New Job Trait Suggestion: Vallation

[Ryce]

Vallation: Job Traits are always active. Allows you to protect party members by placing yourself between them and the enemy.

Base proc rate 50%. Upgradable via new merits and gear.

Basically Cover -1, but always active. Keep the PLD involved even when hate control is a problem. Maybe the proc rate is too high, but I'd like this to give PLD a serious advantage. I want DDs to WANT a PLD in the party. Even if your DD is gonna go all out and keep hate full time, the PLD in the way can reduce his damage taken by 50%.

Thoughts?

[Cliamain]

That'd be pretty sweet, or have Cover be an AOE and be usuable to the entire party. If not that or just pld Break the Hate cap bout 25 or 30%.

[Mortechai]

That actually sounds like a really creative idea although I can also see how it can be a bad one. The whole principle behind party play is for there to be balance between tank,damage dealers and healers. What seems to have been lost from the current generation of the game is balance between DD's and tanks. Theres really no longer any huge risk in a DD pulling hate on a mob seeing as any DD with good support,gear and atma setup can tank just about anything(In abyssea). What really needs to happen is a general awakening of playstyle for about 90% of the community in the form of responsible hate control and management. Alot of it is to be blamed on atma's and big number syndrome. I see it all too often wherein players get a few lucky crits here and there and get all spam happy with their damage in a quest to push themselves to go bigger and bigger. All the tools and gear for paladin to properly generate and maintain enmity are there. The community itself however has lost its way so to speak in how to allow the job to perform its role.

[Mirage]

That'd be pretty sweet, or have Cover be an AOE and be usuable to the entire party. If not that or just pld Break the Hate cap bout 25 or 30%.
You realize that means pld can never, ever lose hate no matter what he does, or anyone else in the alliance does, right? The only thing that would ever make a pld lose hate in this case would be the mob using a hate reset move.

The gimpiest gimp of a pld would be able to keep hate over any DD, no matter how strong they were.

Do you seriously think this is a good idea?

[Ordoric]

anytime you talk emnity i cant help but remebering the redneck phrase of "hold my beer whil i do this." <insert something realy stupid>(ex taruranger sidewinder colibri before voke>"raise can i have it?" fail

[Mirage]

Hey guys, pld should get Flashga!

[Yukichibi]

The same thing but allowing shield proc to reduce damage of people behind the PLD would be cool and not overpowered.
The PLD reduce the damage people behind him took, by shield blocking them.

[Ryce]

I like that Yuki. Proc rate would depend on the PLD's shield/skill, and the player with hate would still take SOME damage.

Still, I like the idea of the PLD "throwing himself in the way" to take the damage. He'll take damage, cure himself, and hopefully reclaim hate before the DD dies.

Old School "hold back or you'll get hate and die" among DDs was boring. With a tool like this and a good THF, DDs can have a good time, PLDs can be more effective, and mobs still go down quickly.

[Anais]

You realize that means pld can never, ever lose hate no matter what he does, or anyone else in the alliance does, right? The only thing that would ever make a pld lose hate in this case would be the mob using a hate reset move.

The gimpiest gimp of a pld would be able to keep hate over any DD, no matter how strong they were.

Do you seriously think this is a good idea?

Not really, lets say a monster faces drk, then pld stays in the middle, at this point monster still targets drk but "thx to this new trait" drk just receives half of dmg and the other half is directed to pld, in the case pld moves from the middle, monster keeps facing drk and the dmg gets back full to drk

[Mirage]

I wasn't referring to the cover idea, but the break hate cap idea.

[Caketime]

I am of the opinion that a Paladin should function like a walking shield, extending their defensive capabilities to their allies while providing support and functioning as the group's anchor. Abilities like Provoke made sense years ago but as the game has moved further and further away from the tank and spank formula, Paladins need to be able to utilize their shield and heavy armor in some way, even if that isn't centering attention on themselves. Being able to shove themselves in the way of incoming blows and forcing enemies to attack them instead by way of a job trait or however the devs decide to go about that would go a long way toward getting them back into the game. Hell, I know I'd be leveling mine again instead of sighing heavily each time I get a new tank piece and tossing it into storage.

[Babekeke]

I wasn't referring to the cover idea, but the break hate cap idea.

I concur. If PLD gets a higher hate cap than other jobs, it should be by just 1, not 25%. This means that if the PLD uses invincible and isn't taking any magic damage, he'll hold hate the full time, but if he/she's a gimp PLD they aren't going to hold hate forever. Hate will still bounce around every time the PLD takes some damage, but not every time each other person hits the mob. This will make the likes of slow, blind, para even more useful as well.

