate power of action (magical): addle
- Reduce frequency of actions (melee): slow, slow II
- Reduce frequency of actions (TP moves): slow, slow II, auspice, inhibit TP, drain TP, lower TP (plague)
- Reduce frequency of actions (magical): slow, slow II, addle
- Reduce base stats used to do damage: Absorb- spells, elemental debuffs

Target
- Prevent attack from landing: utsusemi, blink, aerial armor
- Mitigate power of action (physical): protect 1/2/3/4/5, shining ruby, sentinel
- Mitigate power of action (magical): shell 1/2/3/4/5, shining ruby, sacrosanctity
- Reduce damage taken: stoneskin, cureskin, phalanx, earthen ward
- High end damage mitigation: scherzo, migawari, earthen armor
- Increased spell resistance (magic): bar- spells



On the target side, damage mitigation is usually done either as a ratio (defense) or a fixed value (phalanx, stoneskin). Stoneskin is ablative, so can have a moderately high value; it will eventually wear off. Phalanx is static and persistant, so has a low cap to keep it from being overpowering. Defense quickly reaches a usability limit because of the problems with the att/def calculations. The other option that most resort to is complete nullification of damage with Utsusemi or Seigan/Third Eye.

All of that caters to the whm mindset -- mitigate the damage that occurred, and patch up anything left over.

Rdm is more of an 'offensive' mage -- one based on action rather than reaction (not to be confused with doing damage vs reducing/curing damage). Yet its means of controlling the threat are actually somewhat limited.

Solo against a single target, rdm is formidable; with all the tools it has (bind, gravity, sleep, para, slow, addle, stoneskin, phalanx, cures, etc), rdm is pretty much in complete control of the fight. However as the need for a larger group grows, adding in tanks and DDs and buffers and such, the ability of the rdm to control the fight dwindles to prevent the rdm from being an overpowering element in the fight.

Regardless, though, they should be considered as powerful in their own right as a whm is in theirs. The problem is the nature of how damage is distributed.

Rdm works very well at reducing the damage a mob can do to a single target. Paralyze and slow and addle help reduce the frequency and severity of melee and single-target spell attacks. However players have already found a superior solution to most of those: Utsusemi (and, to an extent, Seigan/Third Eye).

The combination of the limitations on rdm's power to keep them from becoming overpowered early in the game's development with the ability to negate single-target attacks means that most of rdm's benefit is completely wasted.

Rdm's other weakness is an inability to do much about large AOE attacks. Paralyze and Slow only slow such moves down by reducing the amount of TP the mob gets. Only Addle really helps, by reducing magic accuracy on AOE spells, with Blind as a distant also-ran, given the accuracy bonus all TP moves supposedly get. The one supplemenatary way of controlling that is by subbing drk or blm for Stun (especially when combined with Chainspell).

Since AOE attacks naturally damage multiple people, and rdm has no curagas (or at best Curaga II if subbing /whm), there is a strong desire for another cure spell that can be used in conjunction with Cure IV to patch people up after such an attack. The real issue is that they shouldn't even be trying to patch people up after the fact; they should have prevented that attack in the first place, or mitigated it to a level that it is not a major concern.


Threats:
- Melee hits
- Physical TP moves (single target)
- Phsyical TP moves (AOE)
- Magical TP moves (single target)
- Magical TP moves (AOE)
- Spells (single target)
- Spells (AOE)


Rdm should have means of preventing or mitigating these threats.

Melee - Fairly well covered with slow and paralyze, with a small nod towards blind, though I'd say the potency is weaker than it could be. Players make up for it by using Utsusemi, but it would be preferable to say, "We've got a rdm; come /war."

Spells and magical TP moves: Addle helps some, though again the potency could be better.

TP moves - Pretty much nothing, unless you sub an appropriate job for Stun.

Options/suggestions:

1) Make Blind II powerful against TP moves (perhaps removing their innate accuracy bonus), but ineffective against melee attacks; Blind 1 should have its potency increased substantially, but not have any special effect on TP moves.

2) Plague - significant TP drain effect on the target. Can be complemented with /drk's Absorb-TP, though rdm's poor Dark Magic skill probably makes that an ineffective option (can Dark Magic skill be bumped up to maybe a C?).

3) A suggestion I've read regarding possible merits (not sure if it was in this thread or not) was to add "potency" merits for rdm, per element. Not MAB potency like blm, but +effect potency -- higher paralyze proc rate, higher slow, greater magic accuracy loss on addle, etc. On the other hand, restricting it per element seems to be too much over-specialization. Probably two merits: Tier 1 enfeeble potency (eg: Slow, Paralyze, Blind, etc) and Tier 2 enfeeble potency (Slow II, Paralyze II, Blind II, etc).

4) One easily noted option available: A Source-version counterpart to things like Scherzo and Sacrosanctity, but applying only to physical TP moves. Something like, if damage is going to do more than 75% of a target's HP, reduce damage by half (including for all other targets, if AOE). Would obviously have to tweak the numbers a bit for balance, but is easy enough as a general idea.

5) An idea that's probably more appropriate to sch: mass "physical" shadows -- a swarm of 'fake' bodies that act as extra distribution for -ga spells, since the damage per person is reduced based on the number of people/mobs hit. They don't affect normal physical hits like Utsusemi, though.

6) Confusion. Only a vague idea in my mind, but... A spell to cause the mob to target someone other than the person currently at the top of their enmity list (perhaps the #2). A fast spell (perhaps as fast as stun) that has a short duration (~10-15 seconds?) that can be used to temporarily give someone some relief, or act similar to thf's using Collaborator on mages when the mages pull hate. Does not change anyone's enmity, but does give people a window to use more specific hate-control measures. Also gives a window for curing someone at low health with some Cure IVs when you don't have a Cure V available.

7) A magical intimidate spell/effect that lowers the chance to use a TP move. We know that mobs that are at less than 300 TP have a "chance" to use a TP move every time they take or do damage. This would be a spell to lower the chance of the mob making that decision (until it reaches 300 TP anyway). May also increase the threshold for using a TP move when the mob is under 25% HP (eg: instead of using a TP move as soon as it gets 100 TP, it may wait til 125 TP).


All of that, I think, would go a long way towards re-energizing rdm's role as an enfeebler, and reducing the apparent need for another high-potency cure spell (Cure V).




And my condolences to Camate if he does actually take the time to translate all this.

[Swords]

1. Nuking fodders while being able to heal doesn't mean crap when a Sch or Blm can heal just as well as you can on fodder and nuke harder than you can. Whm meleeing fodder makes them even better at mp regeneration through Mystic Boon while still being able to deal damage, and Holy is faster casting then all of Rdm's nukes (probably the reason it was initially nerfed). It's pretty clear who's leading the race.



Your number 1 pretty much addressed to 95% of the reasons RDM is broken, but putting us back into a position to just cure as a WHM-1 wouldn't address a damn thing if everything else about RDM would be flawed. Even if the ToAU parties never came back (which is specifically why SE has been dancing around the issue so cautiously) that's all we would be fit for, as underutilized mage with broken enfeebling/enhancing system, poor melee support, with severe subjob dependency where we have to work twice as hard as any job to be half as good as any job with ONE or TWO worthwhile spells to assist the party with. Least back then when RDM was pigeonholed to just spamming cures/haste on the group we still had the ability to stand out in our core talents.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Changed my mind after reading Kine's post, but to answer Hyrist:

Whm isn't going to care about meleeing in refresh gear on fodder mobs when they can refill their mp bar with Boon... I don't know how you can't get this, it's the same thing for Smn meleeing on fodder, They aren't wearing refresh/perp gear while meleeing why? their WS takes care of MP.


Kine pretty much said anything I wished to say and then some, but from SE's response to Sams about being able to stop TP moves, their response was it would make the game too easy to mitigate TP moves - and then create monsters with unnamed AoE TP moves as regular attacks negating the usefulness of Slow and Paralyze (assuming paralyze even landed). A natural method to mitigate the damage would be very welcome if SE is dead set against giving Rdm and Sch the spells ever - Although it's starting to get pretty clear in my mind SE doesn't even care about buffing jobs anymore, they're just going to hand out nerfs so everyone can suck together.

[Hyrist]

Whm isn't going to care about meleeing in refresh gear on fodder mobs when they can refill their mp bar with Boon... I don't know how you can't get this, it's the same thing for Smn meleeing on fodder, They aren't wearing refresh/perp gear while meleeing why? their WS takes care of MP.

At the cost of their damage output, unfortunately.

Just like with RDM, with WHM, you can't have it both ways. If you're going to try to keep up with the curing load, you're going to have to make some pretty powerful sacrifices in damage, I'd argue more-so on WHM's end, who has to use Mystic Boon instead of the WS that basically makes their entire Melee argument.

RDM's melee on the other hand is mostly segregated from it's mage performance, which is both a curse and a benefit at the same time. We can swap out for our casts and we can carry our other mage duities relying mostly on just normal refresh and Convert, provided the duties are not at all heavy. Which is where our enfeebling should come into play. On fodder? Not so much, enfeebling itself isn't all that potent on targets that die quickly, which is why I agree our HoT game should be better than what it is. Spike Healing, however, should be more about prevention.


Rdm doesn't have that raw cure power available to it. While I think the cure formulas should be slightly adjusted (as mentioned in previous posts), rdm's core has always focused on the enfeebling side. Why throw out mass curagas to heal a half dozen people of horrendous damage when you can instead prevent that damage from ever happening in the first place? Cut off the source of the damage and there's no need to scramble around healing afterwards.

I made a suggestion of my own to help cures become more potent globally and to up the ante on support casting in general. It always stuck me as odd that the only 'mage support' spell Red Mage is able to distribute is Refresh. And providing a more potent HoT, along with more active damage reduction (I do like your ideas.) But I do believe there is a bit much in your suggestions to address the issue, just like perhaps my debuffing suggestions have a bit lenient.

For example, I believe the magical and physical reduction debuffs should be compiled into one, flash like debuff. This will make it reliant on the RDM's timing and attentiveness to reduce the named TP moves that can be so devastating.

And perhaps an ability to address the unnamed ones.

My revised idea of confusion was to be an ability that randomly causes any attack by the opponent, including TP moves, to occasionally target themselves. This could be modified as an idea that forces it to inflict damage upon itself once or for a very short period of time, but the general idea of the concept is causing the monster to inflict damage upon itself as part of the debuff's effect, and that infliction can become a TP move.

But my primary concern really is TP move attacks as far as our debuffing field. As far as healing itself, I did make a line of suggestions on another thread.

[Neisan_Quetz]

The only huge sacrifice is with Hverg since it deals 0 damage, Boon on fodder mobs even at 75 did respectable damage, seen pics of 900+ vs. libri. curing load versus fodder mobs while being able to keep up mp with Boon isn't as debilitating as you're making it out to be.

[Hyrist]

Colibri aren't necessairly the best refrence for damage these days, but I'll bite and say I haven't kept close track. I'd like to see more current results for damage compared to hexa though.

