Retention/Taunt

[Gallys]

No, this is not another thread "give us an innate Provoke"
but rather a way to secure a portion of the accumulated enmity.
Think DNCs way to stock his TPs:

Retention: Sacrifice 10% of current enmity and store them under the form of a charge(cap 5 charges).

Taunt: the enmity stored is unleashed , consume all charge.

I find PLD quite distraught after a reset enmity move used by many (too much) NMs,
especially on long fights because DDs have accumulated a lot of enmity, and it would be a way to partially remedy this problem(so still annoying but manageable).

Make the charges go poof if the current mob dies to prevent abuse.

Thoughts?

In before bring an army of SMNs.

[Himrik]

It's an interesting idea, but i think it would be easier to just give a job trait which can resist Hate Reset.
And obviously you can't "abuse" this on another mob to gain sudden enmity.

[Zagen]

What exactly is this supposed to fix/help with when hate generation/retention isn't the problem with PLD?

Face it on easy crap there is no need for a tank who isn't a high end DD and there never was. On hard crap where PLD shines it never had issues and still doesn't.

A good PLD will know the mob does hate reset moves and be prepared for it. If its a brand new mob then nothing changes the PLD will know real quick X move has partial/full hate reset and know what to do.

[Gallys]

I didn't say there is a problem with pld , I just try to point specific situation where PLD loses control,even for a short time,
and address it.I'm pretty happy with PLD as it is.
Of course I'm talking about VW not abyssea/outside old content.

Also , when reset hate move occurs ,tell me how you grab hate back after a 10mn fight ,against an ukon war or a gandiva rng that WS'd as little as 4 times during the course of battle ,and that in less than 20seconds(serious question).
I hardly see how PLD can generate 4-5000 CE in such short time.

Now you can just bring 2 tanks and even then your highest DDs will probably hit the floor atleast once.Not like XP is hard to get anyway.

I don't know I would like an alternative that's all.That and when your at the enmity cap , the extra CE is wasted.

Thank you for reading~

[Zagen]

I didn't say there is a problem with pld , I just try to point specific situation where PLD loses control,even for a short time,
and address it.
That's part of the challenge when fighting a monster as SE sees it... just like some monsters ignore hate completely.

Don't get me wrong the idea is nice but you're wanting to solve an intended game mechanic.

[Himrik]

It's the game mechanic in Abyssea that put us out the league, then yeah, maybe it needs to solved.

At the moment, there are only two spots mandatory in a PT: DD-tank and a healer.
Almost everyone thread in this forum points towards fillinf the DD spot but i think PLD should be their own very potent healer.
I don't mean that PLD should totally replace WHM, but they should be able to self-cure with a far greater potency so that you don't really need a WHM when you have a PLD.

We should see two standards setup: Parties based on a DD+Healer backbone (Especially useful against AoE) and parties based only on PLD (For mobs without potent AoE).
The idea of enmity charges can increase the Cure Potency when PLD cast on himself and use one charge per cure cast.

[Arcon]

SE already thinks they can fix the problem with more spells and abilities without realizing it's the underlying system that's the problem. So I dread to encourage even more spells and abilities that try to work around the flawed system, instead of addressing the system itself.

[Zagen]

It's the game mechanic in Abyssea that put us out the league, then yeah, maybe it needs to solved.
I hate to break it to you but hate reset (partial and full) moves have existed before Abyssea. The crazy buffs you can get in Abyssea on the DD and mage are what pushed PLD out of Abyssea, that's also why the OP mentioned VW and not Abyssea/Old Content.



At the moment, there are only two spots mandatory in a PT: DD-tank and a healer.
Almost everyone thread in this forum points towards fillinf the DD spot but i think PLD should be their own very potent healer.
I don't mean that PLD should totally replace WHM, but they should be able to self-cure with a far greater potency so that you don't really need a WHM when you have a PLD.
.
Do hard content (Hi Voidwatch) and you'll see a need for PLD. If that isn't good enough for you, then as Arcon said look to the whole fight system because that's where you'd fix PLD for easy content but that also means potentially gimping a lot of other people


We should see two standards setup: Parties based on a DD+Healer backbone (Especially useful against AoE) and parties based only on PLD (For mobs without potent AoE).
The idea of enmity charges can increase the Cure Potency when PLD cast on himself and use one charge per cure cast.

