Fix Weakness on Ranged attacks

[xbobx]

It is unbalanced that a melee when weaknessed multiple times has no really acc issue and can continue in a fight. A ranger once they have double weakness seems to have 0 racc, no matter how much you stack racc you will be lucky if you hit once.

This is the main weapon of our job, we become useless when weakened unless we melee with crappy attacks.

[esoR]

this was implemented intentionally to counter rmt tactics way back i the day. there are many old rmt era fixes, but i doubt SE would repeal them due to their reason for implementation.

[Arcon]

Melees have Slow to worry about, even during the first weakness. Mages after double weakness are completely useless in any offensive category. It's not just RNG.

[noodles355]

Melee's dont have any problems with accuracy, but they are hit with a hefty slow. Since slow doesn't affect ranger, accuracy was cut. But on the flipside, a weakened rng, like a weak blm (single weak) can still nuke/shoot for normal damage. A single weak melee is still hit with the slow.

[xbobx]

I double weakened ranger cannot even hit, that is what I am saying. It is nice we don't get hit with slow, but what does it matter when your racc rate is 1%. I would rather take the slow and do some damage then go make a sandwich while i wait 5 mins.

[noodles355]

Yeah, but when single weak, we still function at 100%, melees are hit with the slow both single and double. It's called "Balance".

[xbobx]

Would you get it through your head I am talking about double weakness. I know when weak we can still hit, no where did I say different. It is unacceptable when double weakened we become completely useless, that is not balance. SE has no clue what the word balance means anyways.

[Arcon]

Would you get it through your head I am talking about double weakness. I know when weak we can still hit, no where did I say different. It is unacceptable when double weakened we become completely useless, that is not balance. SE has no clue what the word balance means anyways.

Then why do you ask them to understand? You just want preferential treatment. You don't seem to care that mages have the exact same problem (100% resist), and in fact some melee do too, depending on what they're doing.

Also, everything doesn't have to follow the same rules to be balanced. Ranged DDs have full strength, up to a certain point, then zero. Melee DD have limited strength all the time. Whether it's fair or not is up for debate, but it's an acceptable trade off, especially considering what these limitations are there to prevent, which is zombie-killing, and which is the only thing you could still want to DD for after dying twice.

[noodles355]

Would you get it through your head I am talking about double weakness.Jesus christ, did you actually read my post? Or were you just unable to understand it? I'm not really sure how I could have made it any more clear. I'm fully aware you're talking about double weak. I gave you an explanation of why being useless double weak is balanced - because we function 100% single weak, unlike melee who are gimped both single/double weak.

[Lokithor]

Xbobx, I think everyone understands your point. It is frustrating when the only thing you can do when double weak is go make a sandwich. On the other hand, to be completely, 100% effective when single weak is a huge plus. You will be single weak much, much more often than double. Not a bad trade off IMO. Ranger is without doubt the BEST zombie job in the game.

Mmmm, sandwich....

[Saelae]

Keep in mind that melee are at a very high risk of death from AoE well due to low max HP if they try to zombie DD. While MP isn't too much of a concern in Abyssea, raise does takes quite a bit of time to cast during which the caster can't do anything else. On top of that, if they died in AoE range, they also have to make sure they don't raise up into an AoE and waste even more time/MP. So while yes, they can die over and over and be just as effective as after one death, each subsequent death further lowers their damage uptime and requires a mage to dedicate time to raise them that could be spent doing other things.

Regardless, if you died 2x in a row, something went horribly wrong and you should focus on trying to play better instead of complaining about a justifiable penalty for mistakes.

[Mirabelle]

The whole purpose of weakened state is to limit your abilities significantly to make dying a substantial penalty. If you are double weakened on RNG then you are out of the fight end of story. Get healthy and come back in 5 min. This is a fine game mechanic. Melee aren't doing great things double weakened anyway and a RNG is significantly better off with single weakness.
If you are dying so much, improve your tactics or skills. The game shouldn't allow you to zombie anything you want.

[Froggis]

If we break it down, mages get it the worst as they get slow effects and 0 magical dmg. Rng cannot actually deal dmg even if the attack hits (during double weak). Melees get slow effects.

melee can die as many times as they like and get right back up, do a ws for a !!. Mages can still trigger though they will deal 0 dmg (thus a benefit at this point since 0 dmg = less hate). Ranger cannot deal damage nor trigger.