I do, however, find it very had to believe that a 30/50 1 hit is going to be comparable to a 6 hit crit based 20/20. (Of course , keeping the conversation of Abyssea, in which MP regen as a whole is moot and Hexa would dwarf Boon.) Sounds to me like the person pushing the numbers on Boon had a tough time pushing Hexa.

But I digress. I think Sword Deserves a better, non-weapon specific WS along the lines of Hexa. CDC is awesome, mind you, but that like saying Glory Slash and Uriel Blade are awesome. There's really no innate sword WS that displays mastery of the sword at all, in my opinion, just ones that places emphasis on the power of the sword wielded.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Meh, they did at least buff Vorpal at the minimum... but if they're serious about giving Rdm better melee prowess then exclusive WS access should be a given. Of course, not a priority imo.

[Motenten]

For example, I believe the magical and physical reduction debuffs should be compiled into one, flash like debuff.

I kept rdm's as physical-only since whm just got Sacrosanctity which, combined with their barspells and AF3 set augment bonus, makes it pretty clear that whm is the leader in preventing magical damage.


My revised idea of confusion was to be an ability that randomly causes any attack by the opponent, including TP moves, to occasionally target themselves. This could be modified as an idea that forces it to inflict damage upon itself once or for a very short period of time, but the general idea of the concept is causing the monster to inflict damage upon itself as part of the debuff's effect, and that infliction can become a TP move.

This, I feel, would be overpowered. It's like taking mnk's Perfect Counter (given the short duration), use the (vastly stronger) weapon the mob is using instead of the player's own weapon, and affect TP moves as well as melee strikes. And since it's a spell on the mob, it won't matter that the mnk himself is being targetted, or anyone else.

[Neisan_Quetz]

The only way I can think of that working is by allowing TP moves to occasionally fail (highly unlikely), or take longer to ready (possible?) and removing the damage to self part. Leave Slow for normal attacks and have paralyze affect NMs, even at a lowered rate if SE is that worried about Rdm's para locking NMs (I'll take some para over complete resists...).

[cidbahamut]

Coming out of a night of Voidwatch, I feel like this entire discussion is completely disconnected from the reality of how the game functions.

[Neisan_Quetz]

It's okay though, soon every DD job will have the viability of Pup, and all not Whm mages will be relegated to proc/stun mules. Then we can all be useless together before moving over to Failteen as part of SE's giant ploy to improve falling sales by alienating the playerbase.

/sarcasm

[Hyrist]

I kept rdm's as physical-only since whm just got Sacrosanctity which, combined with their barspells and AF3 set augment bonus, makes it pretty clear that whm is the leader in preventing magical damage.

I don't believe Damage prevention should be separated among job lines. But rather, like a lot of things, a shared utility that gets stronger as players with similar and interlocking skills work together. (Defense Down + Saboteur Dia III + Light Shot as an offensive example.)

And while WHM might lead currently in preventing magical damage, magic damage TP moves is still a glaringly powerful. No harm in giving RDM some additional tools to assist the ones WHM has.

[confusion], I feel, would be overpowered. It's like taking mnk's Perfect Counter (given the short duration), use the (vastly stronger) weapon the mob is using instead of the player's own weapon, and affect TP moves as well as melee strikes. And since it's a spell on the mob, it won't matter that the mnk himself is being targetted, or anyone else.[/QUOTE]


The only way I can think of that working is by allowing TP moves to occasionally fail (highly unlikely), or take longer to ready (possible?) and removing the damage to self part. Leave Slow for normal attacks and have paralyze affect NMs, even at a lowered rate if SE is that worried about Rdm's para locking NMs (I'll take some para over complete resists...).

For confusion, Neisan's idea is a possibility, both of them actually. Dealing damage to themselves I can see where the implementation could be overpowered, keeping the base damage where it was. Though I was more of the mind that the return damage would have a much lesser effect when self-inflicted. The move only doing a minor percentage of the damage it would have done to the player to itself.

As far as the 'takes TP moves longer to use.' I was actually pushing such a status effect into a melee-orientated debuff to offset TP feed arguments before Temper came out. I can see something similar still working in the form of a spell, and would work quite well with stun, flash, or other preventative or reduction based spells. Although, I would still like to see our own stun/flash based enfeeble of high potency, short duration designed to counter TP moves.

[Hyrist]

Different subject, different post.


Meh, they did at least buff Vorpal at the minimum... but if they're serious about giving Rdm better melee prowess then exclusive WS access should be a given. Of course, not a priority imo.

Right now my mindset is "while you're there..." as they are revising Weapon Skills. With Magian Weapons, heck, even as early as the first Relics, they've always acknowledge that RDM's primary 'weapon' is Sword (Sword and Dagger pre Mythics.) PLD and RDM were essentially it for sword before BLU unless you wanted to count Ridill use before the 2H update. And now all 3 of them seem rather lacking before CDC (Vorpal Blade still falls behind Rampage, let alone Evisceration, Dancing Edge, Hexa Strike, etc.)

While they are working on adjustments I hope they can put sword itself into good standing among other weapons, and RDM should be included in that IMO, priority or no. It saves the melee-enthusiasts any conflict in asking for a seperate update just to pull RDM's own WSes back to par (partly by giving them the EX ones), when it can be done now while they're re-balancing the entire set. Do it while it's convenient to.

Honestly, giving Red Mage respectable melee damage isn't going to change its HNM role, which I think is what most hardcore endgame players are worried most about. No one bats an eye at a RDM meleeing fodder in an Abyssea alliance, or small-time events, and weaker NMs are usually done amongst friends or solo anyways. And I've got no issues putting my sword aside when it's time to pop a boss mob.

Now if you were to ask me to make a decision between RDM's enhancing/enfeebling game and improving their melee, I'd lean towards enhancing/enfeebling. But I don't believe such a decision has to be made, nor do I think that they're actually exclusive of each other, though, SE seems to have made it that way with Temper this time around.

But I've always viewed RDM as a control class, something that pro-actively molds the situation to the preference of the players. I've always believed Melee had a place in that, albeit limited to lesser targets. (Melee Fodder, Magic Bosses) But like my opinion on healing, it should take a lesser role to our core concept, which is enfeebling/enhancing. (That does not mean I believe RDM should be a cycle-bot, however. There is still some hard work that needs to be done in regards to how our buffs assist in a group setting, IMO.)

[Arcalimo]

To people that says that rdm dont need cure V... stop a few and think before say something please..
Just imagine a Blm99/rdm49 (refresh, haste, cure III, cure IV, convert, paralyze, blind, slow, sleep/II, sleepga/II, break/ga, stun, Tier V nukes, Meteor, Comet), is that a blm? i see it more like a Rdm+3 if SE continues going in the same way they're going.
Blms will have the same healing tools than rdm (but lolregen2), and at the same time will be the best nuker, and nearly the best enfeebler because enfeebles that matter won't land on enemies that matter anything, besides that para1 is nearly the same as para2 (everytime i cast it @90 on my whm or blm makes my rdm cry in a corner <.<) blind1 > lolblind2, and slow2 doesn't really make a big difference over slow1. (Don't say that rdm has more enf. skill because i have yet to see a mob where i can land something on rdm and not on whm or blm).

Rdm was meant to be good at healing and at nuking, but not the better on anything, that's okay.
Nuke wise we are ok, but healing wise we should be better than blms, smns, schs, pups, insertanyjob with /whm or /rdm.(Could add blu to that list too, but i think is ok that they should be in of the top of healers, but that should be by their main job blue magic healing spells, still, blus having the same healing tools that a rdm with just /rdm or /whm is bad).
Enfeebling wise, we need better enfeebles that really make a difference over tier 1 enfeebles and actually make them to work on worthwhile stuff, not just on shit that is dead before the enfeeble goes off...
And melee wise, instead of losing time adding crappy stuff, start adding us on some wothwhile melee gear...

Adding cure V to Rdm's wouln't unbalance the game at all, and it's indeed a need.
Plus we have already seen spells not being as effective when used as main job than as support job (aka. utsu: ni), removing the emnity effect would be too much imo, could bring back rdm tank tho lol. but removing the vit modifier or adding a cap to don't make it as strong as casting it as whm main is enough, whm would remain as top healer (not only because of cure v,vi, but because of solace and their ability to remove negative status quicker), and at the same time would make rdm superior at healing than other /rdm jobs, as it should be.

off topic but, about the "new type of healing magic" i think it should go to sch instead, even if they remain with cure IV, if the enhanced effect of regen effect that light arts will give is strong enough (something like a helix cure to make them as effective as a rdm but w/o being a copy) it would fit their role pretty well imo, with cure IV, sometimes rapturable, to support that regen/helix magic.

[FrankReynolds]

A couple thoughts:
Adding Cure V to Red Mage will not make White Mage any less desired / useful.

Adding Cure V to Red Mage requires almost 0 programming /effort, and would therefor not impact the Development teams ability to continue work on fixing Red Mage's other issues.

[Hyrist]

To people that says that rdm dont need cure V... stop a few and think before say something please..

Right there you start the conversation off on a bad note. This takes away from your entire argument, implying that those who oppose Cure V haven't thought about it for a long... long time.


Rdm was meant to be good at healing and at nuking, but not the better on anything, that's okay.
Nuke wise we are ok, but healing wise we should be better than blms, smns, schs, pups,

We should not be better than Scholars at healing, in fact I'd argue we should be worse, as we we have a different toolset.

We are better than puppet-masters due to the AI problems they have, but I'm guessing you haven't been in the company of them long.

Summoners are debatable, given that they have support and healing function with their avatars. I'd actually like to argue that Summoner should be better at their healing role than where they are, and at bare minimum comparable in that role.

You left out Dancer and Blue Mage.

Again, this isn't an argument against making RDM and SCH better healers. It's about a 10 second cooldown spell with easily over 1k+ heal results with the hate of Cure III. There's no balancing in that spell and to give RDM and SCH the ability to spam it (which with their MP endurance they could easily do.) WOULD seriously upset the balance on several fronts.

1. Giving RDM Cure V would destroy the case argument for better buffs and debuffs. "Why do you need better de/buffs? You have Cure V. Just heal the damage."

2. It detracts from every other healer and healing magic by making their capacity to heal a determent to them, as it had to be balanced against their capacity to do damage. And as all it would take is 1 Cure V spammer to cover the entire party that utility becomes unneeded, unwanted, and ultimately unused. That is bad game design. Better to give RDM an ability to globally improve healing as a whole. (Or make it a self-buff if people are worried.)

Red Mage isn't lacking in cure Potency anymore. Most mage jobs can now cap it. Unless they regard healing on a more global level to make it useful beyond a certain key jobs, giving RDM and/or SCH Cure V will actually cause more harm than it's worth. It's a copout to larger problems the game is suffering right now.

And among those, I'd say the HoT (Healing over Time) aspects are suffering much worse than spike healing, as Regens really didn't scale well with HP gains.

The largest of these problems with Cure V is that Red Mage needs a better buff/debuff game before they need better heals, and SE needs to carefully balance that. Right now I cannot see Red Mage being both potent at reducing damage and posses Cure V to restore it. Even if you say it will be balanced among outside sources, which I disagree with wholeheartedly, that still dosen't change the fact that Cure V undermine Red Mage's core functions, as listed in the Manifesto.

