Ideas for Paladin Modification

[DamonWolfe]

A lot of people talk about changing Enmity and other such things, but I had a long discussion on another board about this and a few things I will be listed seem to make the most sense, while not giving too much of a heavy change to the game (Unless I note so otherwise.)

Note - This is about changing existing traits/abilities, etc not adding new ones (for the most part)

1) Change Job Ability - "Cover" Into a Job Trait. (and Add Cover II or even Cover III as well)

= If the paladin stands infront of a party member who has main hate (most hate), they will cover that party member.

Each increase in the trait (II and III) will increase the chance of a paladin blocking with a shield while covering.

2) Change Job Trait - "Defense Bonus" to "Damage Reduction"

= A increase and defense does not seem to make much change as the levels go higher in a sense of reducing damage, however turning the traits into Damage Reduction, lets say. "Damage Reduction I - V" Gives a 5% gain each time for lets say lv 99 with 25% dmg reduction. This would allow paladin to take more hits and increase it's use without making other jobs less useful or over powering pld as a DD.

3) Updating Job Trait "Shield Mastery"

= A job that is the main user for shields should have a bit more of a boost to using a shield, in contrast to wanting to dual wield as a /nin or /dnc

For example, lets say it should increase the damage rate when using Shield Bash (which would make it a bit more useful overall) so there is currently 3 Shield Mastery traits, so lets do the dmg increase by 25% with each trait, so lets say Shield bash does 30 dmg at lv 90 + 4 traits = +75% so +22 dmg making it do 55 dmg with shield bash

Or if not a damage increase, than with each trait, the stun effect last longer?


NOW, we go on to minor adds to the job.

1) Add Job Trait - "Counter" (Or something similiar)

= I know this thing is big for Monk, but hear me out. A paladin is a Shield and sword combo class. So we can give it a Counter like trait, where if you successfully block with a shield you have a 5-10% chance of countering with your weapon (Sword in this case) But the trait can only work if you have a shield.

2) A job trait or ability (Preferable a Trait) that allows more damage when using a Sword.

= My logic on this is that Paladin is a A+ using a Sword, while like Red Mage and Blue Mage are lower than that (even if slightly so). They should be more potent when using it, So what about something like

"When using a Sword and Shield, increase damage to the main hand weapon. (Similiar to how Fencer increases damage if a Warrior using a one handed weapon, but it has to be a Shield and Sword combo for paladin)


These are all my suggestions and fixes for job. What you guys think?

[Zumi]

Paladins also need a reliable interrupt. Shield bash on a 5 min cool down isn't too useful. It should be changed to like 10 or 15 sec to be more in line with head butt. Or have a whole new JA together thats low damage but interrupts the mob. Part of tanking is stopping devastating moves from your enemies so that's why I think PLD needs it.

[Cream_Soda]

These are all my suggestions and fixes for job. What you guys think? It wouldn't fix the job at all. If I as a Monk, for example, am capable of dealing a ton of damage, and tanking w/o even a worry of dying, even if you could cover me for every attack, why would it matter? I was in no danger of dying to begin with.


As long as DDs can hold hate and not be in danger of death, Paladin is not going to be needed.

[DamonWolfe]

It wouldn't fix the job at all. If I as a Monk, for example, am capable of dealing a ton of damage, and tanking w/o even a worry of dying, even if you could cover me for every attack, why would it matter? I was in no danger of dying to begin with.


As long as DDs can hold hate and not be in danger of death, Paladin is not going to be needed.

Is that anywhere in the game, or just in Abyssea?

[Cream_Soda]

Is that anywhere in the game, or just in Abyssea?
Anywhere in the game.

People were already moving away from pld tanks when the cap was still 75 prior to abyssea.

It's just that people used paladin as a "Safety net" since you really needed DD tanks that knew what they were doing. At this time, in abyssea, now pretty much any DD can tank, but back in the day, you needed someone who really stood out, or pld was going to be the safety net.

Aka if you have a good DD tank, abyssea or no, no pld required.

If you have a bad DD tank who relies on abyssea to be able to tank, then yea abyssea only.

[DreamerGuyAliquis]

I've always thought it would be interesting and fun if PLD would get a Trait that would allow it to use Shields with Great Swords.
C'mon, Great Swords really don't have a main job.
Yes, yes, DRK and WAR use them.... yeah not really! DRK is all about Scythes, and they are vehement about it as people freak out when a PLD isn't "SWORD + BOARD or GTFO" (even when GS, club, and staff are already situationally useful.)
Giving PLDs the option of great sword, and letting them retain Shield could help give PLDs some DD + defensive options to employ in abyssea and in future areas. Traits, job ability and or Stances could be employed to balance this

-STANCES- (like NIN, WHM and SAM employ to their jobs) would be a great addition to PLD.
A way for PLD to Maximize Defense, Healing Magic, etc, while actually tanking and then a way for them to Maximize their offense to regain enmity when the mob is looking at the MNKs, i mean DDs.

Why not give PLD some Holy Destructive power? if a MNK can be the be all end all Tank + DD... may as well buff PLD up and give it some more relevance.

[DamonWolfe]

If you look at Final Fantasy History

Paladin/Knight always been a big damage hitter. The problem with that in this game is that you can't give it good defense skills and make it do decent damage too.

If you look at the current AF3 set for pld at +1 or +2 they do get a decent boost to attack and str. I felt that Paladin should get a damage increase but how to put that I dunno, at least not without making paladin over powered in contrast to other DD jobs, but I would think since this game is a PvE, there shouldn't be a issue with that change in a sense of balance (This is why PvP in this game isn't balanced, cause it wasn't designed for balanced pvp.)

I'd really like to see paladin get back in it's original limelight. And I wouldn't care about anyone getting Q_Q about their "awesome" Sam, Drg, War, Mnk etc getting a bit less awesome compared to Paladin if they update it to do way more damage.

[DreamerGuyAliquis]

Hey, MNK already gets "good defense skills and does {ridiculous} damage", so I say PLD should 'go for it'.
Inclusion of some 'Stances' along with reworking Cover, Shield Bash, etc would help balance this.

Perhaps such a stance would lend some of these 'rework' ideas? A Stance that augments Cover, shield Bash, Cure potency based off of enimity, etc. to maximize tanking. And then an opposite stance to augment Sword things, Divine Magic/flash?

[Bilonn]

Hey, MNK already gets "good defense skills and does {ridiculous} damage", so I say PLD should 'go for it'.
Inclusion of some 'Stances' along with reworking Cover, Shield Bash, etc would help balance this.

Perhaps such a stance would lend some of these 'rework' ideas? A Stance that augments Cover, shield Bash, Cure potency based off of enimity, etc. to maximize tanking. And then an opposite stance to augment Sword things, Divine Magic/flash?

Right. Do it like the Samurai job's Hasso and Seigan.

Make Paladin have three 'stances', each with a 1 minute recast, 5 minute duration, and make any one overwrite all three (so only one can be active at any time)
---
*Cover Stance: (Duration 5m, Recast 1m, Overwrites Cover Stance, Shield Stance, Crusade Stance)
Slow +10%, Attack -5%, Damage Reduction 10%, Healing Magic +15%, Spell Interuption +5% Covers any ally within a 60 degree cone behind the Paladin

*Shield Stance: (Duration 5m, Recast 1m, Overwrites Cover Stance, Shield Stance, Crusade Stance, Only Usable if Shield is Equipped)
Slow +15%, Shield Rate +80%, Damage Reduction when Shield Procs +40%, Able to Block Ranged Attacks +80%

*Crusade Stance: (Duration 5m, Recast 1m, Overwrites Cover Stance, Shield Stance, Crusade Stance)
Haste +5%, Shield Rate -20%, Defense -5%, Attack +15%
---
This gives Paladin High healing capability while sacrificing attack speed while in "Cover", Higher defence and damage reduction, again sacrificing attack while in "Shield", and sacrificing defense to go on offense in "Crusade".

There will be much adjustment necessary to these, these are just fast 'toss out' numbers that would need tweaking to maintain balance. However, a stance system like this would put Paladins more in the role they were designed for (tanking), but with the ability to jump into a more offensvie role if required. Using stances may help prevent overbalance, making you choose the role and stick with it for a duration, just like a Samurai has to (Hasso for offense, Seigan for defense), but with the ability to adapt throughout the battle.

Getting low health? Drop into Shield... Got healed but the mages are under attack, jump to Cover, everyone's safe now? Go on the offensive a while... start to take damage, drop back down and shield again.

So many ideas to work with, but something needs to adjust to make the job useful in groups again. I love the job, but it's almost impossible to get invites now...

[Gallus]

I think the best way to adjust Paladin without going overboard would be to give them abilities that would vary based on whether they're equipping 2-handed weapons or the traditional sword/shield.

1-Handed: Paladin would now fill a desirable Tank/Support role. Permanent aura effect that grants 2-tick regain, regen, and refresh. Additionally, a new job ability that absorbs 30% enmity from all surrounding allies (45 second recast). Lastly, on successful shield blocks, the Paladin has a chance of leaving the monster "prone" for a short period of time, increasing critical hit rate and damage of allies (higher % chance the larger the shield).

2-Handed: Paladin would fill a DD/Healing role, getting a "Crusade" buff of sorts. The Paladin would gain a permanent enlight (approx +30% of physical damage dealt) that can crit. Also, a 25~35% increase in cure potency, and a job ability that distributes the damage dealt between the current target of the monster and the Paladin. The job will play quite different than it had in the past.

[Panthera]

Paladin desperately needs attention! With Atmas, there is little Paladin can do to keep up with the hate that just about any job is able to get from damage. Perhaps Paladin needs an + Enmity trait.