I see no fair distribution. I understand the "balance" thing, but balance would mean: melees should have a real/more significant double weak penalty, rng gets a single weak penalty and no double weak penalty, or everyone has a single and double weak penalty. Really if you want balance, the last one is the only truly fair one, but it would make the game miserable. Would be much more logical and fair to simply impose a snapshot-50 (equiv to slow+100) effect for rng weakness* and no double weakness, and mage's dmg issue would be debatable since it can be beneficial, but really dealing 0 dmg during double weak is out-dated in this age of Voidwatch where 5 min is 16.6% of the battle.

*whatever slow the others get (not sure [50 then 100?]) while single/double weak should be converted to snapshot- is what I'm saying for rng

[noodles355]

why should melee get a more significant double weak penalty? their single weak penalty sucks much more than ranger's. Rng can still work at 100% pretty much and doesn't have to worry about low HP and dying again to AoEs. Melees attack slower and stay in AoE range for longer meaning they're more likely to die again. Melees have a significant disadvantage. It definitely makes for a fair balance

[Froggis]

why should melee get a more significant double weak penalty? their single weak penalty sucks much more than ranger's. Rng can still work at 100% pretty much and doesn't have to worry about low HP and dying again to AoEs. Melees attack slower and stay in AoE range for longer meaning they're more likely to die again. Melees have a significant disadvantage. It definitely makes for a fair balance

Current relative RNG content includes Voidwatch primarily. AoEs are 20' and to ws (while single weak for rng), you have to be within 20'... if you get hit, you're useless in every way. Mages can still get procs, so can melees. Why should rng have a 16.6% (5/30min) of the battle penalty where they cannot proc while every other job still can?

[noodles355]

Or just learn to run in after AoEs. Jesus it's like RNGs saying Ixion was hard cus they kept dying to Lightning Spear lol.

Single weak: Rng shoots for TP out of AoE range, runs into WS. Melee has to stay in AoE range for both TP and WS. Obviously situation dependant on whether you TP on them at all or just use regain, but for those where you do, Rng has a significant advantage that balances out with melees working the same weak and double weak.

And you realise if you are double weak in VW, you could just throw on an axe/sword/dagger and go for ws procs with those.

[Lumiya]

And you realise if you are double weak in VW, you could just throw on an axe/sword/dagger and go for ws procs with those.

Ok, now I have to call you on it noodles. You are just plain silly. Melee RNG? No such thing. We can't even wear any haste gear! Not to mention our horrible accuracy while meleeing. RNG never has been and never will be a melee!

[esoR]

GRAB YOUR AXES! WE FIGHT!

[Froggis]

Or just learn to run in after AoEs. Jesus it's like RNGs saying Ixion was hard cus they kept dying to Lightning Spear lol.

Single weak: Rng shoots for TP out of AoE range, runs into WS. Melee has to stay in AoE range for both TP and WS. Obviously situation dependant on whether you TP on them at all or just use regain, but for those where you do, Rng has a significant advantage that balances out with melees working the same weak and double weak.

And you realise if you are double weak in VW, you could just throw on an axe/sword/dagger and go for ws procs with those.

Cearly you've never done much VW because you'd know that double weak is inevitable for any real rng (empy/relic/mythic). All the Jeuno and Zilart t2 have terrible moves, like the burn from the t2 jeuno corse's Hadal Summons. From various deaths, it is not an aura - it stays through death. Like, you reraise and its back on, so without a whm or vicars you die again (it can be erased an will not reappear).

So if you have done VW, t2 zilart/jeuno and above, please logically explain how you NEVER been double weakened on rng, cuz apparently you never have done VW or never on RNG at those tiers.

I see the axe/dagger thing, but who will hit the archery trigs? and when you run all the way in to ws now (since its not a ranged ws), you get killed again and cant do archery trigs for another 5 min.

Not going to argue anymore about it; negating a job's ability to hit their unique triggers for 16.6% of a battle is completely unreasonable.

[Camate]

Sorry to bump this thread, but I bring some information about your request. Hopefully it will shed some light on where the development team stands.



Currently for ranger, when you’re afflicted with double weakness, ranged attacks will always miss. Since this makes WS miss as well, it’s not possible to exploit weaknesses in VW and other content. Could you please make these misses act as zero damage instead of a pure miss?