I'll be willing to change that opinion if SE makes a real attempt to balance our Enfeebles better and fails. But I will not undermine the effort to make Red Mage's core purpose more potent and stand on it's own right by requesting a spell that will do just that in one fell swoop.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Why the heck should we be worse at healing than a job who learns cures after us...? It's okay for them to be better nukers and crowd control but both jobs can't be better healers then Brd and Blm, I'm sorry what?

My Taru Rdm is 10 points shy of 1.2k HP, 2 Cure 4s don't cut it on myself. On a race with the lowest HP pool. You're crazy if you think it cuts it for anything worth a damn.

[Mageoholic]

Dude shut up. WHM can heal just as long as either RDM or SCH while subbing /RDM or /SCH, they have access to the exact same MP endurance tool set as either job, as well as their own unique MP savings set with AFv3+2 pants.

As for the wonderful gem about our enfeebles. Our enfeebles are great, the issue is that SE has made everything either immune, or redundant to cast on (see TP moves being used as regular attacks).

You just don't want C5 because you are too afraid you might be shoved into exclusively being pink mage again. You are worried you won't be able to pull out your little sword and swing away. Christ dude stop playing the limitation card on one of the most useful roles a RDM can full fill. DD are a dime a dozen, healers are not. You do the math.

[Swords]

You just don't want C5 because you are too afraid you might be shoved into exclusively being pink mage again.

You can't blame him, most people who play RDM on at least a regular basis back in those days vehemently despised that role we were pidgonholed into. And while I agree to a point with Hyrist, the pro-cure V people are right in their arguments too. WHM does have access to most of the mp reduction tools they didn't have available back then and a plethora of new abilities that tbh would be overkill in most non-abyssean situations, but here's where Hyrist's point starts to stand out because most non-abyssean content does not need absurd amounts of healing, and with access to Accession via /SCH, it would let us handle most situations allowing RDM to possibly debunk WHM for all but the most difficult content like back then.

And yes I know, both sides have made their arguments, but the fact is SE is still trotting around the fear of jobs stealing other's roles (hypocritical I know), making RDM overpowered in too many aspects, and that they're trying desperately to prevent the era of Avesta 2.0 from occurring.

[Neisan_Quetz]

And that was then. This is now. Welcome to the future, you can park your versatility at the door and get in line with everyone else waiting for SE's 'adjustments' to be handed out.

If your non abyssea situations is old content then yes, Cure V is overkill. For stuff a Blu can solo.

[Swords]

98% of the game IS old content, and besides what point has this game changed in retrospect from now and back then, differences now is most everyone got buffed, some more levels, and some got a sj boost. Concept is still the same, go in and zerg everything the game has to offer it doesn't matter how good the job is as long as it's good enough to do what we need it for.

The game needs to be stepped up enough imo to where zerg tactics can't be abused and things pose a considerable challenge, before we get something like Cure V which could unintendedly hurt our job growth in the long run. Or at the very least WAIT until they fix a majority of the other RDM issues as a whole before giving us Cure V.

I'd really hate to see good ideas for RDM go overlooked because they said "Well they could really use this but they got Cure V now that might make them too powerful" speech.

[FrankReynolds]

We should not be better than Scholars at healing, in fact I'd argue we should be worse, as we we have a different toolset.

Yes we should.


It's about a 10 second cooldown spell with easily over 1k+ heal results with the hate of Cure III. There's no balancing in that spell and to give RDM and SCH the ability to spam it (which with their MP endurance they could easily do.) WOULD seriously upset the balance on several fronts.

My White Mage has plenty of refresh, I abuse the hell out of Cure V and VI.


1. Giving RDM Cure V would destroy the case argument for better buffs and debuffs. "Why do you need better de/buffs? You have Cure V. Just heal the damage."

No it wouldn't. Curing is not the only thing that Red Mage is supposed to be good at.


2. It detracts from every other healer and healing magic by making their capacity to heal a determent to them, as it had to be balanced against their capacity to do damage. And as all it would take is 1 Cure V spammer to cover the entire party that utility becomes unneeded, unwanted, and ultimately unused. That is bad game design. Better to give RDM an ability to globally improve healing as a whole. (Or make it a self-buff if people are worried.)

White Mage would still be needed for anything that does AOE damage or massive debuffs. White Mage is already not really necessary for anything that does not. Nothing changes.


And among those, I'd say the HoT (Healing over Time) aspects are suffering much worse than spike healing, as Regens really didn't scale well with HP gains.

Healing over time sucks because when you are fighting something that requires large amounts of healing, you need to get players topped off as fast as possible. If you have time for HP to regenerate on a per tic basis, you probably don't really need much healing to begin with.


The largest of these problems with Cure V is that Red Mage needs a better buff/debuff game before they need better heals, and SE needs to carefully balance that. Right now I cannot see Red Mage being both potent at reducing damage and posses Cure V to restore it. Even if you say it will be balanced among outside sources, which I disagree with wholeheartedly, that still dosen't change the fact that Cure V undermine Red Mage's core functions, as listed in the Manifesto.

If Cure v would conflict with "Red Mage's core functions" than so would Cure IV, III, II, etc., this is simply not true.


I'll be willing to change that opinion if SE makes a real attempt to balance our Enfeebles better and fails. But I will not undermine the effort to make Red Mage's core purpose more potent and stand on it's own right by requesting a spell that will do just that in one fell swoop.

This guy nailed it.


You just don't want C5 because you are too afraid you might be shoved into exclusively being pink mage again. You are worried you won't be able to pull out your little sword and swing away.

[Hyrist]

Skipping the obvious flame baiting, and keeping myself from repeating myself too many times...

I don't see how hard it is to accept getting spells that would remove the need for cure V over simply getting Cure V. If we're better at preventing damage, you don't need as strong of a healer, and if for some reason you do get RDM and WHM together, there is less overlap going on. Doing this would be more healthy for the job, and job dynamic than simply giving RDM Cure V. Role redundancy has often been a problem with RDM, and stepping away from the higher tier cures and focusing more on damage prevention would do a great deal to solve this problem.

Topped off with Kinimatic's suggestion to up the current cures we have. (Something I believe we could receive in buff form.)And some of the good debuff ideas presented, I've yet to hear an actual clear argument against this alternative.

In fact, the only arguments coming out are at me personally (and are often Red Herrings like the one RCD tried to make.)

So here's the question:Why not debuffs? Why does it have to be specifically, Cure V?

Because the only argument I've heard so far for Cure V that wouldn't be addressed by added cure capacity over time, and damage prevention is that Cure IV is available via subjob, which I can understand. (But what prevents SE from just raising Cure IV on RDM to 50? I doubt that'll be harmful to the low level dynamic considering how people level nowadays.) My alternative to that would be a buff to enhance our cures. Perhaps it can be a RDM specific buff that conflicts with temper.

You're free to disagree with whatever concerns I have with Cure V, but with the spell in contention (Not just by members of the player-base but obviously by the developers as well considering they've held out this long) and a clear alternative route that would be better overall, why not take it?


Or at the very least WAIT until they fix a majority of the other RDM issues as a whole before giving us Cure V.

I'd really hate to see good ideas for RDM go overlooked because they said "Well they could really use this but they got Cure V now that might make them too powerful" speech.

This is the core point, for those who can't read what I'm writing on virtue that 'it's Hyrist saying it'.

There was so much hassle when Temper came out on how it was a waste of development time/etc. But do we really have a unified idea as to what we're to do with Red Mage? A number of you just seem to want to convert the job into just a healer. Is this your desire or vision for the class or are you just trying to find a solution to the frustration of not being able to top off player's hit points?

[cidbahamut]

If we're better at preventing damage, you don't need as strong of a healer
Because having Stun always let Black Mages be awesome healers, right?



So here's the question:Why not debuffs? Why does it have to be specifically, Cure V?

Why not both? Someone other than White Mage getting Cure V isn't going to dethrone them no matter how badly you want to convince yourself and others.

[Stylin]

Why not both? Someone other than White Mage getting Cure V isn't going to dethrone them no matter how badly you want to convince yourself and others.

All I'm seeing here is "lol just trust me guys srsly". Sounds more like you're trying your hardest to fool yourself into believing RDM won't be the only healer again.

If RDM got Cure 5 sometime between 75 and 80 I would have had no reason to level WHM. Sure Cureskin is nice but you can live without it. That's the entire bulk of the problem. For all the pros WHM has for raw curing you can live without it.

It's really disappointing to think that some of you people only want Cure 5 because "You're not useful anymore", like it's a panacea for your problems. Even more so that you trick yourself into believing anybody that wants to pursue a different route is a dirty RDMelee commie.

[Hyrist]

First part is flame-baiting, Cid. Stun saves lives, saves MP, etc... we should have more than just stun, etc,etc. You know better.


Why not both? Someone other than White Mage getting Cure V isn't going to dethrone them no matter how badly you want to convince yourself and others.

The biggest issue, And what I believe SE's holding out on us for? It's simply too much. Too much for RDM to be a highly competent healer and be able to severely hamper the monster as well.

My personal fear, just talking about RDM in a vaccume, is that reacing Cure V for RDM will kill the progress that desperately needs to be made for Enfeebeling and Enhancing game, which is quite capable of handeling the problem on its own. For the job, I want to have those enfeebles not be immune, and to be able to greatly reduce their target's effectiveness. I desire that ability far more than being given paltry status reductions and then being given Cure V to make up for it.

But if we're going to go with both, just for the sake of outreach here, lets focus on the debuffs first and foremost. Being competent in healing should come secondary to being competent in the role that's supposed to be our specialty.

[cidbahamut]

Well all I'm seeing is a bunch of people trying their hardest to ignore just how incredibly powerful White Mage really is.

[Hyrist]

I'm not ignoring it so much as more worried for RDM. Unless you're proposing a nerf to whm?

WHM being incredibly powerful in the healing game just puts a much brighter light on how other jobs really aren't doing so well, like RDM in general. And I'm not all that opposed to WHM being an increidbly powerful healer, so long as other aspects of jobs that are not healing specalists get to be powerful in their own fields, like RDM's enfeebeling. SCH's magical versatility, etc.

The general concept is to raise the other classes up to be just as potent as WHM, but in their own departments.

[cidbahamut]

First part is flame-baiting, Cid. Stun saves lives, saves MP, etc... we should have more than just stun, etc,etc. You know better.


My point stands. Your argument is that an increase in damage mitigation will eliminate the need for additional healing. Black Mage with a sensible sub gains access to more damage mitigation options than we do, yet it was never enough to offset the healing deficiency.

They're holding out on us because we're going to kick so much ass at enfeebling? I guess I'm more skilled at pattern recognition than you.




But if we're going to go with both, just for the sake of outreach here, lets focus on the debuffs first and foremost. Being competent in healing should come secondary to being competent in the role that's supposed to be our specialty.
I agree with this statement, but I strongly disagree with your approach to it. (bludgeon ourselves in the face repeatedly so we can beg for nice things).

[cidbahamut]

I'm not ignoring it so much as more worried for RDM. Unless you're proposing a nerf to whm?

White Mage could use a nerf, but I think the entire FFXI community would lynch me if I tried to suggest that. Besides, I like having them around.