Also, "Cover" is one of the main things that has always defined Paladin. I don't see it it getting turned into a trait, as that is simply too radical, but perhaps substantially extending its duration via traits might work.

I can't agree about the "Counter" idea. Counter belongs to Monks, and I hate to see it spread across so many jobs, like War and Samurai, that being a Monk doesn't mean what it used to. It takes away from the uniqueness of the job. Some things can be shared across several jobs, others shouldn't.

[JagerForrester]

I can't agree about the "Counter" idea. Counter belongs to Monks, and I hate to see it spread across so many jobs, like War and Samurai, that being a Monk doesn't mean what it used to. It takes away from the uniqueness of the job. Some things can be shared across several jobs, others shouldn't.

I would say the same thing about Dual Wield, but look where it is now. The jobs that have it now has utilized that subjob combination for the added bonus of holding another weapon and the spell that reduces the chance of being hit.

[Cursed]

An alternative way towards game ballance:

1. Job Specific Atmas - equipable only when on said job. or the likes should SE wish to move the game outside of abyssea in the future. These Atmas should/could be earned by attaining lv.99 and finishing the last genkai, or through a tier 3 merit system. They should be epic for each job.

2. Job specific Abyssite - same as job specific Atmas. or something along the same lines should the game's new end game move outside abyssea.



Specific examples for PLD
1. Job Specific Atmas -

(A) Atma of the holy knight. Attained by attaining Lv.75 PLD, Artifact Armor and Relic Armor.
Cure potency +Major
Shield block rate + Superior
Refresh Major
Grants ability to cast spell "Reflect"
grants Immunity to doom/death.
Reflect - Reflects 50% of AOE Elemental Magic attacks for party and 75% of single target elemental magic spells for PLD.

(B) Atma of the Avenger Attained by attaining Lv.90 PLD, Empyrean Armor +2
Haste+Major
Enlight+ Superior
Damage taken - Major
grants access to Sword Weapon skill "Divine Reckoning"
Divine Reckoning - Deals critical light Magic damage, aftermath: Resets Party/Alliance Enmity and grants PLD with an Enmity Bonus.
Durations - 100% TP = 30 seconds, 200% TP = 45 seconds, 300% tp = 60 seconds

2. Job Specific Abyssite
(A) Celestial Abyssite of Valor - Grants an additional 15% and 30% of MP and HP and a 30% reduction time on all Job Abilities.
(B) Celestial Abyssite of Chivalry - Grants a cumulative Enmity Bonus - +15% over enmity cap.

[AnjinLeviathan]

Why not just change VIT from a 2 = 1 def equation to a 4 VIT = 1% damage reduction equation. (I'd say 2 for 1, but let's be honest, that'd probably break the game.) That would definitely aid monks with their naturally high VIT scores, but PLD weapons and armor afford much more VIT.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Would still just use Mnk over paladin still if they did that, just that Mnk has increased survivability now with CC up fulltime.

[Dale]

Paladins also need a reliable interrupt. Shield bash on a 5 min cool down isn't too useful. It should be changed to like 10 or 15 sec to be more in line with head butt. Or have a whole new JA together thats low damage but interrupts the mob. Part of tanking is stopping devastating moves from your enemies so that's why I think PLD needs it.

Although I am tempted to agree with you on this due to seflishness, for the good of game balance I'm going to have to disagree with you. Giving Paladins a 10 second stun would make this class far too powerful. Other jobs specialize in interrupting abilities.

[Dale]

A lot of people talk about changing Enmity and other such things, but I had a long discussion on another board about this and a few things I will be listed seem to make the most sense, while not giving too much of a heavy change to the game (Unless I note so otherwise.)

Note - This is about changing existing traits/abilities, etc not adding new ones (for the most part)

1) Change Job Ability - "Cover" Into a Job Trait. (and Add Cover II or even Cover III as well)

= If the paladin stands infront of a party member who has main hate (most hate), they will cover that party member.

Each increase in the trait (II and III) will increase the chance of a paladin blocking with a shield while covering.

2) Change Job Trait - "Defense Bonus" to "Damage Reduction"

= A increase and defense does not seem to make much change as the levels go higher in a sense of reducing damage, however turning the traits into Damage Reduction, lets say. "Damage Reduction I - V" Gives a 5% gain each time for lets say lv 99 with 25% dmg reduction. This would allow paladin to take more hits and increase it's use without making other jobs less useful or over powering pld as a DD.

3) Updating Job Trait "Shield Mastery"

= A job that is the main user for shields should have a bit more of a boost to using a shield, in contrast to wanting to dual wield as a /nin or /dnc

For example, lets say it should increase the damage rate when using Shield Bash (which would make it a bit more useful overall) so there is currently 3 Shield Mastery traits, so lets do the dmg increase by 25% with each trait, so lets say Shield bash does 30 dmg at lv 90 + 4 traits = +75% so +22 dmg making it do 55 dmg with shield bash

Or if not a damage increase, than with each trait, the stun effect last longer?


NOW, we go on to minor adds to the job.

1) Add Job Trait - "Counter" (Or something similiar)

= I know this thing is big for Monk, but hear me out. A paladin is a Shield and sword combo class. So we can give it a Counter like trait, where if you successfully block with a shield you have a 5-10% chance of countering with your weapon (Sword in this case) But the trait can only work if you have a shield.

2) A job trait or ability (Preferable a Trait) that allows more damage when using a Sword.

= My logic on this is that Paladin is a A+ using a Sword, while like Red Mage and Blue Mage are lower than that (even if slightly so). They should be more potent when using it, So what about something like

"When using a Sword and Shield, increase damage to the main hand weapon. (Similiar to how Fencer increases damage if a Warrior using a one handed weapon, but it has to be a Shield and Sword combo for paladin)


These are all my suggestions and fixes for job. What you guys think?

Turning cover into a job trait that is always active sounds way too powerful to me, so I woudn't support that. If they would make any changes to cover, i'd like to see it to where it automatically leaps in front of the person you cover like on all the other FF games. That would be nice - as trying to position yourself with that move can be a huge pain in the butt.

I like your change our defense traits into damage reduction traits though. Similiar to the change they did with Sentinel a long time ago, so that suggestion I would support.

I think our shield mastery is fine as is.

Giving Paladins a "counter" ability seems kind of weird to me. I'm not opposed to the idea of adding some kind of retaliation move - but that's a monk thing really, and I'd liek to see the jobs on this game retain their individualality.

[Dale]

I think the best way to adjust Paladin without going overboard would be to give them abilities that would vary based on whether they're equipping 2-handed weapons or the traditional sword/shield.

1-Handed: Paladin would now fill a desirable Tank/Support role. Permanent aura effect that grants 2-tick regain, regen, and refresh. Additionally, a new job ability that absorbs 30% enmity from all surrounding allies (45 second recast). Lastly, on successful shield blocks, the Paladin has a chance of leaving the monster "prone" for a short period of time, increasing critical hit rate and damage of allies (higher % chance the larger the shield).

2-Handed: Paladin would fill a DD/Healing role, getting a "Crusade" buff of sorts. The Paladin would gain a permanent enlight (approx +30% of physical damage dealt) that can crit. Also, a 25~35% increase in cure potency, and a job ability that distributes the damage dealt between the current target of the monster and the Paladin. The job will play quite different than it had in the past.

I like these ideas, pretty cool.

[Dale]

Also, "Cover" is one of the main things that has always defined Paladin. I don't see it it getting turned into a trait, as that is simply too radical, but perhaps substantially extending its duration via traits might work.

.

You can already substantially extend its duration through merits. The main reason paladins don't use this ability more isn't really that it's bad, it's just too huge of a pain to position yourself in front of the desired party member. If they made it to where it automatically got in front of the person for you, I think more paladins would use it. But as it is now, it is such a pain. You have to be almost exactly in front of them for it to trigger + the party member has to have suffient room between you and the monster. It's just annoying to use.

[JagerForrester]

If they could widen the cover area, think it would make it more worth to use? I doubt it since many PLDs got use to standing still. Maybe they should give PLDs a bigger benefit to cover. For example, THFs who Sneak/Trick Attack, increase their effectiveness of Treasure Hunter also with the bonus of making their next attack either a critical or the emnity transferred to the character in front of them.

What if during the ability Cover also increases our Shield blocking and Defense? In my mind, I can see a PLD getting in front of a troubled party member in order to protect them and put up their shield in doing so. I know when I did use Cover (shocker), I didn't do anything to pull hate to myself till Cover wore, as if I put all of my thoughts on defending.

[Judge]

You want to help the job w/o making other jobs suffer too much right?

What if they added a small adjustment to cover?

Cover could also reduce enmity of all party members by 30%(PLD unaffected)Everyone could still perform their job and a 3 minute timer isn't too bad in this case. PLD could tank effectively and those DD's don't have to worry about pulling hate as often. would also offset PLD not having its own voke.. not that voke is worthwhile in hatemongering places like abyssea.

i would also like to see some changes with the curing situation.
Many ppl have said it already but cure4 doesnt cut it AT ALL in abyssea. And outside of abyssea its still only scratches the HP of a PLD. Between the casting time and small amount cured, it can be a hassle to cure yourself or someone else in a hurry.

my Suggestion is this:
(Insert cool name Job Trait)~ PLD Cures only. Instant cast like dancer waltzes. spamming some cures helps control enmity anyway. so being able to do it quickly to "protect" a party member makes sense. and this way no new cures are needed so WHM wont have to worry about its toes being stepped on. with as many ways to recover MP that have been added the MP supply shouldn't even come into play.

[Bilonn]

Cover could also reduce enmity of all party members by 30%(PLD unaffected)

Or even make it a reversed Trick Attack. Anyone under the effect of Cover will receive no enmity from attacks--the Paladin receives it instead. This might make people think of actually staying behind us. Samurai or Blue Mage about to blast a solo skillchain? Have the Paladin cover them, then let loose, and be able to walk off without having picked up any hate.