Elemental magic is also penalized while under the effects of double weakness, but it does not miss, it only becomes zero damage, thus allowing it to be used to exploit weaknesses in VW.
Could you please look into this?


It’s not that it will always miss, but when you become K.O.ed while under the effects of weakness, your attack accuracy becomes extremely low. The method of determining accuracy for close range attacks and ranged attacks is different, and this effect is more noticeable for ranged attacks where the accuracy floor is much lower.

I believe that your request is asking whether we can increase this floor; however, if we did this, monsters would also need to undergo this change.
*Monsters will never be under the effects of weakness, but think of this as ranged attacks from lower level monsters hitting players with a greater degree of accuracy.

Also, when you are KO’d while weak, limitations are set to lower your contribution to the battle and making adjustments in the direction of negating these limitations is like putting the cart before the horse.

While the thought is to have a penalty and have players be mindful in battle so they don’t get KO’d repeatedly, for the example you gave about Voidwatch, we understand that currently there is a lot of AoE damage and it is easy to get caught up in it and die. For this, we would like to make adjustments to the content itself so as to not create situations where you need to fight while weakened.

[Alhanelem]

Being weakened doesn't lower your effective level, so i'm not sure why you'd need to make lower level monsters more accurate to higher level players in order to tweak these parameters.

[Tagrineth]

Being weakened doesn't lower your effective level, so i'm not sure why you'd need to make lower level monsters more accurate to higher level players in order to tweak these parameters.

He's saying that while the acc floor for melee attacks is relatively high (like 20%?), the acc floor for ranged attacks is much lower (probably closer to 5%). For them to make double-weak ranged attacks hit more, they'd have to raise the /ra acc floor, which would affect low level mobs attacking players, because the floor on their racc would be much higher.

[Annahya]

Sorry to bump this thread, but I bring some information about your request. Hopefully it will shed some light on where the development team stands.



It’s not that it will always miss, but when you become K.O.ed while under the effects of weakness, your attack accuracy becomes extremely low. The method of determining accuracy for close range attacks and ranged attacks is different, and this effect is more noticeable for ranged attacks where the accuracy floor is much lower.

I believe that your request is asking whether we can increase this floor; however, if we did this, monsters would also need to undergo this change.
*Monsters will never be under the effects of weakness, but think of this as ranged attacks from lower level monsters hitting players with a greater degree of accuracy.

Also, when you are KO’d while weak, limitations are set to lower your contribution to the battle and making adjustments in the direction of negating these limitations is like putting the cart before the horse.

While the thought is to have a penalty and have players be mindful in battle so they don’t get KO’d repeatedly, for the example you gave about Voidwatch, we understand that currently there is a lot of AoE damage and it is easy to get caught up in it and die. For this, we would like to make adjustments to the content itself so as to not create situations where you need to fight while weakened.

While this seems sensible, it doesn't address the question raised regarding the balance of using magic to target a monster's weakness while under the effect of double weakness - further, as some others have pointed out, it is sometimes advantageous to target magical weaknesses while double-weakened because of the enmity mitigation gained by doing 0 damage.

While we certainly understand that the dev team wants weakness to be a negative, in the case of weakness targeting it is rather selective to defend RNGs limitations with the notion of "limited contribution" while completely ignoring the point raised about how magical weakness-targeting is not limited equally.

If limited contribution is truly sought, and the dev team feels as though RNG's archery procs should fall under this consideration, then why not raise the damage required for elemental magic to proc to 1 point, so that the contribution of casters is equally limited? Not that I want things to get more frustrating, or whatever, it is just a rhetorical point raised by your response.

I totally understand the idea that weakness should be a bad thing, I don't think anyone here is arguing otherwise - but when examining content for adjustments, as you said would be preferable to adjusting weakness itself, please consider this point when moving forward.

[Helel]

So why can other melee jobs perform perfectly fine while a RNG becomes absolutely useless under double weakened effect?

[VZX]

While the thought is to have a penalty and have players be mindful in battle so they don’t get KO’d repeatedly, for the example you gave about Voidwatch, we understand that currently there is a lot of AoE damage and it is easy to get caught up in it and die. For this, we would like to make adjustments to the content itself so as to not create situations where you need to fight while weakened.
Other than new Tier 6 Jeuno VWNM, I particularly haven't gotten into a situation I found myself in double-weakened state.