[Hyrist]

My point stands. Your argument is that an increase in damage mitigation will eliminate the need for additional healing. Black Mage with a sensible sub gains access to more damage mitigation options than we do, yet it was never enough to offset the healing deficiency.

... Are we forgetting about Chainspell Stun? Because I'm fairly sure that offers quite a deal of damage mitigation, as it allows for zerg tactics whenever mobs are not outright immune to stun. Granted, niche situation is niche, but between intelligent spot stuns and Chainspell stuns, you could get some pretty good damage prevention on from it. It's just not enough, and that's really the point I think we're both making - is that right now, our enfeebles don't cut it.

The reason why Stun isn't offsetting our healing deficiency is two things. One, stun is not by any means a new mechanic (and it doesn't prevent TP moves from just happening immediately after stun.), and really, we need new debuffs beyond just rehashing old ones. Some more potent means of regarding TP attacks, (especially the annoying unnamed ones.) And two, stun doesn't kill TP moves, it just stops them temporarily. We'd need som

You'd like to see that supplemented with stronger cures, cure V being the representation of that. I'd rather us get as potentially overpowered as WHM is with cures, with enfeebles, then SE throw us for a loop with an endgame that is actually hard, and requires both.

[Swords]

White Mage could use a nerf, but I think the entire FFXI community would lynch me if I tried to suggest that. Besides, I like having them around.

It may happen, I imagine the only reason SE isn't addressing the apparent major balancing issues at this moment is due to the final level cap coming up. I mean why "fix it" now if it'll just get broken again in a few more months right?

[Neisan_Quetz]

Yes, once every 2 hours. Oh wait, that's as viable as Sch's.



98% of the game IS old content

You missed 2 whole updates didn't you?

[Hyrist]

Yes, once every 2 hours. Oh wait, that's as viable as Sch's.


Granted, niche situation is niche,

inb4u :p

I like how we say the same things, but instead of looking at what we have objectively, it gets pulled out of my statements as if they weren't even there, and rehashed in a negative light, like it somehow just disproved what I said.

As far as WHM nerfs, I'm not sure what they're going to do there. Honestly I'm sure everyone would like the solution to all their problems to happen ASAP first priority ,etc etc. But in reality, I don't think we'll be seeing any semblance of balance to come through the pipelines until after the 99 cap and after the merit overhaul.

And I don't believe we'll likely get Cure V until after that point, as they'd rather not give us a spell then wind up nerfing or taking it away (you could say again, but we technically never REALLY had it.)

[Neisan_Quetz]

No, we're not saying the same thing because you believe Cure V will 'destroy' Whm - as if not already being the most versatile mage for healing and support means they're suddenly going to drop down to useless because 2 other jobs can cast 1 of their Curing spells with less benefits to help the party - sorry no it won't. SE's healing over time is Regen spells and from the looks of it, they just gave a regen boost to.... Sch.

[Hyrist]

Oh, look, another Red Herring.

Saying the same things about Chainspell Stun =/= saying the same things about our views of Cure V. Don't try to correlate the two. I wasn't, and you're jumping points to try to make it seem that I was.

As far as Regen Boost to Scholar, I'll have to see just how powerful those boosts are to see if they are going to offset the lack of Cure V for them.

Issue with "Cure V won't break WHM". Even if I agree with that point, there's still several beneath it, like cure V breaking RDM which is my primary concern. I don't want some cop-out for our job 'being more useful' instead of getting more enfeebles that actually matter.

[Swords]

Neisan I was the one parading the thought of the ToAU parties happening again, but in any case I'd like to ask a simple plausible question.

IF RDM had cure V, the player was a competit healer, was MORE than capable of handling the situation on RDM, but also had WHM leveled which is better in every way to support the group even though it would be utter overkill. Would you ask the player to switch to WHM?

[Neisan_Quetz]

Oh, look, another Red Herring.

Saying the same things about Chainspell Stun =/= saying the same things about our views of Cure V. Don't try to correlate the two. I wasn't, and you're jumping points to try to make it seem that I was.

As far as Regen Boost to Scholar, I'll have to see just how powerful those boosts are to see if they are going to offset the lack of Cure V for them.

Issue with "Cure V won't break WHM". Even if I agree with that point, there's still several beneath it, like cure V breaking RDM which is my primary concern. I don't want some cop-out for our job 'being more useful' instead of getting more enfeebles that actually matter.

How the hell is learning higher tiers in magic without being the best in that field of magic a cop-out?



Neisan I was the one parading the thought of the ToAU parties happening again, but in any case I'd like to ask a simple plausible question.

IF RDM had cure V, the player was a competit healer, was MORE than capable of handling the situation on RDM, but also had WHM leveled which is better in every way to support the group even though it would be utter overkill. Would you ask the player to switch to WHM?

Why is options a bad thing? I'd tell them come on the job they're most comfortable on. That isn't the case right now. For not soloable content it isn't 'You can come support on Rdm or Sch or Whm' with Whm being the clear choice for harder fights, it's 'Oh you have Rdm/Sch leveled? That's nice, come Whm unless you feel like dicking around'.

[cidbahamut]

People who have White Mage and Red Mage leveled get asked to play White Mage.

[Hyrist]

How the hell is learning higher tiers in magic without being the best in that field of magic a cop-out?

You need to actually read what I've been writing, as you're asking questions I've answered many, many times.


My personal fear, just talking about RDM in a vaccume, is that reacing Cure V for RDM will kill the progress that desperately needs to be made for Enfeebeling and Enhancing game, which is quite capable of handeling the problem on its own. For the job, I want to have those enfeebles not be immune, and to be able to greatly reduce their target's effectiveness. I desire that ability far more than being given paltry status reductions and then being given Cure V to make up for it.


1. Giving RDM Cure V would destroy the case argument for better buffs and debuffs. "Why do you need better de/buffs? You have Cure V. Just heal the damage."


2. It distracts from more job defining aspects both SCH and RDM should be their respective specialists in.

Please try to keep up with the conversation. It's not as if I'm being inconsistent here.

[Hyrist]

Neisan I was the one parading the thought of the ToAU parties happening again, but in any case I'd like to ask a simple plausible question.

IF RDM had cure V, the player was a competit healer, was MORE than capable of handling the situation on RDM, but also had WHM leveled which is better in every way to support the group even though it would be utter overkill. Would you ask the player to switch to WHM?

Actually, that's a good argument for Neisan and Cid's case. Right now? WHM, because RDM's core mechanics are in such a bad state. But I cannot for the life of me shake off the feeling that if the idea of RDM 'MUST HAVE CURE V NOWZ' isn't killed, we're never going to see RDM being made into an actually powerful enfeebler where it matters. It'll forever be good against monsters that don't matter, and there for Refresh II/Haste bot for any event beyond it. And Cure V will just be another 'Lookie here! I have this too, pweese invite mee!' gimick, just like Stun is.

RDM needs to be brought into its own. Its enfeebles need to make a signifi- no critical impact upon the monster for it to be anything but a joke job in HNM game. That requires work on the ones we have, and additional ones to cover the areas we currently don't. Cure V doesn't do this, and it can prevent it from happening, as the developers could easily be too frightened to give RDM both.

[Swords]

Why is options a bad thing? I'd tell them come on the job they're most comfortable on. That isn't the case right now. For not soloable content it isn't 'You can come support on Rdm or Sch or Whm' with Whm being the clear choice for harder fights, it's 'Oh you have Rdm/Sch leveled? That's nice, come Whm unless you feel like dicking around'.

Options are never a bad thing, but say lets do a slight role reversal RDM is the king of single cures now if there was anything that needed RAW curing power RDM was the go to job even though it's cure power is overkill, but WHM still has all of it's other advantages high regens, ga's, cureskin, auspice, etc. Would you still ask the RDM to swap to WHM? (remembering na's/ga's are subbable via /SCH)

[Neisan_Quetz]

Yes, so they can come /thf or /blm and still have -nas and -gas.

Having a field of magic you specialize in does not mean you can't have other fields of magic you can perform sufficiently in. This is not the situation we have right now.

[FrankReynolds]

In fact, the only arguments coming out are at me personally

No, they aren't. I'm sure you are a great guy, and very good at FFXI. I still think your wrong about Cure V though.


So here's the question:Why not debuffs? Why does it have to be specifically, Cure V?

As I mentioned in the post above this one, Cure V does nothing to hinder our Enfeebling role.


Because the only argument I've heard so far for Cure V that wouldn't be addressed by added cure capacity over time, and damage prevention is that Cure IV is available via subjob, which I can understand.

also just above this post I said:
Healing over time sucks because when you are fighting something that requires large amounts of healing, you need to get players topped off as fast as possible. If you have time for HP to regenerate on a per tic basis, you probably don't really need much healing to begin with.


You're free to disagree with whatever concerns I have with Cure V, but with the spell in contention (Not just by members of the player-base but obviously by the developers as well considering they've held out this long) and a clear alternative route that would be better overall, why not take it?


Because your method is convoluted. Adding Red Mage to a spell is easy. Making new spells that replace the need to heal from spike damage is a lot harder and far more likely to overpower the job in general, not just piss off white Mages.


There was so much hassle when Temper came out on how it was a waste of development time/etc. But do we really have a unified idea as to what we're to do with Red Mage? A number of you just seem to want to convert the job into just a healer. Is this your desire or vision for the class or are you just trying to find a solution to the frustration of not being able to top off player's hit points?

Nobody wants to make healing our main function. Cure V wouldn't do that.

[Urteil]

Last time DRK got a stun was 37.

[Motenten]

Since those arguing for Cure V are doing a poor job of it, I thought I'd play devil's advocate and weigh in with a counter to Hyrist.

Comparitive healing performance.

One point that must be addressed is the apparent full maintainability of the MP cost of these cures compared to whm's potential. Whm can spam Cure V all day and barely notice. Rdm and sch have better MP recovery options than whm, so they 'should' be able to perform at the same level, at least with respect to this one spell.

First, we must consider MP expenditure rate. For these purposes, we will assume that the mage is casting nothing but Cure V.


Amount cured per spell:

Note: Found an error in the wiki. The scale values given for Cure V after the soft cap are half what they should be; between soft cap and hard cap, scale should be 2 instead of 1; after hard cap, scale should be 17/3 instead of 17/6. This somewhat impacts the comparitive scale I used in my earlier posts, and I may need to revisit them.

Assumed Cure Potency of 50% for each; gear for rdm and sch only guesstimated.