[JagerForrester]

Or even make it a reversed Trick Attack. Anyone under the effect of Cover will receive no enmity from attacks--the Paladin receives it instead. This might make people think of actually staying behind us. Samurai or Blue Mage about to blast a solo skillchain? Have the Paladin cover them, then let loose, and be able to walk off without having picked up any hate.

Making Cover in that fashion is a little too unbalanced don't you think? The definition of cover doesn't fit covering everyone by standing still.

to place something over or upon, as for protection, concealment, or warmth.
I really think for cover to work is to do what it says. For protection, meaning up our defenses. Like an innate Defender ability latched onto Cover for it's amount of time plus increased shield blocking.

[Tim]

How about leaving paladin the same but giving it a "provoke" ability so that we dont have to sub warrior all the time.

[Gallus]

All these ideas of "higher enmity cap for Paladin", "improve cover", "flash 2", etc are driving me nuts. The problem with Paladin isn't that it needs to be made a better tank per se; it's that it needs to be made more versatile and bring more to a group than being a sponge. Paladin isn't worthless cause it can't provoke more. Paladin isn't useless cause it needs to cover more people. Paladin is useless because a wide array of jobs can sponge now and those jobs also contribute to the party. I'll post my entire list of suggestions and issues I believe plague PLD once I get home. In the meantime, I'd recommend reading my suggestions on page 1 if you haven't.

[Tim]

I was speaking more for survivability and hate control. like a paladin/ninja who has flash and provoke without warrior. that would help a lot. I understand how paladin works and what plagues it. I am fully merrited on enmity and have pretty good gear. My major problem even with atonement is my damage output. when a DD hits for 2000 damage I cannot hold hate long. I am interested to see your list though

[Een]

All Paladin needs is a way to turn from Defensive to Offensive and be able to turn back to Defensive on Demand. It COULD be like any other DD'er, turning that 900 defense into at least 550 attack and then back again when the mob is ontop of you again.

And Monks aren't going to be end all of tanking. I'm sorry, there is so much left to add in this game, monks for one feed too much TP to the mob. You ARE NOT gonna survive a NM that has a regain of 20+/tick that WS's every 4-5 seconds. You'd just be a MP dump.

But to get paladin back up there..yes a 20 second shield bash is needed. 1 Minute Sentinel, Rampart. They need to give paladin Provoke on his own so he can /nin to blink or /mnk for more HP.

And all really they need, even without a GS, is 1 Job ability so they can turn that defense into Offense. Simple as that. My sword skill is insane, it's fully merited, with the amount of +sword skill out there you can do some pretty nasty Vorpal Blades.

Don't think that I do not have a FULL STR build for Vorpal Blade. I can do some pretty NASTY vorpal blades. People don't respect Vorpal Blade for what it can do... Or a Full build for GS WS's for my paladin. All they need is a skill that turns all them defense bonuses they got into actual offense, they could deal enough damage to bring the mob back ontop of them and contend for hate with Skills, Flash, Healing the monk.

SE isn't going to let this job just die. If they are smart, they will turn a Paladin into what a Paladin truely is. A Defensive heavy armored Knight with the ability of getting the hell beat out of them and having the ability to beat the hell out of their target. Knights weren't sissies that just took damage for others. The brought fear and terror to their enemies, hard to kill and could kill you easily.

That is gonna be about the ONLY way to fix PLD. Allow them to have a JA that takes their 5 defense bonuses and turns them into 5 Attack bonuses with ACC along with it. Don't add enmity, just let it be obtained via spells/gear/skills. That is all they have to do. Be able to go from Defensive to Offensive Back to Defensive as needed. Make it like Hasso and Seigan, 1 minute recast, 5 minute duration that way the offense can be turned back into defense and so on and so forth.

They should add this Job Ability in. Call it 'The Calling of a True Knight'. Or 'The Release of a True Knight' because that is what Paladins really were. They were a higher order of Knights, that used a sword and shield and tore through legions of enemies. Instilled complete fear to anyone facing them, knowing they were going to die.

It's a real simple fix. It really is.

[Tim]

See I like your ideas but I think that a 1 minute sentinal and rampart is a bit much. and once you obtain Atonement a paladin should never use vorpal blade again. They need to take the 750 damage cap off of atonement so that a paladin can really do some damage.

[JagerForrester]

Yeah 750 damage for Atonement is good, but limiting. Raising the enmity cap might hinder us too. I can see the Paladins farther away from reaching the cap with the abilities and hate we currently create versus trigger happy DDs and what they can do.

[Martel]

And Monks aren't going to be end all of tanking.

No, but they're pretty damn good at it. Annoying as that is. But they don't have to be the end all. They just have to be more beneficial to have than an actual tank. Which, in most cases they are. They're high class DD, good tanks(and counter tanking makes things die faster), and a Vital part of a Blunt time Blue stagger setup(the most efficient setup to use. WHM+MNK, done).

About the only time you'd actually need a pld, would be in situations where a mnk either can't, or is not allowed to deal dmg for hate. And there aren't many of those now. Ummm, JoL? cept I suspect most ppl just zerg that now. hmm, Cuelebre? He's a flying type so a mnk can't hit him. Cept, with a decent barspell and carols you'd just have all the rng'd/mage dd tank him since he couldn't hurt them at all.


I'm sorry, there is so much left to add in this game, monks for one feed too much TP to the mob. You ARE NOT gonna survive a NM that has a regain of 20+/tick that WS's every 4-5 seconds. You'd just be a MP dump.

Ironically, MNKs are among the DDs that feed a mob the least TP. They have the second highest innate Subtle blow in the game and can easily gear their way to the cap. While still wearing very good DD gear. Chances are pretty good, If you have a decent TP build, you're most likely actually feeding the mob more TP than a good MNK would. Unless you also happen to have a capped subtle blow build, which is quite a bit harder to do on pld(and the DMG output lost is far more depressing..). After that it'd mostly be about who's throwing out the most hits, which'd probly be the MNK. But he'll also be doing far more dmg for a similar amount of TP feed.

But the thing that makes this point mostly irrelevant, is that it really doesn't matter if you MP sponge with the best of them. Unless the mob can one-shot you(and few things can hit 4k all at once) then the WHM should have no trouble keeping you up. 10~15/tick atma refresh, another ~3'ish in gear, WHM cure potency and efficiency, light arts, and sublimation(although, whm usually don't even have to use it anymore) make it very, very hard to run outta mp. So unless those spammy TP attacks can do ~4k dmg faster than a whm can alternate cure 5 and 6, it doesn't really matter. And if they can? They'll probly bring another whm, not a PLD. Bottom line, if the mnk can survive at all, they'll take him over a PLD for the increased dmg, and proc'ing utility.


But to get paladin back up there..yes a 20 second shield bash is needed. 1 Minute Sentinel, Rampart. They need to give paladin Provoke on his own so he can /nin to blink or /mnk for more HP.

I think the only conceivable reason to /MNK would be counterstance, not hp. A PLD with counterstance would be pretty funny though.<,<

As for the JA adjustments... I'd love a 20 second Shield Bash, but iI feel its unlikely. While DNC does get a stun on a 20 second timer, they pay for it in TP via building up finishing moves. If you can't land steps, you can't stun. Which mostly isn't an issue, but its a balancing mechanic.

1 min recast on sentinel ... would be completely an utterly game breaking. With sentinel you'd spend a full 50% of the time with +100 enmity, and 100%~50% PDT that's separate from PDT gear. Which is flat insane.

Rampart. would be pretty hax too.With valor coronet on the duration increases to 45 seconds. You'd have all of 15 seconds of downtime between uses. So you have a near constant magic shield effect, if of limited strength, cast on an entire party. I mostly find magical dmg to be more threatening to me than Physical, so this is quite potent. Additionally with full Iron Will merits you, and pt members nearby, would be rendered completely uninterruptable 3/4ths of the time. I think SE's nerf of 100% spell interrupt- builds, via the aquaveil change, was quite intentional. I don't think they liked us completely circumventing that game mechanic.

Recast are there for a reason, they balance the potency of JA through limiting their use. The reason sentinel and rampart can be as potent as they are is because their use is limited.


Don't think that I do not have a FULL STR build for Vorpal Blade. I can do some pretty NASTY vorpal blades. People don't respect Vorpal Blade for what it can do...

Vorpal Blade is certainly a good sword WS. It's the second best PLD sword WS, with Chant du Cygne being the best. The problem is, despite being a good WS, it can't even begin to compare with monster WS like Ukko's or Victory Smite. Even Chant pales in comparison, and its substantially more powerful than Vorpal. I would like to see that STR build though, I'm curious.


SE isn't going to let this job just die. If they are smart, they will turn a Paladin into what a Paladin truely is. A Defensive heavy armored Knight with the ability of getting the hell beat out of them and having the ability to beat the hell out of their target. Knights weren't sissies that just took damage for others. The brought fear and terror to their enemies, hard to kill and could kill you easily.

The key word here is, Balance. Giving a powerful defensive job top tier offensive capabilities is not conductive to balanced gameplay. And while SE hasn't always(ok, so rarely) managed to balance things out between classes, I do think they try.


That is gonna be about the ONLY way to fix PLD. Allow them to have a JA that takes their 5 defense bonuses and turns them into 5 Attack bonuses with ACC along with it. Don't add enmity, just let it be obtained via spells/gear/skills. That is all they have to do. Be able to go from Defensive to Offensive Back to Defensive as needed. Make it like Hasso and Seigan, 1 minute recast, 5 minute duration that way the offense can be turned back into defense and so on and so forth.