Walk of Echoes, on the other hand, I can have most people agree that this battlefield is 90% (or more?) of the time, you will get yourself weakened or double weakened.

[Babekeke]

So why can other melee jobs perform perfectly fine while a RNG becomes absolutely useless under double weakened effect?

RNG and COR can also keep out fo the AOE range and do their job just fine for most of the time... No reason why they should become double-weak.

[Arcon]

So why can other melee jobs perform perfectly fine while a RNG becomes absolutely useless under double weakened effect?

Because RNG can perform perfectly fine single-weakened, while other melees become absolutely useless. Overall I'm pretty sure melee jobs have the worse card.

[VZX]

Because RNG can perform perfectly fine single-weakened, while other melees become absolutely useless. Overall I'm pretty sure melee jobs have the worse card.
But Ranged attackers and Nukers got their position tougher than any melee. The 2nd time they die, they will fall into absolute uselessness while melee can manage contributes something small and slower when they are weakened.

My BLU is greatest melee when it comes to zombieing for being able to cast unnerfed spells and die again no problem.
SAM and other 2-hander aren't that bad because it takes less number of hit to gain TP and WS (unnerfed) compared to other DW/punching jobs.
Other dual wield/punching jobs got the end of the stick, I will agree with that.

Just because I can maintain distance, doesn't mean the monster will never come towards me. Given any form of hate reset and pet/avatar fighting, you can't argue that if someone can perform their task out of AoE range, death shouldn't come to them. If you are to implement healing magic cures 0 HP when double weakened, I think you would use the same arguments I've given above.

[Mirabelle]

RNG and COR can also keep out fo the AOE range and do their job just fine for most of the time... No reason why they should become double-weak.

You have no clue about enmity mechanics obviously. A RNG doing his job (DD) would have to gimp his abilities substantially to keep a mob from ever going after him. That's even with max enmity gear and Coronach. Until SE fixes the enmity formulas (fat chance) maxing CE is only a matter of a brief amount of time. Add in all the hate reset moves these new NM's have and most fights degenerate into whoever hit the mob last gets hate.

Basically, much like BLM's, ranged attackers have to gimp themselves to avoid getting into AoE range. I've been double weak many times on RNG and COR largely because with single weakness you can outperform other weak DD's and are soon pulling the NM your way for a one shot kill.

That being said I can live with this mechanic as annoying as it is. I'd rather Se worked on enmity generation for ranged attackers to lessen the chance of being double weak in the first place.

[Cahlum]

Pretty much I can sum up that dev post with 3 words, Cannot be arsed.

[Hoshi]

RNG and COR can also keep out fo the AOE range and do their job just fine for most of the time... No reason why they should become double-weak.

You're out of range for aoe moves that hate reset too...

[Novowels]

I believe that your request is asking whether we can increase this floor; however, if we did this, monsters would also need to undergo this change.
*Monsters will never be under the effects of weakness, but think of this as ranged attacks from lower level monsters hitting players with a greater degree of accuracy.

what about the fact that no matter what level the mob is, they will always hit a ninjas shadows 100% of the time

[Arcon]

what about the fact that no matter what level the mob is, they will always hit a ninjas shadows 100% of the time

This has always been bothering me. Why will ranged attacks always kill shadows? They don't normally have 100% accuracy, so why in this case? It has always looked like a bug to me.

[Mirabelle]

You're out of range for aoe moves that hate reset too...

Exactly. I cant count how many times I've been controlling my DD output on COR, using an enm- WS and the mob does its hate reset move killing half the melee and reseting hate on the tanks and makes a beeline straight to me. Fortunately I usually have enough time to get fanatics up before he starts swinging but fanatics won't stop every type of damage.

Anyways, there are lots of reasons to be double weak unless you totally quit fighting after single weakness and run far away from everyone.

[Fyreus]

Sometimes i swear these devs have selective reading... maybe the problem is one guy translating from english to japanese then the answer is answered in japanesenglish so we then read it as a word puzzle. If what i'm reading is correct, then the code for floors works between mobs AND players on ranged attacks? We didn't have this problem before it was implemented (it wasn't an rmt thing, it was implemented around the rng nerf), so why not undo then make changes?

Mobs didn't have amazing accuracy until the arrow vs utsusemi nerf so i'm not trying to hear it.