Whm:
- Assumed capped healing magic of 396 + 25 gear
- 87 mnd (estimate) +54 gear
- 80 vit (estimate)
- Power: 755
- Cured: 1086

Rdm:
- Light Arts healing magic of 376
- 83 mnd (estimate) +54 gear?
- 77 vit (estimate)
- Power: 752
- Cured: 1084

Sch:
- Light Arts healing magic of 376
- 81 mnd (estimate) +49 gear?
- 77 vit (estimate)
- Power: 731
- Guaranteed light weather: +10%
- Cured: 1181




Cost per spell:
Whm:
- 135 base
- Assumed /sch for Light Arts: -13
- Conserve MP: -8.5
- AF3+2 pants: -54
- Total: 59.5

Rdm:
- 135 base
- Assumed /sch for Light Arts: -13
- Conserve MP: -8.5
- Total: 113.5

Sch:
- 135 base
- Assumed Light Arts: -13
- Conserve MP: -8.5
- Total: 113.5


MP Recovery rates:
Whm:
- /sch Sublimation ~~3 MP/tick equivalent
- Refresh gear of 5/tick (excluding Moonshade Earring and refresh hairpin as being on the greater rarity side)
- Total: 8/tick

Rdm:
- Refresh II - 7 MP/tick
- Refresh gear of 5/tick
- Total: 12/tick

Sch:
- Sublimation ~~ 7 MP/tick equivalent (8 at 95? need to check)
- Refresh gear of 4/tick
- Total: 11/tick


Time required to recover MP spent:
Whm:
- 59.5 / 8 = 7.4 ticks

Rdm:
- 113.5 / 12 = 9.5 ticks

Sch:
- 113.5 / 11 = 10.3 ticks


Recast for Cure V with a bit of haste is about 2.5 ticks.

Net MP cost if recasting every 4 ticks:

Whm:
- 3.4 * 8 = 27.2 MP

Rdm:
- 5.5 * 12 = 66 MP

Sch:
- 6.3 * 11 = 69.3 MP


Time it would take to run out of MP:

Whm:
- ~1000 MP / 27.2 = 37.8 4-tick blocks = 441 seconds (7 min, 21 seconds)

Rdm:
- ~1800 MP / 66 = 27.3 4-tick blocks = 327 seconds (5 min, 27 seconds)

Sch (assumed /rdm):
- ~1800 MP / 69.3 = 26.0 4-tick blocks = 312 seconds (5 min, 12 seconds)

Though sch can extend that a bit with more strategems than the others have available, and shouldn't need to cast quite as often due to higher cure potential.


If the rdm is subbing /whm for curagas or /blm for stun, its values would be revised to:

Cost per spell:
Rdm/whm:
- 135 base
- Total: 135
Rdm/blm:
- 135 base
- Conserve MP: -9.5
- Total: 125.5

Time required to recover MP spent:
Rdm/whm:
- 135 / 12 = 11.25 ticks
Rdm/blm:
- 125.5 / 12 = 10.5 ticks


Net MP cost if recasting every 4 ticks:
Rdm/whm:
- 7.25 * 12 = 87 MP
Rdm/whm:
- 6.5 * 12 = 78 MP

Time it would take to run out of MP:
Rdm/whm:
- ~1800 MP / 87 = 20.7 4-tick blocks = 248 seconds (4 min, 8 seconds)
Rdm/blm:
- ~1800 MP / 78 = 23.1 4-tick blocks = 277 seconds (4 min, 37 seconds)



Overall, you're looking at 4-5 minutes of near-constant Cure V spam before rdm or sch would exhaust themselves and whm's longevity would give it the lead.

At what point would Convert equalize the picture? In the above where you're exhausting yourself in about 5 minutes, that means each MP pool only lasted about 2.5 minutes, and you burned out your reserve long before it could be replenished.

Let's say fully merited rdm Convert. You need one MP pool to last 8 min 20 sec so that you can Convert back to a full pool. So, taking half the MP used (900) and making it last 500 seconds means a net loss of no more than 1.8 MP/second, or 5.4 MP/tick. Given 12 MP/tick refresh, that means you can use 17.4 MP per tick.

Number of ticks a Cure V would need to be spread across to make it cost 17.4 MP per tick:
rdm/sch: 6.5
rdm/whm: 7.8
rdm/blm: 7.2

So something like 20-23 seconds between Cure V casts in order to last a Convert cycle.

For sch, it has to last 600 seconds, meaning 1.5 MP/second or 4.5 MP/tick. With 11/tick refresh, that's 15.5 MP/tick usable. Shortest interval for Cure V in order to last a Convert cycle: 22 seconds.

Rate at which a whm could use Cure V without exhausting themselves: one Cure V every 22 seconds.

So for perpetual longevity when treated in isolation, all three jobs have about the same restriction on casting rates, in the 20-22 second region, though rdm/sch seems to have a bit of an edge.

Suppose you add a brd to the mix, and get Ballad II & III with +2 Ballad from AF3 and instrument, totalling 9 MP/tick. How does that affect each of the above?

Whm: 10.5 seconds per Cure V for perpetual MP
Rdm/sch: 13 seconds per Cure V for perpetual MP
Rdm/whm: 15.3 seconds per Cure V for perpetual MP
Rdm/blm: 14.3 seconds per Cure V for perpetual MP
Sch: 13.9 seconds per Cure V for perpetual MP

And now whm is back to having a significant edge over the others in the rate at which it can spam spells, being able to cast about 25%-30% more often. Because of whm's lower spell costs and lower starting refresh, additional refresh is significantly more useful for them.


Other features that whm brings to the table that the others do not: Cure VI (a huge waste of MP, but can be useful in emergencies), Curagas (situationally useful), cureskin (useful in some circumstances, but doesn't work with curagas), better barspells, and situationally useful -na advantages (Esuna and Sacrifice).

Rdm brings the potential for Stun if subbing /blm, and both rdm and sch have the option of switching over to nuking.

Basically, pretty much all of whm's advantages would be 'situational', though those situations are likely to be prominant in any difficult fights (AOE damage, magical damage, fights lasting long enough that rationing Convert matters (more than 15 minutes), rapid curebombing with Cure V + Cure VI). At the same time, rdm's nuking potential drops considerably for those same fights. Sch can do reasonably well nuking, but has to choose between the two styles and generally stick with just one at a time.


One could then argue that there is a reasonable balance among the three jobs most commonly regarded as 'healers' if you allowed all three to have Cure V. In difficult fights whm still has a clear edge, and in less difficult fights all three can perform adequately while rdm and sch have the option to bring their other advantages to the fore.


The primary downside is that whm is now suffering a (perceived) deficit in overall capability due to its lack on the damage front compared to rdm and sch. That deficit can be turned around and shown to be an advantage for rdm, which means that any further grants to rdm (either in the melee or enfeebling departments) are likely to be pulled back or severely curtailed, lest players begin the "nerf rdm" chant.

At the same time, while greater curing power may mean more incentive to force players into that role, it also means less time actually spent curing since you can get done with one spell what used to take two. Less time curing means more time that can be used on other actions, and so increases its usefulness as a whole.

[Raksha]

Should probably include the twilight cape bonus for SCH if you're going to count permanent light weather.

[Motenten]

Eh, that's a pretty minor bonus. Goes from 4% cure potency from the new cape to 5% bonus applied after potency. So either 1.5 * 1.1 or 1.46 * 1.15, which is 1.65 to 1.679, or a 1.75% increase. Worthwhile, certainly, but has minimal impact on the numbers I was focusing on, which is more about the rate at which casting is maintainable.

[saevel]

And in which world are you always curing exactly for the max HP amount? This is where paper math fails in reference to WHM +2 pants. You won't be getting back full amounts each and every cast, and most definitely not outside abyssea.

Tank has 1500~1600 HP assuming full merits and good tanking gear (Haste / Acc / Attack + PDT + shield). At 1K per cure V you'd have to wait for the tank to get into 500 ~ 600 HP before casting it. Otherwise your wasting part of the MP regeneration bonus on +2 pants.

Also this is assuming 50% potency too much, less then one fifth of the WHM's I've met have capped cure potency. Most don't even that the magian staff. Your also assuming everyone has +2 pants, head and body, that's not true.

Then we get into the /SCH assumptions. It is not equal to 3mp/tick unless your fighting a brick wall with infinite HP. You will take damage, this damage will interfere with the charge time and often you'll be too busy to even remember hitting that macro again.

So even with all those assumptions, WHM barely pass's RDM in MP longevity. It shouldn't barely pass it, it should completely destroy it.

And finally, the argument isn't whether RDM will or won't be better then WHM with Cure V, we all assumed that RDM should be vastly inferior. Your argument actually supports the "no Cure V" group as it shows that RDM isn't far behind WHM in actual cure power. Add that to RDM and you get main healing + buffing + debuffing + nuking + crowd control. None of those are the best, but their all "just good enough" to make due. You won't be putting a RDM into a tank alliance for main healing, you'll be sticking them with 4~5 DD's in the "DD party" and having them spam Cure V over and over again until they die of boredom. Cure V would lock RDM to two subs, /WHM and /SCH. This is because DD's will demand things like paralyna, silena, erase and cursna along with the usually "Haste me B****" demands.

SE finally has a chance to give RDM unique roles and abilities after years of being forced to be a mediocre healer. Giving RDM "Cure V" would erase that chance and we're back to EXACTLY where we were in 2005/2006. Instead of "Cure IV, Haste, Refresh" it's would be "Cure V, Haste, Refresh II". I refuse to play as a job that is remembered only for three spells.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Also this is assuming 50% potency too much, less then one fifth of the WHM's I've met have capped cure potency. Most don't even that the magian staff. Your also assuming everyone has +2 pants, head and body, that's not true.


Stop using gimps as your measuring bar. All 4 items are easy to get. I see plenty of Whms Brds Blms Rdms etc. with the +2 magian staff on my server and even people's mules have finished the staff so no it is not difficult.




Then we get into the /SCH assumptions. It is not equal to 3mp/tick unless your fighting a brick wall with infinite HP. You will take damage, this damage will interfere with the charge time and often you'll be too busy to even remember hitting that macro again.


This has nothing to do with /sch's mp efficiency.



So even with all those assumptions, WHM barely pass's RDM in MP longevity for single target curing. It shouldn't barely pass it, it should completely destroy it.


I'm not sure why you're okay with Rdm with native Refresh II + Emp+2 pants bonus and merited Convert not only still losing to Whm in MP longevity, but you want Whm to be even better than it already is?




And finally, the argument isn't whether RDM will or won't be better then WHM with Cure V, we all assumed that RDM should be vastly inferior. Your argument actually supports the "no Cure V" group as it shows that RDM isn't far behind WHM in actual cure power for single target cures]. Add that to RDM and you get main healing + buffing + debuffing + nuking + crowd control. None of those are the best, but their all "just good enough" to make due.


Bolded the part you left out.

Since you somehow haven't noticed, Whm is better at number 1 and 2, passable at 3, worse at 4, worse at 5 if /sch and passable /Rdm. So I will say your 'just good enough' statement applies to them as well.



You won't be putting a RDM into a tank alliance for main healing, you'll be sticking them with 4~5 DD's in the "DD party" and having them spam Cure V over and over again until they die of boredom. Cure V would lock RDM to two subs, /WHM and /SCH. This is because DD's will demand things like paralyna, silena, erase and cursna along with the usually "Haste me B****" demands.


/Sch is already our best mage sub, /Blm (or for special people like you, /drk) will still be used for Stun, /Nin will still be used for shadows/meleeing. /Whm is for Stona/easy access barspells that's it. It actually says a lot that your DDs are making such foul demands at you.