Giving us a mini berserk(even a full time one) isn't going to change anything. The heavy DD's will still out damage us, and other jobs will still have greater general utility. Until we start seeing mobs that absolutely require a PLD's Defensive, and enmity capabilities, to survive and tank, people will continue to use what's most efficient for them. Which is, and continues to be, DD tanks with the needed selection of stagger WS.


They should add this Job Ability in. Call it 'The Calling of a True Knight'. Or 'The Release of a True Knight' because that is what Paladins really were.

Please, no. I don't really object to the idea of the JA. It wouldn't really change PLD's situation, but it wouldn't hurt any either. But please, call it something else. I'd be embarrassed to have either of those names in my JA list. ; ;


And once you obtain Atonement a paladin should never use vorpal blade again. They need to take the 750 damage cap off of atonement so that a paladin can really do some damage.

The thing is, atm, Vorpal blade is vastly superior to Atonement. Sad though it is. Atonement's dmg cap aside, it's still far to limited. Ever since about the VNM update, nearly every NM added has come with at least a base -50% atonement resistance to Atonement. And some mobs are worse. I tried one on Pantokrator once, on two legs(weak to magic mode), and it hit for a whopping 83. There is no doubt that I should have had more than enough hate to cap dmg in that situation. Even if SE were to raise the dmg cap, it'd have to be an amazing increase to make Atonement a good ws again. And there's still that resistance issue...

But really, once you adapt to other WS(and manage to make inv space for WS gear ^^;) its quite freeing using a normal WS. Now I WS to build hate, not build hate to WS. And while mobs with hate resets are still infuriating, and least it doesn't dump my dmg in the gutter every time it happens.

Christ, I shouldn't post when I'm sleepy. I babble. Good night.

[Tim]

Yes the NM hate reset is one thing that I think killed paladin tanks. I wish that they would change that.

[Een]

Well of course Atonement, but since there is a 750 cap on damage that is why I was talking about Vorpal.

It's just ideas...I just DON'T want to see Paladin Die. (I started playing this game just because of the job) and I DON'T want to see Monk be the only thing used for tanking.

I'm just tossing ideas out there, but ya 1 min sentinel and rampart would be way too convenient. But it was just the ideas I have and have had for quite some time now. I am myself a devoted Paladin, but I'm a ninja 90% more often....just because the way the game turned out.

SE better do something....they've always fixed jobs that needed fixing, if Paladins won't be main tanks anymore, they at least need to allow them to turn the tables and let that defense turn into offense.

But until they allow more damage for Atonement, I can break 750 Vorpals easily. I don't even have my Creed Gloves yet and I have almost 400 sword skill. They should have never capped enmity or dmg done by Atonement.....

THEY MUST FIX PALADIN!!!!!

[Een]

Please, no. I don't really object to the idea of the JA. It wouldn't really change PLD's situation, but it wouldn't hurt any either. But please, call it something else. I'd be embarrassed to have either of those names in my JA list. ; ;



The thing is, atm, Vorpal blade is vastly superior to Atonement. Sad though it is. Atonement's dmg cap aside, it's still far to limited.


Well I was just suggesting things. But the name would fit no matter how corny it is. But yes, I was just throwing stuff out there..I was really tired when I wrote all that this morning...it kept me up actually cause I wanted to say everything. But yes, the name is horrible that I suggested. But a word meaning something along those lines could be used to fit.

Cause in medieval times..if you were the opposition and you ran into a True Paladin you were screwed. The real life Knights of old were hard as hell to kill. In retrospect SE's Paladin is completely wrong to what a real Paladin would have been. Polearm masters, they could use their sword and shield to kill and to a normal fighter, a Knight would rape many before he would fall. If I was in war in medieval days, the last thing I would want to run into would be a Knight in full heavy armor wielding a sword that could cut you in half, or a Shield that could be bashed into your face breaking it completely. Their armor basically impenetrable, so not only could they chop you in two, you just couldn't kill them. SE should respect that side and FIX PALADIN!

And, EVERY other game but FFXI, a Paladin is not just one of the most out front job, they are also DD'ers. SE tried to make 1 job to do 1 thing and 1 thing only. And it is the ONLY job that they did this to.

Samurai with full Third Eye merits and Relic legs can achieve what 20 second recast? They can be defensive, there is even gear that allows for that and dmg reduction. Their AF1 and 2 was basically designed around that. The concept was that Sam was to be a mid level DD'er that had tanking abilities. War can tank, /nin has provoke, retaliation, defender, hate abilities. WAR has offerings to alot of defensive armors....of course NIN tanks, DRK could in a way.. if someone had a reason, there are VIT/HP and Def builds they COULD put on there...but its all bout changing the job...for a GOOD reason, there is no good reason to have a DRK try to tank, that's why PLD is there to take the damage. But since that traditional build will not work anymore, why not pull defense and allow some of the true offense of a Paladin to be unleashed.

But for some reason, PLD is the ONLY job SE wanted to try this complete 1 sidedness on. There was and still is no reason for them to continue to keep paladin such a 1 sided job only. It's either build and use PLD right, or you are a LOLPLD trying to DD, will be looked over for anything other than PLD tanking.....it's time for a major change!

Edited and added the following:

STR and ACC/Attk build for WS macros aren't hard for PLD, especially since the prices on most things have dropped like crazy.

Just to sum it up I use Joyeuse, Optical Hat, Haubergeon +1, Alky Bracelets, Cerb Mantle, Warwolf Belt, Ryl. Knights Breeches, Rutter Sabatons, STR rings or ACC rings, (I use STR cause I use Optical hat on head), 2x STR earrings are cheap now, or one could use Assault Earring, Cassie Earring, Uh...Fowling Earring, Chivalrous Chain, and That +3 STR shield...(forget name, enhances "Killer" effects).

There is room for improvement there....but I have no problem actually. I always used to, like when I was leveling up to 75, use Sentinel, then Berserk so I wouldn't take too much dmg and then Vorpal. Canceling Berserk when Sentinel starts to fade. Or Warcry then Vorpal.

I used to shock people that I actually carried that with me, but it made me feel more useful, even at that time 500 ish damage was great. Then I capped sword with merits, used Fortitude Neck, Suppa in my WS macros and I can still at level 80 do some decent damage with Vorpal Blade.

But I do see what you are saying...even with the mini-berserk or a constant activated berserk we wouldn't out DD another job. BUT, it would be 'acceptable' to add a PLD to the party being capable of putting out a steady amount of damage with an Offensive Job Ability.

But I think, for something like this to work. They would have to Add an Enmity generation to the offensive skill. That is how PLD's would be able to get and maintain hate also. Not just DD to keep hate, DD'ing actually leading to hate on a superior level to ANY and ALL melee jobs. When a Paladin couldn't keep the hate with just defensive and was or is forced to take a back seat while the monk tanks, switching to a offensive set with offensive Ability making it possible through melee DD'ing, WS'ing, Curing to gain that hate back.

And then, when you could focus enough of it back onto you, switch back to defensive mode. I mean it would be a perk if the MORE VIT and DEF you have the more you could turn into offense.

I don't know, it's just an idea. Not really a Berserk effect, but more of turning that Creed Armor, the DEF, VIT, HP, AGI, etc and that deciding how much attack, accuracy it would give. Rather than just having a JA like Berserk and switching to offensive gear. See what I'm trying to say? What I'm thinking is a little more complicated than a constant berserk from a JA.

More of a 'Stance' I guess you could say. Defensive stance, using your gear as it is shown/equipped. Then an Offensive Stance, turning that VIT/DEF/DEF Bonuses into a workable Offense, ACC, Attack, with something like "melee hits and WS's generate more enmity" in the description. Making both Stances linked at 1 min recasts, (Like Hasso and Seigan), with a 5 minute duration. That way you could go offensive on a certain level without a sub job making you that.

But the effect would have to be just helping a paladin deal extra damage and not being able to tank as that. Kinda like tanking with Berserk on all the time, would be stupid. You would have to change stances when taking damage.

But, something like this would cause a Paladin to be Acceptable in a party...even if he wasn't the tank, his damage wouldn't that of other jobs, BUT he would be useful and it would be worth pulling out your weapon and attacking. WS'ing, support DD'er. 45 Second Shield Bash, make it = to Stun spell.

[Martel]

"Real life knights" were easily potted by any peasant with a decent long bow. Or by any footsoldier with a crossbow. Plate and mail was far from impenetrable. A decent english long bow could put an arrow right through a steel breastplate at something like 50 yards. Real knights were slow, incredibly expensive, and horribly inefficient as soldiers. They did make a pretty impressive spectacle though.. Till one of them falls off his horse and has to be lifted back on with a freaking crane. <,<

Every other FF... is a single player game.(cept 14, but lol.) It's fine if PLDs are all around badass in those. There's no balance between players and roles to maintain, for the most part.

Good reason? There is a good reason to have DDs tank. It works better. Mobs die faster, and other jobs have more general utility. And, vit/def builds? No one tanks in those. PDT gear man. But only when you need it, most of the time your gonna need DD gear on to have any chance of having hate.

[Gallus]

I apologize if you thought my previous comment was directed at you Tim. it wasn't pointed at anyone in particular. I've posted my writing in a new thread, as it's an overhaul to the class.

[Mordanthos]

A lot of people talk about changing Enmity and other such things, but I had a long discussion on another board about this and a few things I will be listed seem to make the most sense, while not giving too much of a heavy change to the game (Unless I note so otherwise.)

Note - This is about changing existing traits/abilities, etc not adding new ones (for the most part)

1) Change Job Ability - "Cover" Into a Job Trait. (and Add Cover II or even Cover III as well)

= If the paladin stands infront of a party member who has main hate (most hate), they will cover that party member.