[Hayward]

I like this idea. The concept of tanking has gone unused/unlearned for too long and this trait would be good for the job by calling on players to be more active in defending fellow party members when hate goes crazy. Such a job trait would cause me to put aside my support for raising the enmity cap for Paladins since the job can fulfill its job more reliably.

[Glamdring]

You realize that means pld can never, ever lose hate no matter what he does, or anyone else in the alliance does, right? The only thing that would ever make a pld lose hate in this case would be the mob using a hate reset move.

The gimpiest gimp of a pld would be able to keep hate over any DD, no matter how strong they were.

Do you seriously think this is a good idea?

considering the number of DDs I constantly see lying around or zombieing things, I THINK he has a good idea. Truth be told, the only time I ever want someone othr than a tank having hate in party play is for a nin tank to have time to get shadows back up.

However, that being said that is only if your other party players are using their brains. I like penalties to players for playing stupid, but since they essentially removed the only penalty (XP loss) in any meaningful way from death what can you do? Bring on the zombies...

[Babekeke]

Truth be told, the only time I ever want someone othr than a tank having hate in party play is for a nin tank to have time to get shadows back up.

You're talking level 12-36 partties now, right?

[hiko]

considering the number of DDs I constantly see lying around or zombieing things, I THINK he has a good idea. Truth be told, the only time I ever want someone othr than a tank having hate in party play is for a nin tank to have time to get shadows back up.


there is difference between a good tank being able to keep hate most of the time and the gimpest tank keeping hate full time no matter what people do!
giving PLD a signifiant higher enmity cap will end in the second case


However, that being said that is only if your other party players are using their brains. I like penalties to players for playing stupid, but since they essentially removed the only penalty (XP loss) in any meaningful way from death what can you do? Bring on the zombies...
again giving pld higher enmity cap will allow DD to go brainlessly all out without getting hate

[Dragonlord]

again giving pld higher enmity cap will allow DD to go brainlessly all out without getting hate

I can't see how this would be a good game design. After all PD/embrava are being nerfed to increase strategy and alleviate reliance on specific abilities. We need a system where pld can absorb a significant amount of damage while DDs still being able to take damage. A raise in enmity cap wouldn't do anything for regular plds, and make aegis/ochain plds overpowered (the difference between the 2 is great enough already).

This is because plds without those shields can't mitigate the damage nearly as well. This results in rapid enmity loss. Better defensive capabilities + higher enmity cap = never lose hate. It just becomes the next one trick pony.

[Mirage]

I can't see how this would be a good game design.
It isn't, and hiko is saying that it isn't as well, so there's actually no argument here. You both (and I do too) agree that having a separate enmity cap for a single job would be terrible.

Actually, there is one point of disagreement, though. If the enmity cap is higher, there is still a chance that even a medium powered PLD can keep himself capped even when taking damage. Remember that with a higher cap, the PLD does not need to compete with other, better geared DDs, but only have to "compete" against the enmity cap that would be completely unaffected by the other party members. Even a non-ochainrelic PLD will still take significantly less damage than a DD, and as I understand it, the difference between a normal shield and ochain is smaller (but still significant) outside abyssea than it is inside.

[Dragonlord]

It isn't, and hiko is saying that it isn't as well, so there's actually no argument here. You both (and I do too) agree that having a separate enmity cap for a single job would be terrible.

as I understand it, the difference between a normal shield and ochain is smaller (but still significant) outside abyssea than it is inside.

I must have misunderstood the tone of Hiko's post, my mistake.

I don't really understand the difference between in/out of abyssea though. Inside abyssea, mobs hit for fairly low numbers, making enmity easy to maintain. I believe ochain would have a massive advantage when NMs start hitting for 400+, because those hits rapidly decrease enmity when unblocked (and enmity from curing is less valuable than decent pld melee). Therefore the ochain would have a greater superiority over other (non-relic) shields than in abyssea. In short, the more dmg being put out, the more dmg blocked and less enmity decrease.

[Kaiichi]

I've always wanted to see an Auto-Cover for saving party members within red HP. Doesn't have to be 100%, but would make for a sweet job trait.

[Teraniku]

If any of you are watching the anime Log Horizon The tank in that show has a move called Anchor Howl. It basically forces everyone to attack the tank for a set amount of time, if any player gets to the top of the hate list and the mob goes to attack, the tank gets a free backstab at it.