SE finally has a chance to give RDM unique roles and abilities after years of being forced to be a mediocre healer. Giving RDM "Cure V" would erase that chance and we're back to EXACTLY where we were in 2005/2006. Instead of "Cure IV, Haste, Refresh" it's would be "Cure V, Haste, Refresh II". I refuse to play as a job that is remembered only for three spells.

And this goes to show you're stuck in a mentality for a situation that no longer exists.

[Quetzacoatl]

And this goes to show you're stuck in a mentality for a situation that no longer exists.

For now. For now.

[Neisan_Quetz]

And one that won't regardless of learning it or not. If you didn't need C5 you didn't need much curing power in the first place - Whm is superfluous.

You need C5 - You're fighting something strong enough to warrant extra healing power - Whm is a clear lead for such fights in single target and Aoe curing and buffing and damage mitigation.

[Motenten]

And in which world are you always curing exactly for the max HP amount? This is where paper math fails in reference to WHM +2 pants. You won't be getting back full amounts each and every cast, and most definitely not outside abyssea.

Valid point. I was conflating the cureskin effect (which gives full potency regardless of how much you actually cured for) with the whm af3+2 pants. As such this can be considered the upper limit of whm's longevity.


Also this is assuming 50% potency too much, less then one fifth of the WHM's I've met have capped cure potency. Most don't even that the magian staff. Your also assuming everyone has +2 pants, head and body, that's not true.

It doesn't matter what gear set I choose, someone will argue that it's not a valid set to work with. As such I just chose the easiest to justify: the standard top-end gear.


Then we get into the /SCH assumptions. It is not equal to 3mp/tick unless your fighting a brick wall with infinite HP. You will take damage, this damage will interfere with the charge time and often you'll be too busy to even remember hitting that macro again.

I find that losing sublimation to damage taken is a rare event, and as such won't try to figure its effects into the model. The model itself is obviously simplified for the basic reason that I'm trying to find the limits of certain values. If you wish to argue against it, you need to present math showing what variances cause the model to diverge significantly, and what degree of variance is necessary to cause that deviation.

For example, at what amount cured (due to the AF3 pants) does whm's perpetual-MP casting rate drop to match sch or rdm's when factoring in a brd?

For simplicity, I'll look at 13 seconds for rdm and 14 seconds for sch, compared to the base 10.5 for whm.

13 s = 4.33 ticks
14 s = 4.66 ticks

whm refresh rate w/brd: 17/tick

Amount of MP recovered in 4.33 and 4.66 ticks at 17/tick: 73.6 and 79.2 MP.

Base cost of Cure 5 without AF3 pants: 113.5

Pants savings required: 39.9 and 34.3

Amount cured to get those savings: 798 and 686

So if the whm is curing for 700-800 HP per cure, they'll be able to maintain perpetual MP while casting at the same rate as rdm or sch.

Further, given that they're curing that quickly and the target is still taking damage, it follows that cureskin is being fully utilized. 800 HP cures with AF3+2 body give a 280 point stoneskin, which means that the whm would be covering for pretty much the same amount of damage per cast (1080) as the rdm (~1085).



Also, while given brief mention in the original post, a closer look at sch's strategem use is probably in order.

Given that strategems for sch main refresh at one every 45 seconds, and given the rough range of perpetual recast rates with brd (10-15 seconds), we could reasonably suppose one use of Penury every 4th cast. With Conserve MP, that works out to an average cost of 62.3 MP instead of 113.5 MP. Four casts would thus cost 113.5*3 + 62.3 = 402.8 MP, or an average of 100.7 MP per cast.

At 11 MP/tick refresh, that's 9.2 ticks to recover the MP (without brd), and a net loss of 57.2 MP per cast (12 second recast rate). Longevity would be 6 minutes 17 seconds before running out of MP. That would put sch well above rdm, but still below the ideal whm value.

Add in brd and the rate at which it can cast and maintain its MP within a Convert cycle is one Cure V every 12.3 seconds.


Whm would then need to cure for 900 per Cure V to maintain a rate on par with sch (one per 12 seconds).


And since, given your tone, you do not quite understand the purpose of my post, I'll reiterate: I personally do not think it would be appropriate to give rdm Cure V (I'm more inclined to allow it for sch), but I'm trying to make a good faith effort to argue in its favor so as to get a better idea of the actual comparisons involved.

Currently my conclusion is this: Adding Cure V to rdm would not drastically overshadow whm, and give rdm a decently useful position as a secondary healer on difficult fights, and allow it to be a main healer on easier fights, theoretically increasing player's options for who they bring as a healer (actual playerbase trends are of course more difficult to guess).

However it would also mean that rdm would forever be stuck in its current fairly mediocre state with respect to any melee or enfeebling enhancements that might otherwise be considered. I, personally, would greatly prefer expansion of its enfeebling specialties instead of a bland "slap a band-aid on it" approach. Whether the dev team has the creativity and the skill to pull that off, though, I can't say.

[Vold]

Why this thread has reached 200 posts boggles my mind. RDM without cure V by now is pure insanity and a load of hogwash. This ain't even remotely in the same league as Utsusemi San, for example. Why the hell is this even a debate? Are people just trolling each other? WHM will destroy RDM even if it had cure VI so I don't know why RDM doesn't have cure V yet. If it and SCH reach 99 without that spell it will be one of the greatest injustices I've ever seen in this games history.

WHM has a solid #1 lead for healer. RDM having access to cure V is never going to make the slightest difference to that lead. What it will do for RDM is make it once more a viable #2 healer to spot heal for the WHM. That is why you give RDM cure V and this thread should end now. But it won't, because people don't want to think about jobs working together as a team to fit the roles they are designed for, they just want their job to be better than the other period so they are ensured invites on the job they want.

Yep, this is FFXI, alright.

[saevel]

@Motenten

I apologize if my tone was off, I've been dealing this these people for too long I think.

I was bringing up those points to illustrate that even at its best, WHM is barely ahead of RDM for longevity, otherwise known as brute cure power. Giving RDM Cure V would put it close enough to WHM that it would be determined "good enough" for main healing duties. What many of the pro camp here doesn't realize, or they do and are being dishonest, is that giving RDM Cure V would put it back into the exact same position as it was in 2005/2006. Forever locked into three spells (Haste Cure Refresh). That is a very very bad thing. RDM's don't want to be stuck main healing four to five melee's, its stressful and ultimately its a suck position to be forced into. Of course you have many people coming in that have absolutely zero intentions of playing the job and instead want to use other RDM's to heal them rather then having to find a WHM. Or worse, they play RDM but only as a method to acquire gear for their PUP, BST, DRG, SMN, COR or what have you. They don't care about the job nor actually enjoying the job, but just it's viability / desirability as a loot whore.

[cidbahamut]

I was bringing up those points to illustrate that even at its best, WHM is barely ahead of RDM for longevity, otherwise known as brute cure power.

If you mean MP endurance then say MP endurance because it's a completely different kettle of fish than Curing.



Giving RDM Cure V would put it close enough to WHM that it would be determined "good enough" for main healing duties.

Oh noes, a Red Mage being able to fill multiple roles? We can't have this Jack-of-All-Trades nonsense unless it relates to swinging a sword, amirite?



What many of the pro camp here doesn't realize, or they do and are being dishonest, is that giving RDM Cure V would put it back into the exact same position as it was in 2005/2006.

Because nothing in this game has changed in the last six years, right?



Forever locked into three spells (Haste Cure Refresh). That is a very very bad thing. RDM's don't want to be stuck main healing four to five melee's, its stressful and ultimately its a suck position to be forced into.

Getting stuck with it? No.
Having the versatility to cover that function when the White Mage bites the dust so we don't wipe while they're reraising/recovering from weakness? Absolutely.

[cidbahamut]

Of course you have many people coming in that have absolutely zero intentions of playing the job and instead want to use other RDM's to heal them rather then having to find a WHM. Or worse, they play RDM but only as a method to acquire gear for their PUP, BST, DRG, SMN, COR or what have you. They don't care about the job nor actually enjoying the job, but just it's viability / desirability as a loot whore.
Yes, because the opinions of Red Mages don't count unless they adhere to your specific vision of the job. Because no one who disagrees with you could possibly consider Red Mage their main job. Because no one with a differing opinion could be anything other than a dirty filthy DD who leveled RDM to get more DD shinies. Because no one who takes the time to argue at length about a job could possibly actually care about the job.

You're full of it saevel.

[Doombringer]

Oh noes, a Red Mage being able to fill multiple roles? We can't have this Jack-of-All-Trades nonsense unless it relates to swinging a sword, amirite?


i've been trying to stay out of this one, since.. i'm not actually even against cureV.. but comon cid.. this implies we in the melee camp have gotten everything we asked for and you supported us in that endeavor. when in fact you fought us tooth and nail and a lot of your side has been implying we're retarded for even wanting the things we want.

i'm not arguing against cure5 here, i'm just saying i never saw you arguing for vorpal blade, or whatever else.. so don't act like he's somehow not keeping up his end of the bargain. you're playing the same card at your same convenience.


honestly i'd like to have cure5... i've always said i never wanted to JUST melee on rdm, so i'm happy to cure someone up before they bleed out. and i'd like them to feel it when i do.. but i'm still not gonna agree to main heal anybodys alliance either, so it's not gonna hurt me personally.

[cidbahamut]

You're not making much sense Doom, and I think you're misreading what I intend by my statement.

There are many people who make the argument for melee updates based on the outdated concept blurb of "Jack-of-all-Trades". Now I see these same people kicking and screaming about how we can't have Cure V because it means we'll be able to fill another role, something one would think would appeal given the Jack-of-all-Trades line or reasoning they cling to. But no, they don't see it like that. Why? Because they're holding a double-standard. Jack-of-all-Trades is a reason to get things, but only if it's the things they want(read: melee), but not if it's something that would benefit the job that they don't care for(read: healing).

[Doombringer]

yah, i get that. but my point was... aren't you kinda doing the same thing? just in the opposite order?

or now i guess you're just throwing out the jack-of-all-trades card to make a point, and don't actually subscribe to the idea.

[CapriciousOne]

Why this thread has reached 200 posts boggles my mind. RDM without cure V by now is pure insanity and a load of hogwash. This ain't even remotely in the same league as Utsusemi San, for example. Why the hell is this even a debate? Are people just trolling each other? WHM will destroy RDM even if it had cure VI so I don't know why RDM doesn't have cure V yet. If it and SCH reach 99 without that spell it will be one of the greatest injustices I've ever seen in this games history.

WHM has a solid #1 lead for healer. RDM having access to cure V is never going to make the slightest difference to that lead. What it will do for RDM is make it once more a viable #2 healer to spot heal for the WHM. That is why you give RDM cure V and this thread should end now. But it won't, because people don't want to think about jobs working together as a team to fit the roles they are designed for, they just want their job to be better than the other period so they are ensured invites on the job they want.