We do have this setup already in game its call Abyssea/old crap and Void Watch.

The more cure potency or higher cure spells/abilities you give PLD the stronger potential for "overpowered" solo machine (solo tank or soloist) which SE doesn't want (I don't think they get PLD solo sucks compared to other jobs but w/e).

[Himrik]

Always the same answer: "If PLD get this - or that - it'll be way overpowered"
How come it is overpowered to deal damage like a DD when they can take hits like a PLD ?
How come it is overpowered that we have the same Atk as a WAR when a WAR can have the same defense as us ?

When i say "setup based on PLD", i mean "whitout a WHM to support it". That, we don't have. And a good solo tank is not overpowered if it takes two hours to kill something, thanks to the rage system or the time limit for a lot of fights.

And speaking of voidwatch is a sad excuse. It sounds like "These are the ten percent where you are useful, so stop complaining about the ninety other percent"

[Zagen]

Always the same answer: "If PLD get this - or that - it'll be way overpowered"
How come it is overpowered to deal damage like a DD when they can take hits like a PLD ?
How come it is overpowered that we have the same Atk as a WAR when a WAR can have the same defense as us ?

Again look at the current fight/battle system. That's where the flaw is when it comes to PLD on easy crap.

Same damage potential as a DD equates to a soloist better than RDM dot of yesteryear. Show me a WAR who can solo NMs of any value without a WHM, because I can on PLD already and I don't even have Ochain/Aegis.

As to ATK compared to DEF. First take a look at how they work... ATK actually matters. DEF doesn't on anything major. Don't believe me? Go parse damage taken by a Counterstance MNK and compare it to damage taken by a PLD/BLU with full DEF buffs on any decent NM. You'll be disappointed at how 90 DEF isn't vastly different from 999+DEF.



When i say "setup based on PLD", i mean "whitout a WHM to support it". That, we don't have. And a good solo tank is not overpowered if it takes two hours to kill something, thanks to the rage system or the time limit for a lot of fights."
I'm sorry but what setup where a PLD doesn't need a WHM isn't done better by NIN/DNC, DNC/NIN, or MNK/DNC? Those 3 jobs all do more damage while still being able to be self sufficient.

PLD can already solo NMs with rage timers if those timers didn't exist. Allowing them to deal damage comparable to WAR means they can get in under those rage timers on some of those NMs. Thus defeating the point of said timers.


And speaking of voidwatch is a sad excuse. It sounds like "These are the ten percent where you are useful, so stop complaining about the ninety other percent"

I don't disagree with you, after all the lights are the only reason PLD is even used in Voidwatch but it is thus far the best thing SE has come up with to give PLD some use without going back in and redesigning and recoding the battle system.


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Also just noticed your initial suggestion of it being a resist trait instead of abilities. That would be more appealing as while it still attempts to circumvent an intended game mechanic it wouldn't always work, thus still making the mechanic a threat.

[Himrik]

I don't really understand why "better than a RDM" is "overpowered".
If you look at these jobs in past FFs, a PLD is by far more difficult to kill.

WAR can't solo cause it can't survive alone during the time he kills the mob. PLD won't solo cause he can't kill the mob during the time he survives.

I don't pretend PLD would de godly and far better than any other setup. "Useful" should already be a grateful boost.

Rage timers do exist so PLD can't solo and won't solo even if it takes loooong time for the mob to kill it.

Problem is, a lot of people don't do Voidwatch, and as it seems, a lesser PLD won't stand a chance. By leaving PLD in a trash in all Abyssea, a lot of people don't bother gatering stuff and jut reroll an OMFGIMTHEGOD-DD.

Shame...

ATK does matter, STR, too, DEF, useless, and VIT, crap. I know there is a problem with the system. If it's too difficult to change DEF and VIT so a PLD can really shine in taking hits, give it something else to do that.