Each increase in the trait (II and III) will increase the chance of a paladin blocking with a shield while covering.

2) Change Job Trait - "Defense Bonus" to "Damage Reduction"

= A increase and defense does not seem to make much change as the levels go higher in a sense of reducing damage, however turning the traits into Damage Reduction, lets say. "Damage Reduction I - V" Gives a 5% gain each time for lets say lv 99 with 25% dmg reduction. This would allow paladin to take more hits and increase it's use without making other jobs less useful or over powering pld as a DD.

3) Updating Job Trait "Shield Mastery"

= A job that is the main user for shields should have a bit more of a boost to using a shield, in contrast to wanting to dual wield as a /nin or /dnc

For example, lets say it should increase the damage rate when using Shield Bash (which would make it a bit more useful overall) so there is currently 3 Shield Mastery traits, so lets do the dmg increase by 25% with each trait, so lets say Shield bash does 30 dmg at lv 90 + 4 traits = +75% so +22 dmg making it do 55 dmg with shield bash

Or if not a damage increase, than with each trait, the stun effect last longer?


NOW, we go on to minor adds to the job.

1) Add Job Trait - "Counter" (Or something similiar)

= I know this thing is big for Monk, but hear me out. A paladin is a Shield and sword combo class. So we can give it a Counter like trait, where if you successfully block with a shield you have a 5-10% chance of countering with your weapon (Sword in this case) But the trait can only work if you have a shield.

2) A job trait or ability (Preferable a Trait) that allows more damage when using a Sword.

= My logic on this is that Paladin is a A+ using a Sword, while like Red Mage and Blue Mage are lower than that (even if slightly so). They should be more potent when using it, So what about something like

"When using a Sword and Shield, increase damage to the main hand weapon. (Similiar to how Fencer increases damage if a Warrior using a one handed weapon, but it has to be a Shield and Sword combo for paladin)


These are all my suggestions and fixes for job. What you guys think?

If the main goal is to tank, and your lvl 90....most Paladins are going to sub warrior, and with a warrior sub at 45, u get Fencer..so u want a fencer trait on top of a fencer trait. They get dmg bonus from warrior sub, they get defender from warrior, defense bonus, fencer, double attack, i mean, they have quite a bit that i dont think its really neccesary to give them more. The easiest solution is to take a cap off of threat, if im at the cap threat, and someone does some 928347239 dmg WS its obviously going to cap them too, but if theres no cap.....i have time to generate threat over the Enmity that the 32894723 dmg skill will do, and effectively still hold threat after that WS is used, for how long? idk how long, depends what else they dish out, or exactly how close to my threat lvl that the dmg brought them.


Its not hard. Easiest solution is to remove the threat cap, dur durr durrrr

[Mordanthos]

Not only that...Provoke should be a skill that puts you equal to, or just above the person who has the most threat, if its on a 30 second CD, i dont think this is much to ask for. Its a skill designed to "Goad your enemies into attacking you". Kinda stupid when you provoke and nothing happens and you have to wait another 30 seconds and have nothing happen again. Having provoke place you on the top of the threat equal to or just slightly over the highest threat player seems to be a no brainer to me. But it wont happen. So hey, threat will never be balanced in a way that it can be effectively controlled.

[DamonWolfe]

The easiest thing, isn't always the best thing to do, just saying Mordanthos.

A ability like provoke that is for the pld job (not as /war) would work better, as just making Provoke better wouldn't help pld, and hurt it more (more reason not to use pld if it can work just as well for other jobs)

A provoke like ability that allows all hate (or most) from party members (within range) to be transfered to the paladin (Think of it as a AoE of Accomplice and Collaborator) and make the recast time as 30 seconds like normal provoke.

That way a pld/war can normal provoke and when it loses hate control it can use this new ability to transfer the hate back to itself.

and I really think they should just make Cover a job trait, since it being a passive ability would allow better protect for the party without having to worry about recast time or other issues

(Like As long as the paladin is infront of someone who has the most hate in their party, they can cover them.)

[Seha]

It may not be the thing that will change the paladin's life at this time, but I've always thought it should have this trait:

Stalwart: Prevents knockback.

Very simple. Nothing gamebreaking, but should be a given for a paladin to be able to stand still while others can't!

[Satyr]

I posted this in another thread but Im reposting here hoping that it might get seen in a thread with a better title.

The solution to fixing PLDs is not to nerf the other tanking jobs or create mobs that only PLDs can tank. The solution is to fix PLDs. To do this we must identify the key issues...which are:

How can PLD damage mitigation be brought in line with the other tanking jobs?
How can PLD damage be brought up to par in terms of being a favorable tank for kill speed as well as keeping high enmity?

I suggest the following very easy tweaks that would address both of these issues:

1. Bring PLD Parry skill up to A+.
-I do not understand why a job that is meant to be "the" tank does not have an A+ in defensive skills, and in the case of parry PLD gets a C rating. Parrying is something that (in the real world) is an integral part of swordsmanship. In FFXI PLD has an A+ in sword, thus using a little real world logic they should have an A+ in parry also. And like I said...they are "the" tank of FFXI...they should get A+ defensive skills. Parrying more helps keep enmity high as well as reduce damage taken.

2. With the above change, give PLD the Tactical Parry Trait.
-It just makes sense and fits the job.

3. Bring PLD Evasion up to higher than a C.
-I am not asking for an A+ here just improve it a bit. It is a defensive skill and thus should be higher for that simple fact.

4. Make Defense Bonus III and up significantly reduce the amount of enmity lost from taking damage.
-Something like Defense bonus III reduces enmity loss by 10%, IV by an additional 15%, and V by an additional 25%, thus a lv 90 PLD would have 50% less enmity lost from taking damage.

5. Give PLD the Fencer trait.
-The fact that PLD does not have fencer boggles me. It is a trait that seems as though should have been designed for PLDs and only for PLDs. They are the one job in the game that is known for being the "sword and board" job. PLDs should get Fencer I around lv 30-35 and by LV 90 should have 5 ranks of it.

6. Boost bast PLD HP up slightly to where they would have only a little less Max HP than MNKs.
-Any class designed to blood tank should not have less hp than a class that was originally designed to DD. That being said I am only asking for more base HP while allowing MNK to still have the highest.

All of these are fairly simple changes that could help to bring PLD up to par with NIN and MNK with regards to tanking.

[Gropitou]

Paladins also need a reliable interrupt. Shield bash on a 5 min cool down isn't too useful. It should be changed to like 10 or 15 sec to be more in line with head butt...

Like this idea a lot. Both are similar effect but with a huge difference in recast times, fix it.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Except Headbutt is a gimp Stun effect most Nms resist while Shield bash is Paladin's counterpart to Weapon Bash and works 95-99% of the time or so?

[Bulrogg]

I thought the idea of cover as a trait in the original post was an interesting idea. I also agree that shield bash (weapon bash as well) should be adjusted. Would it be possible to have ...Bash JA work like charges kinda the way a SCH has charges?

[Raka]

Actually, I do like the idea of Cover being changed into a Job Trait, as it's too much of a hassle to use for only 30sec~ when the person you use it on doesn't always sit still so you can actually cover them...

This change would make people more alert and stop running around like chickens with their heads cut off.

The downside to this though is if it is a 100% proc, it could be game breaking for certain events. Black mages and Samurai, etc. could idle behind the Paladin without worry of beig harmed by any Non-Area Effecting attacks, etc..

At the very least I think reducing the Cover recast to 1~1.5min would be a bit more fair along with adjusting the angle of degree to where the target you wish to Cover has to be at to be Covered. If this were a smaller recastable ability it will also make it more commonly used enough to encourage players to actually stop running from the defending Paladin's protection.

Another thing Paladin is going to require soon is Cure V as Cure IV can no longer keep up with the larger spikes of damage dealt to players now. Atleast by level 99 it should be considered once the content has been properly tested enough to make a successful debate on if it's still needed or not, however... As it stands now, Paladin to some extent requires the Cure V assistance incase they need to toss out a couple heals on their allies should the situation be grim with a follow-up Cure IV on theirself for that extra hate generation and still restore enough HP to last over until they can get another Cure or so in there.

Cure V is completely debatable though, but shouldn't in any way be game breaking atleast.

As for Shield Bash recast reduction being lowered to 10~15 seconds, I am not sure that will be concidered. Not that low atleast as the proc is 99% with the exception of select NM that either have high resistance to Stun or are immune to it; Also the duration is rather long on average. It would be more reasonable to have it at 2min30sec recast at most, 1min00sec minimal.

Paladin does need some work now though as they have lost the ability to tank most of the NM in the game, but I expect this to be temporarily until the level 99 content is released. I love the ideas still that everyone has submitted here still, let's keep up the brainstorming guys!

[Jar]

Actually, I do like the idea of Cover being changed into a Job Trait, as it's too much of a hassle to use for only 30sec~ when the person you use it on doesn't always sit still so you can actually cover them...

This change would make people more alert and stop running around like chickens with their heads cut off.


Why not leave the JA and make a job trait that would proc like 50%ish(might even be to much)? that way the blm and such would still be at risk if they pulled to much hate

[Teraniku]

Yeah 750 damage for Atonement is good, but limiting. Raising the enmity cap might hinder us too. I can see the Paladins farther away from reaching the cap with the abilities and hate we currently create versus trigger happy DDs and what they can do.

Since mobs can do it, why can't the PLD have a "Hate Reset Move" Which resets enmity to zero for everyone in the Party but the PLD. put it on a oh let's say 10 minute timer and I think that could work.

[Cream_Soda]

Since mobs can do it, why can't the PLD have a "Hate Reset Move" Which resets enmity to zero for everyone in the Party but the PLD. put it on a oh let's say 10 minute timer and I think that could work.
What would be the point in that? PLD's concern isn't enmity, its DD jobs being able to tank and deal a lot more damage at the same time.