Yep, this is FFXI, alright.
A- freaking-MEN bro, I couldn't have said it better myself and has always been my issue. I dont like main healing myself and will refuse invites if one even ask me to. Even further if I am in the party already and ask me to do so I will leave it. Sure I can fulfill the role but the fact of the matter is whm is designed to fulfill that role BY DESIGN. I and i'm sure many other RDM would have no problem lending the WHM their support but expecting to do it all just is ass backwards to me when another job is more qualified. It is more about ego and wanting thier favorite job to be better than everybody elses for most people. I just ask for stuff that make my solo game more manageable myself. I dont need to be better than everybody else I just like not being dependent on others to get crap done and is why I chose RDM in the first place. Sometimes I think people lose sight of that with this job. You're not meant to be the best at everything just sufficient enough to get shit done by leveraging ALL of your skills not MELEE only or MAGIC only, but BOTH. Anything more than that to me is just greedy and is a display of complete incompetence at the job and the game.

[cidbahamut]

yah, i get that. but my point was... aren't you kinda doing the same thing? just in the opposite order?

or now i guess you're just throwing out the jack-of-all-trades card to make a point, and don't actually subscribe to the idea.

That second one there.

[Airyl]

I'm leaning more in favor of the "Let's see what fancy enfeebling (or enhancing!) spell we could make up to make us not need cure V after all!" school of thought. I mean, I'd like a new healing spell that functioned like a cure 4.5 or something too, but while we're here and before anything's been decided let's at least try and be creative to try and make red mage the most interesting and exciting job it can be! :3

When thinking about this problem, my first instinct was basically to give red mage a single target spell for the party (or alliance?) that functioned kind of like shell does but for physical damage taken. Since the defense stat is kind of retarded at this point, % reductions are always good things, but even that's kind of boring / as potentially overpowering and scary as cure V would be.

I'm interested to know what you'd all think of a "stop" spell with a very long recast. Basically stun with moar duration. Obviously mobs can gain resistance and would probably gain resistance very quickly.

Perhaps a spell that temporarily locks a monsters normal physical attacks, but let's them cast spells or take other special actions that don't rely on physical damage output?

Just a few random thoughts.

[saevel]

A- freaking-MEN bro, I couldn't have said it better myself and has always been my issue. I dont like main healing myself and will refuse invites if one even ask me to. Even further if I am in the party already and ask me to do so I will leave it. Sure I can fulfill the role but the fact of the matter is whm is designed to fulfill that role BY DESIGN. I and i'm sure many other RDM would have no problem lending the WHM their support but expecting to do it all just is ass backwards to me when another job is more qualified. It is more about ego and wanting thier favorite job to be better than everybody elses for most people. I just ask for stuff that make my solo game more manageable myself. I dont need to be better than everybody else I just like not being dependent on others to get crap done and is why I chose RDM in the first place. Sometimes I think people lose sight of that with this job. You're not meant to be the best at everything just sufficient enough to get shit done by leveraging ALL of your skills not MELEE only or MAGIC only, but BOTH. Anything more than that to me is just greedy and is a display of complete incompetence at the job and the game.

While I support you in theory, one of the previous posters has already demonstrated that a RDM with Cure V wouldn't be very far behind WHM in cure power. Blame it on SE's rotten scaling of Healing Magic Skill as it effects Cures. In real use people would just see "Cure V" and immediately throw the RDM into a main healing spot. They've been doing that since 2004, it's not gonna change all of a sudden. Doing this would immediately end any and all enhancements SE would do to RDM. Cause no matter what, for all eternity people would just see RDM has a healer -1. Not the best but "good enough", and that's all people care about. Heck I've seen many alliances try to main heal with RDM's right now, doesn't work very well, and you get one tired RDM, but they thing Cure = main healer.

I don't mind supporting a WHM and taking on part of the healing load, and Cure V would make that tons easier. But I would get to "support" for about two weeks until people noticed that you can just do WHM + RDM/WHM x 2 in an 18 main alliance instead of WHM x 3. Of course the WHM would take care of the two tanks, but the RDM's would be forced to babysit the melee's or if he's lucky the BLMs.

[Seriha]

yah, i get that. but my point was... aren't you kinda doing the same thing? just in the opposite order?

or now i guess you're just throwing out the jack-of-all-trades card to make a point, and don't actually subscribe to the idea.

There's different paths to same destination, and from the support angle, I subscribe to the camp that Enfeebles should be our 'curative buff' since damage prevented is effectively damage cured over time. With SE pimping SCH as the Regen masters now, that's the only alternative avenue left assuming we're striving to diversify jobs.

Considering this thread was pretty much hatched with the intent to troll (http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/106745-The-Official-Forums-III-Nuked?p=4817743&viewfull=1#post4817743), while some good things may have come out of it, Cure V is still the quickest and surest way to deal a blow to RDM's versatility without other additions following in kind (Granted, I feel our nuking is pretty much set aside from guaranteeing accuracy on harder prey). Given how apprehensive SE was about giving RDM anything under the 75 cap because they were "just good enough" to take a WHM's spot in many locations among glamorized soloist exploits, those not interested in repeating that fate have every right to be concerned. It's a fine line between "Jack of All Trades" and "Jack of All Trades, but Best Suited For Healing, so Don't You Dare Do Anything Else."

[Neisan_Quetz]

As long as SE continues to deliver the words 'it would make the game too easy' to prevent damage from TP moves and addle not stacking with pining because monsters cannot attack while casting spells... I refuse to believe their enfeebling buff will be anywhere close to enough.

Even with Cure V Rdm is still not best suited for healing. Whm still is.

[Swords]

As long as SE continues to deliver the words 'it would make the game too easy' to prevent damage from TP moves and addle stacking not stacking with pining because monsters cannot attack while casting spells... I refuse to believe their enfeebling buff will be anywhere close to enough.

Even with Cure V Rdm is still not best suited for healing. Whm still is.

Like I mentioned before though, part of the reason enfeebles are ineffective besides immunities/flat resistances and quirky mechanics, is due to the game not being challenging enough as a whole to support our strength. Most everything in the game is zergable now (even w/o 2hrs) which is counter-effective to our ability to support the group, because essentially the longer our enfeebles last on a mob the more effective and valuable they became over time, which just does not happen when a mob dies in under 2 minutes.

So I'll give you that point. I don't really think the enfeeblement readjustment will be anything spectacular either, and if it is it will probably be rendered ineffective due to the games current challenge level. I won't hold my breath about it, but I will save that SE has surprised players with something good on occasion so who knows.

I'm not totally "against" getting Cure V persay, but until the game has more challenging non-zergable aspects, major RDM flaws are fixed, and those fixes have a time to actually develop and grow within the game community where they show significance to be desired, I strongly feel preemptively slapping Cure V on will deter RDM back into the WHM-2 position. I'm not saying this just because of some pre-mediated fear of the pink bird parties coming back again, I'm also saying it because trends do not die so easily as people make it out to be, and it's hard to break away from a pre-established position the community puts you in. If RDM is considered WHM-2 before the fixes, people will still view it as WHM-2 with some improvements that may or may not be lined up for what the community wants it for. If RDM doesn't have a predefined role after the fixes, it still doesn't have a role therefore can develop into something on it's own, different aspects of the job can be looked at (less objectively) and it will actually be able to grow and find it's own niche within the gaming community.

It can be good or bad, and we may still end up in that position for all we know, but I would rather we were given a chance to be ourselves and develop our own path first.

[Greatguardian]

yah, i get that. but my point was... aren't you kinda doing the same thing? just in the opposite order?

or now i guess you're just throwing out the jack-of-all-trades card to make a point, and don't actually subscribe to the idea.

The latter. Jack-of-all-Trades is a concept constantly thrown around by the melee camp, not anyone else. Thus, it is ironic that the same people who sit around and yell "But Red Mage is a jack of all trades, thus it should be good at melee!" can also say "Red Mage is a jack of all trades, but it shouldn't be good at healing!".

Screw "Jack of all Trades". Update Red Mage's spell library, remove NM immunities (even if they still have high Magic Eva afterwards, that's fine), and let it succeed in the Support Mage niche that it has carved for itself.

inb4 "Support" = "Spam haste/refresh/cures and do nothing else" because people are retarded and don't know how to play Red Mage any way aside from the extremes of Pink and Melee, both of which are terrible.

[CapriciousOne]

While I support you in theory, one of the previous posters has already demonstrated that a RDM with Cure V wouldn't be very far behind WHM in cure power. Blame it on SE's rotten scaling of Healing Magic Skill as it effects Cures. In real use people would just see "Cure V" and immediately throw the RDM into a main healing spot. They've been doing that since 2004, it's not gonna change all of a sudden. Doing this would immediately end any and all enhancements SE would do to RDM. Cause no matter what, for all eternity people would just see RDM has a healer -1. Not the best but "good enough", and that's all people care about. Heck I've seen many alliances try to main heal with RDM's right now, doesn't work very well, and you get one tired RDM, but they thing Cure = main healer.

I don't mind supporting a WHM and taking on part of the healing load, and Cure V would make that tons easier. But I would get to "support" for about two weeks until people noticed that you can just do WHM + RDM/WHM x 2 in an 18 main alliance instead of WHM x 3. Of course the WHM would take care of the two tanks, but the RDM's would be forced to babysit the melee's or if he's lucky the BLMs.

Well again as far as the player base attitude goes, when will more of you RDM just give them the finger and not accept the role they keep placing upon you if you arent satisfied with fulfilling it? I mean grow some fucking balls already. I mean for a single job that basically can substitue for any and every job there is why arent we uniting against this bull shit? RDM will not as good as the specialists can still be sufficient enough to get shit done. RDM is essentially a nuker, healer, damage dealer, enfeebler, and tank even if it is to a lesser degree of the specialist. Essentially we are an entire party on our own so to me it is only logical to put 6, 12, or even 18 RDM together and say the hell with everybody else and let them fend for theirselves WITHOUT US. I see it as they need us more than we need them so SCREW THEM ALL !!! LMFAO let them all die without us.

[saevel]

Well again as far as the player base attitude goes, when will more of you RDM just give them the finger and not accept the role they keep placing upon you if you arent satisfied with fulfilling it? I mean grow some fucking balls already. I mean for a single job that basically can substitue for any and every job there is why arent we uniting against this bull shit? RDM will not as good as the specialists can still be sufficient enough to get shit done. RDM is essentially a nuker, healer, damage dealer, enfeebler, and tank even if it is to a lesser degree of the specialist. Essentially we are an entire party on our own so to me it is only logical to put 6, 12, or even 18 RDM together and say the hell with everybody else and let them fend for theirselves WITHOUT US. I see it as they need us more than we need them so SCREW THEM ALL !!! LMFAO let them all die without us.

I already do that, or well my LS has me come RDM/NIN or RDM/DRK pretty much all the time now. I'm not concerned about my placement or play style, this is for the up and coming RDM's or those who what to try this style of play. Giving RDM Cure V would actually make my job easier as my /ma "Cure IV" <stal> macro would be much more efficient.

That being said, the vast majority of players still think of RDM as a "healer -1" to be used when a WHM isn't around. And the only way to break them of this mentality is to show case RDM's other assets and skillsets, which requires a fundamental shift in how people think. Just tossing Cure V will further enforce the idea of RDM being a WHM-1. It's why I would much rather us have some other form of healing via Enhancing Magic, likely through a Regen type spell.

[Greatguardian]

Absolutely nothing that the Devs do is ever going to make retarded players less retarded.

Neither sword buffs, nor healing buffs, nor enfeebling buffs, nor buffs of any other kind will stop retarded players from being unable to look beyond Cure spells.

If you have a problem with this preconception affecting the way you play in your group, stop playing with retards. If you're worried about the integrity of the community and the fate of the people who are stuck playing with retards, then buckle up because they're not going to change any time soon no matter what anyone does.

[Xianra]

My first job to 75 was RDM, when I started playing back in 2004. Right now my RDM is in semi-retirement, and will stay that way until some significant updates are added.

I can hardly stand the job as it is now. I'll stack up a much MND as possible through gear and atmas, use Saboteur and Elemental Seal (when /blm, to ensure a successful cast), and the resulting enfeebling spell has a barely noticeable effect. Enfeebling is supposed to be our standout ability, but it's too weak. Our magic is simply just too ineffective on things that matter. It only takes a minute or two to apply enfeebling effects to an enemy and enhancing spells to my party, and then I work on providing support through heals while reapplying effects as needed. This is beyond frustrating when many moves strip through a tank's defenses and my Cure IV-III are not nearly enough. My nukes are still a significant step behind BLM, SCH, PUP and BLU (well at least I beat DRK?). I feel as if I could be replaced by an assortment of other jobs that would be more beneficial to the party.

The previous draw with RDM as a main healer in the 75 era was more for MP conservation through Refresh/Convert than anything else. Now WHM has access to several options for MP conservation. As HP pools continue to increase, and new content increases in difficulty, the old cures just fall further behind. Enfeebles aren't helping to bridge this gap. I usually choose my BLU for healing purposes now.

As far as melee goes, I only use that when farming or when solo, and even then, usually not at all. I carry around a lot of gear and melee just isn't as high of a priority to me.

I just feel as if overall, all of the things we can do are just a step behind everyone else, and other jobs that can handle things a RDM can do are more proficient at them.

Cure V could be added immediately for feedback on the test server, and does not require a significant amount of development resources. While it doesn't solve the big picture, it's a useful step in the right direction in my opinion.

[Motenten]

Eh, adding Cure V on the test server probably wouldn't help much on the feedback side. There's not many people there, and they usually don't do large-scale testing, which is where this would need to be considered. All it would tell us is what we already know -- how much rdm could cure for.

[saevel]

Eh, adding Cure V on the test server probably wouldn't help much on the feedback side. There's not many people there, and they usually don't do large-scale testing, which is where this would need to be considered. All it would tell us is what we already know -- how much rdm could cure for.

Test server currently off line actually. They only turn it on prior to an update when they want us to beta test stuff. And be thankful, it lets us give the, feedback on idea's before their implemented and have things corrected.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Test server currently off line actually. They only turn it on prior to an update when they want us to beta test stuff. And be thankful, it lets us give the, feedback on idea's before their implemented and have things corrected.

It's been back up for a while.

[saevel]

It's been back up for a while.

I'll go check, but anything different or is it the exact same as we left it?

[Neisan_Quetz]

Can sub helices that's all I can think of off the top of my head.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I'll go check, but anything different or is it the exact same as we left it?

New BCNM's, War nerf (5 minute duration, 10 minute recast) and SCH buffs.

[Shadowsong]

How the hell is learning higher tiers in magic without being the best in that field of magic a cop-out?

Why is options a bad thing? I'd tell them come on the job they're most comfortable on. That isn't the case right now. For not soloable content it isn't 'You can come support on Rdm or Sch or Whm' with Whm being the clear choice for harder fights, it's 'Oh you have Rdm/Sch leveled? That's nice, come Whm unless you feel like dicking around'.

Yeah! And we should give every melee access to every Weapon Skill too because ya know, for red proc i want options why shouldn't I get it?
You want enfeebles, you get RDM
You want cures, you get WHM. Why is this so hard?

This argument reminds me of the old COR vs BRD threads lol

[Neisan_Quetz]

Yeah! And we should give every melee access to every Weapon Skill too because ya know, for red proc i want options why shouldn't I get it?
You want enfeebles, you get RDM
You want cures, you get WHM. Why is this so hard?

This argument reminds me of the old COR vs BRD threads lol

You really don't know what you're talking about do you?

[Crimson_Slasher]

For once i totally agree with Quetz, as much as i dislike the fact, lets be honest here, how often do you really ask someone to come rdm? Or moreso, how often do you ask someone to come and enfeeble a mob. Not to mention, wouldnt BRD be called on more (or in conjunction to a rdm/whm/sch/blm) to enfeeble? Since abyssea's release ive been asked to come rdm to enfeeble two times. Period.

[Swords]

You really don't know what you're talking about do you?

Heh, yet you wouldn't believe how many people still think RDM is perfectly fine as it is due to the "Hay your RDM just go solo everything like Avesta" approach.

[Mageoholic]

funny one would mention COR and BRD in a thread like this when 96/48 gives COR and BRD Haste/C4/Refresh/Convert, to go along with all their other sweet tricks.

Good thing we got T4 nukes and temper though.

[Greatguardian]

funny one would mention COR and BRD in a thread like this when 96/48 gives COR and BRD Haste/C4/Refresh/Convert, to go along with all their other sweet tricks.

Good thing we got T4 nukes and temper though.

Maybe really shitty CORs would get spells. The good ones are all subbing SAM.

[Kristal]

It's been back up for a while.

hehe.. until the PUP V2.0 update (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/16004-Questions-for-the-Community-Rep-Moogles?p=212820&viewfull=1#post212820) hits the test servers.. then it'll go down FAST :D

[Buffy]

Don't forget that the Obi/Twilight Cape bonus is multiplicative instead of additive with Cure Potency, meaning that it gives a 22.5% (I forget if it rounds) bonus instead of just 15%.

Testing you can link to that proves your statement? Twilight cape is elemental magic in description on item, cures are healing magic.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Lolwiki page and discussion has testing on it.

[Economizer]

Testing you can link to that proves your statement? Twilight cape is elemental magic in description on item, cures are healing magic.

Seriously, if I have to back up something this well known and well tested, I'd never do anything but post links.

Aside from clear documentation on related wiki sites, this is very easy to test. Just get a Twilight Cape and either wait for Lightsday or better yet, level Scholar and cast the relevant spell on yourself. The 5% boost is instantly noticeable.

I could understand a demand if I was making an outrageous or hard to test claim that didn't have easy to find sources on the various community websites, but my claim is incredibly easy to test and prove, and the documentation would have been as easy to find as going to a popular search site, typing out "Twilight Cape" and hitting the enter key. Asking me to prove this is like asking me to prove that 2+2=4 or that White Mage gets Cure at level 1.

[FrankReynolds]

2+2=4

links please, or it didn't happen.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

SE, please please please give RDM cure V again, it's been how long since we got a cure spell? 48? I really think this could solve some issues, but beyond that make rdm desired again inside abyssea for things other than phalanxII :|

Edit: Not just for abyssea, because lolabyssea, but maybe do something to make rdm more desired for voidwatch or something1.) No. Go level whm.
2.) Again? When did you ever have it?
3.) Go enfeeble something like you're supposed to.
4.) Rdm can get, what was it? Like +48% potentcy? Enjoy it.
Flash while you're at it so Rdm has a divine spell.Dia used to be divine.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Because Rdm totally doesn't learn multiple fields of magic, yet Divine is currently the only one we have no native spell for.

Thinking an enfeebler is worthwhile to bring on most harder mobs shows just how clueless you are about how enfeebles (don't) work.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Because Rdm totally doesn't learn multiple fields of magic, yet Divine is currently the only one we have no natural spell for.Again, you HAD and that's the only reason you still have the skill.

Look I can edit in stuff too!

Thinking an enfeebler is worthwhile to bring on most harder mobs shows just how clueless you are about how enfeebles (don't) work.This sound more like you need more skill since you aren't landing anything.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I could honestly not care all that much but if you think Rdm is 'just fine' and we're called on to enfeeble mobs then just lol. Then again you have Whm leveled so you probably haven't realized how redundant Rdm is (outside of exclusive procs but every job has that), or only do old content where Rdm is still redundant.



Look I can edit in stuff too!
This sound more like you need more skill since you aren't landing anything.

Lol? Are you serious? I mean, are you really serious posting this? Yeah I'm done trying to argue with you.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

I could honestly not care all that much but if you think Rdm is 'just fine' and we're called on to enfeeble mobs then just lol. Then again you have Whm leveled so you probably haven't realized how redundant Rdm is (outside of exclusive procs but every job has that), or only do old content where Rdm is still redundant.



Lol? Are you serious? I mean, are you really serious posting this? Yeah I'm done trying to argue with you.You're actualy judging someone by the job they have set to a forum?

[Neisan_Quetz]

You think enfeebling is relevant and Rdms are called on for their... unique enfeebling spell of Dia 3, The difference between Slow 1 and 2 and Para which never lands on anything difficult, that's all I had to hear from you.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

You think enfeebling is relevant that's all I had to hear from you.If you want to judge like that. You're a rdm in the rdm forum basically saying enfeebling magic has no place in the game.

Edit: Look I captured your original post in quotes before you changed the whole thing. Do I get a prize? ^^

Edit 2: lol Everytime I look back it's changed even more.

[Neisan_Quetz]

As it currently stands on anything of merit, it is either fairly irrelevant bar Dia III potentially Slow 2, Whm and Blm cover the exact same enfeebles and then some, or they're resisted.

ISP disconnecting before I finished only reason for the edits.


EDIT: And on the general forum you acknowledge Rdm enfeebles are mostly useless/unwanted and then try and come here and say Rdm is called on for enfeebling, just get out after that one.

[Kristal]

Testing you can link to that proves your statement? Twilight cape is elemental magic in description on item, cures are healing magic.

It says "Same elemental magic as weather/day", not "Same elemental elemental magic as weather/day". And the links are : any FFXI wiki.

SE could have just called it "Depending on day/weather: Enhances bonus", but that's SE for you.

[Economizer]

It says "Same elemental magic as weather/day", not "Same elemental elemental magic as weather/day". And the links are : any FFXI wiki.

I believe the Zodiac Ring only affects elemental magic or something like that, which sortof makes this understandable. The main thing is that looking it up on any of the three major FFXI wiki sites would have clarified it without having to mention a link, like you said.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Yeah, it's mostly poor wording, Zodiac Ring states "Depending on Day: enhances elemental magic".

[Daniel_Hatcher]

It says "Same elemental magic as weather/day", not "Same elemental elemental magic as weather/day". And the links are : any FFXI wiki.

SE could have just called it "Depending on day/weather: Enhances bonus", but that's SE for you.

It's really not confusing though. Every magic so far has an element, Healing itself is of the Light Element and so on.

[FrankReynolds]

Has no effect on Divine Magic, Dark Magic, Healing Magic, or Impact.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Has no effect on Divine Magic, Dark Magic, Healing Magic, or Impact.

What doesn't?

[FrankReynolds]

The ring that everyone seems so confused about.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

The ring that everyone seems so confused about.

Nah, I believe it's the Twilight Cape someone is arguing does't work on healing magic.

The ring was just brought up in the conversation.