Fill two "old school" party slots with one character.

[DreamerGuyAliquis]

I've been reading posts on this forum all day about PLD and possible adjustments and fixes... but it seems like most of these ideas don't really fix the underlying problem...

You can mess with enmity formulas all day, and give PLD 100% Cover Job Trait, Give them 5 provokes natively, what have you.
That won't fix it. It still won't make people think "hmmm I need a PLD in this party to tank in Abyssea." for most things.
People would still just have the MNK go all out and Tank all day while doing ridiculous damage, and just have the WHM cure bomb them.
Why?
Because the Mob dies faster doing that. Sometimes having the best offense IS the best defense.
Why should all the DDs hold back so the PLD can keep hate, if there is no consequence to them taking hate? (and in MNKs case, extreme benefit.)

Its a balancing headache really.
The only "solutions" I can think of are:

1) Make the new Mobs so ridiculously powerful that nothing can tank it except a PLD.
(oops, but then, the game becomes rigid again. You NEED X job for X, all other jobs inferior, etc)

2) Start swinging Nerf bats.
(thats just lose/lose for everyone)

3) Buff PLDs Damage Dealing Capabilities While It Is Tanking.

Now before you all start screaming and crying that that isn't balanced, that PLD is only supposed to be 100% defense or some such, think about this idea.

For a PLD to be relevant again, it needs to evolve and adapt to how things are working now.
We need to look at why MNK excels so much now at tanking now, and apply it to PLD with some unique finesse (just slaping on "PLDcounterstanceAbility!" is kinda uninspired)

It is the duty of Paladins to defend others and doing so, makes you want to fight harder; what if a PLD got certain Damage Dealing bonuses/Abilities for Defending other players?

This concept could be centered around Cover.

Make Cover on a lower recast and make it a "stance" of sorts.

Each attack the PLD intercepts while under cover increases the PLDs "Righteousness", a special buff that increases numerically (similar to finishing moves).
Each point in Righteousness increases the PLDs Attack and Haste/FastCast. (+enimity?)

Righteousness doesn't last a long time, it decreases over time when you aren't defending someone with Cover.

Additionally, Righteousness points could be used to activate other abilities.
Such as refreshing Shield Bash, or Cover again.

Or they can be used to buff a Cure spell, Holy/Banish for increased Damage/enimity?

[DamonWolfe]

I can see from most of these posts that any real change we can all agree on for sure is something fixing/updating Cover.

Reducing cast time doesn't solve the hate control issue, as hate can spin around between DDs and it makes it difficult to keep attention on one, even more so with a limited time to use it's ability.

In the sense of Cover, I still believe making it a trait is what would work best. It is on at all times, as long as other party members are behind the paladin, they get the effect. but wait, wouldnt everyone just stand by the paladin and no one else takes damage? adjust it so that you make the paladin have to do something by moving around to who needs it. instead of it just being behind the paladin, make it where you have to be directly behind the paladin, in sense. If two people are behind the paladin, if Person A is behind Paladin, and Person B is behind Person A, Person B does not gain Cover effect, since the paladin is not Directly in front of them. This way the paladin has to move to each person.

This would be the smallest fix as even the biggest damage (A brewing DD doing 15k+ dmg in a WS) can be protected by the paladin.

Now of course in Abyssea, which is the main endgame zone at the moment, most jobs dont need to cover since they can do great damage and have a better chance of surviving with High HP, High Damage and Whms Cure Bombing. So what would make paladin stand out again without reducing others in any way and keep the game balanced?

Damage Reduction Traits. +Defense is not bad but at higher levels that bit of extra defense doesn't do much to help paladin's side, but with up to 25% damage reduction. pld would be more useful to tank.

Say a monk is fighting and takes 600 damage from a hit, now paladin just with the traits take 450 damage. in 5 hits mnk took 3000 Dmg and pld took 2250 dmg, meaning it took one less hit than normal

[Evilaion]

Once the game moves out of aby pld will be again be a great tank, considering if the mobs can devastate other jobs via tp spam or spell spam. What pld does need though is a hp/mp/mdt boost. And along with that perhaps an ability to take Dmg almost like manawall but in the plds case 1/3 the damage is taken from mp instead of hp. Make it a sort of stance or something. Or a merit ability.

[Cream_Soda]

Once the game moves out of aby pld will be again be a great tank, considering if the mobs can devastate other jobs via tp spam or spell spam.
I guess pld is the only job that can wear PDT and MDT gear

[Aeonk]

Alright, time to throw out an idea of my own.

Seeing as how the playerbase trend has shifted towards emphasis on DD'ing, it makes sense to continue that route. DD'ing has been just as much a factor in tanking as staying alive. That aspect became blatant with the introduction of Atonement (and the MNK tank in abyssea... although they were tanking things like salvage bosses in the past.)

So as a means of keeping PLD competant in it's own field, upping damage is the only realistic way to do it (besides the nerf bat.) Almace helps immensely with this, and while I personally think it's good enough to justify a PLD being in a party/alliance, others may not share the sentiment.

Anywho... on to the idea.
How about something along the lines of a job trait or ability that reduces weapon delay based on enmity? Something on par with NIN's tier of Dual Wield or MNK's Martial Arts traits.

But if that sounds overpowered, there could be a stipulation like if you fall below 50% or 75% HP, the trait is inactive. Said stipulation gives us incentive to use our magic (along with dmg reduction gear), rather than wait for the WHM to take notice and Cure V you. It also makes enmity spiking JA's more useful.

Just a thought.

[axlzero]

I've always thought it would be interesting and fun if PLD would get a Trait that would allow it to use Shields with Great Swords.
C'mon, Great Swords really don't have a main job.
Yes, yes, DRK and WAR use them.... yeah not really! DRK is all about Scythes, and they are vehement about it as people freak out when a PLD isn't "SWORD + BOARD or GTFO" (even when GS, club, and staff are already situationally useful.)
Giving PLDs the option of great sword, and letting them retain Shield could help give PLDs some DD + defensive options to employ in abyssea and in future areas. Traits, job ability and or Stances could be employed to balance this

-STANCES- (like NIN, WHM and SAM employ to their jobs) would be a great addition to PLD.
A way for PLD to Maximize Defense, Healing Magic, etc, while actually tanking and then a way for them to Maximize their offense to regain enmity when the mob is looking at the MNKs, i mean DDs.

Why not give PLD some Holy Destructive power? if a MNK can be the be all end all Tank + DD... may as well buff PLD up and give it some more relevance. i kind of like this ideah how about bucklers become a arm or sholder wearing shield that can be used with two handed weapons on all jobs

[axlzero]

if you ask me i know the frustration of being a paladin and trying to keep hate and being really reliant on mp and buffs to keep hate. paladins should be able to use there shields as a weapon like a ninja dual weilding 2 katanas why not paladin dual weilding a one handed weapon and a shield. shields should do better damage then what shield bash puts out. over haul the base def of all shields to a higher number and make that def number also there attack also add a few shield base weapon skills that either dish out stat enfeebles to enemys or buffs the paladin and party. even better the shield adds a ws onto any ws you use with your main hand example you do attonment shield closes attonment with some kind of shield bashing ws that causes a burst if you do spirits within the shield follows up by healing the paladin with the energy taken if you savage blade the shield on landing will do savage uppercut and launch enemy into the air and stun them. then you can always get some kind of counterbash on every shield block

i have always said that the kinds of armor that paladin has had horrible stats they dont do enough and require massive macroing to i would like to see armor that is more versitile and offer a better assortment of stats or some way to merge stats of current armors in the game to make them into better suits. Paladins main problem is horrible weak base damage numbers on there swords that you can choose, not everyone can get a burtgang or an excaliubur at 75 swords needed to have a base attack of 44 minimal and most decent ones were in there 30's other then bluemage no job really uses swords and relys on them like pld the heavy espandon types had good damage but stats were lousy for tanking and delay was slow an espandon type sword with emnity and def stats or double attack attributes would of been nice back then. the other problem is clubs paladin was origonally meant to be a undead killer and club has the best effect against undead but there are no really decent maces or clubs for pld the ones that are there are really slow also paladin should be able to get hexa strike. as far as greatsword goes on pld well staff has higher combat power how about good staff weapons for pld i use to use a primate staff and staff fight solo with spirit taker i could last forever there is always the possiblity that staff tanking could come back on pld as long as the staff offers some good attack stats as well as dmg down basically if you ever capped out combat skills on pld prior to level cap raise you would find that sword shield club and staff were the highest and polearm and greatsword 2nd

as far as improveing ablities well sheild bash needs to be every 30 second and have more hit power and should have several types of bashes that can inflict anything from stun (shield bash) to paralize (shield crash) to sleep (shield head crush) or silence ( shield throat jab)

extra job ablities well someone sugested goad or something i like that paladin has always needed a voke that dont take mp but other then vokes paladin needs job abities that improve attack how about one that when used the next attacks blocked by shield are absorbed and turned into tp mp or hp or damage is built up and returned in the next ws pld does.

as far as always active traits well if pld aint gonna hit hard then hit often give pld triple attack and counterbash ability with shield
those are my suggestions other then more types of spells for pld

[Doombringer]

it's not a paladin problem.. it's a ffxi problem.

maybe if they gimped counter and retaliation hard, people would have less incentive to use dd's as tanks.. but even then.. why not use a ninja?

so now you either need mobs that spam aoe, or swing crazy fast to tear down shadows. if it spams aoe then why bother with a tank. your pt is still getting wrecked.

and if it swings crazy fast, that's just more opportunities for counter or retaliation to proc, so you better have gimped those already. you should probably also make sure the mob hits crazy hard so ONLY a pld can survive it. cuz if any job that outdmgs pld can hold hate and survive, that will be the better option.

it's just the way it is, you only need as much defense as you need to survive the fight, but you can never have enough offense. the mob could always die faster.

it's gotten so bad that i don't think pld can be made relevant without revamping the way the game works.. for example... change the way th works so it builds more steadily over time, but then raise or remove the cap on it. this would at least make an argument for drawing a battle out. NOT killing an nm asap. giving the thf as much time as possible to build as much th as possible. but then you also have to change the way loot drops. if a mob can only drop 1 of an item ANYWAY then you only need enough th to make it drop 1.. and again.. if the war, mnk, or nin can just SURVIVE while this is going on, while holding hate... then they are still competing for that spot..

that's just one random example, but the point is... it's not about making pld a tank.. it's about making HAVING a tank at all worthwhile. right now we don't generally need ANY defense centric job, and we'd only be hurting ourselves by using one.

[Blaksen]

Since Abyssea seems to be Paladin's main problem, I was thinking that adding new Atma designed to help the job DD tank in the zones would assist it greatly.

For example Atma of Monkey Grip: Allows the character to wield a 2 handed weapon with a shield. Along with stats somewhat comparable to high level atma like VV RR and Paladin would have a much better chance of keeping hate.

[Zagen]

Since Abyssea seems to be Paladin's main problem, I was thinking that adding new Atma designed to help the job DD tank in the zones would assist it greatly.
PLD was out dated as a tank in almost every event before Abyssea the difference back then a lot of people didn't want to risk it either due to fear or poor support for a nonPLD tank.

[Bilonn]

Since Abyssea seems to be Paladin's main problem, I was thinking that adding new Atma designed to help the job DD tank in the zones would assist it greatly.

For example Atma of Monkey Grip: Allows the character to wield a 2 handed weapon with a shield. Along with stats somewhat comparable to high level atma like VV RR and Paladin would have a much better chance of keeping hate.

Or instead of an atma, since this is to fix a specific job, make it a job trait of some kind. Give it to PLD at .. say Lvl 60, that a shield can be equipped along with a 2-h weapon, such as a polearm or greatsword. It shouldn't do very much, though it might take a tiny graphical tweak to draw the shield on the back of the hand while using 2-h weapon--maybe changing stances so the shield doesn't block the face of the char. But make a trait this way.

This won't fix the job, but it would be a unique addition for a pld--giving a little more to them...

[Greatguardian]

PLD was out dated as a tank in almost every event before Abyssea the difference back then a lot of people didn't want to risk it either due to fear or poor support for a nonPLD tank.

This.

The only thing that prevented PLD from being more widely obsolete pre-Abyssea was people. It was all in the mind. Groups that weren't afraid of change were using DD tanks years ahead of Abyssea.

[Aeonk]

This.

The only thing that prevented PLD from being more widely obsolete pre-Abyssea was people. It was all in the mind. Groups that weren't afraid of change were using DD tanks years ahead of Abyssea.
I wouldn't say that. I'd say it was that jobs were more well defined in whatever niche role they filled in prior endgame. But they were still capable of crossing the line per se.

Pre-Abyssea when you heard DRK what popped into your head? Zerging. It was what DRK was used for, and that was fine. A good DRK knew how to tank, and tools like Apoc generally help. But that was more the player than the job's specifications.

RDM tanking was rather popular on mobs that Atonement spam wasn't applicable on. And at the end of the day, it took a good RDM to tank. Not one that grew up as a Refresh/Haste bot.

I'm pretty sure there's a video floating around Youtube somewhere of a BLM/NIN tanking Byakko. Any job can be thrown into a tank role, provided the player knows how to tank and has adequate support to do it. PLD was just the default tank because they were easier to gear (homam, MDT, fire resist: done) and easier to play. And it was sufficient, it wasn't detrimental to have a PLD over another job. May not of been 100% optimal but it easily got the job done.


Now with abyssea, damage has spiked so high that it is quite literally the only hate tool that makes sense to use. Thus making the average turtle PLD not just obsolete, but incapable of tanking at all.

[Greatguardian]

Well, the average turtle PLD was always obsolete and incapable of tanking at all. That's a given. DDs may hit hate cap in 15-30 seconds these days, but that does not mean they were unable to easily hit it in 60-90 seconds pre-Abyssea.

You're absolutely right when you say all jobs are/were capable of crossing the line. Heck, in some cases (SAM, MNK, DRK, sometimes NIN), "DD" jobs were better tanks than PLDs were long before Abyssea came out. Really, the only reason a lot of good players were unable to tank regularly on those jobs were misconceptions by their group, especially bad/mediocre White Mages who had a tendency to only focus on curing "Tank" jobs while everyone else could just die and it would be "their own fault" (this makes me rage so hard).

When it really comes down to it, Paladin has never really taken much less damage than any other job with equivalent defensive gear. Most every melee job can cap PDT and MDT in sets if they so choose, it's simply a matter of getting a competent player who actually has those sets. Shield has always been a bit of a crapshoot, and other jobs can most definitely match Pld's Enmity gain and damage reduction in other ways (Seigan, Stuns, Counters, etc).

I suppose what I'm saying is, in an environment with higher end players who were able to deal lots of damage on their DDs and had proper gear sets, Paladin has been obsolete for a very very long time. It just seems a bit more widespread now because, in Abyssea, even full Aurore trash can deal respectable damage with Atmas and Cruor buffs while rocking 3,500 HP, while even full teal Whms have infinite MP.

The problem has become more visible to social/casual players, but most higher-end endgamers have been seeing this for years now.

[Raka]

Here is an idea I had as one way to help out Paladin. Still working out the bugs, but feel free to post your thoughts on it.


Name: Endurance
Type: Job Ability
Recast: 5:00
Duration: 3:00
Target: Self

Description: Negates enmity loss, gradually lowers allies enmity with each successive shield block.

Notes:

- Will only decay party/alliance members enmity on the current target the Paladin is fighting.
- Will negate enmity loss from all forms of damage.

[Dale]

All these ideas of "higher enmity cap for Paladin", "improve cover", "flash 2", etc are driving me nuts. The problem with Paladin isn't that it needs to be made a better tank per se; it's that it needs to be made more versatile and bring more to a group than being a sponge. Paladin isn't worthless cause it can't provoke more. Paladin isn't useless cause it needs to cover more people. Paladin is useless because a wide array of jobs can sponge now and those jobs also contribute to the party. I'll post my entire list of suggestions and issues I believe plague PLD once I get home. In the meantime, I'd recommend reading my suggestions on page 1 if you haven't.

First off, paladins are not useless. They provide a powerful blend of high defense and cure power no other job can, and can even play a powerful support role with the right sub job and equipment. If players fail to utilize all of their strengths that isn't the fault of the paladin.

I'm tired of other paladins complaining that so many other jobs can tank. They are MELEE classes, they are MEANT TO TANK. Warriors, monks, even dragoons...ninjas - these jobs are suppose to melee. Melee jobs TANK. The fact they do more damage than paladins is the way it should be. Paladins have greater defense so they should have lesser offense than some of the other tanks. So what if other tanks can kill faster. Too many people are making a big fuss out of nothing. It would be utterly stupid if paladins were the only viable tanks in the game and people had to recruit one else they could not kill anything.

[Zagen]

First off, paladins are not useless. They provide a powerful blend of high defense and cure power no other job can, and can even play a powerful support role with the right sub job and equipment. If players fail to utilize all of their strengths that isn't the fault of the paladin.
None of this is needed in a tank outside of Voidwatch currently.

Edit: BTW a BLU provides higher DEF and Cure power than PLD. As well as much more damage.

[Dale]

None of this is needed in a tank outside of Voidwatch currently.

Edit: BTW a BLU provides higher DEF and Cure power than PLD. As well as much more damage.

I disagree blue mage provides a higher DEf than paladin. They may have better heals, but when you take into account the paladin's shield, i think they significantly trump Blue Mage on physical defense.

[Greatguardian]

I disagree blue mage provides a higher DEf than paladin. They may have better heals, but when you take into account the paladin's shield, i think they significantly trump Blue Mage on physical defense.

BLU has a higher Defense stat, which everyone knows is useless as hell and that was his point. PLD's "Defense" is utter crap. PLD's Shield? Less crappy crap, but still crap.

Inb4: "It's not crappy just because 5-10+ jobs can do it better, because I can do it at a standard which I believe to be acceptable and contentious"

[Dale]

BLU has a higher Defense stat, which everyone knows is useless as hell and that was his point. PLD's "Defense" is utter crap. PLD's Shield? Less crappy crap, but still crap.

Inb4: "It's not crappy just because 5-10+ jobs can do it better, because I can do it at a standard which I believe to be acceptable and contentious"

lol...well it doesn't surprise me you are now saying defense sucks as well. Everything (but you i'm sure) sucks according to you :)

It doesn't matter that Blue has a higher defense stat - though that's debatable as a pld can sub blue and use cocoon as well. When you take into account the Paladin's ability to frequently block damage with his shield his physical defense trumps that of a blue mage. I never limited my comments to just the pure defense stat and nothing else. There is a lot more to defense than just the raw stat and all sorts of factors that contribute to how well a character can withstand damage.

That being said I disagree with you that defense is usless as hell. So if that was his point i disagree with him on that as well. I find a high defense to make a huge difference, and even on occasion sub blue to my red mage for the added survival. So in no way is it "useless as hell". Just another example of your silly need to call everything sucky and useless.

[Zagen]

lol...well it doesn't surprise me you are now saying defense sucks as well. Everything (but you i'm sure) sucks according to you :)

It doesn't matter that Blue has a higher defense stat - though that's debatable as a pld can sub blue and use cocoon as well. When you take into account the Paladin's ability to frequently block damage with his shield his physical defense trumps that of a blue mage. I never limited my comments to just the pure defense stat and nothing else. There is a lot more to defense than just the raw stat and all sorts of factors that contribute to how well a character can withstand damage.

That being said I disagree with you that defense is usless as hell. So if that was his point i disagree with him on that as well. I find a high defense to make a huge difference, and even on occasion sub blue to my red mage for the added survival. So in no way is it "useless as hell". Just another example of your silly need to call everything sucky and useless.

MNKs who roll Counterstance full time with a whooping 60-100ish DEF would like to have a word with you...

[Dale]

MNKs who roll Counterstance full time with a whooping 60-100ish DEF would like to have a word with you...

Hm...ok so i'm to take from this comment that because monks have counterstance that somehow means defense sucks?

I"m finding your posts and reasons as to why everything sucks more and more difficult to follow I have to admit.

[Zagen]

Hm...ok so i'm to take from this comment that because monks have counterstance that somehow means defense sucks?

I"m finding your posts and reasons as to why everything sucks more and more difficult to follow I have to admit.

Counterstance drops a MNK's DEF to VIT/2 +1. In other words they are turning they're DEF into crap compared to PLD's DEF. That said the increase to Counter rate far out weighs the drastic loss of DEF because again DEF is useless when it comes to mitigating damage.

[Dale]

Counterstance drops a MNK's DEF to VIT/2 +1. In other words they are turning they're DEF into crap compared to PLD's DEF. That said the increase to Counter rate far out weighs the drastic loss of DEF because again DEF is useless when it comes to mitigating damage.

Sorry but i'm still lost. How does a monk using counterstance mean defense is useless when it comes to mitigating damage? We are not all monks. We don't all have counterstance. This may be your worst argument yet. This one is even worst than your Red Mage nukes suck cause Black Mage nukes are better one.

[Zagen]

Sorry but i'm still lost. How does a monk using counterstance mean defense is useless when it comes to mitigating damage? We are not all monks. We don't all have counterstance. This may be your worst argument yet. This one is even worst than your Red Mage nukes suck cause Black Mage nukes are better one.
Counterstance adds 40% Counter rate onto a MNK's 10% base. In other words an additional 40% of all melee hits from an enemy will do 0 damage. If DEF was valuable MNKs wouldn't be so willing to give it up for 40% of hits doing 0 damage.

That doesn't even account for the extra damage dealt from those counters.

[Dale]

Counterstance adds 40% Counter rate onto a MNK's 10% base. In other words an additional 40% of all melee hits from an enemy will do 0 damage. If DEF was valuable MNKs wouldn't be so willing to give it up for 40% of hits doing 0 damage.

That doesn't even account for the extra damage dealt from those counters.

Ok so let me get this straight. You are saying that because monks have an ability that let's them counter damage 40% of the time in exchange for a penality to their defense that means defense as a whole sucks and is useless?

I stand by my earlier comment...and this is the worst argument of why something sucks you have yet to produce.

Maybe if we were all monks and had the option of turning on a move that counters 40% of attacks directed at us this argument may have some merit...

Defense may not be good for monks (I woudn't know, i don't play one), but from a Paladin or Red Mage perspective, I assure you it helps a lot and isn't useless.

[Greatguardian]

He's saying Defense sucks because, no matter how high your defense gets, NMs of any worth are still going to be capping or near capping cRatio on you. And, once cRatio is capped, no additional damage is taken by having lower defense.

Nutshell: It doesn't matter if your Defense is 700 or 7, if the monster is capping cRatio then you'll take the exact same amount of damage. QED: Defense is utterly worthless unless you're actually making a significant dent in cRatio, which is quite literally impossible on the vast majority of harder NMs and not worth doing on weaker NMs that would die in a minute or two in DD gear.

Edit: Oh yeah. Counterstance reduces more damage than any non-Ochain shield ever will. Shield is an absolutely horrible method of mitigating damage and requires an Ochain to be at all useful.

[Dale]

He's saying Defense sucks because, no matter how high your defense gets, NMs of any worth are still going to be capping or near capping cRatio on you. And, once cRatio is capped, no additional damage is taken by having lower defense.

Nutshell: It doesn't matter if your Defense is 700 or 7, if the monster is capping cRatio then you'll take the exact same amount of damage. QED: Defense is utterly worthless unless you're actually making a significant dent in cRatio, which is quite literally impossible on the vast majority of harder NMs and not worth doing on weaker NMs that would die in a minute or two in DD gear.

Edit: Oh yeah. Counterstance reduces more damage than any non-Ochain shield ever will. Shield is an absolutely horrible method of mitigating damage and requires an Ochain to be at all useful.

Sorry but I find my non-ochain shield very useful, and it saves my ass all the time. As does my defense.

The logic that defense sucks because monks have counter stance and some very difficult NMs will hit you hard no matter what is retarded. I fight NMs everyday i find very worth doing and my defense and shield block deffinitely help. If i were to change into DD gear I would be the one dying in a minute or two...not the NM

Your argument is also reliant on cherry picking certain fights you deem "worthy" as the basis for your entire post. We should just end this here and agree to disagree.

You think defense and all non-ochain shields suck. I don't.

Talking with you is like talking with someone who says submarines suck in war cause you happen to be engaged in a land war currently. It's impossible to argue with and makes little sense. Yes. In some situations defense is not that useful. But that doens't mean it just sucks and is useless. This game doens't revolve around just the fights you enjoy doing or think are worthy to do.

[Greatguardian]

When did I say "Only certain super hard NMs cap cRatio on you"?

There are two kinds of NMs. NMs where cRatio is capped, and NMs that are dead in 60 seconds anyways.

The vast majority of NMs will cap cRatio on you. Especially outside Abyssea. Any perceived increase in survivability from defensive gear is purely placebo =/

[Dale]

When did I say "Only certain super hard NMs cap cRatio on you"?

There are two kinds of NMs. NMs where cRatio is capped, and NMs that are dead in 60 seconds anyways.

The vast majority of NMs will cap cRatio on you. Especially outside Abyssea. Any perceived increase in survivability from defensive gear is purely placebo =/

Ok time to get specific. Which monsters are you talking about that defense doens't help on? Let's hear this "vast majority" of monsters that defense is usless against?

[Greatguardian]

Kirin, Shijin, all outside Sea Jailers, Abyssea +2 NMs in Scars/Heroes zones, all Body seal NMs in Heroes zones, AV, PW, VNMs T3 and above inside/outside Abyssea, ZNMs T3 or above, ToAU HNM, RotZ HQ HNM, KS99 HNM, all of Voidwatch, Fomor NMs in the past, in general any NM that is or was worth a crap and/or above level 95 aside from a few notable exceptions scattered here and there with extremely low attack values.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Level_Correction_Function_and_pDIF

inb4 anecdotes about taking a bajillion less damage when stacking kaiser gear and getting instantly killed when putting on DD gear.

[Dale]

Kirin, Shijin, all outside Sea Jailers, Abyssea +2 NMs in Scars/Heroes zones, all Body seal NMs in Heroes zones, AV, PW, VNMs T3 and above inside/outside Abyssea, ZNMs T3 or above, ToAU HNM, RotZ HQ HNM, KS99 HNM, all of Voidwatch, Fomor NMs in the past, in general any NM that is or was worth a crap and/or above level 95 aside from a few notable exceptions scattered here and there with extremely low attack values.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Level_Correction_Function_and_pDIF

inb4 anecdotes about taking a bajillion less damage when stacking kaiser gear and getting instantly killed when putting on DD gear.

Ok well I will put this argument to the test. I will go fight a Body Seal NM in Abyssea tonight and comapre how much I get hit for with defense and without it :) Will be in touch and we'll see if your argument is crap or not. I strongly suspect that it is, but I'll wait till I do the test myself before I judge.

[Zagen]

Ok well I will put this argument to the test. I will go fight a Body Seal NM in Abyssea tonight and comapre how much I get hit for with defense and without it :) Will be in touch and we'll see if your argument is crap or not. I strongly suspect that it is, but I'll wait till I do the test myself before I judge.

I hope you know how to properly test things.... As in a sample size of 100 is a nice start, making sure all variables are accounted for as in -PDT on either job you use, DEF levels for each job are fixed, etc. There are a lot of variables to account for when testing and somehow I doubt you will do this.

Edit: After that test you should see how a given fight with say a MNK + WHM and a PLD + WHM takes from start to finish, how much damage is taken with each job. You'll find what everyone else has when you do this, that is that because of the kill speed and how broken defensive mechanics are currently the MNK takes less damage.

[Greatguardian]

If he knew how to test objectively with a large sample size, this wouldn't be an issue at all.

[Dale]

I hope you know how to properly test things.... As in a sample size of 100 is a nice start, making sure all variables are accounted for as in -PDT on either job you use, DEF levels for each job are fixed, etc. There are a lot of variables to account for when testing and somehow I doubt you will do this.

Edit: After that test you should see how a given fight with say a MNK + WHM and a PLD + WHM takes from start to finish, how much damage is taken with each job. You'll find what everyone else has when you do this, that is that because of the kill speed and how broken defensive mechanics are currently the MNK takes less damage.

Lol...sounds liek someone is already getting cold feet I may be fixing to prove their buddy wrong.

[Greatguardian]

Lol...sounds liek someone doesn't know how to test and was about to seriously attempt to come in here with 1-2 fights worth of potentially biased data and thinking he had a conclusion to draw.

inb4: "I did one fight with an ochain and one fight with no shield + stumbling sandals because Defense means more than the Defense stat"

[MAXWINTER]

I know rdm sub has refresh but this at pld level 99 would be welcome.